##VIDEO ID:wZyXLup4sf4## holidays and everything to everyone uh this is a regularly scheduled meeting of the fort Meers Beach local planning agency it is Tuesday December 10th 2024 it's 9:00 a.m. uh we're calling this meeting to order with all LPA members present if you would please stand for the invocation and the Pledge of Allegiance ALG to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and comment uh is there anyone here who is here to speak on anything that isn't a case a public hearing case okay we'll move on then to our first public hearing which is v202 4270 for 1741 Estero Boulevard this is a resolution of the fort Meers Beach local planning agency approving approving with conditions or denying variance 202 4270 requesting six variances from the Land Development code for for the property located at 1741 Estero Boulevard generally referred to as strap number 1946242 0.0010 in Fort Meers Beach to vary from required uh one rear setback two accessory structure structure setbacks three landscape buffer four off street parking five side street build to line and six off Street and six parking lot entrance width to allow a mixed use commercial development including retail and LOD lodging uses providing for other clarifications is necessary providing for conflicts of law scriveners errors severability and providing for an effective date this is a very yes Jan correction there's only five conditions in the description it say so Madam chair if if I may um the items on your agenda today they are quas judicial in nature um so if we could kind of go through our um formality as we am I yeah are everybody can hear me okay very good so I I want to clarify that you have one two three four items on your agenda today um and these items um such as zoning revisions uh special exceptions and variances these are all quasi judicial in nature and this is going to require that today's public hearing comply with procedural requirements that have been established in Florida law and in Our Land Development code now these quasi judicial proceedings they are less formal than proceedings before a circuit court but they are more formal than the remainder of our meeting and they're going to follow the basic standards of due process that require certain notices the application of the correct standards and your decisions to be made on competent and substantial evidence that's presented to you in either written documents or through oral testimony so your job is to evaluate the test testimony and the information for each agenda item and then draw a conclusion regarding whether the criteria in the Land Development code or in state law as may be applicable has been satisfied so pure speculation or opinion that is not based on competent facts cannot legally be considered by you in evaluating an agenda item testimony by professionals who are qualified as experts in a particular area has been considered competent evidence by Florida courts as well as testimony by neighbors and residents who have fact-based information such as minutes surveys engineering reports or testimony that is based on their personal knowledge and information an Anan unanimous a unanimous decision by you today by eligible voting members of the LPA to approve a variance shall constitute final agency action um subject to a request by anyone for an additional hearing or review of the matter by the Town Council if that request for an additional hearing is received by the town clerk uh within 10 days of your decision um testimony by professionals who are qualified as experts in a particular area has also been considered competent evidence by Florida courts oh I already said that sorry about that uh so if you intend to speak please uh keep this in mind and when you come forward please state your name clearly for the record and whether or not you've been sworn in so for purposes of efficiency um we would like to go ahead and take care of a few things for the record um first of all I need to ask the town clerk if all agenda items have been properly advertised pursuant to our code and state law um all items were noticed so in order to determine um if we have eligible LPA members I need to ask whether um any LPA member has a conflict of interest that would prohibit them from voting on uh any of these items today and if so please disclose this for the record so we can ascertain that we have a quorum present John any conflicts I do not about you Jim no conflict Jane none Doug n what's your name Don yeah Jim none I as well okay your next item is to swear in any uh Witnesses who will be providing testimony today so if there's anyone present including the applicant property owner and staff who intends to provide testimony to the LPA today if you would please stand raise your right hand and be sworn in by the town clerk this is anybody who's going to speak do you solemnly oh goe do you solemnly SW and affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth okay all parties have been sworn thank you all so Madam chair we are now at your first item I jumped the gun but I was excited to be back so all right so um the first one is a variance so if there is an unanimous vote in favor of this it will be a final decision uh any expart Jim none how about you Doug no expart Doug no ma'am James none Jim none joh John none and I have none as well okay so let's begin did you read the title I did read the title y I did it before Nancy did her show sorry are you guys able to hear me we can hear you fine Eli thank you good morning Eli planner Eli Le planner town of for Mars Beach the property is requesting six the property owners is requesting six variances for a proposed misuse commercial building in Downtown Zona District um the site is located at 1741 St Boulevard on the corner of marar Street the applicant of prop owners are present at the meeting to discuss their project and ass say Vance request um and after their presentation I will come back up to the podium to discuss the criteria for a variance and list of conditions that staff proposes you in the package it only has five conditions that's cor There is five conditions for the property but there's six various requests oh yeah five conditions six requests this understand thank you welcome thank you Eli any any questions for Eli before we go all right okay if the applicant will come forward good morning Cara Stewart for the record representing the owners of the goods um Mr Stewart before you get started have you been uh qualified as an expert before this body correct yes thank you yes I have and I have been sorning the applicant before you is asking for some very simple what we think variance requests there are some that are affect the rear property line we have a property that is on the corner of a stero and Miramar and we have a parallelogram which inhibits our abilities in a few in a few instances the first request for the for the encroachment in the rear yard code requires a 25t setback which we meet on our principal structure we are looking to have a generator installed above flood which will encroach an area approximately 1T into the allowable area one foot by maybe 2 feet it's a very minor encroachment because of that parallelogram the second request in the rear that we're looking for is the area we're going to use as our dumpster enclosure actually is attached to the building it looks like it's part of the building but that again will also encroach in a very small area with that parall parogram approximately 6 ft in one location of that not again the whole length of the dumpster enclosure will be screened from anything else because it is a solid wall part of the building the access to that dumpster will be underneath the building an additional request in the rear of that property is the code requires us to have a 15t landscape buffer and or a fence what we are proposing is to maintain the fence that it currently exists on the North properties uh property North property lines property um and what we are proposing to do is that we will take over the maintenance of that fence going forward to ensure that we have that consistent buffer at all times we will not be necessarily Landscaping as we plan to use that area for drainage um we have a letter of no objection from that property owner as well saying that they agree to that condition since they are the only ones that are affected so that takes care of the rear of the property all very minor nature the other requests deal with myamar Street we're in the downtown district as we know we have build to lines we have 5 to 10 foot build to lines we will be maintaining that along the front of the property along a stero because we want to create that inviting atmosphere we want to encourage people to be walking the streets so we will be on that property line the Miramar side however we felt it was best for the neighborhood and everyone not to build 5T to the road but to pull back our building so we're pulling it back an additional 20 ft from the 10 we're actually pulling it back on the drawing like 27.7 or 27.9 we're asking for the full 30 just because it's inches and make it clearer and easier during construction so we're pulling the building back in pulling that building back one of the other requests that are in here to try to simplify this requires a 15t landscape buffer along Mir again the bill to line prohibits that but we're moving our property line back what we're going to propose what we have proposed is to place additional Landscaping along the building to provide another softening effect to the property we will maintain the other request is to maintain our access from myar as it has always been directly into the property that's the one that we're talking about our access being 88 ft we're looking for an 80 8T access as opposed to the 25t access to allow delivery vehicles to allow oversized vehicles to have access to our property in order to help eliminate those Vehicles going down Miramar street so the access point is maintaining the parking spaces also require a variance because they are in front of the building and you can't have parking in front of the building this unfortunate piece of property would have no place to put parking that wouldn't require a variance so again that's a relatively simple request the way we are located no matter where I place parking you have you have a a frontage so the parking is along that side again to maintain the ability since we are a hardware store for larger vehicles to come in park their vehicle without the Restriction of the overhead I should mention at this time too that what this owner has requested to do and why our design is somewhat Limited is we are choosing to comply with flood by elevating our building we are in just a brief we are in a coastal a which would allow us to be at grade which might have been more encompassing to everyone however we all just saw what happened even with our dry flood proofing so we are elevating the building um taking that extra precaution which then limits some other things so we will be elevating the building to comply with flood which will give us our parking underneath the building and again limiting perhaps any oversized vehicles from accessing that area therefore those parking spaces are required that's the requests they're all relatively together but kind of make up six requests all in one so if you don't have any questions for me the owner is here if you had any questions for them let's start with you cara sure questions for Miss Stewart John anything uh no this time how about you Jim the existing uh trailers uh that they're operating on now what are the plans on are they going to stay there I know we have FEMA issues so my understanding is that they're trying to continue to operate we are we have this project has been on on in their minds for two years now they've gone through a few different approaches we've narrowed us down to trying to ask just for some variances we are extremely anxious to get moving forward um therefore we're hoping we get you know the unanimous we've already got our civil engineer lined up so to answer the question I believe the trailers are staying or whatever they have to do for FEMA at this time but we're looking to move as quickly and as expeditiously as we can does that answer the question or yeah I I guess ideally then are you saying they would stay in the temporary until this building is structured well if they're allowed to with whatever is happening with Town anything else no Jane doesn't this back up to the concrete wall the new concrete wall it we have um the code again require allows us to have a zero foot setback we've maintained a 3-ft setback to give us an ability for some maintenance and whatnot so yes the one side Line is now blocked by that concrete block wall certainly no reason to spend money on Landscaping back there because nobody would see it we're planning on having that as a drainage area what not you know perious surfaces to kind of capture it how many units will be upstairs right now right now we've we've put the plan together to take into consideration parking um and we've gone to five units um again I want to remind everyone this is not a plan development we are dealing with a zoning request for setbacks only so we took the approach very smart we took the approach that let me let me put it out there I don't want to mislead anyone with the five units we're planning on doing five units however you know things change the econom you know whatever whatever might happen so we've gone for the five to accommodate our parking we're planning on five but I am still in the downtown district smart yeah um Doug any questions from Miss store no ma'am how about you Don no questions thanks Jim no good job thank you um does gram want to come you grae come up here for a onee just come on be gentle oh I I am a big ass advocate of this guy a huge advocate of this guy I am tickled pink that you're here today I am so excited that you're here today I the last time I spoke with graham he was in the store and we had this emotional conversation about how do you move forward after all we've been through because we have been through a lot I mean you lost everything I lost everything and here we are and I'm so excited for you gr so what do you think if uh if uh the baby Jesus looks favorably down upon you today how do you what do you see your timeline being because I think not not only am I excited for you A lot of people are so how do you see um how do you see your timeline um I mean you know as long as I'm not sure how this whole process will go but I'm really hoping we can break ground you know as soon as possible maybe like February March something like that wonderful wonderful um and then the my GC says you know 9 to 12 months for the build so right possibly by the end of next year you know depending on when we can get started so that's great that's really great and as far as the trailers are concerned you know I mean I'm just kind of going through the process with FEA and what I've been told and what you know I mean what are they telling you I haven't heard anything I mean I got to notice you know that we had to be out on the 18th and whatnot and obviously I've discussed with other business owners in the same position and you know we've all been kind of just going through the procedures you know we're not trying to do anything illegal just trying to go through the process and by time if Poss possible or whatever we can do but you know if it comes down to it and I'm forced to leave then I'll leave you know it's what it is what it is but obviously I need to try to make money to build this building so I kind of need to stay there it's not going to be cheap yeah okay all right any questions for Graham i' just like to say that that is a public benefit when you say I'm going to start as soon as possible and you know hopefully be done by the end of the year that is a public benefit to this community because you're a service that we can't live without thank you thank you are you still going to have the key lime pies key Pi it's a question people ask soft Ser ice cream as well oh good for you good for you any other questions for Graham I'm happy for your family honey thank you very much congratulations thank you y um okay so uh anything else Eli you have anything you want to add in here well I'm I'm going to open the public comment too but if you want to come back up go right ahead good morning again Eli Le planner for Town former Beach um staff believe that the proposed misuse scure meets the LDC session 3487 C that sets forth the required findings and conclusions for the approval of a variance staff has determined that the proposed project is consistent with objective 1A and policy 1 A3 and the comprehensive plan in terms of contributing to a coherent frame Boulevard by bringing a commercial building close to the sidewalk meeting parking requirements and complying with flooded requirements if approved by the LPA SE suggest the following conditions of approval which is the five conditions that the stated report yes the first condition is approval of these vars does not give the applicant an undeniable right to permit approval U development of the property must comply with all applicable requirements uh of the for Beach comp plan in LDC in effect at the time of permit approval the S as specifically modified here in the second condition is property owner must ensure that they adhere to the maximum F of 1.4 um and the building does not exceed 18,37 ft on the roof the third condition is propul must screen ground level parking in manner similar to uh that presented in the various application documents and compliant with flood regulations live vines on the live Vines as screening is acceptable the fourth condition is the variance uh the variances shall only apply to the misuse structure as shown on the provided site button demolition or substantial damage to the misuse REM the variances to be n and void the last condition number five is that proper must complete visual screen that enclose all mechanical equipment to obscure the public RightWay uh from the public rway I'm sorry and from the immediate neighbors's uh property to help medicate noise um that's all the conditions you guys have any further questions for me any further questions for Eli anyone thank you very much Eli we'll open the public uh comment is there anybody here who wishes to speak on this case seeing none we'll close the public comment Nancy I have a question for you so since there are um six variances do we need to do each one individually or can there be a motion for an all-in-one activity here well it depends okay um should that motion come forward it would be based on a presumption that all the criteria has been satisfied for each one yes there could be one in there that maybe one of you believes uh does not qualify under the criteria and then that one could be pulled out but I I'm okay if you want to do them collectively okay um just to be explicit in the record okay is there anybody who has uh any issue with any of these or does would somebody like to make a motion I'll make a motion to move it forward I'll second okay what is the motion the motion the motion is to app approve variances as requested with conditions with the conditions as outlined thank you so there's a motion to approve with the conditions is set forth in the staff report and there is a second to that motion uh which would mean if there's a unanimous vote you're done uh I'm so excited for him okay is there any discussion on the motion look I'm assuming you are all on my page uh is there any discussion on the motion hearing no discussion your vote John I don I Jim I Doug I Jame I Jim I yes you're I an I I am so ey we couldn't tell oh I probably shouldn't get that excited because it's not very impartial but I'm not impartial to you Dam okay it passes unanimously and uh congratulations carara and congratulations Graham and all your family you move forward thank you very much oh that was great what a nice way to start let's just stop here okay no it's going to look great yeah all right so um that is good news for this like hardore we'll let them celebrate for a second yeah okay here we go on to the next case we're going on to the next case this is a special exception sez 202 424 for 2584 stero Boulevard okay guys you have to be have to be quiet now um Estero Beach Club condominium this is a resolution of the fort Meers Beach local planning agency another one uh approving approving with conditions or denying a special exception 20240 240 requesting a special exception for the property located at 2584 Estero Boulevard generally referred to as the Estero Beach Club condo strap number 194 624 w302 CE to allow for the replacement repair of P decks pool shell and coping cement walkways a cement footw wash station irrigation lines and a fence Lan along an existing retaining wall located partially and entirely within the environmentally critical zoning District providing for other clarifications as necessary providing for conflicts of loss scers errors separability and providing for an effective date Jason Adam chair X parte yes of course uh experte communication Jim none how about you none how about you Jane none Doug Don Doug no man none none thank Jim none I have none as well okay thank you and go ahead good morning members staff my name is Jason SMY I'm with your planning and zoning department so today as was uh mentioned just briefly there is a request before you for special exception for the rebuild and repair of certain materials and certain structures within the EC Zone uh the applicants are here today to discuss a total of approximately 4,500 square fet of materials not all of that is impervious material but as mentioned this does include their pool pool deck um foot wash stations and a few other uh imp prvious and planting areas that are wholly within wholly or partially within the EC um the applicant as I mentioned is here and uh we can the staff will go through the findings and conditions and uh to ensure that they have met the minimum requirements are there any uh questions or concerns for staff before the applicant is allowed to come up and uh have their case do anybody have any questions uh yes um so if I understand what we're saying we're not reconstructing the SE we're not reconstructing things that are prohibited to be reconstructed in the they floods e z correct yes so without the special exception they wouldn't be allowed to be constructed but that is an across the board prohibition against anything um what they're looking to replace was there uh prior to the storm some of it is things like uh walkways uh they are not repairing their seaw wall for instance but fences is anything that was destroyed by the storm okay yeah so the seaw wall is already is okay they're not they have not requested any uh anything to repair or replace the seaw wall or its cap okay thank you okay anything else all right thank you Jason two of us that's good good morning morning my name is Michael Mirad I'm on the board of the stero Beach Club um I'm thrilled on behalf of the board and on behalf of the owners and we're thrilled to be at this meeting and have this opportunity it's been a long Hall and we're very excited uh I brought Jennifer Tule who's our manager with uh soon Middleton and Cox who's been intimately involved or um intricately involved with Jason in putting together the uh the um application so you have any questions uh any questions for the applicant Jim none uh don no Don none James Jim John no questions I don't have any either your application was well put forward and very straightforward thank you very much great thank you and we look forward to getting started also thank you as soon as possible thank you we'll be excited for you too you're welcome um Jason any any followup anything else I'm not sure we should I go ahead and wait till after public uh sure if you want to that'll be fine is there any public comment on this case there is none we'll close that so go ahead so as part of the uh again Jason SMY senior planer uh as part of the special exception process there are two codes sections uh that are in consideration uh 6- 366 B3 um so this deals with the allowance for repairs within the EC Zone and uh they will be grappling with LDC section 3488 B which is the general special exception um code language as you can see in there staff believes that they have met the requirements of that code section and are in compliance with the comprehensive plan are there any other question questions for staff it doesn't look like there are any but thank you very much Jason oh uh I'm sorry one one last thing did want to mention that there are some uh recommended conditions of approval many of them are pro forma as was mentioned in the previous one including that the uh structures would need uh new special exception should they need to be reconstructed in the future uh approval of the special exception doesn't Grant the applicant undeniable right to permit approv approval uh the applicant must go and get all of their local and state and federal permits that might be relevant um and that following the process and prior to uh closing out of the process they will need to engage with the environmentalists just to make sure that the uh landscaping and lighting requirements have been met very good thank you Jason Jason just one comment I make um I'm sure staff had a lot to do with how this final product ended up coming to us it's so well done it's complete it doesn't leave anything to the guest or imagination your recommendations are clear and so is the material provided so good job to you guys and to the applicant and I hope there's about 10 or 12 more like this coming right behind you because this is how it should work it's easy as a as a personal opinion I I think I I appreciate that and that much of that needs to be directed to Sarah and to Judith uh they've done you hope you pass that along to Judith that'd be great thank I I will do that absolutely you know you all are a whole marvelous package so thank you they are they are thank you okay any uh any conversation on this or if not would somebody like to make make a motion to approve special except exception scz 2024 0240 um with the staff um criteria recommendations included second there's a motion and a second for approval is there any discussion on the motion uh hearing none your vot Jim hi how about you Don hi Doug hi Jane hi Jim yes John hi Merry Christmas I congratulations that passes unanimously and that's a final decision vote 10 days no it's a special exception it goes to council it has to go Council sorry Merry Christmas anywhere you enjoy the counil they're lovely people let us know if you need help with those guys yeah thank you thank you thank you all right next item sez 202 4186 1479 Estero Boulevard Theon this is a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions or denying a special exception which will go to the Town Council sez 20248 six for use of an existing lot to provide 43 commercial parking spaces in the downtown zoning District of the town of Fort Meers Beach Land Development code for property located at 1479 Estero Boulevard providing for scrier errors severability and an effective date okay X parte yes thank you um John none Jim none Jane none Doug none Don none Jim none I have none thank you Jason hello again it's been so long uh my name is Jason small I'm senior planner with your planning and zoning department um I would like to just uh point out that before you are actually two requests um and staff just wants to make sure that we understand that they uh for the most part are attached together uh their first request is for the special exception that is to open up the allowance for uh the applic to actually do commercial parking I.E charge for parking for uh people that are not using their services um the second request is a package of variances that is in response to staff's um rundown of the requirements of that special exception request so when we talk about it um it's not to say that the special exception is not possible without the variances but the applicant has requested those variances in response resp to staff's request to bring some of these things into compliance so again before you today is uh the initial special exception this is uh according to the previously approved ldo I believe was from 2022 there was 43 parking spaces on site to serve a 25 unit Hotel uh this is an extension of the Lan Kai proper this is 1479 so this is that structure uh on the north side of a stero uh the applicant has requested that they would like to apply all 43 possible parking spaces U for the allowance of commercial parking I.E to be able to rent them out on a day-to-day basis um the is it if if I may is it U should I be talking about the variance along with this is that so generally um and we'll talk about this a little bit more when we go over your procedural rules but generally it staffs uh at this point in the in the proceeding staff is giving you an overview or an introduction and the burden is with the applicant to show you that a change needs to be made uh either to their property or to existing uh zoning so the burden shifts to the applicant to come forward and then staff will come and provide you with additional information what has happened I think over the years is sometimes applicants don't come to the hearing and then staff just carries the ball so then staff has present presented um initially and then just kind of keeps going with it and then the applicant comes up so we're trying to um make that change if you haven't already noticed that yes but are what are you asking about the fact that there's two cases here yes I just wanted to know if it for if I should go ahead and talk about them together or if we should just go ahead and talk about the special introduction and I think that the applicant has representation today um and then allow them to do their presentation and then you could come back so deal with the special exception and then deal with the variance requests yes okay yes so so the introduction is that there that there are two yes there are two so we'll deal exclusively with the special exception um so the the special exception stands on its own they're requesting the ability to go ahead and utilize all 43 parking spaces um we'll talk about the variance once we get to that okay um are there questions concerns right at the top here before the applicant has a chance Jim um as it relates to the existing use of the of this particular parcel staff's position is you don't know what it's been used for we're fairly confident that it is an an Annex if you will it's an it's additional um Hotel uh units this was expressed to us before the storm and that's the story we've heard afterwards so staff doesn't have any reason to believe that they aren't capable of being hotel and motel units we cannot confirm if they are currently being used as such so by extension then if everything gets turned down today and they continue to use them what they're using it for how does Staff feel about that I don't know that we have a feeling about it but if they're allowed to do that well they would uh they would ostensibly need to go through the noov process that they were involved with and I assume that the magistrate would have some requirements at that point that's a good answer thank you Doug did you have something yeah I have a question so um the the first the special exception is for 43 parking lots or parking spaces I mean and but then when we get into the variances like there's some concerns about landscape buffers and stuff like that that may reduce the number if if we don't Grant the variances they may not be able to have 43 parking spaces so how do we decouple that issue is it if we approve the special exception that yeah we're we're okay with them having commercial parking period the number of spaces uh to be determined well the number of if let me see if I can decouple this in my Mo mind if you if you take the special exception on its own merits ostensibly they you would be if approved you would be approving the use of what is currently 43 parking spaces now the staff has done the review and we believe that the uh 25 units themselves require in our code 30 parking spaces which means that they have 13 overhead the next step for the applicant is to argue the variance which we haven't gotten to yet which they're requesting then to wipe that 100% uh wipe of the parking requirements so if only the special exception were approved today ostensibly they would be eligible for only 13 parking spaces on the site okay so if the special exceptions approved they have to they have to set aside 25 parking spaces for the 30 parking spaces for the hotel unless they can show us that they have abandoned that use there which brings up other questions which they haven't and it sorry but that would be the maximum but then when we got to the get to the variances if we find that 43 spaces total is too many for that space because they don't have the proper landscape buffers and so forth then that's a different subject I I think that is a different subject and I take your point that may not be found out until the ldo or do stage once rubber meets the road and we we look at the dimensions but the way that it was laid out in the way that it was approved in 2022 for the ldo um we're fairly confident that the diens of the spaces are correct at that time uh it was approved with the existing Drive aisle widths and I think I mentioned that in the in the staff report for for the variances there is special exception doesn't guarantee them 43 spaces no it's just the use the special exception just opens up the ability to do the use in general for commercial par correct okay so if we granted the 47 they would have no use for that building because they would um not have any parking um so if you granted all 43 to be used for short-term parking yes on that site itself it would be non-compliant now there is a question and I think this is a wider discussion that staff has had with the applicant perhaps it's best to look holistically at all of their parking spaces or all of their parking lots yes come up with a total number of of uh rentable units total number of parking spaces and that'll give us a total avail able overhead for them to use across all three parking space all three parking lots um I would say that that to staff is more holistic and that might address some of the ideas of well how many parking spaces are on 1479 and how many are available at 1400 proper uh but that wasn't really the scope of what we were doing today uh I believe the applicant when they come up here we briefly discussed that and they would be open to doing something like that looking at it in totality maybe this may be is it premature for me to make a motion to table this uh yes is it is premature isn't it well we haven't heard from anything from the applicant from the applicant yet and they do have um a representative present so we should hear from them absolutely okay anything else for Jason for the moment no okay thank you Jason Bob yes thank you welcome happy holidays to all of you merry Christmas happy holidays to you okay let's where to start Lani Kai has three pieces of property 1400 is the say your name for the record oh Robert barant attorney for the record and with me is Kenny conadis the owner's Representative Bob couldn't make it today but he's alive and well oh I'm happy to hear that yeah uh so anyway there's three pieces of parcels the main Hotel the parking lot across the street which is already properly zoned for open parking and then the hotel across the street on the Bayside we're going to call that Bayside hotel and that's the property in question everything as far as I know that property's been open to public parking since I've been on the beach in the mid 80s um and we got a call from code enforcement though and they told us that the sign out front that says open parking is a violation because it's not been zoned for a open parking lot I'm going to refer to as an open parking lot for lack of a better term met with code enforcement met with Frank what do you want us to do well we'd like you to go ahead and and get this opened up is so for public parking not just for the hotel but for public parking under a special exception we said we'd be willing to do that but we don't want to mess with the configuration of the parking lot because that's already been approved by the town and we don't want to mess with the vegetation we don't want to lose any parking spots he said fine the only thing we want is we want to maintain that one lane that that's that comes off that back street and I forget the name of the back street um Santos comes off the back street and through the parking lot apparently that's the only way for a fire truck to get back through there and get out we said fine we don't want to mess with the parking lot we want to leave the parking lot exactly the way it is so essentially we're here for a special exemption with variances that will allow the lonai to continue to operate that parking lot the way it is the way it's been for the last I don't know 40 years or so um without additional expense and if you go down there and look you'll see that there's their parking lot here there's an enormous parking lot is here and then there other Hotel parking lot is here so and it all looks the same now I agree it'd be nice to have Palm Trees and Landscaping and grass and sculpture and a fountain and all that but let's face it that doesn't last on this beach very long the Lani Kai spent Millions after the storms uh redoing the hotel redoing the parking lots redoing everything and honestly it looks like a parking lot area I'm afraid we can't can't put lipstick on a you know they all saying so uh we'd like to continue to operate the way they've been operating now let me tell you how this operates the hotel has 25 units over there uh they said there's 45 43 total parking spots so technically this is a shared parking area and technically under the code 342011 if you have more more than 10 extra spots you're allowed to rent them out you don't need a special exception they wanted to follow the advice of the town and the and Frank and and be good good partners so they went ahead and applied for this special exception in any event that hotel is those rooms are less desirable because they're not on the beach all the other rooms look at the Gulf of Mexico so these are backup hotel rooms what happens is when these when the hotel is full then they start booking these rooms they have a guy that stands out there they call the guy up and they say this is how many people are leaving this is how many people are coming this is how many spots we need so we have a Hands-On person there to dictate how many spots that hotel will need maybe it needs zero for one week maybe it needs all 25 but they don't rent outside to outside people unless they have enough spaces there unless they fulfilled their the phone call so I know the codee's written cuz it's on an average and I know that normally when you write codes you don't take into contemplation that there's going to be a Hands-On person there regulating how many people are in the parking area or how many spots you need but in this case that's what happens so they just want to make the town happy get the special exception leave the parking lot the way it is operate the way it's been we had some discussions today with with staff about getting together with the other lots and trying to come up with some kind of design I guess there's a complaint that some people just travel through norms and go into their parking lot um and we can address all those issues we'd be happy to address those and work with town and with norm and and the guy across the street who's apparently now just got an empty field um but but but I don't think it's fair to come down on the Lanai at this point and and again if we we were told that if we just go back to running to Hotel patrons that we're not in violation of any codes we wanted to do the right thing because in all honesty occasionally somebody does come in there and want to park there and go someplace else they would prefer that when people park there they go to the hotel and use their facilities but I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that no we haven't accepted open parking because they have we've restricted that since we got the the letter on the code and we've gone back to only Lon Kai patrons only to come into compliance so that's what they're asking for just to be basically continue business as as it has been and that's what all these special exceptions address not reconfiguring the parking lot not Landscaping the parking lot just continuing the way it is and the way it has been so Kenny's here if you have any questions that I have haven't been able to answer for let's see if anybody has any anybody have any questions for for Mr barand so is the applicant willing to add a condition that would summarize what you've just stated as far as procuring places for anyone that's in the 25 unit absolutely absolutely we we don't when you rent a room out you have to give them a place to park so you know that would be like cutting off our noses by her face we want people to park there we're trying to help the town too I mean yeah it's a motivation to get 20 bucks or 10 bucks or some you park there but it's also motivation for the city to get these cars off the road I realize there's a lot more places to park now with all these empty lots but they're not parking there legally so once the Town gets built back up you're going to need you know you're going to need more parking spots as a matter of fact we've talked about it his dad and I talked about even build trying to build a parking garage down there to get to get alleviate the parking situation and get and I think at one time he we even came to council and asked to co-partner with Council I that was several years ago but anyway parking is needed down there it's in a special district so I think we have some special considerations at least I hope we do um and I'd ask that they continue to continue to business the way they've been doing business and has there been any I guess commitment to work with the staff on the overall parking for all three parcels and then you know reflecting all of the rooms on both the Bayside and the Gulf side yes and and I and I understand the math that may get us more than just using the 13 spaces that may get us more math I I don't know I haven't done the math with 100 rooms over here and 25 rooms over here I can't tell you off the top of my head how many total parking spots there are but that might help us is par me that may help us if we knew that there was sufficient parking you know on one of the three Parcels to for all of the 125 rooms which we don't have that piece of information be foolish not to provide and leave open a number of spaces for the hotel guess that we know are coming in I mean that that's just bad business and the Lani Kai has been in business for what 50 years now and parking has never been an issue they have they have staff at each parking lot they have communication from the front desk to staff as to how many people are coming in that day how many parking spots are needed sometimes you might need a 100 spots on another given day you may only need 20 spots but this is always communicated so in the overall scheme of things you know I don't know that it really matters because it it's going to regulate itself so to have these spots they're never going to rent out to the open public if they can help it but if somebody pulls in on a hot day and it's and the traffic's backing up and you just pull somebody in and say you get take your 10 bucks and they park there we don't want to be in we don't want to be in violation with somebody saying wait a minute that person walked over to to this place and not to Lon Kai I mean we can put a sign up that says Lon Kai patrons only but that doesn't mean people people are going to honor that sign but in in respect to your question yes there's adequate parking for the hotel there always has been that's never been an issue in fact before the storm they had a lousine that used to transport people to to try and cut down on traffic um so trying to just help by having the parking lot available but yes we would you know we're willing to talk I think I like the idea getting together with the all three parcels and doing something you know to help each you identify and get them off the road that would be great but that's not part of our proposal for today so let me just summarize from my mind first of all my personal belief is parking is your problem not ours I know there's difference of opinions on that but you got to figure that out as a as a business so what we're really talking about is you're operating without approval but you're operating exactly today as you will tomorrow if we approve this is that correct I think we're operating correctly under 342011 yeah but we're trying to accom at the Town by coming in for an special exception under 3420 N9 for the requirement for the buffering the Landscaping the things that come with the normal approval for using that lot in that fashion that's what we're trying to get away that's the thing we're really talking about today yeah that's what we're trying to exactly just didn't want to have it more complicated than that no no you're exactly right we want to continue to operate the way we've been operating we you know $7,600 to be here today we're trying to work with the town and say we want to be a good partner we don't think we need to do this but if this makes you happy and if this gets somebody else that's complained off your back or whatever then you know we're happy to accommodate you but we don't want to they don't want to spend another million dollars landscaping and redoing the configuration of the parking lots that because they then they've got to go back because they have an ldo so I don't know what we do if we change it do we got to go back to the town and then change that okay any other questions for Mr barant thank you Bob appreciate it you want any questions for the applicant any questions for Mr con hi I'm Ken conadis and uh you know my parents built this stuff over 40 years ago and basically we stopped parking across the street as soon as we got a letter saying it wasn't supposed to be we've been putting all our employees over there so that's where they're parking for free okay so that we have not collected one dime across the street since we've gotten this notice now basically how we're doing it is is we're trying to go ahead and go the extra effort and comply with whatever the the beach wants us to do you know since since I basically come into play I've had an open door policy that anything that we can work with you guys we've done I mean I I don't know if you've seen a difference in the hotel even prior to the storm but we we've put a lot of money and and a lot of effort into not staying open till 2 in the morning we've been closing at midnight because we didn't want the Riff raft we've been going ahead and priding ourselves well I'm just saying we've been trying to really kick back on doing stuff you know to to put a little pride back into the beach and so all I'm trying to say is if you look at what we have we have palm trees we have a lot of stuff that is existing and we've put money into landscaping and you know what all that Landscaping have blasted out already from the last two storms which were 200 miles away so we've reput in landscaping again just recently so this is the second time since hurricane Ian you know so all I'm trying to say is is you know cut us a break and and and realize that we're trying to work with you instead of going ahead and doing stuff outside of you thank you Ken any questions for Mr conad I do um do you have parking set aside for all of the restaurants and the catering facility yes every day what we do is is we we have our parking lot of Tenants come in the front desk and and our our thing is is we figure out how many people are in House how many people are leaving and how many people are arriving if we have a party we we set aside all that stuff because all that stuff is is first priority then the aftermath is what we pay for parking now to tell you the honest truth like he said this is only for like 13 extra spots but you know with Ubers and everything else you have to to think about not everybody comes in with a car so we go ahead and we just try to calculate we've tried to make sure everything was legal because I'm like okay so if we have 25 spots automatically but they're not taking 25 spots well then maybe there'll be 15 instead of 13 you know so that's the only reason why we're here but we'll always put our customers first because of the fact if we don't have parking for them they're not going to stay you know I me you know I mean we always have to do that so so all I'm trying to say is we're basically here and trying to go we work with Primo I mean you know you know I can call Chris right now and you know anything all the people around us I work with you know believe me I want to have a good relationship with everybody and and I even told Jason uh you know you can come and we'll we'll walk the property and if they have suggestions we we'll deal with them I have no problem with that okay thank you very much appreciate it Madam chair may I just add a comment um I will let you know that code um has been looking at some of the uses for for parking along that area of um Estero Boulevard so you may see some other uh cases come before you for special exceptions for the same reason I think um you know if you're going to go after someone you need to go after everybody everybody needs to be in compliance thank you Nancy Jason you have any followup thank you Jason small L Planning and Zoning uh I'd just like to briefly wrap this up for my portion here and just uh go through the special exception findings and just have those on the record um so the staff has has gone through the um the six listed requirements and we believe that uh for the most part the special exception is within reason it's been um it's been presented Elsewhere on the island but the not putting in the extra work not doing the Landscaping not taking care of any of the internal parking that's what staff is responding to in these findings to to state that the special exception is not warranted without the additional work so if you if you take a look at our recommendation we've recommended Denial on this specific issue um and our our explanation of this and where it doesn't doesn't meet the code and the and the comprehensive plan are in that are in that analysis um but at at this point without the additional work on their staff doesn't believe that it's it's correct to approve the special exception um kind of as a single as a single ask staff believes it needs to come along with the the agreements for the variances so how do you connect the two if you approve the first one and don't um and deny the second one then what have you done you've effectively allowed them to utilize 13 spaces on that site for commercial parking without taking into account any of the other uses that's going on there I think my I'm I'm a I'm yeah I'm I'm not opposed to the uh commercial parking in fact I see it a benefit for the town if there's extra space there let's you know utilize it and if they charge for it that's fine uh but you know parking is at a premium in general what your feeling about but um I think we need to table this because I don't think we can decouple the two issues isues because I'm not well I I'm okay with this exception to have commercial parking I'm not okay with all these variances but and they said we need to see a complete plan because I don't know what we're what we're getting just so I'm clear the only what Jim said the only variance here is that we're not it's a landscaping right I mean that's the only thing that we're saying if we allow commercial parking for 13 spaces or whatever the spaces is all all we're saying is the non-compliance is because we don't have landscape buffers and trees correct am I missing something there there are multiple issues on the site that could theoretically be resolved it's not just the landscaping and remember the special exception itself doesn't necessarily call for the Landscaping it's other sections of the code which they are then asking for variances from those particular code sections so you as I said to Mr emman you the ically could approve the special exception it would be the site as you see it today its use would continue as of today they would just on paper only have access to 13 parking spaces on 1479 in particular the more the more important or cumbersome portion are the variances that follow I believe so yeah so the special exception is just like a blanket okay keep doing what you're doing but the details are in in the second part of the hearing so Doug to that point I don't know that there's any benefit to table or or continue the special exception hearing uh I mean this is I I don't hear any major objections to the special exception I hear concerns about the variances so if we could just stay focused on the special exception uh I think that would be helpful and then we'll get into the variances in the next section and see if we can uh flush out the details and Madam chair I think I think that's important back to the counselor's recommendation is these special exceptions are important to us for consistency any litigation or follow through so more proactive we can be in getting that on the record and deal with the others in my mind is is the appropriate sequence I agree with that too Jim any Jen yeah I have a question for the applicant if the special exception was to be approved the staff has seven uh conditions that they would like to condition the special exception on have you looked at those conditions and are they acceptable I'm smiling because yes I looked at them do I recall them no but I do remember saying that new special excepts must be applied for each time an ldo Doo is applied for any structures are developed reconstructed I think that's standard language so I assume that would be okay I missed one uh the applicant must apply for and receive all state and local permits required for the Recon we're not doing any reconstruction so that I don't have a problem with it because there's no permits required any violation huh sensibly cover lighting that has what that would that that would cover Lighting in this scenario which is mentioned in the variant just making sure that state permits are obain if necessary to the best of my knowledge there's no plan to change any of the lighting but obviously if that was the case you'd have to Pro get the permits and provide for them property owner should have plan to engage with customers of a commercial of not less than 40 Fe yeah see that that I don't know how that's he wants us to put the entrance back 40t into the property no I don't know if we can do that without losing space no if I may yeah um so to that to that point it's just a matter of the person that's on site that would be engaging with the customer if they came onto the site would be 40t back from your front property line you wouldn't be losing any parking spaces it's just a matter of we want that first Contact and that first place where people are going to stop off the road the RO off the road they one thing we can make this real simple all he has to do is meet with me show me what needs to be done we'll do it I'm I'm very easy to work with Ken we we we know that but it has to be on the record no I know and I'm just letting you know just come but that's that's good to know that's good to know again in all my years down here which is 5060 years I I've never personally seen a backup that was caused by people pulling in and out of any of those parking lots oh come on no I mean the backup is there an it's there you just you don't want to go down that just don't get in that turn lane I tell you how many times could you look at the next one the uh the drive FES I think that one actually might I don't know you know you got to be patient when you come to the beach especially that area if anybody that's in a rush that'll be a new thing on your side that's why I move to the North End down there it's nice and peaceful I don't have to deal with the backup anyway TW Way Drive aisles must meet I don't know if we can if they're again we're not willing to do anything that's going to lose any parking spots so in answer to to question if this doesn't lose any parking spots we're we're fine with it but but says an applicant must obtain an approved lighting plan as an outlined and again I I didn't we didn't have any plans to do any additional lighting I think there's adequate lighting there has anybody check point is these are conditions these are conditions of approval not willing to do it then you can't do it so it's not like we don't want to do anything we want to keep it just as it is that's not an option these are conditions of approval and if you aren't inre agement to do them then take away the ask I got to ask hold on hold on hold on hold on Judith sorry we we added that condition in there about the the fire department approval it's not really optional it has to be approved by the fire department um in any condition that's everywhere anywhere right so we we added in there just for clarity purposes that this is going to be passed by the fire department it has not yet and if the fire department has any issues that changes they're going to win that conversation right we keep that lane open that was the only thing they wanted but remember there was in 2020 I think an ldo was applied for so I'm assuming that was approved by the council and by the fire department but I could be wrong okay so yes and answer your question the boss says he'll take take whatever the conditions are great perfect there's seven uh thank you Bob welcome okay uh any other discussion on this I'll open the public comment is there any public comment oh masses okay there's none J anything final no I believe I believe I went over thank you very much thank you all any conversation any discussion on this and if not may I have a motion I make a motion to approve special exception SZ 202 40186 uh for approval with the seven conditions uh set forth by the staff second thank you Jim thank you Jim any discussion on the motion hearing no discussion your uh your vote Jim yes Jim hi Don hi Doug Nate Jane hi John hi and I am a yes that is 621 in favor of the special exception that will move on to the Town Council um we'll move on to the next item which is the variance request and that's v224 233 at 1479 Estero Boulevard Delani Kai a resolution of the fort Meers Beach local planning agency approving approving with conditions or denying a variance 202 4233 requesting four variances from the Land Development code for the property located at 1479 Estero Boulevard generally referred to as the Lanikai strap number 19464 w460 B 0070 in Fort Meers beach one waving the required parking for the 25 unit Hotel requirements for two parking lot configuration three Landscaping requirements and four driveway width reductions for entrances on the stero Boulevard providing for other clarifications as necessary providing for conflicts of law scrier errors separability and providing for an effective dat uh is there any uh any exp parte on this John no Jim no Jane no Doug no ma'am Doug Jim no okay I have none as well Jason Jason smly planning and zoning department uh so as we briefly mentioned before this is the companion with to the previously discussed special exception uh the applicant has requested uh four specific uh Varian or four variances to specific sections but it encompasses uh quite a few things on the site I'm going to briefly go through those uh the first one again is to remove any of the parking requirements associated with the 25 unit Hotel um they are asking for a um a variance for lighting uh within pedestrian and and vehicle areas so those require have they have uh different standards and in General on a new parking lot you would be required to provide uh a taller light for Drive areas and a slightly shorter light for those areas deemed to be pedestrian uh they are requiring or they are also requesting some changes to the internal um movement on the site in general the code calls for uh anywhere that has a a final um has a a final dead end if you will at the end of a parking lot to account for turnaround area and for two uh cars to be able to to back out safely uh this would also uh Encompass things like uh additional drainage up and above what currently exists on the site uh the Landscaping uh they are also requesting a variance to the drive width uh this is a fairly minor issue but this was uh the code limits the drive um the driveway widths along a stero to no more than 25 ft I believe this also came up in the previous um variance package for the goods so they're requesting that U according to our staff analysis one of the entrance ways is approximately 30 ft wide so that's what triggered this one but uh relatively minor in in the other asks um and then lastly uh this was the issue of the drive AIS widths the applicant previously stated that they were approved for an for an ldo uh at the ldo phase you you're if you're doing a um reeal and restripe generally it doesn't require a a radical change of the site it's really meant to just kind of keep what was there and and keep it uh active and usable but now during the special exception process this is when these things would uh generally be required to be provided on the site so they're asking for a deviation or excuse me a variance to the Lane widths which is in our code at 22 feet um with that said I believe the fire department does have a little bit of legal room uh dependent on where their fire plug is and what apparatus they intend to use so ultimately our Point here is that any approvals today would still run up against fire department and the fire department could allow them um to use the current 20 foot wide or they could request that they provide the full 22 foot width and at that point it may be necessary to reassess whether those parking spaces that are affected by that uh will continue to be compliant but at today's state we do not know until they've actually gone through a fire review which would be a couple steps after this if approved okay questions for Jason on the first round through here thank you Jason Mr barant Money Money Money spending more money money's not there folks you know Ian Helen Milton took care of that um we've got an ldo the FY Department approved it I promis Frank that we would keep that drive fire lane through there what they're asking us to do now is going to break my promise because we can't configure it and keep that lane there we're going to lose space um I don't know what else to say I mean the parking lot's been there it's operating I don't have a problem with moving the guy Back 40 feet Bob hold on are you referring to number four I'm referring to all of them because the reconfiguration of the parking lot is it just can't happen it's it's just more money drainage we're talking about lighting we're talking about I mean how much how much weight can you put on these businesses I mean they they survived three storms and now we want to reconfigure this and reconfigure that this has worked I mean why fix what's not broken there's nothing wrong with the way the parking lot is engineered now the width of the driveway's been that way if you want us to move the the guy Back 40 ft I don't have a problem with that that but the rest of the stuff that involves spending money reconfiguration drainage Landscaping um I think that I don't think any of that is necessary and that's just me speaking but um again the trony come compliance and all of a sudden we're throwing this monkey on their back to do all these these do all these things and we said from the very beginning when I met with code enforcement I met with Frank we're not willing to spend that kind of money and reconfiguration I told him right up front oh no no don't worry about huh why are you you're asking for this then because they want to be good stewards they want to be good citizens my recommendation was not to because I don't think I think they're in compliance with the code under but but just to be on the safe side they wanted to make sure that they didn't have any problems or issues with people pointing the finger at him and saying oh there's the lon Kai again operating illegally uh so they they we had a meeting we sat down and we discussed all this and we pretty much were assured don't worry about it it's just you know it's it's just a matter of routine I said okay I should have known better but uh so no we're not willing to to do all stuff I mean we don't even know what all this stuff is going to cost can I ask question that's like opening your checkbook up if they want new drainage I hold hold on one second John may ask a question so there's a um the letter from the town November 10th 2023 talks about restriping the parking lot and in that letter there is some some reconfiguration of the parking lot there's some parallel parking that's been moved Etc is is this the plan that we would be approving yes the plan that was previously approved by the town under the ldo is the plan that we want to keep in effect which includes removing the parallel parking to accommodate a wide enough Drive is that whatever it said in 2023 I mean restriping no that's not a big deal I don't think they have a problem doing that but when we start putting in new I don't even know why they need new drainage but uh I'm not I just don't want to open that door to say that we you know when we go to get the permit then we got to do all these things and it's going to be million dollars it's money's you know it's not there was your question answered John I believe so in that the design we I've heard two conflicting things one was one was was that we're going to keep it exactly as it was and continue the use Etc however a previously approved for the restriping of the parking lot said there was going to be some reconfiguration it's already been done so that's been completed K Ken Ken hold on hold on yeah that's was going to be my response this my knowledge that was already done but if want to hear Ken come on come on up just so you're you're on the record yeah 10 kind of and it it was already done we already restriped we already re had that done it's already been applied you know yeah so it would be putting it to those conditions what's already what's already there thing already yeah you've clarified it for yeah I I feel like the conditions are already potentially met or at least what I'm hearing from Ken so I'm just trying to figure out why the money money money you know like I it doesn't sound like the lighting is already in compliance I think I think if I remember right it's Turtle compliant lights the lighting yes we we deal with Chad with the lighting a lot so whatever and that's what I'm trying to say it's it's minor things are easy you know you we need to put a palm tree or two you know what I mean but I just we but like Bob saying though we just to go from 20 feet to 22 feet or the rec configurate the whole thing that that you know we can't do but we can go ahead and have him come down and be with me and say okay I want a light here or a light there that's easy yeah the point is is if you're in compliance with an ldo and you've already restriped and you have lighting then you're not going to do anything you're not changing anything else I I think it what do you agree with this Jason so I take your point but I am I on here hello hello no not that looking with their phone um so I don't think it's correct to say that they are in compliance with lighting standards uh because the lighting standards in today's code if we were to apply it letter of the law as I mentioned before requires much more lighting than they have it's going to require lighting of different heights um for most of this area I don't believe much of it is actually pedestrian area so I would I would U they would have to have 15 foot light poles on that site and so they would have to have some number of that and a photometric analysis would tell us how many light fixtures would be necessary to cover that entire lot so under under the ldo they effectively had a a non-compliance site but it was an existing non-compliance site and the the reeal and restripe is is something that's meant to bring the site up to the greatest extent possible and I'm assuming at that time when that review was done it was it the site is what it is they're just coming in for something fairly di Minimus under a reeal and restripe we're not going to ask them to completely redesign the site during this process oh Lord so I got sorry I got one followup question so so so are they in compliance with with the that's the question well are they in compliance for what the use was before the storm and through the ldo that's my I don't think we know what the use was uh on paper the use was just for for their own 25 person or 25 unit Hotel okay I don't think it was but but I'll accept that um so if we you're what you're saying is is if we Grant if if we allow them to do what sort of they're doing they're going to need new lighting because they're going to meet new requirements in other words if you ask me to be compliant then I'm going to ask you to do new light polls and okay do full full Landscaping it probably has a redesign turnaround areas yes okay um so is code Code Enforcement could could the owner come back up for a second is Code Enforcement come to your property and indicated you need to come in compliance with these four or five things or they're saying Get this formally documented the way you're operating today what what have you been told no no that's everything we've stayed compliant as a matter of fact we've met with Chad multiple times because of the fact when when it used to be there was things blacking the view of the turtles and they're gone now so now that that is just all beach now and so the ter so so Chad asks us okay do this and we've done it so everything you know in and like I tell him you know you if you come down and you say okay maybe I need to do this within reason you know what Bob saying yes we'll do it I have no problem but I don't know about like 15 ft holes and all this stuff I mean you know obviously CU then Chad might have a problem you know I mean that's that's that's that's that's all fine and well what I what am I missing I don't know why we have this I don't either I don't either document for the council right Judith frinkle um just to explain a little bit about the process so um because we were told that there was no previous special exception or agreement for the commercial parking lot use so they've applied for the special exception we're treating it as something new I know that they've stated that that's on paper what we have on records this is a new use so when something new comes in we ask it to meet current code and so that's why you're seeing all of these variances they they had the parking lot they had the hotel none of that is changing and what they're they're saying that they they had an approval um uh we don't have a record of that so we're treating this as something new um in terms of lighting there's two different lighting requirements here so there's a turtle but then there's general for a parking lot so and that's for safety and that's why you're seeing those so they are um they do not have the lighting that if they were coming in for something new which is how we're treating this because that's how it is on paper they would be required to put in you know the light poles for for visibility at night and those kinds of things and that's why you're seeing the variance request I think that that perhaps that there was some uh understanding or miscommunication um when they came in for the special exception um the special exception for the commercial parking lot is not that big of a deal but now because we're treating it as something new then we staff went and we reviewed the code okay so does it meet all of these things that we've requireed for parking and the answer was no so Judith and dealing with them is it is it your belief they thought they were just papering as for the town's request what currently exists did you inform him that this is a over this is a whole d i and I don't think Jason was a part of that initial meeting and as Nancy has stated there's been this um kind of push to get everybody into compliance with these commercial parking lots kind of across the board um so I don't know exactly what was explained to them in that process but that should because applying for a special exception it it starts the things so the that's why you have the all of those um uh variance requests there to go with with with no disrespect me and you all know that nothing this is no oh you guys uh but if if what Nancy said that this is going to be an across theboard uh compliance action for all of these lots that are coming in sorry Jane uh then they all need to be treated equally whether they existed for 50 years or whether they're brand new they need to be treated equally and I think everyone would probably agree with that but except can I add it it has to be on a caseby Case basis however because the facts may be different although there's a concern ownership too well yeah and there's if there's a concern that we have some unpermitted uses going on on a stero but each one is different will have different lighting we'll have you know trying to bring them into compliance just seemed like a sad day to me to put preexisting high-end operators totally good attitudes and compliant with the town through this process the ones we deal with are the ones we should be dealing with this just seems arbitrary and unnecessary in a lot of ways so I I feel bad that we're putting them through it but I understand why staff did so I understand the process I understand the process completely but it just seems like uh they're they are here asking for variances that they are not willing to AC to accommodate so is there a grandfather why is there why is the request being made that I guess that's where I'm finding the big glitch if this is an application from the like the is basically giving them to do what they did right I mean we did that I don't understand part right yeah that should be the end of it if I if I may look the they didn't want to just have 13 parking spaces which the special exception would leave them with and that's really what triggered this when we're looking at it holistically yes we have to look at the Landscaping the the things that should be applied to everybody else but that was the reason that I put the previous approval for Norms parking lot in there I wanted to give you an example of previous administrations had done that had asked of Norm for instance to do the Landscaping do a a you know stand fence storm water plan I'm not saying that we need to completely copy what was done there and quite honestly that stuff is now out of date you know 15 20 years later I was just providing the fact that 've done it before um this is an adjacent lot perhaps we either need to look holistically which would probably involve code changes or we need to look at what was approved before and make a decision about is that still relevant today I'd like to or we can just approve these variances I'd like to has there been any attempt to get Norm to comply with the plan that was approved Norm Norm Norm's parking lot yeah you have Norms approval in there there's a concept plan no that's the approved plan well has it ever been implemented yeah absolutely I in fact when I first got here all with all that vegetation there was vegetation there unfortunately in the course of the three storms it's been taken out in fact in between Ian and Helen I is there any attempt by code to get it in compliance then um I think that's more of a are we doing the entire Island because we can't just single out one person and that's more of an enforcement question okay hold on one second Doug Doug what's your comment yeah so I'd like here's how I'm kind of sizing this up um the special exception uh as a standalone thing is simply to allow 13 commercial parking spots correct correct but what they're really asking for is 43 commercial parking spots correct so if that if they want 43 commercial parking spots I think they need to comply with our codes if they just if they're okay with 13 fine do what you're doing but if you want 43 it's a new project that's the way I look at it let me just clarify something that Mr Dunlop said this all started with a violation and a notice of hearing because there was a sign out there that said parking $10 we met with code enforcement we listened to their issues we said we'll limit the parking to Lanai patrons only they said fine they withdrew the complaint the violation and we're in compliance they said be help us if you went and got a special exception so this parking lot could have more open parking again I believe that because it's ancillary to the hotel under 39211 that it's you can you can lease those spaces out without any any approval but anyway they want they came back for the special exception the 13 parking spots and answer to your question I mean how do you regulate that you're asking for something that's unenforceable so why would we have all these we're not asking for anything not asking I know but I'm saying that how do you enforce that how are you going to you going to have somebody count how many EX who's parking also not not our I understand but I'm just judge Anderson used to always say there's two sections of the law there's the law and there's the reality of the law let's not get bogged down in technicalities they want to continue to operate the way they've been operating these variances if you want us to agree to 13 I don't know if that was in the special exception was that part of the special the approval was it we're limited to 13 it's the difference it's what you have open for the so if we're lied to that why are we even discussing these an answer to your question did the special exception limit us to 13 on first I I I don't know if I if this is how I'm distilling it whether I'm correct or not I don't know but I believe there are 43 available parking spots by code 30 of them have to be assigned to the hotel so they can do with the 133 as they choose today all day without anything happening at all the only thing that's triggering in my mind the need for variances is if they want to apply the 30 that are supposed to be reserved for the hotel to General open commercial parking that's correct that's just that's the way I look at it and I would offer and and in order to do that I don't think they're willing to open their book check for without knowing exactly yeah we got that we understand that but let me ask you this aren't you going to have revenue from 43 parking spots that helps pay for some of this stuff yes there'll be revenue from the parking spots if you're not willing to do that then you should pull this withdraw withdraw this you should withdraw this request because you're at all of these variances pertain to the total use of that lot for Open Spaces it starts with hey we want to use all of it for pay we want the availability to use all of them legally and and because of that that's what triggers all of these variances if you're if you're agreeing hey we'll just we'll take our 13 extra spots and those are the ones that we'll do think we we'd be foolish to agree to something we don't know the number on I can't tell you I don't know what lighting and I lived at the North End for over 20 years they used to turn the street lights off season the number of SP so why are we worried about lights and we're only talking about the number of respons that's right if they're short then they need then we can continue this and they can come back and tell us exactly what we need to do okay that's fine no I think I think they need to come with a plan for the parking lot and show it to us I couldn't agree with you more so thank you very much everybody else is out of compliance you're going to make somebody come in I don't get it well if we're making new parking lots comply with our code this is all this is a new project your request well I guess then we can either continue to get the numbers and they can tell us what it's going to cost to do this cuz I don't know the specifics but if they went away after you put the sign down operate as you been operating pull the request technically then you're done you got a special Technic I I I said that at the very beginning I was not my advice necessarily to do this they wanted to do the right thing they spent the $7,600 to file all this they spent would you like to withdraw your request or would you prefer that the LPA gives you the courtesy of continuing or tabling this to a date uncertain I think I think I think we need to table it talk about it see what it's going to cost to come it will it will save your reapplication 13 just just stays exactly wait don't talk off the Record Bob this is your let let me do this let's continue it if you I would then I can talk to my client and we can figure out what we're going to do I think that's a wise move may I have a motion thank you second so so this is the motion on public comment that we already did that we're back we're that's long gone are we doing it to an open-ended or a DAT date date uncertain date uncertain it will be for them to bring back so the motion is to continue this hearing to a date uncertain there's a second is there any discussion on that motion uh hearing none all in favor I I can can I now so the special exception was granted 13 spaces if we do nothing more they they can do the 13 Open Spaces right and I don't and it was one they have 10 days to appeal time no that would only be for a variance okay so the I don't have to do anything on the special exception yes you have to go to the town still goes to the town coun I thought they had to apply 10 days to Town Council that's a variance only the variance yes the variance would do I have to do anything else apply to anybody else or fill out any more paper I would call Santa or somebody CU I think you need that help okay thank you guys nice to see you Kenny Merry Christmas to all of your family Jason I take back everything I said earlier can I ask a can I ask a quick question can I ask a quick question of Jason just for education I can ask after I guess but maybe if they charged for each parking spot for each room there it's not a commercial lot right because they're getting it their patrons are paying for that spot right cuz a lot of hotels charge for parking you see what I'm saying absolutely so they could charge for they could charge people staying at the hotel they wouldn't need anything a parking fee a parking fee right okay clear thank you okay uh please Judith these are things that to keep in mind when we get to the review of The Land Development code because uh and to n point of considering each thing individually um I hope you will moving forward when you see some more of these AB a hotel has a unique ability that uh Condo building necessarily wouldn't have to review their availability each day to have the staff to go out they can put you know um hang tags on the cars and right I I completely agree with the applicant saying that they need to provide the parking for their um and so you know you might want to consider whether a special exception is appropriate for commercial at a hotel because to your point some of them charge for parking right anyway right yeah and it's in their best interest to keep spots for their patrons yeah yeah so okay thank you Judith um all right so we will move on finish with all of those public hearings and go on to our administrative agenda which are the LPA guidelines I do not have my notes I need a five minutes okay after all that excitement we're we're gonna take a 10-minute bre wind up on good e e e e e e e e e e e e e new J name thank you Josh okay next item on our agenda are the LPA guidelines Nancy thank you um so we had announced at a prior meeting that we would be reviewing them um today and uh I thought I I um I was asked to simplify them so I took out a lot of extra information um and I just wanted to go through them and kind of highlight for you what's in there um that I felt was important to remain or take out if you want to join me on page um 248 we could get started there uh my first comment is that although these These are procedural rules they really are more of guidance to you um and you do have the opportunity to um to wave any of these rules um in a particular situation I think to give up that flexibility um really is not advantageous um in our opening remarks you often hear me say that these quasi judicial hearings they're less formal um than a circuit court um but they are more formal and the degree of formality is really um in your discretion and and I don't think I think you all have handled it in a very professional way um ensuring that the applicant whose property rights are at stake has a fair hearing fair and impartial decision makers we'll talk more about that too the thing that was added was there are a number of sections in your code of ordinances or excuse me your Land Development code um that already address what you do and what you don't do and your qualifications so it's really not um it doesn't provide any benefit to go ahead and regurgitate those in there so the reference there is simply to make you aware that um you do have code sections and then again the ability to wave um and then also there's not going to be any challenge um if for whatever reason based on the case that's in front of you the right thing to do as you heard the attorney say today is is to allow something that maybe the letter of the law of your rules uh would prohibit you from doing um again as long as there's fundamental fairness um I'm not going to raise any concerns as far as your quasi judicial hearings um next on page 249 um the uh the training we just uh took out policy and procedures or other that's just some extra uh information but the election of the officers we want to follow the same procedure that Town Council is following and it's basically announcing your vote um um having the tabulation and verifying that tabulation and then having the person um appointed or selected um the issue of um if you could nominate yourself yes you could um and then also having the LPA member present um is important as well so if you get nominated for something maybe not just chair and vice chair but if you guys decide you want to create some kind of ad hoc commit I'm not saying do that but um but you know that person has to be there to kind of oversee it so the next uh couple Pages there's really not too much there um the public notice is um page 251 that's just basically um you know what your code requires in Florida law requires you can read ask a question on public not for a second yeah please interrupt me um as we go through this problem with that thank you um on occasion it seems like more than seldom people indicate that they're not getting those postcards that go out I assume that is a complimentary um notification versus the formal notification in other words them not getting that themselves or representing that has no standing as to whether or not they were properly notified if the publishment and the advertisements have been done according to the statutes uh I don't know what your code requires right off hand I defer to Judith do you know on the on the noticing I do want to point out that there is a difference between noticing and advertising that's what I mean that's exactly what I mean yeah so the advertisements for um certain items um is the publication in the newspaper the noticing is basically the card that gets mailed okay thank you by complimentary you meant courtesy that's what I meant yeah but we but we do if someone argues I didn't get the notice we have tabled or they come oh you then they did get some kind of notice and I think there's some actually some case law to that effect that your notice argument if you show up at the hearing that's actual notice he yeah exactly I agree but we still have here you know so um yeah and and a continuance is is fine and I think the addresses are pulled from the property appraisers um yeah that's what I was going to add so it's pulled from the property appraisers record so if it's not necessarily going to the specific address it might be going wher the registered so that can sometimes be have if the property owner has not given the most current address maybe it went someplace else and then had to get forwarded well it's properly advertised it's enforceable yeah okay on page uh 252 um I think the biggest concern there is possibly the meeting preparation um I think we have done better as far as trying to get you your packet earlier um we will still have a goal of at least a week um but un it's fantastic where's ay we we'll make sure she knows about that um it's just been very challenging um because of the multitude of meetings when you have special meetings um big special meetings um just Gathering everything but we do all work work as a team and try to get that um that accomplished um let's see okay anticipated absences um page 253 I just wanted to point out that um I would recommend that you limit any type of communication among yourselves I know that you're probably calling just with um holiday greetings or what did you think of that football game but the telephone logs don't really say what the context of the conversation was um and if there is an issue that comes up what would be requested is the telephone logs which shows that you know there were numerous conversations and you know how much can you talk about football maybe a lot maybe a little I don't know so my recommendation is that when you do feel like you want to convey something like the the idea that you are going to be absent that it flows through the town clerk Switzerland yeah Switzerland I I've renamed Amy as town clerk she's neutral um and also it seems that your rules did provide that um absences um 14 days yeah well there's there's a notification requirement but also that it would be a vote of the LPA um which we would do at the beginning of the agenda and when the clerk know knows first of all the clerk is going to try to find out if we have a quorum present and if she does know in advance that someone is going to be absent and request an excused um absence we can go ahead and put that at the top of the agenda near the roll call I think we ought to call that the Don Amendment um yeah and also um very good point Jim um as far as you know if you are going to be absent and require the use of remote participation if we know in advance again we as in the clerk um she can go ahead and put a line on them you know request for remote participation and then it's in the minutes and the record so um okay so at the bottom of page 253 so as needed the chair at the request may appear before Town Council present information discussed at LPA or otherwise requested by a vote of the LPA a I think the other language that was in there basically said that each time you're going to be doing that again this is making it just a little bit more discretionary on your part if you'd like to visit with the um Town Council and um present um meeting procedures on page 254 Nancy could I touch on that for one second you know historically uh there have been times where let's use a case like Seagate it wasn't it wasn't a unanimous vote there have been times historically where the LPA uh chair would go to report to the council and the descending vote person would also um uh make their comments I am not a fan of that uh because I believe that whether You've Won or lost the vote you are part of a team and it's the the team prevails always so even if I had been on the on the losing end of that vote and I went to the Town Council I would only I would only report the uh the pro the the winning vote so does anybody object to that I I mean if there was something for example if there was something that was brought up that was really well discussed or whatever that was a topic uh that like you know but this was brought up I that would be that would be included but um I don't I I'm that's just my opinion and as the chair that's how I would present it unless you all Council may ask too right they may say we noticed there were two descending votes can you explain or they may ask they may ask yeah the other thing I was going to mention is we actually sent Pat one time to council and then you and I went one time but we weren't like I wasn't the descending voter to talk about subject we we also now have YouTube and the records that are live and you can watch not only the decision the development of that decision the minutes will never be able to characterize that so I think that's very helpful okay so in the future I mean I I enjoy working with all of you but down the road some of you may term off or whatever we may have new faces here and that may not be you know the case and uh if there's heavy debate and argument here um I could see a scenario maybe I'm thinking of another city where I saw this happen where uh you know somebody a proponent and an O opponent goes to the uh governing body and then they stand at the podium and they begin the debate again yeah um the concern that that raises in my mind is the sunshine um because there is sometimes in some circumstances there could be a motion for a reconsideration which means that the matter does come back to you and so even though at the time that they're speaking um you know it doesn't it's not foreseeable at that moment that it's coming back to you but it might um so in the event that any two of you decide that you do want to go to the council meeting and you are going to make comments I would ask that you notify the clerk um so that she could provide the notice and then we don't have any Sunshine issues excuse me I have a question yes so if you want to go as Jane plumber Citizen and you know that doesn't exist anymore remember when we had to deal with this with G Reynolds okay when when you that's going back it is going back but this maybe maybe Nancy you're gonna oine differently for me to stand up at or Jane or any one of us to stand up at the podium and say I am not here as a member of the LPA I'm here because I live on Jefferson Street it sounds realistic but the council knows you're part of the LPA and the public knows that you're part of the LPA in the past uh the the idea has been that if you're taking this public role you're you now have a public role period not that you relinquish being a private person but it's very hard to separate your John was on John voted in favor of Seagate so if John went to the LPA and said you know what I voted in favor of this even though the LPA voted against it it would be and I'm only here as John I'm not here as an LPA member that has happened in in the past and when it happened in the past it was no no no you can't do that you just that's just not right to do uh what's your thoughts on that well I have a couple First Amendment right yeah First Amendment but also I I may think differently too if John live next door to Seagate um because then he is going to be individually impacted by it at which point he may have declared a a conflict but but then again the argument would be was is the gain or loss speculative mhm um but I agree with Jim I mean First Amendment rights you really you could um I don't think I don't think the body can suppress an individual's right toate to go to council and make a statement okay but is it the right thing to do I mean you know what are the Optics and so I think as you heard today you know there's what the letter of the law says and then what's really needs to happen here within the letter of the law not saying Sunshine Nancy about talking to each other um I guess I'm asking whether how that applies to directly with each other or indirectly and the context I would give it is several of us have gone on beach talk radio and had conversations that people are listening to about topics obviously we we stay away from anything directly with what we're dealing with but um it's just a Nuance that I'd like to get your reaction to about conversations that the other members are hearing that we're having about our opinions on things so um in the past I worked for um a jurisdiction it happened to be a county um we had two County Commissioners um at a luncheon who walked outside together um during this luncheon and had a conversation um and then there were allegations of sunshine violation and there actually were criminal charges uh levied against both of them and I think at the end of the day they got out of it I mean There Was You Know documentation but then it's kind of like well this is what he said and this is what she said and it's just not a situation you want to be in so my advice has always been that if two of you or three of you are gathered together at a non LPA function that you still have a neutral person present um to perhaps give testimony in the event that somebody did raise a um Sunshine violation challenge you know and that person can say they were talking about that recipe you know but and in a small town it's really difficult as well because everybody does know everybody and if you don't go to these social events and be active in the community you know people are concerned about your your welfare and your health and where you know how come I'm not seeing her um but to get to your question regarding um statements made in other forums we often draw the distinction um the matters that are brought to you in fact I mentioned it to Amy this morning we're going to start putting parentheses like if it's qua judicial or if it's legislative because if it's legislative yes you're going to be talking about it but an individual's private property rights are not really at stake in the Quasi judicial um area we are are much more formal because your decision will impact that individual's private property rights and those are protected by the US Constitution as well as the Florida Constitution and nobody wants to trample on private property rights so that said when you sit in a quasi judicial Forum that you do um you are coming with an open mind you have not been biased in any way because you have to be an impartial decision maker um and you are making your decisions only on the evidence that is presented to you during that public hearing not on things that you heard outside now again it's a small town right you're going to hear things and if you don't we might be more concerned so that's why we do the EXP parte disclosures um and then there is an opportunity for the individual or their representative to ask you a little bit more about that you know I saw you go buy that property five times what were you looking at did you miss something the first time you went by and they those are all perfectly fine and the reason for it is not to put you on the spot but to make sure that you do have not um had a preconceived notion on how you're going to vote because otherwise then why would we even have a hearing right if you each one of you went out from some available media outlet and said you know this is how I'm going to vote so why you have the meeting right right um and Jim and I we had that conversation um I think that there is an exception in the code as well but um it's it's for bias in um a public in a quasi judicial uh setting that if for instance I'll use myself as an example uh if an ex-husband came which by the way I don't have one but um if he came to the to the podium and I was a decision maker and you know he really got me in that divorce settlement I I just can't I cannot be impartial I know he perhaps doesn't say the truth all the time that would be a basis however if you do that guess what they have the opportunity to inquire um so I that happens in a small town too Nancy so so I caution you um that issue doesn't really come up too much it is uh in Florida Statutes under the section on conflict of interest which I think you guys have have a handle on so that was kind of a long answer to your question but I I think I hit some other points you did it was like when the intervenor asked follow-up questions of me because of a discussion that I'd had with the applicant which it's fine yeah you know um other again we are formal yet we're informal but some jurisdictions um it has to be you know I visited the site I looked at the west side of the building I looked from the street I saw this I didn't see where you know it it is very very involved but again it's the idea of fairness and I think that um based on your disclosures the applicant has the opportunity to question you I think that that instills a degree of fairness that would be upheld okay so I think I answered your question and we'll move on thank you very much um okay so meeting procedures 254 um we're going to follow the um ethics rules in chapter 112 which is primarily the the conflict so there's a lot that was taken out because 112 is pretty comprehensive um page 256 the order of the agenda um we added a couple things um in there changes to the agenda I'm not sure if we have that in there now or not not yet um but we kind of made these along the way um I think that's pretty self-explanatory you know Robert's Rules of Order um we can we can look to them for guidance if an issue comes up but generally there's some sections that um May conflict which is stated there um and then we can just follow your your proceeding um then we've got the legislative hearing um on page 257 I do want to point out on number seven one of your um important roles that you perform is to make a recommendation on consistency and that's a requirement in Florida Statutes a finding on consistency um you make the recommendation and then ultimately the council um finalizes that so I just want to make sure that that everyone is aware of that and then of course um whether or not the application is in compliance with your code and reason for denial simply enough is that in our opinion we do not believe it's consistent with the comprehensive plan you could do that however the applicant's going to want to know what policy Parts yeah and think about it it's fair sure it's fair because this gives the um applicant property owner an an opportunity to go back and rethink and and see what they could do to uh convert that denial to a um approval uh the reason for denial we've kind of learned the hard way with prejudice or without we can add that in there right what does that mean that with prejudice and without can you explain that it's has to do with timing go ahead right right so without prejudice means that they could come back within a six-month period Judith you're gonna have to correct me if I'm wrong um if with with prejudice would mean that they have to sit out an entire year here right so if you're denying it because it's just not quite right but you want them to be able to come back um with something similar um that's that's how it is okay so quasa judicial so we um modified this a little bit to be consistent with your um your rules um sometimes as you know I interrupt and I oh for instance I did it this morning um I asked the uh presenter if she was qualified as an expert previously and she said of course yes I was um and the only reason I do that is because sometimes um if in the event there's an appeal it's already stated in the record and then we don't have to go forward and and argue the point that yes she was an expert yes she was providing expert testimony and her testimony was this therefore it was competent substantial evidence um so when I jump in the middle I it's not my intent to be disrespectful of you or your proceedings it's just I'm trying to make sure there's things in the record well I never take it that way Nancy I I mean I don't think anybody else does helpful well I try to keep my mouth shut but it's hard um okay so the LPA um meeting output so this is on page 257 oh before I go on though I do want to ask is there any other questions regarding LPA I mean uh quasa judicial no no um and again I want to emphasize as I explained earlier um staff when they first come to the podium they're giving you an overview an introduction because the burden is on the applicant who's coming and asking you to do something different than currently exists in the town so they have to carry the burden and persuade you and then staff's going to come and give you a very um neutral analysis based on the code um and then of course rebuttal and closing closing comments but that's a little bit of a shift so um well would you touch one more time then um about the requirement to literally read the entire motion or I'm sorry the entire um variance or or whatever happens to be special exception versus just having it as written read into the record so it's important because you may have members of the public that are either watching or in the audience and they may not have a copy of what staff's recommendation was okay um the fact that it's verbalized also re re uh affirms what is written so there's no uh misunderstanding so it is preferable to do it but a lot of times never happens and then we just deal with it but having um one of the things you guys kind of skip over a little bit is um um a motion to accept the agenda packet into your record um we can argue that it is part of the record because it was something you saw it was something the applicants saw but having that little line in there Al also helps so we don't have to it's good avoid it but if you have 10 quas judicial waiting you know we're going to shortcut some of some of the process sorry just we're talking about the the procedure of of presentation there are sometimes not so many but sometimes incidences where the applicant is a homeowner and they need a small variant in those cases are you okay with staff doing more of the presenting because if it's a if it's a homeowner and they need a small varians they may not have an attorney and a planner and and all these people you know sure to so if if you want to role play that you could still follow um the the sequencing so we all kind of you know know the order um so staff can get up and introduce it have the applicant come up and then defer immediately back to staff and staff can then do the whole presentation okay um you know I need these variances to get my house back um to rebuild my house okay thank you and then staff can come in and go into the technical sides of it good question okay all right so trying to move us along here um I guess that's 259 um okay so um staff is going to report what actions were taken generally if it's an ordinance we put that in there um language in the whereas Clauses and we also um use the word consistency because um remember that's one of your um primary responsibilities um under the code um that sometimes um the chair shall sign a resolution evidencing the findings and decision making um and when the LPA has final agency action and that would be for variances and if you go on the town's website you'll find that you can access any uh resolution that um the LPA has adopted and I think I think the rest is all pretty much deleted did yeah good job so well it's a very simplistic thing and um we can start small and over time if you feel the need to add a few things um we can do that it's somewhat difficult when you have the strike and insert but um it was there to show what was taken out I like that thank you Nancy so I would be looking for um a motion to allow me to go ahead and finalize this and then uh we would would you like us to include that in your agenda packet or I no every every meeting or just give you just give you a copy of it yes that would be perfect less is more make it available so there's a motion to uh to accept this uh by Jane is there a second second a second by Don is there any discussion on the motion oh minor discussion I I did notice a misspelling so might check that okay misspelling where uh I saw two D's after uh something with a Ed d d okay okay we'll look for it now the whole thing's blown up amend my second amend that motion am that yes okay all those in favor of the motion say I I or nobody's opposed the motion carries unanimously okay thank you Nancy next item on the agenda is LPA members items and reports um John do you have anything uh I don't how about you Jim no Jane I I just want to bring this up because um over Thanksgiving I um did a lot of cleaning on my street and in bringing a lot of the junk off of the empty lots I found um four septic tanks that are open and we put boards over them and things and I did notify um code and and let them know and they right away because I mean dogs kids people cutting through yards at night I mean if you end up in one of those holes it is really yak and I just think I think it's time that we need to get our streets clean again and um I would just like everybody to work with their neighbors and try to get people to help clean up because it is really time is there um were these abandoned septic tanks with the what what the code person said to me was when they cleared the lot it had to be a machine that lifted that top off because that's not something that's easily moved got it and it was completely open you know it's like 7 feet long and three or four feet wide and you know definitely is this something that where we notify the property owner that yes I I told enforcement they put a notice out and cuz yeah that has to be yeah on the street as neighbors but we didn't have enough boards to completely cover them but at least it gives you some notice that you're going to fall in there's something there anything else Jane no I well I no I'll ask somebody I'll ask somebody okay Doug anything no ma'am how about you Doug thank you none Jim I I don't have anything other than to wish everybody a very Merry Christmas ho ho Merry Christmas um Nancy anything else from you no thank you all Judith Jason anything no okay what what are the secret uh the secret components of our next agenda do you know January 9th uh we January 9th is the the date um I'm not we're not sure yet okay the short answer that's all right okay well there there's nothing else it is 11:16 and so moved thank you there's a motion for adjournment and we're adjourned at 11:16