All right. Good afternoon everyone. It is Tuesday um December 2nd, 2025 regularly scheduled meeting of the former mayor's beach charter review commission. Uh let me call this meeting in order. Rise of the pledge of allegiance please. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you very much, Ed. If we could start with you with the roll call, please for those in attendance.
>> Ed school. >> Thanks, Zuba. >> Make sure your mics are on. >> Hank Zuba. >> Roll call. Say your name. >> Hank Zuba. >> Okay. Thank you. Jim Demi, >> Brian Thomas, >> Michelle Jurnney, Anita Sarita.
>> All right, let the record show that um all members with the exception of Bev Milikin are present. We do certify we have a quorum. I would look for a motion to excuse Bev. She has asked for an excuse absence today. She's traveling. >> So move. >> Any support? >> Second. >> Okay. All those in favor? I
>> I >> All right. Motion carries unanimously. All right. The approval of the minutes of our November 4th meeting have been routed out and attached. Um, and may I have a motion to read those into the minutes, please? >> So move.
>> Okay, I'll support that. Any additions, deletions, corrections to the minutes as proposed? All those in favor? I >> I. >> Any opposed? All right. Motion carries unanimously. Member items.
I don't think I have anything additional this time. Usually she puts that in there if there's some things I want to talk about. The only thing I would say um we'll get into the whole business here in a minute. Uh we have a very meaty section today and I heard through the coconut many of you have been
putting a lot of time and effort into preparing for today. So we will move through that methodically. After we finish section four, I will leave it up to the group whether or not you want to attack section five today or add that to the January 6th meeting since those are
the two biggest ones of the entire charter at this point. But we'll leave that uh decision up till we get to that point. See where the time is, see where the energy is and whether or not people want to continue on to the next one. All right, moving into old business. It was brought up by a member about what are
the exact boundaries of Fort Myers Beach, particularly when it talks about the thousand feet into the bay, but the question was raised around the um St. Carlos and on out to the ocean in that regard. So, we have our harbor master today here today, Mr. Lewig. So, I'm
going to turn the mic over to you and help you delve us through how our boundaries work and what we're actually in charge of and legally around to u pass laws around. Yes. Uh, is this on? >> Yep. >> All righty. Good afternoon. Um, my name is Curtis Lewig. I'm the harbor master
for the town of Fort Myers Beach. Um, I got brought in today to uh discuss the um I guess our jurisdiction surrounding big big Carlos Pass. So, um, as it states in our big big Carlos pass inlet
management plan, um, that was, um, done by Florida Department of Environmental Protection, um, back in October of 24. Um, it states that, um, we have a, um,
um, a,000 ft um, um, perimeter around Big Carlos Pass. Um, so that goes all the way into Esteigo Bay, back into the bay, wraps around the island, 1,000 ft around, and
then that that,000 ft perimeter will go all the way down the island into the Gulf, 1,000 ft outside the Gulf. So, it circles the entire the entire island. um and for um so that puts us about
halfway into uh Big Carlos Pass. So, but as it states in the environmental management plan, we are not responsible for the dredging of that of that of that inlet. That falls under uh Lee County. Um
so, um I don't know what other I guess um that's the information that I have for y'all on that. Um, do you have any more questions regarding this or >> Yes, questions from >> I can answer. >> Michelle, I think you're the one who brought it up, right? >> Uh, no, actually Ed did and kind of uh
actually tag off of Ed's because we have the same issue. So, when you say a thousand feet in responsibility for drudging, I'm going to use two examples. I'll let Ed explain his coming into Laguna Shores there versus I live on Fair View coming in there. If I think of
a th00and ft off, are you saying who's responsible for the dredging in those two cases? >> So, so if you're talking about Laguna Shores and stuff like that, that is going to be under the town's jurisdiction because it's inside the parameters of 1,000 ft. So, anything
outside the thousand feet. So, it's pretty much I have a I sent this to Nancy as well, and I can get this sent out to all of y'all, but it literally has a a line drawing around the perimeter of Big
Carlos Pass and what we are are in. So, all the canals, all the canals on on the island are under >> town >> the town's jurisdiction. So if you're talking about Fair View and that has a canal along with Laguna Shores, that's
all under the town's the town's jurisdiction. Anything outside of that circle, so meaning so where the bridge is and stuff, you pretty much put the line at the center of the bridge. That's going to be our jurisdiction. But what it states in here, when it gets to the inlet outside
there, we are not responsible. That falls under Lee County even though that it's within that thousand feet. >> There you go. Ed, >> I was just um looking for more of a legal description of of the jurisdiction of the of the town of Fort Myers Beach.
Um I know that your crew has been out and they've done cleanup in the canals, other things in that area that were not responsible to dredge. So, I was just looking for um confirmation on exactly >> what what spots are you talking about that were not responsible to dredge?
What do you what do you what do you mean by that? in Big K St. Carlos Pass. >> So, we got the perimeter of the beach because that follows within our but we're not dredging that. We're just we were just cleaning up and picking up debris. So, >> Okay. So, what at what point would that
area be dredged? >> Um that's up to the county and stuff. I don't know those those answers for you. >> So, I I kind of want to interject a little bit. >> Go ahead, Nancy. um you know, we're not really talking about the dredging issue
of of maintenance of these canals in this setting um for this commission. What >> what is within your discussion is whether the boundaries of the town of Fort Myers Beach as reflected in your charter is correct. We appreciate the
input and I'm sure um our harbor master will take it take it back and and move it up through to the town manager. Um you know if your your concerns that you're expressing but at this point as far as your your role we're really not
in a position to put anything extra in your town boundaries related to dredging. So, it's a little bit off topic, but kind of related. So, >> the dried drinking was brought up just because it's part of the legal description of the town's jurisdiction.
And if you read what it says here, it describes the Gulf of Mexico, this document says, and the inland bays. And it says parallel parallel with the shoreline of said Astero Island. So, that does not include Big Carlos
Pass. >> Astero Island. So in that wording it it's kind of iffy if it includes St. Big St. Carlos Pass and also Matanzis Pass
>> and Nancy I think to your point Ed raises the turn that's why it came up in the first place >> and that's appropriate >> so we can change that language to be more explicit around the St. Carlos >> before before we propose a charter amendment. I think that we'll probably do a little bit more research and and
you know confirm that or or you know whether or not it is within the um the town's jurisdiction. Great discussion appropriate discussion. >> It's the harbor master's uh belief that it does and what I believe the um
committee member Ed is looking for is is there a legal description that would codify that just so there's no confusion for future jurisdictional conversations. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be um an ordinance. It could be an interpretation by the town council as to
what those terms in the existing charter mean. And that that would be one way to to get to the >> So, is it your recommendation to carry that request in our wrap-up? >> I don't to that's your perview if that's something you guys want to do. >> Ed, how would you like to wrap up the
recommendation on next steps around this? >> I I have a question. So when you when you say how we interpret it, would it be by resolution? Would it be by >> Yes, it would be by resolution. Okay. Unless if you want to codify something like that, we would have to find
something in your existing code that speaks to your town boundaries. But I don't right off hand I can't think of anything there because generally the town boundaries are included in a town in a charter. >> Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman, why don't you see what you guys want to do and I I'll
be willing to take anything to the council and see what we can go from there. >> So, Ed, I'm going to leave it to you to propose something to bring back to us that you think might clarify that. Let's look at it as a body and then if we approve it accordingly, we'll give it to the vice mayor to carry forward for the conversation with the council. >> I got um
>> Can can I make one more comment? So, if you recall at our initial meeting, we talked about creating a list >> Yes. of things that perhaps we wanted to see changed in the existing charter. And then once we had that list, then there would be an analysis done as to should
this be a charter amendment, should it be a ordinance change, or should it be a uh resolution. So I think what I'm hearing from you all is that this can be put on the list and um at this point in time it appears that the most
appropriate vehicle to make this change and make it happen might be the resolution. So I don't know if our clerk or who is keeping track of of these proposed um items the list. >> Yeah, I assumed you were Amy. So clarify
that if I misunderstood that. But we do owe you at least clarifying language on that to put on our list and then you and the council can decide which legislative action you want to take if you want to take any at all in the end. We won't make the res recommendation specifically to that except for the language change and then it can adopt in any way they
think is the best way to serve it. >> However, um you do and again this could be viewed as somewhat of a scrivener's issue. Um we do have the Gulf of Mexico now known as the Gulf of America. Um that can probably be changed as um you
know a scrivener's type like that. Sure. >> That would not have to go to the voters of Lee County for you or excuse me the voters of >> didn't go to the voters of anybody on anyway >> town of Fort Myers Beach for approval. >> Okay. Thank you. Ed, do you carry that water?
>> I do. I do just want to uh add one more thing here. This is out of the um environmental protection plan. Um Vic Carlos passed um inlet management plan. Um,
it it states Lee County has has been the has has been the entity responsible for dredging Big Carlos Pass and and consequently mitigating the extent of beach of beach erosion caused
caused by the inlet as thus specified in the sub subsection 161. 1.1442. >> So, can we take that offline? That's back to the dredging issue again. We'll carry that on another conversation. Okay. >> We'll get the language on description of our territory.
>> We can come back to you under other conditions or circumstance to give information on the dredging. >> I just wanted to state that that it is stated. I'm not just I'm pulling I'm telling you this information from the from the management protection plan here. So, >> okay. I was just in this whole
discussion was just looking for qu legal question actually if there's any recourse from the town if you're you're in those areas that aren't specifically outlined in this paragraph and something happens somebody gets hurt
something who's going to be responsible for that and as far as the dredging thing goes actually the channel that goes into the lagoon is within a thousand feet of the town's border. >> Get within a th00and ft. So that's within our jurisdiction. It's not
outside outside the thous. >> What? Huh? No. No. Because it's with >> Why wouldn't it be the big Carlos Pass? >> Why wouldn't it be? >> Correct. >> Can I show y'all this picture? Is there >> I'm gonna suspend that because we've got a lot to get through today. >> Okay. >> Um we'll come back to this. What I'm
hearing and way I want to wrap it up is we want to make sure that we know our boundaries and it's it's explicit in the town charter and therefore whether it's liability or the responsibilities inherent to the town's responsibilities are defined in the entire thousand feet of the island. So we'll get that piece
cleaned up and then we'll get back on the followup for the rest of the conversations about dredging liability and a bunch of other things like that. If I could >> ask you understood I was just trying to to to questions and stuff like that. We own that point too and that's all we wanted to hear and now we have to make sure it
reflects in the charter. >> All right, sir. Not a problem. >> Thank you, Curtis. >> Do you need me here for any more or >> I think we're good because we're not coming back to dredging. So, why don't you get out while you can? >> Okay. I've never >> I've never had the chance to meet you,
but um I just want to tell you people rave about what a great job you are doing and so thank you for that. >> I appreciate that. Thank you very much. >> You're welcome. >> And when you start dredging, you'll be even more popular. All right, let's move to um another part of the old business. We had uh
recommended to council a um resolution that was not part of the original uh charter language of our commission and that was to put in place that two unexcused absences would require removal from the charter commission. As you saw
today with Bev and we've done prior, there are ways to get the properly excused um absences. We use Amy for notification and make sure that you're let her know when you're coming or not. So, I'd like to make a motion to approve resolution 25-328. The town council has been supported of that. Read it into our
charter rules and regulations. >> I'll second that. >> Thank you, Hank. Any conversation about the resolution itself? >> So, um, Vice Mayor Safford, um, brought this up and, uh, I don't know if he has any comments that you'd like to
>> No, it was it was absolutely unanimous. was really quick. So, full support of council with this resolution 25-328. >> Thank you, Scott, for carrying that expeditiously to the council. All right, we have a properly moved and um seconded. Any additional conversation?
>> All right, I'm in I think I Ed >> resolution >> and you kind of went quick. >> It's already been conversation. >> Yeah, it has. We have to adopt it. >> You guys don't have >> Oh, we don't have to. >> Oh, okay. Great. I don't think so. >> Perfect. Then it's in place.
>> Okay. >> So, hey, did you have a follow-up question on resolution with two unexcused absis? >> No, not on that. I have I have a issue with section two, letter B.
I have to turn that back over to Scott >> if I could if you'd like me to help you out. Section two, letter B. And this is a situation we're facing today. It says, "In the event of an absence by an appointed CRC member, an alternate attendance shall become a voting
member." I don't know if we have anything we're going to vote on today. I think we just tried to have a vote and the alternate shall alphabetically rotate in the absences. Uh that's a situation we're facing today.
>> That's how the ordinance is written >> in my understand resolution. >> Yeah. Okay. My understanding of that was to supplement a quorum because we couldn't even use uh remote people as a quorum. So we would bring an alternate to that. So maybe there's the
distinction to make sure we completely agree with and understand. >> Well, we need the T that's the language is not in there, Mr. Chairman. So I I want to defer to our town attorney. >> So the language I thought was pretty clear. Um so you do have an absence
today of a CRC member. We do have an alternate present today. Um and Anita will become a voting member should you take any votes today. Um, the other alternate is not present and
>> I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry I missed it. Um, so the two alternates shall uh alphabetically rotate in filling occasional vacancies. So, uh, we've got two C's,
>> Anita with a CE and, uh, Michelle with a C. >> C. Let me go through that quickly from Sesame Street. Okay, I think you have an Anita. >> All right, welcome. Thank you. Thanks, Ed. That was a great u great item to point out. >> So, so then it would be Anita who would
be voting today if you take any votes. >> Excellent. >> But Michelle, you can participate to your heart's content. >> Thank you. >> Up until that moment. >> All right. Well, that deals with the old business. So, let's move on to today's focus if we can. We're going to do
charter offices article 4. Um there's a couple handouts. Um I'm going to let um you've already got one from Bev at your station of her comments. So it should say Beverly Milligan comments for article four and five. So make sure you
can all find that as we look through each section and get that read in. Amy has copies. They thought we should get them out. Everybody's got them. >> Oh yeah. >> Okay. We'll get them here. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Good. All right, Michelle, I think you have a handout as do I. So, why
don't you go ahead and context yours and hand those out? >> Great. I will pass these down. Um, >> I can I can intercept. >> Okay. Um, thank you for allowing my input to be heard as a backup to this committee. I do understand that I do not have any voting power today. I have
spent a lot of time the last few weeks reviewing section four and five of the charter and comparing with similar communities such as Santael, Hysterero, and Marco in some cases even further. My goal here in this research has been
simply to understand what works well elsewhere and how our charter might be clarified or strengthened without changing our basic format of government. I'm bringing forward ideas. We passed out the summaries that focus on clearer
language, smoother processes, and greater transparencies, especially around roles, vacancies, and administration responsibilities. These suggestions I'm bringing forward are meant to support the committee's work, not to push major changes. I'm
grateful to be part of this group, and I look forward to working with you as we continue to rebuild after these hurricanes. Um, chair, I know I have a lot of information here and per your original request that we'd each go around and talk about it. I am open to you reading my dialogue out of here. Um,
and just to keep the process rolling. >> Yeah, we made a change. Uh, Hank's suggestion that we just open it up for comment as it comes. So, just jump into that moment as the topic comes up. Michelle, we'll be fully capable of carrying your own conversation as is everybody else. >> Great. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Here's a handout
that I have specifically dealing with um the compensation section for mayor and counselors today. Um this is actually the work of um had a premeating with Will and uh our HR executive, our
attorney and um the deputy mayor, deputy town manager. So this is consolidated look in the same vein that Michelle took on what other organizations are doing. I'll get more into detail this when we get in the compensation section of what the history's been and what the current
situation is and then obviously we'll all have some recommendations as I will for some changes to that going forward. >> Um Mr. Chair, could you please uh now I believe we have four um items and um the authors of each one. I know Beverly
Milligan hers is by email. We have a copy of that. >> That's right. Um the document that starts off article four charter officers council members elections >> Michelle Churnney >> that is Michelle's >> Yep. >> And you had the other two. You had the
council compensation as well as charter committee input. >> This is Michelle's. >> Michelle has two and Jim has one. >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> And Beverly. Okay. I think we've got it figured out down here. >> Okay. It's all on the record for everybody.
All right. So, let's dig in. This is why we're here. As we had done for the first three articles. Um, we're going to go through these paragraphs. It's my understanding today. We will have some ability to make uh strikeouts, etc. adjustments on the fly today. >> So, it should be up >> get them up there.
>> Should be up in our screen as we go through them. Let's start with section 4.01 council member elections subsection A. There shall be a town council >> hereafter referred to as the council with all legislative powers of the town
vested therein consisting of five council members all of whom shall be >> from the town at large. >> So >> all right conversation >> I did a lot of research on this. This was back and forth. I will tell you that
um if you benchmark all the local communities, I say the majority, they do not require that you own in the town that you are council members on. >> You mean it could be a business?
>> So, let's get that to item C when we get down to resident, etc. This is only on actually having a council, a number of mayors and at large. >> So, it's just a 4.01A. >> I'm sorry. >> Okay. any changes anybody recommends on that particular subsection?
>> It does seem to conflict with the second paragraph that has by election by district and then it says for the all at large. >> Yes. >> Can you bring the mic closer closer? Sure. Sorry. >> So they can hear. >> You can unplug it too if you need to.
It's not plugged. Yeah. Thank you. U it seems as though it conflicts with at large and by district and I don't understand the point of having a district if it's at large.
>> It's not really I think it's Hank >> Hank Hank as soon as she can vote. Here we go. >> That's right. It's not it's not really doesn't say um districts. It's seats. um back at the very beginning of the town,
you had to run for a seat. It wasn't just all kind of open and um I I don't I don't see the conflict between one and two between A and B. >> Okay. If it's not uh by district, it says designated seats. >> Designated seats. And
>> okay, because at the beginning, if you remember, you had to you had to choose to run seat 1 2 3 4 5. And now they're just assigning 1 2 3 4 5 to give a seat a number. It's completely
uh >> innocuous. It doesn't represent anything other than what seat are you, Scott. Do you know? You have no idea. I was I was seat three. >> I But I have no idea. >> So therefore, is it even relevant? >> It's really not. >> So B could be removed without
consequence from your perspective, Hank. How do you feel about that? >> Fine. I I don't see any force to being in from one seat or the other. Right. >> There is none. None. >> It doesn't designate anything. >> Okay. >> Leaison, any concerns from your end? >> Vice Mayor?
>> No. I I've always found it confusing myself because it says by alphabet and now since the change last week, now there's a different alphabetical order. So, I'm not really sure. I mean, it makes no sense actually. >> I see. Councelor, what's your reaction
to um any recommendation we have for eliminating that? Is there anything you see that's outside of our qualifications to do so or complications we're want to think through? >> No. Um I guess I hate to say it, but it seems like if it's not broke, then why are we changing it?
>> Um but it does I can see where there could be some um concern about perhaps seat being interpreted as district. Um, you know, if you want to try to massage the the wording a little bit, we could
do that. But massaging the wording, I don't think that would be really suitable for placement on the ballot. That might become more of an interpretation issue. Um, or you could possibly even eliminate references to
seat um >> because because it does imply that somebody would be voting in a particular section >> acting accordingly. And as Scott just said, so we seated a new member. Now all the seat numbers change on which one you have and accomplish nothing. >> So what I would ask our clerk um if she
just makes a notation underneath that section that says discussion and concerns regarding use of seats as well as at large elections. And then you we can come back to it as you get closer to
the end of your review. Um and then we'll have a a working document that will remind us to come back to that >> two items already. We are cranking >> concerns use of seat numbers and what was the second half? >> Sorry. >> In at large
um districts or in at large elections. >> So as you can see now our technology is going to allow us to see the actual changes we're putting up there as recommended language. You can watch that real time now and that'll be memorialized as we go through the document um towards the end and consolidate recommendations.
>> Well, that would have been helpful during the comp plan work. >> Any other conversation on B. >> All right, moving on to C. Each member of the council shall be a resident of the town and a registered voter and have and shall have resided within the
corporate limits of the municipality for a minimum of one year prior to qualifying for the election. discussion. >> I think Michelle, you had some comments on this. Is this the area you're >> Okay, fine.
>> I favor that definition. I I seems to be while there might be some uh municipalities that allow somebody who doesn't live in town to be a um either because of a business or some other interest. Uh but it it seems to me it
should be clear that it should be a resident and it should that time period also makes sense. >> Yes, I was going to add um that the way that this is wording there's several requirements in order to to run for council. That would be first that you
are a resident, second that you are a registered voter and you have >> and you have resided exactly for a minimum of one year prior to qualifying for the election. So there's three characteristics of eligible candidates
for council >> and those corporate limits will be important when Ed has his thousand feet finally defined so we can make sure anybody in that end the island can run if they choose to. You know, that did actually come up one time and it was it was somebody who lived on a boat. It was Dave. Do you remember Dave? Amy. So Dave
lived on a boat and you know the question was is he a resident of the town? >> Ball's going to matter where it is. >> Listen, damn it. He's never been in the traffic jam then. >> How could he be sensitive to our issues? >> It can't he can't have a sense of the town. >> He had not suffered trial by fire. That's right.
>> Um any other conversation on the language as sits today on that one. The other thing I will mention and we'll get to it. I don't mean to pollute the conversation beyond what it is right now. I think later on in the charter, it does go into some conversation around council shall discernment shall
determine who a resident is. >> So just keep that in mind. We'll visit this um topic again when we get to that section. Those of you that read it, >> is that a defined term, a resident? >> No, the council can determine what a resident is later in the charter, >> but we can deal with that as we come up. >> I have a question on on Miss Milligan's
thing. She had highlighted owner or tenant of land, an actual owner, which it's up to you guys to decide, but that was one of her points. >> Well, a tenant of land is a resident and
and can be elected. I was a tenant when I was first elected and I was I mean, I was a resident. So, >> so are you suggesting perhaps it's good to call that out as Bev is saying or is it inherent in the conversation? I think if you're a resident, you're a resident.
>> Yeah, that's why. >> Okay, very good. >> I agree. >> Thank you, Vice Mayor. Good catch. >> All right, going on to D. The council are elected officials who are accountable to the citizens at regularly held elections and who are
subject to recall as provided by law. The citizens through these processes have the opportunity to elect, reelect or dismiss their elected officials whose promise of performance or actual performance in the office best reflects the policies which the citizens desire
to implement in the government of the town. >> No comment. Perfect. others. >> I don't have a comment, but I think Bev has got Dspecifically called out and I
unable to comment on what she's >> All right. So, Beverly's feedback was while the council is elected by elder voters and provided by Florida law, sterile island property taxpayers also included seasonal and temporary residents. Is is that the right section? D
401D. Yeah. as well as business owners, all not eligible to vote locally, but necessary for the health of the economy. Okay. I'm not exactly sure how to interpret that. >> I I wish I I've had this conversation with Beverly over the years, and um uh
I'm I'm drawing a total blank on, you know, I I think her her wish would be maybe I'm speaking out of line. I'm sure she'll tell me if I am, but I think her wish would be, you know, she's a major property owner on the island, but she has no voting authority on the island.
And um and I think ideally she would like that to change or shift somehow, but that's not our purview. >> No. >> No. >> No, >> I don't think so. >> And there's a process for that. And it's frankly not difficult. >> Yeah. >> To re-register. Obviously, I did it when I did my stuff out here. So my only
comment on D would be the fact that we've used the word dismiss the elected officials. It probably should be recall rather than >> but there's that's just scrivener's thing and we don't even need to mess with it. But I think that's the general
interpretation. No one on this commission raised that. So it there's an understanding that dismiss means recall. >> Although the dismiss term really could be referring to conviction of a felony or other issues. reside. >> So other ways to lose your job.
>> Um >> Okay. So removal, >> dismiss is kind of removal or recall depending on the process >> to get that person out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. >> For the reason. >> Okay. Leave it. Make it or leave it.
>> Leave it. >> Leave it. >> It got interpreted exactly the way it was probably meant by the authors that it has flexibility on both options there. >> Got it. >> Anybody else on D? Okay. E policymaking is the sole prerogative
of the elected council. Administrative staff whether hired or appointed under terms of this charter is subordinate to the elected official officials whose power derives from the consent of and election by the citizens of the town.
Please >> I'm going to say this specifically to Scott. You know, Scott, this I agree with this 100%. But flags waved all over the place to me in the course of our work with Eddie Ing and the charter how many times he said,
"We were told to change this. We were told to eliminate this." Now, if they weren't told, if he wasn't told by the council or the LPA or a combination of the two, who told him? >> Yeah, I thought that myself several
times. like who who's >> that interference of um I mean that has always historically been something that has been a very very clear line where I mean I remember one time telling Don Stillwell when he interjected something
in one of our discussions I said well Don when you're elected to one of these seats you can have your opinion on this but >> in the meantime >> in the meantime out uh so that that really was a very big red flag I hope that will heard that and had the same flag raised because especially when it
comes to something like that. Well, anything when it's a policy decision, it's your purview, not not anybody else's. >> I I totally agree. I I think Will did hear that. And you you got to realize that this process was has been going on for 5 years.
>> Oh, I know it was town managers and the hurt the age >> and it could have been somebody in the past. It could have been anybody along the line, but it just it was like whoop, you know. >> Well, I hope we will always operate >> important policy. >> I hope we'll always operate with um we're going to keep talking about this
to you. Give us the who. >> There's a who. >> Absolutely. >> And if you're in the seat as elected official, the other responsibility policy and something else happened that you didn't initiate or authorize, >> but I wouldn't let up on that dog. >> So, >> it's why it's why I'm raising it today. >> Okay.
>> Point taken. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> All right. So let's go on to F. Any other comments on E? Moving right along here. Except as otherwise provided herein or provided by law, legislative and police powers of the town shall be
vested in the council, including the establishment of boards, commissions, and committees. The council shall provide for the exercise of its powers and for the performance of all its duties and obligations imposed on the municipality by law.
>> Nothing should change. Oh, seems frag to me. >> Anybody see anything in there that's worrisome? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Amy, did you get all those changes? >> Got every one of them. >> All right. Section 4.02, new section.
Mayor, >> um, can I jump in and say? >> Of course. >> Okay. So, remember we talked about it at the very first hearing. So we have a charter but then we also have ordinances that implement parts of that charter. >> Yes.
>> So where it talks about the establishment of boards, commissions and committees, I just want to bring to your attention that we do have um an ordinance which is section 2-94 that talks about qualifications and
appointments of members. everything that is in that uh code of ordinances is consistent with your charter. So your charter has delegated that authority to be uh further fleshed out in an ordinance. So I just wanted to point that out as an example of how the
charter and your code work together. Um and if there is a section in the code that seems to apply to your charter, I will try to point that out for you. That's a wonderful example and it shows that the authority is pretty clear as designated by the charter to the council. The council then puts the
details around how they're going to implement that authority and under what conditions and criteria. That's what you're saying. >> Yes. >> Perfect. All right. Let's talk about the mayor a little bit. At the first meeting after the second Tuesday in November, the council by
majority vote shall elect from its membership a mayor. The mayor shall serve as the chairperson during meetings of the council and shall serve as the head of municipal government for the purposes of executing a legal documents as required by ordinance. The mayor
shall also serve as the ceremonial head of the town. All right, conversation on this. I know you've done some work on this people. >> I have a very simple change that I think would, as Dan calls it, the most uncomfortable five minutes every year.
It's it's ridiculous. I've lived through it and it's just silly. So why wouldn't the mayor just be chosen after every election? So when there's a turnover or even if there's not a turner, there's an affirmation of the council, then the
mayor is elected and not necessarily annually. >> So you mean the highest vote getter? >> No. No, >> I mean no, not necessarily. Um I mean that in so we just had an election. It was a recall >> that would trigger an election of the
mayor but next year and next year there's also an election that would trigger a recall a an election of the mayor and vice mayor. The following year there's no election. Whoever the mayor and the vice mayor is would remain until the following election.
>> So you you would extend the term beyond that. >> I wouldn't extend their term. I would extend their pos their role >> until there was an election that triggered that uh reopening the conversation >> or or their term of office expires which of course there would be an election.
>> All right. >> I have favored electing the mayor just as we do the council as you know and my reasoning is thanks uh that uh it seems to me that the mayor has a very strong
voice. it's not purely ceremonial and that uh there should be the voice of the people heard. Um however, I understand that that might require a great deal of juggling about the election because of
the staggered terms. Um so I I wouldn't put it forth as some recommendation at this point. just that I do believe that the office um might be better served if it were more than one year. Um
>> it would be >> you know the the the the Chinese war um historian Shang Hua said it the guy who wins the wars is not the guy with the biggest guns but the guy with the files
and we you know the files are important the knowledge institutional knowledge of is >> important is very important so >> I'll just throw my two cents in. So, one of one of the issues and and Anita can probably vouch for me on this
is back 10 years ago when I would go to county things like the TDC or or to meetings and we talked about Fort Myers Beach and the other communities, it was always now who are you and are are you on council and there
was just no no consistency. Whereas Santael would have Mayor Kevin Ruain for years and years and he got to know people and he had connections and >> and he got things done and it seemed like Fort Myers Beach every year would have a different person and a different role and there there was no consistency. There was no
>> getting to know the other communities that there was it it it just didn't flow well. And I I think we've seen with Dan the last couple years now everybody knows Dan's the mayor and he he now has some pull regionally now, not just and
we we can't stop thinking of our island just as our little island. We're we're part of the community. We're part of Southwest Florida. We're part of the state. So I don't know what how to fix this, but it it seems like consistency in in the upper leadership and the roles
in the county. we we need to try to get a path to that. So, Scott, let me ask you, um, since you brought this up in that context, do you believe that the conversation, awkward as it may be, >> um, annually, that the council is in the
best position to analyze and to put in context, is the mayor serving, the current mayor serving those those uh responsibilities you're talking about, making the right connections, representing us the right way, advocating for the right things, and therefore you are in control of the
continuity as the council. So does that not provide you um the ultimate flexibility to maintain that continuity you're talking about? It's at your hands, you and two of your peers. >> Right. I I I think what we have to do though is is let the council know that
if if the mayor is doing a good job and he's got the connections, he he should be the guy that leads us. So, I I don't know how we put that in the charter, but um it it's it's difficult for our town, especially moving forward as we rebuild,
and we need those connections and those relationships in the future. So, >> yeah, >> I don't disagree. >> I don't disagree with I I don't disagree with Anita about if if there's not a change, why why why toss the apple card?
>> Yep. And it's >> and if that's the case, if it becomes automatic or continuity that way, >> then it's also responsible for us and let's sort embed in other sections and how to remove them mayor that automatically has the job just because
of circumstances not creating the opening. So we'd have to rethink how you get someone out of that job that you don't want in it >> that carried on because we made that change. Today you can selforrect every year, >> but usually somebody's in that job because they have at least three votes.
So I'm just thinking of past councils. I'll use Larry Kiker since he's not here to defend himself. >> So Larry Kiker had a unanimous vote for his term as mayor. Every single year he was on the council. Yeah. >> And there was that continuity. Dan
Hughes also every almost I think almost every year he was on the council he served as mayor. And um but then there were other times where that did not happen and there was an election and people would become elected that uh you
would not have been able to dismiss that mayor because that mayor would have had the votes that he or she needed at the time to to stay. I don't think the charter could have pushed them aside. Do you know what I'm saying? They would name names, but I don't want to. The uh
the ultimate reconciliation of that though is the council members being elected again themselves. >> That's true. >> If the town doesn't want that mayor and they're voting for him, that's a vote >> and there's consequences for votes. >> It just seems like to me we're back to where we were or where we are, whichever
way it feels to you all. Michelle, do you have conversations on this because I know you've done research. Any strong feelings one way or another? Yeah, you know, given our size and the council manager structure that we have right now, you know, the selection of the mayor through the council really seems
to be the right fit because it gives you more stability of what's going on here. If you bring outside voters in for the mayor, you know, for example, it opens up your population, but I think the I think there's two issues. One is stability. Um, when you talk about one
year versus twoyear, and I think that's where Scott's coming from. I think that's one discussion. Moving to a two-year does give you more stability. And I'll just say that for an example that I've only been on this for a year and I honestly was treading water the first year. I didn't know what I could do or couldn't do.
>> Um but you know, and then you've also got the selection, you know, who who who's going to select the voters? Is the voters going to select it or is the council based on what I've everything I I think we clearly can stay as we are right now.
We just got to again to your point the mayor's roles. It's got to be ceremonial. You know, if we if we continue with this, we have to also define the mayor's roles. Frank, >> I don't Ed,
>> I'll add something. Um, if you read this exactly how it's worded, it says, "At the first meeting after the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November, the council by majority." Are you going to stop me because you know where I'm going, right?
>> I know where you're going. We We caught the error that that is a scrivener's error. >> And mine doesn't say that. >> Really? >> This is what we talked about about these two different charter versions. Yeah. Mine says after the at the first meeting after the second Tuesday. >> Period. Yeah. In November. It's not any
more. >> No. No Mondays. >> No Mondays are in mine. >> Nope. Mine says November. Yeah. No Monday in mine either. >> The one Amy gave us is the one I'm working from. >> So So I'm going to tell you that my copy says in March, not November. And And the reason I want to point that out as well,
>> these these are changes that have these are changes that have happened along the way. So, the version that is on MUN code um will be updated to show these changes. And then you might say, well, how did these changes happen? Because we
didn't vote for them on the ballot. They happened because there is that opportunity to make changes um by ordinance. And so, if you recall within the last what last year or so, >> last year, the year prior,
>> yeah, we had to do uh we did two ordinances. I believe that was clarifying and fixing some of the language. Um so it is most very important that we that we are operating from the correct version of it and um I
like the online version because it does give me editorial notes advising me that some of these check sections have been um changed by uh by ordinance or even by resolution as far as an interpretation.
So Amy, I'm gonna go back to you. The correct version, the upto-date one would be what we have on our screen. >> It should be the first, it should be the first meeting after the first Tuesday, which the first Tuesday in November is always election day and the first
meeting following the first Tuesday where all this would take place. >> And my charter says second Tuesday. >> So does mine. Oh, so I think Tuesday, well, the second Tuesday is a um >> is a carryover from the prior version.
So that should have been clean up then too. >> Yes. >> Great. >> Uh but the correct version, the legal version is what you see on your screen. >> Amy, if you could u make sure because I printed this from the no from well from the agenda, the meeting and agenda
section. If we could just make sure that whatever is printed there, whatever's posted there is what we should be working from, that would be helpful. >> And I'd printed this one from the town website. >> And which version do you have? >> Mine says after the second Tuesday in November.
>> Yeah, the second. Mine says after the first. That's weird. >> I'll get one document and resend it to all of you. >> Okay. Well, I I think it should whatever we're working off should be on our town website. I believe you're working off of the one that's up here right now.
>> He's got second. >> But what I'm saying is if somebody wants to come in for public comment >> that they're probably going to pull it off the >> meeting. Well, this is why we have the Charter Review Commission >> to help straighten all these things out. >> I'm glad we uncovered this. We've been
we've been operating as a government for a long time and everything's been going pretty smooth, but it's nefarious. >> Now we see what's going on. >> So, um I think the correct version is what you see on your screen. >> So, by the next meeting, we'll have
distributed a a copy that we can all say to each other is the same. >> Yes. >> Hallelujah. And as you know, >> we'll call it official because it's the same. >> We are taking notes um of the discussion on the screen. Just to finish up my comments, >> of course you started it.
>> Oh, I would uh say that I'm in favor of the what Anita brought up about the if there's no election to not change the the offices. >> All right. Then can we revisit and if it's automatically the mayor, what's the removal process if that person should
not be continuing on and there was an election? You could also have a moment like I'm going to call it the Jim Adhalt moment now or I had done I did it as well one time where that person says I don't want to be the mayor. That's right. I don't want to be the vice mayor.
>> You automatically got the job because of right >> thoughts on it? >> I don't know how you memorialize that. >> Well, that would I would be a resignation I guess if if if you know >> from the position >> if we could use Mr. Ad Holt's, you know, example.
>> He could just say after the election, I don't wish to do this anymore and it could be resolved that way. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Is it counselor? Uh maybe this solves both things at once. We'll see if other members have momentum around it and
Anita's recommendation. Um is it always within the power of the commission of the uh council to through a majority vote remove a title? It's never happened. >> May not have happened, but did he have the authority to do so?
>> I don't think so. Um, I have looked at your charter. I also have been continuing to peek back at chapter two of your code. There's nothing really in there about town council until you get to compensation. Um, so there is no language as far as I
can tell regarding uh the removal. Um it talks about the uh placement of uh this >> you guys are saying election because it does say elect. I think it's really more of the selection which again people have interpreted that way. So that one we're
going to leave alone. >> Yeah. Um yeah, but we could have um add a sentence that might talk about um >> you know um what vote of confidence or something like that uh to provide for
the removal or the loss of that. I think maybe over time it's just been um the the fact that they don't get reappointed um or reseelected >> today. It's self-governing. I'm I'm I'm going to remain uncomfortable since
we're talking about constitution of our town here to not have an ability of a sitting council to remove a designation of a mayor that they may not want to see serving in that capacity. >> I never thought about it, but you've got a good point. >> And so, if we can get language into that, I could get behind the continuity
issue easily. And I'll bring up another topic here in a second, but we need some recommendation on language that that provides the authority for them on I would say on any it doesn't have to be chronologically predetermined. If they choose to do that, something's going on.
They want to remove it one month after they extend in their second term. They ought to have the authority to do that. >> They they should >> because they are the representative elected officials of our community. Do you want a super majority vote or do you just want a threeperson vote?
>> Majority. >> Me too. I'm majority too. Three people get together on that. It's a it's a will of >> Yeah. >> And with that, um, let's finish the conversation on Ed and Anita's
continuity conversation here about carryovers with a non-election year. Anybody have a heartburn around the concept itself? you okay? >> So, let's try to accomplish both of those. Uh, Amy, with the language you're putting in. And there it is. >> Could you read it to us?
>> Yeah. Take a look at it. >> So, it's a note at this point. In the absence of an election, the mayor shall serve until the next election. The mayor may choose to leave the position with notice to council. The council may vote by a majority to select an alternative council member to serve as mayor.
>> But that's that's different than what you're saying. That's not the removal. That's that's that's the filler in her. I mean, that's somebody Dan decides he's going to Well, no. Dan decides he's going to step down, it goes to Scott. >> Exactly. And >> so what she's trying to language is they
get together the meeting after whatever day it is, whether it's been election or not, and they want to redesate the mayor, they have the authority to do so by charter. I think they deserve that, and they should be responsible for that. >> So it wouldn't automatically default. You don't remove the mayor and then the
vice mayor becomes the mayor. You remove the mayor and reappoint and appoint a new mayor. Is that what you're thinking, Jim? >> Another vote. >> So, >> is that what you're thinking? >> You may want to look at the language in section 4.03 where it does talk about what the role of the vice mayor is. Um, but it is only
in the absence >> or the disability, >> right? Doesn't automatically go to the ascend to that title. It just fills in the functions of that title. So there we are. So a mayor would need
to be re um selected. >> All right. >> Any concerns from anybody on carrying that language forward. >> No, I will just add on that when you talked about the removal of the mayor, I that is comes up heavily in 4.07 that we're lacking that. >> Okay, good. We're going to get to that
further again, but you know how I feel already. So, um, could we have some assistance on the wording that you are leaning towards? >> Um, >> I think what she ended up with was >> Do you want me to read it again? >> Yeah, sure. I I know we had a concern,
but I think Anita talked herself back out of it's not a concern because the vice mayor doesn't obtain the job just because >> in the absence of an election, the mayor shall serve until the next election. The mayor may choose to leave the position with notice to council. The council may vote by majority to select an
alternative council member to serve as mayor. I that that to me reads like those two are linked. So let let's use real time. Dan says I don't want to be the mayor anymore. And um and we're saying that
then that doesn't automatically default to Scott. It means >> they'll select a new mayor. you select a new mayor Scott be being in that position I I wouldn't want to be de facto mayor I' I'd want my fellow
council members >> to appoint you to have their endorsement of course you would but I don't see those I don't see that saying the same thing as if we decided we don't want you anymore we can remove you I I I still
don't think that that's clear maybe I'm just being >> read the section on the removal It doesn't. It's removable. So, we need to add sentence. >> You need to say something about the council may remove the mayor or >> that was my goal. That's good. If it isn't clear on there, then let's get
that on there. >> The council may remove >> the city mayor with a majority vote at any time. So this language that we're putting in there, this is not the final language. Let's think about these are just notes
writers. >> I get it. >> All right. Like it be >> before we leave and go to the vice mayor. Um first of all, make sure everybody's Does anybody have any heartburn with what we're sitting with right now as a recommended? >> Okay. All right. It's been brought up a
couple times about I asked this back to you Nancy about further defining the roles, responsibilities, duties, and authorities of the mayor and vice mayor. >> Um, is that the purview of the charter to further identify and clarify actual
components and responsibilities of position >> procedures? >> Um, I would say yes. Okay. >> Um Amy is pointing out that the policies and procedures that currently uh council works through in fact I know I have a
copy as well does provide um some additional information concerning the roles of each. Um again remember as we talked about there's a tier system you know and charter ordinances policies
procedures. Um, so I'm gonna take a minute and let her >> Yeah, let her look that up and let me continue on just because I think this will work. >> I've heard from two members that and it's been acknowledged by everyone in their own way. The role has significant
impact and value to us um way beyond how the meetings are handled or cutting the ribbons and doing ceremonal whatevers. It's an advocate for the for the community. It's got power in its presence. When you end up in front of other elected officials or other
bureaucrats and you need something done for the island, the mayor title carries all that weight of this is real and is carrying the weight of the folks behind it and you can count on it, depend on it and it'll it'll be as represented. So I I think there is an opportunity for us
to pause on that and see if we want to further enhance >> some of the uh cotification of what we already know is going on. but put it down is if you want this job going forward, it's not only real, it's really defined. So, we'll get to that. That's okay. Coming up next. So, let's finish
the vice mayor real quick on here and then we'll go back pick up both the uh roles and responsibilities. If I can go to 4.03 3 for a minute just so we got process right. Process right. At the first meeting at the second Tuesday or whatever it says in November and the other council the other charters. The
council by a majority vote shall elect from its membership of vice mayor who shall serve as mayor during the absence or disability of the mayor and if a vacancy concerns shall become intramor pursuant to section 4.08 later in the charter. That's obviously replacing.
That's the process we get of vice mayor. Anybody have any heartburn or recommendations around changing the vice mayor um uh votes and and outcomes? >> No. >> All good. >> I I just think you're going to need to clarify the if a vacancy occurs in light
of is is does a vacancy occur if the council removes the mayor? >> Does a vacant I mean are the is that when that triggers the vice mayor becoming the mayor? So we changed something in the previous section that
questions or raises a question for me of what is the vacancy >> because the interim is in there in my mind. It's automatically temporary and it may say they may say I don't I want to think about it till next meeting on how we're going to reorganize our leadership of the of the council. So you're going to handle the meeting Mr.
Safford in so such a time that we get to that point because it's clearly intimate. It's not an elevated position. It's not automatic promotion. It's temporary and the temporary may be 15 minutes while the election's going on. The individual may have to carry the conversation about electing a mayor since they're now in charge of the
meeting. >> I agree with you, Jim. The inter room pretty much nails it. >> Okay. Um I do want to point out that we have to be very careful as to how we're using the words um because there are in 4.06 does discuss vacancies and I
believe in the prior section 4.02 02. It was my interpretation from your conversation that that was just the um deselection or um res not resignation.
See, I got to be careful um giving up of the responsibility during your council meetings uh to run the meeting and to to serve in that capacity, but not an actual um you know removal because that is covered in a different section.
>> Yeah. And I guess if we have continuity so the meeting can function onto the next natural outcome of electing someone appointing someone whatever it is we have the protocols handled that we can actually function but it doesn't automatically end up with a person in a seat just because someone isn't any
longer is how I'm reading all of this. >> I agree you don't want a gap if the pro mayor leaves the vice mayor's got to step in and then at the next council meeting the council would would vote. Okay, good. Duties and responsibility. Let's double back then. What did we find
or what do we have? >> Oh, so in the um the rules of procedure, which at your next meeting, we'll provide you a copy of these as well. Um it is resolution 23-182, which has been amended um in uh 2024,
and it's adopting and amending the town council policies and procedures. Again, think of that hierarchy. And what it does talk about is it talks about the town council mission and job description. The mission is to legislate
and police the powers of the town, including establishing boards, commissions, and committees to perform all duties and obligations imposed on the municipality by law. That would be state statute. to ensure by strategic planning and clear policies that the
unique and natural characteristics of the islands are preserved. To supervise the town manager and town attorney to perform all actions for the welfare of the residents, owners, business persons, and guests of the island in adherence to
the town charter, state, and federal law. So, that's all consistent. It just kind of takes your charter language and gives it a little bit more content. Um review and this now the next section is functions, powers and duties. Review
and interpret the comp the comprehensive plan and conduct public meeting hearings as needed to make changes. Review and interpret the land development code and conduct public hearings as needed to make changes. Conduct hearings regarding
land use matters. Introduce and approve charter amendments for adoption by referendum. That's by state law. Um, appoint a town manager, appoint a town attorney, introduce and enact ordinances. Couple more things here. Um,
introduce and adopt resolutions, review and adopt the operations and capital improvement budgets. Review and approve budget amendments. Create special assessment districts as may be needed. Establish advisory committees as needed.
Review and approve interlocal agreements. to review and approve contracts with the town above the threshold limit allowed to to the town manager. Elect a mayor and vice mayor. Perform any other duties that are lawfully defined by the charter and
Florida statutes. >> Council council >> and then there's some council member requirements. So that really is much broader. And again, think of the hierarchy. So you've got a charter that kind of sets forth some parameters. You
would then perhaps have ordinances. You only have one right now on compensation. Then you could have resolutions that do interpretations. And then now we have policy and procedures that further define that. What I read is not inconsistent with the language that you
currently have. >> But I still there's a gap. What is the mayor's responsibilities? >> I I in addition to being a council person. >> I'm going to be I'm going to give you a perfect example. When when we went through that hurricane, I thought Ray Murphy had the power of this town.
>> It's because the title mayor sounds powerful. >> Correct. But the when you go through all the responsibilities and the other charters of the other surrounding committees, you know, the mayor is selected by the council. He serves as a chairperson. He's a ceremonial head of
the government. He executes documents as required by the charter. explicitly no administration authority. It's a clear separation between the mayor and the town manager. And I don't see that anywhere in this charter >> where it it is not in the charter. And
the reason it is not is because there's a whole separate section um in state law as implemented by local law by our code of ordinances. uh when there's a state of emergency, the council basically gives the power
and the authority to the town manager. And the reason for that is if you're in a state of emergency, you're not really creating policy. You are implementing trying to get people in a safe environment trying to Yeah. Exactly. And
you've got to have one point of contact rather than five people having to meet in the sunshine and make a decision as to where the ice is going to go and um you know is there going to be internet access. So there is that delegation and
part of I think it's what ISO there's there's a um a chain of command basically. So regardless of what your title might be, your formal title in a state of emergency, you kind of throw that out the window. And the person who
is central command based on our our uh state of emergencies is our town manager. And he pretty much um can, you know, do what needs to be done because it is a state of emergency. He has additional power for purchasing. he
might have to purchase something beyond his >> No. And I I agree with you and I'm going to go back to that what is the mayor's that's not the mayor's responsibility to lead an emergency. Right. And I think where the charter is lacking and it is stated in other charters with other
communities is specifically what the mayor is responsible for. >> Okay. >> You know something I'll give you an >> Let me just um add if I can. Are those other municipalities that have a strong mayor versus a council manager type form
of government? Because that is a key distinction. >> Absolutely. And if you and when you go through here, I've got them all listed. Santael and Marco are very similar in the styles. Okay. I will tell you that Marco is leaning towards going to a voted appointed mayor, but right now
Santa and Marco have got the same um protocols that we do right now. Just just so you know, even though it is an elected mayor, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are a strong mayor. That's >> right. >> They are just elected for a particular role. So,
>> it's up to you all to make a recommendation if you feel it needs to be changed. Um but but just bear in mind that details matter here. >> Sure. >> I don't think there's a recommendation change of structure or power authority.
When I hear committee member recommending is do we need to flush out more for emphasis and and and impact the role that our mayor in our town manager form of government actually is responsible for and held accountable to.
>> And this is a great opportunity to do that if if that's the will of the commission. This would be the appropriate place to go ahead and specifically identify what the mayor will do. >> And again, a bottom line for the residents is the mayor is the voice of the town.
the um the mayor leads communications, the town manager leads operation, the town manager manages the response and in the charter is where we go publicly to understand who runs the town and that's why I think it needs to be clearly identified in the charter what the
mayor's responsibilities are. >> So Michelle, these are the wonderful parts about being the chair. Would you mind um bringing us some draft language so we can use it as carryover business for our next meeting? Absolutely. that we can read into the um recommendation list here and then we can debate that a
bit and have something to look at that you feel captures your spirit around this. >> I think we all agree and the stuff I've gotten from Beverly says the same thing. this is a good job for us to if it's done the right way it can mean a lot >> and I think the unintended consequence on the positive side is somebody that wants it
>> needs to know it's not the gavl >> it's the behavior it's the activity it's the attitude it's commitment >> and in those regards the mayor special to us >> language >> okay >> gotcha good for >> everybody okay with that movement all right >> just hold on >> okay we're going to pause there for a minute
>> yeah because we're trying >> everything I'm typing up here >> yeah good >> so uh we'll bring additional language for further discussion uh of the role of the mayor. >> Nancy, could I just ask you a question? I just wanted to uh during COVID, the Santael Council
authorized Kevin Ruain, who was then the mayor, >> to act above and beyond what this ceremonial lead is. And I don't know how they did that, but they did. and and he he was,
you know, like handinhand with the town, their city manager at the time. And I just don't know if maybe that needs to be memorialized somewhere for us as well. >> Um, >> so do you want that um in a permanent type situation because it was probably
as part of their um >> it was it was an emergency. It was emergency. Yes. Much like what what Michelle has pointed out >> in the emergency declaration, council could could do whatever they want that you know the mayor will have somewhat of a additional role uh working with the
town manager during a state of emergency that that is possible um as well. >> Yeah, >> if if you want to do that, you could do it on a case-byase basis as you have these emergencies or you could put some language in here.
But if you put the language in here, I would still want you to be a little bit flexible. Um, because if you were to say that the mayor would have a concurrent responsibility with the town manager, that might not be feasible uh under one
particular type of of emergency. So the recommendation could be that when state of emergencies are announced that the role of the mayor and possibly the vice mayor or the council would be clearly
identified. >> Yeah. So I want to always ask this the other way um because thinking about operating in circumstance and situations we can't predetermine here. Is there anything in our charter that restricts council from empowering a mayor
accordingly in a situation that they declare an emergency and with the breadth and depth of responsibilities they want to assign in that particular moment? >> I don't think >> because there's nothing restricting then why do we have to explicitly empower it? >> They already have the authority by default because it's not restricted.
>> Yeah, Amy brings up a good point. I mean, you could consider just addressing it in their policies and procedures in the event of a state of emergency. Uh the mayor, the vice mayor, and council members shall be provided or identified uh to have certain duties and
responsibilities. >> I would personally like as much flexibility at our elected officials as possible without the charter being a misinterpretation or inhibitor for them doing it. So, if it doesn't say they can't and the policies allow them to do it, then do it. >> Sure. >> Yeah. So I don't necessarily think the
change is necessary. I'm looking for anybody else. But to make something clear also puts boundaries around it, >> right? >> By implication, >> right? >> You okay with that, counselor? >> I'm I'm fine with it. Um >> you don't see anything in here that
would prevent our council from acting accordingly? >> No. >> Okay. >> Um do we need to do you want to bring that back for a discussion again or we we're done with that? Unless somebody has an idea that extemporaneously comes up between the meetings, I'd say bring
it back up, but not as a formal assignment because I don't see any. You might want to uh recommend advising that the uh resolution 23-182 provide that during state of
emergencies. Um but I also will need to >> as an annotation, but not part of the charter. >> Not part of the charter. Okay, cool. Um, I would also I mean if you're going to go in that direction, I would also confer with our town manager um and our um Mr. Yazo who is in responsible for
our emergency management response to see if maybe there's already something in there that that talks about how we react in the state of an emergency. >> I would imagine they've delineated responsibilities. >> Pretty clear, I would think. >> Most likely, yes. So, we don't want to
overstep that. >> Section 4.04. 4. Let's go on to prohibitions. I think that is >> so there's nothing else we need to do. >> Nothing else you need to do at this point that I think is obvious. All right. Subsection A. Neither the council nor any individual member of the council shall in any manner dictate the
employment or removal of any employee other than the town manager and town attorney. No individual member of the council shall give orders to any officer or employee of the town. Recommendations for the improvements in the town government over operation shall come
through the town manager, but each member of the council shall be free to discuss or recommend improvements to the town manager and the council is free to direct the town manager to implement specific recommendations for improvement in town government operations.
Violations of this section of the charter constitute malfeasants within the meaning of section 100-361 Florida statutes and as may be amended. >> So I can comment a little bit. I know we've gone through a recall that primarily
>> we all understand this one. Yes. >> Yes. However, I will tell you that in a lot of communities, um depending on the nature of the interaction, sometimes town managers will allow um council
members uh to to meet with their staff. Um however, other communities, it it's an absolute um implementation of the charter language. So >> I would suggest share that with you
>> former mayor. You can comment us more. It's the culture that drives that relationship with everyone. >> That's exactly it. >> Clearly understood. We know the boundaries. When Vice Mayor Adhole was working with the folks during the the key questions of key staffers, he wasn't
intimidating or insinuating anything was going on. He was illuminating the capabilities we had and how to best use them. And I didn't see the town manager objecting to I should be the one doing those videos. just seems to me that's a natural thing and the more defined it comes the more artificial it becomes.
>> I think it's all it I mean over the over the history of the town it's been completely the relationship of that council with that town manager. So there were town managers I'll use Don Stillwell again because Don Stillwell
wanted everybody to interact. He wanted you to interact. Um, there was another town manager who did not want you to talk to anybody but him at any given point in time. Period. Everything had to go. I don't know how he got in. >> Any initials on that one or you're all good with that? >> Any what?
>> Any initials on that? >> No. No, he's still around. Uh, and so I think it just it is the culture and the relationship that exists amongst the council members and the staff. And you know sometimes that cordiality
um at least in my experience was always very productive. I I I never worked with a town manager who said you have to only meet with AB or C or me. I it just I never did. >> Yeah. >> Uh but that that's their prerogative. I
mean that is their prerogative. So >> that that is correct and that is the charter language that creates that >> that division. Um, and just, you know, an example would be that if you do have a large land use project coming through,
um, you're probably going to want to speak with the town's planner for an understanding of what's actually going to come before you. Does the town manager have to sit in on each one of those meetings? He can. He absolutely can. Or they could delegate and say,
"Sure, go ahead and have that conversation." >> Yep. >> Yep. And I find continuing on our current town manager, his willingness to include us in conversations with his staff, adding value on both sides of the conversation is completely obvious and very productive. So it continues on.
>> I agree. >> Anybody have any heartburn on that language? Everybody's adults. It says what you shall not do. The rest of it, you should find a way. >> All right. Section I'm sorry, B. >> You should find a way. I love that. No
present or former elected town official shall hold any compensated appointed office or employment with the town until one year after the expiration of that official's elected term. >> Makes sense.
>> So one the way that this has um what I guess the policy maybe is one way to say it. In some other communities in the state of Florida, um there have been elected officials who create positions so that once their term is up,
they could slide into that position. And I think that this language is attempting to prohibit that type of activity. >> Good language. I would ask this one interpretation of it though since we're all living through a new world order and that it's very clear about one year after expiration of the official elected
term. So, we've had recalls take place here. Their elected term is still not expired, although they're not on the council any longer. >> So, uh does their one year start in November or immediately upon the time they um a year from November, I should
say, or the time that they were with removed? >> I would interpret it as the time they were removed because they've officially they've become essentially unelected. uh I or that their their vacated their position >> their elected term was terminated.
>> Let's change that somehow to take elected term out of there and put on something that will say when they are no longer serving in that role that's when the year starts. >> Sure. We'll get some defendable terms here in a minute that'll help us with that.
>> So after the Cessation of their role, >> not sedition. Cessation >> it's a whole other conversation. >> It is what do you want to say? Service. Service might be better. Yeah, there you go. Their duties may have never been done.
>> Okay, >> everybody okay with that adjustment? >> Sure. Nobody. All right, let's move on to 4.05 >> compensation subchapter A. Effective April 1st, 2016. Base pay for the mayor will be 19,200 annually and
council members will be 16,800 annually as compensation for their services. compensation shall be revised annually annually based on across the board adjustments budgeted for staff and administered at the same time as town employees.
>> So your code of ordinances in section 2-9 provides all council members except the mayor shall be paid $1,200 per month. The mayor shall be paid $1,400 per month. >> All right. So, let me draw you to the
document that I passed out as a result of some of the good work that will and his team have put together here. And I want to propose something significantly different than what this says today and then we can kick around any iterations and your own points of view. Let's start
with on the first page, it reiterates the mayor's salary of 192 council member 168. And I realize the public doesn't have this document, so I'll read some of the important parts on here. colas um with the exception of the last two years were not administered across the board
to the staff. They had no didn't have a process, didn't have the salary ranges, didn't have procedures in place, didn't have reviews, didn't have accountability, all of that didn't happen. So except the last two years, these um automatic increases for council may have not taken place because there
wasn't any goals whether by intent or otherwise it is what it is. The last two years there have been 1.8 and 24 2.6% 6% in 25. So if you go down to and now we're going to start to get into some of the work of what the positions are worth in the open
market so to speak. What are other uh similar situated communities paying the folks or you just go to the bottom of this page and say what would the normal colas be over the last 10 years had they occurred under the inflations and all that. You can see what's down at the bottom. the mayor would be instead of
192 217 and the council members says 168 would be 185. Obviously there there there has been some minor adjustments to their base but it's very small as I talked about before as a result of the two colas. Um and then there's there's other best
practices in here from other communities and the distillation for my recommendation or conversation would be something along these lines. Um, I would suggest that we remove the actual figures from the charter
and there are best practices out there that include on a bianual basis, every other year basis, the establishment of what we'll call a blue ribbon committee, uh, made up of appointees by the current sitting council that will do the work
that's been done here in very quick order, be a lot more thorough, than that to recommend back to the council a salary adjustment for the council vice mayor mayor should they be different from each other and that'd be up to committee to do it. The council then
would take the responsibility of having that conversation in open and public court based on real facts, real data, real salary ranges, real uh um other community metrics and would by ordinance then adjust compensation as a vote of their own and
that would take place at the next elected council's um whenever that election took place would be a new salary ranges. So they would serve out their terms at the current ones they have. Couple things that I like about it. Removes the staticness in the charter of what they should be paid. It
puts a contemporaneous analysis that should be done like we would all want done if we're in the open market being compensated for what we're doing by a a body that is appointed to be separate and distinct from the council and only bring recommendations. It then allows the council to have that debate in front
of the public on their own compensation and has therefore included in the budget accordingly and they can choose to accept, reject, modify, do whatever they choose to do for their compensation. So that's one bucket. The other bucket does
is it would allow those moments and we can reflect on three years ago now where think of a situation where most of our council people have some small business or employed otherwise where they are um no longer able to carry on their
compensation, personal compensation. They're giving the town 100% plus of their effort to get us back where it is when they could easily go to Home Depot or Lowe's or somewhere and get work and fill in that time to backfill their compensation, but chose to give it up. Therefore, that committee would have the
opportunity to do uh in context compensation um enrichment for that moment only if they make a recommendation to cover for the reality of what they're doing for the town and what they're not able to do for themselves by by serving us. It would be arms length again be a
recommendation be fully debated in public forums and would have the vote and recommendation of the council self to do. And then the third piece that we don't have in here I'll let let this conversation take its place is we do have counselors um that from time to
time either donate back or do not take their salaries uh directly. We don't have a mechanism in there by which they can reject their salary and just have that put back into the into the town's coffers because they don't choose to take it and it can be just part of the operating income of the town. And I
think we need to clean that up since we're in the compensation thing. So there's a starting point for a dialogue and debate around this and I'm interested in your comments. This has been done I'll close with other uh communities fairly successfully and it does put some accountability in the
process every other year. Anybody want to start? >> I'll start with you, Jim. I have very strong feelings about the compensation for the council. Um, primarily because
uh it shouldn't, in my opinion, be referred to as a salary because they are not employees. It shouldn't be uh it is compensation for their time but they they are servants of our community. It
is public service. It's not a job. And um and so when I shift my and and look, I am actually the person who um who got compensation for the town almost to the loss of a very good friend, John
Mhalland, because he vehemently opposed it. Vehemently opposed it. And at the time I was 35 or 36 years old and I was thinking about and you know my other council members were in their 60s and I
was thinking do do we have any way for a young person who is working to be able to serve this community? I mean even if it was a mom who had to buy pizza for the babysitter to stay with the kids. That's that was my whole argument. How
do we compensate their time for their so that they can serve? Not what am I going to pay them for the job that they're going to do because it's a it's a very different um frame of reference in thinking about this. And I still feel
that way. I still feel like when you get involved in this, I mean, look, I know Scott's business, you know, went to hell in a handbag after the storm. everybody's did. Y >> um but we all continued to serve in whatever capacity we were in and I don't
think the salary would have had a bit to do with anybody's commitment in that regard. >> Um nor do I think a salary could have compensated anybody for that loss that they were that they were taking. So I don't I don't know. Um I mean I I know
you're looking at this from a very objective viewpoint and that's super helpful. Uh I'm looking at it from a historical and a service viewpoint where I see the role of a council member, mayor, vice mayor as public servant, not
as employee of mine. >> Other thoughts, please. >> I agree with that completely. Um accept your conclusion that the um the the the office of being Oh, excuse me.
>> Yep. Sorry. Thanks. want him to hear you because >> being elected to the council is an honor. >> Absolutely. >> Way beyond uh uh levels of compensation. It it is as an honor to serve without a
salary. Um or without any compensation. Um I had that opportunity to serve in Oak Park west of Chicago and our salary was zip like Santaels. Um
uh it it in some opinions such as you're expressing that means that some people would not choose to run because they couldn't afford to. I understand that. But I also believe that there is some
combination that if if it would be a detriment to having qualified candidates who would run, then we'd know it. If nobody comes forward, then we'll know to add salary. But I think my opinion
would be that the salary doesn't need to be adjusted off and on. Here's the money that we have in the budget. Um, and uh, it can be modified in the future if there's some emergency, but I would I
would not personally like to support um, the cola approach. >> Yeah, let me just double click on that, can I'll get to you next. Um, so there's compensation in the charter now. >> Yep. It has not been adjusted
since 2016 as it's been required to do with the subargument that we didn't do what you would expect would be done with our staff evidently to put the colas in there. >> So if if just want to make sure I understand since there's salaries in there today,
are you recommending those be removed and this becomes a service uh commitment and not a salaried one? Do we have to do one or the other just baseline from what's already in the charter? >> I don't believe that um we could make that change now.
>> We we've we've done this and that's um don't don't take away my salary, you know. >> So, you're comfortable with what's in there now, but uh >> I would not I would not want to put in colas. >> Okay. Uh, so the colas that were in there that were promised last 10 years,
what's your feeling around rebasing those on where they should have been with the commitment from the charter 10 years ago? So they're adjusted to current market value with the colas >> under no other reason other than it already said we would do that. >> I know. Well, >> but Jim, the the cola is for employees.
>> Okay. >> They're not employees and council members are not employees. Now, there could be there could be a new a new element here because council members now also receive health insurance benefits and they didn't before. And let me tell
you, I pushed hard for that and with various town attorneys and managers and was always told that they could not be given because they were not town employees. They were elected officials. >> Yeah. Other communities do that for sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um I mean I'm glad they have that. That's wonderful. I think
that also adds to a potential allure especially in light of rising costs of health care to run for council. You know that an incentive it does it does it's 40%. Yeah. >> Absolutely. So but I don't think that
cola belongs in the on the >> I agree if that doesn't belong. What I'm trying to nail everybody down at least on an opinion is what about the last 10 years where it was promised and not provided. >> It was promised to employees. It wasn't promised to the town council. Right. Ah, compensation shall be revised annually
based on adjustments budgeted for staff and administr administered at the same time as town employees. Town employees were given raises. They weren't given colas. >> Wow. Okay, let's hear what Ed has to say. I always enjoy this moment. >> Great. Um,
boy, there's a lot to cover there. First of all, I believe that the council should be compensated and the mayor should be compensated a little bit more than the council based on the the mayor having more duties. I >> agree. >> Um cost of living adjustments
are exactly what they are. They're cost of living adjustments and I think the council should receive those uh just like employees do. Uh Amy gave us some documents from when the charter first started that I read on
a ship in the middle of the ocean. And I seem to remember that at the time the compensation was voted down by the town citizens. Am I remembering that correctly? >> Uh there are other communities that
that's just happened in. Was she giving you comparable municipalities? >> No, it was what of the minute. I'm sorry. This was this part of the minutes and the from the 10 years ago charter review. >> Yes. >> Okay. What did I send you? It the town when it
was initiated, the town council did not have any compensation whatsoever. >> Right. >> And and I believe it was as part of the charter. It could not be initiated until uh so I was initiating it. I had to stand for a reelection before I could
initiate that that clause. And I don't remember why, but I do remember that. And um and then I did Did they have to vote? Did the town vote on that at the time? I don't remember. I don't remember. >> I know we were in the throws of government light. >> Yep.
>> And that was the definition of the town. >> We don't want it to be big budget town, you know. Sorry, Ed. You're >> No, that's just fine. >> Continue on. >> That was just Well, no. Well, that was just basically it. That's the history. I'm wondering how it eventually got in
the charter that the council and the mayor was was compensated when it appeared. And I know that we've lost some records through storms that it was voted down at one point. >> It might be resolutions. Well, and this may be an item that ends up because it
does require referendum to do some of these kind of changes, which is why I want to have the conversation that both people are watching now and can watch over time. >> I I also feel strongly that these should be compensated positions and I think they should be compensated positions in the world of reality under which they
operate and live in the amount of effort that our legislative body now takes to continue the responsibilities notwithstanding all putting this all together. It had to be heroic and giving birth to something obviously. Um but it is so complicated now to fight for the
resources, the attention and the due diligence that's required to have things done. Um that I think we want to attract people that see this in addition to love for service and we're all sitting here. We sit on several boards. There's no compensation for those and that's not
the reason we do it. But you're stepping up to a whole another level new level commitment when you're an elected official both in the responsibilities and the expectations. Um there's no there's no um sunrise in and sunsets. They're 24-hour jobs. You're constantly under examination and you should be. And
they also have to advocate much more diligently and aggressively for the things that we deserve and need to have now than the world ever predicted 10 years ago. So I think it needs to be compensated. I think it needs to be compensated at a current rate. And that's why I'm trying to not fix it in the charter by saying this is a salary,
but have people have to recommend and may may recommend every year no changes. That's up to the group. I'm just trying to get it out of the finitness of what we're locked into and putting the reality of what if it's nothing changed at all of what we believe we ought to at least talk about and consider and council can vote themselves down anytime
they want based on whether it's political pressure, peer issues or or just other situations that town finds itself in. I would think if the town attorney or the city clerk finds, >> you know, how how the number the salary
got in the charter >> that would kind of question, but I don't think that that there should be a salary amount in the charter. >> That's right. I agree with that. >> Okay, >> Michelle, can you give us any reaction you've got so far?
>> Got it. One thing I'm learning is there's a lot of information that's not in the charter. Can clarify they council members get insurance. Can some What else do they get other than the salary? >> Insurance reimbursement of expenses, >> reimbursements for travel and things
like that. >> And insurance they are they can pay through the town or they get it paid. The town pays for their insurance. >> Paid. Correct. >> No, we we participate in the same as as the employees. It it comes out of our paychecks, but
we're we're eligible to get it, which is an advantage, I'll be honest, because it's way cheaper than outside, you know, Obamacare or whatever. So, >> Oh, absolutely. And what percentage is the town paying of the total premium
>> that I don't know >> that I'm going to guess it's just like we're an employee of the town. So, whatever. >> That's what I'm asking. It's >> it's nothing different, right? >> No, but I I but again, >> but we we just had last month we just went the cost went up substantially for
for both uh the town and for individ individuals participating it and you don't we can opt out. So if your spouse has a way better plan, you don't have to opt in, >> right? >> So I I I think this is that's fantastic. It's good news. I think it's a
additional benefit. the pay. When I look at Jim's recommendations, I fully support it. It's they're not getting paid basically. You're not getting paid anything for all of the hours that you put in. >> If I can make sure you do not sit there and track every mile and expense and
everything that you do. So, I would like to say that I, you know, fully recommend, >> you know, the the salary increases that you have with the increases. I'm unsure whether or not they should be in the charter or not. that one. And >> well, let me let me give you my I' I've
done this now for two years. The compensation for for what we're doing given the age that we're in the in with the social media and the instantaneous responses and everything else. This is way more
hours than it was 10 years ago. >> Of course. Um, now I I I think for sure there should be a cola because today's dollar is not what 2016's dollar was. So I mean I fully support the co the cola
increase just as it says in the charter every year it's a 1%. If we have really bad inflation it it should it should be what what the the dollars in 2016 should be equal to the dollars in 2026. So the
the cola increase should absolutely be in there. >> Um >> and I just love >> but one thing what one thing that you had brought up uh Mr. Chairman is that the council decides what what their salary is.
>> No way. >> Let me be clear. It's a recommendation from the committee. The council approves it or not. >> That is political suicide. That it's I don't need any more stress deciding what my salary is. You see what's going on in Cape Coral. My recommendation is is what's going on in Naples. Naples has a
blue ribbon committee, right? That that >> recommends >> that recommends it's seven citizens there. Yeah, >> that's my my point. Maybe I wasn't clear. It is a recommendation, but the council has the authority to adopt that recommendation as part of the >> on Okay. Hey, man. >> Oh, no, no, no. It wouldn't be any of
that. >> But >> yeah, >> I know. But I look I I think if if you try to get a blue blue ribbon committee to look at your salary, you do the cola, right? So they they we we say every
year, every three years, every four years, what whatever it is that the blue ribbon committee looks at what what the salaries are, what the going rate is, what your job responsibilities are, because the the the job right now for us on council is way more involved than it
was 5 years ago pre-torrm. >> Isn't that the same role that the budget committee plays? That is that they look at >> the bud the budget committee is not looking what what you should pay. they they take recommendations from each staff member and set and say, "Hey,
look, public works, these guys should be making this this and then they propose their budget to to the the budget committee." So, it's it's it's done by each silo. >> But shouldn't that be >> So, I I think there should be a blue ribbon silo that just looks at our compensation. >> That's what I'm recommending. It is
completely it's completely arms length in the work, the background, the analysis, the recommendation. It has to come for the adoption of the budget through council anyway. So, it's going to be in there and it will be delineated. So you won't be able to escape the reality of what a number is, but you have nothing to do with deriving or creating that number. You're just a
recipient of it through that party. >> Yeah. I I don't want to come up with the number that >> nobody will. Yeah. Council appoints though the blue ribbon committee. >> They do. >> Yes. >> So in a sense they are controlling. >> Well, yes. Yes. And no. >> Well, it's it's just the blue ribbon
committee would be just just as as this board is. You you take >> applications >> take applications and >> with public comment >> with public comment and you're not >> Yeah. >> You're there's no way with with five council people they're going to get all their cronies on there. I mean you're you're look you're looking at the best
of the best from from the city. You're looking at you know business owners. You're looking at people just just like you guys. I mean we >> people would apply for it and and we we would select those just as any other committee.
I think this is a fundamental right turn and in a in a good direction or I wouldn't be talking about it this way. >> And Scott, the only um debate I would have on the terms for apps. It'll end up in the same place. >> I think colas are wildly um uncalculable and undefendable. I think the market
conditions create a lot of equity in that. And I'd like to leave the automatic out and put the recommendation back in because circumstances and situations could make a much different adjustment than a cola, >> you know. Mr. Chairman, maybe maybe we the blue ribbon committee meets at the
end of the budgetary process. We see how much money that the town can afford because look, I I don't want to make what whatever when the town when the town just doesn't have the budget, right? That's that's not part of my service. But at the same time, you know, maybe that's that's when we do it during the budget season. The blue blue ribbon
committee meets that year and and recommends and you you start off with the baseline, right? You start off with whatever you have in your document here, your 20, 24, whatever it is, and the blue ribbon committee says, you know what, the it's it's been a it's been a
tough year. I don't we don't recommend any any increase. Or they say, hey, look, we're getting clobbered by inflation. Uh we recommend whatever or or the jobs change. We recommend this. >> Well, here's what else in my mind that does. It illuminates the reality in the marketplace, whether they whether they
recommend an increase or not. Um, many occasions we've had in our history where we had to step people up to get to the point we wanted them to get to where the market based compensation was true. They may say this year we can't. They may say let's go a third, a third, a third. That's the beauty of having those recommendations and coming in through
the budget process you're talking about the finance committee and will >> they can make that back. But in the end, council has to prove the budget which would include that. >> Right. But Anita, the first thing you said was, "I want to attract younger talent." That was that was the first thing you
said. And look, most of us are near retirement age. We we've got to attract >> and we know who those people are. We need to attract more talent. If you if you have no compensation, there's there's no way. >> Y >> you've got to you've got to have as as
Jim said, some market rate that's equal to what the other towns do. Now, do you have the public? Yes. You you know darn well you're not going to make six figures being being a public servant. But there has to be enough compensation with with the insurance and
everything else to make it so when a a a person says, "Hey, I'm I'm thinking of running." Their spouse will say, "You're no way." But they could say, "Hey, at least I'm getting this. We can keep the business going. You can help." But there's got to be some compensation there. and it it's got to be attracted
for for the generation behind us to keep attracting. >> I I don't disagree at all that the council should be compensated. I've thought that from day one. I agree completely. I do not think that the council should be treated as employees. And I think if you go back and read that
one sentence, it says, "Compensation shall be revised annually based on an acrosstheboard adjustments budgeted for staff and administered at the same time as town employees." Doesn't say as that like employees. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Agree. >> It's I I don't I don't disagree at all with the compensation. It's just to me it's it's not equal. It's not equal. >> Well, But inflation's inflation. Cost of living is cost of living. I mean, I I
think whatever we decide or whatever you decide, I'm sorry. You should have some some type of either a blue ribbon committee making a recommendation or if you if you if you want to leave the human element out of it, just leave it as cola. That's my recommendation. You guys you
guys take what what you want. >> Yeah. I I just I don't I don't prescribe personally to automatics and I just don't think they ever reflect the data and the analysis that should go into it. The real life circumstances that you exist in I I just think those automatics are underwhelming, disappointing and
people believe you don't deserve them because they're automatic. >> Right. 2% when I when I know for a fact inflation was at 7%. Exactly. I mean >> come on. >> But at the same time maybe the answer is is a blue ribbon committee. So maybe you you guys should look into that a little
bit further. It's Naples does have it. It's in their town charter, I believe. >> And I'd be glad to continue if the will of my partners here continue to flush this out with some language we could look at between now and when we get to as long as we're not philosophically on a different page. Uh creating some
process that would be different than embedding it in the charter and therefore having either static or artificially enhanced each year. Something more purposeful than that. Anybody fundamentally disagree that approach? >> No. I guess I logistically I'd like to know how it takes place. So yeah, that
this would be a change to the charter. So people would have to vote on it, Nancy. >> So it I I think this opens up Pandora's box that you don't imagine yet. But you know what? Fort Myers Beach has changed. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe maybe this is like
>> I know Pandora's box been opened a few times out here. We'll see if there's another one, >> but it might be empty. This might be something those people we got the right people doing the right things. >> I hope so. >> Ed, do you have any concern about chat? >> I don't. >> I I would like to just add I I see the
direction that we're getting. I think Amy's um >> capturing it. >> Capturing it very well. Um I just wanted to comment there was reference made to a budget committee. I think that committee serves under the town manager. >> Audit committee. >> Oh, the audit committee. I'm sorry.
Okay. >> Which is the arms length. Did you mean audit or budget? Audit committee has nothing to do with >> No, no, I didn't mean I mean I meant the when the budget's being prepared, not the audit committee. >> So I guess what I'm pointing out is that the budget being prepared is under the opaces of the town manager who is
appointed by the council. So there could be the appearance of some kind of conflict. >> That's why we have the committee making the recommendations. He should not she should not be involved in the recommendation process but the reaction process. And the other comment I wanted to make in response to Ed's question of
how the numbers got into the charter, there is resolution 16-13, which was a resolution of the town council certifying the results of the referendum that was held on March 15 of 2016
regarding certain charter amendments. And it was uh voted upon. I mean, the language that you have in your charter was the language that was on the ballot and it was approved. It was a yes for
approval by 53% 53.71%. >> Um, and then rejected by 46.29%. >> Well, I know you're only 30 years old then when that was done, but I'm sure you remember it. And >> no, 2016 I was on the council at the
time. I uh I completely understand your caution >> and I think that's our responsibility to create that dust. Let's see where it clears up. >> Thank you. That was a great conversation. >> That's exactly why we're here and I think that's why the people are sitting on here than ours. Very well done. Okay,
let's move on to 4.06. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I got one more. Uh B, let's make sure they get paid for. The council may provide for reimbursement of actual expenses incurred by its members while performing their official duties.
I never once did it. I should have, but I never once did it. And >> here's your moment to tell us all. >> That's all outlined in the policies and procedures what you can do and it's food and all of that stuff, isn't it? It's in the policies and procedures. Yeah. >> I It doesn't Good kid. Yeah. >> I've yet to file an expense report.
>> Yeah. I never did. >> Sign them and be held accountable to them. >> I wonder if you can go back. >> Uh the statute I'm checking right here and No, you really can't. >> Kidding. >> Reimbursement. >> 4.06 6 vacancies. All right, this should be continue to be interesting as we work
through section four here. The official the office, I'm sorry, of a member of the council shall become vacant upon the member's inability to fulfill the duties of the office, resignation or removal from office as authorized by law or this charter.
Any other vacancy variables that you think ought to be included in 4.06 that this doesn't address >> a vacancy the office does not it's not listed in here. It's not defined. >> It's what? >> It's not defined. >> Well, >> if I can add to what Michelle's saying,
that is an issue that has been discussed in other cities, other com um charter review commissions. Um and then ultimately it's whatever the municipality or town um believes your charter to say. the issue becomes um if
there's like a temporary um if one of the elected officials goes out of town for a conference or something like that, is that the creation of a vacancy? Well, there's nobody sitting there. So, some people have interpreted that to be a vacancy. Others have said that it's the
um not being seen for a certain amount of time, which could be because of a medical emergency or just could be that someone is not is not coming. Um I think that that kind of goes to the absences
and whether or not absences are excused or not. Um with the um CO co introduced us to remote participation. Um the attorney general's office does have uh authority saying that you can uh be
absent from a uh council meeting or an elected uh or appointed position uh for extenduating circumstances and the the definition of extenduating circumstances goes back to the local government. We try to announce those at, you know, the
various meetings, but I think there's just kind of been a assumption that the person has a good reason. We would not delve into the extent of any type of medical emergency. We wouldn't even say that it's a medical emergency and that's
the reason they're gone. Um, for privacy issues. Um, so that's where we are. I agree. >> So, Michelle, tell tell me more then because resignation is obviously a vacant. Uh so yeah, death, resignation or removal from office. >> Those are clear. Yeah, >> correct. Forfeiture of office under
section 4.07. >> Yeah, that's a vacancy. >> Yep. Y >> loss of residency or failure to maintain qualifications. >> Qualifications. Yeah. >> Failure to assume office within 30 days of election or appointment. >> Right. >> And judicial determination of
ineligibility or vacancy. >> Yeah. So if you weren't certified to be eligible, you know, you're elected. Yeah. >> Correct. And again, you to your point, we can define short-term gaps. In other words, 60 days. I need to be out for 60 days. I've got to get surgery beyond
that appointment or vacancy. >> Or how about my house isn't livable uh because it was destroyed in a in a storm and I'm I'm living elsewhere for a year and a half or whatever. >> Yeah. And I Anita, you know what? And I'm gonna bring this up because it came
up before. I always try to manage on patterns. COVID was an incident and I'm gonna call hurricane. We all have to move off the island incident. And if those happen, we're gonna have to do things differently. >> I see what you're saying. >> But I if we're going to if we're going to rewrite this charter to what happened
for Ian, I wouldn't be living here. >> Yeah. >> And the same thing with CO. It's just put it up as an incident. Don't use those as examples in >> So boil this down then for us, Michelle. Where and exactly do what changes are you recommended and inserted where
because we haven't got forger of office yet? That's obviously a vacancy. >> Yeah. >> But above that, are you suggesting additional language in 4.06? Yes. Okay. >> Let's let the uh town clerk and councelor catch that. >> We missed it. >> No problem. It's coming back to you right now. >> If you go
>> go to her document. >> Go to my document. >> Okay. Hold on. Hold on. >> Yeah. We we're trying to get vacancies need to be defined. That's exactly what we're doing. Yeah, that's where we are. >> So, and I this is a sterile language,
but I felt that they had best practices. So, there's five of them that you would consider under 4.06 >> top of the page >> six. >> Okay. Now I I'm continuing on the same subject
is >> No, hold on a second. I want to get them to react to your criteria, please. >> You got those five Amy on the top of the page. >> Okay. >> What would you like me to do about them? >> Just hang on one second. As long as you've got in front of you. I want to
hear any reaction from the committee on any challenges to these more delineated criteria. >> It's excellent. Anybody have anything they're going that's just crazy that won't work or you're missing this big one? >> No, I think she's clarified the meaning
of it. >> One through six. Okay. >> All right. >> Are you folks? I'm sorry. >> It should be Is it not one through five? >> One through five. That's one. >> I'm sorry. One through five, right? >> Okay. Yeah. So, um the language that we're seeing is that um consider
language saying a vacancy >> in the office. >> Oh, wait a minute. That's different. >> Yeah. >> Number three could be kind of sticky, I think.
>> Okay. Wait. Um Ed, that was forfeiture of office. I thought we were talking about the definition of vacancies. >> We are. >> Okay. We are. So, we're over here. right here. >> Yeah, we're five. >> That's right. >> Okay. So, uh let me get the clerk. Let's get caught up with you guys. >> Yeah.
>> Um a vacancy in the office of a council member shall occur upon number one death, resignation, comma, or removal from
office. Number two, forfeite of office. >> Thought I just put a per Michelle's hand out. >> Okay. All right. We'll we'll bring that
language. We'll >> be set recommendations council can look at for what terms. So, it triggers a vacancy versus allow which versus declaring one exists would actually trigger the conversation and the con consequences of the vacancy now happening. That's what I'm taking from
this. Yes. Okay. Good. >> Any other reaction from you guys on that? >> Attorneys? No. >> Okay. >> So, you'll add uh >> I'm still Yeah. Number three you want to talk about? >> Yeah. And I know the council handled it last time
somehow with a waiver I believe about uh >> people living off the island. >> Yes. So, I still think number number three being cemented in the charter could be troublesome. to res. >> Um I disagree only because if a residence should be defined as what you
are your registered voter which is your driver's license. So if I temp when I temporarily >> that's that's determined by Lee County. >> Well but if you don't carry a Fort Myers Beach residency, you shouldn't be on the council. You're vacant.
>> It's still determined by the elections guy from Lee County. It's it's it's Lee County's call on that whether you would be a resident or not. >> Well, but the council requirements are that you are Fort Myers Beach resident.
So, you need to maintain your Fort Meyers Beach residency to be on the council. >> And I don't think anybody's residency changed because they were living off the island during the period. Their driver's license didn't change. They're voting on the site >> other than their commute change, but I don't think the definition of where
they're a resident did it all because they're renting somewhere else. >> That's my belief. >> That's But I know. But what's the time limit on that? Is it a year? Is it two years? Is it five years? Is it 10 years? >> I'm having a hard time finding contractors. It's been 20 years.
>> There's no one no way to tell. Well, I can tell you in in the case of my other half that we're rebuilding three and a half years later and we're still maintaining the Fort Myers Beach residence address. Um they are saying in
2026 that we've got to apply for homestead so we hope the home's going to be done. Um, so you know, I think again I think it's an exception, but otherwise I mean if you if you move off
the island as a council member, I think it's questionable what if you should stay on the council. Michelle, could we could number three in to eliminate the residency thing, could it simply state failure to maintain
required qualifications of office? That would include residents, it would include everything else without outlining it here. >> Yeah. If that's a base qualification and you fail to maintain it and like I said later in charter, it says council makes
that call. I mean, there could be public comment, there could be a citizens referend, there could be anything about you don't live here anymore and you're on council and council will have to deal with that. That okay? >> I I feel better. >> That's okay. >> Okay. So change that one to failure to
maintain qualifications for office. Now I know Nancy can sell that. All right. You good aim? Okay. Then let's talk about um the conditions under which your office is for forfeiteured. So 4.07 is
forfeite of office. A member of the council may forfeit may forfeit. We're going to talk about that in a minute. uh the office if the member a lacks at any time during the term office any qualification for the office prescribed by charter law. Well, that's
what Anita just said on number three. So, that's pretty clean. Violates any express prohibition of this charter. Anybody have any idea what that meant? Mean if you do something wrong, you're out. Well,
>> um I I have to stop. Sorry. Go. We I wasn't done with the last one. >> Okay. Sure. >> Um I only We need to qualify. >> Oops. I'm sorry. Um I need to go back to the last one to finish up. We don't have a process, I believe, for Okay, we've
now created a vacancy. >> How do we fill that vacancy? >> 4.08 coming up. >> We're going to filling the vacancies. >> Okay. All right. You can hold that. >> I had it wrong on my spot. Gotcha. >> Yeah, no problem at all. Sorry.
>> C is convicted of a felony or criminal misdemeanor, which dism involves the office of a town council or misses three consecutive regularly scheduled council meetings without an excused absence.
And finally, does not maintain a permanent residence in the town of Fort Mar's Beach. So, I'm going to jump in real quick. Sure you would. Um, so just because I'm using the MUN code and I have the annotations, I will tell you that there
is an ordinance 98-5 and it was adopted to clarify the language in this section, but it was not sent to referendum. Again, in the interpretation uh the opportunity to interpret terms in your charter, it
states, "A council member who has been excused from attending a meeting by a vote of three council members shall not be considered as missing that meeting. If the next regularly scheduled council meeting is less than one week from the event of forfeite, then the hearing will
be continued to allow at least one week notice." And that goes to u that paragraph that we haven't gotten to yet regarding the need for a hearing >> um before you remove. >> Okay. Okay. So, I want to this one I feel very strong on and I would if you
would take my notes and go through um there is this is so broad for removal of power and there's no detailed due process, no burden of proof. There's just no protection for misuse in this. Um and
when I hear that it was removed years ago, I would say that it's been questioned before. And you know there's this needs to be detailed especially after considering what we've gone through here lately. So
>> and many municipalities including asterero do define that in >> correct >> excruciating detail. I know that first. >> So this is if you look at best practices I have this one I've spent a lot of time on that due diligence needs to be done in this here.
So if you would in my notes instead of me going through and reading everything unless you if I need to. >> Well let me ask you first of all some context is a forfeiture from office that's being initiated by behavior of the council person in their official
responsibilities therefore removed by council other than death and others. You see how unexcused absence would be a council removal. Is that different in your mind in that context than a recall? >> Yes or no? I
>> That's why I'm asking because I think it's dangerously close to both edges here. >> Yeah. >> Recalls are mandated by Florida on how those work >> and we must follow those. We can't add to those, etc. If you're asking to put due process in here to removal, are you
supplementing the recall process for council authority? Therefore, they have to go through something that a recall process doesn't. >> And I'm not sure you can create a law. >> I I I agree, but I don't think there was any in stating in here is that we would
have actually asked for the evidence. >> You know, is what bring forth Who's doing the removing in your mind? It's the council or the folks. >> Um, if the council would >> So, you want council to have a due process. And I know I know this is how it works. That's why I'm asking you to
define it. You want council to have a due process before any office is forfeited. Forfeited. >> Absolutely. >> Or before they're removed. >> Uh, before the process. >> There's a difference there. And the words are going to matter and I'll shut up. I promise. Forfeiting means you're giving up. Removing says, "I'm fighting
for it. Who is who is doing your removing? >> Yeah, that's the question. At this point, it's council. That's where we are right now. It >> is council, right? But there's a recall process. The recall process is the public. >> And there is a separate section in your charter that deals with recalls
specifically, but the due process component is that paragraph um that talks about if any of these events occur, automatically be conducted. A hearing that is the due process shall be conducted at the next rarely scheduled
council meeting. >> Now I'm going where you want to go and I'm just trying to get you the public. Now that's where I think this belongs to say and during that hearing the following items will be properly delineated, communicated, publicized. I tried to get you down to that point because that's where the impact is, not
these items up here. These are fores and if we believe there is one now you kick in. >> Okay. >> Are you okay with that? >> Yep. Ed, >> I have one and I know the horse isn't even breathing anymore, but letter C is
pretty broad. Does not maintain a permanent residence in the town of Fort Myers Beach. >> Uh, that E. Yeah. Okay. >> E, I'm sorry. Eyes are bad. >> How do you all feel about that? again. Why why do I'm questioning why
we're what's the issue >> if some >> the issue is uh validating for the public that anyone who is serving on the town council is a permanent resident of Fort Myers Beach. >> That's a definition of a permanent
resident. There is a definition of a permanent resident and I'm just think and is that is that a in the property appraisal or what? I don't know where it is but there is a definition. So I I think it has to
do linking up with like you said before your driver's license your homesteading your registration >> your voter registration all of that proves permanent residence. I'm okay. Now I'm following and I this didn't that happen in Cape Coral where somebody
tried to >> they did >> registered vote and she in a different district and that's actually a federal >> Yeah. >> offense when you pretend to live somewhere that you don't. >> Yeah. Maybe this might be and I did do a
little bit of research on this. So we have the permanent residents, you and I. We're here 12 months a year and then we have the homesteaders who leave here for three or four months, >> but we're also homesteaders. >> Correct.
>> So, when we talk about permanent residents, and I have I've even battled this in my own neighborhood that if we really need help year round, in my opinion, you should be here year round. Doesn't mean you can go on vacation for a month. Absolutely. You can come and
go, but really committed here on the island. You live here year round. You don't leave for four to six months to go to your home up north. >> Oh, Michelle, I'd be careful with that one. >> No, I look at Look at the guy sitting next to Jim.
>> He goes, he leaves. But again, >> it's not level of commitment. >> What is that? Is that the qu why are we're questioning the permanent residence? I'm trying to figure out why we're questioning the permanent resident. If it's not that topic, then you should maintain residency in Florida in my opinion.
>> Well, you can 181 days, you can be a resident of Florida and you can be anywhere else for 179. >> Yep. Okay. Exactly. >> That's completely legal. Okay. >> Like Canadians do it all the time. >> You know, there was a time when people would get up to public comment and say, "I live at 185 Jefferson Street and I have been here for 19.7
years." I mean, where people were pitting against each other because you've only been here for two years. I've been here for 35. You don't want to get back there. It's I live here. Period. >> Is there anybody on council that does not stay here 12 months?
>> You have to be here. >> Okay. No, you have to. I mean, >> yeah. So, I guess >> you got to be on island. I mean, we have >> When you say be careful, I'm I was trying to figure out why >> because we're talking about the council. >> You could find out pretty quick if if somebody starts zooming in on meetings
and >> the community is going to vent that. >> The community is going to know right away. It's a mute point. It's a mute point. The as to my point, the council lives here 12 months. So, that's not the question here. >> Well, so let's go back. >> I never lived here 12 months. >> No, >> never. I'm I was always gone two months
in the summer. I go to Spain. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to parse that too much more because I think we're going to we're going to have an indefensibility clause here in a minute >> and we have the legal definition. >> We do. So, but I want to make sure that committee member Ed is at least peaceful for the moment.
>> No, I'm sat I'm satisfied with that. I'm just I'm just >> I'm not going to have you say it twice. >> I just think it's a little broad. >> Okay. >> Raw is a good word. >> And could I just clarify one thing, Michelle? When I said be careful with that, I just mean uh those little
nuances of how long have you been here? How long do you live here? Are you here 12 months? Are you here 8 months? Those those uh have created a lot of riffs in the past with people feeling more important because they're here 12 months a year as opposed to somebody who's here nine months and three days a year. And
>> everybody can contribute in significant ways based on the time. >> Exactly. Exactly. That's what I mean. >> All right, let's move on because I think this is an important moment for this last paragraph. my commenting anything about that? >> No, the top five. They're okay. >> Okay. >> Really sad you didn't follow that to be
so obvious. >> Oh. Um, so we need clarification down here. Um, so we're on 4.07. >> Yes. >> Is there any comment there or is there addition? >> Well, we're going to do the last paragraph unfortunately right now. And that's where the due due process I
believe ought to happen. If any event should occur, a hearing shall automatically be conducted at the next regular scheduled council meeting and the member may be declared to have forfeited office by majority vote of counsel. And this is where I was driving Michelle to. Many communities have a
clearly delineated uh hearing process that you can expect to go through should you find yourself in that situation. So, let's talk about that. Michelle, >> you have her document so it's out there. >> Yeah. So basically, as I said, there is
a due process that needs to be laid out on exactly what happens. It does allow there to be evidence examination, a rebuttal, the normal thing we're all used to in in the normal process other than through recalls that
um the council would engage in with one of its members with the public present and observing and ultimately that process result in a vote at the end whether or not that council member should uh forfeit their office. So there's a recommendation to insert some of that language in there. Uh
>> yes, >> we're not a court of law though and it's the the rules of evidence and the rules of >> uh definitions are completely different in a court of law and I think um we
shouldn't pretend that there should be there or that there has to be a defined due process because that's a legal term that you know and that due process means okay I'm going to let's see what's my lawyer's number again, you know.
>> Well, but let me ask can let me ask you this. So, if something happens, I clearly stated written charges stating the specific grounds for forfeite would be given to you. It seems to me it's spelled out in some of the previous sections about how you
forfeit the office and the conditions under which you're required whe felony or other conditions that uh but >> you in terms of u um going to the the
legal process the rule of law I don't think so >> I don't really have any comment on Do you think it works as it is today? >> I do. >> You believe somebody could be removed uh with the proper accusations and interaction in front of the public that there wouldn't be a question? >> I guess I believe it works today because
it has for the preceding teen years. There's not been a >> always appreciate your >> residency comments. >> Right. I have I have nothing else on this uh on that paragraph. >> Michelle, I'm not hearing a lot of
momentum around further delineating. seems to be self-governing. Uh there is some um respect involved in calling someone out for their behavior that I think uh a public forum requires that interaction take place and in the end if
it's nefarious or colluded um I would hope that would be obvious to the to both the recipient and the public as well. >> So >> so I don't hear any momentum for further defining that. >> I can make some comment. Um course I think that the um
>> the actions and the definitions that u Michelle has provided under due process required. I would agree with that because I believe there's case law that would require that to happen. You don't have to put it in your charter. I mean
your charter language is perfectly fine. But if we were to actually have to use that charter language, you would see us doing um the items 1 through five that Michelle has identified. >> And you would see us doing them by what
sort of criteria or expectation that that has to happen? >> Case law. Case law. >> So it's already embedded in what we would be doing >> have to be modified annually, you know, case law >> because of case law changing. Yeah, I agree. But I mean this is this is a huge
issue regarding um due process because basically these individuals were voted into office and now you have five individuals who by majority vote which is only three then actually can have them removed um which might be contrary
to the will of the people. It's it's a big having that hearing is very very important and uh not only for the individual but also for the public. >> It's self-governing because the public's going to expect it, demand it, require it for an outcome
>> and that's again the best practices is the council shall conduct a public hearing with representation from council pro give the evidence and the witness. It gives the voters the right. We voted for the council. they should have the right versus you could just get a group
on the council that says out we want one out they vote and the voters get >> I'm hearing case law would prevent that from happening because that person could object through the due process case law and say I was not afforded the uh the interaction that I should have to to defend myself isn't that what you're
saying Nancy about the uh case >> it is it would result in a lawsuit >> there you are >> so interesting I'm thinking of some very contentious times where that could have happened but didn't. That's that's that's they're you're challenging my uh >> can I make a recommendation?
>> We have two seats missing today and this is a very large topic based on what's happened here. Could everyone could we sleep on this one till the next meeting and come back to it? >> Yeah, there's nothing we're deciding. We have not taken a vote on anything. We ultimately will come back and do that. We can bring this conversation up and
placehold it. Of course, >> we want some filler in here to say we've had the conversation. the minutes will reflect that. We believe we're protected by case law and best practices anyway. >> We don't want to embed something further in the charter that then puts us in the due process business that we shouldn't
be in. And the end of it all, we are talking about an elected representative of the people being removed by somebody other than the people. >> One thing do we need to bring up that is on here also is defining excused absences >> is not and I think this is the spot for
it. So there is a ordinance that has already been adopted back in 1998-5 that says council member who has been excused from attending by a vote of three council members shall not be considered as missing that meeting. So
the request >> but Michelle saying what what is that? Is that me saying oh I'm I'm in Madrid and I can't be there. Is that really an excused absence? It has been >> if it is the will of three people. the will of the majority of the council, right?
>> But I also want to emphasize that that communication for the request for an excused absence, whether it's on town council or on one of the appointed boards like this board should ultimately go through the town. >> Absolutely. >> And not the chair.
>> Oh, yeah. Of course. >> Sure. >> Of course. >> Yeah. I completely agree. And it seems to me that again, we're back to a self-regulating situation. Um, context matters the moment of the request, what's really happening. The council members or committee members know the
facts around it or should and they're legislating in the moment for the benefit of both the committee and the individual being affected here. And I never want to remove their ability to be flexible like that because we can't predict those kind of circumstances that we wish you would have thought of if we define it and say these are the only
ones you can be excused for. >> That's right. >> That's right. It has to be uh broad enough to >> and we have to trust and believe that the committees will do or the council will do what it should do to regulate itself. >> It's in the public. >> Yeah. >> So, do you all like my comment bringing to the January meeting further
discussion >> regarding due process for removal of office by council? >> Yes. >> Yes. That good? >> I am. But I just want to bring back up and we even have it in our charter is or our defined um rules an unexcused absence
the three times you're unex you're you're absent you're out. >> So I think the intent matters here and I would say that in this context you blow off and don't call them in nobody knows where you are. You've lost interest in this. you're acting differently than you
were representing that you would when you were put in office or selected. Um the an unexcused absence to me is no context, no notification, uh repeat and ongoing excuses etc. that build up within the minds of the people that are saying I'm not putting up with
this anymore. So that is not excused and you can vote against excusing and absence. You have the will and power to do that. And again, I'm just do we have it, you know, so that people are aware or council me future council members are aware that hey, you're not here. >> Again, checking does it need to be in
here? >> I'm not sure that will ever get to that point that someone will be confused around whether or not they belong to council and for what reasons. >> Okay, >> especially three times. I just don't foresee it happening and want to be careful not to overregulate this. >> Okay,
>> so just checking if I go on vacation three times, I'm excused. I can still stay in the council >> up to council. >> You have to request to be excused. >> You have to be requested. And if you do not get approved, your job's on the line. >> Okay. >> But I like your I like your thought process. >> And I think the public would totally
agree with you. >> All right. Let's move on to 408, please. Filling of vacancies. A vacancy on the council except for the position of mayor shall be filled by appointment by a majority vote of the council members remaining and set appointment shall be effective until a
successor is chosen at the next regular election. In the event that majority of the members are removed by death, disability, law, or foreure office, God, >> the governor shall appoint an interim council that shall call a special election within 45 days following the
occurrence of the vacancies to elect a new council. >> In the event that the mayor becomes unable to fulfill the duties of office, ceases to be qualified or is removed from office as provided by law or this charter, the vice mayor shall assume the full powers and the duty as mayor. The
vice mayor shall assume the office of mayor for the remainder of the unexpended unexpired term. The council vacancy thus created shall be filled by an interim appointment under the provisions of the charter to be effective only until such a time the mayor resumes office or until the
expiration of the term of office, whichever comes first. >> That's perfect. Well, I haven't heard that. Ed, how do you feel about it? I've got no problem with that language. >> Neither do I.
>> Operationally, uh, Anita, is that >> it's never been an issue. >> This is about a circumstance where there's a whole bunch of things going on. An entire council's removed um for a lot of reasons and there's a whole lot of things that have to happen real quickly and they're trying to provide continuity of leadership during the
process. That's how I read the paragraph. >> This did happen on the county commission once. >> Lee County, >> three of them towed it away to jail. >> Yeah. or the city of Dixon where the treasurer absconded with $5 million and bought
horses. >> It happened in Escambia County when I was there as well. We had four of our five county commissioners removed. >> All right. Section 409. Let's go to qualifications. This is what I was referring to. >> Sorry. >> Oh, sure. >> Scott, I'm going to look over at you. So, this states that the mayor leaves,
you're automatically mayor. Did I not just hear you state 45 minutes ago that you'd want the council to vote that? >> I certainly did. >> Mike, >> so I certainly did. But if the charter in this case says I'm mayor, then I'm
>> You got to function accordingly. >> You have to function accordingly. >> Those are the issues you fill. >> Do you want the option to be able to say no, I don't want to do this and then >> I can do that at the next council meeting. I can >> You can do it for the vice mayor at the next council meeting. Anything like that? >> Yeah. Okay.
>> I mean, this this is well worth it. I mean, this is in an emergency. Yeah. I'll I'll take the baton for sure. >> Yeah. >> This this looks like to me like it's it's a big something major major happened here. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, I'm willing to do that. But if
it's just >> as we were talking before, yeah, I'd like the will of the council to to support whomever the mayor is. >> Great. That's one to hear. >> Good. Thank you. This is the one I was referring to before on judge qualifications 4.09. 009 port.09 for those listening. >> Yeah.
>> The council shall be the judge of the election and qualifications of its members and the grounds for forfeiteure of their office and for that purpose shall have the power to subpoena witnesses, administer oaths and require the production of evidence. A council
member charged with conduct constituing grounds for forfeite of this office shall be notified by the town clerk by certified mail and shall be entitled to a public hearing at the next regular scheduled meeting of the council as outlined in 407 4.07 of this charter.
Notice of such a hearing shall be published in one or more newspapers of general circulation in the town at least one week in advance. if we had our newspaper. >> So, this was getting into what you talked about before and the charter has already been approved with this in
there. I don't know how they can escape it, let alone the case law. Right, Nancy? >> Um, that is correct. It does appear to provide for um some due process uh safeguards. Um the qualifications of its members, I think that gets to the
residency issue. >> That's what that's what I was referring to way back in the beginning. Council has again the authority to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me ask you these six questions. I don't think you're baseline qualified for this." And if they if I'm wrong, I'm gonna hear it. And if I'm right, I'm glad I brought it
up. >> Do we need to consider independent ethics review or a special magistrate in that process? So oftent times um a special magistrate, sometimes called a hearing officer, um
could be employed in situations where um there is the need to look at facts and then based on um kind of the evaluation of whether facts are correct
or are um not correct. And generally the a special magistrate in that situation or a hearing officer would make a recommendation to another body that would render the final decision. >> Oh okay.
Can the accused request a hearing officer? >> In lie of counsel >> in addition to counsel. >> No it's a council's call. >> I Yeah. I don't I don't see that where
they would be able to create a process. I mean they could ask and council might agree to it. Um >> but in the end council is determining body on the next steps. >> No judge shopping. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> All right. 4.10 independent financial
audit. The council shall provide for an independent annual financial audit all town accounts and be provide for more frequent audits as deemed necessary. Such audits shall be made by a certified public accountant or a firm of such accountants who have no personal interest, direct or indirect, in the
fiscal affairs of the town government or any of its officers. Residency in the town shall not be construed as a prohibited interest. So that means the auditor could live here. >> Yeah. Kind of wish they did. The only thing that I found here was
some areas have moved to post- disaster audits just because of the magnitude of what happened. But again, we could consider that an exception. >> And it's also it may provide for more frequent audits as deemed necessary. So it is covered in the council's authority to say, "Oh, oh, I thought we had a
million dollars in there, so I was told we don't. Now we know where it is." >> Fair, Scott? >> That's super fair. >> Okay. We we'd like that to have that that ability if we we see a something that throws up red flags. We want to react to it.
>> There is so much contingent liability for the council members etc for representing that this is a legitimate financial um context of the town that you would want to do something like that if you had any concerns and the audit committee I'm sure would rise their head
even quicker than that. 411 4-11 meetings. The council shall meet regularly at least eight times a year and shall meet no less often than bimonthly at such times and locations within the boundaries of the town as the
council may prescribe. Special meetings may be held on the call of the mayor or the town manager and with reasonable notice to each member and to the public. Action taken at a special meeting shall be limited to the purpose for which that special meeting
is called. A special meeting may be held outside the town with reasonable notice. All meetings shall be public and shall be scheduled to commence no earlier than 7 and no later than 8. So we've got two council members here >> or no later than 10. Yeah, 10 p.m. We
have two council members here. Has that provide the flexibility you needed during the times you need to call these meetings and where you need to call them? >> Yeah, I think it we saw through Ian that it's >> charter works >> Indita. Agreed. Can I ask one thing then for further clarification? All meetings
shall be public. Is that true? >> No. >> That's why I think we ought to deal some of that. >> No, there's >> because I know we can call them for lots of reasons that >> executive sessions are not uh are >> legal matters, personnel matters. >> Correct. >> So, how can we word smith that to include that flexibility in the chart?
>> Is this section though only referring to the town council? >> Uh, well, it wouldn't even matter because the town council has special meetings. There you are. Yeah. >> Yeah, you're right. So, what can we word smmith there that allow us to put in the things Nancy, you know, you have to approve if they want to call a non-public meeting
>> as provided by law. >> Okay, there you go. All meetings except as provided by law shall be public, madame clerk, those no big words there. We're all good. >> All right, rules. Well, now we get
around to rules. >> Um, I have one more added. It was recommended that we actually list our transparency requirements for um the meetings, i.e. live streaming. We archive the recordings. We post them within seven days. And that um the one I
wanted to bring up that's been an issue is do we need to talk about public commenting and how it's going to be working with the town since it continuously is an issue. >> But you're talking about the charter here. The ordinance is about the things you're talking about. We can refer in a
minute. You you thinking about putting something in the charter that requires it. >> Other charters have. So I didn't know if we >> Okay. See what Nancy says about >> public comment in the course of a meeting. Michelle. Corre. >> Correct. And how the town handles it. If I want to come in and make public
comment, what are because we've had folks come in and go, "What do you mean I only get three minutes?" >> Yeah. >> Well, that is >> and that is actually at the discretion of the chair. So if Jim had people here today and somebody wanted to talk for 15 minutes and he would likely say, "Do you
all think we should give them more time?" He not >> We've all done that a million times. >> Dan has done that many times. Ask will the council kind of continue on and have that person either come back up or extend their time. >> Y >> he has it chair's discretion to do it. >> Yep. Meeting. >> Yeah, he he does.
>> Yeah. And he has done it. The issue again then becomes if we codify it, the five becomes seven. It's the speed limit of 65 being 75, 75 being 85. So the three minutes, I don't know if there's arbitrary or just works for us. There are fives as you know out there. >> Three minute rule in here
>> and there are ones. >> School board I believe is only one. >> Well, school board depends on how many people are signed up for public comment. >> Right. >> Oh, is that right? >> Yes, sure. But you know, Michelle, I think that that is um uh the place for that discussion is in the rules and
procedures of the council because you could have a council that says we're going to take public comment on every item like we did the other day with the charter review. We went through every section and took public the comp plan. That's right. I'm sorry. On the comp
plan and we took public comment at each section. you know, it's it's up to the dynamic of the group. >> So, >> don't disagree with you, but then I'm going to ask your advice. >> I'm now the chair of the advisory board for Bayold. Did not know that rule.
>> Which rule? >> The three minutes. >> Uh, no. That as the chair, I could let that person keep talking. >> I'll give you some tips. >> Yeah. Yes, you you could if you want to. >> Yeah, but but my question is those rules you're saying that's on the council, but that also applies
>> It applies to the advisory. Yes, it does apply. So, you could if you felt like there was somebody giving public comment that was valuable information to your group, you could say to your group, uh, this is this is great information. Would
you all agree to let the speaker continue >> or ask them to submit something in writing >> or ask them to submit it in >> every slippery slope though? It can be a slippery slope. >> And you know why you can do that? Because you're not violating the charter, >> right? That's true. Yeah.
>> You don't want to get yourself with the rules in there where you can't be what matters most at the time to do your best job and to have the right feedback and input to influence the outcome. >> So, it currently resides in the rules of procedure which at your next meeting will we'll provide you a copy of this.
Um so in advance you can see um how again the policies and procedures looking at that hierarchy how they interact with the charter language. But what is currently in the procedural rules is that public comment will generally be limited to three minutes
per speaker. The chair may modify the threeminut limit with approval by vote of the council. The public comment times are intended as opportunities for interested persons or parties to present their viewpoints to the council members.
They are not intended as question and answer sessions or as dialogue with the council. Response to questions and/or clarifications requested during public comment may with the approval of town council be answered immediately if there is a straightforward short answer
directed to the appropriate person for response at a later time or placed on the agenda for a future council meeting. And um Anita, you know that LPA has similar >> procedural rules that they follow for their meetings. The whole idea of public
comment is to engage the public. So, you know, you want to encourage it, not discourage it. >> Oh, I don't >> Yeah, >> I don't disagree. I'll plead the fifth. I didn't I wish I would have had a copy of those because I think there's a lot of things I would have brought up. >> It's all available for you, but don't ever download it.
>> You You'll have it for the next for the next meeting. Again, I want to emphasize that interreationship between these different things. So you might be able to accomplish what a policy concern is that you have by not putting it in the charter but making a recommendation for
a resolution or a change to your procedural rules. Um which um Mr. Chair, it kind of goes into 4.12. >> Exactly. That's where I'm coming up next. Um so what a great transition and you shut off that dialogue. 4.12 rules.
The council shall determine its own rules. Let me just let that set set in for a second. There's the flexibility you're looking for. And order of business and shall provide for the keeping of minutes of its proceedings. The minutes shall be public records. The town council shall
maintain a policies and procedure manual that provides guidelines for how it'll operate. >> And that is in resolution number 23-182. Um, just to give you a flavor of some of the things that you'll find in here, the
meeting schedule, the timetable and preparation process. There is reference to an attendance policy, the conduct of council meetings, rules of civility, minutes, um, agenda management, how voting orders
established by roll call votes, voting conflicts, guidelines for legislative and quasi judicial land use hearings. Lots of flexibility but clear count account accountability on the council creating its rules following them
documenting public and providing the minutes of each individual meeting. >> How however when you say when you say that it does say that uh in the introduction uh the town council policy and procedures is for purposes of helping the council in the discharge of
their duties. They are intended to be guidelines, not rules on how to conduct business. So they have that flexibility because this is the way they think they want to conduct their meetings, but there could be something. Yes. And they would announce that at the meeting and
you know proceed in a very civil um manner. >> I like them having the flexibility because ultimately they have the accountability of keeping their jobs. >> Yeah. 231. >> All right. Hang with me. One more. Section 4.13 voting quorum.
Roll call voting shall be required for ordinances or upon the specific request of a council member and shall be recorded in the minutes. Otherwise, voting shall be A's and Naz. Three members of the council coun should constitute a quorum. No action of the
council shall be valid or binding unless adopted by the affirmative vote of at least three members of the council except in an emergency situation. All council members in attendance shall vote on all council actions except when
with respect to any such member there is or appears to be a possible conflict of interest as defined by general law. Which is why our town counselor opens up all of these potential votes to make sure that no one is conflicted out there forward undermine the ability to conduct
the business through a quorum. Comments on this one? I think it's handled very well and I know Nancy defaults to roll call votes as often as she can because the minutes are clear and I think it provides integrity to the process. >> All right, very well done. I think I
know the answer about going into section five. So, we've done our duty today. I think um everyone here would agree. I just want to say I appreciate the the way the conversations happened, the full commitment of everybody. Ed, you dug in appropriately on several things that helped us redebate those and I
appreciate that kind of conversation. >> Could I add one more thing? You sure? >> I don't know if it's appropriate or not, but we we got several handouts prior to the meeting that that I we never got a chance to look at until right before the meeting and several of them were actually had quite a bit of information
in them. Would it be possible for these handouts to be sent to the town clerk to be forwarded on to us in a, you know, time frame before the meeting? Nancy, any issue with distributing that if the public doesn't have it to each other? >> Well, the public would have it. Um, if
it goes to the town clerk before the agenda goes out, we would include it as part of the agenda. Um, and at the meeting, uh, we would make reference to the fact that it it's available. Um, the preference would be that you have it at
um before the agenda goes out, that date. >> And what's that deadline, Madam Clerk? Just so everybody knows when they have to get these in. >> The agenda will go the agenda goes out 7 days prior to a meeting >> as a general rule. >> There could be extenduating circumstances in that,
>> but we would like it earlier than that in the clerk. >> So, we have January 6 is our next meeting. So, think about that for those of you that are doing your homework and providing background and detail to get it out to Amy ahead of time and she'll distribute it. >> Uh, just I I was to be prepared. I understand where you came from. I this
was a lot of work but I already have provided you with the section for the next meeting on here and I will work on the the section moving forward. >> Um Mr. Chair, I do have another comment to make. So um our clerk has been trying to capture your comments.
>> Exactly. Um, what we will do at the next meeting for you is we're going to move it instead of having a little bubble, we're going to put it right underneath the section so it's a little bit clearer as to what the bubble is referring to the specific language. Um, I would also
recommend that at your next meeting we start at the very beginning again and you know these are the comments that you all have made. Anybody want to change anything? Not that we're going backwards, but again, just because you got a lot of information today that you
want that opportunity to uh to go and and really understand and analyze >> and maybe somebody finds additional research once we distribute our resolution 23-82, you might want to change that a little bit if that is okay to proceed in that
fashion. >> Well, versus a just a general sure, no problem. Just let me put some context around the support for that. Of course, um I would caution us though, it is not a redeliberation of the baseline issues that we just went through when we came up with our recommendations. There may
be additional or clarifying language that we think even does a better job of advancing what we're trying to do. The Pandora box in that context using its term is to reopen the topic as a redebatable topic. There will be a couple people that will obviously be attending next time as Michelle pointed
out and I will encourage through communication on um town clerk to make sure they read all the minutes and do all the the work they should do to be ready for the next meeting. But I I will not allow us to go back through those again, reopen those conversations and redebate just because we haven't voted
on anything yet. These are recommendations. In the end, we may cause out some of these to call an actual vote of the committee and I will call that to codify those and then we'll know where everybody stands. But for the for the efficiency of the time and the amount of material we have to get through and the progress I think we're
making, I'm going to manage that pretty tightly. >> And I I have no objection to that. I just don't want um Amy and I to be in a position at the very end of all your meetings to have a massive work >> right >> to do. We just kind of want to do it as
we go along. If we've gone down the wrong path, um I just want that opportunity for you to tell us that we did not capture it correctly and uh we can move on. >> Well, that distinction with the difference is important because to clarify that we we captured what the will of the group was in the moment is a
different assignment than saying we'll go back through our recommendations, >> right? >> So, let's just clarify that. I we I still had one and again if it's in the rules procedures but I believe that there is um missing language
>> and I had put together and I'll just read it to you what I thought was >> what section are you referring to Michelle? >> Um I think it's missing period. >> Oh the entire section. Okay. >> Yeah. In this section, in the section we just reviewed is elected officials shall disclose any contractual financial and business relationship with any
individual entity that conducts business within the town or that is subject to town regulation, permits, approvals or operations. >> It's a conflict of interest disclosure. So, how do we handle them? >> So, that is first of all, it's in state law. So, we have to comply with that aside from what our charter or any of
our ordinances and everything would would require. However, there is also reference to it in uh the procedural rules. Okay. >> Um just as a reminder to um our elected officials that that you know state statutes exist um because we don't read
statutes all the time. >> Okay. You'll be sending that >> I'll send these rules out to you. And could I make another request? Could we operate all from the same copy of the charter with the with the resolutions that have been adopted along the way so we're all on the same page and so the
public is on the same page. So when we public publish the agenda that would be what's published not uh something different >> because we got to get that first Tuesday down right. >> Yeah. >> We will do that. >> All right. Thank you gang. I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So move second.
>> Okay. All in favor? Hi. Hi. >> We're adjourned at 4:47. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.