meeting to order. In accordance with the open public meetings act 1975, chapter 231, adequate notice of this regular meeting of the zoning board of the township of Franklin's been provided. Board members, applicants,
professionals, and members of the public, please speak directly into the microphone so our recording secretary can properly process minutes. Applicants and professionals, please fill out the sheet on the table when you've completed
your testimony. Please call the role. >> Okay. Um, oh, actually Allan Rich and Cheryl Bethia asked to be excused. Uh Richard Panic >> here. >> Bassin Verdas >> here. >> Gary Rosenthal >> here. Robert Shepard
>> here. >> Faras Khan Michael Dy >> Kunal Lakia Shependu Singh >> here. >> Chairman Thomas >> here. Us regular meeting June 19th.
Need a motion. I'll move second. >> Richard Panic. >> Yes. >> Basim verdas. >> Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Shependu Singh. >> Yes. >> Chairman Thomas. >> Yes.
Resolution. Hetel Patel. ZBA25012. Again, we need a motion. >> I'll move. >> Second. >> Richard Proanic. >> Yes. >> Vim Verdas. >> Yes. Gary Rosenthal, >> yes.
>> Shapenda Singh, >> yes. >> Robert Thomas, >> yes. >> Mohamad Bud, ZBA 251. >> I'll move >> a second. >> Richard Brokanic. >> Yes. >> Vine Verdas. >> Yes.
>> Gary Rosenthal, >> yes. >> Shapinda Singh, >> yes. >> Robert Thomas, >> yes. >> Anya James, CBA 2510. >> A second. >> Richard Brokanic. >> Yes. >> Nine Verdas.
>> Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Mr. Penda Singh. >> Yes. >> Chairman Thomas. >> Yes. >> Michelle and Ian Fernandez. CDA 2400 23.
>> I'll move. I'll second. >> Richard Proanic. >> Yes. >> Vim Verdas. >> Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Robert Shepard. >> Yes. >> Chairman Thomas. >> Yes.
>> Eh Somerset LLC ZBA25 L5. >> Okay. >> Gary, you said you'll move. >> Yes. >> I'll second. >> Thank you, Richard. Oh, you can't. That's the only one you can't vote on. >> I'll second. Good try.
Basim verdas. >> Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Richard uh Robert Shepard. >> Yes. >> Chairman Thomas. >> Yes. >> 13 Essex East Georgia LLC CDA 2418. >> I will move.
>> I'll second that. >> Richard Proanic. >> Yes. >> Vineas. Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Robert Shepard. >> Yes. >> Chairman Thomas. Yes. Um there is no discussion hearings
655 MIS LLC ZBA 2420 preliminary final major site plan with variances in which the applicant's proposing construction of a 30,917 ft addition to the existing building at
655 Howard Avenue. Uh this is block 528 528.04 lots 161.03 162 163.01 in B1 zone. This is going to be
carried to September 4th, 2025 with no further notification needed. Anyone here for that? Uh it will be September 4th, not tonight. Uh >> just let the record show that Kunala Kia
is here at 7:34. >> Okay. And the uh first hearing we will have JAT2 LLC ZBA25 O16
sign variances in which the applicant is asking permission to place a building mounted sign at 1165 Route 27 Somerset block 88.01 lot 43 in the GB zone. Bob, did we skip over Dunham? Isn't
Dunham first on the agenda? >> 127. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> 127. >> Why is that? Oh, >> I'm sorry. Stretched in between these two.
Jeffrey Dunham ZBA218 C variances in which the applicant permission has permission to build an ingground pool with a patio and roof pavilion and 1250 ft detached garage at
127 Van Clee Road Somerset. Uh who would be there who's present to present that? >> I was just saying to Mark I don't see him in the crowd. Let me make sure he's not locked up outside. This door is locked.
So, it looks like we're moving on. >> Okay, last >> call. Dunham. Okay, we'll move on to >> they were notified. Let me get back this. All right. JAT Route 27 Somerset again
block 88.01 lot 43 sign variances. Is it is the sign? Can you hear me? Or >> put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn put turn the mic on >> may not be on >> side and then push the
right in the middle right in the middle. >> All right, now we're on. All right. Thank you. Uh good evening chairman, board members. Uh my name is John Duca with the law firm Savo Shock. I'm here tonight representing the applicant Jat 2 LLC
which does business as Jersey Mike Subs. Uh this is application ZB25000016. It's a signed rants application. As the chairman mentioned, the property is located at 1165 Route 27. Uh and that's
designated as block 88.01, 01 lot 43 on the tax maps for the township. This is in the the GB zone where eating and drinking establishments are permitted. Uh there's a v variety of commercial uses on the site. Uh it includes three distinct structures uh and and
associated parking. Uh it's near the intersection with Veronica Avenue and Route 27. Uh but this structure that we're focusing on tonight houses Dunkin Donuts and Jersey Mike sub shop. uh which is the subject of this sign variance application. So the proposal is
for the applicant to install a a wall-mounted sign uh on the face on the outside facade that faces Veronica Avenue where currently there is no signage whatsoever uh indicating that Jersey Mike is located there. um that
would allow uh either pedestrians or or drivers traveling northbound on NJ27 to recognize that a Jersey mics exists at that location. Obviously, anybody walking or driving on Veronica Avenue as well. Uh the relief that we are seeking
is a C variant or multiple C variances and uh that's for three deviations from your ordinances. One is for sign location. there's no entrance to the restaurant on that side. So, uh we would be requesting a variance to allow the placement of the sign where we're
proposing it. And then the two other variances are for the size of the sign. One is for the area of the sign where 30 square ft is permitted and 41.8 square feet is proposed and then the vertical dimension of the sign where a maximum of three feet is permitted and uh we're
proposing just over three and a half ft at 3.58. Uh, I will be presenting three witnesses tonight. First, you're going to hear from Mr. Jesse Allen, who is uh an owner and operator of this location. Next, you'll hear from the sign designer,
manufacturer, and installer, Mr. Bill McCarrick. And finally, you you'll hear from our professional planner, Mr. Kevin O'Brien. So, uh, unless there's any housekeeping matters that the board needs to attend to, I would just ask that my first witness be sworn in to testify. >> Go ahead. >> All right. Great.
>> Sir, if you can raise your right hand, please. Sure. >> Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give before this board is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> Can you just uh repeat your name and spell your last name for the record, please? >> Yep. My name is Jesse Allen. Uh last
name is spelled A L Len. >> Thank you. >> Now, Mr. Allen, can you tell me a little bit about your operations on the site, particularly focusing on the challenges you face without this current signage that we're proposing? >> Yes. So, um, we have, uh, about 30% of
our business now comes from digital pickup and digital delivery with, um, a bunch of thirdparty, uh, deliveries like Uber Eats, Door Dash, Postmates. Um, and they constantly have trouble, uh, thinking their GPS is taking them to the wrong location, so they double back to a
different location. And then, um, people that we market to sometimes will drop off food boxes at local, um, uh, like local businesses. um we'll do some charitable uh events and have a presence there. They they always think that we
are the Cedar Grove location across town in Somerset about 5 miles away because when we describe our location, they drive by and they say, "No, we didn't we didn't see anything there. We thought we misheard you." And um it's got to the point where people will call our store and our manager or a shift leader will
walk outside waving their arms in a uh in an apron to attract their attention to come in because the entrance is actually about 120 ft past our location as well. So um we we have a I I want to be clear, we do have a sign, but it
faces the parking lot in a caddy fashion where you'd have to be in the parking lot to see that we're there for the most part. Um, so we are a market underperforming location um by about 18% in sales and um we have about almost 16%
more traffic that passes the store. So um I I and and Jersey Mike and all our staff there um believes that it's it's a visibility issue because we don't have pylon representation either. So, we really have nothing um to passers by indicating that we're even a restaurant,
let alone um a Jersey Mike sub shop. It just looks like storage space for Dunkin Donuts. That's what most of our customers that finally discover us kind of say that it is. So, I hope that paints a decent picture. >> Yeah. So, I just want to uh direct the board's attention to uh the exhibit I am
displaying on the screen. This was uh provided with part as part of the application. So, uh, there there's four slides or sheets to this exhibit. And, um, I guess Jesse, why don't you just explain, you know, what we're looking at
here and and give some context to what you just described. >> Sure. So, you're looking at the drive-through lane that comes in for Dunkin Donuts, and it would bend around. So, this is Veronica Avenue, and it would bend around to Route 27 to the left. Now, that Jersey Mike sign does
not exist there. So, what it looks like is that there's this kind of like ugly tail end of a Dunkin Donuts. Our entrance is to the left around the corner, right behind Carbon, uh I believe it's Carbon Health, uh which is
a rehab facility there, like a physical rehab facility, and there's an urgent care there as well. So, you need to be well into the parking lot to see our entrance. Finally, when you pass by, it's it's I wish we had a picture without it on there. It just looks like
storage or an office space for the Dunkin Donuts itself. So, um people will pass it and say, "My GPS must be wrong or um I didn't see it where they described." And we're constantly throwing out food because they go to Cedar Grove and and have it made like I
mentioned before. So, um that's that's the front at the top left. That's the front. We do have a sign above there, but it has an angular face towards towards the parking lot where >> What does that mean, angular face? >> So, it it's not it it it uh the sign if
if you were to look dead on at the sign, you'd have to be standing about 30° into the parking lot to see it straight on. So, it's it uh if it were a busy shopping center, which which it is definitely not, it would attract the attention of all the all the people
within the shopping center. That's kind of how it's angled, but it does nothing to draw people in off of the road because by the time you can see it when you're driving up root uh up Veronica Avenue where it's on your left, you've passed the entrance to the to the plaza
and people just kind of give up on it. I mean, convenience is a big uh a big thing towards the success or failure of uh fast casual restaurant. >> Okay. Okay. Now,
does Dunkin Donuts have a sign on the on the side of the building that you want to put a sign up on? >> Yes. Yes, they >> So, they So, they've already they've already somehow dealt with this. I don't
remember them coming here, but um they've they've put up the same kind of sign that you want to put up. I I believe that to be true and uh I don't want to speak on behalf of him, but I think he was able to based on how the
drive drive-thru window was was perhaps classified. >> So, you can see it in the top right there that a Duncan illuminated sign. I mean, uh Bill McCarrick would be able to speak better to like the actual type of sign that it is. >> And no, that's fine. That's fine. So, that that Dunkin Donut sign faces
Veronica. >> Correct. >> That's correct. >> Parallels. You can't talk yet. Um, all right. So, what about on Route 27? Do you have a sign that faces Route 27?
>> We do not. Dunkin Donuts does. >> You You don't have any signs? >> Uh, we have one above our front door that faces the parking lot. That was that kind of angular uh situation I was trying to describe where if you were in the parking lot looking at the building,
then you could finally see us. Okay. All right. And I'm sorry, but in your DRC report, it says that Dunkin Donuts received a variance. >> Yeah, I was just looking to confirm that. Yes, when that site plan was approved, uh they needed a variance for
that for the location. I believe the uh Dunkin Donuts though complies with the size and vertical dimension. However, right >> and I'm just going to display the LA the last sheet of uh of this exhibit just so that the board can understand the the
configuration of the lot that we're discussing and how it's situated along Route 27 and Veronica Avenue. So, where my cursor is hovering, this is the the structure that we're discussing on the
site. Veronica Avenue is here towards the bottom and Route 27 is here. So, as you can see, this marker indicates the proposed sign location would be on the side of this building. Dunkin Donuts is up towards the front and Jersey Mike's is towards the back. And that angular sign that Mr. Allen talked about is
above the entrance of Jersey Mike's right where my cursor is hovering. >> So, the new sign >> So, I don't see how that sign is is visible on on Route 27 even. >> Correct. It's not. >> Is that correct?
>> That's that's Yeah, it's visible at a point of no return. >> Right. >> Right now, you have nothing visible on Route 27. Correct. >> You could argue that. Yeah. >> Like like a a very shrewd person might be able to make the sign out just in time to pull in.
>> But the average person, I think, would miss it >> because they're focusing on driving. >> Yes. >> All right. I I will give you a little bit of sympathy in what you said before because if you're coming down Veronica Avenue
and and really by the time you see Jersey Mike's you are past the point where you could make a left turn. >> Correct. And and if you go around the the corner it's just Dunkin Donuts that you can see and we don't have a pylon at
the other entrance and egress pork chop there. So um it looks like destitute at that end. You would never turn in there out of instinct. >> What's a pylon? I know what a pylon is, but what this can't be what you're what you're telling me. >> A good good question. It's a it's a it's a twopost sign that comes out of the
ground with um most if not all of the tenants that occupy the retail space within that kind of like uh pad site there. So, it'll list um you know, if there's a pizzeria, uh there's an Indian food place that's up there. Um but but we don't have the opportunity to get on
that that pylon unless the dimensions of it are are changed. So we just have the sign hanging above our front door to the people that visit the parking lot. >> Okay. Now I'm going to change the subject a little bit because it seems
like like I don't understand why you've made the sign just slightly bigger than what's allowed. You can't make the sign the in terms of what's allowed. it looks like a very small difference between what is permitted and what you're asking
for. >> So I I have to apologize if that's the case. I've been um guided by hired professionals and by uh the franchiseor to try to help me guide what would form fit the um the uh the side of the wall based on the approximate miles an hour
people would be driving like what would be very easy to identify. So, um I I I would ask um if Bill could be introduced at any point, he could talk about how the sign can be changed in size. Um
if that's if that's allowed. >> Yeah. And I think I think Bill would also be the appropriate witness to describe uh where the sign would be visible from and what might justify the the request for variance for the size. >> Okay. >> Any any other board questions? Well, I'm
just curious why you're not requesting a sign that faces 27. >> That That's exactly what we're requesting. I'm sorry if it was unclear. >> But no, I thought Veronica Avenue, right? >> Oh. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry. Because because the You're right. I apologize. Um because that whole side of
that building is just a Dunkin Donuts. So, it's a it's a 3,000 foot site roughly. I could be wrong on that. Like give or take. And we occupy about a third and then they have 2/3. So that 2/3 um the gentleman that owns the
Dunkin Donuts also owns I think like uh a lease for that. It's a ground lease that he negotiated with the master like landlord of the property. So he took the main and main corner and we can't put our sign on on his building. So the best we can do is hit the busier side there
which I would argue is Veronica Avenue. It's the only chance we have and then maybe we can be added to the pylon sign on Route 27 later on once we get that assessed. >> Yeah. So, just to to emphasize uh what Jesse is saying, there's really no place on the building that you could put a
Jersey Mike sign, which Jersey Mike's controls. There's no place on the building that Jersey Mike controls that they could place that sign other than where they're proposing it. >> Okay. >> Anybody else? >> I don't think
my feeling is I don't think you're getting too much push back as far as a sign itself goes. So, if you could bring on the people that you think will justify the size variance, sure, we could move along.
>> Okay. Then I I would ask that um my my next witness, Mr. Bill McCarrick, be sworn in to testify. >> Sure. >> Sir, if you can raise your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give before this board is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do.
>> Just repeat your name and spell your last name for record, please. >> William A. McCarrick, MC, capital C A R R I C K. >> Thank you. Now, Mr. McCarrick, could you please uh describe for the board your background and your experience uh with sign design?
>> Uh, I've been involved in the sign business, man and boy since 1978. Um, I am a salesman, the main salesman for the Rex sign company that does most of the Jersey mics. >> Okay. Thank you. Now, what can you tell us about the technical aspects of the
proposed sign here >> as far as illumination goes? >> Uh, lum illumination, dimensions, depth, uh, pretty much everything. >> What you're looking at up on the screen, um, is the, uh, a non-illuminated background pan with compound channel
letters. Compounding mean that they light through the front and also cast a a halo effect on the pan that they're attached to. uh similar to what something Macy's or Nordstrom's or one of the higher retail stores would do. It it it was a Jersey Mike's design which
we tweaked and made it a little better for them I think. And uh you can see all the dimensions that are there for each one of the letters that we're proposing as well which uh Jersey Mike of course requires. So the capital J as you can see from that drawing is 22 in uh so on
and so forth and the other sizes are there as well. So, uh, are you able to tell me anything about the the visibility of this sign based on the size? >> The visibility of the sign's fantastic. It's very upscale. It's not uh the
lumens are not so bright that it would affect any type of traffic. uh the location of this particular uh on that building and that height and that size which is why we increased the size being down to the normal three uh 30 square
feet or 3x10 that he uh that the client would be allowed would be I think too small. would bring down that J to say an 18 or a 16inch letter. But uh you give a if you look at that bottom one if you could move down to one to the bottom the uh the uh view of across from Route 27
that one there that is a scaled view of that sign from across Route 20 I'm sorry from across Veronica Avenue. >> Okay. So uh would in you know in your expert opinion as as a sign expert do you think that appropriately fits the
size of the wall? I think so. >> Okay. Uh I I have no further questions uh for for Mr. McCarrick uh unless unless the board would like to follow. >> I just have one question. You say you you routinely do signs for Jersey Mike. >> Jersey Mike's Massage Envy European Wax
Center. >> Is is uh this size the standard size that you use most of the time or how many times let's say are you fitting in with what our ordinance would say? slightly smaller. >> More often times than not, you have to
you have to try to fit into what's to the ordinance. You don't you don't want to have to go for a variance if you don't have to. Certain municipalities don't even allow illuminated signs. So, you have to go a different way with that. But here was a case where because of the location, I thought it would be
wise to tweak up the size from we would make them as as large as 60 in by 14 ft. But again, the code allowed for a 30 uh uh 30 square ft. So we we did the 3x we did a 3x10 in the front. We proposed a
3x10 originally on the side as well, but of course it was denied for other reasons. >> So Mr. Chairman, I just want to remind you that the board had an application very recently. It was uh the application was Muhammad but he was doing a taco store. There was the same exact type
variance and the board made the granted the variance for the sign facing the road, but the board made them comply with the 30- foot, you know, square foot requirement and also complied with the three-foot vertical dimension. I also mentioned that Dunkin Donuts sign
complies. And as you can see in that exhibit, that's Veronica. That pavement right there is Veronica. So, I don't know how you could argue any type of hardship about visibility. The building basically looms over Veronica Avenue. So, I don't understand how a 30 square
foot sign is going to have any issue with visibility. It's going to be plenty visible. So, and and I just caution the board about being fair to other businesses, frankly, who have to comply with that same 30 square foot maximum and the 3-ft
vertical dimension. I personally, I mean, know we haven't heard from the planner, I don't see a hardship issue, and I don't understand how this is a better zoning alternative for C2. The issue about visibility and needing to have a sign on Veronica personally that
one I can understand and all the testimony offered by the business owner I can I can agree with but I deal with applicants all day long. So I would just caution the board about giving relief on the size and the vertical dimension where everybody else needs to comply.
question for you, Mark. And I don't know if you'll remember, >> the shops at Pier Street. >> I They all complied. >> They That's what I That's the question I was going to ask because the shops at
Pier Street that are actually on Pier Street are reverse frontage. Yes, that's similar to this. >> We allowed them with a variance to put a sign on the rear wall, which is the side facing the street. And what you're saying is what I thought. They're all
compliant. >> Yes. As well as the taco one you approved, I think last month. >> Granting the variance for the sign may not be unusual. then granting the variance for size seems to
be very >> I personally see no justification for that. Whereas again the location the having visibility on Veronica so customers and delivery people can locate it and I can I personally you know I think the testimony from the from the
applicant was persuasive. I can understand how customers and people going to that site might not know that location because of that. I I think that is there is a hardship situation there for that and I think it could be argued on kind of stealing your planner thunder but I think it also be a better zoning
alternative to the driving public to know where this location is. Um and it is somewhat of a unique layout in terms of you know having the rear of the building facing the road and not having signage. That's the way our ordinance works. So they need to come to you for relief. So that's my position. Um, and I
just wanted to again just offer that to the board. >> Other comments from the board or questions? >> Okay. >> Yeah. I I I would just like the opportunity to respond to Mr. Healey's comments briefly. Um, so I I would draw
a distinction between Jersey Mike's and and Dunkin Donuts and that Jersey Mike's is set further back than Dunkin Donuts and I I understand your comments about visibility from Veronica Avenue, but we're also trying to achieve visibility from uh north by for northbound drivers
on uh NJ27. So obviously Jersey Mike would be set f you know somewhat significantly further back from 27 uh than Dunkin Donuts would. Uh otherwise I I you know your your assessment is a fair one uh in terms of you know the
placement of the sign is well justified but the the size of the sign from Veronica uh that might might be questionable but really the size could be justified by visibility from NJ27. And uh to that to that point uh Jesse do you know what the the speed limits are
uh on on either Veronica Avenue or NJ27? I don't want to misquote them, but I I usually travel Veronica a Avenue the most. I think it's 40 miles an hour perhaps. >> Okay. But I if anyone knows better. Um >> yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Um and I'm unsure about
uh 27. >> Okay. And and Mr. McCrack, in your experience, is this size sign appropriate for cars driving by at that speed limit to to catch their eye as opposed to let's say they were driving by slowly at 25? >> I feel it's Yes, I feel it's appropriate. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh, I have no further
questions for either of these witnesses, but I uh obviously still would like to call our professional planner, Mr. Kevin. >> Well, we we won't open till the public until you're finished. >> Thank you, >> sir. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give before this board is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
>> I do. >> Just repeat your name, spell your last name for a record, please. >> Kevin O'Brien. O B R I N. Christine, you getting me? >> Is it Is this working? Okay, great. Thank you. >> Do you need this? >> We never want Miss Christine to be angry
at anybody. Uh, not yet. Uh, Kevin O'Brien, Shamrock Enterprises, Rowway, New Jersey. Uh, still licensed as a professional planner. Uh, no, um, adverse actions have been taken against
my license. My qualifications remain roughly the same. May have added another board or two on the belt. >> We'll accept you. I just like to hear you say it. >> You embarrass me. But thank you, chairman. Now, if only I had Mr. Shepard's hat, I would look far more
dapper. >> So, Kevin, what can you tell us about uh the variance relief we're seeking and why it might be justified under the MLU? >> Sure. I I think it's important for the board to consider
what its power and duty is here. Uh Mr. Healey has opined about this application. He has not heard all the testimony. Uh he's given you his advice. Uh he's also discussed how other applications
have come before this board. Your duty as a board, if I may remind you, is to judge every application based upon the unique set of circumstances. And just because Harry got a varance
doesn't mean that Sally gets one because Harry got a sign and Sally wants a sign. No, Harry wants a big sign and Harry wants it 50 feet away from the street. Sally wants a smaller sign and it's closer to the street.
>> Each application has to be judged on its you unique characteristics. That's your job. You take the ordinance, which is a one-sizefits-all, and when there's a problem, they've got
to come to you, and you've got to say, you know, the ordinance didn't anticipate everything we can imagine because the world's a complicated place. So, it's up to you to say, "All right, applicant, show us why you deserve to have a variance."
You've got to show us those unique characteristics that apply only to this property. We've got to show you that we meet the positive criteria, meeting the master plan, the land use law. We meet the negative criteria and
that it won't have a negative effect on the neighborhood or on the township as a whole. And then once you've heard all the testimony and once you've heard about the characteristics of this property and the characteristics of this application. Am I too loud Christine?
Am I too loud? Am I right? Okay. Thank you. Then you can make an informed decision and that's what we're asking you to do this evening. So we're asking for three variances this evening. The first is the placement of the sign on the side of the
building that doesn't have an entrance. The sign area 30 ft are permitted. We're asking for 41.8. The vertical dimension 3T are allowed. We're asking for 3.58 43 in. One of the problems is that you've heard
that we are not allowed. We have not been able to get onto the pylon sign because there is no more room available. So in terms of proving this application to you, what are the unique aspects?
Jersey Mike's has a sign facing the shopping center. None on Veronica Veronica have Dunkin Donuts, same building, has two signs on Somerset. and they've got not just a sign, but
taking a look at the at the uh photograph, a readily identifiable drive up area. Everybody who looks at that, oh that's orange, that's Dunkin Donuts. So signs not only serve as a way to locate a
place, but they also serve as an advertisement to remind people of the brand and remind them this is where we are. So you can go back and hopefully frequent us without signage on Victoria. The
applicant has testified people have a hard time finding them and orders are going to other locations because people drive by and they say there's no Jersey mics here because they don't see anything. I do note that the TRC staff report
written by our good friend Mr. Healey did raise no objection to the location of the sign. After the stop and shop closed, it became necessary for each individual property to make its location known.
Beforehand, you could just say, "Come to Stop and Shop. We're there." You could drive in, look around. Okay, you're over there. But without that, without that there, each individual property, each
individual business has got to make its presence known. And this is how Jersey Mike's has got to do it. Their sales are down 18%. Compared to other stores in the area, and yet there's more traffic here. So, what do they have to do to make up
for it? The master plan in terms of the positive criteria does talk about uh one goal of encourage commercial and industrial development in areas with access to mal major regional highways and in
established areas which this is locate major employment and traffic drawing uses in areas where they would least impact residential neighborhoods which this does. Lastly, concentrate commercial development into districts
where residential densities can support commercial activities and this application meets those goals. The municipal land use law uh also supports the goals of this application. purp the this application as a whole. Uh
item A encourage municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health, safety, morals and general welfare. And what promotes the general welfare more than going out and having a good stop?
I thought somebody might laugh. I'm sorry. G. Provide sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of uses to serve the needs of all New Jersey citizens. I promote a desirable visual environment and M encourage coordination of the
various public and private procedures shaping land development to a more efficient use of the land. Will this application have any negative impact? In short, no. As you take a look at the sign that's
proposed in the wall currently, that's a pretty ugly big blank wall. Not a lot of thought went into that. As Mr. Healey said a little while ago, that's a that's a big space facing Veronica and yet it's just a big blank
wall with no interest whatsoever. adding a sign of this type which not only identifies the business within but takes away that blankness and adds interest to the wall and to the area I
think is a positive. It's a positive part of this application. Should this business not be able to succeed at this location, the township's going to lose 18 jobs. It's going to have all this space that's going to be vacant in a vibrant shopping
center. I think that's a positive in keeping those jobs and keeping this location. And so I don't see a negative impact. I believe this application has met the burden of proof based on both the C1 and
the C2 v C1 and CH sorry C1 and C2 criteria. There's a hardship based on the location of the front of the store on the lot. It's not visible from the adjacent roadways. I believe that's a C1 hardship. The actual location of this
sign, proposed sign on the blank wall that does not have an entry. I believe the size and height of the sign are justified by the C2 criteria. The larger sign is needed for visibility. You've heard the sign expert
state that at 40 mph, Veronica Avenue needs a bigger sign. Dunkin Donut. >> That's not exactly what he said. He didn't say that the the 40 mph speed limit required a bigger sign. I didn't hear him say that.
>> Let's bring him back. got him on the record. >> Mr. McCerrick, you you heard Yes. >> You heard the the testimony of the planner >> and the clarification from from the board member. Does does uh 40 m hour require a larger sign?
>> I think it would be more effective that size. Yes. >> The better question is that I just asked that Mr. O'Brien said is that you said it required. Did it require? >> I I did. I didn't I didn't think I used the word required. >> Okay. Now, you also testified that in
other locations you've had to modify the size and of the sign because of zoning issues. >> Correct. >> And they have had to uh bring things down in size and dimension because of that. >> Yes. because a lot of clients don't want
to have to go through the expense and the hassle, for lack of a better word, of going through a variance procedure. >> That's true. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> And and M. McCerrick, in those other instances, uh if you recall, did those other uh Jersey Mike operators face the
same type of visibility issues that this operator faces? >> I think that this particular location is very unique. I have to say that. Um, when I when I looked at this property over a year and a half ago, two years ago, when it was just stuttered and
sheetrocked or I mean plywood, I didn't realize that where how it was all going to be laid out. There was nothing that I had, no real solid plan of where the Dunkin Donuts was going to go because it's all under major construction. So, when we applied for the signage, uh, I
thought he was allowed two. Uh, we applied, but again, you never know. So, I applied on separate different applications. one for the front for your parking lot and one for the one on Veronica Avenue which was denied because it wasn't over an entrance. So again, size I knew was an issue from Mr. De and
his review of that and the zoning department at that time. So I knew was I knew was an issue that it had to be 36 square feet which would be compliant. So the first thing I ask a client is do you want to go for a variance? This is not going to pass. This is going to cut the mustard. More oftenimes than not, no
they don't because they're just opening up. it's it's an unproven uh location so on so forth and and they don't you know quite honestly I hope that answers your question Mr. Shepard. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Don't let them go. >> So to correct my testimony uh I believe
we've heard that uh the expert on signage has said that a larger sign is more effective for people traveling at 40 miles an hour on Veronica Avenue. And a reminder that Dunkin Donuts has
two signs on Veronica. And even though they don't have a variance for the drive up, it's still a sign because it tells people where they are. So there is an advantage there for them. I believe we've demonstrated that the
application can be reconciled with the master plan, the ordinance, and the municipal land use law. I believe we've shown that we have met the negative criteria, shown that there are no detriments and that the benefits of granting this application far
outweigh the detriments. And I can conclude that this application can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without substantial impairment to the zone plan and the zoning ordinance. And I welcome any questions.
>> Anyone? So I have a question. This sign is the building is 25 feet from the front setback along Veronica about 40 feet to the curb. How is this any more of a
hardship for visibility than the other businesses in this very shopping center in the larger building that had to comply with the 30 square foot who are hundreds of feet away from Veronica Avenue, not visible from Veronica, not
visible to Route 27. How is that location more of a hardship than these others? >> Well, there are two pieces there. And the first piece is location. >> My argument is that the location of this sign
on the blank wall that has no entry >> requires a variant. Let me clarify my question. I'm talking about the size, Jesse. So, the size, why does that sign need to be bigger when the other signs in the shop in this very shopping center comply with the 30 square feet?
>> Uh, Mr. Allen, have the other have the other stores that comply all been successful? >> Sorry. Um, that's a good question. It's important to note that the uh plaza, I believe, has seen three business closures so far this year. And uh we have had a negative the entire plaza has
had a negative sales impact from stop and shop closing as well. So, I just wanted to >> What proof does that have to do with anything to do with the signs? >> I I believe your your your point was >> Sorry, I didn't mean to offend >> Let Let me Let me respond to Mr. Healey. What does that have to do with the
signs? You you mentioned that all of the other businesses comply and so that doesn't that somehow makes it so that we can't justify our request for variance. But those some of those other complying businesses have gone out of business and my client is interested in staying in business. So that's why we're requesting
a slightly larger sign. You know, someone described it as a dimminimous deviation from from the ordinance. Um, and also I I would note that the applicant testified earlier that they don't have access to that pylon sign. So all of those other businesses have extra
signage on the site that Jersey Mike does not have. That's the distinction between the two. >> As far as the pylon sign, that's between you and the landlord. If they want to have an be on the pylon sign if they need to expand it. Make an application to get on the pylon sign. That that's
not a board the board's issue. >> I don't believe it's for the board to look at this sign application and look at the other signs on the property. It's not appropriate. We're here for this sign at this
location in this application. What everybody else has done both in this shopping center and throughout the township has no bearing whatsoever on this application. None. I would submit that to the board. Because what do they have?
Why are we equating them to this? Do we have their statistics in front of us? Do we know what their sales are? Do we know what their distance is from the roadway? No, we don't have any of that here. It's inappropriate for us to start
comparing this sign on this building with the other signs at this plaza. >> I would contend >> any other questions, comments if you're >> So, um I don't know if this comment is
allowed or not, but uh in that same plaza there is an Indian restaurant. I think it was referred in there and uh one of the times I was speaking with the owner I don't know him personally
but he was present there u I know their locations on Eastern Avenue is busy and they remain open till 4 a.m. because they are near Rutgers. So I asked him how this location is doing and he's like
you know it is struggling. So I'm not saying it has got anything to do with signage or not but I have seen that plaza struggle.
And my second comment would be if it's not hurting anybody. Okay. If it's not detrimental and if a business has a succeeding chance, maybe the board should consider that.
That is just my two cents. >> I I would agree with that. I think um I don't see like what harm it causes. Uh I mean I understand it's different than the other ones, but u I guess not having signage on 27 already sounds like that's
a major. I'll just say that I I again I don't want to make a monumental case out of this. I I >> frankly I think the I think the I think the >> I'm talking about fairness to the other businesses in Franklin Township. >> Quite frankly, that's not something for the consider if I can finish.
Other businesses come in every single day for signage and they're made to comply. And honestly, I think the testimony about this this about the size it's they're saying it's dimminimous, meaning it's not that big of a a change.
So, make it slightly smaller to comply just like every other sign, every other business. Why should they have excellent visibility? They're right on top of Veronica. So, comply, but the board can do what you wish. Any other comments?
>> Service to other businesses in town. >> Any questions? That's it. Uh, I'll open to the public. >> That's that's the conclusion of our presentation. Thank you. >> All right. We'll open the hearing to the public. If anyone wants to make a statement concerning the application or
ask a question concerning any of the testimony, please come up to the podium. And we need your name and address since you may give a statement. You need to be sworn in. Okay. Benjamin Guy, 35 Patton Drive. Um,
so the the comments I got here is just about for the board is about what's the real value of what they're doing. Is it about economics, employing people, or is it about control? So that's the only problem I got. That's the only thing I got here because what's being talked
about right now is minimal because if we're talking about employing people and keeping the economy going in the area, I think that's more important to than a major a little compliancy variation that's there. And I understand Mr. Healey's point being fair to every businesses, but we have to talk about
the the whole premise of what's going on in Franklin Township period. Is it more important for us to employ people during this part specific time frame or to be arguing about the dimensions of a sign? So my whole point of this is that if the person stated that pretty much his sales
is down and this can help boost sales so we can keep people employed here. I think that we should give the I think abortion get really can heavily consider that because the simple fact is of what's going on in the area especially on 27 because if you ride up and down 27 on the other side of 27 people can get
away with murder on our side is not fair half the time that's going on there and I I can speak to that from what's going on South Brunswick all the way down to uh all the way down to Franklin Park and everybody else because I know how we how we push for a lot of stuff that's here. It happens around the town for everywhere. I sit on the Hamilton Street
board so I know about compliancy what's going on because again people suffer. If a business owner is trying to prosper here I think we should try to start pushing for advocacy to try to help them as much as possible. And again a minor thing in a sign on on on a on a high
visibly roadway right Veronica and to roof 27 high visibly way. We need people to actually stay there and again for him to attract business not on our just our side but on the Middle Sex County side of it. I think that we should look at look at actually trying to permit this guy to actually move forward with this whole thing. So that's my testimony for
right now. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? >> Okay. Then we'll close to the public. Anything you want to add? >> I guess can I ask another question? So I guess I do understand Mark's point that
you have more than enough visibility from Veronica Avenue. It's just 40 ft or so. And how far is it from 27 if you were just driving by? >> Very close. >> Very close. >> I I I would be estimating, but it's a
lot more than 40 feet. I I can assure you that. Uh this is if you look at the exhibit that's displayed on the screen right now, uh where I'm hovering my cursor, that's Route 27. >> How long is the building? How many building sections? >> This is over 200.
>> Yeah. So it's it's over 200 feet. >> Anybody? Anyone else? >> If if I may, I'd like to ask a question. And I'm just going to use whole numbers, so forgive me. Um, ordinance allows 30 square ft. You're asking for 40ish square ft. Um, and the testimony that's
been provided is the additional size. And I don't think anyone is debating the the location of the sign. It's the additional size, the square footage. Um, how far away uh is that 30 square ft sign visible relative to 40 square ft?
How much of an advantage are you getting from the 10 square ft additional? >> I wish I could answer that accurately for you. Unfortunately, I cannot. I'd have to see it at dusk in morning, at night when it's lit. I mean, it's it's hard to say. >> Of course,
>> it's very difficult to say. >> Yeah. And and and I think that is maybe part of the crutch that we're struggling with here as a board on the size. Is it >> 10 feet? Is it 100? Like, if you were able to demonstrate that this 10 square
feet provided an additional 500 ft of visibility, I think you convinced us all that, yeah, let's go. We want that. But the testimony has been more based on my experience and that the additional 10 square feet is going to increase sales
and in the way I look at it respectfully is the additional sign whether it's 30 ft or 40 ft. I'm not sure there's a whole net benefit to the additional 10 square ft without testimony um through you know engineering science something that demonstrate this and I'll allow you
to respond. That's my comment. If I could just make a comment only it would be very difficult to calculate that because of different conditions. Obviously the reason that we decided to or I decided to expand it to that size was just because of the way it took over
that big gray side of that building and made it look like it wasn't a warehouse or or just an empty building. So I I went a little bit larger by 10 by roughly 10 square feet. uh an increase was it was a modest increase in the size of the sign just to make it look like
it's it wasn't lost on the building. Sure. You know, >> why is the building gray? I mean, who who controls the facade? >> Good question. >> So, I mean, I'm just looking at this and and I mean, you do this for a living. you know, the the branding, the the the
Jersey Mike's logo and lettering is X square feet and and the blue background with the I guess red trim is >> of course >> is complimentary to that. Why not just paint a part of the building blue and and then have the white sign or or something to that effect and still remain compliant? >> That that's a corporate that's a
corporate design. Uh I can't change their their logo. It's their brand. I can't change it. >> No, but this is what we're considering as a board. It's it's not well corporate says this that that really isn't something I I think we opine on. It's the effect of of the actual variance
being granted or being asked for. So I I don't think that anyone on this board wants to be unreasonable and you know I mean I love Jersey Mike. Um I want to see you guys succeed. I I love it. But you know I just don't think at this point in time the proofs for the the
larger square footage is is there. >> So uh Mr. Carrick did testify earlier that if you the s if the sign was to be shrunk to comply with the ordinance then the the the size of those letters would shrink from 22 in to about 16 in and
that's about proportionally. So that's about a 30% difference >> but didn't change the logo modified. I mean it was the testimony was that it was previously modified from the typical um branding I think it was. >> No that is logo that can't be modified.
I thought you said you made some minor changes to the >> only in the size. >> Oh, okay. Sorry. >> And like for example, if I could have the mic, >> if you take a look at the the copy that says since 1956, that's that can be made to illuminate.
That can be made to non- illuminate. Same with the word subs. But proportionately, those signs are to that exact dimension. And if it's shrunk down to a two by, it's, you know, instead of a 43 in by, if it's shrunk down to a two by, those those dimensions get shrunk
down proportionally, as do the the colors are consistent throughout. >> Okay. That was just I think >> if I wasn't clear on that, I apologize. >> No, no, absolutely. I think I I misunderstood, but I just wanted to, I guess, give at least my perception of the where the board stands or at least
that's my opinion specifically. I mean, want to see Jersey mics do well. don't want to see businesses go out of business for for revenue, but you know, I I'm just having a hard time on the additional 10 square feet. >> Yeah. So, you you did ask for for numbers. So, that I think the best number that the applicant can offer you
is 30%. It would increase visibility by 30%. Based on the size difference, >> how do you derive to that? >> This this this size sign is 30% larger than than the required sign. >> But that doesn't mean it increases visibility by 30%.
>> Right. So you you asked for a number and I'm I'm indicating that >> as an expert in the field of >> math 30%. >> You're an expert in the field of math. >> I I moonlight. Yes. >> I I mean I mean respectfully we we we
are a a governing board here. I'm not trying to make light of this situation, but you are not an expert in math in the eyes of this board. Respectfully. >> I appreciate that. I I simply did the math to figure out that six if the num size of the letters shrink from 22 in to
16 in that's a 30% difference that that is the extent of calculation that I did here >> thank you >> one of the things I'm not sure that this is being considered you're the sign
is basically the a logo it's it's a very recognizable logo in terms of Jersey Mike. I'm not sure why slightly smaller sign would impact that at all. People will
recognize that as the Jersey Mike's logo. Second thing is you're 200 feet off 27. You're having a hard time now convincing me that it'll have any real effect on
anybody traveling on Route 27. Between the traffic, it's going to take a a left turn to get to the place. uh they may look and see the sign when it's illuminated and clearly recognize it as
a logo, but I'm not sure a smaller size will have any effect on their recognition or not. The other thing is we might as well stop, you know, using the 40 m hour speed limit because at that location, nobody's going 40 miles
an hour and at the intersection on Route 27, people are lucky to be going four miles an hour. So size will be irrelevant in terms of that part. I have no problem whatsoever with the with the
concept of the sign. Uh, I think I still need a little convincing on the size, but any other questions, comments, want to sum up? >> I I think that the the board understands our position and the relief we're
seeking. It's three variances. Obviously the placement which uh many of the board members have opined or or discussed that uh there's little contention that this is an appropriate place to put the sign given the visibility issues for the location. So um a as to the
justification for the increased size of the sign. Uh I think visibility is one but also that large uh gray siding facade is another. Um, you know, we not only heard from the the sign expert that a larger sign would be more visible,
which stands to reason, but also that it more appropriately fits the space where it's being proposed. Uh, so for that, I I'll submit to the board. Again, we're just requesting three variances. Placement of the sign, uh, and area of the sign and vertical dimension of the
sign. Thank you. >> Okay, board members, any questions, discussions, or motions? Um, I I think I think that I have the uh that that divided feeling about the location of the sign.
I get that. Um, I also agree with uh what the chairman just said about speeds on Route 27 and Veronica A in that location. Um, I don't think that's going to be an issue. Uh really I don't think that this sign is going to make any
difference for them on Route 27, but on ver on Veronica it will. I just I just don't understand uh the importance of the small change in the uh size. Uh I
don't I don't think that um that it is uh is something that is um appropriate for um a um a variance here because of the I believe that it is diminished and
it just should be um they should just be um required to comply uh with the ordinance for the size issues. But for the location, um I believe that uh that it would be appropriate. With that in
mind, I'm going to mo make a uh I move that we grant JAT2 LLC um the three variances necessary to allow them to place uh a sign a building sound a mounted sign at 1165 Route 27 uh
in Somerset um block uh 8801 lot 43 in the uh GB zone. Is there a second? >> I'll second. >> And just to clarify, the movement was to
grant approval for all three, >> right? Because that's what they're asking for. >> You you can make a movement. You can move and have and modify the the request, >> right, council? >> Right. But I >> I just want to make sure
>> your motion includes the approval for variance in size. Correct. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, just so we don't have an issue, if anyone is declining it or saying no, they need to specifically say
why. Correct, Brian? >> Yes. >> Okay. I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not saying you're going to say no, but >> And if we say yes, can we also explain why? >> Brian, sorry. >> Go ahead. Ask him.
I I guess I mean since there is like discussion I said if if you are saying yes could you also explain why in spite of that I guess you >> right I think you should in this case >> okay I just want to make sure >> so I I think what I'm going to do we can
bifurcate this can't we do can we do two motions can we do first the motion on the location and then do a uh >> well I then then you should make two separate uh right Oh, go ahead. >> I can do that, right? >> Okay. So,
>> wait, wait, wait, hold on, cuz I have to put it on the sheet. So, if you're you're making two motions, three variances, though. So, which two are going together so I know how to write it? >> Well, the the one is going to the location. >> Okay.
>> And the second one goes to the size uh and the height of the proposed sign. >> Okay. So, Brian, do I >> Why do you start with the location? >> Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Okay. >> Right. Start with location. Right.
>> Okay. So, I'm going to call your names and you're going to vote yes or no solely for the location. Richard pro Richard Proanic. >> Yes. >> Basim Verdas. >> Yes. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. On the location.
>> Robert Shepard. >> Yes. >> Kunal Lakia. >> Yes. Supin Shupendu Singh. >> Yes. >> And Chairman Thomas. >> Yes. >> Okay. So now I'm going to call your names again strictly for the size and height. >> If I may, just for the the sake of the
record, my apologies for interrupting, but was there a second to the motion? I just want to ensure >> it was Robert Shepard first ited and then Vasim Verda second. >> Thank you for the clarification. >> Okay. So size and height Richard Proanic. >> No, I I did have a little bit of a
monologue. Do I need to repeat that or can I just refer? No, you need to do it now. Do it again. >> Yeah. Um, so, um, my my vote is no for the size. Um, I I don't believe there has been enough evidence put on the record, uh, to support the proofs, uh,
for the larger sign. Uh, the the one piece of information I think that I was really looking for is how is the visibility increased in terms of linear footage from the sign and what that ultimate benefit would be for the operator. Um, so I'm happily voting for the the size, the sign location, but
unfortunately I'm going to vote no for the size. >> Thank you. Uh, Vasim Berdas, >> I think I'm going to vote yes because I u I do understand that u, you know, this is kind of a unique case. I live two
miles from there and until I saw it on the agenda, I had no idea there was Jersey mics there and I too love Jersey Mike. So I I think a larger sign would be more visible and uh I don't know if I'm an expert or not but I do have a PhD in chemical engineering and I think it's
very obvious that that a larger sign and that 30% increase seems like right you know right in the right right range and a 30% larger sign would give more visibility and I I feel like they need all the visibility they
can get so I'm going to vote yes. Thank you, Gary Rosenthal. >> Oh, I like uh can't agree with my good partner here. I would have liked to see a smaller sign and that would have
solved everything. But uh since uh the applicant didn't see that um I'm going to vote yes, but I'm not happy with the larger sign.
>> I'm sorry. You're voting yes, but you're not happy with the larger sign. >> I'm voting yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh Robert Shepard, >> I'm going to vote no. Um I uh I agree that the sign uh is appropriate, but I
don't see that the there have been proofs that show that the small addition in size here uh since even since it's outside of what's permitted under the uh the ordinance, I don't see how that
there's been proofs that it's going to do uh anything in terms of their sales. I think it's uh the location is going to make a difference only in traffic on Veronica and um I'm I'm going to vote
no. >> Thank you. Kunala. >> So I'm going to vote yes. Um my reasons are it is not hurting anybody.
It may help the business and I really hope it does. Like everybody else or many others here, I also like Jersey Mike and I want the business to succeed in Franklin. Um there are many times some things come to us here and uh we we constantly talk
about oh we should have more business coming in here and here's a business that's coming to us uh for a signage which is a little bigger and I agree uh with my colleague that uh and I'm an electronics engineer a
little bigger sign will definitely be more visible and For me, if I look at this paper, okay, which is equivalent to that wall, if I write it small here, I'm going to
struggle reading it. While if it's bigger, it's like even in your presentation, when we make presentations, your front slide, your font is a little larger. Um I very
respectfully I I understand where Mark is coming from. Okay. But I believe there have been cases I believe it was bottle king or somebody on 27 and I could be wrong uh which had come to us
in past and I believe we had given some variance to them also. Uh so it's incumbent upon the business to come up and say hey listen it may cause me some problems can you give me some variance then of course it's up to the board to
agree or not agree. Uh so based on all of this on based on my humble opinion I'm saying and voting yes. >> Thank you. Uh Shapindu Singh >> I would vote yes as well. I am going to
be on the side of the business here. uh a bigger sign will give better visibility and uh this gives this business a better chance to be successful and uh we would love to for them to be more successful. So I vote yes. >> Thank you. Chairman Thomas,
>> I'll vote no. I think sign is necessary. I think it'll give it a good visibility where the visibility opportunity exists on Veronica Avenue. And I didn't see I'm I'm not convinced of any of the evidence
presented that the difference in the size of the sign will make any difference whatsoever since everybody admits it's the minimus anyway. uh hasn't been hasn't been proven that the
size you know the the increase the size variance part of it will make enough difference to justify a variance. >> Okay. Thank you. So the final vote Brian
is uh three no and four yes. It >> passes. Okay. >> Thank you very much. Thank you all. Appreciate it. >> Okay. >> Now, if I can find this,
>> that's exactly what I'm going to do. >> Oh, yeah. That's right. that >> I'll be I'll be going with Okay. >> Okay.
Downtown 54. Um, how about we'll take one trip back in the past. Is anybody from uh what is it? Jeffrey Dunham. >> No, it is here.
>> Oh, okay. Houndtown 543 Incorporated, ZBA2515. Use variance in which the applicant's asking permission to operate the cannabis dispensary 1695 Amwell Road, Somerset, block 386.04,
lots 36 to 38 in the R20 zone. And you are representing them also, right? Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, good evening once again, chairman and board members. Uh, my name once again is John Duca with the law
firm Savo Shock and I am here tonight representing the applicant Houndtown 543 Incorporated. Uh, which is under the control of Gary Bernett who >> Oh, I apologize. You're right. Um, like I I I'll start from the beginning. My name is John Duca of the law firm Savo
Shock. Here tonight representing the applicant, Houndtown 543 Incorporated, which is under the control of Gary Bernett, a local Franklin Township resident. You will hear from Mr. Bernett later on in the presentation. The location of this property is right nearby. It's 1695 Amwell Road, Somerset,
New Jersey. That's designated as block 368.04. and it's three lots, lot 36, 37, and 38. This is in the R20 zoning district where retail commercial use is not permitted. And the applicant is seeking a D1 use
variance to operate a class 5 cannabis retail dispensary. Uh, this is a pre-existing non-conforming property. It's historically been used for commercial purposes. uh and it will not significantly increase the traffic as you'll hear both from the operator and
from our traffic expert this evening. Uh the applicant is engaged in extensive community community outreach and coordination uh to bring this application before you tonight and to obtain necessary approvals and licenses before uh coming before this board. Uh and this this business will generate
tremendous economic benefits to the site and also to the community at large. So, uh, before we go any further, I just want to orient the board, uh, to the site. So, this the the exhibit that you have in front of you on paper is also being displayed on the screens. Uh, if you flip to page two, you'll see the the
zoning map. So, this is the zoning map that's publicly available uh through your local through your township ordinances and through your website. And I've zoomed in on this zoning map to show you where the subject property exists within the R20 zone. It's right around the corner from this municipal building at the intersection of Deontat
Lane and Amwell Road. Uh this gives you another aerial view. Uh zoomed out a little bit. Those three rectangles that are highlighted are the site itself. Uh and as we continue through, you zoom in. These are just a couple. This is a
Google Maps aerial view just so you understand where where we're talking about. Uh there's there's the site, parking lot, and the building. Here's a here's a view from Damont Lane. You could see uh the bike and gear sign uh which we'll talk about a little bit later what's
happening to the other uses on the site. And then here's a view from Amwell Road looking at the site. So as you'll hear testimony uh soon you'll you'll hear that that that's where the that signed bicycles that half
of the building is where uh part of where the dispensary dispensary will be placed and then the deli uh will remain. So uh this is a this is a site survey that was prepared in the past but it was submitted as part of the application. And so I just again wanted to show the
board uh exactly the site we're talking about the three lots we're talking about uh 36 37 and 38. So uh the existing uses on the site uh there is a deli. It's pre-existing non-conforming commercial commercial use and it has patrons that frequently come and go and that's going
to remain. Uh there also is a bicycle repair shop. Again that's a pre-existing non-conforming commercial use with patriot with patrons periodically coming and going. It was recently part of it was recently vacated and a portion of it is going to remain. Uh and then you also
have two two-bedroom apartments on the top floor. Again, that's a pre-existing non-conforming residential use. The zone does not permit uh two family and it does not permit apartments. It permits single family homes and that is also going to remain. So, the initial proposed use on the site is a cannabis
retail dispensary. This is a proposed non-conforming commercial use that will have patrons periodically or frequently coming and going. and uh it's proposed. So, you'll hear from four witnesses tonight. As I mentioned, Mr. Gary Bernett. He's the owner and operator of the proposed establishment, and he is a
local Franklin Township residents for uh 18 years. Uh next, you'll after Mr. Bernett, you will hear from Mr. Marcus Rosenau, who is an expert in the field of architecture. Then you'll hear from Rihanna Kirchoff, who is a traffic engineer. And finally, you'll once again have the pleasure of hearing from Mr.
Kevin O'Brien, our professional planner. So, uh, unless the board has any housekeeping items, I'd like to call up my first witness, Mr. Gary Bernett, to be sworn in to testify. >> Mr. Chairman, just one question for Mr. Duca. Mr. Duca, do you know, um, how the
use came to be? What was the the existing commercial and the two apartments? Was that a I know that site has historically been used for commercial purposes, but um as far as the um you know there's a hair salon on the other site and this site's been the
deli and the bike shop for a long time and the two apartments. Was there a use variance? Do you happen to know along the line or was there certification of pre-existing non-conforming use? >> Admittedly, I'm speculating. I don't believe there's a there was a use variance. It was my understanding there was a pre-existing non-conforming. Whether other variances have been
obtained in the interim, I am not sure. Okay. All right. Thank you. Sir, if you can raise your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give before this board is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do.
>> Can you restate your name, spell your last name for the record? >> Gary Bernett. B U R N T. Thank you. >> So, Mr. Bernett, uh, I'm going to pass the floor over to you for a little bit and I want you to explain your background and your approach to this
business. >> Thank you, Council. Um, good evening, Chairman Thomas. Uh, members of the board, it's indeed a pleasure to come before you and present our case for a variance to operate a cannabis dispensary on on Ammo Road. >> Mr. Bernett, can you talk more into the
mic, please? >> Absolutely. So once again, good evening uh chairman. >> Sounds better. >> Robert and members of the board. It's indeed a pleasure to come before you and present our application for a variance use of a cannabis retail dispensary on Ammo Road. Uh so I'd like to take a few
minutes and just give you some background on myself as a professional and as a leader within the community and uh someone who's just committed to, you know, being a sound partner in our town and in our state. I would say that's been my trademark and I'd like to continue to bring that to Frank Franklin
Township. Uh so professionally I've worked in the healthcare space I mean for over two decades right as a seasoned project manager. Clearly it's a highly regulated industry. Uh those are experiences I mean that I plan to bring to the cannabis industry and I'll highlight that as we go through um the presentation this evening. Uh from a
leadership perspective you I've held various leadership positions again in the corporate space and also in the nonprofit sector. So again, you know, these are all experiences mean that I plan to bring in as an operator and be responsible around it. Also, as a resident of Franklin Township, I've been in town for over 15 years. Um, clearly,
you know, making an investment in property and also as an investor owning other real estate properties. I mean, within the town, so I've demonstrated that commitment to being a partner in town and continue to do so with this business venture. Next slide. Um so just want to sort of highlight uh
some of the things you know I bring to the table as an operator or you know expert expertise I would say to um operate a successful business. I think we heard that in our earlier testimony and I think I've heard that consistently from the board that is very vital right I mean that we bring expertise into town
that make businesses I mean successful which requires I mean clearly fiscal responsibility so as an operator right of managed projects I mean that exceeds um millions of dollars. So cannabis dispensary um these numbers are very familiar. Um in the space of healthcare clearly you know patient satisfaction is
key. It is no different in the cannabis industry where patient and customer satisfaction are key. Those are all expertise that I plan to make very transferable. Um as a project manager seasoned project manager clearly um have a full handle on scope and on-time delivery. So with that you know we do
plan to run a very efficient operation right and ensure that all stakeholders involved I mean are taken into consideration and once more again you know just from a compliance perspective it is very clear that you know there's a lot of similarities I mean between healthcare and compliance uh between uh
healthcare and and and cannabis so therefore mean that it becomes extremely transferable and we want to bring that to the table in this business. >> Excuse me what did you do in the healthc care space? Um I worked in New York City um for a firm um Emblem Health where I
served as the budget manager for several years. We became the third largest plan in New York City. Um after leaving that became you know the director of IT and program management which meant that we were responsible for all Medicare Medicaid patients being within the city. So I oversaw all program management and
IT for the division. Beyond that I moved on to Emblem Health. They oversaw the healthcare system for New York City. also served as their program manager for all projects and IT services. >> Thanks. >> Perfect. Um so just to highlight you
know some similarities I mean between healthcare and cannabis. Um clearly right I mean I think we all know healthcare system is just highly regulated from the managed care system all the way down. It's the same in cannabis, right? I mean, the CRC has created very strict guidelines for how we operate as uh within the business and
also how we operate with our partners, right? As as you know, dollars in the healthcare system flows down from the state. Likewise, um in cannabis, you know, our regulator regulations are going to flow down from the state. So, we expect to bring those uh into town and be a very sound operator. Um
healthcare no different than cannabis. I mean, requires requires being partnerships. partnership, partnerships up and down um our delivery system from working with the government, healthcare providers, um delivery, pharmacy, name it. Cannabis is no different, right? We
have to deal with our growers, we have to deal with delivery, we have to deal with customers, we have to deal with the municipalities, right? And more importantly, we have to deal with the community, right? So, I think, you know, those are partnership relationships. I mean, that's equally transferable that I want to bring to the town. And again once more just in terms of scale um the
dollars I mean managed in the healthcare system is very similar. We all know that the cannabis I mean is a um a very high dollar volume business. So therefore it is it is prudent and wise to have good fiscal responsibility being an operator and that I bring to the table as an
operator operator to this business. So let me talk to you a little bit about you know the business and then I'm sure we can get into some discussions later. um as the business I think you know um as an operator I'm community focused right that's just where I am at this is not about um just running a profitable
business and gaining um it's about being a community partner so first and foremost I mean you know we do intend to bring you know uh jobs I mean into town um at the current rate I think you know we're projecting to bring anywhere between 8 to 10 jobs into town clearly as a as a as a sound u business mean we
expect to generate revenues that will also translate into revenues I mean for the township Uh likewise, I mean, you know, we've been in conversations, I mean, with uh nonprofit groups within the area. So, we do expect to reinvest dollars into the township. It's not just about I mean, taking dollars and taking them out of town. Um again, you know, as
a as an operator, just being very strict around commitments, right? I mean, just ensuring that, you know, safety is paramount to us and likewise is compliance. Uh safety to ensure that, you know, we're following the CRC guidelines. I mean, to ensure that, you know, we're serving uh clients who are over the age of 21. Um there's clearly a
lot of um concerns around you know serving to minor. Yes. I mean between you know age checks and security and what we'll have within the store. We believe that you know we will be very committed to safety and compliance and then most of all also we're also you know very committed to education. Uh
there happens to be a lot of stigma around the use of cannabis both at a medical and at a recreational level. We believe that it's incumbent on us as operators, I mean, to address the education element of cannabis to ensure that both on the medical side that there are health benefits to it and on the
recreational side that people are using cannabis responsibly. That is one of our commitments as an operator to ensure that we bring that to the table. Moving on, just to share a little bit about the flow of the of the business. I think you know John did share with you
earlier that we will be sharing the space I mean with the bike shop which will take a small portion of the existing space. Uh the entrances I mean to the business will be the same uh facing Amal road. Uh we expect to have a flow through where customers mean come in one entrance to Amal road and we'll
exit through the back which we share a common alleyway uh with the deli. Uh deliveries we don't expect that to come in through the front entrance. There's a side ramp which that will not mess with the customer flow. So we expect that again you know deliveries I mean from uh
from our vendors will come up the ramp on the right hand side but we expect to see a very seamless flow from the front of the entrance from the front of the building through the back very minimal disruption to uh my customers and also our partners to the back who would be the deli. >> Where does the where does the the
bicycle repair uh business fit into this? Because it sounds like they're still going to be there but in some smaller way. Do they have a separate entrance for them? >> Correct. Yes. So the bike shop will remain we will be modifying the front of the building to have two entrances. One
for the bike shop to the left and one to the right uh for the dispensary. So there will be a dividing wall which would be very secure between the two spaces. >> Okay. Thanks. >> All right. Um so speaking again you know of our customer flow you know we do expect our customers I mean to enter the building through the Mont Lane which is
again the front the same as um uh the bike shop. Um upon entry into the building, age verification is mandatory both to enter the building and also upon the uh completion of a sale. So there will be two ID checks for our customers as they come into the building. Um our
model is such that you know we will have a concier service such that you know clients will not be able to come into the store and purchase on their own. Upon entering the store they will be escorted with an employee who would walk them through that sales experience. So we do not expect to mean customers to be roaming the store um you know
unregulated. that's that's uh that's not part of our part of our model. Um with that um as customers enter the store, right, they'll have that concierge experience. But from a safety perspective, we do intend to build a secure inventory vault uh to the back of
the building that's going to be um uh secured all the way around. I mean with very heavy mesh and also um um security devices mean so that we know who's going in and out of the vault at all times. um often said in the cannabis business. I mean there are some concerns around you
know odor and or you know products being exposed. Um it is safe to say that in our business there will be no cannabis products I mean open on the sales floor. That is completely illegal and we will adhere to that very strictly. Uh the only place in the store where there are cannabis products would be in the vault.
So whenever you walk into a store and this is minor education when you walk into a cannabis dispensary every display you see is a dummy box. there are no products in those in those boxes. All right. So, we expect to comply with that and ensure that all products I mean are held within um our storage facilities.
Um additionally, what I want to double down on that um when products come into the store again just to just to deal with the odor issue all products are delivered in sealed packages. So, there's never an issue where products are delivered in open packages. Neither do we have open packages existing within
the store. So all products mean upon delivery is in a sealed packet and leaves the dispensary in a in in a sealed packet. Uh I just want to also highlight that as a retail dispensary uh consumption is not allowed on our premise. So under no condition are we allowing consumption on the premise or
around the premise. That's just a big no no and we will adhere to that from a compliance perspective 110%. um doubling down on you know just uh staying compliant uh security is going to be uh uh a very big part of our operations. I mean staying again
compliant with the CRC guidelines where we'll have security cameras both in the interior of the building and the exterior of the building. Cameras will be on every entrance and all point of sale stations and also within the storage room so we know who's coming in and out. So there will be strict
compliance around how we deal uh with inventory. Uh jumping around a bit, I dealt with odor and consumption. Um that is a it's a no no for us, right? Uh we expect to mean again all products to be in sealed packages and consumption is not allowed under any conditions. So we
don't expect that to be an issue. >> And that's a state law. Is that correct? >> That is currently a state law. Correct. Um and I believe we know that Franklin Township at this point in time has not allowed for the consumption lounges. So we do expect to comply with that and just be a retail dispensary and not permit consumption in any way, formal
fashion. Uh so just to wrap up before we move into questions um just want to highlight you know why I think you know this application is strong and why you know um you know we come before you today. One um initially we received a resolution from
the township back in 2022. Know that there has been you know some issues around limitation of license. Um we were part of that um early applicant who received a resolution in town in 2022. Secondly, speaking of partnerships, um we were already awarded a state
license made from the New Jersey CRC. Uh which means that we have a conditional license and the next stage will be an annual license. I mean after receiving u the approval to open the doors. Um again highlighting that um we are part of the
initial five uh initial 18 um applicants. I mean that's in town. So this is not a no application. It's not applying for a new license. mean we're already part of that cohort uh that the township has already uh has already granted. Um speaking of partnerships and the importance of partnerships, um NJA,
New Jersey Economic Development Corp. Um they issued a joint venture grant program that was open to all state operators. Um I happen to be one of the you know one of the operators who mean that won that grant and that was one out of many thousands. So as a state entity I think you know they looked at our application looked at the operations and
felt that this was very sound and awarded us that application. So I think that's a strong sign of the you know the vote of confidence in in the operations that we we expect to run. And then secondly like uh finally as a as a member of the town again you know I expect to be committed to being a good neighbor which I think we've already
started building those relationships I mean with folks I mean who operate within the same building and neighboring businesses. Uh those relationships we've started to build that and we plan to continue doing so. That's just part of the fabric of of Gary. Um, and the other that I just want to touch on, I mean, while we're here, um, I know that and
I've heard on several occasions that that there's been concerns around traffic and parking in town, specifically at the at the location. Um, I think it is safe to say that, you know, with the three businesses, I mean, that are operating at this location. We've had countless conversations with our business partners and um pretty
positive and you'll hear more from our traffic uh traffic expert later that the number of parking spots we have at the site is more than adequate right to to supply all the businesses. One, we meet the standards of the township. two um we've also looked at the business
pattern of all three and that you know the Delhi which is our main partner which has I want to say the majority of traffic at that location they are they are they operate more in the morning and lunchtime hours and that's where they see the highest volume of traffic where we whereby we see our high volume of
traffics in the afternoon and weekends so we don't expect that to conflict uh with the traffic patterns coming in and out of the building um additionally one of the things I mean that is unique to our business mean which will minimize the parking and traffic issue is that um a huge percentage of our business will
be through online orders which means that customers will not be parking on the site for any extended period of time. They'll place an order. We'll have the ability to tell them when to come pick up and likewise and once customers are on site to pick up, parking will be dimminimous, right? We can deliver products I mean to their door or to
their car. So I think that addresses I mean some of the concerns I mean we've heard around the traffic pattern and parking at that site. Uh so with that in conclusion you know I just want to you know highlight to me as an operator that you know I come here as a a community partner right someone who wants to bring value to the town. I've demonstrated
that already through my ownership in town, uh through as a resident and as an investor. Um also, you know, a a proud right former coach of the Franklin Recreational Soccer Team. So, have been that partner in town for a while and hope to continue to do so. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Does the board have any questions for Mr. Bernett? >> I I do have one. Um you mentioned you were a class five operator, >> correct? >> Can you maybe I missed it. I apologize. What what does that mean relative to class 4 or class 6? >> Class 5 are retail operators mean so per the CRC there are different classes. I
mean one for cultivation, two for manufacturing and uh extraction um another for delivery and then five for for retail. So different classifications by the CRC. >> What does CRC stand for? >> Cannabis regulatory commission which is
uh governed by the state of New Jersey. >> Thought it might be something like that. Okay. >> Any others? I just have one question uh Mr. Chairman. So you your testimony addressed uh partially um my one question which is uh you mentioned the
number of 18. So, what you were referring to was the um the ordinance that the township council passed um last year uh that minimizes uh it says the maximum number of retail
cannabis dispensaries permitted in the township shall be 18. No additional retail cannabis dispensaries shall be permitted until the number of dispensaries is less than 18. This limitation shall not affect any cannabis
dispensary that has as of the effective date of this ordinance been granted an unconditional license from the New Jersey Cannabis Regulatory Commission. Um, so you'd said you were one of those 18. Can you can you des can you elaborate on that a little bit when you
got your license and was it for a particular site and now you're moving to this site? Can you just provide the board a little bit more? >> Yeah, correct. So, we got a resolution from the township in 2022 and was awarded the license to meet from the CRC in 2024. Uh, initially um expected to open on uh 543 Somerset Street, which I
am the property owner at that location. Uh, but after, you know, looking at, you know, some of the economics, we felt that it was a better move to move to a smaller location uh here on on uh on the Mont Lane. >> Okay. So to your knowledge when when the when the council passed the ordinance to
limit total number townshipwide to 18 your location you had the license in hand at that time. >> Correct. >> And it was going to go on Somerset Street. >> Correct. >> And now you're basically transferring that license if you will >> to >> if you're granted to this site so that
the total number of dispensaries is not increasing. >> Correct. >> Okay. Uh and the license with the state is not sight specific. >> It is not. I I have to, you know, work with the state to just uh let them know that whether or not this town grants the
resolution to move move the license to the new location and they're okay with it. I've been in contact with the CRC around this already. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Okay. I guess next witness. >> Sure. Why don't you stay here in case there's any followup? Uh my next witness
will be uh Marcus Rosenau, our expert in the field of architecture. >> Do you want to sit over here? >> Sure. Thank you. >> I'm just going to exit out of this. >> Sir, if you can raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give before this board
is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Yes. Repeat your name and spell your last name for the record, please. >> Marcus Rosenau. R O S E N AU with SSP architects. >> Thank you.
>> Credentials. >> Yeah. If you if you uh would give the board the pleasure of your credentials, Mr. Rosen. >> Sure. >> Yeah. I'm licensed architect in the state of New Jersey since 1998. Um owner of SSP Architects. um and been testifying with uh boards,
planning boards, boards of adjustment, uh Somerville, Bridgewater, Hillsboro, Branchburg, Fairfield, Flemington, and I believe even in front of the Franklin Township Planning Board. So, >> all right. Thank you, Mr. Rosen. So, what can you tell us what can you tell
us about the uh architectural design and renovations plan for the proposed dispensary? >> Sure. Pretty straightforward. The as you heard Mr. Bernette testified the right now there's one entrance into the building and it based on the fact that we're now going to have two tenants in the building at least on the first on
the for the main commercial tenants. Um we're going to have it necess necessitates two entrances, one for the dispensary and one for the bike shop. So we're going to have two entrances as you can see on the exhibit here. There's that shows the one entrance up at the
top of the plan. >> Okay. >> Yep. There we go. That's the existing entrance into the bike shop with a stairwell straight down and down to the sidewalk. Um on the next plan, if you want to go to the next sheet. >> Next sheet. >> Yep. There you see the two doors that are
being created. Uh the one on the left would be into the dispensary. The one on the right would be into the bike shop. And the bike shop is ultimately now going to be repair only. He's going to be operating out of the basement. Uh so you can see we're then creating a new uh
landing and stairs down to the sidewalk and and now it's going off to the side of the of the property and then also creating some uh interior partitions inside. Um, if you then go down to the front picture and elevation,
you can see in addition to the uh new stairs and landing and doors, we are creating some new canopies to identify the two separate businesses. >> And are those uh signs consistent uh in terms of style and size as to what exists today? >> Yes.
>> And they're compliant with the township ordinance? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> I have no further questions for Mr. Rose now unless the board does. >> Anything from the board? >> I I do have one quick question. Sorry. Um >> ADA accessibility.
>> Yep. We have there's an existing ramp off to the side that we're going to be maintaining and that will provide the accessibility. >> Thank you. >> Y >> any others? >> Okay. Next. >> All right. >> Thank you.
>> Thanks. Bear with me. >> Hi. Can you raise your right hand? Thank you. Uh, do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give before this board is truth to all truth and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Can you just state your name and spell
your last name for the record, please? >> Sure. My name is Rihanna Kirchoff. K I R C H O F. And Miss Kirchoff, could you please give the board the benefit of your background and credentials? >> Absolutely. I'm a senior project engineer at Dolan and Deian Consulting Engineers. I've been in the traffic
engineering industry for approximately 10 years. Um, I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey, graduated from Stevens Institute of Technology in 2011 and my license is in good standing and I've presented in front of this board maybe a couple years ago.
>> I'm fine with that. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. Now, uh, Miss Kirchov, you prepared a report that was submitted along with the application. Is that correct? >> That's correct. >> Okay. Can you please walk us through that report and tell us about the traffic on the site and the surrounding area? >> Absolutely. So, the project involves
converting um 674 square ft of the bike shop into a cannabis dispensary while retaining approximately 150 square feet for the bike shop. And as you heard, the bike shop will retain the basement for its operations for storage and repair. Um,
most importantly, there are no changes to the building footprint, access driveways, or the overall parking supply. The site shares access um and parking with the adjacent lot, which is developed as the Raymond Salon and Spa, and the site is accessed by a full
movement driveway on Deont Lane and two driveways on Amwell Road. Um so this setup supports efficient circulation and disperses the site traffic um reducing potential conflict points. So one of the
key concerns um in the review comments was the potential traffic impacts at is what already is a very busy intersection of Deont Lane and Amwell Road. So a part of our um engagement with the applicant was to
uh provide projections on what the dispensary would create if the board looks favorably upon the application. So using the Institute of Transportation Engineers um trip generation manual. It's currently in its 11th edition. I'm sure the board has heard traffic
testimony regarding IT. Uh we use the land use code 882 which is for a marijuana dispensary. Um based on the data within the manual, the busiest peak hour occurs on Saturday. Um and for a
dispensary of this size, it's expected to generate a total of 19 trips on Saturday. Uh that's comprised of 10 entering trips and nine exiting trips. Um the weekday peak hours are even lower than that. Uh with seven peak hour trips in the morning and 13 peak hour trips in
the evening. uh the peak hour trip generation is well below um 100 trips per hour which is the threshold for requiring a formal detailed traffic study pursuant to both IT and NJ dot guidelines. In addition to the trip generation, our
office did a performed a comprehensive uh analysis of the parking supply and the demand associated with the dispensary as well as how it integrates with the existing uses and the surrounding area. So to begin, um we reviewed the township ordinance which
requires one space per 200 square ft of commercial or personal service space uh for the existing commercial area on lots 36, 37, and 38. That results in a requirement of 12 parking spaces. Um the
lot is currently striped with 19 parking spaces inclusive of an 88 um accessible space. So at this point the site already provides approximately 58% over what is required by code before we even begin factoring in operational characteristics
and parking supply turnover. Um we then start to look at dispensary specific parking demand because there's no spec uh because there's no dispensary parking requirement in the ordinance. We
relied on the IT parking generation six uh parking generation manual which is in the sixth edition and based on the data compiled with IT there is a parking demand of eight spaces for a dispensary of this size
because our office has had um experience with dispensaries in the past. We've also done our own parking observations at sites located in both Scotch Plains and uh Planefield. And what those observations revealed is that customers
are generally um parked in a parking space for approximately eight and a half minutes. So a part of our analysis uh we assumed conservatively that a parking space would be occupied for 10 minutes just to give you a round. >> Can you slow
>> Sorry. Yes. >> That's I we need to go a little bit back. >> Sure. Are you saying that someone who's a a customer for this proposed business is only going to be there for 8 and 1/2
minutes? >> Based on our observations at other dispensaries, the average is 8 and a half minutes that a customer is on site. >> Fascinating. Okay. Thanks. >> You're welcome. >> Hold on. Just regrouping. So
>> sorry for making >> no it's okay. >> So and you you used a more conservative number even though your observations indicated 8 and a half you used the number 10 to have a more conservative estimate. >> That is correct. So when you have when you're looking at a parking space and a
10-minute you know estimated we'll call it a transaction time. You're looking at a parking space turning over six times in a peak hour. Um what we did then was we translated that to the demand that it says of eight
spaces and a parking space turning over six times in an hour. We could reasonably accommodate 48 vehicle visits in a peak hour, which is nearly five times the projected peak demand of the 10 entering vehicles that was previously
up on the screen. >> Here's my other question. I didn't want to interrupt you when you're just getting started, but you you said that there was a peak hour in the morning. What hour is that? >> It's generally it's not necessarily, you
know, a specific time. It's it falls within your um during the computer time period. So when the roads have peaked between generally it's usually between any point between 7 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. So it's that >> because I know that that's when that's
when the the restaurant that's part of this property is very busy is for the morning coffee and >> and a sandwich. So that that's going to there's going to be that's going to work out. I ju I just want to clarify that
peak hour is not referring to the store's peak hour. It's referring to vehicular traffic in the area's peak hour. >> Oh, well, but it seemed like she was when she was talking about the afternoon hour, she was talking about a particular
hour because she did refer to Scotch Planes there. the scotch. Um, so the peak hour that I referred to was as it relates to the IT trip generation and what it does is it narrows down the
operation of a given land use in this case a dispensary when the roadway has reached its maximum activity. So when when the roadway reaches its you know peak activity during the morning commuter hour the site is anticipated to
generate seven trips during that time. As it relates to the observations that we conducted in terms of parking and um customer turnover that happened in Scotch Plains and that's where we observed the average 8 and a half minute
customer parking time. >> Okay. All right. I could probably ask about 40 more questions about what you were just talking about, but it's not worth it. >> Just follow Mr. >> If you can um
Mr. Roberts, um during those peak hours, our hours between us and the Delhi will be staggered. Uh the Delhi typically opens you know early in the morning 6:00 to 7:00 and the dispensary opens at 10:00. So we don't anticipate that there will be an overlap of peak hours in the AM time between the dispensary and the
Delhi. His answer is a good one. >> I like his answer. >> Okay. >> Actually, this is a a great time for us to continue on that. Um, so as you heard, we have multiple commercial tenants on the site and the peak hours
of the use are naturally staggered. So, the corner cafe and grill is busiest, as we said, during breakfast and lunch, but they close at 4:00. um the bike shop will operated um will operate on a limited footprint. So we don't anticipate a lot of parking demand
associated with their use. So in contrast with the dispensaries peak hour and a more um active being in the late afternoon and evening the caf's activity is has wound down at that time. So there's very little overlap during that
and minimal conflict at that time. One of the important things that I want to acknowledge is that the property benefits from a recorded access easement uh with the adjoining lot 35 which is developed with the salon and spa and this easement allows for the shared use
of access and parking across the two lots. So, we have not in our analysis relied on the 16 spaces that exist on lot 35 and based on our calculations, we don't anticipate needing them, but the easement does provide um like added
flexibility in the unlikely event that we would need to use that parking. >> Well, now this comes to another point, but it's it's almost >> it's almost like I I missed the asking this question before to Mr. Bernett, but
so we'll do it from a different point of view. Have did the did you have any experience looking at traffic when the for example the Scotch Plains uh property had some sort of a special event?
>> No, we did not look at um any kind of events for that type of use at that time. Do you know do you know whether or not this applicant is planning to have any special events that will draw uh crowds? >> Um no, not at the specific site. Um
because of the location and u the size of the parking lot, we do not expect to have special events and that will draw high participation. >> Okay. >> So just to be clear, if the if it was a condition of the approval that the applicant couldn't hold special events, that's something the applicant's
prepared to consent to. Good. That's great. >> So, just to wrap up, you know, we understand the board has to consider whether the use can be granted without um substantial detriment to the public good. Our analysis shows that the traffic impacts are negligible and well
below thresholds requiring any sort of off-site mitigation. uh the parking supply exceeds the zoning requirements and our demand can be accommodated within the existing parking supply and the shared commercial use of this lot along with lot 35 um already includes a
mix of uses with staggered peak uh peak activity. Uh so it's my professional opinion that the use is compatible with the existing development pattern and will not negatively impact the surrounding roadway network and I thank
you for your time. Any questions? >> I have a question. not so much relating to the traffic but u like some of the other uh testimony that's been made and I must admit I don't really know much about state laws regarding you know cannabis use and all but um so some of
the things that you said like no consumption is or will occur you know in the facility or vicinity is that's because a state law prohibits it and you're confident everyone's going to follow the law is that >> correctly that's
The state law prohibits it and we are responsible for enforcing it >> as operators. I mean any violation to that puts our license at risk. >> Okay. >> All right. Sorry it wasn't related to traffic but this just in general.
>> Any other questions for this witness? >> Yes. I have a question and this relates to this 8 and 1/2 minute um because I'm not really sure u and I'm trying to tie into your presentation earlier
where you talk about let's say I'm the customer I'm coming there for the first time and you talk about some experience showing me around and so on that 8 and 1/2 minutes seems very very quick to me cuz if you're going to give me an experience
pay you, buy you, buy some stuff hopefully for you and uh walk away from there in 8 and 1/2 minutes. It seems very very very fast to me. If I if I can, the 8 minutes is related to what we
would consider to be the average consumer. And the average consumer, believe it or not, is much more educated than we think. They know specifically what they're coming to the store for. They come in, they ask their questions, we fulfill the transaction, and they're out the door. It is an anomaly to find a customer who wants the full bore
experience to stay in the store for 10 minutes. That's an anomaly. >> Well, they for example, you can't give anybody free samples there. >> No, absolutely not. >> Right. >> So then it speed up the nature of the visit. >> Absolutely.
>> So what and what the traffic study says is that the the amount of time that they observed ranged from 3 to 22 minutes and then the average was 8.4. four. So, you know, I'm guessing the 3 minutes is somebody who goes in there obviously
knows exactly what they want and they go to the person and they say, "Give me whatever that product is and they're in and out instantly." 22 minutes, I'm guessing, is probably the the newbie going in there going, "Uh, what do I do?" And they're there for a while. And the average was 8.4 minutes.
>> That's per the traffic report that was submitted. >> Any other questions? >> Okay, let's move on. >> Thank you. Our our final witness this evening will be once again Mr. Kevin O'Brien, our professional planner.
>> We'll take a shortcut here unless anything's changed in the last 25 or 30 minutes in his qualifications. We accept them. So you can I'll just swear them in real quick. Uh Mr. O'Brien. Uh, do you swear or affirm the testimony you're
about to give before this board is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Thank you. >> Name and qualifications unchanged. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> So, Mr. O'Brien, what can you tell us about the proposed use at 1695 Deont
Lane? You've heard extensive testimony this evening as to Can you put side the um aerial view up here? >> Absolutely. >> As to the business
uh which is to allow a retail cannabis dispensary in a pre-existing non-conforming neighborhood retail center. This center has been in existence for over a hundred years. The site currently has the deli. It's got the bike shop, two apartments. Next door
is the salon and spa. Everything is going to remain, but the bike shop is going to be made smaller to allow the 674 foot 674 square ft. I think you could probably
put three of them in this room. It's not a big place. We're here because we need a use fairance because this use is not allowed in the R20 residential zone, but we are
proposing it in a neighborhood shopping center, that neighborhood location which consists of a number of retail shops. So, what do we have to prove to you this evening? We've got to show you that there is particular suitability
due to the unique aspects of the site. We've got to show you that there are special reasons. And lastly, the positive and negative criteria. Excuse me. I also want to emphasize we're only requesting the DU variance.
There are no signs and there's no bulk variances. Everything is remaining exactly as it is. No physical changes are proposed to the site except for some interior work and the addition of one doorway. These changes are going to be imperceptible to
any passerby. Franklin allows 18 dispensaries in the township by ordinance. Governing body of this township has said 18 are appropriate for the size and the population of this town.
This is one of those dispensaries that's been granted an approval by the township governing body. As you've heard, the applicant has a license already and his original intention was to open a dispensary on
Somerset Street. There are a number of other dispensaries along Somerset Street. And it was made clear to this applicant in his discussions with the township and the community that why another one there?
Did it make a business sense? Did it make planning sense because there's so many there already? How many can the market bear? And instead the township has made it clear to the applicant that we'd like to see them spread throughout the township. take these 18 and move
around. Just like you've got a convenience store in many locations, they're not all on Somerset Street. This allowed use, legal use by the state of
New Jersey, allowed by every resident of the state. The township says if people want to do it, God bless them, but let's spread it around the town so that people don't have to travel all over the place and there are businesses throughout the
township, which benefits everybody. This will be opening a dispensary in the in the third ward where there are no dispensaries today, none whatsoever. So, this will be a first for that ward. The dispensary will have no impact on
the area. You've heard testimony that there'll be no odor. There'll be no traffic impact. The product is in sealed bags. Nothing is consumed on site. If it is, the applicant is going to lose his license and he'll be out of business.
It's in the applicant's best interest. >> Only if he gets caught. >> The odor would indicate. >> Perfectly true, Mr. Shepard. And does the odor come from somebody in the back of the salon
or somebody in this guy's parking lot? And if it comes from this guy's parking lot, it's in his best interest to make sure it's out and out of there before somebody calls the cops because if it's reported to the police, it goes on his record and he can lose
his license. He doesn't want that. Why would you open a Why would you open a business? go to all the expense of having all these people here tonight getting an economic development authority grant from the state of New
Jersey of which only 50 550 were allowed throughout this entire state of 9 million 9 million people 9,000 square miles. It doesn't make any sense. The site has and will continue to have
adequate shared parking. You've heard testimony no significant impact on traffic. I believe the site is particularly suited for the use and is complimentary to the other uses on site and adjacent to it.
The master plan has some goals which I believe guide us. Talks about differentiating between neighborhood commercial nodes and regional commercial development. And it talks about concentrating development into nodes or districts where residential densities
can support commercial activities. As the first and only dispensary in the third ward, there is substantial residential activity away from this but in the area that will support this activity.
The master plan also talks about limiting commercial activities to neighborhood commercial uses and those which serve the adjacent residential comm community and I believe this supports those goals.
We have to show you that there are special reasons rooted in the basis of the municipal land use law which would allow you to grant this application. Excuse me. And I believe that this application is
guided by goals A encourage municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health, safety, morals and general welfare. This is a use allowed by the ma by the governor and state legislature of
the people of New Jersey. C. Provide adequate light, air, and open space. We're not changing this site in any way. It's a nice little neighborhood shopping area. No change is going to be made. It's going to stay exactly as it is. I
promote a desirable visual environment. Again, no change to this charming little enclave. M. Encourage coordination of the various public and private procedures and to the more efficient use of the land. This certainly advances that goal. And I
believe that this application advances all those goals of the municipal land use law in an existing 100-year-old neighborhood commercial center that retains the existing look and feel of the building. Will this variance
have any negative impact? In short, no. Nobody can do anything on this site which is against the public interest. Customers who are allowed by law come into this site, you've heard uh Mr.
Healey quote, ranging from 4 minutes to 22 minutes, average 8 and a half. The applicant is going to adaptively reuse this existing neighborhood shop in an area that's particularly suited for
it. I don't see a negative impact to the community or the township as a whole as a result of this. There's some minor physical changes imperceptible to a passer by, but there are a number of positive impacts. This is an adaptive
reuse of an existing building that as the bicycle shop is contracted would otherwise be vacant. And does that call into question the viability of the building
if half of that retail space is vacant? A new dispensary in the third ward is going to be opened. A new business in town opened by a local business person. A number of employees and additional commercial activity in a
local neighborhood shop. I think all those are positives in this application. As we discussed earlier, the board is familiar with the criteria for reviewing a use variance for a non-conforming use.
The three prongs of special reasons, reconciliation, reconciliation with the master plan and zoning ordinance, and that the application have no negative impact upon the neighborhood and surrounding properties. I believe this application meets those tests.
We've demonstrated that there are special reasons supported by the municipal land use law. It can be reconciled with the master plan and the zoning ordinance. And lastly, the application has met the negative criterion shown that there are no detriments. >> Well, wait a minute. Now, let's let's
let's raise something that that is a concern to me here. Certainly, >> if you would if you walk down the street just a short distance from where that building is, there's a driveway that leads you on foot leads you right to the Samson G. Smith School. >> Yes.
>> So, it would seem to me that the Samson uh Gmith school students uh would be uh able to um go to this particular location. I'm not saying that they're going to go in and be able to pretend
that they're old enough to buy stuff there, but I'm just concerned about them being um exposed to this so close to their uh their school. Have you given that any thought? >> Absolutely. We're going to pull up the
proposed signage on the front of the building. And what the signage shows, it says dispensary. There we go. It says bicycles on the left and dispensary on the right.
>> So, anybody walking by this or driving by it along road and if they're looking at this, they should be looking at the road. Vanwell is not a place to lolly gaggle. It says dispensary. Says nothing
about marijuana. Says nothing about cannabis. >> Oh, come on. They know exactly what's going on in there. >> Okay. Just taking it one step too far. >> I'd like to direct this question to to Mr. Bernett. >> If I can, Mr. Roberts. We take we did take that into consideration. And as you
can tell, just based on the location of the dispensary, there are no sidewalks on our side of the building. There's only one sidewalk on the opposing side of the building. >> So, let me ask a follow-up question. Um, what's the closest dispensary? I know you said that this is the first one in
the third ward. What's the closest dispensary that exists today either in terms of distance or in terms of travel time? >> Do we know that? >> And if I may add to that question,
>> well, can we I'm sorry. Unless you want to. >> No, because it I think it will help answer. >> Excellent. >> A little more things also. >> Which other locations apart from this did you scout
that you preferred just this location and not anything else? >> Um I I think this was a favorable location as we looked throughout the town. as um has been said earlier the other areas of town I mean were very concentrated so we did not you know extend any efforts I
mean to looking in a section of town it was already concentrated so >> and I think to go back to Mr. Shepard's question about people trying to come in to the dispensary and attempting to purchase maybe Mr.
Bernett can tell us a little bit more about the security that is there at the location. >> So but but question >> yeah it didn't answer Shuendu's question um as to how far is it from the nearest
other dispensary. Um the next dispensary it's it's at least 2 milesi away we have Unity which is over at the shop right and then um at the far side of Amwell um it's Somerset um the dispensary of Somerset those are the two closest dispensaries to our
location >> KFC >> correct >> AML Avenue all the way down to New Brunswick corner >> distance >> two and a half else. >> Yeah. Neither within walking distance. >> Okay.
>> So, is it time for questions? Was he done with his testimony or >> I would conclude that the application can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without substantial impairment of the zone plan
and the zoning ordinance. I welcome your question. Okay. Um, actually again I have to apologize for my ignorance about all these dispensaries, but did you say that there were 50 allowed in New Jersey and 18 of them are in Franklin?
>> There there are 18 allowed dispensaries in Franklin Township >> out of 50 in the whole state. The New Jersey Economic Development Authority, a statewide agency, granted 5050 applications for cannabis dispensaries
throughout the state. There are hundreds of cannabis dispensaries throughout the state of New Jersey, but the Economic Development Authority allowed 50 of them, allowed 50 dispensaries to apply for a grant to help put them into
business. Okay. >> So, it's a partnership program with NJA whereby they looked at all of these applicants who they thought would be viable contenders within the state and we were awarded one of those grants from NJA.
>> Okay. Thanks. Yes. Okay. >> You're completed. Thank you, chairman. Any other questions from the board? Yeah, I I would have liked to see a little bit more scoping in some other
areas than very near to a school. Um um there's an argument of course to be made. The building is fine and all of that is fine but the school is also there. So I would have at least hope as a board member and as a parent that you
may have come prepared to say look I looked at this streets or so on and so forth. um for us, at least for me, I speak on on my behalf that I can possibly make a decision that there is
no other place in Franklin where this can be situated which is compliant and is not near a school. >> Now, Mr. Reette, could you reiterate your testimony about the other site that you did scope and what drove you to this
location? Um so again once more right taking into consideration the saturation of the se dispensaries within the town um we certainly had um another location on Somerset Street um which was suitable but we looked at again where it would
make sense for the town to not be in another concentrated area which again could cause for a decline in the business um and felt that you know within this zone of town uh where there were no dispensaries and also within what we would call very appropriate distance mean from the school, right? We
felt that this was a better location. Um earlier I mentioned that the next dispensary that's closest to us is the dispensary of Somerset, which is literally within walking distance of the middle school with sidewalks on both side of the street. We are not within those proximities. So, we did take that
in consideration knowing that the average student who comes out of that middle school is being driven and not walking home. Whereas that's the scenario we see on the other side of town. And I I just want to ask you again, Mr. Bernette, how many times before a patron
can actually make a purchase, do you check their identification? >> Um, IDs are typically checked twice before a purchase is made. Once to enter the building and second verification of one purchase. So, it's very highly unlikely that we'll have someone coming
in without the proper identification. And what would occur if you did make a illegal sale to somebody who did not have proper identification? I >> think it speaks to the loss of our license, right? It's as clear as that we're not taking those chances. >> I think that that this uh subject with
the schools, you know, that's a legitimate concern, but I think we're uh missing the point to a certain extent. The kids in the school at least are supervised. Most of them are not on foot. the vast majority are traveling on
buses or in cars. I'd be more concerned about who who is at the library, which is a lot lot closer, a lot more accessible uh to this site. Um,
I I don't know what uh safeguards that you can do other than not letting people into the dispensary, but I don't know if that's uh
I I don't know if the school was a reason to have the highest amount of concern. I I I would submit to the board that the this business will have to take far greater precautions and and has
testified to them and put in place than let's say a bar and restaurant for example stage house tavern that is just down the road has to take where you know a patron can come in they show their ID one time and maybe a different waiter or bartender might serve that person later on after that one identification. This
is an enterprise where upon entry a single person their only job is to check IDs and only let people in who are supposed to be there and then upon sale the actual cashiers who complete the transaction. Again on every transaction
have to check IDs. It it it's it's a practicality of this type of business and anywhere you go regardless of location it's something you have to be concerned about. Well, we have a legitimate reason to be concerned, but we have no enforcement
and and issues as a board. And I don't know how much of a consideration that that can be in approving or not approving it. >> May I ask a question, chair? >> I guess this is probably more for for
Mark. Um when when the governing body was considering introducing cannabis as a permitted use, did they consider proximity to school district to schools or >> Yeah. When the ordinance was originally
passed, they basically um permitted cannabis retail in all of the zones where retail uses are permitted. So the Hamilton Street business zone, general business zone, neighborhood business zones along Route
27 Revenue Avenue from a land use perspective, they were treated just like they were permitted where other retail uses were permitted as long as they were licensed by the state as a cannabis retailer and then subsequently the council passed that ordinance to
limit it to 18. >> Yeah. So I guess more directly my question based on that thank thank you though um is those other districts they're relatively close to schools or possibly libraries or
>> Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. So yeah, sorry to answer your your question fully and and and I guess when I answered that question, you know, I thought I was answering it, but I'm not because you know when if you're permitting it as any other retailer, what that means is there are no restrictions as far as there were
no restrictions placed as far as distances from schools, churches, things like that. None of those type restrictions were placed in the ordinance for cannabis retail. And are are you aware of any issues with underage drinking or cannabis consumption?
>> I'm not personally, but I don't think I'd be a def definitive source on that because those type complaints or issues wouldn't be communicated to me. >> Okay. I'm just curious. Thank you. >> And I just want I just want to emphasize that the township did have the opportunity to place such a restriction
and and chose not to that when when they adopted that ordinance. >> Well, that was kind of my mindset, but I wasn't going to say that for you. >> Thank you. So you could literally have a cannabis placed right next to a rehab place and like >> Yes, there were no when when the council adopted that allowed cannabis retail,
they they placed no such restrictions. >> You asked if there was any of those dispensaries close relatively close to a school. Uh you've got one in the Shopright center on Elizabeth Avenue and the one
across the street from that which is down the street from the high school where you have a student population that's much more mobile because they can drive. It's also relatively the same district for an elementary school in
South Bound. So, I don't know. I don't know how much, you know, we can put on on that when there's no when the council was not helping that way. >> No, thank you. I just I was more curious than anything.
>> Any other questions? >> Yeah, sorry, one last final question. And I'm still with the congestion part of it. On Somerset Street that you mentioned that there are already a couple of them. How far are they from each other on the
SER set? If you know that and the point I'm trying to make from that is 2 mi is not a big difference or a distance from where you plan to put uh your dispensary here. Um
and if anyone's coming by car, 2 miles is fundamentally 2 minutes or maybe four. So I'm not sure the congestion argument really sits well with me. Uh because 2 4 minutes doesn't make any difference. If I can't come to you, I'll go 2 minutes
ahead and go to some other dispensary. So my my question is again any other locations that you have looked at where is possibly compliant and you don't need to having to go through this.
Um, no, we did not look at um Hamilton Street and I cannot give you the specifics on the distance between the two, but it is very safe to say that they're within accessible walking sidewalk distance to each other and not drivable, which is where our location
situated. We're not within walking distance of another dispensary. >> Thank you, sir. >> Any others? Okay, if you're finished, we'll open to the public. >> Yes, that concludes our presentation. Thank you. >> Okay, we are open to the public. It's
your opportunity to ask questions and to make a statement. This will be your one opportunity to speak. Come to the podium, give us your name, address, and be sworn in. >> Hello. Can you hear me?
>> Hear me? Okay. >> Yes. Okay. I'm Greg Star. Live on Five Derby Road. >> Make sure you're speaking into the >> Yeah. Greg Star, five Darby Road. Been here at residence since 1981. And you know, legal isn't really the
same as good. And I think that you have to realize that cannabis does impair judgment and can cause psychosis and suicide. Now, people might be skeptical. I say do your own research. You'll see it's very true. States that have
legalized cannabis saw an average increase of 18% auto crashes and a 10% increase in fatalities. Cannabis users are 22% more likely to need emergency care and hospitalization. Cannabis is a dangerous drug. Might be
legal, but very dangerous, especially for younger adults. And do you want to be any part of this? It's a moral question. Okay. Uh, finally, cannabis shop does not fit with the historic nature of Middlebush. Middlebush is
historic town. Cannabis shop should be like in an urban, you know, shopping center or something if there's going to have them at all. And it doesn't fit with Middlebush many historic town and mainly residential. And in my view, my opinion, it does decrease property
values. I know if I was buying a home, a new home or moving and close to the new home, I saw a cannabis shop, you know, I I probably would say, "Nah, it's not for me." And I think that the excellent point is the cannabis shops are just a
couple minutes away. You can also order cannabis online. So, there's some urgent need to have this shop here is I just don't think it's there. And I think there's a moral question that this is legal, but it's a very dangerous drug.
If anyone does the research on this, you'll see all kinds of horrible stories of what have happened to people with this. So I just ask you to consider that factor as well. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Anybody else
come? Um, my name is William Moore. I live um just across the street at 4 South Crosser Place. Um, in my going around the township, I've noticed that a lot of these types of dispensaries are located
>> in more commercial uh places like strip malls. Um, as I mentioned, I live right across the street. So, this is essentially a residential area. Um to chairman uh Thomas's uh point um
irrespect of the school which is right down the street there's also community events that go on right around here. We have the gazebo over here where summertime there's people coming in not only from Franklin Township but also from other communities to enjoy the festivities there. We have people coming
to the library and also backing up right up to this proposed cannabis store is a United States post office, a federal post office. So, in my mind, that's not a very good look. And I just think the overall with the traffic
and everything that goes along with the proposed site here, I think it's just a bad location for this community. Thank you. >> I thank you. You gonna speak >> Karen Moody for Denarter Drive.
Um, actually, >> make sure you get close to the mic. >> I'm a little appalled at the fact that we have 18 dispensaries that we can have in our township. We already have nine. None of them are really by schools. This is the closest. I'd like to know how many feet we are from that school. Does
anyone know how many feet? What was the question? >> Well, it's close to a school. It's close to a temple. It's close to a church. It's in a little shopping center, which is really not a shopping center. It used to be a gas station. It used to be
called Illos a long time ago. And there's hardly any parking. The traffic is bad. Those are two bad lights. We've had so many accidents in both those areas over the last since the lights were put in. actually and uh I
there's no traffic study. I don't know about the Scotch Plains location. I have no idea where that is. Your traffic expert, I guess, left. Uh so, >> oh, so I'm asking you, did you do a traffic
study as far as people turning in to Deont Lane from Emil or going in from Hamilton to the the shopping center? No, we did not. >> So, you really didn't do a traffic. >> So, let's let's if there's going to be
questions of people, then they need to come back up. >> She needs to answer that on the record. >> Uh traffic counts were not conducted at the site. No. So then how do you know whether it's going to be good or bad as
far as the hours that the people are going in and out of that small area because we projected traffic based on national standards. So there's there's national standards that are published utilized by the state in terms of what a
dispensary would do and we use those rates to apply it to this size building. >> Okay. So, I live in the area. I'm right across the street and the traffic is horrific. Every morning, every afternoon, every night between the
school buses, the two lights, the turning into that area, it's backed up all the time. It's very difficult to get out of that one little shopping center. That's really not a shopping center. It's just a few stores. It's not a strip mall. Is your Scotch Plains location in
a strip mall? >> I would have to check my notes. I don't have it on me. >> Is it Is it by a school? >> No, it is not. >> Are any of the other locations that you check by schools? >> I happen to be familiar with the the
Scotch Plains location. I I grew up in Scotch Plains and I know where that location is. It actually is less than one mile from the high school with driving students. >> How many feet? >> It's less than a mile. >> So, I don't know how many feet are in a mile. I don't know.
5 5,280 >> 5,000. But isn't what what is the state does the state have a mandate on how far away this can be from? >> No, it does not. >> Okay. >> Okay. So maybe can the zoning board suggest to the council that they put
more restrictions on these dispensaries? No, >> I mean I I really it's actually a quality of life >> as far as I'm concerned problem with us in the area. It's just a rural area. It was a little town. Middlebush was a little town. I know a little very small
village which has grown over the last 200 years. But to put something like that, like I said, children do walk. They aren't all bus ridden children. I see them walking all the time. They walk across the street. They, you know, there there's walkers. They go to the library.
They go to the post office. They they uh So, it's not like kids aren't going by. They are. And I don't know if any of you even drive into where the little deli is, but it's packed. The salon is packed. The parking lot is packed always. I mean, except for maybe a few
hours, but most of the time it's hard to get a parking spot and it's very hard to pull out. So, I just would like everyone to consider that because I think these are major issues for the area. Thank you. >> I I just want to ask some some follow-up questions of of my two witnesses in
response to the public comment. So, uh Miss Kirchoff, uh the traffic report that you prepared, is that in accordance with federal standards? >> Yes, it is. >> And is it in accordance with state standards? >> Yes, it is. And can you remind me uh what is the threshold requirement for a
formal traffic study on site to be conducted? >> Uh the site would have to generate 100 or more trips within a peak hour. >> And what is the projection based on those federal and state standards for the highest number of trips generated to
this site based on the proposed use? >> Um 19 peak hour trips. >> Thank you. And I also have a question for you, Mr. Bernett. Now, you've worked closely with with the the property owner of this site to bring this application to bear. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Now, um you you I assume, and please correct me if I'm wrong, did you talk
about traffic patterns and parking on site with the property owner? >> We absolutely did. >> Did you ask him uh or or her, I'm sorry, I'm not sure. Uh whether there's ever been any parking issues or traffic issues surrounding by the site, whether there's ever been any complaints logged about the site.
>> Not to the knowledge of the tenants or the landlord. >> Thank you. Okay, next speaker. >> Yes, my name is uh Anthony Walker. I live at 15 Derby Road. I've been a resident of um Somerset since 1982.
Uh neighbor of Mr. Star. Uh my my my complaints are twof are multiple folds. One, I'm concerned about the school. I'm concerned about the library. And I'm cons concerned about the uh like they
were saying the uh the park where they have all of the affairs for uh activities going on. But most importantly, I use a walker a lot and I walk up and down Amwell Road and I cross the street
uh and go into the deli. And one comment that was made was you're going to have a ramp that will now take me into the dispensary, but I use that same ramp to go into the um the deli. So, is that
going to change? My my other question is or concern is at the back of the deli there's a little sitting area where people could go eat their lunch or whatever. So, if I if I go to the dispensary and buy something, can I just
go sit in the park and and use it? >> Uh, but what's going to prevent me from doing it? So, I mean, it's it's it's more than just uh you know, uh well, you go to the store and get something, but
when I use this walker and and I come up up and down uh um um on uh Amwell Road, there are certain times of the day I don't even try to go. I do it like they were talking about off
peak hours. And even during off peak hours like 10 between 10 and 12 or between 10 and 2 that traffic is crazy. Uh and using a walker I got to be very careful about crossing the street. So if
you got people in a dispensary shooting in oh I say she zipping in and out that's a concern to everybody. So, it's not just um you know people who can drive. What about people who can't drive? And then one other question I
have or concern I have is up the street there's also the uh stage coach in now. What happens if people go just just hypothetically go to the um dispensary and then go back up on the weekends at
at stage coach. they can do whatever they want in that area that and it's not on their property. So, uh it's like I said, it's it's more about the community than just uh a local place like that.
And I remember when they converted when they made when they converted the deli to a bike shop and put the apartments up there, that was back maybe 20, 30 years ago. So, it it it's changed a lot. Um, and I also remember back in
the day when kids I live on Derby Road, kids used to have to walk to Samson until a kid got hit by a bus and that's when they started um making all kids in this area take a bus.
So, that's all I have to say. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Hi, my name is Helen Garcia. I live on 31 Academy Road. A quick question. Uh, I apologize. I didn't catch your name. What will be the hours of operation of
the dispensary? >> Starting at 10:00 in the morning, closing at 9 at night, >> and it'll be seven days a week. >> Um, the hours will be modified on Sundays. We'll have shorter hours on Sundays. >> Okay. because I'm concerned that the traffic will conflict with the schools
and with the houses of worship. There's three um different houses of worship in the area and they do host events. So, I'm concerned that the traffic could become an issue. Um in the initial presentation, it was mentioned that you can build in security measures. Are they
a standard security measures in the building? Um like you said, you were going to put in a vault and other stuff. And is the architect licensed in those? I I'm just trying to make sure that it's going to be it's going to be housed in like three different properties. Will they be that secure?
>> Yes. So, access control will be built in on all entrance doors, both front and back. We'll also have access control doors, I mean into the vault. So, you'll have to go through multiple access control doors in order to get into the building and to um get access to the products.
>> Okay. Um, and lastly, there are three dispensaries dispensaries already on Eastern Avenue. Is there going to be like a dispensary war? Because now we're going to have all these dispensaries and uh is there going to be a conflict? I know you can't answer that right now,
but we already do have them. So, what you know, I know they issued the licenses, but it's just a concern. >> I'll do my best to be a responsible business owner. >> Anyone else? Uh, good evening. Uh, Willie Jones,
Three Stewart Way. Uh, I'm a longtime resident of Franklin and uh, you know, this this community meeting is great. Uh, getting the varances as we talked there are a lot of dispensaries in in Franklin and it's surprising to have so many dispensaries in the town, right?
How we got to that point is kind of relevant, but we do have, you know, as we stated 18 licenses that are issued. Uh and all fairness to to this new dispensary that's coming to the township, all these other dispensaries uh have been issued and approved, right?
You have some that are near schools, um some that are near churches. So, they have gone through the same process and going through the same process and got approved and I don't see any any issues of revoking any of those license because there's creating issues in the township. So I think in all fairness to to this
new dispensary coming in that you know the same rules should apply across the board that apply to all the dispensary that has been open in the township. Okay. He's near school not too far from school. Uh the Franklin Middle School is right near dispensary. You have churches that are there as well. You have
sidewalk that kids can walk to dispensary. That was the case. Someone had brought that in earlier. So again, in all fairness to to new business owners, uh be mindful that other dispens have been approved with similar conditions or worse conditions relative to children's schools and things like
that. So be fair, it's been approved for dispensaries uh apply the same process to all new business owners coming to the township. >> Thank you. >> Hi. Uh good evening. Sorry, Steve Boxer, five south coast of Place. Uh, first I I
just want to say I'm very disappointed that nobody who gave a presentation discussed the schools that whatsoever. And it wasn't until a member of the board said, "What about the schools?" Not one of you said anything. Uh, this gentleman mentioned that um the sign
would only say dispensary. Okay, I'm sorry. That just doesn't cut it. Um, the other item that was pointed out by that gentleman was the traffic. Um, and it is on Amwell Road and he just mentioned the side entrance, you know, never once mentioning that the cars were
coming up Amwell Road and we've had serious accidents on Amwell. You know, I don't know if it was a a death or a serious injury and it never made the papers. So, stuff has gone on on Amwell Road that, you know, people were covering up. Sorry. But I I think more
information should have been done to talk about the schools. >> Sorry. Thank you. >> Thank you. uh Benjamin got 35 patent drive. So I just want to point out two things. One is um and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong from a board standpoint. You guys already know that how many applications
have actually been came through and actually went through this process of trying to get applications through the uh through the township. Can you state that portion because it's not just 18. I just want to make sure it's clear. >> It's not just 18. >> No, >> I'm not sure exactly.
>> It's about 41. So, just to correct the correct the conversation, I'll go I'll go through this conversation real quick so we can move on for the day. So, originally, and I'll give the scope of this conversation because we're addressing on an application that doesn't really need to be be a part of this process. Most of these business
owners have spent hundreds of thousand dollars to try to get to the point of opening, right? And again, in this town, we screwed that up because the simple fact of we let the applications and we took the application fees for a lot of these people to try to open, right? during this period of time frame, right?
For three and a half, four years period of time frame. So again, when we're addressing this, we're not putting the scope of what is actually here at this specific time frame. The gentleman that actually is playing, he's went through as a business owner. Again, the scope of the design of this is all falls back on
the planning, township, and everybody else that goes along with this. We had we everybody can look this this information up. We had a scope of it. The Franklin reporter can give you the report himself. When we had this conversation, we we were the one town in the state of New Jersey that had over 49 applications that are here. We approved
22 of them and we and three of them already went out of business during the time frame, right? So again, it's already stated this is just like when you do applications for when it when back in the day when you're doing liquor license, everybody else there had to be regulations because you got to let the market catch up. Again, the business owner is applying for an application.
Everybody can do everybody can complain about this during the time frame, but I'm telling you based on it and I don't hear any I didn't hear nobody come to these meetings about the fourth ward or anybody else on Hamilton Street. You walk down Hamilton Street now, it's about seven to eight different dispensaries on in that in that specific
jurisdiction. I don't hear nobody complaining about that. And again, for zoning wise, if you want to talk about school zones, there's Hillcrest, there's the middle school, there's uh you know, Senator Pine Grove within within certain districts. I don't see anybody bringing bringing up hell to the township council about that portion right now. I have not
heard nobody complain about nothing. And again, you're redirecting your energy to the wrong person. This is a business owner. We already have a problem in this town about economics. We need to let the business people be the business people here, right? We they pay their taxes and they employ people. If you don't want
the kids to be violent or do anything else and they're there, you sort of have to we have to work on employment here. We have to work on workforce. We have to work on places where these people can work because the more money they make legally, the less they call cause other problems. Now, the conversation about a
business person being due diligent, Mr. uh Mr. Brunett, he already stated that he's trying to be a vigorous business owner and he's already talked about his uh different things that he's doing, mentoring and everything else that he does outreach for. I don't I never heard anybody question another dispensary about this during the time frame. Never.
So me personally, this is a different conversation that's going on right now. And me personally, I feel some type of way. That's why I'm here to speak about this because again, I have never heard nobody else question the other dispensary owners like this over the last last couple years. Never.
>> To my knowledge, sir. Sorry to interrupt you. This is the first hearing there's >> I'd never heard >> been for a dispensary in Franklin because they're they're permitted by right if there's no variance. So, so you're telling me that there's no hearings when you guys when you guys got
the application. Just want to make sure the public I want to make sure the public's hearing this >> personally. You're telling me that you during the process when you approve 18 applications, you didn't question none of the other applications. >> No, we haven't had other applications. >> Guys, let me explain.
>> This is the first application for a dispensary >> that's in a in a zone that doesn't permit it. That's why Let me finish Let me finish. >> What is that classified to be? Let let me finish answering >> and I just want to make sure it's clearly stated out loud what's going on. >> Well, let me let me let me finish.
>> This is the first time this board has heard an application for a dispensary. All of the others were in zones where they were permitted. Since they were in zones where they were permitted, they did not have to go before this board. >> Okay. So you so you're saying you're
saying publishing when you publish the portions for people to permit you publish the zones where they can permit where they can actually do that and you're telling me that from the economic development director and yourself you publish this publicly to the state department about this. >> That's what I'm asking a question.
I'm not sure what state department the the council adopted an ordinance if I could finish. Please let me finish. the council adopted an ordinance to change the zoning ordinance to allow
cannabis in retail zones. So, the the council went through the process of changing that ordinance and all of those were done and and filed by as required by law and and again, the council decided to permit cannabis retail in
retail zones. I I think I hope that answers your question. So, you're saying I'm trying to answer your question. I just make sure we're clear. I just want to get on the record. You're saying between the assembly person that advocated for this, the town council and everybody else, they were all knowledgeable what was
going on with with the permitting because based on the town council and also the ward people that have been questioned about this multiple times in the town council meetings, they've been saying that they made a mistake and I'm just making sure we're clear about what they what was publicly been stated on record and everybody can look up this up
on the town council meetings. Again, Mr. right? And everybody else have have said stated that they made mistakes about this whole law because they didn't expect it to be this way. Now again, we have to retroactively look at what the economic impact is on on our town. Again, if business owners want to open
where they want to open at, then we they just long as they comply and they do the ordinance, then we should move forward. But us asking questions about certain things about school zones and everything else, that had nothing to do with you guys. And that was permitted because what the town council already allowed it to be during the time frame. If you're
saying it, if we if you're saying and I'll finish up with this statement after this. If you're saying that they were supposed to be in retail locations, right, that means we knew that they were going to be by school zones and we let it happen anyway. So, it should be off the table. So, I'll finish my comments and go off of there. Thank you.
>> Good evening. >> Good evening. Uh my name is Jacob Hner. I own the Corner Deli. Um, I also live in the apartment above the location where the dispensary is going to be put in and I don't think there will be any issues with parking. Um, or with traffic
for that matter. Um, and from my business perspective, um, I think the extra traffic would be good. Um, better visibility for my business and, uh, yeah, I don't see any issues with them coming in. Thank you.
>> Anybody else? Um, good evening. My name is Valerie Northy. I live at 127 Sunnyvale Court and I've been a resident of Franklin Township since 1987. Um, I've also been very actively involved in the community including working for the Franklin Township Public
Schools for many years and I'm currently the co-chair for the um, education committee for the stigmafree council we have here in Franklin. And I heard a lot of questions today and I heard a lot of information and oh also by the way um I am a licensed clinical social worker and
a licensed certified drug and alcohol counselor and I've known um Mr. Barrett through his work and my work together in the community and a lot of what has said about as far as school districts go and school the concern of where the school's located as people have commented in the
past um and I've worked in both Samson Smith school and Franklin school, Franklin Middle School and the high school. So, I can tell you that the students walk across the street closer to where that dispensary is on Franklin Boulevard and Hamilton Street than they
would be. And and nonetheless, just because a dispensary is somewhere, how is it any different than a liquor store or any other thing like that? And not only that, given the fact that the dispensaries have to be so cautious about the identification, I don't see it
being a concern as much as people are making it. Yes, it's near a school. What a lot of things look at as someone mentioned stage house. You can go in your you a child can go in with their family and before you know it, maybe that child was given a drink or
something happened. Um are you holding them liable? And as far as why we're here tonight, it's my understanding we're here tonight because we wanted to see if we could have the um dispensary in an an area that is not considered to be uh uh is considered residential. But
what about the businesses that have been operating there? I've lived here since 1987 and that building has always been used for some kind of commercial business. So, thank you. >> Thank you. Anyone else?
Yeah, my name is uh Tom Armstrong. I live at 127 Sunnyville Court. Um I've known Mr. uh Bernett through the industry but also through his uh men mentoring men program. Um just wanted to address a few things. Um someone mentioned that this gentleman I think
that it should be in an urban area or something and I think that's um a little unfair. I happen to actually be a graduate student at Ruckers University and a concentration of a masterers of business and science in global agriculture. Someone mentioned about the agriculture history of the area. U might
I remind you this is an agriculture crop and agriculture commodity. Our founding fathers use this. Um so I think that's a little disingenuous to to say that it has to just be an urban area. I think there's people of all walks of life. No matter they're listen to country music, rock music. I don't think that cannabis
differentiates. It's not agnostic. You know, it's agnostic. You know, people from all walks of life can use this and, you know, some people might find benefit from it. Um, and I, you know, I I um in terms of in terms of the proximity of the school, I think it's unfair to
adjudicate that here because, you know, this gentleman when he's looking at a site, he didn't take that into consideration because it wasn't involved in the ordinance nor at the state level. The state decided no sensitive use restrictions. The town decided no sensitive use restrictions. Therefore, why should this gentleman be held to any
different standards than anyone else as it relates to sensitive use restrictions to schools? There's no restriction in the township ordinance. No restriction at the state level. And uh that's all I have to say. >> Thank you. Anyone else?
Last call. Okay, we'll close to the public. Anything you'd like to sum up? >> Actually, real quick, Mr. Chairman, can I just ask the I'm not sure if this is a qu This is a followup to the question that the gentleman brought up before. I'm not sure if this is for Mr. Bernett
andor the architect, but um you'd mentioned when people come in there's two points of of ID. You go in um correct and my understanding is usually it's kind of an enclosed vestibule and then you have to card. You can't even get into the sales area until you show a
card, then a door, then you do the transaction and they card you again, right? Is that is that your understanding of how it how it would work? >> Due to the size of this location, we will not have a vestibule, but there will be an ID check before you enter the building. >> Then there will be another ID check at
the point of sale. >> Okay. And you have because you have your front entrance that has the stairs and you have the back entrance via the handicap ramp and and the um uh the hallway in between this space and the deli. You're going to have two points of
entry. >> One point of entry through the main entrance at Amwell and exit through the vestibial. >> What what happens if somebody's handicapped? >> Um we'll make an exception for that for someone entering through the back door. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Actually, I
have one more question for the owner. Um, I thought you talked about enforcing on premise consumption. How do you prevent someone who's picked a sandwich or gone to the salon and
um picked up some stuff from the dispensary and stayed back to eat his sandwich in the back and at the same time consuming the product that he or she brought from you as an owner.
It is our responsibility if we notice consumption on site to address it with the consumer that we are not police officers. I mean so we cannot ask them to leave the premise. We can make a call to 911 to have that person removed but we're not responsible for enforcement at that level.
>> Okay. >> Anybody else? >> Okay. We'll try again. >> All right. Uh I'll keep my summations brief. I think these issues have been uh fully exhausted through these discussions, but I just want to remind the board the only relief we're seeking tonight is the D1 use variance and that
is to the proposed use of a cannabis class 5 retail cannabis dispensary in a retail space. So the township council and the state of New Jersey did act to permit this use within the state. The
township council acted to permit this use within retail spaces. Th this re this particular retail space happens to be outside outside of a retail zone but the site is particularly suitable because for 100 years at least it has
been used for retail. The proposed use here is not going to substantially change the traffic patterns, the parking on site or the use of the other v uh the other tenants on site, the deli, uh the nail salon that's next door, the
residences up upstairs or the bike shop. And not only that, but the presence of this use on site is actually going to elevate and lift the burden of some of those tenants and help that site stay as it is hopefully long into the future. So
based on the testimony of my four witnesses, I think we've fully satisfied the statutory criteria for D1 use variance and we request the relief. Thank you. >> Okay, board. Any questions, discussion,
motions? >> Um, I move that we grant Hound Town 543, Inc. uh the uh D1 use variance uh that will allow it to open and
operate a dispensary at 1695 Amwell Road, block 386.04, 04 lots 36-38 uh with um hours of operation being
limited to uh 10:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night Monday uh through Saturday and on Sundays from 1:00 until 6 o'clock and that the there will be no um there
will be no special events held at the uh dispensary uh because of the minimal size of the space of the unit as well as the limited parking.
>> Is there a second? >> I'll second. >> Anybody have any comments? >> My comment is that Oh. My comment is that the um I look at this
case and I've got a school, I've got a library, I've got the recreational um uh space with the gazebo and everything. And my initial thought was that this site is not
uniquely suited to have this type of a development because of all of the other uh things going on around uh this property. Now, I know the planner came down and did a chapter inverse sort of
thing about all the lovely things about having this on this site and that there would be no detriment, but it just doesn't seem like a place that uh really
should hold uh this type of a um of a business. However, the my other issue is, as was rather elegantly stated by the last person who spoke up at the up at
the uh the microphone there, was that neither the state nor the town has decided to uh make any restrictions in use uh that uh relate to the location of
a school or the library or any other uh type of business. So, it's a little tough to um hold this person uh subject uh to those rules, especially when I
hear that these types of the woman who spoke toward the end, she was also very helpful in me understanding what's what I should be thinking about and she was talking about the fact that there are the other schools in town are also also
located near uh uh sites uh of temptation. I'll put it that way. And that seems to be um uh going okay. I don't hear any horrible things about what's happening at those locations.
Um so I uh uh I I think I'm I'm going to vote in favor of this. There's one thing I'd like to add to the um uh there's one thing I'd like to add to the motion that
I've made and that is that the signage on the outside of the building will be limited to the signage exactly as it appeared on the picture of the um of the uh facility shown
during this hearing. Can I get a second for that? I'll second that. Second. That should not be a problem. >> Okay. Good. >> Right. >> Yes. >> Okay. I'll have to uh >> weigh on in on this, too. I I probably
am I'm going to support it. Uh I have the same concerns that a lot of the uh objectors mentioned today, but there's no place there's no place to put these facilities
or any facility like it that I can think of that's that's quote free from any any issues. And uh they don't there's no guidance from the council or I guess there is guidance because there is a
lack of of uh standards that they put in in terms of schools and things like that. It's anywhere you put it 18 dispensaries in this town is probably going to be fairly close to a school or
some facility. And in a sense, uh, I'm hearing, don't put it in our neighborhood, put it in someone else's neighborhood. And I don't go for that either. There's no I didn't hear any any legal issues that
they're not addressing. Uh schools are always a concern, but as far as I'm concerned in that uh situation after working almost 50 years in the school, they're the kids are at least supervised. Samson Smith is
relatively in walking distance of this facility, but it's not an easy easy walk. Uh, I don't see any compelling reason to reject this and I'm open to any other discussion or
uh if you're ready a vote on the motion. >> With all with all respect to Mr. Thomas and Mr. Sheepard u most of the comments uh especially the comment from
Mr. guy uh he he he actually went to the wrong place. All his comments should have been said at a council meeting. And as Mr. Healing has indicated since this is the first time that either the
planning board or the board of adjustments has to make a decision notwithstanding what the council has since this is the first time as a uh
board of adjustment member I'm going to vote no. Well, >> are we voting or are we >> We'll entertain more discussion if anybody has anything to say, but that's we didn't vote yet. So,
>> yeah, I'll just say I I am in the same agreement with Mr. Thomas and Shephard in terms of mindset that the governing body had the ability to provide restrictions uh in the zones they permitted this use. Uh they did not. Um so, that's part and parcel what's
swaying my decision. Well, but the governing body is a separate body. We have our own uh you know decisions to make especially since this is uh a variance. It is you know now like I guess like do we believe that
this contributes to the promotion of general welfare you know I think if we don't believe that somehow this is going to contribute to general welfare I think it's fine to vote no and or that there is undue
hardship to go somewhere where it is actually allowed and that we can't control but this we can >> of course >> any other comments Then >> I guess we vote. >> Okay. So the first was Shephard and the
second was Percanic and all you all were just talking in discussion. Correct. I can still go with that. I understand. >> Okay. Richard Panic. >> For the reasons I agree with Mr. Sheffer Thomas. Yes. >> Basim Berdas. >> I vote no for the reasons I just
>> that you stated. Okay. Gary Rosenthal. No, for the reasons I stated. >> Robert Shephard. >> Yes, for the reasons that I stated. >> Kunal Lakia. >> I'm very torn right now. And uh there are very compelling arguments
on both the sides. Um >> one from a business perspective, the state, the council, nobody bothered if this can be anywhere
and I do agree with my colleague here also that whatever that they may have done it is here it is about variance And you can control it. >> I I am going to say
>> you say you guys cannot be yelling from the thing. It's not allowed. >> I'm going to say I I would have liked that you would have scoped a piece or two more uh before you chose this.
Um I understand that from a business perspective it's going to be very controlled and so on. I I'm going to say yes. Uh the the only reason why I'm going to say yes is because
um there are arguments that were made from the business perspective that somebody can go to the liquor store, can go anywhere. Uh but here it's hopefully going to be more controlled. Um time will tell.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Uh Shapendo, >> I will have to say no. And the reason why is I'm a first responder. I work for the EMS squad as a volunteer. And over the last couple of years, I have seen an
increased number of incidents coming out of these dispensaries. 30% of the overdosed cases that I attend to are originating from uh products consumed from these dispensaries.
I do find the opportunity for the owner, for the business owner here to find another location. I respect the license. I respect the approve uh uh council um uh
numbers, etc., but I can't approve for this. >> Am I okay to can I change my vote? >> No. >> That's a question for Brian. That's not a question for you. >> He voted. He already voted.
>> So, he asked, "Can he change his vote?" >> All right, we're going to wait for the attorney to answer. Thank you. >> You You already voted. You already voted. Yes. We're going to have to stick with that vote.
>> Can't change your vote after you hear. >> Thank you, Brian. It's it's it's not going to pass anyway because you know they don't have enough votes. >> You don't need to change, >> right? >> Okay. That's the way it is. It's it's >> Well, hold on. I I need your vote.
>> My votes going to be would have been a yes. >> Yes. Okay. I just have to do it legally. So, I know that's what your vote was. I already marked you down, but I need you to say it. So, your vote is yes. >> And >> as I said, I I vote yes. I already stated reasons before and I
also want to thank the board because this was obviously a tough decision and then your thoughts and the time you took to make the decision reflected the thought that you put behind it and uh this was especially tough
as I said because of some of the lack of guidance in a sense from the state and the council and the fact that this is a unique first application for anything like this. >> Okay. So, Brian, just to keep everything
on the record and clean, as of the tally, there are four people who voted, four members who have voted yes. >> Yeah. Four yeses, three nos. >> That is correct. I'm just letting you know. >> So, it doesn't >> It does not pass. >> Okay. I need you to say that. >> We will now entertain a motion to close.
>> I move that we adjourn. >> Is there a second? Second >> and Brian, I know it's after the meeting, but