Order in accordance with this is the zoning board meeting of May 21st to 2026. In accordance with the open public meetings act PL1 1975 chapter 231. Adequate notice of this regular meeting of the zoning board of
the township of Franklin's been provided. Board members, applicant, professionals, members of the public, please speak directly in the microphones so the recording secretary can properly process minutes. Applicants and professionals, please fill out the sheet
on the table when you've completed your testimony. Thank you. And would you call the role, please? >> John, the sheet is over to your Yeah, you're right. Okay. Uh, Kunal Lakia and Cherobia asked to be
excused this evening. Richard Proanic. Basim Verdas >> here. Alan Rich >> here. >> Gary Rosenthal >> here. >> Robert Shepard >> here. >> Michael Dy. >> Chairman Thomas >> here. Moving to
hearings. 11 properties. ZBA 24001 was a preliminary and final major site plan with C variances in which the applicant proposed to construct a four-story apartment building at 940
East and Avenue Somerset, block 385, lot 2.07 in the GB zone. This application has been withdrawn. The Islamic Circle of North America ZBA24
D1 use variance in which the applicant seeks approval for interior renovations converting a portion of the premises from office use to a prayer room house of worship 1320 Hamilton Street. Block
90, lot three in the P1 zone is carried to a date to be determined. Not going to be heard tonight and a new notification uh will be needed. Art Heinrich is EBA 26004.
It's a D1 use variance in which the applicant seeks approval to convert the second floor uh from storage space to living space at 6 Hawthorne Drive, Somerset, block 126, lot 194 in the HBO
zone. This has been carried to June 4th. Notification needed to outside agencies. First hearing forth tonight in Glacia Christristiana Refugeio Incorporated ZBA
21 26 A O1 D3 conditional use variance and site plan which the applicant proposes to utilize the existing two-story frame building as a house of worship at 680 Eastn Avenue Somerset block 322 lots 1
through nine in the OP zone. and go ahead. >> No small button in the back and then turn the big square on. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, good evening chairman,
board members. My name is John Duca, the law firm Salvo Shock. I'm here tonight on behalf of the applicant in Glacia Christristiano Refugeio Incorporated. Uh this is a nonprofit house of worship organization. We're here for application number ZBA 260000001 and it's for the property located at 680
Eastn Avenue. That's block 322, lots 1 through 7 and lot 9. Uh so it's eight parcels total. They're they're skinny parcels and we we'll display them and and show them in a moment, but it's lots one through seven and lot nine. Um this is in the OP zoning district. It's the
office professional zone where places of worship are treated as a permitted but conditional use pursuant to the standard set forth at section 112-37 in the township code. Uh right now the existing conditions of the site uh it's a
halfacre site uh with an existing two-story office building. Uh it has a rear parking lot with access from Gerard Avenue. It's uh situated at the corner of Easton and Gerard. Um the existing
office building on the on the site is uh a little bit over 46600 square ft. and uh our architect and engineer will uh describe what exists there and what's proposed in a little bit more detail. But the applicant proposes um no external um or I should say no no no uh
expansion to the building whatsoever. There will be interior uh renovations and and some uh altering of the windows but no no additions uh to the building and and no increase in height or anything like that. So the the interior work would configure uh reconfigure the
existing building to accommodate a prayer hall, an altar, a baptismal area, kitchen and fellowship rooms, uh offices, uh foyer, storage area, and restrooms. Uh the prayer hall uh the prayer hall occupancy uh will max out at
64 occupants. Uh the applicant also proposes to uh mill and repave the parking lot uh so that the uh existing parking can better accommodate the proposed house of worship providing 23 parking spaces and two ADA accessible
spaces. Uh to do all this we require several items of relief. uh we all of them um bump getting bumped up to the D3 variants because although they are uh related to bulk deviations because this is a conditional use and
we're seeking deviations seeking uh relief for deviations from those conditional use standards. Uh this is a D3 variance and I I will note there are only uh five voting members uh sitting on the board tonight. Um, so we we'll see how the hearing goes and we'll
address that issue uh later on. But I do note that uh all all five uh of your votes will be required for an approval tonight. So uh the specific standards that we're seeking relief from will be the parking requirement uh where uh the the TRC has determined that 54 spaces
are required and only 23 spaces are proposed. Uh so that's a 31 space deficiency. Um the front yard setback of the building where 50 ft is required only 22.4 ft is existing and proposed. So no
changes uh are proposed there but it is an existing uh 27.6 ft deviation. Uh the same goes for the front setback 50 ft is required only 19.7 ft are existing and proposed. So it's a 30.3 ft deviation.
And and finally uh we do deviate from the buffer landscaping requirement where uh between 15 and 25 ft is required with uh double rows evergreen shrubs and a 6ft fence. There is existing vegetation in that area which
we will display and get into a little bit more with the testimony and exhibits presented by professionals. uh but we are requesting a deviate a relief from that requirement given the existing uh given the existing vegetation in that
area. Uh we will be presenting five witnesses tonight. Uh the first you'll hear fact testimony from Ingred Blanco, a member of the congregation who has prepared statement. You'll hear from our site engineer, Ron Saddowski. Uh you'll hear from Ruchi Dar, our our architect.
Elizabeth Dolan is our traffic engineer. and Kevin O'Brien is our professional planner. Uh, for the sake of the record, I will note that adequate notice of this hearing um has been published and uh served on all property owners within 200 ft and an affidavit of that those
services have been provided uh to the board's professionals. So, unless there's any legal questions for me or any housekeeping matters, I would ask that my first witness, Miss Ingred Blanco, be sworn in to testify. >> Okay. Go ahead, >> Blanco. Would you raise your right hand,
please? Testimony you're about to give is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help you God. >> Yes. >> You have to speak much louder than that. And that's right. And bring the microphone very close to your mouth. >> Okay. >> No. No. You need to speak louder than
that. No. Okay. It's got to be louder. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Bueno. >> Thanks. >> State your full name. Spell your last name for your the record and your relationship to this application. >> My name is Ingred Blanco. Last name B L
A N C O. >> And how are you affiliated with the church? >> I am a member of the church. >> All right. Thank you. I understand you have a prepared statement. Why don't you share with us what you have to say? >> Sure. Thank you.
Um I would like to just read the um church history tonight. Um so Christina Refu is officially incorporated in June 2019 beginning with
funding membership of approximately 40 individuals committed to building a Christc center community focused on uh worship service and outreach. Prior to formal incor incorporation, the ministry sought to establish a stable place of
worship and was graciously given the opportunity to share facilities with Somerset Baptist Church located at 9 Persian Avenue, Somerset, New Jersey. This partnership provided a foundational space needed to begin structure
services, leadership development, and uh community engagement. From its inception, the church has operated with a clear mission to serve both spiritual and practical needs to the community through faith-based outreach,
disciplehip, and charitable initiatives. As the congregation became established, the ministry experienced steady growth in participation, volunteer engagement, and community presence. In 2020 with CO
19 pandemic significant significantly impacted in-person gatherings, Eiglesia Christina adapted its operations to continue serving both its members and surrounding community. Worship services transitioned to a fully
virtual format me uh maintain continuity of the ministry while prioritizing public healthy and safety. At the same time, the organization expanded its charitable efforts to launching regular food distributions
initiatives to community assistance programs beginning in 2020. These food drives were sustained and consistently through late 2023, providing essential support to families facing food insecurity and economic
hardship during and after the pandemic. Community outreach remain remains a central pillar of the church operational structure. Christina Herpu organizes volunteer lead programs focused on food distribution,
neighborhood support initiatives, and faith-based community events. These efforts are coordinated through ministry teams that oversee outreach, logistics, volunteer coordination, and program implementation, ensuring that the church
charitable activities are both organized and sustainable. Today, Igla Christristana Refu continues to grow as a mission-driven organization committed to evangelism, disciplehip, and service. Its ministry program include local outreach initiatives, leadership
development, worship training and international mission engagement. The church ministry uh music ministry and worship development program also serve as an important platform for mentoring and equipping uh new leaders through structured
training and disciplehip. Through this ministry and charitable efforts, Igla Christina Rafuho seeks to cultivate a community to of believers dedicated not only to spiritual growth but also meaning meaningful service by combining
faith-based teaching and t uh with tangible acts of support for those in need. The organization continues to expand its its impact both locally and globally. All of this work reflects the church's
guiding purpose to live out Christ's teachings through service, compassion, and community engagement. Thank you. >> Thank you. I don't have any further questions uh for Miss Blanco, but if the if the board does have any uh operational questions, uh another
representative of the church, Cam Deliz, is here to answer those operational questions. Um but um obviously if the board has any questions for Miss Blanco, uh we welcome those. But if not then uh we are ready to move on to our next witness. >> Any any questions? You probably answer
this. How many members do you have? >> About 60 members. >> How many? >> 60 around >> 60. Anybody else? Okay. >> Open to the public. >> Uh okay. Well, we're open to the public for
this witness if anyone has any questions you want to ask her concerning her testimony. Uh, seeing nobody, we'll close and then move on. Go ahead. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thanks.
>> My, uh, my next witness is Mr. Ron Sidowski. He is our site engineer. >> If he could please be sworn in to testify. >> Testimony. You're about to give truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth to help you guide. Yes. Be
>> before you start, you had said that you were going to have another person come up and speak to operational issues of the church. >> I said they would if they would be available if you had any uh technical questions about the operations of the church. >> I'll have questions. >> I assume so. >> Okay.
>> Yeah. So, um, why don't we have him state his full name, spell his last name for the record, his qualifications, and by whom he's employed. Ronald J. Saddowski, S A
D O W S K I U, 10 Edward Avenue, Edison, New Jersey. I have uh I prepared the site plan drawings. I'm um self-employed. I've been a licensed professional engineer for 32 years. I've uh testified before
this board on numerous occasions. Uh I graduated in 1988 with a bachelor of civil engineering from New Jersey Institute of Technology and again I received my professional engineering license in 1994.
>> That's fine. >> Yes. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you so much. Uh Mr. interested to ask you before we uh get into the site plan and some of your more technical testimony, I just want to orient the board uh to the site and the surrounding area. So, um up on the
screen, does is that a a accurate representation of the surrounding area >> of the surrounding area? Yes, it is. >> Mark this counselor is A1. I know you pro previously provided, but for purposes of the record, >> okay, >> the witness would indicate who the
author of it is and the date >> this I I'll I'll disclose this. I took the screenshot today from uh new jersey partial explorer.com. So this is an aerial view of the property um taken today. >> Has this been he's gathered and not provided to >> this was not provided. So it's
correctly. >> You'll provide a copy to Miss Woodberry. >> Certainly. >> Thank you. >> The next uh exhibit that we're going to show was in fact provided and Mr. Sadaski if you want me to zoom in on anything for the sake of the board. >> This is A2. >> Yes, this is A2. This is the the first
page of our site plan. Uh the page is marked S1 and uh the date is uh of this document is December 1st, 2025. Uh this cover drawing uh contains the bulk schedule for the property along
with the key uh and zoning maps showing that the uh property in question is surrounded by residential R20, R7, R10 zone and then the strip along Eastern Avenue is within the OP uh office
professional zone. Um the bulk schedule uh contains a breakdown of the uh site characteristics, the um lot area, lot frontage, setbacks,
etc. Um as was mentioned pre or earlier um we are seeking several variances that exist uh that we are not exacerbating uh such as the front yard setback along Eastn Avenue uh the existing and proposed will
remain 22.4 ft. the uh front yard set back along Gerard will uh will stay at 19.7 uh feet and the imperous coverage uh where 45%
is the maximum allowed we have an existing imperous coverage of 50.1%. Um the uh we are increasing imperous coverage at the uh parking lot side entrance to the building by roughly 70
square ft uh to widen the uh the access area. But that has no impact or dimminimous impact on the um the percentage of increase. Uh it's imperceptible. So that's why it still
remains 50.1 uh% impervious coverage. Now if we go to uh drawing S2 which is contained >> A3 I'm sorry >> no problem please continue. >> Okay. Now uh this is S S2 uh the um site
improvement plan which is part of the application or the site plan drawing set. It depicts the uh the building. It's a two-story building with a ramped um access to the um lower level from uh
Eastston Avenue and Gerard. And then within the parking lot, there's another ramped access to the first floor or the upper level. There uh what is shown on this site plan drawing is a restriping
of an existing parking lot. The parking lot's not going to increase in size whatsoever. The curbing the the boundaries of the curbing are going to remain the same. Uh it's just being restriped to provide 23 parking spaces
which includes two ADA access van accessible parking spaces. There will be a new um painted uh stop bar, stop sign, and and stop uh uh lettering on the
pavement. Uh that access is it's a it's a two-way access uh from Gerard Avenue. And the entire lot will be mil and resurfaced to give a new appearance.
There are no um other site improvements um proposed. The um there is a an existing 19 ft separating the uh parking lot from uh lot 10 to the
south which is the top of the page and also 19 ft um to the west which is lot 8. It does reduce to 7 feet where we have a an existing uh uh wall which
hides the uh the concrete pad the dumpster pad that uh exists and that will not change. Uh does the I have no further questions for Mr. Stouski. Does the board have any questions about the site plan? >> I have a bunch. But uh what we need to
do is go back to Mr. Saddowski. >> Yes. >> Let's go back to your first uh uh picture that you put up there. >> Okay. >> That one or the second one? >> This one. >> I think you want this picture.
>> Right there. >> Okay. So, >> don't move it around. Be helpful. Um, >> grab a mic. Bob, please. >> Use a mic. >> Bob, use a mic. Just grab it. >> Jesus Christ.
>> Okay, I'm good. Now, um, where's where's your building on this picture? Is it is it here somewhere? Is a >> No, a little bit to the right. To the right. That there where the cursor is. There you go. That's it. Correct. That's your building. >> Yes.
>> And when I looked at it, when I first looked at it, so you're you're really there's no other building between Gerard and your building. That is correct.
>> Okay. So, and there's and there's as you've described it, there's a a ramp to the first floor or the upper floor. >> The upper floor >> and there's a ramp to the lower floor. That's correct.
>> How do you get from the lower floor to the upper floor? >> Interior stairs. >> Okay. All right. So, >> the architect will describe more of that when >> Okay. >> during testimony. And here is
here's your parking lot. Correct. And And you get into the you get Oh, here we go. You get into the property here >> from Gerard. That's correct. >> Okay. >> Enter and exit one uh through Gerard. There's one one access.
>> All right. And the and this is a traffic question, but I'm going to bet that you can answer it. Um, there's no barrier on 27 to a lefthand turn. >> That's correct. >> I'm sorry. Eastern Avenue, not >> Eastern Avenue. Yes, that's correct. >> Okay.
And it also looks looking at this it looks like how far back do we how far back does the property go past the parking lot? >> Uh 19 ft to the I'll call it the bottom or the
south. >> If this north south doesn't work with me. So, so you're >> Oh, I moved it again. I apologize. >> He's doing it again. So, so what
So, what happens here is that >> in this direction there's like 19 there's 19 there. Okay. But you're already over the limit with the uh impervious coverage. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's correct. >> Yep. Thanks. Mhm.
Any other questions? >> You want to go over any of this stuff or no? >> Just one question before we get to >> Mr. Sed and excuse me if if you already addressed this the TRC um are any are
you going to comply with the technical comments in the TRC report? >> Yes, we we can do that. Yes, absolutely. >> Thank you. >> All all of them. Yes, all of them. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions?
>> Then we'll open to the You're finished. >> Yes. No further questions for Mr. St. >> Open to the public. If there is anyone who wants to ask this witness questions concerning his testimony, this is the time. No one seems to be
taking it up. So, we'll close to the public and you can move to the next witness. >> Thank you. >> I think my preference is um Mr. Sheepard brought it up before and I have the same
concerns. Maybe we should hear from the uh person in charge of operations or whatever. It'll give us a perspective uh for the witnesses to come. >> That's fair. That's fair enough. So um when you come up,
>> good evening everyone. >> Please raise your hand. >> Testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So I help you God. >> Yes. State your full name, spell your last name for the record, and indicate what involvement you have with the
applicant. >> My full name is Cat Mile Feliz. My last name is spelled F E L I Z and I am I work as a financial analyst for the church volunteer >> for the church. What? >> Uh financial analyst.
>> Okay. >> So, uh m Mr. Please, could you remind us how many uh members of the church are there? >> There's approximately 60 members. >> Okay. Now, um we're going to see in a few moments after your testimony, we'll see some architectural drawings about
floor plans um that will show really this building being um designed or modified to accommodate two spaces. Uh the house of worship area and then uh associated office space and dining space. Is that correct? Correct.
>> All right. And those two separate spaces will never be used at the same time. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> So just to make it perfectly clear, when the house of worship area is being used, the office space and the dining area will not be used. >> That is correct. >> And when the office area and the dining
area is used, the house of worship area will not be used. >> That is correct. You're missing I'm sorry your question. I liked your question, but it's missing one word. Uh kitchen. So the kitchen and the dining room and the offices there that's all
one group that will be when it's in use the area of worship area is not in use and when the worship when the the area of the kitchen and dining room etc is in use the the worship area is
not in use. >> That is correct. >> Okay. So can can you tell us what will I I think most people understand that the house of worship be be used for for religious services but what will the kitchen dining area and office spaces be used for? >> So the office spaces uh will be used for
staff to conduct one-on-one meetings with certain members if they need to have a kind of a um any kind of sessions where they discuss any topic um personal issues kind of a counseling space. Um and the kitchen area and the gathering area will be used for uh social
gatherings for the church. So meanwhile that's being used. The uh worship areas will not be used. >> Okay. And no nobody is going to reside at this property. Correct. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Um so how frequently will the kitchen and
dining area be used? >> Um I'd say we hold activities once or twice a quarter. Um not too often. >> Okay. And how many um how many people do you expect to attend uh these activities or events? >> Uh typically um attendance ranges from
60 to 70 people. >> Okay. Now for um for the house of worship for the church services uh what's what is your uh religious service schedule? >> Uh so we hold services uh four times a
week. um Tuesdays, uh Fridays and Sundays, and Thursday online service. >> Okay. For those in-person services, uh does every member drive a car? >> Uh no, we we usually expect families um to arrive at a church and um they come
together. >> Okay. Do you um provide any transportation services? >> At this moment, we do not, but we um we are open to doing that in the future if need be. >> Okay. Um, do you have any idea of how many uh congregants might live within
walking distance of the church? >> Um, I can't say off the top of my head. Um, but I know there are a few people that do live close to the church. >> Okay. Um, I do not have any uh further questions for Mr. Feliz, but I'm sure the board does. >> What are the times? What are the times
of the services? Uh, so on Tuesdays we hold services um I could check the schedule real quick, but typically from 7:00 p.m. to about 8:39 >> and they're on those are the weekdays. >> Yes. So Tuesdays um 7:30 to 9:00. Um
from Friday we hold service from 7:30 to 9:00 p.m. and Sunday from 5 to 7:00 p.m. >> Okay. Is this a facility that will host or or perform weddings and or funerals?
>> Um I don't believe so. >> Ju just to just to follow up and and clarify that question. Um so uh some you know sometimes when people get married they might have the ceremony in one place and the reception in another. Um you know it was
When you were answering the chairman's question, are you referring to the reception not taking place on site or you wouldn't even provide the the wedding service or the funeral service? >> Um, as a funeral service, I don't expect us to to hold um I guess um the full funeral service, but if there is an
event, I I guess if there's a kind of reunion to commemorate somebody and there's a meeting at the church, I think we'd be open to doing that. Uh um I have a question about the name of the church. It's Eiglacia Christiana
Refugeio. And what does Refugeio mean? >> Yeah. So refugeio translates directly into refuge. Um so the name basically is a Christian church of refuge. Um it ties with our mission. We want to be a refuge for people that that need help, need
support. uh and want to be um a positive force for the community. >> So, and and the people that you offer the refuge to are the members of the church or is it some broader group that
you invite to be to be to receive uh help from the church? >> That's a great question. Um our church is fully inclusive. Uh we accept people from all backgrounds, colors, creeds, um walks of life. Um we we we look to share
a positive message for everybody and uh we're totally open to um the entire community of New Jersey um and and United States both online as well as in person um to be a positive force in their lives. >> Let me try and ask that question in a
different way. Um, do you offer any refuge services now? Any help to people now in your church? >> Yes. >> And who are the people are the people
who are receiving these services? Are they members of the church? >> Uh, yes. We offer that to members of the church. Um, as Ingred testified in the past, we held food drives for the community for a long time and we ended
that in late 2023 and those were fully open to the entire community. >> Okay. All right. I get that. Thank you. Those are uh those are good answers. >> Thank you. >> I have a question. How quickly is your congregation growing? Like compared to two years ago to now, has your
membership grown substantially? >> Um, it's grown it's grown it's grown pretty well. Um when we first got incorporated in 2019, we had about 40 people. Um and now it it's grown pretty strongly. Um so yeah, that would be my answer. >> So and you expect it to continue to
grow? >> Yes. Uh we would love to have more growth um and be able to serve as many people as possible. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. That was going to be my question too. But what is the maximum capacity of the uh church? How many people can you
get in there? Uh yeah so 64 people was uh what was stated um so I guess the concern from the board would be if we have dramatic growth let's say we have 100 people in 3 years how could we accommodate all those people so the answer to that would be we would hold more services to be able to
accommodate as many the people that come and that way we would stay beyond be stay below uh whatever is the established uh limit for the property so we'd never be above that >> cuz ju just to Just to reiterate, at at this time you only uh plan or intend to
offer a single service on Sundays. Correct. >> At this time, yes. Um if if uh if need be, we're open to expanding that to have multiple services. Are there any other activities uh
maybe religious instruction or or any educational programs you're offering during the week at other times than than your uh services? >> Yes. Uh namely on Tuesdays we offer leadership training um to the people of
the church. Um so we do offer trainings. Um we do offer uh spousal support for for marriages as well. Um and um we we have uh male a men's group. We also have a women's group. Um we also have children's ministry and uh we do global
missions as well. So wide variety of activities that were involved in >> the these would cover every day of the week at some point or is there a regular schedule or they by need or by appointment or
>> Yeah. So we those don't run every single day of the week. Um we have special days that we dedicate to those ministries. Uh so let's say we want to hold an event for the for the men's group. We would have let's say that Friday we would hold that that special service for men's group. Or let's say the kids want to
have a special a special event. We we'd have that Sunday dedicated to the children. Um so it wouldn't be outside of the regular schedule. >> Okay. Any other questions? >> Uh yeah I have a couple more. Do you have a pastor? >> Oh, I'm know who.
>> Uh, yes. Uh, my pastor is right there. That's my father. >> Does he live on on the premises? >> Uh, no, he does not. >> Go ahead. But that was it. What he asked was what I was going to ask. Any any other questions?
That's the complete extent of the activities that take place. Uh nothing special, no special holidays or um festivals or anything like that.
>> Uh no, up to now that is the extent of the activities um at the at the place. >> Okay. Again, any other questions? Just one. Oh, go ahead. >> Okay, let's get into parking. Um, you
have 22 spaces required and 23 spaces proposed. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. And what if you do get bigger, what what are you going to do with overflow parking then? So if we run into a situation where we
have overflow parking, we will create we will establish another service time so that we split the uh the amount of people that come to the church. >> All right. And then what about the uh requirements for the the basement and because there's 54
total spaces required if if you you if you that's probably where you were going with this. 54 spaces required for everything for the congregation upstairs and the basement. >> Yes.
>> Uh so I guess uh if you could reiterate your question. >> I wish I could. >> Uh I if I if I could uh try to assist. So the the area that um on its own
requires the that requires the 23 spaces that's the house of worship area. That is correct. >> And that area will ne never be used at the same time as the other area. >> Correct. One at a time. >> So there'll never be a situation where we're holding a service and there's also
an activity simultaneously happening downstairs. It just be one or the other. >> Let let me let me explain that a little bit. Um so when an application comes in um basically when it's an application for a house of worship and there are um
more than one areas that can be used for assembly you know I as the staff as the zoning officer you know I can't necessarily in my opinion make the call that one area is going to be used for service and another area is not. So I've
always um taken the position that you know all of the areas that could potentially be used for service should be included as you know towards the parking requirement. And then what you know this applicant is saying and it is consistent with a lot of other applications. They're basically
testifying now to you that they're going they have the one area that that's their worship area and they have a second area basically for fellowship. I would I would assume after their services and for that reason that they are not going to be using both of those simultaneously
and I'm assuming um that they would be agreeable to that as a condition of the approval. I think >> absolutely >> I think that's the the intent of their um testimony. Um so again I just wanted to clarify that to you. You know again I don't feel it's you know my position to kind of make that call. They need to
prove that to you and um see if you're satisfied with that answer. >> So is it your recommendation or at least interpretation Mr. Healey for the board that minimally there's a parking variance for the fellowship use because
23 spaces are required and the calculation requires 32 >> I I think I I think the answer is that you know for practical purposes the the worship the area of that's that they're actually proposing for the worship area
results in a parking requirement. of 23. Um the based on the square foot, I guess the fellowship hall just happens to be a larger space. So that kind of makes up the difference between the 23 and 54. You know, I'm assuming that they're not
going to have more people in the fellowship hall than were previously worshiping, you know, in the previous hour. You know, they're going to have, you know, you know, let's say it's 60 people worshiping. Can't imagine they're going to have more than 60 people going to fellowship afterwards. I would assume
they probably have less. You know, a few people probably tr you know, have to go about their day and maybe, you know, I mean, not everybody's going to fellowship at the same time. I'm assuming that's the way it would be. And perhaps if you could, I'm seeing some positive head nods. Perhaps if you could testify to that. >> Yeah, I can definitely testify to that.
Um, we hold currently at the facility we're at at 9 Persing Avenue. Um sometimes we hold fellowship upstairs in that location and um you know there that tends to be a lot of overflow of people going away and going home and leaving. Um so not everybody that's at that at
the service ends up fellowshipping >> the services that you provide in person which is I believe three. >> That is correct. >> Is that what you're currently providing at 9 Persian? >> That is correct. Do you get
the same number of people for each service? >> Uh no. So for the uh Tuesday services um typically we expect to see about nine families. Um and around >> translates into how many people? >> Translates to about 30 35 people. On
Fridays we expect to see about uh 12 families which translates into about 45 attendants. And on Sunday, um we expect to see about 20 um families and that translates into about 60 to 70 people.
>> Any other questions? >> One more question. Typ typical question we have for a place of worship. The fellowship hall, is that going to be rented out to outside entities? >> No, it will not be. >> All right. Thank you. And what about sidewalks? Who do I talk to about
sidewalks? I the map doesn't I can't tell by the map on the sidewalks. Would that be you or the >> We could bring Ron back up. >> Would that be Mr. Saddowski? >> Yeah. >> Y >> uh before Mr. leaves and we bring back the engineer.
Um that's the current membership assuming a no change no increase which I assume is the desire of the church is obviously increase the number of parishioners. >> That is correct. >> Um is the applicant willing to agree that it will not rent out the fellowship
hall? >> Yes. >> As a condition of approval. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you. >> All right. We'll finish before we move back. one. Any anyone in the audience like to ask this witness a question on his based on his testimony? If not, then
we'll close that part to the public and then uh I think there was a another question for the engineer. Just Yeah. >> Thank you, Mr. >> I. Thank you. So, I'm once again displaying uh what
was previously marked as A2. Um I believe Mr. Rich had a question about sidewalks. >> Yes. It's hard to tell by the picture, but the sidewalks, do they go all the way around? >> Uh no, they do not. The sidewalks uh go
to the ramp along uh Easton Avenue and then there there is a township sidewalk that goes along Gerard and then uh in the parking lot itself there is sidewalk that um that goes into
the building into the ramp that leads to the building but not along the perimeter of the building itself. And ju just a a question for clarification, Mr. Sidowski. Um all along EN Avenue and all along Gerard
Avenue, uh there is sidewalk, correct? >> There is sidewalk and ADA ramps, correct? >> Okay. >> Any anything else for the engineer? Yeah, I I'll say that in the TRC report, it says in number four, provide a sidewalk access easement for the
existing sidewalk along Gerard Avenue. Um, and the applicant has already uh said that they can comply with all of the uh numerated um
paragraphs in the PRC report. So, I think we've got that. >> Mr. Duca, um, is your client also in possession of the Environmental Commission's report? >> We are. >> Who's going to testify as to that? Is
>> we we can we can speak to that right now while Mr. Sidowski is up here with me. Um, let's see. So the first comment talks about um the the buffer that we're requesting relief
from. So Mr. Sidowaskki, can you talk a little bit about the um the existing vegetation along the southern edge of the property where uh actually it's it's a it's along two edges of the property where the buffer is required. >> That is correct. there there's existing
uh mature uh trees along those two property lines. Uh we're not proposing to eliminate any of them. We do have, as I had mentioned previously, 19 feet between the edge of the parking
lot and the property lines at those two locations, except where we have the dumpster pad, which has a um a block wall to screen the uh dumpster pad from
the property line. That's where we reduce down to 7 ft. Uh, so we do have the 15 feet in the other areas. >> You have 15 feet, but you don't have the evergreen trees there, right? You've just got some deciduous trees.
>> That's correct. We don't we just have the deciduous trees in that area. That's correct. >> Okay. >> So, that's that's their first comment. Um the second comment uh refers to uh EV make ready spaces. Um that's one that
the the applicant is isn't financially not in in a position to uh comply with at this time. Um the same goes for the installation of solar panels. These are two issues that the applicant is open to and interested in in the future when capital investment makes that possible.
But at this time, the applicant's not in a financial position to do that. Um, same goes for the pvious pavement. While the applicant is intending to mill and repave, uh, uh, the pvious pavement is cost prohibitive. So, uh, that's another
thing that the applicant is not intending to, uh, comply with. the applicant will comply with the anti- idling signs and the applicant will comply with bicycle storage stations. >> Yeah, I'll just clarify. I I think the second bullet I don't think they're
correct. Um they're saying that the EV charging stations are required. >> They're not. This is not a new site. EV charging stations come into play when you're adding new parking spaces. So, I would consider the second bullet a recommendation.
Thank you. >> Just to confirm for the record, the current number of parking spaces on the site is >> well that's difficult to give an answer because the striping is faded and that's
as part of this application. If we go by the legal 9 by18 parking spaces >> we have 23. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So these comment of Mr. Healey then applies. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> I have no further questions for Mr. Sidowaskki unless the board has further questions. >> Anything else? Then we'll we'll do another opening to the public since there was some additional testimony. If anyone wants to
ask any questions about what you just heard, this would be the time to do it. If not, then we'll close and move on. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Saski. >> Uh my next witness will be our
architect, Ruchi Dar. Thank you. >> Good evening everybody. >> If she >> can you hear me? >> Good evening everybody. >> Okay, now we can hear you. >> Raise your right hand please. testimony you're about to give is truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth. So I help you God. >> Yes. >> State your full name, spell your last name for the record, your credentials and by whom you are employed. >> My name is Ruchi Dhar. Last name is DH AR. I'm a licensed architect in the
state of New Jersey. I am also ENARB certified and lead AP. I am testifying today on behalf of architect uh Mistri Ukesh Mistri and um I'm also licensed in the state of New Jersey, New York and
Maryland. I received my license in 2016 and my license is still active. >> Okay, thoughts following. >> Thank you. Uh and Miss Dar, as we go through your testimony, if you want me to zoom in or move around uh the exhibit, just let me know. And uh for the sake of the record, if we could
please mark this as A4. Um >> just to just to make sure the the company upon which she is retained is >> who is your employer? >> Oh u I have my own company called Adi Architectural Studio. I am testifying on
behalf of Yogesh Mistri today who couldn't make it to the meeting. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. So, um, >> this is A4. >> This is A4. This was, um, provided with our submission. This is an architectural
exhibit. Uh, it's a two-page exhibit. So, this is page one of that exhibit, and it is dated, uh, with the last revision of January 7th, 2026. >> Thank you. >> So, uh, MR, if you could walk us through, uh, the existing conditions,
uh, of the exterior. Looks like we're looking at some pictures, and then, uh, bring us through the rest of the plan, please. >> Yes. As you as you can see, these are the existing pictures of the building. It's a twostory building, basically a basement floor and a first floor. Um, it
is facing the intersection of two roads. Uh, on the on the lower side, if you can zoom in into the plants, the existing plans. >> Sure. Let me do one more. >> Thank you. So this is an existing building. The uh this was uh this was uh
rented out as two different office buildings for the doctor's office separately. And each floor is about uh 2,221. Actually basement is 2211 ft. The first
floor is 2489 ft. Overall the square footage is 48 4651 ft. Uh like I said, both the floors were rented out separately, but for the office use, which is the doctor's office, it can be accessed through the ramp and the
staircase. There's an existing ramp if you if you see uh let's zoom in into the basement floor first. >> Okay. Is that the one we're looking at or is it one over? >> Um is it this one or this one?
>> Uh it should be written at the bottom. >> Sorry. So that's the first floor. I can explain that first. >> All right. >> So the first floor has some office spaces, examination rooms, the lobby, a bathroom, a staircase at the back which
has those two exit doors exiting out to that parking lot. Yeah. Um towards the left side there's a ramp uh from the vestibule and basically they can exit out from the vestibule through the ramp out to the parking space. This has the
existing bathrooms, mechanical area. There's um the rest of the offices on this floor. So, um that's pretty much one of the floors. If we can go to the other floor. >> This is the existing
>> these are existing plans. >> Yes. >> So, this is this is the basement layout. As you can see, there are some steps from Gerard Avenue towards the left. Uh there's a ramp facing parallel to the eastern avenue existing ramp which is
handicap accessible. The spaces have bathroom. There's a there's a existing staircase that goes up to the first floor and out to into the the back parking area. The rest of the spaces are the offices um and the circulation
spaces. So now we can go to the second uh to the second page which is the proposed layout. >> This is A5. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Let me zoom out a little bit more. >> Yeah.
>> So that's the proposed layout for the first floor plan. We have the prayer hall that shows 64 seats, 64 pews. There's a staircase going out into the vest tubule and out into the the back parking. Um there's an existing ramp
from the parking lot that goes inside the um foyer area. There's a reception desk, a handicap bathroom which is all new. So pretty much on this floor what we are doing is complete interior renovation providing an handicap accessible bathroom. The ramps are
existing. Certain windows we are closing it. That kind of gets affected with the walls. Um on the exterior we are not doing much because we are um keeping the windows where we can. Some of the windows that affect the wall locations are being covered up. But um and there
is a a chim a shaft uh an exhaust basically I'm sorry the kitchen exhaust that is towards the the north of the plan that is new um yeah up top. So overall interior
reconfiguration of the entire both the floors providing handicap accessible bathrooms. The access handicap access to both the floor is through the ramp and then we are also proposing an interior new staircase
from the basement to the first floor. >> Okay. And um I know that there's a there's an existing uh monument sign on the property. Correct. >> That's correct. And uh will the applicant be utilizing that? >> Yes. So it would be both sided. It would
have the illuminated uh signage. Um the uh post we are keeping it. We are uh renovating it. Right. So that's 25 ft 5 ft x 5 ft internally illuminated on both the sides. >> I don't have any uh further questions
for Miss Dar. >> Okay. Anything from the board? >> There was one one question in the TRC report asking uh explain how ADA access is provided to the basement should conform with barrierfree sub code.
>> Um so I would like to touch on that. Um, as per the code, we don't need an elevator because this is a two-story building. And, uh, what we have are the existing ramps uh that have access from the outside to the basement and a separate ramp from the back parking lot
to the first floor. On the inside, we have the staircases. So, ramps are the only way for um handic uh for uh in terms of accessibility to enter in. Uh now in terms of making the space inside more handicap accessible, yes, we are
providing spacious bathrooms that are handicap accessible. Um and uh and a good uh circulation space, a good lobby and a foyer area. >> Okay. So the basement is that so people would park in the
back, >> right? And how did how how would a handicapped person is that ramp in the front of the building? >> Yes, that's facing east because um this building was basically two separate floors that were rented separately. So they have access through the ramp to
enter in. So on the basement level, which is basically the lower level, the access handicap access would be through the ramp that's parallel to the eastern avenue. And on the first floor, it would be through the ramp that's facing the rear parking lot.
>> So, so now the the the place of worship uh is on the first floor. >> That's correct. >> That's kind of a basic question. You give me that look like what? Um,
and then the basement floor is where you would have um the dining room and the and the kitchen and >> right >> a lot of other things there. >> Okay. All right.
>> Yeah, I get it. >> So, if if I'm on the first floor and I want to go to the second floor, I have to go outside around the building and back in again. >> So, >> there is no second floor. Well, first >> to the basement and the first floor. So, >> the first floor. Yeah.
>> Um, there is a there are two staircases and again handicap access. Yeah, that would be through the ramp. >> Is that ADA approved? I mean, it's is that something? So there the as per the code handing the
elevator only comes in place if it's a mid-rise building since this building doesn't qualify or uh does not require as per the code an elevator to be um to be installed. Um there is a certain um there's 20% of the cost of construction
should go towards upgrades towards the handicap accessibility and we intend to put that 20% of the cost of construction towards making the space on the inside. uh accessible. So, did I answer your question? Any other any other questions?
We'll open again to the public. Anyone wish to ask this witness a question and we'll close to the public and I guess move on. >> Yes. Thank you. Um, our next witness uh will be Miss Elizabeth Dolan,
>> who you might have seen testify here once or twice. >> You can sit down. Elizabeth, >> we don't make Gary stand, you can um testimony. You're about to give truth to all truth. Nothing but truth to help you God. >> Yes.
>> State your full name, spell your last name for the record, your credentials, and by whom you're employed. Elizabeth Dolan, D O L Dolan and Dean Consulting Engineers, 181 West High Street in Somerville, New Jersey. I'm a licensed professional engineer with 40 years
experience in the traffic engineering field. Uh my license was recently renewed and I've appeared here many many times and been accepted as a traffic engineer as well as throughout many municipalities in New Jersey. >> Thank you. >> So uh what can you tell us about uh
traffic patterns and uh circulation at the site? Uh sure. Uh our office prepared and issued a traffic and parking study dated November 20, 2025. Um and that calls out the um proposal
for a 64 seat uh prayer hall uh 23 parking spaces and it summarizes on page three the testimony that you heard from Mr. Feliz regarding service hours and attendance levels. Um, so we also
compared that and I can go through those numbers again, but you know, you just heard them. Um, and it, as I said, it's all memorialized in my report on page three. I compared that with uh data published by the Institute of Transportation Engineers, IT. Uh, and
for peak service times, 22 entering, 23 exiting, and an hour. Uh, if if there were to be overlapping services, I would expect that, but I think that's going to be spread out a little bit more. You'd have the 23 coming in in 1 hour and then the 23 leaving after service was over.
And as was discussed, if there is fellowship, some of those people are going to be leaving. Some of them may stay and go downstairs. uh it has historically warned the user in both the trip generation and parking generation
manuals that the uh trip and parking rates vary substantially for houses of worship because there may be uh ancillary facilities uh more or less in in different church sizes. is my church.
There's classrooms. Uh there's a a gym. Uh this is a tiny church uh with, you know, one floor for uh regular attendance of uh services and then the ancillary facilities um in the lower level. So if you look at the trip rates based on square footage or seating,
they're pretty close when you use those it uh ratios. But that goes to also the parking. And as uh Mark Healey was discussing, every application that I've been involved with here in Franklin for houses of worship have required a calculation for all of the individual
areas. Uh those parking calculations are then uh added and there's a cumulative requirement. In this case, that cumulative requirement is 54 spaces. Uh but if you look at only the uh the seating capacity in the prayer hall, it's 64 seats divided by uh one space
for every three seats. That's 21.3 rounded up to 22 and we have the 23. So I think there was a little bit of maybe some of the transposing of numbers during the earlier testimony about the parking. Uh so it's 22 required for the uh seating in the in the prayer hall and
23 provided. Um and that's really the the sum of my traffic and parking statement that was submitted. >> Any questions? Yeah. What is your conclusion as far as the traffic?
>> Sure. >> I must have missed that. >> Well, I guess I I I kind of didn't go there, but thank you for bringing me back. Uh the level of traffic activity, if it is in 1 hour, 23 entering and 23 exiting, uh that is well below the level
that is defined significant in traffic engineering terms. Uh that would be 100 or more trips in a peak hour. Uh also as you heard from Mr. Pheliz, the service times are outside of the traditional peak hours on the street system. Uh
evenings on weekdays and even week uh Sunday uh of course. So we're looking at uh virtually no impact during the busiest peak hours on Eastn Avenue and the surrounding roadway system. Um and this use would be taking advantage of
the quieter traffic hours uh weekday evenings and on Sundays. Uh and as for the parking, the um parking lot will be upgraded as testified to by our engineer. 23 spaces that um are appropriately designed and marked and
also the ADA compliant spaces. Um and we're going to be milling and repaving. So we'll have a nice smooth surface and delineated parking. So that's certainly an upgrade and an enhancement to the subject property. So, I I'm I've been I've been waiting to
hear whether it would be um what letter of the alphabet the >> uh the intersection of I mean getting in and out of the parking lot onto Gerard. Nobody's got a problem with that. >> They got to get to Eastern Avenue and
they got to and that's that's that's not the easiest thing. No. What did you come up with? >> Well, I we did not do counts and an analysis of that intersection. I would say that though you're probably looking at the level of service D range um to get off of Gerard Avenue onto Easton. Uh
during busier hours maybe as people are coming into the church and the the volumes are quieting down on Eastn Avenue. Uh that movement into Gerard the left in would probably be at a A or B level. And then when the service is over 9 9:30 I think it is in here. Let me
just double check at 9:00 the volumes have quieted down a lot more probably close to what you're going to see Sunday. And so that you know maybe you're looking at a C D I think the left out because it's four lanes there. You're probably looking at CD most of the time when this is peaking.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> How about the left end of Gerard? >> The left end of Gerard. That's going to be an A or B >> from East. Yes. Mhm. >> You're saying the left turn in is a what?
>> It's probably in the A or B range left. That's left from onto Gerard. Yeah. >> Yep. >> That's kind of shocking to me because I think that's a really dangerous turn
>> almost any time. But >> it's usually how it calculates out. And again, we're looking at the quieter hours uh when when this church is going to be generating peak volumes. >> Yeah. But you're in an area with with high traffic and not great visibility,
not not a uh in terms of distance, >> right? somebody in the left lane. >> However minimal the traffic is, >> if you're in that left lane, you're accelerating and then all of a sudden there's someone making a left turn, it's
dangerous, but >> I don't know. It is what it is. I >> Yeah, and I do I I would imagine we've got a layer of review at the county level. I was just asking, but we're not sure the status of that yet >> because that's their road. Well, of course, you know, the county's in the in
the middle of their million-doll study that's been taking 20 years to do. So, they may have some recommendations. >> Yeah, I know they um they made me add a left turn lane on a similar roadway over in Edison recently. >> And any other questions?
We open to the public. Anybody want to ask any questions? Then we'll close to the public and uh I guess it's bring on your planner. >> All right. Bring it home with Mr. Kevin O'Brien. You want to present a
>> Oh, the aerial. Sure. testimony. You're about to give truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth to help you. God, >> I do. >> State your full name, spell your last name for the record, your credentials, and by whom you were employed. >> Kevin O'Brien, professional planner,
licensed by the state of New Jersey. My license is uh current and in good standing. I'm employed by Shamrock Enterprises, Madison House, Sweet B, Madison Avenue, Roll. >> We're okay with that. I'm I'm just surprised now that we don't have a
reserved seat for you somewhere. Anyway, >> all right. Thank you very much. >> I have a question. Um, Mr. O'Brien, did you provide a written report for what you're about to testify to? >> No, Mr. Shepard. I did not.
I I thought that um professionals were required to submit a report in order to be able to testify. >> That is not a requirement that I'm aware of. >> Okay. But the seem we seem to get one from from traffic all the time. But so
there's no requirement that that a professional provide a report as to what he's going to testify to. There's nothing to stop the board from requiring it. >> Weakens. >> Is your mic on?
>> Yes. >> I said the issue is there is nothing to stop the board from requiring it and there are other boards in the in the area who require planning reports amongst others at least 10 days in advance of the hearing.
>> I I certainly can't ask uh Mr. O'Brien to provide us with the report 10 days before he testifies since he's about to testify now. >> But I think that's something we should think about. >> We would need to put that in our
operating uh procedures, I assume. >> Yeah, we'd have to discuss it. I'm not even sure if um the other professionals I don't I'm not sure if that's addressed. I think it's just a course of how I think some of the other reports like the engineering, the site engineering, the traffic engineering,
those are more um a lot of their testimony is technical in nature and has to be more backed up with you know technical information. So I think that's why you know the storm water report to the degree that they're testifying to that that's something that obviously has
to be reviewed and vetted by staff you know to to you know and to advise the board so we could advise you on the you know the accuracy of their reports >> whereas I think planning testimony is >> a little bit different and sometimes you know to the degree that architects I
would think similarly provide even though they provide the architectural plans some of their opinions that they express are are are done through verbal testimony, not something that's written in the form of a report. >> And I think planning testimony is largely similar to that kind of
testimony as opposed to the more technical. I'll indicate to the board that the neighboring municipality here in the county own Hillsboro requires all of their app all of their applicants professionals to provide their reports 10 days in advance
including the planner to avoid the surprise planning testimony of what a surprise here is my opinion that I've never seen or anybody's ever reviewed. So I'm just letting the board indicate on that. Obviously not for Mr. or Brian this evening. But
>> yeah, I'm not opining. I'm just explaining I think the difference, you know, why I think the board has operated in this way. >> Okay. >> And if it's ever a a checklist item in the future is something we will certainly provide on future applications. >> We will comply. Yes. >> Mr. Bernstein, I was in uh Hillsboro
last week and I've never been asked to provide a report there. >> Then somebody didn't ask you for it because it's required at least by the plan. I can't talk for the zoning board. Planning board requires it. >> Okay. Yeah. zoning board. >> That's a separate issue. Plan requires them.
>> Certainly. >> All right. Thank you. Uh Mr. O'Brien, uh can you tell us uh a little bit about the site uh the surrounding area, the relief that we're seeking, and how it stacks up against the municipal land use law? >> Certainly. Uh we're here this evening for a D3 conditional use variance to
convert an existing vacant medical office building into a house of worship. There are pre-existing bulk variances that you've heard testimony about already for the buffer for the setbacks.
Those things are there, have been there. They're not being changed in any way. Uh we're also seeking preliminary and final site plan. A D3 use variance needs to be reviewed by the board. Um, and the burden of
proof is that we've got to show you that there are special reasons which are rooted in the basis of planning as shown in the municipal land use law and the goals. But as an inherently beneficial use, this is a religious house of worship. By statute, it's been shown to
be inherently beneficial by the legislature and its infinite wisdom. I think Brent Franklin told us that uh no person or their property was safe so long as the legislature is in session. So, but the legislature has made this
finding. Uh it's an inherently beneficial use. It's one that serves the needs of all citizens of New Jersey. We have to meet the positive criteria that's showing that the use is compatible with the master plan. Then we've got to meet the negative criteria that's showing that this application
will not have a negative impact upon the community or the township and that burden of proof is met through the seek balancing test which is one that is used for inherently beneficial uses. So in terms of the unique aspects of
this application which we've got to show you to uh set up the basis uh for the burden of proof um this is currently in the OP office professional use uh professional zone excuse me. It's got an interesting mix of uses one and two
family residences office uses professional uses mixeduse buildings. >> Wait wait wait. >> Yes sir. I want you to kind of explain that a little bit to me because it it's my understanding and also from my uh
visual view that the uh the the um um the uh one and two family houses are all along Gerard and that there are except for the couple of uh professional
uh uses that appear here. They're all on Eastern Avenue. So, there's no there's no there's no um professional or other kind of businesses along Gerard. >> Oh, there are none along Gerard. No,
>> no, I'm just saying that this is what the zone allows for. >> Oh, okay. >> The OP zone, office professional zone, >> right? Okay. allows single and two family residences along with off office professional uses and mixeduse buildings. Okay.
>> So, it's a combination of uses. And as we know, I don't know how far back you want to go, but let's just say the great recession of '08, a lot of economic forces are out there that have continued to today that are the deathnell for so
many small professional offices. and in the medical field directly. So many small medical practices are now infolded into larger practices in newer buildings. And these small offices,
there's still some, but there's not an awful lot. This building has been vacant for over 10 years. All the permitted office uses have a much greater intensity than what has been described in the operational and the traffic testimony this evening. The
office uses particularly a medical office use um for those of us uh who maybe frequent a doctor a little more little more than we did in our youth. Um there's a lot of people in these offices
and um parking and intensity is a problem. This use is extremely benign compared to those very very busy intense uses. Their peak times are in the evening and
on Sundays. The house of worship does do good deeds as shown in prior testimony. So let's talk about the special reasons that are shown in the purposes of the municipal land use law. Uh item a alpha to encourage municipal
action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state to promote the public health safety morals and general welfare welfare. F encourage the appropriate and efficient expenditure of public funds by the coordination of public development
with land use policies. G provide sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of uses. L provide a desirable visual environment. And lastly, M encourage coordination of the various public and private procedures shaping land
development to the more efficient use of the land. This application advances those purposes by providing an inherently beneficial house of worship that is much less intense that will take
a 10-year plus vacant property. And I don't know if anybody's gone by there or or seen it lately, but the uh the I don't know how many security signs are on this building. the big big big I it looks like a stallike 17 with the
do not approach and if you break in here you're on camera and all those other things. Church is not going to do that. It's going to look lived in. People are going to frequent it. It's going to be a much better environment for the community. The master plan does discuss
uh in the community facilities element uh public facilities uh such as these community services and amongst the goals are provide adequate community services and facilities to serve the needs of all current and future residents in the
township. Uh it talks about providing those adequate services to fit the needs of the township and its people. The negative impact is addressed by looking at the seek a balancing test where we identify the public interest at stake which case this
is an inherently beneficial house of worship and we identify the negative impacts it will have and then what reasonable conditions the board can put on this application. We don't see any negative impacts to the community. Um,
the board has through its professionals and through its questions this evening talked about a number of conditions that will make this plan a better one for the community and the township. the Cox reference book uh planning and zoning in New Jersey that all your
professionals use uh has this statement about a conditional use variance and it says that a conditional use variance need only justify the municipality's continued permission for a use not withstanding
the deviation. meaning that a conditional use has been allowed by the township. The use has been foreseen by the planning board and the governing body. So, it's a conditional use. It's one that's allowed in the zone provided we meet a number of conditions that are
listed in the ordinance here. We miss two of them. The existing buffer, the existing setbacks. I would conclude that based upon all the above and the testimony that you've heard this evening that this application can be granted without substantial
detriment to the public good and without substantial impairment of the zone plan and the zoning ordinance. I welcome your questions. Chairman, >> any questions? >> Yeah, I I have a couple. One of the uh
one of the things that's um that is in my opinion a problem here is the uh the size of the building and the um and the intensity of use albeit for
short periods of time. Um in um the traffic study uh the uh uh writer uh indicated that on Sunday from 5 to 7 there would be 80 attendees which is more than uh the
applicant is suggesting at uh at this uh hearing and I'm I'm a little troubled by uh the number of people that will be there even for this short period of time that will be then um they'll be going to
um uh down to from Gerard down to um >> thanks >> from Gerard uh down to Eastern Avenue and um I I see that as a as a problem. Uh I also have a great deal of
difficulty with the idea that uh the house uh the the the side setbacks and the rear setback and I I must tell you that when people refer to things as north and south I can't do it really but
um the the sides of the setbacks are really pretty short. uh we don't have the appropriate um uh buffering and the the applicant seems to be interested in uh in not
being uh required to comply with that and uh and I see the especially the people next door to them on Gerard and also the people um across the street on Gerard their life in their community is
going to be affected. by this. And I I don't I'm concerned about um I'm concerned about uh us allowing this to be put into this neighborhood. I I agree with you that there are a lot of people
going to the doctor. Uh but uh I don't see that as any kind of a reason to um allow this church to occupy this space. And I I have to say that I'm I'm kind of sad to be talking like this, but because
um uh everyone here uh delivered a very honest opinion and I it's hard to to speak um critically about this. I'll let Miss Dolan address that 80 number that you referred to.
>> I'll let Miss Dolan address that 80 number that you referred to and then we'll move on. >> Sure. Uh again referencing page three of the traffic and parking statement. Um Sunday from 5 to 7 with up to 80 attendees of approximately 20 families
arriving in 20 to 22 cars. So what what the church is saying is that it's more like four people per vehicle as opposed to the three per vehicle which is what we use on the ordinance level. And then Mr. Feliz tonight uh testified 60 to 70
people. So where that exact number comes in, I I can say that from the information that I heard this evening, the current um number of congregants is 60. So if there's a little bit of growth, maybe that gets them to to the 80. Um and if they were to get to that
level, then the testimony was that they would move to two services uh to accommodate any parking demands that were greater than the 20 to 22 cars for 80 people. See though, Miss Dolan, the the thing that I'm looking at is not,
you know, like like they say, if if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My comments are not really addressed to the cars, but to the fact that the facility itself is supposed to only have room for 64 people. And here
we are. We haven't even agreed to let this happen. And we're over that number. So I was looking at congregants and having a place to sit, not really the cars. >> Got it. >> So ju just to um repeat some of the
testimony of Mr. Fe, the church today only has 60 congregants. So if every single member of the church attended services, there would be a seat for every member. If the church grows beyond what it is right now, they will provide multiple services. So that if every
member of the church attends services on Sunday, there'll be a seat for every member. >> Except your witness then testified that 20 families come on Sundays. And when asked what 20 families indicated, it was 80 people. So
I'm just saying what the testimony was, not what >> I think it was 60 to 70. Well, there there's another recall concerned about with this because
>> once the parking lot's full with 23 cars >> way, >> there's no ability to park on the street. That's one issue. So, if there's a few extra cars for those existing
uh attendees, where do they go? Uh Yes, you can add add services, but that's that's reacting to something after there's already a problem. What's what's the tipping
point? I mean, the statement in the testimony was that they they would expect to grow and I would I would expect that to be the case. I mean, that's natural. There is no room for growth. Where where do you handle,
you know, if if the growth is gradual and all of a sudden they wake up and you're getting 30 cars coming, you know, when do you react? We can make conditions and everything, but these
kinds of conditions are not really enforcable from a township point of view. And on neither one of those streets has the ability to accommodate overflow parking. And that that would be a tremendous
imposition on both neighborhoods, you know, in that in that area. >> That that's a concern I have. Otherwise, um
I think everything I think they've done a lot of things to make the site adaptable to this. I think you could looking at the overhead pictures uh here. I think there's places in terms of the landscaping and buffering where you
might be able to supplement especially on the rear where the parking is. But I I have those concerns about the how fast they would be willing or to recognize how f how soon they're
recognizing that they need extra services and and what do you do if you get stuck and there is a time when you need to put other cars someplace? >> Well, you you know >> and the other my recommendation would be >> before before you answer Mr. Two of
those parking spaces are ADA handicapped. So in reality, and we're not talking 23, you're talking 21 eligible parking spaces because two can only be used by a certain class of drivers. So
in terms of the comments of the chair and vice chair, that you also have to take a look into. I don't know how many handicapped congregants there are. I don't know how many will come to services, but the parking spaces are 23 in total, including two handicap parking
spaces. That's just simply for the purposes of the the record. And under ADA, um, one ADA accessible space is required for 25 spaces in a parking lot. Two are being
provided because we believe that there's going to be a need for it. And in terms of the the uh number of services and the number of congregants, you know, I would probably recommend to my client right now that they bump it up to two services on Sunday to avoid the
exact scenario you're talking about. Uh aside from the uh detriment to the community. I think it would be a detriment to any individual who wants to go to services and is isn't able to um because they can't find a parking spot. So, it's probably wise for my my client
to bump up the number of services as soon immediately. >> I think that's a a reasonable offer. The the thing is you have to get people to to buy into going to it. I mean I mean it's maybe not something that it's
something maybe that you work into a little more gradually. I don't know if you can just say well maybe you can we're going to have two services Sunday. Pick one. But it seems like this is a pretty relatively small appearing to be
a pretty tight-knit congregation. You may need to discuss this, you know, and make sure you're getting people spread out because there there is no overflow. There's no there's no place um you know, otherwise
you're going to have people double parking in the parking lot. something happens and then and uh nobody can get out. >> Oh, I don't know what I don't know what the solution is on that part of it
because you know there is no space. >> Well, I think this this congregation is about to go through a transition anyway. They're not in this facility yet. So, I think in connection with moving facilities, it it would have to be a serious discussion and announcement to the congregation that they're adding a
service and and to to that point, the testimony was that they only provide one service in the evening, you know, on Sunday, and most people go go to services uh in the morning or midday. So, uh I don't think it would be a terrible burden on on this congregation
to to make that transition. maybe on the past serving. >> Well, but I think >> I should do two services a day instead of one. >> I agree with a lot of what you said, but the the serious discussion really has to
happen before we grant an approval or or whatever it is because after we do that, there's there's no turning back. uh you know if if that if that's a commitment that they're that the
church is willing to make off the cuff right now tonight I might think differently you know but uh to me that is a problem that's all I can I can't say it any differently
>> to a degree Mr. chairman, I don't know what the percentage is. Um, to a small degree, the parking will be self-p policing in that once the parking lot's full, there's nowhere else to go. >> And then the congregates are going to have to sort it out. But a wise
congregation, as Mr. Duke is saying, will anticipate this and not wait for the last space to be taken. >> Same applies to a The same, however, applies to a function in the basement. >> Yes. parking spaces aren't getting any bigger, >> right?
>> And the number of people coming to a function is equally, >> you know, even if you can control the number of services and even if you can indicate that no more that once I don't know how the congregation is going to be able to stand out in the parking lot and
say, "Okay, we're done. We've reached maximum parking space. everybody else has to go home or circle the neighborhood until somebody comes. I don't think you know this is not like for example a synagogue where we gave out a certain number of tickets in the
highly days and that's the number um the other issue becomes the use of the facility in the basement and the parking spaces don't and based upon the square footage and the though Mr. Healey did indicate it's not a variance per se. It
still requires 30 odd spaces and a 20 odd space parking lot. So, >> so Mr. Chairman, perhaps and Mr. Duca, you you you perhaps may have been heading in this direction. I mean, as you'd stated in the beginning, we only have five voting members.
>> Yes. >> And the board is obviously giving you a a number of things that they're thinking about. Mhm. >> So, you might want to suggest, you know, you know, that the board that you have an opportunity to, >> you know, listen to what the board's
saying, perhaps come back with some answers. >> And that that is our intention. Uh we are going to take your concerns uh into serious consideration, come up with some solutions rather than just promises on the record tonight. And >> uh we will present those to you um at a
a later date. >> Um Before we finish this, this this sort of became a morph from Mr. O'Brien's testimony. I think one, if there are any other members of the board who have any other concerns they want to address, and
two, I assume we're going to open it to the public for the purposes of the overall though I suspect the public here or the congregants. >> Um, so >> I I would like Mr. Brian to uh give some further comments on what he thinks about
the uh the der of uh uh um conifer trees around the uh the property, the size and the uh nature of the buffer. >> Any other board? >> Yeah, we're on the count. We're on the
calendar, but that's okay. Um, you've seen the aerial. There could certainly be some more um trees um to the adjoining commercial building uh to the side on Easton. As to the
residential on Gerard, there's a lot of trees there. I I think that perhaps between now whenever the next meeting is, our site engineer should take a look at that and see if any augmentation can be put in there. Okay, >> good answer.
>> Any other board >> questions? >> Anyone in the public like to ask the questions from for the planner? Then we'll close that part. So, at least we put that part out and then uh my
feeling is that you want to reschedu to a little later date and go over those things. I don't know if we have anything more that we can add to it tonight. >> Okay. So, you had indicated that you had
indicated that uh they may need to check with a couple people. Would they be able to do that in two weeks or no? I mean, are you looking to go to the next meeting which would be uh June 4th? >> If there if there's availability, >> you will have your answer by then. >> Yes.
>> Okay. So, then um I see your thing. >> Who's got to come back? So then >> what we'll say is that this will be this matter will be carried >> well before we carry it Christine the
board think that's sufficient time to get the answers you want >> oh they're the ones that have to get the answers so they think it's sufficient time that's fine only right that's what I do we want them the same night on June
4th >> why would we not want them on June 4th. >> Isn't that uh >> Oh, no, no, no. That's not That's not Ukrainian. That's uh that's we we moved them >> to code word >> to June 18. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, I'm I see what you're saying.
Yeah. >> All right. So, back to you, John. If you feel that your applicant can provide those answers that the board is requesting of them and Mr. O'Brien, if you feel you can give those answers in two weeks, then we'll carry this matter to June 4th at 7:30 p.m. here in this
building. Is that acceptable? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. If anything should happen because I'm making this announcement, if you can't get your answers, then I will carry it on June 4th. Um, and just so you all know for your records or for
your data for your uh scheduling, July 16th would probably be the next time. >> Okay? So, you know, if anything should happen with the congregation or you can't get all the answers, then let me know and I'll make an announcement and I'll carry it on the agenda to that further date.
>> Okay. Luca, any idea when Mr. O'Brien since we're going to commit him to something to do on Memorial Day weekend? >> Um, we'll have his answers because I'd like I think the board should like would like to see them in advance of the next meeting
and there is a holiday. So, I'm trying to >> I think that would be bloody unlikely, Mr. Bernstein, for a written report in two weeks, but I'll be more than happy to be there and testify. >> I'm >> unless it's a requirement of the board. >> It's not a requirement at the moment. I'm just asking the question. I think
the board would like to see something before they enter into a discussion versus hearing it for the first time on the night of June 4th. If unless the board obviously disagrees with me, which would be the first time, won't be the last time a client ever disagree with me.
Mr. Chairman, uh, whatever the >> moving toward wanting to have everything we can in advance. So, >> okay. So, what are we saying? We're not going Mr. O'Brien saying he will not have a report. So, are we carrying later
or what are we doing? >> Quite say that yet. Let's see what what we're required to do. >> Who makes the determination of what we're required to do? You, Mr. Thomas? I mean, I I understand Eric made the suggestion. Oh, but he has to pull Do I have to pull the board, Eric?
>> No, I I I I'm not suggesting we do this 10 days in advance. I think the question becomes the board has asked for a handful of questions. The board would like to see the information, I believe, in advance of June the 4th. >> So, understand that there's a rumor
there's a holiday weekend coming up and Mr. O'Brien, no one's suggesting he has to have a 10day Vince. He'll never make it. Uh the issue is whether or not he can get it in more than when he sits down at the table at 7:30 on the night of the June 4th is when the board first
hears his pearls of wisdom. I think that's the the suggestion here. And the other part is to get your people together enough time in the same situation. So, no, I'm not suggesting that the magic 10 days that the law actually requires, forget the planners
testimony, uh, but some time frame that meets everybody's desire. And by the way, right now we don't have a corn. >> So, so let me make a perhaps a suggestion. Christine sends the uh agenda out, agenda packet out typically the Thursday or Friday before the
meeting. That would put it to >> 29th. >> The 29th. So, You don't have any other work, Mr. O'Brien? >> No. None whatsoever. Uh, Mr. Healey. In fact, I'm retired in Florida with Mr. Lambert.
>> Don't you wish. >> And commuting back and forth with him as well, I hope. Uh, >> um, I'll make every endeavor for the 29th, but if I cannot meet that, um, Christine, if it's to you a few days
before, do you have the capacity to send it out to the board? >> I do have that capacity. >> You're a wonderful secretary. Thank you. >> Thank you. But what I was saying, that's exactly what I was saying to John. If something should happen that we can't, then we just carry it. I don't want to put undue pressure on anybody, not your
congregation, not the board. This is coming up tonight. This is something new for all of us. So, if you can't get to it, then you can't get to it. And I just make an announcement and put it on the agenda and it's carried to the next time. That's all. >> Yep. And I'll be in touch with you about that. >> Right. I don't see any reason we can't
get the answers in two weeks because these are pretty standard questions. >> Okay. >> Well, >> but I will let Mr. Tuca carry that ball the appropriate time. >> The board would have to make a motion to carry and we'd ask the congregation to extend the time of decision rule time of
decision to July 30th. >> Yes, that's not a problem. >> There's only one small problem. >> We don't have a quorum. Uh, you've got four. I got four of nine member board. I lost number five. >> It's a seven. Seven member board.
>> Five. So, they're fine. >> Yeah, you got four. That's a quorum for seven. >> He left. Okay. >> Confirming. >> Wait, he went to the bathroom. He's right there. >> As I said, >> can I can I just ask ask the board? Um, >> he's back. >> Is other than Mr. O'Brien, was there any
other witness tonight that you felt like you needed additional information from? Well, any Mr. O'Brien is going to consult with Mr. Saddowski about the the landscaping issue. I don't know who's going to be the >> person who wins the prize on that one
ultimately, but >> he was going to invite me to the pool this weekend, but you know, it's already washed out. But we'll we'll sort it out. U >> I'm assuming somebody's going to >> I don't think ar I don't think we need architecture or or traffic again
>> because obviously a representative from the church. Yes. >> And we're set. >> All right. This would be Mr. Chairman a motion to continue uh application ZB
26 00001. to Thursday, June 4th, 2026 at 7:30 p.m. or as soon thereafter as the matter may be erred with the extension of the time of decision to July 31st, 2026.
>> All right, the motion's been made is our second. >> No, the motion's not been made. Nobody I can't make. >> That's that's my motion. >> I'll second it. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. Motion carried. carry the June 4th.
>> Thank you very much. >> Okay, >> Mr. Chairman, can we take a couple of minute break while you >> I am not >> so I can go out and get >> We'll adjourn for a few minutes before we >> before you turn Mr. Simon's application >> back to order and
>> move along. >> Yes. Did you did you read? >> Next would be Dream on Me Industries ZBA 260 O2 C variance in which the applicant seeking a number of sign variances
associated with various signs installed on site at 45 Veronica Avenue Somerset block 88.02 lot 71.01 in the B1 zone. >> Okay. >> Uh Mr. Chairman, members of the board, uh, board professionals, good evening.
Uh, my name is Rob Simon. I'm an attorney with Herald Law. It's good to be back here in Franklin Township. Uh, we're here for, as stated by the chair, a sign application by Dream onMe Industries. Uh, and Dream onMe is a New Jersey based baby furniture and
equipment retailer. Uh, cribs, strollers, things things of that nature. Um, we're talking about a property that contains a little over 48 acres. It's currently developed with a warehouse/off building, 425,000
in change square ft in the township's BI zone. Uh the closest uh building to Veronica Avenue is a little short of 700 ft away. Um the applicant as stated by
the chair seeks several sign variances in accordance with um or due to various signs that were installed unfortunately on the site by a sign contractor uh without permits which I will tell you
upfront completely contrary to what the sign contractor represented to the operator when he signed on to to do this job. So, we're here and you know I'm as Mr. Bernstein knows I'm a board attorney in a number of communities and I tell my
boards in these kinds of cases that the applicant us in this case is seeking permission and they're essentially seeking forgiveness. And I say to these boards and I will say to you because it's appropriate here
that the one benefit that you can glean from these kind of applications is that unlike the applications that you typically see every single month where the engineer comes in and provides elevations, floor plans, the uh AR the
um civil engineer might provide some renderings of what it's going to potentially look like Here we have photographs as to what it does look like. And for good or bad, it provides a board the opportunity to see in real
time what the quote unquote proposed project is going to look like. And I tell the boards it's if if anything, it allows you to maybe maybe better assess the proofs that are being presented by by the witness. So, what we're talking
about tonight are sign application for um one large build uh building mounted sign on the northerly side of the property for the dream on me tenant. A >> wait, can you I need you to >> I'm sorry. Y I heard you. I heard you
the last time. >> Yeah, the I I'm not so good with the north and south stuff. >> Okay. >> I know. Is it the north side? Would that be the side that faces uh Route 27? >> Veronica Avenue. Yes. >> Do you have a picture?
>> We we will I'm going to get into this with with with the engineer and I apologize for not >> This is see when you go in the driveway. >> Yes. Correct. And then there's a shipping receiving sign on on the rear of the building. So, we're seeking
various forms of variance relief due to the number of signs because you're only allowed to have one sign for the tenant. Um, and we're also seeking uh uh signage variance for the size of the sign in terms of the vertical height of the sign that we'll get into through the
testimony as well as we have a number of directional signs that are throughout the the the campus that we need. We 14 give or take signs. um that ex not only exceed the the um the size but also uh
potentially the number. So with that we seek bulk variance relief under 40 55D-7 C1 or two. Um we have um a number of uh witnesses. We have Matt Shrow from Dynamic Engineering, the civil engineer
on the project. We also have McKinley Mertz from MJ Planning LLP who's our professional planner on the project. We also have Steve Cactton behind me, um, a representative of the applicant if there's any questions for the applicant. So, with that, like to have Mr. Sheros,
uh, sworn in, please. >> I think before we get before we get to that, I think >> we're trying with a Miss Woodberry is out in her out from where she normally is. >> I I I did notice that. >> I'm assuming there's
>> It just flipped. So, it >> Let me see. I got another one. Um, >> that's the view of the property, Rob. >> We had an artist rendering. Yes. >> This has worked here before.
It just flipped again. >> Some Yeah. Not looking around here. >> Make sure you took all the mojo away. >> Yeah, but I don't have your Do you have the plans? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's HDMI.
>> No, it's HDMI. >> Oh, sorry. I did the same thing. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Apparently some apparently some people just don't have it tonight, >> you know. >> All right. Testimony you're about to
give is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth. So help you, God. >> Yes. >> State your full name. Spell your last name for the record by whom you're employed and your credentials, please. Sir, >> Matthew Sharrow, employed S H A R O, employed by dynamic engineering. Uh, my
credentials, I've been testifying in front of boards for about 10 years now. I've had my PE license since 2016. I have a bachelor of science in civil engineering and I've testified in front of your planning board multiple times. I don't know that I've ever been here. Um, but I've testified in front of planning
and zoning boards throughout New Jersey. Go ahead. Thank you. >> Okay. So, um, so Mr. Sher, you're familiar with the project and the subject >> mark this A1. >> Yeah. Oh, so, uh, Mr. Sher, you're familiar with the project and the
property in the surrounding neighborhood. Correct. >> Correct. >> So, we have, um, before the board right now a dynamic engineering plan. If you can please identify, uh, the plan and I think we should, as per Mr. Bernstein, we should mark this as A1. But I first
would like you to identify it based on the title block on the bottom right hand corner. >> The mic a little closer to you, Mr. Shar. >> So this is titled aerial map prepared by dynamic engineering. It's actually sheet two of the site plan set that was submitted as part of the application.
It's dated 8224 last revised 330 2026. >> Thank you. >> So what you can see in the center of the screen is the building in question. This is the 425,250 foot building. Uh for reference to the
north of the page is Veronica Avenue uh running in a left right direction across the top part of the page and at the bottom bottom of the page is Bennett's Lane. Uh surrounding uses include the uh uh warehouse industrial office type
buildings along uh Veronica Lane uh to the north and then to the east or to the right side of the page is an existing uh warehouse building and some wooded area. To the south is I apologize if I pronounce this wrong, Chakowski
uh farms. Uh you can see the the farmland here with uh along Bennett's Lane and then to the east or or to the west to the left side of the plane the page is another wooded space. >> And with regard to the subject property, can you confirm in terms of the acreage
and the size of the uh warehouse office? >> The acreage is 48 of the the acreage of the property itself is 48.456 456 acres and the building size is 4,250,000 425,250
square foot of building space. >> Okay. >> Um just for for everybody to realize the this this is sort of a flag lot. There's a long driveway about 600 ft in from uh Veronica uh Veronica Avenue. >> So your cursor
you've said Veronica Lane a couple times. >> Sorry. Veronica. >> Is that incorrect? Yeah, that's ver it's Veronica Avenue. >> Okay. Yeah, Veronica Avenue. >> I'm getting Veronica Avenue and Bennett's Lane mixed up. So, Veronica Avenue. Uh driveway comes off Veronica Avenue about 600 ft to the first
intersection uh to the the drive aisle that wraps around the building and to the parking stalls that are in front of the building. >> Okay. So, um Mr. Sher, can you just identify in your cursor on on A1 where Veronica Avenue is just so everyone can
be oriented? Veronica Avenue is up along I would say the the the top of the page here. >> Yep. Good. >> All right. >> And with regard to um this application
and as part of your submission, you provided the board with uh various photographs of the signage that is at issue here. Correct. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Can you >> like to see that? >> Yes, please. So that would be
>> we'll mark this as A2. >> Th this is this is part of the existing site plan that was submitted. >> You still want to mark it. Okay. >> So this is sorry I'll just identify it for everybody. This is uh exhibit A2 construction details. It's sheet four of
the site plan set that was submitted as part of the application. What this shows is the >> and and this um I'm sorry Mr. Sure. In terms of the revision date, same revision date. >> Same revision date 2026. Thank you. >> So, original plans were, >> sorry if I written down here, uh 8:22
2024, last revised 3:30 2026. What this shows is it shows uh the the 16 uh images of the signs that are being proposed or installed on the site today as well as a detail for a breakaway um
breakaway signpost that I'll get into in a little bit as part of the comments from your um your letters. Okay. And and with regard to um A2 originally as part of the application package, bless you.
Um there was variance relief uh requested in connection with certain bye-bye baby signs. >> Correct. >> That is correct. So uh a majority of these these signs that are on this page had two signs. Uh one for bye-bye baby
and one for uh dream on me. However, the bye-bye baby tenant is no longer >> Bye-bye. >> They went bye-bye. >> Yes. And because bye-bye baby went bye-bye. Um those signs were all removed. Correct. >> That is correct.
>> Are you going to make each of those little signs big so we can actually see them? >> I can zoom in if you'd like. Yeah. So what what we're going to do um is if you can start with the first photograph and just identify um first of all the identification number for the photograph
and what it depicts. >> Sure. >> And this is again all on A2. This is a what I'm going to call photo board of 16 photos. >> These are all existing signs. Mr.
These are all signs that that are that are currently up at the property. Yes. >> So, I can go I can go through each one. I can flip back to the site plan sheet so you would know where they are on the site if you would like. Uh but I can I can start with this and try to give you a direction as to where this is. So,
this is the directional sign one or I can work the opposite way. I can work from the outside of the site into the site and around the site in an orderly manner. It's up to you guys. Um doesn't bother me which way we do it. So this is I'll just I can just go. >> I would re I would recommend I think for
clarity of the board and the public that we first go through all the photographs and then to the extent that there are questions or you might want to identify where on the on the plan there these particular signs are located. We can do that after.
>> So this is uh directional sign number one. It's 7.7 7.5 square ft in size. Uh it has dream on me on the top and the shipping receiving with a right arrow. This is to direct um trucks for two shipping and receiving uh from the main
drive aisle between the building and V um Veronica Veronica Avenue. Okay, moving on to the next one. This is an a directional sign number two 7.5 square ft. It's an exit sign. This is
near the main intersection as you come off Veronica Avenue uh to let trucks and vehicles exiting the property from the loading zone uh towards Veronica Avenue. This is directional sign number three.
This is 12.7 ft. That's the combination of both signs here. Uh the top sign is basically, you know, a shift in the lane sign and the bottom sign is a sign that has dream on me and shipping and receiving in the left direction. This is as you come down that long driveway from
Veronica Avenue uh to that shipping and receiving knows to make a left. This is a similar sign, directional sign uh for 7.5 ft. This is a dream on me sign with the shipping and receiving arrow to the left. This is in the center
median of the access driveway into the site. So, this is prior to getting to that um the parking area and the uh where the you know where that actual intersection is. It's kind of giving everybody a heads up that the shipping and the receiving is to the left. And so before you go on from there, that that
photo is is taken from approximately without you flipping around approximately where in relation to the building and and the signage. >> So it's a it's probably 150 to 200 feet off, you know, from this from the
building. >> Okay. So So the the photo was not taken from Veronica Avenue. >> No. No. There's another photo of a sign closer to Veronica Avenue that that you'll see in in a second. >> Okay, go ahead. Thanks. >> Um,
so I apologize why I move this to the next signage. >> All right, s directional sign number five. This is 125 square ft. This is Dream on Me with the main office with an angled arrow towards for um passenger vehicles to make the
right and then a no right turn sign with the with the no right turn angle with the circle and the slash through it for trucks. Uh they don't want trucks making that uh right into the more uh I'll say pedestrian vehicles or uh typical vehicles for the office use uh making
that right into that parking lot. They want all the trucks to make the left. Next sign is a it's as you come around um the that turn towards the offices uh there's a dream on me no truck sign uh on the right side of the drive aisle and
it is sign sign number six 7.5 square feet in size. >> What's what's the what's the lettering at the bottom? >> Uh that's a good question. Let me zoom in. Oh no trucks beyond this point. All right. So, this is the same same
exact sign. This is sign number seven. 7 7.5 square feet. This is just on the other side of that that that driveway. So, they're tandem signs, one on each side of the driveway. >> And again, to Mr. Bernstein's question, no trucks beyond this point on the
bottom and then Dream on Me on the top. >> Correct. Yep. Identical to the previous sign. This is a private park, private property, no trespassing sign. This is located as you um come into the site and enter that that main intersection off
the driveway. >> Is there a similar sign on Veronica? >> Yes, which we'll get to in a second. Um this is a directional sign. Uh sign number 12, 7.5 ft. This is letting uh
cars know to exit to the uh left as they leave the um the loading area. Okay, only a few more here. Zoom back in. So, this is the >> Can you Can you just uh make that just a
little bit Yeah. wider just so we can see what number we're talking about? >> Yep. Oh, where'd it go? There it is. So, this is directional sign number nine. This is nine square feet. This is the private property. No trespassing. Violators will be
prosecuted. This is uh towards the front entry off of Veronica Avenue. So, this is the first sign you'll see when you come into the site. And you can notice the building in the background. >> And you can sort of see a little bit the the dream on me right there.
>> You can sort of see the business sign that's on the building. that I'll get to in a second. >> Right now, um, uh, is this is this the essentially the driveway off of Veronica Avenue that we're on here? >> Yeah, you're you're about I would say 40
ft in 40 to 50 ft in from Veronica Avenue. >> Okay. >> Okay. Now, we're up to uh directional sign number 10. >> Yep. So, um, I'm going to do 10 and 11 at the same time. So, this is the same exact sign. It's uh 7.5 square feet in
size. Dream on me on the top. No trucks beyond this point. This is at the opposite the the far end of where the trucks enter the loading zone. So the the trucks enter the loading zone on the right side of the building. This is at the left side of the loading zone. So to let trucks know to not go through that
parking area um where the offices are. This one signs on one side of the drive aisle. The other sign's on the other side of the drive aisle. But um and further that as we're going through these um each sign is identify
and it's identified with its size. >> Correct. >> Okay. Thank you. This is a directional sign as you uh come around the side of the building towards the loading zone. Dream on me shipping and receiving with the right arrow. Uh directional sign number 12 and
that's 7 7.5 square ft. All right, one more row. >> You have 13 directional signs. >> 14. >> Oh, good. >> This is this is another exit sign to as
as cars are leaving um the loading zone. It's a left arrow. It's 7 7.5 foot. This is for this is sign 14. So, this is the last of the directional signs. This is to direct uh the loading vehicles and as after they unload or load um to go
towards the driveway to Veronic Avenue. Um this is one of the wall-mounted signs. This is 123.7 ft. This is on the back of the building. Um this is above the shipping and receiving door. It
states dream on me shipping and receiving office with two arrows straight down. Um, this is located at the center of the building in the in the loading area. >> I'm not doing well with the back of the building. What does that mean? Does that mean it's it's facing Veronica? It's
facing Route 27 or is it facing the woods? >> It's facing the woods. It's the I'll I'll call and I can go back if you'd like. >> No. >> No. It's It's facing the farm to the It's facing the farm. Okay. And Bennett's laying on the the back side of the property.
>> Good. And then this is the main sign, business sign, dreamy with the >> Well, let's identify. It says wall-mounted sign. >> Yep. >> Two. >> Yep. Wall-mounted sign two. 348.7 ft. >> 348.
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um, so that's that's on this on the the front of the warehouse. That's the sign you can see from a couple of the images in the background from Veronica Lane and from other uh images looking into the
site from the drive aisle from Veronica Avenue. So that's that's the 16 signs in questions tonight. Okay. So, you have two big signs and you have 14 little signs, a number of which say,
"Dream on me." And um the two big ones are pretty big. Um Okay. I I kind of got it. >> Okay. >> Wait, which side Which way does this This one faces Veronica.
>> Correct. This one faces Veronica. And if you give me a second, I can find that the one picture of the I don't want to move around too fast. >> The the photo from Veronica Avenue. >> That's number nine.
>> Was it number nine? There you go. So >> So this is the one that's about 40 to 50 feet from uh Veronica Avenue. That's the Dream on Me sign in the back, >> which you can't hardly read because of
the foliage. Right. Correct. >> Well, you can read the the dream on me part from this angle. and the board's TRC issued a memo uh dated May 19th, 2026
um that had a comment regarding uh all ground mounted signage to be installed on a breakaway post and that the sign shall be mounted 7 ft above grade. Um and that a number of the directional signs do not appear to meet the
standard. And the comment was any signs not installed consistent with that standard should be reinstalled consistent with that standard. Um I'm paraphrasing you the applicant has no issue with that. Correct. >> Correct. That's so the breakaway post as
you see on a lot of the stop signs and other you know traffic signs. It basically has a a base that sticks out of the ground and then the rest of the post is bolted to it. And that's so when if if a vehicle or something hits it, it breaks away as opposed to bending the
sign or in, you know, impacting the car or vehicle more than it should. Um, and those signs will be reinstalled with those that breakaway format um to your town standard. And then we will raise the signs up um to the M MUTCD standard
of 7 foot to the the bottom of the sign. So just for for for reference that's that's basically around that's like a rural urban um requirement uh for pedestrians sidewalks people walking around sidewalks. So uh but in this area we don't really have the sidewalks or
pedestrians walking around but we will still raise them to 7 ft. Okay. and the environmental commission issued uh a memo um providing comments on the application. And I I believe the only one that we need to uh talk about
is a question that was raised as to whether any of the signage whether it's the wall-mounted signage or the um uh directional signage is illuminated. It >> it is not illuminated illuminated. Um,
are there any um particular signs that you want to show the board where they're actually located on on the site or would you rather just ask the board? >> Yeah, if the board wants to know, I have a site plan here. I have the aerial here. So, if there's any particular one
of these signs one through um 14 that you would like to see where they're actually located, um we can I can show you on on the plan. It's up it's it's up to you. It's your call. >> So, Mr. Chairman, I just have a few questions related to the directional signs and and I think these are
appropriately directed to the engineer. So, um I'm sure the the planner can can opine as well. So, uh two of the variances, one is the size of directional signs that the limit is three square feet and the sign these
signs range from 7 and 12 to 9 square ft. Is there any reason from in your opinion why these signs need to be larger than permitted? >> So in my opinion um the the actual length of the driveways and where these
these signs are directing uh larger vehicles to go to. Yes, I believe that this the size of these signs are appropriate and also um to separate the truck traffic from the office traffic. I believe those signs are are important for safe circulation around the around
the property. And then uh not to mention, it's not shown in these pictures, but recently um there are fire lane no stopping or no parking signs located every 50 ft along all the curb lines on this property. So it's it would
be important for these signs to be larger than those signs to signify that these are directional signs. Otherwise, they will blend in with those fire lane, no parking signs that are that are along the curb every 50 ft. >> And I'm sorry, Mr. Hill, let me interrupt this for one second. I I
neglected to to ask you um when you were qualified, Mr. Shar, you have visited the site, correct? >> I did. >> Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry. >> Thank you. Um All right. And then the other one is, and I'll preface this by an explanation for the requirement. So, our ordinance says that directional
signs, well, first of all, it recognizes the need for directional signs. If it's a retail environment, for example, you know, may say customer parking, it may say drive-thru, you know, so there is a need sometimes to direct um the motoring public to different areas of the site. But what but the ordinance says you
can't have corporate logos. And I think the reason for that is, you know, you could have a situation where, let's say it's McDonald's, you know, and they put up 20 directional signs throughout their site and they use that kind of as a loophole to just add more signage throughout their site and that's not
really necessary for the directional purpose of of of the directional signs. So I get I wanted to explain the reason for the restriction for corporate logos. A lot of these signs have the Dream on Me corporate logo on it. Is there any
reason from an engineering perspective why that has to why that needs to be there? >> So, um, two reasons. First, there was two uses on this property in the warehouse. There was the by the I forget where he went out of business. Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye baby.
>> Bye-bye baby. And then the the dream on me. So, there was m there was multiple uses. So, we want to direct the people to the right uses in the right um areas. And then there's also a secondary building um beyond this building and I can go back to the aerial to show you.
It was under construction in the aerial um but that will be helpful as well um to signify where you are on the property. Um I apologize it's taking a little So, this building has access through the
driveway and up to Veronica Avenue. >> When you say ju just for the record, when you say this building, you're talking about a a building immediately to the east or to the right of the subject building, correct? >> Correct. Yes. >> Okay. Um, okay. Two more related
questions. The the number of directional signs, and I know one of the board members had had made started to make a comment about the number Um there is no restriction on the number of directional signs. Um but again the fact that that there are more
than 10 signs you know a lot of those signs are are need need these variances. So is there do you have an opinion on the need for this number of signs? Could could a lower number of directional signs serve the same directional
purpose? I I I believe that this number is appropriate based on the length of the building and the size of the property. So, as you come in to that that drive the drive aisle off Veronica Avenue, you you want to see ahead of time, you know, which way you plan to go
and then as you get up to this uh a majority of the signs are in this main intersection area only because there is multiple ways to go. You can go straight, you can go right, you can go left, you can exit. Um the no trespassing signs are important for this type of use uh warehouse use. So you want to have those t typical you know
signs in this m main intersection area and that's where a lot of them are located. Um and then there's you know there's the other ones that are you know helping people exit the site as they leave the loading zones um at at each corner. And then there's the the the truck do not enter signs, which you really want to be visible so trucks
don't get into a situation where they can't back out or they're intermingling with more passenger vehicles. So yes, I do believe that the signs are appropriately placed on this property. >> Okay, then last question. So the big white warehouse that we're looking at
right there on that exhibit, that that's where this tenant is. And then there's there there's tenant space in that building for that's where the bye-bye baby was. >> Correct. >> The Bye-Bye Baby and the and the Dream on Me were both in this building.
>> In the in this building. Yes. And then there's another in this this exhibit. There's what looks like a pad site. That's an additional warehouse. >> This in this aerial. It's under construction, but it's it's built now. Yes. >> Okay. And then you may not the board may not be aware of this. There was an
application before the planning board for two additional warehouses. They're going to share the same access drive. >> Okay. >> So, my question is, >> is there going to be a need for it looks like some of this signage has
been proposed just for this in a way just for this one one tenant. Is there going to be a need for additional directional signage for what's going to be a total of four warehouses sharing the same site? And if the additional those additional
warehouses come in, could the could the signage that's been proposed and put been put in place, frankly, cause some confusion? >> I I can't plan on that cuz I don't know what the other warehouses are going to are looking like or what >> the other tenants. >> No, understood. But I don't I don't know
where they're going to, you know, I don't know where they're going to be located in here and and how, you know, >> for for example, if if they're to the left of the property. >> No trucks. >> Let me explain. Let me explain. They're going to share the main act the same access off of Veronica and then to the
degree there that there's that road that goes to the north or to the, you know, above. Yes. They're going to share that as an access road and then they're basically off the map to the right >> over here. the two two you know smaller warehouse two additional smaller
warehouses beyond that treat area. So again there's going to be a total of four warehouses sharing that access drive. I don't I don't I can't because I I don't know. But I will say that again all of the a majority of the signs are
in this this intersection. Right. So some of these >> the intersection in other words as as you're >> going onto the site from Veronica Avenue and you're reaching the building. >> Correct. >> Um and those signs, you know, tell where
shipping and receiving goes. That sign may be just enough for those trucks to run along the front of the building main access drive to those other warehouses. I I again I don't know that plan. I don't know what's going in there. I don't know what they're what they're doing in there. Um, if you were go to go to the left, obviously those warehouses
aren't there. So, you would want to keep those those two no truck area, no truck turning signs, you'd want there. Um, all the ones in in the again intersection from the driveway off Veronica Avenue to the main portion and the main drive aisle of the of the use, you want those
in there at that intersection to direct cars in the way to go. What goes what happens beyond this shipping and receiving may sign to this loading zone. Maybe they do have another shipping and receiving sign of their own to get them
off that drive aisle to their loading area. I'm not sure, but this is this is appropriate for this use at this time. >> Okay. And and I think that's a fair answer. And you know, you know, in fairness, the the question just occurred to me just now. Um so I put you on the
spot with that question. Yes. What what what what I would say is, you know, if the board was in if the board was inclined to grant these variances, what I would suggest is perhaps some language basically saying that, you know, notwithstanding what the board may
approve in this resolution, if additional tenants come onto this site that need additional directional signage, we'll have to re-evaluate what's appropriate for the site as a whole. um something >> we would 100% agree with that because
that's what I mean typically when you have one access one driveway access to multiple buildings and the first one comes in and then the second one comes in you know typically from putting on a municipal hat for a second um we always have a re-evaluation you know because
safety is the the primary concern here to make sure that there's no conflicting movements and and there's no conflicting signage so certainly we would agree with that re-evaluation Okay. >> In the future. >> Thank you. >> Um, >> any other um questions? I don't think I
have any other further questions from Mr. Shar unless the board would like again for um him to identify particular location of a sign that we went over on a particular photograph. Otherwise, yeah, >> I guess my question is we talked about
the what we're calling directional signs, right? >> Well, we have two really huge supposed to be 100 square ft. These signs are almost four times as big. They're 375
square ft. Why do we need signs that are that big? who's going to be going to this warehouse besides truck drivers either either picking up or dropping off. >> So, so, so again, we're going to have a professional planner answer all those
questions, but from an engineering perspective is a fair question. So, Mr. Sherro, >> engineering perspective, um, the visibility of this this building, the building's close to 700 ft from Veronica Avenue. So, that's that's the first one on on that main building. And proportionally, this this is a long
taller building. So, proportionally, you want a sign that is proportional in aesthetic for this that particular portion of the building as you drive in. There's no other signage on it. It's it's that front sign. Um, and that's that's really their only ID sign as you come into the build. As you come in,
>> front sign and a back sign. >> Well, and I'm going to get to the back, the second back sign. So, the second back sign is for shipping and receiving. And I will show on the screen. It's located at about the center of the building, right at the rear of the building, the bottom side of the page in
the loading zone, right? So, as you come around here, it's a shipping and receiving office building. So, as you come around here, a truck is going to want to see that building. So, this is a very long distance from the corner as they come around this where that
receiving. So, it's a visibility. >> So, let's just slow down for a second. So, so right now you were showing your cursor on the the bottom left side or let's say the southeast side of the building and you're trying to demonstrate that as you're coming around. Go ahead. >> So, as the trucks come around the side
of the building to the loading zone, they have to see from here to the center of the building for that shipping and receiving office. That's why that sign is is larger on the back of the building for that visibility for that truck truck to be able to come in and see that.
>> That doesn't I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense to me. Uh uh because your cursor and we again we're getting into these uh north south uh back and front. I'm sorry. And >> they're killing me. So >> I don't want to kill you.
>> We're on the we're on the the right side. There you go. There's the cursor. Now, what you're saying now, where's the where's that sign going to go? The sign's going to go in the middle of that cuz that's all the bays down at the bottom of the building there. Right. >> Correct. Correct.
>> Okay. So, you're going to put the sign there. He's going to come around the corner. He's not going to see that sign. >> As he drive I I saw today as I drove down this I was wondering where it was, too. As I drove down it, I could see it amongst all the trucks parked there. >> I can comment actually on on the large
sign that's there on the building. I think right next to it there's like a university radiology and twice when I've had to go there GPS says turn and I almost turned into dream on me and I was very glad there was a large sign that you know that shows you this is not where you have to go. So if it's that
far away >> you kind of need the large sign >> okay so if there's no further questions from Mr. Sure. At this time, we'd like to call our professional planner that will any other question. >> We'll go through a token open to the public.
>> Open to the public. Anyone >> have any questions? >> Shame on shame on me. >> No, they're all closed. >> Thank you very much. >> And you have your computer. >> Yes. We're all ready to roll. >> Yes. Have her sworn
>> shepherd 857. >> We're flashing. >> I I know. I'll just say for the record. Yay. >> Um it was four at the half and 15 after that. >> Yeah. Um, so we can have her sworn,
please. >> The testimony you're about to give is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I help you God. >> It is. Yes. >> State your full name. Spell your last name for the record, your credentials, and by whom you are employed. >> Sure. McKenley Mertz. Last name is Mert
TZ. I'm a partner uh and co-founder of MJ Planning LLP. Our address is 34 Memorial Parkway in Atlantic Highlands. Uh, I have a master's of city and regional planning from Ruckers. I hold the national AICP certification as well
as New Jersey's professional planning license. My license is current. I just renewed it a month ago. It is in good standing. >> Oh, that's fine. >> Okay. And uh um uh Miss Merch, you're familiar with the application, the property, and the surrounding neighborhood, correct? And and you've been to the site, correct?
>> I have. Yes. Okay. >> On my way here today, I >> All right. So um maybe just first provide an overview of the project from professional planning perspective. Then we can get into the various variances. >> Sure. I think um our engineer Mr. Cheryl gave a really good overview. We have the
uh aerial in front of us here. Uh just real quickly we are to the top of the page here. You can see the neighborhood context that we are within. Uh all of these buildings that my cursor is circulating around front on Veronica Avenue, they are all light industrial
warehouse type spaces. Uh small office accessory. It looks like all of them have uh loading docks, etc. We, as was indicated previously, have this flag lot entrance onto Veronica Avenue and sit behind a significant number of those uh
of those other uh smaller warehouses. Uh so we are usewise very consistent with the area but we are unique in the fact that we are behind everybody and the building does not have really any frontage to uh the board member's previous comments. When I visited I was nervous I was turning into the wrong
property at first until I saw the dream on me sign straight ahead at the end of the driveway. Um I'm going to run through our list of variances. We've we've touched on a few of them but just so it's clear. Uh the first one being the uh code permits a maximum sign area
of 100 ft for a single tenant uh for uh wall signs. We have two proposed wall signs. The large dream on me sign again that's at the the base of that uh long driveway is 348.7 square ft. The shipping and receiving
sign at the rear here where my mouse is circulating is 123.7 ft. So combined it's about 472 square ft. Uh second, a maximum of one wall sign per tenant is permitted. Again, we have two. Uh the vertical dimension of wall
signs is permitted to be uh 2 feet. And I can tell you on a building that is 42 feet high and I'm not sure how long it is, but this dimension from here to here is 700 ft. So we're over 14. >> When you say the dimension from here to here, you're talking about from Veronica Avenue to the building
>> to the building is uh 692 feet. So we are the length of this building here is over uh 1,400 feet in length. Uh so two >> wait what was that you just said? >> The length of our building is o is over 1400 ft in length. >> Okay.
>> So a twoft tall identification wall sign would be very inadequate again and we're 42 feet in height. It would be very inadequate for either of these two signs. >> Inadequate in what way? >> I'll get into the proofs in a little bit but um >> No, come on. I want you to tell me now. But generally generally if you're
looking at 2 feet which is roughly about this you are not going to see that sign until you are standing underneath it looking up at it. So for truck traffic and car traffic it is not big enough to help direct you until you are right at that sign. >> Okay.
>> Uh the fourth variance were required. Uh again this is was talked about a little bit previously but the code prohibits the use of corporate logos uh on identification and directional signs. And as was testified to and you saw in the photos, all of the directional signs say dream on me with the exception of the exit signs which simply point
towards the exit. >> Also, the no trespassing signs didn't show the the logo on them, but the man with the red pen in his mouth shaking said yes. Does that mean I'm right or wrong? >> Okay. >> It means you're correct. Yes. I'm sorry.
I didn't know who the red pen man was. >> Um, we also require a variance. There's a the directional signs uh cannot exceed 3 square feet as was discussed previously and our signs vary from 7.5 to 12.7
square ft. The ones that are 12.7 square feet are those combination signs where you have the directional sign uh for dream on me specifically and then the ones that tell you to reroute around the median. Uh finally, this one was not called out in the TRC memo, but we did cite it just
uh to be conservative to make sure we covered all grounds. There is another requirement that signs displayed for direction of the public uh the total sign area cannot exceed five square feet. And again, all of our signs exceed that five square feet. >> When you say all of our signs, you're talking about the directional signs.
>> Correct. Thank you. >> So, I'll go into all of our very specific proofs and uh we'll be happy to answer any of your questions. Uh this board being the zoning board is well aware of the C variance proofs that we have to prove to you. The first one uh
the C1 variance of often known as the hardship variance uh that there's a specific component of our site that is existing whether it's for uh the shape of it the narrowness the shallowness that makes it uh impossible for us to meet or difficult for us to meet uh the
ordinance standard uh our site and again we are I'm arguing that because of the huge size of our site and the huge size of our building that the sign sizes and the number of signs required by our ordinance would be insufficient to
promote the safe movement of vehicles, trucks and people to the extent that they might be going outside for a break. Uh they the size of the site dictates the need for the size and number of these signs. Um the side the site is actually 24 times larger than the
minimum uh lot requirement for this zone which is uh two acres is the I'm sorry. Yeah, two acres is the minimum. Um we are >> almost 50 >> almost 50. Thank you. About 48. Uh so it's incredibly large compared to the
the minimum. Uh the wall-mounted delivery sign at the rear is proportionate to the size of the building. Again, as our engineer testified to, it's going to be large enough. And also when I drove by the site, I was not entirely sure what to expect getting to the rear of the
building. Um but that sign did become abundantly clear. It is a long flat wall and so even if you can't read specifically what the sign says right away, you do see it there and so your eye goes to it and as a truck or a driver, you will know to look for for that sign and what it says. It is very
visible when you come around the right side of the building. I'm sorry, I'm using my hands, but it's very visible when you come around the right side of the building here and and make that turn. uh the large Dream onMe advertising sign again at the uh I'll say the bottom end
of this intersection here and actually it's even a little bit to the left uh that is necessitated by the distance from Veronica Avenue and again the size of the building and the site it's with full foliage as previous uh board member
pointed out you don't even see the entire text from the roadway >> so so the the big sign goes on the side of the building. That would be the where your cursor is now. >> Correct.
>> And the smaller sign goes on the side. The big sign faces Veronica Avenue. The smaller sign faces uh >> the farm. >> Well, past the farm is Bennett's Lane. >> And yes, and Bennett's Lane. Beyond
that. Yes. And can you see the sign from Bennett's Lane? >> You know, I apologize. I did not drive down Bennett's Lane this evening. Um, I can say that there are a number of there there are uh truck parking spaces at the
I'll say the bottom of our site here, the southern end uh along with uh some other other equipment. this uh I don't know if it's a retention or detention basin is large, very large. I'll say the scale is very hard to uh
appreciate in this aerial image. Uh so while the sign may be visible if you're really looking for it, I do believe that there are plenty of other there's also lots of vegetation that's growing up way taller than I am. It might not be mature trees, but you have uh other vegetation
associated with wet ground that is fairly tall. So, >> and exact on your on this picture exactly where is Bennett's Lane? >> Where my >> Okay, I see it now. I see the writing on it now. >> And and and what's and Miss Merch, what's the approximate distance from the
building where the rear shipping and receiving sign is to Bennett's Lane approximately. >> So, let's see the distance from the building to the lot line is >> and maybe we we need to get Mr. Sher up here to scale it off. But
>> do you have that number? >> He'll he'll pull that up. >> Okay. >> I could estimate, but he has the exact number. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Um so while he's pulling up, I'll continue if that's all right with the board. Um I also believe that all of our variances can be justified under the C2
uh what we call the that the benefits of granting the deviations substantially outweigh any potential detriments associated with them. and that purposes of the municipal land use law will be furthered by by granting the variances. Um again I I personally think especially
the dream on me sign is aesthetically pleasing. It it is suitable for the site and the building. If I can go back to it um we're not talking about a a rectangular sign that's filled in from
corner to corner. It's text and then three stars. and where the three stars are located, that measurement is part of what contributes to the overall square footage of our signage. So, uh, we don't have a solid sign that is filling up all
of that square footage. So, it provides, I think, a very nice, uh, and appropriately scaled for the size of the building, a very nice looking sign. Um, but more importantly, both this sign and our directional signs and the rear signs are really for sight circulation and
safety. When we talk about signs, their location, their design, those are really the two things we look for is aesthetics and safety. Can it be seen and can it help maintain a safe circulation pattern? And as somebody who visited the site for the first time today, uh, and is a little bit dyslexic, these signs
were incredibly helpful for me in a car navigating and knowing as a car I could navigate the entire site, but knowing affirmatively where trucks were and were not permitted to be. Um, I know we're here for variances after the fact, as Mr. Simon said, seeking forgiveness, but
if this was before you as a conceptual application, I would not propose smaller signs. I think they are completely appropriate for navigating the sites. >> And you and you commented, Miss Mertz, about um not only safety and um a safe and efficient circulation, but also to
segregate between passenger vehicles that are visiting the site, whether it's customers, whether it's employees, etc., and keeping them separate from tractor trailers or other larger vehicles that may be traversing the site. >> Yes, absolutely. And I'll go back to the
aerial and actually in fact this site plane here is that we we haven't spoken about yet. Um I don't know if you wanted to mark it. It was part of the original submission. >> Yeah. Why don't we what's this? A3 >> I believe A3. Yes. >> Okay. So why don't we identify for A3? Um what sheet what sheet is it?
>> This is sheet three and it's with the same revision date March 30th, 2026. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, so I think we didn't touch on this before, but these circles here that I'm highlighting with my mouse, these are the locations of all of the signs we've spoken about. And as
uh our engineer testified to, you can tell you can see this is the bulk of the directional signage right here. So when when coming south or downwards from Veronica Avenue, slowing down into this intersection, this is a big intersection. It's very wide and you do
have the option to go straight into the uh regular vehicle parking area. You have the option to turn right to loop around counterclockwise or you have the option to turn left to loop clockwise. Uh these signs were imperative to
understanding where to go for trucks. Again, trucks could not go to the right or looping around counterclockwise. Those two signs were very helpful to understand that. And I'm not a truck driver, but I would imagine it would be helpful for them as well.
Uh I'll touch quickly uh the purposes of the MLUL that are these variances promote purpose A promoting the public health, safety, morals, and general welfare and purpose I promoting a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good civic design and arrangement. Um again,
I I think the safety here contributes to our argument. I think the aesthetics of the sign of the dream on me wall sign really do fit the context of our site and the practicality of all of the directional signs are appropriate for
the scale and size of the site. Um, one thing we've not touched on fully but have I think our our engineer cited a little bit was that we are very well buffered. Um, this again, my my mouse is going along the driveway here to the top of
our warehouse building. Uh, there's a line of vegetation uh on the properties to the the north of us, the top of us. It's very dense. I I hardly even saw the buildings on the other side of it. Uh, again, this and then to the right of the building, this is a very dense. There's
uh I don't know if there it's a retention or detention. There's there's water in here. This is very dense. And of course to the left side of our building, extremely dense. Uh the farm is behind us and you don't see tall trees, but like I said, the vegetation that's growing there is very tall. So we are we are really fully shielded by a
lot of our neighbors. You're going to see, of course, the building from the rear, but uh the signage is not impactful. And finally, just to wrap up, uh I'll touch on the negative criteria. uh that one the variances can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good
or to your zoning ordinance or master plan. Um I've already talked about the size and and my opinion of that uh I think extensively and the fact that it's a flag lot and that we are behind our buildings makes it a unique situation. Um the issues at hand here are very
singular and are not touched on in your broader master plan documents. Uh there is no specific recommendations about our site or this signage. There was in your 2023 master plan a recommendation to amend the sign uh schedule that was amended and those are the variances we
were asking for tonight. Um I will point out though that the one of the stated purposes of signage in article 12 is to promote signs which are orderly, readable and appropriate to the activity to which they pertain. And it is my professional opinion that these signs
accomplish just that and anything else would would uh hinder the ability to safely navigate the site. Also, the signs have been in place for a few years now and they have not had any issues on the site in terms of traffic and I'm sorry, not traffic, but uh
>> accidents. >> Accidents. Thank you. Yeah. Um, and so it's my opinion that our proposal satisfies both the positive and negative criteria and I'll take any questions and then I'll let you guys go home and go to bed.
>> Any questions? >> No, >> Mr. Chairman, I'm just going to share a a screenshot real quick. Um, >> do I need to un >> showing because it just shows the the building the sign and scale with the I mean the build building goes off the
screen on my screen here but Oh, it's not sharing. I need to record. >> Oh, no. Forget it. That's all right. That's right. I don't want to hold up the proceeding. >> I have a good rendering that shows the
dream on me signage. the good writer and shows the dream signage in relation to the scale of the of the entirety of the building. But we can move on. >> May I wait? >> Anything? >> Yeah. Well, I I guess I'd like to ask
you um you you've said now that this these um that these signs are really a good size for this building, but my concern as somebody who's trying to
retain some level of um reducing the the amount of commercial clutter I would say is how how big would they have to get before they were too big?
>> Uh I don't I don't have a numerical answer for you. I I can say that again as somebody who was approaching the site for the first time they were very effective in helping me navigate. Uh given it's it's very hard in photos in
aerials to really comprehend the size of the site and the building. Uh, I don't think we need more signage, but I don't think less would be appropriate either. I don't have a number though to tell you how big it would be. Uh, that would be inappropriate. And I think that's a
little subjective, too. Depends on your your eyesight and your ability to read quickly while you're driving. >> Any other questions? >> No. >> Make a token open to the public again. I guess no one wants to speak, so we'll
close. >> I I to just ask just because I want to uh clean up the record if there's a still a question about the distance um from the um rear shipping and receiving sign to the nearest right ofway. Would
you like Mr. Shar to provide that information in terms of the linear distance? Okay. >> While Mr. Sher is coming up, Mr. Simon, for the purposes of the record, since this is a forgiveness application,
how long have the signs been there? And before you answer it, were the signs changed? And if so, when? When you say where the signs changed, >> there was testimony that at one time there were two tenants in the building
and bye-bye baby and dream on me and that there were signs that said dream on me and bye-bye baby. So my question is one, how long have the directional signs in general been up?
And two, since the the directional signs that you placed up on the screen only say dream on me, when were they changed out? >> Okay, Steve, do you Oh, do you want to go ahead? >> I don't know the answer to that. I'm just ask the distancing and I'll sit down. Is that Does that work for
everybody? So, the distance from the back of the building to Bennett's Lane is 850 ft. >> Okay, good. Thanks. >> Yep. >> So, you can see the building from Bennett >> and and when were the bye-bye baby signs taken away? months or >> the signs were taken away about a year
ago. They're all put up at the same time. >> Okay. So, why don't you make yourself make yourself comfortable? I know you've been here the longest. >> Good evening everyone. >> Raise your right hand. Get sworn. >> Testimony. You're about to give truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth. So, I help you God. >> Yes. >> State your full name, spell your last
name, and indicate your relationship to the applicant. >> Steven Catchan, K A C H T-An. And I am the CIO of Dream on Me. >> And so, uh, Mr. Bernstein, the board attorney, had two questions uh for me that are better answered by you. Um I
guess the first question, well, let's work backwards. The first question is when were the bye-bye baby signs removed? >> Uh the bye-bye baby signs were removed about April 2025. >> So a little over a year ago. >> Okay.
>> And I assume nobody sought approvals at that time. Well, no. We we had um I don't remember when the application was was originally filed, but I know that it was filed
soon and I don't want to state specifically when, but >> I I we were contacted and let's go to the second question, which is the first question. How long have they been up there period? >> Do you know?
>> They were all put up in I would say October of 2023, September, October around that time. >> Thank you, sir. Listen, >> any other questions for >> for this gentleman here?
>> Yes, >> I have one. Who's going to be going into uh to to go to this building? >> It's mostly employees and truckers. >> Okay. So, cuz that was one of the big questions. I I know you're doing you're
the the company deals with juvenile furniture. >> That's correct. >> Is that accurate? But this is not a a place for people to come and uh and pick out uh their kids new bunk bed. >> No, >> that this is you're like a you're like a
I guess a wholesaler that provides uh a lot of product to a number of different companies. >> That's correct. We do have our main offices there. So, sometimes we'll have salespeople and administration from other companies come and visit us, but it's not a retail location.
>> And uh just one piece of curiosity, the inside, it's a one-story building, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? >> No. >> Okay. So, um, so thank you. Uh, you've heard
from, you've heard from our witnesses and we've gone over the the variances and the the positive negative criteria. Um, you know, I will say to you parathetically before you deliberate and vote when you're when you're dealing with these kind of applications, um, you
know, this asking for permission and for forgiveness, um, we take a look, at least in my office, a little bit more closely about what the application is is is requesting and like, you know, we got here, so what are we presenting to the board? And I
would say one aspect of this application that cries out beyond even everything that was stated um by Mr. Sher, Miss Mertz is that um this is you know in my humble opinion the quitessential um C2
calfman um better zoning alternative for the property. So we we zone or the the um governing body zones properties. And the reason why you go before a board of adjustment is you are seeking an adjustment. That's why it's called the
board of adjustment, an adjustment to what's in the ordinance. And under the Calfman case, it talks about um pro prevent providing proofs that can demonstrate that what you're asking for is a better zoning alternative for the
property as opposed to strictly complying with the requirements of the ordinance here. Given the size of the building, the size of the property, and the distance of the building, and the related signage
from both the northern right ofway and the southern right ofway, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of of linear feet um justify per the testimony that was provided why the variances that that may
seem um extensive on paper are really appropriate for this particular site and provide a better zoning alternative. We humbly submit for this particular site
under these circumstances based on the the driveway size of the building, size of the property, avoiding conflicting movements, separating trucks and passenger vehicles and um and promoting safety. So, we ask you to uh vote favorably and thank you for your
consideration. >> Okay. Any any board questions? I don't particularly have any problem with the signs. I've driven by there a lot.
>> They seem uh appropriate. I think the dream on me sign I think is over inflated in size because you've got those dots that are floating around that are included in it. I don't know what the square footage of just dream on me
would be. But I think that is significantly smaller. As a as a driver getting old, I appreciate being able to turn in the driveway and see what's and be able to read what's on the
signs. It's on your property. It's directing people to your facility. I think the condition is >> that we might need to have imposed is and it will be automatically any of
those other warehouses that are being uh having applications coming to the planning board will have signage issues. The whole process can be reviewed with each application. But the condition I
guess would be that you agree to be a participant and make adjustments as ter as as as determined necessary by either board whichever one I guess would come before it. I don't know if we can do
something like that. One of the conditions would be that you would agree to come back to the board if there's a need for sign re-evaluation. I believe you've agreed to that, Mr. >> Yes. Um the mechanics I'm I'm not so sure about between the different boards, but the answer is yes. >> Well, the point is whatever the planning
board ultimately does on that may impact yours and they'll come back. >> It's it's all about, you know, the safety and efficiency >> and you're meeting all avoiding you meet all the the conditions of the TRC memo. >> Correct. And and the big thing for me is this is this this affects mainly uh
trucks that are on your property and going to specific places back in that area where there will be other warehouses and even uh people driving uh cars. It's it's I can't say it doesn't affect the general public as it does
indirectly, but it's not a it it the signs are not directly advertising. Maybe dream on me on the sidewall is when they're facing Veronica, but but the signs are there for a specific
utility and I don't have a problem with it. But I'll listen to the rest of the board or or entertain a motion. Um I before I uh draft a motion, uh I just want to say that um this is a a
problem that I I see getting uh more uh difficult in the future. I don't like the idea that they're going to be able to see the name um uh Dream on Me um from Bennett's Lane. That's
always been a very buolic road and that's uh that's basically um changing that environment by allowing this sign. Uh my father when you I would come to these kind of situations my father would
always say well Bob you know the question is where does a bald man stop washing his face it's uh one of those questions of where is the where's the point where do you need to be and there really seems to be no limitation of the
upside of the signage the planner today testified that this was a really a really appropriate size, but um I think that a size that is smaller might be uh another way to look at the the
appropriate size. There's really no there's really no good standards to work with here. And it's it's very tough for me to sit and ask questions and not feel like I'm just like grabbing uh or uh um
grabbing and and just getting thin air. I'm not really I'm not really making any difference by asking those questions. So, um it's uh it's very difficult for me uh to uh vote in favor of of the big
signs. I'm more troubled by them uh than I am the directional signs because those definitely do promote safety and um there since the applicant has agreed that if um uh there's other warehouses
or other buildings that go up and the signs need to be signage needs to be re-evaluated that they're going to be willing to come back to either uh the planning board or the zoning board uh to do that. But we have no similar thoughts
as far as the big signs are concerned and um I just don't know how to how to quantify what would be a good uh size. Uh but I um I would say that the the
planner's thought is the only one that we really have to work with on that. Um, so with that, unless somebody else has something else that they want to add, uh, I'll make a motion.
>> All right. Um, let's see. Uh, I move that we grant, uh, Dream on Me Industries of 45 Veronica Avenue, block 8802, lot 71.01.
uh uh the variances uh it is requesting under application ZBA 26002 uh the variances for uh sign uh size uh and uh height uh on the uh uh the the uh
warehouse building on that particular site and um that it may uh include all of the uh currently existing uh directional signage um on the uh the
property. uh with the understanding that uh the applicant will uh uh be be uh ready and willing to uh go back to the uh uh zoning board or the planning
board, whichever is appropriate, uh to discuss uh re and re-evaluate the signage on the property. uh that will be dealt for directional uh issues. >> We have a second. >> A second.
>> Before we vote, the these are all C variances, so it's a majority to four. >> All right. Okay. >> All board. >> Vasim Verdas. >> Yes. >> Alan Rich. >> Four. >> What did you say?
>> Oh, four. I'm sorry. >> Gary Rosenthal. >> Yes. >> Robert Shepard. Yes, >> Chairman Thomas. >> Yes. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Entertain a motion to adjourn. >> So move.
>> A second. Second. All in favor? >> I oppose. Meeting and journ.