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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=u2Y4sSLdo1s

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In accordance with open public meetings act 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this regular meeting of the zoning board of the township of Franklin has been provided. Board members, applicants, professional professionals,

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members of the public, please speak directly into microphones so our recording secretary can properly process minutes. Applicants and professionals, please fill out the sheet on the table when you've completed your testimony.

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Thank you. And I think we can now call the role. >> Okay. Um Alan Rich asked to be excused this evening. Cheryl Bethia >> here. >> Richard Proanic >> here. >> Vasim Verdas >> here. >> Gary Rosenthal >> here. >> Robert Shepard

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>> he's >> Oh, I see him. >> Mike Dy >> here. Kunalakia >> here >> and chairman Thomas >> here. Uh no uh minutes to approve. Uh anything

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else going down to the hearings? And right now there is one hearing for this evening. Tawed Dawa Center ZBA2417 amended preliminary and final site plan plus relief of conditions in which the applicant is proposing construction of a

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19,350 ft place of worship at 630 South Middleush Road, Somerset, lot 37.02, lot 463 in the zone A. This has been carried

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since uh or from February 18th. Uh we've had some uh previous testimony. And would you like to bring us all up to date from your point of view where we're at at this point? Just a quick uh

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>> My name is Brian Schwarz. >> Was it green? Push it down and hold it down. >> I pressed the button back there. I think that guy got until he comes. Got it. >> Okay. Uh Mr. Chairman, board members, my name is Brian Schwarz. Schwarz had Olson

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and Talis. I represent the applicant. Uh we've had two nights of testimony. We started November 19th. You have the minutes of that meeting of that hearing as well as the minutes from February 18th. So far, we've heard from our applicant at length on November 19th. We

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heard last time from our engineer and our architect. In the meantime, our engineer and architect submitted revised plans. They're very small changes, but nevertheless, I want them to come up and identify what the changes were. One addressed parking, and Mr. Ardman will

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talk about that. And the other one was the architect who redid the floor plan to show a more realistic number of prayer mats in the prayer area. I think that's important information. So, and like I said, those plans were submitted more than 10 days ago. And so, they will

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talk very briefly about those two items. Then, we intend to go on with our traffic engineer, Mr. Peniac. Um, he will testify. And then our final witness is our planner, Kevin O'Brien. So, unless there's any questions, we'll proceed with Mr. Arvin.

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>> That sounds good. >> I I guess I guess I I have a a question. Maybe it's actually more appropriately brought to my uh uh the staff, but um we

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got a letter uh today from the Reynolds group that was deposited uh on our uh next to where we were going to sit. So, um I've taken a look at it. Um, and uh I imagine that there'll be a

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great deal of discussion of this because it seems to be a point raised by the objector. But my question is it's dated April 2nd. When when did it it when did we get it? >> Yeah, we we got it around that time.

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It's been on the website since and when Christine emailed the agenda to you, it was on that link on the website. Um, and then the objecting attorney as well submitted some information. We treated it the same way. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Mr. Orman, you're still under oath.

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>> If I could just um address Mr. Shepard's comment. We don't intend to talk about that tonight. It's really a rebuttal and so we reserve our right to have Mr. Ardman recalled after we hear from the obviously we haven't heard the testimony from the objector's witness and so he has nothing to rebut until but he wanted

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to put that in writing so that board had in front of you. >> Okay. Now he's going >> thanks >> testify on the >> he's going to testify >> changes >> correct Mr. Chairman. >> Okay. So we we have up on the screen uh

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a rendering and this was submitted also uh in that package to the board and that the basic uh premise of this package deals with parking as as uh Brian said uh what come up what came up at the last meeting Mr. Chairman and from uh Mr.

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was based on the discussion relating to the number of uh people at a prayer um service and you heard testimony on that and as you heard it's in the minutes there um and I look back at my notes as well. So typically 60 people at a prayer service,

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a higher one 70 to 80, but on those kind of holier days there be up to 150 people. And that was the testimony from the applicant. And that was also submitted as part of the um um the notification to the board as to the intent of the use on the property.

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>> And that and that is you know, you're saying 50, but that's for looks like there's five services a day. So each service would have 50. >> Um that >> Mr. Sheepard, we submitted as part of our application, in fact, it's in

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evidence as uh as uh A1, exhibit A1, our statement of proposed use, and we were specific and detailed in the number of people we expected at a a prayer meeting. And and truthfully, the only time we're going to be even up in the

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50s area is the one evening prayer meeting. Otherwise, it's going to be even lower than that. So, the answer to is yes. Each of these prayer meetings are like a half an hour long and there will not be more than that number or 60 or 70 at that one prayer meeting. >> Okay. Well, that's that's I just he when

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he was speaking a moment ago, he said, "Yeah, there'll be 50 people there." And I just wanted to to make that entirely clear. It's also in in notes of the TRC uh discussing who how many people uh were going to be at each service and how

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many services there were uh per day and I just wanted to I just wanted to make sure that I was understanding what was going on. >> Yeah. >> So Mr. Ardman is always pretty good. There was there's something in I'd like to follow up on that before you start

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because something that I was concerned about too. When when you use numbers like no more than 50 or 60 or you know whatever it is that that they turn out to be.

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Where do those numbers come from? from the other mosques that my people operate and from their experience with other mosques in the area. The testimony on November 19th was there are a lot of mosques in the

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area. This board has approved a number of them and there are two other mosques that are operated by the same uh the same group. And so they know from the experience because they're still going to keep those mosques open. It's not like they're going to close them. from their experience they know how many

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people come to these meetings and it's based upon that experience that they know that this is going to be the limit and and let me go further Mr. Chairman this is this is really critical okay we committed ourselves in our application of how many people they're going to be then committed ourselves with Mr. Rozy's

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testimony under oath. Each of our uh professionals is getting up here and using that number. If those numbers are greatly exceeded, basically I mean basically everybody has lied. Okay? And I mean that's a strong thing to have happen. We are committing

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ourselves to these numbers. This isn't just some number that next week we're going to say, "Oh, did we say 50? We meant 70." We put this in writing and we and and every professional has talked about this number. Well, my concern about the validity of the numbers and h

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or how they're arrived at is that you know if these are greatly exceeded that means that this facility will have been approved and is is operating and then there is absolutely nothing that

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really can be done about it and and that becomes a big problem. Uh it's not like you it's like you said these numbers aren't critical but who who's at the door counting and

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is it possible to find a way to get a much more objective to to uh count on this? Does does this congregation have services presently at another facility? >> Yes. At other mosque, >> right? Is it possible to have somebody

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count people at those services? You know, that's more independent. >> Mr. Thomas, um, this board approved an application three years ago, 23, three years ago was the same situation. These people came in and they said, "This is how many people we're going to have

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here." All right. Any application you have, there's representations as to how it's going to be used. and you the board relies on those representations. All right. And so I don't know why I'm looking at page 12 of your minutes. Mr. Rozie said exactly how many people are

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going to be there. And so I I'm not sure why you're singling out this applicant of why you don't believe or you're having trouble believing them. We've we've put it in everything in writing. We've committed ourselves as much as we possibly can. there is no basis for this

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board to say, "Well, we we believed the applicant three years ago. We don't believe you." Well, I'm kind of glad you brought that up because in the previous application, we spent over a year getting working toward an approval. And the one of the

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very big concerns that I still have, and there's lots of testimony to go, so it can all change and evolve, but intensity of use is an issue for me right now or a potential issue. You mentioned the other one and nobody said anything about the

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numbers or anything, but that that facility was proposed to be used five days a month. Five days a month. This one is proposed to be used, if I'm not mistaken, five

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times a day, daily. >> Yes, >> that's a big difference in the intensity of the use. I think that's a very important issue. >> It's in fewer numbers and just as you expected that just as you expected that

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applicant three years ago was going to abide by their word, we expect that you have you have no basis whatsoever to think that this applicant is not going to abide by their word. And if you see a 100 cars out there, if you see droves of people there or the neighbors who are so concerned about this,

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>> they're going to call up your zoning officer. They're going to call up your zoning department. It's going to be awfully easy to shut this down. >> That's easy for us to say here, harder to put into action. You know what? We're actually we I'm not going to speak for the whole

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board. >> I'm interested in avoiding those problems, not reacting to them after the after the building's built, functioning, and and working. And then we have a problem that can't be solved.

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>> Mr. Thomas, I don't know what more I can say other than we've put in writing what we're going to do. And there's >> Well, it concerns me that the building is close to four times bigger than what your services,

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>> you know, and I understand I I saw the chart with the floor mats and everything like that, but yes, you're building a a a slightly smaller building than the previous approval, but the worship area is over

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20% bigger. And not only is it an issue of of traffic and intensity, it's an issue of when during the day do you reach capacity for the septic system. >> Well, that's why we Well, septic you're

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not talking about something different, but we have our professional testimony from our traffic engineer who explained the traffic situation that there is not a traffic problem. And quite frankly, u Mr. chairman, board members, there's

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nothing more that I or my client can say or do um other than uh we've sworn that this is what we're going to do. We put in all our papers, our application, there's nothing more we can say. The questions came up during the last application. Um my client has explained

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how they use the room that it's they have a prayer session, a group prayer session. Then they go to different areas of the room in order to have private prayers between them and and their deity. That's how they pray. And I I'm not going to repeat myself over and over

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that we can't do much more than put it right in our testimony and in our documentation. And Mr. Rozy's testimony is in your minutes. The numbers that you're supplying are provided to you by your applicant. Correct? >> Yes.

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>> My question is why can't we have some independent objective verification of those numbers? You mentioned the traffic report. There's nobody in in this in

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there's nobody on behalf of the that that that is part of the applicant. uh congregation standing out there counting cars. You hire a traffic engineer. Isn't there somebody that can

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be found to who could provide numbers that we could have more confidence in? >> I I don't know who that would be, Mr. Chairman. >> Well, it's your application. You want to get it approved. So, that's a suggestion I'm making. >> It's my application. I've I I don't want

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to keep repeating myself. I probably said the same thing five times. Um, if for some reason you don't believe these religious people and you believed other religious people, there's not much I could do about that. >> Mr. Thomas, can I add, can I say something? This is Kunal.

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>> Yeah, go ahead. >> Okay. So, let me refer first of all, um, I think it was the first hearing and and pardon me if it was first or second. Okay. only when we found out and we objected

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that website was taken down. There were people whose funds were solicited. I don't know what's happening with that fund and it's not my concern particularly but the intentions stated there are very different from here. Now let me come to

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the document that you have submitted and maybe you can explain this to me. At the top portion you're talking about during special events about 150 people at a time. If I talk five service that's

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750 while the you cannot exceed 458 as per the septic system approval. While you scroll down, you talking about the same number as 70 and 80. So which

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number is true? And it talks about special events like Ramadan. I'm looking at your document and if I may read it. >> Yeah. So there's special events, occasional Friday is the one. Not every

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>> special events. Yes. >> And we said that if there's a special event, we'll get a special use permit. >> Yes. >> Okay. So that's not the daily the the typical five prayer sessions a day >> which are said later on is no more than

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50 or 60 people. >> So you're you're talking about two different things. You're talking about a special event for which we will get a special use permit and the daily uh prayer sessions which will be 50 to 60 people. And so and that possibly Mark that might

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be a question for you. So on a special permit like and and and on the holy days and it can be in any religion there is likely to be more uh practitioners coming and praying. The day limit it says is 458 on the

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septic system. And if how how does like and if they are asking for special event permits for 150 people at a time which kind of comes to 750 how is that addressed is the system cuz

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that's substantially larger than 458. >> So you're looking at me um I mean the there's two different two different limitations. I mean one is there is that 458 people that can be on the site

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throughout the course of an entire day. So at the end of this no matter what they no matter you know if at the end of the day you have some parameters that you agree with they can't exceed that. >> Yes. >> Period. I mean it's not we don't need to clap. I mean this is just and and I will

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just say to the public this is a quasi judicial proceeding. comments from the public is is frankly not appropriate. If we at the time you'll have your your opportunity to comment and ask questions, but just like in a court of law, you can't comment and

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make jeers and comments from the public respectfully. Um, but that's just fact. I mean, they that the that the the limitation of the septic system is going to be 458. So, so they could propose 500 and have, you know, three sessions of 500. you

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can't approve that period. Um I think that so I think that answers that. I mean that that's ultimately that's al that's absolutely going to be a cap whether you're satisfied with the information and and um I mean I obviously that's an ongoing discussion of what what limits you may place.

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>> Thank you. and and to answer and this I'm only speaking for myself about what's the difference between this applicant versus the old applicant and I know you tried to give a you know a tone of religion uh associated with it.

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The difference between both the applications was that that particular applicant didn't have a website claiming that they were going to build schools and other things. They came with a very clear application about what they wanted to do. Right from the very beginning,

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>> I explained why the what happened with the website. >> I'm sorry. I may Mr. Thomas, may I respond to the gentleman? >> Closer to the mic, please. >> Closer. Closer. See how close I am? There you

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go. >> Okay. >> Cuz you're test your what you're saying is going to be important downstream. I can just feel it. >> Okay. I I feel like MC MC Jagger now, but but that's okay. Um, may I respond to the gentleman? Okay. I don't know

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what more I can say than what I already said about the website, which was when the when the applicant first bought the property, we did not have the resolution. We did not know the limitations. We didn't know anything about it, and they put that website up.

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my fault when we got the resolution and we we made the application to as close as possible mirror the previous approval. I didn't go back to the client say, "Hey, take down the website." It wasn't really on my mind. As soon as I told my client, "Hey, you still got that website up." It came down. That's

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there's nothing more I can say about that. I I do want to address, sir, though, about the difference in the two applications. Muslims pray differently. Okay? They have more prayer meetings with fewer people. They do it during the week and not in

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the weekend. We're going to have a traffic guy who's going to explain what impact, if any, and I'll tell you right now, there's very, very little impact he'll testify to of these small group prayer meetings. But I

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I really think you were conflating the special events that may occur, the special times during the high holidays with the prayer meetings every day. If my client goes in and says,

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"It's Ramadan. I want to have 150 people there um five times a day." Like Mr. Healey said, they're not going to apply for that because they're going to get refused. If they come in, they say, "We're going to have 50 50, but then at 5:00 we're going to have 150 and then we're going to have 50 again." Maybe

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that's reasonable. Okay? So, don't read. I tried really hard to craft the statement of per of proposed use carefully. And maybe there was a confusion about that. The special use permits are going to have to come back. And the way I see this, if anybody

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cares, the way I see this happening is my client's going to start off. They're going to have 50 people, 60 people at a meeting. things are going to go really well. You get through Ramadan, the special use permits applied for the zoning officer, whomever it is in the building department will say, "Well, things have been going well. We're going

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to let you have one meeting where there's 150 people, okay? But we're not going to let you have it at every meeting or something." Maybe the next year they're doing really well and they're going to let a couple more, but otherwise they're going to go back to that 50 or 60 because if we're banking

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parking spaces and you see cars parked up on grass and stuff, it's pretty obvious there's a violation here. I mean, it's it's not some kind of surreptitious prayer meeting happening in a basement. It's going to be pretty obvious, right? If there's a problem, you're going to see it. What I'm saying

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is I'm I'm relying on what my client has sworn to and what all our documents say. And I'm saying this for the 12th time and I apologize. This is what we intend to do. If we somehow don't do what we're saying we're doing, well then we know there's going to be consequences and

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there's much not much more I can say. I'm I'm dealing with religious people who have taken an oath and I don't know what more I can say. They they're not closing down other mosques. there that this is going to be kind of an auxiliary mock and it's going to be limited number

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of people. I there's nothing more I can say. I don't know what I can say. Mr. Chairman, >> anybody else? >> I don't know what else to say. >> Mr. Thomas, if we can do the finish the testimony and if you still have qualms at the end and there's something more I

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I don't know what more assurances but let's address it then can we at least you know get some of the highriced help up here and finish with them. >> Let's let's move on then to Mr. Hardman. >> Thank you Mr. Thomas. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Um so what I

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have up on the screen here it's our dimension plan R1. This was submitted in the package that um Mr. Hilly noted ahead of time to the board. It's um similar to the one that I had presented last time. You'll see on the plan the designation is board of adjustment

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banked parking exhibit with a date of 0401 of 2026. And the purpose of again preparing this again the chairman Mr. Hilly wanted our numbers to basically coincide with each

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other. If you're going to have maximum of 150 people at any one time, and there's a good point by Mr. Shepard, it it does happen over the course of the day. Um, that's the max number that the parking is going to be shooting for. And I've worked with this board, as you

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know, many many times. You want enough parking, you don't want parking problems. We don't want parking problems. We know any overflows is only going to be on the lawn, which nobody wants to see. I know some of the other uh houses of worship in town, problems

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can be they park on the street, they park in neighborhoods around the corner. There's no that's not an option here. So, we need to make sure the parking fits on site. So, as I said, um the 150 people at one time is the max. Again,

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what I was saying, it's a good point about the numerous um prayer sessions is that as you heard, they're short and that's the standard at prayer at the mosque, 30 minutes, and there's spacing in between. So, there's not the overlap that we're going to worry about. That's

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something that I ask and our traffic engineer asked pretty early on. Are these going to blend into each other that we that that's going to be an issue? And as they described, the prayer services, they're spread apart enough, they're short enough, that's not an issue. So, we're at 50 maximum. So, I

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took a look um you know, your ordinance has a provision for um certain parking at at one per uh three uh three people, which would be 50. But, uh we all want to be conservative here. Again, nobody wants a problem. So, one per two would

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be 75 spaces. So, we said that would be the the floor of what we should need, not the max. So, uh, what we're showing here is, um, and I'm pointing on the screen to the exhibit. There are >> Can you enlarge that? >> Yeah. Let me

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one more. Now it moves. Give me one minute. Okay. So, we were all always um well always the originally approved application banked 30 spaces uh which are the ones that back up on our neighbors on South

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Middle Bush and I'm pointing to them on the exhibit. Uh what we said is we can bank another 30 spaces in that area. So, this full area would be banked and those were the most appropriate spaces again that are the closest to any neighbors and we're trying not to pave where we

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don't need a pave. uh as you heard me say 75 would kind of be a minimum in my number. Uh this would give us uh 92 spaces plus another 58 spaces for for 97 total. And with 150 people I think

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that's an appropriate number with a with a buffer there for parking. And again, we're confident in that at any one time without overlap on on parking from other prayer services, that 150 number. And so that's what I just wanted to show the

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board with this exhibit, it's really just limited to that. And again, since questions were raised to get the, you know, the parking squared with the number of participants or prayer people praying, what what is the um surface going to be of the bank parking spaces?

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>> It would be lawn. >> All right. Right. So you're increasing the previous area and yeah decrease. >> And and even with that, if there were area we didn't have to disturb where there were some existing trees there that could remain trees, they could they could stay trees as well. >> And and you're reducing the amount of

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front yard parking. >> Correct. >> And you're and you're increasing the buffer from the residential um properties along along the road. >> Exactly. That's all the questions I had for this witness.

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I just have one comment on the layout. Um, if at the end of the day this gets incorporated um into a board decision, I would just recommend that the the spaces that are landbanked are reconfigured so you don't have a big deadend parking lot. You

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know, if this gets full and then what do they do? Then Mitch, you know, we always try to discourage that. So >> if it ends up being 60 spaces, you'd have to reconfigure that. So, it's not a dead end parking lot, >> right? We could keep the maybe a one-way drive to loop around as you come to the

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end and we could keep just that drive there, but we would happily work with staff and come up with the most efficient layout. >> I'm sure you can figure it out. >> Thank you. >> It's a good idea. >> Just one comment I would have with lane banking. On other projects, when there is land banking, there's usually a full

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face curve to prevent people from parking in the grass area. something that if it's were to move forward, you'd be looking for >> Yeah, that's appropriate and we'd agree to that. >> I'm I'm I didn't quite hear what our engineer said. Did he say that the

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parking lot should be curbed? >> Uh just the area that would be banked to curb around it so people aren't driving onto the the open space or lawn area to park. >> And we agreed. >> Okay. All right. So

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what did the original application provide for in terms of parking spaces? >> It provided the total number was 157 with 30 land banked. >> So 127. >> Okay. And and yours is what you're

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proposing here is >> would be 90 97 with 60 bananked. >> With 60 bananked. >> Yes. >> So there'd be 30 spaces. No, no, no. Plus, >> 97 built, 97 constructed.

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>> Okay. >> And on top of that, room for 60 more designed, >> right? That those are the 60 would be banked. >> Correct. >> Okay. But 97 would be made. >> Correct. >> Now, here's a question that I don't know the answer to, and I don't know whether

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Mr. Healey knows the answer or our attorney knows the answer. They they come to and they use the 97 spaces and um they realize that uh because people are coming in cars by themselves or what

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other non-nefarious reason they're they don't have enough spaces. Do they have to come back here to get more spaces or is it just how does that work? Well, I I think the the answer on a typical application, so let me answer I'll

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answer it that way. Let's say this was a shopping center and they went to the board and you know, our ordinance requires 100 spaces and the board has a discussion with the applicant and it's agreed, okay, we're only going to build 75. That's really what we need. We're

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going to bank the other 25. and they happen to get a tenant, a restaurant that happens to have a higher parking demand, they can. So part of the reason in land banking what they do is the site plan, they actually design it. So it's on the approved site plans, how it's

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going to be graded and drained, and where the lights are going to be, the landscaping is going to be. So basically, it's kind of approved, but they're just not building it. They're going to leave it grass unless they need it. So, if it's already incorporated on the site plan, they can basically come

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to the zoning department and say, "We're going to improve those spaces." I would probably go to Darren and we'd probably have a discussion about, you know, just to make sure that the site plan is good to go, but they can go and build it. Um, conversely, the zoning officer, if there's a parking problem, we can

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require them, you know, if they're parking on the grass, parking in the detention basin, we can require them to finish those next 25 spaces. Um, the reason I use the retail requirement example is that's a little more straightforward. You know, if they in this situation,

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it may not be that simple because well, why are they having a parking problem? So, we'd have to look into that, you know, are they, you know, is there some other reason why they're not why they're why they need more parking? Are they not complying with the approvals? You know, so we it's it would be, I think, a

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little bit more complicated in this case. >> Okay. So, so then it it the way that you've explained it to me, um you the resolution could also read uh that they've banked 30 spaces, but if they

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want to use them, they got to come back to the board for approval. >> Uh yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that's a good question. I think again what I explained was the more typical, but I would think if if if you wanted them to come back and not just let the zoning officer permit the construction, I don't

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I would think that's an appropriate >> that as a condition of approval if you choose to. >> Yeah, >> I would want to make sure that they have to come back because I think that's one of the few guard rails we have. that that indication that they might need

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that extra 30 could also be an indication that there might be a growing congregation. So that would be worthwhile knowing. The other thing uh in your letter mark April 2nd uh just in the interest of consistency

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you're building 97 parking spaces. That's what you said. Right. >> Right there. I I referenced 92 plus the ADA spaces. So it wasn't as clear there, but >> So there's six ADAs >> for five. 92 + 5 97. >> Okay. Just so the total is 97. Okay.

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>> Correct, Mr. Chairman. >> And and the full and the site actually has been fully designed for drainage, for lighting, for landscaping for the full buildout. As Mark noted, >> I just have one question coming back to this bank parking. Why not just remove

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the parking from the application altogether? Why bank it? Well, I think it gives the board with the condition that was placed to say, you know, they're here. It's a use.

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Either Mark can make them put them in or because maybe it is one per car and it's still within all the numbers that we've said. So, it it leaves all the discretion at the board's hand either now or in the

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future. You you think there would be we would have less power by as a board less discretion by approving bank parking as opposed to it being outright eliminated and a new site plan application needing to be filed should that parking be required.

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>> Yeah, I would say yeah in that case do you have more discretion? Probably. But um I mean we're here with a fully, you know, designed application. I I don't see how much less you would have by keeping it banked, honestly. But you know it's your >> I think it just speaks to the concerns

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of the board and the public >> that you're making allocations for what could be perceived could be perceived as future growth. >> Sir sir, part of it is we're asking for a parking variance and you're suggesting that we reduce the potential parking

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even further. You're asking us to make the variance even >> further exasperating the variance. >> Yes. And so, you know, that that's that's the anomaly to have us in. >> Yeah. And un understood. And and we have um approached applications like that in

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the past where the applicant truly felt they have not they did not need that surplus parking. Um, but to that same point, if you're you're trying to demonstrate that you could be compliant with the parking, then why

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wouldn't you bank all the 180 whatever is required or there the difference? >> We we need parking. >> I mean, there's no there's no street parking. We we're not going to park along the drive. We want to park on the grass. So

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we're the dialogue that's going on right now is that the board's going to retain some not jurisdiction but um retain authority to in the case there's a need to use these additional spaces. Would I rather not be such a condition? No. But I'm not surprised the board's talking

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about the condition. I mean I makes sense um because again you're relying on what my client's saying and my client's essentially saying we're not going to need those spaces. But if it's fully engineered, why not just leave it there and we still the the applicant would

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still have to come back here. You'd have to review why the heck do you need more spaces? So you're still keeping that authority, but you're engineering the project so that you know that if necessary, those spaces can be utilized. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I just appreciate the response. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

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>> No, I answer your question. I mean, what you're basically doing is creating more work for Mr. hacking me because then we'd have to figure out what the the burden of proof and all that kind of stuff is on the applicant. But you're not thinking in those terms right now. You're just thinking I want to be sure we have some some control over this.

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>> Just trying to get you guys some billable hours. >> Mr. Hack is independently wealthy. I can't speak for myself. Go ahead. >> I I think that's what I'm done with for today. >> All right. Any any other important

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questions? >> Anyone? All right. Before we open to the public, and I know you heard me say it before. We're talking about what you just heard. I

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don't want to go off on any tangents. You have your opportunity coming to present your own case later. >> Thank you, Mr. >> Thomas. It was green. >> Did you see it? It's green again. Here we go. Thank

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you, Mr. Uh Thomas chair, ladies and gentlemen of the board, Martina Bailey. Uh I'm here representing John and Ray Snder who are the neighbors um with the farm, the Snyder farm next to the subject property. Just a couple of follow-up questions and I know um

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not only do I think the board would have no discretion I have less discretion I think the board actually would have no choice but to approve additional spaces if they were banked and approved as banked versus if the board um considered a variance for 97 spaces only. Um the

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flip side of the question Mr. Procanic asked I'll ask which is given all these questions and the uncertainty and the the likelihood or possibility that the congregation could grow why not just build the additional parking spaces. >> Is that a question Mr. Hardman? >> Yes.

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>> So I'll leave it to the board's discretion as I always do. My engineering judgment uh is what I presented. I know the board in the past has wanted to limit uh site clearing, additional paving if uh in cases that we

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think it's appropriate. We I think this is appropriate. That's why I presented this >> very well. We we would certainly ask a condition of this approval that the the applicant would have to come back for approval to construct the banked parking spaces.

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That's all I have at this point. Thank you. >> Okay. and we'll open to the public is there anyone uh who would like to ask this witness a question. This is not a time to make a statement.

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Uh and we're dealing with his testimony as presented. >> Alex Strauss 285 Hasllet Way. Can I ask the engineer um now you just mentioned trees? Can I can I ask because the environmental report

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says that um 88 trees on site are proposed for removal and you're going to replace with about 200 with 238. Is that correct? >> I don't have those exact numbers in front of me. I believe I I testified uh the previous application, but if it's in

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the report, I would say it probably is. >> Do you know what the circumference of those present 88 trees is? We yeah there's a chart on our plan because that's part of the the township's tree replacement. So we have to do some in

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kind and then for the larger trees two for one three for one. So uh we did >> size all those trees >> right and of the 238 replacement um how many is it estimated won't make it the first year you know. So it's required

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not only in this township but every township that you bond for those for those plantings just for that case. So there's a separate bond for the site work and one for the landscape work and I've worked with staff a long time and they always make sure that's that's

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bonded to make sure those if they die they get replaced. Township holds that bond. township's going to come back and take a survey of what trees are and the health of each tree and etc. I I just know that I don't know their procedure

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exactly, but if trees die, you have to replace them and there's a monetary, you know, uh holding on that. >> Right. Right. Right. Okay. All right. Thank you. Yes. Good evening. Um I'm from uh Quail

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Brook 2. Question. Uh >> your Wait, so we got to start with your name, >> Tom. Does this go to Quailbrook 2 >> and your address? >> 30 Canterbury Circle. >> Very good. >> Over. Okay. Okay. So my question is uh you're always referring to Ramadan but

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how I do not know of the Islamic faith how many holy days they have alto together plus uh tomorrow is their Sabbath. So is that going to refer will the Sabbath also be count as like a holy day where they >> that was the discussion that

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>> I instituted before his testimony. You're supposed to be asking questions dealing with his engineering testimony. >> Okay. So, regarding uh the expansion of buildings, if the building is built and occupied, is there any chance that the

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building will be expanded? You'll be adding additional buildings on that site. >> I don't think he's the one to ask. Why is that a question? Asking me to phrase in the question. >> Just answer the question. >> Just answer the question, please. Not not without coming back to this board.

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Nothing can happen other than what's on this plan without coming back to this board. >> Another question is are you going to allow the loudspeakers five times a day? >> That's not part of his testimony. >> Sir sir, um there was a statement of proposed use submitted with the

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application. Look on the website and your questions will be answered. It's very specific about what they're going to do and and not do. And I'll give you a hint, no loudspeakers. There's no outdoor sound at all. >> Okay. So, I can take your word for it.

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It's on a website. You said all that stuff. >> It's take my word for it, too. >> Well, okay. I take your word. Well, we're all so I do not I kind of don't trust human beings when it comes to this stuff because what's seems right now.

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But anyway. Okay. So, I don't think I have anything else. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else wish to ask question >> again? Please start with your name and address. >> Yeah, I'll do that. Rishi Bacharaji, 15 Hazbrook Drive, Franklin Park, and me

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and my wife are here. I have a quick question. It says 19 something,000, right? Square foot. the whole property the plant area or the >> the area the not the property the building footprint the the prop the property is almost 16 acres

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>> okay so even if I just round it off to 20,000 even if I take 30% away for bathrooms kitchens and pantry and so forth for 150 people it is 93 square ft per person

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why do you need 93 square ft per person in a prayer session. >> Uh Mr. Arman is not going to answer that question because it's way beyond his scope of his testimony. >> That was my question. Whoever wants to answer, I'm good with >> So let me let me remind the public

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again. So again, this is a quasi judicial proceeding. It's very much like a court and they presented an exhibit. Right now, Mr. Urban presented an exhibit and a testimony speaking to that exhibit. Just like in a court session,

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it might be one expert who presents certain testimony and that and the and the the attorney gets to ask gets to cross-examine and then the other and then you move on to the next expert. That's this is exactly the the process here. This is why the chairman keeps

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saying ask questions about Mr. Ardman's testimony that he just presented. So, the one thing that is a little bit different about this as opposed to a court is that the public gets to participate and kind of ask and kind of and cross-examine Mr. Ardman on the

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testimony he just provided. So, what you're asking about is not what he just discussed. >> So, the only questions I can ask are on the parking spots because that's what you're talking >> right now. That's what Mr. Arman's presenting. They are going to be presenting the architect, I believe. Is

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that correct, Mr. Schwarz? The architect's going to testify briefly. Yes. >> So, so you might your question might be better directed to him. >> Okay. I'll come back. Thank you. >> Good evening. My name is Deva Vuri. I'm from 72 Vermont Avenue, Franklin Park.

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Uh my question is around uh I believe there is a township code that says ordinance 112-37. Accordingly, if I read it right, it says minimum of 15 square foot per 15 square foot of worship area is

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required. So, what that means is for uh around 8,000 square ft, we need about 532 required spaces. >> Is it true? >> That is true. >> Then why are we only applying for now 157?

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>> Mr. chairman. Um I I don't know if these members of the public were here for the previous two hearings. >> Um these are questions that were already answered, but also our planner will testify as to the statutory basis for the variances,

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>> but Mr. Mr. Arman is not the one to answer it based upon his limited testimony that we're banking 30 spaces tonight. >> I thought I'm obligated to know as a public I live on that street. I'm obligated to know like this variance is not 10% 20%. This is like three times

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the variance which is like way overboard. So somebody should answer this. >> I perhaps to move along Mr. Arman can answer the question in 25 words or less. >> Sure. So that you're right that's the ordinance standard. Again, we don't want to dwell on the prior application, but

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there there were similar uh variances granted. And to be honest, for for many houses of worship, there were there's a kind of peculiar thing in the ordinance since there are not seats, it's based on the square footage, and it also does not

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factor in the number of people per car. So when you have seats in the house of worship as a church, as a pew, something like that, that then that factor of three for per person applies, which doesn't come into the math here. That's a kind of long-winded way of saying

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we're going to have 150 people max at any one of the services per day. And based on that number, this is an appropriate number of parking. We we don't want to pave this whole site with hundreds of parking spaces when we all know that that's not needed for any

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house of worship that I've ever belonged to. Uh you know, Jewish temples, we we know the days there are going to be people there and there's a handful and it's similar to this. You get 30, 50 people on on a Friday night. A couple of times a year you get the 60 or 100 and

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those couple of big holidays you you get a 200, but that's it. >> Thank you. I'm not satisfied. 60 to 100 when you said 60 to 100 is a 50% 100% difference. So the range 60 I would take 60 to 65 as a reasonable when you say 60

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to 100 that's big deal. But but the but this place of worship is different because there is a specific Dandar canal region 170 from 1702 era cultural landscape. >> Mr. Chairman, we're well beyond. We're having testimony now and it's well

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beyond the scope of >> No, no, this is very related to s because this is scenic corridor district overlay ordinance 112-201 requires thousand ft on either side designated as a scenic roadway. >> This wasn't >> sir you have to ask questions that

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relate to his testimony. Questions that relate to his testimony, not make statements. >> This is directly related to the public space uses. I'm not asking about >> but it's outside the scope of what he testified to. >> Sir, >> you were saying that all night.

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>> You know, as Mark as everyone else is trying to explain, you know, you can ask him questions related to what he spoke about or what he testified to. You may have a very valid question that doesn't and it doesn't take away your right or

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authority to ask that question. It's just not the right time. right now >> you will have that time um if nowhere else before everything ends it is a general freefor all you could bring any ordinance anything that

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you want to talk about >> okay I'll table this for now and but I do have some other questions so thank you >> yeah I'll just speak briefly about the scenic corridor I mean I think this board is well aware of that fact and that the the existence the fact that

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this property is on a scenic corridor the requirement irements of that of that ordinance was a big part of the of the original approval. um and for for the prior application and if you and as the applicant testified in

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this hearing at the one of the two prior um hearings, this layout is basically entirely consistent with the board's previous approval that that you imposed a whole number of conditions addressing the requirements of the

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scenic corridor. So, and the reason I say that again is I think some members of the public are they're coming at this with thinking that just because Mr. Ardman can't is not addressing that right now doesn't mean it hasn't been addressed at the hearings on this application and the year that was spent

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on the application that came that preceded it. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Hi everyone, my name is Ji Manini. I'm uh from Five Arrowhead Lane. Uh I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already. Um the

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capacity is 50 but the parking spots are 97. So that's two spots per person. I was just wondering why there is a need for 97 plus 60 bank. So the 50 on a kind

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of a daily. We don't want a parking problem on the high holidays either. The high holiday is 150. That was the testimony. So that's the number we're basing the parking off of. >> So this is built for 150. And uh and that can happen any day or only weekends

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or only on holidays? >> Only on special events. >> Only special events. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay. Good evening everyone. My name is Lisa Clark. >> You need to get closer. >> Bring the microphone down.

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>> Pull it down. There you go. >> Good evening. I'm Lisa Clark. I'm from 87 Marcy Street. Um I don't know if this is an actual question in relation to what you were thinking. Um, I had two questions

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though. One would be I'm looking at the parking lot area and I was just wondering if at some point it might be better that um it was kind of looped so

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that vehicles could go in a loop of dropping off and just moving them along faster in and out. um as far as like during their busier time. >> So I I can hit that real quick. So

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around here, even though I didn't testify today, coming through this parking area at the bottom by the building, there is a loop and there's actually a port kosher for a drop off under the building to keep moving into the either one of these parking lots. So that's provided just as you you thought

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would be good to have. >> Yes. Okay. That's because I can't see that from the plan. >> Um I appreciate that. And also I just wanted to know what will be we see the parking and for everything but what

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about the actual road accommodation is is it going to be I I know I don't drive there all the time but I know whenever I drive into that area it can get quite congested and

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I was like wondering will there be a a light to let >> in and out? We have a traffic engine. We have a traffic engineer who talked to to all that. >> Okay. >> But there definitely won't be a light. The the >> the county wouldn't approve one. But

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he'll talk to the traffic movements. >> Okay. So like if I go there and it's Ramadan and there's a hundred cars coming out, I'm stuck sitting there waiting. >> Yes, ma'am. Just like everybody else.

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Um, and no one has thought of maybe a little bit something better for that. >> We're going to have a whole witness. We're going to have a witness, a traffic engineer's going to talk about all that coming up. >> Okay. That's what I thought he was. >> No, no, he's an engineer. >> That's different. >> Okay. I apologize. That's what I thought

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you you could answer. All right. Thank you. >> Okay. Then then we'll we'll close the public and we'll take the next witness. Uh, Yogesh Mystery. >> Thank you, Mr. Arman. I'll just get you fired up there. It's

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There you go. >> Yogish, you're still under oath. >> Yes, I am. >> Why don't you give your for the record give your name and uh your profession? >> Yogish Mystri licensed architect in the state of New Jersey and I've testified here many times. >> Then we we qualified him, didn't we?

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>> We did. He testified at length. All right, Mr. Mystery, the reason you're back here is because you have put an exhibit up um that shows a different layout of prayer rugs. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> So, tell tell us um how you what

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happened that that prompted you to do this? Yeah, I I think there was a a long discussion at the last hearing regarding um the number of people indicated on our previous layout and I I guess we took the conservative route when showing the layout that you know we wanted to show

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that we were sort of not exceeding the 458 capacity that this you know the the septic requirements uh limit you to. So that was the the basis of the original uh design or or the exhibit and they

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were essentially 3x3 squares that were placed within this open prayer space within you know a few rows and and kind of columns and that's that was the limit and we thought we were being conservative. I think um you know I guess you could always look at it the other way where if we showed this one

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first you might have said well what if you maxed it out you know so I guess we're we're here today to kind of show the uh sort of a more realistic uh approach of how they use the space. This was the layout I'm I'm referring to is

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um an exhibit called A201 alt rug layout dated March 31st 2026. Uh it's showing the prayer spaces um highlighted with uh kind of red boxes and those red each red

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box is a 3ft x 6 ft uh rug or you know kind of a mat and that's an area of you know this is again with discussions with the applicant of how they use the space and um you know how they how people would kind of be scattered throughout

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the the prayer area. And obviously when you if you go there it's not going to be so systematic. Not everybody's putting their rug exactly where it's shown. But you know this we thought we thought this was a fair representation of how you know sort of a comfortable layout of of

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rugs and you know like humans sitting in a sort of prostrated position on the floor. Um so there's 150 rugs shown. Um you know the the kind of broken up into two halls. the left hall, the larger one is the men's and the the smaller one is

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the women's is 90 in the men's and the 60 in the in the women's. Um, and we we thought that was a fair uh representation there. There's uh a ways kind of around the perimeter and down the middle of between 5 to 6 feet and then um the kind of the spaces in

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between uh kind of vertically was 30 in and and the other direction uh was 1 ft between the the rugs. So, um, you know, I think the testimony last time was that, uh, the 3x3 boxes we had shown it, nobody sits like that. You know, you're

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not sort of on top of each other. It's not a sort of a practical way to, um, pray. And, you know, this is more representative of how they are actually use the space. So, again, this is kind of maxing this out. And, you know, on a daily basis, people are going to come

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in. If there's only 50 people here, then, you know, they're going to kind of take their own space and kind of, you know, they want to pray in in sort of some peace. They don't want to pray when somebody's right on top of them, you know, two inches away. So, um, you know, this this is kind of a more practical

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representation of that. >> Um, Yogesh, I want to be really clear on this. Your initial, um, layout showing 458 prayer rogues, was that based purely on the septic limitation per 24

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hours as opposed to anything that the client told you about how many people would be praying at one time. >> Yes. I mean, we really were just trying to show that it we were within the the limit of the 458. >> And those weren't rugs. They were just kind of sort of a 3x3 designation of what a human would take up sitting down.

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>> Okay. And the 150 you're showing now is consistent with the highest number that the client has said in his statement of proposed use would be praying at any one time. >> Yes. Yes. >> And have you also um gained knowledge

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from the client that after the formal prayer meeting finishes that worshippers go into corners and have private prayers by themselves or in small groups? That that's my understanding of what the how the applicant uh represented their sort of procedures on their prayers.

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>> Right. So that wouldn't that wouldn't necessarily show where the prayer rugs are, but rather another way of explaining why they need this uh worship space. >> Yes. Yes. >> That's all the questions I have. >> Any board questions? >> I do. Um and I ask this out of respect.

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Um, does every worshipper need a prayer mat when when they're in service? >> I'm not sure if I could answer that that question. I don't know the I don't want to say the wrong answer there.

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>> In other words, do they do they pray without using the prayer mat? >> Sure. Could they? So, if >> I have not been given such information that they typically would use a prayer mat. >> Okay. So is there is there a possibility that there there could be 150 prayer

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mats, but then also um uh um some some cbrants there that would not be using a prayer mat. >> Are are you getting to a point where there could be more than 150 people here at a time? >> That wasn't my question. I was asking you whether you can you can

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>> Would they be So could you could you ask me ask that question again? I don't know if Mr. mystery I didn't understand. So I don't know if he does. >> I I'm not familiar super familiar with the the um Islamic faith. So can someone pray in a mosque without using um a

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permat? >> There is a carpet there with a printed tapestry there and then carpet the print. They don't have to bring their own. Okay. >> Did you youngest you hear what he said? >> Yeah. He he he basically said that, you know, they have carpets there. You don't

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bring your own. And, you know, they there's, in fact, there's closets up along the kind of the top portion of the prayer hall where they have the the mats. >> I I didn't ask about closets. I asked if people could could go to the mosque and and pray without having one of these 150

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um prayer carpets. >> I don't know. They >> I I think what Yogish just said was that there are prayer mats in the closets if you don't bring one. But there's also carpeting that they could they could uh kneel on. >> So So the technically the answer is yes.

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>> Yeah. If you're asking whether there's a requirement that prayer should be on a mat, uh I don't think so. >> Thank you. >> Okay. All right. I get I'm sorry I wasn't understanding where your question was going.

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Maybe I could have asked that a little bit clearer if I I had some more understanding, but that's why I tried to ask for clarity. >> Any other questions? >> Yeah, I just have a question on the dimension. Um, you're using a a 3x six

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3T x 6 foot rug. >> Yes. >> So, where where did that figure come from? >> That was just discussions with the applicant on, you know, how much space they would need for a typical rug. Okay. All right. Thank you.

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>> Any others? >> Anything? >> Good evening, Mr. Misty. Um, you said the 3x6 dimension came from a discussion with the applicant. Are you aware the applicant testified at the first hearing that the mats were 3x3

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>> feet? That I don't recall that. No. >> Well, I'll I'll stay for the record. That's in the minutes. So, which is it? Is it 3x3 or 3x six? Because there's a big difference. >> If it's a 3x3 rug, it would just be enough for sitting on. It wouldn't be

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enough to kind of lie down and pray. Now, you described this exhibit as showing a realistic layout, meaning if you went into, let's say, another um of this applicant

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centers, is are you likely to see a layout similar to this with 3x6 mats spaced out by a foot? >> I'm going object to that. I don't know how mystery could Mr. chemistry could say what is in a different mosque

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of anybody's let alone this applicant. >> Well, he's providing testimony as to the applicant's use. I think it's a fair question. And he described it as a realistic depiction of how this space is being used. >> When I said realistic, I meant in terms

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of human dimensions and what people need in terms of space to, you know, lie down and pray. That's what the realistic dimension. I've never been to, you know, a mosque to say that this is how it would look, you know, >> right? >> If I walked into a mosque,

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>> the idea was to take 150 and fit it perfectly into this space. >> It's or is it just a coincidence that it fits perfectly into that space? >> No, you you could fit more, you could fit less. I could have spaced it out even more if I wanted to, but I just

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wanted to show what was I think a a fair I mean you could you could question the dimensions if you want, but I think that you know the the the rug sizes and the clearances and things kind of speak for themselves and it I mean the fact that it worked out to 150 is is irrelevant. I think but

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>> it's irrelevant or isn't that exactly wasn't that the most relevant point that you're you're expecting no more than 150 therefore you really couldn't have more than this? >> No, I I I think 150 I I think the question that came up last time was, you

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know, why would you have such a big prayer hall if you only had 150 people? Now I'm showing that this is how they're really using it. So >> Okay, fair enough. Um Mr. Misty, you you you designed the space for the prior application, the data baran application.

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Is that correct? >> Yes, I did. >> Um, and the worship area for that space was about a thousand square feet less if I have my my notes correct here. Does that ring a bell? >> That's probably correct. Yeah.

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>> Um, is it fair to say you could probably fit 150 mats into that space, that prior space? I don't I don't remember exactly how that laid out. And >> I mean, if you just take the dimensions, >> I I can't say for sure whether it would

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fit or not. I I don't know. We didn't do a study on that. >> Okay. Why would submit to this board that you could quite comfortably fit 150 mats of this dimension >> objection to the prior space? Which raises the question, why was this why

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would this applicant increase the worship area? >> Mr. Chairman, are we in summation now? >> He his testimony didn't get into the philosophy about why it's bigger or not bigger. He presented what he had to

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present in order to fit in the facility that's proposed. And I don't think he was testifying to that anyway. >> Okay. I raised the question and I think it's an important one and I will come back to it. Um,

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what would happen if there were more than 150 worshippers with mats that size? Would you just bunch them up? >> I mean, I don't think we have more than 150, you know, worshippers. >> It's possible that you could if the

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congregation grows. Correct. >> I mean, anything is possible, but I that's not what the applicant has testified to. In fact, they have, you know, sign significantly less than this most of the time. >> And so the the 150 mats um that would be

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for special events um which could occur five times a day. Is that right? >> Objection, Mr. Chairman. This this witness is not qualified to answer that. >> Not his testimony. >> Okay.

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And so would you be prepared to limit the occupancy to 150 mats? >> Mr. Chairman, the proposed use is a exhibit A1 and Mr. Mystery is not in a position to vary that. >> Who is in a position to do that?

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>> Mr. Chairman, A1 speaks for itself. We've committed to what's on A1. >> You said it. I don't know what else I can add to it. >> Well, I think that's a question that the applicant needs to answer. and you're you're you're not recalling the applicant but providing the the applicant's testimony instead for the

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board. So, um I'm still unclear on whether the mat size is 3x3 or 3x6 because this seems to be a big difference between what the applicant actually testified to at the first hearing um with respect to 3x3 size mats which would mean that you

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could fit double the number virtually into that space. Miss Bailey, may may I just interject because I I I I think I share a little bit of your concern. Um, and I was hesitant to speak to it because it's, you know, a Google search.

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I assume it's correct. You know, I loo looked up what is the typical size of a a Muslim prayer rug and it said it was um I think it was 2 and 1/2 by 4 and a half just two to four feet by up to 2

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and 1/2 by 4 and a half. So um that's what Google's telling me. Google's suggesting it's more than 3x3, but it's also suggesting it's smaller than 3x6. So you know I'm wondering if you know and m Mr. mystery is going on what he's

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been told by his client. And so I don't I think his testimony is that he can't verify that that's the right size. That's what he was told that they need. I'm wondering if we need to have somebody under oath testify to what is the what is the actual size of a Muslim prayer rug because I think this exhibit

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is very important. It speaks to the intensificity of the use for for this religion. How many people can they reasonably fit in this space with the with the space demands that the space requirements of their prayer rugs? And it also speaks to the parking variance.

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You know, as a you know, the one gentleman before was mentioning the you know, why would the board grant a variance? Well, the ordinance says it's one space for every 15 square feet. Well, that might be at the end of the day, the board may decide that's that is too high because if they're laying out

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rugs, it's going to be, you know, the people are taking up more space than 15 square ft. But what is the right number? I'm not sure if I'm based on, you know, what I understand based on Google, 3x6 is not the standard size of a prayer

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rug. I'm not testifying to that. Somebody should. >> M Mr. Chairman, if I if I could address that and Okay, this is with due respect, Mr. Healey, I've said this so many times. Um, I doubt there is some

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uh rule on how large a prayer mat is. I do know that if you put prayer mats, squeeze them next to each other, you could get more people into this space than the applicant is promising they will not exceed. Our testimony and our

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record is clear as to how many people are going to be in this uh worship area at one time and whether you can squeeze in 300 prayer mats or under only 100 prayer mats. The applic Mr. Healey, the size, the exact size of

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a prayer mat is secondary to how many people we're actually going to have on this space because if we're 2x4 or 4x4 or 3x3, you put them next to each other, you could probably squeeze two, 300 people in here. But we're saying we're not going to do that because when we

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worship, we have the formal worship service and then people go into different areas and have private prayers and they need the space for that purpose. So I apologize. I miss Bailey, you were asking. >> Thank you, Mr. Healey. No, you you asked the question, I think better than I

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could. And um notwithstanding that Mr. Schwarz has just provided fact testimony that really should be coming from the applicant and the board should disregard it. Um again, I'm not sure we'd even be here if you weren't seeking an over 80% variance

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from the required parking. And that's triggered by an an over thousand square foot increase in the worship area. If you're proposing that fewer attendees are going to be attending the worship area, why does it need to be larger?

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That's that's the question that everybody is asking and it's really not been explained. That's all I have for now. >> Okay. We will now open again to the public. Is there anyone who would like to ask the architect questions based on

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the testimony that you just heard Shampi 15 Hasbro drive and I'll ask the question my husband was asking before so the building size is approximately 20,000 square ft we are seeing usage here of 7,981

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um which is less you know like less than half of what the building size actually is. As they say you know if you build it they will come. Is that the plan? Are they planning to scale up? Why do we need a 20k building? Why can't it be

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smaller if it is only going to accommodate 150 people max on certain days? >> I don't know if that's his Yeah. Question. >> No, that's that's not Mr. Mystery's area. >> He's >> But we talked about the size of the

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building, the number of people, and that's what I'm asking. Why do we have a building size that is more than double of what is required? >> That that I doubt that it was his initial decision on the size of the

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building. What we're asking now is for you to ask questions based on what you heard him say in over the last 20 minutes. The testimony concerning mainly concerning this the mats. >> Yeah, I understand the mats which is

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size fitted because obviously what we are learning it may not be as large as needed but again he's not the right person to answer it because the applicant is not here who's supposed to answer it. But my question is again the entire building size which is what

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will dictate you know how many uh parking spaces you will have eventually and how many people are going to show up. >> Okay Mr. >> why do we have something that is more than double of what has been shown here projected here. >> Mr. Chairman um if I can refer the um

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questioner to page 12 in the minutes where Mr. Razi testified that they have mosques in Piscato and Edison as well. Um how they come up with the number 60 as a maximum number. Mr. Razi indicated they looked at the people in the area,

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the families and collective numbers. He said that they have other mosques in the area that they were generating the same numbers there. Um Mr. Rozie indicated that the numbers were smaller at that time in Somerset than they were in Pisces and Edison and that's and so his testimony was um explaining why they

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need this space for 50 or 60 people at a time. So look in the minutes on the um on the board's website and you'll see on page 12 an explanation from the applicant as to why they want this space. >> Uh I think I'm miscommunicating or not being able to explain to you what I'm

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asking. I'm asking I understand you know where they came up with the number 60 and 150 on uh special days. What I'm asking is the requirement in size for a congregation that is only 60 as projected here is about 8,000 square ft.

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Why do we have a building that is going to be double more than double that size? >> Okay. >> Is that for purpose of scaling up eventually? >> That's not his testimony, >> Mr. Chairman. But again, I think I can answer that question because I think it's shown on this exhibit. I I if if I

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if I understand what she's saying it the worship area is that 7981 square ft. >> The parking requirement is based on the size of the worship area. >> That generates the parking demand. the rest of the of the building. There's

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storage closets, hallways, rug closets, bathrooms, things like that's the that's the additional square footage. >> That's a hallway. The the reception area bathrooms don't generate a parking demand. The parking demand is generated

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by the size of the worship area. So that if I think I'm answering the right the question, the worship area is about 8,000 square feet. The remainder is that other space. >> So about double that space is needed for everything else and it is not for scaling up.

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>> Well, I can't answer that. I'm just explaining the difference. The applicant will have to answer that. I'm asking >> but we can't we can't grow the prayer hall any question now. Perfect. Yes, >> we the other support spaces like Mark said are are there they're part of the

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support spaces but the prayer hall itself is a fixed size. We can't increase that unless we came back in front of this board. >> So you cannot increase the prayer hall. >> No, >> that was my question. >> If they increased the the if they they went and increase the prayer hall even

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within the existing footprint that would trigger a large larger parking requirement, they'd have to come back to this board. >> Yeah, >> that was my >> I'm sorry I misunderstood your question. I guess I totally missed it. I'm sorry. >> That's no no problems. >> And Mark, I just wanted >> any other people wish to ask. I just

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wanted Marker. >> Yes. I just wanted Mark to clarify and the parking in this case because they're not seats is based on square footage. So regardless of what

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how many rugs are in there, the parking technically is based on the the square footage. >> Yeah. Yeah. So what the what the the parking our ordinance requirement how our ordinance requires that we measure

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the required parking spaces in an open worship area is one space for every 15 square ft. So they need that variance. What then the applicant needs to do then is prove based on the nature of their use and I think part of that is this

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exhibit that they have sufficient parking because of the you know the details of their of their use and their operation. >> Okay. Thank you. and and also since they're they're looking for the parking variance based on these numbers that you presented

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there they're right now agreeing even though we didn't condition it yet but there really never can be more than 150 people in that worship hall at one time ever because then they would need more

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parking all their parking is based on 150 >> I'm I'm sure Mr. Schwarz would say that's been his that's that's what they're presenting to the board. >> I'm just >> the 150. >> Did I say that before >> a few times? >> I'm just confirming that we're all on the same page.

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>> That's that's their testimony. >> Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead. >> No. Uh again, my name is Joti and I'm from Five Arrowhead Lane. Uh I don't think my question is related to your testimony. It is just a clarification.

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Uh we are talking about just the worship area which is supposed to be enough for 150 people. Last time we also talked about the classrooms in the back. So I just wanted to know if the building

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occupancy 50 is just 50 worshippers or is it worshippers plus the students in the classroom? there's motion >> the u the minutes um say that plus the um statement of proposed use um state

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that there will not be classes there's no school there was that the imam who will be living there or a guest imam may have small prayer meetings or small small teaching meetings but there's no school there's no class there's no class >> then something must have changed because

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last time we were here the when we discussed the plan it was clearly mentioned that the last two rooms over there were classrooms for Sunday school or something like that. >> No, there's not going to be any school. >> So, okay.

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>> Uh then I must have misunderstood. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Next. >> If I could just clarify on the floor plan, it says classroom. >> No, that was I think that was my testimony originally. It was my misunderstanding that they're not being

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used as classrooms. Okay. But the exhibit that you presented did say classroom this evening. >> The plan still says classroom. Correct. You know, we could rename that in a different manner. But >> what I just want to be clear based on her question that we weren't depicting school versus classroom that her intent

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was it was a classroom. >> Understood. Yeah. We could clarify parking. No, I I would consider I mean even if it was a um I mean if it was a a a completely separate use then like we

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had do have situations where there's a house of worship and on the same campus there's also a full school. Well, sure that would that would be a separate parking requirement. If it was your your typical house of worship that you know um happened to have some classrooms for

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Sunday school that I I would not count that as I would say the worship area is still generating the parking requirement. >> Okay. >> That the classrooms are accessory to that use. >> I I just received a clarification with my client. They are discussion rooms. They're not classrooms or no Sunday

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school. They are discussion rooms with the EMOP. So the use in those rooms would probably be made up of simultaneously made up of some of the people that are there for the worship. >> Correct. Small group

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>> and that means that it wouldn't bring additional people at the same time. >> That's right. >> I mean go ahead. Wait. No, wait. Uh I want to make sure that that the any exhibits that are attached um now call

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those rooms discussion rooms rather than uh classrooms. >> We can change that. >> Good. Okay. Go ahead. >> Again, my name is Deva Vuri from 72 Walmart Avenue. Uh if I may ask the questions to the

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>> speaking architect, right? Move it up so you can stand. Uh I don't want to disrupt the whole Okay. Uh so can you please uh enlighten me sir like according to the township code is there

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an a requirement between each rug >> in the rows and also in the column both >> there's no there's no specific requirement from a code perspective. Now there there needs to be a ways for just general egress around the you know

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>> because that layout reasonable layout if the if the inside area is 7,900 according to my math just laying out reasonably would take about 4,000 square foot just the rugs alone and if you take into building codes and fire code rules

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various rules I can site here it's going to violate all the rules ju just 150 prayer rugs six 6x3 each 18 square foot with the reasonable spacing is going to take more than 60% of the available space.

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>> Are you saying we need to decrease the number of rugs there? >> I I'm not saying I'm I'm arguing how is it engineeringly arrived at and it it's a it's a potential fire hazard. >> It's this would meet the building codes if if that's your question. I mean, you

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know, we wouldn't get this approved unless it met the building codes. So now if I see visually right each prayer rug is next to each other they are like touching each other that's not how you reasonably place in any public setting there should be a reasonable aisle space

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column wise and row wise and that goes over 60 to 65% of the available floor space how do we reconcile that I I I want the board to take all this into account seriously because once some accident happens I'm going to come back to this board with every it in hand

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because these are serious community issues. >> The building the building department wouldn't approve this >> viewed by fire and everybody that's appropriate >> the occupancy and the egress and all of that is handled at the time of building permit. There's very specific requirement. This would be an assembly

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use and subject to whatever the requirements are uh for an assembly use. It wouldn't get approved and built. But but but I see it's it's quite reasonable to pose a question. They are lying next to each other like like packed sal

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sardines in a box. It's not reasonable for public use. Moreover, it's a sacred place. I am not against I'm against a church, a temple and a mosque, a sports facility, a recreation facility. Period. I'm against everything because that's a

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s that that road has a historical significance to the township. The America has two things. >> Abundance of land, abundance of transportation. There are plenty of free space available everywhere. Why are we packing it like sadines in the middle

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of a scenic roadway? Look at look at how the how the occupants are going to be sitting if there's single fire. I'm going to come to the board with with with the specific why there's proper due diligence and precautions are

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not taken into account. >> Mr. Chairman, in just the interest of moving this along, um there's no question for this this uh witness. No, >> I I I haven't received an answer for that layout. >> Do you have a question? >> Yes. That the layout seems unreasonable.

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It's more like a warehouse than a public place ownership. Sir, respectfully, what do you base that on? >> Respectfully, see the visual, sir. The there are next to there's not even one ft difference between each rug. And if there's an emergency, the according to

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the fire code and the IBC rules, there should be a reasonable space between column wise and the row wise. I don't think the engineer recorded for all that. >> It will meet building code. I mean, it's no different than all these seats that are next to each other and there's an

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aisle weight. I mean, there's no space between this seat and the next seat. So, >> there's a foot of >> Yeah. Well, we have that. We have 30 in between each each rug. >> I don't see that. So, if I take 30 in, it's about 7,000 square foot. >> No, no, no. It's it's indicated right here. This is drawn. It's a scale.

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There's 30 in between and is 1 foot on the the other direction. >> No, where I I don't see 30 inches anywhere. >> It says right here 2'6. this clear. I mean, it's do the math and it's it's over 60% of

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usage. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> Hi, Alex Strauss again. Um, Mr. Mystery Architect. Um, so you were talking about um, everyone's asking about the size of the building. So in your expertise as an

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architect, you could conceivably shrink the building. Is that correct? >> Yeah. I mean, anything is possible to do, >> right? And you could work with other people like Mr. Ardman, engineer, etc. to have things like a Ramadan tent. There's a Wikipedia entry just for that

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on special events because we keep saying, well, we're not going to need all the space. You could have a tent that's heated, of course, Ramadan in the winter, right? Um, is that conceivable? >> Well, I'm not sure if the applicant wants to spend all this money and then have >> quite his testimony either.

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>> Um, Mr. Schwarz just mentioned the EOM. Does the imam own 50 cars? Mr. Schwarz, >> you're supposed to be >> questioning the architect. Okay. >> On his testimony. >> Okay. I just curious about the parking

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and everything. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? Then we'll close the public move along then. >> Can I make a comment? Um, you know, just I guess the whole testimony was so focused and just mark for uh, you know,

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the size of the rug. I think uh, you know, it really needs to go by what the occupancy is because, you know, just just for general knowledge, maybe a rug can be 5t by 10 feet worth $20,000 and handwoven with the best portion rug or

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it can be, you know, you just spray on your jacket. it is the size of the rug is really not relevant at all. So I just wanted people to understand that that u it's based on how many people we expect which is sort of unrelated to the size

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of the rug. So all this attention is sort of neither here nor there on the exact size of the rug. It's you could find them in any size but you know but it just it's not a

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standard. It's not even required as >> good. Thanks for that insight. >> Mr. Hack, we have um submitted two new plans today. Do we need to mark them at evidence or is that just because they've been submitted that they're part of the

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record? >> They're part of the record if they're part of your submission. So we have to mark it separately. Okay. I tend to forget about these things in court and you know I just want to be sure. All right. Um I'd like to call um Mr. Doug

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Piniac who is our traffic engineer. >> Mr. Pontiac. >> Yes. >> Can you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give before this board is truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Can you just repeat your name and spell

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your last name for the record, please? >> Sure. It's Douglas Piniac. P is in Peter, O L Y N I A K. >> Thank you. Mr. Piniac, what is your profession? >> Yes, I'm a licensed engineer of the state of New Jersey with my specialty in traffic engineering.

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>> Are you employed by the firm of Dolan Dean? >> I am. Could you provide your qualifications and experience in your profession? >> Sure. Uh, I have a bachelor's of science in civil engineering from Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Uh, I graduated with that degree in 1998. Since that time, I've been working

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in the field of traffic engineering. Uh, like I said, I've been licensed for approximately 22 years within the state of New Jersey. My license is uh, current and up to date. Uh, I've testified as an expert witness in the field of traffic before approximately 120 municipal

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boards. Sounds good enough to move on. >> Thank you. >> Have you testified in front of this board? >> I have. I think it's been possibly well over five years, but I've been here on a number of occasions. >> Um, Mr. Pliak, are you familiar with the application and also familiar with the

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plans that have submitted and the resolution of approval for the previous application affecting his property? >> Yes. >> What what else have what what have you done in connection with preparation for this uh testimony? >> Sure. Uh, yeah. to review the peak hour uh traffic associated with this

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application. Uh Dolan and DNR office prepared a traffic impact study that was dated August 11th of 2025. >> Wait, right here. That's very interesting. Did Did someone go out and and um count cars?

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>> Yes, we did >> at the site. >> Correct. >> Oh, good. >> Well, along uh South Middlebush Road. Okay. as the site is currently, you know, just a single family home with gravel. >> Why don't you explain what what what your office did? >> Yeah, absolutely. I was going to get

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into it. Um, I mean, just as by way of background, as you heard from just a little bit of testimony, uh, because it sets up the framework of our traffic report, uh, typical weekday operations for the center will include prayer sessions at sunrise, uh, sunset, once during the midday, and two times during

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the evening. And as we've discussed in great detail, we're looking at up to 60 attendees for your standard daily session five times a day. So initially to project site traffic that we anticipate attending these sessions, we looked at those

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attendance numbers as well as typical parking requirements as Mr. Ardman stated earlier of about one vehicle per three attendees. So, with 60 attendees and three people per vehicle, you're looking at 20 vehicles entering and 20 vehicles exiting during those prayer sessions.

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>> Where do you get that formula? >> Oh, sorry. >> Uh yeah, that's a standard parking requirement for houses of worship. Uh three three um worshippers, attendees, parishioners per vehicle. and and the the number of parishioners

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uh that are thought to um attend this church once it's bu built where where did that come from? >> Uh that was the 60 members and yeah that was provided by the applicant. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So we so initially we looked at 20

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vehicles entering and 20 vehicles exiting. However, in order to perform a more conservative analysis when we reviewed the driveway operations, we looked at uh two people per vehicle, which would then uh create a um a trip generation of 30 entering and 30 exiting. So, we we did a little bit of a

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conservative analysis uh assuming there'd be fewer people per vehicle. That equals uh 60 turning movements over the course of an hour, which is about one every minute either be entering or exiting, which is not a very high number. Uh and it's also likely that the

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volumes could possibly be even lower as families tend to have uh more than three people in a car and small groups could car poolool uh and potentially fit more than three people in a car. So we felt that the 30 entering and 30 exiting was conservative with respect to analysis of

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the uh potential driveway operations. I'd like to add that the Institute of Transportation Engineers as well as NJ DOT consider 100 hourly trips that are new as a significant um level of traffic, excuse me. Uh that could uh

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require an analysis as it may have off track impacts. In this case, uh this site would generate uh during its standard day um below that number about 60% of that number demonstrating that it will not have over the course of your standard day substantial impacts uh off

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track. >> Okay, wait a minute. Couple things. Yes. >> Um your mouth is too far away from the microphone. Ah, >> I thought I was projecting, but >> Well, sorry about that. >> These these are not really that great at projecting. So, it's important. Number

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two, I would like to go back over what you just said because it it came at me a little fast and I'm sure the other people here felt the same way. >> So now you you in the beginning you the first thing

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you did is you identified when these services are going to take place and you said one was at dawn, >> correct? >> Geez, dawn. And then the next one was at noon. >> Well, I didn't list them in

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chronological order, but uh there's one at sunrise, there's two during the midday, then one at um uh suns uh two during the evening, and then one at sunset. >> Oh, that's Well, and that would almost mean that I'm a little confused. The the

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thought of sunset being before the evening doesn't I don't really think that it works that way. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe just to clarify, >> here's why though. Here's why I'm asking this. I want to understand whether there's overlap between people coming in

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and people going out. >> No, great question. The time frames, uh, estimates that we've been provided for the morning session are about 6:00 a.m. Obviously, it's dependent on sunrise. the midday session 100 p.m. the evening sessions five and seven and then the

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late session which could be the sunset session depending on you know if it's summer or not you know somewhere up around nine o'clock so there's no prayer session that falls within two hours of each other >> I'm not sure that I agree with that well maybe because the you have the morning

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one the the dawn one then you have a midday one I'm still kind of struggling with what that is that that like noon Uh 1 p.m. >> 1 p.m. Okay, thanks. And then then there's then there's what?

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>> 5:00 p.m. >> 5:00 p.m. >> 700 p.m. >> 7 p.m. >> And then that sunset session that was in the evening. So So then there are they're basically two hours apart >> between start times. Correct.

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>> Right. And how long does it take for the the group to clear the parking lot and and to leave? Did you do you come up with some idea of that? >> Yeah, it's my understanding that um you

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know it's about a half an hour to uh congregate and get there. >> Prayer session is a half an hour. >> Also true, but I mean to get there you have some people that arrive a little bit early, some people that are like stragglers. So about a half an hour. Then the prayer session is approximately a half hour as well. Okay.

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>> And then that exiting process is around a half an hour. >> Okay, good. That was the stuff that was going too fast. >> Yeah. So, sorry. So, you're not going to have a influx of people coming in while people are leaving the prior session. >> Yeah. Okay. >> No, that's that's that's important. Sir,

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pardon me if um and I have a question and if you answered my apologies and if I missed it, but did you in your study um counted the traffic and cars according

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to all of these sessions or was it like at a particular time of the day just once? >> Uh no, I I'll get into that. That was actually my next point of business. Um, I was just, you know, discussing the trip generation that we anticipate seeing coming in and out of the site.

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And then what we were going to do is review how we analyze the operations of the driveway with that site traffic. And in order to do so, we counted traffic along uh South Middle Bush Road using an automatic uh traffic recorder. And those are the tubes that lie across the road.

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And they count the northbound and southbound traffic on South Middle Bush. And we had that out there for uh a week essentially Monday through Friday. and that was able to provide us with a breakdown of hourby- hour volumes northbound and southbound for those um

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for those worship sessions. >> When did you do these um these uh >> trip trip counting? >> Those recorders were placed out there uh in Octo Monday through Friday uh October 7th through October 11th in 2024.

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>> Okay. And not during any kind of um uh bad weather or um holiday or anything like that? >> No. And um you know and the reason why we do like a Monday through Friday is that we're able to like take an average of every day every day of the week traffic's not the same. There could be an accident

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upstream downstream that causes you know additional volumes for certain hours. So you know we we didn't study the absolute highest volumes we saw and we didn't study the lowest volumes you saw. We tried to establish a a typical standard day over the course of a of a week. What we found from those volumes, and

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it's not not a surprise, that the busiest um hour along South Middlebush Road is at 5:00 p.m. hour. Obviously, the evening commute. So, >> is that 5:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. >> Correct? So, um that becomes our

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critical hour with respect to when uh the roadway and the site is at its busiest. uh because generally we looked at each one of those prayer sessions as having the same trip generation volume, but it's the roadway volume that's going to create the critical hour. In that case, it's 5:00 pm uh which had

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essentially by far the most traffic over those prayer session hours. So, what we did is then we projected a future condition with the site driveway in operation. And in order to create the future condition, we applied a 1% growth factor to the um which is an NJOT growth

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factor for Somerset County to the volumes along South Middle Road. >> See, you were doing great until you threw a a bunch of initials at me there in the middle of that sentence. What did you say? >> Yeah. Um we the facility is not going to open, you

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know, today based on our numbers. So what we try and do is take in background growth for just um you know other projects that may be in the area development. So we apply a growth factor. >> Okay. >> In order to get that growth factor, we use data that's provided by the New Jersey Department of Transportation.

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They have data uh by county. So obviously for Somerset County for this type of roadway, it was a 1% increase in traffic. So we applied that for two years to those volumes. >> Okay. >> Then we routed those 30 vehicles into and out of the site based on the standard day. uh following the traffic

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flow pattern that we found on South Middle Bush Road. Uh we we put those on the roadway network at the driveway and then we performed what is called a level of service analysis. Uh it's likely that you've heard that before from other applications, but levels of service are

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um rankings A through F uh based on delay of turning movements. A uh is an exceptional level of service like a report card. uh very minimal delay and F is when a intersection or a turning movement is operating beyond its capacity there there's more vehicles than the capacity of the roadway can

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handle. So we used software, synchro software to analyze that driveway. And we found that during that critical peak hour with the 30 vehicles entering and 30 vehicles exiting the exiting uh volumes during that critical 5:00 p.m. peak hour will operate at level service D uh which is accept which is an

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acceptable levels of service and actually pretty well for a lot of locations within New Jersey. And the um inbound movements would operate at level service A. You know, essentially very low delay for movements coming into the site. What exactly what does D mean?

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>> Yeah, D is a delay in seconds. In this case, uh it's about a 30 second delay uh per vehicle. >> So then does that does that mean that vehicles are stacking up behind one another? Well,

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not trying to get in because you said even a lefthand turn, you're not having you're not having a delay problem. a lefthand turn at five o'clock. >> Yeah. No. Uh left turns uh you're only competing against the northbound flow of traffic on South Middle Bush. And based

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on the volumes for that uh approach, uh you know, it's a very low volume of entering vehicles, a maximum of about 18 we projected entering, there's sufficient um capacity within that turning movement to make it into the driveway without uh any substantial delay.

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>> 18 over what period of time? That would be over the course of the um people arriving at the >> That's the one half hour arrival, right? >> Correct. And now this is really important. >> I'm anticipating some of your questions because it's >> all right. >> I want to understand too the DLE, which

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turn is the DLE. The DLE is the exiting movement coming out of the subject driveway. That's the left turn and right turn onto South Middlebush. So, while you know there's that 30 secondond delay, it's not impacting South Middlebush itself. It's just people at the stop sign exiting the

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um the worship center onto uh onto the roadway. So, so to that statement, I don't necessarily agree having used South Middle Bush every single day. Okay. Anytime that you come from any of

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the other merging roads, even two cars take more than a minute or two or three just to make a left or a right turn depending upon the time of the day. Second, just to say that it is impacting someone only who's making the turn is

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not true because the person who's uh traveling northbound or southbound on this road is also impacted with uh that number of traffic. And when you have 30 cars coming into that traffic um every single day,

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every single day at the peakest hour on that road, I assure you that I don't believe this math holds. At least that's my opinion. >> Yeah. No, I mean, and that's what the analysis shows. I've been out there on a number of occasions. I certainly haven't

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timed um my ability to make turns onto South Middle Bush from from some of the side streets and driveways, but um you know what what you experience sometimes is yeah, there's a steady stream of traffic and it makes it difficult to make a a left turn, but there are uh

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northbound brakes which allow someone to make a right turn. Uh and then there's those instances where there's actually a gap in traffic where multiple vehicles can leave in a short period of time. So there may be a vehicle that takes 1 minute, but then there's a vehicle that takes 2 seconds. So then you average and

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get that 30 seconds. So um there there's yes, there's certainly a lot of traffic on South Middle Bush with the ability to process this low level of volume >> between 5 and 6:30. There's no gap in vehicles on that road.

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>> I Okay. At least >> I don't agree with that cuz I'm going from Mwell to 27. >> Mhm. that road that portion segment is bumper to bumper. >> Okay, this is a practical example at

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least I as user face. So, >> I you may have done it more than I have, but in the number of times that I've I've been out there, um you know, I am on the road often for other, you know, meetings at this time. I I fully understand that it's a busy roadway and if someone is, you know, turning out of

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a site or a home or a side street, uh there are times when when there's queuing that takes place, but when those movements aren't happening, there's a free flow of traffic that I've witnessed along South Middlebush. What >> I have another question at what point in

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time at or what traffic flow let's assume this is approved and now it becomes a chronic problem. What happens at what level of traffic will we need a

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traffic light there then? >> Yeah. Uh well South Middleush Road is a a Somerset County roadway. It's under their jurisdiction. So they would, you know, the the application is before them and they haven't provided their review yet. However, they would be the ones that would need to review and approve

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any warrants for traffic signalization. And this facility would not reach those levels to generate. It's it's based on um a peak hour volume um 4hour volumes, even eight hour volumes to meet a couple warrants. and the site, which is the

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minor approach, is not going to um experience that level of traffic that would trigger those warrants. South Middle Bush during its busiest times, likely does. Um but similar to the other upstream and downstream intersections, uh they just don't meet the warrants for for a signal, particularly a place like

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this where over the course of um you know, the times when there's not services, there's there's not going to be very much traffic at all. >> How about consideration? I can't tell from the uh map that we got, but would there be any

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benefit to establishing a left turn lane coming out of the driveway so that the right turn wouldn't be uh held up? I generally don't like that design. Um because, and I've experienced this recently, I've been on the road a lot.

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Um, when someone's trying to make a right turn, um, you can't see, you know, from your blocks, your sight lines. If I'm trying to make a right onto South Middle Bush and someone's creeping trying to make that left, I can't tell who's coming northbound. So, as far as just like a safety precaution, I

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generally prefer a onelane exit on an unsalized intersection just for just for viewpoint. I I think it's a a safer condition. Mr. Chairman, >> that's why I asked. How about the concept of a of no left turn period? out. No left turn out.

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>> Well, I I do think that if people struggle or have a certain um you know, weight to make that left turn, they'll eventually opt to just make the right turn and self-p police itself. Um I think sometimes when we restrict left turns, um it just creates the ability

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for someone to make a right turn and then make a U-turn and head back the way they wanted to in another driveway, an adjacent property. So, I don't always recommend doing that as well. Um, >> well, they have to go pretty far to to turn right and make a U-turn.

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>> Well, if that's the case, then they may just ignore the turn turn prohibition. >> Yeah. >> Hey, had I asked >> Mr. Chairman? No, I understand. The status with the county right now is that

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back in 2021, there was a discussion of whether there should be a lefthand turn lane and the county said they didn't feel that it was necessary. More recently, in connection with the Indian temple down the road, which apparently is right now not an active project,

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according to Miss Dolan from from Doug's office, they have discussed the lefthand lane for them. um they haven't acted on our application. They want to see what the board does first before they act on the application. So, we don't know if they're going to want to talk about a

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lefthand turn lane or not. That's something that obviously we'll we'll deal with when we're done here and we need to deal with the >> Now, are you talking about a leftand turn lane for turning out of it or into it? Into it. >> Yes. But they

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they've talked about in connection with the Indian temple. They haven't done anything with our application yet. because that was a question that was raised I think by Mr. Healey and that's the or maybe it's the technical coordinating committee >> but according to your testimony a left

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turn in is not really a big problem. >> Yes, I I I would tend to agree with that based on the levels of service and the low volumes of that movement that are anticipated. I don't think a left turn lane is a necessity. Um the county has been um reviewing our application. They

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haven't commented on whether a left turn lane would be uh requested or not, but I think they have requested for other applications along South Middle Brush. >> It wouldn't be a surprise to me if they don't have the rightway to >> There's those there's those type issues yet. I haven't investigated whether or

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not there's, you know, sufficient rightaway along that corridor. >> I mean, we'll have to deal with it, but I I know you did want to hear what's going on with the county, so I'm reporting the up-to-date information. >> Okay. Anything else? Uh, Mr. I I just

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like to ask Mr. Pliniac, um, I'm looking at page four of your, uh, report that has been submitted to the board. Perhaps it would be helpful if you told what the actual numbers were for the peak volume during the peak hour 5 to 6:00 p.m. And

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then in terms of how many cars are going to be added to that volume on on um on the road on South Midbush Road. >> Yeah, that that busiest hour uh the two-way flow uh had 1550 cars over the

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course of that 5 to 6:00 hour. Um >> that's in both directions. Uh that is combined two-way flow. Yes. Um every other hour that we looked at that is associated with our prayer sessions were at least 500 vehicles less than that. So

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that 5:00 hour is by far the busiest when there will be a prayer session. >> Oh go. So now I get to ask a question that neither of you really can answer, but there would probably be somebody here from your group that could provide

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an answer. Why don't we have that instead of crashing through 5:00, why don't we have that uh prayer meeting be at 4:00 and go you four and then to uh seven and then nine. It would seem to me

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that that if the the volume is more than 500 cars less, that might be something that your your client might might want to consider if if there >> Can I answer that question? I don't think it's flexible. I don't think you get to decide when you choose to pray.

419
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But think that those are mandated times at certain times of the day. >> Yeah, I was going to say there's religious reasons for that, not just uh convenience. >> Oh, see I didn't turn my hearing aid up loud enough to hear what you said, but I

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get what he's saying. >> Okay. >> All right. Good. >> Oh, she's her answer was better. Her answer is a lot better. What I said was that I don't think it's flexible like that. It's uh you know sunrise and certain times of the day. >> I thought that's a thought.

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>> I thought the same thing. Why why not just avoid that hour? Well, it's it's easier in other religions than it is in this one. >> Okay. And one of the reasons I asked you that, Mr. Pontiac, is which which lane is it northbound southbound which is

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causing the most stress in terms of a left-hand turn? Uh the southbound volumes uh on South Middle Bush during that hour are um about 850 vehicles. Uh and northbound is 700. So you have 150 more southbound vehicles than northbound.

423
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>> Okay. And and I know this is probably silly and you're going to look at me. Um but um 850 vehicles in 60 minutes equals what? One how many vehicles per minute?

424
01:57:51.119 --> 01:58:06.560
I'm getting my calculator out. Um, >> I mean 10 over, you know, 12 12ish 13. >> Okay. And that's the point I'm making. I mean, is is that is that a characteristic is would would that characterize a um bumper-to-bumper

425
01:58:06.560 --> 01:58:22.480
situation or one where the traffic is stopped? >> No, I mean that's not necessarily based on the volume as much as the capacity of the roadway, whether there's upstream and downstream intersections, other vehicles creating delay. Um, like I said, the times that I've been out there, it's not the volume that

426
01:58:22.480 --> 01:58:39.920
necessarily creates the um backups or congestion or slowness of the vehicles. It's turning movements from other intersections. Those are the parts that cause um cues and delay. So, um you know, the northbound uh experiences that as well if a car is making a left turn

427
01:58:39.920 --> 01:58:57.040
somewhere, but you know, without those movements, like I said, um South Middle Bush Road does provide gaps in traffic. There's times where, you know, the signal to the south will stop traffic and you'll get a steady stream of of I'm sorry, not a steady stream, a a nice period of of northbound flow without

428
01:58:57.040 --> 01:59:14.320
vehicles where that's why the inbound movement that left turn works at a decent level of service or great level of service actually and the northbound or the right turn onto northbound would work well as uh would work well as well. Um, but the left turn egress, yeah,

429
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that's the critical movement and that's the critical peak time. So, it's got to conflict with or compete with both the northbound and southbound stream of traffic. So, this E level of service, how long of a wait are we talking? >> That was a D. And, uh, based on our

430
01:59:28.560 --> 01:59:44.159
calculation was about 30 30 seconds and change uh 33 seconds of delay. >> And about how long is your typical traffic light? A red light. Uh, a lot of traffic lights work at a 90 second cycle

431
01:59:44.159 --> 02:00:01.199
uh or 120 second cycle. So, I mean on a on a I mean 30 seconds is not uncommon for a red light. No, >> that's considered acceptable under IT standards. >> Yeah. I mean, traffic signals are are operated based upon the demands that each approach. So, you know, a state

432
02:00:01.199 --> 02:00:18.480
highway will have uh considerably more green time and then your side street approaches could have up to 50 seconds of stop while the highway is running or or 70 seconds of stop. So, yeah, no, there are plenty of um traffic lights in the state that have um a red light of of

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30 seconds or more. >> I I've interrupted your testimony. Do you want to continue with your testimony? >> Uh, no. I mean I was basically um >> sorry one one question >> when this study was conducted u were there any accidents that happened on

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02:00:34.639 --> 02:00:50.400
that road during that period of time? >> Uh we are not aware of any accidents that took place during that time. Um that's why we uh averaged the the days Monday through Friday to get a kind of a common day. There were no days that um

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02:00:50.400 --> 02:01:06.400
from my review of the data that seemed to have any you know obscene spike either super low or super high. They were all within a certain level of comfort 100 vehicles but that's kind of normal for daily fluctuations in traffic. >> Sure. Because that road does get a

436
02:01:06.400 --> 02:01:22.239
fairly decent amount of accidents. we get those Nixo uh notifications that there's an accident and then there's a huge line backup that happens on that particular road. >> Um and I don't know if if this is something

437
02:01:22.239 --> 02:01:39.280
that maybe the board needs to consider that this was done possibly, you know, during late fall or fall time. Um is it a requirement? Can we ask or request something that happens in

438
02:01:39.280 --> 02:01:54.880
summertime? Um, does that change the volume? I I don't have an answer. I really don't know. Maybe it's you >> No, absolutely. I mean, often when we're in communities that aren't vacation communities, you know, not down the

439
02:01:54.880 --> 02:02:11.440
shore. Um, we often are required by our reviewers or just by general practice to do our traffic counts when schools are in session and there's low uh vacation times. Now, when we're down the shore and we're doing traffic studies, it's often recommended that we do summer

440
02:02:11.440 --> 02:02:27.840
counts because everyone's heading down there. Um I I would imagine you know in Somerset County uh particularly in this area during the summer volumes would likely be lower due to children non school and um people taking their vacation time.

441
02:02:27.840 --> 02:02:44.719
So your standard commuter hours would be a little lower. That's why I asked about him doing it in October because everybody's back at school. People aren't taking vacations yet. There's no holidays. Maybe I'm being a little naive about this or have the wrong perspective, but

442
02:02:44.719 --> 02:03:02.800
isn't it safe to say that your 30-cond or your 60-second delay that falls on the people coming out of this driveway and entering the highway to the general traveling public on South Middle Bush

443
02:03:02.800 --> 02:03:19.599
Road, there's no s there's no delay basically. And the people coming out of the driveway, for better or worse, do have a choice. You don't have to pull out until it's safe. I mean, you can't legislate all

444
02:03:19.599 --> 02:03:35.360
that stuff for everybody. U I've in a lot of a lot of times that we've asked for things like this, I can't foresee if this is approved. If you have to put a stoplight up there

445
02:03:35.360 --> 02:03:50.400
means either this facility has grown out of proportion or something's happened elsewhere along South Middleish Road where everything multiplies exponentially. But I don't see a traffic

446
02:03:50.400 --> 02:04:09.199
light in my lifetime being put up there. No, I I haven't done traffic counts, but I would imagine and that Cordeloo or or Jacques would generate more peak hour traffic than the 30 we have coming. I don't know that for certain, but those

447
02:04:09.199 --> 02:04:23.760
intersections don't warrant those signals either. So, um like like you said, I if there's a signal at this driveway, something's far unforeseen occurred. I mean, based on my experience, because I live on a street that's pretty much as busy as this one

448
02:04:23.760 --> 02:04:41.280
is, I can always make a left turn. I might not make it when I drive to the end of the driveway. You know, the idea that people think they can drive somewhere and not have to stop at a stoplight or stop for something is in

449
02:04:41.280 --> 02:04:58.239
New Jersey at least is absurd. >> Yeah. So, >> no, I'm not saying there's not periods of time where the left is very difficult. The, you know, the first couple um first time I visited the site, my first left turn was was was difficult. And then there were number of times I just drove and kept, you know,

450
02:04:58.239 --> 02:05:14.639
testing how the ability to make turns. And there were times where there was plenty of time upstream and downstream to make a left turn out of uh any of the side streets along um South Middle Bush. So, yeah, I I understand that sometimes you're going to wait a little if you do desire to make that left turn, but um

451
02:05:14.639 --> 02:05:30.719
right turns are faster and there eventually will be a gap in traffic where you can make that turn. I actually think that making the left turn in might spontaneously be a little more dangerous because you have high-speed traffic and they're not paying attention. All of a

452
02:05:30.719 --> 02:05:46.000
sudden, someone decides to make a left turn in and everyone's got to suddenly stop. But it is what it is. It's not approved yet. We have to go a ways of that. Uh anything else?

453
02:05:46.000 --> 02:06:02.000
>> I sorry and and I'm just processing all of this. So please pardon multiple questions. >> That's what I'm here for. >> Now I'm talking about the you know uh the people who will come from the prayer house from the mosque

454
02:06:02.000 --> 02:06:22.800
merging onto the road. Okay. the last car. Assuming that everyone is kind of coming out at the same time or a similar time, >> simple math tells me that the last car that will possibly make a left or a

455
02:06:22.800 --> 02:06:39.599
right turn will have waited 12 to 15 minutes to exit that place because and I'm going just by your 30 secondond rule, okay? which I right now I have to take it on face value but I'm saying at the peak hours time there are

456
02:06:39.599 --> 02:06:55.360
times that you are absolutely right if it was the the 1:00 uh prayer I don't expect fundamentally I at least I have not never experienced issues making a left or a right turn uh on that road but

457
02:06:55.360 --> 02:07:10.800
I'm talking only about the peak hour time frame it would take a substantial amount of time to clear the traffic from there. >> Yeah, like I said, you're going to have moments in that traffic where um you

458
02:07:10.800 --> 02:07:26.960
have a a right turning vehicle and like I said, northbound flow is is is less and it'll they'll they'll shoot right out. You know, they'll stop and go. Um there'll be times even where you could probably process two left turns in a gap. So, while it's a 35 second average

459
02:07:26.960 --> 02:07:42.639
per vehicle, like I said, you're going to have some vehicles that some vehicles will certainly have no weight. Those will be, you know, those will be less volume that will have no weight. But, um, no, it's not going to be just a a train of every vehicle 30

460
02:07:42.639 --> 02:07:59.199
just sitting there waiting to get out. I mean, if it were to be, that's all on their property and a queue for their worshippers and they're going to have to deal with that. But I don't envision that happening at all. >> Just one other point. Is is that 5:00

461
02:07:59.199 --> 02:08:16.719
service a required one for somebody? My my point being that if I'm going there and I'm concerned about my safety getting out of the facility, then maybe I go to the later one. >> Well, >> or to the dawn one. >> There are choices. You know, people can

462
02:08:16.719 --> 02:08:33.280
make choices. I think that a practicing Muslim and that's not the right way. Some someone who's, you know, a really observant Muslim is going to go to every prayer service. Um, so it's not like you

463
02:08:33.280 --> 02:08:49.440
might pick 9:00 mass versus 10 o'clock mass or 11 o'clock mass. I happen to know about that. My wife's Catholic, so I know that. So, but it's not like that. you're supposed to um attend each prayer meeting. Um so it's not exactly like

464
02:08:49.440 --> 02:09:07.520
that. But my question is M um Doug, how many cars are we talking about at that at that 5:00 service? I mean, we're talking about a typical weekday 5:00 service. How many people we talking about? How many cars? >> Well, like we said, it's a it's 60 uh worshippers uh arriving, you know, in

465
02:09:07.520 --> 02:09:23.440
any number of people within their vehicle. We looked at originally three per car, which would then um lend itself to 20 in and 20 out. For our analysis, we dropped it to two per car, which was 30 in and 30 out. So, you're looking at

466
02:09:23.440 --> 02:09:40.159
um conservatively 30 vehicles entering and then 30 vehicles exiting when the service is over. >> Okay. And that's that's if we're talking about the peak number of people that the client anticipates and only two people per car. >> Correct. >> Okay. Worst case scenario. Correct.

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02:09:40.159 --> 02:09:57.440
>> Okay. Um let's take um a even busier time. Let's let's let's talk about even say 70 people. >> Okay. >> And let's talk about two per cars. Did you study what would happen if there were more than 30 cars? If there were even let's say 35 or 40 cars in any

468
02:09:57.440 --> 02:10:13.199
given time, including that peak hour. >> Yes, that wasn't included on our report. Uh but we heard some comments from prior prior hearings. Um, so we looked at if there was one of those special events where there was the 150 mats that we we

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02:10:13.199 --> 02:10:29.840
discussed and if we um if we did an analysis of that with three people per vehicle, then you're looking at 50 vehicles entering and 50 vehicles exiting. And under that analysis, you continue to have the A level of service for a left turn in. However, the egress

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volume um would then uh level service would then go to a level service E. it would not reach its capacity, but even during those special events, you'd still have a level of service E coming out of that driveway. However, it's important to note that the client has committed itself that in the for special events

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02:10:46.960 --> 02:11:03.520
like that, uh they will hire an offduty police person, uh somebody to handle traffic. So, would that would that remediate the the um even a level E service? >> Yes, I believe it would. Uh, I think a safety officer, if he were directing

472
02:11:03.520 --> 02:11:19.040
traffic, would essentially operate similarly to a traffic signal. Um, you know, he'd be able to determine when there were sufficient gaps to stop South Middlebush traffic or to um allow um parishioners to enter exit, he could

473
02:11:19.040 --> 02:11:34.079
stop traffic. So, I think overall that would be a um you know, help reduce delay at that location. >> That's all the questions I have. >> Anything from the board? I have one if I can. Um, so your study was from Monday,

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02:11:34.079 --> 02:11:49.520
October 7th through Friday, October 11th, correct? >> Yes, that's right. >> Do you have any weekend data for a Saturday or Sunday? >> I don't. Uh, and primarily the reason being is that those commuter hours

475
02:11:49.520 --> 02:12:05.199
usually more times than not are the busiest peak hours. So, when you have that evening peak hour that's experiencing the almost 1,600 vehicles, um it's it's it's probably the critical hour and and um

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02:12:05.199 --> 02:12:24.079
>> Sure, I get that. But, council, this is a a five times a day, seven days a week proposal. Correct. >> Five prayers a day, seven days a week. >> Uh do you have >> Yes. So, I I just thought that maybe a

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02:12:24.079 --> 02:12:41.679
Saturday and Sunday um numbers would be >> expert. He'd have to explain why he didn't do it on weekends. I mean, I I I think he he's explained it, you know, because this is when the rush hour is. >> Yeah. Like like I said, I mean, commuter peak hours are are more often than not

478
02:12:41.679 --> 02:13:01.440
the highest you'll see more so than a Saturday or Sunday. I know shopping hours peak, but um there's nothing like a like an evening rush. Uh I think uh it it involves the summer but especially in the fall where the your

479
02:13:01.440 --> 02:13:16.960
next door neighbor on the farm runs different activities on weekends especially. >> Yeah. >> You didn't take that into consideration because that can be pretty crowded. >> Yeah. I'm

480
02:13:16.960 --> 02:13:34.800
not the answer is no because we didn't do any weekend counts. Um uh I would anticipate still um I I have not experienced the operations of the farm if they are of that volume. Um I think it would have to be a pretty

481
02:13:34.800 --> 02:13:52.239
substantial volume to reach um those those morning and evening rush hours during the week. Uh but I I like I said I I'm unaware of the volume that they generate and the the >> Well, it's also pretty pretty close driveways. Pretty uh pretty close to each other.

482
02:13:52.239 --> 02:14:09.199
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I haven't studied the the farms farm's operations. >> Mr. Penik, I haven't talked about and I should have um about the parking on-site parking. Do you have an opinion as to the uh traffic flow on the on-site

483
02:14:09.199 --> 02:14:25.360
parking and also the um the the new the new proposal for banking 60 um parking spaces? >> Yes, I was going to uh I was going to touch upon that briefly, Mr. Ard hit a lot of that. Um if I'm repetitive, uh

484
02:14:25.360 --> 02:14:42.239
forgive me. Um the 150 spaces that are proposed, 60 of them will be banked. So we're having 97 parking spaces. that's inclusive of 588 spaces. Certainly on your common standard 60 attendee day, the 97 spaces will be more than

485
02:14:42.239 --> 02:14:58.639
adequate. And then on those special occasions when you're looking at um 150 uh visitors with um you know, three people per vehicle, you're looking at 50 parking spaces or two people per vehicle. Uh you have 75 parking spaces. So I'm pretty certain and I agree with

486
02:14:58.639 --> 02:15:13.920
Mr. um Ardman that the 97 spaces that'll be constructed can handle that demand. >> Okay. Anything else? >> Any other questions? >> Yeah, I have a I have a question. Um actually two. Um so at the beginning of

487
02:15:13.920 --> 02:15:29.280
your testimony, you um stated a threshold with the DOT for a significant impact. Yeah. >> Was that that was 100 vehicles per hour or per day? >> That's an hour. >> But you said you that's okay. So it's an hour, not for the day. Um, and I guess

488
02:15:29.280 --> 02:15:46.960
my my other question is in in terms of special events, uh, with the high holy holidays, weddings, funeral, in in the memo that was provided, how often do those special occasions need to occur before you consider that as part of your your baseline traffic

489
02:15:46.960 --> 02:16:02.400
impact study? Because all your testimony, the far majority of your report was surrounded by the 50 to 60 number that we've been discussing, >> right? And like I said, I did do an analysis with the 150 if three per vehicle um that wasn't in our our base

490
02:16:02.400 --> 02:16:19.199
traffic report just to see if the 50 um in and out um would would exceed the capacity. And like I said, it went to level service E. I mean, I think honestly if if you're talking about how frequent it would have to be to be part of our study, almost daily, you know, daily condition

491
02:16:19.199 --> 02:16:34.960
certainly weekly. um you know cuz you'd have that traffic safety officer out there um that frequently. >> Well, if it was that frequently, you wouldn't have a a traffic safety off officer and you probably need some warrant for a traffic signal at that point.

492
02:16:34.960 --> 02:16:52.160
>> Yeah. So, you know, you would need 150 before we I don't want to start estimating warrants for for traffic signals now, >> but you'd probably need that to occur a few hours a day >> possibly to hit a couple warrants, you

493
02:16:52.160 --> 02:17:07.840
know, so because you you may hit a peak hour warrant, but usually want to reach more than one warrant. So, um you'd have to have 150 entering and 150 exiting. That's not even that's 150 people. So you're looking at 50 vehicles entering exiting. You might I don't think you're hitting the warrants even a special

494
02:17:07.840 --> 02:17:22.479
event. >> Yeah. No, I'm I'm not advocating for against the traffic signal. I'm just saying that the basis of the report was on the 50 to 60, right? >> And then the special events, but I I haven't I don't recall hearing anything about the number of special events throughout the year. We have a couple of

495
02:17:22.479 --> 02:17:37.760
high holy holidays, couple of weddings, couple of funerals. >> I mean, is this going to be something that's weekly, every other week? >> No. No. How often would you anticipate? >> My understanding of a special event might be maybe three or four times a

496
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year and then you have a few days during Ramadan when it would be that busy during that one hour. And of course, in order to be able to have that many people, we'd have to get a special event permit. >> Well, my my concern would be, and it is a concern, right? I mean, you're you're you're answering it is if we had that

497
02:17:54.800 --> 02:18:11.120
many special events and there was a need to have a police officer out there that often, that's concerning. >> Well, my understanding of a special event permit is that somebody's going to review it and decide whether it's

498
02:18:11.120 --> 02:18:26.479
>> okay. So, you know, three to five times, okay, but if it's all of a sudden three or five times a week, no, you're not going to get the permit. Now, now you change your what you're doing out there because you told us we you going to have 50 or 60 people there at a time. >> So

499
02:18:26.479 --> 02:18:42.240
>> to me, special event, it's regulated. It's going to be regulated by your administr administrative people. It's only going to be, you know, a few times a year. >> Okay. I just just curious more than anything. >> No, I that's not my my understanding of what

500
02:18:42.240 --> 02:18:57.760
of what a special event is going to be that's going to happen all the time. >> I mean, we can define the whole high holy holidays. That's relatively easy. I was just more questioning the the weddings, the funerals, and maybe something else. >> No funerals. >> Yeah, it's in the report. >> But that's going to that's what they're

501
02:18:57.760 --> 02:19:15.679
what they're working with is a uh a u you're working with a uh a a resolution that in which they said no weddings or funerals. >> Um we said that there might be three to five a year.

502
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>> No. Just for my own edification, um, for those prayer sessions, is it just one hour for a wedding or is it still five? >> I'm just curious. >> It was my understanding it was one.

503
02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:47.679
>> Just you clarify whether there's weddings or funerals. Does it keep referencing the statement of the property use and it says there are weddings and funerals at the facility? >> And um, >> I just have an additional question that we can answer.

504
02:19:47.679 --> 02:20:05.600
>> U Ramadan is a month. Okay? It's not four or five days. It's a holy month. So if it's going to be peak, it's not four or five days. It's going to be for a month. >> Okay.

505
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>> Um second question and possibly that is for Mark sir. Sorry to have put you on spot again. Um >> do we have we approved anything else around in the region or surrounding that also adds to the traffic here? Cuz if

506
02:20:22.399 --> 02:20:38.160
you're looking at this in isolation and let's say somewhere 300 ft half a you know mile away there is another institute that is being built that is adding something similar that's already been approved then what's the

507
02:20:38.160 --> 02:20:54.080
impact? Well, I I can't answer that second part of the question about the impact to traffic, but that as far as other nearby uh developments there there is another um house of worship that was approved um

508
02:20:54.080 --> 02:21:10.880
basically across the street. >> How much traffic are they anticipating? >> Oh, I I don't know. It was it was before this board about 5 years ago. >> Correct. So what I'm saying is let's say they have and I'm making this up because none of us have that numbers but if

509
02:21:10.880 --> 02:21:25.840
there is >> I I could I could probably assist you with that a bit. Um that was I believe the SAI data uh application. >> Um they have like a my understanding is they have a like a floating worship situation where they don't have

510
02:21:25.840 --> 02:21:40.160
necessarily set times over the course of the day. you visit um freely, but they do have larger crowds in the evening after rush hour, I believe 7 and 9:00 or 7 or 8:00 after the evening rush hour.

511
02:21:40.160 --> 02:21:57.520
So, um you know, we didn't necessarily take their volumes into account because it's not conflicting during that critical 5:00 peak hour when everything's crunched. I think if you were to add all of their traffic at 7:00 or 9:00 to South Middlebush Road, it still wouldn't reach the volume that's

512
02:21:57.520 --> 02:22:15.520
at 5:00. So 5:00 would still remain that critical hour even without their traffic. So it's been taken into account, but it hasn't been taken into account because it doesn't impact um the you know that critical time when we're when the site would experience its you know busiest

513
02:22:15.520 --> 02:22:31.040
time frame and that roadway experience its busiest time frame. Any other questions? >> I guess I'm still waiting for an answer on the weddings and funeral. >> Yeah. And al also waiting on the answer for Ramadan. It's a month. It's not four or five days. >> Three or four weddings or funerals

514
02:22:31.040 --> 02:22:46.479
together per year. And that's that's in my statement here. Okay. But it's not a full wedding and funeral like it's not a um ceremony and a reception or something. It's relatively short. And regarding Ramadan,

515
02:22:46.479 --> 02:23:03.760
yes, there would be each day of Ramadan. And again, it would be a special use permit if it's going to exceed 150 people. I believe Mr. Piniac has testified that he has already >> not exceed 150 people. >> Yes. >> Reach 150 people. >> 150 people,

516
02:23:03.760 --> 02:23:19.359
>> not exceed >> if it's it's fewer than 150 people. >> Correct. Yes. I'm sorry. >> If it exceeds that much, we'll be getting a special use. We'll have to get a special use permit. >> What would be the threshold for a special use permit in this scenario?

517
02:23:19.359 --> 02:23:34.720
>> 150 people during Ramadan. >> No. No. So you're you're my understanding of the testimony is that you're anticipating 50 to 60 per prayer service five times a day. That's that's the baseline, right? Somewhere in there. So at what point between that 60th car

518
02:23:34.720 --> 02:23:51.600
anticipated and the 150th car anticipated would be a special use permit? >> Can you say that again? I'm sorry. >> Yeah. So, the testimony is the average prayer service, we'll just say 60 cars. That's on the higher end of the spectrum. >> Oh, no. That's really on a high

519
02:23:51.600 --> 02:24:07.600
>> No, yeah, yeah. I'm not I'm not critiquing. I'm I'm just trying to draw a baseline here. And then it says on the special events up to 150 people. So, where would that special permit special events permit fall within that

520
02:24:07.600 --> 02:24:24.880
60 to 150 anticipated vehicles? I think you're asking when it would kick in 80 cars 90 cars, right? >> Yeah. I It was very clear to me, but apparently not to everyone out there. >> We're talking about we're talking about cars and people. >> People, I'm sorry. >> Okay. Well, then that's a >> obviously a big distinction. Okay.

521
02:24:24.880 --> 02:24:40.080
>> What we said was Tawied will apply for a special event permit for high holy day events or weddings and funerals that will draw a larger than normal crowd prince no more than 150 people at a time for occasional special events. >> Yeah. Is that 65 70 75 80?

522
02:24:40.080 --> 02:24:55.600
>> Yes. I mean I I how many I think the board's going to condition it but what we have said is that typically we're going to have the highest amount we're going to have in a prayer session is 70 to 80 people during Ramadan. >> Okay. So that that is your that is the

523
02:24:55.600 --> 02:25:11.920
benchmark and we're going over that let's say over 100 people. That's when we're talking about special event. >> I mean I'm just >> am I not making myself clear? Well, I think it's something that we really haven't discussed in any great detail. Like, we understand special events permit. We're understanding the 60,

524
02:25:11.920 --> 02:25:27.920
you're saying 70, but where does that kick in? And I think that's just something we need to consider. Like, and Darren's not it's all you. >> During Ramadan, prayer sessions may be slightly larger, approximately 70 to 80 people each service.

525
02:25:27.920 --> 02:25:44.560
>> Okay. So, that that's that's one benchmark. Okay. like 9:00 p.m. onwards only on Ramadan. Not on daytime. >> You don't have daytime. >> Daytime normal people. They all go to work. Okay. Only at night time after 9:00. >> Even during Ramadan, >> I think. I mean, I don't think we're finishing tonight. I mean, maybe you

526
02:25:44.560 --> 02:26:00.000
guys come back with us with what you think. >> It fits your schedule. >> I'm, you know, Mr. Panic. Um, first of all, I'll pay $20 for that bottle of water right now. Okay. Even without it. Okay. Um

527
02:26:00.000 --> 02:26:16.160
um but the I'm I'm getting myself confused because the numbers here are correct and and you're right. I I need to get clarification because I'm not explaining myself right. Maybe it's you know thirst and and the end of the evening.

528
02:26:16.160 --> 02:26:32.319
>> But the the numbers are correct here. Oh, he wants to take my $20. >> Do you want another one? >> Thank Thank you, sir. And sir, when you're getting that clarification, I have a request because

529
02:26:32.319 --> 02:26:46.960
up two paragraphs or one paragraph it says 150 people for occasional special events. So which one is it? Is it 150 or is it 70 to 80? >> Okay.

530
02:26:46.960 --> 02:27:03.520
The 150 I think was just explaining that we we don't anticipate we're going to be um exceeding 150 people. That was the reason for the 150. The 70 to 80 is the people that we expect during Ramadan at the evening sessions. It's been

531
02:27:03.520 --> 02:27:21.200
clarified to me that during the day people are still going to work and stuff. It's going to be the same. It's only the evening prayer sessions that could be up to 70 to 80 people which is consistent with Doug's testimony. when we said that we could go to no more than 150 people is for a special holiday high

532
02:27:21.200 --> 02:27:38.479
holiday event, wedding or funeral which is which is not every day at Ramadan. It's just special events during Ramadan. I don't know if I'm clarifying myself but >> because in past you have referred to it says permit for holy day events and in

533
02:27:38.479 --> 02:27:56.560
past and I'm again I'm not holding you to and look everyone's learning here so I I understand um Ramadan is the holy month the holy month so it's not like this day or that day or

534
02:27:56.560 --> 02:28:12.720
something except when and again with my limited knowledge there is Eid that everyone celebrates. Okay. Um but that 150 people when you are saying it's permit for high holy day events

535
02:28:12.720 --> 02:28:29.120
that is a month. >> No. Okay. First of all the big Eid is not going to take place at this um property. The the client rents out actually a hotel where they have the big Eid. Okay. That's number one. Uh number two, only during Ramadan, the only time

536
02:28:29.120 --> 02:28:46.080
that they have more than the usual 50 to 60 people is the evening service. Otherwise, people are going to work during the day. During that Ramadan prayer session in the evening, approximately 70 to 80 people could be expected at the service.

537
02:28:46.080 --> 02:29:01.200
The 150 people comes in by our saying, we are not going to exceed 150 people at any time. Special events may have up to 150 people. If we're doing a special event, we're going to apply for a permit and we're going to have a police officer

538
02:29:01.200 --> 02:29:16.800
outside directing traffic. All right. But we're not going to see 150. And that's why Mr. Mystery showed 150 people showing that's the most people we're going to have at this site at a time. Is Mr. Chairman, does that

539
02:29:16.800 --> 02:29:34.000
is that clear, sir? Is that clear? It's clear to me. I I get I think from my perspective is we're we're categorizing the special events based on a certain day. I was kind of looking at it more in terms of number of people. So

540
02:29:34.000 --> 02:29:50.560
if something came up and the the facility anticipated 75 people, would that trigger the special events permit? >> And that was just >> that's a really fair question. And if I'm Mr. Hack, I'm wondering like what am I going to put in this resolution? >> Okay. numbers are quantifiable

541
02:29:50.560 --> 02:30:07.359
>> and one of my jobs as Mr. Hack knows I sit on that side also. Um and I'm going to say give us a little bit of leeway. We're saying 70 to 80 people. Let's say you know let's let's say 100 people above 100 people we need a special event permit and we're not going to exceed 150

542
02:30:07.359 --> 02:30:34.000
people at any given time. >> Think it's worth considering? I don't >> my client's nodding his head to consent that that will Sir, do you want this back or >> any other questions? >> Yes. Mr. Chairman, if I could just ask a few.

543
02:30:34.000 --> 02:30:51.120
>> So, on paper, you chipped your evaluated as two to three people in the in a car per truck. Correct. >> Yes. So then can you give me testimony of why at the bank parking area you would need 97 spaces for if there's expected to be two to three people per

544
02:30:51.120 --> 02:31:07.840
trip because that puts this floor at 50 to probably 75. Are we closer to 100 now? Uh if I understand the question, I think you're asking why 97 spaces with >> Well, you use trip generation to determine use two to three people in a

545
02:31:07.840 --> 02:31:23.760
vehicle for trip generation, but then for parking. Yeah. You're using a a different number now. So, >> no, not necessarily. Um >> well, you have 97. You said that there need to be 970 users. And there's also testimony that these users could call one in a car, which you haven't really touched on yet either. That's why I

546
02:31:23.760 --> 02:31:40.000
wanted to get that on the record because that could start triggering this as a major traffic issue too on only on special days. So, >> uh, no, I mean what I would say is, um, you know, on average using a lower, um, parking requirement of of two people per

547
02:31:40.000 --> 02:31:55.840
vehicle is is 75 for 150 for those capped days. Um, they're showing or we're having 97 spaces. So it's what 23 space 24 where am I at? >> Nice.

548
02:31:55.840 --> 02:32:11.680
>> 20 20 plus spaces extra than that 75. I I don't think necessarily you want to design specifically exactly for that volume, you know. >> No, but your whole testimony has been that it's mostly going to be 60 to 70 vehicles. So on that at that token, you're more at like 30 cars. So now

549
02:32:11.680 --> 02:32:26.240
you're triple the normal parking you would need. That's where I'm having a disconnect right now. Yeah, I'm I'm a little lost. Um, on a normal day, >> I was conservatively projecting 30 vehicles entering. Okay. >> So, somewhere in the ballpark of 30

550
02:32:26.240 --> 02:32:41.120
parking spaces needed five times a day on a weekday. >> On those special occasions, if you had three people per vehicle, um, that would be 50 vehicles entering. Or if you had two people, it would be 75 vehicles. I

551
02:32:41.120 --> 02:32:57.600
think as as um Mitch had said, you know, we wanted to look at two to make sure that we have we don't want to be running back here and getting more parking because yeah, it may not be three people per vehicle on, you know, it could be two people, but then there's an excess because you don't want to design exactly for the 75 parking spaces.

552
02:32:57.600 --> 02:33:12.960
>> What I'm saying, so then that basically works out to, let's just say roughly 1.5 spaces, you know, per um perishioner. So then why wouldn't you use that back in your trip generation then if that's the worst case scenario? Why are you using two or three?

553
02:33:12.960 --> 02:33:29.439
>> You're you're kind of splitting. You're you're looking at this in a benefit for the applicant but not >> Yeah. I don't know if I if I understand that or agree with that. Um my traffic report was based on the 60 visitors. >> Correct. >> At two per vehicle,

554
02:33:29.439 --> 02:33:43.439
>> correct? >> So that is 30 in and 30 out. That's I I think that's pretty conservative as far as with respect to um the vehicles coming in during those five periods during the day. I think it's probably going to be less. Um, now let's move

555
02:33:43.439 --> 02:34:01.040
that on to parking. So, so I'm clear, we're designing or we're ensuring that there's sufficient parking for those high holy days with the 150. So, we certainly have to provide bare minimum 150 parking spaces, but that's if everyone took their own car, which is

556
02:34:01.040 --> 02:34:17.439
not going to happen. So then we looked at other parking ratios uh of either three per vehicle which could be um 50 parking spaces >> or conservatively two per vehicle which would be 75 parking spaces. >> So that's where >> you're getting more conservative like

557
02:34:17.439 --> 02:34:34.399
1.5 cars per pair of people. >> That's where I'm getting. >> Yes. Now if you were to apply where I'm getting at is you apply that same ratio in your chip generation >> then your chip generation now this becomes a major project. >> Oh I'm not necessarily proposing

558
02:34:34.399 --> 02:34:50.640
additional I'm not saying that the 97 parking spaces are all going to be full. >> Why don't we talk about land banking some of those? Well, like I was going to say, you don't want to propose exactly as many parking spaces as you need because then someone has to hunt and peck and look for a parking space if

559
02:34:50.640 --> 02:35:05.920
there's one free. You always like to have a little bit of a surplus just for convenience. >> Yeah, your surplus is 25%. >> But but on a day on some four or five times a year, >> we had this conversation, this dialogue at the beginning tonight. >> No, you didn't. You didn't have him with

560
02:35:05.920 --> 02:35:20.800
his trip generation. So, I disagree. >> No, I I understand. But the the problem is that we're asking for a parton variance and we're we're trying to maximize the number of spaces but consistent also what we're doing on a property. So if you're suggesting we

561
02:35:20.800 --> 02:35:37.439
should land bank another 15 or or 30 I I suppose >> 60 trips per >> I know I think I I think I can maybe help you and I'm sorry my math wasn't great. So you're saying on a common day

562
02:35:37.439 --> 02:35:52.880
if we go back to the parking ratio of 1.5 and apply it to the people that we intend that's 40 vehicles as opposed to the 30 used in my traffic report. >> Well there's that and then there's also the now the 70 80 days which you said is going to be a higher level which is not

563
02:35:52.880 --> 02:36:08.399
going to be a holiday. That's where I was getting at with it because that testimony changed from the 40 to 60 or I'm sorry 50 to 60 because now there So Rich's question was what triggers a uh a special permit and

564
02:36:08.399 --> 02:36:23.280
that's kind of where I'm getting at now because now the testimony is ramen 7080 as part of the testimony. So I think we have to look at the 70 to 80 in that respect and that's where at 1.5 that trip generation is going to get closer to 100

565
02:36:23.280 --> 02:36:41.560
>> 100 total but 50 50 in 50 out and that I did say that I ran that analysis now within my study for about 50 vehicles and that's when we're getting that level of service E. So >> and then you have 97 but then that so 50 and 50 out we have 97 space that's where I'm disconnected.

566
02:36:42.720 --> 02:37:00.560
Yeah, but and I hope I can eloquently say this. I think we're I think we're comparing two different time periods because if we use the ratio of parking for the 150, I think that's where you got the 1.5 from. >> Yes. >> If we apply that to your standard day at

567
02:37:00.560 --> 02:37:15.359
60, that goes to 40 vehicles in and 40 vehicles out, which is slightly higher than what was in my initial report. >> Yes. But also what I was saying too is as part of the uh statement of property use it was testified that 70 to 80 people will be there on the Ramadan

568
02:37:15.359 --> 02:37:33.359
services which is not part of uh of the special permit. Okay. So that's where I'm considering that. >> Right. Okay. So the 70 to 80 for Ramadan that analysis also falls within that analysis that I did outside of our traffic report for the 50 people and 50 out using seven or 80 people at a 1.5.

569
02:37:33.359 --> 02:37:49.120
So, we did look at that and if it was that ratio that didn't reach two, then we'd be more at a level of service E. >> Well, I guess 50 and 50 out. So, I understand you you want overflow. You're not going to want to have exactly 50 spots. Correct. >> Hypothetically. >> Correct.

570
02:37:49.120 --> 02:38:03.680
>> But now we're at almost double that number. That's where and that's where >> Well, not necessarily during those special occasions. If people show up at two per vehicle, then you're more in the 75 range. >> Sure. But I just want to make sure that's clear because we there's this

571
02:38:03.680 --> 02:38:19.200
started with 150 spaces. Now there's 60 back to we're at 90. But we're going to have 90 spaces for a site that's only going to really need 30 to 40 on most given days >> during your standard day. Correct. >> And that's where I think that maybe more may be more appropriate on those holiday

572
02:38:19.200 --> 02:38:38.080
those holidays to consider that as a land bank. We're kind of we're going to two different extremes. on parking we're going on the high extreme but in trip generation we're on the lower extreme so I think I'm just looking for that to blend a little better that it's my com I mean I know there's a

573
02:38:38.080 --> 02:38:55.120
lot on the spot I think you'll be coming back if you want to touch up >> yeah I would have to talk to the team I don't know if I have an answer for that but I I I like I said I I still continue to think that the 97 spaces are appropriate I mean there may be a handful that don't get used from time to time but why are why

574
02:38:55.120 --> 02:39:11.680
>> true but take the chance of her five spaces or 10 spaces >> says four to five people to come through the vehicle. So on that token now we're at 30. I mean that's why I think >> Yeah. No, it's a big guess and we're putting out a lot of parking that we don't know if we fully need yet because we're getting >> what what I'm concerned about from a

575
02:39:11.680 --> 02:39:28.399
legal standpoint is >> you're you're suggesting we should have fewer parking spaces and so we're aggravating the variance. No, I'm I'm testifying that you show that the sufficient amount of parking for your testimony >> testimony is >> which which would reduce number of spaces. >> It would

576
02:39:28.399 --> 02:39:44.720
>> because you know worst case scenario we have 149 people there. >> You know you're saying well maybe we only need 75 spaces. Okay, one day everybody decides to drive themselves. I I don't know. Um and we have a problem. But if I agree yes let's land bankank

577
02:39:44.720 --> 02:40:00.240
more spaces. Now all of a sudden I have a greater variance to prove and so I'm boxing myself in the corner. >> Understand what you're coming from there. But you typically don't design for the oneoff occasion. It's that that's just in my design practice and that's what's being designed.

578
02:40:00.240 --> 02:40:16.720
>> But for the one-off occasion, I want to be sure I have enough parking spaces. I I mean I don't think the applicant has a really strong feeling about how many spaces should be out there. We're just trying to reach a happy medium and that's why we came up with 30 more bank spaces. >> No, understood. I just looking at this from my perspective. If you have 100

579
02:40:16.720 --> 02:40:32.080
spaces there and two people come there on on a given day, that 75 spaces that you're using, it's that you're pushing up on a higher level what you were testifying is normal. That's why and that's where Rich was asking what is that limit and we're going higher without even getting there once the

580
02:40:32.080 --> 02:40:47.280
question start. >> So So you could >> So we're talking 75 spaces plus seven uh handicap spaces and now we're at 82 spaces. So, we're not talking about limiting a lot of spaces, >> but we're also

581
02:40:47.280 --> 02:41:02.560
>> But we are not going to die on this island either. >> What I'm getting at is though 75 spaces are only needed five times. Let's see if we actually need them when we go that far. But that's just my opinion. >> Okay.

582
02:41:02.560 --> 02:41:23.880
Okay. Anything else? >> No. >> Right. We're going to take a a fivem minute break to take care of a couple things and then come back and finish up and journ for five minutes seats and get things underway.

583
02:41:26.160 --> 02:41:40.800
>> Mitch, I don't know if it's necessary, but do you want to pop in your I lost your password? We are at the point where the uh traffic testimony is basically completed. We also understand

584
02:41:40.800 --> 02:41:56.960
that's a concern for a lot of people. We are also beyond what our curfew usually is. So, we're going to open to the public to ask traffic questions of the traffic

585
02:41:56.960 --> 02:42:10.880
engineer so that everybody gets a chance to hear what some of the concerns are and then bring everybody back the next meeting uh to continue to cross exam. Is this yours?

586
02:42:10.880 --> 02:42:26.479
>> That is me. Yep. So, right now, unless everybody who's out there wants to stay out there, >> stay out there. >> We will open to the public to ask questions concerning the traffic testimony.

587
02:42:26.479 --> 02:42:52.720
>> Close the door. >> We are going to uh allow 15 minutes tops for questions on traffic. Everybody could get back in and seated. We'll get going. >> And you're all set to go. Go ahead.

588
02:42:52.720 --> 02:43:09.439
>> Yeah. Yeah. I have to go home. I have to just ask my questions and then I'll just go back home. So again, my name is Jodi and the traffic on South Milbush Road directly impacts us in our community. So we had uh raised a lot of objections to

589
02:43:09.439 --> 02:43:25.760
the temple project as well. So this is in no way religious and unfortunately the temple project was approved. Uh so here I am again raising uh my objections about the traffic on South Milbush Road

590
02:43:25.760 --> 02:43:42.319
only because it impacts us directly and every day. I think that South Melbourish Road right now cannot even take a house. Mr. Chairman, this is not a question. We need a question. >> We need questions. This is not >> Yeah. So, >> my question to the traffic engineer is

591
02:43:42.319 --> 02:43:58.880
that this study was done in 2024, which I think is a little outdated. Um, and the other question is you said that you only did from October 8th through 11th, which is just 5 days. and having

592
02:43:58.880 --> 02:44:14.880
commuted on on that road for years, I agree with the committee member that said that you uh haven't uh that 32nd is is not appropriate. It's not um it's actually pretty laughable. I

593
02:44:14.880 --> 02:44:30.080
mean, I waited 10 minutes from Skilman's Lane just to turn on to South Mish Road. Have you used any computer models or you just is this all by observation? the traffic. >> No, the the analysis, the level surface

594
02:44:30.080 --> 02:44:45.840
analysis is performed by a software where you where you input the volumes. >> And so what simulations have you done? Have you done rain, snow, accidents, any simulations? >> No. Um, like I said, we just we're

595
02:44:45.840 --> 02:45:00.800
analyzing a a standard day uh for for those five hours. >> This is not a standard day. So, we need best case scenarios. Worst case scenarios. >> Let him finish. As traffic engineers, we typically don't analyze days where there would be

596
02:45:00.800 --> 02:45:17.520
anything outside of the normal um certainly not an accident. Those are things that are, you know, outside of normal conditions. Um unpredictable and obviously are going to cause traffic issues on any type of roadway.

597
02:45:17.520 --> 02:45:34.000
>> Okay. And the uh access is only through Southman Bush Road, right? So people will make a left into the complex when they enter and they make a right out of the complex when they exit. >> They they can make left turns and right turns in and left turns and right turns

598
02:45:34.000 --> 02:45:49.520
out. >> Oh, so both ways. >> Yes. >> Okay. And 5:00 p.m. also have you uh that also they can make a left. >> Yes. >> And a right. >> Yes. >> Okay. So there's no restriction on uh like them making only right when they

599
02:45:49.520 --> 02:46:06.720
exit the complex, right? >> No, not unless through the county's review they put a restriction on it, but there has been no indication of that yet. >> Okay, so I guess we only have 15 minutes and I know other people have questions. Uh I so thank you for your time and

600
02:46:06.720 --> 02:46:24.160
thank you. >> Thank you. Shabi again 15 has proof drive. Um your first assumption was made uh three people to a car and then you changed that to two people to a car. I have a

601
02:46:24.160 --> 02:46:40.640
question to my entire audience here. How many of you drove here three people to a car today including you sir >> the board members? Anybody? >> I'm going to object to that. Did it's time for questions to the witness? Did you drive three to a car?

602
02:46:40.640 --> 02:46:58.080
>> No, but when I go to my place of worship, I have four to a car. >> Oh, normally I don't. That's why I asked. When you uh my question, my next question, sir, you're an engineer. When we are stress testing or load testing any model, we do worst case scenario,

603
02:46:58.080 --> 02:47:16.160
which is maximum number. In this case, the maximum number of people coming into the facility as declared on a normal day is 60. On high traffic days, 70 to 80 to a max of 150. So when we are

604
02:47:16.160 --> 02:47:31.760
testing the model of traffic, it should be one person to a car because that's the worst case scenario. Can you please redo a model like that? Because if it ends up being one person to a car, we don't want to learn about it after it

605
02:47:31.760 --> 02:47:48.000
has happened. We want to know of it before how it impacts traffic. What is the traffic the max traffic um maximum quantifiable traffic capacity of South Middle Bush

606
02:47:48.000 --> 02:48:03.840
right now at those five times when the mosque is expecting uh people? That's a very justifiable question, right? We need to know that. No, I I don't necessarily agree if the characteristics of the use don't call

607
02:48:03.840 --> 02:48:20.080
for one person per vehicle if it's you know typically for houses of worship. Um >> we cannot guarant >> what's that? >> We we cannot guarantee that though can we we have to have the worst case scenario. That's how models are tested. >> There's no question. There's no

608
02:48:20.080 --> 02:48:36.560
question. So my question is what is the maximum traffic capacity at those five times when uh guests are expected at the mosque and based on you know the typical model

609
02:48:36.560 --> 02:48:54.640
passenger car per hour per lane which is a single lane here. >> Have you studied that? I >> I'm I'm not sure I understand what maximum capacity means. Do you understand? Maximum capacity means I will uh describe it. I'm sure your traffic engineer can describe it too.

610
02:48:54.640 --> 02:49:11.520
Would you like to? >> No. U what I could what I could say is I testified previously that we had done an analysis of an anticipated day of when there was going to be 150 visitors on site assuming three people per vehicle which

611
02:49:11.520 --> 02:49:30.080
is 50 vehicles in and 50 vehicles out. And we still um had a level service E for the exiting movement and an A for entering. But also it's important to note that at those special events, there will be a traffic officer that is hired to control traffic which essentially

612
02:49:30.080 --> 02:49:46.319
is not modeled in an analysis because the traffic officer will um you know do his best to mitigate traffic conditions and reduce delay as much as possible. So to answer your question, um maximum traffic capacity means >> I didn't ask a question.

613
02:49:46.319 --> 02:50:03.279
>> No, he he did. Um the gentleman next to you did. He said, "What is maximum traffic capacity?" And I asked you if you could answer, you said no. So I'm answering for you. It is the maximum hourly rate at which vehicles can reasonably be expected to traverse a point under the

614
02:50:03.279 --> 02:50:19.200
prevailing and it is measured by passenger cars per hour per lane. And according to um you here it is at 5:00 p.m. 1,550 cars, right?

615
02:50:19.200 --> 02:50:36.479
>> Um yeah, it's two lanes in both directions. That's the max. Uh typically the maximum capacity on highways is 18 to 2200 cars. So on a single lane if it is going to be about 750 you know how

616
02:50:36.479 --> 02:50:52.319
can we say that this is something that taxpaying residents can just put up with I mean as it is we all know that south middle bush is maxed out that's why they are making a turning lane on Curtilus and one more is that right am I

617
02:50:52.319 --> 02:51:07.439
right there are plans for a turning lane >> because there's problems right now turning into >> this this is becoming a lot of testimony So unless >> No, my question. >> Is it true that there's a turning lane plan? >> No. Nice. But you're not you're not

618
02:51:07.439 --> 02:51:24.319
asking the witness a question now. You're asking the board and that's not supposed to ask the witness, not the board. >> I I cannot ask questions to you. >> No. >> Okay. Okay. So given that there are plans for a turning lane

619
02:51:24.319 --> 02:51:40.880
from Curtilius because right obviously the plans given by the board must be because there is problems turning. Do you know about this and how do you interpret this with extra uh traffic on this road? >> Have you put this into your study?

620
02:51:40.880 --> 02:51:57.120
>> Which question? I don't understand which question she wants him to answer. I want the question to be answered that the plans there are plans for a turning lane from Curtius which proves that right now there's problems with the you know cars turning into South Middlebush.

621
02:51:57.120 --> 02:52:13.439
>> Could you just reference what plan we're discussing? >> Uh it is on your if you go uh there is uh turning lanes >> please just just ask him a direct question. What my question is if there's already plans

622
02:52:13.439 --> 02:52:28.399
for a turning lane, how have you put this into your calculations because that means there is problems with cars turning into South Middle Bush. Have you considered this in your plan? >> If I were studying the intersections of

623
02:52:28.399 --> 02:52:44.880
Cordeloo, I would use the lane configuration that currently exists. And if I knew of a plan where lanes were to be added, I would likely do an analysis with those lanes included as well for a future condition. But I don't know the

624
02:52:44.880 --> 02:53:00.080
relevance to that analysis when compared to the analysis of the site driveway >> because you can ask questions, but what you're trying to do is get them to say what you want. >> Do you Okay. Do you have uh analysis of

625
02:53:00.080 --> 02:53:17.279
uh the traffic for the 500 a.m. Um service that is going to happen at the mosque which will end around 6:00 and there will be school buses. >> Yes. >> Do you have a analysis of that? >> Yes. Well, the problem is that she puts

626
02:53:17.279 --> 02:53:33.200
a lot of testimony into the question that invalidates the question. The the prayer meetings are half an hour. So her assumption that's an hour is wrong. >> No, you said it's uh half an hour to congregate, half an hour for the meeting, half an hour to leave.

627
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>> The the two-way volume on South Middleush during that 5 to six hour is 300 trips when during the evening at 5:00 at night, it's 1500 trips. So it's 1/5if of the traffic on South Middle

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Bush as as opposed to that evening that I called the critical hour. >> Okay. So, so the driveway will operate much better during that 5:00 hour than it does during the evening hour. >> And uh again the last question is

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have you done an analysis I think I asked this before at these five timings you referred to the peak timing. Do we have analysis at the five timings that the >> there is okay so we can you can present that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, >> not today, but you know,

630
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>> no, I can present it today. All the results will be better than what I testified to because the volume along South Middle Bush is substantially lower during other sessions and >> then, excuse me, than during the 5:00 hour when there was a level of service D. During the other peak hours, those

631
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levels of service are better than D. In fact, they are C's and B's. But I wanted to present to the board what I consider the critical hour because this is the busiest time frame when there will be services in session. >> So can we have a more recent study done

632
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>> before everything is approved because this is from uh one and a half years ago right the traffic plan on how there you did a growth model as part of your analysis so that maybe that gets a little more understanding to it. >> Yeah. Uh yes our accounts were done

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towards the end of 2024. um you know our our report was done um you know middle of 2025 uh so at the time of the preparation our report that that data was much less than a year old uh but to account for any growth in the area uh we applied that 1%

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growth factor that I stated earlier to inflate the volumes for a two-year buildout thank you >> again my name is Dewa Gilluri from 72 to Vermont Avenue. Thank you for all sharing all the data, sir. Uh you mentioned the stud you did the study in

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October 2024. >> Yes. >> For how long was it, sir? >> Uh it was it was a week of data collection. >> One week. And uh what about the reference to the August of 2025? There's no study in August 20. >> Our our report was authored.

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>> So So during the this is during the school years. >> The counselor. Yes. >> Yeah. So traffic engineering is a science by itself by now. very complex signs like did did you take into account how many school buses were uh traversing through this middle bush during that

637
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whole day in and out dropping and pickup? Well, we do count buses. Um we did include a heavy vehicle percentage in our analysis. Um but the pickup and drop off

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does not uh impact the analysis that we did for the driveway. >> How come sir? Like because every time school bus stops on the road at least 7 to nine stops not one bus about 15 different buses stop on that road

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morning and evening each time there's backed up traffic. Did did you have the data in your anal analytics? >> Um not specifically those cues. Um, but I'll say again, uh, you know, the the worship hours were that we studied were

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5 to 6, uh, 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m., the well discussed 5:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m., uh, 7:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m., and then 9:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. So much of those hours do not have much school bus involvement. >> No, there is school bus like in the

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morning hour and two and three is the pest of the pest in this in this township. But uh have you taken into account the parents going in and picking up during the tong? Leave leave aside the student uh school buses. >> Well, the the traffic volumes along

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South Middle Bush include passenger vehicles, buses, landscaper vehicles, motorcycles, what whatever drove by the site was was counted. >> Okay. Why why only one week of data? It's you

643
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can't you can't correlate whole year projection basing on one week of data. >> I mean generally when we do a a traffic impact assessment often we collect just one one day of data during the peak hours if we can isolate a common day

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when weather's acceptable schools and business are open and there's no detour. So I I I think in this case having 5 days of data is is appropriate. >> Um is is the is the projection

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classification giving ABC D categories? Is it based on one lane, two lane? What's the criteria? >> It's one lane in each direction. So, uh, the analysis includes our minor approach, which is the site access with one one approach coming out with a shared left turn and a right turn out to

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south middle bush. And then the south middle bush approaches include a northbound through and a shared right to enter the site and a southbound through with a shared left turn into the site. >> And does it take into account, we all know there's no shoulder either way?

647
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>> Yeah, it doesn't include a shoulder. No. I I hate to interrupt, but could you be more direct and specific with your questions? We don't need a description statement >> that he's giving. We're familiar with the intersection.

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>> Ask some direct specific questions. >> I haven't made a statement. Everything I asked is a specific question. So when there is a emergency 911 call did does your analysis say how long is the additional weight going to be

649
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>> if there's a heart attack if there's >> no no we don't take into account emergencies that that throws off all of normal conditions and can't possibly be be studied or predicted at all. Um

650
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>> so okay that's all I want to address like there's a lot of unknown known known unknowns so it's all one we get into the deep end then only we'll know what we are paying the township taxes how we are going to

651
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leverage all this thank you >> good evening Greg Foster 39 the bed drive um I I know you got your averages of people in cars from a computer software program that evidently a lot of

652
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people use. Um, but it doesn't take into effect things like, well, you know, yeah, I'm going to services, but then after that, I got to go right to work, so I'm going to drive by myself. Oh, I got to drop my kid off, so I'm going to be going by myself. or I gotta pick up

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my kid or go to the doctor or whatnot. So, I'm going to drive by myself. I think there are going to be a lot more people that will be driving by themselves than 30 cars, an average of two or three

654
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per cards. And I know you said that during special events there could be 50 cars and you did a little bit of research on it but didn't really report about it. And I'm wondering is there a

655
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reason that you didn't do 50 or 60 cars on a daily basis and five daily services that could affect the results? Um well our report was submitted to the

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board um I I don't know what date but it was performed in August of 2025. >> I haven't seen it. So >> no it was August 2025. Since that time there's been pro one or two proceedings um and there were some questions regarding you know how many people or can you know maximum be

657
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allowed within the facility and during that time it was brought to our attention from the project team like hey we should look into you know if we had 150 people show up you know in in 50 vehicles you know would everything still be okay. So, we did that analysis

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subsequent to the submission of our report um just to check it out, but like I said, there will be a traffic safety officer and with those 50 vehicles entering and exiting, we we found that there was a level service E. And I I wasn't necessarily going to provide that information tonight, but since it came

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up, I did, but it wasn't something that was part of our initial analysis. >> Okay. So, uh let's assume not really that it may happen, but let's consider that. Okay. If 50 people drove by themselves, is that now E?

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>> Yes, that based on the analysis that we did. >> Okay. And is that in the report or any of the follow-ups? >> Uh, it was not in a report. I just presented that testimony this evening. >> Okay. Thank you.

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>> Uh, hi. Uh I'm Jim Johnston, uh 34 Norwich Place. Um well, when you did your analysis of the traffic, um there's been a new development that just took place very recently. A few weeks ago, the town council announced that they're

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going to start going ahead with the building of Katapa Park. All right. Um that this is going to be a big park. uh tennis courts, basketball courts, cricket uh cricket fields, and they're going to be building it on South Minnish

663
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Road. And this is going to be a major tourist attraction probably uh you know adding a lot more traffic to South Mush Road and the town council just announced it just a few weeks ago. Are you all aware of that?

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>> I am not. No, it's it's sounds like it's very recent. >> Yes. Um actually as you may recall Kataba Park was first approved 10 years ago. >> Okay. Wait questions. >> This is for questions. It's not for giving testimony. >> Okay. Well well the gentleman said he

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wasn't aware of it. So >> Right. So that's okay. You've got your answer. >> Okay. All right. So So maybe you know somebody can tell him about it. Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. Hi, Harvey Sera 8 Benjamin Griggs Drive. Um, in your tools, do you put the speed

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limit in there? So, because I'm trying to understand queuing, does the speed limit affect the information that you put into your tool? >> We do input it. It doesn't necessarily affect it. Uh, no. No, it does not. >> It doesn't. Okay. Do you know what the

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speed limit is on that road? >> Uh, yeah, I do. I believe and I have it in my notes. I believe it's 45 miles per hour, but I was >> Yeah, 45 miles per hour. >> Okay. Well, it could be 45, but most of us aren't able to drive 45 during that

668
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period of time. So, based upon the fact that we can only probably drive maybe 30 to 35. Wouldn't that change the uh amount of wait time that people would have on that road during the especially during the peak hours?

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um what what allows people to exit from or enter a major roadway from a minor roadway is um gaps in traffic. >> Mhm. >> So gaps in traffic don't necessarily change based on speed limit. If everybody's traveling 45 miles hour,

670
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they're still this far apart. But if they're traveling at 25 miles per hour, they're still this far apart. So vehicles are traveling slow. As long as there's sufficient gaps in the traffic, regardless of speed, >> um it doesn't have an impact the the speed limit. It's just I

671
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>> I mean, I would argue that if it's a faster speed, you have less of a chance to merge in and out as opposed to a small a slower speed. >> Correct. Maybe I wasn't clear. It's not the distance of the gap as much as it's the time of the gap. >> So, at a higher speed, gaps close faster. You know, a car's coming on you

672
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fast, one car whips by, another car whips by, >> right? Um, so it's basically if you have um the the program uses about a 7-second gap for a left turn movement. So if you're traveling 45 miles per hour, the

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vehicles are traveling 45 miles per hour or they're traveling 25 miles per hour, you still need that same size time of gap to recognize a car coming, put your foot on the gas, and make the full left turn. Well, I mean, you might have a a s same gap, but your reaction time is a

674
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lot different going 45, 35, etc. >> Sir, you're you're now engaged in a conversation. I'm sorry. >> Not asking questions. >> Like I said, it's a time based gap. So, it it's irrelevant of speed. I think what you're saying is of the size of the gap. So if there was, you know,

675
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a 50ft gap in cars going 45 miles per hour or 25 in that case, yes, it would be much harder to get into a small physical gap at a higher speed. >> Okay. So, >> but the program um looks at at gaps for for time, not for size.

676
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>> Right. So, in that interval though, when you're looking at especially at the I guess the 5:00 pm time frame, >> um wouldn't the traffic queue up longer during that period of time based upon the fact that you're actually not able

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to do the 50 mph or 45 mph speed >> possibly? Not necessarily. Um like I said, it's it's dependent on the volume of traffic. um the volume of traffic coming out of the driveway. Um

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you know, you could have high-speed traffic that's separated farther apart. >> So, it's dependent. It's it's unique to each situation. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Last one.

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>> I think I know you my mind. >> Rajes Sangu Hes Franklin Park. My question is your study was done in 24 work from home now it's 26 things have changed now

680
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people are everybody going to work so are you planning to do or have you in uh I guess use those data or create a model to reflect that >> um I I I mean I don't believe

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um or based on our experience there wasn't that much of a change in traffic in 2024 from I I assume you're referencing uh co time frames uh things that opened up substantially more um if that's what you're asking

682
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>> 24 I mean now it is but not that time >> and we're only we're only talking about like 15 months or so from the time of our report was done >> and thereafter a lot of things change within uh government policies which is basically forcing everyone to come to work wasn't the case before and that's

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basically what I'm reflecting. >> Uh >> so the question is whether are we actually going to encount >> that's not my intention. No like I like I said we we we counted that week. We we applied a growth factor to account for any kind of growth outside of the normal

684
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conditions and um you know our analysis shows what it is. Last question I have is the you mentioned that the sunrise, sunset depending upon the traffic what you have done the pattern analysis. Is it a fixed

685
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time? Are we having going to have all the throughout the year or during the summer time there'll be different time of practice will be done versus winter versus >> how is the timeline I say is it fix

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every day throughout the year? That was my understanding provided by information when we prepared our report. >> Okay. So assuming that it's this is not changing. >> That's basically >> that's my Yeah, that's my understanding. >> Okay. Thank you.

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>> Okay. We'll close to the public. We need to get a a new date. All of you might wait. You might be interested in knowing that because that'll be your public notice for the next hearing on this. your extremely capable clerk already called me today to talk about that.

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Um and um I I wish we could get in sooner, but I was told the next uh meeting date that you have is July 2nd. And if we can't get in sooner than that, then we're available July 2nd.

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>> Okay. So, you won't be getting in any sooner than that. So, Tahi Dawa Center ZBA 240017 uh will be heard here at Franklin Township Municipal Building, 475 Damont Lane at 7:30 p.m. on July 2nd

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and then uh I'll need an extension letter from you. >> You did get the one last time, right? >> Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Uh yes, I'll agree to an extension through uh July 2nd, a meeting of July 2nd and I'll follow it by letter. I may not get that to you tomorrow.

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>> Okay. >> I probably won't be in my office tomorrow. >> Okay, sounds good. Thank you. >> Next week I will. I promise. >> Okay, then we need a motion to adjourn. >> Moved second. Second. All >> in favor? I >> I opposed meeting and journ