Good evening everyone to tonight's meeting of the Gardener Zoning Board of Appeals uh October 21st and we'll get it should be it's a light night. We have one case. Uh but before we get started,
I'm going to go over the ground rules by which this board operates. In Gardner, three four members out of five of the zoning board of appeals must be present to conduct a legal hearing. You'll see we have four tonight and we have several that cannot make it. So,
this will be the four. Um, applications will normally heard in the sequence in which they appeared in the public notice. All hearings shall be open to the public and no person shall be excluded unless he or she is considered to be a
hindrance to the workings of the board. An applicant may appear in his or her own behalf or be represented by agent or attorney. The applicant or his or her representative shall present the case to the board. Representatives of the city
shall be heard. Our butters to the property present shall be heard. Those in opposition to the application shall be heard. The board must render its decision regarding variance request within 100 days after the application was duly
filed in the office of the city clerk. The board regarding special permits must conduct a public hearing within 65 days after the application was filed in the office of the city court. Board must renders decision regarding special
permits within 90 days after the closing of the public hearing. All four members out of five or in this case tonight, all four members must vote in favor of the variance or special permit for be granted and approved. When
you have a five member board, it's not a four out of five is a majority. That's okay. When doing four mean four members like this evening, there's no no majority. It has to be unanimous. Okay. The right to appeal the decision
of this board is provided for in chapter 4A of the zoning act. The information is available in the office of the city clerk. No variance of special permit or any extension, modification or renewal thereof shall take effect on until
notification from the city clerk that 20 days have elapsed after the decision has been filed in the office of the city clerk and no appeals have been filed and is recorded in the registry of deeds for the county or district.
The board requests that each person identify himself or herself as to name and address and address before addressing the board. Sitting on tonight's hearing side, my five far left, Robert writes,
David Antea, to my right, Richard Hanks, and myself, Ray Leon, the chair. The meeting will be taped and videotaped. Does anyone object to that? Okay, are we ready to begin? Yes, sir.
>> Okay, let's begin. So, the first individual first I'm going to read the case first. Got it. Good. I didn't have it in my packet. Okay. The first case tonight is case 2025101.
The variance request. NH signs 4 Oak Street, parcel ID M22-4-57, seeking sign requirements relief. who is going to present. Thank you.
>> Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Good evening, board members. My name is Peter Marge, New Hampshire Signs, 66 Gold Ledge Avenue, Auburn, New Hampshire. Thank you. So requesting a variance for a sign uh
for a site that is currently shell but will be come nura uh at four oak street in gardener site the site is zoned C1 and we're requesting a bear from the following sections 675
970 uh that refers to signs permitted in commercial and industrial districts which states among other things. Um, no portion of wall sign or individual letter sign shall project more than one foot from the face of the wall. We're
not we're not uh uh we're compliant with that. The part we're not we're requesting a variance from is that it says in no case shall shall a sign project above a parapit wall. So my pointer is not working terribly
well on those screens for some reason showing it with mouse. Um but the sign in question was the rear sign on that brown uh parapit. Um and uh the the uh
uh that is really the subject of this discussion. So I'm sure you're familiar with Naria. There's a number of sites in in town, but they're a local brand uh Worcester that's investing heavily in the sea store market. Um they are a very
good quality brand and they bring a lot of uh good fresh wholesome foods to neighborhoods. Uh the in interior of the stores are bright uh well well lit. Uh the exteriors are also bright and well lit.
and they've been taking uh sites like for example Shell and converting them to the rear sites. Um they have had multiple accolades u for uh the uh design appearance and the way that they operate these stores. So recently uh for
the second year in a row they won a sea store in the country uh an accolade for being the top sea store in the country. So they're a welcome addition to uh the conventional somewhat downtrodden uh branded sites.
Um one of the things about NAR is that the logo is round. So that creates some some different sort of issues from your typical linear logo. So if you look at Sigler logo, it's linear. Mobile is logo. In the rear's case, it's a round
logo. And um if you look at what we're proposing, we're actually allowed 80 square ft of signage on that wall. The Duncan is 13 square ft and the sign we're requesting um is 16. So we're well under the 80 square ft that we would be
allowed. The issue is really the fact that the sign the building inspector, the previous building inspector I believe, determined that the sign protrudes above a parapit wall. There a little bit of discussion on that but um
to the points of the variance enforcement of of the provisions of this code would involve substantial hardship financial or otherwise to the petitioner. Um the code refers in simple terms to parapit wall but it doesn't
define it clearly. Um, it does however say that the following is not a sign. Integral decorative or architectural features of the building. That brown piece that you see the Naria logo on is actually a um it's a a structure made of
a product called Niha board which is a a um plastic plasticized metal piece and it forms a a proper parapit on that on that wall to which we attach sign that particular sign and a couple of
decorative features. I think the building inspector had determined that the parapit wall in this particular case is the light uh brown parapit wall, not the dark brown parit wall to which we've attached the sign. Um,
so that's really what we're asking for is some relief to allow us to mount the sign on the dark parapit wall and not uh uh have uh the determination that the light parapit wall is the one that he's talking about. I can I can go into
further detail, but I think it's relatively hopefully I've explained that relatively clearly. Um so the site's at a busy intersection as I'm sure you're aware West Park or Nicholls um approaching traffic has limited visibility due to that uh island
due to the sea store can to the gas station canopy the columns and also the sign. So having a decent sign in that position particularly a high sign a larger sign is is particularly important. We like to have the sign
above the door because that tells people where the door is. It tells people where the entrance is. So to do a decent sized nar logo in this location, we really have to have it of the size and we have to mount it to that non-parit parapit
wall um the brown nichi wall and um so really this requires a configuration I believe that we've suggested um uh it gives much better visibility. If we weren't to do that, the petitioner at
Naria would suffer uh damage because we'd put putting a tiny sign on that wall that no one would see. Um and uh to me it's a a minuscule uh difference between putting it where we're putting it and um you know
maintaining the height above the second parable wall. To the second point, desirable relief may be granted without detriment to the public good. Good visibility is essential to safe traffic flow. Uh this sign achieves that
goal. There's no detriment to the public at all. Um clear readable signage is in of itself um a feature that enhances safety. So we'd argue that it promotes safety. It is a is a positive has a positive benefit.
To the third point, desirable relief may be granted without nullifying or substantially deraggating from the intent or purpose of this code but not otherwise. Purpose of code is to promote the general welfare of the city of gardener to protect the health and
safety, convenience and general welfare of its inhabitants. This variance improves traffic safety by adding a moderatelysized again it's a 16 square foot sign. It just happens to be a round sign, not a a square sign or a rectangular sign.
Otherwise, it's completely conforming and it's in a visible location. And Naria in of itself is a worthy addition to this part of town, I believe. Um, I'm happy to answer any other questions. >> Mr. rice.
>> The uh sign attached to the brown uh plasticized wood. Is that brown plasticized wood a wall system in itself or is it attached to
the wall behind it? >> It's a wool system in in of itself. It's a thick um uh uh structure built like any other building structure. >> I I guess my question is does the light tan wall
run behind your proposed sign? >> Yes, it does. >> So you are attaching that to the parapit wall. >> Correct. But in of itself, >> it's not flush with the power pit wall.
>> It's not flush with the power pit wall. No. >> So it's not structural. >> It's not structural. No. But I would um argue that it it falls into the category of integral decorative or architectural
features of the building. And um that part of it is not a sign according to the code. >> Did you also put the sign at the Shell station on Pearson Boulevard? The Noria >> I'm going to have to ask my colleague to
answer that. I'll introduce >> I'm Grant Michael with New Hampshire signs as well. I kind of run the NIA account for New Hampshire signs. >> Address please before addressing Uh Grant Michael 66 Gold Ledge AB, Auburn, New Hampshire.
>> Okay. This is a vertical sign in that it is higher than it is wide. >> It's actually a circular sign >> at the Pearson Boulevard. It's more horizontal. It is longer than
it is high. Have did you think about duplicating the dimensions? >> No. So, um they're set up kind of building specific. We did not do that location. Um we have done many of their
their signs, but we haven't done all of them. Um for instance, we haven't done the other one on Oak Street either. But that has a canopy that comes kind of across that front of that building. And so it does not allow the st this would be more of like their standard procedure
or standard like look of the building where the other one was kind of done because of the canopy restriction going over that building. So it's kind of like elongated there to fit that I guess. Um I wasn't involved in that, but that's the only thing because we have done um a
couple under canopy ones in New Hampshire that were kind of maybe set up a little differently that were, you know, but this would be kind of cuz the sign itself is kind of a circular when you box it out, it's basically a square. So usually when they build these
boxes for the buildings as far as a building element, that's done as like a square as well. just kind of it fits kind of a box inside of a box. Uh but it is building specific on what they're doing the storefront doors like they try to make sure that the architectural
features match up and stuff. So it's not like they have a 3x6 that they throw everywhere, right? It's case by case. >> Okay. I think what he's saying is that it's this is the statue. >> Yeah. So is this the building where that
that's going? >> So are you renovating the front of the building? >> We are not doing anything but Naria is and they've got a building permit in. So they have a building permit in for everything that you see up here besides the sign. We are only responsible for
the sign itself. But yes, they are doing building renovations to paint the building, add some architectural features. they will build out that box and all that stuff. So, it has that work has nothing to do with us specifically, but yes, it is part of this project. >> I didn't know if are are they raising
the front area? Do you know or is that your sign going right on the same >> uh what do I want to say? The way this is already built out. So, your sign is just going above the the two doors.
Yeah, they use a frame construction that they add on to do that and they add the the board paneling on the front. But yes, it will not be they will not like go into the building to do that. It is like kind of a built on structure up front as an architectural feature.
>> And and again, I want to be clear, the brown part or cam part of your sign is going to be attached right to here. And then the sign itself will be attached to the tan section.
>> Correct. Or to the it'll be attached in the cheerboard. >> Okay. All right. So it's like two parts. You have the the base which is the tan and then the second part would be the sign itself.
Uh so the you've got the building would be the light tan that's up there that light beige and then they build um they basically frame out an area that they put that niche system on. So that'd be kind of your second thing and then we put our sign onto that. They call it
portico or whatever. They put we just put our sign onto that and the n the chia board is structural enough that we can attach our sign into that >> and it's a thick you know >> it's like it's like your deck you know your tracks decking for your a deck at your house same type of material
>> but the structure is the structure is a deep structure it's not a it's not a >> it's framed out like a wall would be >> okay thank you >> yeah the head >> good evening gentlemen >> good evening So, is that the only sign you're doing?
There's right now when I come down, there's a a pole sign that says Shell on it. Are you putting a logo on that as well? >> So, we have permits for everything else. So, the the main ID, which would be that freestanding sign that you see, the pole sign. >> Yes. >> So, that is basically staying within the
same framework only the shell goes away. It becomes an ARA. We update kind of the digits and stuff like that, but we have a permit for that. Okay. >> And then there's two canopy logos existing that are on the that like shell pectins that are on the canopy and those basically those come off and they get
replaced. There's um blue ones of these. So they're blue with like the white and brown. Those go on the canopy. So we have permits for those. And then the only other thing is this building sign which is kind of there's their standard package here. >> Okay. >> Dunkin Donuts is existing. That doesn't that's not
>> right. So, so, so I can see the you brought up the shell sign that that's that's going to become the Noria logo on that >> just like that. Correct. >> And then on the canopy, you're going to have the Noria on the corners of the canopy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Turning from shell. >> So, so this this sign that you're trying to go above the parapit is just to say,
"Hey, here's my front door." >> Correct. And to try and identify the front door. And I'd argue that it's not really that the cheerboard uh structure is not really a sign. It's more like a parit wall. it own all all on its own.
>> So So but the but but the the whole dark brown with the circle that says no the that's kind of their their logo that background the dark brown backdrop. Correct. >> Yes sir. >> Uh yeah I mean not always. That's their
intended feature. But if you look at like um let's one of the other ones in site is basically on a wood background. So, sometimes when they have like a peaked um roof, depending on what has been there before, and there's siding on there, they'll paint the siding like a
dark brown when you put that on there, too. >> Um so, it's not always like that's part of the sign. Like, we wouldn't >> on a on a situation like that, we wouldn't build one of these boxes just to put that box on there and put the sign on there. It's not like that. This is like an architectural feature that
they do the stores because the stores they're branding even It's the same name. Kind of the look on the store they have here is kind of their convenience store look and then the blue with all the other stuff is like the fuel. So that's why a lot of times you'll see
like it'll still be shelves but they'll have like a Naria convenience store. So there is some like variations to like the differences here if it's not just like it's obviously subtle because it's the same logos but it is a differentiating feature between like the
convenience store section and the gas section. Well, well, I've seen several Noras and like I said, you know, they're they're a great store. They they do a good job >> and I've seen them from little tiny Noras to bigger ones. So, so they it's it's not one sizefits-all. Obviously,
>> it isn't, but the the intent is to make the look uh move across the entire NAR network. You've got to remember that NAR has has been doing uh sea stores like this for quite some time. The design has invol
evolved over time. This is pretty well the standard look and feel that they want to achieve if if at all they can. >> Uh so that when you go to a na here or one in Worcester or one in New Hampshire or wherever you have the same look. So that's the intent. Um now you will see
other NAS that have possibly older NAS that have uh morphed over time and they'll catch up on the second cycle of renovation. >> Yeah. Obviously this is their logo. This is there, you know, no difference in the the other big restaurants and stuff. You see that golden arch, you know what they
are, you know. So, and same thing. You see their sign, you know who they are, you know what's inside them. >> Um, I I guess my question comes in, okay, so this this sign is trying to let you know where your front door is because you've already got the your sign on the pole and that's going to be there
that you're going to pick that up as you come down the street or come up the other way because I'm sure it's two-sided. And then you have on the corners of the canopy, >> right? Yes. >> Okay. >> So this identifies the sea store more completely. One of the things that one
of the things that is the arbiter of success for NA is that the gasoline business is becoming less and less important and the sea store business is becoming more and more important. So if you go to that Shell station, it's the
typical you know chips and coke and you know chewing gum and cigarettes and that sort of stuff. What Naria is trying to do is they're trying to promote this um almost like a mini um >> Oh, I've been in the store. >> So, so it's a high quality type thing.
So, identifying the door is pretty pretty important to them and that's that's the real purpose behind that. >> The sign itself is within code. It's just the placement of it, how it relates to the building. >> Correct. >> So, so, so I guess what what I'm trying to get at is where's the hardship of
that has to stick up above the parapit again? I'm going to see you. I I could always see the shell. I could always see that it's a food. I could always see that coming down the road, you know. I've always seen that, you know. So, it's it's not like um by that sticking up proud that that's
going to lure me any more than this did, you know. So, I'm just tossing that out there. I'm just trying to see where the hardship is that what what makes this unique from the next person that wants to extend over the parapit. Well, part part of the issue is obviously the definition of a parapit wall. Um, and I
understand the original intent of the code. It's a common part of sign code. You don't want bits sticking up above roof lines. And most you many many towns have that restriction. In this particular case, the big question is, is this a parapit wall? Is it is it in
denying the variance? at achieving the goal of what you're trying to achieve, which is making sure there's not signs sticking up in the air all over the place, but they're on firm backers. So, I'd argue that I'd argue in this particular case, if we would put a a
round logo on that wall, it would be absolutely tiny. Um, and the argument also would be that the cheer is not really a parapit wall. It's a part of the integral structure of the building. It's not loadbearing. doesn't carry any load or it doesn't
have any feature other than a sort of an architectural feature but it is nevertheless an architectural feature not assign as the code defines it. >> Which code? >> Uh your code. >> So the code basically says integral
it it says the following is not a sign integral decorative or architectural features of the building. And I I don't have that section to handy, but I I know that it's in the in the garden code. >> So your your your intent is to build an architectural feature. >> Yes.
>> Well, not us. >> Well, yeah, we're all very >> because that that's that what's sticking above the parapit. Now, although the roof line is not there, so it's not an existing architectural feature of the building. It's not like you got fancy corbals that you're going to cover with your sign or
anything like that. No, I'm just saying that I'm just saying that that uh would be more of an architectural feature than a sign uh by definition. If it's an architectural feature, then in a way um
the sign is on an architectural feature, not a another sign. Do you see the logic? I don't >> I see where you're angling from, but I I don't see that as a >> I I I see you're creating a sign, not an architectural feature.
>> Yeah. So, we're putting the sign on architectural feature. So, that if it is an architectural feature, not a sign, then the sign we're proposing is not actually above the parapit. It's above, you know, it's it's on an architectural feature. So, there's a little bit of an argument uh on that.
I guess one thing too is they're going to build that that parapit which they they've gotten a permit for. If you try to do a a smaller sign that fit below that par sign it would be offc center look just look really weird like it would just it would not look as intended
as far as like a balanced look for the front of the building. >> Okay. >> But I'm not texting. I'm just looking up definitions. Don't don't don't think I'm ignoring you. >> I forgot my code book today, but so I'm just going to so don't don't think I'm I'm still listening.
>> Early in your presentation, you stated if this was not granted, there'd be financial hardship to capital. I have not heard what the financial hardship would be. >> The the store would be less successful if you couldn't identify it. Um the
rationale behind all signage is to make sure that a building or you know a commercial enterprise is well marked and well identified. If we to make this smaller that the it would be less uh well identified and less
commercially viable. Now that's a good definition but I don't buy all of it because this store has been around for many years. Yep. >> You just don't have the traveling public coming in. Oh, there's an arena. That's
what we've been looking for. Most of the traffic is local. >> Yep. >> City of Gardener. Some people visiting but have been here. You've got the big shell sign sitting out there. And if that's going to say no, >> you can't miss that.
>> Yeah. And if you need to tell people exactly where the doors are to get in, we've got a problem. Because it's the only two fully glass, according to this,
two fully glassed entrance pieces. Everything else is a wall. >> Yeah. >> So, it's kind of easy to see where the doors are. >> Mhm. I mean, and I'm looking is that the only Noria sign or does Noria have
different size signs? They they have different size signs. They have they have signs in different locations. But essentially in this location, what we're trying to do is we're trying to perpetuate the image that Nura has has um essentially evolved
to in the last probably four years. So most of the other signs, not all of them, most of the other signs were produced before Nurius essentially um identified that image as to where they wanted to go. So there's a there's an
element in all signage and all imaging of this sort um that you really want where you can to get continuity and the continuity part is the part that that we're trying to achieve here. You don't achieve continuity, you do lose revenue
because people don't identify the continuity of one site from another. >> Are any of their signs illuminated internally? >> This one here. Okay. This one here is halo lit. So this sign here, the the word nar, the white circle and the green
circle are halo l sorry face lit, but the back of that is halo. So it it is a very subtle light. It's not a very not a very heavy light. It's not like a McDonald's where you have the whole thing >> glaring. So, >> but it's eye-catching. So, it really
sort of eliminates the Noria, etc. as you look at it. So, what is preventing Nora from lowering the size of the sign so it doesn't go over the parapet? They can shrink the size of the circle
of Maria or if it's going to be, as you said, I'll call it illuminated. It still is not detrimental to what's going on. It's still above the doors coming down. And
>> sorry, >> unfortunately, you lost an argument last year because you know where the circle is before you get here. That would be here. >> Yeah. And that's when traffic goes around and goes off. We had a about a 40
foot Christmas tree right there which actually blocked off the front of this store. I mean, people knew where Shell was, but it blocked off. Unfortunately, nature took care of that last year. The tree came down. So, now it's open.
>> Yeah. as people come down this way and they're either going to Parker Street, West Street, Nickel Street, Oak Street. I did it as a clock. So if I'm looking at the sign right now, 6:00 at the
bottom would be about the splitting of Parker and West coming down. So that's probably like a seven, eight, and a four. But then around 3:00 that's that would be going off to Oak Street. >> Yep.
>> Nine o'clock goes right off to Nickel Street. >> Yep. >> Everything is wide open. There's nothing in that whole area coming down to obliterate that sign. The one point I'd raise is that the Nia paraped is 18 in
higher than the regular paraped. So if we were to put a sign, this sign is currently four feet. So if we were to put a sign in that location, it would essentially have in size if we wanted to keep it as a C circular sign, which NARA has a legitimate goal of trying to
maintain. So you'd land up with not a 4ft sign, but you land up with a twoft sign, which is very much smaller than is optimal in that location. what would greatly impact the actual legibility of the letters because right now once you shrink those letters because the letters
are only about a quarter the size of the sign itself. So if you shrink that sign down everything gets shrink down and it becomes very hard and illogical to >> Yeah. But you have some good distance on the periphery of the sign. I'll look at
your thing in the green that's just circular around most of Naria but to the right left and top and bottom you've got distance there so really your
you would shrink your black I mean if you got a little smaller sign fine but you can shrink that a little bit at least on the top to come down to the parapit I don't I just I'm not convinced that you are from hardship.
I don't see it. The hardship is yes, you won't be able to see so much so they can't sell more. Your profit is not in our ordinance to say, you know, the applicant has to be generating more revenue, but it's the
hardship of why you needed to violate the zoning ordinance. If you're generating less revenue, then the store and the site become less viable and there is an economic argument to say that that is is a situation. So
if we're if we're not as successful because people can't see where we are, then it puts the enterprise at some risk. >> So a couple things a parapit so so lack of a definition of a of a bylaw or you can go with the common definition. So a
parapit is a low protective wall or barrier built along the edge of a roof. And you said this is going to be forward of the roof. Balcony or terrace servant to prevent falls, conceal rooftop equipment or and enhance the building's visual design. >> It enhances the visual design.
>> Yeah. But prior when when when he asked you how does this sitting on top of the roof edge and you said no, it protrudes off the building. It's not part of it. >> Yeah. basically gets built out from. >> So yeah. >> So have you considered building a pair of wall across the whole front?
>> You're asking us to give you give you your leak because your your sign is sticking above >> the roof line. Why not build a parapit wall across the whole front? Conceal your your all your equipment that's up there and then your sign is on the parapit wall.
>> The the cost of doing that would be prohibitive. >> You sure about that? I'm pretty >> That's your opinion. Have you talked to your client? >> I I haven't, but I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure that building a parapit wall would be would be expansive.
>> Or wouldn't that be considered parapit wall if it was just tied in to the building? Doesn't that become part of that parapit wall if they ti if they tied into the top of that building? >> Right now they have they are planning on doing this without the sign. you'd have a blank space there and it essentially
becomes a building with the parid part of the parapit wall. >> Okay, I think that's a good point because if you decide you want to, you know, put another 18 in on the on the on the light tan
uh wall to bring that up. Um then essentially you're doing the same thing as putting the nia, you know, the dark rod on it. So you see the struggle we have to have is that you know we have an ordinance right >> and you know here here's our basic rules
whether we like them or not and and in order for us to grant you a lawful variance is that you have to have demonstrate to us there's something unique about this property >> that the next gas station down the road doesn't have the same right so what's so unique about this that you have to be higher we've already established you
have a nice pole sign up front that says no rear on it >> you got no rear on the on the canopy and now you're just trying to identify where front door this and I realize the bigger the better because you know you just really want to pop and you but again you you have to demonstrate to us how can we grant you a lawful variance that exceeds
the requirements of our bylaw whether we like them or not. You follow that? >> Essentially we're we're being very modest on sign sizes. This thing is 16 square ft. The Dunkin Donuts is 13. So we're 29 square feet. We would be allowed 80 uh under these circumstances.
So, we're being very very modest in the type of sign uh you know in the in the size of sign we're looking at. The the real issue uh I would argue is whether the brown cheer box is a parapit or not.
And I would argue that it in the in the lack of a definition it to me it looks like a parapit. It feels like a parapit. It probably is a parapit. One thing they try to do is usually we research the um town ordinances for them and we usually use a sign within code
and then size the office around that. So that's why like the size of the sign would be allowed by code. It's just the fact of how it laces. So like we could do a much larger sign on you know somewhere else on the building but it's how they want it placed based on architectural consistency. You know it's
like Cumberland Farms right? you see everything consistent with Cumberland Farms on how they do stuff, but we didn't we it's not like we're trying to get a 8ft sign and built a 8ft, you know, canopy. We're trying to stay within the confines, but just kind of, you know, >> and we're bringing in a rear sign 18 in
above the existing parapit, a minuscule amount. Yeah, >> I think you you brought up Duncan. Duncan meets the requirements and not violating every anything. So, I mean, I don't look at that as an argument to get this sign that Duncan is, you know,
Duncan's doing what it's supposed to do. You're asking for an exception to the ordinance. You haven't convinced me of the hardship yet. And I mean, I thought Mr. Hanks puts it, well, just build up the wall a little.
You know, the cost of that that's borne by Norer, and I'm sure the revenue, the extra revenue they generate will cover the cost of that very quickly. And that would take care of the thing. Or else shrink the sign and get in close
as close as possible. If you were talking here, it's 2 in over the parapit. I wouldn't even be arguing. 2 in is fine. That nobody would even know it unless they got up there and looked at it. But, you know, we're talking it's going up further or it's not in the line
of the roof line or or par line. You you may not be able to make a determination this, but I' I' I'd maybe uh propose something. If we took the parapit and we built the parapit up 5t out and we brought it up into a curve
and it landed up at the top of the br the dark brown box and then dropped off the other side. So the parapit itself is was increasing in height. Would that would that satisfy the >> I can't answer that because that'd be the decision of the building inspector.
>> Okay. >> But there's nothing in the ordinance that says the parapit wall has to be of uniform height. >> Correct. So we could >> So you would not necessarily have to build the parapit up for the whole length of the building. You just
have to build it up for the sections immediately to the right and left of your architectural. Maybe maybe it would be a gentle curve. >> Maybe you have like I want to say two or three feet on each side of the sign and
it would come up. It could come up. But that decision is for the building commissioner, not for us. >> I understand that. >> Yeah. So, so if if you if the building commissioner officer says that, yeah, that's a parapit wall now. You don't need us. >> Okay. >> Right. >> Yeah. No,
>> because it it you know, we're just going by the pure pure definition of the ordinance. that it can't stick up above the roof line or a parapit. >> That's why I'm saying, well, why don't you build a parapit? >> Right. That would be in fact part of the parapit. I mean, if it's tied into the building, it could be considered part of
>> So, that may be a that may be a solution to to what we're requesting. >> So, I'm going to It seems that you're embracing that potential solution. >> Yeah. >> My I just want to make sure. Are you
going to be the the sign is 2 feet 3 in uh too tall? Is that what this measurement means from the wall right here? two feet three inches. >> The nichia the the back or the
architectural feature of the building would be two foot three above the the par existing parapit >> but the sign doesn't encompass all of that just encompasses about 18 in. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then that's the interesting thing is like again that's
kind of their u part of their design feature is that that dark brown background. So what is the sign versus what is the backdrop which is the parapit you know so I'm struggling with that one cuz you know are we only
looking at the circle or we looking at that whole thing that creates that visual aspect of you know the back doc brown backdrop >> again I'd argue but the your code basically says that you know in integral
decorative or architectural features of the building are not considered signage. So I'd argue that this is a an integral architectural feature or it's not really decorative but it's uh it would be an integral. So it's not a sign. So the sign I think the building inspector was
talking about was the literally the na the nura circle not the brown thing not the niche board. So could you explain to me one more time? And I know you explained it earlier is so how is how is that square
constructed? >> So it's it it uh floats back into the roof section. Um and it basically is essentially if if that that's your roof section. It it looks like that. And there's an entire
structure behind there's an entire structure behind that on the roof. And basically it it comes off the roof. uh or comes off the fasia by um >> so they so these get framed basically into the building where they come up
they come over and they come down >> and get framed in like a wall would but they actually come in and attach over that parapit to give it like structure so it's not just like on there. So it actually is hooked to the building. >> So if you look at several feet behind it there's there the structure that that
supports the whole nija board. So the dark brown portion that actually is outboard of the roof edge >> and inboard. Yeah, both. It basically like comes over. So you got a thing and it's kind of it comes up here, comes
over the wall and it comes back down because that becomes their structure onto the top of that parapit. So they have to cut into this somehow and basically gets framed out like you would a a normal wall. >> And it's connected. >> Yeah, it's connected. Yeah, it's basically comes over and hugs. It's like
if you were to hug something over an edge it gets attached through that and that's like where it can't go anywhere rather than if you just had something face attached up here it could >> so then it becomes part >> it's part of the wall I mean >> go over the >> yeah it's becomes part of the wall it's
not like you can't just take it off >> it's not hooked in a sense it's not just hooked on it's actually the wall >> it's attached to the wall you're not cutting out the wall behind it and making Yeah,
>> the parrot pit. >> The term almost is shoe box to the wall. >> You're attaching it to the parrot. Correct. >> That's what I was thinking. >> So flower boxes you see on railings. >> It's not like that, >> but it goes up like this. So they drop it down and they don't have nails. It doesn't
>> Yeah. No, it's not it's not like that. It's much more substantial behind this. It's much more of a >> You know, it's much more of a structure. it's properly framed and you know uh incorporated into into the structure. >> Bob, do you have any other question?
>> No, I have no other questions. >> No, I'm sorry. I don't have any more unprepared tonight. Um, we've talked about a number of things here. So, we're looking at, let's
say, item one, exactly what you've submitted, and we're saying it violates. And at least in my opinion, you haven't convinced me about the hardship yet. Item two, you could build a parapit out that whole
length of that wall. Now, that could be expensive. >> Item three, if maybe you leave your sign I know there'll be four items. You can leave your sign and you build something out that looks attractive.
>> Yes, that would be, >> you know, sort of goes up and then there >> and then touch base with the commissioner if she's okay with that. >> Now, I know it didn't say it's okay. I'm just saying touch base. >> Yeah. >> Or the fourth thing is change that sign
and make it smaller and meet the existing par. You know, you can I know and I already asked the question about the size because several years ago we had an applicant adamant for the sign they needed necessary to
generate revenue or people could see it etc. And I asked the question, is that the only sign your company has? No, >> they had multiple sizes so they could meet either most ordinances or make a
quick change on the size. So that's why I asked the question. >> I had behind me >> knowing that most companies don't have one sign. >> They're flexible. >> They have to be. So, I mean, those are couple of things, the four things that
are on the table. I'll tell you this, I'm not going to vote on this tonight because we got four things on the table. If that's okay with you, gentlemen, I would like you to think about the four things that we
talked about. Go to the building commissioner and talk with her. What we can do tonight is we can continue your case to next month. option one. Option two, you don't like
it, you can you can withdraw this application without creditors. That means you can come back any time. Or three, continue the case the next month, have your monthly meeting with the building commissioner. You'll know what
position you are in after you talk with her. Then you come back next month and you might say, "I think we have this solved. The commissioner is okay with this. We don't have a problem. >> Maybe we don't have a problem. Maybe we can move toward the next
>> the company here says build the whole thing over or we're going to shrink the sign. >> Hopefully you will have an answer next month. >> I believe >> Mariela, what's the date for next month? >> Um I only asking because I'm going to be
in the Wyoming part of November. >> That's not hunting, is it? I I'm forced to go. >> Yes question. >> Yeah question. So basically if we talk to the building commissioner they say that that part of a parapit wall or if we can make that as part of the parapit wall and that would be
>> if if if you if you talk to building commissioner the building commissioner agrees with you that you are building a a parapit wall then you're going to withdraw your petition with us because you don't need a variance at that. Okay. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you.
You know, so again, talk to your client, find out if they're willing to build a parapit wall or look look at design as to what can we do to make it look attractive that and talk to commissioner and say, "Hey, we're thinking about building this. We think it's a parapit wall and then your sign does not go
exceed it, then you don't need us." >> Y >> and then then we're not put in a horrible position next time someone else comes along and say, "Well, you did it for them." And >> you know so we we we have to be cautious that you know do you have other alternatives you know ra you know if you had no other alternative and
>> u but I'm not seeing that you don't at this point personally >> you know just to be fair would you >> and I just want to add one more statement it's the 18th next month I will be back Mr. Rice will be gone.
However, we can put him on conference call. >> Y >> and still conduct the meeting with him on conference call. But I just want you to know that that we're not going to all of a sudden next month. >> Yeah. You you shouldn't be >> We have some work to do between now and then. We'll do that work. We'll do the
leg work and make sure that we hopefully get the building and commissioner to agree that what we're doing is >> that would be ideal. Then you don't need a variance and it was lovely to meet you. to be. And by the way, I'm not British. I'm South African. >> I'm sorry.
>> Everyone thinks I'm British. You You said I'm from the UK. Now I'm I'm South African. >> Right. >> Yes. >> Are are we requesting a continuence? >> Are you requesting to do it? >> We request it. We'd like to request a continuous.
>> Okay. Should we vote on anything that continues? >> I was asking that because if we're requesting it, then there's no charge. if they're requesting it, there's a charge. >> So, we've done a number of things. So, I just want to bring that up.
>> And we don't have an option for splitting it. >> So, so unfortunately, Gardner requires uh you re you pay a fee to have a continuous. >> So, you're requesting the continuance. >> We're requesting the >> Mariela will give you a form or
something and sign it off and then we can move forward. I mean, I think your project has is has a lot of merit. >> Thank you. >> But it doesn't get around the ordinance. And I'm not saying you didn't do well. You did. Unfortunately, Gardens's
ordinance um >> it could be updated. >> It needs to be updated. It's it's old. >> Um I think 10 or 12, maybe a few more years since it was last updated. Before that, it was about 20. So, and I know it's being talked about through the
council potentially of do running it, but to do a full-blown review of the ordinance and get a new one. >> The last charge was $80,000. >> It's a lot of money >> and it's a long process. I understand that. Many many towns are faced with the same thing.
>> Yeah. >> Can do you have to allow roof signs? >> Do we what? >> Allow roof signs. Like roof signs. Signs roof. I said I just want to do that. >> Sorry question. >> I'm going to say no.
>> What? >> Probably not. >> Um, yeah. So, so as far as the product goes in the rea and everything, I love them. You know, like said, it's a great alternative to the junk food you find in every other convenience store. So, I'm welcome them, but let's just find a way that,
>> you know, if you without the variance if possible. >> Yes. >> You know, again, you have avenues. You have avenues. I think we have some I think we have some guide, you know, guidance that we'll employ. >> Okay. >> Excellent. >> Thank you.
>> And enjoy enjoy Wyoming. Are you shooting or are you fishing or >> um >> I'm not going fishing. >> I'm going hunting. >> Yeah. >> And um I'm going after mule deer. >> Oh, really? Okay.
>> Yeah. Wyoming has some pretty large mu deer. >> I was out there a couple years ago for elk and we did very well. >> Yeah. >> I'll say this is Wyoming has round numbers 550,000 residents or citizens.
>> They have a total of almost 800,000 black Angus cattle. >> So the cattle outnumber the residents. And the guide will tell you quickly, if you shoot one of those cattle, it's only going to cost you $3500.
>> Really? >> Do you get to keep it? >> Yeah, you get to keep it. >> No, it's a Yeah, it's a unique state. And >> but I think we can work with you, >> but you got to work with us. >> I understand that. We This is This is
the way that we >> I'm sure this isn't the first time you've run up to something like this. >> Absolutely. We We understand. So, thank you very much. >> You are requesting the continuence of that. >> Yes, we did. So, I'd make a motion we continue this to the November 18th
meeting. >> Second. >> Okay. And any comments, changes, suggestions, etc. None. All those in favor? >> I. All those opposed? No. We continue to November 18th. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you for your time. Sorry to bring you >> No. No, >> don't be sorry. >> We do this for free. >> Now, what happened? That gentleman didn't come up at all.
>> We didn't call us. >> Yeah, we we didn't get to meet you. You didn't come up at all or anything. >> I thought they were keep report back. I thought they were keeping the big guns back there and not
>> the small gun. >> Okay, gentlemen. Uh, we got some minutes here we have to approve or sign. >> And this is September 17th minutes. >> Mel will be the only one that can't
sign. Then Bob can sign. Oh, we'll be >> Yeah. >> Have you all read them or seen this? No. You can see I haven't. >> Okay. Do I hear a motion to approve the minutes of September 17th?
>> So move. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I >> approve. Next one is August 19th, the minutes and the voting signatures on
this one. Well, will be in the signers. Uh Lori, which is not here, but everybody else is all set. Move we accept the minutes as presented. >> Okay. >> Second. >> Okay. Any comments or questions?
>> No. >> All those in favor? I >> I oppos. No opposition. Uh minutes approved. Uh do we have we have no more items on the agenda for tonight? We're all set. >> Motion to adjourn. >> Do you want to pass these?
>> Second. Get the sign as you can. >> All any comments before we vote on the adjournment? >> No, sir. >> Okay. All in favor? I I >> Any opposition? None. Meeting adjourned.