##VIDEO ID:mjTY4ZYxZ48## the Monday November 18th 20124 regular meeting of the gardener city council will come to order the clerk will please call the rooll council Brooks president councel Craig cor president councel d l pres counc harder pres Council Heath pres Council hegan pres Council M pres Council Munos pres Council tone pres Council tyros pres and pres Pres please rise for the opening prayer and almighty God we thank you for bringing us together this evening INSP us tothy deeds and sound decisions and direct us towards the attainment of good city government pray the to protect all the people of our city Inspire us that we may delate in unity and Harmony amen I pled Ali to the flag of the United States of America to the for it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for [Music] all open meeting recordings any person may make a video or audio recording of an open session of a meeting or may transmit the meeting through any medium subject to reasonable requirements of the chair as to the number placement and operation of equipment used so so is not to interfere with the conduct of the meeting any person intending to make such recording shall notify the chair forth with all documents and Exhibits used or referenced at the meeting must be submitted in duplicate to the chair as they become part of the meeting minutes pursuant to General Law chapter 38 subsection 20 is anyone here recording tonight's meeting okay reading of the minutes of Prior meetings there are no minutes there are no public hearings Communications from the mayor communication item 11431 a communication from the mayor regarding the certification of the FY 2025 tax rate tax levy and tax recapitulation councelor dnal lawitz thank you madam president the mayor has informed us that the tax rate was certified by the state at $436 slightly lower than projected as stated in the uh packet this is the earliest we have ever completed this process um and we are only the 39th municipality out of 351 to um do so so far this year I moved to place this community on file second motion made by councelor General second by councelor m to place the communication on file is there a discussion on the motion councelor general just like to thank all the work of uh the auditor the assessor and the treasurer in the mayor's office and getting this done thank you further discussion all those in favor say I I those oppos say no motion passes orders item 11424 in order appropriating $131,800 from free cash to the city stabilization account report from the finance committee counselor d thank you madam president this order will place 5% of free cash um put into to be placed into our City's stabilization account this has been an annual appropriation for some time and is detailed in the city's administrative Financial policy recommendations uh the appropriation will uh move the account to 3.5 uh roughly 3.5 million uh this is the city's rainy day fund for lack of a turn uh term the state recommends a goal of 5 to 7% of our operating budget um we're still moving towards that goal uh but we're would make as you can see from the chart um included in our packet um we've progressed quite a bit over the past uh several years the finance committee was in favor um and I move the order second motion made by councelor General out seconded by councelor Mack to adopt the order is there discussion on the motion this uh these this order and some of the subsequent orders that are um related to free cash are roll call votes the clerk will please call the rooll council Brooks yes counc cig Cormier yes councel darl LT yes councel harder yes Council Heath yes Council Hegman yes Council M yes Council T yes Council tone yes Council tyros yes and president kazin yes 11 y the motion passes item 11425 an order appropriating $263,600 president this is Again part of the city's U administrative Financial policies um this is 10% of free cash we do this I've doing this for several years uh this will help obviously bolster our road reserving uh fund for next year's Paving projects there's other sources the state um additional funding come from us later as well but this is the start finance committee was in favor and I move to adopt the order second motion made by councelor General seconded by councelor Ma to adopt the order is there a discussion on the motion the clerk will please call the role Council Brooks yes Council Craig Cormier yes Council DARS yes Council harder yes Council Heath yes Council hin yes Council ma yes Council TBO M yes Council tone yes Council tyros yes president yes 11 y the motion passes item 11426 an order appropriating 26,36 $2 from free cash to the city's other post employee benefit oped St ization account report from the finance committee Council General allow thank you madam president the opep stabilization account is there in case the city cease to exist and we' be able to still fund certain retirement liabilities um as this funding is funding this in some at some level is required um in order to help maintain our bond rating um so our ability to borrow um the city puts in 1% of our free cash um in order to comply to some level with this uh the finance committee was in favor and I move to adopt the order second motion made by councel General seconded by councel m to adopt the order is there a discussion on the motion the clerk will please call the rooll council Brooks yes councel Craig Cormier yes Council D lawitz yes councel harder yes Council Heath yes councel hegan yes Council ma yes Council Tio M yes Council T yes Council tyros yes president C yes 11 11 y the motion passes item 11427 an order appropriating $75,000 from cash to landfill closure account report from the finance committee councelor Mac uh this is the city's obligatory payment for the maintenance and monitoring of the former West Street landfill which was closed in 2005 as part of the 30-year plan from the date of closure this is to replenish the account the finance committee was in favor so I make a motion to approve the order second motion made by councelor Mac seconded by councelor General to adopt the order is there a discussion on the motion the clerk will please call the rooll council Brooks yes Council K yes counc yes Council harder yes Council Heath yes Council heglin yes counc yes counc mun yes counc yes counc tyros yes yes 11 y the motion passes item 11428 in order appropriating $100,000 from free cash to the mayor's unclassified Professional Services Grint writing expense account report from the finance committee Council M uh this hund $100,000 is to fund professional grant writing and lobbying service services this is also important to follow through on the required performance reports for the grants the city has already received the mayor informed the committee since entering into these contracts close to $20 million has been awarded to the city in grant funding the finance committee was in favor so I make a motion to remove the order second motion made by councelor Max second by councelor General lawitz to adopt the order is there a discussion on the motion councelor Brooks uh thank you Madame President I would like to repeat a concern I have raised previous meetings when this topic is on the agenda and I would like to clarify just what my concern is at previous meetings I have spoken about orphan grants which are grants that the city has received without the full involvement of the department charged with overseeing the grant project and completing the terms of the grant the example I have used is the safe roots to school Grant which was pursued by an assistant principal at Elm Street School who shortly after the grant award left the gardener public school system the grant is to rebuild Elm Street from cross street to Temple Street not a project that the school department would generally supervise fortunately for the city the Department of Community Development has taken on responsibility for the project what I am not saying is that the city is receiving grant money with no oversight by City departments in my example a city department is overseeing the project and I believe that City departments generally are very careful in their oversight and are successful in the completion of their projects my concern has more to do with generating orphan grants one's not wanted by the department that would have to complete the grant project for example a $500,000 Grant award to buy all new Apple Computers throughout the city and schools sounds great except the city and school computers operate on Windows and not Apple would we really want to change operating systems another example might be a million dooll Grant to buy a paver so that the city can do its own Paving sounds wonderful except does the public works department have the budget and the appetite to hire and train staff to do the paving how many more dump trucks would the city have to buy to haul the black top from the plant to the P would we need to buy a grinder to prepare the old road surface for Paving departments must be on board at the start of the grand writing I have expressed my concerns to the mayor and he assures me that grant writing will be done in line with departmental needs and with departmental cooperation that is all I ask thank you thank you counselor further discussion Council Tes thank you madam president in the past I've supported funding this account due to the immense amount of grants that were awarded uh by the federal government following the pandemic is my understanding that the city has a relationship with the monus regional Planning Commission to Aid Us in doing grant writing work therefore I have a question through the chair to the mayor uh why should we need to continue to fund this account for these Services if we already have a commission that is available to the city to do this work for Mr Mayor thank you madam president tyos as well uh the city statutorily is a member of the mon at Regional Planning Commission uh the regional planning commissions are agencies that are Quasi public agencies set up by state law that allow us uh assistance when needed in terms of different items in terms of regional planning in terms of Community Development projects economic development project grant writing and so on from there when we first look at enter entering into a grant writing contract two years ago I reached out to uh the monitors at Regional Planning Commission uh the executive director emailed back at the time saying that this was not something that fit into their uh available portfolio at the time uh due to the uh staff resources that they had and the uh resour that they had available to commit to the city they didn't have sufficient to meet the need of being the city uh and you uh being available to the city in a noncon grant writing services uh when I was the Town Administrator for the town of Rutland uh that was something that was regularly offered by the central Massachusetts Regional Planning Commission so that's how we ended up with the contract with the uh Central Mass Regional Planning Commission uh even though we're in the statutory catchment area for the mausa regional Planning Commission uh because I knew that they offered that service but that's why we had to pay for that s separate the our membership with the montachusett regional Planning Commission is paid for directly out of our cherry sheet funds that we receed from the Commonwealth uh and that's something that's directly deducted in the state aid that the city receives every year because it's a state statute set catchment area uh that that falls into there so we don't have to pay for the services of your RPC that you are a member of uh but where we are not in the catchment area for the central Massachusetts Regional Planning Commission but the massachusett regional Planning Commission we had to pay them extra for the work that they've done and they've done a tremendous work for us too in helping us with the raise Grant where we were one of only three communities in Massachusetts to receive that funding uh and things of that nature but that just started the discussion and then uh we went even further to see is there's someone who could Lobby for these Grant applications with us for the different agencies particularly where a lot of these grants are federal grants that are more intricate than the state grants that we had been applying for and that quite frankly the rpcs no matter which one we would be are more familiar with uh so that's why we contracted at the time with Keller partners because not only do they have strong Federal experience but they were all lobbyists that were registered with the federal government who basically write your application then Lobby your application to those different federal agencies uh that's not something that a regional Planning Commission would do uh because they tend to work more closely with the state department and while they still do Federal grant applications like the one that cmrpc wrote for us when we were successful with the raise Grant uh I guess long and short to the counselor's question before I go down a rabbit hole of why this is beneficial to the city in terms of grant writing funding and rather than uh the actual question the counselor asked uh we reached out to mrpc and they simply just said it wasn't something that they were interested in so then when they said that they weren't interested in we had to find another way to do it and the only way to do that was paying someone else to do it uh and then through that process we've learned that uh you know yes we were hoping to use them at first and yes they didn't meet what we were looking for at the time but it opened a door for something new for us that was more beneficial to us in the end because we were able to make that change um because they they weren't able to hand so that's uh the reason why we aren't really using mrpc for grant writing services or for these types of uh activities uh is because when we first reached out they just said they didn't have the capacity to do so they have helped us on one grand application since then because they had the capacity to do that application but with the fastpac that sometimes these schedules come up turnover gets released between applications opening and uh the deadline to receive them and stuff like that uh it's proven more beneficial to actually have someone on a contract rather than just relying something like that Madam president just to clarify something the may had stated the while we don't necessarily cut a check to the mrpc it does come out of our cherry sheet state aid so we are indeed paying for it in one way or the other so just want to clarify that point Thank you thank you councelor thank you Mr Mayor further discussion councelor hegan thank you madam president um in hearing our discussion tonight I I sort of arrived at two thoughts when I was looking over and preparing for this first would be um in response to me my colleague you know I think there is something to be said for Department approval or interest but I think ultimately you know we do elect a mayor to bring a vision and then a plan for the city uh and so I think it is nice and I'm glad to hear he wants his departments to be on board I do think our this mayor or any other mayor I think there's something to be said for it being a policy decision of that Administration first and foremost and so as these grants are gone after I think I understand um why maybe there was a lack of that cohesion between department heads and the mayor because ultimately this mayor or any other mayor I do think there's something to be said for for their Direction their vision and their agenda uh and how these things are pursued and just sort of the difference between like in any place the boss and and the employees um additionally though to and and I'm glad councelor tyros asked the question he asked um because I think when looking at this you know we had done $49,000 back in March we're now doing another 100,000 uh and and to somewhat to to councelor Brooks's point you know you look at Community Development we have six staffers there secretaries assistants we have one person who is in charge of cdpg Grants and maybe over $500,000 in salaries but we can't find anyone to track the paperwork or to reorg a better way that maybe that is doable inous and and where we are paying an organization money that has the services to go after grants maybe there are better ways to to better track the paperwork internally that we haven't been able to look at um with $100,000 while there's hopes that some of this money is going to be federally available through 2026 as things change if that money is gone what do we do if we've now entered a $100,000 contract and federal grants are drying up are we left with any recourse would that be part of the process and so I don't know if the mayor or finance committee I didn't get to watch the meeting I apologize but if there's any thoughts on that I would be interested to hear thank you counselor Mr Mayor thank you madam president all of our contracts for services are written with the Clause saying that all the continuation of the contract year after year is subject to approval uh of appropriation excuse me um so what that means there too is say uh first of all while the council voted a couple meetings ago to allow for up to a 5-year contract it's a three-year contract with the option to extend after that initial three-year term to the additional two years of the contract uh if we find out three years down the line that certain Cuts have been made to budgets at either the state or federal level and certain Grant uh you know processes just aren't as abundant or as readily available or something that we find we can do in house better then it's just subject to the appropriation if the appropriation isn't made to fund that contract then the contract automatically becomes void as a matter of state law uh so all uh contracts issued by municipality have to be subject to appropriation by the city council or if it's a town town meeting or whatever different structure they have for US city council uh if the appropriation isn't there to fund that then the contract just ends at that moment in time thank you thank you Mr may councelor also thank you yes thank you thank you Council Mark um just just a couple of items as previous counselor mentioned um about using people within unfortunately found out this year especially with staff change over that not all parts of the um Grant uh requirements were followed through and we shouldn't put ourselves in that position again uh because that jeopardizes the city and getting other Grants awarded and I hope we've learned our lesson but on the other hand I think we've shown that this is money well spent I mean $20 million I mean this allows grants that I mean yes we have competent people here but there are grants that they wouldn't even be able to find or look for within you know that we need with um with with federal grants um I do think we have to watch this very closely because I think things are going to change of what's going to be available to um local municipalities in the state um in the next couple of years um so that if it's if it's not money well spent then then that's up to the mayor then to make that decision um but $20 million is a lot of money and Gardner received a lot of federal funds um with the help of our Congressional leadership team um we've been very fortunate and I um I think again the services paid for themselves thank you madam president thank you counselor further discussion the clerk will please call the RO councelor Brooks yes Council C Cormier yes counc D yes Council harder yes Council Heath yes Council heglin yes Council ma yes Council TBO yes Council tone yes Council tyros yes and president kin yes 11 y the motion passes item 11429 in order appropriating $95,000 from free cash to the information technology equipment expense account report from the finance committee councelor Mac uh Madam president this item is from $95,000 to upgrade and streamline the munus software system used in City Hall for time sheets payroll and personnel file part of this $95,000 is also for the service switches and for cyber security the finance committee was in favor so I make a motion to move the order second motion made by councelor Ma second by counselor DS to adopt the order is there a discussion on the motion the clerk will please call the RO Council Brooks yes Council Craig cor yes Council General lowitz yes Council harder yes Council Heath yes Council heglin yes Council M yes Council tibo MOS yes Council ton yes counc tyros yes president yes 11 y the motion passes item 11 1430 an order appropriating $77,000 from golf retained earnings to golf new vehicles account councelor ma um this is uh $77,000 is to purchase a new truck with the plow attachment for the golf course out of the golf Enterprise uh fund uh the committee was in favor so I make a motion to approve the order second motion made by councelor Max seconded by councelor tyros to adopt the order is there discussion on the motion councel dertz thank you as a member of the golf commission I'm going to abstain from voting on this item thank you counselor further discussion the cler will please call the rooll council Brooks yes Council Craig homeier yes Council harder yes councelor Heath yes councel heglin yes councel ma yes councel TBO mun yes Council tone yes Council tyros yes and president Kaz yes ten the motion passes item 11433 an order appropriating $45,000 from free cash to elections salary I'm sorry election salary and labor councelor generals thank you madam president leading to a motion this item was placed on the calendar in anticipation of a uh Citywide recount request uh the paperwork was for the uh recount was not submitted um to the city clerk uh so the city no longer needs to appropriate said funds I'd like to make a motion to remove the item from the calendar second motion made by councelor General out seconded by councelor Mack to remove the item from the calendar is there a discussion on the motion councelor harder yes Madam president I just want to say that I'm relieved that the city and its taxpayers won't have to shoulder this cost I guess I always assume that to request a recount the results had to be close I didn't know that there were really isn't a limit because honestly the first I had heard of this was when it was added to this agenda and I was surprised but this wasn't a close election I respect Anyone who puts their name on the ballot I think we all know it's not easy I can understand the frustration that comes from campaigning for any office for almost 5 years and not winning however it's on all of us who run for office to be responsible with recounts especially given the cost to the public part of what comes with running for office is being prepared to accept how the people vote it's clear from what I've seen that the desire from the candidate to have this done was certainly there and it seems to be only the deadline passing that is the reason we're not voting on this now thank you thank you counselor further discussion Mr Mayor thank you madam president uh just for clar ification sake uh on Friday morning as to why this was added to the agenda to begin with on Friday morning uh candidate Chester uh reached out to the city clerk's office via email to say that he intended to turn in uh recount petition papers by the 5:00 pm statutory deadline uh that was uh last Friday at 5:00 pm uh in order to accommodate uh that request that was there uh uh Provisions were made to have staff available at the city clerk's office until the 5:00 p.m. deadline that was there as as well as uh placing papers at the police station that remains open all the uh day long even though City all closed at 1:00 on Fridays just to make things uh as accommodating as possible so that it was no instance in which the city was in any way trying to hinder any uh prog uh process uh that was set out for from there um at the same time after the city clerk was notified by the candidate that he was considering filing these petitions and intended to file these petitions by that 5:00 p.m. deadline uh myself the city solicitor uh the assistant city solicitor and the city clerk uh got on a conference call with the state elections division at the secretary of the Commonwealth office to ask what the process was moving forward from that that's where we were informed that because this was uh the type of recount that it was and that it was a w byward recount and not a districtwide recount that would only be set If the percentage that uh the candidate winning the election was less than 05 of a percent so 0.5% uh that's when there would be some type of assistance from the state but because this was awarded by award recount the cost would be 100% born by the municipality uh in which that recount was taking place this $45,000 uh because this is a question that I've received since this got added to the agenda so I just want to make it clear for the public is just Garder uh this is not the other communities in the second Wester District as there was a uh some confusion around that from other people in the public in terms of does this also cover asham Westminster excuse me asham winon and Templeton this is just Gardner those other communities if they were to have a recount would have to pay for it themselves uh and the cost associated with this would be recalling all of our poll workers uh state law defines a recount as having ballots stacked in stacks of 50 and having two poll workers assigned to each stack of 50 one to read the name on the ballot and one to make a tally mark of the name that was on that ballot uh so all of our poll workers even uh from you know even though it only seems like we're doing a recount of everything it's actually a lot more hands- on Deck than it would uh seem so our poll workers rates are set by city ordinance that's where you get the 45 ,000 Mark uh that we have uh in front of us here but like was said earlier in the end uh the 5:00 pm deadline came and went and uh recount petitions were not submitted into the city clerk's office that was staffed until 5:15 that evening so even if there was some delays in getting here um we really made every accommodation possible to try to make it so that someone was here uh the reason why the item had to be added to the agenda uh as an amendment is because state law also says that a recount has to be done within 10 days of when those petitions are received because of the Thanksgiving holiday and the way the calendar fell if the petitions were received on Friday the recount would have had to take place before the next city council meeting took place which means we would have had to spend all of this money when we didn't have the appropriation to do so uh so that's why it got added uh on Friday as soon as we were notified within a half an hour of when that uh email notification from the candidate to the clerk's office was received uh but again it can we don't need it but I just wanted to explain the process as to why this happened the way it did and why why this ended up on the agenda the way it was thank you thank you m m further discussion Council tyros thank you madam president I I'm relieved that the gardener taxpayers won't have to pay this burden I think councelor Harden said it perfectly well uh you know this election was not determined by a handful of votes but by hundreds of votes and I was very disappointed to see some of the commentary in our community about uh you know there being questions around the Integrity of this election founding principle of this country was that we have Fair transparent and free elections and to question the Integrity of the hardworking election officials at the local state and federal level uh is is just disingenuine and I'm really relieved that the taxpayers of gardener will not have to pay this bill thank you thank you counselor fur the discussion this is on the motion to remove the item from the calendar all those in favor say I I those oppos say no motion passes petitions applications Communications Etc item 11432 a ruling from the attorney general relative to an open meeting lock complaint filed by the following a Kimberly Blake b Paul Deo C ernestina Duda D Darlene hrey e David Helman F Mary Marsh G Jan mcferson H Elanor gamar I Lori meager J Deborah Moore Ali K Stephanie Oro L Loren pebody M Judith Ty singer councelor tyros thank you madam president I move to place the rulings on file second motion made by councelor tyros second by councelor General allow to place the item on file the rulings on file is there a discussion on the motion councelor tyros thank you madam president i' just like to take a brief moment to discuss the due process that these costly uh complaints followed on July 15th these 13 complaints were filed with our Council on July 31st we held a special meeting to discuss and respond to the complaints on August 1st the Attorney General's office re received the complaints and the council's response if the 13 complaintants were unsatisfied with our response that no open meeting law violation occurred then any of the 13 complaintants could have requested a review by the Attorney General's office on August 14th the Attorney General's office notified each of the complaintants that if a request wasn't received by September 29th then they would presume the response by the council was sufficient and would con close the file therefore this matter is now considered closed thank you madam president thank thank you counselor forther discussion all those in favor say I I oppos say no motion passes reports of standing committee is finance committee item 11419 a measure authorizing the city to enter into a contract for up to 5 years for Police Department body camera cloud storage report from the finance committee Counselor General Al thank you madam president we've had a number of these type of requests over the past um month or so um of allowing the city to negotiate a contract up to 5 years instead of three on this case for the department and the body camera um cloud storage of the the data off of there the video um in this contract what would be included also would be responding to any uh public record requests related to um the videos that are there um this would still be subject to appropriation by the council uh the finance committee was in favor and I move to authorize the measure second motion made by councelor General out second by councelor MC to authorized measure is there a discussion on the motion the CL uh all those in favor say I I those post say no motion passes item 11420 a measure declaring Surplus for the purpose of disposal of land and buildings at 73 Stewart Street report from the finance committee councelor Jo out thank you madam president this is the property was previously declared Surplus by the city council and was set to be marketed at $177,000 uh before the sale uh the city had to demolish the building due to severe saf concerns um that were brought forth by the um the build Building Commissioner um as the dilapidated structure no longer is on the property the assess value has increased uh the mayor has requested the minimum um price be assigned of 7 $77,400 which is the assess value of the land as is finance committee agreed and I move to authorize the measure declaring the property at 73 Stewart Street Surplus for a minimum amount of $77 $77,400 second motion made by counc second by councelor Mac to adopt the um measure is there a discussion on the motion this requires a roll call vote and a two3 vote the clerk will please call the rooll council Brooks yes Council Craig cor yes counc darwitz yes counc hard yes Council Heath yes Council heglin yes Council ma yes Council TBO MOS yes Council tone yes Council tyros yes and president kazinski yes 11 y the motion passes Safety Committee item 11415 an ordinance to amend the code of the city of Gardner chapter 477 thereof entitled mobile homes and trailers councelor Craig Cormier move to send the item to Second and final printing second motion made by councelor Cormier second by councelor Harden to send the item to Second and final printing is there discussion on the motion all those in favor say I I pleas go say no motion passes item 11416 an ordinance to amend the code of the city of G chapter 600 thereof entitled vehicles and traffic to add a new section 21 to be entitled parking meter fee waved councelor Cormier thank you madam president I move to send the item to Second and final printing second motion made by councelor Cormier seconded by councelor Heath to send the item to Second and final printing is there a discussion on the motion all those in favor say I I oppos say no motion passes item 11 1422 an ordinance to amend the chapter 600 of the code of the city of Garder thereof entitled vehicles and traffic report from the Public Safety Committee councelor cor thank you madam president the saf comme had a chance to meet on this item last week as the mayor alluded to earlier in our informal meeting uh this is to clean up some of the existing ordinance uh before the snow hits the city um one of the items is that the snow ban the language regarding the snowband and um the public parking lots is not uh in conjunction with our existing um on call snowband um so this would change it to be 2 hours the 2 hours after the snowband is cleared U the public parking lots would have to be emptied to be plowed versus what it says now which is 7: to 9:00 a.m. which isn't necessarily when the snowband would be ended uh it also sets all of the parking meters to 2 hours and it raises the price for a half hour of parking from 25 cents to 50 cents which would bring it in line with bring us in line with some of the other communities around us at this point um and would help uh pay for maintenance of the meters in the surrounding areas um traffic committee the Safety Committee was in favor and voted unanimously to recommend and I therefore move to send the item to first printing second motion made by councelor cor seconded by councelor Heath to send the item to first printing is there a discussion on the motion all those in favor say I I please post say no the motion passes service committee item 11417 a petition by National Grid City Hall AV to install underground facilities install one pad mounted Transformer and approximately 20 ft of conduit in the parking lot off Main Street and Pleasant Street Gardener Mass report from the service committee yes Madam president the public service committee has not had the opportunity to meet on this item yet hope plan on scheduling that um hopefully later this week I request more time if there's no objection the committee will be GR more time the committee will be granted more time appointments item 11414 a measure confirming the mayor's appointment of Paul gay to the position of historical commission member for a term expiring October 16th 2027 report from the appointments committee councelor tyros thank you madam president leading to a motion the committee was able to meet with the appointee and the mayor earlier this evening Mr Gay requested be involved uh in the hisor commission his training is in architectural and graphic design uh so he bring unique perspective to the hisor commission and he really appreciates the character of our City so he's looking forward to helping preserve it the committee um asked questions they were answered satisfactory uh the committee voted unanimously to recommend therefore I move to confirm the mayor's appointment second motion made by councelor tyus seconded by councelor Heath to confirm the mayor's appointment is there discussion on the motion all those in favor say I I those oppos say no motion passes Committee of the whole item 112 89 an ordinance to amend the code of the city of Gardner part one thereof entitled administrative legislation councelor generals thank you madam president uh we met on this at an informal meeting earlier tonight there was some uh good discussion some recommendations on further updates to the um to the uh ordinance to the legislation um so we request more time for those updates to be completed and for another review by the council if there's no objection the committee will be red more time the committee will be granted more time item 11423 a proposal relative to the rules of the city council councelor D thank you madam president again part of that informal meeting was this item had presentation by the council president who put forth these um these changes um for everyone to get a chance to digest uh the information um we U agreed that we should have more time on it and so I request more time if there's no objection the committe will be granted more time we'll be granted more time there is no unfinished business in matters for reconsideration there's no new Business Council comments and remarks are there any Council comments and remarks councelor just thank you madam president I just like to take this opportunity to you know I know it's a little early but I wish everybody a very Happy Thanksgiving um as we enter into the holiday season and just be you know hope healthy health and safety to all so thank you thank you further Council comments and remarks I will entertain a motion to adour after the closing prayer motion made by councelor Sony seconded by councelor Hardin to adour after closing prayer all those in favor say I I say no motion passes Almighty my father over all as we we thank the for the opportunity of liation and action of this meeting bless Lord all here and the people representes we are and do thend to our amen meeting stands adjourned thank you everyone --------- ##VIDEO ID:nQJXfeZWaNE## Council Monday November 18th 2024 ask please call Brook pres pres Council General lawitz pres Council harder pres Council Heath pres Council H presc Pres tyos pres for the public watching this evening we are meeting informally tonight regarding agenda item 11 1289 an ordinance to amend the code of the city of Gardner part one thereof entitled administrative legislation and item 11423 a proposal relative to the rules of the city council we will begin with item 11 1289 this item was posted publicly in the city council regular meeting packet for our Monday May 20th 2024 meeting where the city council voted to refer the item to the finance committee for further study and report a lengthy document that has been revised several times since the time it went to study in the finance committee is included in our Council packet the finance committee recently reported on the item and the city council voted to meet as a committee of the whole on it which is our purpose for meeting this evening at this time I would like to give the finance committee um an opportunity to speak on the item as it was previously with the committee councel General La thank you madam president um as you stated this has been with the council for some time um I think version eight I I thought it was seven but we're on version eight um at this point there's been a lot of hard work by a lot of groups um on this the heads of um City departments board commissions have all had their input um at the beginning um other counselors have done their due diligence the mayor and his office have put a lot of time into this um the majority um of the the work was the update in the organization of the ordinance um things were put in over time one-offs over time um and their setup was um not consistent which made it more difficult to read um there were extra parts in there that were no longer needed about when Bo or commissions were initially created those type of things were removed I think the way it's been organized is much um much more efficient much easier to read um and the pieces that were no longer applicable were taken out there have been some changes as well and some updates um glad we're having this inform formal meeting so the rest of the council has the chance to voice any questions concerns they may have with um any of the reorganization or subst of changes that have been done to the ordinance thank you thank you counselor um I would also just add you know these ordinance are done and Echo everything that councel General La said um as we were in our finance committee discussions we did talk about how these ordinances are done over a really long amount of time and we're just like putting them all in one document and doing it all at once so the fact that it's been in front of us since May should not be a surprise to anybody as we're doing our our due diligence um but again I Echo everything that councel General said and uh at this time I would like to next give the mayor the opportunity to speak as the finance committee did correspond with him regularly in our meetings on this item um and he then submitted the requested changes we went back over the document and um I'd like to give him an opportunity to speak from the work that was done in his office Mr Mayor thank you very much Madam president uh as is stated in the letters included in the packet uh this is something that I spoke about in my inaugural address on January 4th of this year that we would begin looking into uh when uh the budget memorandum was issued to the department heads on November 28th of 2023 uh with the request for the budget documents to be reviewed I also ask each department head to review the ordinances uh in the city's codebook that related to their departments at the same time all of the chairs of our boards and commissions in the city when they received their version of the budget memo asking for their fy2 budget uh documents uh also uh reviewed also to review and make recommendations on the ordinances that relate to to their boards and commissions that's what started this whole process that's here so any changes that you see to the ordinances that are included in this book in front of you either in the uh ordinance document or in the redline versions themselves actually were initiated by the chairs of the boards and commissions and the Departments themselves included in the overall theme rather than getting into the nitty-gritty of the 45 page document in and of itself is that there were a lot of ordinances that no longer related to City activities mainly in the Personnel ordinances in the fact that many of the ordinances referenced uh you know certain Provisions for personnel policies uh for positions that when the uh the ordinance was put in place the positions were non-union and then when those positions voted to unionize it was no longer the ordinances that controlled the policies related to those conditions it was the collective bargaining agreements that related to those in terms of time off holidays uh vacation benefits personal time all of those relating to the fire Department the police department the DPW the dispatch Department Animal Control Officers inspectors in the building department and health department and I believe those are I I believe I got all of our unions uh but the DPW has two unions and the fire department and the police department has two unions as well and then our city hall clerical staff that's the union I was forgetting um so a lot of the ordinances that were in the book particularly with our Personnel ordinances still referenced benefits to those positions but we were not legally able to follow what the ordinance said because we had to follow what the collective bargaining agreement said the Union contract uh so that cleans up those positions that are unionized now and not followed under city ordinances additionally there were uh some discussions that were had relating to the uh certain stiens certain positions that are no longer in existence but we're still in the ordinance code uh the superintendent of the fire alarm system used to monitor the pull box system that we had on the telephone holes throughout the city uh that position is no longer in existence and those pull boxes are no longer there um there used to be a dynamite stien if any City employee was required to use dynamite in the course of their employment with the city um we hire that out now and our insurance would not have us have our own city employees using Dynamite on any city project right now um and there's other things that were repetitive in terms of if you looked at the way the city code is written right now and you go to the city's code book either online or in print you'll see that the numbers of the chapters are not chronological uh in terms of you'll go from 1 to 37 to 86 to 32 and a bunch of numbers in between uh the reason why that was done in uh the codification of the ordinance code in the mid 2000s was so that everything could be alphabetical but when you run into a system where everything's alphabetical it's some had Department as the head of the alphabetical so they were under D and some did building department so that put the building department under b instead of under D like other places that had Department of Community Development under D and so there's certain things like that that it just was confusing to follow in terms of departments that way but it also mixed our departments commissions uh other aspects like that so this is really just cleaning things up to make things easier to follow and it also puts everything in a solidified place too each board and commission had a different process that it followed in terms of some said appointed by the mayor confirmed by the council some said nothing some said appointed by the mayor for a term of 3 years some said nothing some said two years some said seven a lot of that relates to state law too so we undertook a review of all the state laws that related to these positions uh be it uh planning board members have to be appointed for a term of 3 years but members of the gr have to be appointed for a term of 5 years so all of that too was set out by State Statute so there was a full legal in-depth review of uh relating to these positions as well but it basically says uh in one section now up at the top rather than in each individual Department unless otherwise stated by City Charter or state law or any other provisions of the code uh that's included here uh positions are to be a three-year appointment uh put up by the mayor confirmed by the city council because state law would have differences for certain positions or because the city Charter itself may have differences for certain Provisions like the city clerk the treasurer the auditor uh those positions that are elected by the council by the charter itself that's why it also has that line unless otherwise stated by the charter or the state law that that way we just have a uniform system across the board with everyone there are some other sections particularly at the beginning um that reference the seal uh there was actually a holiday ordinance in which uh some students from em Street School back in the 19 uh 80s I believe uh sent a petition forward that the council adopted renaming Patriots Day Colonel Thomas Gardner day in the city of Garder different things like that that are just we're also thrown in with the structure of our departments uh so just putting everything in similar categories to where they were uh there was a lot of work that went into this uh like uh was said earlier this is version 8 the changes that came uh really from City councilors who viewed uh the ordinances once it was submitted to the finance committee in May uh after we spent from December through May drafting the initial draft of it with our department heads and the chairs of our commissions uh other updates came as department heads changed and we got new department heads who said you know I took a look at this I think this could be tweaked here uh and the majority of the changes in the Personnel ordinance came from a study that was done uh through both the mass Municipal Association and my office of comparing the time off benefits and the other benefits to our employees that Gardener offered compared to other cities around the Commonwealth but also to private sector companies in our area too um as we're trying to make our positions more competitive and maintain our Workforce and get people here to stay longer and draw in uh new individuals to the city's employment so that we can maintain a marketable uh employment base here in the city an employment pool uh really seeing that you know if someone comes in from another either another municipality with experience in that position or from the private sector with a commensurate experience in another position do we really want them you know and they're getting 3 weeks vacation somewhere else but they'd get one week vacation or two weeks vacation when they start here it makes it so that we lose applicants sometimes so we lose good people that we've offered positions to because they see that they'd be taking a hit not just in Pay but in another place uh when they're trying to come here so that was really the impetus behind all of that this is the first stage in that ordinance review that I talked about on January 4th in the inaugural address that I gave at our inauguration um but this was really the biggest one that was there because it's the not only the structure of our departments but it's also the biggest section of the city code uh so I'm happy to answer any questions that come up during the meeting and I really want to thank our department heads our boards and commissions uh who met on this and then the council is also for your collaboration over the course of the eight different versions of this uh and however many there are to come at the pleasure of the council after that we're happy to continue to work with you all thank you thank you Mr Mayor uh I just have a question uh you would mentioned this is the first phase I know I I asked you about it if you want to mention the other phases that we should expect yeah there'll be a uh traffic ordinance that comes before the council right now uh right now we have a vehicles and traffic traffic Vehicles abandoned vehicles wrecked vehicles vehicles in the secondhand parking and parking meters as all separate sections of the city code too uh several of which contradict each other there are some items on the council's agenda that address those contradictions and that I think there's three different places right now in the existing code that say parking meters are 2 hours and then separate three different sections of the code that say parking meters are 3 hours uh the parking ban ordinance contradicts itself in terms of on Street versus parking lots because they refer to each other but then don't correct that reference to each other um so there's likely going to be a traffic ordinance besides those that are before the council right now that are time sensitive because the snow is coming soon um we don't know when soon is but we're trying TR to make sure we're at least prepared for whenever that soon shall become so that's why those were separately put up but there'll be a traffic ordinance that'll be come uh coming before everyone uh the two chiefs are reviewing the uh alarms uh alarms alarm systems and uh violations section of the city code so that will likely be a second uh grouping that'll come before and then just a general ordinance just cleaning up if there's certain aspects that can come together so for instance um water storm water Wastewater and uh different other ones that relate to all the water and sewer Enterprise systems uh whether certain of those can be contained we want to keep certain amounts separate this isn't trying to condense everything into one but seeing where it makes sense to put things together if they're related to each other that way you're not looking in sections 1 6 8 12 52 and 167 to get one answer and it's just all there together in one so you can tell someone you know this is where you need to look and they'll be able to find it uh so those are the other sections so we'll have the administ ministrative side will likely have a traffic uh chapter uh a general ordinance review to see something like this if things can come into separate chapters where there's less substantive change but more just bringing things together uh and then where uh City's the city's working on a Grant application right now to see if we can review our zoning ordinances that came from a vote taken by the council last year uh to make sure that our ordinance no excuse me our zoning map was as correct as possible after the discrepancies that we had last year but also to see uh if we are are competitive in our zoning ordinances that we have in terms of making sure that we're business friendly if we say Gard is open for business are we actually open for business are we willing to work with people with housing developers and everything like that and there's not saying we have to get rid of every restriction because there is stuff we still need to regulate but how many of our regulations one contradict each other because that does exist several places but two don't have their intended outcome or three and just blocking progress from happening and because was put in a different time uh so that's something that we're working on a consultant right now and both in obtaining a grant for and inv writing that eventual zoning one that'll probably not come until Springtime uh but the other two should be in December January time thank you Mr Mayor thank you other questions comments discussion from the council how are we going how are we going through this are we going like page by Page through this or we nope if you have questions CAU we're not going to go Page by Page through this C well I have I have questions I'm just asking how no it's just if you want to start a discussion we'll go on whatever the matter that the counselor has and you want to begin floor is yours I can if you want me to and I promise I won't object to anything here uh okay my my understanding is that this is the basis for this is that we have a certain code and we're just rearranging it so it's more logical and streamlined so that's that's kind of how I am looking at this um on there was one I think there's a typo in here which I'll to start with um we're talking about temporary appointments uh it says to serve for a period not longer than 90 days and I believe that should be 60 days because I think the statute is 60 days yeah the statute is 60 days yes that is that should be 60 days so what's that can you just like which section article okay chapter 3 uh section four temporary appointments it's on the same page it says chapter 13 aging pouncil on so are you in this document uh no I'm sorry are you in the redline I'm working on is this version seven this is version seven but this is like the new this is this is the old version red lines and this version is the version okay I'm working I was working on the red line updated one okay um Madame President that's section 29 of the ordinance document itself okay so if you're using this version It's section 20 it's section 29 um well the sixth page Madam president if I could just clarify too if for ease of uh that if section is in all capital letters that's the section of the actual ordinance change document if sections has a capital S but the rest are lowercase that's what the new chapter would look like uh so if you're referencing a section of the actual ordinance Chang do you want to look at the all capital numbers uh because that's the actual ordinance document that's changed okay so I'm sorry councelor it was under okay so yeah so which which page which are we looking at this one now yes yes okay and what are we looking for um it's I think it's the sixth page that version section three four temporary appointment temporary appointments section four temporary appointments what you say page six maybe we should say if you have does everyone have this version with them like this is the one that was printed and given to us right or it should be or if you had it printed but it should be on um it's the same thing that was in our packet okay so I got something section 30 is on the bottom is what the very bottom says section 30 top half of the page page 11 okay here we go yeah page 11 of the so page 11 of the document that was in the packet yep okay which is version eight correct does that no 90 days yeah it should be 60 days should it okay so that would be amended to 60 days yeah I believe the statute the statute is 60 days okay yeah chapter 41 section 61a is 60 days that's of the general law thank you okay so that would be okay okay um where it talks about um so prior to that section one when it's talking about compensation yes salaries and compensation of any City employee who receives compensation any other employees of any departments shall be established by ordinance designated do we should we be saying accept School Employees employees covered by collective bargaining agreements so section 30 section one compensation is what we're looking at it's the page before the item we were just looking at it's page 10 because as I understand it that that th employees covered by collective bargaining agreements aren't aren't covered by the ordinance for compensation okay School Employees are not covered even though they are technically city employees okay so I think the way we should do this is submit the these changes and and you've done your homework counselor I appreciate that but just to double check you know that we have everything place we'll get an updated document we can consider it again at another meeting and we don't have to agree on that that's just my thought right now okay and then I had two other two other things that are a little more General one is that I noticed on many of boards and commissions they used to have a set number on the border commission and it's been adjusted to say up to in a different number I'm a little uncomfortable with that because I I kind of feel like it should be a set number rather than an up to number but um just you're speaking gener I'm sorry excuse me it's very generally okay I mean I know on say the zoning board we just changed it from three to five and we didn't say up to five we said five and so on some of the other boards of commissions it's it's been changed from a set number to an up to number um and I I can find an example if you want I I know you have the airport commission historical commission course thef commission right the golf commission I think is currently five and they went up to seven right there are those those changes that give a little more leeway um that are there as well yeah and and you know a part of me says it should be a set number because it's um you fill the commission and that's it I guess my concern is is with the mayor starting to play games with and I'm not and I'm not accusing this mayor of anything I'm just saying down the road somebody's saying oh well now now I have an opportunity to stack a border commission by putting two more members on I mean I would say if a council CH no worries I my thoughts on this councelor Brooks is um I I would be happy to entertain maybe a law Department review of that question because at the time when we did increase the planning board membership uh I had the question of is it proper to have the up to language that way if you do not have a full board uh they can still act within their powers without being you know add a specific amount just due to the situation we're in City Garden right now we have a lot of boards and commissions that aren't uh full we actually have report on some vacancies uh just earlier tonight that we have to fill on our cultural commission um so I think that might be an opportunity for a quick answer from the law department on you know what's the recommended language because I I don't think there's I think it's it's good I actually looked forward to the standardization of the um appointment terms uh beyond the state statute changed ones that are longer or shorter because in the appointments committee we've had questions of appointments in length um in various places so um I'd look forward to a lot of Department comment on that just have the right terminology yeah okay yeah because the three-year if I may the the three-year term to me is standard and I notice in some places it it has also clarified to say that you if you're filling a term completing a term you complete the term you don't get a a new three-year term because I know that's how you lose the Staggering on a border commission is when you when you begin to have people who don't who aren't appointed to complete the term they're completed for a three-year term so yeah that's all right um any further and from the dis discuss do you have something I just had one other thing well I just did anyone have anything further on that the further discussion Mr Man yeah I'll just uh throw out Madam president it's a all valid points just to make just to throw it out there that uh the at least X number at most y number uh that's throughout the code it just mimics a lot of the times the uh the state statutes that say shall have no less than but shall have no more than um that's just where that came from just to show where that um it's not like we were just looking to add members that just what it mimics the what the state law description of that commission is um and yeah the uh excellent also point on the filling of a vacancies for the remainder of the term uh after the 50 plus appointments that we had to go through this year because of the number of laps appointments that we had that was the biggest concern that we had was we lost staggering on the term which was uh which was intended in not only state statute but in our ordinance book too so that's why that was put in to try to correct that thank you thank you and I mean I would just say too like in terms of numbers that you can go up to and you comment on kind of like stacking a border commission or something um you know my thought on that too is we have a hard enough time sometimes like mostly in towns filling boards and commissions and things so if you give a certain number sometimes it's like are you filling it just to fill it or do you have people on it that are qualified to be on it so there's kind of like the other side of that as well too um anything else any other discussion on that item councel okay and and the last thing I I have is noted and the mayor made a comment about it is the increase in what I would call Benefit time adding an extra week of vacation adding sick uh sick a week of five more days of sick time those kinds of things which which is a change in what we've been doing before and and while there's not an outof pocket cost because it's it's not the same as increasing somebody's salary there is a cost because you're giving uh people additional benefits that they can carry over and cash out when they retire or time out of the building where somebody else has to come in and cover for them and so I think we need to be aware of of what we're doing because it's from my standpoint is kind of a rich uh benefit to to do that I understand the mayor's uh point that that if you're bringing people in mid-career um starting somebody off with two weeks vacation as a new employee is can be rough uh when I went to Fitchburg uh the standard was two but at the mayor's discretion he could give three so given the fact that I've been working for the city of garden for 16 years they I got a third week of vacation at the start that's that's one kind of way around it for that particular kind of situation um but it's just it's just getting that and then and then a little picky thing and I'm not sure it it goes is when um a half a day is considered four hours U most people most non-union employees are not working a 40h hour week they're working a 37 hour week so to say half a day is four hours is giving them a little bit extra and I don't know I just that's that's the auditor accountant in me that is saying wait a minute that's but whatever and with that I'll try and be quiet thank you we're here to talk we're here to talk councelor uh councelor Tyrus in the spirit of debate I I councelor Brooks I agree and I think uh you know coming from an environment I think the modern Workforce has a new expectation of three weeks of vacation to start um I I worry if the the benefit of the time saved outweighs the the risk of losing potential applicants and having uh offices empty due to vacancies uh fulfilling them so I fully support moving this up to three weeks and I think uh you know it it's it's much needed uh in this code so just my perspective on on the matter you counselor for the discussion counc I agree with councelor chos I get the concern from councelor Brooks um having um this additional benefit but the pay the actual salary isn't always commenced to the abilities that are required to do the job in order to um draw people um the benefits is kind of the the key here um for public employment um and I think this is a a welcome change for someone who especially as was discuss mid career considering a switch um to 7ly go down to just just two weeks um is a big a big change where many of them may be getting up to four already at that point or five um and then to switch to two I think is too too much for someone with a lot of experience thank you thank you further discussion I would also say um that you'll have people get hired certain positions uh and I don't know if you can generally speak from a Personnel point if you have this information Mr Mayor but they get hired and they'll try to negotiate another week and then you go through a whole process with that as well anyways like that that will be a normal standard probably at some point anyway so you know I think I I agree with the counselors I certainly understand your concern as well but I think it's um the biggest small step that we can take kind of in the direction that we're probably going to see the push back on anyways and um you know losing good applicants and um trying to and also at the same time trying to minimize the turnover in positions and keep hiring and um and retain employees being a goal I just I think in this case we can we can go to three weeks and we can be safe but I wouldn't go beyond that uh mayor Nicholson thank you madam president um just to respond to that comment too um we currently don't have the ability to negotiate with an employee who gets hired here uh because of our benefit time is listed in the ordinance um that's been a mistake that's come in the past where Department had has told someone oh maybe I can go try and go to bat for you and see if we can negotiate an extra week um and then when they're told it would require an ordinance change uh in under the previous administration there was one time where a department had actually submitted an ordinance change saying that this employee shall receive an extra week while everyone else that obviously failed real quick um because a lot of the employees were like well why one and not everyone that's there um under the statutes of the Commonwealth uh if all time off benefits were taken out of the city ordinance book then we'd have the ability to negotiate through a Personnel handbook and negotiate individually with our employees however that hasn't traditionally been done because this is the council's check on the executive branch on what we have with our employees in our hiring processes um so that's why it was set up the way just for the historical background on that um but we also just to throw out there too in the ordinances and in the proposed ordinance cap the amount that an employee can carry over from year year so if we do have an instance where an employee leaves uh they are capped at how much they can get paid up so they can't Bank too much time out so we set that cap at how much we would be paying them out uh we also have pration pration language in the ordinances as well that if we say someone gets 3 weeks of vacation a year but they leave in January then they're not getting paid for 3 weeks they're getting paid for uh an amount of time commensurate to where they are in the year based on a quarterly basis uh so that language is in there too for protect uh to protect the city financially that way uh it's a very valid concern and I fully understand where uh Council Brooks is coming from on that one I just want to provide that clarification on the least process-wise for the city too thank you question I say if I may I I think it's important to keep it in the ordinance and and to have some standards um could there be a little flexibility in the ordance you could put it in but as soon as you provide flexibility than everybody else is saying what about me and so that's why here it is and um I know there was a former mayor who called department heads in once and said if you're not happy there's a line at the unemployment office and I can replace you tomorrow so I don't I think that was a little harsh language but I think that um you know it we're not here to to make everybody 100% happy all the time if if they're unhappy with uh what their situation ation is there's no harm in looking and I'm not saying that that's what you do but I'm just saying that's I left and it was it was partly what was going on and partly I was ready I was ready to move on so thank you thank you C tyos thank you madam president I'm glad we have this informal meeting because it is creating some questions and one of them I just have from this discussion is would uh current employees who have two weeks would it be retroactive uh sorry to the mayor would this change make it retroactive to 3 weeks for those employees currently or I believe the effective section in the back says effective January 1st 20125 uh so that would be when those changes yeah yeah if you look on the last page section 91 the ordinance will take a face effect upon uh the stated dates listed in in section on January 1 2025 following pastures and publication as required by law so it would be in the next uh the next calendar year because we give our benefit time on a calendar year basis that those changes would go into effect fact thank you further questions comments Council um yeah so if I may I just want to say like coming from where I work um you know I started out 20 years ago started off with two weeks off I thought I was you know thought it was great 20 years later or 19 years later I've G two weeks off you know and this exact conversation that we're having right here exact conversation I'm having with my current job feeling like I need more time off 19 years I gained two weeks off so I think it's um in a world where we are trying to find a home life balance mental health awareness even more than it was 20 years ago um I think this is just another great reason for you know Gardener for people that want to work here so I I'm you know I'm actually happy that you brought that up thank you thank you further discussion does anyone have um anything [Music] further okay I just would like to uh point out that relative to the next item uh which is the proposed changes of the council rules um within this current uh SE uh version eight of the of the document uh if you go to section 31 article one section one regular meetings and section two special meetings so I think it's page it's at the it's at the beginning under section 31 let me see so it's going to be page 12 uh so right after where we were so it's section 31 article one section one regular meetings C under there and and then if section two special meetings B those two are actually removed in the proposed changes we haven't talked about the proposed changes voted done anything yet I'm just saying if we did as proposed changes are right now if we voted to accept them these two things would have to be removed because it would be inconsistent between two different um documents I mean they wouldn't have to be but to be consistent which is the point of this whole review um it would be so I put that on the back for now I just wanted to bring that to people's attention um that that is between the council rules and this document um that would be a change if we decided to adopt the proposed changes um are there any further questions comments anything actually Madam president on that if I may yep um if this stayed for instance though if those two items the section one and two special meetings regular meetings did stay is there and I know it says requirements of the general laws is there any issue with the new um not really new but our um know open meeting laws that exist in the Commonwealth any issue with 2third of the members admitting any matter for consideration at any meeting I don't know if that came up in discussions or reviews so that was so is that what this is in my that is why they were going to be removed or that was that particular one would um be removed is because um see in I think they're rules 15 and 16 um they would be removed because my reasoning is going to be as you'll see soon is because there could be in question of the open meeting law it's a fine line it's a gray area we can just remove them so that is that would be the reasoning behind it um yes thank you that's good mayor thank you madam president um first off to that comment indifference to the separation of powers I didn't touch the language in any of the city council ordinances um but is a concern that's not new um but that would have anyway uh but the uh because I neglected to come back after I acknowledge that yes that 90 days should be 60 days because of the statute um Council of Brooks is correct on the compensation side under uh the general laws of the Commonwealth at least Chapter 70 the uh compensation of members of the school department are set by the school committee in their annual budget vote that gets eventually the bottom line to the council and the uh different employment laws of the Commonwealth do say that uh Union employees are paid by their collective bargaining contract not out of the ordinances too um we have a situation right now or at least until we did when we passed the revision to the Personnel ordinance where uh the inspectors in the building department have unionized in the last year and a half uh their contract was just settled but until their contract was settled they were in the ordinances now the contract has a different rate than what the ordinance is they have to be paid at the contract rate not the ordinance rate uh so that's uh also in different state laws there too so that is correct that uh compensation by ordinance would be for just uh those employees that are not members of the school department nor covered by a collective paring agreement thank you thank you are there any further questions comments discussion on this item okay uh so I think I would say how to kind of proceed forward is so we had some proposed changes from counselor um Brooks and we you know moving forward we can take more time on this we don't need vote on this this evening uh you know this version 8 the versions before this may have been before the finance committee but starting with version seven and now version 8 it's the first time it's before the full Council as a whole um and as we said it's an involved document I think we had a good discussion this evening in my opinion so I would uh like to take a straw vote on this item to kind of see where we all stand with how we're going to move forward with the proposed uh you know different changes and and what we would want to do um at this point so what we would do is I'll take a straw vote a yes vote is in favor um of of voting on it this evening and a no vote is that you're opposed to voting on it um and then you can just say more time if you just want to say more time opposed the no vote and more time are two separate things because no is just meaning like no I wouldn't I wouldn't make any changes I wouldn't do anything tonight I guess that's a better way for me to explain it a yes is yes it's fine um and more time is just we need more time because obviously we had some suggested changes if we voted on it this evening you could vote on it as amended as we know because there were some suggested changes on it but if you want some more time just kind of absorb what we talked about and take another look at the document we can do that as well does anyone have any questions about that counc I have a question more of a comment I think with the number of changes um I think taking more time is at least in my opinion U going to be a good option um we've taken our time already and I think we should continue to take take our time and do it right thank you thank you my personal opinion is we there is no real rush to this item we do I mean before we had the January 1st 2025 date in there um actually Mr Mayor if we did go after Beyond J that can be amended also that would would be amended part of the ordinance document just like any of the languages sure thank you okay so we have time we've had a lot of time we have more time uh on this item as well and so in my opinion what every everybody's most comfortable with this is something we're doing now and it's a big undertaking we want to do it right any other comments on that Council Heath uh yes so to be clear more time would be you know basically the next time this is in front of us the amended versions would be in front of us to see visually well I think we would I think we could have um another discussion as to how we wanted to proceed you know forward with the different changes um I would you know maybe suggested counselor Brooks submit those changes to the mayor we can have that Version Y uh and we can have two different versions and when we vote we can vote on which version that we want to pass we can do that as well is is that where you would you want me to send it to the mayor unless anybody objects to me that's the most organized way to do it um okay with all of your changes and the other thing too is we just have to be clear on which document we're voting on and at that time you can like for example we could say um we want to vote to pass version six or no we up to be version 10 or whatever at that point uh with striking BL you know you could take out some of the changes or you could you could still do that we just want to I to me I just want to keep this as less as as most organized as possible so we all understand what we're we're voting on does anyone else have any suggestions Council General those changes obviously would include your changes you recommended at the end as well yeah so any changes discussed this evening so my changes that I had mentioned would go to the mayor um counc Brookes would go to the mayor we'd get that changed version of it and from there we when we vote we would say and we'd have this version and that version in front of us um so version eight and version nine I'm going to call it and then um like in our next Council packet and then from there when someone decides to act on the item they're going to specify which version that they're acting on and if there are any further amendments they can make that and we can discuss that that's I think the clearest way that I can make to do it unless anyone has any objections Mr Mayor thank you madam president I'm happy to absolutely do that uh just the one thing I would ask for clarification on that because most of the amendments were just clear change this to this or you know remove this section or something like that is the uh membership of the board of the commission exception of the up to language uh that we put in to just mimic what the state law said if there was any direction that um versus solid number versus the up tooling which I I mean we can decide that now we are having the informal meeting so is there any uh does I mean does anybody object to the two sections that I was wanted to take out 15 and 16 just because and does everybody understand I'm glad to discuss it more I will in a little bit as well but those are to me they it's just the open meeting law piece of it um that was my reason for taking them off of the rules in the next item does anyone have any discussion on that and then councel Brooks I think the only item that we really had more discussion on besides the vacation piece of it was the up to what's do you have any last piece on that or my you know my preference is to make it a fixed number then we all know what we're dealing with it in terms of I'm going to pick on the golf Commission because I know it's five and it was up 27 and I think you know either it's five or it's seven and we fill it and that's but the up two means you could have three so you know is that is that how we want to do we want to operate in an up two environment or would we rather say this is the golf commission is five in the golf commission one just the for clarity is 527 for that particular one um some of them have a lot if I remember correctly there ranges so there is a bottom there could be a bottom too there's a was not three was an option for that pres if I may u would it be possible just uh request an opinion of the solicitor on this item just to we don't want to go against if the state uh state law uses that language I think the purpose of this is consistency and Clarity and I think um we just want to be consistent and clear so I mean my sense is that this the statute says up to seven but the individual towns can say five or three or seven or and I'm picking odd numbers because you normally wouldn't do an even number well we can request request opinion of the Law Department um the clerk can put that in for us and then when we get that opinion back we can discuss that in a further meeting like a motion can be made at a further meeting on an item and we can do it during discussion and then amend it further you know or we get the opinion um and um it can be made within the motion you know it just it just depends like you know this version with the with the change of XYZ after we have a discussion we can do that too um so we'll do we'll do that if there's no objection we'll get a Pion from the law department on there okay and then the other item with the vacation piece of it does anyone have a preference on that did you have anything further you wanted to share about that counselor we going to leave it as is or did people feel strongly about changing it so I I would leave it if it were me I would leave it as it is in version eight as is version not as is currently correct as is version eight of the document we discussing correct which is adding additional the council brought up the reason to go back and keep it we're talking about leaving it as is anyone have any we could take a St vote on that we don't have to take a straw vote at all okay so I think so we'll leave the document as is and then again further down the road if anyone wants to entertain an amendment when we vote we can do that in that piece is that clear okay very good thank you everyone this is a we want to keep this as clear as possible it is quite the document so I really appreciate uh all the suggestions and discussions anything further on this item Mr Mayor is that kind of clear be um because we would be submitting it to your office to make the requested changes um but that so this will I think for the purposes of the next meeting I think it's pretty clear that unless any if anyone has any opinion on this we will keep more time on 11289 when we get to the council meeting if anyone have any thoughts otherwise or differently on that okay uh so we won't do the draw but we'll keep we'll stve more time for this item we'll get an opinion from the Law Department that will'll get to the council uh likely uh with our um next packet uh and then in the next meeting and we can uh discuss it further see what we want to do with the item okay there's nothing further we'll move on to next one thank you Mr [Applause] Mayor we will move to item 11423 a proposal relative to the rules of the city council this uh item was posted publicly in the city council regular meeting packet on November 4th 2024 and the council voted to me as a committee of the whole on it since I submitted this item I will present the proposal to the city council now and then we will have our discussion but please feel free to ask questions uh throughout the presentation as well you will see that you have an updated version in front of you um from what was in our packet the only changes are just make sure is correct uh so the updated version on your desks now it has been submitted to the clerk as well um includes two changes one is Rule 13 on page three what I did was if you look at each of the standing committees the first line is and insert the appropriate committee is the Committee on Public Service composed of three members the first named member thereof to be chair it's said chairman I never had changed that when I was switching around from he to they and uh the different pronouns and uh grammatical things there so those have all changed in each in one two three four and five of the Committees from chairman to chair and then the second change is on page four and it's rule 15 uh I this had every intention I don't know why in the last version you didn't get it this way but basically rule 15 is the order of business um for Council meetings and the one that was in the previous version was actually in the rules that we have in front of us now and it's not what we follow we cover all the items but there was extra things in there and things kind of out of order so um this reflects exactly what we do in meetings now and it added uh the council comments and remarks which should have been added when we had adopted them so that is corrected and updated and those are the only two changes from the version that you had in your packet um since our last meeting does anybody have any questions about that great okay so thank you all um and it is right now it is 6:54 we have our regular meeting at 7:30 depending where we are in the discussion um so I'm going to start on my presentation through the changes that I propose depending where we are on this discussion when we approach 7:30 I may um if it's 7:30 I have to recess this meeting open the regular meeting I could recess that meeting and then reopen this meeting to finish it so I'll see what our progress is at that point um and then if I think you know if it seems like we have more discussion to go then I can certainly close this meeting at 7:30 and uh I can we can continue it on at a later date and that's what I can State at that time and we continue to discussion then okay so so I will go through the proposed rule changes and explain my reason for each as well as my broader goals in making these changes as you know I've been council president for nearly 5 years and as part of that also chair of the finance committee and acting mayor during that time it has given me insight into where our rules are lacking and or haven't kept up uh with the way that the council operates I also believe there are ways that we can improve our process to make it more transparent easier to understand for both the council and members of the public and both members of this Council and the public should be able to easily prepare for our meetings and that starts with Clarity on our rules and procedure so that's really where I am behind uh these proposed rule changes so the most basic change that I am proposing is updating the language and our rules to acknowledge that women serve on this Council and can serve as council president there are certain rules that I believe are Antiquated and could be in conflict with the open meeting law and as I said my goal is to make our meeting meetings um run smoothly and make sure that they are easy to follow with members of the public for the council president I have proposed that we eliminate the position of the current rule that stipulates that the council president also serves as chair of the finance committee automatically uh first I think that it's unnecessary and second I believe especially in the situation where that individual is also acting mayor as I was that this vests too much power in one person upon the mayoral vacancy in the same day uh the I became acting mayor city council president chair of the school committee and chair of the finance committee um and so I just think that speaks for itself and if you want to try to come up with a scenario with that could happen I I can give you one okay uh so this will improve debate during our meetings as the chair of the finance committee will be on the floor and also able to participate fully in the debate right now sure the council president can step down from the chair but it being a committee that meets most often and very important uh financial pieces and one of the main things that we do as counselors is we um are the voice of the people when it comes to our City's finances and where their taxpayer money goes I think it's important to have three three people on the floor regularly that can speak on that matter I am I am proposing allowing the council president to appoint what I have termed a special Council liaison from time to time I've seen issues or projects that arise that do not have a formal role for an appointed counselor or don't always uh fall under the jurisdiction of a standing committee or have some other special circumstance that they fall under so in many cases this is resolved by law or ordinance which provides for such an appointment examples are the Rockwell committee the school building committee the Capital Improvements committee and and so on in that respect um however I have seen instances where that is not the case and I think that having the ability would increase and improve communication between the council and administration when those matters arise for example as it is right now um a counselor is also a member of the gr but that is not always the case or for a project like the current Waterford Community Center um or for an issue that may not require Council action at this time but improving that communication will basically Aid the council when the time does come this doesn't take the place of a standing committee but I do think that it will be for issues or projects before they arise to that level or fit into another crack somewhere um but the bottom line is this will give the council through the president another tool to assist in our work with the mayor and the city departments if we have someone who can be a leaz on um to be sure that um a check and balance But be sure things that are moving forward that may come before us anyway any questions comments so so the special is on that hasn't been codified in any way and that's what you're trying to do correct yep which makes sense to me because you've been a council president has been naming councilors to different things for years and and we and we vote on it right like we already vote on it so to me it's like just formalize it and I think it shows in terms of transparency it shows to the public that we have an interest in the things that are going on and we want to stay in our lane to be sure that you know they're getting done it's a formal way to bring it through the council any other questions uh so I am proposing simplifying and expanding our ability to request a roll call vote most roll call votes we take are stipulated by ordinance or law but uh many votes are not uh under our current rules a super majority of those present would have to agree to having a roll call vote it really doesn't make any sense and it could enable a majority to be less transparent by refusing a recorded vote um it has also become that this council's common practice is to conduct a roll call vote when a council requests it anyways so this will just formalize that practice uh you know a lot of times I just say I'm going to do a roll call vot um and no one objects to it but you know I think it's important in some cases for a counselor to be able to request it and again in as I said in transparency you might as well have someone to be able to request a roll call vote so we're just on record through the years and days of what we're doing any questions okay so the agenda is where I think that we need the most Improvement during this term we have had instances where counselors were confused or members of the public were confused leading to an interpret an interruption of our meeting in one case and an overall lack of clarity at times as to what items are expected to be taken up um under our current rules all items are supposed to go directly to a standing committee and only come to the floor after their review or if the issue cannot be otherwise resolved however that process has only been scantily observed during my years on this Council and I think it has led to that confusion and caused our agendas to be inefficient so for example under the current rules or more how we have proceeded in the absence of clear guidelines a counselor could submit an item to the agenda on Thursday then two counselors could force a vote on that item as early as the following Monday while there may be emergency situations where this is acceptable because those do arise uh there where there's just time sensitive items that we have to come through the council uh there should be a process for that that is open and speaks to transparency as well so my proposal rule for the agenda covers those instances as well as uh under just regular business it makes sure that counselors can be prepared thoroughly to vote on matters and have a clear and concise meeting agenda so this will also ensure that members of the public will be able to know more clearly what is expected to be taken up at a given meeting under the current system we use meeting time to make referrals or ask for more time which only takes away from the actual Council business we're going to be doing at that meeting and things we're going to be voting on and just to reiterate the problem that I see from a transparency perspective is that once an item is on our agenda it has satisfied the open meeting law requirements and could be voted on while this is not something that usually happens there is no reason for it to be a possibility and we have standing committees for a reason they do important work we take our time on those Comm committees as we all know and we should support that open and transparent process uh you know there's examples of other councils and other cities in in Massachusetts that don't do it that way they don't utilize um their standing committees or subcommittees at all or items just never end up there that should go there and um they never you know end in a of procedure we utilize our standing committees and Gardener I think that's something that we should be really proud of and continue to do uh so um we should support again that open and transparent process and in the rare instances where quick action is required on an item this would still allow for that but it would require that the reason be clearly stated and affirmed to justify that quick action and that's something I think is very important I think it'll improve the flow of the agenda items and most importantly remove any confusion as to what is to be expected um to be taken up at any regular meeting any questions on that Council Brooks I I only have a comment briefly um thank you madam president uh the mayor had mentioned earlier this evening the appointments committee had 50 plus appointments that were given this past January I think this changed specifically um would have been very welcome back then I know we had issues uh not only the complexities of coordinating the appointees the mayor's office and the committee but also having 50 appointments on our agenda created confusion with the public and the appointees not knowing if they should show up to the meeting or not to be sworn in by the clerk so I think this this role change would directly improve that situation going forward so I welcome it thank you councelor that's actually one of the direct examples recent example we've all been a part of that was came to mind with it and then the other piece of it is if there is an item that you know is the public is very interested in and it's going to be a referral that evening or it's even going to just be referred to Committee of the whole um it still is you know they come to the meeting they show up they just don't know it's it just makes it that much clearer um and that your example speaks directly to the agenda and it being clear and efficient to what is going on there if it goes to First coun BS yep so if I can follow along on that say with those appointments then they would just not show up on the agenda for subsequent meetings so what so what would happen is they only get to the first um so in the in the rulle so the proposal rule for the agenda um and this is this is I'm assuming they would the first time on when the appointments come up they would go on the agenda and be referred appointments they would not so what this would do because this is actually how it is right now they actually should go to the committee chair first and then as it's even written already in our rules and then you know we have to have these little pieces of paper in the desks and you write them out or you could email and send the item to the committee chair no one does it that way everything comes to the council president and the clerk we put it on and then we refer it and that way and then it goes to understanding committees and then that committee may or may not have met for whatever reason by the time of our next meeting so these things are just sitting on the agenda so what this does is it actually is going back to what we we really are you know are supposed to be doing um because the way we do it is fine it's allowed but this way it's like when we have an agenda in front of us it has already been to the committee first so the item would go to the committee chair and um and that they would call their meeting they would have their meeting and then once they make their recommendation for the council it goes on the council agenda so when it comes to us we get reports from committees you know it's and it's been um it's already been discussed and there's no referral at that point okay so so if if I may it would be similar to what is happening at at tonight's meeting with many of the finance orders they were presented to the finance committee at their meeting on on Frid Friday Friday on Friday and now we're coming with a recommendation yes so those would show up on our agenda we would as councilors we would see it first on a finance committee agenda rather than on uh the city council meeting agenda okay it also as a way for the public to be more engaged in the subcommittees because the work we do again is important and it's thorough it also has the rest of the council be more engaged in the other subcommittees um and you know I think that that's a really good example counselor is finance committee items are very rarely ever referred to the finance committee because they always just come to the finance committee chair first who happens to be the council president so we just do it that way it goes to the finance committee first so by the time we get to the council calendar we're already reporting because we've already studied that item or asking for more time or whatever it may be um you know that a lot of those are they're Financial items and uh those are time sensitive a lot of the time or there things that take a little bit more study but there's again it's already written in the rules we have right now um there's other reasons to even follow that because we would get an agenda in front of us and the appointments committee is the example in this case we've been talking about but it's like if somebody's on there that night the appointments committee has already met they've already considered the appointment the person sees their name on the agenda they know they can show up and be sworn in that's just one example of that so if I could if I can keep going here swor in if we don't confirm it just right so so with with the 50 appointments we got those those 50 appointments would be on the first agenda for the appointments committee they would first go to the appointments committee they would never be on the agenda and and before that and from the appointments committee standpoint would there be like 10 appointments per meeting posted until they finally get them all done or would on the first meeting 50 of them go on and then they post 10 at the Tim or so so 50 would go on and then they would meet on whatever they whoever they you know whichever items they met on and then once those items were met on those appointments would come to the council agenda and the action by the council would be taken and then the remaining the ones they hadn't met on would remain on their next agenda right correct so they would be carrying them over several meetings they would be carrying them over but at least it would be on one agenda in one spot and not all over our agenda like we ran into with us trying to figure out what was and we can do that but it's like you're skipping all these items because they just can't they're not going to do all 50 in one meeting and that is the extreme example of thatc uh thank you madam president I think uh unintentionally uh that's how we've kind of been doing the appointments committee meetings because uh I as chair I had to modify our agenda to have a discussion portion and then a separate referrals from the full Council that way I wouldn't lose track of the appointments in our agenda but I was having um one of the very first meetings of having 50 appointments on the agenda I had people showing up that we weren't ready to discuss yet so having a space for those appointments until we're ready to schedule the interview with them um so it's been actually how the appointments committee has been functioning um since January thank you further discussion so within the proposed rule agenda um that I have up here about a little over halfway down an item may not appear on the council calendar without first being referred to a committee unless such request is needed writing to the clerk and the clerk obtains the ascent of the council president and the chair of the committee to which the matter would have otherwise been referred so that kind of covers the case where you know that covers any kind of like extending circumstances where it's not like a regular item that we know what to do with um but before that the clerk basically items are go to the clerk as they go to the clerk now and then they consult with the president and then they get assigned to the Committees and then we have our regular agenda that has all of the things that have already gone through committee on the agenda so it just makes it really clear that we are likely we are most likely to act on these items tonight we never have have to act on anything that's directly on our agenda we can refer back to the committee but we're not starting with a bunch of items we all know we're just referring to committees in the first place any further questions okay okay okay EXC okay this is a uh pretty simple and straightforward clarification of the amendment process I think the most important part of this change is the allowance at request by guarantee of this rule for a 10-minute recess to consider an amendment I can tell you as council president um when an amendment comes up I mean just depending on the meeting or where you are you have to be sure you have it worded correctly sometimes the counselor May um submit it to the clerk at the beginning of the meeting so I have it in front of me but it needs to be read back appropriately and that everybody knows what they're voting on so uh what this what this does is it will just ensure transparency and make sure that the counselors who are about to vote on a matter when they came to a meeting prepared looking at a matter as well as the public observing the matter have enough of an opportunity to understand the process of the amendment and what is being considered because amendments don't happen all the time and uh when they do it's uh it's important because it's not something that was in our packet um but it's important for people to understand in the room what the amendment process process is what the amendment is and what's about to happen next when we vote what are we doing next uh and so this was just to put something in there about amendments that would guarantee us to be able to have um a 10-minute recess at any time that there is an amendment Council Brooks and the rule five five floor access limitation that limits speech to twice two times for total of five minutes each so what's the does that mean I can speak for 20 minutes or does that mean I can speak multiple times sorry you have to apologize C I'm going to put a rule on here that says no apologizing and propose this see what you think um I can't isn't it for uh no no I I mean that's not how I would interpret it maybe other people would is Rule five says to obtain the floor members shall address themselves to the chair right on recognition they shall not speak more than twice in any one question without permission of the council more than five minutes at any time I just right no I know I'm just wondering what what access they're they're gaining from CC I just give my interpretation maybe that'll help I I interpret this as say we've gone around a big discussion is occurring we've gone around twice technically you're you've used up your time to speak but someone has an idea that they've said and now you want to make an amendment to the item this gives more opportunity to that to the council to do that right so so it's multiple times rather than longer times yeah I think it's just that opening opportunities for for for the discussion so I so just to be clear like it's you can it basically if you've already spoke your two five minute times and maybe I can read word this to make it clear but if you already spoke 5 minutes twice on some thing if you then want to offer an amendment you can speak again is that in so many words yeah that's fine okay C I think you're with the on the head there I think that second sentence it just needs the added in um in making the mo making a motion to amend or something to that effect so a councel offering an amendment exempt from rule five for Access limitations permission requirements um somehow to be to be able to make set am Amendment but I'm sure I can get word better that's Council I think you're right I don't think we want with un limited access okay is there any further discussion or comments on any of that questions okay thank you so that can certainly be um rewarded rewarded to be clear but the general concept do you have any like objections or anything you okay okay thank you I'm really asking these questions for clarification so that when we vote on them and move forward right I understand what what they mean well that was in the goals transparent and Clarity that was like the whole thing so we want to make sure we're there thank you okay so our current rules have little structure as to how the process of our rules actually work um so under the current rules a rule may be amended or repeated at any meeting and I'm sorry a rule may be amended or repealed in any meeting I don't think this is necessary or proper there are times where it may be necessary to suspend a rule which is not something that we do like ever um but there could be times that it is necessary to suspend a rule but making permanent changes to our rules should require um more of a process to prevent any parliamentary like problems or tricks so if you look at the proposed Rule and the current um rules for the council rules it directly addresses this this could be you know a moment where um you can basically just amend or change a rule at any time and this is what would the proposed rules that's what changes it um I hope that's clear I struggled with this one myself but that's the best way I could explain it any questions comments Council Brooks I saw on on your rule 20 you're saying a rule may be suspended for a defined portion or entirety of a single meeting by a majority vote of the Council on the motion of a counselor that had formerly been 2/3 I'm kind of on the fence on that change just because if if you're changing the rules on if you're having a contentious issue and you have a majority that wants to push something through that requires a rule change is that what you want do you really want two-thirds of the council to go along with a rule change to push it through if that makes sense well so or or or a suspension of the a suspension of the rule to me is a temporary change well it doesn't it doesn't change it it suspends it right it doesn't actually change the rule correct so so that's different there but I think I think this actually addresses exactly what you're saying but it would take a majority to suspend the rule M on a particular item sure to suspend it but not change it so I I'm not like I'm not against in the moment you know the two-thirds I mean that is that is the you know that is the two-thirds majority right so it isn't just half the council so it is most of the council that wants to do that but it doesn't this is really more on the lines of like changing the rule yeah I I'm I'm uncomfortable with it but it's not a deal breaker for me I would express it that way okay I I say we'll see how it goes and if it I can maybe offer more clarity on that too but I want a minute you know to think about it because to me that was like I don't see any you know I don't see it any different than that but I'm you know glad to consider it of course okay any comments other comments questions okay so rule three in my opinion is unenforceable and has not been enforced during my time on the council it is also suspended by state ethics laws so if a counseler has a conflict they are required to make the appropriate filing to be in compliance also as the rule is written to be excused from a vote due to a conflict the Council has to vote to allow a counselor not to vote so that really doesn't make any sense because it's not up to us as the other counselors to determine whether or not a counselor is conflicted according to state law and so the other provision that a counselor is the councelor shall not leave without permission um I definitely think that this is completely unnecessary um but what would we do really to enforce it if we found our El in that situation um I think we can be reasonable in assuming that this is pretty unlikely to be an issue and unless we are prepared to order the police to force a counselor to remain at a meeting against their will um I just think it's in our best interest to drop this and not keep it in our rules um so this was um so this was one of the rules that I think should be removed and then rule eight is also unnecessary because our rules don't otherwise specify specific motions that may be in order so if a motion or a procedure is not forbidden by our rules then it is already allowable and I think that should be consistent across all of our rules um and I just want to be really clear on this because I know that we have we have used this um but without this rule you can still divide the question it's still an allowable motion um we follow Robert's Rules of orders anyways like for all of our rules there's a lot of different motions that we could put in our rules so I only want to remove it because why are we like singling out this one type of motion that's within our rules um I just don't think it um is necessary to be in there because you can still do the action whether it's in there or not and there's a lot of other motions that we could single out and throw in our rules but I think they would be very long if we did that so it just kind of of sticks out to me as something that's unnecessary is there any questions or comments on the removal of R 3 rule8 okay and then uh I'm proposing to remove rules 15 and 16 um we did speak about this earlier when we were on item 11289 um I think that they have the potential to be in conflict with the open meeting law and they have Provisions to allow for matters to be considered that have not been properly published beforehand so the structure is just better served what I have proposed in the new rule for our agenda um and so I think that we don't need to be you know as the open meeting law has also kind of evolved and been interpreted and come out I just don't think that either these are necessary to have um on the agenda you know if we have to add a necessary item at a particular time then um we will add that item and the agenda can be amended but that is at the council president's discretion right now and uh you know again in transparency and the spirit of the whole reasoning and the goals of me to do this uh I don't love to add things and amend the agenda at the last minute it really is if it's a necessary item and during the meetings it will be discussed as to why it was necessary to do that now you know I'm council president and other presidents might think of that differently but I think that makes sense and that's really reasonable um and then kind of the item if you have till 12:00 to submit on noon on Thursday to submit an item to the agenda well if we adopt these proposed changes one of the previous changes is that items go to the subcommittee first anyways so there's no there's no 12:00 there's no time for that um that really needs to be met I know it's it's great for the clerk I understand that um but I did get you know the clerk's opinion on this and um it kind of seems that you know anyways even even as of even as of right now um the agenda is is has to be posted on uh Thursdays for our Monday meetings in order to comply with the open meeting law for the 48 hour rule uh and so you know she can get something at noon and you know we try to stick to that as often as possible and it is in there but I mean we could take it out and and if we didn't have any other rule she could get it after that time and it could get on the agenda it would be on time it wouldn't be last minute because that's when our items our agendas are posted anyways but like I said just to reiterate if we accept all the other changes the change that comes along with how items go onto the agenda if they're in a subcommittee first we know well before that meeting that it is going to be on the agenda and that's another part of just to keep it organizational and efficient and that in turn does help the clerk's office um so that was the reasoning for removing items uh rules 15 and 16 any questions or comments on that process and then these are simple minor changes just to round out our rules so rle one adds an additional requirement that an annual schedule of regular Council meetings be published at the beginning of the year uh this is already done um the clerk publishes them on our website but this will require it to be done in it shows that again it's transparent where if anyone wants to know anytime we're meeting throughout the entire year it's already in the rules as to when we meet but they can see exactly when it is so holidays you know Etc where the meetings fall they can be ready to go but um we already do this this just requires it um or makes it required and then rule 19 that is proposed that'ss the council rules as rules for standing in special committees so they don't at this point they there will won't be any discrepancies the standing committee chairs and the Committees can fall back to the council rules so they have something that they're able to follow and so there isn't questions of things at um the uh standing and special committee level which also if we're going to change the way that we do this and to make it uniformally that items are going to go to the standing committees first this also helps them have a better Foundation um where they are able to run the committee and get these items into their committee and discuss appropriately and if there's any question they have rules to set back on and that is it is there any questions comments at 7:27 anything to add any anything else okay thank you Council tus I just want to thank you for putting this work together I think it's something that the council shouldn't be afraid to regularly review so I'm glad that that you've done it and I think a lot of these changes make very very good son so thank you thank you councelor thank you uh so the um what I would say on this item just um regards to our next our regular meeting which is starting in two minutes uh I just want to see does anybody have anything further on either item 11289 or item 11432 I'm sorry 423 that were the subject of the informal meeting this evening is there any other thing to discuss questions comments suggestions um so I think for this item uh if we and I I recognize this is the first kind of discussion explanation that we've had of it um Council ma is not here I believe she may be at uh the regular meeting this item being the rules of the city council I would think that we would have everybody here to vote on them um I know we can do anything with a u Quorum but I just think you know this being the city council if it's important you know for everyone to vote on it um it might be reason to wait uh or have everyone have a chance to vote on it but also uh if anybody wants to vote this evening you know that we can we can do that too uh but I was going to propose that we would maybe take some more time on this maybe rewatch this meeting you'll get a copy of this you know can reach out with questions whatever it is any further anything further uh just we can do um quickly here are we agreed to take more time is there any objections that anyone want to weigh in on that um more time on this item it's rules let's take let's be deliberate take the time I'm sorry they're rules so let's be deliberate and take the time thank you other comments on that okay I forgot to ask if of this meeting if anyone is recording tonight's meeting no one else has entered exited the room besides the mayor and Council MC any else okay no one's recording tonight's meeting hearing nothing further the meeting stands a journ thank you