##VIDEO ID:mkPrpW6AtgE## e e asking tting we're good by hour Thanksgiving just good evening folks okay all right we're good we're good you can hear us coming through evening folks and welcome to the meeting of the planning board of November 13th um and I'll just open it up with pursuant to the open public meetings law this is the stake for the record that adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to the public by publication in the Union County Haw and on December 21st 2023 and by posting on the B website and filming and filing of said notice in the office of the municipal clerk uh the zoom access for viewing purposes is posted on the burrow website this is a regular meeting of the board um at this time I would ask anyone in the audience uh if they have a cell phone if they'd either silence it or turn it off and that members of the board as well um and now I would like for a moment of silence and flag I pledge allegiance to the of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivis with liy and justice for all thank You Adele roll call please mayor blumenstock here Mr C biano here councilwoman salmon here chair greet here miss vagio is excused Mr nstead here Mr Barkin here Mr McCormick miss biano here miss hay and Mr buers here okay um everyone has an had an opportunity to U read the minutes of or review the minutes of September 25th um do I hear a motion I'll make a motion do I hear a second all those in favor I opposed hearing none motion carries meeting uh minutes are accepted okay we have uh basically just a discussion item tonight about Co and we have a representative from har Consultants who's our expert in that uh in that field and he's representing us um from a b standpoint so with that I'm going to turn it over to Michael mrada um of harbard consultants and uh he can introduce himself and give us a little rundown on what he's proposing to give us tonight thank you um my name is bua licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey um I concentrate primarily on Mount Laurel housing affordable Housing and Redevelopment those two factors of planning um that's all I've been doing for the last 10 plus years um I represented my firm represented the burrow in the prior round we put together the third round housing element fair share plan um it was a we went through a court process where it was approved by the court beir share housing and a special master um as most of you know that third our third round plan had three major projects known as verilla one verilla 2 and the Garwood uh paperboard project those were the three main developments there are other mechanisms and other obligations so I don't want to just lose sight of them those but those are the three main developments that were that comprised our RDP under the third round plan best that was based on Mount Laurel 4 came into play 2015 fast forward here we are 2024 and the governor signs a new bill a new affordable housing bill March 20th of 2024 this year um grading a new affordable housing Bill amending the fair housing act and putting a road map of how municipalities have to begin thinking about what's known in my world as the fourth round that's what we're facing our third round plan is in play it's still in place right now and it expires at the end of June 20125 so the new law creates a new mechanism new rules that we have to follow and a lot of deadlines that's the one of the biggest things I want to talk about tonight um so that we remain in compliance and it's very important that in my opinion that you remain in compliance Garwood has a really strong history of compliance of putting plans together of meeting their constitutional obligation uh of affordable housing housing obligation and um we're in a very strong position burrow wide right now and we've been working hard to keep it that way there have already been two deadlines this year that were mandatory rep uh deadlines that we had to comply with in order to remain in in compliance one was a June uh 2024 reporting deadline of our affordable housing trust fund and the second one was September 18th 2024 of a second part of the affordable housing trust fund as well as a unit monitoring report that essentially is like a update of our midterm a midpoint review that essentially it's an audit of how well did you do in the third round and you okay great you adopted this plan 10 years ago how did it work how did it do how many units did it uh produce and what's the status of those units so and so forth It's called a unit monitoring report it's essentially an audit how well did you do and you have to complete that report electronically and in paper form and everything gets submitted down to New Jersey dep Department of Community Affairs those are public documents I welcome everybody to take a look at them uh and it just gives you the temperature of where we are right now next major deadline that we have to start thinking about is January 31st there's a binding resolution that needs to be adopted by our governing body that resolution is based on a report that was released by The DCA October 18th couple weeks ago was Friday afternoon at 3:00 DCA releases what's known in my world as the numbers report I have copies of the report if everybody anybody wants it it's also available everything I'm talking about is available online all you have to do is go to the DCA website the reports right there download it uh you could take a look at it read through it um copy s distribute okay let me just see which one the report is at okay this is one handout that we could I have one copy okay um I just handed out a report or a memo that summarizes what's in that report and it breaks down for anybody who wants to know I should wait till everybody has it and make sure I didn't hand out my only copy thank you and we have another one or this is that's all I have I'm sorry no that's fine I brought 10 copies perfect the report essentially you know just so everybody understands this report was released October um 18 2024 the link to the report is right on the first page where you find all the information the methodology and then it gives you a breakdown of the fourth round and it summarizes how how did they calculate these numbers how do they calculate this obligation that we have worldwide and just so you know when you look at the report every municipality throughout New Jersey is provided with a number unless you're an Urban Aid municipality okay so Urban Aid municipalities are exempt they get zero obligation for for this round but every other municipality gets the obligation and the the memo just walks through there three main factors that are used to calculate our number and the first one is our equalized non-residential valuation factor and what it does is it it analyzes the increase in the value of our commercial and Industrial properties from a period of 1999 to 2023 in relation to all all the other municipalities in our region so it and that's on page the bottom of page one and I'm not going to go through every single step you have it in front of you but you could see the math on page two of the methodology that was used to calculate that increase in value and essentially what it's doing is over this 24e period it's analyzing the value of our commercial and industrial property properties in relation and how much they have what how much they have changed in value over that period and in relationship to every municipality in our region so and that's all broken down on page two each step of of the methodology the second factor is the income Factor income capacity factor it's called and this essentially is the the degree to which a municipality's median household income differs from the Inc from an income floor of $100 below the med the lowest median household income in our housing re housing region and then page two and most of Page Three gives you a stepbystep analysis of that factor you can click on the tables it brings you right to the data to take a look at the data it's all based on the census data over a five-year period um and it again this is all published information published data there's it's all the data every numbers readily available to take a look at and what you're doing is you're comparing look at page three item number one you looking at the median household income in the past 12 months of Garwood for this 2002 ACS 107,2 3 and it's comparing it to 46360 which is $100 below the lowest median household income in the region and then you get a difference and then you just keep going through the different multipliers to determine what our factor is the third Factor after we look at our non-residential valuation we look at our income median income valuations and now you're looking at land capacity factor and essentially they use a GIS and this is now on page bottom of page three and the top of page four my handout um again I'm not going to take up all your night by going through each one of the 10 steps but you could take a look and read each one of the steps that are taken into consideration all the properties that are are excluded and so forth and and how they did this and it's all done via GIS uh computer system and they mapped every single parcel in the state of New Jersey using this GIS data system all right so we're being treated the same as every other municipality in New Jersey and you could see I'll just go to item number one on page four because I think it's probably the most important but it it it starts with what state New Jersey state planning area are you located in and we predominantly are located in What's called the Metropolitan planning area one which is if you look at the map it's the darkest red it is where it's basically built out it's all developed and the the mapping says this is where future growth Redevelopment should be con concentrated in New Jersey so we're sitting and for the record most of Union County Essex County Berger County Hudson County P County are all not I don't say all but predominantly in this Metropolitan planning area this dark red um area so you're getting the highest factor in the equation for development if you're wondering in the back of your head why are we getting such high numbers well we High income levels median income very high increase in our non-residential valuation of our properties and we are located in this Metropolitan planning area pa1 there are other multiple other factors step by step you can go through and then you use these three multipliers that you create out of those three factors and that's how they calculate the number and they assign us the value of 80 units as our fourth round obligation our prospective need now if I go to the table on page five you can see that existing and I'm on the top of table one on page five says existing developable land even the d uh even the DCA recognizes we don't have any developable land their own mapping says it's 0.399 Acres that's what they came up with after they did this entire study of our burrow a third of an acre bur wide okay we don't have any land so what I don't I don't want that's why I don't want you to get hung up on it because what I did below that was what if factors what if they made a mistake and there's the 0.399 they they made a big mistake and it should be zero I just zeroed it out and we plug that number in what happens with the equation and Our obligation it goes down to 79 we lose one it goes from 80 to 79 if I zero out the third multiplier Okay so it it's you know a lot a lot of my municipalities are you know the difference is a lot greater and they're having us take a look at the gis now the state on October 18th released and uploaded everything on their website again it's all everything I'm saying is public information and it's all available New Jersey DCA website it's right there couple links you can look at it all a couple clicks and it's all right there now some to sounds oh you got to go look at the mapping well I'm recommending that we don't waste our resources in looking at the mapping if I go through this whole analysis and I I can't move the needle more than a unit so and the other two factors are based on published data that and the tax information we're given to the state so it's based on our tax information the household information is media is based on census data so it's all public information so where I'm going with this is the ability to move the needle or challenge the number based on our review of everything here is slim to none what I'd rather you focus on is I started off by going in the third round no different in the third round when we had a much higher number and then we reduce that number through what's called a vacant land adjustment and I think that's the focus of where I want everybody to start thinking okay because we have this very significant allocation obligation I should say of 80 for our fourth round but even the state is telling us we have no land it's 399 Acres that's what we have that's developable so what do you do in that s situation we don't have enough land to accommodate our constitutional obligation of 80 so that puts us into what's called a vacant land analysis and that's an analysis that my office is going to do we we did it in the prior round we're going to update it for the borrow there's a different set of rules you got to use to PR prepare your vac land analysis it's not the same as what I just went through but again it's public information you could take a look at our V land analys for the third round you go through every property in the town There's a number of exclusions and so forth and you compile what's called a realistic development potential an RDP based on land that is available that a is vacant well we don't have a whole lot of that and B and this is the biggest takeaway of tonight the new law has a quote in there you also have to identify and your vacant Landing now is was the state recognizes that every town we've exhausted all our properties in round three right we don't have anything left in round four the state recognized that so they included in the new law we have to include in our V land analysis what's called sites likely to redevelop that's your homework that's the most important statement I can make tonight our public everybody sites likely to redevelop we have a responsibility to identify those and include those within our plan if they meet the site suitability criteria so sites likely to redevelop you're going to hear that a lot over the next few months because we don't have any land the state recognizes we don't have any land we have this very significant obligation and the next step in this process is on January 31st 2025 or before hopefully before then the burrow Council has to adopt a resolution and quote unquote binding resolution that you accept this number for your fourth round number and then you 48 Hours Believe It or Not 48 hours after the resolution is adopted it has to be signed and delivered to the DC a and if you don't do that you lose your immunity all that work that we put in to protect ourselves if you just don't deliver that res sign resolution in 48 hours you lose your immunity and then there are multiple other steps along the way that if you don't do certain things if you don't miss a deadline you lose immunity I think it's kind of ridiculous and burs on everything they supposed to do but we have to meet every deadline I don't want people to get hung up on the number I don't think that should be our Focus we should look at work together as a group on putting together a plan that focuses on sites likely to redevelop and we have to put this plan together in short order it has to be what's called a housing element fair share plan we need to adopt one prior to June 30th 2025 or guess what you lose immunity and you're going to hear that over and over and and you're exposed you don't want to do that the plan has to be sound there's a whole host that's a talk for another night but there's a lot that goes into that plan and that plan has to be delivered to the DCA where it's reviewed by quote unquote the program that's now been established a series of retired Mount Laurel judges will review it there are multiple challenges along the way by developers that may look to I don't want to use the word attack but become uh you know challenge good thank you uh challenge us um that could happen after July January 31st if the bur Council adopts a resolution does what they're supposed to do and and accepts the number and submits the resolution down to DCA within 48 Hours you could you're still open to be challenged by a developer who disagrees with the number and wants to challenge a number so even if you do everything that's right you're still open to a challenge you hire really smart attorneys and I stop talking and I be I hand it all off to them all and then question you on what you said so that's why I handed that's why I handed that out I'm not expecting anybody to absorb this on the Fly not at all so just as a note to to that um we had a small discussion earlier on this is going to be a high level meeting tonight where we're giving all the information like Mike is doing right now and an overview of what what's going on um he left he left us with a handout um he's going to return on um December 11th if his if his calendar is clear and we may very well go into specifics and may go into some exact session based on some of the um some of the items that were going to be discussed so with that if this isn't over tonight this is the beginning of oh this yes and Rich you know yeah for developer the challenge he has to have a property in mind I would think that he wants to develop so you know that's going to be an issue you know someone's going to challenge to have a property in mind the the the major takeaways tonight are we have to work excuse me we have to work quickly every municipality new jerseys under the same law okay we're all facing the same situation January is a major deadline with the resolution it's only saying you accept the number the the the main deadline is June 30th 2025 we have to work together and put together a plan and that plan has to go through public hearings public meetings it's posted on websites it's you know the planning board has to adopt it governing body has to endorse it before the end of June 2025 then it's delivered down to DCA that is our that's really our work and that plan's going to dis you know describe where we propose these units go in our town so we have six months we really don't have six months because documents have to be AA made available rep public in advance in meetings um there's a lot of work that has to get done you don't write these plans overnight um you really have about three or four months I think by the time you you go through the process and we should really be trying to focus on getting the plan done I would hope by April May at the latest Because by the time it has to be published and made available the hearing schedules and so forth so it's a very short window to put this plan together and I'm not I'm going to I'm going to kind of stop here I'm not going to go into the the plan itself and you know that's a discussion for another night um but we have a lot of work to do so please yeah sure please that's what this is discussion by the state this not correct yes sir okay so has the state ever really they come here before this board and I'm sure they do with every other and they do all these traffic studies well I'm a traveler every day and over the last three years my traffic from Madison or Califon back to Garwood has increased 20 minutes either way so I want to know before we sign on to this how we all stand about that because right now coming past we's Nursery in Westfield it took me a half hour so we have to consider all so when we say oh we can't challenge I think there is a point where we should be challenging and I'm not going after you to the public that's all I have Mike there was something I wanted to bring up but I know I I saw everybody it's like got might have some questions on the methodology itself maybe we do that first but then there's something else I wanted to talk about about other possibilities that you see going around yeah the first the first thing I wanted to do tonight was talking about this number and the methodology and and at least nobody I'm not expecting anybody to absorb this tonight you know so you have it you go home with it I have a second handout that talks about the the law itself and each step the deadlines and so forth it gets a little bit more granular it's more homework for you um more information for you again it's all public information we tried to put this a very complicated topic and get it down into a very well- written memo for you so at least when you go home at night and you read it you have the information I'm not expecting anybody to absorb all this tonight what we what I would like you to do is just start thinking I mean I understand I hear the frustration believe me that's that's every night but there are some pretty serious deadlines in here calendars we have to think about and I just wanted to at least get that on your radar tonight as to what we're facing as a community between now and the first half of next year and that's kind I want to you want to speak to just some of the other areas in our in our local that you are involved directly involved with as you are with us meaning you know they're going through the same scenarios that we are and it's everybody's going through this whole phase that's all we're doing 247 right now we're we we represent over 10 municipalities um we concentrate in Union County um in Union County alone we represent Berkeley Heights Scotch Plains Garwood and Springfield for affordable housing I I may have missed a couple um some of my towns are Urban a municipalities and they don't have the responsibility so they they fall fall on a different umbrella um but we're concentrated in uni County I travel up and down North Avenue every single day I've been traveling I commute a long distance to Cranford I've been doing it for over 30 years I could tell you about my commute if you want to talk about my commute how it has extended how I work late uh which certain uh people like that you you got to work late because I can't leave in regular hour hours right so you adjust your schedule you leave earlier you work later I think employers like that but um well um I could talk to you all night long about traffic and commuting and so forth um we are not allowed as a community and this is Statewide to raise uh School raise the issue of school AE children all right it's a it's a non-factor in our in our plan I could assure you of that because the whole reasoning behind this is under the new law even gets tougher 50% of our requirement has to be addressed by units for families okay so you see where this law is going 50% of Our obligation must be satisfied with units designed for families 30% of Our obligation can be satisfied with age restricted units we got a little break it used to be 25 they moved it to 30 recognizing that we're an aging population Statewide um 25% of Our obligation can be satisfied via bonus credits what is a bonus Credit in the memo hand out it's going to give you all the list of them I don't want you get hung up on that what we're going to do is we're going to max out bonus credits and our 25% so that's 25% of Our obligation that's not a unit itself it's a bonus credit so I want to stop there I don't want to go too much deeper into it because I can go all night but those are my three big biggest takeaways as we start putting this plan together 50% of Our obligation has to be satisfied with units for families period 30% of oblig ation age restricted 25% can be bonus credits there's a lot more than that but those are the main takeaways as you start thinking about this plan that we're going to put together and I have a question I have a question um just um with those credits some of those credits are available currently that we we have right that we have not I that we have not utilized in our prior obligations everything gets reset on the fourth round you go back to zero and you start all over again um so we maxed out our age restricted credits in the third round okay and we're going to max out our age restricted credits in fourth round every municipality jumps at that opportunity because that's they want to help keep an aging population in place and provide housing for their seniors and that's probably the easiest left in our plan so every town jumps at that one um and you get bonus credits for that too so that's like a easy way to start chipping away at your number the the struggle every single time and every plan is providing the the the family units and the fact that they have upped that and increased that that has to be a minimum of 50% of your uh RDP or obligation that's the hardest one that we're going to have to work on and that's the hardest one for every municipality can you explain what a family unit is sure it's a market rate design for to to house families uh children uh it's it's it one bedroom two bedroom three bedroom five bedroom what do we at what is the thing going to be it's going to be there's we you fall under What's called the uck rules uniform housing Control Act rules um It's All State mandated a and we did this in the third round under the F when we talk about the family units okay a minimum of 20% of those units have to be three bedrooms a minimum of 20 the minimum of 20% of the units have to be three bedrooms a maximum of those units can be one bedroom and then the others fall under the two-bedroom category and that's mandated you have no you have you can't argue that what's the percentage you said 20% could be three bedrooms to be so then 20% uh Max ones 20% Max on ones so we're left with 60% will end up being twos however and again I'm probably going farther than I wanted to tonight but when you start putting the the charts together and the crediting together you get extra credits the more three bedrooms you provide because they want to incentivize three bedroom units four families you get extra credits so the more that we take out of the two-bedroom category and we slide it over to the three bedroom category we're not creating a new unit we're adding a bedroom but we're getting more credits okay I I get it so that's that kind of like bumps up the rates for yeah and then there's another one lot more boms that people may not want right and then there's credits if you build near Transit and then there's credits if you use Redevelopment and then there and it goes on and on and on okay so you when I said I don't want you to get too hung up on it because as a team we're going to put together a plan that maxes out our 25% credits we're going to max out the 30% age restricted those are the easy those those are the easy lifts the 50% family that's where we're going to work may we end yes in terms of looking ahead and trying to identify sites likely to be developed is there certain criteria that has to be met that qualifies a site to be developed in other words does it have to be commercial property is is there criteria that yeah kind of mandates what that is it's it's a great question and I'm only laughing because tomorrow there's a seminar on the new interpretation of what falls under likely to redevelop because they haven't told us yet and it's not defined under the law uh under the law that was adopted on March 20th it's not defined likely to redevelop I can't tell you tonight what that definition is but um oh that was under the that was under a factor on the multiple I I know but I I don't I don't have a piece I don't have a definition that I can give you tonight we are told that Statewide there's going to be an emergency rule signed into law or however they adopt emergency rules on housing the I think it's the second week of December the first or second week of December where it's go they're going to issue new rules clarifying the law that they adopted on March 20th 2024 so until I get that I don't have an answer for you but I'm supposed to have it within the next couple of weeks yeah refence housing yeah if you yeah um I just want to point you to the section of the memo so we're all looking at the same you look on page one right on the be uh uh where it says background fourth paragraph B Garwood is in housing Region 2 which consists of Essex County Morris County Union County and Warren County the entire state is broken up into C into different regions and that's our region esex moris Union warn here's a second handout Mike if I could ask you a little it's kind of going Beyond this and you might not be able to answer this tonight um but at our council meeting it did come up and I did give my view on it that there is a lawsuit going around um by some municipalities in town um challenging the the numbers um specifically challenging some of the urban areas that are exempt and saying they should be taken into consideration I did give my view on that particular uh lawsuit itself at the council meeting um I do think that the courts have been very and another council member did as well the courts have been very clear that this is the Mandate they you know no case has ever been won by these municipalities um and it is my believe that any change in this is going to go through is going to have to go through legislation not the courts so my view on the lawsuit itself was that it wasn't worth putting the the kind of funds from our taxpayers into however I do think if there is a a way legislation wise that our town can get behind I'm certainly open to that in terms of encouraging our legislators to make amendments for this there is something that um our B attorney made me aware of that a number of Municipal attorneys are are proposing some amendments to legislation to be honest I don't what this um these amendments are are basically saying use the number of cosos as a part of the methodology rather than some of the methodology that the DCA is currently using and I don't know if you can give an opinion to that specifically or I don't know enough about whether that kind of holds water well the second I put you on the spot there but I I didn't know that non attorney opinion okay because I'm I'm not an attorney I defer to the lawyers to give you legal advice um I handed out two memos tonight the first memo was the methodology yeah that's how numbers are calculated Statewide th that methodology was is based on what's known as a numbers trial that was held in Mercer County under judge Jacobson 15 or 16 or 17 I don't remember anymore um it went on for months and months and months had experts from every side of the table and judge Jacobson made a ruling that has been it's known loc you know throughout the state as the Jacobson methodology that is the methodology and now and that has been you know that that is the that's the methodology um to challenge that methodology i' I'd first ask you to go back and read that case at least become familiar with it and understand municipalities were represented and developers were represented all different sides and other a lot of interests were involved so it's known as The Jacobson trial it's a widely published widely known uh case I I I it's very long and detailed you don't have to get into the granular portion of it but at least understand how was derived and at least that's the foundation of where everything that I handed out tonight is based on right because the DCA just used that same methodology and carried it Forward right what you mentioned was there's a group of attorneys I don't know what they filed I I I'm aware of it and they're challenging that methodology and suggesting or recommending a different methodology based on the number of CEOs issued in a municipality over a period of time which would show growth in that town um I don't want to not answer your question but I I think it has uh I think I think it's going to be challenging um I'm aware of that I'm aware of the other buyer lawsuit that's been filed um from a different Law Firm that is Raising procedural questions concerns on the adoption of the A4 s50 Bill and a lot of the procedures and mechanisms that's Incorporated within the law and challenging the fact that Urban Aid municipalities are excluded from an obligation among among many other items but again I don't want to that's there's a there's a hearing on that I think it's December 5th I think you could tune into it I believe through New Jersey courts so I'm not sure but I think it's November December 5th if not I can give you the date you could circulate circulate it so you if you want to inform yourself you learn and you listen to the arguments back and forth on both sides I'm not going to sit there and say much more about it you'll you'll see it play out in the courts and it's active it's the hearings are scheduled this one hearing is scheduled for the first week of December I'm sure there's going to be many others um yeah we're aware of all of those and all of the legal groups that we work with at the same time just keep telling me keep your head down and keep working yeah because this deadline's fast approaching and you've got all this legal stuff going on I have to stay in my lane and make sure that I do my job to put a plan together for you that is within the four corners of this wall and let those guys fight it out no and I agree I know even if we you know as a municipal body um try and encourage our legislators to make amendments we still have to plan right now for this problem the clock's ticking at the same time and what if what if you know if if the challenge fall fails what happens right you know we have to be prepared so it's like a if we if we if we get a stay or a challenge or something like that I'm on vacation immediately I can promise you that I'm looking for I'll take that but and you know follow list learn follow the process um it's all publicly available every single thing I said tonight is public information I've tried to help you find it with all the links with all the data that I handed out I'm not expecting anybody to absorb it all tonight because it's complicated there's a lot to it um and I'm happy to come back at a future meeting and answer your questions at that time after you've had time to absorb and think and question and then start talking about the putting this plan together and and what I would ask um for our next meeting is as as Michael has said don't look at how we can challenge it look at how we can how we can attack it and make our deadlines that we have to make because you can she said you can challenge it all you want but it's not going to it's not going to help us if we in the end of the day don't meet a deadline and we wind up open up opening up our Shop to uh to a Builders remedy that's not going to help anybody very nice you to say that but as you use the word challenge we as taxpayers we're paying for a lot of this so if there's a word challenge yes we should challenge the wor and how that affects us and I think of the seniors which is around a COR me and how I aim for all this if I want to use the word Stu that New Jersey government is mandated in that case it's not fair to us so that's where the word challenging yes should be challenging I'm not saying I'm not saying it shouldn't be challenge I'm saying concentrate on making our deadlines and challenge it that's fine that's not an issue but more importantly or as importantly is that we make sure that we hit hit our our our our deadlines timely and mean we have to do that and what I'm going to ask is for you to review for all of us to review these items and come back with a method or uh process that we can use to make sure that we are timely and in our in what we need to do and be guided by what Michael is is going to present to us and at our next meeting Mike just a quick question did we confirm that all our current Redevelopment projects have been zoned properly yes we did receive confirmation on that well it's part of our midpoint review that again it's a public document that's published um we're required to do what's called a midpoint review that goes back and looks at all the mechanisms that we had put in place to to create those developments um we had we've got a a judgment of repose A J issued by the court at a certain number of conditions we've addressed all the conditions we have a clean bill of health for the third round so we're we're in very strong position through June 30th 2025 that's when it expires so yes we're in really strong position through that point now to stay in a strong position we would have to adopt an updated plan prior to that date and file with the DCA that's the challenge paper board was part and remains part of our third round plan right we're not developers we're not responsible for developing the property as a community we're responsible for planning and put adopting a plan that puts the zoning and Redevelopment in place so that the project can get constructed there is a look back provision in the law that says and I talked about it earlier that you basically have to audit yourself you go back in time and say how did you do and what was done what what got built what didn't get built and why and you have to you have to provide an analysis of it which we will it's required as part of the fourth round plan but our job is Community is to put the zoning in place whether you adopt an ordinance or you adopt a a Redevelopment plan either way our job is to put the zoning in place not to actually construct unless we were to go down the route route of building 100% affordable now you become the developer and you're going to team up with a development team and now you're responsible for that that's a different category so Michael um what it comes down to what you basically said we have to come up with 80 80 units well we we really don't have to you know I don't want to go too far tonight on the 80 unit um but what most the state said in their own report that we have 33 a third of an acre okay so they there's a mechanism in there that's called a vacant land analysis that allows you to go through every parcel in your town and we did this in round three okay and you basically take the 80 unit obligation and you break it into two numbers and the two numbers are your What's called the RDP on one side your realistic development potential and that's what I talked about sites likely to redevelop that's in this category and then what you can't develop under your RDP what's not realistic development potential falls into a second category that's called unmet need we had that in the third round Our obligation was I should know off the top of my head but we had an obligation that was very high we satisfied an RDP that was developed from the verilla One vermil 2 and the Garwood projects okay but that didn't satisfy our whole number all right so that other number fell into that second category called unmet need how do we address it we put an overlay over the Garwood uh Gard mall it's called that's one of the mechanisms and we did a couple of others okay that is designed as an overlay that sits on top of your zoning the zoning all stays in place and it sits on top of it so that if it were to be redeveloped you would collect units through a Redevelopment process or a rezoning process so there two different categories and I know it gets a little confusing but that's why I want you to think about sites likely to redevelop that can realistically create housing in the next round versus this other category of yeah we're gonna have to put some zoning in our town on top of what we have already for unmet need so that zoning whether it's in category one or two would have to be able to suffice in the amount of space you were saying a three bedroom for a family or whatnot and that would have to be incorporated into zoning as a realistic development or future development or zoning by the town so that would all come into play of you know how many units could actually be developed over Kings or whatnot correct correct correct and it gets harder as you go round after round because what happens you you know you you use up your best mechanisms in the round you know second round and the third round and you start running out of land and it gets that much more challenging so the obvious issue I think many of us have is we're being forced to by the state in in the interest of uh low-income housing to become a denser populated town than say uh you know Somewhere Out West New Jersey where there's plenty of land to be developed so we're being forced to have this dener denser Town that's beyond you know what we wanted to begin with for to for the sake of low-income housing it's basically what it comes down to and and it is is right what I what I Mr chairman I'm in the worry begin because there's so many things going on in terms of you know we keep talking about being forced to have M it is on gu I'm too far away um in terms of uh being forced to have low Moder income housing I mean I don't want to lose sight of the fact that how did this all begin you know Mike is it NAACP versus Southern Burlington County yeah umary zoning okay towns towns outright they they zoned out affordable housing you had large lot zones you had um people couldn't afford to live you know uh people had to move out of where they were living because they couldn't afford to live there because there were no low moderate income houses so if we're being forced we did it to ourselves so now we're coming back in and what the courts tried to do was say okay we're all on this together we have to provide housing low moderate income you I know my son would qualify for you know moderate income so you know low moderate income isn't isn't you know somebody making $3,000 a year I mean it's it's a good size is it 80,000 in in Union County I think a family of four I should about 120 yeah it's it's over $100,000 or around $100,000 for a family of four in Union County yeah and it gets higher as you go up to Bergen County you would be surprised at some of the numbers um what it shows is you we live in a really wealthy State yeah we live in a wealthy State people people coming coming out of school getting jobs and not making the money to put down the payments the whole bit we all I get we all know this situation we're all in but that wasn't actually what I wanted to get into I just wanted to kind of kind of I I I I I want to get away from we're being forced we did it to ourselves um every town has provide some low moderate income housing because we restricted housing I went get into red lining and all that stuff but I mean there were a lot of things that that we did so what I wanted to ask though Mike was this um when you talk about the July have everything on like of July July 1 2025 um are you talking about we have to have a master blind hearing we have to amend the zoning ordinance we have to have Redevelopment Studies by then what exactly what documents do we need because how can we I I've talked my fellow planners about I'm I'm very upset with my profession because um we're not planning anymore the planning went out the door 20 years ago all we're doing now is responding to developers who own property who want to provide housing for they don't want to Pro let me rephrase that we're responding to developers who want to get as much profit as they can at a piece of property by building as many units as they can and oh yeah X percentage is Affordable but that's how we responded when we went to look at Westfield mention William's Nursery which that scared the heck out of me because we all know how it's going to be you going buy a half hour it's not even open wait does anybody live there yet it's be Focus I am but Scotch planes you know there's all these places if you were to as planners if we were to say Hey where's the best spot for high density housing would it be rooms Nursery I don't think so I know it would you know there's no train there's no you have to go a half a mile for a gallon of milk it's not the placement that's not smart growth that's not what planers are supposed to do so Mike you talk about the different plans or what have you we have to do it's almost in a way going back to where we used to actually plant and say you know what these sites could potentially qualify for a Redevelopment so these sites can potentially qualify for redevelopment this is where I wanted to occur you as a municipality will actually go into plan and say this is where we want it to occur and we're not going to allow anymore a developer to commit buy some property and say this is what I'm putting it I actually thinking that we're going to have real planning come out of this you have a you have a very small window to put together a plan and I'm on page seven of the second memo I handed out to answer your question you asked me what do we have to do yeah and it's I think it's the most important the second most important takeaway of tonight because I really want the purpose of tonight is to get everybody just start thinking all right I didn't really want to go this deep into the mechanics of the bill but I want but I wanted you to have the information but we're all very busy everybody's got very busy calendars we I'm on page seven of the second memo and there's a deadline on top June 30th 2025 deadline to adopt and endorse adopt and endorse planning board adopts governing body endorses a housing element in fair share plan and we only need the drafts bill but proposed drafts of the appropriate zoning and other ordinances and resolutions implementing the municipality's present need and prospective need obligation so we not only have to put together a housing element and fair share plan make it public have public hearings adopt it send it to the council have the council endorse it all that has to be done by June 30th 2025 in the appendix of that document we need all of the draft ordinances attached so we get first crack at it we get the opp you know by maintaining control and doing what we're supposed to do and maintaining immunity we it's a it's up to us to put together the best possible plan that we can focusing on sites likely to redevelop where we believe as a community this housing is best located and we have short order to do it because by the time you go through all of the like I said before it's we really don't have six months the window gets pretty tight but yeah we have an opportunity to plan we just have to do it really fast that's why I just want to get the thinking out tonight that's all I want you to do is just start thinking of what we're facing over the next few months Steve ban you had a question just a little bit of History yeah bring the microphone closer bring it CL dring it closer to you stting to talk about just where this came from how it started this is not the legislature to create this it's not like we can talk to our representatives in Trump and say what are you crazy what are you doing here this is a decision of the New Jersey Supreme Court New Jersey Constitution so the intention was it's never going to be challenged in the federal court it was decided under the New Jersey Constitution yeah in the Supreme Court of New Jersey said that every town has a constitutional obligation to provide its fair share of moderate and low income housing that's how it started and it was really viewed to deal with a situation where teachers and firen and police could to FR housing in the towns where they were working I I'm simplifying that but but that's really where it came from I mean and this was um the first all was in the 70s but the until it was in the 80s yeah app BYT was when he became chief justice yeah so then the state came up with the idea of having an agency to to implement the AFF Housing Council Co Supreme Court D it and blessed it and then two Governors got their hands Onre Andy and and basically go out of business nothing happened for 15 years and that's why we're seeing this tremendous volume of his catchup yeah and then the obligation M four came and the court said enough of this nonsense correct we're bringing it to the courts let them handle it they and then the latest Bill law earlier this year formally abolished col all together exactly it's out know Supreme Court by the way you know share housing think went to which is a kind of a public interest off room in South Jersey but does this work they got tired of nothing happening to them Jersey Supreme Court was a Christy Court it had a lot of his appointments on there and then and the argument was take it away from col and put it back in the courts y m I don't know Sy if it do it's not doing anything um sometimes add trusted West being the prime example that building housing at the edge of town which is what you see in's Nursery it's a terrible location West great because Springfield and else of it we don't have from obviously it's yes you do yeah that's exactly so if you want to go to West D down St Marks and get to arrival and Par a couple blocks out of town but if you try to go and we don't know that so I mean I just think it's important to realize you don't have a lot of avenues to to litigate this in my recollection I hav't retired for seven years now but I remember the count was sett South and got ham and if you if you want just Google it spend a spend an hour or so and just look at that case and what happens if you don't comply and what happened I don't want to go down that road it's uh so you get the best number you can and talking and and it's not really the number the even the state says we don't have any land okay so I don't want to get hung up on my recommendation as a non-lawyer would be why would you challenge it I gave you a memo that breaks it down step by step the numbers are the numbers you're not going to challenge that number put together the be and if you challenge it if it's not 80 what are you going to pick 60 or 50 75 we can't we can't throw any of those we don't have enough land we're at three oneir of an acre that's what the state says we have what we should do as a group is put together the best plan do some planning in short order put together the best plan that we can that's based on sound planning and and let's adopt it okay let's uh where I'm at Michael is is is that pretty much a wrap-up for you okay um so with that I I think I if there are any questions and we don't need to we don't need to State opinions and and our own thoughts processes on whether this is right wrong or indifferent because that's not helping anybody uh right now right now we have we have a function and we have a an obligation to come up with the game plan to be able to make those numbers and to make those dates so that we can stay viable as a as a community here because otherwise we could really get get torn up and I don't think that's what anybody wants to do right now so with that if there are some specific questions that you would like to ask Michael um he may take you off to the side if he can't answer it openly on here but um if there are some specific questions that he can answer right now um we'll entertain that now if not I'd suggest you take the documents home with you uh take a look at it um study it a little bit come up with some thoughts and ideas one second um come up with some thoughts and ideas and uh we'll come back and reconvene here uh with Michael at um hopefully on the next date which is uh December 11th I believe um if not if Michael can't make it we'll we'll come up with an alternate date um and that's going to be one of our primary functions for that night um if we have other criteria that have to be that has to be addressed that may have to carry over into the new year so um with that I'll open it up for anybody with specifics I have a question Stephanie I'm can we so there's these units that we have to fulfill couldn't it be done in one site with even a just big large building sure we we're control the plan we're gonna we're going to put the plan together so how whether it's one site 10 sites we're gonna decide that but if it's one site it's got to be a big site yeah well that's I'm not suggesting that it can be one site but I think that's a a topic for like maybe the next meeting as we start talking about what sites and I'm not ready to do that yeah I think that's very important I don't think we want to address specific sites right now in our open public meeting Mr chairman I mean Stephanie's question is right on right on the cut no I understand cut me off too um um you know when I when I got this you know the way I responded was okay 80 80 units where can we put them so I a list of 10 potential what is it uh I'm not getting into it I'm not getting into it all right sites likely to redevelop and um I was kind of what's the opposite of taking taking back I was kind of uh excited in a way to see that hey was the state actually saying to the towns you plan when you want this housing I was like wow we haven't heard that in a long long time and so I just encourage everybody to really look at the brone you know I I I don't I don't know and I'm saying I don't know I honestly don't know if it's better for us to put them on one site if it's better for us to spread them out you know that's something for us to think about but if correct me if I'm wrong if you go the same ratio for we did for verela 80 units is that 3:1 four to1 800 no no no no no no no to get to get 80 is 3 to one so you'd have to have 320 or4 320 or 400 units it would be it would be start with a% set aside right a 20% 20% so right so they work um 4 that' be 400 units but but in all fairness it's not no no I understand that people with the wrong impression it's not 80 units because remember I talked about bonus credits that's not a unit so 25 comes out right and I understand and I was just explaining what I did when I first got this I just said wow where are we going to put 80 units without getting into everything that Mike brought out tonight um and so yeah can it go on one site but if it remains 80 units that's 400 but I don't can I just jump in for one second so Jen and I have been you know in conversations for a little while about this we've known for maybe about a month but I think the best thing to look at is where yes where can we put the units that is not super impactful if you go in and build one building you're building the projects that's what is happening so why would Garwood as a collective want to do something like that so if we go in and say okay we're going to put x amount of units here and we move it along or pick you know maybe a smaller spot to develop then maybe the the return on investment is not going to be there for these developers and they're not going to come in and seek us out instead of leaving us open to any units yes we've satisfied the number but we're a not building the projects because I wouldn't think that anybody would want to do that and B we're satisfying our number without actually building it that's the goal right to satisfy the number but not no I don't I don't think that that is the goal I think I we should we should sck with the goal so can I ask a question and with this all this increase in population is there any concerns about infrastructure sewer systems Water Systems police departments fire departments what what do we have to worry about that is that factors that are factored into this and I'm sorry so it really doesn't factor into this per se this is part of what I you know and I I didn't say we moving along but um when we're just talking about challenging this is part of what I'm talking to our congresswoman about a lot and she agrees and we're trying to work together but we need more people involved talking to our legislature that when we do these things it affects all of our infrastructure and we have no support so what happens Garwood needs to raise their taxes to hire more police more equipment whatever it may be there's no support coming from the state or the federal government that is man you know saying this is your number so this it's it's not really a question for Mike or this plan per se about it's not really doesn't have to do specifically with what we need to do it's really about the public getting involved in talking to our state and federal legislature to provide some help for our infrastructure every Town's feeling that and every mayor is sitting here talking to their legislators about it it also but public opinion is really important to our legislators so it helps when the public puts some pressure on too I get that the law does not provide the relief that you're thinking zero no one thinks about that stuff oh they think about it it's just a matter can't handle new people what happens I'm just I'm just be very clear that the law does not provide with the the relief of what your school police infrastructure roads Bridges infrastructure in total there's no relief ingrained in this law I know I know exactly what you're talking about it's the number one topic that comes after you deal with the unit the secondary impacts I need a bigger school I need I need a bigger pipe I need a wider roads so on and so forth that's there's no relief in this bill that addresses that start writing letters start making phone calls yeah Rich I want to end my comment with this I us a lot handouts and it's one thing reading it and it's another thing hearing and I listen and I appreciate thank you and I know I threw a lot at you absorb it I'm not going away I'll be back ask I'll answer any question that you have I tried to provide you all the links so please read up on it and let's put a plan together and just just as a final note along those same lines um Michael's been involved this as far as I I know um well a lot longer than I have but uh he's been exceptional um he's been keeping several key people involved and notified of what what's going on his structured uh process where he lays it out and is timely on what what the reporting process has to be and he has already done and filed um is is impeccable so um yeah we're really fortunate in in having Michael he's involved with with many many communities doing the same thing um so we just have to stay all focused on what we have to do here along with his guidance and I think we can get uh get through get through this not maybe not the way we want to necessarily but at least we'll get through it um effectively as we did with the uh with the stage three so with that any any other comments or questions yeah Maran to share that prior to our I have tried in the memos I've tried to ingrain if you look at the reference documents on page 12 I don't have I I we have tried to include as much of the information and I thought we had yeah the the last two the bottom two we provided the links for the YouTube videos for the last two seminars and as they keep coming we're going to keep updating them because we anticipate that we want we want everybody to follow the more you learn and listen and get involved the better it is for all of us so yes great question the links are at the reference documents and we're going to continue updating that for everybody so you have all the information I have and we're all talking about the same thing okay well thank you Michael appreciate it thank you Steve do you have another copy of the second memo um yes I do actually um I will email I will email both doc just say that I'll email both documents to a could circulate both documents will be emailed to Adele and you can circulate the the documents to the rest of us VI you had a couple comments or a couple of um ordinances that are going to be coming up has always been to not encumber the single family homeowner or two family or small rental units three family homes but we're seeing uh increased expansion as we talked about before larger additions which is all good I mean you see many homes now in Garwood uh doing beautiful Renovations you know at a levels but we're at the point now where the values are very high and more and more requests coming into my office for uh zoning certificates are non- complying they're over on impervious coverage they're over on uh the grading is improper it drains on to their neighbors but we don't have anything on our ordinance to make them come before and submit a minor plan so we're crafting an ordinance now for a minor plan with a minor fee so if you're going to expand Beyond like 400 500 square feet we're thinking 20 by 20 you have to have a plan done by a professional or it can has to be done it doesn't have to be done by a licensed professional I just need a plan done by someone who can scale because we get plans and then I go on Google Earth or I drive out to the site I'm like the whole backyard's concrete you didn't show me that on certificate oh I forgot okay you forgot so now so I'm working with Gabe we have the adjoining Cranford for Cranford I mean they have variances for everything you if you want to go get a fence variance it cost you $2,500 in professional fees to review a fence variance a more than the cost of a fence her daughter just went through something helping her in Clark so we're doing a minor plan that can be done by anyone it could be done by a landscaper someone who can scale a homeowner but we're g to make them charge hopefully they're going to give you a minor fee so to pay for the it doesn't have to go to the board and we can craft that ordinance because single family two family homes are exempt from a site plan to a we call plot plan review and this way and it has to be signed by someone and certified by the homeowner so if they're giving me not the best information I have someone to to we can go back on and uh so that order to work now the problem is the ordinances we're finding are too elaborate and too heavy-handed in my opinion they're way too heavy-handed because how do I know we do a lot of work in the joining towns and we make a lot of money from the heavy-handed ordinances because now we have to charge a homeowner $44,000 to do a deck layout literally we have to go do sometimes they don't let you use an old survey they say oh the survey has to be newer than like five years I'm like well if there's been no changes to the property why do you technically they're not supposed to ask for a new survey as long as it's current but a lot of ordinances ignore the law the law says as long as it's current but so I'm I'm crafting that but the reason it's taking so long is we're we're trying to make it friendly to the homeowner and friendly to the municipality okay very good um do you I don't know how next meeting is going to G to go I mean I it looks like we're going to have some some heavy discussion yeah it probably won't be ready till January I'm trying to clear up desk on a lot of it okay so we we'll probably revisit this in January and that's the same lines I have read so you can see we have we you using the first section of the ordinance now and uh just to show you that you know we have four pages of this it could be ready sooner but I really want to give it a good going over because I'll be the one reviewing these and again and I I call sometimes the the person on the other side of the phone and you know they're like oh it's overhanded government whatever I go to I gotta listen to that I'm like yeah but it also protects you from putting your down spouts pointed at your neighbor's basement and blow them out every time it rains and they get moisture problem Y and then we get litigation and there normally litigation between two parties and the city can't help you so it's there to protect people on both sides mostly it's the water to the issue it's the people take their drains and they Point them right at them neighbor's property and it creates nothing but problems and vict while while we're discussing this um or along these lines um do you feel in your opinion that um C of those first off a CFO should not be uh granted um by a building department stford unless you sign off on on the fact that all all uh requir were met for that uh for that CFO prior to sub prior to um issuing correct we're not the only minicipal have had this issue before there's a disconnect be between construction departments and sometimes municipalities because the construction code official is an employee of the state he's just assigned to that municipality they State Certified sometimes they issue cosos um I've asked every municipality I've been involved with please do not issue cosos until you have a signoff letter from my office on anything that went before the board I reiterated that to the craford construction department and two in-person meetings and you know it's a new construction code official now and I stop by there weekly and I keep reiterating please anything come up in Garwood any cosos I have to give you a letter simple onepage letter mean all the fees were paid to the town mean they they you know they did the fire inspection everything was done just like an inspector signs off a plumbing inspector there should be an A sign off from the board whoever is at the board the planner or engineer signing off because that application went before the board construction code official can only really withhold the co life and safety issues well if they didn't comply with the resolution then not in Conformity with their approval so that's what I'm trying to tell them if it's life and safety that is more or less a construction issue but if there's if the per so a lot of times I'll give a TCO and a TCO means a temporary certificate of occupancy because I said listen they didn't put the lights up yet because it's the or they didn't plant the landscape because because of the weather it's it's it's too cold it'll die I said okay post a $10,000 Bond and I'll give you TCO until you plant the Landscaping but if it went before a board it should be ratified by that board that has met all the conditions of that board because they when you go when you agree to the resolution you're agree agreeing to a contract with the board a resolution is actually your agreement and their attorney gets to look at a resolution that you're agreeing you're making a contract with the ten you have agreed to everything within the uh the resolution and whatever is in the resolution if a engineer letter or planner letter with there's comments so when there's a resolution there's supposed to be a resolution compliance letter and that's what I do compliance with the resolution you know that's a that's that's a very interesting thought at the end of the day when we have a uh when we have an applicant before us and they're they're all set that they they've committed to to um performing all these these items prior to getting you know trying to to abide by the resolution I would like to make that statement or some of them from maybe your office should make that statement you know this is a contract with with the with the town that you're you're buying into right now presently let's we can state that in the resolution it's really an agreement I think that's a I think that's a wise thought yeah so I think the word contract means has more meaning than agreement right because really under oath you're agreeing as long as I get this approval I will do x y and z now now the bonding laws have changed because you can only now Bond what's in the public right away you can't bond on site but if they want a TCO they'll always say Victor I can't get the lights in I said well you got to get enough lights in for Public Safety uh for entrance to the building Ingress and egress if you can't get some lights fixtures for the the perimeter of the site I'll give you a TCO until those leg pictures come in and usually that's dated that's months whatever it is and but it's never a permanent Co because Perman we have no recourse right you know yes Steve oh you have to you have to speak I always forget that uh we did an application package you know language for the application package couple months back when we're telling applicants this is what's going to happen step by step all the forms are there and we could add what you're talking about to the application package you know it'll be number 11 or 12 whatever in a longer list exactly no Co until you no Co until you have a resolution compliance letter from your board professional so are you signing off are you reading everything that the building inspector said check that's good no I don't get involved with the building inspector because I'm not a LIC electrician those so how does your Authority outside the building okay the pl show shrubs better be F shrs the pl show a driveway made at a Bel block can't be made out a gravel I'll give a gravel TCO has to be as for final C has to be the drainage has to be storm sew system uh the you know things like the uh the pad was shown in the back of the going remove the remove it sometimes I'll sign off on a relocation of TR the public service mon but I have to sign off on it sometimes the problem with construction departments is they do have turnover for construction code so who was the electrical code official in the beginning of the project a lot of times it's not the electrical 100% correct at the end of the project so a new electrical sub offici hey Transformers there okay signs off he wasn't involved the beginning of the project and the reason why I brought that subject up to all of us is give inside information is for the first time in my history I'm not going to name the town the inspector was but the final inspection came about which is building and he was looking for the fine print on the shower door glass is a temper where and I never ever had that before in my life and I gave him a lot of credit to so that's why a shooting how you yeah I'm not I'm not allowed because you have to be licensed to be inside the building and comment I'm not a LIC construction official I have many friends that are there many friends that are pling officials if I see something outside sidewall that's what I Landscaping is it draining neighbor the neighbor uh we had today zo meeting I told the developer everything has to drain back in your property no moreing off the side back your yes Ste grading is going be a key issue of this anybody can do it shoot some spot grades grade it out if you know what you're doing you don't good very good J yeah when I was working what was common was come before the planning board planning board approves there's a resolution typical and there's a before the vote and before the hearing get a report like we do from someone like Victor uh come to the hearing do you agree to the changes that are in the engineers report yes yes yes if not there's a discussion work that out and and the result is that the appr of ultimate approval is subject to all the things agreed to at the hearing on the record and the report and then the plan has to be changed to incorporate all those things and and what I what I saw many times in in towns before an applicant could go get a a building permit there had to be a site plan set with a stamp on it I call it a stamp a piece of paper that says approved and it's going to be signed by the chair and the secretary after someone in Victor's position would say it's okay to do that okay yeah have to be sealed by the whenever to we done by the engineering officials and when they do come out to the job site if that plan is not available with that seal on it see you later yeah call me back when sh there so it's there now all right we can that we we have sometimes you have the biggest problems with the smallest the largest projects we had the least amount of any project you think we' have thousand problems with besides and magnitude across the street don't yeah because it's done it's done by lot of union labor big contractors people knowledgeable people working across the street yeah the mom and pop is I gota all right with that um I think we'll wrap this up tonight unless somebody else has questions or commentary that they would like to include yeah sure worldwide you go anywhere in the United States as I get older I travel me a city that you want to million Boston Tex it's a national problem not a New Jersey self created 100% go name me Miami Florida you can't get a lot for million yeah any nice municipality you want to live has entertain train million Elizabeth iSell million and that's considered anord municipality has a zero housing but we we require 10% in of the plan we require affable housing even though it's not mandated by the state so they still do the right thing over there yes this is National if not worldwide really is I I know I know yeah yeah the million plus yeah ability the national not yeah absolutely all right with that I uh I'll I'll open it up to for an invitation to address the board by anyone but um I don't see anyone here to address the board so seeing them CL oh I I take that back Vinnie okay he's good um okay uh with that um we'll close that portion of the meeting and I'll ask for a motion to adj all those in favor all okay we'll see you on the 11th then uh like next one 11th up the 11th okay