##VIDEO ID:2wh22aL0pRI## record on the yeah okay I should save it to your email okay or the link well no Robert no Robert tonight all the meeting in order then let's start with saying that pledge moment silence I pledge you lead to the flag of the United States of America and to the for stands one nation God indivisible with andice thank you um anyone want to make a motion to approve the agenda second I'll second all in favor say I I oppos motion carried all right we'll get right into the uh earned sick and safe good evening everyone hello it's good to see everyone again um I'm Sheila Huber from the Minnesota Valley Council of governments with me our new program administrator Victoria pots um so we're here tonight just to kind of really help inform and educate the whole new Minnesota state statute for employee sick and safe um I have a h presentation that it's I'll briefly go through it but at least I'm not going to touch on everything um but at least you got that kind of you can go back and read through some of those highlights um if there's definitely questions afterwards feel free to email um we certainly can kind of walk through but um we've talked been talking with Sue a little bit more about um policies what what does this new state statute really what changes what things that you guys have to maybe make some decisions about um with in regards to those changes and in regards to your current policies when it comes to paid leave so um I'm sure you've heard there's a lot of Buzz about this particular uh new state statute it does go effective January 1 uh of 2024 so require ments uh by the end of the year uh by January 1 doesn't there does seem to be a notification that goes out to um all staff um so that's the first probably and foremost uh that notification but before that comes there's some decisions that you guys are going to have to make from a policy standpoint um what is this current policies um what additional things do you need to be thinking about um what this new law is basically basically stating is that every employer if you have more one or more employees um there were required provide at um at minimum one hour for every 30 hours of actual work time for a in a sense um sickly for themselves um for their spouse there's a list um of any of and it's basically immediate family and it's not just household family its aunts its uncles its nieces its nephews um it actually happens to also be that one person that you want to designate for the year to be able to use this leave for for sick leave for that type of Health you know type um scenario for safety leave um let's say there's a domestic abuse um anything that there's that that that kind of that bucket is under safety um the other component is also for closure and closure would be uh time off let's say that there's a snowstorm um weather related and that weather related now closes school um we have they have to be able to utilize this Bank of ours uh for that purpose um it's also for a sense pandemic um if there is a contagious component that's where the medical comes in where if if that particular employee is in a potential contagious State they can use this time for that so there's a few things to be considering when it comes to this particular um program um one it is a job protected Le um we a lot of States uh statues that are specific protective leave like pregnancy um you know birth parenting so there are some things and some requirements this is one of those kind of where it's no retaliation of any sort um they if they take the time off utilizing this leave it is also um they can come back and do their job you can't fire them because they took the time off to do this um so there's there's those that protections that you know basically help that employee to make sure that they can take the time off that they need um there's PID status um all of that is they it's making sure that they're getting the same pay as if uh they're working um or if they would be taking other time off uh but it's making sure that they're you're not paying them a lesser amount uh during this time frame so when we look at this particular law uh so starting January 1 okay we've got um anybody that would be working more than 80 hours in a year um and I will PR a preface this as we get into in a sense your volunteer fire um yourselves um your technically all employees because you get paid through a W2 um so we have to walk through what are those particularly required requirements it's seasonal employees it's temporary employees anybody that would work put in 80 hours in a year is aable for these these hours to accumulate so right now you have a PTO program uh PTO you can take time off um what when I've been reviewing your particular Uh current policy you're close to meeting the State statue um with that particular program how ever there's some things that would have to change so you where the decisions would lie for you is in a couple different areas um the state statute does um specifically talk about it can be a PTO program vacation sick or just a PTO program as long as it meets the requirements of the state statute and as if I review yours there's a few things in there that would have to be adjusted if you took your current PTO program and turned it into um the the requirements um of this new statute so and we'll kind of talk through some of that um your other alternative is to consider following the state statute 100% And it's you're the only you're using those particular hours that they're recruting at that one hour for every 30 um for the the all the key pieces that they say that it's supposed to be used for um your PTO program right now basically says you can use the time for whatever you want that's what meets that requirement because there's no limitation to what you can use it for um where your limitation or where the things that don't come into play is um first and foremost your very first year of employment here doesn't meet the requirements of one hour for every 30 hours work um the other component is uh the rollover you currently have um in there where um employees will be allowed to carry over a Max of 40 hours of PTO for the first two months into the following year then PTO will be paid out that doesn't meet the requirements um you the requirements are that you um you have to allow at least 80 hours roll over uh to the next year it is not paid out they would they potentially could have 80 hours in their bank at any given time um so there are some pieces that we would want to potentially look at um the alternative is leave your PTO program alone but what that does require is now having a sick and safe time bank that is meeting the State statue so it's kind of giving them a sick Bank um meeting that statue and then leaving PTO alone they can use PTO for whatever they want um requirements from a and I you're on banion correct or I've been talking to other jurisdictions that have Bion what I'm hearing from Banyon is that um the system would it the system isn't able to actually track the 30 hours and give you one hour my understanding is what they're recommending is that you set up the system to acrew you it's the conversion of it is point 033 for every hour worked and so yeah they may have 20 hours in that week and they may end up getting um those hours they may not hit the 30 but they're still meeting that threshold it's cumulative um so they might not get 20 but they're actually what you're you're going above and beyond you're actually giving them to sooner versus hitting that 30 threshold um so there are some capabilities that could be done within Banyon uh to make that happen um the one thing that I would caution and pause a little bit on is that that this is a protected leave now I think from your current PTO program you have U Max acrs depending on years of service um all the way up to 176 hours now in this comp you know if you look at what state statute says is only 80 hours are job protected that's that's the minimum that's the minimum requirement if you were just to say hey I'm going to turn over our PTO program 176 hours is job protected so You' really want to kind of think about what is that risk factor does that matter um it might not matter um you know it's so those are some of those questions that you know you want to discuss and kind of figure out you know what is of the benefit Sheila what do you mean when you're saying job protected the believe is job protected meaning um you can't terminate somebody because they've taken that to the you have to continue to keep their health insurance as if they're still working okay um so all their benefits stay intact U that way so that's where it basically is is you're giving them and you're allowing them the time off um one thing with sick and safe though is that you can't ask questions um unless I take that back you can ask questions um but after a certain threshold so if an employee needs to be out for 3 Days utilizing sick and safe you can go back to the employee to say hey can you provide us documentation well that documentation might be a doctor's note if they can get one but they might not be being medically treated then it's just simply a statement from the employee to say um my time off meets the sick and safe uh requirements period so the reality is is if we really don't care what's the point of asking um you know so it's it's one of those things that's from a a process an administrative standpoint is it really is it more of a burden type thing um the re reality is you can't deny leave uh for taking sick and safe um you could deny your PTO uh but you wouldn't be able to if you turn PS PTO you wouldn't be able to deny um any sense any time off taken for PTO um some of those requirements of um you know how what's that process for requesting time um so there's a lot more Administration that may have to be looked at of what is your procedures when needing to take time off um looks like you've got it where you know they're notifying the um um looks like the Personnel committee when they need to take the time off or in advance well the State statue also says that advance notice um is as reasonable as possible um routinely if it's if it's if you know that it's going to be taking place seven days if you don't know it's reasonable as possible could be that day it could be you know an hour after the shift starts um right so it it's it does really kind of look at um you know what is it that you would want to give your employees as as one a benefit um what are some of those procedures what does that really kind of look like um from a separate Bank 48 hours that's what they're acre basically 48 Hours of sick leave um to be able to use for the very specific things that are in the state statute use it for whatever they want but follow your same procedures um one other piece that uh is not from your uh current policy a full-time employee cannot use PTO unless successfully completion of one month of service with the city with with second can say um as soon as they earn it they can use it it doesn't there isn't not that threshold um so that's one component that would have to be adjusted um with with uh just switching to PTO to now include you wouldn't have to call it sick and safe because it's meeting that PTO program is meeting the requirements as long as it meets all the requirements um you are giving an added benefit a higher benefit than what is required by state um but the the one piece of it that would probably have to change is the zero to one year um zero to one year you're giving 40 hours five days it's basically one and a half hours per pay period That's too low um it doesn't meet the state statute now you could simply just change and go the next level is zero to four years and that's 46154 per pay period that meets the requirement um that's full-time staff okay when we we have to look at now part-time seasonal paid on Call of volunteers we'll talk a little bit about how your volunteer program works um that would be different that would you would totally want to follow the State statue it is a part-time sick and safely Bank um that is auring one hour for every 30 hours they work or in banan's case it's 03 for every hour hour they work U but you will need to have an actual policy for your like part-time staff uh that you would have temporary seasonal that will just be for the sick and safe correct right or the safe and sick yep y so okay e for an ease of use if you were to decide to leave PTO alone add a sick and safe you're adding a sick and safe for um in a sense everybody all employees are going to receive sick and safe and they're all going to be treated the same um how many seasonals part-time do you usually have a year one or two from what I've kind of seen okay and with those um one of the things that's the PE that's so the sick and safe doesn't get paid out um it is there as long as you're accumulating it by The Hours worked um you never have to pay it out it is only there to be used so if if an if a part-timer leaves or seasonal leaves they're not taking it with them however if they come back to work within 180 days that you can't get rid of what they earned the previous year they're starting up with that same bank if they are if they're not coming back to work and it's been more than 180 days well now you can WIP it out and start over fresh but if they're coming back to work within 180 days they pick up where they left off so that's a part of the statue as well so how does that work now like with the fire department um they not they're not kept track of by the hour right or we need to start or us us so um let me ask a couple questions how are you do they get a stien that paid your volunteer they get they get so much per call I don't remember what the amount is but they get so much per call so much for per meeting so much per drill so they're getting kind of a stien for everything that they're doing they paid on yearly basis yes well yeah I mean once a year they get it okay yep at the end of the year at the end of the year so um what do you think that they probably make more than $600 yes yes okay so then they are technically paid on call in a sense um there is a from an flsa standpoint fairly standards act there is one of the requirements they're either a volunteer a true volunteer department or they're a payon call Department y well if they're a true volunteer they're not an employee right in your case and typically what they say is nominal fee if they're paid a nominal fee what what guidance tax law kind of states is if it's $600 or less is a nominal fee okay in this case we have to consider them a paidon call so what we're hearing from a guidance standpoint for them um they may not track their hours however um what you can do part of the law is that um you are required to notify those particular employees um technically for sure on a monthly basis um it's usually on their paychecks well when they only get paid on an annual basis it's you have to give them more than a year so you have to notify them in a sense on a monthly minimum of a monthly basis to say here's how much um you have earned in sick and sife say here's how you've used it this is now the bigger question so if they're on a monthly basis I'm assuming chief of Chief uh fire chief is kind of they have do they have how are they tracking their actual Commodities or what we call Commodities or statement per call is there documentation on a monthly basis or how do that actually kind of play we've got a sheet that whoever makes the call you marked at you were at the call okay that's so one thing that I would say not everybody's there every call you're it's yep a paper do you think that they work they could potentially between trainings and calls could they work more than 80 hours a month a year oh yeah oh yeah okay oh yeah all right so they're gonna meet that threshold yeah so what we're hearing from guidance standpoint so far I know the league of Minnesota cities has really gone after the uh Department of Labor and Industry to really kind of now we're kind of lumping these guys into it how are we supposed to track when it is um on that per call basis well what we're hearing um to be safe you're if you were to take um that that sheet um you kind of know the hours of the call um you know when you've been called out you know when you've cleared and it's almost like you would want to track who's on that call um call in call out you've got that information there's your hours worked you know when they're coming in for training that training you know how long they spent there doing that training so you're almost creating a time sheet in a sense just to track their hours on a monthly basis so depending and I'm you know depending on that process it's going to be a new process and it's going to have to be done it's it's taking those in a sense those monthly tally sheets whether it's turning them into Sue um to kind of track how many hours they've actually worked and then determine how many hours that they get their notification needs to happen because they don't have a pay stub their notification in a sense has to come back to them in an email to say hey this month you have these this number of hours in sick and safe okay that's great that's that's the process of how they could potentially acrew it but how do they use it and why do they use it because because they have to meet minimum requirements for training a year okay do they get in sense hey I couldn't make training do they have to make it up or I don't need to make it up but I need to make sure that um I'm meeting by the end of the year I've got to meet you know 50% of the trainings are there are there requirements within your your policies and procedure manuals whether it's your bylaws or whatever it is that the fire has um um that we'd want to look at are they can't be disciplined they can't be discriminated they could technically use sick and safe hours for any of those calls if they didn't make the call and technically still be paid but then how would you pay them if you don't know what the hourly wages so you're not really what you're doing is so let's say they get for um let's say they're they go out on a call and ever come $40 for the call doesn't matter how many hours if they didn't make that call whatever that call was in total hours that's how many hours that would be subtracted from their sick and save so they would get that $40 or whatever but they would lose their four hours over corre yes okay so they would have to come and say hey I yep yeah so it's more nightmare well it kind of is for us for you absolutely and so it does it's really looking at those procedures that have to take place within that fire process same goes for you guys you know you how many meetings a month you have just on Council one scheduled and then but we've had a lot of special meetings this year probably meeting twice a month say probably had 40 meetings this year 4050 yeah minimum of two you um do you have any other like parks and rack meetings do you have do you sit on any other yeah do you get statement for those well we just get a regular special meeting okay hey what I don't know what it is 50 I think like like like the meetings that we had with the code group right oh yes I I actually that all counts for me as a meeting so you'd want probably maybe run some reports to look at how many hours are truly spent do you meet that 80 hour threshold you might in a year but you might not in another year right yeah so it's really looking at um kind of the same thing goes for you guys is are you tracking those hours spent even though you get a stien do you get a stien for every single meeting you're not getting just a monthly monthly stien no matter what an annual but if there's a a special meeting like tonight y this is an extra meeting this is an extra meeting so then you get a stien for tonight but you get an annual in a cense salary okay is that paid on a monthly basis or is that paid annually all the end of the year all at the end of the year okay so the reality is is you guys are going to end up being the same as the as your fire it's tracking it a little differently the reality though is at the end of the year I don't know what you're still getting your at same pay yeah you have a state statute requirement that says you have to meet so many meetings otherwise you don't get you know otherwise you're kind of off well so for you guys to use sick and safe it doesn't really matter however on that special meeting it might if something happens where you are now sick or you can't be there because it meets the sick and safe requirements you could still potentially get that because you were meant to be there but we'd have to put in 80 hours a year yes that's that's quite a few hours it is quite it is quite a few hours and it might be something to look at to determine what is you know if we take this year you think that even this year seems like there's been probably a lot of meetings yeah there have been what you know and if you take an average of how many hours those special meetings are does that really meet the requirement of 80 yeah I don't know if we've hit 80 yeah I doubt if we've hit 80 I would kind of you might have the time because we had all those extra ordinance meetings we maybe yeah you possibly could here it's it's really look now keeping in mind it might be good it would be good right now for going into the first of the year to just track your hours yeah yeah if you hit 80 now you go back to day one of what those total hours were you hit 80 hours you're now getting that you know you're one and you know one and a half almost or two hours two and a half hours of sick and safe are you GNA use it right but if you're tracking your hours and you're you're seeing that report of how many hours you've actually had it's might using next year is more your pilot year of let's really kind of track that a little bit let's see what this really means um you know it's and keep in mind it's 80 hours in a year so January to December or whatever you guys decide as your your year I would try to make it a static year um January is always that simplest it's probably on your budget yeah um you know those are all that doesn't change so you're in a sense December 31st comes how many hours do you have you can roll over up to maximum of 80 after that if you know and you're never going to earn more than 80 um now another way to actually handle it is to frontload 80 so every January one you give 80 hours immediately into your sick and safe bank that may be another alternative from your fire your front load 80 they don't get paid out it's just our sitting there however you may have a fire and in January they now got 80 hours and they're going to get that however they probably haven't even put in you know anytime they may have only gotten 20 hours they they're not they don't have anything there so if you're going to track the hours I would track the hours based off of the one for every 30 it limits you a little bit more um but if you frontload 80 hours you could end up having somebody take it GNA take the first two months off um from a fire you know so y CAU y on that one you could frontload 48 which is a requirement for the year however if whatever they have at the end of here if they have 48 El so I would not do that because that is g to affect your budget don't really affect your bottom line budget so then the next question is what number do you associate with the number of hours if they get a sick and safe yeah or if we get a sick and safe what number do you associate with that I mean let's say that I end up taking four hours of sick and safe Y what is that times um it's going to be based off of whatever your so like Sue is based on her hourly rate right yeah for you guys it's based on your stien so let's say you've got a special meeting that you can't attend and that special meeting actually was two hours you might know you might not know how many hours you need to take until you know that what the duration of that meeting was that everybody else was here for so if it was it end up being a three-hour meeting and you weren't here for that you're po using three hours of sick and safe okay um times what number whatever your monthly whatever that stien is so if you get oh $50 for that for that meeting oh it's based on that but you you would have used three hours of the sick and safe yes yeah so it' be $25 an hour if you used to got it oh okay okay but for you guys it's not based on hour it's based on stien stien yep yeah yeah so as a gambling manager okay has nothing new it's through the fire department too there's two of us that they require you have to Y so I'm in turn going to have to do that too yep but there's no set hours there's nights I could spend five hours of book work then it might be three days of only an hour night so I'm G have to sit and keep you're gonna have to track those hours now might be retiring here here's the the the simple we can't make this too complicated as a small jurisdiction you can only do what you can do um you have to submit something to the state monthly or okay here's your risk factor if someone feels that they are not gaining or getting and the city is not providing them the opportunity to take sick and safe if there's a complaint to Department of Labor and Industry from State they can come down now audit you and determine are you in compliance or not the reality is is for one from the State statue is is even if they say hey you know what you need to do this better okay we're going to do this better we can only do what we can do and we're we're trying um we're we're doing the best we can with the information that you have um yes we will do better help us what do we need to do differently there is a there's basically a time frame I think they give you I think it's you've got to go be in compliance within so many years after an audit two two years so this isn't uh oh my gosh somebody's gonna come down and you know put the hammer to us this is as long as you are working through what is the best that you can possibly do you know it it's you're trying could you physically write a letter up stating that always stated that you you want to opt out of it yourself you can't do that no well it's just know two of us and we're both on the fire department by law you have to be on right you know that's why it it's it's technically those hours work now do I also think you're going to go up to the Department of Labor and you're not come on you're not no I don't think you're gonna I I'm the one that's gon to have to do it all right that's why I just or whoever the president is obviously we're not going to take it just because the reality is is it is any sense a volunteer program it's always going to be a volunteer program are there hours worked yes are you a small jurisdiction that you need people to volunteer to do this absolutely you do um so it it's not a full-time job for them I think the intent of this statue is I I understand from when you've got employees that are truly working for companies and organizations yeah it's it's there as be able to have that time off they made the law but they didn't think it all the way through do you know I know that there's been a lot of questions um you know for the for a while we all thought that what a PTO program wasn't going to now we're seeing frequently asked questions that now Department of Labor and Industry is really trying to put out they're clarifying things and so it's more just recently to understand that technically a PTO program does work as long as it meets or exceeds the minimum requirements that the statute puts so it you know that's where I think for for all of you is to what do you want to do you've got two employees fulltime employes yeah okay so what does that look like when you've got two full-time employees you also know that the work still has to be done it's you know to take that time off that work's still sitting there you know it it's is it going to be it seems like administratively it's probably going to be more burdensome to small jurisdictions than it would be just to actually implement it and have people going all the time um I don't think you have the staff that are going to think that to say hey I've gotten all these hours and I'm you know they're olded to me I'm going to go take that time off um there's a bigger purpose here um you know so it's it is really kind of looking at what is in the best interest administratively the ease um at the same time is is just ensuring that you are giving employees the time off that they need to be able to handle any of those particular requirements so I do have so um say we have a volunteer firefighter after two years he's been on the SI sick and save and he moves and he has to leave good Thunder for whatever reason he leaves the fire department yep so that bank then does that get paid out no it never we don't have to worry about funding and paying that at the end or like one of us we leave after our term right it just disappears it just disappears okay yep there is no As Long as You Follow the you're accumulating that one hour forever the only one that becomes a liability is if you because there's three options to choose and you you lay this out in policy and it can be different for pay on call your your your volunteers it can be different for you it can be different for your full-time staff it can be different for your your part-time staff so you can designate but there's three options one is is one you you're accumulating one for every 30 hours of of work two is is lump some 48 hours into the bank or the 80 hours lumpsum into the bank the only one that gives you an actual cash liability is that second one lump some 48 Hours yeah so I'd eliminate that and look at do you lump some 80 just to forget the whole occurring of hours because that's probably the simplest you wouldn't have to worry about tracking your hours worked your lumps summing it the same time is is then how do you use it how do you allow them to use it what are they using it for um versus you know full-time staff it might 80s per year 80s per year yeah now if they never touch it that 80 stays there you're Never Gonna Keep accumulating that it's it's 80 all year round and that's it worse you'd have to pay somebody would be 80 hours in one year yeah it I mean somebody if somebody somebody pushed the issue you would end let's say you've got a firefighter that's going to push the issue never shows up and wants to use all 80 hours for calls that they didn't go on technically are you asking they have to be able to submit a report submit to say to sue to say hey I'm tracking this I'm I'm using sick and safe for this particular call there what it is at the end of the year that call is a call that they actually went on but didn't go on because they're now getting PA for it well as a fire that would probably be the easiest way for us I would think it' be the easiest way for everything think about it I by them we don't have to track anything you don't have to track anything I mean everything would be I just is where you're tracking it is on a monthly basis you know basically Sue you're kind of setting up a spreadsheet that says these are all the people these are the hours that they've got um these are the hours that they've requested it's that procedure that you have to kind of come up with is how do they request to use hours right um okay we can come up with that but then on a monthly basis she's basically sending out to all of those to say here's your hours for the month here's what you have for sick and safe to potentially 80 hours a year okay for use for use okay yep but it never has to be paid out your liability now is technically and this is where I would look at it's probably more on your fire side because if they missed that call anyway they wouldn't be paid right now do you give them a grace period to say like let's say training they're required to let's say 75% of their training has to be completed in a year they could make it up they miss maybe January okay now they're going to go to February March April and maybe they miss July um you know so but at the same time what does that look like from an hour standpoint what you're probably going to have to do is track actually how many hours we truly spent in training how many hours were spent in on a call but you kind of know you're GNA know that and document that anyway even even front loading to 80 yeah you're gonna because when that person says hey I missed that call I I I had a sick kid at home um they could turn around in and say Hey I want to use sick and safe for that yeah but in order for Sue to knock off the number of hours she's gonna need to know how long that fire call was right oh I see you see what I mean G know how long that training was how many hours spent they'll still be some tracking so yeah something as simple as a little if if a if an employee makes a request for it as you described and then so the chief then would just have have to have some sort of a little way of delivering that information to sue to S yep for that one yep request y you're either pretty simple or you're tracking at the end you're kind of even tracking both you do the 80 you're always tracking at the end you're always tracking what so then what is the you'd have to have a policy then for how long prior or after the call yes that that firefighter who said he didn't want to go he has then to say wait a minute here I couldn't make that one because I had a sick child or I was sick y you can't wait till six months later correct so is there a is we you want to anything oh so there is nothing like that create we have to create that you have to so what I'm kind of gathering through all this it be probably smarter for us just keep our leave policy as is what we have for our PTO and then just come up with a sick or save and sick policy policy and then basically it's going to be four categories our employees our part-time employees our firefighters and Council yep right yep and we would be covered we'll just have to that'll take some meat and potatoes to get through but little bit you know I think from you really want to I would agree I think for you guys and for your your your fir Fighters I would either really do the front load because one it's less of a nightmare from an a tracking mechanism right um it's and then come up with that procedure of how do they use it what's that procedure utilizing they have to notify you they've got to be able to and it shouldn't be you know six months later oh yeah I remember that call I didn't make that call because no it should be as reasonable possible within that month or whatever in a sense it should be at least a you know even a week following period so I we have a PTO request right now or probably we could incorporate that for the firefighters too or come up with form we can use as PTO for Sue and race but then we also can have the sick and safe Incorporated in there somehow and that could be used then by the firefighters too because we we would have to have some documentation probably both of our Auditors if we're going to pay it you know so yep okay you know from a full-time standpoint um if you wanted to front load everybody that gives your front your full time already having that those 80 hours of sick you know the ability to use sick and safe um or you change and they're they're acing on that per you know that per hour basis um that's from a standpoint it's really kind of from a Bion standpoint is it more administrative work um it does need to show up on their pay stubs on their bi-week that you get paid uh biweekly biweekly so it's got to show up on their bi-weekly pay stub so it's still got to be in bin um it's still going to end up probably being in banion for fire because at the end of the year you're also want to even though they're still going to need it on a monthly basis to know where they're at um the Bal the leave balance has got to be in banion oh Lord How's that gonna work I already called I called Bion yesterday or a couple days ago because I wanted to know why holiday was never entered in there they didn't know so I put the holiday in there now so we don't have to add it onto your regular and then she was explaining um the earn sick and safe too on how they were how they would set it up and so it just be another control just another control yep on there yeah yeah oh boy so it wasn't as scary after I talk to her good I mean I was a lot more Edy with it but would you talk to Peggy no um it doesn't matter I pie Peggy I don't know she had a dead mouse on her desk that's all I know I screamed for her she did I did yeah so it was a video call no no she all a sudden went oh a Ted Mouse and I screamed and I looked and she goes no I have one on my desk okay that's happened to me before I'd have been on the no no I just happened to be in a water bottle oh after you're drinking a day no no no I no I wouldn't be back in that office if there was a dead mouse in there I guarantee you not oh my okay would you have any idea we got to look at this now from the accounting side from our auditor or accountant is the state going to make us re uh um show this as an encumbrance to the city like like like a an expense to the city per year so that all of a sudden we're going to have another $60,000 expense that's going to be shown that's going to be a question for your auditor from from what you're saying so far I would say no because you said if if we even if we frontload the 80 hours for everybody there's no liability until it's used and it would just become basically a PTO of not a PTO it'll be an hourly rate like for sewer race or anybody part-time or for us it would be a one-time meeting payment Y and for the firefighters a one-time um fire call payment the reason I asked that question you know is in the relief Association the state makes you look at it worst case scenario you know so I mean if there's a um in case everybody dies there has to be enough coverage in that relief Association to pay everybody out if they're not going to look at this the same way so that they're going to just think that everybody's going to take every hour they can y so and I know that there has been a lot of questions raised from the relief Association how does this relate and and figure out um we haven't gotten the final determination on that um helped me kind of walk through when it comes to the relief Association the end of the year you're paying into the relief Association is it based off of the per call is it just per per person Lum y yeah it doesn't matter what they it's not based off of their actual yeah time spent is just if they're if they're on the roster that're there's 10 people on Department it's it goes into the relief so I think there's there's more to come on that um I don't know if it's just based off a per person I don't know how it would actually relate to the relief Association okay okay now you probably on your um from your finances and the and the budget line you probably have an encumbrance from a PTO standpoint it's a liability that's that's a line I yep yep um yep that's exactly the point yeah y so that that's not going to change from a PTO standpoint because you pay out that that line item that that liability is because you're paying out okay um and there is if if something happens entire city shuts down and you have to yes you do have to have that from an ESS a loan um there's no payouts there's no there is no true liability okay for that as long as it is stated in your policy which I would definitely recommend that is there these hours are not paid out PTO yes that's why I say you may want to you know leave your PT program Alone um yeah I that's I that's the road I would go down so it's it's and and you think about it also is you're giving an added benefit to your employees yes you've got PTO but this is something that's very specific and yes it St and yes your PTO could meet the recommendations or the requirements of the state statute um but at the same time is is it still needs to be changed um can it be tracked for full-time standpoint yes it can be um how it's acred could be you know it's you're only going to with having that per pay period at that high amount um you're meeting that threshold it's more that liability you're you're what is that liability of of protected leave when it comes to your PTO do you need do you want that um does it matter same time as if you leave it just strictly EST it's no more than than 80 hours right so right okay okay doesn't seem like it's that bad to me other than it's going to be a little kind of a curfuffle to get started and get going it will be it's going to take some I think it'll be everybody's group uple you know yes everybody in this state is all in a well I don't know how we're going to do it it makes more sense now though to me than it did the first time we talked about this yeah because I think there's a lot more that's been there's more that's more there's more information now because before it was we had to pay everybody the same no matter what and yeah yeah okay now does it make it kind of makes some sense here now it'll be some figuring out and getting through it but I think it'll be so I think you know if that's the one decision is a separate Bank okay second one is is do you treat everybody at 80 hours and call it good or do you have per hour acels for your full-time staff well I take that back I from your part-time standpoint I would acrw per hour right that one that one I think we have to do um when you have true employees that are tracking hours worked it is far easier to do it that way and Bion can do it um so if you look at it from you guys fire 80 hours dumped in but your actual hourly employees that are getting paid bi-weekly put those into that process of one hour for every 30 hours work yeah and continue to accumulate that and just follow State Statute to a te yeah because I don't I don't think Bob day um even hit 80 hours mowing this summer because it was so dry I agree yeah yeah I mean for him and you would definitely want to make sure if you've got those type of employees that you kind of go I don't know if they're ever GNA hit 80 well track it yeah but they don't get it until they hit 80 right but then you got to back it in and you're backing in to say oh yeah okay y they made it now we gotta go forward with that yep so that 80 stays year after year it never accumulates the next year it's 160 it's because what happens is when you're accumulating so for example next year 2024 Su um earns and gets 48 Hours she may hit that and get 48 Hours by probably July um so she's hit that now she's not AC crewing anymore now but let's say she doesn't use any of those hours next year January 1 comes those 48 hours are going to roll and now she's GNA start AC crewing again to 48 or to actually probably 30 six um hit 80 if she's not used however if she's used she's still gonna make sure her cap in that annual is still gonna be 48 Hours earned but let's say now she's got 80 hours 2026 comes in she's got 80 hours that she's rolled forward she's not acre yeah until she starts using yeah so you have an annual acral Max of 48 but an overall Bank Max of 80 okay and you have yeah yeah if we set it up that way You' have to approve that yes you have to generate that y okay y so I would recommendation Wise from your actual hourly bi-weekly employees I would acrew per hour um and that was that 0333 yeah okay 033 for for every hour work 033 yeah y okay yeah main thing is that we just have the records correct and even like the player and us we just have to be sure that in our meeting like this meeting tonight you just have to be sure that you have some sort of a sheet that's all ready to go you just everybody's populated and the way you go you know you know and knowing that um if you've got a fire call or if you got training you know the people that aren't there are you expecting or would you know it shouldn't be your responsibility to reach out to them they should be reached out but you know that are you going to be expecting a call are you expecting you know that form to be turned in maybe um you know maybe I mean I could see there there could be an opportunity y even on the volunteer side MH um always that one person it just depends yeah you know this it does kind of open it up to the wrong person and that's you know people always hate the idea that you know it's a good old bo club and all that but you know you got to know the people you're putting on that's right y maybe not be fair but life isn't fair but you know it's not you do have to kind of know um I think if you go in you know and this is a a process where you're sitting down with the entire in the next training episode or training session or you're talking with him to say hey this is a policy however keep in mind we would expect you to still be here you know nothing is changing on on how you show up to a call how you show up to training there is still that expectation um we're doing this because this is no state law yeah right you know we have high integrity for this entire department to be here for for this community you know you would hope that they're not going to line their pocket in any sense it's going to be so small amount too you know you you apply the per hour and all that like us we get a STI on the $20 per call for there for two minutes or 20 hours right so if you're there only 15 minutes you're going to get what couple pennies yeah it yeah yeah that's an amazing it's such a little amount it's such a little amount you know it's just really more if we just frontload to 80 then we don't have to go through all of this paperwork and right other than what we're doing you're already keeping track of the I know you guys are you know the training and all that's all in there the only thing that you're not doing is your your hours and Phill's hours yeah so like the chief hours whatever those hours are you're not tracking those right when I do my unemployment thing they ask we yeah I put one at 15 and mine per month that's 90 even though it's probably way more than that because I'm I'm not sitting on a piece of paper writing down writing down exactly how many time how long you've spent so it stays the same there yeah it would be the same for the chief I mean he has have to come to some personal agreement that it's so much a month is what he spends on what he's doing just put that in yep so then that's something once we get a policy written on this too then that's going to have to be shared with all the firefighters for them to see them too correct y are there any samples out there like sample fire policies sample fire we're trying to we've got a couple other cities where we're going to be working on drafting some that they're the same as yours um yeah I mean I think it'd be interesting to kind of start why reinvent the wheel everywhere absolutely right you know Y and even even even here you know dollar amount or yeah depends on what per call or whatever that's one we're GNA have to tweak tweak yeah and I it would be nice even for Council and all of all of this you know to have some sort of sample policy yep so we I mean we definitely can work and and kind of work with with Sue on trying to craft um some of that it's more on those procedures of um that we may have to get detail about you know you would want in that policy here's what they were crewing it's 80 hours you know we put in there that they January 1 they would get 80 hours to begin with front loaded um but now it's how do you use it and so those are some of those procedures that we may have to kind of work through work with the chief work with you know whatever you know type of information so that it is very clear um you would want to make sure that it's going to be clear enough for all of them to understand now you're probably going to get them to go and really care right and then you're gonna get some Go I mean there it does yeah definitely so on another note within that packet that I've given you um and this is just also going to be food for thought we have time thank goodness for this but January 1 of 2026 we now have paid family medical leave that kicks in from the state so there's time with that but what that means is um now employees that are going to actually um for all wages they're paying a percentage the city is paying a percentage of those girls wages to the state just like um Social Security it's another tax just like Social Security just like Medicare it is another tax um you will have a liability with that yeah so something to be kind of keeping on the Forefront and and knowing that also means is yes it's not coming out of when they're actually utilizing Paid Family Leave um they're not being paid a salary here they are from the state but that also means you don't have staff so but it's just it's something that you're going to be having to consider when it comes to budgeting and thinking about in the future that um you're going to have an extra tax sure any idea what that percentage is going to be well right now it is 0.7% of what would be your social security income 07 I mean is it 7% or 07 to 1% 07 to 1% okay okay um now that's your the city's liability is actually half of that minimum you can choose as an organization to pay it as a whole or it is shared with the employee oh okay yeah pretty minimal pretty small small it is it is pretty small um however I wouldn't guarantee I've heard that by the time this actually goes into play in 2026 that it it's already being increased oh I'm sure they can increase it they when they increase it it has to be increased but or the notific a for an increase has to be given by July of the must be the previous or the year yeah because and and that was something that the league really pushed because that's when budgets are being created is in the summer they you need to know that um so that is that is one thing that at least we will know that um so it'll be like on a quarterly basis yes yep yep when we pay state taxes um for withholding taxes that's being paid to the state at the same time that will be a line item on there yep okay yep so you're talking $70 per 100,000 is what our liability would be uh yeah it's probably about right yeah okay I just want to be sure I got the right numbers okay so that's pretty it really is a minimum amount it is a minimum amount yeah yeah at this point maybe it'll be a percent or something who knows but but it's I mean it's definitely those are the two new statutes that just or approved if you make a 100 Grand our cost would be 70 bucks or if we pay it all or half that know I'm saying as a as the department it's going to be a buck or two it mean minimal yeah we you like the way is running now like 25 so it' be like a fourth of that which would be 30 bucks or 20 for the whole year yeah yeah that's really thing it's going to be more tracking and the paperwork involved yes yeah that they probably will keep track of and slap your hand if you don't do it right correct y y y they want their money yep anything to get more money yes yeah yeah yeah just look at the employers out there okay yeah 70 bucks a pop or whatever 100 bucks pop all right okay steps is really work the policies um presenting them back kind of heard some of your wishes that will be we can present some of those policies and and yeah take it back for approval it seems like quite a a lot to get your head wrapped around but I don't know Sue can do it you have faith so does will our policy have to be just approved through Council yes yeah I mean the state or the league no it's just you guys okay you guys are approving and I you know we're I know we we're taking a look at your full Personnel policies um there are some new statutes that need to be added um it's just more because it's the the state law changed from it used to be a lot of different policies it was 20 or more employees now it's one or more employees we've got to make sure that those are added into State Statute or into the personal policy so those a few things um you know juneth for the holiday um you know some little minor tweaks that would have to um but you know those are things that we can review look at um add in but then we would kind of create an embed within this new second stage policy and you're already looking at all those y all right so we don't have to do anything with that then policy we want especially for us they got to do it within a week yeah you'll have to decide how you want to do that with your firefighters if they have a week to say hey I want to we'll probably need to have something with Phil and sit down with Phil sit down with them yeah so just so y we're all in same you can kind of decide then how they want if they want to give them three days to do it a week to do it however yep but it would need to be timely yeah no more than a week no more than no more than a week a week could be okay but I mean yeah no more than that because yeah I mean I can't oh and that too I right if do that you're not going to go cut them a check for say $ two it'll go at the end of the end of the years it's counted towards their total sien at the end of the year okay yep just it's it's oh interest yeah okay so it does there there's the impetus to make all the meetings drills and call right that makes their stien at the end of the year hire to which this number is applied to correct got it yeah oh I missed something here say what so firefighter a for example makes half everything and he gets $500 check at the end of the year well his hours we're talking about are applied to the 500 bucks whereas firefighter B makes everything and he makes $1,200 it okay okay so the same I mean if they took the same number of hours off through the year you know his would he'd get more do you have um so is it more of a is it kind of a collective total every on every call out they get you get 20 bucks the end of the year they make 50 calls yeah they get paid 20 so it's not based off is it anything based off service it's just straight you get this amount for coming to we keep a running total of while we got a sheet and everybody they Mark sign their name on the call and at the end of the year and drills and drills and meetings and meeting and any any drill I mean whether it's local or in man or training you know like this year we'll have more because the first responder training and another so there's never s right yeah but it's still 20 bucks you know per drill I mean it could be an all day drill but it's still 20 bucks bucks we can be there 15 minutes or we might be there nine hours get no matter what it's still G be 20 bucks the hours that they're tracking from hours that are being spent out of that bank they might only get 20 bucks it could be a call that now is tracked that you've got your call times you got that number of hours spent on that particular call that's the number of hours that are subtracted it still might only be 20 bucks right but it could be a five hour call so now you're losing five hours out of your bank exactly versus sure yeah yeah well like I say Sue's got it we I do think though that we're gonna have to make make some policies you know and establish a protocol of similar to what you do it doesn't matter if it's a 10 15 minute call or it's a five hour call it's 20 bucks you could do the same with what is it count for are you using one hour for you know one hour for every call is it just rounded up to an hour no matter it's oh so it's you're you're basing SST leave based on that same kind of philosophy of is no matter what the call is is it you're going to subtract off one hour yeah or is it you know it's it's really kind of be up to you um it makes it it keeping in mind it's what makes it difficult is the state statute says that it can't be less than minimum wage well these guys aren't making minimum wage anyway no so you do what you can do and that's why we question why would it even I know yeah you know you know you do your best you do you create the policy that is what you think is in the best interest of everybody um to ensure that everybody's at least getting their hours or getting their time and they're not being can't retaliate you can't and that's where we say is well you we want to be a little careful about what it is those hours you you have some legitimacy to say that this this call took this many hours you already know that so we're going to use esst hours to cover those you're still getting your 20 hours because the person that was there spent two hours on the on the call away from and they only got 20 bucks so their time if they weren't there they would have spent two hours so is it hour for hour it might be when your lump Su giving them 80 hours in the bank it's based off of hour for hour that they actually would have spent doing that particular Duty that's what I would say but that would make more sense yeah a SLE hour for hour yeah yeah well you'll work on the policies we'll take a look at them and then we should be able to come up with some sort of decision it'd be easier to see it all on paper absolutely got to digest a lot of this other stuff in there to all the little M jumbo yeah all right anybody else have any more questions what was the other thing you had on the agenda Su the be think was the insurance but um Robert's not here anyway so we can wait okay it was just the um we had talked about at the last meeting about dental I had brought that up oh okay um so I just put it on there but Robert's not here so we can table that till November okay do you have anything else I don't I was so clarifying it's a lot and it seems like it keeps evolving I'm sure it's going to there there's any time that there's when find out there's gonna be a lot of wrinkles in it and they'll yes halfway through the year they're gonna and then they're going to change it yeah know yeah there's a lot of things that have scenarios that have come up that are like what are we what about this scenario oh I never thought of that yeah like what they passed in July and now they're they don't know what to do right you know sure it will a lot okay well well thank you very much for your time yeah you bet yeah thanks for coming out who you do during the meeting I haven't yet do we are we done are you happy someone want make a motion to second that motion all in favor signify saying I I posos motion carried meeting ised thank you thank you