We are live. Okay, great. Well, we will call this meeting, the Grand Marray Planning Commission to order. We are only missing Ben Peters and I assume he's not coming then at this point. >> I thought he was going to come and sit
out, but uh maybe I >> Okay. No, no, no, no big deal. Uh but we'll just uh continue on. Uh we have our agenda before us. The minutes are now attached. those were missing before and we have the um addition for the um
risen variance that we got as well. Um so I would take a motion to approve the agenda. >> So moved, >> second move and a second. All those in favor? >> I >> I All right, great. Um so the Brisen
variance is up first, but seeing that he is not here, but he may come. I'm going to suggest that we flip it and go ahead with the Bullington variance if that will satisfy everybody here. I don't know if we need a motion for that, but this fine is fair.
>> Yes, sir. >> Um, and okay. And with that said, um, would anybody like to come up and speak to us about this fairance request? >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Unless you'd rather
>> Okay. Yeah, sure. >> You can pull up another chair. There's room for two. >> That's right. That's right. We often have two people up there, but go ahead. Just uh say your name. >> Uh Thomas Bolington uh 1585 Tierney Drive, Hastings, Minnesota. Mhm.
>> And uh we are here for um our variance on our lot that we are in the process of purchasing >> um out there on uh Highway 5, I believe, or Highway 7 on Fifth Street, Fifth Avenue. Um and
basically what we were let uh to know from uh Mr. Roth is that we needed a variance uh to be able to construct a property on the um on the lot because it was too skinny. >> Mhm. >> And uh because we're not going to have
municipal sewer, we're having a septic and and a well on the property. >> Yeah. >> And uh so we've attached um the map of that where basically the structure would go as well as the well and the septic that we are um planning
on building. This will be a year-round residence for us um to live here in in Grand Marray. Looking forward to that and uh I stand for any questions. >> All right. Um we did get uh one comment
um that I'll have Patrick read now for us so that we can have that in the record too and then we'll have questions. This comment is from Karen Christensen. My name is Karen Christensen and I live on the property west of proposed
building site and own the vacant lot south of my home. Tom and Churro Bullington are requesting a variance of the minimum lot size requirements for residential property not connected to city sewer. Why are they unable to connect to city
sewer? The lot is 134 feet wide, which is almost half the required amount, and 359 feet deep. And the minimum lot size is 200 ft wide and 350 ft deep.
I have a few concerns to be addressed. The required lot, the required width of the lot size is 200 feet compared to the current compared to the property's current 134 ft. That's a substantial difference between the two. I'm also
concerned about the potential septic tank placement. The land south of my home is designated as deline delineated wetlands. I do not know if the lot is currently designated as delineated wetlands or if a re-evaluation has been
done in the last few years. I've lived here since 2018 and every year the amount of water that accumulates in that wetland area has only increased increased. What used to be a creek turns into a pond and fast growing river when it
rains and in the spring when the snow melts. As for the mound area placement, I'm concerned that the location to my dwelling is a little too close. I know it meets the required distance from property lines and my septic system. My
concern is the is during the building phase. I'm concerned that the use of heavy equipment so close to existing structures could impact the integrity of the asphalt driveway. Possible damage to septic to existing septic and retaining
wall off the garage. problems come up and guarantees cannot be made that my property would not be negatively affected with such a large variance. Thank you for your consideration of my concerns. Sincerely, Karen Christensen,
12:30 West Fifth Street. Okay. Um, and I don't know if uh Mike Roth shared this with you, but looking at the lot dimensions around this property, um, that, uh, for instance, Karen
Christensen right next door is actually just about the same width as this property. Um, and in fact is a little bit uh, and not as deep as this property is. So that's something for your for
your knowledge. Um, >> and when was that built and when did the zoning change? >> Yeah. And and I don't know that answer to that, but >> Okay. >> You know, at least in terms of when we start to think about, sorry, kind of jumping ahead here, but when we're
considering like does it fit into the character of the neighborhood, you know, is this unusual and to what degree is it unusual? And >> well, I know that house I used to babysit when I was 13 years old. So >> So there you go. >> It's It's quite old. >> Okay. So that
>> been there for a while. >> Been there for a while. So the zoning wasn't really >> So that's what I'm wonder. I mean it you have to take that into consideration. >> Yeah, for sure. No, >> change. So >> yes, they certainly do. They certainly do. For sure. Are they hooked up to
Yeah, that's right. You're right. >> We had these zoning. >> Yeah. But anyway, sorry. Uh any questions for for Tom or more more investigation or >> I do have a map of where the wetlands are located in relation to what our
property would be. Um my understanding also is that um you know the wetlands are are pretty well set to the south of where we would be p where we would be building the structure. um and the professional that we had come
out and look at the where the septic mound would be. Um you know, this is something where we want to be a good neighbor. We're new to the community >> and uh we want to be a good neighbor to the Mrs. Christensen very much. And um
so that's you know this is something where if we can determine where the if a septic system can be somewhere somewhere else on the property that would be more agreeable to Mrs. Christensen that would be fine. That'd be acceptable to us.
>> Uh I'm not a septic expert so I'm relying on a septic person to tell me kind of approximately where it would go as well as the well. Um, and our structure could be built elsewhere on the property as well. Um, if I can just
submit for the record where the I what I do is I outline um where the wetlands would be in relation to where our home would be. If I can pass it to Anton outlined in green there.
>> Um, so that's that's kind of where that is. Um and concurrently with that, the question that we have is as you may as you may see from the property
the plant drawing. >> Mhm. >> And if I can show the commissioner. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> So this is the Christensen household here. >> Yep. >> Are you guys moving over here about where I'm sorry?
>> So this is where >> it's a family. So, the Christensen's own this parcel of land right here, >> which is where we would need a right of way variance to have a driveway to access our property here. Otherwise, there's no way we can get on our property
>> without we would be on their property. So, we need just a gravel driveway to get onto our property here. I think 12th Street right away and be able to access it from here. Ours goes all the way down. It's two plats, but basically it's
here. This is the fourth street. >> Y >> and then this here and then this little bit down here. This whole thing would be ours. Um but as you can see from the wetlands, we want to make sure to
preserve the integrity of the wetlands and that's why we had it looked at. >> Um so really it kind of leaves us to about in here where we could actually put the buildings and we just need to be able to access that from here. So,
>> we plan on preserving this and uh making sure it's it just it meets the integrity of the environment. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Very good. >> Okay. >> Who did the wetland do?
>> These guys. >> I have the CK wetland services. Who did the delineation? >> I believe so. Um and our realtor was is unable to be here tonight, but
um I can find out that information for you, but basically it's in one of the emails I've received from her. Um but they were quite familiar with uh the wetland delineation. I believe that might be on Cook County website or
somewhere online where they basically say, "Okay, here's the wetlands in this area." Um, >> so, >> okay, >> but we want we don't want to mess with that at all. So, we're kind of in this little box of where we can build. Um,
and we'll definitely we can definitely take another look at where the septic would be. Um, we plan to do that next year. >> Um, as well as the driveway and the well. >> Okay. >> Um, prior to purchase, prior to actually building the structure.
So >> yeah, but we want to be a good neighbors to the Christensen. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Okay, >> I have a question. So you are working with somebody that's um designed the septic where it should go or
>> correct. Correct. >> And who is that? >> And were there soil borings done? >> Yes. Let's see here. And forgive me for not being prepared to tell you exactly who did this.
>> Okay. >> Um, >> someone that does a lot of these uh projects up here. And let me >> if you bear with me. Oh, um, well drilling information. Uh, McKver. Let's see here. Um,
oh boy. Since we don't have the other person here, I'm going to ask for your patience. >> Oh, yeah. >> Find out exactly who did that for us. >> Um, okay. So, McKver, Don McKver was the the
well kind of where that would go. Um, let me see if that >> just in my email here or Macyver, I'm sorry if that's correct. Okay.
I was just curious. Um my re part of my reason for asking is because >> um then this has to go to the county >> for approval. >> They're going to they'll have to Yeah. I mean we can >> and >> we can say they're the ones and they you
have to >> designate two septic sites and I'm concerned. I mean we might as well know this right now. Are there two sites available on this little piece of land that's already not doesn't meet
requirement size? So, that's just a concern and I wondered who did it and if they told you that. >> Okay. Um, from the best of my recollection here, it looks like Tim Mackey. >> Tim Mackey
>> in Mackie. I didn't know he did that >> in my notes here. And again, I'm just trying to find >> the correct emails that came across. >> So, let me look at that.
>> Not the not the one I was thinking of today. >> Okay. >> Changed businesses. I think though we're just thinking about our own piece of the puzzle though really. >> Well, I think that's potentially part of
why >> I think to me I see when I see like I when you see that >> size requirement called out, right? I mean there's parcels that have been subdivided throughout the county, right? That are
>> an acre and a half, right? properties and they have two septic sites on them, right? Like it it can happen. You can find that. I think um I don't understand why what I understand is like if they're buying
both the lot in question, the 83090010, but also the south side and basically all the way from >> fifth all the way down to third, >> the rightway on third. How come? I mean, isn't that technically
contiguous or not contiguous because the road interrupts it? If it was an alley interrupting it, right? So, if they were to buy the other side of where their driveway is going to go, right? >> If they were to buy at that parcel and the one next to it, that would be that
is considered contiguous one parcel number. So I don't know if the >> uh I see >> I don't know if the road right away the count or the high the city's right >> Mhm. >> property interrupting that. >> Okay. >> Trying to think how that works.
>> Okay. Uh >> they classify it as so right because then all of a sudden now we've got not just right this block right between the seven and fourth. >> Mhm. But we actually have from seven all the way down to third as far as depth
goes. >> And so now what does that do for minimum lot size? Yes, we still might need a variance for the width side of it. >> But then overall >> but then overall and I I don't know. So that's maybe
>> Yeah. And I >> and maybe it doesn't matter but >> So I know >> Yeah. >> So Tim Mackey did the driveway. >> That makes sense. >> Okay. Okay. >> Uh Scott Robinson >> did the septic for us. >> Okay. >> The placement of that and this and this
map that you have attached to your documents. So, >> okay. >> Apologies for the delay there. There's a lot of new names to us. So, we're just >> Oh, yeah. >> trying for sure. Um yeah, I think you know when I because I was curious about like why this size
like how did we come up with these dimensions and so when I was asking about that apparently there there was no concrete like this is why it has to be these dimensions. I couldn't find anything written and I asked Mike about
it and he said he didn't know where that number came from. because he said there are plenty of parcels that are larger than this that you won't won't be able to build on because there won't be you won't have the the kind of delineation you need in terms of having your septic and
everything and there's some that are smaller that you can um so I'm not really sure what the where these dimensions came from. So, in my mind, it seems a little arbitrary. Um,
>> it seems like an odd size because it would almost mean that you'd have to have a full city block. You couldn't own like this, like a half a city block and >> right everything is 135 in width >> or right it might say 134, but I thought
135 is what all of our >> Yeah. So, >> so that I'm not saying we in the remember in the rehash of minimum lot size just for like being able to build, >> right? You would have had to have had I
think a minimum of two city lots >> in order to build, right? Under the old rules. Yeah. When we changed that to be smaller, it actually was sized based on if you own an individual city lot as most of them are laid out at 50 feet or 40 50 feet by 135, you'd be able to hit
that 5,000 square foot number. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> Right. Yeah. >> And so, who knows if this is right something from the boilerplate stuff. >> Yeah. I mean, >> so Oh, you're saying that that
influenced how this became the rule? >> I mean, I think this might just have been something that arbitrary number of because there is really nothing that's 200 wide like that doesn't ex really exist in the city unless you're talking
about somebody that owns >> both sides of an alley, right? Yeah. >> Avenue of facing. >> Yeah. So, I think we might need to fix this one, but you know. >> So, I mean, I I my personally I I guess
I'll just get to it. I don't I don't necessarily see >> I don't I don't see any problems. I mean, obviously, like if you look at what's happening adjacent, right, there's already a house, but then you continue further out seven, north side of seven, like that is the type of
development that is happening. Probably similar size properties. >> Yeah. Um and um clearly residential clearly right I mean it so it fits that like criteria of
what we're trying to assess um my biggest you know it's not you guys my biggest thing is I just hate seeing like city properties like that's that's 10 lots 10 city lots
>> right and that's you know, not without lots of money and lots of leg work and effort. That's 10 houses, right? >> Right. >> Um, and so that that's and again, this is kind of right on the it's on the
outskirts. It isn't like the middle, right? I mean, I've so that's that's more of like a personal like reflection on >> um my my feelings on it. I hate the idea of, you know, it's just like not right.
There is no city utilities there right now. Right. >> Right. So, we'd have to >> Oh, yeah. I mean, I It's It's a major deal. >> Build our own sewer. 800 feet away. >> Yeah. >> Did you 800 ft away? >> 800. >> Do you know that? Cuz I I asked yesterday and I didn't get a number.
>> Oh, I I I asked Mike eventually and said he said it's between 800 and 1,000 depending which way you go. But >> Well, I was looking at the lower lot too though >> because >> Okay, that's >> there's two lots. Well, if you went Yeah. But >> so if you go from >> But now they're running But then now
they're running a thousand feet >> because they there's nothing here. The thing that's below this is the Northern Star or right or Homestead. >> It's it's Homestead right there. >> Okay. >> So I'm like we made we made >> Hamilton's
bring bring it up to here. >> And I'm like well >> Yeah. >> What if you bring it here? >> Yeah. and build here instead of I I was just looking at all the options and that's why >> and I will put on the record one more
time that as a planning commission member it is very difficult at times to make decisions without a map of where our current city utilities are. >> Okay, >> and knowing exactly
>> where things are. So, we have it is in Fourth Street, too. But it's >> Yeah, >> but I don't know where it stops at Fourth Street. >> You You can drive down there and you can drive to the end and there's a fire hydrant. And I'm like, well, does that mean there's sewer here, too? I don't >> I don't know because I don't have a map.
>> Yeah. And I will >> ask the city council again to uh >> get their act together on that. >> Well, just it would be it is helpful, right? I mean, >> we should have a desk >> again. It's it's a different ask than
what you guys are doing, but there is also something to be said of like, well, if you guys are buying all of that and now, you know, you could actually tie into sewer and water and do you do you need an extra 750 ft all the way down to the homestead as yours?
Like, right, like there's a turnover potential in that, right? It's like, yeah, it's going to cost X. I mean, they're not I know they're not giving septics away. Um, right? Those are not an inexpensive. >> We're about $30,000 is what the estimate was for the septic. >> That's >> that's really good. >> Substantial.
>> Oh, that's that's I don't I haven't seen a septic for $30,000 in at least. >> Got to be goldplated or something. I'm not sure, but >> No, I'm saying that's that's half the price of what? >> So, really? Oh, okay. >> Yeah, that's a good one. That's good. Keep >> Yep. Sign that quote.
>> Yeah. All right. Very good. >> I'm worried. >> Very good. No, no, no, no, they won't be. >> And certainly I understand where you're at. I was on Hastings Planning Commission for six years and I absolutely understand you're you're dealing with precedent. It's nothing
about us, right? >> It's it's precedent for the community development uh of your of your city. And um you want to make sure if if you're going to give Tom and Cheryl something um then you know Bob and Susan down the
road are going to get something. And then, you know, it's so you have to set that precedent. Um, I guess, you know, if we if we could tie into this into the sewer, we would uh I don't think we're going to be able to afford 1,000 ft of pipe to be able to do that ourselves,
>> right? >> Um, so I mean, it's it's that. So, in order to use the the property, we need a septic and a well, and we actually and we need the variance for the uh right-of-way driveway. Um, and that's and that's basically it.
You need the variance from the city. >> You shouldn't need a variance past their property because that coming off a seven at that right away. >> That's the city right away. >> Yeah. >> So, you just need >> to be able to build permission >> permission to build that. >> Uh and Mr. Roth indicated that that
there's not an application for that. He just said the builders need to provide a grading plan for the proposed driveway. Okay. >> Yeah. Which is our administrative. >> That's what that was. >> Yeah. Um, so and you know, we're supposed to close on this property next week. Um, so that if you know, if we
need to, and I know that the specs, the people that are current owners have signed the paperwork already. Um, but again, no pressure on on you guys if we need to delay this or if you need to go back and review this again. You know, we
we want to move here. We want to buy this land. uh we want to be members of the community and retire here. So, we're we want to come if you if you let us. >> There we go. >> And we would love to and we want to be a
good neighbor to um Miss Christensen. So, >> for sure. >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> No, I've had my turn. I I'll wait for my second turn. You go ahead. I I I agree that the the measurements
seem arbitrary. Um as far as the character of the the neighborhood is concerned, I'm guessing from what we've been talking about needing 1,000 ft of pipe that the other houses around them are also not connected to the city, >> right? >> They have septic systems of their own.
Um I see no reason not to extend that to new people. um based off of a rule we can't comprehend. >> Okay. Is is that a motion you're making? >> Okay. >> Uh not quite yet. I want to know first.
>> Thank you. Cuz I I need two times >> discussion after motion, but okay. >> And this is not personal to you and I welcome you to our community. But >> my >> Yeah. No. >> Other concern is not only is it >> on this one? >> Yes.
>> Where is it? >> This piece when you look. So, this is >> I'm going to have to go over >> there's all of these lots >> in between. Guess what? Next week, it's next month, month after.
And where's that point where we say this doesn't make sense and we're not supporting our goal of developing more housing because we're going to make sure that way. Here is the This is from Bond X, the hunting app. I'm not a hunter,
but >> here's where it is. >> So, you know, and it has our name and stuff like that. So, just if you need some another reference. >> Yeah. Well, I think there's is this there's another chunk of stuff for sale right now. Or is this part of that? >> Um
>> cuz just to the south of Fourth and I think actually to the east there is a hodgepodge of things that >> that are happening >> and I don't Yeah. I believe I saw something but you know I just um >> I mean that's that's I think goes back
to what my point was of right so for right we know right here there's water right here right there's there's which is not that far but this is the it's yeah it's a it is a
challenge because if there is >> it's it's a whole it's a whole litany of issues right so This this this road >> Yeah. >> is a project that happened and they had dump trucks and they're like, I don't know, just dump it off the end of Fourth Street.
>> Right. So, this all just got put in. So, there's no culverts underneath any of this stuff. So, what happened is all of this that probably used to look like this. All looks like this. If you zoom in on that on his Onyx map or on a satellite, all this is just birch, everything that's fallen down because
the hydraology changed because this was damned off. If you go down here, third street, that was the main highway, right? That was the main way into town, which is why we have these silly north south lots down here at the bottom, the 25 and 50 footers. >> So this was the old main drag. So that's
the trail right above Homestead, above Northern Star. >> So those in that old highway, that old roaded, all most of them have been fixed. Most of those culverts were collapsed. So again, you have this dam that crosses across the contour and
takes everything that's coming down and backs it all up. So like this is like it's there's like there's some upland and there's a piece of upland and the rest of it is wet, right? You're looking like here was this little tiny piece of upland on their site and then up here.
But the rest of this and it's not anybody's fault, but it's what makes and so same here. This is really, really wet. For one, there's a giant culvert that comes across under the highway and just dumps water into this property. >> Well, >> it dumps it into the rightway, but
because there is no sewer and water in there, >> right? There could be. And it could be managed like >> right up across the highway, but >> it's there's not Yeah, this is like it's >> No, I know. I know. We're getting into it, but um are you saying I I'm not
visioning this. Where is this exactly? >> That's the gravel. So if you come down eighth and take your first right, that's fourth street >> on fourth and come all the way down >> to the end >> to the end. >> There's like a turnaround there. >> Okay. Yeah. I mean, >> so there's there's a building in there.
There's a manhole somewhere along here, but I don't remember where it stops cuz there's a fire >> one block back and there's a hydrant. >> Yeah. >> Somewhere out there. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I think yes, we need to put in the infrastructure. This
is this is I think to your point is like okay so we do this we change the we do a variance to allow this to happen on according to the way we have things written substandard right >> well now we have somebody that buys all this and it totally fits
>> the criteria and somebody just puts a house >> so now we lost 10 potentially another 10 >> and 20 more right >> or even if you haved it and you did larger lots city lots, right? I mean,
and that's that's where >> and it's not you guys, right? But it's like and there's these areas on the periphery where the right north of the Gunland where my right >> same thing there is right there and there is wetlands, but those wetlands
>> are there because of the Gunland trail that got put through there and damned up everything and turned it into wetland. And so that's it's a really hard development side if we're like being pushed to try and make things affordable and to make things developable. And then
we're also like again it's not like there's a beaver swamp in the middle of something that we're talking about draining. Like it's it's already decisions that were made by people in generations before us. >> Yeah. that have impacted it to make it now with the rules that we have to follow which means burdensome cost both
for proper private property owners or for the city to try and >> deal with it and then what happens is it's like >> well I guess it just makes sense to put one house on that and put a septic in because that is really inexpensive compared to expansion of infrastructure.
>> Yeah. So, it's this we have this philosophical thing every time this happens. >> Maybe I said I wasn't going to talk too, but like >> but it's a Yeah, I >> I mean, in terms of anything that we can
do in the short term, I mean, I'm not sure what the answer is. I mean, >> well, that to me, I would say I'd make a motion to approve this to do that. And and I would just say again like you're what you're saying about like wanting to be part of the community and be here
like as things happen around you like you know maybe come and like well I mean he would love to >> be part you could be part of like you know again that southern section right that southern block that you have that abutz third I mean who knows right you know
>> what's going to happen in 5 years 10 years right >> but if that is something that you know >> right Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it would be ultimately I think if there was even a cost, right, if somebody did that and this or the city decided we're going to do that and add that extension, well,
now all of a sudden you're going to hit with a pretty big assessment because now you have city services at that lower property. >> Yeah. >> Um and maybe it means you'd want to sell it, but like you know that I don't I don't know. I I guess I'd say
I'm as things sit I don't have any problem. I again I agree. I'm not Scott Robinson. Scott's really good at what he does as far as doing septic work. I mean, I see why it's slope pitched the way it is to meet the contours because that's the way a mount system has to be. >> I would you could ask the question again
to address the neighbors concerns instead of being at the angle that it's presented at. If you brought it to the east, so it was more because the contours actually follow more due east west. If you brought it directly kind of off of the road >> Mhm. >> instead of off to the west slightly at
that angle, it looks like it fit. Again, I'm not a septic designer, but potentially contours work to do that. And then that would you'd still you'd still keep that 130 ft from your well. You'd still keep those separations from your stuff, but it would actually increase the distance from her well, and
it would increase the distance >> Yeah. >> to her property line. So you'd use like if >> you show me about where you're looking. Oops. >> I mean again Scott will be like going in town. >> But if mine's colored, it's easier. >> Yeah.
>> Right. So if this is you use this as your pivot point, right? And this is right. You're still fine. But if this just just sw just just swung like if you look at the contours on your other map, >> the contours are this way. But then as it goes this way, the contours switch
this way. So you could turn this potentially into right just move it over this way which would mean instead of it being diagonal it would be more >> a little bit more east west orientation and then that I guess what I'm understanding she's nervous about
construction affecting her lot. She's nervous about septic affecting her property. Well that would get us swung back over >> and then I don't think that she would have any >> I mean she might still have concerns. Yeah, but and yeah, I mean it's
definitely I mean obviously it's not we can't require that. >> Yeah, >> but >> it could the question could be asked, >> you know, that that's what I would >> Yeah. And we would just have to move our driveway a little bit farther to the south here to get and not have it be
like because it was going to be basically once we're past their land, we were just going to like swing it in here. >> Oh. So, you know, if you're fine with that rideway having a driveway on it, >> well, I don't >> that's where we don't know. >> Yeah, I mean that's >> how do we get that answer?
>> We are, I think, fine with >> Yeah. >> If if the requirement is that you just have to show you have a grade cut that Tim did the KTM, right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. And that's that's an administrative thing that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. that Mike can clarify more
>> for you. Okay. Um, >> so we just don't want to purchase the land and and then not be able to access it. >> Yeah, that would be >> Yeah. No, >> we could drop in from a helicopter or something, but >> you could look at it. >> No, you I think you have There's There's
Yeah, I mean, if if he's seen this, >> he meaning >> Sorry, Mike Roth. >> Yes. Yeah, we sent everything to the >> If he saw this, then I would assume that that works with what they what he wants to see. Okay.
>> Right. And again, what that might do is whatever happens to the property to the east of you, now all of a sudden they might start using that driveway, but they have every right to do that because it's not on your property. Correct. It's on the city right away. >> Right. >> Can we can we confirm that the the city
is okay with that? If that's with Mr. Roth, >> I'm just turning my mic on the uh I would check in with Mike tomorrow just to confirm that. My understanding is that might be possible, but there's also
the possibility that this meeting is to make sure that the planning commission and the city council would allow for this so that we can before we >> work on that driveway side of it, >> right? >> So, yeah, I made my motion. saying that
we can this is fine to put especially once we learn like really the size lot size acreage wise like if it's I'm I'm I'd make a motion to approve them to be able to put a private septic on this property. >> Okay, we >> I'll second
>> a motion and a second. Any discussion? >> Further discussion? Second discussion statements. Okay. Um, all those in favor >> I >> I >> I >> very good. So that
>> Thank you. goes on and yeah, I guess reach back out to Mike and see what your next steps are. >> Would this come back to council then or would it be uh >> I'm not sure. >> This will this will go to the council. >> Well, this will go to council. Yes. We just approved. >> Thank you, sir. >> And then when do they meet?
>> Uh, next Wednesday. >> Next Wednesday. Okay. >> 6:30 p.m. >> Okay. All right. Thank you very much. >> Appreciate it, guys. >> Thank you. >> You found his wetlands map. >> Oh, yes. >> Thank you. >> Yeah.
Okay. Well, that gets us back to the the Brisen variance request. >> I'd make a motion to approve the Brisen variance request. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Just flat out. >> It's a shipping container. >> Second. >> Yeah.
I just >> I mean that's it's a shipping container. >> Can Can we just give you one second? Okay. Cuz I'm thinking I get where you're coming from. I just wanted to get like cuz the original like how far it was from the lake made me feel like oh
it's right next to the shed. It makes a lot of sense. It's just sitting there. And then when I got the second view where it's actually like on the water, I'm like I just need to know a little more like how big is it really? 8 feet by 20 feet by 8 feet.
>> It's not in there. Doesn't say it in there. >> I know >> it doesn't. >> I went down and asked >> what did he Is it a 20footer or is it a 40footer? >> I think he said I'm pretty sure he said 20 foot. >> Footer. >> And they originally thought right close to the water and I said, "Oo, that
doesn't look good." And then I they talked about it and they said, "Oh, no. You're No, that isn't going to be it's going to be next to the building." >> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So the first one is real and the second one is wrong. >> No, the So >> it's not going to be next to the water now after all is what they told me. So
next to the building >> Scott Fish House. >> Yeah. >> The >> So this pink drawing is correct. >> That's the correct. >> Yes. >> So this is the correct one. Okay. Cuz the other one had shown it I guess at the whatever the building is up above. I uh showed it next to that building next
to the I guess >> this was discussed. Greg came in within like about 45 minutes. >> Okay. >> And that's the correct >> So that's the correct one right there. >> All right.
And everybody is fine with that. >> So not the orange one on our packet. The pink one. >> The pink one. >> The pink one. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if everybody's I just made a motion. We can vote on it. >> So um does anybody else have any questions?
So, it's 8 by 8 by 20. Is that what you said? Or what you believe to be true? >> That's what I believe to be 8 ft by 20 ft. Yeah. >> And it's to store fish >> gear. Oh, gear. >> Just the gear. >> It's all the gear that's underneath the
an or the fisherman's daughter right now. It's open and it's all there. >> Okay. >> So, they're just going to put it in a container, which I mean, I agree. I just had a couple questions. That's it. >> Okay. Okay, we do have a motion.
Anybody for a second? >> No, I already seconded. >> Oh, you did. Great. All those in favor? >> I >> I >> I voted more discussion. You didn't ask for discussion. >> Yeah. What were your concerns? >> We had discussion. Just we didn't get out of order. >> I mean, I don't Yeah, whatever. We voted
on it. >> It's voted. >> This is not in accordance with Robert's rules. >> It's close. So >> Bob's rules more than Robert's >> as a planning commission. Are we going to have more I would like more information
about why >> we need to get the septic system sizes and >> is there advice from the county of what >> they >> I mean I don't know. So maybe we need to
get some information from septic people and environmental people to give us advice of >> what why why the size >> this is going to be a situation because the city refuses to extend their sewer and water lines. This is going to come
up more >> we do extend them >> and so I would like to be prepared next time. I think we need to have a discussion >> when >> we have I'm not saying >> yeah right >> and you know when we do them we do them when you know we've got a project we
know they want to do it then that's when it happens but it's not that's been the way of it >> the city hasn't done it private people have done it >> right >> there's a difference >> and it's time to say the city needs to step up and be a partner with these
developers and not just leave it to the developers to extend our sewer and water lines. >> Uh I you you're speaking to the converted like uh Ben and I have been talking about this a lot and we just
aren't >> I mean does this council have the power to like create a plan to >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure >> to do that. I mean we can I mean we did do I mean I I mean historically you know they the city did a hard time
a hard time about >> but no no no but we did like we did run all those lines up you know at the business park over by you and that kind of thing. Those were you know put in by the city. >> Well yeah when they built the new Gunflint Trail. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely.
>> So they they did it and then >> but it's like that's that to me is the frustrating part right. Like so when they reroute the Gunflint Trail and they put all that infrastructure in there, >> like the biggest thing to come out of that is
obviously the Gunflint view, right? Like that's huge that that had that. But ultimately, I think if the Gunfl Trail was still Fifth Avenue West, like the old days, right? Like there would still that that would only been a couple
blocks to tie in that whole big apartment complex into where the infrastructure was down by the >> You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> So, >> but you look at from Fifth all the way to the business park. I mean, yeah, it's the same. It's this area that we talked
about tonight on the west side of town. Yeah. And that area on the north side of the Gunfand, I mean that that area has been >> below Creekville, right? >> Mhm. >> Especially Broadway, north Broadway to the east over to the business park.
>> Yeah. >> And that's like the blackwell of plat whatever that 1910 >> that's been platted as 40, you know, 50 foot lots like like everything else below the school.
But you know, so again, like there was probably great expense to put all that infrastructure into the Gunfintland Trail when the Gunflint Trail was rerouted. >> Mhm. >> Right. Because that's always think, oh, it cost so much. It cost so much. It's like, well, there was a big expense to do that to put storm water in. All it's
great >> to put sewer and water in, but if you don't do anything attach anything to that, then you know there's four. >> Oh, you mean like having them come off of
>> there's four places before Gunfl View, which there's now however many apartments there are in there, right? A lot. >> But that got built 15 years ago. And in that 15 years, only four houses got hooked up to the infrastructure.
>> And is that >> which is a lot of money for four houses. And again, that money seems much better spent if again you put more money into north side of the gunflint where all of that stuff east of Broadway is. There's
400 single, you know, 400 lots up there, >> you know, single city lots. Maybe not 400, but pretty dang close. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I, you know, definitely going towards that area is where I'm thinking we should break it out more.
>> That would be my inclination because it just seems like it like you're going down the street and it just stops. It's like, >> yeah, >> we could probably >> keep going. Well, again, it's it's it's it's it is expensive, but there's also an expense to not doing anything, right?
And it's in who we can bring into the community. It's who we can that who can afford to live here. It's all of those things, right? So there's an a negative, right, to it. >> Yeah. And I think this is a great example of where had utilities been run down there.
We'd have more houses. >> We could have 10 houses instead of one. >> Yep. Yeah. So I would just when you give your report next Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever day it is, um >> again say that the planning commission
needs more information and we want >> you mean like having like the utility maps. >> Yeah. And to help give it we can't plan ahead in planning if we don't have the basic information of where does that line stop. We want be
the planning commission, not the responding commission, >> right? Responding to requests. We're not the request commission or the planning commission. Like we like if if indeed whatever you've been here longer than I have. >> Not much though.
>> No, remember I'm only 25, right? >> But yeah, right. I mean, yeah. It's like if if we want to do what it is again, why did they put infrastructure in the Gunland Trail if they didn't plan on tying into it, >> right? >> Right. >> You know, why did why did the city spend
that money? >> I don't know, but I'm assuming it's because they thought, hey, why did they build the aprons into that, right, on each one of those on the north side where people pull over so they can go walking, right? Like those are all roads that could be built.
Why did that happen? >> So, yeah, >> if it was not gonna get if there wasn't a plan for the future to to tie into it all. And again, I don't think like I don't think I made good use where right
where I'm at. Like my house is on six lots. That's ridiculous, right? Even the place that Hamilton built. I mean, that's great. There was a little bit of wet there. So they but they have one house >> on five lots, you know, and they probably would have loved, right, to be
able to tie in two places >> right there, >> right? >> But if they decided to do two, now all of a sudden they've got to go right up Broadway. They've got to put in eight, they've got to do the real infrastructure work that it takes.
>> Yeah. And then it all of a sudden for private developer, private individuals gets to be very cost prohibitive >> or hard to do. >> Yeah. >> So I think it's our job to push that and to understand what that
looks like. >> Yeah. I mean there >> I mean I feel like the I mean I I especially like this example just because I think it makes it clear the costs the things we lose when we don't run the utilities out. >> Yeah.
>> Because it's going to keep happening. >> Yeah. >> This is good. >> And I don't I don't know if there is I've had probably four people call me about I feel like it's not this one that these folks are talking about, but there's a whole kind of in that area though. >> Okay. like
>> between third and >> third and fourth. >> There's something going on back there when I drove it yesterday. >> Oh, >> right. >> Yeah. >> And so again, somebody's like, "Well, I I don't want to do any of that stuff. I just want to put one house up." It's
like, wait, so you're going to buy all of this property and then put a house and there's city rightaways, right? Street rightaways and avenue rightaways intersecting this kind of >> plot. And I get it because it is pretty
reasonably priced in comparison to other things. But then again, now you have a property that's taking up the space that could be, you know, it is expensive, but it's so much less expensive. >> Yeah. >> Than what it costs on an individual
basis, right? If you had to go build 10 septic systems, I mean, that's great that they got a $30,000 quote, but >> yeah, >> I, you know, >> yeah, maybe they did. Um, yeah, it's and then what is that? I mean, again, we're also supposed to be
like stewards of the environment, right? And like of of So, what is better for the environment? Is it to have individual? It's one thing if we're outside and for the most part FAR three is the generally the smallest county size, right? Five acres sort of like
lake lots, but like five acre that far three size, >> five acre minimums. So there you you put a house in a well septic private infrastructure really yeah the land can probably handle that right but if we're now talking about condensing and and
density if it would I think it would be a shame if you ended up with you know the place that we talked about tonight and potentially two or three other places in what equates to maybe a total of five to six acres overall and you have three to
four places all on individual well and septic. Yeah. >> And probably environmentally, right? It can handle it, right? Septic systems are designed to be pretty but but it also is taking away
any potential growth. We're not going to annex in we can't annex in south, right? Right. >> We're land we're we're stuck and we can't really go north because we know what happens once we get >> above. Right. I mean that's parkland and
we can't that's hilly. It's all rock like the guy that was here how many meetings to try and build his little resort up there, >> right? I mean, we know that that's not practical and is expensive. >> So, we have this we have this finite resource and I just Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Not it's not it's not exploiting it, right? But it's utilizing it, >> right? >> So, >> yeah, I think the thing that always comes back is the the money of it. Like, how do we how do we pay for that infrastructure? How do we make those dollars make sense?
Because you know if we're going to you know assess people for that when we put it in I mean even just small extensions we've done people are not very happy about that you know about paying more. >> But what would that be like if there was
a grant? Yeah. But it's because it's like this peacemeal approach. So like yeah it might oh yeah it's going to cost us a hundred grand to get this to you. >> Well it doesn't really do any good for anybody if it's already serving that person. Like I can see where it's like, yeah, I'm just going to put a well and septic in because it's going to cost me 50 or 60 grand,
>> right? >> And I'm not paying for water and sewer in perpetuity, right? I'm not paying those costs. I'm paying for everything right now, >> right? >> But if you Right, it's the like the the value of scale, right? If we said, okay, we're going to do a block of infrastructure. Well, that in theory
serves both sides of the street. Mhm. >> And if you, you know, again, it's like it would be developing like what is the de what is the development and expansion plan? >> Mhm. >> And maybe it never goes anywhere. >> I hope it does. But if we don't even have a plan on how we could foresee that
happening, then I don't know how we ever get away from what we had to talk about tonight. >> Right. >> Right. If there isn't a plan of how we're going to like, you know, the even if it's like a visioning thing, I would be totally up for like having a you guys
would get really tired of me, I'm sure, but like >> sitting down for a few hours to talk about like, okay, let's get that map like you're asking for where stuff sits right now. >> Yeah. >> Let's look at, >> you know, ownership >> of property, right? We know the school
owns all of that stuff north of the gunfint, you know, and it's mixed on this area where we were talking tonight, mixed, you know, mixed private ownership, >> but school doesn't want any of that. They have no interest in it, >> right?
>> Well, you know, but they they have interest in partnering. I think you could probably get that from them that they do have interest in building more houses so we get more families so we get more people here so the schools stay strong,
>> right? >> You know. >> Yeah. >> And it's not all single family. It's a combination of things. It's what's happening at Gunflint View. It's town homes. It's single family. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. And you know, we do have our visioning session coming up, you know,
where we're going to be talking about all that. >> Redos. No, not we. >> Well, we want it too. So, you tell us the city council. >> Bring that to the council. >> The council because I'm like cuz we've talked about before. We've wanted it to be, >> you know, up there. But
>> I know it it is >> you can't make everybody go your way. But, but I mean, we can bring it up again. >> Well, maybe we should each we should write a letter from the planning commission to the city council and >> like, hey, if you can we want this. I
think everybody but >> everybody wants >> why why have we been talking about it? I haven't been on for four years now, but I was on for eight years before that and >> we talked about it. I wouldn't I talked as much as I talked tonight about it.
>> Not every meeting, but like you know it's like >> right >> right like it's important like we need to do it like why can't we do it? It's like oh it cost so much money. >> Well yeah. So what during your eight years what was the deal? Was was that ultimately did it just keep getting >> h it's it's it's expensive
>> and it just well other stuff came right I mean >> sure other things and I mean that is part of part of the issue but I I don't disagree with you and I really do feel like that is the job of the city is to start saying like here's the direction we would like things to go so >> have we done like I don't think I don't
think that in my time there and I don't think that certainly in my time in the planning commission which have over overlapped like I don't think I don't think I've ever seen I mean, I've certain I'd love that we have like here's a replacement plan, right? So, we can budget and we can get that stuff.
>> You mean like for the roads instru there's a >> it doesn't make sense if we're going to push it like push it doesn't make it's expensive. It's expensive. It's expensive. But there is there's things out there, right? I mean,
there's, you know, I it's like federal government stuff, right? >> Maybe >> like there's infrastructure grants, >> there's infrastructure funding, which is like, yeah, well, that's still all our tax money. It's like, yeah, that's that's true, but it's a much much bigger pot, right? Yeah.
>> And, you know, even Ir stuff and deed, I mean, there is so many funding sources that are out there, I think, especially coming into it as a city to request I mean, look at what the school just did with the referendum, right? It's kind of
like a blessing it didn't pass last year because we all got a great thing and a better thing for half the price because of them working hard. I mean, it was not easy for the folks, you know, cheering that along and going over and getting that ask. But, I mean, it's so, right?
So, like that if that's available for the school, it's available for housing, right? And then you can put caveats potentially because again if you're talking about an entity like the school district that owns the property versus
I'm going to put infrastructure in on privately owned property and hit you with these assessments. Like there must be you know then then it gets difficult to be like well then I you know I don't want to pay these assessment. I'm going to try and sell these for as much money as possible. Right? There's like the more capitalist take on it. But if we
look at it in the I don't know there's there's yeah EDA housing authority like what why I don't know what have they done have they done anything and like looked at like where infrastructure sits who's who's our member on the EDA
>> on the EDA that is Tracy I believe this EDA right now. >> Yep. And do we have an H member or is that are the H hara kind of like a I don't know what happened with that or they
>> Yeah, I don't know what happened with that. I think they might be >> they're separate. Well, there were separate they haven't joined yet. >> I didn't know. I know there's now that they were talking about director situations that maybe change. I haven't
I don't follow it anymore. But going back to what this development plan and where our potential is, we also have to think yes, it's expensive. It's costly. There is, you know, other cities have gotten money for
>> Yeah. >> infrastructure. So don't tell me GR can't get it >> right. >> It's not easy. But then you can also have to think about the tax capacity aspect of it. We're gonna get one home out of here, 2,000 square foot home to
add to our tax base. We could have had 10. >> We could have had more people. >> And even if you could only had two or three. >> Yeah. >> Because that's the that's kind of the crazy thing, right? So if you're doing if if they said all right we're just
going to tie in to and they could I mean I don't know because of the distance they probably couldn't do it but if you're putting a single family so I'll use the first one that I did and then like same I think with Hamilton like
they were able to go well Hamilton like it's 4 inch line out of that house right into and tied into the sewer right so there's no and right so then that's that's easy that's
not anything crazy but it's as soon as you're doing multiples right you're everything is different it's there's different spec that you have to follow the engineers have to sign off on stuff you have to observation >> therefore costs go up um
but it yeah I don't know I'm I'm exhausted but it's I think but I I I think that but it's kind of a Yeah, it's a it's a it's a shame. It's not It's not a shame. I
think it's it's not us. We're not doing our job if we're not looking at what that potential could be. Even if it is really hard, if we don't have a plan, then how can we, you know, how could we ever turn anybody down
>> for that? How could we ever how could >> I mean, >> yes. I mean, >> I'm going to throw hypothetical out here. Somebody says, "Hey, school. You know what? I got a bunch of money. I'm going to buy all of this land north of the Gunland Trail, right?"
And they can run a dragway up one of those aprons and put uh they could put a 800 foot house up there, but be surrounded by all of that. What do we have? What do we have in place to stop them from doing that right now?
Nothing. I don't I mean because they got they meet the requirement for property size if they can or they might even just put a septic in there. They don't even have to tie in. But what do we but it's in city limits. So we have no right like I'm like how do we how would we how
could we stop that? We couldn't. We would have to say yep you can as long as you can get the septic inspected and all that stuff done through the county like you're good to go. And then we lose not the potential of 2510, but we lose the potential of 200.
Then we're screwed. Then there is nothing very little that we can do to try and help affordability. >> Right. >> Right. I unless that I mean that's a extreme case. No, >> but I mean that's what
>> a ballooning of what we were just seeing. Yeah. >> Yeah. Agreed. >> So tell them that we want to come and talk to them. >> Okay. >> Just kidding. I don't even know who's on speaker. >> Well, I would say we're adjourned at
this point. >> Okay.