--------- um I'm just going to call to order this meeting This meeting is being recorded by the economic development committee If any other person present are doing the same you must notify the chairperson at this time Got one You going to do a roll call or after uh we'll do it after you open up Okay
Very good Um so we're going to call to order likewise for the planning board and uh already approved this recording Thank you very much All right So the next item on the agenda is roll calls members Um I am present
Councelor Mashero here Councelor Gordon here Councelor Bullock here Councelor Minhos here We do have a quorum
Okay And uh introduce the members for the planning board I'm George Palus and the chair Bronson member Peter Macyver member Tom Bledo alternate alternate Jeff Saler vice
chair Big Michelle Clark Thank you All right The next item on the agenda is approving the meeting minutes from March 6th to March 11th Can I get a motion so moved Second
Thank you We don't need a roll call We don't need a roll call vote So all in favor I I making notes here Sorry All right Um the next item on the agenda
is public comment So if you want to pass sheets down great Thank you And anybody online that wants to talk in public comment if you could please put your comments in just sign up in the
comment board First person from the crowd is Robert Caitlyn Catlin thank you Catelyn thank you Yes Go up to the table please Okay Um well I just want to acknowledge that probably the reason we're all here is because there's a housing crisis in
this country and in this state And um I I'm feeling resentful that the governor is imposing rules on Western Mass as often happens from Boston that are could potentially really change the character of our town We have a great historic
nature here and um I do not want to see uh more than one ADU per lot allowed I think one ADU per lot is a good compromise Uh I have people I have a house uh and I have people calling me and messaging me all the time you want
to sell you want to sell you know it's not local people you know they don't have our interests at heart They're going to squeeze as many dollars as they can out of our community And if it takes throwing up a bunch of ADUs behind a building that's already a duplex or or
just a single family on a small lot they're going to do everything they can and it's going to affect people Like if somebody put a ADU next to my house or in the lot next door believe me I would notice it I hear their their car coming up and down the driveway all the time as
is Uh if there's going to be more people living there up till 9 I read somewhere this is going to you know it's really going to drive down our our housing values and quality of life Um
uh let's see I also in speaking in terms of the housing prices I think rental vouchers should be uh available for low-income people um to rent small dwellings but not to have absentee investors just coming in and converting homes into you
know a single family into three or four uh unaffordable u units Um let's see Um I think that covers the gist of what I wanted to say Thank you And just for the record can you state your name and
address yeah Robert Catelyn 31 West Street Thank you Thank you Next on the list is Jessa McCormack name and address please Yeah Hi everyone I'm Jessa McCormack 20 Frederick Road So I'm here tonight uh representing Housing
Greenfield We're a group of folks who recognize that our community is experiencing a housing crisis and are supporting solutions that help all of our neighbors thrive So the proposed amendments they create just unnecessary restrictions This isn't a piece of uh
legislation or or regulations that work in isolation right there's lots of other things that are making sure the characters of our community will uh stay in place So for example the proposed language that would allow only one ADU
on a permitted lot it seems a little bit like a a hammer that sees everything as a nail right there are many different potential configurations for multiple units of housing to coexist and it depends on the existing structure and lot size Uh there are other existing
regulations codes and reviews a potential project we need to go through that can specifically problem solve for each unique lot Other amendments um seem like they would just create confusion and shill development So there's an amendment that would redefine an ADU as a unit within a principal dwelling unit
It's just confusing Like I can't even really say it properly So I think it would it might really stop people from wanting to explore this further And I think there's just other ways to go about this There's already a really clear distinction between ADUs and duplexes triplexes and apartments We
should just kind of go with what everyone understands Lastly we all need to remember that in reality there are only 10 to 18 potential ADUs that could be developed in green fields over the next 10 years So we're not talking about a drastic change in community character
Instead we're providing places for our neighbors to live We're somewhat lucky that an increase of 18 units would actually make a significant improvement in housing accessibility Overall we need about 400 units to increase housing accessibility per the town's housing needs assessment So this is very
achievable and it's a situation where every unit really does count Thanks Thank you Um I'm just going to interject here If if you signed up for public comment and it's in regards to the public hearing which is about these amendments we'll do that in the next
section So did everybody that sign up on this sheet is that part of the public comment for the the amendments or did you have something else you want to wrap up okay So we're just going to handle that in the next section when we get that public meeting open
please Right Anybody online have anything that's not there's going to be like a public comment section in the public hearing Correct Correct Which is going to be fairly soon So just following protocol Um should there be a second chance
you signed up for it You could talk again if you want but you said it on the record I'm just trying to keep things clean for future procedure right so um I should have said that from the beginning That's my fault but we'll get back to it in the next part of
Got their hand raised Stephanie is this about the amendments or is this about a different public comment no I had a different public comment Okay go ahead then Hi Stephanie Name and address
Yeah 166 Chapman Street Um so I I just Are we talking to both committees right now i just don't because it's a joint meeting I It was more directed towards the planning board and not being able to find certain documents Um you can say
whatever you want in your two minutes of public comment Okay So um the inaccessibility of uh documents um for the planning board agendas is a real concern I tried to
look up some of the um documents uh for some of the things that were on some of the prior agendas and I could not find them Um I'm going through multiple departments and links on the city website to try and locate where um
plan documents would be other than in person And I'm hoping that we can digitize um all the documents that we discuss and um it's just a thought for the future to make it more accessible for people who
might not be able to get to 20 Sanderson Street Thank you Thank you You see a TV remote right behind your laptop That's Max All right So no more public comment not relating to the public hearing So we're
going to move on to the public hearing which is on page 20 So give me a minute to get there All right So in accordance with home rules charter the economic development committee and planning board hold a joint public hearing on Tuesday April 8th 2025 at 6 p.m at city hall meeting room second
floor 14 court square or via the Zoom link below to consider the following proposed amendments to the Greenfield zoning ordinance Four zoning amendments to section 200-56 accessory dwelling units Two amendments in subsection D accessory dwelling units paragraph 2 One
amendment in subsection D accessory dwelling units standards to add new paragraph 11 amendment in section C applicability paragraph 2 So we're going to open this public meeting at 6:42
and opening for the planning board as well Thanks All right So at this time I'd like to continue down the list of the public Um the next person on the list is David Lewis 54 High Street If you come up the table
just say your name and address please I'm David Lewis I live at 54 High Street Um I think that there should only be one ADU per lot Um what concerns me is that why is there a housing shortage or
problem in Greenfield i'm seeing a lot of vacant houses Uh the last graduation class from Greenfield High School had under 75 kids So obviously the kids that are graduating are after they go out of
college if they go to college they're moving out of Greenfield The population is dropping uh by the next turn of the next century Greenfield has been programmed by someone in the state of having 48% of
the number of residents that we now have So that's why I'm just I'm concerned that we're getting this thing shoved down our throats Um Boston wants to move out here fine But uh let's not stop building buildings Let's fill up the
ones we have Let's bring him up to code or whatever we have to do Thank you Thank you Next person on the list is Donna Fesser Did I say that right just name address please Fessenger please
check What i'll give you a second before I start the clock I'm speaking out on my objections to these confusing changes in our town's ADU regulations These byright changes
mandated by the state reduce resident our residents voices in our neighborhood developments Our population growth has been relatively stagnant for 75 years And without new job opportunities people
who move to Greenfield will be reliant on our social services and that will increase the workload of our fire police and health services thus increasing the costs and our taxes Most green fielders do not have
the funds to build ADUs It's expensive to build another building or even to rehab upstairs It's quite expensive The corporate developers are the ones who stand to benefit as they have the money
to buy up properties and build multiple ADUs I would much prefer to see our town's efforts being made to help the property owners maintain their houses and to rehab the increasing number of
vacant and derelct houses across our neighborhoods in Greenfield We have many vacant properties which could be available housing units They need to be fixed up They could be rented or sold to new
owners These ADU regulations have been reddrafted four or five times since last October If some LLC wants to buy up single family homes and add a new dwelling unit that's an ADU not a duplex
And we should leave it open-ended for investors to add multiple We should not leave it open-ended for investors to add multiple rental units to their properties I support the idea of one ADU
on one lot if that Not even that in favor of ADUs to begin with I have one that I stare at right outside my back window It's one of the first ones built for two a young couple which now more
seconds just how many 15 now has nine people living there with their toys and uh things scattered all over So it's not all that pleasant Zoning is supposed to protect us all not just those who are wealthy enough to build a second or third home
on their property Thank you Thank you The next person on the list is Lexi Coner Evening Um my name is Lexi Turner I live on 17 Chestn Hill Uh thanks for the opportunity to provide input on the
petition before the planning board and economic development committee this evening and thanks for your time and commitment on this issue Um I would like to reiterate my support for the changes in zoning regarding ADUs that the planning board and economic development
committee have already recommended to the city council I do not agree with the changes proposed in the citizens petition before the board and committee this evening The intent of the affordable homes act is to make it easier to build additional units across
the state The citizens petition would make it more difficult for an owner of a two family property to build a detached ADU than what the planning board and economic development committee are recommending This would move us backwards not forwards It is even more
important today for alternative types of housing and that are acute housing shortage of all tenure types Please allow for two family homes to build an additional ADU on their property by right as long as it meets all relevant building code and zoning requirements I
also believe that the citizens petition to develop a city fund for rental assistance for ADUs is unnecessary This is what federal section 8 and Massachusetts rental assistance program vouchers are designed to do for anyone
eligible Thank you Thank you Thanks Next on the list is John Murray Jackson Good evening everyone Jackson to Chestnut Hill Greenfield I'm here to support the citizen
amendments regulating ADUs We asked the executive office of housing and livable communities recently Are towns required to allow multiple ADUs on a single lot the answer was it is a local option
whether to allow more than one ADU per lot Towns like Conway and Shootsbury are allowing one ADU per lot A member of the Conway planning board told us "Conway's principal dwellings may yield no more
than one protected a unit ADU It doesn't provide any mechanism for additional ADUs of any type." The Economic Development Committee minutes of its March meeting states quote "Concern was raised that
developers view ADUs as a lucrative incentive to make large quantities of money in the smallest amount of space and there should be a limit on the numbers of on the number of ADUs that could be built on a lot." End quote The
EDC minutes added quote "A significant amount of of ADUs has been constructed in Massachusetts and even if zoning allows for ADUs it doesn't mean everyone will have the means to build one One
developer in Greenfield wants to build 24 small condos up to 700 square ft and sell them for $250,000 each This is not for lowincome people We have
5,2 5,525 residential lots in Greenfield that would that would be allowed to build one ADU with no special permit required If we allow every property
owner to build one ADU on their lot with no special permit that's legal and that's very generous If over the next five years only 2% of these homeowners build an ADU we would have 110 new
ADUs Councelor Bulock wrote her wrote her constituents that the state estimates for Greenfield's portion of ADUs built over a 5-year period would be 19 ADUs
So if only 2% of the residential lots built one ADU that would be nearly six times higher than the state's projections And if 98% of our property owners do not want to build an ADU over
the next 5 years why then are we even talking about ADUs as a way to address our housing shortage i want to close by supporting the citizens proposal for giving lowincome
renters who want to live in an ADU access to rental subsidy vouchers Thank you everyone Thank you Good timing Uh next on the list is Mitchell Speak Good evening
councilors and EDC and planning board members Mitch Spade to Chestnut Hill Uh I sort of echo the sentiments of what you heard from David Lewis General Lee Jackson and um I'm going to put it
to you a different way tonight I had something else to say but uh I think this is this bill that's being presented to the constituents of Massachusetts is one of the biggest
poverty pimping programs I've seen since urban renewal And I've got facts to back it up I think through this whole process we have never discussed about owner
uh pathway to home ownership This is all strictly focused on the tenant landlord relationship and I think we need to move past that We've spent several months trying
to educate and prevent damage control We know what a this is playing out what I experienced in 2015 when ADU first came The same players just different faces
Okay the same thing is playing out and the takeaway is going to be the same I would seriously ask you to consider what's being proposed by the citizens on the petition tonight Thank you
Thank you Next on the list is Al Norman start These are for board members board For the record my name is Al Norman Grenell Street I want to make three simple points tonight about the
citizens amendments for ADUs Number one we have a legal legal local option to require one ADU on one lot Look at SE section 71035 of the final ADU regulations It begins if a municipality chooses to
allow additional uses on the same lot if it chooses EOHLC indicated to me that we have the local option to limit one ADU on one lot Point two a separate dwelling unit inside a principal dwelling unit is
an ADU and must be counted as an ADU What is the difference between a two family dwelling in our current zoning which is a detached building containing two dwelling units versus a principal dwelling unit with an ADU that has a
separate entrance from the outside through an entry hall or a corridor shared with the principal dwelling If I apply under the proposed local ADU regs to convert the second floor inside of my home into a separate dwelling unit that
maintains a separate outside entrance or through a hallway or corridor shared with a principal dwelling that's an ADU According to ADU law 760 CMR7102 if I want to be classified as
two family I can build a duplex which is a detached building containing two dwelling units What I built inside my home is not detached It's an ADU Citizen amendment for one ADU on one lot
uh represents a reasonable compromise between people who fear that there will be too many ADUs and those who fear there will not be enough When you have one whether you have one two or three family house you should not be able to add more than one
ADU per lot We can strike the definition of unprotected unit which allows any number of ad additional ADUs on a lot and remove it as a use in our table of uses If we allow one ADU per lot the city will not have to hold any special
permit or site plan reviews because there will be no unprotected ADUs Point three I support making rental vouchers available for low-income people to rent these small dwellings I do not support making absentee investors wealthy by
converting a single family home like mine into three or four unaffordable market rate rentals The city should commit to negotiating an agreement with the Greenfield Housing Authority to make rental subsidy v vouchers available for people who want to live in ADUs We
should be advocating for poor people to get these units not saying it's not necessary Go and work something out with a section 8 Let's be proactive folks Thank you so much Thank you Next on the list is and Denim L Did I say that right
hello everybody Uh Denn Blunt Sunrise AB in Greenfield Mass Um I uh have a sort of a broadbrush comment or two and then something a little more specific ties into a lot of the things that we've said earlier Um I
certainly appreciate all the discussion of the complicated issues related to ADUs this evening It's it ain't simple That's all there is to that But there are solutions and I agree that situations regarding ADUs certainly could have different effects on
different environments Too many is a problem I'm more or less a one ADU guy Um it can certainly be argued though that mixed bags of homeowners in our town could be adversely affected if some ADU solutions
isn't arrived at The job is to make winners out of everybody Too many is too much but the right amount could serve everyone in a positive way What I've been hearing is that this issue is not settling well in our city as well as
statewide It all needs clarity and smart organized well-ment management I sit here in particular as one of about 40 homeowners in the Stone Farm Lane and Sunrise neighborhoods in
uh Greenfield and they are facing a looming yet unpermitted large develop development of condos that Joan mentioned uh just a few minutes ago Uh it's about 50 yards from the back of my home so I have a vested interest in how
things fly in that regard I um the uh proposed number of new buildings has varied some but as I also believe Joan mentioned most estimates suggest 22 connected condos most size from only 5
to 700 square ft each Uh several other separated buildings are also on that agenda and multiple cars and lighting will certainly blight the area if built That's more of an aside but the whole point is that there's 22 condos being
built that are connected with each other So this is a kind of a slightly unique situation where you've got bunch different bunches of units but uh how do you throw the number of ADUs into that sto if that buildout came to pass that scenario alone would have deepened
unpopular effects on the existing adjacent homeowners And adding to tonight's discussion uh expanding from there by adding multiple ADUs multiple ADUs will be a fiasco The question is how are the council and governing boards of
Greenfield going to manage any notion of expanding ADUs throughout our communities without damaging those communities thank you for your time Thank you Thank you The last person on the list is uh
Chris here Good Uh proceed here Uh 26 Sunrise A Uh I'm going to be talking on the zoning issues a little bit more Uh the ADU's housing lots uh I think one house or a
housing lot uh and one ADU is pretty reasonable I don't see it as being um anything but that It needs to be written that way if we're going to have it that way Um I really believe that it's
uh somewhat of a solution for some of them Uh certainly not the end all but we do need housing Uh one of the deals with ADUs and to spell out what they are seems to be an issue Um the petitions is
saying you know they're going to have an egress they're going to have an entry they're going to be able to get out they're going to have cook space they're going to have sleeping space uh sanitary facilities Um this is basically an apartment and it's you've got to have it
all in order to be an ADU Uh I think that should be in the law I you know spell it out Um I like what the citizen physician and four does which is uh if you don't go with one or two um and you go basically
what it does is if somebody does want to put a second one on uh you do keep the ability to go and have a special permit and to be having um some uh control by the planning board the zoning board uh
to have some control over what's getting built in the town I mean that's what the boards are for That's what you you're here for is for not just us but for the people coming in so they know what they're doing and not doing Save number three for last I'm absolutely in favor
of rental subsidies Why are you building them if you're not going to let the people get in there who need them i mean it's it's you know somebody's going to occupy them It's nice to the people locally get to do it And yeah I'm just
all over that one I don't even know why it lost Uh all that said um uh lifelong resident homeowner um I have an issue that has not been addressed and I'm not sure it actually is an issue but uh uh if a condo unit is able to have ADUs
attached to it I don't know But inside outside attached uh you know we talked about it We have a 24 unit uh piece uh coming up somewhere possibly behind us It isn't actually permitted yet or anything but if those 24 turn into 48
that's something you need to put regulations on and figure out what is good And I am unsure if that goes but it's something certainly I'm concerned with Uh much of the new ADU regulations uh just need to be addressed in the
issues around them And that's what you're doing here and I appreciate it Uh we need a more affordable housing uh both in Franklin County and especially in Greenfield where the county seat We've got a lot of the facilities that uh the people who don't have a lot of
money need Um and I I won't get into them closing argument here Yeah Uh these are very confusing issues at best Um please consider the four uh amendments and the positive impact that they can bring to affordable housing And thank
you very much Thank you Thank you All right So I am going to go online and I see we have two hands up So we will start with Stephanie Duclo Hi Stephanie Duclo uh 166 Chapman Street
I'm going to speak to order uh 25-081 Um regarding the uh subsidies I agree with uh giving housing subsidies I'm confused as to why we are
making SHA statements um for the Greenfield Housing Authority specifically when I accepted a a housing voucher mobile housing voucher Um it did come from the Greenville Housing Authority and it rented my full house Uh so I'm not sure where the restriction is
on their end um if they eliminated that um category that you know a dwelling unit um would be eligible for a rental voucher Um it already exists and I know
that we also have them over at the uh Franklin County um housing authority as well So I'm a little confused as to why this is being brought forward with a specific entity Um I think that restricts us Although I do support the notion of it I'm just a little uh
cautious as to a shallow statement for the Greensville Housing Authority if we can't even bring it to fruition if the vouching the vouchers are no longer available or for whatever reason you know funding gets cut for that program Um I'm confused as to why this amendment
is being added into our um code Thanks Thank you And we have one more person online Uh Peg Hall thank you Peg Hall 34 Pier Street uh precinct
6 So I'm a little concerned with all of the citizens petitions right now If you have a single family home you can convert it to a two family You don't need a public hearing You need to meet the existing reg Same thing with the two to three Um I don't
see that that's a problem We haven't been overwhelmed by that happening even though that's currently on the books So I don't see any point in stepping backwards when our goal should be to try to create more housing As far as the ADUs the um I'm in favor of what the state is making us do
but whether we're in favor or not the state is making us do those basic things And I hear a lot of fear-mongering a lot of inflated numbers I don't think this is going to make a huge difference in town I hope that the
small differences that it does make allows us to have a little bit more housing And I think if the citizen petitions were to pass that I I think you should do that if what you're looking for is sprawl I'd rather keep our farmland farmland I would rather get
the center of town to have higher density Um I think we should be doing that by increasing the height limits a little bit and looking at some of the other things that we've been looking at But I think these citizens positions are a giant step backwards and frankly I think most of it amounts to envy Thank
you Thank you Do we have anybody else online that would like to speak anybody else in the room come on State your name and address Yeah that's Marino 82 Highland Avenue You
just spell that real quick C O N S T A N C E Last name D I M A R I N L 82 Highland 82 High Highland Highland Thank you I'm hard at hearing Yours in
construction All right You can go now Thank you Um I would just kind of like to express my thoughts on this I am not a professional town hall person So these the routine I don't know so I will do my best here but um I am in I have been in the paper and
stuff following um ADU dwelling sort of um some of the changes and proposed things I am very much in favor of one unit to one lot It seems to me just a practical way to have something that um
meets homeowners needs without having to take a lot of measures but also mitigates um developers from coming in and sort of taking advantage That's sort of my it seems to me like a good compromise um from a more personal point of view that really just actually very recently came
up I started re realizing sort of a more um we have a lot in the back of our house which we purchased when we bought our house and that lot is a woodland that abuts James Street so it's essentially a buffer between the back of our property and the next street in the
back Um our neighbors also own a lot that is adjacent to ours So basically there was this woodland that was purchased by some of the houses to create a buffer at some point Um and very recently um it was brought to my attention that one of my neighbors
transferred some of that property on his lot Um I'm not even sure exactly how much or exactly where but um I was like "Oh wow." You know I didn't know anything about this They didn't have to come to me about anything And we have a very good relationship Like this isn't
about that Like but it it really brought to mind how this can really be um something that affects neighbors and neighbors like people like I realized wow both sides both of those lots like I people could just fill them up with ADUs if there's no and that's if there's no
control and that was not what we purchased that lot for I realized we only own our lot but that is the reality like you buy property you have ideas you have you invest in a neighborhood for a particular thing and then if all of a sudden the rules are changed and that neighborhood could change into something
else Um I think that that is a really big deal and that people should have a sense of there's some structure and infrastructure around this It's not just sort of like well whatever anybody wants they can just pop up you know a bunch of little units back there and a woodland
isn't a woodland anymore So that's pretty much all I would like to say Thank you Thank you All right Last chance Anybody online that hasn't spoke or anybody in the room that hasn't
spoke all right I'm going to close the public hearing at 711 Likewise Are you guys gonna hang around or we are going to be we're not going to be deliberating on this this evening Um so
um we are uh going to be closing the planning board meeting and we will be deliberating on this at our next regular meeting on May 1st Um so uh I'll accept from one of the plan board members a motion to adjurnn
the plan board So we'll we'll do because Victor's um remote we'll do a um a roll call Um just want to in favor
I vote Oh thank you I I I and Victor Hi Thank you Okay Meeting is closed Back to you Thank you The next item on our agenda is I get the right
page motions So this is Order number FY25-051 The city council moved that it be ordered that the city council of Greenfield amend the zoning ordinance chapter 200 zoning section 56 accessory dwelling units to add language in bold
and remove language and strikethrough as required revisions under the affordable homes act signed by the governor Mora Healey relative to accessory dwelling unit 760 CMR71 to read as follows and attached exhibit A and amends for uh and further amends that the table of conducts and index of the code and
further that non-substantiative changes to the numbering of the ordinance be permitted in the order that be in compliance with the numbering format of the code of the city of Greenfield So um this basically is just voting how we feel about the planning board's changes
to make us apply to the state standards Didn't you vote on this last month i thought we did and I was looking through the minutes and for some reason so confused that it came back because I really thought we already I thought I think we might have tabled it until we discussed the citizens petitions just to
kind of do it all at once was what I recall but I'd have to dig through the meeting next Um to to me I think um we should just vote on this now and any of the citizens petitions just for the audience to understand amend what we vote on now if
they do go through the council So it's not going to prevent your petitions from taking action It's just we're going to change it now to what it needs to be to meet state regulations and then if we want to amend it based on the citizens petitions in the sections that you said we can do so at a further date which
would probably be the next city council meeting Um May probably I think we're saving all this till May Is that correct special meeting Yep Um yeah for a special meeting in May We're holding a special meeting for this so we meet your timeline so it doesn't get kicked out
Um any counselors have any comments before we take a vote on this no Let's take a vote 25 051 I'm a yes Councelor Master Tatero
Yes Councelor Gordon Yes Councelor Bulock is absent Councelor Minhas Oh same Okay The next item on the agenda page 29 29
Order number FY25079 The city council moved that be ordered that the city council of Greenfield amend the zoning ordinance chapter 200 section 200-56 accessory dwelling units subsection D accessory dwelling unit standards paragraph 2 by adding the following language section 200-56
accessory dwelling units is hereby further amended in subsection D accessory dwelling unit standards subp part two by adding the words only one accessory dwelling unit may be created within a single family house or lot the following new language once a single protected use ADU has been permitted on
a lot pursuant to 760 CMR 71.02 definition of protected use ADA ADU no additional ADU should be permitted on lot So um let's bring this up to discussion and if anybody has any comments so now would
be the time process question Sure So my understanding is that the planning board is going to deliberate on these questions at your next meeting So how is it that we are able to move forward on them you can you can vote on the same thing as long as you hold the public
meeting that meeting So we do it in city council all the time where we have But do we do things before the planning board gives us their report so we could do this a couple ways We could just go to the May 8th meeting and not pick a vote on this at all right and then deliberate it at the uh the May meeting
the public meeting Or we could talk about it briefly here make sure everybody understands it and then not have a recommendation on this So we could basically not vote on this at all right now if we want to Part of clarification Yes Uh Mr Chairman
I thought you were going to do these in May You're you're taking votes on the citizens amendments now And I thought I thought you were going to do that in May We can do it now or we could do it as full council in May but I can't really talk to the audience So I'm going to stop We could we could
table all these right now for the May meeting if if everybody's okay with that But the next planning board meeting is when may 1st May 1st And I would feel more comfortable hearing the planning board deliberations and then talking about this in our in our special meeting than voting on this tonight to be honest
with you But we can if we chose we can talk about it without voting on it We can talk about it Correct So that's helpful You any counselor here can make a motion to table and I'm okay with that or we could talk about it
I would like to talk about this one Okay Just as a prelude to May 8th Um I'm all for limiting uh AUS to
one per lot and not uh not allowing uh any more than one That's just my title Um I didn't second that sentiment I think uh just from hearing from the public and different people
that development is important but doing it in a practical reasonable way is also important and I think we need to look at this carefully and say this does make sense The state gives us the ability to allow one ADU on a lot Um it's more than enough for that one lot So I know
housing's a crisis for a lot of people Um but I also believe in responsible development and um so yeah I I sentiment that second that feeling Sure Um I I am not in favor of this Um I completely agree that we need to do
things that make sense and don't change the character of the city and you know give people control over their property Um and I just don't see a need to limit ADU construction this way I think it's extremely unlikely that there will be lots of the people are trying to build
more than than 1801 So maybe it's just a non-issue anyway Um but I think to me this um as someone said in public comment this is a a pretty blunt instrument like you know one limiting to one per lot when we have a thousand different kinds of lots in this town and there may be a lot that it actually
makes sense for Um and and as I always say with all of these you know zoning proposals I don't want us to back ourselves into a corner Um because you know we're trying to prevent something that's not really going to happen anyway but it also prevents um you know some some small changes that might actually benefit us and allow us to build a
little bit more housing Um I will also say that I've been looking for evidence um I've been looking to the research I've been talking to people across Massachusetts and and and other states actually um for like evidence that of of that some of the things that people are
are afraid of have actually come to pass anywhere that you know people are buying up lots to build lots of ADUs that developers are coming in and and purchasing lots to to do this and it's just it's not there over 90% of ADUs are
built by you know the homeowner It is as several people have noted very expensive to do So very few people actually are able to do it can afford to do it The people who do do it are usually building one for grandma to live in or for their you
know children you know when they get married to be able to live close by when you know there isn't other housing available in town which is you know certainly a problem we have here Um and you know the the postcards that we all get if we're homeowners about buying our property and all that they are annoying
I get them too Those are from people who want to flip you know put a new um coat of paint on your house and flip it They're those are not coming from people who are looking to take over and build lots of new um you know buildings on it
to rent them out or sell them in some complicated way Um so there's just there's no evidence that that these things are actually happening if if I'm missing something which is certainly possible I would love to be pointed toward the evidence that that these things actually are happening but I have not been able to find it And I think
that there is a fair and I understand the fears right like I'm not dismissing that at all I just I there's no proof that those things are actually happening And I think that there's a fair amount of fear bunkering happening Um you know so I'm all in favor of finding compromises I'm all in favor of um you
know understanding what really is happening across the state and nationwide when we're looking at these issues Um but I I would vote against this Okay So I think for me what a lot of this ADU stuff is
about is quality of life for the person who would be living in such an ADU How I see this and I would disagree Rachel I I feel like I've come across a bunch of stuff online whether that's on YouTube on
Facebook on a bunch of all these like investor bros and people who flip properties and people who you know do the bare minimum in order to cram as many people as they can into one property so that they can capitalize on it
And not only from what I just hear from them where they see like these AD ADU regulations kind of deregulating the housing market making it more profitable I I also just think about a person who lives in an ADU right
if there's multiple in one in one lot what kind of a quality of life does that person have well I I think it's a genuine concern that I have and that well other people
are also talking about that we don't want to be packing people in like sardines just so that we can say "Hey they have a roof over their head." I think we can do better I think there's better ways we can use our zoning laws
to increase our housing stock I don't think allowing as many ADUs as possible is the way to go for it So I would support this but also I think it'd be okay if we
uh maybe didn't take a vote on this tonight and we just talked about it I think that's yours right i'd like to discuss them all now and then we'll we'll take a vote at the special meeting Any other comments on this one
all right we're going to move on to order number FY25080 The city council of Greenville amend the zoning ordinance chapter 200 section 200-56 accessory dwelling units subsection D accessory dwelling unit standards paragraph 2 by adding the following language section
200-56 accessory dwelling units is hereby further amended in subsection D accessory dwelling unit standards subpart 2 by adding at the end thereof the following new language an ADU created within a principal dwelling unit shall be considered one ADU on a purpose with on a lot for the purpose of this
section Um I'm going to start with my comments on this I I don't agree with this one I think um if I want to convert a single family house into a duplex or multif family house I should be able to by right like the planning board has stood by for so long
Um so for me if I if I have a multifamily house and you if I'm correcting the planning board and I will ask them to make sure I'm saying this correctly From what I understand if you have a multif family dwelling then automatically the ADU is by special
permit You can't just get an ADU on a multif family propert And that was because it's an unprotected ADU It's not a single family home So I don't really see the need for this personally Um that's my opinion Anybody else i feel the same Um I think
that yeah it would become a duplex which subjected to different rules and regulations and procedures um that are in place for this exact reason that you know we don't want people to be able to kind of skirt around um the rules and and build extra units But um yeah I just
I don't think that we need to restrict That's why any other counselors I'm in agreement Yeah I think I' I'd have to think about this a little bit more Sure Able to have a better understanding of what the
implications would be All right I'm going to move on to the next order Order number FY25-081 City Council moved that it be ordered that the city council of Greenfield amend the zoning ordinance chapter 200 section 200-56 accessory dwelling units subsection D accessory dwelling unit
standards by adding the new paragraph 11 as follows section 200-56 accessory dwelling units is hereby further amended in subsection D accessory dwelling unit standards by adding after subpart 10 the following new subp part 11 in order to enable the development of housing units for low-inccome individuals the Greenfield
housing authority shall provide deed restrictive rental housing vouchers to the extent that they are available to low-inccome households that limits their shared costs to not exceed 30% of their income as determined by the Greenfield Housing Authority I'm going to be honest with you this one just confuses me So
um I'm not sure that it's necessary for us tell people how they have to rent their property Um I'm a small government kind of guy so for me this one just seems like overstepping our boundaries as a as a
council Um I would entertain this if there was some language that said if the primary dwelling is a rental property and not occupied by the owner um then the ADU should be subject to this Um but if the owner occupies that building you
know he should be able to rent it to whoever he wants Any other count thank you So I think with this what what it's attempting to do is to
specify who these ADUs would be for And I think the I the intention is is is correct in that I would also like us to
see ADUs be for people who who need them So we're not just cramming people in just just to do it Um and I think the having the the vouchers is is is something that
would that would enable low-inccome people to be able to actually afford them Um but I do understand your sentiments about if somebody's not actually living there or somebody's actually living there and us restricting what their essentially their
home feels like Um but I think the the idea that and this is kind of something that I wanted to do with uh with another zoning thing is if we can clarify and
prioritize low-income housing which is what I think the whole housing conversation is about uh I'm going to support that All right any other counselors um yeah I'll just say I mean I really appreciate
this proposal um in that you know I think that we are all on the same page that we want to encourage you know whatever ways we possibly can for for particularly low-income people to have more access to housing I think that's great Um I appreciate the intention behind it Um my concern about this is
that you know I think the the Greenfield Housing Authority already is working hard and doing really good work with very limited means Um and you know they already do offer a lot of um these kind of rental housing vouchers Um I think as
as was mentioned in public comment you know their funding streams are in question right now Um and I would be pretty concerned about um first of all I don't I don't really think it's the business of this council to tell the gha how to operate Um so that's kind of the
the basic thing for me But um I also think that you know they're entering tricky times A lot of their funding is federal and I think that we need I think they need the the flexibility to do you know what they need to do since they're the professionals administering these
voucher programs Um and I wouldn't want us to to put restrictions on that because I don't think we know better than them Thank you Nobody else We'll move on to the last one Order number
FY25-082 City Council moved that be ordered that the city council of Greenfield amend the zoning ordinance chapter 200 section 200-56 accessory dwelling unit subsection C applicability paragraph 2 by adding new language as follows Section 200-56 accessory dwelling units is
further amended in subsection C applicability by adding the end of subpart 2 the following new language Any ADU on a lot which is not protected use ADU as defined in section 200-56 of this orientation shall be subject to special permit pursuant to 760 CMR
71035 for the use of land structures for the additional ADUs Any ADU which require a special permit shall require a site plan review by the planning board prior to construction pursuant to section 200-8.4B1 of the ordinance and in
confirmation with 760 CMR 71.033B5 33 3B5 Okay so this one here um this is a tricky one cuz if we get rid of if we pass the first one and this one's really to me
not applicable right um but if we don't pass the first one and we allow multiple ADUs on a property I do believe that a site plan review should be required and a special permit right we already require the special permit and maybe the planning
board can answer this If there's a special permit process does it automatically require site plan review is this redundant language yes as a special permit does require a site plan review So in terms this is redundant language
Well this is saying shall be subject to a special permit If that's already uh required then this the uh site plan review would not be have to be specified So my belief on this one is if you're building more than one ADU it
should be by special permit and require site plan review So if that does that for us I fully support this one Any other comments yeah I agree with that I think sometimes the special permit is thrown around as like kind of
this like scary thing I feel like it's a way we have these regulations and and processes in place so that there's due process and we're doing things the correct way making sure that
everything is safe and secure and to the wishes of of of a stable community So I I Thank you Any other counselors i'll say I mean I I also don't think that this is particularly necessary but
I do hear everybody's concerns and it's a you know I appreciate the effort to compromise um and find something that everyone could live with So I'd be willing to support it Okay All right That's going to close our section on motions We're going to move on to the discussion phase where we have
some guests here Um do we need to vote to motion to table please i don't think we have to Or is that just I don't even think we have to vote on it We I wrote a note in here saying we're not voting on this for this reason because we want to get a planning board deliberations and I
think if we table it I don't know if it could go to Yeah I'd rather not table it Not such a thing Let it be Great Thank you I'm still learning myself I think I would know all the rules by now but
um yeah So planning board thank you for your time Thank you Thank you Yeah So this next agenda item is something that you know um was brought to my attention by some people
uh wait I'm gonna wait I can I'm also thinking before 9:00 We can do it I think we can make that happen My wife can speak seriously Are
you really such confus I support some of the stuff but I'm like dude can we just be clear We're going to get back to this because I want I want to get out of here like everybody else Right So um the discussion item
examined the possibility of the creation of a parking benefit district in the central commercial district This was kind of kicked around um during some of my meetings with the GBA and different things we could do to help improve downtown Um I know Amy also was thinking
about this down the road but getting it kind of implemented has always been a bit of a challenge So I invited him here to kind of talk about it So if you guys want to come to the table that'd be great And um I'll give you a little I'll give you a little background on what I think it
means And they could correct me because I'm probably not the professional at this So um a parking benefit district is I believe it's part of Mass General Law where you're allowed to take it an area parking So for us it be the central commercial district parking and use all
or some of that revenue for downtown improvement projects Um that money would be put in a separate fund from right now any parking money goes to our general fund Um that money would be put in a separate fund at which point there's a different couple different ways
according to Mass General law to handle that allocation of funds You can either point it to somebody or you can point it to a committee Um in the discussions I had I'm I kind of am leaning towards the committee approach where you have some local business owners You have the director of economic planning and
housing I think I got that right Close enough Close enough Economic development Community economic economic development Um so you know we had already had some backdoor conversations with the mayor about this She seems pretty open to this
idea So now it's a matter of hearing about it getting the mayor to sign off on it and then the council voting on it as a whole Right So we we've got a long way to go but I just wanted to get everybody up the loop um with where we're at and what we're trying to do here So I'm going to pass it on to you
folks and you can explain this a lot better than I can and the benefits of it Um and I know they're really excited So I'll also say the mayor's on Zoom so Oh yeah we'll recognize the mayor as well Yep She was on video for a second Okay At
any time mayor if you want to speak feel free So um Councelor Healey uh and all of you thank you for bringing this up I think Council Healey came in and talked with me about it Um and I've done a little
research about it I think the the his thoughts um if I'm sharing this correctly were you know to benefit how um maybe our downtown was looking So to use um some of the parking revenue in
the downtown area Um I agree I agree I think that's a that would be a great idea People come in and that's where they pay their fees to So it would be um you know uh there'd be a winning part
of that for the business community downtown Um I just want to say a couple of things about that It actually doesn't really go into the general fund Um so it goes into one of the journals that's sort of set aside I I was just looking
while you were talking I'm not sure what the number is but I can find it Um it's um you know we have several journals where they actually put money So I have some I I think I would like to
put a certain sum of money towards that because I think anything that we can do towards beautifying our downtown would be a wonderful thing Um by the way we're having a cleanup day downtown April 25th in the afternoon for anybody who wants
to come which will be working with the business association and and the sheriff's office and any city councils that want to come So I think this is something that our business owners would really like I also have to say that both this year and last year um we've used
$350,000 of parking money to um uh to balance the budget So we are using some one-time funds because that's sort of what people do when they have some issues Um as you know we've been up
against it a little bit financially Um so there are certain ways that you can do it I've read a little bit about it Um some communities have tried it Um I think Reading does it and um
Brookline and I certainly would be willing to put a sum of money like 50,000 or something like that into that But when Derek Council Healey and I talked we thought about having the whole thing managed by uh
a a committee I think would be making uh a fair amount of work that some of the things are already taken care of like people for so the uh Rachel I can see your face I'm not explaining this carefully I love it so in some in the
language that's written um there's a a statute uh written very small where is this this is what it says I'm going to read this to you for those you haven't heard section 22A and a half This is in Massachusetts
general law A city or town may establish one of our parking benefit districts as a geographically defined area in which parking revenue collected therein may be designated in whole or in part for use in that district through a dedicated
fund in accordance with the purposes and uses listed in 22A It may be managed by a body designated by the municipality including but not limited to a business improvement district or main street
organization So uh I guess I want to hear from more people what they their thoughts on it but I have some reservations about taking too many parts of it away from the city Um
uh councelor Healey has suggested the whole thing would be paying for the people that we have working in parking and I thought they're actually hired They run through HR Their checks come from here We have accounts set up with the people that do our meters and kiosk
So there would be a lot involved in changing all of the financial uh pathways that we use to do that And yet I do want to to invest more in the downtown to to to show that we as a city
that this means a lot to us our main street I and then I thought to myself now what areas because it it states in every city that has it and there really are only a few that I found but I'll stand to be corrected Um we'd have to define where that was Um I would think
it would be Main Street it That would be me and you'd have to define from where to where and um but I'm going to be um I'm going to turn this over to anybody else who has questions or thoughts
Those are on the table Um if I had a little bit of just nuance absolutely I I have seven million thoughts and I could talk for eight hours on this However so I'm just going to start um with nuance which is the parking benefit district
can only use parking revenue and parking revenue so far as I can tell includes um meters kiosks and passport The passport app income it does not include parking tickets And I don't believe though I
would want to check um that it includes um uh parking passes Thank you Passes God I just had it as it's too late in the day for me for to be doing this So it's not all of Greenfield's parking revenue It
is that select um portion Uh to give you a sense of what that is that portion meter's um kiosk and passport income for FY24 was about $244,500 So it's not an insignificant amount Um but it also is a fluctuating
amount and as we tweak parking and make changes in the fees and the lots and all of that that amount is in flux Um so I just wanted to clarify that and I also it might be helpful a little bit of history of how Greenfield has interacted
with the concept of a parking benefit district because I feel like this has circled the airport a few times and maybe we're coming into land now which would be great Um the back in 2021 so immediately postcoid Greentown Greenfield did a downtown revitalization
study that deliberate downtown which probably most of you were here for which recommended one of the things that Greenfield should look at was a parking benefit district which is great Um my predecessor MJ started talking to Furcog um to look into doing a study to see
whether a parking benefit district would make sense for Greenfield And what they determined was before they could even get into the parking benefit district conversation they needed to do a parking study to get a handle on what Greenfield's parking revenue and usage and all of those things were which is what precipitated
um the 2023 parking study That parking study made exactly zero mention of a parking benefit district So in advance of this meeting we called um Stantech was the consultants that did that parking study my department reached out to them and said "Hey fun fact." Um
you didn't mention parking benefit district Was that because you thought it was like a terrible idea or just there were other things that you prioritized and they said they were just prioritizing other action items for Greenfield at that moment in time but they thought that a parking benefit district was a good idea Um so this
feels to me like a great time for it to be coming before us because I think we have albeit traveled the loop of talking about it and looking at parking And now um I'm thrilled that the city is open to making this investment I'm going to stop there for a minute but I have a lot of
thoughts about who should handle it Um this is great I'm so thrilled that um this is on the table again Um I'm Hannah Rexen I think I've met everyone um director of the GBA Um okay a couple
things that I want to say about parking benefit districts that can that are is maybe a little more abstract um is around the value of messaging And so there is certainly the logistics of the parking benefit district Um but it's
taking a portion of revenue that already exists and still using it for the city's benefit So in reality it's a little bit of a shell game right we're sort of just like moving the money around But the thing that a parking benefit district does is it gives us the opportunity to
message to the business community in particular and also our visitor community residents tourists um that we care about the downtown The optics of it are very very positive So you see it as the mayor mentioned in a lot of communities that have been lauded for
their revitalization They don't just have parking benefit districts but if you dig deeper on the press that they got out of that it was incredibly positive It attracts development It attracts business because you're saying on the surface we care about our
downtown and we are willing to invest in it Um and so I think that in and of itself is very valuable And what it also does is it allows us to put some much needed consistency in what we're funding And we can be very specific with a
parking benefit district about what it funds So and to the mayor's question about kind of where we would draw the district I think drawing it around um everywhere that we have those meters So as the mayor said that's Main Street that's some of Federal Street Um you
know it might not touch Deerfield Street and some other areas that we want to work on but it would be enough of a a beginning to really cover that whole downtown core Um and then you can make sure that that money is going to things that like downtown cleanup um public art
different efforts that are very on the surface and very visible and it puts consistent dollars behind that So it's not just you know one year you do a thing and everyone gets excited and then it falls away for lack of funding It gives you something that you can really depend on which I think especially for
our community is so so valuable um because it's that consistency that I think business owners have really been asking to see from the city and this lets us do it um in a very clear way And the other nice thing about it is that it becomes a cyclical benefit when we clean
up the downtown when we add public art when we really pay attention to that main main business hub Again it's attracting tourism It's attracting residents downtown And all of a sudden it quiets all the voices that are out there being like the trash the can't go
downtown It's terrible We quiet all of that We start to attract more visitation That allows us to bring more businesses bring more developments So what we're putting into it we are going to get back 10fold just for making a change on the surface of where that money is going
Yeah I'd like to just add on to that a little bit So the consistency the important thing about that is it allows proper planning right so as you get if you have a consistent allocated fund you could sit and look at the five-year plan the 10-year plan rather than oh we might
have it this year but we might not have it next year And you can't really ever build a execute a good plan because there's so much uncertainty right so that's the only comment I wanted to make on that So any other comments from any other counselors or I forgot one thing about the typical benefit I just want to
say um if we set up the parking benefit district to be a um percentage of revenue the increased visitation increases the amount of money we have to spend That was what I wanted to say about bus local benefit Yeah that's kind of the approach I was hoping to ask for uh in further discussions with the mayor
And you know I like to just have a set percentage whether it was 15% 20% you know and and what it does is it goes up and down with revenue right so if you have a bad year your PB your parking benefit
district money goes down but the city is not taking a hurting because they're over overfunding when they can't afford to fund it right so I I think and if you have really good year parking well guess what it's a bonus for downtown right and now as you start improving downtown you
get more parking you get more people paying it Hopefully you keep seeing this exponential incline in revenue right so or at least a linear one I'll take linear I won't go extra I'll take linear but anything's better than nothing So um I thought this was a great idea and I
really wanted to just kind of have this meeting to talk hear everybody's opinion and then I'd like the counselors of this committee especially to think about this then email me some suggestions ideas so when I have further meetings with Amy Hannah and the mayor I have your input
too So it's not just a one-man approach to this or one person approach I should say Um and that's all I have to say I'm going to shut up for a while This seems like a no-brainer but go ahead Go No no no Please I I'm just like why haven't we
done this before but this makes sense because it's like I mean you're going to a place right you're like "Okay I have to pay." But you know that where you're visiting where you're shopping your money is actually being spent there Yes I'm like "This is a good thing." But I did have a
question Um is the parking garage included in this or not yes Oh okay Cool Nice Yeah And oh just another thing What is like one I know you mentioned artwork but what's like something else that
could be that that could be benefited from this could it like like a sidewalk or if there's like you can do streetscape sidewalks trash cans It's a little I'll play the I'll play
the slightly advocate that the um the phrasing that they use is um you can use the revenue for um acquisition installation maintenance and operation of parking meters parking
payment blah blah blah whole bunch of very specific things and then improvements to the public realm So I think so long as you define your improvements to the public realm in a way that everybody is comfortable with um that my mind
includes trash cans as public is good I think they is great in this one but I I think it's important to just um up that language Um we had a group uh last year uh that
started and they're going to do this again this year the Blooming Greenfield um they got the whiskey barrels and um uh there were some great people involved with that and they planted them and they were I think you may have seen them in front of a lot of businesses on
on Main Street and we're anticipating doing that again But um you know perhaps a little bit of that could go that as well But I just want to say council Healey I think this is a great idea to bring forward I'm glad that
you're on the the GBA or the representative to the GBA Is that Thank you Go ahead Um one other thing that I think can be helpful and there is some messaging around how we present it um is
it can also potentially be leveraged to be matched by business owners or developers in different cases The example I'll give is the plywood that has been on Main Street on um what was formerly the Country Jewelers Building the kind of whitewashed brick I'm I'm
blanking on the number um right at this moment but there's some plywood over it that would look just fantastic with a mural on it And so you know when we really start making some of these improvements and making our investment really clear I think it becomes much
easier for myself at the GBA um or Amy to say to a developer "Hey how about you know if you throw a couple hundred dollars in we throw a couple hundred dollars in and we put a really nice mural up here painted by the Boy Scouts or whatever." um all of a sudden it becomes something that we can really
leverage to get financial buy in as well Um though it doesn't have to be that way A lot of to the mayor's point um Blooming Greenfield what we do it's for the business community A lot of folks are volunteering their time to plant those flowers A lot of folks are um
donating flowers dirt and so on Um but if there were some money behind an effort like that we could really like take it to the next level So I think Yeah No no Yeah also same point but slightly different um in terms of leveraging these dollars that um my
department frequently is looking at grants we're applying for that require a match component and it's very hard to find that cash match Um these are dollars that we could likely leverage um and use as a match in grants that could then go into this work as well So I
think it could be a great tool um beyond whatever the dollar amount is Um yeah never thought from that perspective Great idea Yeah thanks in here Honorary honorary fun Two things to
support what they were saying One is I think you should always when you spend the money make sure it's spent on something you can put a sign on that it's brought to you by your parking dollars not a section of pavement that no one's ever going to know And also I think that when you have a limited funding stream especially in an
experimental phase you should leverage not spend the money Something I always tell people too So I think it's a really good absolutely philosophy I love this I think it's a fantastic idea I don't see any downsides Thank you for bringing it forward Um I
think you know as we've talked about before so much of I think you know something that's standing in Greenfield's way is the messaging problem Um and so anything that we can do that will have you know real material benefit but also even more so a big messaging benefit and just like change
the vibe of downtown I love the idea of like the signage and all of that I think it's fantastic Take the credit y'all also like how it's not like the tickets so people are like "Oh my god they're revitalizing by paying off tickets."
It's not the money Yeah So no it's true Yeah Maybe the sign can say brought to you by your complying Greenfield resident Yeah Sorry
Just one other thing I want to say too I think um something that it can also engender is more business owners encouraging people to come downtown because now they recognize that that benefit is coming back to them again And so where we have had a lot of business
owners who I think are happy that people come to their business but maybe not necessarily encouraging of their return um very vocally we can push the message a little bit and say "Hey the more people that come downtown the more we can do down here." And all of a sudden
business owners are really gunning for that with you Um as opposed to things like um business improvement districts um which I can't say too loud which sort of tax the business owner And so this is something I think when you put it forward the business owners are so
psyched that you're not suggesting something on their back but saying to them hey you encourage people to come down here park downtown this benefits everyone Then you've got allies in that That's a great point Perfect
I don't want to get into too much specifics on how we're going to move This was more of a let's have the discussion and learn about it and then think about it and then let's recollect our thoughts put it on paper and this could definitely be reconvened in
another meeting in the future Um once we had the chance to have more conversation uh I'm a true believer in you shouldn't rush anything Um even though I'm really excited about this I um so if counselors don't have any other questions on I I'd stay here all night
but um if counselors don't have any more questions on what this is about and what we're trying to do I'd say um let's move on and go take our thoughts at home and you know send emails if you have questions Hannah and Amy are both really good about answering emails
What I would love to encourage you take time and think about it and whatever However it would it would be great not to beat this um circling the airport metaphor to death but um I do think it's a great idea I do think it's a little bit of a no-brainer We don't have to start with doing all the things all at once but I think to get it launched and
underway would send a really great message um to a downtown that could use a really great message So I'd love to get it going get it going after a little deliberate That's a question for the mayor too I think she's still on Yes Yeah
So with budget season being around the corner it how do we do how do we do this without getting messy like we probably couldn't get this in this fiscal year's budget I would imagine Or is there still an avenue to make that happen
um well my guess would be that uh that would have to come through as a financial order We do things in the middle of the year This isn't actually we could put something maybe towards it this year and then incorporate it next year if there's something we all agree on but we could
do a financial order anytime during the year for something and if it was going to be part of a you know that wouldn't be actually part of the operating budget So I I I don't think the timing on that matters Council Healey to to uh answer that Perfect Thank you so much I just have
one other question Um I mean it sounds like you're saying that it's a no-brainer Um which it sounds like it you know is to all of us I guess I'm just curious if you have heard of any downsides or any challenges that have come up because of these Yes But it has
to do with governance Yes Can I say one thing yeah you could absolutely Okay Um the sort of committee model that um councelor Healey is talking about I think is beneficial because the one downside um that you've read about not
only with parking benefit districts but sort of with committees um in general is that if it's housed fully under the municipality you run into a lot of procurement a lot of challenges when it comes to certain projects Um and I think
one of the things about public art cleanup things like that is you want it to be fairly nimble So a lot of city oversight but not necessarily housed solely within the city can be helpful And I think that's part of how you write it as well
This is where we divert The door's open Here we are Handing glove I have 700 thoughts but I'll keep them concise Um on the nimble procurement piece I could be wrong but these are municipal dollars Whether they live with a committee the municipality
or transfer to uh an independent organization So I'm not sure that the procurement challenge is legal they follow the dollars Um and for the procurement I was thinking about this before this um meeting and unless we're getting into like a big scale
construction project I'm not sure that there's a procurement issue that really is going to hang up a project I feel like like my department does sidewalk painting for example Um and it's it is not way by procurement because it's
relatively small dollars and it's again not construction Um I have concerns around the committee format So I think that the dollars um should be administered by my department full disclosure Um and I think that for
a variety of reasons um high level is um my department already staffs a multitude of committees including local cultural council crossroads cultural district parking and transportation um and something all of which tie into sustainable green field CPC and all of
these committees are exactly the entities that deal in this um both parking and downtown placemaking We're also on the board of the GBA and um engage with business and property owners and I'm concerned that creating a committee is going to um create a a lot
of work um we staff a lot of committees and there's agendas and meetings and open meeting law and um all of that administrative labor that goes on with a committee um that I'm not sure is needed for our particular department when we're
already engaged in these conversations and I can't fathom administering a parking benefit district without talking to all of those people Um so I have a a worry I can say a lot more about that but um but I don't think the procurement piece is the hangup Yeah Yeah So
procurement if the project's under $10,000 it doesn't require procurement is how I understand match a lot Um and I actually wrote Senator Commer an email trying to see if she would increase it to 100,000 because I think 10,000's too low You know you can't buy anything for 10,000 anymore um 100,000 it would save
municipalities a lot of money because you're not going out for procurement for these small projects but that's her problem she never answered me um for the record um secondly the only problem I see with housing it and this is my personal opinion the only problem I see with
housing it under one department within the municipality is there's no guarantee that in 10 years you're still going to be here and whoever and whoever replaces you might not have the same openness and willing to help distribute these funds And I
feel like there's checks and balances with a committee where like if you have voting members that are voting on what you're doing with the money then it it gets it It's more the voice is represented more distributed more evenly right so sometimes I get stuck on my
tongue So excuse me Um I think faster than I talk Um yeah so that's my only concern with that But I mean and I guess my question about that would be is there a way to kind of thread the needle and write something into it at the outset
that would you know protect what we're trying to do with exactly those concerns in mind without it necessarily i very much would create a bond regardless of who sat in my seat Um or in city hall it should it should
live on some guard rails around it regardless I am just again concerned about the the labor that creating yet another committee um I can see that creates Oh
I'm happy to see something written where it was in conjunction with you know our our business partners like the business association or something like that But I too we just formed another yet another
committee and um we formed a committee for something that's going to come to fruition It took a year and over a year and I appreciate everybody's hard work on it but I um you know Christian puts his whole
heart and soul into the parking I thought we have people there that do that that could be held accountable Um no it could change Amy could not be there I could not be here But this is a smart electorate They get very smart
people in here And you know um I I think that that would work I I would I love working with Hannah And I think there would be something that we could do that I think would maybe be the best of both worlds And I think perhaps that
might be in how it's composed But I would like to go forward because I fear if we are making a committee it'll be two years from now as well Um so I mean that is something that I have seen and and I no slight to the folks that are on that it
they're good people trying to get something great done and it can be arduous and and I think we s we have an instinctive knowledge of what we'd like to do there and we want to invest it back into the downtown and I think this would be a great forum to
bring it back here and say because I'm actually sitting here thinking um you know how far out you want to go here I think it should be clearly defined but I think I'd like to bring it you know more to what Amy said actually
Okay So we have a lot of good ideas here I think we to the brainstorming table and then from there we kind of get this thing moving along Um I will keep it on the agenda for next month and we can kind of talk about where we're at and where we think we're going to be and
hopefully you know let's say April maybe by June we have this figured out right you know that's the hope Love it Great Um I want to thank both of you for your time and the mayor for her time I know you're
busy and it's getting late Um and we look forward to future discussions with the both of you because you're a vital part of this committee Um and you're not even on it right whenever you do show we always learn this thing We love being invited
Yeah So careful what you wish for Yeah On your agenda set up though Uhhuh Right But yeah I don't know why it wasn't on there I did I did specially you did receive email No no it was on that was very reasonable ADU
conversation wise Yeah I I will say with that like there's a lot of public here too Um my my mistake for trying to do this on such a busy night but I really wanted to get it out there and get it going Um no this great we need it I'm going to move on to item which is next
meeting is May 13 2025 at 6:30 to the hall meeting room second floor zoom hybrid unless otherwise posted and if I get a motion to adjurnn to thanks for [Music] Part: 2
welcome everybody Today is Tuesday April 8th 2025 It is 6:32 We are the Greenfield Conservation Commission and we are presenting tonight's hearing via hybrid Um in
person is via the John Zan Community Center but you can also join us online via Zoom Um this meeting is being recorded and should any technical interruption to the meeting occur and the meeting is suddenly ended it will
not be resumed and all items will be automatically continued to the next scheduled meeting date which is two weeks from today Contact the conservation agent uh Jessica for more information This meeting is being recorded by the conservation commission
If any other persons present are doing the same you must notify the chairperson at this time Is anybody else recording Okay Not hearing anything I'll assume we're the only ones recording So I will call this meeting to order I will
take a roll call of members present Um we have Elizabeth our chair I'm here Great Uh Erica uh I I don't think I can hear you Oh I'm
here Uh Emily I'm here Is that everybody that we have Okay And then we also have our agent Jessica Um the first item on our agenda is approval of
meeting minutes from March 25th 2025 Um uh just a statement approved meeting minutes will become available to the public on our website on the next business day following this meeting Do we have
any motion on approval of meeting minutes Also move second Okay we have a motion and a second I'll take a roll call and then we'll do a quick discussion Um Elizabeth
hi Erica hi Emily hi I I am also an I Does anyone have any comments on the meeting minutes from last time Can I can I just
say don't we have to comment before we before we vote on it Did we just vote that to approve it I thought we did So but anyway just a comment though I don't I didn't have any comments on those I I was happy with how they were I didn't
see any changes needed Everybody's good Yep All right Motion was made seconded No comments Uh let's move on to the first item on our agenda So we do have a public
hearing Um continued this was continued from March 25th This is for a request for an amended order of conditions improvements at the Greenfield Water Pollution Control Facility at 384 Deer Deerfield Street maps
1415 lots 3A-1 This is D file 168-360 Um I don't know Jessica do you want to open this up Yes Uh can you hear me Okay
I will uh share my screen If you recall last week we uh discussed or last meeting sorry that we discussed uh these updated plans and had decided that we needed more information on the cut and
fill calculations Uh the applicant stated that um it would be greater flood storage volume but we wanted to see the calculations So this is for bordering land subject to flood right Correct And
uh so this this is the updated plan just to um uh jog the commission's memory Uh and we did receive the cut and fill calculations and um which are in the G
drive and there is um someone from Tai Bond on the meeting tonight His name is Zachary Wland I believe it's pronounced So he's correct
Hi Zach He's here to discuss um or any questions that the commission may have Do you want to just give us a quick overview Zach of these data that you're presenting Yeah absolutely Yeah So the quick or the the summary is is that uh
the elevation the the the uh original slab uh that we had uh was still dropped that uh that additional u one inch and then the uh additional fill volume uh uh that got um added was was that uh
because the building is shifting further away from from the catch basin the the slope from uh from the face of the uh building to the cache basin was extended So so so there was more fill volume associated with that that got added on or that got that is removed Uh
so that there there additional volume for that Um the higher incremental uh volume that that is shown from the previous uh iteration Um is from the uh the shift in the
um the order control pad uh that that got shifted further down uh in order to accommodate that space And so because of how the grading in that area was for for when you all visited it it dips down a little bit uh that additional uh
incremental volume of fill got added on So the total the total uh uh c the total compensorary storage volume uh went from 28.5 1.8.03 03 from the original uh NOI
and uh order of conditions to uh 60 68 60s something or is it uh where's my email Is that different from the figures we have on the screen here Oh uh so uh it's the uh the uh
difference between 175 and and and 106 is the is that commencary storage Yes Uh any other any other questions for how those got calculated or that you would like to see
Could we see on the map where these um come from I I'm I think I remember but not quite sure Yeah Um I have them up too if you want me to share Uh Jessica Yes sure Where where's that share button Where
Why don't I see it It will pop up I just have to Oh gotcha I don't know why my screen's being weird There we go Share Yeah So the so
um so the building shifted from from being flush with the with the existing structure uh back about 15 feet and so the actual fill volume that changed So uh this is a profile view that I that I that I sketched to kind of show what's
going on here So I don't I don't think it's sharing quite yet Oh that's Oh because I didn't finish sharing the button Can you see it now Yes Okay Yeah So this Yeah So as Jessica
had shown before this is the the new bio expansion building that that we had we had talked about before Originally it was flush with the front of the building and it shifted backwards And so um as part of that I have this like profile view of
kind of the the changes that end up happening So this black line was the initial grade and the existing cache basin that was here Uh this red face is is is showing where the uh original NOI submitted on and and this additional and
this red dotted line was the the initial slope slope that we had when we shifted it back the in order to maintain that slope to to the existing grade of the catch basin All this like light blue area is the additional compensatory storage that we're seeing
Um in addition the building itself got got a five feet shorter So the frost walls that made up that that that additional 5t are no longer there and so were were
are also taken out of the calculation So by shorter do you mean the the portion at the towards the top of the image not there Is it darker rectangle that's going to be there or correct Yeah Yes
The this darker rectangle the B the extension building got shorter and then the building shifted back a bit back from back from the so the original
building was here So it it shifted back and then also also got shorter as part of that Okay And your your table shows the flood
storage by one foot elevations Correct Correct Yes Yep And that was my comment last time So that was that's good Yep Yeah And if we look back at the original NOI the elevations that the the the the um table itself that um just gonna so
I'm just going to the oh the in the original table that was as part of it uh all all this elev all the elevation changes were happening between 31 and 32 and now it's between 33 and 30
32 do that isn't a change in the actual elevations like relative to to the surrounding uh grades of of the existing grade Uh the original submission was based off NGVD uh 29 uh and and and the site site drawings which was all in that
31 to 32 range uh after afterwards uh we got some additional data from uh from site uh elevation measurements and to show that there that they're actually at this 132 level So so like the in order
to be more accurate the the entire site elevations were were were updated We should have asked that during the original just so the commission knows We should whenever there's work in bordering land subject to flood or BLSF we should always make sure that the plans are based off of the NFIP data Um
and I can't remember if we asked about that in the original review It's kind of late now but um just going forward we should always make sure the bordering land subject to flood elevations based off NF NFIP What's that stand for The National Flood Insurance Rate maps So not just like a
mass GIS spatial data line It needs to be like an actual confirmed elevation So this you're saying uh Zach is more accurate Correct Yes To the actual uh like uh GPS actual uh verified in the
field measurements Correct Do any other commissioners have any other questions or comments one of you No I think that's incidental sound Hang on I don't have
Sorry Emily Did you have a question or a comment Just saying that I don't have any more questions or comments All right Do we have a motion or do we actually We should open this up to the to the public right This is a public hearing is
not Is it not This is a public hearing Okay Yes Do we have anyone from the public who wants to ask any questions of the applicant Okay I'm I'm not hearing anyone
Um if the commissioners don't have any other questions or comments and nobody from the public has any questions or comments are we ready for emotion We can talk about conditions after I think right Or do we want to talk about conditions first Uh Erica that was one of your questions before Do
we want to talk about conditions before or after we motion I felt like we usually do after but after we motion but not take the vote I think Yeah Okay Gotcha When do we close Do we need to close the hearing first I don't I don't remember either All
right I'll make a motion to close the public hearing just in case I'll second Okay we have a motion and a second I I guess I don't take a roll call We take com We uh talk about conditions right No I don't have any Well that was just closing the
public hearing wouldn't look So now we make a motion on Yeah the What is the What is the request made The uh request was was just to amend the order conditions with the updated plan So really they were just letting us know
that there was a slight change in plans making sure it was all good and you know kind of going through the motions of having the permit now be for their updated plans instead of the the previous ones right I make a motion to approve their updated
plans uh with the new calculations and uh for the water sewage plan right 384 dear A second
Okay we have a motion and a second Uh this is for D file 168-360 Um I I can't imagine we're going to need to include any additional special conditions right
It seems straightforward They they answered our concerns They gave us documentation of what the change was and that it's beneficial or it's towards the you know increasing the storage capacity Um so I don't I don't see a need for any further conditions Okay Okay I guess I'll just
take a roll call then Um Erica hi Emily I and Elizabeth hi I am also an I Thank you so much Zach and Ty and Bond for joining us tonight and for doing those extra calcs I know
it was extra exercise but um we appreciate it for the record Yeah thank you All right let's see what is the next thing on our agenda Uh oh we have uh new business
So certificate of compliance for 125 Mohawk Trail This is D file number 168-0323 This expired in July of 2021 Um did we already talk about this
Is there like a talling extension that would apply to that or uh I wasn't around when we talked about this but um they are trying So the the permit was for um a hotel and they never
built it So this is that empty lot that's next to the gas station on the way to the Rotary from from our side of I guess the gosh east Um so they're
trying to just close it out because they they have new plans um hopeful plans for that lot Uh so um I went there I took pictures and it's just it's just an empty lot Um the they
did tear down I don't know what hotel was there before Do you guys know Johnson's well Johnson was a roadway or something hotel six or Yeah So now it's just an empty lot here I'll share my screen So they
didn't So is this this is the request for like the work never happened or what is the request Yeah So they had come before you in um 2018 I think Oh okay And um
had very elaborate plans for a new hotel and got the permit and um demoed the current the current at the time building and then um but never moved past that stage Um so that it's
cleared the the lot's empty It's cleared away Um so let me bring up some photos just to show you guys Unfortunately the agent at that time that we have no photos on file I don't I
don't know why Um and also I believe Oh see Brandon you're here tonight to discuss this correct Yes Brandon Lee is
on the Zoom call and is here to answer any questions So let me let me share my screen so I can bring up the photos So again they're in no particular order Um the to my left is that gas
station and I'm looking west So the rotary is like way over there and um behind me is a stream Um and so so there's like a chain link
fence behind me The pavement goes right up to the chain link fence And this is the stream And that's like a drain it a drain I don't know if this is the drain that's like owned by the state that mass
dot because I know they have like some sort of drainage system Um anyway here's the stream So you can see you know I'm in the far east side of the lot Um the fence the
pavement goes right up to the fence And that's like the southern part of the stream where it it just corners and goes further east And this is the gas station The back of the gas station and Mohawk Trails on the
other side I don't even know what this thing is It's like a weird It's like a lid A what Looks like a lid because it's round doesn't it Yeah I think it's like has to do with the
um storm water or something And so well here's the gas station There's like cars parked way over there It's paved right here but then this is all grass grasses and there's a line of trees
Um so yeah you can see that's where the hotel was This is um Mohawk Trail So there are cars being stored um very far from the resource area Um that's looking back Here's the
gas station So that's looking back So that uh stream was just in these trees here And that's that's that So is this a request for a partial certificate of compliance since they did the demo but
they didn't do the construction It's for a full The request is for a full certificate of compliance because they want to develop this lot They want to move forward with the project Um they're not doing the project they did before
Um and there's like there's nothing else Um I don't know how it could be a partial I guess is what I'm thinking
because they didn't do the project Yeah exactly That they didn't do the project So how can it be a full comp compliance if they didn't implement the actual project It's too close They have to close it out And but you can do a close out with a
Can you do a close out with a partial Um it stays on the It stays on as a cloud Like that's what the Yeah you're right That 290 Shelurn that we were talking to last week last meeting Um Right Right So
so it has to either be a full certificate of compliance and there's there's no other alternative It's not an invalid order or ongoing conditions There is an option on the certificate of compliance that says like the work never
began but that isn't really true either So I know it's like a it seems like a gray area because they did the demo but they didn't touch like that area that was paved was paved before right So like
that was untouched Um so I don't know you know right I don't and issuing a COC won't have any bearing on the future permitting Correct Because like what do you mean by that question Like
uh if we issue a COC but the project was never completed um and they come before us again with a new proposal a new notice of intent for a new project um you know having a COC for the old
plans that were never implemented that won't have any bearing on a new permit right they just need this is just paperwork right they just need to have this so the COC will just clear the clouds so that they can move forward with a new project and the new project would have to come back before us okay
and you you the members of commission would have the opportunity to set orders of conditions for what they would like in the resource areas gotcha Okay that's kind of what I thought Yeah this is just a clerical issue We have You can't have two open permits on one parcel So okay
Gotcha Brandon did you want to present anything that we maybe left out I think uh Jessica covered everything pretty well Um just to note the previous hotel was a roadway in Um it was
demolished in 2019 Uh the order conditions was granted in 2018 Um there's you know Google Street View that shows um that the hotel was there in 2018 and then 2019 you can
see that it was demolished Um and uh the owner of the property purchased the property in 2022 So he was not involved in the demolition of the hotel Um as Jessica mentioned there are some uh pavement
that remains the old parking lot Um currently the applicant has purchased the sales agreement with the owner Um and we will be before you to um with a notice of intent and plans and storm
water report uh to develop the property So is this they couldn't have changed hands without closing this out right So It can it follows the property So it's still So has it changed hands It has changed hands The property has changed
hands but it doesn't have to be closed out It just goes along with the property Okay someone has I guess my only question would be under the original order of conditions before we issue a COC under the original order of conditions if there was anything
associated specifically with the demolition and if there was any kind of like asbuilt required as long as those documents have been prepared and provided I mean obviously the project was never constructed but if there's
anything associated with like the site preparation and the original orders I guess that's my question Thank you Uh I looked at those the other day and I didn't see anything about
um what you just said but I I did see stuff about um they wanted to um like breach the no disturb zone and the commission at the time granted them permission to do that
if they did X Y and Z um in another area And so there was stuff like that but because that project that was never started
um then I think it's kind of null and void Uh I just have a question about the parking lot Was there paving that was done after the demolition Brandon No No it was the
existing archot for the hotel That's my understanding Then um I agree with Kristen The only thing we would need to look at is just to make sure that you know the demolition you know went along with whatever the uh the conditions were that
were applied at that time Other than that it seems like um nothing else applies Nothing else was done So we don't have anything to compare So we would just close it out Can I do a screen share Jessica Yes Um so I think
these are the orders Is this is this right So this is the these are the special conditions Seven parking spaces shall be removed um from the eastern portion of the project site adjacent to the intermittent stream to mitigate work
within the 25 foot no disturb And so I'm assuming that did that did not occur No th those I believe were were what was paved where I was walking So those did not get removed because the work didn't start So I guess my only comment to the
commission would be if we want that implemented into the next application let's just make sure we go back and look at this special condition list I don't think it was removing the ones that are currently there I think it was the plans they showed us had a bunch of
ones down there and we said "No you can't have them that close." Oh Erica it's so good we have you on this commission because you remember every You've been on the commission for so long Trees removed that's not relevant Hedro
that's not relevant Um the only question I had was that like any anything in perpetuity that we have to I mean that goes along with the COC but they'd have to Yeah it's a good
That's prior to construction Um approved erosion and sediment control pre-sight meeting uh at any time before during or after construction and until issuance of a COC The commission may require the applicant to modify augment Okay I don't think
that's relevant During construction never happened Uh let's see if there's any [Music] perpetuity There are a lot of special conditions with this I think those are the boiler plate that they tack on after the special
conditions Oh it was called special four So like if you scroll back up under special conditions there's four and then there and it says general conditions and then it's the boiler So there were a couple that continued on even after the
certificate of compliance Did you see that down here Yeah Perpetual the buyer remediation What' you say The what Um All of these conditions shall survive and shall include as continuing
conditions in perpetuity on the certificate of compliance Okay So yes looks like so yeah I'll I can add those um because yeah there's a spot in the certificate of compliance that says ongoing conditions So I can include
those Um and then when you know we do I can remind you guys when we do receive the NOI for the future project that we revisit that um the special conditions
for this Sounds good Yeah And this this was where I found those Um I'll stop my sharing now Just find all my ribbons Move them doesn't know Um okay Uh hey hey Elizabeth
Anybody else have any other questions for the applicant at this time Um Brandon do you guys have a sense of what the time frame is for moving forward on a new plan Uh say in a few weeks is the anticipated
timeline Um but it hasn't been nailed down yet Okay Well we'll we'll hear from you again soon That sounds good All right I make a motion to issue a certificate of compliance for the 125
Mohawk Road That didn't happen seconded Elizabeth Liz you want me to take keep keep going or you want Oh yeah All right We have a motion and a second This is for D file
1680323 Um uh I think I already opened it to the public I'm sorry I'm I'm like forgetting Did I Did I do that Jessica Yeah Oh right Okay Thank you It's been a wicked long day All right Cool So we have a motion and a second We'll do a
roll call vote Um Erica I uh Emily I and Elizabeth I I am also an I Thanks Brandon so much Thank you Thanks everybody We'll see you
soon All right Okay the next thing under new business is Sorry what was that You want to just keep rolling for the rest of the night It's up to you if you want to take over I'm like pretty spent so if you're feeling sharper go that far but I can take over Uh next
up we've got a pesticide application notification letter from Birkshire and Eastern Railroad Okay I'll share my screen Yeah they just uh sent a letter notifying the commission that
uh they will be spraying herbicide mixture of her herbicides Aqua Aquanet I want to say Aquanet Aquanet opens Polaris AC complete an MSO
extra will be applied with low pressure spray application by a truck mounted high rail truck Oh track mounted high rail truck Uh the purpose of the application is to control nuisance vegetation in the ballast portion of the
railroad right away and around switches and signals Um so I yeah received this letter and I'm not sure what the commission what other information the commission
would like to receive when I receive these kind of letters Um I personally would like to see active ingredients included in that just because their trade name doesn't really mean much Okay Um but also why they're selecting that
particular mix of materials and what um you know like are they targeting annual broad leaves are they targeting grass etc There's what are the target species Yeah it's kind of important What are nuisance So I think they're referring us to the operational plan which has the details
Okay that's in the rest of the letter And does the operational plan also detail who will be applying these If there will be licensed you know herbicide applicators licensed in Massachusetts and do we need to get like a pre and post letter notification and
report or I don't know about the OM I don't know where that is letter states who the um herbicide will be applied by as railroad division not the person but the organization and
um so it looks like we can get a copy of the operational plan online or in hard copy from them This is what this is the website they address they gave to receive So I think this is it
We don't have a copy of their OM on file It's the 2025 one It's a year Yeah but we should we should have a copy at the commission I presume this is the new one for this year So they're sending it to us right Or rather they're letting They said that
we could download it here which I it's it's not like obvious to me Um but they also said we could request a hard copy if we wanted but I'm going to reach out to him because I'm not seeing where to download
it I feel like that's not standard practice to say you know refer to our website for our annual permit We should be receiving it in an email We should receive an electronic
copy directly Whoops I agree Kristen Okay So typically you guys do receive these every year from Okay I don't know E Erica what have you seen in years past
You've been on the commission for ages Like what have the railroad done I'm not saying you're old I'm older than you I'm just saying you have experience We We've gotten these several times at least I don't know if it's every year or every other year or whatever but it's
Yeah it's usually sounds the same Um this kind of letter this kind of letter but I don't Yeah I don't remember It seemed like they had that they usually sent us all the information like so that we you know didn't have to go look for ourselves Okay Well I'll dig deeper and
get get that plan talk to this person Keith uh who sent the letter and um yeah because this this is this is exempt or something right Isn't it I mean this is not something they're just notifying We're not voting on this So we
can't do anything Yeah we don't know but but we would like to see it anyway but Yeah So you want to know kind of the ingredients and stuff Is that so that you would request if it's like really bad that they Yeah So like is it glyate
or is it parakquot Um also I their letter states that asked Lond is the uh licensed operator but not the person themselves that is operating it And there's some wiggle room in there but again if it's paraquat there's a different licensing that goes along with
that particular active ingredient than does for example glyphosate or glucosate Okay And also a lot of times in those veg management plans um you know they'll state like that they'll notify the commission before the
activity but they'll also have a list of the target species They'll also have a list of the ingredients in their veg management plan which will be like a 500page document And then they they might also state that they'll give us a post application report Um and I just we
don't know what their VMP is So Okay I'll report back on that The one that I'm seeing on here doesn't have green fields listed Uh did you go to that address I went to
the website and I'm looking at the New England Central Railroad Company 2025 postemergent yearly operational plan Massachusetts line I like uh yeah so like we said before I think having them deliver that okay physical copy would be lovely because if
this thing is is the thing then uh the vegetation management plan listed here doesn't cover the municipalities covered by this plan are Ammerst Belchtown Irving Lebert Mson Monu Northfield Palmer and Sunderland our mun that's not our county
right well some of it is Northfield but okay But none nonetheless but we're not listed Okay Right So So this plan assuming of course I've found the appropriate plan which I don't swear that I have Okay Um doesn't cover Greenfield Okay I guess part of our
feedback is it's preferred if they send it to us directly Yes Got it Yeah And my my preference just for the record personally not that they because it sounded like they were like you can download it from our website or we'll send you a hard copy but my preference would be an electronic copy
Personally I have a feeling it's going to be a very lengthy pro uh permit or report Yeah this one's 114 pages Yeah I just feel like there should be an option for an electronic
copy that's directly emailed to you Jessica Yeah I will I'll get that I'm just still trying to figure out like why I don't see Oh wait New England Central Railroad Monitor Notice Vegetation Is
this it It should be a vegetation management plan associated with an an annual operation and maintenance plan So usually all utilities have an annual OM with a VMP So this one is their their VMP is two uh
2025 to 2029 And that's the one that I'm looking at now uh which is only 85 pages So that's better Sorry Nonetheless um Emily is correct
regardless of this detailed bit of conversation we're having The the bottom line is we we need them to deliver this to us Okay I can understand them not wanting to have to email a 100page document because sometimes it can bounce out of people's buffers Yeah Um but if
there's a direct link you know because we're justing about and we don't know where the document is then we can't look at it precisely Oh yeah they do have identification of target nuisance vegetation weeds brush trees
Okay All right Yeah I'll report back Let me get all the details I mean since we're not listed there Well that was different This one's got another Oh see I don't see Greenfield on
there Greenfield does not appear to be list Trying to make it bigger And over it seems like that could be a thing Chester Clinton Dalton Deons East Brookfield Framingham Graten Harvard no
Greenfield Yeah it's not on here yet Okay Well the worst Seems like we should Okay To be continued All business Thank you for waiting very patiently All right Um okay Sorry Let me get back
to where we were here Up next old business Stephen thank you for coming in again Welcome I always like coming in here Um our Zoom our Wi-Fi is horrible So we try
to hold family Zoom calls at the house They they dis pixelate and you get a stalled screen So it might as well come in I'm glitching All right Only a 10-minute drive So just so we read it off into the
record here Lamp black road parcel R08-11A-0 A road was cut and excavated down the wooded hillside to the flood plane and riverfront below in order to access the fall river This was done a permitted project Steven Pritchard was heading the project and is in attendance to discuss erosion control mitigation
installation and next steps That's me Um basically I've just been working along applying the jute material to both the road path surface and the sidewalls Um there was a period of time when we
did not go down there because the weather it was frozen then it rained a lot Well the the um spring thaw did bring a lot of water down the hill and um Jessica came out today for an inspection and I used a waddle at the
bottom of the path where it touched down on the river flat the silt in the top soil kind of went over that So after you left Jessica I talked to Greg Harris and he said
"Steve put in the soil screening fencing with stakes to stop it because it has leeched out." He said he can apply it at the bottom of the path and also at the furthest point of the plume so it doesn't move any further The nice thing
about the soil screening fence I didn't realize this is they have like a 4-in pad at the bottom that acts like a blade So will not allow the silt to move forward It'll let the water through but not the silt So that was the that was one of the major changes in the site and
it ruted the path Jessica's got some good pictures So I know Kristen made a comment that she's not real high on rip wrap but it was our only choice to stop the sidewalls of the ruts from dropping in to allow the water to
carry it down to the river flat So we have a plan and the plan is to cover that with the jute the rip wrap Bring in some soil from the site We don't want really want to bring in
soil because it's costly We're my wife and I are already she's worried because the well is not running dry but we want to get the project done So I put together a restoration plan which Jessica has but we want to shore up the site There's a main source of water
coming out of the side It is a natural spring and it runs constantly and it's trying to find its path to where it originally went which is into a ravine next to the path So I brought in the excavator which you know upon the cease
desist order we were done building the path He went home for the holidays and he went to Florida and he came back He came to the site this morning and part of his contract was as he reminded me was he was going to come back to the site and see examine what happened with
the winter thaw and the runoff and because they have built many roads in his career and then they they plan how they're going to collect the water like a natural spring and prevent it from doing any more erosion So his plan which
I reviewed with Jessica I showed her a sample of what he did on our driveway and it basically is to keep a minimal amount of rip wrap but you create like a little pool collecting all the water off the hill where it's coming out and collect
it And at the low point install a 12-in piece of PVC corrugated pipe Lay it under the path bed which would carry that clear spring water It would not allow it to pick up any soil because it' be running through
a you know solid plastic pipe and then have it come out into the ravine where it always had gone So it eliminate the problem of having it break What it's doing now is it's gravity's taking it across We had waddles in for water bars
and you could see exactly how it reacted when the thawed it ran across the water bar which they were working fine but it created a rut to run off the side and so this way there'd be no more ruting You'd carry it under the path let it drain out
The ravine is really steep because it follows the the original slope of the where it came down to the river flat So I think it's a great plan but we want to make sure it's approved by the conservation commission Should I start with the photos then
We'll end with the tree planting plan Okay Okay So uh this is uh just past the 200 foot mark So
everything covered in jute and down the hill The 200 foot mark riverfront mark is maybe around like the ladder So everything down the hill is um riverfront
making progress Wow Yeah So this is um right I think where that water that's the spring where it comes out Yeah And it was starting to
cut underneath the jute Where is the spring It Can we see it in the It's right here Okay Okay Yeah I think it like is like all this kind of like Oh it looks dampish Yeah there's like three little
streams of water coming out of the side of the hill and it's just constant flow It's not water runoff from rain or from melt This is an actual spring So this is like a really weird angle but um the water like wants to come out here
So you can kind of see it's collapsing a little bit Um and then there's water that goes down this hill here So it comes down here and down there So this that we're seeing there is that
part of the construction Yes This here Yeah Yeah This is the like the edge of the road right here But it goes past that tree Yes Yeah So is that was that part of the water bar construction Um the water bar was just up from that Yeah
I think this is just all like that shows the where it washes to the right It's very just exposed dirt Is that just like Yeah So I'm standing like on the edge So the excavator guy like dug into the hillside and like pulled it and like
built up this edge So that's like part of the buildup of the Okay So is there is there actually like measurable fill in the resource area that was added
Well here why don't we we'll get to the bottom of the um the road and you can see what's down there Um so I'm just working my way down the hill
So you can see kind of like that's where this like spring is kind of cutting the um soil underneath the jute And then the water bars were working pretty well but then it like worked its way under the water bar
too And so now we're like down towards the bottom and you can see that some of the soil has migrated and um is spilling out a bit That's where we want to place the soil
screening fence Yeah To stop it We can remove the soil but like that little spillage I honestly feel like this should be escalated to the state I don't know This is bad This is like there's a ton of material They want to
put in more soil and more rip wrap I don't This is one of my concerns about the plan that that you just sort of sketched out I haven't seen it in detail or anything is that like you described those seeps are in multiple areas So it seems like
it'd be it's not the same as saying oh well this is a stream that we can see where it's going and we can create a culvert to make you know the pathway for it to go under if it's coming from multiple points It'll be very hard to direct that Or it sounds like it would
Well if you go back to the real serious wet spot the serious wet that wet spot in the middle of the path up uphill like that Yeah that believe it or not it's not that large of an area We don't have
the Jude on it Yeah but this is probably three feet So the bowl that he wants to create All the water that we see live it's constantly running comes into this area right here and then it does its thing I mean the
water bar and the um I mean this is up the water bar but this is from the it was a huge ice snow pack until the end of February March I think it was like last week of February It was a 60°
day And so when I went back down all the snow was gone and I saw this huge rut Yeah And that's why we applied the rip wrap dirt But this is where he wants to do the little bit of a bowl Rip wrap it
under the ravines over here And he feels he can collect all this water because you don't see any water anywhere else on the trails I from any other source except rain going off but that'll go away once the grass starts growing
It's not It's not easy until you see what mother nature or nature's doing on the site Well the problem is all the trees were taken down and you added Phil Yeah Down at the bottom He's You're
right He scratched the sides creating the scar to get Phil to make the ramp because in the worst season and now it's not stable and it's messy and it's really difficult to control that and just throwing in my opinion just putting down hard armor
is not a very creative solution and I don't love that idea because it's just adding more fill to a resource area which which where would the fill come from the rip wrap
Well if he installs the pipe next week it would minimize it and then the grass is going in the uh first like right around the 1 of May to ensure there's no more frost So all the trees and the plantings on the side
hills are going in the week of the 21st Didn't you say you wanted to install a settling basin and rip wrap No Is there further plans that we should look through because we haven't seen everything yet right That's question
This last photo this is up at his house and it it's just a um like section of of rip wrap and there's it's a swale It's a rockline swale Yeah
we we would not make it that large on the path but Yeah So I probably should have like stood a little closer So this is the model that he's talking about Yeah So like just having like a little depressed zone with the rock that would
feed into the pipe that would go under the road And that depressed zone would be situated where that water soaking is so that we could be large enough to accompany all of the water that's coming out It's like three little streams but that's a covert replacement that doesn't
meet the current Massachusetts stream crossing standards and it's additional fill in a resource area for a project that wasn't even permitted I know we have an we have to address the immediate concern which is the erosion but I don't personally
feel that skirting other regulations is the way to do that One of the issues is that um right now we've been working with you just to do sort of the retention to make sure that everything doesn't get worse Any further work to
change the soil if it's within the resource area would require filing an NOI So this everything that was done wasn't permitted That doesn't mean we can do more not permitted So we have to go into that process we haven't yet because we were just trying to figure
out how to keep it and there was no more change that was going to happen So that what he's suggesting is another act you know it's it's like a project Yeah Even though the fills even though the fill's on site Yeah Any change to that land now I mean like putting a fence in is is
just keeping things from getting worse It's not adding to it and altering it But if you did dig to put that pipe in then you would you would have to do um a project You know how long does that how long does that process take Because I don't want to lose the guys on our schedule
Well um you know we can walk you through what the process is but um uh that does trigger you know talking to D as well you know So you know talking to who be at least a month I think before you
could be seen by the commission It'd be um like that it couldn't be the next meeting It have to be the meeting after So what this all basically the purview that's all under is the the rivers act and the wetland protection act So now we're entering into Okay So if
you want to do some further work if you want to remove if you want to put in rip wrap that's the point at which you just have to start from here and go through the whole process Is it electronic form or paperwork It's u electronic paperwork Yeah you can
do it online but the the filing system online is sort of not very user friendly I can help you print it print it out get a hard copy and yes scan it and email it Yeah I can point you in the right direction for all what's the name of the form I'm filling out Um but it won't be
a simple thing to just say "Oh we're just going to dig it up and put a pipe." Because that's part of what got us into this situation here is that none of it's simple We're going to have to look at the regulations and you'll you know there'll be a review by D And this is just how anybody has to deal with
anything that they're doing near water Yeah It's just exactly the same thing here We're sort of halfway through because so much work got done Excuse me Can I can I just chime in Yes This is this this is Missy Pritchard Steve's wife Sure I just have two quick
questions One is if the D gets involved will they help us with guidance on what we should do Definitely And two do you yourself have any guidance Like you said you didn't like the way it looked at the
bottom and you the culvert isn't compatible with uh the the rules or whatever Like what would you what would you like to see us do I think you should hire somebody I mean it's we're not your consultants We're just the commission If
you know you want to come up with a restoration plan and you can't think of something yourselves that will make this work maybe hire a landscape architect or That's what we did That's what we did Oh yeah that's what we did That's how the that's how the restoration plan came into play by a licensed contractor
that's very well verssed in erosion control He's the one that's been steering me all along He missed the soil screening fence because we thought the waddles were going to do the trick So um is there a written plan that he's
done for you or other than the the tree planting plan No No there's not but I I can certainly So some of the things that are helpful are delineations to figure out where are the boundaries where are the things that are the resource areas
Um that's going to be required for the the the process of filing the NOI um uh think taking into account what is allowed and what isn't allowed by the regulations and we can guide you in terms of saying this is you know you can
look to this regulation this is what's allowed but yeah creating the plan is what you guys need to do in order to be able to move forward or to All right well I know it by heart but I'll work with Greg Harris to write a formal one hey Kristen I just have one other
question the the Culver pipe that he was talking about that you said doesn't comply Mhm Is is it the the type of pipe or just that the fact that it is a pipe Anytime you put in a new stream crossing and obviously that's just an intermittent stream but it is an intermittent stream if there are banks
and it looks like right now based on those photos you have actual banks So that does look like a jurisdictional intermittent stream possibly more than one So anytime you put in a new crossing you have to put in a crossing that's 1.2 times the bank full width or like bank
to bank that width 1.2 times that width and the regulations prefer open bottom So I mean unless you're in agricultural land use you can skirt that Um so if you're
in chap chapter 61 or chapter 61A or something like that we are we are in chapter 61 Uh we're in we're in the hay hay growing business Is it does it exclude does it include the forested part of your land I don't know Look into that That that
could make a difference because you do get agricultural exemptions So just again a consultant will help you with these things Um you know they should be able to Well if we're going to be talking with the D anyway can we just We already have hired this uh landscape dude If we're going to be talking to the
D wouldn't they be the best people to tell us what the state requires or wants Do you remember when Mark Stinson was here a couple weeks ago you guys remember when he was he is he's like a whiz when it comes to a exemptions He's a whiz when it comes to stream crossings
He he's he's he sounds scary but he's not He's he's great and he will he will help you He's he's really accessible and he's he's wonderful So how how would we get in touch with him He's does western so D has different regions Um we are obviously western Mass so he's in our
western region and he's the circuit writer Yeah The wetlands department This DP has like you know lots of different departments but yes western region wetlands circuit writer All right And this might be a stupid question but before this was even done those streams
were running under the ground right Yes So and then they were out of the ground just to the right of our path No but if you hadn't built the path those streams were still running but they were running probably underground Yes
So would an option be to put them back underground If it goes on existing conditions not prior to construction conditions Yeah No but I mean to put it back to prior to construction that would just wash it out That would be a covert Well no I was
just thinking if you covered if you put more put pushed the dirt from the path over the the spring and planted stuff on it Would that that's Phil No It would put it back to the way it was
No Let me ask you this because this obviously is like you said yourself it's the worst time of year right Because bad Yeah We had thawing and we've had rain and all that kind of stuff there Do you think that there is a chance that well you know if all this hydro
seeding is done and all this planting is done that that will take care of a large percentage of this problem so that next year at this time we wouldn't have all this going on Is that fair to say
What do you think Liz [Music] Uh I feel like I feel like having somebody like Mark Stinson there who has the level of expertise necessary to understand the
dynamics at play here Um you know I I I hear what you're saying Missy I really do It seems like we could just like restore it to the way it was before and it'd be fine But unfortunately because of the removal of the soil structure and uh the roots and everything else uh we
can't really put that back Um and so we have to find a new way to stabilize everything And unfortunately springs you know any water body it's not going to be a constant state of just one way of
activity right Flux And so if we have a wet summer if we have a wet fall if we have a hurricane come through like any one of those hydraological um events occurs any instability that currently exists
which is what we're seeing is going to become a problem And so we can't really um look at one season We have to look at Well is is Mark to get Mark Stinson over to the site do you have to go through
a process of application or whatever or do you just call him and say "Hey can you come out?" You can approach him and Okay But you know we probably it probably would be helpful for us to start thinking about how how are we working with you through this process
Yeah Because like Steve said this I mean you know bad on us but this is costing a bloody fortune And not to mention he's living out there Even though we live in Beverly he's living out there working on
that thing every single day And and absence is not making the heart grow No absence is not making the heart grow fonder No it's not Yeah So I think I think what you your your best move from tomorrow if possible would be to reach
out to Mark and um sort of Do we know how to get a hold of him Um I I can look it up on the website I think Unless you have his number handled I I have it I'm sure I've got it Hang on Let me just tell you really quick I I feel bad giving out his information but I met him when he was here I'll tell you
his email after uh tonight Well you know believe it or not Greg Harris has been so in tune with this project and he feels kind of like what Melissa is saying that we not only working the 200 foot buffer zone
but we were looking into stabilizing the hill and turn it back into its natural forest state May I ask this this Hey Kristen I have one other sort of technical question Because the bottom of the path is 195 ft to the water's
edge it would I don't know It seems to me like it would take a lot to push the dirt into the river Is there any forgiveness or leniency on the fact that it's so far from the river We don't actually know that because it hasn't been delineated We don't know if there's a bordering vegetated wetland We got to
get marked to the site You might have streams So there could be fill in streams You could be in riverfront We don't actually know where your resource area boundaries are because it hasn't been delineated What were you saying So my question the gentleman remind me of the name of the gentleman that you had just mentioned
not not Greg Harris Was Greg Harris the original person helping you establish this project No I brought him in after when after the cease and desist Okay But if he But you said he's he's done this so he he should know he should know right You know what what what you're
going to need to show us Yeah Yeah Yeah he put together a plan He basically was impressed that when I started coming to the meetings I talked to him the next day He goes "How did it go?" And he goes "They didn't have you file forms." He said "That's a good sign that they trust
what you're doing." I said "Well now we've seen what the spring thaw So before we do anything I really would like to get a hold of Mark first thing in the morning and see when he can come out because and then the other thing is where does the 61A apply because I think
forestry was part of it because I was given a uh wood rights um document from her father because he's the owner of the land Tracy Burnham And so I think it's 61A covers the forestry and the and the
h the wood rights and the hay So yeah there are other processes that you go through So you would have been working with the service forester of the region Oh that's so there it's not that there's nothing you have to do right No it's just there's you know there's one process there's another process I Hey I
know now that we have to work the processes We're going to work the processes It's just like I said I don't want to schedules have been set and I don't want to lose these guys but it sounds like it may take longer than their schedules allow the growing season
All we need is one week of 60 degrees The trees are gonna bud But before we spend all the money on all that which is a ton we we should get Mark Stinson to prove that he thinks it's smart or a good and I think Sorry Kristen Go ahead
I was just going to say I know we're not supposed to put stuff in the chat but I did put his contact info in the chat Missy and Steve Oh thank you Is that like normal for people to reach out to Mark or is that something that we're
supposed to facilitate We're supposed to facilitate that It's It's kind of so complicated but Well he heard the project because he was here that one meeting but I talked to him a little bit He he basically was
very interested in the power company issues but he he didn't really seen this was he didn't act like it was that big of a deal when I presented my case Did we know about the spring at that point The spring No No
not that night So I I feel like really what we're we're looking at here is that's the thing that's complicating this issue right I mean further complicating the issue to the point where we now have to take this type of action Kristen was maybe we should put a well in She was observant because she
the wet spot She said that is 50°ree water That was a clear indicator to me right there because it was constantly running That's a spring I'm just wondering if I should reach out to Mark be like we have this situation
happening We would like your input you know as I would if you want to do that Jessica I think that'd be a good idea maybe facilitate that but just bring up the A exemption possibility and then ask the land owners to confirm whether or not it is an A and that would be
paperwork that they would have to provide because that would make things a lot easier if you wanted to stick a pipe in the ground But if they want to put a culvert in they're not an egg That's a whole permit So how about I reach out to him first thing in the morning Okay and
I try to schedule a site visit with us with you guys and perhaps with your and you know can we do a three-way call Yeah we could do a phone call first if you want Yeah I mean it's the whole thing is a sense of urgency So you know I mean
she's Melissa's right I mean I have all these other projects that I want to get done and I basically she knows I she's like what are you doing next week I said I'm working the river path I'm laying Jew Yeah we still would like to get the sides done because hydro seed is
important because Yeah that'll stop soil from washing the sides I mean and the and the path bed It could But like she said before we have that guy bring his bring all that material in the hydra seed I'm not
talking about the trees and the planting No I'm talking about the hydra seed Well it's one truck at the top and he has four No no no I don't mean I'm not I'm not talking about the truck I'm just talking about I don't think we should do anything until we talk to Mark All I'm saying is there's a sense of urgency
because he wants to hydro seed May 1st through 8th So if we could get Mark on site by then and work this process of May 1st through 8th of May Is that Yeah Because that's when the growing season starts There's no threat of frost We
want to get the grass growing You know it all it it is all about soil erosion Yeah I was thinking getting if he's available ne you know next I'm I'm around tomorrow and I'm around all next
week Um Yeah it'd be great if you could come out tomorrow To all of us that you have a good outcome Yes So we're going to work hard to make sure that we can get you in touch with I appreciate it Get you on the right path And it may it may end up
being hard armor is the only solution but I just feel like there has to be a more creative solution than hard armor There has to be some kind of a bioengineering solution that I'm not an expert I'm not a landscape architect I don't know But I would love to see
creativity We don't know what's under there Like there might be other seeps you know it's such a complex area and it's so wet that I'm I'm I'm afraid of um you know you have investing all this in that infrastructure and then something else comes up or it shifts or
you know so or another washes out Exactly And so let us not speak that It's amazing though It's still feels like winter and the ferns are all alive They're all greened up stuff was coming
out of the ground today sprouting It feels warmer down there than it does up in the flat because you don't have the windchill It's It's an amazing valley Well hopefully we can figure it out before Trump wipes out our retirement
savings So I will reach out to him first thing and I'll see if he can just come out Um and you'd be part of that too right Yeah I would come too Cool Um and then it's not a three-seater so we have to walk
down I would I I'm gonna aim for next week because that gives him enough time And it seems like the weather is not cooperating this week besides tomorrow Do you advise me still applying the Jude to the sidewalls
What's the condition of the sidewalls right now Try And we've had pretty substantial rain I mean Jessica's got a good shot I mean it's coming together nicely I hired a couple guys and they actually repelled down the side They tied their rope to a
tree and it held because well it was taking me an hour to do And they That's the UPS slope side The downs slope side is what freaks me out So on the right side of that photograph the cut part of the road on
the Yeah that's the part that worries me That's where we're going to plant Fill this void You're gonna lose your road I mean photography [Laughter]
It's much more severe than in person Less in person Oh boy Okay I can see it there So the original question however was is it um imperative to continue to lay down the juke on the upside On the upside On the upside Yeah So like here Yeah Fill all
that in So if you're saying it's dry and then if it's dry and we get any big rain then that's going to start washing would be my concern So this would stabilize it because the stakes I'm using 6 in It's amazing It clings it right to it Yep We ran out of stakes So I had Missy order
you know quite a few And she's like "Do we really need that many?" I'm like "Yeah because it's fabric and it won't cling If you don't have enough it falls out." The hydro seating where does Where will
that go That would go all over everything We're going to do Virginia rye on the on the path surface And it what's cool about it is it has a longer root system than a fescue Okay
And it would cling to all the the rip wrap and it would solidify it like in a couple years it' just be this beautiful grass path And the other thing I wanted to ask you and Greg Harris asked it Do
you you talked about one for one for the trees We went I went excessive Missy's concerned about it It's all about the beautifification We want to stagger them up the sides of the path Put some in the sidewalls But is it three years that you
monitor the trees They have to stay growing If they die within that period we have to replace So historically what we have or well since I've been on what we've done is we've we've asked for a certain percentage of survival of
the overall replacement planting after a three-year period Right So we estimated 12 to 15 were removed by the excavator So we're doing 21 extra which should give you more than 100% survival rate moving forward Yeah Well
there's some root ball holes on the side banks which makes it really look ugly but it's a great place to put the hemlocks because they like I mean there's quite a few on the side anyway And then the hardwoods would be staggered on the roaded and on the
sidewalls There are some repair areas where you know the ruts just happen I mean they're going to continue to happen if we don't get this stabilized It's dry though for the next week What
I'm looking drier than it has been So I'll look forward to hearing from you Jessica Okay The good news too about tonight's schedule I just was reading down because we live on the GTD trails I I noticed you're paying attention to the trails Yeah Because I have friends that
live there now and they're like "The trails aren't maintained." And all of a sudden someone must have said something because what's on the agenda What's on the agenda for the GTD It's about trail maintenance Yeah I just I had on Friday We're walking them and there's a lot of
logs and Yeah trees that fell Yeah I mean so are you guys going to start are you guys going to start doing it Well they have a plan Yeah we're creating a list of priorities I'll claim as someone that probably hit the 99 Okay All right I'm signing off then Okay
Byebye Thanks for coming both of you Byebye Thank you I mean that was donated and her great uncle was a bomber pilot said you know if the city of Greenfield doesn't maintain the trails you can
request to have them back 250 acres That was the whole reason why the family forever well behind your house Yeah But anyway I'm great So glad to see that I sent this to my buddy Nice
It had come up like about a year and a half ago and we just then things happened and our agent changed and stuff just so it kind of got lost in the process I would like to be on that list I have a good friend We both
said I'm so happy because that's so much on the GTV trails like what Well we will absolutely put you on our list of people that we will tap for uh that's great Yeah exactly Right across the country I know We take people over there all the time and they think it's
so beautiful going through the mountain Yep it is Well thanks for all your help Yeah struggling I can't wait to talk to Okay I will be in touch tomorrow Thanks Okay my cell
phone Um okay Thank you Bye Bye Good night All right Next up um Greenfield Wetlands Protection Ordinance Review Greenfield City Council is in the process of
reviewing the city ordinances The commission is to discuss in-depth potential updates to recommend All right I actually took some time and reviewed this today All right I looked at it but I didn't get all the way through Thank you for your reminder
emails So helpful All right What do you got Emily All right Uh is Kristen still with us Um on the I only see owner there Okay I see her I think owner is Missy just on Oh okay
So she'll probably get off All right great So um you gave us the link to the folder that had the past reviews that had been done Fletcher sent an email to Mitch I read through that Um and that one I think is the one we're
going to talk about the most So you mind if I go over some other stuff first Not at all All right So um I found a couple of things that just seemed a little very minor but um there I for
exemptions and exceptions and another area um it talked about referring to the mass 2002 Massachusetts inland wetland replication guidelines da da da da and it never says or successor documents Um
but somewhere else it used the language as may be amended from time to time So um I will I'll I'll share my notes around to everybody so you can see exactly the section and the paragraph but it might that if we are indeed going
to change these I might recommend that where there is something that's a standard that was in existence um you know 23 years ago we should say or the current document Okay Because otherwise we're going back to one that's out of date That's a that's a just really
simple Obviously it doesn't seem like it's the but it's Yeah but then we can just say oh yeah but oh that's been succeeded or amended or whatever by this time Did we cite that in the bylaw is Jackson at all Is that 2022 you're talking about The new one
Massachusetts inland wetland replication guidelines Oh yeah there's a break There's 2022 That's new That's really outdated Yeah it's really outdated Yeah No it's good Good call So it's a very simple thing but that that you know that's sort of a common sense thing Um
let's see Yeah there's a couple of places where I found that so I will share that around Um okay here's another just a simple like procedural thing Uh it says under 423-4D procedures under this chapter are
the same as the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act Um and then one the applicant shall submit seven copies of each application Right So it says that in one place and then in another place it says
um that you can submit it by electronic filing So I would say one of the things we also want to go through the bylaws is to go through the language and find determine whether we still need to have multiple copies The in another section
423-6 in under coordination with other boards it says that we are to take those copies that are provided by the applicant and give them to the other boards as necessary You know like planning or zoning or whoever So given that nobody wants paper we're using the
electronic we probably just want to change the language to say what we want it to say So I would Is this for an NOI or is this for like anything Uh but this one
I know who's Yeah it does distinguish RDAs and ADI and everything else Okay but um I thought it was like three Ours says seven Okay Yeah Yeah It it was for a while it was all every every commissioner got one plus the agent got
one and I think like Eric got one or something So just you don't want to put the burden of all that duplication on the town or city because it is expensive over and over and over again But at this point we're probably using almost no paper So we just want things to other departments or anything Well that's what
I was just saying after we were just what do you do with it We just end up recycling it And then the question I had was too based you know following through than that is do you end up giving the applications to other a departments in the city No it's just D usually that
gets them Yeah D and then uh I have a physical file that and then I have my electronic Okay Um they send it to D Like I'm not I I'll do stuff like there's a portal that I do but they're
supposed to mail it on their own to D Oh right Right They they actually send it to D Okay So under coordination with other boards there's language there that we probably just want to review and you know clean up Y um so that it's not like
quite so antiquated Yes 20th century language somebody stone tablets [Music] Oh yeah Okay And then there was another section where it says um by mail electronic or hand delivery the
applicant shall give written notice to the property owner This is for the the a Butters So the notice for a Butters doesn't have a million copies and allows for electronic So just there's some language that seems like oh yeah this is just fine and we do this versus the ones that say seven physical copies that are
passed everywhere So I'm sorry I didn't talk to Do you need something Kristen or Yeah sorry I was muted Emily did you did the bylaw say anything about um whether it can be certified mailings
[Music] Um you know actually that is one thing that the the um um a butter not annotation the language didn't actually call out which is typical where you you usually have to have the
certification either by hand and then get a signature that they've received it Yeah But certified mailings are not certified receipts but I always get them mixed up But there's one that's easier and cheaper Yeah Yeah Okay Yeah Yeah and you're right that doesn't call that doesn't include that So that's probably
something we would need to include as well Sorry All right Um okay then Um where's the back Oh okay One thing that reminded me of some conversation we've had recently
is um under uh notice and hearings 423-7J 4 terms of applicability renewals revocations and amendments The committee is in an appropriate case
may combine the decision issued under this chapter with the permit DOA or RAD or certificate of compliance issued under the wetlands protection act and regulations So to me that sounded like when we're doing a decision that's based on our bylaws and our um what's it
called Our warrant or whatever ordinance Our ordinance Thank you Um we can also combine it with the D filing So I feel like that came up recently when we were talking about what's the jurisdiction here Maybe it was even those fellows um
who have the um the pile of brush in the um yeah or maybe I was I'm thinking one of the times where we were dealing with a um um intermittent stream But um it is good to just I wanted to note that and I don't think we have to change this that
we can combine those We can make decisions together on the two So that's that's okay Um yeah like I was saying and thinking the last meeting some some towns like Amoris for example they issue two separate special conditions one under the wetlands protection act and one under the town bylaw and oftentimes
are exactly the same And it's just like do we want to do that or are we good combining them specifically Oh good That's I'm that's why this rang a bell In our bylaws we can do one decision We do not have to do two We can combine them We have to vote on both but we
don't have to Okay gotcha Yeah good We still still have to vote on both on the on the on the ground and the special We can combine the decision issued under this chapter Okay So maybe we need to look at more more of the language than I I called out here but it sounds like
there's a way we can do that Okay And then [Music] um Oh yeah um is one of the things that I just wanted to note I was also reading it just to understand it too So I'm just
giving you my my observations um is that we um can assign special resource area status to sites that perform unique resource functions and condition protections for those uh special resource areas So this made me think
actually of our friends who have the um uh the stream restoration bank restoration project um the Jehovah's Witness Church um that is undermining their park their driveway and when we
looked at that stream it's really kind of an important stretch of that river Um so not saying that we should do that but if we run into situations like that where we see that an area is particularly of importance or special we
can call it out as um a site that has special functions So that's something that as a commission we might want to think about how we would handle that or what our priorities are And that might be something that goes into our prioritization um and conservation thought too So that if we think about
like just looking at the land in the town and Well these are really important like vulnerable areas that we want to make sure that are handled appropriately and you know maybe our rivers are ones because that's so important for flood resilience with climate change So that's
just that's 423-7 I All right Um and then but you think it's written fine It's I think it's fine I'm just noting it because I went through this all very closely
Um let's see Okay And then um thinking of the Aldi's um uh issue with having it be so difficult for us to monitor it Um the
provision under 42 423-10 security allows us to ask for um um as a part of a permit issued under this chapter in addition to any security required by any other municipal or state border official The commission may
require that the performance and observance of the condition imposed here be secured wholly or in part by one or more of the methods described below assurity by bond deposit of money other undertaking of financial responsibility or by restriction by conservation
restriction easement or other covenant enforceable in a court of law So we have the power both to require that people put aside money to make sure that something is going to go as planned or require them to conserve land or put an
easement or something like that So that those are much bigger powers than I realized we had And I mean I think of you know maybe we can ask them to we can require that they hire a consultant to do a wetland delineation or something but these are above and beyond and they
give us more power to make sure that um both the project is going to be completed appropriately like that you know just as an example not that I'm advocating this but the hotel example you know if we had had specific concerns say there was a wetland right next to it
and we wanted to make sure that nothing went wrong then some money would have had to have been set aside and when they abandoned the project that money would have been there to make sure that oh if it if when it was demolished and something went wrong then it could have been taken care of And then by the same
token as we think about conservation in the town as a whole it's really important to know that we have the power to in like require that people conserve land Like we could say well you want to build these three houses and um you want to build in the resource area So we're
going to require that as part of you know whatever the mitigation thing is you would conserve the balance of your land or something along those lines So that's um sort of a a high level um power that we could potentially comment
So I don't think that should change I'm just calling that to your attention Gotcha Thank you All right I'm getting to the end I promise So the next part is the fe fines fees and enforcement And so I just you know this all looks fine but I do want to clarify that there is a
$500 fee fine per day if they violate an enforcement order that we put put on them whoever it is If they violate if they violate the enforcement order that we put on them if they don't for every day that they're not coming into
compliance with an enforcement order that's $500 per day So then go ahead What's your question So so so this would require that we observed them not being in compliance with their their um order of conditions Yeah First and you would
have had to go through all of the procedures to get to the point of doing an enforcement order okay Which is long Sure There's a lot of steps that gets you there Then say we did put an enforcement order on somebody and every day that they don't do it we can find
them $500 for a day separate from that I believe and this I want to maybe talk to like MACC or something just to make sure but one of the questions that people had had before about our our ordinance was it says 500 here but 300 here they are
separate my my interpretation different $500 a day for not complying with the enforcement order but the state ma maximum is $300 a day for not being in compliance with the wetland regulations and the Rivers Protection Act So for
violating the law and the regulations someone can be fined $300 a day For violating our enforcement they can be fined an additional $500 a day So people could be acrewing $800 a day and that's
per violation right So if they have multiple violations then that could be thousands of dollars a day So ours comes into play after they've already violated the state Yeah Exactly Okay So the state then we can but they have to have been cited for
it Right Right But you can be cited whenever you know as long as I don't know what the the limitations are on some things But if it's a continuing condition that as soon as we notice it then that's when they get cited for it So I want to confirm that with MACC
Maybe I'll like make a call or something to make sure I'm interpreting that correctly But my seeing it there in parallel I think it's the two different things That makes sense Yeah I was questioning Exactly It makes sense Why is it 300 here and 500 there Does it say
where the money goes Um no I don't I didn't notice where the money goes I thought the um the it's probably well known the 500 would have would go to our account that doesn't otherwise get replenished was my
understanding Yeah that's what I hope or would want written in because that could be used to purchase land and there's no other way to get money in there or take care of maintenance that doesn't have a trust on it or unless the town say or
take care of maintenance for properties that don't have trust associated with them Yeah Yep Um and the 300 though does that go to the state Okay I don't know I would put sounds like but
so those are some questions for us to Okay great So the one that I thought we would probably talk about the longest is the one that Fletcher brought up Um so uh in our our um bylaws or our ordinance
as it stands um and this is how we've been interpreting it so we're not getting anything wrong Um intermittent streams are classed along with the 200 foot resource area In some towns that's how it's done
In other towns I'm not sure where it's the majority but it sounds like maybe this is the majority If uh if intermittent streams are protected it's part of the 100 foot buffer area
not the river source river resource area Yeah intermittent streams get a 100 foot buffer anyway So if we were to administer additional protection like under a bylaw or an ordinance it would have to be separate So I think that's what's different about our city
ordinance It's a 200 foot riverfront Yeah exactly And there are other examples of towns like Hopkinon was the one that Fletcher called out that simply add in the ephemeral streams into the the paragraph that talks about the buffer the resources that have a buffer
zone Well just just so riverfront's not a buffer zone It's a resource area I know I know That's why so some towns put the ephemeral stream into the the resource into the group of resources that have a buffer zone that is
protected So to I don't know Kristen maybe you can correct me but it to my eye it looked like without that protection um intermittent streams don't have are not defined as having a buffer zone area that is protected for 100 uh feet Is that your understanding or is
that that's under the wetlands protection act so it shouldn't make any difference because the bylaw would just be additional protections beyond the state because usually it's like federal regulations are like meh state regulations are pretty good local regulations are the strongest So if we
have anything in our bylaw or ordinance it would be better than the state So I guess I thought you were trying to say that our riverfront was not a resource but a buffer zone That's what I thought you were trying to say I'm saying that Fletcher said we should change it so that the ephemeral streams
are not classed with the re resource area but that they should be moved over into the group that defines it as having a buffer zone Buffer area Is it buffer zone or buffer area I'm getting it mixed up with forestry stuff Buffer zone Buffer zone Buffer zone Um group which
is how some towns handle it But it sounds like that doesn't raise the protection if the ephemeral streams already have that under the wetland protection The difference between a buffer zone and a resource area So like take Sturbridge for example their bylaw
has they require people to file permit applications when they they can be as far as 500 feet from a resource area and they have to file So the difference between a buffer zone and a resource area is if you're within the buffer zone you're in our jurisdiction It's not really like a resource area It's just
you're in our jurisdiction so you have to file with us So do we want to see more applications and not really be able to do anything about it Yeah So so so hang on a second So the resource area is something that we can uh dictate what
needs to be done in order to protect the resource area but the buffer zone is just something that basically they got to tell us that they're doing it and we got to be like h you can do conditions though right Because like if it's in the buffer zone and they do an
RDA you could be like oh you know it's work within the buffer zone but it's not removing filling dredging But then you can add special conditions still How is that how does that differ from
the resource area Well the resource area is like hands down Completely hands off Yeah Okay RDA buffer zone is like you have the option of being like "Yeah go ahead Don't worry about it." Or setting
conditions But ultimately we can have to pay they have to pay for the NOI They don't have to pay for the RDA Ah so it's like their benefit too because it sounds so if it's in buffer zone in order to do work in it you can do an RDA and say
you're doing work within the buffer zone but it's not affecting the project Yeah And you you all would decide if it's indeed not affecting but sorry I was just so so if somebody's has a project and the only they have is an emergency stream they have to file an NOI Right
now they have to file an NOI because they're in the resource area Correct But otherwise they you know they wouldn't have to They would still have to come before us to make sure it was okay but if it was just a buffer zone that was the only thing that was you know that they had So I didn't realize So intermittent streams have a buffer
zone Uhhuh 100 foot just like a wetland because it's a wet Okay Bank Inland Bank has a 100 foot buffer zone Okay Okay All right Good Good to know And but currently our our bylaws are set up to
identify an intermittent stream as a resource area Exactly The same as a as as a regular river right Ex Yeah So we we mirror 10.58 of the wetlands protection act So all of those performance standards and there are many for riverfront area under the wetland
protection act We basically say we're going to apply all of those to intermittent streams under our ordinance So it's a actually it's a pretty hefty um I'm going to read one of the other examples from the other towns that have it in the buffer zone Just so we've
heard it Um okay Examples of towns with a 100 foot buffer for intermittent streams Air adjacent upland resource area shall include lands with 100 feet of any freshwater wetland marsh flat wet meadow bog swamp vernal pool bank
reservoir lake or pond of any size creek intermittent stream beach or land underwater bodies and lands within 200 feet of renewal rivers and streams Um so that's defining it as an adjacent upland resource
area And okay here's another one Wetlands that are subject to protection under the act include any area within 100 ft of a and this is Brimfield swamp marsh forested wetland vernal pool pond or intermittent stream also known as the
buffer zone So that's the way that some towns handle it I'm not advocating for either I just wanted to make sure I I've read it that way if you guys think "Oh Emily you're interpreting it wrong." I could say it Have we historically had any
issues with treating intermittent streams as resource areas Kristen I'll give you I mean I can think of one project where it was up at the industrial park and they wanted to basically relocate the stream and it did not meet the performance standards and
we said you know there's no way you can permit this unless you file it as a limited project Um I I think I think what it was when we were talking about with Fletcher was that was that we kind of were lenient on some of them because it wasn't and so
then so then when we were tough on other people we're like oh we're not keeping consistent Right Yeah So it was more like maybe we should you know if if it if it was just the buffer zone then we we could also we could always add in things if we but we can't take them out
But we couldn't right And and and to just be you know a little kind of lenient was getting like a little iffy because the other thing that was in there was a map which is nice showing the perennial streams and the intermittent streams and their buffers
or no just just their riverfront areas which it looks like we don't have a lot of intermittent I mean I I counted and it's 13 So it's not it's not the prepoundonderance Um a lot of I think there's more than that A lot of them are not mapped Maybe that's all that's
showing up on this Uh yeah that's the that's the problem right I mean and so then people don't even know I mean they apply for something and they don't even know that they haven't because it's not mapped anywhere But to just to add to Pletcher's point that I think you're
saying was his point not all intermittent streams are created equal Like it seems like some's just a trickle while some is like a pretty well- definfined Well that and that's what that was what you know when it was just kind of a trickle Yeah I have to
put all the riverfront you know standards on was like yeah you know I think it was in his email and we obviously should all just read it but um that also sometimes you you think are should we have types or sizes you know like if it's under 200 feet should it
have a different standard than over 200 feet something like that I don't know I feel like intermittent streams are defined in the act And getting into the diff difference between ephemeral and intermittent and perennial I don't know Yeah But but in the act they're not they're not considered
resource right Not the riverfront but the but the intermittent stream itself is defined under the act But it only has a but it only has a 100 foot buffer But it's inland bank That's the difference So inland bank is the resource area for inter and then there's land underwater
for the stream channel but there there is no riverfront for for intermittent streams and then our bylaw just says for intermittent streams we're going to copy what the act has for riverfront for perennial streams which is like hardcore if it's just it
is pretty hardcore Yeah Well that's what I'm I mean buffer zone well you said we don't really have that much dirt mean well so the buffer zone they have to submit an RDA they have to right which opens up the floor for conditions that
they would have to meet so it might be easier for us to have buff offer zone and make it harder than to have riverfront and try to make it less yes right I see what you're saying you know
I mean I mean if it's if it's if it's an actual intermittent stream that's kind of flowing we could make it Right Yeah But if it's a trickle then it's hard to don't you know don't make it less I dig it The piece
we're giving up is that second 100 ft Right Right And the across the board expectation that there's going to be protections on that stream Right Across the Yeah Because we because we could add in 100 feet right I mean that could be a condition that we add in from Yeah If we
decide that this was a really important stream that flowed more than we thought it did right The only difference is if we if we don't implement a resource area around intermittent streams like we currently do then there are no
performance standards that we can uphold the activity to So right now any activity that's within 200 feet of a intermittent stream under the ordinance we have performance standards that the applicant has to has to adhere to which if we change that those are all out the window If
it's just a buffer zone there are no performance standards So that's that's the difference Are there any former applicants that have been ownorously negatively impacted by the intermittent stream being designated as
a resource area I think it depends on the perspective I'm not So so so to be clear the previous owner of my home was definitely before you and saying that's that's just a runoff right Right So I'm
sorry Say again I have an example Okay So there is somebody that is trying to submit an NOI for they want to build a single family home on a lot that has yet to be subdivided
And it turns out that this person who's selling off the lot has been trying to for a while and a couple came to Mitch with a design Um and they went through
this whole process and like I think hired someone to design the home like had it delineated all this stuff And then I at some point Mitch told them it was not buildable because it was riverfront and now this new guy is
coming to me and it's come up like he's like well I guess they already delineated these wetlands like what happened with those people And I because I don't know the performance standards you know I'm like you have to hire a wetland scientist and have them tell you
whether or not you could adhere to the performance standards And if you can then you submit an NOI And so that's kind of where it's at But I know that Mitch like there was some Yeah not happy
feelings between the people that are we gonna like I mean if we're gonna revise that section are we going to do that tonight I don't think it would be I would not advise that you do so Yeah I feel like this is a huge question and there's like
the 10.58 section of the river of the wetlands protection act is like 11 pages long It's the longest section of the act other than the definition section It's really detailed I mean there are MAD exemptions and grandfathered exemptions
clauses and it's it's super complicated Um we could look at other bylaws like Town of Graten has really interesting wording on vernal pool protection I know that's a different resource area but they have like you know if you have an existing lawn you
can go up to 50 feet but if you don't you can go up to 100 feet and that's it We could play with different ideas but I don't I don't know if we're gonna get there tonight I feel like we could talk about this for about six hours I think sometime in May right Okay Yeah Like
we've still got we've still got time to like uh hash over And the other thing too is like this opportunity will come up again And so if we can't settle on something that we find to be palatable this goround we can continue to work on
it Do you know how often they do this I was I was going to say I'm not sure it comes up that often No I don't think Do you remember Kristen Because I think that was one of the things we we were talking about making some changes and then there was Yeah we talked about this a few years ago but we decided not to touch that We were talking about a
couple other things but I don't think we decided to touch that I think we decided at the end it was better to be safe than sorry and that was maybe like two years ago Um Liz when is the date that we have to have changes submitted by by Oh um
they want May 23 That is actually sooner than I thought Um so we would need to like by our next meeting or two meetings from now have all of
our how would we do this Like comments in a draft and then discussions or like how would we how do we do this Yeah So it sounds to me like if this is something that we want to do and do now um everybody should first of all we're going to assue all of the other stuff
and focus ex my recommendation would be that we don't worry about any of the other changes unless somebody's got double extra time and that we focus strictly on the documentation that Kristen was just talking about and really um figure out if we can do this
in a way that makes sense and have it pulled together by let's see they they'd want it by May 23 Are you talking about the riverfront stuff or Okay The perennial stream I would that would be 13 Do you make the other two very minor changes though Yeah The wording changes
I think you think it would be easy Yeah I'm I feel like I'm sort of I feel like I'm if we the last time we talked about this two years ago or whenever it was I was sort of like amenable to changing that that part of the riverfront on intermittent streams and now I feel
differently Now I feel like I don't I don't really want to back it up I I'd rather keep it stronger than make it weaker All right I'm I'm inclined in that direction actually too Partly because of climate change Cool I'm I'm totally okay with that And then we
just get somebody mad sometimes I was definitely kind of like this is crazy when they first started But now I don't know Yeah I don't think if we went back I doubt anybody would go replace those
protections right And we're actually a a good position to do better to better do our job to protect the resources by having that But that does bring up a different challenge that we will have to address um which is this particular example that
you have set before us Yeah So the this will be interesting because he's like at first I was kind of like there are mitigation options that are available to people you know there's alternatives that I mean just
going it's not impossible to devel in the near future and you guys can hear him out and what his plan is because we can always make some we can allow them do whatever they want if not whatever they want but if they you if we
tell them you know you can do this but you have to do this Yeah So so he'll he'll be coming but it is kind you know just to exemplify like the past Yeah um those people were very upset and then to have him come and get maybe even get
a permit whereas they oh if they find I mean well I don't know if they would but I'm just saying like this is just an example of where it's come up and it's been like a negative yeah right and so we we do want to figure out how to to ameliate that but I
don't know that um it it sounds to me that taking this out of the resource area category is the way to do that Is that a fair like I'm not sure what you mean Taking the intermittent streams out of the resource area category in our bylaws You mean the riverfront
associated with intermittent streams Um well if you guys kept it the way it is then it is kind of like Erica was saying like a case by case basis figuring out how you know to wait
make it work It'd be interesting just as a thought experiment to take that property and just change the change the buffers and and look at it as though that that change had been made because it is only 100 ft more right And it is a
difference of the buffer zone versus a resource area which has much more strict uh regulations But would would a project even still be viable you know it how much difference is um would it really be a good place to build even if it was just like the
regular wetlands I mean I yeah I don't I personally wouldn't have chosen this lot but he's pretty locked in like I think he's excited about it Um what what I don't understand is what are the performance standards Well there aren't any for the buffer zone That's what
Kristen was saying Yeah 10.58 You want me to pull them up I mean we can talk about it if you want Um The other thing is too with this like climate change resiliency that's nice I don't need to go that deep I think it's a it's a lot Jessica It's like it's a
lot If you want to read them it's 10.58 of the I'm gonna I'm gonna like sleep with it and absorb it Put it under your pillow and just absorb it But just one last thought with like climate change resiliency and thinking about that kind of stuff I just feel
again like I don't think reeling back our protections is really the direction we should be going And again I have changed my mind on this over the last five years but it's hard enough to get people to believe that oh yeah it is a bad idea to impinge on wetlands but and
our wetlands are going to be more vulnerable and our rivers are going to be more volatile Yeah So you know in you know intermittent streams aren't probably the most uh problematic of waterways we're dealing with but they're
not going to get better If so yep I have something to add to this topic Um Christy Moore told me that she's requesting that they have a they have a parks and
recreation facility chapter in the ordinance and it includes conservation land And she said it doesn't really make sense because there's a lot of things that aren't even on the conservation
land like the facilities Um but and also just like language Um so she's recommending that conservation land has its own chapter and gets pulled out of the parks and wreck chapter That
probably is I think that sounds because there's a lot of things a lot of things that can't be done on our property Yeah You know Yeah It's like different rules basically and that's what she was saying It seems like a pretty heavy lift to be able to do that in a month and a week or something But I don't
know what would be required of us because I think there's um thought there was like one little section within the chapter and maybe she was saying to just pull that section out and make it its own chapter If it's just
making something a separate paragraph yeah like its own thing that's fine If it's something that we have to draft and add to that'd be really hard for us to do in this time I think Okay She gave me like all these things I'm like which one is it So is she It does make sense to me
So it seems like we at one point had it was maybe it was the Green River area Um and there it was observed that the wreck department was impinging into the conservation area and mowing in an area
they were not supposed to be mowing So does seem like the two areas are sort of connected but I don't know they are to some degree but there's but there's different regulations for different for the different I mean
it'd be nice to have that more clearly delineated because it makes sense that that would be separate in our ordinances um also I mean it's a little unclear to all of us like who takes care of them and what's our responsibility So very great
to have a better understanding of what what all the processes are for us That's in that's your job Yeah Well I was waiting for the the call to action Um I would love to take a look
at this Can you send us Yeah I don't have the attachment She handed it to me So I'll have to get the attachment Okay Uh well this is chapter 322 I can look it up It's on It should be available on Yeah So when's the But yeah so once the original's the So I had to write
original at the top and then um I think this was her um what she wanted to happen Remove conservation land from this section Create a new chapter specifically to me Yeah I will And then yeah put it in the drive so we can all
see Okay And then there's this uh changes to various chapters in the So yeah I don't know what that is but so if she's done the work for us and we're happy with it Perfect I was going to say I think part of it maybe is that they have the the open space open space and recreation plan
Yeah And so it it jumbles all together but yet really different There's different rules and stuff in the beach And it does sort of list which ones are conservation but Okay great So to be continued Yep I'll add it
to the agenda for the next meeting Okay cool Um we've got Looks like we've got two things left on here Um can we shave them down in time or do we need to go um
in depth Oh the the erosion at Green River Conservation Area literally will take me like two minutes I have an idea on that one too So let's let's do that and then then we'll see about the other piece Okay So we'll do that Are we skipping ahead Y skipping ahead All
right So um is this it Um Christie and Kelly made laminated warning signs for the erosion landslide and I hung them up Awesome DW or Rick or
Parks and Parks Sorry I just say her name like everyone should know Christie Morris the director of Parks and Rack Okay thank you Um yeah I'm just like I'm like you know we're like that
Um so this is I'm at the edge Oh wait I'm not sharing I see So this Wait what's happening Allow multiple is Oh I'm still sharing Let me unshare this silly map There we go Wait
All right So this photo is I'm at the edge of Murphy Park And so like you walk into the woods and see that that's the ledge So I hung a sign right there so you can see it from park This is um of course the far other end of this ledge
um going hiking up the trail and see the trails right here So you can go to this side and um so that's the first sign So wait so so you can go around that area and go you can totally go over here It's like open
and easy breezy uh hiking And then so that's what it looks like Um and then so I have four So you see like ones what we just looked at Then a big space This then you can see the
orange tape in the distance Yep And there's the other one Awesome Oh yeah And then what is that What was this Look at this So this this tree like was all kind of had all these little
like you know rotted hole things and um I don't know It looks to me like a little lightning bug I love that too Um they were all over this tree And I didn't know I put those in the And then I took a picture of this which
I also meant to take out Look it's like a little hole that's like spilling butt rock getting ready to get established So that's that Great Um sorry we're good Um so thank you to Chrissy and um Kelly
Kelly for doing those for us Yeah Can we get a PDF of that and post it to our website along with that trail to say be aware that there's part of this trail closed Okay So what do what do you want me to do Get the PDF
So get the PDF So you're gonna go through Mordor Yeah So just if you if they could send you like the the the PDF and then associate that PDF on the website with the um the area itself because like the
areas are listed on our website Yes Um and just like just just an extra layer of caution and you know be aware that there is an issue at this particular hiking trail Watch out for these signs Don't fall off the cliff for the love of
Okay so here's the Green River Nims So you click on it Oh and it brings you to the map trail map The map and then maybe like warning Yes perfect and then just link to that sign and okay yeah just
again an just a layer totally coverage Okay Kristen you seem highly amused I really liked your Mordor joke I do what I can Okay so that's done Yeah my other thing was that there is there is other so this
shouldn't there doesn't need to be anything like right at Murphy Park saying don't go in here at all because there's other places to go right um they can clear they can walk by that without going okay so that answers your question
um yeah I don't think we need to rope it off necessarily if you know people just indeed like use their eyes which you know and saying that like because I know some people aren't self-aware Yes Yes Situational awareness is not
as pervasive as you'd like Okay And then conservation property maintenance Well we now have a new contact of somebody who is willing to go out and do the maintenance for us Sure Yeah He didn't seem like he wanted to until this project was done Yeah that's
fair But I did finally email Lincoln Fish and I have not heard back from him because I just emailed today But um if he has any I asked him if he had any uh lists of things that we had wanted to do or if he was inspired or something just to touch base with him since he'd been
engaged with the project Great That's a perfect perfect direction Um so I took a bunch of photos and I'm just going to There are f I have not thinned this out because like I went Friday it took me so long Kristen Way longer than you said it
I was out there for like two hours that by the end I'm like "Oh my god just get me out of here." Yeah it can be confusing with the loops and stuff Well because I also was like I was like using all trails trying to figure out where these like spots in the map Mitch did and I was like I'm not
there you know whatever It was it was beautiful and great but by the end I was like get me out of here I'm not there Um uh but there's there was a few down trees Um and it seemed like the one that Mitch had taken a photo of had already
been addressed so someone went out there with a chainsaw Um but there's a couple that could be um worked on But then the biggest spot that I noticed was not a spot I think we can like fix
It looked like giant I don't even know what they were White pine or whatever Probably white pine Yeah Yeah fell down like with uproot you know root mass over like a wetland zone that had trail So like to get connect from one
trail to the other trail you had to like go kind of through and it's all like a super wet area I think everyone's been cutting like you can go left right before you come down the little hill and that's where the tree is You can go left and avoid it and that's a shortcut and everyone just does that They just like
that whole leg of the trail is cut off now Maybe we should alter where the trail goes because we don't really want people going through the wetlands right No No It's there's another trail that goes that goes to the left It's like there's so many loops out there like Yeah Yeah And it didn't help I didn't like know where I was I'm like where the
hell am I Like makes you feel any better My Mike and I Mike and I were had that experience as well and we were like I think we might be on private property now Private property Yeah I think there's like a lack of
arrows in certain places that are I'm just trying to find there should there was some Here we go There you go Yeah So see am I sharing No So the path goes by where the roots are up come up That's what it looks like The whole the
eastern white pine is across the whole trail Yeah And it's a huge tree It's like not easy to get around it Is this what you're Is this look like what you're talking about Kristen Yeah That looks like you're facing the other So like if Can I annotate on this I don't know how to annotate Wait I'm in Zoom
right Yeah Well I get confused There's Teams and Zoom Where we're at here right now How do I annotate I don't know how to annotate I don't know if I can but um I don't Yeah
I don't think so Anyways behind the tree and to the right there's a trail that goes over there So if you're doing the loop counterclockwise which most people do and you're coming towards that tree and you can't you don't want to cross it there you can just bang a left and go
and there's the trail connects to where this trail would connect anyway Just a little bit shorter change because the tree Yeah Like to me this looks like a permanent like maybe some better arrows or something need to happen to people I
was like I think this is No I was like did I take Okay so like this I was trying to navigate around these fallen trees and it's like puddle puddle you know like I
had to like go really odd ways to try to get back to the trail And I'm sure Kristen it's probably a lot easier than what I did No no I think that you just hit the nail on the head I mean I know enough to wear boots cuz it's always wet But I think that we what we don't want
is we don't want people not sticking to the trail because they don't want to get wet shoes if they're not wearing boots and then create soil compaction and trail braiding So we want you know to encourage people to stay on the trail with the use of like punchins or um
cookies or whatever Yeah Yeah Totally There should be just better s I think signage Yeah And then maybe a little edit to the map the trail map to not show them connecting in the
area Also that that bridge the like the big long bridge is pretty sketchy Um I'm gonna fall through it one of these These are just a couple like down trees and then I don't even I don't I don't even
know what what Oh Oh I'm going the wrong way We have batouses too that were donated to us that I wanted to put up by the um the field There you go Here's the So I was coming down the trail and then these are the down trees Yeah So if you hang a
left right there that trail connects If you went straight you would eventually hook up with where that trail to the left hooks up Like they connect It's just a really short shortcut So you can just go left and skip that whole trail al together Totally But I was trying to find these dots on the map So I didn't
want to go left So that would have gone like that way I wanted to go right but the trees were there So I don't know if like other people do this I think the only the only kiosk that you're ignoring if you if you don't go past that tree is
one that's no longer there anyways It's for a like a It was for a hollow log that like a rough grouse you know thumping log and like a snake basking rock pile and they're both gone Is that is that to the left there Is
that where it goes like skirts that meadow kind of thing But yeah it you got to get through the woods first and then it gets to that meadow You're absolutely right Like this looks like it's likely a wetland but I It is And then all in
these woods were like the like vernal pooly puddle Yeah It's a hemlock forest Yeah with wet soils for sure Okay at this point I don't even know if I'm going the right direction Am I going
back the other way Oh my gosh Okay it's so confusing that you can get lost just looking at where am I Oh but it was a beautiful day It was like 60 degrees Oh nice Oh so I think this was the tree that Mitchell was like
"Oh it needs to be cut." And it was nice and cut So somebody took their chainsaw on their walk Yeah Someone's like taken matters into their own hands Okay So here's the long bridge Yeah And I believe that was built by like
maybe the Boy Scouts I think so But yeah it needs it needs some TLC for sure And I thought there was another area up from there that was really bad that we were talking about maybe putting one in weren't we Yeah there was another spot
right at the very beginning Um that's pretty wet Yeah The problem with that spot at the very beginning was that I think that the landowner who also logs out there needs to drive his equipment at that spot And so it needed
to be like vehicle sturdy not just like a punchin or something And I think I looked at that with like with my augur a couple years ago and it looked like it was you know pretty questionably wet and definitely in buffer zone So it would be
an NOI So as far as priorities go though like just as what I gathered that wooden bridge and then like maybe three down trees such as the one on the screen like
this is you can tell see the field This is like towards the beginning of the trail Um but there is a trail that's like people are making through the woods to get around this tree Um and
then that yeah that I mean it if you're just doing loops that those two down white pines whatever they were um you know you can keep going on the trail They're not across like they're not preventing you
from progressing forward It's just I was trying to go on the like the side connector and they did prevent me from going on the side connector Um and I think Link was gonna get um or Lincoln was going to do he got a grant right to
like redo all the kiosks and the wildlife habitat stuff and redo all of it So do we know anyone with like a chainsaw that uh we're supposed Well when I was on a
meeting with Marlo from DPW recently I asked "So what do we do What what can we look to you for?" And he said "The kinds of things that DPW does is to clear trails that have been you know had fallen trees and then maybe put
sawduster chips down to you know get a trail better into condition So this sounds like some of these are things that DPW could do Okay Um the signs are things that we would do I think Right Okay
So I'll reach out to DPW with the request Yeah For the down trees and see what and then maybe ask him what the procedure should be um or if we would work with them on the bridge or if that's something that we would have to
contract out Okay Okay I mean that might be easy enough to just sort of put out there to boy scout or girl scout troops You need I'm sorry I couldn't hear what Emily and Erica were just saying but I think if we wanted to put down anything like that's new like punchin or
something or bridges it might need to be a permit Yeah it's it's more complex to do bridges and things that are built So um like with the land trust you know it we're trying to replace a bridge on one
of our streams on one of our properties and it's taken a long time because the specs are just more rigorous now So what we had there before we wouldn't put there Okay I'll report back what the DPW says Great Thank you That's that's all I have
for today Right on I'm glad you had fun and hopefully you learned your way around and you'll go back Yeah I'll go back But I Yeah Well you Okay So like definitely
there was I was getting to you know this one spot in the map and I'm like flipping through these photos and I'm like "Oh there's a bike in this photo." So I think Mitch and Travis rode their bikes around and that's Yeah like
to save time I was like "Oh that's sense." Because I actually that was actually one of my concerns was because I when I was out there a little while ago a long while ago Um there was a there was a bunch of like dirt I mean I don't think they were dirt bikes I think they
were just mountain bike tracks through the mud Yeah Like really ringing it out and stuff And um so I was Yeah I don't know if I can Are mountain bikes not allowed back there I don't think there's any I don't think there's anything that says they
can't but I don't know what Well okay I will um Yeah I'll report back and maybe bring a bike next time You can ride horses out there Oh a bunch of horse manure Yep Well thanks for the
update Yes Hey but do you believe that was the last item on our agenda for the evening I closed my computer I'm sorry It was the last one Okay But do you need do you want this to like hear the the motion No
Um I think the next thing we do is set our next meeting date which will be April 22nd 2025 Yes So set Um and then we move to a motion to close the meeting Oh motion to adjurnn
Second All right let's take a vote Kristen I Emily I Erica I am also an I See you all again April 22nd Sounds good Have a good night everyone Good night
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