Uh roll call members. We have D Marggo Jones chair here. Uh Sarah Bulldog secretary Terry Stigers Jeremy Anderson
and Doug Doug up there and other guests. Well, staff, we have Aaron, Aaron Anvalt, and uh John Garrett from city council regarding the high restrict uh
review high change amendment and also we have gentlemen from St. James and Andrews. So, okay. Uh if I could get your name just you can write it down and you think you want to. Sure. For the record. Sure. You go in minutes, right? Okay. So,
first item under old business is uh a letter that I wrote regarding um the schoolhouse number seven. Did everybody get a chance to read it? Does anyone want to read that out? Yes. Any corrections or anything? No, I
actually think it sounds really good. Yes. Okay. I'm not going to read it because we have a lot on the agenda, but uh here you can look at it. Okay. I will issue that. Thank you. 170 to 186 main
project. They submitted more drawings. Uh, and can you get them up? He is like ser a lot, but uh think that basically what they've done is
added on this piece. That's Yes. It's very small. Well, that's okay. It's better than those. Have you looked at it, Jim? I haven't seen this yet. Yeah. Um, so
any other Well, any comments? What's it made of? We don't No. So, they've got a cornice up there and it looks to be in a contrasting color, but we don't know the material. Right. Right. Well, it's still it's still a
detail that the building sadly needed. So, I think I was hoping it would be brick myself, but I guess it has to span between the metal siding or whatever the vertical siding is and the brick and
if this what is that the drive that you'll be using? Yeah, it's projects. Projects. Yeah, it doesn't even mention. It does help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's handy. There's only so many material that could be for the application.
Oh yes, that was just a suggestion. I'm glad I took the suggestion to see. So I was a little happy to pass the story and just fine. They came back and we did their
diligence. Yeah. Okay. Um I mentioned here the two subcommittees has the to get feedback on how things are going. Sure. Database maps. I am still
living on it. It's taking forever. Yeah. It's a big big job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in progress in Paris. Yes. Great. And demolition delay ordinance changes. Uh likewise in Paris.
the one baby being born, another baby. I was in the emergency room a few days ago. Oh, no. She could have [Music] walked very all understood. Maybe over the summer,
maybe by September we get that long sometime over the next 18. That would be good. So then the next time is the letter about college. Oh yeah. Yeah. Mostly made me feel old.
I'm working with him in a long time and last time I did my boy was a toddler and his kids were babies. not all high school which um but the short answer is we really there's nothing going on over there that really should interest us. Um
it was an old very old Eversource project that got expanded. Their corridor didn't expand much. The archaeologist went through and they did a survey in Mountain and Greenfield. Found a couple of things in Mont Greenfield.
bullet or what are they called? Must have told nothing. Nothing. No. And the only reason that we were included in a CN letter is because for the job they were doing, the board of engineers were involved. And when they're involved, all
the T's get extra crosses and the I's get extra dots. So they just tacked us on to the list even though they ordinarily wouldn't have even talked to us. They didn't they didn't find anything from that period. So not in Greenfield because well they there are
known sites there. Yeah. But they there they didn't do a survey then. They're known sites. So there they were avoided before and they got okay then it's always catching up a little. So in any archaeological survey at any step of line is avoid right if you can. Gosh.
Always the first step. So So they avoided previously. Yeah. Years ago they found I think it was three different sites that they found way back when they did the job origin and they avoided them and there's no reason to go back over that ground for this. So they didn't
they didn't find anything new or at least not in Greek years. Okay. So we can cross this list of concerns. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Glad you knew the person. It's very helpful. Yeah. So to talk to
Yeah. Great. Paleontology gets uh and archaeology gets short shrimp sometimes. And in neither person nor I could figure out why the word paleontology was included in good coordinating with though because I
don't think has been really involved in a lot of that stuff with you know battleground sites and stuff here. some I Google their indigenous people. Um that was on the list.
They they um I I can't remember the last time that I even know of an archaeological survey being done without native observers. Okay. It just that's standard thing. The neighbors of our of our group routinely work at that. That's what they
do. Yeah. Okay, I think we're under. Yes, Sarah, before we go on to new business, I just want to say on the record on camera, I did submit my candidacy for city council. So, I'm trying to run city council. Not that it will come up, but anything that does come up like that,
just for the record, that it's in the paper now. But I can't I can't sign for instance, the things with like the Russell Dam Russell Dam and all that kind of stuff in precinct seven. So just because
that hope we get any business that is be transparent. Thank you. Good luck. Yeah. The dollar store and get a sign. It has to be about 367. It's going to be great. And that cares about 367
district as far as the like industrial history. Thank you very much. Okay. Yeah. So I I know we want to have a robust discussion about a couple of the items on new business. Um first one
was uh just reporting on proposed demolition stream and I don't think we why you have the system right because Jeremy and I are both reviewing composed demolitions and
Jeremy got notification one that I did and we said it was okay. It was a garage that looked historic. So that was proved. Uh, is there any other I don't I mean there was the Oh, the
mayor the office the rest of the building had been voted on already. So there's no question there that that was so do you need to see if Mark should like is that where the I I just haven't I haven't followed it out. It's my fault. Yeah, I
think that there's a new person working in his office. Yes. And she got Jeremy's email and maybe didn't get mine. I just have to At least one of us seems to be getting Okay. No, I think it's I I got to cross the TW.
Okay. And we have uh the next item is the Gable detail at St. James and Anthem Church. Uh many of you saw that the roof flew off, parts of the roof flew off and um and uh there Renaissance builder was
kind enough to call me to see if we would be we would care about the detail and I think we would. So that's why we had these gentlemen here tonight. Uh so Stephen had sent you
stuff. Did you not do you not have that? I did bring a couple of copies, but I don't have several copies. I had the original proposal. Did it get modified at all? Oh, good. I think he sent he said he sent you this because I looked
at it and I said, I can't believe you said that with all those titles on but he did. Um, so but I can uh quickly and I go over to brought a couple of photos to
um so people can see what we're talking about. So this standing you're standing down you're standing down on the ground looking up at the looking up at the room. Now I've hearing of this um can I get brought up to speed? How when how
did this all happen? uh maybe early March, right? Yeah, I was going to say six, eight weeks ago, maybe. So, there was a big windstorm and it it um caught the caught the metal roofing and started pulling it up and once part of it started to go, it all started to go. So,
um we went and and tacked it down and did some investigating and determined that it all needs to be replaced. It was um at the time probably was done to the code and standards but not to current standards. Um it was
uh the roofing was screwed into OSB which had um two inches of insulation underneath it. So the roofing itself was depending on OSB that was sitting on the top of insulation on a vapor barrier over the the roof
sheathing and underneath that is the finished ceiling of the chip. So um so the OSB deteriorated and that's why the screws were coming out. And so in the course of determining
what we need to do to fix it, um we uh the 2 in of insulation does not no longer beat. And so we need 4 in of insulation. And um our engineer has determined that we also need to have an
airspace because part of the problem with the the sheathing deteriorating is the fact that moisture is getting behind it. There's no way more to move out. So we need to have an air space. Um his recommendation is um 2x4s. So we can get
an inch and a half inch and a half air space. So what that does in relation to this picture here is this is obviously the current roof surface tacked back down. On top of this we need to add another two inches of
insulation and two inches of air space. So that brings the that brings the level of the new roofing up above the the stonework on the eaves of the building.
Mhm. So one proposal was to um go over the stonework but that was determined to not be a good proposal. So what we are I mean I need my colleagues to agree or disagree with me
on that but that was my initial reaction that do you have a picture what's the amended wait a minute what's what's the amended so
so the the amended idea involves um putting u um let's see what's he got yeah two two two by10s on end along here which allows us to have um have something this is kind of just a a a
flat version. It allows us to have two inches of insulation air space and two inches of insulation. Um and and the the roof sheathing um don't you mean four inches four inches of insulation two additional
inches. Someone's got to keep those. Um and and then and then with adequate space to to get flashing in around here because the other thing that we discovered when we
were looking at this is this is not really adequate flashing. Um it's between the stone and the group. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of sort of tacked down and and is not really is is not doing it job. not really affected.
You're proposing to go over the steps. No. So, no. So, no. Um, we are not now proposing to go over the steps. If you imagine this is one of the steps. What we would have is we would have um we
would have the the 2x10 which we of course will, you know, cut down as much as we can. Sure. But, but it may end up being, you know, the full 2x10 to 9 and a/4 in. So you still have the steps along the edge of the gate would be higher and the flashing
would be the other direction going the other direction. Right. So then we could Yeah. This allows us this allows us to to to flash they're moving properly. Great. What that means with this though is that means that behind this these steps
um from from the straight from from the face of the building you probably won't even be able to see it just because of the angle. from the side you'll be able to see it. What you'll see is you'll see a you'll see a you know 2 by10 you you'll see you'll see a line coming up
here alongside this. Sure thing. But you'll be seeing you'll be seeing roofing. You'll so you'll be seeing this roofing this roofing level. Um much further. Yeah. Higher than the
gable. But from this, you know, from the front elevation, you won't really see that line. You won't really you won't really see it because it's so far above you. Yeah. Um but from But from the side, you will notice you will notice
that. Okay. this this part in the center sticks up further, right? And um like I said, we would endeavor to make it stick up as as little as possible, but it is going to stick up. This was your
first on this, you know, this is the step on the Yeah. This this is this piece of spelt. This this is the piece that will be looking at from the What color would that piece up? So this is this would
have the the lead coated copper wrapped around. So this this material this material would would essentially look the same the same as the roof. Yes. Roofing would look similar as now just a
newer version. Yeah. Right. Did everybody get without all the waves and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I mean personally I don't I don't have any problem with that. It's a reasonable solution to the problem. Bones is lead colored and the
roof is lead colored and you're only seeing it from from certain angles potential. I'm not sure character. Bible is probably better with that than me. It's um copy for Bible and I think it's our
oldest church. Don't know matches up the second. Oh, it's early. No, remember there was a wooden one there before, right? Okay. When was this? When was that? I think it's 1840. Really?
Yeah. It also looks like this two by 10 instead of going over the test only adding three inches to the height. Let's find it. Anyway, it's already positive steps. Right. Doors are
Yeah. And the reason that we haven't come up in the level of space I don't know. This is fantastic. I'm sorry. We're having a really hard time hearing you. Please in conversation
please. Our concern was um was around dollars and cents and what the insurance company was going to cover and not so there was something required in order to maintain the historicals and integrity that was going to be way above and beyond the insurance company was of course they were always ready to say no
we're not going to show anything. So, so our concern is to make sure that it was all fitting in uh the acceptable. We can't hear you. So, you can't hear us? No. No, we're having a very difficult
time hearing what your conversation is about. We can hear muttering, but we can't hear clarity. We have a not very good mic system. Where's the mic? They're incorporated into the speaker. Okay. Okay. So you need I'll repeat
repeat myself. Yeah. Um so our our main concern was whether or not there was going to be anything required to maintain the historical integrity of the building that would be way above and beyond in terms of the from the perspective of the insurance because there you would say oh no no no we'll
pay for this but not for that. So we were condemned to really be up the ship. So um that was our concern. So distance. Well, this this wouldn't be more expensive. Well, covering up the steps. Um,
can't imagine why it would. No, no, no. The the it in fact it might end up being more expensive to cover up the steps because then we've got another we have another challenge right here. Our our challenge stops at the stairs. Correct.
Yeah, my understanding too is this new version was done in coordination with the insurance adjusters engineer who came out right in some way. There's a second meeting like a week ago or um I thought it was our engineer that was there. Yeah, it was our one from the
insurance company. He didn't know anything. He just kind of looked and talked to Steve and that was about it. Yeah. So, yeah, we don't have an official word yet on because I think originally they're like we're only covering up to this. this is beyond that and we were worried it wouldn't cover anything if we
had that initial proposal. So, we're kind of in a waiting period on this second proposal, but that's our main concern because of course maybe this would be much less expensive. Yeah, but there's two entries in for this. So, this is going to be the one for the
Episcopal Church which is GRE77. It is on the national register. Yeah. Speak up, Sarah. Sorry. And yeah, can you give me the date? 1847 1847. Yeah, it's it's very So I really appreciate that it came your builder
came to us. It's really uh honory our our job and this new solution looks great. So is every we still have a vote. I'll entertain a motion to approve. So move. All those in favor?
you there. Right. Great. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for and thanks for taking care of your historic building. Thanks for your lives as well. building. Thank you.
Oh, we didn't. Okay. Sorry, we went right past that. Thank you. Thank you. Going back quickly, I'd like to hear a motion to approve the minutes, the amended minutes. So move. Second. Seconded. All those in favor? I
I. Great. Thank you, Stephanie. I mean, Sarah. Okay. Uh, next item is something that I put on here. There's a proposed amendment to be budgeted at city cap next week
uh to raise the height in central commercial for new build well for all buildings to from I think it's 45. That's right. I think there's an exception to 55 if you get like a special perimeter.
Yeah. I mean 55 is the tallest building. Yeah. Yeah. The building. Yeah. Yeah. How many how many? So, we have John Barrett here, Garrett, sorry, who is one of the city councilors that has been
involved in this fees amendments. Um, and not this one in particular, although I do support the idea of raising the height limit. Frankly, if I had proposed this, it would have been stories rather than feats, but that's frankly this is the amendment on the table and I'm going to vote for it because I can give you
various reasons, but I don't know what would be the most helpful to you. Um, so do you want me to just kind of talk at you or do you have Yeah. What's the rationale? Uh, so the rale for the 80 ft I am not entirely sure why he picked 80 ft. So it's counselor master that this
particular number. I think the idea is basically there's no one who's likely to find an economic case in Greenfield to build taller than that. And so the ultimate reason for doing any sort of height restriction lifting is because we're in a housing crisis and we need more housing. The central commercial
district is the only district in the city that doesn't have parking minimums or setbacks for buildings as you guys I'm sure are aware. Um and so this is really the area of town in which we're most likely to actually be successful. And so by little reason
there have been numerous studies the standard regal master plan the green housing study Franklin County regional housing plan specific to our city but also just piles of research saying that housing density is the best way to actually improve the
affordability of housing. And so since we're out of land in the center of the city building up is really the only option. the alternative being further suburbanization and sprawl. And so, you know, I personally that to me is anathema to our goals as a sustainable city. We have farmland. We need to
preserve it. If we want to have a green economy, then we need to build more we can build, especially in the areas that are developed and disturbed. Um, the central commercial district historically was much denser than it is now. I'm sure you guys are deeply aware of like San Warren fire insurance maps. I look at
them all the time. I love them. You know, Anthony Law, I uh I figured that if I said that, you know what I was talking about? And that thrills me beyond belief. Are you a history teacher? I'm a history teacher. Yes. I teach high school history. I It is, you know, my obviously. And so the you know,
I I apologize, by the way, for my slightly snippy response in the email I sent you. Talking to me about Paris. Yeah. I know. I I am is nothing if not passionate. And so that is again and I just want to fully own that I wrote that email with a
crying baby. We've been talking about this for months. So I my apologies for my talent, but I appreciate my apologies for coming late to the game. But but you know the 80 tremors or you know
yelling matches have this thing has this part of the zoning amendments proposed didn't hit the paper. I haven't heard anybody talk about it was in the paper. There was public hearing about it. There was a public hearing, but it was with the ADUs and the co the paper
covered ADU this way and that way and up and down, but not a hype change. There's been a lot of opinion pieces in the paper. It was a kind of Yeah, kind of strange time. Yeah, I I understand definitely, you
know, especially considering it's the historic center of the city to keep an eye on it. And so, you know, again, I I get where you folks are coming from. Um, and to me, we really have no choice but again to build up if we want to actually have affordability. Uh, one of the the Greenfield housing study estimates we
have like a 700 unit gap in the next decade that we need to build in order to keep things stable. That's not to make things better. Like, we are going to be in an affordability crisis even if we do that. And so, we're it's the it's a five alarm fire to use the metaphor of the
building we're in as far as housing is concerned. And just to reemphasize, the key with a central commercial district is a lack of parking minimum. So you can actually build density that is going to have an economic effect that's measurable. Um we love housing downtown.
It provides vitality. It gives customers. It helps commercial. I don't think anybody's going to argue with you and disturb about the need for affordable housing. As you know, we just have been working with a project, the Wilson's project, which is one of those
things that's going on. Um, but yeah, nobody's going to argue with you about that. So, that's a preaching to the choir here when it comes to that. Okay. The question is, it ft. That's the question. Clarity has what does because I'm not
good with visual. I do this. The tallest building downtown. Now, I mean, you talk about stories. I how tall is our tallest building in this? Four stories. How many stories will this add to the Springfield? Probably eight stories I want to say or
10. Street is not in the That's a different That's a different No, it's So what's the highest int? Yeah, it's there now. to focus. The reason I'm asking is because
one Yeah. The reason I'm asking is that it's my understanding that the the reason the fire department needs the the truck that the height that they have to buy, which is extremely expensive, is because of the highrise. Oh, and that's why I wanted to know what's the relative
height of the high-rise versus this. So, these buildings would this I'm really wellversed from the fire truck issue. So, um sorry to jump in. That's all right. Um the 50 foot is still less than the high-rise or the 80 foot is still I believe less than the highrise and
um because we have a highrise they need the truck. So no matter what that that doesn't change if they don't get it all of our owners insurance goes up. No not arguing that at all. What I'm saying is is I wanted to know what the relative heights were and you've just told me
that. So I'm okay I just wanted to know that that question. No, I can I just ask? So, so we we only review historic projects and we then get to me, you in a
weigh in on whether they fit the historic environment or not. And clearly an 80 foot building in Main Street historic district not going to it's not going to it's going to stick
out. So I guess just it my response to that is like so Main Street historically you know if we want to go back to the 1700s had no three-story brick buildings you know prior to that it was you know this was a section of this was a section of deer you know so that things change
and I know that you know buildings heights currently you know we have what's you know Wilson's as we've been discussing is 55 ft right that being and five stores and what we did since the 1930s as you guys are well aware is we subsidize single family home ownership
and the development of suburbia. And so this city is in a state of arrested development compared to what it would have been if the interstate highway system wasn't developed, if the federal housing authority didn't prioritize single family homes and suburbs and places out into you know again what was
prime farmland. So I if we didn't take those policies over the last century, there would be built taller buildings in downtown and you can see it in places that didn't suburbanize in quite the same way as the United States. So I understand again that a building 80 ft tall would stick out tremendously but
we're playing catchup over really since the 1970s 80s is what the housing study revealed. We effectively stopped building permits with any sort of ease to folks made it really difficult to build housing. So, I know it feels extreme to say, you know, number 8 ft. And like I said, it's not the number I
would have picked. I would have probably been a little frankly more modest. Like six stories would have been fine. Wouldn't have gotten a whimper, right? He evidence meeting at the but I am I regretted my tone and I wanted to have
like a conversation with you folks and I don't think 80 ft is going to harm the city's character especially because I read the Mass General law on that you folks operate under and you still have the authority to alter the setbacks and the height if it's not appropriate and so I think you should feel safe in the
power that your committee has to keep things in downtown appropriate um and you know there are going thoughts like you know I think you mentioned in your email the hope street lot yeah that building right there the you know the extension on the courthouse there's no reason you couldn't have an 80 foot building next to that you know as far as
aesthetics are concerned you know and again you know there's no reason to have any not have that I think that I think that's you know especially the way it steps down with the armory there which is a large mass you know and aesthetics actually I think are extremely important so the fact that you guys will continue
to have that authority to make sure the aesthetics make sense I think should be I don't think I'm talking about main street. I know. So am I. Yeah. But I I I have to say that if if he had a
fivetory hype in in your the proposed change, which would be six or wouldn't be having this meeting. There wouldn't be any problem. It wouldn't hurt anybody. And I have really hard time imagining somebody coming in and saying, "I want to build a tall building on Main
Street, okay? And I want to build it 80 feet tall, but you can only allow 60, so I'm not going to build it. I just have a really hard time under I agree with this. Let's let's let's go back and say, you know, whatever. Let's decrease
the hype and then we won't have any problem." The difficulty of getting a zoning amendment passed cannot be overstated. Like the fact that this happens at all to get to this point is fantastic. And if we don't take this opportunity, we could be waiting. Can't
you amend it? No. It sends you back to I don't even know why it was 80. I talked to the man who wrote it and he basically said, I picked 80 because no one's going to want to build taller than 80. So that's exactly the reason not to approve it
because says 65 ft. I haven't been able to figure out Northampton, but I'm pretty sure they're 65. So, one of the things I found about so I used to live in Hampton before I moved to the city and I got priced out by the price of apartments and I want us to do better than Northampton and Ammeris in East
Hampton and all these cities that are rapidly becoming unaffordable that young people can't live in. And the way we do that is to be bold. And as much as I wouldn't oppose ADP, I 100% support it because we are in a crisis. You know, I I teach high school. The things my
students are the most afraid of are climate change and not being able to afford a house constantly. Constantly. They're always talking about it. Excuse me, chair. Yes. Um, is this an open discussion or are is the public going to be able to weigh in on this discussion
because it sounds like a petitioning um for the historical commission to reconsider its actual goals. So, I wanted to weigh in if this is an open discussion. If not, is it just a presentation? It's I don't think so. It's not a public
hearing. Uh but you're a after um councelor Garrett has talked we will consider your if you want to talk we can have you talk as well. Thank you.
So do you have any more? I mean I there is going to So one of the things that happens with zoning in general is the people that tend to show up and say there tends to be majority of people that want to see no change whatsoever, right? Every single time. And there have been lots of studies about this
recently. There's a great book neighborhood defenders that comes out about the publicity process and how it basically styies housing development in the Anglo world. You know, so this is not just a green field problem. This is an entire United States, Australia, New Zealand, et
Yeah, it is. It's really it's a terrible situation we find ourselves in and it's not, you know, the market alone is not going to save us from this problem. This is only a small piece of the puzzle, but it is an important piece. And again, with the caveat that if I had done this, I would have done it differently. And I
I'm not trying to throw council master under the bus with that, but what he's proposing is still going to be workable and I don't think it's going to be a crisis as far as the city's aesthetics or the way that the historic district is maintained. So that's kind of my I'm happy to say anything else about I
haven't lost thoughts if you can't tell a historical base. I like the fact. Yeah. Well, uh Stephanie, did you want to speak? Yes. Thank you. Stephanie Duclo on Chapman Street. I actually abut the central commercial district. So I do
have some concerns about the height. Um and I do believe that it would actually change the character of the downtown if we went to 80. I know that um other cities in Massachusetts have, you know, gone 60 and that seems to work. It's
quite beautiful. Fits in with the character. I mean we used to be Deerfield and they've kind of kept their historical beauty. Um, I just see, you know, once we, I guess, separated and broke away from them, we decided we're, you know, not like them anymore. Um,
but, you know, I'm I'm pro preserving as much as we can of what we had. I'm not anti-development, as many people um are alluding to. Um, I actually am pro smart development and taking into considerations anything that someone
might be able to bring up if they were to want to sue us for some violation of a of some other law. But so those are all always my concerns about, you know, changing something that would definitely change a character of our downtown. I'm not anti-ousing. I don't think we should
go higher than 65 if that's the highest that most of our areas are doing. So, I know it's not a public hearing, but I, you know, I was a little concerned as to why this particular issue was being brought up at at the historical commission when um your your goals and
your objectives of the historical commission is to really preserve what we have for history. And um I did want to speak to the archa archaeological stuff. Um I'm not sure if I'm sure you guys know that we were once Lake Hitchcock.
So, we were an extension of of why we find a lot of the um you know the remnants of that um history as well. Thank you for letting me speak. Sure. Okay. Um this was a item that I brought
to the table and you know there is it it's late in the game. There's a special city council meeting next Thursday, May 8th. May 8th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I understand that there will be public
comment. Is that right? Lots of public comment. There will we we've expressed our opinion here. I guess that's all we came here for. That's all the only reason was all general. Jerry, do you want to end? Well, I a few maybe points and
questions, thoughts. Um, yeah, three thing I think. One related to the question of our authority. My understanding as I think was pointed we as it is now we have no official
standing or authority to influ like we can make recommendations but we can't control what happens now because our only purview is if something gets demolished obviously there's my big concern as a preservationist anytime there's the allowance for major
development is that it can encourage demolition energy you said like those would still come back to us. We'd have the opportunity to, you know, enact a demolition delay. And certainly that's my So my my really my concern would be,
you know, that it encourages demolishing smaller buildings for larger buildings, which would be, you know, something that in my mind really changes character. But again, we have tools in place to to combat that. Um if as is you know one of the things on our agenda if we do go the
route of designating the downtown as or any portion as a um as a local historic district and become a historic district commission then at that stage then this commission or similar commission would have authority to review and have
influence over what is built. So there is a world where even though we don't have a standing now in a year that's a local historic district maybe and then in that situation then we do have a similar body the authority to say you
know that doesn't fit in. So that's I think something that would be down the road. I and my only other thing I I maybe not in the not in the camp of every other preservationist in that I for me a
demolition of a historic building or blocks and changes the character a lot more than added height. I mean, I have seen I don't want to I do not want to compare Greenfield to Seattle, but I'm
gonna bring it. I I've seen I mean, I tend to be maybe less hardlined. I'm pretty hardline in a lot of preservation things, but in this issue and I know Seattle, which has considerably more development pressure, has um some really interesting districts where they have preserved, you know, two
three preserved two threetory buildings with, you know, an extra 30 feet on top and they're I mean enormous and and they certainly change the character of the building, but to me that's a whole lot better than the demolition of the building. So I do from my perspective at least I do agree that you know adding an
extra two stories onto a building you know changes the character but to me it's a lot better than the demolition of the building and I don't get as scared of extra height next to an
older building as I do about um I have a question from one of your points if the were you talking about change in the role of the historic commission to have more oversight. What that's our next item. Gotcha. So there there's like
there's different types of historic commissions that can exist in Massachusetts and we are the one right now without oversight over new construction over the historic district. But we could potentially be
right. our only uh power is to respond to mass historic when there's historic tax credits involved. So most downtown projects involve historic tax credits. If there's a historic building now, they're going to want to go for the tax credit, which is
25%. And can really make or break the funding. And Wilson's has it. Uh all the all the latest projects have had historic tax credit. So we we do have some pl but we're hoping we can actually
develop if we changed if we added this into it be different but but once the zoning allows by right 80 ft we're just whistling in the wind. I mean so just I have a quick clarifying question about this um potential
new role. Would that be approved by the council or is it Yes. Okay. say it's somewhere in between historic district has to be approved by city council to be voted it has to be
authored by city house and and I believe the mayor could veto that as well I can take a couple things one you mentioned um the issue of destroying smaller building to build a larger building I'm with you on
that but wouldn't building up actually help mitigate that because if you're going to build a larger building and it has to go this way, Yeah. Yeah. you need more space this way. Whereas if you're going up, you need less of a boat. And
so you you would actually get less destroying of smaller buildings by going up. Yeah. And I I might not have been I I guess my thrust was that I I agree. I'm I think this is not a perfect, you know, I'd love I'd
rather it be 60, but this is a better I'd rather see two extra stories on top of it. Actually, that 15 is not that big of a deal. Well, it may be a hill to die. It's only a
perspective problem, but it's not an actual and it's a limit, not a normal. You're not going to assume it's going to build. I for what it's worth, I really do love the idea of preserving facads at the very least. You know, there's a building, you know, like the First National Bank. I know for a while there
was talk about potentially preserving the facade and then doing something else behind it. Although I hear that we have better news in that category according to the Yes. which is so I really want to know. Yeah. What's up? Yeah. And so very excited about it and so is Sandy. Our
director of development is also very excited. My heart I'm excited by this. Oh, I know. It's really, you know, I live. Can we do the old library too? What say? So, so is it too late to just say stories instead of AD? I did my
damnedest even before the public hearing to get the person introduced it to change it and he utterly refused. So I tried I really did and again it was the recommendation of Perkog and various other organizations our you know development department also recommended
it and he didn't want to change it after the first instance of introduction is and that was that and so you know I don't know this but it might be one of those numbers that crops up because like 2x4s are 8t long and it may be one of
those numbers that crops up because of some stupid capacity an elevator. Well, what's it five stories? They they never built a building five stories until elevator came in. True. Yeah. And you have to
have an elevator now for any story. Yes. Or anything over back in the day. Back in the day, they restricted it. Okay. Well, um if anybody wants Thanks for coming in. Yeah. No, and if somebody wants to build an 80 foot building
downtown, we're still going to be in the discussion, right? That's my understanding. There are parts of downtown that aren't a national registered district. Yes. But then we would have a saying that anyway, wouldn't we? Right. They would. So, they could just go ahead and build it, right?
They want to be agree. But there's other there's other there's other obstacles that have to be encountered and and and conquered in order for that to happen. And we're part of that discussion too. But
going not as an official body, but we're we're certainly Yeah, we still would be. two three come to the post come to the meeting like you know there will be lots of people that are going to be loud it's going to be a humble
it's to me it's really a shame that adus and this extension are at the same yeah they shouldn't be both I mean I get they're the same they're they're responsive to the same underlying crime which is a huge problem yeah just a little of the soft making.
They weren't intended to be at the same meeting, but an email didn't get it. The logistics of it, there was an error, you know, human error. These things happen and so it had to get delayed and then it became a race against time to avoid having to do a second public hearing, right? And so now we can have the full
council vote on it, but we have to have the special meeting so the 90-day timer doesn't run out and then we have to do the whole thing again. So that's that's really the challenge. And so that's where my desire to not start this block again comes from is that it's again the scheduling of it is the challenge and
especially because it's budget season and this is very this is a very serious budget season like there's a lot you know obviously with the schools there's a huge amount of care that has to go into this so we've been heavily focused on that again my apologies for tone I will say that as many times as come to
my mind but you know I again appreciate you folks and the care you put into your work so thanks Okay, thank you. Appreciate it. Do you want to hear this next bit, though? So, if you don't mind the baby's gone, you know, well, maybe we missed the baby.
Much more time. So, let us talk fast. Uh, we have in the back of our minds always thought about having a historic zoning district, a local historic district as a
zone. And u Sarah has this book. It's if we historic most the recent version that I have here is from 2021. There are others you will find online from like 2003 modified 2007 but the most current one is this one from 2021. Okay. And those districts allow us
to be if the city were to pass one and it only has to be like you know six properties doesn't have to be all of the national register main street district or it it's funible how big it is. But once you have a local historic district,
then you get bumped into certified local government. So you get 10% more funding for this and that. I'm really not sure what the stuff, but this survey. I have a actually a PowerPoint from Longman
about benefits to becoming a certified local government. Oh, cool. It's it's their PowerPoint, but I can pull it up. Great. So, so we have we're eager to to get that.
Um, and you know, we think Greenfield has has a downtown that is beautiful and historic and certainly worth preserving as best we can. And this would be this would give us a few more tools and it
would give us more money. But but you know be aware that when we talk about preserving, we have approved the Wilson's project. We have approved other projects. So we're not when we say preserve, we're not talking about putting it and wrapping it in
saran wrap and saying I can't touch a brick of this beautiful decaying building. It's because it's our favorite decaying building, right? Uh I mean there you know this is this group has shown in the past that we're you know when solar cell they want to put solar cells on the roof of the original
courthouse. We said fine you can't see them from the street and they said we can't see them from the street. We said hey go for it. And so there's a number of other projects that we have intervened on without saying you know the saran wrap thing. So that's a that's
a different situation. We think that the situation with the church was a good example of of how this committee works well and tries to play nice with others for lack of a better term. And it worked out really well in that situation. So it
sure didn't. Yeah. But I think uh Sarah was saying earlier in the meeting, beginning of the meeting, she's saying, you know, unfortunately there's a general opinion of historic commissions as being stick in the butt people who won't let anything be changed and don't
want any, you know, whatever, whatever. And we work really hard to not be like that group. But on the other hand, this seems to be a a reasonable way for us to go to look at to go forward without
saying we're going to declare wholesale huge swaths of the town. You can't touch the paint because it's the original paint, you know, so you had need to understand that's where that's the way at least I'm thinking there is a legal process to follow as well. It has to go
through the city council and the city council votes essentially to first to basically decide whether or not to have an exploratory committee to form a historic district committee and that district committee then is the
historical commission for that district. Yeah. that may be a subcommittee on the historical commission, but it is a process where it's a it's basically like a democratic process where the city decides what it wants and it's not just like the historical commission is like, "Well, we're going to do this and you
know, it's not just throwing forward." Exactly. Well, and individual homeowners get to say yes. The smallest uh historical district in Massachusetts is one building. Oh, really? The largest is Nantucket because it's a whole Oh, mom's
here. Bird homie. I want just my kitchen and essentially so a local historic district uh basically just establishes locally or through town meeting or city council vote. uh it that's how it's uh erected and it provides a regulatory
review process for all chams to exterior architectural features visible from a public way which so far the city uh and the circle commission have kind of honored in general with each other knowing that this whole thing kind of exists but it would just establish a formal precedent with the city and
actually establish a commission for that process right so like for for example if I understand like the the substation building downtown I know that happened. Like if this district existed that would have needed to come through this
commission to which station the the building down there changed dramatically. We had no say in that. But in this situation, something like that would come to this committee, which again it may not be us, but it' be this
committee commission would have authority to have to approve that appropriate pick up because it's 6. Okay. Right. Well, we're scheduled till 6:30. Yeah. I think should do I
don't I suggest that we all do our homework for next meeting um to actually send a digital copy of this out everybody including you if you like. But we found it and then when we get ready to do it if we do it you could be
sponsoring it. Yeah. I um am I am much more you know I'm grateful that I'm here in this room hearing you folks talk about it because I will admit that my fear with some of this stuff was very much along the lines of what you were describing. So I am grateful that
I'm here to kind of see your faces and know who you are and you'll intentionally behind your action. So, I um I made no promises, but I definitely agreed everything to sign. And u actually speaking of next month, um I am not there on the first uh Thursday of
June. So, you'll be if I'm here. I have to look on account. Okay. It's gonna run wild with it. I guess We could still have a meeting if there's a quorum. There is the next officer.
Yeah, that's you. Thank you. No, I'm not saying it won't be. Yeah, we have to experience said yes. Check the county. Yeah.
Okay. Well, uh, Tim, you can you can leave. We can talk for I'm not going to talk behind your back. No, we're not going to be okay. Just wait. What's the minutes? What's the sentiment of the meeting? Do we want to just adjourn and do our
homework more? That's all we can do. Well, that was the last thing I need to handle, wasn't it? That's all we can do. I need to read that. Yeah, real briefly. I think I'm not that I'm moving quickly on the demolition,
but I think like getting this and the demolition delay ordinances through in the same year may be a lot to do. It's funny you mentioned that because they actually explicit here about demolition delays and how a
historical district is not their only recourse for preserving buildings. We could have a specific preservation ordinance and a specific preservation zone. There's options. I am by the way on ANO this year and I'm the person who is gonna look at the demolition delay after it shows up. So that's
we're trying to make it a little clearer if there's some muddy parts to it. So yeah. Yeah. And make it more in line with other delays from other studies. The only thing they don't really know about is what I write in the paper. Sure. Yeah, I haven't done any research on I haven't honestly just like some
frustrating issues especially with timeline stuff and that was coming and really I actually so far I've done Boston's orders at the end of the day several of them looking through them to find out what language we can include to be
stronger. I think business days instead of just days that's why Right. Right. So really quick tweaks would be great. Exactly. But we also the thing is is that it doesn't designate for infants with the W Russell Dam. It doesn't designate a structure versus a building.
So the W Russell dam great. Okay. But can somebody take TNT to the site? Sure. It's not protected. The dam is what's important. It's not the site. So making that distinction is important if you want to preserve everything.
What did you mean by TNT? If something happened to blow it up. Oh. build. [Music] Or is there like a movement here? I rent a demolition. Well, you let's let's say you something there. Let's say you want to like make
the you want to make that meat street thing and you want we need to we need to blow a little bit of the rock out of here. Yeah. how you know there's no there's no protections for the site because it's not it's a structure yeah it's just a lot of ambiguity in it
and like what we're supposed to be doing how exactly it works what we have authority twist and it's weak compared to others around languages personally I don't think it would be too big a list to do both to do both I mean maybe one will I mean I like
it but I don't changes changes. I think it's gonna Yeah, it's a um it's a busy time. Yeah, it's a busy time. Yeah, it is. I just I know that there's from when I worked in Milwaukee, there was always a historical preservation community. If
too much change happens all at once, there can be we can become targets of becoming like you guys are trying to stop everything. And so I I tend to be incremental change rather than wor I like this idea but I think for the
public potentially to to handle it could potentially we don't want to there to be a reaction right it all down because it's too much on my own. Okay. I'll enter a motion to adjurnn. So
move seconded. All those in favor. There you go, Doug. Anthony fives. [Music]