Cro cell tower at the public works which was withdrawn after procedural concerns and res resident opposition. And recently again on August 1st the burough issued bids for a 180 foot temporary cell tower at the public works which was
withdrawn only last week due to permit delays. The ordinance now seeks to open burough lands to telecom leases. This reflects a troubling pattern. Step-by-step erosion of protections, repeated attempts to introduce a macro cell tower at block 25, and
prioritization of industry interests over residents. In closing, the ordinance conflicts with the master plan, violates state law, falls short under federal communications act, and undermines our historic environmental resources and community
character. I urge you as commissioners to reject it in its current form or at a minimum to revise it. Exclude borrow borrow of education, green acres, public trust and deed protected lands from macro cell tower sighting or leasing
agreements. Require proof of both a service gap and least intrusive sighting. Add categorical protection for the Kooper River, open spaces, parks, and historic districts. mandate review and mitigation of property value impact.
Reliable sell service is important and can be achieved but not at the cost of Hadenfield identity laws and public trust. Commissioners, please uphold our master plan, protect our open spaces, historic character for future generations. Thank you.
Thank you. Uh, anyone else uh on agenda items not amendment of chapter 158? We'll move to Zoom. Well, yes, but we're not there yet. Uh, moving to Zoom. Any comments on
agenda items not amendment amendments to ordinance 158? Please raise your hand uh and you'll be unmuted or asked to unmute. And I'm going to do a sound check uh again. So if you could and I see who do
I see uh that could give me the thumbs up. Naen, could you give me a thumb? Thank you. Oh Sha, go ahead. I think she was giving a thumbs up. Oh, just giving a thumbs up. All right. Thank you. All right. So, now we will
move back in public uh into into the room. Uh the lect turn is yours on comments on anything else. And remember name and street if you're a Hadenfield resident, name and town if you are not. I'm going to go now so I before I get
any more nervous. Ah, you see this is okay. My name is Ann McCracken and I live in the Muse in Hadenfield. Okay. And um I just want to make a quick comment about the ordinance to chapter
158 peace and good order. Um just from what I've read, it seems like it's a quick fix to a very complex problem that we haven't adequately studied. Um, according to the Journal of American Medical Association in 2024,
twothirds of people who are mentally ill, I mean, two people thirds of people who are homeless are also mentally ill. So, if you're going to jail people because they won't go to a shelter resulting from mental illness, you're essentially jailing people for being
mentally ill. I think we need to really study this program problem. what is the true extent of it in Hadenfield and then come up with compassionate solutions. Thank you. Thank you. Hello.
Uh okay. Uh my name is Danielle Pno. I live on Uklid Avenue. To the mic. My name is Danielle Pno. I live on Uklid Avenue. My name is Danielle Paterno. I live on Uklid Avenue.
I am here to oppose the amendments of 158 as well. Um, as I sure a lot of people are here to oppose those amendments, criminalizing homelessness in the United States was considered unconstitutional until one year ago when the Supreme
Court passed its decision in Grants Pass B. Johnson. Now, cities across the country are starting to criminalize homelessness in response to a genuine problem. But that problem is that people cannot afford
their homes and homelessness is on the rise. This is true. I met with Mayor Sadell. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Ver. I met with Mayor Sadell on Sunday to discuss this and I really appreciate him taking the time
explaining the nuances of the amendments to me and the problems that are currently facing the town. You explained to me that there's about 11 individuals that we may be regularly dealing with that are homeless in this town and that
we also have a police force that has very limited resources. We are a small town and I think criminalizing sleeping overnight in Hadenfield is only adding more of a burden on our
public safety officers and does not at all solve or address the problem. Criminalizing homeless is just forcing them to walk all night to go to other towns and it's really just
a waste of our police resources. We already have sections uh subsections of ordinance 158 that address a lot of the problems that we all agree are we don't want happening
in our town. Public urination, public defecation, um trespassing, uh subsection 5 addresses noise riots and disturbances. All of these are also punishable under the general provisions that include a
fine up to $2,000 and imprisonment in the county jail, which if these amendments go forward will also be the punishments for simply sleeping on a park bench overnight. Obviously, homeless people cannot afford a $2,000 fine and imprisonment in the
county jail does not help them at all. I understand that some people would want to frame the amendments to these ordinance as simply providing resources to the homeless population, offering them um uh beds in shelters if they're
available. And if those beds are not available, then they are not subject to the criminal fines. I understand that as well. But people do turn down these resources because shelters can be unsafe. They do have the right to turn that down and we should not criminalize
them making that choice. One of the homeless people in the Grants Pass v. Johnson case that went before the Supreme Court who unfortunately passed away um passed away with thousands of dollars in fines
that she obviously could not pay to her name. This is just going to exacerbate the problems that homeless people face. And that's why I don't think we should criminalize them. Thank you. Favors. Could you pull the green thing
down closer to like on the surface instead of at the top? And then if you want to take the gooseseneck and put it put your handheld into it, whichever one you want to do. But we just need the mic closer to you. You need this mic close. It doesn't matter which one you want to use, but not everyone's going to want to
hold it. Mic and a hear mic, right? No, they're both. It's all the same. I'll do my best. How's this? Yeah, that's actually good. Even with or without. Go ahead. Great. Herb Hess, 308 Red West Redmond Avenue. Um, I know I'm supposed to
address the commissioners, but I want No, you're supposed to address the commissioners, folks. To see the shirt. Friend of mine gave it to me. Hadenfield changes everything. I'm an so I'm a son of the bureau. Jack Tarditi likes to say that. I grew up here. I was born and raised here. Uh
this is a photo of Harry McCabe. So I'm going to make this personal. Um Harry was a person who lived in Ottabon for about 11 years. He was supported by Housing and Urban Development. And in the midst of COVID, uh the
landlord sold the property and he was homeless. So I took him in. He was living in my office in the basement for about a year and a half uh during COVID and after the pandemic. And I got to admit, I'm not a social worker. I thought he had the capacity to
figure out housing for himself. I mean, heck, HUD was giving him a a voucher for housing. They were going to give him a voucher for utilities, but he had mental illness. He was sexually abused as a child by
both the church and the Boy Scouts of America. He had hearing loss. And when I finally tried to turn my frustration into action, I would take him to the Camden County Housing Office. It's a brick building
with a glass door with a QR code and the glass door is locked. So, good luck if you have mental processing problems trying to figure out what the heck a QR code is. We banged on the door after somebody said, "Oh, yeah, just bang on the door. Somebody will
come and and answer." And they did. And he was able to get his voucher restored, which was of no use practically because any type of apartment or housing he applied for required a 650 credit score
or better. His credit was in shambles. So he had to basically live in my office or live on the streets and finally we made it to the Camden County Board of Social Services in Cherry Hill Woodrest.
And I dropped him off and he came back to the car and said it's that guy. He doesn't speak English. I can't understand what he's saying. There's no hope. I said let me go in with you. So we went in and he had trouble hearing. He had trouble focusing. But he wasn't a bad guy. I mean, he he worked for me for
years doing odd jobs. He was a Christian. He believed in the Bible. He had strong faith. He was generous. He'd help other people out who had no resources when he had nothing for himself. And uh we finally got him housing in
Camden. It was kind of crappy where where it was located, but it was at least three meals and a a safe place to stay. And he was there for a few months, but he checked out. And then he moved on to another veterans housing
facility I think in Winslow. And then um my friend Chip would keep me in contact with him. Sometimes he'd be at the Baptist church on Sundays, but more recently he had not been there the last Sunday. When I opened up the retrospect, I read about a a homeless
man 69 years old who was found lifeless outside of Cafe Lyft. And there was no next of kin, which I knew to be false. I had to call his daughter and break the news that her father had passed on, the father she'd
try to form a relationship with. So Harry was not a criminal in any sense of the word. He was tough to get along with sometimes. He had real needs. And he told me about people he knew who went to jail and came out dead or
injured. Jail is not the place for somebody who has mental illness or other needs. So I tried to do my part. Hadenfield changes everything. Is it going to
change it for the better or the worse? We have 11 churches in town. Some of them have full-blown commercial kitchens. They got plenty of rooms. Can we set up a task force to find out another solution? Whether it involves
church charity or some type of housing that's available or some type of treatment. I haven't even read the ordinance. Frankly, my daughter just told me about it a few minutes before we got here. Incarceration is not the solution.
And I mourn my friend Harry and glad that he's not around to even face the prospect of being put in jail. It would kill him. Thank you. Thanks. And Herb, sorry for your loss.
You're welcome. Hello, commissioners. Can you hear me? Yes, please. Uh, my name is Eva Hess. I live on Redmond Avenue. Um, I'm not super informed on this subject, but I know my fellow community here is, and I just found out
about this meeting about an hour ago. So, I just want to say um we are all so privileged to live in this town and to not share that with other people is just honestly inhumane. Uh we need to be kind
to others and set examples for other towns, South Jersey to help people that are in need because you can only imagine if this was the situation you were in, you would want the same kind of help. incarcerating homeless people or people
experiencing homelessness doesn't help anyone. Doesn't help people that are experiencing homelessness. And um it just it's it's heartbreaking. I can physically feel my heart beating in my chest because I can only hope that
you want to help serve our community no matter what where they stand and what their privilege is. So, I hope that you can um look to find another solution. Whether that be using open spaces like how my dad offered his office to one of
the homeless people in our community or a church, we there can be a different solution if we can put our minds together and um work to to be kind and I feel that's very important. So, thank you.
Thanks, Eric. And uh before the next person uh speaks, if I can just ask everyone to uh part uh that the people standing in front of the doorways. Uh we want to keep these as a a safe exit. We haven't started yet.
Yeah. Andy, if you can move over and Andre, if you can move over just a little bit, make sure both of those doorways are open. Yeah. Yes. All right. Please. My name is Kathy McGee and I reside at
265 Windsor Avenue. I've been a Hadenfield resident for about 14 years now. I feel like it's my town. I'm invested in it and I've had very good experiences with most people that I've met. I'm here just to say that I'm not
really supporting the changes. Um, in my mind, the peace and good order amendment really the purpose is to ensure the enforcement of the project to have public places
um while being able to hold the constitutional and human rights of people um that reside there or that happen to be within. So um that's just my thought about what it's supposed to be about. Maybe we should think about purpose first. I have some questions.
Um, I wondered where you got statistics for your um, changes in the ordinance. Um, I couldn't find too much specific, but I did find out that there are 681 unhoused persons in Camden County.
So, there's not really that much and we should be counting our blessings right now. Um, that we're not in this situation like some other cities and towns. Um, and I'm afraid with some of the cuts that are being made, we're going to see more people that are homeless. So, um, it would be best to
really think this through. So, I would like you to slow down a bit. Um, okay. From her, you can do it at the end. I'm just I don't want her to lose time. Did you have a citizens or an advisor group involved in this at all?
Well, we're we'll address questions at the very end. Okay. Well, um the other thing, you know, I'm in science, so I believe uh in research, and I wondered if you did any research or contacted any experts to
help you with it. I mean, we live in a wonderful area where we have experts in almost any field and you can tap them anytime that you want to. They're very helpful, very um available. So, I think that would be a
good thing. And then I wondered if when you change ordinances if it happens this rapidly because I just read about people talking about homelessness at the last meeting. I didn't hear anything about it before and I just wondered like if
there's some reason that we're kind of being very quick with the way it is. Um I would really like to see us slow down, think about the people. They could be a vet. They could be a vet with
post-traumatic stress disorder. They could be a teenage child that's really needing some support. They could be somebody that honestly lost their home like the pastor was saying, it happens. Um, I've seen
mothers and children living in cars because they lost their home. It's difficult. Let's try to put ourselves in their situations before you make any rash judgments. And above all, we can't criminalize this because they're not
totally responsible for it. So, we can't hold them totally responsible. Now, it's it's an expedient way to handle it, but it's probably the wrong way to handle it. So, please slow down the process, have an advisory committee, get experts
involved, and please make Henfield proud. Good evening. I'm Karen McGrath Dunn. I live on Lynen Avenue. I'm the owner of an affordable housing management company. We serve low-income elderly and
families in towns adjacent to this as well as New Jersey, all of the state of New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I'm here to voice my concerns with the amendment language. I'm going to keep it brief and focus on three problems.
First, unclear language. This ordinance fails to define what's actually illegal. What does protractedly lounge mean? Is that 10 minutes or two hours? What time is dusk and what time is dawn? We
might define it differently. The personal property obstruction language is also very vague. It invites selective enforcement. A businessman with a briefcase might be overlooked. Somebody with a backpack or luggage might be cited based on appearance
alone. This language criminalizes loud, boisterous behavior and conduct tending to breach public peace. I have a teenager. These are terms that could easily apply to my teenager after a movie or with friends lounging on a bench. Who's to
decide? This overly vague language forces our police officers to guess what's allowed, guaranteeing inconsistent application. I think police, taxpayers, and visitors to our community deserve better. Second problem creates problems instead
of solving them. As others have mentioned, I have an issue with the shelter exception. I think it's meaningless. It requires police to advise about shelters, not ensure they're safe or secure, available, or appropriate. It fails to account for safety concerns
or health concerns like bed bugs, huge issue in shelters, violence, pet separation, big reason people don't want to go to shelters or illness. Do people deserve jail time because they won't go somewhere unsafe? Under this ordinance, someone could face
90 days in jail and 2,000 in fines. I don't know if I read that right. That is for having nowhere safe to sleep. As someone who manages affordable housing with years long wait lists, I see every day how low-income people
struggle to avoid homelessness in this state and others. This ordinance essentially criminalizes poverty. It adds criminal records and fines for simply existing in our public spaces. I do not know why we would want to add more hardship to those
who cannot afford housing. My last point is that it creates legal and financial risks. This enables selective and subjective enforcement. A college student on a bench is hanging out, but someone who looks poor is loitering.
A person's right to exist in public should not depend on having the right look or proof of housing. This subjectivity also exposes us as taxpayers to costly lawsuits. It's something I believe we should all avoid. In summary, I urge you to reject this
ordinance amendment language and create a working group to develop practical solutions that protect individual liberties. I would be happy to help. Thank you very much. Thank you, Karen. Good evening, commissioners. My name is
Courtney Warner. I live on Princeton Road in Hadenfield. I'm here with the South Jersey DSA and also alongside Cooper River Indivisible and South Jersey Progressive Democrats. And we are all urging you to please reject Ordinance 202511,
which is the one we are talking about. Everyone before me said it perfectly. This is not going to help these people. It's literally just going to punish people who have nothing with debt and arrest records, which will just make it harder for them to get housing or jobs
later. And this ordinance is especially disturbing in Hadenfield, which is one of the wealthiest towns, not just in the state, but in the whole country. We have multi-million dollar mansions everywhere around us and a place with so much
privilege and abundance. Our response to homelessness should not be punishment. It won't make this town safer and it won't make our kids safer. We need to set an example for our kids and future generations by treating people with
compassion, not cruelty. If this town truly wants peace and good order, the answer should be a thorough study and researchbased housing first approach. We should be using this town's enormous wealth and privileges to help these
people get permanent housing and supportive services. Housing is the foundation of stability, dignity, and safety for everyone. And I urge the commissioners to reject this ordinance and pursue a real solutions um based model rooted in comp compassion
and housing first. And I also want to thank um Commissioner Cole for bringing this to our attention. And I would also like to know who was the one that brought this forward to begin with. One more thing. Also just want to say if your biggest
problem is um litter then we should be focusing on bigger problems. Thank you. Hi, my name is Lisa. I am actually here from Mount Laurel, New Jersey. I am actually here on behalf of the Green Party of New Jersey as their candidate
for Lieutenant Governor. Our governor candidate is Lily Benvitas. I am here to discuss obviously the homelessness issue and I want to dis others have stated very well so I'm not going to add on to those. I will add on to the fact that
this will also cause another problem which we've already had to try to address which is our overpopuls in prisons and in jails which we have yet to come up with a solution especially since a lot of our jails and
prisons are privatized in the state in the United States as well as in New Jersey themselves. I also want to state that you guys are public servants and are here to serve us. So, this is an egregious overstep of your power and is
very corrupted in its ways. I also want to state, I know you guys are going to address questions at the end, but what are you going to do about it? Are you going to stop corporations such as Black um such as Vanguard or Black Rockck
buying up housing and causing housing prices to skyrocket? Are you going to call allow people to continue to buy houses to create the next Airbnb or Verbbo and rent them out as summer
homes and vacation homes and not actually live there but use it as a way to drive income? Or are you going to allow people to raise the minimum wage in this township to be able to allow cost of living? Anybody in this room,
including you guys, I'm sure know somebody who is on the verge or could be on the verge of becoming homeless. Would you want any of your friends, families, including sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, to be in jail or
prison just because they couldn't afford to survive? Hi, my name is Karen Tany and I'm from Mount Ephraim, but I was married to the Catholic Church down the street. And the people who came before me have spoke eloquently about the demands of mercy
and compassion and humanity. And there's nothing I can add to that to make it better. So, I'm going to call on your self-interest. The line of this ordinance that really concerns me is um engage in any
disorderly conduct or behavior tending to breach the public peace. Every summer you reenact a breaching of the public peace. America was founded on the right for us to
breach the public preach. And this is a very dangerous ordinance because you might be trying to make your beautiful downtown, which is beautiful. We're here all the time, a little nicer, but there are people in the federal government that are pushing these policies so that
they can use them as reasons to send the National Guard into DC, into Chicago, into Baltimore, into Philadelphia. This is a gateway ordinance that is
allowing federal overreach disguised as a public service and we need to call it out. Thank you very much. I can't believe I have to follow
Um, hey. No, I love it. Um, thank you, commissioners. My name Carrie Allen. I live on Kings Highway East. I'm your burrow neighbor. Um, I've lived in Hatfield for a very long time. Raised my children here. I am a psychologist. I work with children. I
work with families. I work with public policy. And we were founded on Quaker principles, Hadenfield. Um, and these principles emphasize compassion, equality, and care for the vulnerable. Um, some folks, you
came out your I'm I'm bringing out Elizabeth Had now because um Okay. better. Little louder. Yeah. Okay. So, I'm gonna bring up Elizabeth Haden because that's who we were founded
on. When we have an ordinance that's fundamentally flawed for many, many reasons, when it criminalizes poverty rather than addressing the root causes, when we make it illegal to sleep in public spaces or engage in any activities that are just for survival.
Okay, th this is not fun. This is not, you know, the teenagers riding their bikes up and down, you know, Kings Highway making a a fuss. This is for survival. When we make this illegal, we're not reducing homelessness. We're not addressing the root cause.
We're moving it out of sight while making it even more difficult for people to get the services to achieve some stability. Other folks have talked about the financial costs. Okay, how to feel is all about financial costs. Right? I
mean, we're all about saving money. Um, we're about spending money. We're about saving money, too. So, the financial costs here are substantial. So, for each arrest for a homelessness related offenses, it requires police resources, court time, potential jail stays. Do you
think they're going to be able to get out on bail? Right? Where are we going to put these folks? Okay. Um, and that far exceeds the cost of what effective evidence-based interventions could do to address this problem.
We're talking about mental health issues. We're talking about people just down on their luck for whatever reason. We're talking about vets. We're we're talking about families. We're talking about people. Is this how we want to use our resources? We already have a very
strong police force. Is this what we want to have them doing? deciding who to arrest on Kings Highway. So, it also undermines safety, right? So, when people who are arrested for homelessness, what happens? You get a
criminal record. When you get a criminal record, what does it make it harder to do? It makes it harder to get a job. So, you can have the money and you can have a home and you can have services. You have a criminal record. It's going to be harder to access the services you need.
it's going to be harder to find a good place to be. It it it just it is complete opposite of what we're trying to do. So, we can figure this out, right? We're smart people,
right? I mean, other people have done it. It's it's not rocket scientists. I mean, there's communities that find a way to connect people with the services. They address the real cause of homelessness, the addiction, the mental illness, the job loss. They do see
actual results. We can keep our public spaces safe and clean without making poverty a crime. Oh, but for the grace of God go I. My mother was fortunate enough to be one of the earliest folks that got to take
advantage of low-inccome had housing in Hadenfield. Now granted, luckily she had me if it all fell apart, but what if she didn't? My mom would have been on the streets, but she was able to access services because I was able to get her there. She didn't know what she was
doing, right? She wanted to be able to access that. So, as our founder Elizabeth Haden, she the Quaker principle is there is that God in everyone. So we must ask ourselves, oh now it's coming out big,
right? So we must ask ourselves as Elizabeth Haden, does criminalizing our neighbors reflect that foundation of belief? So let's direct our resources towards evidence-based solutions that reflect both fiscal responsibility and
community values. We're better than this, and we can do better than this. Thank you. Good evening everyone. Um, I'm Nate Robertson. I'm a resident of Bington. Nate, yes. I'm a resident of Bington. I grew up there and I reside there
currently, but I've been going to the Hadenfield United Methodist Church my entire life. Um, I grew up in poverty because my dad's business went under when I was a little kid. And a little over 10 years ago, my parents, after years of fighting it, finally lost their
house. And I suddenly found myself living in a pickup truck. Um, luckily I had my church to support me and I had just started working somewhere. I'm not going to dox myself with that, but um, they rallied around
me, too. But it was still an extremely depressing and dark time in my life even with that support. And I know that without that support I wouldn't have survived it. Um
I would get harassed by the police just for sleeping in my vehicle. I would get followed from work to my church where I used to go to the current which was our uh Sunday night service every week. Even though this particular officer wasn't a
officer for any of the towns from my work to my church and in between. Um I wouldn't be here today if the people around me didn't treat me like a person at a time where I no longer felt like a
person. Um I've thanks to them I've been able to build a career for myself. If I'm currently at a management level position, I've built a life for myself. And in my experience, regardless of why
someone is in the situation of being homeless, because there's still people at the end of the day, my experience was a lot of it were people that lost their homes due to the Great Recession or losing their job or their business going under. Teens that were kicked out of their homes by their parents or
guardians for being LGBTQ. Most of these people were working. And once I ended up on the police's radar, sleep was an issue to the point where I was falling asleep standing at work. Learned that you can keep falling asleep because your knees buckle and then you
wake back up again. And my store director and the department heads ended up putting me in a hotel for a couple weeks to recharge my batteries. Um, these people are already living a nightmare every
day. They don't want to be living on your streets. They don't want to be living on these park benches. Every day is a nightmare that they can't wake up from, whether they're getting sleep or not. Please don't criminalize these people. Please don't kick them while they're
already down because it really is a matter of life and death. For every person out there that was homeless like me that managed to survive, there's dozens more that didn't. Whether due to inaction or due
to arguably evil action that makes their lives even more hellish and dangerous than they already are. So, I I beg of you, please, please don't do this. Thank you.
Hey, before you go, I just have a question from South. Yeah. Yes. So after Nate, uh, we actually are going to go online because there's a professional that was asked to to
address the audience. Uh, and we'll give him the floor just No, no, no. After you. After you, Nate. Okay. I mean, after you, Neil. Uh, Father Neil Ramen. Uh, I live on Kings Highway. I have a a question that was passed to me by another pastor in town, which I'm going to read, and then
I've got my statement. Uh, the question is, given the number, Start your clock until you finish reading that. Okay. All right. Given the number of people planning to speak, I've been asked to ask this. Since there's a new 60-unit shelter that's in the process of being built in Blackwood, as well as a new multiple agency center
being built in Camden, would it be unreasonable to postpone considering the severity of Hadenfield's response until a greater until greater research and more humanitarian response can be created with new resources? That's the question that I've got my statement as well. All right. Thanks. Okay. Go ahead. you have your father.
So I'm the priest at Grace Church and I reside in the business districts with my wife and todd our toddler. Uh given our location between King's Highway and the Patco Station, I've gotten to know quite a number of the folks who are experiencing homelessness in and around Hadenfield and that come through quite
often. They're people like you and me who have found themselves in incredibly difficult circumstances as the prior speaker just illustrated. As both a citizen of this community and a priest of the church, I'm really concerned and distressed by this
legislation. I'll just say that though we don't all share the same religious convictions, my opinions about this course of action are rooted firmly in my faith. Holy scripture is clear about our responsibility to those members of our community who are struggling and
suffering. We are to help them. Full stop. It allows for differing opinions on how we help them, but we are to help them. The moral teaching of the church over
2,000 years points to that same responsibility. That moral teaching is rooted in that scripture and the understanding that each of us bears the image and likeness of God. One of the ways that my own Episcopal Church articulates that moral teaching
is a commitment and responsibility to respect the dignity of every human being. The ordinance as presented does not measure up either to the test of scripture or the consistent moral teaching of the church. Nor does it
represent the best practices according to the agencies that advocate for ending homelessness. We have data that show that this sort of legislation does not actually help those who are experiencing homelessness. What it really does is just make it so
that we don't see them. I ask that the commissioners consider tableabling this legislation so that we can work together so that the commissioners, the bureau can work with the churches and religious organizations, social service agencies, and the county which has a number of
initiatives already in the works around ending homelessness. and the whole community in addition to those groups to find a path forward that addresses the concerns that led to the introduction of this piece of legislation. And there are real concerns
that should be addressed. But we need to address them in a way, and I think by working together we can, that does so in a way that helps lift these neighbors of ours who are in a hard way up and lift them out of poverty and into
stability rather than hiding the problem or just passing it off to another burrow. I had a really great conversation with Mayor Sidell earlier today and we talked about exactly these sorts of partnerships. I think there is an appetite for them. I think there is room
for them. But time is going to be required to discuss, to study, and then to act. This legislation gives us one tool in our toolbox. And if you only have one tool in your toolbox, that's what you're
going to use over and over and over again. And one of my worries is that we do if we do this, we won't have the opportunity to even consider going to the hardware store and getting more tools because we've got the one tool and it
seems to be working. We might say I stand ready this evening to partner with the burough government in this work. I am certain that I am not alone in that. Today we have the opportunity to step out. We have the opportunity to lead to
set an example for other municipalities. I've been in Hadenfield about a year and a half. I know for certain that we have the capacity to do this work. My question tonight is, do we have the will? I'm going online first. I know, but I no
time this is this is the next person and I've already afforded the time to speak. So, no, we're going there and then we'll come back to you. Why did this come up? Isn't there an first? Fine.
Thank you, Father Neil. Uh next, I'm inviting Jeff Wild uh to speak. So, you can unmute him. Uh he's a professional at the state with uh legal attorney private practice. Okay. He represents a nonprofit entity.
Yeah. He represents a nonprofit entity for for homeless services. Uh and I've asked him to uh be next. So Jeff uh yes uh this is uh Jeff Wild. I am not at all sure I should uh have any right
to go next. But since you invited me, I will speak quickly and let others uh other advocates join in. I'm a litigation partner at New Jerseyy's largest law firm, Loenstein Sandler. I'm also a trustee of the New Jersey
Coalition to End Homelessness, which advocates for the Rights of Unhoused Men and Women of New Jersey. My dad was also homeless during the Great Depression. Uh he ended up successful and put me through law school. That's part of the reason why why uh I do this at least.
And I can tell you I have absolutely nothing useful to add to what other advocates are already saying very correctly that the right answer to ending homelessness is to help people find housing. And there's absolutely no need for Hadenfield uh to enact an
ordinance that could be used to fine or put unhoused people in jail. And so the board should table this proposed ordinance, which I submit is illegal under New Jersey law, which is different from the US Supreme Court decision that
was discussed previously, and instead work with the nonprofits to solve what is absolutely a huge problem, the tragedy of any unhoused men and women sleeping outdoors in public parks or streets. It's an abomination. and we
should all agree that that's outrageous and we need to stop it. The only thing that I can maybe add to this discussion is a legal perspective and it's one I can share because I have decades of experience working with mun
municipalities throughout the state, Lakewood, Patterson, Tom's River, Clifton, many others to solve the problem. And I've been at other first meetings like this and you're sort of at a fork in the road. uh uh commissioners,
you can solve the problem either the hard illegal way or the legal easy way. Uh my experience with the hard way is um in part from the town of Lakewood, not county, and they tried to force people
out of town through legal means. Uh there are 120 men and women living in a community. Um, Lakewood litigated for many, many years with probo bono attorneys like me. And all that
municipality ended up with were court losses, huge legal bills, ultimately paying for housing, and causing irreparable harm to the town's reputation. U the easy legal way is what everyone
here is saying. Uh for example in Patterson after the first meeting it withdrew its uh ordinance um never got beyond the first reading and we work with that municipality to
solve the problem the right way. uh in virtually every situation I've been involved in over the decades statewide, my clients, unhoused senior citizens, vets, disabled people, people who just can't make enough to make rent on minimum wage. They're not outside
because they want to. It's because they can't make rent. They can't get into a decent shelter. Uh, I hope that the board will decide to join the vast majority of municipalities, not to take on legal battles, but to abandon efforts to
punish unhoused people and get them a place to sleep indoors instead. I'm very optimistic that this uh board of commissioners will. Uh, I just had a very good first call today with Hadenfield solicitor, Mr. Siciliano. I
commend him uh for saying that the board is willing to talk to the experts, is willing to try to cooperate and solve the problem legally uh and not as a legal matter but through compassion, common sense problem solving. And we've
done it over and over again. We we can do it and it will work in Hadenfield if you'll just work with the New Jersey Coalition 10 homelessness, the other experts uh through a government private task force and actually doing a little
homework before any rush to pass a new law which will not help anything. I'm going to stop there because there's so many other people. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Jeff. Now we're going to come back into uh the
room for comment period. Uh yeah, Julie, are you still here? No, excuse me. We are trying to understand your opinions. That's why we're going around
here. It's very difficult when there are outbursts during someone else's comments. It's almost kind of like when you're at the movie and there's someone talking. When you're really trying to pay attention, we're really trying to pay attention and it doesn't help. I'm Julie Vic. I live on Center Street
and have lived there for 40 years. Um, I have a comment and a question. When I first heard about this ordinance, the first thing I thought was, "There's so much cruelty in our country right now. does our little town have to
add to it? And then my next thought was a question. Why now? Why are you writing this? Who wrote it? Did someone tell you to? Is there somebody in the presidential administration who's sitting on small
towns and saying, "So why did you write this now? There seem to be enough of other things going on in Hadenfield to deal with. So, I am curious as to why why you wrote this and why you wrote it now. Okay. Thank you. Oh, you'll answer it later. Well, you know, we'll answer it. Sure.
Just it would take forever, right? So, we'll answer it at the end. Thank you. Uh, thank you for giving us the opportunity to uh voice our opinions. My name is Sam and I live on Upland Way. Uh, this is my third draft. My dad
thought my first two were a little too excoriating. Jails are filled with the accused, not the guilty. I refuse to let you criminalize someone's state of being when we all could be in that position, too.
Do you think you're closer to a house on Lane of Acres than you are to the streets? Imagine you get in a car accident. It's really bad. You get hooked on pills. What happens when the when the meds get taken away? You go to the streets. Where's your money go? Maybe you make a
bad investment. You lose everything. It doesn't take much more than a bad day. We should be uplifting our community. That includes the brave people who find ways to survive in sweltering heat when we're comfortable with roofs
over our heads and AC. This ordinance is evil. And if it passes, it would be a slap in the face, a kick to the nuts, a beating of a dead horse. You want to legalize the cops scaring off unhoused people?
People who have already lost so much or had enough taken from them. And we can spend our money on new turf fields, which aren't really that great for the environment, but maybe it's better than the landfill we used to play soccer on. We can spend our money to send two cops to give one person a ticket.
Why do we not help our fellow humans? Where is the humanity? Where is the heart? And when are we going to stop putting band-aids on issues that we're all complicit in? Thank you. Dr. Hi, I'm Dr. Susan Hoke. I've lived in
Hadenfield for 31 years. I'm here in a couple capacities. One is I'd like to talk about this from a medical person point of view. In 1970, when I was a medical student, I spent a rotation at Chicago State mental institution on a ward. Anyone else in the room spent a
month on a medical on a uh mental institution ward? I they there were people like this then. We didn't have too much PTSD from Vietnam yet in 1970, but we had people on drugs, we had alcoholics, whatever. They got deinstitutionalized. Remember Reagan
started that in California. It came east. We have these are people who have medical needs. We have people with PTSD. We have uh LGBTQ kids who've been thrown out of their house, who've been raped, maybe raped in shelters. We have people
with alcohol and various drug addictions. And we're imprisoning people with illness. That's like going into the Acme and rounding up every diabetic who buys Tasty Cakes. I mean, it makes no sense. Now, I had heard that Collingswood is now arresting people. Is
that true? That's my question for you. Are they arresting the homeless? Because if other towns start doing this, we're just It's like, you know, if I put my trash in my neighbor's trash can and he puts it in the trash can next to them and he puts it in the trash can, the trash is still there. Okay? We can't
solve this problem by putting people in jail or moving it elsewhere. Now, I do have a suggestion for you. Uh, two other things. One is we tend to other these people. And I would like to remind everyone here that in the last 15 years
at least 10 of our high school graduates have gotten involved with drugs and killed themselves. So this is not an other problem. The mentally ill. It is not an alcohol problem. That is not our problem. It is our problem as much as
people in Camden's problems or people in Blackwood's problems or anywhere else. And I know we're hidy tidy hotty toy. Um, but we're we're all in this together. Finally, I do have a suggestion for the name of this resolution. I would like you to call it
a sundown resolution because you're doing this from dusk to dawn. You all know what sundown towns were? Sundown towns where black people couldn't be there between dusk and dawn. So, if you pass this, I want it to be
named the sundown resolution. No mentally ill people, no PTSD, no alcoholics, no drug addicts in Hadenfield after dusk. Thank you. Thanks, Susan.
Forgot my reading glasses. I'm going to blow this up. Hold on. Need a bear. Good. There you go. Oh, I think I'm good, though. No, I'm good. All right. Good evening, commissioners. My name is
Liz Roco. I live on Oakidge Drive here in Hadenfield. I own a business at Six Kings Highway East. I'm deeply involved in the community through my volunteer work. my real estate business and simply as a parent raising children here. My
office sits just steps from the Paco station. So every day I have a front row seat to who is coming in and out of the town. I want to start by saying this. I believe we should be helping people who are homeless. Many are vulnerable,
struggling with addiction or mental illness and they deserve real care. But the reality is they should not be living on the streets. What's happening now in Hadenfield goes far beyond someone quietly sitting on a bench. Often homeless people come off the Paco with
their belongings because they know they can stay here. Some people are harmless, but others are not. We've seen homeless people openly using drugs, sitting upright, passed out, using alleys and parking lots as bathrooms, panhandling customers and
businesses, checking cars for unlocked doors, and having mental outbursts in front of the storefronts. Just recently, a homeless man was found deceased on Kings Highway in front of a business. These are real incidents. I, along with other business owners, have
photos, videos, and police reports to prove it. I'll share with you some few examples I had personally. My business was broken into overnight by a homeless man who smashed our front door looking for money. Ironically, we're real estate office, so we don't carry money, but he
was able to find some cash in a drawer and took off. Another day, a man was I'm sorry. Another day, my car was broken into in broad daylight while I was walking around the corner to pick up my children at Central Elementary School. Thank God
we went back into the office first before before I went back to my car. Otherwise, we would have been face to face with the man. A violent domestic fight between a homeless couple broke out in front of my office with a man threatening to kill
the woman. Another man defecated in my parking lot and then proceeded to jump the fence that leads directly to the middle school during school hours. This is not exaggerated. It's daily reality for businesses and residents around Kings Highway. Some business owners now
keep their doors locked all day. Residents who live above the shops don't feel safe walking their dogs at night. This is not how Hadenfield should be. We should not be left alone either to deal with this by ourselves. Hadenfield is a walkable town. Our children walk these
streets every day. Their safety and ours needs to come first. And that's why this ordinance ordinance matters. It doesn't criminalize homeless people. It requires pe the police to first advise individuals about emergency shelters and even offer transportation.
That's compassion. But it also gives officers the authority to say when necessary, you cannot sleep here, move along. That's accountability. To those who may not support this ordinance, I ask you to consider the lived reality of those of us downtown. We are not asking
for cruelty. We're asking for balance, compassion for homeless people in need and safety for our families, our children, and businesses. We all want long-term solutions. Housing treatment, mental health services. But until those exist, this ordinance is a necessary
step to protect our town, our families, and the community we've worked so hard to build. I urge you to pass this. Thank you. Hello. Hey there. Uh my name is Alex Byer. I'm from Bington. Alex. Yeah. Okay. Uh I do serve on council
there, but for this evening I'm uh here as a member of the communities at large in the surrounding towns just as a member of the community like everyone else here. Um in opposition of the uh amendment changes to chapter 158. Um
just I like many people you know in my extended family have dealt with you know and experienced homelessness you know with members of our own family. Um and I think this should serve as sort of a warning bell as a municipal precedent that could happen to other surrounding
towns. We don't have this language I know in our ordinances in Bington at this time. I personally do not want to see them there. Um, uh, are some housing advocates in New Jersey have, uh, consistently opposed similar ordinances. Uh, I know that, uh,
like Jeff said, and I can talk a little bit about Patterson, but not much. But, uh, things like this criminalize a condition, not a crime generally. Um, creating barriers to housing and employment as was has been mentioned by other speakers tonight, undermining those outreach efforts. We talk about
the uh uh you know police can be involved but a lot of times um it undermines by creating fear of law enforcement. This these measures uh create trust uh for homeless homeless people and unhoused individuals to
interact with shelters and other professionals that can actually support and help and uh set help set them on a more help and a path for their life. Um it is often not saving money to the taxpayers and while that is not the most important thing here um it is often very
costly and inefficient to go through all this uh and often just moves to simply displace the problem uh and while ignoring all those root causes um very quickly um
uh it's it's crucial that and this is quoting from the ACL New Jersey after um after Patterson did rescend their amendments. Uh it's crucial that New Jersey towns uh support unhoused communities by prioritizing Karen rehabilitation, not criminalization. Um
the ordinance fails the often to provide tangible solutions or support that would instead cause damage to these people's lives. Um imposing criminal penalties on unhoused people sleeping in public spaces in inhumane, ineffective, and immoral. Vulnerable people in need
should be met with stable and safe housing and shelter options, not with jail cell time. You worry about the cycle of when someone who can't afford to pay fines gets stuck in a negative feedback loop of jail time, fees, and
bail that they can't meet. And that's not something we need to further along as a great problem in this country. Um, so we just hope that people who are unhoused deserve respect and not punishment. Thank you. Thanks, Alex.
Hello, commissioners. Uh, my name is Jenna Cole Jakami. I Jenna. Okay. I live in Somerville. That's in Somerset County. I work in Middle Sex County. Um, pardon me. I didn't have a lot of
time to prepare for today. Um, I drove an hour and a half from North Jersey after work today. And where do I work? I'm a director at a nonprofit that helps homeless people.
I started a year ago and it was very grateful to my boss. I've spent on and off uh the majority of my life caring about homeless people. When I was a kid, I was a Girl Scout. We
did a lot for the homeless. Uh we made them hygiene kits. When I went to college, John's Hopkins University, I studied different classes about how homelessness comes about. I did a practicum. I worked at different
homeless shelters. I instituted an entire computer literacy program so that we could actually educate the homeless and help them build new skills so they could get a better job. In Middle Sex County, we're doing
everything we possibly can to not only get people off the streets, get them into our coordinated entry and assessment program, we're trying to refer them to the right services. So, we're referring them to um
mental health, um substance abuse, if they don't have any income at all, we refer them to the board of social services. And um we also have different types of case management in house. So,
I am um part of a committee, part of a initiative right now. We're trying to prevent homelessness. So, we're developing different ways that we can actually work with the community to try and address the structural and economic
issues going on in our community. And so, as you can see, if I drove all the way down here to address you today, it's because I'm trying to get you to understand that criminalizing people for
uh basically suffering through something that may or may not be their own fault. It's just not fair. And as uh someone actually pointed out earlier, we're starting to wonder, is this part of the fascist agenda? Did someone tell
you to do this? We should be caring about our neighbors and that's what they are. It doesn't matter if they don't have a home. It doesn't matter if they urinated on your beonas, okay? It doesn't matter. They
are your neighbors. This is a community and we should be doing everything we possibly can to direct people to resources. And if those resources don't exist, well, don't you think you should create
them? Don't you think you should go on Google, try and figure out where's the local uh homeless agency? Who who can I ask for guidance? Right? So, like I said, I didn't come here uh
extremely prepared, but um I did want to point out that I do agree that I don't believe that this is actually um legally sound. I I highlighted quite a few things in here that seem to be a
violation of just the First Amendment alone. Um the freedom of speech. I curse like a sailor sometimes. Maybe I shouldn't admit that in public. So, if you hear me cursing, does that mean I'm using indecent language? Should I be
locked up? Like someone else said, if I'm sitting on a park bench too long, if I have a headache and I take a nap in the park, I mean, where does the line end? Where does it begin? At what point
is someone who's in this audience now being subject to this this ordinance? So, no. Um I I don't agree with it. I oppose it even though I don't live here. And I have to ask you, will you be
building affordable housing? Because um it's my understanding you don't have a lot of affordable housing here. Are you going to be building emergency shelters? Where we are, we have access sites and we actually have other
townships dropping off people at our access sites. Okay. We help everyone. We help everyone. It doesn't matter where you came from. We're going to help you. Thank you. Anthony, I'm just going to say it's nine
o'clock. Just just saying the time. Understood. Uh Anthony Hollingworth, um Roberts Avenue. Uh regarding the proposed amendment to the bureau ordinances, I have a simple message. Criminalization of homelessness does not work. It does nothing to address the
root cause of the problem. It exacerbates the problem in every possible way for those who already are in distress. and it involves them in the criminal justice system, making it even harder for them to escape their circumstances. This is opposed by hundreds of homelessness policy and advocacy groups, including veterans
homelessness organizations. It's coercive and cruel, where compassion and kindness are required. It diverts our police's attention from time time and resources from attacking real criminality like drug taking and violence, which we I believe we already
have laws against. It is at best a flawed and simplistic response to a complex problem. At worst, it's a callous overreaction wrapped in the language of caring and support. The exception that's included is more of a procedural step before criminal action
than a meaningful intervention. I suspect that also it's designed to appear tough, but this is the toughness of a bully who knows nothing about compassion, much like the pro most prominent supporters of this kind of policy on the national stage. It will be an embarrassment for it to be seen for
an affluent town like ours to pull up the drawbridge to neighbors and fellow citizens and unnecessarily bring us negative publicity. We as a town should do better. We should be more innovative in addressing the problems by working in partnership with the county, neighboring towns, businesses, community groups,
churches, and others to provide support services for people in our town who need help. Tickets, cuffs, and cruelty won't change anything, but will certainly make us look like cruel, uncaring bullies who've got no real idea how to solve problems. I can't object strongly enough
to these amendments. Thank you, Anthony. One minute. One moment, please. Uh, we have to keep the door clear. Uh, and people are had to open the other side of the door just to be able to get out. So, no, that's not enough. if if you could
kind of swing around. There are some seats open now. People have been leaving, so I'm inviting you to Yeah, thank you. Uh, okay. Please. Hi, my name is Matthew. I live in Ottabon, pretty close to here to
Hadenfield. All right, Matthew. All right, thank you very much. Uh I wanted to lead with some some points um about the the uh amendment. We we you have in there a
stature I guess. Excuse me for not knowing the correct terminology uh about defecation and urination on an on a quick search on Google Maps. If I look up public restrooms, the closest public restroom is not here in Hadenfield, but is 2 miles away in
Cherry Hill, New Jersey. That is a 50-minute walk from here. As someone who does not drive, someone who frequently walks. I walked three and a half hours to church. Public restrooms are very difficult to find. There have been several times I have walked and almost had to urinate myself because leaving I
went and going somewhere, there's been nowhere to go. I know Cherry Hill well enough that I know there's a few places with portaotties that are nasty and uncleaned. On top of that, you have a an up to $2,000 fine for people who are going to
be who are going to be protractally sitting. What does that mean? Is that a little bit over a 90 degree angle? Are we going to have cops walking around with protractors? Is that what we're doing here? If if a fi if a fine is the penalty for
a crime, the crime is being poor. The crime is being poor. I want you to understand that. Now, I myself do not subscribe to the idea of divinity, but I do agree with the teach many of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. So, I would like to read a
quick passage here from the Bible as spoken by Jesus of Nazareth. There was a certain rich oop apologies. There was a certain rich man who clothed himself in purple and fine linen and who feasted luxuriously every day. At his
gate lay a certain poor poor man named Lazarus who was covered in soores. Lazarus longed to eat the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Instead, dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried by angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also
died and was buried. While being tormented in the place of the dead, he looked up and saw Abraham at a distance with Lazarus at his side. He shouted, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me. Send Lazarus to dip the dip dip the tip of his finger in the water and cool my
tongue because I'm suffering in this flame." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime, you received good things whereas Lazarus received terrible things. Now Lazarus is being confronted and you are in great pain." My hope in reading that passage
that is that is if the messages of compassion do not reach you that the message of eternal damnation might. Thank you. Thank you Matthew. Uh this next person who's about to speak is Richard Yunaki and he's uh he's here
from as a personal request from me and personal invitation. He's the president of Bridges Outreach and worked closely with Summit New Jersey that inspired this ordinance that we have here today. So, I want you to hear from him directly what that experience was like for Summit
New Jersey and what they're working through now. So, please go. I'm sorry, what was his name? Thank you. It's Richard Uniak. Yes, Richard Yanaki. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Cole. Um, and thank you commissioners for letting me speak this evening. Uh we serve predominantly Essex
and Union counties. We are 247 on the ground in Newark. We also work very closely with the city of summit which is a was a pretty similar situation. We helped create and participate actively in a mayor's task force to solve homelessness that includes the
prevention of imminent homelessness. We started using data developing a by-name list. We had as many as 35 people who are experiencing chronic unsheltered homelessness in the city. We're down to about one. And that work is very hard
and it takes a lot of courage, especially political courage to decide that you're going to come together as a community and solve homelessness. I noticed that there were in the 23 24 school year, there were 31 students who qualified for free and reduced price lunch in Hadenfield. Right? These are
families. You've heard a lot of important things tonight. These are families living on the edge. What would you have them do if someone should face housing insecurity or homelessness? I think it's important to to highlight the illegality that you're likely facing,
which has been uh indicated by by Jeff Wild. Um I think it's also important to talk about the costs, right? And this is an important conversation that we had with Summit. In New Jersey, it costs approximately $75,000 a year to incarcerate a human, whereas it costs on
average $12,50 in order to rapidly house a twoerson household for a year. If you talk about institutionalization, the cost to operate Greystone was in excess of a hundred $800 a day. Right? heading down
the path of institutionalization and incarceration is not just wrong. It's not just a really bad look. I mean, ask the folks in Summit. The commissioners had to walk through there, their council people, they had to walk through a gauntlet of media because there was a press conference protesting the activity
leading into a council meeting, right? It's not just all of those things. It's also not cost-effective, right? out the other end of an incarceration period or a stint in a psychological institution, you're still homeless. You haven't solved anything. You've just kicked the
can down the road. So, I' I'd be happy to talk further about the strategies that involve bringing all stakeholders together to determine who's out there, what they're facing, really meeting people where they are, and figuring out how to create systems so that
experiences of homelessness can be rare, brief, and non-recurring. That's what we owe to our neighbors because homelessness is a failure of society. Thank you very much. Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Richard and Richard. Sorry,
Julie. Yeah, Richard drove a long way to come here after a long day at work, so I deeply appreciate this. Hi, I'm Julie Bettingfield. I live at 101 Aenddale Avenue in Hadenfield. I also own um Inkwood Books, which is at 106 Kings Highway East in Hadenfield. Um
I sent you Thank you. I sent you guys an email earlier today and I didn't know if I could make it, but I feel compelled to speak publicly. We've received it. Thank you. Um, I've owned Inkwood for 10 years. I'm downtown all day, every day, seven days a week. We're open late at
night. We have lots of events that go well past dusk into the evening. I have never, in the 10 years I've been there, had any issues with any homeless people in town. I have I counted up today over 103 people in our store every single day. I've never heard from any of those
103 people in our store every single day. Have never had a comment or a concern about homeless people in our store or homeless people in our town ever. That's a lot of people. It just baffles me that I've never heard of an issue. If there's a perceived issue, I
feel like I'd heard about it by now. The only time I've had any incidents with anyone in town are with the kids in town. the kids who harass an adult with disabilities so much that he comes in our store every day because we're his safe space. We shouldn't have to have a safe space for this guy who's being
harassed by the kids in town. That's what we do for this guy. We need to show them compassion. We had kids in June who opened our door at 9:00 at night and yelled, "I hate gay people." while we were having an open mic pride event in June. These are the kids in our town.
These are the kids who are learning how to treat people from us. This is our opportunity to show them how we're going to treat the people who are the hardest. They're living. They don't have homes. We go home. Our ma my mattress probably costs more than a a rent would be for
one of these people. We just need to help people. Our kids are learning from us. They're looking at us and their behavior downtown is telling me that they're not learning a very good message. This is our opportunity to teach them and we need to do better for our kids and for our town. I didn't put
this in my email to you earlier, but as I was sitting here thinking about it, this ordinance is bad for business. I'm just going to say 75% of my customers don't live in Hadenfield. They come to our town because they think it's a great place to come visit. It's beautiful. But
we have a reputation for being elitist nimbies. And I have to go out. If this ordinance pass, I'm going to be embarrassed to have a business in town. I'm gonna be embarrassed to live here. I just urge you to reject this ordinance. It's terrible. It's bad for business. It's bad for our town. It's bad for our
kids. Thank you. Good evening. My name is Ken Lee. I am a resident of Cherry Hill. Although I am a resident of Cherry Hill, I do frequent and support businesses throughout South Jersey, especially Hadenfield. I actually would like to demand answers of
sound logic and reasoning from Hadenfield's town council regarding this. As an openly gay man, I believe I have the right to fight against this disgusting ordinance. Did you know that a portion of the LGBTQIA plus community is homeless in this country? According
to the Trevor Project, about one in four youth that identify as part of the LGBTQIA plus community are homeless or experience some type of housing instability. Additional to that, New Jersey is known as one of the states that have a significantly higher cost of
living than other states. A great example of that is our property taxes. While Camden County has some resources like emergency shelters, the federal government had decided to just halt funding and refuse to give it to states. So, this brings up the case of well, if
there aren't any emergency shelters that can hold someone for the night, does this homeless person then go to jail and is then charged with a crime? Who thought this bill was humane or who wrote this ordinance that makes any
logical sense? Are you more concerned about your property values going down because a homeless person somehow exists? Are you making the brazen assumption that homeless people are automatically violent and cause crime? Is it because the person that's the
president now is arresting homeless people and is now claiming it's justified? In what world do we currently live where it should be a crime that someone doesn't have a place to live, especially if they've done nothing else wrong? And especially since the cost of
living is so exorbitant that people cannot afford to live. If we stepped out of our comfort zones in other places in cities such as Camden and I assure you in certain parts you definitely won't get mugged or robbed.
You'll see a national epidemic of homelessness and hunger. And I urge you people to not pass this. Thank you. Thanks, Ken. Good evening. Uh, my name is Mike Hagen.
I live on West Summit Avenue. Um, you'll have to excuse me. I'm a little nervous. I was uh not intending to speak tonight. Um, certainly not a public speaker either. Um, I I decided to speak tonight. Uh, I I
don't come with statistics. I'd rather just talk about my experiences. I appreciate I I read about this meeting on social media and I'm grateful to have heard about it and for the opportunity to speak. Um, I moved here in 2020. Um,
my wife and I moved from Philadelphia. We have three young daughters, uh, four, two, and one. Um, my wife's actually traveling. I got a last minute babysitter, so I'm appreciative to her as well. Um, and I want to preface what I want to say by
saying that, you know, I'm trying to teach my kids, uh, respect for others, acceptance for others, and, um, especially, you know, people that are different than us. Um, kind of hard to do that to a one and two-year-old, but I'm really trying to hone it down with a
four-year-old. And, um, my, uh, my kids are terrible sleepers. Uh, I have a coffee in hand right now. I'll probably be getting a coffee very early tomorrow morning. Um, oftentimes my girls come with me um for early, you
know, early trips to one of the coffee shops. And um, since I've moved here, I I can say I've seen an uptick in homelessness uh, especially during the early we hours of the morning. And um, you know, and I also want to say I've
had great experiences with some of those people. you know, I've had very nice conversations in Starbucks with my kids, by my side, with people. Um, but this summer alone, I've I've noticed a change. Um, I've had some somewhat
alarming experiences with individuals uh speaking directly at me or at my kids that have freaked my kids out. Um, I've had to divert my kids attention from from public defecation. Uh, I didn't
know how to explain. I I didn't know what was going on in the fountain, maybe getting washed up, what it was, but I had to kind of divert their attention from that. Uh, just about a week ago, we saw a man smoking a cigarette on a school bench very early in the morning,
chose to, uh, you know, walk the other way. And again, you know, I'm teaching my kids, people are different and we're accepting and tolerant and respectful of everyone. Um, but you know, my kids are really young. I'm not really ready to have some of those conversations just
yet. Um, you know, uh, the one thing I heard tonight that that struck me as interesting was how um, you know, passing uh, this amendment is going to uh, strain our our police, you know, our
police force, which is I guess already strained. I don't know too much about that, but what I can say is if this if this amendment is overturned, what what will that say? What kind of precedent will that set? Um will that invite and
again I know not every homeless person in Hadenfield is committing the offenses that I've seen with my own eyes. But will it invite more people into town? If it invites more people into town, what kind of offenses are going to be uh taking up our police forces uh time?
And um you know, lastly, I just want to say uh I think I mentioned this. My wife and I moved here from Philly. Uh we moved here for the schools, the safety, and uh we don't live in a we don't live on Lane of Acres. Uh we don't live in a million-dollar mansion. Um but I I I was
drawn to this town. I didn't want to move to South Jersey. I'm from Delaware County. Uh I fell in love with Hadenfield when I got here. Um and I've never looked back. And I love the walkability of this town. And I love the fact that I can just throw my kids in the stroller and and and walk around
town. Um, but the question I I would have for the audience, I I you know, and others who who oppose this is like, you know, should I have to be worried about like should I wait until 8:00 or 9:00 to walk my kids into town or like should I
have to worry about that? Should my kids, young kids, be be worried or scared or not want to go with daddy to the coffee shop because of some of the experiences that they've had? Um, you know, I'll leave it with that. I really appreciate everybody else speaking tonight. I've certainly gained some
insight and perspective. I'm definitely open to other solutions. I just wanted to get up here and speak about my experience. Thanks. All right. Thanks, Mike. Good evening. My name is Colleen Connell. I live in Cherry Hill. My husband John and I lived in Hadenfield
for 33 years where we raised our four children and we're very active in the community. Uh we would be as well if we were still living here. Um but alas, you've lost us. Um and you can thank me in advance for being brief. I just wanted to say reference has already been made to Hadenfield having roots in
Quaker founding. It also was a place on the Underground Railroad. It has a heart. Shall we not forget that? Thank you and thank you for listening. Thanks, Colleen. My name is Meg Meyer. I live on Yes. I live on Hopkins Lane. Um I moved to
Hadenfield in 2022. I moved here to live closer to family and to raise my kids. I've worked in healthcare for 15 years and I have taken care of many unhoused people and people struggling with addiction and mental health issues. These people need compassion. They need resources and we live in a very
privileged community and we need to come up with ways to help them. Criminalizing it isn't going to fix the problem. It's going to make it worse. We're going to hit these people with fines and jail time and they're not going to be able to find housing and jobs. The minimum wage
in New Jersey adds up to $32,000 a year, which is like so low compared to what many of us probably make in here. And so if someone has a minimum wage job, they're going to have trouble getting housing. And if they're here and
we have the ability, we should be looking for resources and using the experts that live within this community to find ways to help these people and support them. We have plenty of churches. We have plenty of healthare workers and I'm sure social workers who
could donate their time and help us figure this out, but criminalizing it is not the answer. Thank you. Thanks, Meg. Hi. Um, my name is Dear Gavl. I live in Blackwood. I'm sorry. Say that again. My name is Dearree Gavl. Deerra. All right. Thank you.
And I live in Blackwood and I'm also a member of Hadenfield Friends. um when I needed to find a place to worship in this area, that's that's where I wound up because I found an accepting, a loving uh community that I like to think
represents Hadenfield. Um I'm also a veteran. Um thank you. And I've been homeless. In 2002, I was an engineer. I was working for a company that um we we built equipment that calibrated
the sensors that deploy the airbags in your cars. And I was traveling around the world um setting up equipment doing that. By the end of 2002, I was homeless. I'd lost my job. I'd lost my family. And it can happen to
anyone. In my case, it was due to PTSD. and I spent the next four years in and out of mental hospitals. Um, it can literally happen to anybody. When addressing the problem of homelessness, I'd like you to think of
what was going on in World War II when we had bombers and aircraft coming back and they'd be all shot up. And what was the solution? The solution was we're going to reinforce those parts of those aircraft that got shot. The problem was
that those were the planes that made it back. The ones that didn't make it back were shot somewhere else. They had engines destroyed, not wings. And when you're looking at a problem like homelessness,
getting these people off the streets, that's the easy solution. That's looking at the bullet holes in the wings. It's not looking at the ones that are destroying the engines and taking the aircraft out of the sky. It requires a lot more creative thinking than just let's move them away, let's get rid of
them. So I would urge you to try and think more creatively and look for the solution to the problem as opposed to the solution to the symptoms. Thank you. Thanks, dear. Hi, I'm Lauri Mclaid. I live on Center Street in Hadenfield. Um, and I'm just
so proud of the turnout tonight. I think it's been really overwhelming and really moving to hear everybody's experiences. I don't think I have much to add except I have a lot of questions and some of the questions um have been asked before, but I just want to underline them. Some I don't know if some of these questions
have been asked already. Um, number one, I'd love to get specific data from public safety, specifically how many unhoused people there are in Hadenfield that this law would affect. Um, and also how frequently this is happening, how many occurrences there are. Um, I've
heard 11 people. I've heard a a handful of people. This sounds like a problem that maybe we could tackle in other ways. Um, so, uh, that's my first question. Uh, my next question is, um, what informed the solution, uh, to make
this amendment? Did all three commissioners consult other towns and other experts in homelessness? Who were they? Um, and what did they tell you? So, I'd love to know that. Um, you know, I'm not an expert on this topic myself. This been the in the reading that I've done and what I've heard tonight is is
that um, you know, these types of laws don't work. So, um, I just love to know how you came to this conclusion that you wanted to do this as the solution. Um, also I wanted to know what would happen
if someone refuses to go to emergency shelter. um what would law enforcement do? Um would they be arrested? Would they be fined? Um and there are many reasons that people listened tonight on why someone would deny emergency shelter. Um so it's totally valid. Um
and what happens if the shelters are full and where would the law enforcement bring them? Um also I just want to um say my disappointment that this was introduced during a holiday week when many people are on vacation. I think the turnout tonight was overwhelming. I think many advocacy groups got the word
out. Whoa, sorry. Um, and I think this is wonderful, but I think many residents uh are away this week in our way in August, and I'm just disappointed on on that timing. Um, another point that was brought up tonight, uh, Summit New Jersey passed an ordinance very similar
to this, and the ACLU has already filed a lawsuit saying, um, it's unconstitutional. Uh, this is making national news in Summit, New Jersey. Is this what we want for our town right now? Um, not only that, but you know, we can't afford another lawsuit. So, why would we want to bring that upon
ourselves? We're already in the hole so much. Um, it just seems like a huge liability. Um, my hope is that this ordinance does not go through. I guess my last question is what happens tonight? Um, so this is the first reading. Does it need two people to vote it in to make it to uh the second
reading or could this die at the table tonight? I'd love to know um what can happen tonight because I'd love to see this die tonight. Um, and I think that the overwhelming, you know, turnout tonight kind of backs that up that maybe we should come together for a different solution. I
think, um, we all want there are so many experts in this and so many people who have been through this that I think that we have the opportunity to learn from them and do this, right? um and make meaningful change in Hadenfield and and really set our legacy for uh you know what what we wanted to
be and and this town is just such an amazing beautiful town and I think that's why the three of you are up there representing our town and why we're all here um you know because we have a big stake in in the future of this town for us and for our children. Um and I also just want to call from everybody who's
sitting in the audience to come up here and also have your voice uh be heard. It's it's hard for me to public speak. Um, but I think it's so important for for them to hear. There's going to be a vote tonight. Um, you know, there's been a lot of people speaking their mind tonight, but I think everyone should be
heard. Thank you. Thank you, Lauren. Sean Oconor, Beachwood Avenue. Okay. Uh, I don't have a lot to add to the conversation. I think I've been um moved by a lot a lot of the words that people have said and um I just wanted to
lend my voice among those who are opposing the ordinance. Um I think when I first read about it uh as someone who uh maybe lost faith long ago, but I still feel like I try to live my life with the Judeo-Christian values that I
were instilled in me when I was young. Um, I was struck by what felt like a lack of compassion in this ordinance. Um, I think, uh, I have a lot of admiration for people who run for public office, for the commissioners who do so
much hard work and I believe could only do so with the intention of improving this town. So, I believe everybody is trying to do what's best for this town. But what strikes me also as someone who works in clinical research is that I couldn't find strong evidence for the
effectiveness of the types of measures that were being proposed. I think I that's what I think I would like to see along the lines of what the last speaker said is what justifies these methods. Who which towns have adopted these methods? What are the the positive gains
that have been had in other towns that would justify something that feels so uh discordant with those morales that I I describe um uh being raised with? And I think I would just appeal to the commissioners to to provide that evidence so that if if something like
this were to go forward, we'd have to have good uh good understanding, good confidence that this will accomplish the goals that it's set out to do. because as people have said, it just feels like this will be counterproductive. So, I'd
really like to to see that evidence. And if that can't be put forward, I I would also appeal um to delay this as others have said uh work with the other organizations that have been uh voicing their willingness to do that hard work.
I would just hate for this town. I came here just uh less than two years ago for the a lot of the same reasons everybody comes here. just it's a beautiful town with so much to offer. Uh and I'd hate to see the town uh attempt an an easy uh
and ineffective solution to a really hard problem. And I hope I think I I' heard so much passion in this room. And I think it's inspiring to me and it makes me question, you know, what do I do to to address this problem? And I think it it makes me feel like if there's a better solution, something I
can feel more confident in, I'd be happy to do my part to do more. Um, so I think uh though I came here with some some anger and some frustration, I I leave feeling a little inspired or at least hopeful that we we're headed towards a solution that will work and that we can
all feel like we've done our parts to help the the people who are who most need it. Thank you. Thanks, Sean. Hi, my name is Kimberly McGrath. I'm a lifelong resident. I live on uh Concord in Hannenfield. Now, uh generations of
my family members have lived here and helped build this town into what it is today. Before I say what I'm going to say, I want to preface it by saying I'm a fierce advocate of homeless and abused dogs. I work extensively. I just moved back from Los Angeles to my hometown
with uh dogs on Skid Row. I have fostered, I have adopted, I give thousands of dollars yearly. I go to court cases, I write lawmakers. I am active and an advocate for people dogs suffering in need. There is another side to this story that has not been
addressed tonight and it's serious. It's not an inconvenience. It's not something that is just unsightly. It's a serious concern. And I'm going to start with what's going on in Hadenfield the last few months and then I'm going to tell you what I just came from and what it turned into. So Hadenfield does offer the unhoused
help first. They offer them help. What? Talk to us. Oh, talk. Okay. So they do offer help and the the the reality is the the help is often refused and by law these people can refuse the help. That is their right. So you could build the greatest
shelters or the greatest treatment facilities um but it doesn't mean people want to or will accept that help. So now my question comes down to what is going to be done when the help is refused? How long can the people stay? One day, one
week, indefinitely. Those concrete things need to be addressed. So I'm going to go through a few concrete examples from the last few weeks. Last week, a man vomited in King's Court in front of kids go trying to frequent um a local business, the ice cream parlor. He proceeded to stumble along with a
toothless woman. Did that hurt anybody? No, not that time. Was it human excrement? No, it wasn't. It was vomit. But children should not be forced to be subjected to that. A woman lived in King's Court for nearly a month with three overflowing shopping carts, sprawled with bags on community benches all day. She frequently blocked the
ability to use community bike racks with large carts. She took up considerable common space at a business entryway. She rejected help daily. It's all on record. Her choice prevailed over residents and business owners rights. Some residents of King's Court have recently felt
hostages in their own apartment. They were unable to safely walk their dogs at night because a grown man, stranger to the community, often appearing to be nodding out on drugs, slept in the pavilion for weeks, leaving trash every morning for the community to clean up. An unhoused man was found dead on the
sidewalk in front of a business just a week ago. That is traumatic for adults to witness, let alone children. I recently personally encountered with my young child an unhoused, unhinged woman screaming profanities of an elderly elderly man outside the little hen. It
did not escalate that time, but it easily could have, and it was terrifying for my child to encounter. These are not harmless situations. They're serious and they're ongoing safety and sanitation issues that need to be addressed immediately. and handled accordingly. There's a few others. The man that's
sleeping in the post office who the post office workers come in and find, you know, urine all over the floor. That's not fair. That's a health hazard. There are many other examples I can give you, like the woman who was brushing her teeth and washing her hair in the children's fountain a week or so ago.
That's a sanitation problem. It's a problem for her because there's bacteria in that pond. There's rocks and moss and it it it could spread um diseases. So, I just want to say this. There's an ordinance put forward saying we can't allow sleeping downtown. People
can accept the help and be relocated to licensed facilities or shelters capable and equipped to properly help them. They can leave voluntarily or they can be escorted away by police. We I am not trying to criminalize homelessness. So,
what we can't do is choose to live. They cannot choose by choice reject all the help offered to them. choose to live in public spaces, litter, use them as bathrooms, remain intoxicated and unstable around children. It's dangerous. So, residents have rights also, and those rights are being
trampled on in the name of compassion for individuals who reject help. I don't know how much time I have I have left, but I want to come on. So, I didn't even get to what I just left in Los Angeles, and it was it was radical. I lived in a residential neighborhood where one block, one tent who we used to
give clothes and food to turned into an encampment and I was walking over human excrement and I was, you know, seeing needles and people shooting up outside. So here's my question. On night one when we leave here tonight, if somebody unhoused in needs and I say give everything to the veterans, everything they they belong. They deserve
everything for free. I want to say that too. But when someone unhoused in our town refuses help, what's your plan to protect the residents and the business owners? How long is this ordinance going to say they can stay? One day, one week indefinitely. Let's let's define that.
And are those um commenting? Well, I won't even say that. I won't even get into offering your own property cuz it's neither here nor there. Oh, although I do for homeless and abused animals. So, that's my time. So, I just I I really feel like those things need to be addressed. They're not they're not inconveniences. They're real serious
concerns. We have young children. They have to be dealt with until somebody like just god forbid somebody like one of these kids get hurt. That woman could have snapped in an instant on us. It was terrifying. So that's what I want to say. Thank you. Thank you, Kimberly. Hello. Hi. My Hi. Nice seeing you. So,
my name is Andrew Bodi. Last name is Bodi. Me and my family, we do have two businesses downtown. 141 Kings Highway and 139. So yes, me and my family, we have two businesses downtown and my parents are resident in this town as well. We've been running our business for eight years. So I agree with that. We need to
connect individuals with housing, health and social services before enforcement where possible. I agree and I empathize with that. Uh I cannot give any further comment. This is a complex topic how it should be handled this group of people. But I'll talk as a witness what is
happening every day in downtown. Me and my family were there seven days a week. We never closed 365 days. Been there for the last eight years and it has changed. It's been disturbing. We have homeless people. We had a lot of incidents where our staff had to call the police and they do have our phone calls. We had
couples fighting in front of our restaurant like uh mentally we had to call the police on. We have people passing out on our restroom, homeless people again. We had a Starbucks people leaving for a while at 9:00 p.m. And my
question it's I think even when you like when you leaving somewhere you should be identifi identified who you are first of all like when you apply even to a house we should see like where you come from what's your name last name if you have any active warrant as well because you never know. So that has been is been
this done is being unsafe and I'm asking just for accountability removing obstruction improving cleanliness and ensuring safety. The key concerns that we have is and just not me. I talked to almost every business owner and they all are concerned even though they're not
here. So this is serious and I'm a witness and I have my staff witness and we can bring a lot of witnesses here if you want to hear from other people. Public sidewalk obstruction. Sleepers on the public sidewalk block block access to outdoor dining storefront at night day and night. Safety for children and
families after hours. Pedestian traffic raises safe raises pedest pedestrian traffic raises safety risks for kids and residents. Potential dangerous behavior. Unpredictable or harmful actions around bicycle and pedestrians near the
sidewalk. Cleanliness and image litter and debris accumulate around obstruction harming downtown cleanness and familyfriendly image. Nudity in public spaces exposure is inappropriate from family town and makes visitors
uncomfortable permit compliance. We get outdoor permit that you apply for having our chairs and tables be many times and we cannot put it we cannot operate losing revenue because we don't have space to. So as a business owner, all I ask for is
action. I'm not saying what's the right way or the wrong way. We empathize with everybody. We agree that these people need help. But I'm talking as a witness perspective being every day downtown had field. And the from the last eight years that we've been downtown, this last year has been very very bad and it's been
very concerning. That's all I have to say. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you. Hi, my name is Orm. I live in Stratford. Uh I think ORUM Yeah. Um I think as a country I think we've come to an
understanding that incarceration or detainment is not for the good. It is just punishment and isolation. Uh there's no service. like there's not an opportunity to go into any of that and leave as a better person than when you went in. We're not there yet. We
desperately need to get there. Uh and using that as a solution is a non-starter. Um I feel like there's a large disconnect from people. I'm I'm hearing from a lot of comments like I'm glad they haven't had anywhere close to the experience of being in that position
or being anywhere close. They're very separated and that is fantastic for them. Um but it is not a solution to just isolate people and lock them away and just forget about them as they are just struggling because that could as so many people have said could be be any
one of us. It just takes one event and any of us could just be right there out in the streets. We we really need to be able to focus resources on. It is very telling uh that this is brought forth with no uh there's no
mention of how it will actually be addressed um in the language. It just says they'll go where they go basically um and we'll just remove them from the streets from you. You don't have to think about them anymore. Um it is very telling that especially in this era that
that is just being pushed out. I think people would very much like to have na a name or specific names to who decided in leadership that this is the best way to deal with people who have nothing right now and genuinely deserve all the resources that are available to them
because I know they're available. Uh and if they're not available, they can be made available. Um we definitely deserve to have the names. Um because if you the idea if knowing how to address this or the idea of how to address this is so so
beyond you in this moment uh maybe you're just not fit for the position you're in. That's all. All right. Thanks, Lauren. Uh hi. Uh my name is Sam Gaddy. I live in Ottabon. Um, and I'd like to speak in uh strong
opposition to this proposal. Um, it sounds like from a lot of people who support this proposal that their concerns are uh safety, um, public health, things like that. Um, and on that front, I agree it it is unsafe um,
for people to be living on the streets. I think you'd be hardressed to find somebody that disagrees with that. um you'd be hardressed to find somebody that likes the idea of homelessness um anywhere. Um and people that oppose this um
proposal are not speaking out in favor of homelessness. Um they're looking for an actual solution um to this problem. And it's been clear through um different cities across the US that this is not a
solution to the problem of homelessness. Um there's been a few people that have said, well, you know, the the homelessness the homeless people, they reject um help. They reject shelters. Um
and even if we built the best shelters in the world, they would still reject them. Um to that I would say have we tried building the best shelters in the world? Um are the shelters that um homeless people have access to the best
shelters in the world? Are they even adequate? Are they even safe? Are they even available? Um we have an opportunity to actually build those. we have an ability, we have the
opportunity to see if um these solutions would actually solve homelessness. Um instead of just kicking this can down the road, instead of forcing people out into other towns, instead of
criminalizing homelessness. Thank you. Thanks, Sam. Hi, my name is Jonathan. Um, I'm a resident of Haden Township. Um, and so many other people here have spoken so eloquently about the need for compassion for those um, who are less fortunate
than us. Um, and but I'd like to um echo what one of the uh other speakers here uh noticed, which is that uh one of the things that this ordinance would criminalize is, you know, public
urination and defecation. And like I'm sure everyone in this room, I don't want to see uh public urination and defecation. However, I also have some health issues that occasionally mean that I need to use the bathroom more
frequently. And so whether or not there are public restrooms available is something that I notice very very uh uh acutely. Hadenfield um also my own town, Haden Township, Philadelphia, our whole region
really does not have adequate um public facilities and I am fortunate that I have a home and that I can go back to even though sometimes I need to plan am I going to
go out right now? Will I be able to get back to a restroom uh easily? I can only imagine what it's like for those who don't have a home to go back to, whose only option is I need to find something
uh that may not be like you have to go to the bathroom at 10 at night. That's something that happens if there's no if there's no facilities available where you are you you have to go somewhere. We should make those facilities available.
Um, yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Jonathan. Hi, I'm Arabella. I live on West End A. I wasn't planning on talking tonight, but I was um both disheartened and um I guess heartened to hear everybody and
what they were saying. I felt a little scared because I'm probably among the younger people in this crowd, but I just graduated and I spent four years in North Philadelphia, which if anyone has been to North Philadelphia, is not the most, I guess, crime-free place. And
I've lived among people uh who are of varying different housing situations and talked to people in various housing situations. And just to be clear, I am against this ordinance. This is not the way to deal with something like this. And I know I'm only 22. I don't have the experience that a lot of people in this
room have had with their education and their working. Um, but I think it's important to listen to the people who um are experts in this area and I had an undergrad uh degree in things where I did research and if research is showing
that the way to deal with homelessness is not incarceration, we should probably listen to those people. Um, I also want to say that I was a student at Hadenfield Memorial High School. um only I guess I graduated 5 years ago. Um and I saw a lot of the things that people
are mentioning that homeless people did from high schoolers. Um I've seen public urination. I've seen uh I've seen drug use. I've seen um lots where the mic went. Um I've seen lots of hatred and
lots of um animosity just within my classmates. The difference is their parents had the p had the money to pay for the lawyers to get them out of that so they can still go to Yale and Harvard and they can get scholarships and they can do all the things that they need for
their future. The difference is when you're in a situation and you don't have the backup resources to get yourself out of that situation, you're just going to end up going further and further down. And I asked to the people who say that they are uncomfortable with seeing public urination defecation. I'm not
saying that's good and we definitely need to deal with those things in a way of helping people. But one, if someone is refusing housing, like so many people have said, that must mean the housing is not adequate because would you who in their right mind would rather live on
the streets than live in a shelter? That must mean something's wrong with the shelter. And then uh I think my last point is that I'm uncomfortable with public urination, but what made me more uncomfortable is my friend who died by suicide from drug
addiction. I'm uncomfortable with people who um you know are just laying out on the street and but I'm more uncomfortable by the fact that they don't have anywhere to go. Not just that they're there, but that they don't have anywhere to go to after they get kicked out of here. So I really want to call on
everybody's empathy. I really want to call on everyone to think about their own um people in their life that they love and how like everyone said, it's possible to end up in this situation. We just don't want to think about it. And um I think compassion is the right response to this. I think hope is the
right response to this. And I am really hoping that I can continue to call Hadenfield my home and be proud to say I'm from here. Thanks, Arabella. My name is Rachel Tannon and I live at Beachwood Avenue. Concerns have been raised about
behaviors such as bathing in the fountain, urinating in the fountain, or yelling at people. But none of these issues truly threaten our safety. There are compassionate solutions such as locking the post office at night or issuing and issuing keys to people who
need them or providing a designated place for the unhouse to bathe so that they don't need to use the fountain. I understand that some constituents worry about their children witnessing these behaviors. As a parent of a three and 5-year-old,
what I want my children to see is a town that responds with compassion and creativity and support for all its residents, not punishment and exclusion. I oppose the amendment to chapter 158. Many laws criminalizing homelessness
have existed in cities across the country since the 1990s, giving scholars decades of outcome data. There is no evidence that such laws meaningfully reduce homelessness. What they do is push vulnerable people further into the margins of society.
Such a policy does not reflect the compassion and community values that Hadenfield is known for. Is criminalizing instead of helping the homeless truly the legacy our leadership wants to have? How will you explain choosing exclusion
over compassion when future generations look back on this decision? There are better paths forward, ones that focus on services, housing, and support rather than punishment. Commissioners Sidell and Troy, please
listen to your constituents. Please choose compassion. Thanks, Rachel. Hi. Hi. Is this Is this on? Is the green light on? Hi. Uh, yeah. Hi. I'm Diane Herbert. I live in Ottabon, very close by. Um, I do
come to Hadenfield and I spend my money here. I eat at your restaurants and I shop in your businesses and when I have relatives and friends visiting I bring them to Hadenfield and we spend our money here and if you criminalize
homelessness I may reconsider doing that. I may go to a different town instead and spend my money somewhere else. Um I do understand the um the people who have spoken in favor of this
um amendment. I can understand after living in a small city for a little for um some years in upstate New York. I lived in Ithaca where there was a lot of homelessness and I dealt with some of these issues right outside of my house.
So I can understand um but it's a very complicated problem and criminalizing these people is really not it's it's just a very inhumane way of dealing with it. Um and I will say that um as some
other people have mentioned um it does seem like a fascist way of dealing with it and I am a member of Indivisible. I'm a member of New Jersey 50501, uh, South Jersey for Palestine, as well
as some other organizations, and I can tell you that people are very primed for protesting right now. I'm not sure that, you know, this would be protested, but I would just say be prepared for that because
um there are protests in this every area, in this region every week. There are protests all over right now. We are we are primed for protesting. Um protesters are proficient at spreading
things on social media right now. um good at getting media coverage in newspapers. Um and it's just something to consider because I think that is something that other speakers have alluded to and do are you going to want
that negative press? Um like I don't you know I don't feel like I have the answer for you but it does seem like you have a lot of professionals in the community. you have a lot of people who you can you
can reach out to to access to find other solutions. Um and then I just wanted to mention that um over 50% of people who are homeless have have a history of traumatic brain injury and I also have a
history of traumatic brain injury. Um I'm a veterinarian. Um I was working you know as a um professional doing surgery handling emergency cases and everything and then I get hit on the
head very hard was fully disabled and if I did not have a very supportive family I I would have become homeless. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Um, I was one of the lucky people who had a
family who just swooped in and took care of me and made sure I got access to excellent health care. And um, a lot of people who get severe traumatic brain injuries do not have that. They do they
do not have that family support. And people with traumatic brain injuries who don't have family support are at high risk of being home becoming homeless. Um so there are a lot of underlying
problems. Um and these people sometimes just cannot they're just not capable of organizing their lives and having the focus to take care of themselves. Um, so anyway, I know I know
it is causing problems in your community and I understand that it's it's difficult. So, thank you. No, thank you, Diane. Hello there. Um, my name is Julia. Um, I'm actually um live in Haden Township, but I live on West Bon AB. So, I'm a
hop, skip, and a jump away uh from Hadenfield. Um, everyone pretty much said um how I feel. Um I just wanted to express as a board-certified music therapist and a mental health professional and a proud member of South Jersey DSA. I wanted to um to share my
voice in saying that homelessness is a very complicated issue that doesn't have a simple answer. This is something a lot of us know. Uh the this amendment will only criminalize homelessness and not solve any public safety problems that were expressed tonight. Amendments should be created should be created
based on research and facts, not opinions and cruelty. Thank you. Thank you, Julia. My name is Marta Hall. My husband and I have Pete My husband Pete and I have lived in Hadenfield for 45 years. I live
in the Muse. Um, we raised two children here. They went to the schools here, swore they'd never come back after college, and now they're raising six grandchildren who are attending school, nursery school, and the elementary schools here. And I just want to urge the commissioners to go back and think
about working with the churches and the social organizations and the professionals who spoke tonight and who were represented here tonight to come up with a solution for something uh that is happening that the solution where we can
all be proud of that solves everyone's problems because I think that could be done. Thank you. Thank you, Mart. Hello, my name is Alfred Solder. I live on Mount Vernon Avenue in Hadenfield. Um, I think if I could encapsulate I
mean there's a lot of quotations going on today and I feel compelled to quote as well. This one's from Horus and if I could encapsulate what everyone is trying to say, it would be this mut fabula nur which means change only the
name and the story is you. And I feel like that's who we are. Do we really want to arrest ourselves? There's a little bit of each one of us in a homeless person. I see it. And I wouldn't have seen it before if I didn't go to high school where they made me
reach out to the homeless people. I went to school in North Philadelphia at St. Jose Prep and my son goes there as well. And um I think I would have gone through my whole life really not meeting a homeless person at all. And I'm so glad that I had that opportunity where we met
with people in North Philadelphia. We met with people in Camden. I went to Appalachia for three weeks. Um, if you've ever read the book, The Other America, you know what I'm talking about. It's really a facet of American life. Um, and not just uniquely American, it's a human thing. There's
homelessness. Where there's homes, there's going to be people without homes. My son and I and my wife, we went to Joseph's house in Camden and it was really great experience. I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun helping people out. I had a lot of fun meeting people.
I had a lot of fun seeing my son interact with the homeless as well. My wife loves it so much that she dedicates her Friday mornings and afternoons over at Joseph's house. I'm a teacher. I've been a teacher for 27 years and um this is a huge opportunity for the youth of
Hadenfield to really learn about homelessness. I I know some parents came up or some people came up and said, you know, what am I going to tell my kid if they see a homeless person on the street? Well, you might actually have to answer their question. You might actually have to help them
understand that the system is not perfect. it is broken and there's going to be more homelessness in the near future. So just that to to see the fact that there is homelessness and what can we do about it? If I could sum up what I
learned in four years at the prep and what my son is learning right now, it's two things. If it's boiled down with homelessness and helping other people, it was first you can ignore them. You can arrest them. You can
make sure that they don't have the same opportunities that you were lucky enough to have. Or you can help them. And for the youth here in Hadenfield who might go through their years without ever meeting a homeless person, it would be a great disservice to them. There should
be outreach programs for them just like we had at the prep. this can be done. There's a lot of intellectual capacity here, a lot of people with big hearts in this in this town. I've met them. They're great people and they have solutions. We can really do this. Thank
you. Good evening. Can you hear me? My name is Elena Selena. I actually live in downtown Hadenfield and I actually don't have a strict point of view about the incarcerating homeless and stuff. I'm
actually here to talk about my side of the story and give you my opinion, okay? Not maybe worldwide opinion, but my personal opinion since we're here to hear all our opinions. So my personal side of the story first, I've been here
in the US for almost 25 years and actually I just wanted to remark here when people say it's a privilege. Privilege? What do you mean privilege? It's all hard work. A lot of people are coming here in the US to fulfill the
American dreams. It's hard work. It this money didn't fall on our heads. So a lot of times has nothing to do with privilege. It's hard work. But when it comes to the um homeless issue, I arrived to this country and I didn't have a house. I
didn't know a single person here in this country. No one. Okay. So, I actually know what it feels like from firsthand experience. And I would not have refused the help. Just so you know, if somebody approached me and said, "Ma'am, we have some for you, you know, somewhere to
sleep or something." I don't think I would have refused. But what I would not do, I would not re urinate on the street. I would not defecate on the street for sure. I would have preferred the worst shelter in the world not to urinate in public. So at the end of the
conversation, homeless people just like not homeless people, they are people and it's our own choices what to do with this. We it's it's a personal choice. we can choose what to do and and it's at the end of the of the day it's their own choice too
but I'm telling you my point of view I would not have refused help and when people do refuse help it's their conscious decision that's one that's another side now how is that letting people to sleep on
the street for one night or two nights helping them it's it's helping us feel good about themselves ourselves actually. Oh, we are so good. We're so compassionate. We're letting people sleep on the streets. But is it helping them? Giving them a job would help them
a lot more than just that we feel good about ourselves. One night, okay, two nights, three nights. But then how is that help letting them sleep indefinitely on the strip helping them? One person, two person, three people. How many people eventually would be
allowed to to camp out on the street? And I don't mind, but since we're here and we all care about everybody else, how about caring about the residents of Hadenfield, too? We You are commissioners here, too. So, you are elected to help us all. But I'm actually
talk about safety here. A lot of people here including myself when we don't have encounter the this firsthand we have very different opinion of these encounters and people who did have experience they have different
point of view my house was broken into my car was broken into two times I got three bicycles stolen my children were were chased from school by I don't know whe those homeless men I don't care frankly speaking are they homeless Oh, they have home. I care about safety.
This town was always about safe. Safety, but it's no longer safe. I I'm telling you, I don't feel safe. And really, maybe it's actually a little bit ironic or but all these people who saying compassionate, we can do better. Yes, we
can do better. But are you ready to do it personally? Are you personally ready to say we can do better? Well, maybe these people can sleep in your houses in front front loans and stuff. Let's just show by example. It's very good to be compassionate the expense of other
people and in their safety. Let's just trade it. Yeah, that's very that's that's maybe not popular opinion, but I salute to people who housed people themselves who who said, you know, come on over. Not everybody is capable of
doing that. Not not everybody for sure. And let's not be hypocrites. Oh my gosh, how how kind we are. Yes, we're all kind and most of us religious people and stuff like that. And then we really care about them. But if you're not ready for the Uber to drop the people on your
front yard and know have them camp on your own yard or defecate on your own front porch for your children to be to step into that. Well, let's just not, you know, speak the empty words. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Uh, good evening. Uh, my name is
Marian. I live um in Hadenfield just around the corner. I'm sorry. Can you say your name again? Sorry. Say your name again, please. Marian. Marian. Marian Rafe. Yeah. I live on Lincoln Avenue and um I've been in Hadenfield for
23 years. um our son went through the Hadenfield schools and we've been very fortunate to live here. We've appreciated all the uh privilege that we have here and the safety has been a very
important part as well. Um I'm also a social worker by training and a mental health professional and I am aware that there's a lot of research on homelessness. I've conducted some myself and that there are a lot of factors that
go into um why someone is homeless and that homeless people are not necessarily um harming anybody um other than perhaps themselves. Um so I really think it's important to separate um criminalization from being
unhoused. Um, yes, we need to have a safe community, but I'm not sure that the homeless people are responsible for making us feel unsafe. So, I think we need to look at what the causes are for
safety if that's what the issue is and address those and address the causes of homelessness also and have social services. And it costs probably more to put people in jail than it does to provide them with social services that
would help them to um find housing. So um I just would urge you to consider reconsider and vote against this criminalization of unhoused people. Thank you. Thank you Marian. Um, hello. My name is Megan Marshall. I
live on West Summit and um if we're daughters, I teach Pilates around the corner at Opel Wellness. Um, and uh, I stayed here this long so I I thought I should come up and share some of my
brief thoughts. Um, I paid attention when um, quite a number of parents mentioned that they didn't know how to address this issue with their kids and that they were shielding their kids from seeing the homeless and skirting around the corner or, you know,
ducking into a restaurant. And I think that's a moment where real opportunity is lost. I think we can have honest conversations with our kids. My kids aren't that old. I'd be willing to tell them that um jobs don't pay enough, that houses are too expensive, that there isn't an
adequate safety system for when people get sick. Megan, it's hard to hear you. You're not talking to us. Oh, I'm sorry. Uh did you hear all of that? It was getting hard. Okay, great. um and that also there are people who are
um hoarding money who could be sharing and these are things I think we could talk to our children about when we see the homeless people. Um just go back to my notes real quick here. Um
and I would want to say to them that this creates unfairness, but the good news is there's always something we can do about it. Um, at the very least we can acknowledge the unhoused when we walk past, making eye contact, maybe
nodding, perhaps offering some change from our pockets. Um, but if the unhoused have been unfor enforcably removed, we lose the opportunity for that conversation and we perpetuate a lie that this problem does
not exist. Thank you very much. Thank you. Hi there. My name is Ira Roseman. Um, I live on Lincoln Avenue. Hi, Ira. And, uh, I'm a professor of psychology at Ruters. And I'm going to break uh a
rule of good lecturing and read something into the record which is sometimes done at hearings. Okay. So, this is from the National Alliance to End Homelessness. It makes three points which are brief and I'll read them and then one more paragraph and then I'll
just make a two-s sentence statement. So the three points are about criminalizing homelessness. The heading here is that criminalization prevents communities from solving homelessness. Point one, people, and this is the
homeless people, lose trust in and connections to service providers and other resources, including medical personnel treating physical and/or mental health conditions and street outreach staff working toward housing connections. Point two, health
conditions, the health of the homeless people, worsen and safety risks increase as people move into more marginal and environmentally hazardous locations and the availability of protective factors like community ties decrease. These
dynamics contribute to significantly higher mortality rates for people experiencing unsheltered homelessness compared with people who are sheltered and housed. Point number three, local expenditures rack up as already
underststaffed and overburdened emergency responders are forced to divert scarce time and resources to enforce and respond to these punitive policies. These additional emergency costs do not address underlying housing
and service needs, nor do they consistently reduce crime, address public health concerns, or decrease the presence of unsheltered homelessness or public perception of it. Here's a key paragraph. Each one of these points is
backed by years of peer-reviewed research. Criminalization ordinances have existed for decades, yet there is no empirical evidence that these punitive policies reduce homelessness. Pairing permanent housing with
accessible services for unhoused people remain effective at solving homelessness and often save money. For a full review of the literature, see the alliance's research summaries and I will send this to you folks as professors do. And just
in conclusion, I urge you to not only consult your consciences and your hearts and think of your legacy as other people have said, um, but read the research because the research tells us what's
effective, what works, what causes more problems. And, uh, I urge you to think about that in making this important decision. I would not be proud to be from Hadenfield to be living Hadenfield resident if this ordinance is passed. Thank you.
Thank you. Uh before we get to the next speaker since uh there's still a lot of time and Ira you reminded me uh because I am too at a university that I would my my the students would kill me if we went 2
hours and 45 minutes without a bio break. So, I'm calling a fiveminute bio break for us because if you want us to listen to you, we have to not be paying attention to our bladders. So, give us a couple minutes. Uh, we'll be right back. All right, we're back in. Um,
hi. Um, I could use this. Um, my name is Michael Frell. I live um in Hatton Township on West Monav like about about a block away. Um, I often walk into Hadenfield.
Um but some of the some of the speakers um brought up many great points tonight. Um, I also am urging you to reject uh this. Um, some of the things that I didn't hear
tonight uh include um, you know, homelessness is a very complicated issue and um, we have many systems in this country that are inter interdependent and many uh,
uh, crisises at the moment. One of which is healthcare. Um the current administration has recently cut uh Medicare Medicaid by $1 trillion. And
um I'd hate to see um people lose access to that healthcare coverage uh or go into medical debt, which is unfortunately more common um than it should be in this country. um as
a developed nation and then lose access to their um housing as a result of that to no fault of their own. Um and I think as many other people have uh
stated tonight that there's many experts that you can consult um to resolve and and analyze and look at this from a different perspective. one of empathy. And
um some of the other issues uh that were brought up tonight include uh public urination and and uh things of that nature. And I for one believe that's a issue of service. Um, I think
we can do better as a society and um, plenty of other um, companies have shown this to be the case. Some a company like Valve for example uh, solved this with game
pirating. Uh, Gabe Newle said it was an um, a problem with the service and access to it. Um, it prevents pirating because it's easier to access um the things that are that people are
looking for. Um, and it's much more affordable than jailing someone that's already in some of the most difficult moments of their life. So, I would just say uh end
this and say please consult experts. There's plenty of examples throughout the world. Um, and uh, look at it from a point of empathy. Thank you. Thank you, Mike.
Good evening. Uh, Joshua Hos from Belmar. I just had two quick questions. One of them in response to some questions from other folks. I just want to clarify. It's not like if this amendment doesn't pass suddenly public urination is legal, right? That's already illegal, I assume.
Uh yes, it is. Okay. And the second thing is I think it would be useful to know since part of the amendment requires that you use a public restroom. Like if we could perhaps get a list of how many public restrooms are available in the town and
if any of them are open 24 hours. I think that would be useful to understand the consequences of the amendment. Thank you. Thanks, Josh. All right. I'm not an auctioneer. Well, it's it's actually public comment. This isn't a back and forth. So, if you
have a comment to make, go right ahead. No, no, we've been taking questions the whole time. Well, please, it it this this is a comment addressed to us. It it could be in the form of a question. My name is Moren Dodson. I live on Colonial
Avenue. And my question is, the situation that some of the business owners described um was behavior that I'm assuming is already criminal behavior in our community. There's already laws against
pooping in front of a business and throwing your garbage on the ground. And there's laws against breaking and entering a building, a car, breaking a window, criminal mischief. We already have those laws, correct? And we have they're
enforced already. So this the only thing that's different is it would be criminal to sleep on a bench outside between dusk and dawn. Is there anything else that's different than what's already
illegal in Hadenfield? So I'll rephrase your question. What is different? What is different? Okay, fair enough. Thank you. And if the businesses are feeling compromise that their customers don't feel safe or people may
not want to eat outside or like Liz with her real estate business, shouldn't we already be dealing with and how would you know if the person who did that was a homeless person versus just
a local just someone who's I don't like are all these people causing these crimes sleeping on our street every single night. I only ever see when I walk late or early one or two people I feel like I've gotten I know who these
two ladies are. Um I know a couple gentlemen in town who I see they're kind of denisens. I don't know if they're homeless, but they spend their day on our on Kings Highway all day. They walk I see them very far away from here
sometimes because they leave and go wherever they live and then I see them come very early in the morning sometimes back on bike or by foot. They spend their day here. I don't know if they're the ones causing this mischief, but I feel like if the only thing we're going
to to do in this piece of legislation is criminalize sleeping outside, I don't I don't think there's any value in this. If we everything else that's causing the problems is already illegal, then we should we should be able to
enforce those laws and take care of the problem without introducing other legislation that criminalizes someone for having nowhere to go. That's all. Thanks, Marie. Uh, you've had a you've had a bunch. There's only one turn each person. Thank
you. Anyway, no, there's not a separate question section. We were taking questions. No, no, that's this isn't changing and giving time to each other. This is a meeting to give us information. You've had your bite at the apple. So, I'm
going to move ahead. All right. That's okay. Uh you say no Herb no um it Herb no it's how it works so and there are more people who are still
waiting so um so I'm going to move to online seeing no more first timers in the room u so I believe the person who has had their marathon hand up first is how I can't read it
yeah I I either Yep, there you go. It's just so long and it's too far away. Good evening everybody. My name is Miss Pringle um Teresa and I serve in many capacities of homelessness. I want to
thank you all for coming out. But I would like you to think about Oh, didn't mean to interrupt. Uh town. Oh, I am from Newark. I'm not from Hadenfield, but I want you to think about something. I serve as a state advisory board member and I've had lived
experience coming out of Union County, Westfield, New Jersey. And the point of what I want to say is that uh there were some good points. Um I've survived homelessness and I I have my own place, but have you thought of the possibility
of lawsuits? and we look at homelessness and I've looked at the room for quite some time and what we're not taking into account everybody doesn't start out hooked on drugs or alcohol or mental
health having experienced homelessness. You have to fight to keep your sanity. And what I'm saying to you, much like Rich said, I see quite a few people on the call, Matthew Herz, Rya, Raquel, and
the DCA advisory board, is that there comes a time where you need to get boots on the ground, people who have experience doing this work and are successful at this work. because it's a point in
time where after looking at the rooms for any of you that want to do the research as I always say we have executive orders coming down that will affect a great many people no matter what your income is one trip to the
doctors one need of assistant living or nursing home can throw you into homelessness if you don't have the resources so my suggestion is and I understand the business um perspective because I am a business
owner. However, I think at this point that it would be wise to table this and speak to the rich and comm community the um community and development network of New Jersey, New Jersey Coalition,
Monarch Housing who does the point in time count as well as others who are doing this work well. And the reason I said this is because what happens is when you have no programs or services that are effective
that we get the spill out in Newark, in Patterson, in Camden, you give people bus tickets. Not saying you per se, but that's what happens when you don't have programs or services. And even though
you may not be able to specifically afford them, can't you afford to collaborate with and partner with other townships that will or are starting to experience it? Thank you. That's all I have. Thank you.
Never. That's who I thought had her hand up forever. Yeah, that one. I have had my hand up forever. Good evening. Uh my name is Raquel Cooper, co-founder of the New Jersey Homelessness Action Collaborative. Um
and also definitely a part of spreading it to probably over a hundred folks that were either in attendance um in person or on Zoom here tonight as part of this collaborative as members of this collaborative which is consists of um people who have experienced homelessness
whether current or previously um CEOs, executive directors, government um like county government executives um we have It's a frontline worker, social workers. We have a slew
of folks who have joined this collaboration. Um, advisory board members from all over this entire state. I personally do not live in Hadenfield. I work in all 21 counties. However, um, and I want to remind commissioners,
council members that the role of municipal government is to serve its people, right? So true peace and good order doesn't come from citations and handcuffs. It comes from building a community where residents can actually
afford to live, work, thrive, right? So you have a choice in Hatenfield tonight. You can pass an ordinance that drives people further into despair, right? And and becoming invisible even more so than they are now when you walk on by them. Or you can take a stand, show some
dignity, some compassion, right? and use real common sense, right? By rejecting the criminalization of homelessness and instead coordinate with those who are coordinating all over the place to to build
affordable housing, right? To create affordable housing. There are so many um variations of affordable housing and there are so many ways to be resolute about this at a local level, right? um as part of a statewide collaborative,
right? Or or even a a tri county collaborative. Um and in that case, you have the the COC, the continuum of care, which you know, your county is part of a um a four county continuum. Hampton, Kate, make Cumberland, and Gloucester
all part of one um coming up with solutions with with federal funding. But if if you want peace and good order, right, don't build jails, you know, if you you cannot take it away poverty, you cannot jail away
homelessness, but you can solve it with housing, right? Housing and then the services come in. And the real crime, right, a real crime is a town where people can't afford to live, you know? So, if you want to fix it, fix it together. reach out to those who who actually know how to how to fix it and
who are doing it and changing the culture in many places. So, you could be an example for sure because there's way less uh way less towns who have criminalized homelessness than those that have found solutions. But, um and I will say that some people gave a lot of
numbers, a lot of good statistics. It really is like a a fiscal crime to do this right on the taxpayer because it's it costs it's approximately I think someone said earlier around 12,000 it was ranging from 12 to 16,000 per year
per twoerson household in a moderate one-bedroom to house that twoerson household versus the 75,000 per inmate per year or the 320,000 to throw them in Greystone. phone. I
think it was Rich Uniak who gave that number before. Those are real numbers. So, and you can look them up. Verifiable. So, that's all I got. But you could reach out. Again, New Jersey Homelessness Action Collaborative. We're large group of us. Thanks, Ael.
No problem. Joseph, good evening, commissioners. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. And I'd first like to thank everybody that has come out and spoke spoken so first.
Yes. My name is Joseph Bouvier. I live in Merchantville. Thank you. And I first want to thank everybody who's come out and spoken tonight because they've done an excellent job presenting a lot of uh information to you all tonight. Um, I want to point out
homelessness is often due to conscious choices made by lawmakers. For over 40 years, our federal government has repeatedly reduced taxes on the wealthy and at times significantly cut spending
on social welfare programs that would help prevent homelessness. Even as the chasm between the halves and have knots has gotten wider and wider and more disperate, we all see that the cost of housing has skyrocketed in recent years and there's
not enough affordable housing and that's a problem that leads to a spike in homelessness. Um, but plans for more and more box warehouses are approved by towns catering to big business and the
welloff. So, I look at it as our priorities are really out of whack. They are frequently based on greed, and that's a problem. Until last year, the courts consistently held that criminalizing homelessness was wrong, was unconstitutional.
But the current corrupt Supreme Court recently overturned decades of precedent by hold upholding a law very similar to that which Hadenfield looks to uh has proposed for this uh meeting tonight.
But we've we've heard there are already laws on the books prohibiting disturbing the peace, rioting, creating unnecessary noise, things that uh are are items that people have complained about tonight as the need for why we need such an ordinance.
So, criminalizing with possible jail time, sleeping overnight on seats or benches or protractedly lounging on those seats or benches, whatever that means specifically, strikes me as inherently cruel and unnecessary because
we've already got laws on the books to prohibit certain activities that are deemed criminal. And these this proposed ordinance is particularly cruel given the economically trying times that people are going through right now that so many
people are having difficulties with. Jailing people because they cannot afford housing is just unusually cruel. There have to be better solutions. Focusing on prevention of homelessness rather than punishing homelessness.
For instance, increasing the minimum wage, requiring developers to build higher percentages of affordable housing when doing construction projects, increasing the level of state disability benefits, increasing the level of social social
security benefits, passing Medicare for all, raising taxes on the wealthy, providing greater social services, preventing corporations from purchasing homes in order to sell and make a profit. These are all things that can be
done that will reduce the risk of homelessness. We have to protect our vulnerable citizens. Criminalizing homelessness will simply put poor people in a much worse place, perhaps to the point where they can never recover from
being homeless. They may not ever be able to overcome that. I I have a question. I I wonder who presented this ordinance amendment to the board of commissioners. Is there an organization pushing this agenda to item to towns
across our state or across the country? Is there any connection to the for-profit prison industry? Because jailing people is expensive. We've heard it's a lot more expensive than building providing home um homes for people temporarily.
And you know who pays for that expensive jailing system? Taxpayers do. Who profits from it? The for-profit prison industry. I leave it with, is jailing homeless pe people a good idea? Of course not. It's
not. I ask that the commission do the research and withdraw this proposed amendment. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Jeffrey. and and lastly, Sierra, you've been very patient.
Thank you. Thank you all. Um, good evening, commissioners, and thank you for the opportunity to speak and thank you for holding this space and also thank you for those who were brave enough to uplift their voice tonight. My name is Sierra. I am a survivor advocate
who supports domestic violence survivors across the entire state including in the town of Haden Township. I also visit Haden Township because I live close nearby. I am here today to speak firmly against the criminalization of homelessness. Criminalizing people for
being unhoused does not solve the problem. As we've heard tonight, it deepens it. Domestic violence is one of the leading causes of homelessness, particularly for women and children. One in four women and one in seven men in the United States will experience severe
intimate partner violence in their lifetime. This means that every one of us knows someone who has been affected and impacted by domestic violence whether we're aware of it or not. According to the National Network to end domestic violence, in just one night in New Jersey, people were seeking help.
And in just one night, this includes Camden County and Haden Township, there were 733 adults and children that found refuge in emergency shelters, transitional housing, hotels, motel, and other housing providers um and local
programs. But there were also 187 unmet requests with for housing. And so we know that there is a lack of sufficient resources and funding. And we know that um approximately 74% of unmet needs every night includes emer emergency
shelter, hotels, motel, transitional housing, and other housing that those on the street need access to. Across our state, including in Hen Township, there are simply not enough affordable, safe, and stable housing options for those fleeing abuse. Survivors don't choose to
be victims, and they don't choose homelessness. No one, including survivors of domestic violence, should be criminalized for experiencing trauma or lack of being access being able to access safe, stable housing. These are
moments when people need support, not punishment. There are advocates like myself working in communities and agencies across New Jersey and in Haden Township who are deeply committed to addressing this crisis. We are ready and willing to collaborate with
policymakers, service providers, and community members to create real compassionate solutions. We need investment in housing, supportive services, and trauma-informed care. This is a critical and urgent issue, and we cannot arrest our way out of it. I urge
you to reject this amendment and policies that criminalize homelessness and instead work with us, those who are invested in the community to support and protect our most vulnerable neighbors. So, I thank you for this opportunity.
Thank you, Sierra. Any other online um visitors would like to make comment? All right. Seeing none, I will move to close the public comment period on the agenda. Second.
Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell in favor. Um I'm going go through the list of questions I heard. Um you can add to this as you like both of you. Um,
and then not every question that gets answered tonight. I'll be really honest about that. You've asked us questions. You've asked us to think. To say that we already have an answer for you. Uh, means we're close-minded. So, uh, you're not going to get an answer to every question I was posed, but I'll go
through the list. So, Marine, I'll I'll list yours first. So, what is different about this law? I'm going to list them all and then we'll start to get to them. U, there's what are the stats? Uh who brought it forward? Why now?
Uh what's different about this in Collinswood? Uh did you get told to to put this on an agenda? Uh what's the process of the action of the law? Like what happens? Walk us through, you know,
a day in the life. Uh what's the list of public restrooms in Hadenfield and the surrounding areas? uh talk about the timing and then the process of the law. So this is almost like I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill kind of question.
Like how does this work? Um so they're the ones I heard. Anybody want to add to the list? Those are great. Let's start there. All right. Who brought it? The commissioners of Hadenfield. Uh that's why it's on the agenda. Uh no. No.
Okay. Okay. Well, we'll disagree about that. I will honestly tell you, I promised you transparency during the campaign and you voted for me. I'm telling you now, this was not me. In fact,
I argued against this the entire time that this was being debated. So, no, this is not the bureau commissioners. I want nothing to do with this. All right, fair enough. Thank you. Uh, did we get told to bring this? Well, all three of us will answer this question.
No. Uh, I was asked by the residents. I can tell you from having observed the process in which this ordinance came to be. It is not rooted in research. From my personal
opinion, from what I've observed, it is not rooted in data or stats. It is not rooted in any moral code. So what does that leave behind? Political ideology. I don't know, but I can tell you what it's not rooted
in. Okay. Um stats. Uh I guess I go to the chief on this one. Uh can you give us some stats on homelessness in Hadenfield? Yeah. For anybody who doesn't know, my name is Jason Cutler. I'm the chief of police in
Hadenfield. I've been in law enforcement. Thank you, Jason. Could you Yeah, you gota use the mic. I thought it was loud enough. Uh, so I'm the chief of police in Hadenfield. I've been in Hadenfield for 31 years, 34 years in law enforcement
total. Uh, seven years as chief of police. Uh, so I I'll just go over some stats and then I'll say some words that I some of my opinions that I've I've seen. Um, this year alone, uh, year to date, uh, as of last, uh, Friday, we
answered 148 calls for homeless individuals, uh, check the well-being, trespassing, disorderly conduct. All those 148 calls had to do with somebody that was homeless. Okay. Out of that
148, 103 were from four individuals. Um 57 was the top and then it went down from there. Uh we we've made arrests some of those people for trespassing. Uh
most of it's using uh public restrooms to bathe. Uh things like that. Uh defecating in public areas. Uh things like that. Those were uh the biggest for trespassing
businesses. uh you know, call us all the time saying, "Hey, there's somebody in." We ask them to leave and they're not leaving. So then that's when we we show up. Uh we we ask them to leave. If they don't want to leave, then we unfortunately we have to go further. It
is not our goal to incarcerate anybody, whether it be for homeless or anybody. I you know, I wish there was no no crime at all, but you know, we live in the real world and that's just not possible. But our goal and my goal as chief of police and my department's goal is not
to incarcerate homeless. Okay? This just gives us an avenue, another step, a tool in the tool bag to get them to help. Our number one goal is to help. You know, I've been in law enforcement 34 years. Every time that me or my officers deal
with a homeless person, our number one question is, "How can I help you? How are you? What do you need? I personally watch officers take money out, give money to to homeless people. I've seen them go bump and be me, drive them places, let them use their cell phones.
This is not, you know, we're what the biggest thing I heard tonight was compassion. And I agree with all of you. You know, when I when I first became chief 7 years ago, one of my my goals was what what do I want the police department to be? You know, what do we
stand for? Okay. So, I I came up with three three goals, three core values. Number one is service. Obviously, we're a police department. We're here to serve you. Number two, we serve with integrity. So, integrity was my number my second core goal. And my third one
was compassion. It's on our coins. It's on our our website. Compassion has been my core value since I started law enforcement. That's one of the reasons why I got in. So I take offense some and and I know that you know this is a very passionate discussion and I applaud
everybody for coming and I don't disagree with anybody. Uh you you know I I would love to see no homeless but unfortunately that's not going to happen. Okay, we can build the best. I I heard that let's build the best. Hey, that's great. Let's pay for it. Let's
find property. Let's do it. I'm all for it. But the experience that I've had and I've talked to other chiefs in the area because I know this is a hot topic. What is going on in your community? What are you doing differently? If if you have a homeless population that's decreasing,
what are you doing that we're not? Nobody could give me a great answer except, hey, our homeless problem is is getting bigger as well. That that that's that's the problem that we have. Uh we every time we we ask, can I take you somewhere? Can I do anything for you?
Most of the time the answer is no. All right. And that's it. No, I don't need your help. I don't want your help. For whatever reason, whether it's you, you know, in law enforcement, I' I've dealt with three types of homeless people, and I'm going to generalize. One, the person that that
has come on hard luck. They they lost her job, uh divorce, uh I heard domestic violence from Sierra. She's she's correct. That happens. Those are more normally the people that take the help. Then you have substance abuse. People that are addicted, people that have
fallen on their, you know, bad times because they got an accident, got addicted to pills, and that led to to other problems. That's two. And the third is mental illness, which is probably our biggest here in Henfield. Anytime,
you know, for the past year, we have between four and six regular homeless people, I would say. and and I hate to classify as regular homeless people, but there four to six people that we deal with on a on a basis more often than not. When I first started, there was one
to two. So, there has been an increase, you know, over the years. Just last year, we only had 88 calls for the entire year uh for 2024 of homeless people. So, you can see it's getting different or getting getting more and
it's becoming more of a problem. you know, when asked, you know, who brought this to the attention, the the the commissioner was right as in I get calls every day. You know, I have the responsibility of of safety for not only the homeless
people, the residents, the visitors, the school children. I'm responsible for everybody, my me and my department. And I can't ignore those voices either. There were a lot of voices here tonight against and and I applaud you guys, but there's a lot of voices that I get every
day. What are you doing about the homeless? This person's, you know, peeing in my fountain. This person's doing this. This person's doing that. What are you doing about that? So, I brought if any if you want to blame somebody, blame me or blame the residents, you know, I brought this to
the attention to the commissioners. Whatever happens after that, that's for them to decide. But this this is a problem that my police department is having. I need help to solve it. All right? This was just one way. The goal of this and this is my goal is not to
incarcerate anybody. It's just to to move people to get help and that's our number one goal. I'm sorry I took a lot of time. That's okay. You know, if you want me to keep No, no. I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. So, um I'm happy to answer anything more. So there are this is day
237 of the year and you said we've had over 148 calls. 148 calls. All right. So that's a little that is more than one a day. Not quite two a day. U is homelessness a crime in Hadenfield?
Yeah. No. Okay. I mean listen urination and defication. There is no state law except you know this ordinance is an ordinance is less doesn't when you get convict of an ordinance doesn't go on your permanent
record you you go to the FBI they let know that you're you've been arrested for violation of so this seeks this organ seeks to lower the penalty
the lud statute if you were defeating in public or urinating public. The only issue, the only thing we can charge you with is loot right now. That's either a disorderly person's defense or a crime depending on where you do it and who you do it from. So you can also be on so
this actually this ordinance kind of lessens the effects of your problem, but it it codifies it in a um Okay. Thank you. Any more questions for the chief from a stat standpoint?
How many homeless people do we have? Between fours. Between four and six. All of this is for four to six people. Okay. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if we can accept questions. I'm sorry. No, there is no accept public comment's
closed. We're answering questions from the public comment. Um, why now is a question. I'll get back to that because just tackle some easy ones. Public restrooms. There are no 24-hour public restrooms in Hadenfield. Are there any in the police station?
Well, the police station. Okay. Um, that's the only 24/7 thing we have in town of anything. Okay. Um, public restrooms are at our ball fields. Uh, they're at Crows Woods. Uh, they're not
24 hours a day, but they're open most days. Um, police station herb. Oh, the phone at the police station's it broken. Okay, thank you. Hey, speaking out
said 429300 talked to dispatch, right? That's an issue that we're fixing. So there's really no way to get into a public bathroom police station as far as I'm concerned after use
and that's not lost the irony it's not lost that a homeless person might not have a cell phone right all right so I'll just clear that up uh Collinswood um so one of the stats chief and this is a question and it has to do with Collinswood um is
in the at in the stat stats that you put out weekly. Uh there are warrants served. Uh can you talk about what that is and and what happens and why does Collins would have anything to do with it?
So the mayor's right. Uh on a weekly basis now we're putting out basic stats that the police department does. Not all of them just some noteworthy ones. Uh one of them is warrants served. Uh what a warrant is if somebody gets issued a ticket whether it be for speeding,
parking, urinating public, whatever, uh most of the time in New Jersey now, you'll get a ticket. And that's what'll happen uh for any ordinance violation. 99.9% of the time you'll just get a summon like a speeding ticket or a parking ticket and said, "Hey, come to
court. We allege that you did this. Talk to the judge. If he finds you guilty, there's a fine or not." So what happens is when we give you the ticket, there's a court date. If you don't show up for a court date, what do they do? They send you a reminder. Say, "Hey, you didn't show up for court." What's after the
second time you didn't show up for court? What do they do? They send you another reminder. You have to get three or four reminders before they actually issue a warrant for your arrest. So once they issue a warrant for your arrest, it goes in the system. And anytime a police officer runs your name for whatever
reason, whether it be running your tag, you know, uh, we get a call because you're playing the music too loud, we put your your name in a database and it pops up a warrant and that's what a warrant served us. Sure. And and, uh, it doesn't matter what town issued that warrant. No, it doesn't matter what what town.
It's anywhere in the state. And there are, you know, US war, you know, there's if you get stopped in Hawaii and they issue a warrant for your arrest and they put it into a special system, we could arrest you for Collins would came up specifically there's a there's a big difference. So
like what's different? Not not with the law, but there's a difference. Uh the difference in Collinswood is the property owner of a business uh would own not only their business, but all the space all the way to the curb. So, they own their sidewalk, the business in
front of it. Uh, in Hadenfield, the property line ends at the front of your building and the sidewalk is public property. As uh Andrew had mentioned, he there's days he's not allowed to put his his chairs out because it's our property and you have to get a permit to put out
your chairs. There are days we say you can't put out your chairs because we have events. There are other days cuz it's raining and we say please don't put it out because people are bustling with their umbrellas and all. But in Collinswood, they own their sidewalks, merchants. Um, and you have found that
there is an increase in trespass tickets or whatever. Yeah. That that they have with homeless. So, Collins, I don't want to call out any other town, but this is how they dealt with their homeless issue is they charged they they had the business
owners keep charging an individual with with being on their property and eventually it led to warrants. They had no caveat. There was no we want to help you first. There was no, you know, we have to offer you shelter kind of like our ordinance is trying to do is trying,
we're trying to gear you towards help. They were trying to gear you towards jail, I guess. But in New Jersey, it's very hard to get jailed for a bur ordinance violation. Chief, just a correction on that. They do offer the help and assistance before
that. It's when the businesses and the businesses were providing food and shelter for them and at a certain point some of the businesses got fed up with it and then they would issue the trespassing when Gotcha. they found unpleasant things on their property.
I were those Yep. I stand corrected. All right. No, thank you. Yep. Uh any other questions for the chief? Thanks, Chief. Are you um can you speak to us about the kind of training the police officers who report to you
receive on trauma-informed care or dealing with those with mental health um challenges? Well, we we we receive ongoing training on on everything especi especially that we uh there's something called New Jersey Learn uh that we are
uh required to do so many continue education credits uh for lack of better terms through the attorney general's office. Uh there were two modules on that issue about two years ago. So every officer gets trained initially in the initial training in the police
department and then there's ongoing training whatever the attorney general decides hey this year we're going to deal with XYZ next year we're going to do with ABC. So it it's all that uh did I understand that correctly? You said two modules two years ago. Yes,
I understand. Um I I lost my train of thought, but do you feel that that level of training is sufficient to address mental health challenges? We the police department that's kind of a loaded question. We are not mental
health care providers. You know, we we have c, you know, just like we have burrow EMTs. They're highly trained in emergency medicine, things like that. Paramedics, uh we're cursory trained in in everything. We have to be the jack of all trades. Uh what we what we're
trained to do is basically assess a situation for immediate danger. Is there an immediate danger to this person? What what immediate help can we get them and then refer them to to properly trained individuals or not properly trained better that have better training so we
can assess or triage the situation and then get them the care that they need. Once they're in that care level, then it's, you know, it's it's up for them to either, you know, accept the the help or or not. But we can we can lead the horse to the water, but we can't make him
drink, right? I'm good. Frank, any one more question? No, John. Uh, you No, no, that's okay. I'm gonna ask you, John, ask me.
Yeah, I'll ask you a question. Have you ever drawn your gun? Have I ever drawn my gun? Twice. Okay. Uh it's a tool that I've never twice and pointed at somebody, you know. So, uh that's that's what I meant. Yeah. It's it's a tool that I have. I
hope to never use it. And this is kind of what maybe you're getting at is this ordinance is a tool in my toolbox that I hope we'll never have to use. My goal, like I first stated, is not to write a summon to anybody for being homeless. I I agree that's but it gives the police
department or the avenue to say, "Hey, you don't want my help, but we're going to make you take the help because you're not helping yourself." You know, I've spoken to the municipal court judge, uh, you know, I've known him for 30 years. He doesn't want to
incarcerate anybody for for this either. But they the court can mandate, hey, you know, you need, you know, a psychological evaluation because most of the people that we deal, the homeless individuals that we we deal in town have some degree of mental illness. It's not
the family that lost the the you know, the parents lost their job and they're living in a car, things like that. That's a horrible situation. All these situations are horrible. But, you know, the mental illness, they can't help themselves. the the people that lost their job, you know, at least they have the wherewithal to say, "Hey, this is
what I need to do. This is the help I need. This is what I can do. This is the path to get out." I think I think Sierra was was one that said that the you know, the the people with mental disabilities, they don't know they have problems sometimes. They don't know the right
path to go to. And this is what as a police department and this is how I want to steer them to get them the help that they need. Would you ever turn down coordinated help? No. Okay. Thank you. I don't have any more
questions. No, I did not. I said it was not quite two a day. It is a more than one a day. More than one. Less than two. More than one. Less than two. No, we're at day 237 and we have 148.
And if you double that, that's calls. The individuals we're discussing are four to six people. To me, that's actually important data point. There could be a thousand calls, but we're dealing with four to six people.
Okay. Did I answer your question? Uh, no. 237 148 * 2 is 296 and that's bigger than 237. Yeah, I think you're getting stuck on a
number. It is more than one a call one call. It's No. Yeah, you're right. No, you're right. You're right. It's one every two days. It's less than one every two days. Yes. There you go. There you go. So, you did misspeak. Thank you. All
right. So, one, right? So, okay. Um, yeah. All right. It's also uh 11:05, right? So, okay. Um, any other any other questions that you want to have answered? Timing and process of the law?
The the process of the law. Tonight is the introduction of an ordinance. What is that? That is the majority opinion of the Bureau of Hadenfield's commissioners as a idea to address a problem.
It's what it is when you elect people, you elect them to present ideas. And it's, and I say this to to my staff, I've said this to my children, I say this to nearly anybody because I talk to just about everyone. Um, if you ask somebody for an idea, you
get very few. And when you ask people for their opinion, you get a lot. And we're putting out an idea that we need opinions. So, we've done our part and now we're now you're doing your part. That's the first reading.
some and then we have until the end of our legislative year in December to take in the feedback that you're getting to then decide if we want to have a hearing to make it the ordinance and that's the
process that we go through. Um I am very heartened tonight and and I'm not going to make a statement yet. Um, that's how it's supposed to work. But the conversation starts now. It doesn't
start 3 months ago. It started 3 months ago as a problem presented to the commissioners and we've had to work to come up with an idea to address it. Now, we've presented it to the public. At a minimum, it's 30 days, right, S? Yeah.
At a minimum, it's 30 days and we have until December 31st to actually take any action on it or not. So, that's the process. Um, the timing, not sure. We haven't even talked about it yet. You know, you've talked about it to us. We haven't talked about it with each other
to see if we want to edit it, if we want to do anything. Even if we wanted to vote on it tonight, we haven't even done that yet. Uh, the process of the law, I think you kind of covered that, like what you do with it. Um, and I don't think the other
questions why now. Ah, the hell it's not getting late. So, I give you do you have a why now answer? Uh, so the the why now is uh the the problem is not getting any better. And if you look at the stats around the uh
you know the the country uh the US in 2020 you had about 580,000 people uh homeless people in in a single night. uh by 2024 that rose to uh 771,000 and uh you know I'll I guess I'll I'll
maybe declare a speech here because it'll be more than two minutes but um when you talk about like uh you know how come they're not consulting with the experts and if you look at the trend in Camd County it's about the same uh Ke County is going up
and um you know basically where it used to trend around five to 600 now it's up to 650 again at the end of 2024. So if you say uh you know why are you working on this now? Why wait? People aren't getting healthier if they
live on the street every day. We just had someone die here two weeks ago. Herb knew him. So what what is the benefit in waiting? And if you if you think about this, is this perfect? Like not at all. But like you have to have a starting point for something. You have to have
the the the the starting point to to maybe change a different direction. And you know, I used to have a boss that said this that you know, if you if you always do what you've always done, you always get what you've always gotten. So if you say you we should consult with the experts, spend time, slow down the process, consult with the experts. What
are the experts getting us? Homelessness is going up. and and and so so so the starting point is so the starting point is you had your chance to speak ladies and gentlemen. Frank
it's okay. So the the reason for it is to to start the process now to start as soon as possible to save as many people as possible because there are more and more people at risk every single day. So there's no reason to lay
people in jail because of corrupted government. Wait, may I have a turn? First of all, well, I was going to wait. I was I was giving you the turn next. Thank you, Dave. Thank you. Um well, now you know what I've been working on. Um I want to first
acknowledge first of all, thank you to all of you and everyone who came and left. I I truly appreciate it. Um, no matter what your argument was, I think this is the best of democracy. And again, I promised you transparency and I wanted to let you know when this
was being introduced so you can come in, voice your opinion, whatever it is. I think having heard everybody today, I think we're all in agreement. I think we're all saying very similar things. Wholeness is the problem. I agree. They
agree. The true debate where we disagree is how we want to solve it. Now, where we're also maybe disagreeing is how much we want to sensationalize it, the scale of the problem, um how much fear-mongering we want to use. I think
we disagree on that too. But truly, we agree that homelessness is a problem we want to solve. Right? Generally, I've heard two approaches. Approach one, send the police, let the police deal with this. Um, and this
ordinance essentially will make sleeping outside a municipal level crime, which means our police will have to deal with it. But if you ask anyone who has done any research on this or studied it, that that does not work. You end up even if
you give a citation to the person, they can't pay it. Maybe they never go to jail. I mean, um, that's the end game, right? They're going to go to jail because they're not going to be able to pay this fine. So, three, four, five
times, however much. And so, I don't see how that and then they're in jail, right? They come out, where do they go? Jail is not stable housing. So, they're going to end up back right on the street. We haven't solved
anything. And we pay the county for that. Sorry, I'm I'm I've jotted notes as we as everyone was talking. So, um, on the other hand, the other approach is a tried and proven approach. By the way,
the criminalization has been what we've been doing for decades and doesn't work. The other tried and proven approach is meet people in their moment of need. Don't send a police officer with a gun. Send a social worker. Send a specialist
who actually is trained in this and can meet that person, build a relationship, build trust, earn that relationship, and eventually lead them to stable housing with the wraparound services that will keep them stably housed. Right? That's another approach. So, we've we've been
debating how do we want to go at solving this problem? Do we want to send our police in who get two modules every two years on training on this or do we send specially trained mental health specialists maybe in partnership with the police so that it is actually dealt
with in an effective way. I I think if we go about it this way people are going to end up in a position that is worse than than anything else. Now I cannot speak to the effort that my colleagues put in. I can speak only to my own effort, but I've only been in
this role for three months. And upon this topic coming up, I went to work. I reached out to the county uh social services team. I reached out to the state social services team. I reached out to neighboring municipalities to talk about this and whether or not we
can do any direct shared service program. I spoke to our faith leaders. In fact, I spoke to a representative from the Council of Churches. I also spoke to nonprofits. I set it on workshops. I I put in a lot of hours to this. I feel quite well informed on what
will work and what will not work. A social worker that is a town resource would be an incredible way to solve this. And it would be Hadenfield being a leader. And we don't even had to hire the
person. Our council of churches have offered and they pulled the money themselves have offered to hire. We would just have to support them and maybe help subsidize and help find an office space for for that person downtown. Let them build a relationship, keep track of the folks who who we need
to find housing for. Why have And the question was why now? Yeah. Why did you guys wait? Collectively, you two have been in office for what, five years? I've been in this role three months and I found these. Five months more than you would take. Okay.
Just pointing it out. I had public works. I no and public. No, we're not going to turn this into that. I'm going to ask a question. Are do you have a statement you would like to read before we all of this is um selective enforcement
is going to be a huge problem. You're leaving interpreting this ordinance to the police officer who is responding to the situation. Selective enforcements means discrimination. That is a lawsuit. Now, this town has a terrible habit of accumulating lawsuits. We just settled
couple of million dollar lawsuit. I don't want us back there and it's going to happen. Um and refusing housing. Yes, people will refuse housing because the person who's responding is a police officer and we're admitting that that's what we've been doing this whole time and our solution
is we're going to keep doing it more. How does that make sense? So, no, I don't think sending a police officer will work. And yes, I think they will refuse help because that is not how you build trust and relationship. And as and when it comes to children, I
have two kids, three and six. I made a commitment to myself as a mother. I will never lie to them and I will prepare them for the world. And when we come across a difficult situation, I'm not I it is not my job as their mother to hide them from
discomfort and the realities of the world. I use that opportunity to have a very honest conversation of th those realities that we have to observe. and they get to choose the kind of person they want to be with that information. As for public restrooms, as again a
mother to a three and a six-year-old, I'm actively potty training. Yes, a public restroom would be lovely. Thank you. Um All right. Thank you. Uh Frank, you have do you have anything you want to add before we kind of close us? Thank you.
Uh nothing to add. All right. Uh there are lots of ways to look at this problem. One way is things that work and things that don't. I think of it differently. Things that should and
things that must. And and I'll explain that right now. So tonight we're starting the discussion about this amendment. I want to be clear an ordinance is
always the last resort. It is the boundary of what will happen. Not what is bound to happen. It is the last resort. This is what will happen. That's what an ordinance is. And our
goal, as you've heard from comment from our chief, um is not to punish people who are struggling, but our goal is to keep my goal, I'll speak in I statements, uh my goal is to keep our
public spaces safe and accessible for everyone. Homelessness isn't a crime. Thanks everyone for your public comments. Every idea I heard was a good one.
Like arrows in a quiver. For those who know me, I talk about arrows and quivers all the time. The more options our public safety officers have to engage with someone in crisis, the better. Right now, sadly, we have very few
services available. That's why I want to stress any and all ideas to support people in need are welcome. I asked the chief, would you turn it down? No. Whether or not whether it's our local
council churches, which I didn't speak to a representative. I spoke to one of them, right? Uh thank you, Neil, for your time. Um specialized county programs. We've I heard so many. I'm glad you wrote them down. Um, and even private nonprofits
that want to step in and be part of our solution, we encourage the partnership. Come on. Our preference is always to connect individuals with help, not to enforce penalties. Homelessness is not a crime. However,
crimes of desperation like shoplifting, breaking into unoccupied buildings, garages, trespassing on private property like backyards to use a hose, to use a pool to clean yourself and your clothing. Uh, that's trespassing that
needs to be enforced. I I'm not going to ask if everyone agrees on that. I believe those types of activities need to be enforced because they infringe on the rights of someone else, the property of someone else, the safety of someone
else. There are quality of life issues that we have and we will continue to give it all the attention necessary. Well, but this amendment also does something very important and I'm going to point it out because you ask what's what's different
about this. uh it aligns penalties with reality of the behavior. So currently, as chief said, certain acts like bodily acts in public can only be prosecuted under laws as severe as felony lwdness.
Or do it in front of a kid, Megan's law. That's a little drastic sounds to me. And it's not appropriate punishment. By moving those specific actions into a disorderly conduct category, uh we're
softening the penalty and making it sure that it reflects the circumstances fairly. This is one of the many compromises that we have to make as we address our own positions on this uh and and broadly on actually any issue. We have to come to a compromise and then
speak as a voice uh at the top of the agenda. It is the agenda of the board of commissioners. And so the question why now? I'm going to answer my why now. I only speak for myself here. Recent decisions by Pacco. I had a conversation out of the blue.
The guy got my number. Uh John Hansen, right, the CEO of the Del River Port Authority, called me and he explained to me about they're shutting their system down uh from Sunday night to Friday morning. Um
starting September 1st. Why now? For me, I ride the Paco all the time, all hours of the night and the day. I work in Philadelphia. I take it all the time. There are many unhoused that choose the safety of the public transportation system. It's cool in the
summer. It's warm in the winter. You're not alone because there are riders there all the time. They're shutting that down. They're taking away actually a safe space by shutting down the trains. At midnight, that train rolls into the
last station. You're told to get off the train and told to leave the station and the doors locked behind you. That is their plan. I would much rather as a homeless person, and I won't get into my personal background, but um for those that know
me, I'll just leave it at that. Um I'd much rather get off three stops, four stops before Lynenwald at 10 of 12 because Hadenfield is a safer place to
be homeless than it is in our neighboring communities. So that's the why now. The why now is the actions of PCO. They they've pushed and the current practices of some of our neighboring towns like I asked the chief uh they've
pushed more challenges into our community and in my view it's increased the urgency for us to have this conversation now when we're having it. I think it's already successful. We've started a
conversation that's long overdue. Uh but it's not just words. Those have to be followed up with actions. And here's the problem. In the absence of actions, we have to have a law. That's my view. We can't simply look the
other way. Uh we are addressing this, I believe, thoughtfully, responsibly, and with compassion. The three pillars of of the slogans of the police department. So, this ordinance to me is about balance. It's about keeping our downtown welcoming and safe, giving our officers
more appropriate tools, encouraging the community to also provide ideas, services, answers so it never gets to the police. So step forward because enforcement of homelessness is a community effort, not
an effort of the Hatenfield Police Department. Thanks. Uh I was remiss. Uh before we move forward, I I want to read something into the record uh on it. We Oh, actually, I'll do it in a minute because we'll move to the hearing. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a good point. It's a
better way to do it. Uh so, that's the public comment period is closed and we're moving on to the agenda portion. If anybody just wants to sit through our ordinances, I'm sure uh it is not the first thing on our ordinances. We got a couple hearings to go.
Um, so I'm going to move to the ordinance section. Ordinance 2 2025-08. This is the long-term tax exemption ordinance for Bankraftoft. It's the second reading public hearing and adoption vote.
Can I get a I I'm making the motion to uh to have the discussion and the hearing. Uh can I get a second? I'll second. Thank you. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor.
Commissioner Sidell in favor. Public hearing is open. The public hearing is open. If anyone from the public would like to speak on the adoption of our long-term exemption ordinance for bankrupt ex affectionately known as the pilot, uh please come
forward. Seeing none, I'll move to online. Is there anyone online that would like to make comment about the Bankraftoft pilot second reading and adoption? Seeing none, uh I'm going to ask for a vote to close
the public hearing uh and adopt the long-term exemption ordinance 2025-08 on second reading. Motion to close and adopt 2025-08 on second reading. I'll second.
Voting on that motion. Commissioner Troy in favor. Sorry. Commissioner Cole in favor. And Commissioner Sidell in favor. Uh the second second reading the second public hearing on an ordinance it at second reading is
2025-09 amend chapter 135 entitled land use for wireless telecommunications on second reading. I will make the motion to open the hearing uh and we'll open the hearing uh and invite the
public to make comment if they would like. Can I get a second? I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner, sorry. Commissioner Cole, wait, hold on. We're voting on telecommunication. Opening it up for comment. Oh, opening up for comment. Yes. Um, in favor?
Commissioner Troy, in favor? Commissioner Sadell, in favor. Uh, the hearing is open. Would anyone like to come and address the commissioners uh on the wireless telecommunication land use ordinance hearing? Uh we did have one one one uh
citizen come and talk to us uh at the open public comment period. Would you like another turn at it? No. All right. So I'm going to read David's first and then you could do it, John. So uh this is a letter from David
Desgalowski Desowski. Desowski. Thank you very much. Uh at Center Street Hadenfield. Um he is one of the two gentlemen uh John being the other one who will introduce himself that that gave us a lot of effort into
adopting a better ordinance. Um and and and I will point out uh after I read this we'll close it then I'll make a comment. Uh opposition to the wireless telecommunication ordinance on second reading. And dear board of commissioners, while we appreciate the opportunity to review and comment on
this draft ordinance in April and May of this year and again this summer on first and second reading, I remain concerned about the level of communication surrounding this draft ordinance and the timing of its official readings. Scheduling the second reading in late August, while so many of Hadenfield's
residents are away for the last moments of together time before school and sports and activities resume, seem curious at best and strategic at worst. In any event, I believe this draft ordinance is deeply flawed proposal for reasons I addressed briefly below. I originally tried offering comments and
proposed revisions to the ordinance some three months ago. I noted in an email to the administrator, Sharon McCulla, that New Jersey towns far bigger than ours are not incorporating Byzantine telecommunications ordinance like this one into their codes. To that end, comparisons are helpful. Our historic
barrow is 2.8 square miles and approximately two 20 12,500 residents. Yet, we are introducing into our code this sprawling ordinance that clocks in at 28 pages. By contrast, Mount Laurel is 22 square miles with over 74,000 people and its telecom its
telecommunication ordinance is 8 pages long. Freehold Township is 22 square miles with 45,000 people and its ordinance is seven pages long. I would like to think that the length of Hadamfield's proposal ordinance is proportional to the level of detail and care required to preserve our burrow's
look and feel. its historic landmarks and its property values. Unfortunately, I fear that is not the case with this ordinance. Rather than clearly and strictly limit the height of towers like Cherry Hill does in its ordinance, they have a cap at 35 ft in residential zones. Hadenfield's ordinance states
vaguely that height should be kept at a minimum. Rather than prohibit new lattice or guide towers in our burrow like Mount Laurel's telecommunication ordinance does, Hatenfield's ordinance allows any type of tower to be built here. Any
we proposed several years ago that the bureau adopt an ordinance to rest control of the sighting and development pol pro process from the telecommunication companies. This ordinance, however, seems to greenlight any and all pathways to towers, including monopolies, guide towers, and
lattice towers. Oh, monopolles, sorry, not monopolies, guide towers and lattice towers, and multiple ones at that in horses dark burrow. The first stated purpose of the ordinance is to accommodate the growing need and demand for personal wireless service. The second stated purpose of the ordinance
is to enhance the ability of the providers to personal wireless services to provide such services. In fact, one needs to keep reading until purpose number five. I repeat, purpose number five, until we get to any stated purpose about protecting the character and
attractiveness of the bureau. Why are we subordinating the interest of the bureau to the interest of the telecommunication companies in our very own ordinance? Hadenfield certainly did not take that tact when it successfully lobbied for the only below ground Paco station on the New Jersey side of the highspeed line. Why should we take such attack
now? The board should not adopt a pass now and amend later approach to this flawed ordinance. We should get it right the first time. If I were not out of state for family vacation, I would stand and deliver these remarks in person at Barrow Hall. In order to be heard, I
submitted this letter instead. I asked this letter to be read at the meeting so that it forms part of the official record. Thank you, David. John, very briefly, given the lateness of the hour, um this, as Dave said in his uh
letter, this is still a very flawed ordinance, but time and experience will show us what is material and what is merely hypothetical. But now that we have an ordinance in
place, uh assuming the commissioner is in favor of it tonight, it's time for regular order. We need to get away from the wild west approach of the last two failed monopole proposals. We have an
ordinance which subordinates the monopole approach to the seventh favorable choice and that's just not done on whim. that was done on the result of the survey process conducted by Cityscape that says the citizens of
this community do not want large cell phone towers in our community. They want the other approaches, the other technologies that are available. So, now that we're going to have the ordinance in place, let's let the ordinance do its
job. Let's try to regulate the the construction of wireless facilities in the town instead of erecting large monopols. Thank you. Thank you, John. Any comment from the commissioners? No.
I believe the master plan and the ordinance does just that. And I'd be all in favor of seeing what's out there uh and and what comes back when the ordinance is adopted. And then we start to get proposals. based off of what our
described need was described by city statescape, commented on by the planning board uh and and accepted. Uh I want to personally thank David and John for their work to make this a better proposal. Um for those that might not
understand, it's not the best proposal, but we have some of the worst self-service. And so this is where one right doesn't outweigh the rest of the rights that we have to balance. Uh I'm not going to point or reflect to other
ones other than to say Hadenfield's process was we wanted to submit one. We had a lot of comment when it was put out for first reading. We took it back. It made substantial enough changes to have
to reintroduce it as a first reading. We then sat, we got more comment, not comment that would change my mind because we could talk things to death and our cell service only gets worse and that's my opinion. Um,
uh, thank you. So, um, I'm not I will vote in a moment, but um, that's how I feel about it. Uh, any other comments from the public? Herb Herb
three minutes herb house Redmond Avenue be about 15 seconds. All right, fair enough. I know John's the expert. If there was any money to be made by the burrow from the installation of the big huge tower or some other solution, maybe part of it could be devoted to putting some public
restrooms or lavatories downtown. Thanks for the opinion. Thanks for the opinion, Herb. Not just an opinion. We've heard tonight. It's needed. Thank you. Um, any other comment from the public?
Yes. John Gors, you know, 325 Rileywood. Three minutes. No worries. You got it. It'll be under three. There are alternatives out there and there's one real close by that doesn't require 180T pole and it's also a town that's listed as Tree City. It's in New
York City. They're doing it now. Check it out. There's many, many different smaller polls around that city. They were able to get around the unique situation and their cell limited services by using this solution. So
check it out. pole is just quick, dirty, easy. New York's doing it. They're a tree city. Again, there's more than one solution than throwing up a 180 foot pole. Thank you. Thank you.
Any other in public? Moving to online. Anyone like to make comment about the uh telecommunication wireless uh amendments to chapter 135? Seeing none, I move to close public
comment on 2025-09 and move to vote uh on acceptance. I get a second. Thank you. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole opposed.
Okay. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidel in favor. Next ordinance 2025-10 second reading and public hearing for the adoption of reappropriation of
$325,49952. The proceeds of obligations not needed for their original purpose in order to provide for the acquisition of self-contained breathing apparatus sets uh from a bond ordinance. This is the second reading and public hearing. I
move to open the public hearing on this ordinance. Second voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell in favor.
Floor is open for comment. See none in the room, I move to online. Anyone like to comment on 2025-10, the reappropriation of $325,49952 to change its original purpose to buying self-contained breathing apparatus for
the firefighters. Seeing none, I move to close the public hearing and proceed to vote on 2025-10. Can I get a second? I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy
in favor. Oh, I'm sorry. Troy in favor. Yeah. Commissioner Sidelli in favor. I jumped the gun. Um, next up, first reading, ch 2025-11, amend chapter 158 entitled peace and
good order in the first reading. Can I making the motion? Can I get a second? What is What exactly is our motion here? Our motion is to introduce introduce to introduce the the bond the the ordinance amendments.
Um so I'll say it one more time for the record. So it's a so I make a motion to introduce 202511 amending chapter 158 entitled peace and good order in its first reading. Can I get a second?
I'll second. Voting on that motion. Well, before that, um, from a public hearing date purpose, um, the only thing we can actually talk about is by December 31st, we have to
have a hearing or it dies at the table. If it's approved right now, die as a result of the legislative year coming to a close. Yeah. Can you explain that process a little bit more? So, so the burrow, sorry, Sharon, you want to It's got to be advertised. So, you will have a public hearing.
Oh, sure. But just but just in terms of the legislative, it's a calendar year for any sort of legislation. An ordinance requires an introduction first reading as well as a second reading. If no action is taken by the end of the calendar year, of course, prior to that
time would be publication, second reading, uh additional public hearing. It simply expires. Sure. So does that answer your question? So you would have the public hearing if you don't make a motion to adopt or you make
a motion to table it then stops right until you take it off the table or if you don't have a vote to move it forward and we could table it until the end of the year and then then then we would have to reintroduce at all. So that that's the way the process works from a
uh an accusation of skull duggery. Uh this is the introduction the beginning of this process. Uh it is now op if if voted affirmatively it is now opening the conversation. Um and then we will have just like you
witnessed but you know hearing that is another opportunity to that in between now and then there will be other public opportunities to uh give us feedback on it to give written in person.
I wouldn't recommend social media because we don't necessarily see that because it's not directed to us. It's directed to a social media person's audience. So, you can write to the commissioners. You can attend a hearing in person. Uh you can call us. Uh but don't we don't it's not guaranteed we're
going to see something just because you post it. Uh so I am making the motion to approve on first reading the introduction of 202511. Can I get a second? I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole
opposed. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell. I'm in favor. Moving to resolutions under the consent agenda. Resolutions have been placed in the consent agenda by the board of commissioners and are enacted in one
motion. There will be no separate discussion on these items as unless requested by one of the commissioners. Number 117, authorization to pay vouchers. 118 authorization to insert special item of revenue fiscal 2025
local recreation improvement grant. 119 authorization to renew membership in the Camden County Municipal Joint Insurance Fund. Number 120, authorization to approve various appointments to our boards. 121, authorization to approve
appointments to the fire department active membership. Number 122, authorization to approve outdoor marketing graphic display permit application for 25 Kings Highway East. That was a long one. Uh 123, authorization to sign shared services
agreement with the Hadenfield Board of Education for the Municipal Alliance Coordinator Services. Um 124, authorization to sign a renewal of lease agreement with Virtua Health, Inc. 125, authorization to award the bid for tree
and stump removal services. 126, authorization to award the bid of tree stalk and stump removal services. and 127, the authorization to award the bid for stump removal services. I know that
sounds funny. Uh, can I get a motion to approve items 1713 to 127? Motion to approve resolutions 117 through 127. I second. Anyone would like to discuss any of these items?
Nope. Pretty pretty standard stuff. I get a kick out of tree stalk stalk stump and just stump. Some trees fall, some trees are cut, some trees just the stump still sitting there. I don't know about that. Her uh
um voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Oh, I did it again. He's getting late. Yeah, it is. Say that. In favor. Uh in the resolution section
uh resolutions we number 128 the authorization to advertise for request for proposal for general banking services. Our current bank Fton Bank has been our banker for quite a while. We're just seeing what's out there. We're not
unhappy. We just want to a good fiscal governance is to see what's out there. Um, so, uh, I I will make the motion to advertise the request for proposal for general banking services since I'm the commissioner of revenue finance. I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole
in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell in favor. Uh, next I open the floor to public comment on non-aggenda items. You can bring anything you need or want to deis uh to the lectturn and address the
deis. Uh, can I get a motion to open to the public for non-aggenda items? Motion to open to non-aggenda items. Thank you. Second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor.
Commissioner Sel in favor. Comment period is open. Um, hi. Floor is yours. Kathy McGee again um from um Windsor Avenue. in Hadenfield and I'm here now
with a different hat. I'm um representing Mom's Demand Action for Gunsense in America South Jersey local group and I'm one of the co-leads. August 25th to 29th marks Be Smart Week. As students go back to
school, Smart Week reminds adults that they have homework to do, too. Um, we educate public about secure securing um, securely storing guns. We take real steps toward making our homes,
schools, and neighborhoods and communities safer for everyone. Be smart builds on the foundation of the B Smart for Children for Kids program, um, which is public education that's been around for 10 years and it has a lot of impact
as far as saving lives. We do presentations and uh people who have guns are encouraged to store them securely. People that don't have guns are encouraged to spread the word.
And uh advocates, community partners, law enforcement, school boards, gun owners, um non-gun owners, um want to protect kids. And we've all heard the stories from uh different large cities where people aren't securing their guns
and children are getting a hold of them. Um 4.6 million children live in homes in the United States with unsecured guns. We're trying to tell people to tell anyone that they know that they should try to secure their guns. Um we want to
ask the commissioners to help us make the community safe. And what you can do is share the information. I'm going to give you brochures. Um, if you can put something on your website, that would be appreciated. This is something that we
feel strongly about and that's why we've been doing it for so long. So, appreciate your attention. And I'll hand these out now. The easiest two questions to ask your friend's parents. Do you have a gun? And is it secured?
Not so easy for some people, but it should be. Right. It's to non uh it's to take away the stigma of those two questions. Absolutely. Sure. Thank you. Thank you.
Uh, do I need to state my name again? Okay, Matthew Ottabbon. Uh, this will be a lot less volatile than the last one I said, which I I'm going to move on from that. Um what the point I wanted to bring up was we like to talk about how
walkable a city or a burrow I apologize uh Hadenfield is but having spent a lot of time with a close friend of mine who is wheelchair bound I can tell you that it is not a walkable city for everyone along Kings Highway
alone there are there are no curb cuts and there are some curbs that are up five six inches. Um, I think that, you know, that that's something that could be made a little bit more accessible even if just on one side of the street and at intersections.
I think that that could be something to look into if you know you guys could find the time for that. Oh, yeah. You're absolutely right. No, thanks for comment. Uh, Sharon, can you give a status update on the Kings Highway and Washington Avenue cross path of a packup?
Yes. So, I was just with the engineers that are designing that um last week, I believe. Um they are about halfway through their design. It is to make all of the crosswalks from Patco to Kings Highway handicap
accessible, including the one at Patco, the the intersection of Washington and Paco. Really tall curb. Yeah. Um and additional additionally it is changing the traffic lights to have the
pedestrian the updated pedestrian um signaling and addressing we are currently looking for the pattern to bring to the commissioners and to um HPC but also starting to address some of the
sidewalk issues throughout the whole downtown. That's phase one. And then phase two would be finishing that and addressing some of the other areas. You say pattern, do you mean crosswalk pattern? No, the sidewalk itself. Thank you. Yes. No, we've been chipping
away at it, so to speak. Um the last crosswalk work right by the high school. Uh next one is PCO and then from there it's En Lee Avenue, right? The Avenue will be worked on after they finish the curbing at
Evergreen. Okay, great. Thank you. Yep. Thank you for the comment. It It's a It's a never- ending process, Herb. Herb Hes West Redmond Avenue before the night turns to the next day. Thank you for the
transparency and the openness of this meeting. I got a little discouraged with the last commission. When I say the last commission, the the last set of elected officials, some of whom seem to want to not answer
questions or shut down discussion. So, even though I'm not in agreement with all of your positions, I do appreciate the work that you're putting in and I just want to say that. Thanks, thanks. Sure. See no more in person. I moved to online. Anyone like to make a comment on
anything non-aggenda or agenda items? I is is yearly. Is that is she trying to raise her hand or just Oh, just a thumbs up. Okay. All right. You have access to the
counting in seven seconds. Okay. Can you share that afterward? All right. See no one who would like to speak. I move to close public comment on non-aggenda items. Can I get a second? I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole
in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell in favor. Uh, next up, uh, the commissioners are going into close session for, uh, legis I'm sorry, uh, help me with the words s because it's so
late. Uh, we got to get an update on a couple of, u lawsuits. Yeah, I mean, given the lateness of the hour, we can just do some writing if you No, we're good. I'd like to continue on. Thank you. Sleep dinner, whatever.
So, I I'll make a motion to go into close session. Uh, but be to actually to go into close session. I know. Can I get a second? I'll second. Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell
in favor. Before we go into closed, there will be no action taken when we come out of close. We will come out of close and move to adjourn. Uh but before we go into close, we usually afford uh opportunity for uh the reporters to ask
us questions before we go. So you don't have to stick around till afterwards in the parking lot and hang out and just talk us. Could you come up? Thank you. Yeah, please. It's just it's late. We just want to hear you. I just want to be able to hear you. Okay. So,
but Zoom can't. Oh, understood. They can know. And no one can project more than me and I always use the mic. Yeah, for sure. Listen, stage training. Uh S, I guess my first question is for you. Um some of the language in the ordinance about peace and good order.
Also, uh kind of legislates speech as well. Um I guess I'm just curious, do you feel like there's any risk of an ACLU lawsuit or any other thing for any part of this that would seek to limit um it it codifies speech in here. And
forgive me for flipping past the telecom agreement. Um, loud, boisterous, threatening, abusive, insulting, or indecent language. I don't think that regulates speech in any way in lang language. I think it regulates speech. Can you tell me why it doesn't?
I think it does. But can you tell me why it doesn't if you don't think it does? Because to me it seems primmaacci. It says that it is prohibiting certain kinds of language which which is expression and therefore a first amendment issue. I I don't I I don't think it does. I I hear that you say you don't think it
does. I'm asking if you can qualify why you do not think it does. I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for, Matt. I don't think it does. What What do you want me to say? I just want to understand why you don't think it does. It You're just saying like you don't think it does doesn't explain to me if Did you write the ordinance?
Did you tell me what you think is violative of the First Amendment? I I think it says it's the it's the subjectivity of describing what is engaging in speech or language or that is loud, boisterous, threat, loud,
abusive, indecent, insulting, any of that stuff. You know, first amendment speech is limited by time, place, and manner. But typ are you allowed to to yell fire in a crowded city? Time, place, and manner. But that's not a but that's not a public outdoor space for to be fair. I'm going to just interrupt for a second. I'm going to actually read
it into the record because you're stopping. Uh, from dust to dawn, sleep or proactive protractedly lounge on the seats or benches or other public areas or engage in loud, boisterous, threatening, abusive, insulting, or indecent language or engage in any
disorderly conduct or behavior tending to breach the public peace, including the obstruction of any public area or portion thereof with personal property at any time. Right. So first amendment has always been limited in time, place and manner
but it is not usually a given that in the public space that you can be found to be you know subjectively loud, insulting, indecent. It doesn't say a decibel level. It doesn't say what counts as insulting to whom. It doesn't say what counts. And I will say you the question you got
an answer. I I did but I don't think it's a satisfactory one. And I'll note that the next thing we'll have to go we'll have to just move on. Pal, did you write the ordinance? Did I I helped to draft it? Yes, I assisted. Was it okay? Was it based on anything other than your own?
Please. Sure. Give me the courtesy matter of trying to answer the question. Okay. I am not the sole author of that. I participated in a draft with many others. So, can you tell me who they were? If you want to ascribe those words to me, that's incorrect. I I'm just learning. We're all just
learning tonight, right? So, can you tell me who if it if in addition to you, who wrote the ordinance? Any others on this day? So, you're saying you and the commissioners collaboratively drafted the ordinance? Some, not all. Okay. I'm not trying to pin you down on
it, but I'm just trying to understand. So, you and some of the commissioners drafted the ordinance. Did other attorneys participate in it? Okay. So, you are the attorney who participated in this and the rest of it was the commissioners, some of whom, but not all of whom. And I think I can take from your meeting and from Commissioner
Cole's comments that she did not participate in this. Okay. So, I'm just I'm wanted to hear your opinion on that threshold. Thank you for that. Um for and I I I think that's mischaracterized. You did participate in the conversation. Yes, I did, but not in the editing the
language. My position has been that we can solve this administratively, not through legislation. So, I did not participate in editing the language, but I was part of the conversation. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Um the next question I want to get uh is the idea that you know homelessness is an economic problem
first and that's from Michael Callahan at the at the DCA. Um, so there is an understanding at least implicit in the people who study this work on this for the state of New Jersey that uh yeah I think it did just cut so I let this
down. Uh that that this is an economic problem and it it will worsen as economic circumstances worsen. Um you heard from a lot of people who are experts working in the field on this who are you know I counted dozens of comments from people who are concerned
enough speak on it. Uh do you think there's any economic redress that that the bureau can look for and if you think there's any parallel between the unwillingness and the fight so far against affordable housing happening in this town and the now fight against the
behavior of house people you see any connection there I don't even know how to begin to answer that question Matt because you've answered it by asking the question I I I won't answer that question you don't see this problematic that had
trouble with you know in un people that experts say is attributable to economic in the same town that's having this problem that that people said is it's an unsightly sort of a thing or using or troubling for their children also don't want to build more housing that people
with lesser means could live in that would obiate the circumstances that's causing the problems they find so distressing I think the takeaway from tonight, if I may, is that affordable housing is a very complex problem that I I don't know if you can pinpoint one problem. Say
that's the root cause of the problem. Um, so I mean there are some financial constraints associated with it. I would also say that we have more affordable housing right now than Hadenfield has ever has made more of an effort to acquire it than you know any previous
administration at least the last four years. So you know we're meeting our obligations and uh you know in some cases and then some. So, I think there's a good faith effort to try to meet the requirements of affordable housing and
do it a way where people can enjoy the burrow and and um you know feel at home in the burrow as evidenced by the the brand new you know building development right behind us deficit hundreds of thousands that's not all responsibility but we're talking
about four to six feet the existing understanding around homelessness going back to Dr. runners were United Healthcare and the city of Canada donation of healthcare providers was if you can put someone in a unit of some kind with wraparound services for six months that's generally the accepted way
to get them off the streets. So if we have four to six people that we heard about the chief and everybody else that are the issue, you don't have to build hundreds or dozens or whatever else to deal with the need. But if you found a way to build dedicated housing somewhere, it seems like you could with
the combination of social workers and all this stuff instead of criminalizing some of these behaviors, which we don't know the legality of, but I heard from other legal experts that that that it is not legal with language that says, do you feel like that would be a different approach and you don't see any parallels
between having problems with people's behavior and and fighting so hard to not build? Well, you you've editorialized the word is fighting. So, you were painting us into the corner to answer a question you've already come to the
conclusion of. No comment is the answer. Sure. Well, and and it's it's it's verbal jousting. So I I well it it is a little bit because I will say that uh your your premise
as you went from one point to the other uh is that you keep using the word you that you have a responsibility. No are the community and then you have to define the community. See this is how it
gets complex really quickly. The U is the three of us. The community has to then be defined. Is it only a Hadenfield problem? I we just heard for 3 hours it's not just a Hatenfield problem. So
then what's the next level up? The tri community, the municipalities that all touch each other? No. Is it then at the county level? Is it at the state level? the same mandates for affordable housing
that for years we have not fought. So I I would categorically disagree with you that we fight affordable housing. I uh again you will try to drag me into an argument. I gave you an answer. I do not
think this community fights affordable housing. I do not think this community fights affordable housing. That is a present tense statement. Thank you. People on your business as a realtor.
Okay. Uh and I guess the the next question is do you guys know how the folks made their way down from Collinswood trespass ordinance to other other towns like Hen Township intermediately banning sleeping in cars overnight in November to you guys the
current existing body now putting forth some sort of legal action that you that you that you heard from people in numbers tonight that that is unpopular potentially illegal and you guys head with it. Did you not if you if you acknowledge that it's not just an Adill
problem that only has so many resources bigger than that. Do do you notice the connection of how things kind of go all the way down and that this isn't necessarily going to change circumstances of the people that are causing you guys this public, you know,
problem that you're experiencing heard from people about tonight. Anybody want to tackle that? as I can dear. The way I see it, homelessness is a regional problem. It's a regional problem.
And when one municipality creates a legislation like this, it forces people to move over to the next town or the next town or the next town. So, we're never truly solving the problem. we're getting people off the streets and putting them into stable housing. What we're doing instead is
just hiding it from our view because we don't want to see it. So, I view this as so I I mentioned when I was speaking that I I am in touch with my Calhan, by the way, at the state. I'm in touch with Rob whose last name I will never be able to pronounce from the county. Several
nonprofits I know you know. um they're all willing to help and they were surprised that Hadenfield had never reached out for help because services are available and these are services we pay into that we've never taken advantage of and I can't wrap my mind
around that why we're we're subsidizing essentially services that Hadenfield would never have like bothered to pick up the phone and request help or into getting into program and the enaction of previous administrations
is now resulting in the fact that these services will be more expensive for us to now sign into, but that's the cost. That's the cost of an action. Um I I I don't know if I'm very clearly um answering your question, but yes, homelessness is a regional problem. It
is not unique to Hadenfield. Thankfully, our number is in the single digits, six people. And in my conversation with the Council of Churches, um, Reverend Wayne, I'm sorry, I'm not in that denomination, so I don't know the correct way to address someone in that situation, but his first
name was Wayne. Um, and he and I had a very good conversation, and his point of view on this was that his building, his church, the Methodist church, is used on Sundays. What he would like to see is it being used Monday through Friday. They have room,
they have bathrooms, they want to provide shelter. And so I I look at the opportunities we have in in Hadenfield. We don't even have to go very far. It's we're talking about six people. So to provide stable
housing, at least stable enough until they can get back on their feet or get connected to the right services to support them. We have that here. I just don't think we have the political will to make it happen. But the resources are absolutely available to
us. And for some reason, I cannot understand. We have never as a bureau reached out and asked for help on this from from the programs that we quite frankly subsidize with our own taxes. I don't know
any of you feel like building or creating access for a start. Well, it's not it doesn't anymore. We don't have a visitors that could become a priority for this administration.
We'll take it under adisement. It's a great It's an idea that was presented tonight to us. We'll take it. Yeah. You finish your thought. No, we'll take it under advisement. It's it's it's one of the many competing priorities that we deal with all the time. discuss, compromise, and come up
with a plan to a problem. And then the last question is, you guys said you came into tonight wanting to hear from the public, wanting to hear feedback, wanted to get the input. Um, I think you heard overwhelmingly what the input was. Did that affect your
decisions uh in voting tonight? Did that affect how you proceed forward? You heard about the possible expiry of this introduced ordinance? It falls on technicality. Um, and you guys went ahead with it by majority vote. Did you hear anything tonight that you wanted to
hear or any stuff you're looking to hear? You said you wanted public feedback. I go first. I mean, nothing here surprised me tonight. Okay. Um, I mean, you hear uh both pros and cons. Um, or yeah, I guess probably for
and against. Um, but there's a scores of emails in here that are for and against for the same reasons that were articulated tonight. So, um, I think as David said earlier, it's a good starting point. Um, and, uh, I think we'll we'll take, um,
some of the resources that were shared here tonight and some ideas that were shared and, uh, take a step forward on it. But um you know inaction is not an option and I think we have to have a bias for action
to actually put these things in place and start moving it forward. So a prevent tonight is the starting point for all that in my opinion. Yeah. I mean I I I said it the same way. I'll just kind of say it a different way. Uh
there's an expression what the plans are nothing. Planning is everything. I heard a lot of plans but not a lot of planning. Uh and in the absence of planning, the absence of the community, the greater area, uh coming together to solve a problem.
We're duty bound to protect Hadamfield. And it is a last resort option, one that we don't even want to see. But we can talk about a problem to death or we can act on a problem. And I I'm encouraged that I'm encouraged but
skeptical to be honest because it is a protracted problem that has not had easy solutions. I'm encouraged with the energy that I heard tonight. Uh, I'd love to see movement on the
solutions to homelessness, but that doesn't take away our responsibility to the community to the in the absence of any action that we still have protection. Repeat your questions. I'm sorry. I
Oh, it's right. church having I was shocked truly. I I I posted on Facebook when the agenda went up earlier in the week. I honestly I was
camping with my kids and I had like two bars of reception. I was like, "Let me just let people know this is happening so they can show up." Never in my wildest dreams did I think we were going to fill up every seat and have people in the standing room, let
alone people from outside of Hadenfield, our neighboring municipalities paying attention and coming in to share their opinion because again they recognize we are neighbors. So I was shocked at how how the audience spoke up and you know
we heard from both sides not at the same scale. That's important to note. And we keep using the word uptick. Six people. All right. We we please as press be very mindful about that word uptick, right? Like we want to be really
data driven here. And so yes, I was very surprised um pleasantly. But again, I don't the community has made themselves very clear. I don't think we have the political will
to follow the community's desires. And that's really disappointing. I'll just make one observation that you can report on. Our regular process of agenda posting is Friday by 12:00. It's part of our communication plan we've been discussing. It's a practice that
has been put in since I've been mayor. that commit that the agenda with the item was posted Tuesday evening, Wednesday, affording anyone to then forward it along to bring
greater visibility into it. But it happened because it is an important issue and we decided to post it as early as possible to get as much visibility as possible so that we could get as many
opinions as possible in the room and for that we succeeded. But you didn't post the full language of the ord the full language. uh readability. It was posted with
but specific language of the ordinance about what amendments because we we still have work to do to get the entire packet. This isn't the only issue in this packet. We No. No. And so when you say about why wasn't the language the we're working on the
agenda. This is one ordinance in the that specifically about we weren't finished. But I asked you if you said that would be released and you told me it wouldn't be released. It wouldn't come out until tonight. Then that is not what I said. I will disagree
with you on that. We did not I did not I would never say it would come out on the day of. The promise of this administration has been 12 o'clock on Friday. It posted about an hour a little over an hour late. The the draft agenda was posted. The
language of the ordinance when you and I spoke and I asked you what are the amendments you told me were not going to be available until tonight. No, I said they weren't going to be available till we post it on Friday. Well, we'll disagree on that, Matt. Okay.
No. Okay. There is nothing that changed. It published on Friday at 2:00. Not the specific language. The specific language of the amended changes posted at 2:00 on Friday.
I am disagreeing with you. I did not say that and I wouldn't because our promise is 12:00 on Friday for all the words that we will discuss at a Monday meeting are available by then. And then we were two hours late.
I don't even remember you asking me when it would come. Oh, you know, you can argue with me. I've given you an answer. All right. And that's fine. We can disagree. No, we could disagree.
I can only say it came out at 2 o'clock on Friday. Thank you. It's not It should be working. I think Is that good? Well, we want to hear it on Zoom.
And you're not as boommy as he is. So, how's this? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um my question is actually thanks. It's been a long meeting. It ran out. Hello. No, just talking the other one.
Okay. Um my question is for Chief Cutler, if I may. So you had said that there was 148 calls in the last 237 days pertaining to homeless people. Okay. Um
103 of those calls was that four four homeless people or from four individuals calling all four individuals. So 103 calls about four individual unhoused people
arrested on various people. Okay. Um do police officers have to report and respond to every call they get? Yes. Okay. And do you have statistics on how many arrests were made after those
calls? 25 arrest for those. Okay. um 25 arrests on the 103 calls about the four people. So you arrested four people
25 times. Okay. for trespassing for drugs for shop. Last one was she a what? I'm sorry. She had heroin.
She had heroin on her. Okay, got it. those they were they weren't arrested just punsies. I know there were Yeah, I was just curious as to the process with calls and and everything and I just wanted to clarify that for
the record. Thank you. Um for the commissioners, what is and this isn't about the uh the homelessness issue at hand. What is the $84,000 um local recreation improvement grant going to be used for?
That was a grant we received. Are these off? I think they're all Yeah. We'll just talk. Oh, that's uh it was a grant we received for um playground equipment to be put down at RERfield. Okay. I think that's all I had. Thank
you. Sure. still ask her to unmute. Can I just clarify one thing about the 25 arrest? They weren't necessarily custodial arrests. when we issue somebody a ticket
for for ordinance, it's actually considered an arrest, but it's not a nonustodial arrest. So, I don't have the difference between custodial arrest and non-custodial arrest, but we issued 25 sumances on those I can tell you
that arrest. What is a custodial arrest? We actually arrest you custody. Uh there are some arrests problem I would say the most except shop because you have to be fingerprinted by state statute but for a trespass or something
or arrest we could just write you a summon or take and let you that's considered arrestable not not off Seeing Abigail did not mute. Uh I will move to go into close session. Second.
Voting on that motion. Commissioner Cole in favor. Commissioner Troy in favor. Commissioner Sidell in favor. Thank you everyone. Again reminder we will not take action. We will come out and adjourn.