out loud. >> Okay. In accordance with the open public's meeting act notice, this meeting has been sent to the retrospect and posted on the bulletin board in the burrow hall. The first item on the agenda is the public comment period. If anyone would like to speak to the
commissioners, now is the time. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to the commissioners? >> Your one and only chance that you >> Nobody on Zoom. Okay, moving on. It's a wonderful thing. >> It's the Eagle game.
>> Yeah, that too. Okay, next item is to discuss the next steps following our new master plan. We have Matt and Jeff with us from Penoni. um they were with us the entire time with the subcommittee and then with the planning board and the
hearings. Um there were some new ideas that came from that master plan and I believe what we're going to so the idea is that we would move forward pursuing some of those new ideas um in 2026. So I will turn it over to them and they
can kind of guide you along at what we're looking at moving forward with next year. >> Okay. Uh thank you. We did bring uh some materials we can pass out. Uh really it's the last section of the master plan. If you are familiar with the document, this is uh our section on
recommendations and next steps. It uh has recommendations for each of the four subject areas which the code was broken or the code the plan was broken up into. Oh, >> I have one more. Yeah.
>> I can look in the document. Okay. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So, you see and you see the little icons on that first page, that red circle of the house. >> There's two documents. You should have two documents. >> Okay. >> Then here's the other one. >> There you go. >> Here's the other one.
>> Thank you. >> Yep. >> You're good. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, that icon is, if you're not familiar with the the plan, uh one of the four areas. So, the first one is housing diversity. And uh just to go through them all uh that follows into
resiliency, circulation and finally downtown economic vitality. So for each of those we have uh laid out bullet points for the goals for achieving the um objectives uh within and that's based in both the public engagement process as
well as previous uh plans and reports. And then following each of those goals, we have action items which we have recommended uh as the steps you can take to get to those goals and achieve the objectives. So um anything you want to add before we dive into it? >> Um in addition to a pretty thorough
analysis set of analyses that um a lot of that happened behind the scenes and and in coordination with the master plan subcommittee over a course of >> two and a half years, two months, two years, a >> very long time a little too in in detail sometimes.
Yep. So, uh, we can leave you with these examples here, but some that we we recommended maybe targeting one each from each section. Um, but we did want to have a conversation with you first as to what you thought were the highest priorities. Uh, I can I can start the conversation. I know some of the things
we've heard were uh discourage the tear downs of existing older homes if that's something you want to look into from housing diversity, for example. Um circulation we thought was something that uh could um by uh looking at a circulation plan element which is a
little bit bigger of a of a lift. Um you can address more of the issues at once within that new um document all at once. So that's something else we might recommend. But um just wanted to leave it with you guys first and listen to hear what you thought uh you'd like us to address and we can come up with a
plan from there. Before we move forward with that, um before we move forward with that, there's just they are generalizing the ideas and paths move forward. There was a couple of very specific ideas that came out of
the the uh committee that we want to talk about because those would be the first things that we would really um touch on. Um, one, if you've spent any time in Hadenfield for any number of years, you've heard the McMansionization and that's been going back for 20ome
years that I've been here. Um, one of the ideas to address that and to also at the same time help assist with storm water future storm water issues is the idea of having two different imperous coverage
limits. one is a limit for existing, you know, any existing homes. Um, however, if you're going to tear the home down, you then have a separate imperous coverage and those are smaller in what you're allowed on any lot size. So,
therefore, it discourages the tear down. Um, one step further we may want to take it is by looking at certain size additions. If you're going to increase the size of the home 25% or 50% then that also then puts you into this next
limit. Um that was one thing. The other thing about tearowns that we were looking to address, which also helps um add to the type of homes that we have in town, is looking at some of the larger homes that we have like over in the
Mount Vernon section um and looking to see about changing them into duplexes or triplexes or something along that nature, a multif family home with only minor um adjustments to the exterior of
the home. So therefore, you're keeping the character of the home except to make for modifications for entry and exit for each of the units. But other than that, any of the other work is done in uh internally and not affecting the external. Now, the issue we have to look
at there is parking. It's the same as the a u the auxiliary dwelling units. Um looking at where we may want to in, you know, allow those since we already happen to know that there are some in town. Um so to kind of look and and see
where that happens and dealing with the parking along all of those issues is what we would be addressing too. >> So and and the the way that mechanism would work the first thing we would recommend were change would be changes to the definitions of certain housing
types and also uh zoning changes v via ordinance amendments. So, we we've we've made some suggestions uh on how to do that on pages 125 through 130 of the master plan. >> One of the things that Sharon just said
was tear downs. And I don't really think of a house as a tear down because I know the games that have been played about, you know, keeping three walls, >> you know, keeping one wall. Uh it's changing the footprint of the existing home.
For me, I don't care if your kids gets torn all the way down. I just care if it has footprints changed because that's the grandfather part. People get bigger, right? They they they go to the impervious coverage limits. >> Yes. >> And I really do like to I sat through
some of a lot of plan boards. Frank, you did a good job, you know, keeping that conversation moving. uh the the two-tiered saying I if if you want to change it, it has to go smaller because you're going to have different side
setbacks, bulk coverage, backyard setback coverage limits versus what you have here. Um the other thing that I just heard was encouraging in a different part of town duplexing and triplexing existing properties. Yes,
>> I'm thinking of the 84 master plan was to kind of stop that because almost all Washington Avenue had gotten carved up, you know, into duplexes and triplexes. So, did you take into account the number of times or the the the the
concentration of that type of work in other neighborhoods? because I think that was probably a failing of the previous before 84 plan was one street just took it right on the chin >> and and you what Sharon just said a few minutes ago about we went too into
detail with certain things that was one of those things we looked at each district and what each housing type was and what could accommodate more we still have some of that data which we could pull out and use >> they're just the things that are concerning me uh in making those changes
>> uh that's certainly a concern that expressed early and often throughout the process. And I think one of the the constraints to recognize that with these so we missing middle housing inreasing the density
a lot of the constraints. So there there was a lot of concern that well if you permit these these new housing types they're just going to explode all over the place. Developers are going to commit. you're still going to be really constrained by the existing
standards and to fit a lot of those new types. You really need that's not there. So that would still allow the the pro to have a lot of control because you would a lot of those potential applicants would still need to
come from the boards to get relief >> the bulk requirements >> and it's not just bulk requirements breath you don't have the sky either. So you have you made no recommendations to change heights. >> No. >> All right. >> And and the other thing too is, >> you know, I I understand you don't have
an issue with people tearing down a house if they keep the footprint. There's there are there are a number of homes that are getting to the the point where they would be considered historic in town. And so the idea is if you're constantly allowing people to tear down, you're
going to lose the character that this town has, which a lot of towns don't have because we have such a variety of architectural types throughout town. >> So, and that's one of the things too, whereas we don't want people coming in tearing homes down to build up these
duplexes or triplexes when you have homes that are existing that could be turned into them. My home, I've got an 18,800 foot home on Potter Street. it was a duplex at some point in time, >> you know. So, I mean, it it certainly can be done to almost anything. Um, and
that's part of the idea is by allowing it in existing structures potentially, you're trying to keep what's there, the character of what's there, but still allowing these types in to kind of seamlessly come into neighborhoods and
without a big disruption. >> Right. And two of the three of us have a star code. So, uh, I do. >> Yeah. So, uh, I I didn't mean to cavalerely say just tear it down for the space. >> I get it. >> But how do we encourage people to keep older homes
>> besides just the the size? You know, >> I I can I can think of spot spot historic. Is there any encouragement in the master plan to actually voluntarily go put your home on the register for a tax break or some sort of leniency in
other areas or anything like that? >> We recommend that that be explored further. That's as far as we took it with this story. >> Oh, you may >> but that's outside the purview of the planning board. >> Well, it was outside the purview of the master plan. We were going after the four elements. >> Sure.
um you actually have somebody that may be coming in front of you on that very topic in the next couple of months if they put it the letter together and present it to you because that step actually takes starts in planning board um >> to put their home on the register.
>> There's a whole process and you guys actually have to formally approve it. >> Yeah, I think >> yeah. So um >> but any activity you do to further that you now have backup within the master plan that says encourage programs and policies that protect and enhance historic property.
>> Okay. Yeah. Because I mean that is that is the other knock the town has is not every home's worth some are far gone. Understand that >> not worth saving, >> right? It's not worth saving from a
historical significance standpoint, from a building quality standpoint. You know, I I just think of the 60s and early 70s material buildings. You know, a lot of them should just go, right? Uh but I want to encourage I I I really did
appreciate the encouragement of keeping your house instead of tearing it down. Um, and if you did go that route, you were locked in, you know, to a different requirement inside that zone. So, I I
really did appreciate that, too. Uh, I just wanted to make sure there from a loophole standpoint, there wasn't a height change. That was the thing that worked me the most. >> So, if I may, I think that's an important clarification is that most homes, but mine included, are existing non-conforming. And I was I wouldn't say
most but a lot or existing non-conforming. So even if you were to get around it and say I want to keep the you know two walls, three walls, whatever requirements are and just build it in the same footprint, it's still an existing non-conforming house. So I think that I'd rather see language
that's a little stronger around you have to keep the walls, you have to keep like you can't you can't you know destroy the structure >> and if you do then it's like it goes down significantly. Then it goes to the second stand because then you lose the, you know, the incentive to to do anything with that. >> I like that.
>> Similar to if it was a fire loss. >> Yep. >> A little bit of a break. >> Yeah. Because that's currently dictated in our ordinance what's considered, you know, a home still standing. And so we can look at just revising that. I don't
think there's anything in the MLUL that would dictate that that we couldn't change. We'll have to look into that. some of your questions like your guarantees and stuff. >> Is that what the ordinance is doing? >> Well, but there we're not near there. That's the point. So, this is this is
coming to you saying these are the ideas making sure you the three of you are in agreement that you want them to start pursuing that. And so, the next steps would be they would be, you know, they would start looking at how to write those ordinance changes and bring them back to you, >> you know, and then, you know, get some
input from planning board on those during the process. you know, before we get too far down the road. >> Now, you had mentioned if you did it under resiliency, you could get a lot done at the same time. Could you explain, give us an example? >> Oh, that was the circulation plan. >> That's what I mean. Yeah. Circulation. >> Yep. Do that. I can start.
>> Sure. >> You're going to have to move that to you. >> So, switching, we're talking about switching gears over to the circulation plan. >> Well, just in how because it seems that like that's the next natural progression when you go macro from the individual home to kind of like the block. >> Sure. So, so circulation is a um a
little bit of its own um own beast. Um but we we in the the master plan we looked at uh existing bicycle infrastructure, existing pedestrian infrastructure um as well as connections to the PCO station. So yeah, we we it's
it's again in this master plan we we scratch the surface. there's a separate uh statutory master plan element, the circulation plan element that we recommended that um is an opportunity to to dive in a little bit deeper to to some of the things that we did the initial research on. Um but we felt it
was worth pursuing a little bit more, >> but that would not address the the home size issue. So, >> okay, >> it's just something else we can do from another. But but I think the resiliency is also where that there there's kind of the the trade-off where where um so in
in trying to limit the amount of impervious coverage that to to deal with storm water issues and other other climate change related hazards as well as just natural hazards. um you know, you're you're coming in conflict with the desire to to to build more and um a
lot of times that there's not a desire to to allow for for more building, but in some cases there were there are and that is a a series of trade-offs that would need to be looked into a little bit further of where do you want to have potentially increasing impervious uh increasing building coverage or is that
something that is not desired from a from housing at all because it's certainly that is going to going to create more issues from the resiliency side of things. The reason I asked about circulation was something else Sharon had said and that was if you start building duplexes and
triplexes then parking becomes a problem and it's also part a potential problem right but then the other potential problem is that if pvious coverage an easy one is start allowing street parking which then screws up circulation because what we're trying to encourage
is bikes pedestrian traffic and more cars on the street doesn't sound parked, doesn't sound safe for bicyclists, doesn't sound safe for pedestrians as much as off streetet parking is. Um, so how do you balance those kind of almost
like competing competing needs? >> Look at what's more appropriate for which different part of town because in some locations parking on the street can be safer for pedestrians and people off streets to act as that buffer. So it's it's not appropriate for every part of town, but that would be part of our our
process is to review that. Oh, was say as if like the street's wide enough to support parking versus not. I'm thinking or if it has how many uh driveways it has per block, things like that. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. And >> where the other issue just too is how many streets do we already have parking
street? Because while we, you know, would prefer parking not to be on the street, we do have overnight parking, you know, permits because families have a lot of cars nowadays. So, it might be one of those things that We kind of have to
look to see whether the argument of on street parking and again it can be an allowable you know can be this can be some of these things that we're looking at for more as conditional use. >> So you know that can be something that can be looked at and worked out through
as part of that conditional use too. And parking is also going to be a constraint going back to the constraint on on uh developing these these alternative types of of housing typologies. So you still need to meet you know residential site improvement standard minimums for parking. So that's going to be a severe constraint on even
if you had if you met all the other bulk standards. It's going to be a challenge to >> become a duplex. >> Right. >> Sure. I feel like I'm monopolizing this conversation. One thing I want to ask about, it's not so much about the duplexes, but the ADUs,
I think there's actually some merit, probably greater merit to the ADUs in my opinion. Um, just because in a lot of cases, if you if you subdivide a house and you make it, you know, two houses of of uh half the size instead of 4,000
feet, it's 2,000 square feet. A 2,000 foot home that you've subdivided and now leasing out is still very expensive. Whereas an ADU, I think in a lot of cases would be either your child that has graduated or done whatever and like kind of and then move moves back to your
your home, but they don't want to live in the home and you don't want them to live in the home, but like it's fine if they live in the backyard. Um, you know, or your in-laws or your parents, whatever the case may be. And I mean, there are some houses in like um Robin Potter's house had a full apartment
above her garage. Um, house. >> Yeah. House. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Which >> Dr. Miner's house on Gill. >> So I mean at some point like they existed. I don't think they ever called them like you know bedrooms or apartments or something. They probably turned a blind eye and called them
something else. But I think there's some merit to that. But I just know from a zoning standpoint you're going have to look at attached versus detached. attach is easier just because you know if you're converting a room or something like that it's kind of easier to do but
you're not going to be able to do any ADUs in most cases because you don't have you're just increasing impervious coverage so the only thing you're left with is allowing people to make in different areas of town that second story allowing them put a second story on the garage
>> and that's and that second story would be like where I live I think it's got to be 28 feet max or something like that you'd have to increase that to a reasonable height where you could have a an apartment on top of that or a ADU on top of that and it it's not like you know something out of like a cartoon
where like they're hitting their head on the ceiling or something. I mean you have to kind of give some some relief there but I think that actually my personal opinion would probably help a little bit more so than the um than
the um the duplexes. But I also know at the corner of um Lincoln and not center the next one down. >> Chestnut where they did have that duplex there. If you remember that was it's the one that caught on fire.
>> Yeah. It wasn't Chestnut. >> Walnut. Walnut. Yeah. Um that's the one that caught on fire. >> Duplex back. So they had to subdivide it for two houses. >> Yeah. So I think that there should be I don't know if that needs to be a laser focus but at least amending it that if it was a duplex you can put it back to
being a duplex >> is where we have a lot of duplexes and that was one of the conversations in the subcommittee was you know looking at where they were and size and should they be allowed back. Um, the other thing with ADUs is
we have a resident that's come to us asking whether they're allowable yet because of the master plan change. We're like, "No, they're not." But she's it's it's a reverse situation. She wants to create it for herself and then be able to rent out her house to somebody. So,
you're going to be dealing with multiple different kinds of situation. It's not always bringing your It's not always having an in-law suite, you know. It's potentially of it is being able to downsize to a smaller thing on your property without having to
um give up your property. >> That's something we heard in the engagement process too is want people to give have the option to age in place within the town through various stages of life stay in their property. So this was something we came up with to allow that to happen. very early in the process, even before we started thinking about specifics, the two things we heard
probably the most were um the lack of housing options to age in place and the lack of opportunity if you were uh in your uh 20s or 30s to be able to to afford to move here. >> You grew up here and wanted to come back to start your life, didn't have a lot of
options for that. >> Sure. You that's my number one issue is people being able to age in place. I think the best thing we could do for our community is to actually encourage people to stay in our community. Uh >> there's something to an ADU. Also, I
mean, Frank made this point really well and that it's like it becomes multi-generational living. We actually looked into getting an ADU for my mother-in-law. um we figured out a different plan in the meantime, but I think it's a really good idea to, you know, maybe it starts out with your kid and then eventually you switch spots and
then maybe you're aging there and then your child now has a family and like I think it's a really good idea. So that again is something if we were to pursue an ordinance amendment, ordinance change that would be we would write something into >> and and we did dive in a little bit to
the specifics. Actually we we talked about it quite extensively but then ultimately pulled back from having those specifics in the master plan. um as ultim ultimately decided we'll we'll keep the more general this is something that we want to see in the burrow and then have it decided that this next step
would be the where we revisit and and talk about the actual details because there are some some as as we've discussed here tonight there's a lot of a lot of minor issues to to overcome even just thinking about the difference between an ADU of someone geared towards someone who is looking to age in place
versus um someone a little bit younger so if you're uh older age in place typically you want to be ground floor um have a lot a lot more accessibility issues um that you want to be considering. So that's just to say there's a lot of fine print small details to work out with figuring out
what is appropriate. How does that fit into to the specifics of the ordinance? >> Because Frank, for example, over in your neighborhood, if they not do that, they get to put a second story on. Maybe they >> Yeah. >> You know, and then they're giving up having a garage.
>> Most people don't put their cars in the garage anyway. So, >> don't talk about that >> because they're multigenerational. They got all their kids junk in the garage. >> And it was built like when you had like a horse carriage. >> Yeah. Right. It doesn't fit. Chevy Colorado doesn't really fit in there real well. >> Yeah.
>> Um, >> and from a timeline standpoint, I mean, we all ran like, you know, May of last year, and one of the things that we were asked, I think, at one of the debates was, well, what's one of the most important things of the term? It's like creating ordinances based off of a
master plan that will eventually get passed. And then that got passed. Uh it probably will take what? Two years, two and a half, three to get through all of them. All of them. >> Well, >> wait.
>> You're not gonna That's the conversation tonight. Where where's the priority? >> What is the priority? You know, the priorities would be looking at ADUs and, you know, potentially a second layer of impervious coverage and whether or not there's a
conditional use for certain things. Circulation While it is important, I think those things are like the primary based on the input we got through all of it. I think those are the primary things that we should focus on. >> That is going to take them six months of
next year or whatever depending again how much public input we get on the process as we're going through the process. Um you know that's going to take a period of time. Um the idea is to try and have those in place next year at some point. You know, preferably
>> earlier rather than later, but at least have them done by the end of the year. Then you can look at the next chunk you want to do in your m the master plan is your is your plan for 10 years. It is to be your overarching, you know, ideas of
how you want the town um developed, which is why we felt the 1984 had to be relooked at because so much had changed. So, we had to figure out what really was the focus and we had seen how the town had had changed and we wanted to be able
to um see if we needed to address some of those things. So, that's that. And so, >> the only reason I mentioned circulation was the parking. Yeah, have more people need more. >> And I agree that should be something in the the the nearer term that you look at. But I do agree that if you want the
big make big splash, address the major issues that people are concerned about, these two ordinance changes would be the best fast near-term >> well, it's the emergent issue. >> Yeah. Is is >> Yeah. >> Encouraging a different behavior than
exists right now. >> Oh, yes. I >> I don't disagree. That's fine. >> Yeah. Then we could pace out the others after that. >> And I would just say don't expect to get every recommendation done in the next four years. >> Okay. No, no, that's good. Oh, I thought
it I thought >> No, it's it master plan easy because I wanted to hit the punch line like >> Yeah. Yeah. >> After Crowswoods, you you you know, you don't have to see anything else through Crow. >> Yeah. years down the road, you'll do a reexamine for it and you'll evaluate how
far or how many things you have addressed and how far. So, we revisit it then. >> Yeah. And and then I think one of the things that we haven't talked about tonight that was brought up, well, two things, types of imperous materials
that will be addressed potentially with with the one ordinance we're looking at. That's been something that zoning board has supposed to been looking at for the 20 years I've been here. They've had subcommittees and it never got anywhere. >> Pervious asphalt is that kind of like >> pvious asphalt. Um pvious cement, you
know, different different types of things whether pools are pvious or impervious. >> D will have a say in that at some point. Yes. >> Yeah. >> I just remember the whole thing about leaves. You know, we're at Tree City USA with pvious concrete and pvious asphalt where the leaves are sitting on them and
clogging up all the holes. They're not really purpose in that. Well, and and the other >> we don't have maintenance ordinances on those types of products >> and it's it's putting in requirements for maintenance plans to be kept by the homeowner so that if they come back and request another zoning variance, they've
shown that they have maintained what's there. That's the big issue um when you're using those types of materials. Um because again, none of that works forever. Well, and none of that gets passed on to the next owner because we also have a high turnover in this town.
So, uh, what happens when the next owner doesn't even isn't even aware that they have a product that they have to maintain and then they come to us and they start saying, "What the hell is this?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and >> and it's not like in this purview, but
like I'm just in whatever term I have left the zoning board existing non-conforming on basics like replacing light forlife decks and that sort of thing. I mean, there's no reason why people should have to go for the zoning board that should
be administrative. >> I agree with that. >> Okay, >> I agree with that, too. >> Okay. talked about that for computers. >> We have it's just never been nothing's been done. >> Sidewalks. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If it's wood and now it's Pyex or whatever, you know, the product
>> doesn't matter. A sidewalk, a walkway, a a deck. If it's like for like you bring the drawings and say I'm taking this rotted deck and replacing it with >> the same size deck, same railing height, same design. >> That should be administrative. >> Yeah. Just bureaucracy for sake. >> Yeah. Aleno is putting in a lot of uh
imperfect. So, are decks really impervious? >> It depends. And that's one of the things that we want to talk about. If if they're depends on what the material is underneath them, >> concrete slide or dirt, >> right? And if it's if it's dirt and and
there's cracks in between, then you're right. It should be pvious. But if they're solid and you know there's there's a drainage thing underneath taking the water away, it's not. So it depends on the materials and stuff that has been talked about on and off and
again it's not something that's ever been formalized. So we can we can look at that. The last thing I was just going to mention and again this is not necessarily for 2026 but potentially for 2027 um is reooking at the downtown
um district and the requirements and stuff that we have there. Um, it was brought up by Doug McAllister several times and I believe a couple of others that there is some regulations that we have in the downtown zone that make it difficult to um,
>> glazing is one. >> Yeah, just some minor things that have to be addressed. Um, >> it's holding glass here. >> It's it's it's windows. It's like it's it's uh Yeah. So basically um because it's designed for the downtown district
on Kings Highway, but anything off of that, right, the requirements in every single instance I've encountered, the um like planning board is always allowing a variant on it because it's impossible to meet, right? >> So if it's impossible to meet, just
>> it Yeah, it was designed to maintain a historic store storefronts, but yeah, that's not appropriate. >> Yeah. Different goals, >> right? So that's something we would want to potentially look at this term, >> especially with resiliency as part of the master plan and the resiliency changes. It might be time for that.
>> And the way the downtown code was written, it should be able to be updated simply by changing the numbers. You don't have to do a wholesale over, you know, total review of it and change everything. You just go into those charts that have the numbers and change the numbers. So that's >> I'd really appreciated having to go to buy to get eight pieces of painting
glass made at 40 bucks a piece, you know, just so it had a little wiggle. >> Completely understand. But that's a residential home. That's historic. >> Sure. >> You know, when it's a store, what what we did I was on the school board. What we did to the high school
and continue to do the to our in, you know, our institutional design buildings to hold them to the same standard as a home. uh you know when when the roof costs four times as much as it probably should have just for an aesthetic. >> Yes. >> On a on an industrial building
these are mistake you know these are these are unfortunates that probably need to get corrected >> right >> agreed. So that you're saying that's a 2027. >> Yeah I yeah >> we're not going to take that on right now. >> Yeah the data >> but we want to make sure that you what
our needs are because you're not going anywhere. We just reappointed you. >> Right. and and and well in the other issue you're talking about dollar amounts. The amount of money it's going to cost to do the things that you want to do is within probably what you're going to be budgeting. So you don't want to add too much additional work on top of that because then your budget's going to be increasing and you already have
other increases heading into next year. >> So give them a little work as they go along. >> He can figure out. >> No, fair enough. You know, we our eyes are bigger than our stomachs. That's for sure. So, for some of you, this might be the first time you're looking at some of this paperwork. So, if you have any
questions or anything, you know, we can I can get you in touch with the gentleman and we can get you answers um with that. If if you guys are okay with the plan we're talking about, then they'll come up with some proposals to um for costs for those to to move
forward with those next year. I am I was really encouraged with the work and uh I think the quicker the better when it comes to trying to slow the tear down and oversizing problem. >> Okay. >> Uh real quick question on that. What
other towns have you worked in that have similar concerns, constraints, whatever the case may be? Historic towns where people don't want things torn down. You you must >> you must have a consultant's toolkit. You're like, "Oh, look. It's Mayberry. All right, I'll just change all and
here's your report and I'm going to charge you >> $100,000. >> Different. Every town's different, but um his historic historic walkable colonialish downtown, Victorian downtowns. West Kate May we're finishing something in next month that's got um out in Pennsylvania Skipback village has
a similar look a little bit highly more highly trafficked road but um you know that's or even Woodbury know we we specialize in the small walkable downtown >> that's and that's one we've been you know cultivating like it's a you know a
bonsai tree for years and years every little tiny move to make sure it's preserved and stays nice. So that's the approach we we'd like to take. solid analogy there with the bonsai tree. >> Made it up as I was going along. >> Not bad. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Anything else? Thank you so much for all your work on this. >> Thanks for letting us come. >> All right, gentlemen. Thank you. >> Great. >> Thank you. That's only a snippet of the actual report
forward looking part of it. So >> I was going to say Frank is going to have to hump that back and forth for months. >> Well, and and part of So if you take a look at our master plan, it's not it's not just the new master plan. It's also they had to do um the backwards look at
everything that had been done in the last review and see whether we made any progress or didn't or if we still felt that those were necessary. So that's all part of that whole big document. So you have it's it's actually multiple things into one.
>> Well, you you covered the question I had before I had it which was you know there have been updates to different areas. the downtown one it was updated. >> But sitting through the and listening, >> there were big misses even because there
were some must haves done in the 21 update or the 20 update or whatever the last one was for downtown. And so for the public to understand, just like you take it, it'll probably take more than four years. We can take them in pieces because even the revisions of the old
one were taken in pieces. >> Yes. Yeah. And it look and and there are different elements that we have and have added over time that some haven't been looked at again since then
except for a general overview. Um you know some of them some of them are looked at in ordinances for example our historic district element. We haven't revisited the historic Yep. Actually, real quick, uh we want to say uh thank
you for Sheamus Mcedigan for coming in tonight as part of his scouts project. He asked to observe uh local government in action. So, uh thank you Sheamus for showing up and uh in keeping with the Marine Corps's 250th birthday. Uh Craig Mcedigan was in the Marine Corps combat
veteran. So, uh happy birthday there. Separ buddy. >> Thank you. Thanks for service. Next stop, Eagle Scout. >> All right, see you guys. >> Thanks, Rick. >> Lost your train of thought, didn't you?
>> Completely lost my train of thought. >> You did that on purpose now. Anyway, >> um but so, so for example, the HBC, we did not redo the element, but we did redo completely redo the ordinance not
long ago. >> So, you know, there are different ways that we've addressed things over the years >> and we'll continue to do that >> and we'll continue to do that. >> You you know how this town wants to give input, so that's going to continue as
well. Another poster poster post-it note in section would be awesome. >> Definite uh back to its Quaker origins. >> No one will bash you on Facebook because >> we actually got a really good analysis
for that. >> Remember, yes, it was a good term. >> Now that the fall fair is back, we haven't built an opportunity to get feedback. >> Uhhuh. I'm just pushing every button. >> Just keep going at it. >> Did you have respond like over 200?
>> Over 400. >> It was something like 18,000 total responses of one kind or another. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> This is people who just logged in and did one or two questions or something like that. It was we we tell you mentioned one of the towns we work in. We tell everybody about that survey that
you guys did when they say how many people do you think we can get? Well, who's the target? >> Yeah. It was it considering you know some of the how hard we have tried to get input over the time. We were really happy with the
input we got on the master plan. So >> imagine if we put it on Facebook >> actually it was Facebook big bellies the app it was on the big >> was the first Yeah it's the first time we Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We had it out everywhere.
>> Yeah. Oh, I remember. >> Yeah, Jeff at a table. Yeah, multiple events. >> Yeah, he did. Jeff was at the farmers market. >> Yep. >> Taking emails and I remember. >> Yep. >> All right. Well, gentlemen, thank you.
Yep. We're going to move on. >> Okay. Um, next on the agenda is to discuss use of burrow property. Uh, we have four requests, three of which are annual events. Those annual events are we have the central PTA has their annual
cheetah 5k run. Uh Christ the King has a third third annual outdoor mass on June 7th, 2026 at Library Point. Um, and the manura lighting is on for December 21st,
uh, at Library Point from 4 to 6:00 p.m. >> What night of Hanukkah is that? >> Come on, Jason. >> Yeah. >> Last year was the six. Sorry, I I'm glad we we moved up the packet order.
>> It just depends when they're available. Um >> there are somewhere every night. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think last year was Christmas Eve. >> Yeah. I think it was difficult last year. >> They started Christmas Day and then New Year's Eve and then I think they moved
it to something else that was more palatable. >> I remember the time I couldn't think it. >> Oh, I'll tell you. It was December 30th this year. >> All right. >> We're moving down. We're going the wrong way. Yeah. All right. I was just curious, but now it's told.
>> Um, are you okay with that date for the minora lighting? >> 21st. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, any questions on the three annual events? >> Well, that's where we're going next. >> Um, so your next uh your fourth one is a
brand new event. Sparrows uh in conjunction with Kings Road would like to close Mechanic Street. Not Mechanic Street in the parking lot, just Mechanic Street to the first entrance um for to hold a New Year's Eve party from 400 pm
to 900 p.m. >> The question I go ahead that is essentially where Sparrows ends. So >> So basically Sparrows Ends of the Earth and King's Road that's like that's what would be blocked off.
>> Correct. And we would have to make Mechanic Street one way coming the opposite way that it is so that people can still enter and exit the parking lot. That's what we do when we close the front portion. >> It's a small bit of it. Yes. >> In my sign it says enter this way and
then exit the other way. So it's reverse what they would typically do. >> Yeah. We would just it's it's only one entrance that is actually that you actually block that first entrance, don't you? Yeah. So it's so it's you only have the the back entrance that's closer to Clement. >> Okay.
>> But that's not new. The new is how much staffing does that take? Because I'm just going to be frank. It that's a lousy ask on New Year's Eve. >> It is potentially going to be a staffing issue. Um we were talking about one or
two officers. Um, we used to have a separate rate for New Year's Eve that officers got paid. Um, it was it's not in the contract currently because we no longer have the big New Year's Eve rate or event. Um, but we had a separate rate
that was paid whatever rate we if we discuss this with with the PBA and come up with an alternate rate for that that event. Um that would be borne by the cost of the two entities >> and it would be part of the permit. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay.
>> Yeah. >> But yes, it it's is a difficult night to get people sometimes. >> And how what are you talking? So you said two officers. What about public works? >> Um I I think they were not
>> I don't think they were asked for. >> They weren't asked for. Um and I >> got to block the street. >> Well, what happens is is public works provides the barricades to the police and the police officer barricade. Usually those on staff, you know, on that evening would actually do the
barricades ahead of time and then the persons just in case there's issues >> um and making sure that traffic doesn't interfere with anything on the second >> they so yes that is correct. So, we
would assume that they would just put everything any trash that they have in the in the container or in the um >> Oh, New Year's Day is a Sunday. >> Doesn't matter. New Year's is New Year's Day is a holiday. >> No, that's >> so there's there's no trash or there's
no pickup. >> So, those two businesses I mean they're very >> Yeah, they're respons. Yeah. >> So, what happens if they can't get staffing? >> Is it a conditional kind of permit? Like I've never heard of one like that.
that minimum let's say it's two hours by contract I order somebody in it's got four hours then we you know so I want to order somebody in
for a profit kind of event on it's going to be difficult to get it all serious >> you have no other discussion >> we not have any backup options like maybe this is escalating a bit but like can't we talk to homeland security or something like can you guys send us a
few cops >> I mean what we could do such you can guess you know mutually other >> could you offer the permit with the assumption it's worst case scenario that it is a time minimum at a certain rate
>> it would have to be whatever yeah >> the minimum is regardless after another minimum like if you're saying >> it's it's it yeah it's >> oh I see >> yeah the event is long enough that that it the time requirement of our contract
doesn't matter >> what is the likelihood if it ends at 9 what's the likelihood of having some police police officers that want to do it because they get paid more and it's still early at night I mean I imagine some younger people 9:00 like sure no problem not not even dressed yet These
are this was when we were doing first 10 to 12. >> Yeah. >> Very difficult to get that many one or two. I mean I'll try I'll give the world if you guys want >> we haven't gone that route because it's not been discussed by you guys yet. I
mean it's possible we won't have an issue. >> And again that's that's part of the issue. We'll resolve that and and we'll let them know that the permit's going to depend on whether we can get staffing and we won't stop trying to get staffing. will reach out to other communities. We typically don't go to Homeland Security, but we do reach out
to surrounding communities. >> And that was >> it to me as a >> Yep. >> And that was my big concern. I I wouldn't want to It's almost like a volunteer duty. I mean, there's money involved, but I mean, I'm talking about volunteer your
time to take that duty, not a forced duty. >> Yeah. Um the second issue is you have two forprofits asking to close Mechanic Street and this won't be the last time if this is approved. So you
know what you have to think about is the impact that has on the parking lot and the other businesses. You know cuz this happens to be New Year's Eve. Most of the businesses, you know, are potentially going to be closed, at least the ones on Mechanic Street. So, you're
not likely going to have an issue with those, but these requests have in the past come and and have been denied for, you know, Saturday afternoons or, you know, something else, which then has a bigger impact for the other businesses. So, I just want to make sure you guys
think through where this puts you in the future if you say yes to this. That's all because it more will come. >> See, it aligns with my desire. So, I I I was I've shared with you, why don't we
close it? Why don't we offer it to be closed once a month for events and just bring more traffic? Whether or not it's part of the partnership for Hatfield or individual businesses down there, I really do think that that's a winner type of activity.
Forget about the staffing on New Year's Eve. But for me, I I actually would love to encourage the closing of Mechanic Street more often on the weekends. Uh, I guess I'm fine with it either way. And and a lot of has to do like those
those businesses happen to be I think strong supporters of the town and and are are good players. Um, like would we be open to just having them if we can't get police officers to having private security with a a phone
line to the on call police officers at night in case there's >> I I don't I don't want to hold this up because of staffing because I think we can resolve >> the hardest part is staying until 9:00. >> You're on your feet. the same problem.
>> From my young family point of view, this is a perfect time. Like at this point on December 31st, I will have been cooking now for multiple hours and this will be a great excuse to get the kids out. Most likely we'll grab a little popcorn, something, and then we'll probably go to
whatever business is open and walk downtown. So, if anything, this is going to pull people out of, but it's commonly not a time to be out. So, I don't know. I think I think this is not a bad idea. It's perfectly fine. Again, we have just never approved forprofit closing of of
municipal property for for-profit. That's fine if you guys want to. I'm just making sure you're aware that you're setting the precedent. That's all. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, we're moving forward with all four events. >> Okay. Okay, next item. Um,
so at our last meeting, we made changes to our banking and also are going to be bringing on a payroll service. Um, with that, there are some additional um code, additional items we need to add
into our code. And so we're looking at two ordinances. Um, one of which is authorizing the third party payroll dispersement. Um, I provided the there's the the sample that has been
provided to us by Alex. Uh, here we are. Okay. So, the first one was the direct deposit. it. This is um mandating direct deposit unless otherwise, you know, an employee still
can ask for a paper check, but because we're going to have a payroll service, people will now be able to get their we don't have to print paper copies anymore for everybody. They'll be able to get them through the payroll service. They'll be able to get their W2 through the payroll service. So, it cuts back on
cost for us. >> We won't be getting the things in the mail every week that >> zero. >> Yeah. I I I'm not sure you're set up for a direct deposit. Okay. Somebody isn't. So, we'll get that worked out. Um
so, we'll get that. >> Perfect. >> Um anyway, so this is we do have a few people who don't who don't get it. Um, I did I did request that employees did have the ability because I was unsure with some of the part-time staff that we
get, especially at leave season, that they would, you know, want to be able to do the um direct deposit. So, we do have that in there that we can wave that and that person get a paper check if necessary. >> Yeah. Like pirates for and stuff like that and for but this doesn't that has
nothing to do with the police st I mean the fire department stip. They will still get checks because that's an >> they are still because that is another that is an OE expense. They are not payroll. They are not payroll people. All right. >> They do not get a direct deposit. >> Keeping them not as employees in every
way possible. >> Um so that that that way the we are conforming with the law. Um the second one like I said is the third party electronic payroll service. Um this is required by DCA authorizing us to allow
another party to cut our checks and access things. Um that is with the bank change also. Um one of the things that we've been working on and we're hoping to do it earlier this year but because of the bank change we had to wait um and
I believe our other bank was not moving forward doing it. Um is a pec card. So there are a lot of mostly software software that we use whether it be Microsoft or some of the others they won't take a check anymore. They don't
like the pay the the the um purchase order. Um they want a credit card and we are legally not allowed to have a credit card. So we they did 101 15 years ago or whatever allow a pec card to be put in place. There's you have to follow a
procedure. you have to, you know, adopt a policy. They can only be used for certain things that we are only going to have one. We're not allowing every department head to have one. It's it's going to be one. It's going to be for software. It's going to be for um being able to make room reservations sometimes
because some of these uh conferences don't take, you know, the purchase order for it. You need you need or they accept the purchase. You can't make the room reservation without the card, but then you send the check later. So, it's being able to do that and it's being able to do for some um conferences, some of
these alternate conferences put on by certain entities, they need a a payment. They don't take a purchase order. That's all it's going to be allowed for. It's not going to be allowed for anything else. Um and so, Alex pulled together what he did because he just put this in place in Vorhees. Um so, obviously we
would change this to make it Hadenfield specific. Um, but here is the sample policy and procedure that we would be approving by resolution. >> Have a PC card limit in the resolution that I that I found >> because I mean we use PC cards all the
time at work and you know there there's >> there's different types of cards. I think the highest limit is is something like $25,000 >> but a month >> but then there is a procedure to >> temporarily increase that if something that you're buying or the activity of
that month got so high that and it's around conferences. I mean it's about booking flights for people and stuff like that. Uh but it didn't have it in the pay. I'm okay either way. I just wanted to point out that it didn't have a cap on a monthly limit. >> Yeah. um probably because of what we're
limiting it to and the fact we're limiting it to one person and we're limiting it to very specific things. It's not we unless for some reason we had a lot of software do at the same time which tends not to be the case. Um and I think our most expensive thing is
$8,000. So other >> cut down on your expense reports. >> Yes. >> All right, fair enough. But not Jason's. >> No, Jason. Well, Jason's got cut down once we got the Amazon account. >> Yes. Right. Exactly. Okay. >> So,
yeah. >> Oh, Amazon gov. You're That's not Pecard, that's actually purchase order. >> Yes. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, they're they're working with us. Is there any questions about those because we would like to add them to the agenda. I think I think the ordinances
Diana has on the draft agenda, but we would like to um make sure they're on this month so we can take action this year. Okay. Okay. >> That's not by resolution. That's by >> one two of them are by ordinance. One's
by resolution. >> The P cards by resolution. >> All right. So that could happen sooner than the >> that well the PC card it's with the the bank is changing I believe in the next two weeks. So we had to it's the new bank that's going to set up the PC card.
>> Okay. >> So we'll do the resolution at the end of the month. will probably have the PC card during December. >> The other two will get before the >> correct >> payroll won't actually start until January with the new payroll company because that's a nightmare to try and
switch mid year especially this late in the year. Okay. Uh the next item is and I have to run to my office because it's in my office is the roads. Did you print it out on the big sheet? Okay, good. Is the um 2026 2028 road
program. So, typically what we try and do is plan the road program for most of your No, I'm gonna get something. Give me one second. >> Bigger one. >> No, I pulled out that >> I mean it must be because talking about
this public information. >> Yeah. Yeah. I used to share that like you you'll get people who are asked like hey where does my trade stand on this and like well your stream is a ranking 56 which >> isn't horrible but it's not great either
ones that have improved are ones in the 20s and 30s so we have 28 31 >> and usually when you when you share that information like if you do a sort by in Excel and you kind of share hey this is what you're looking at people are usually like all right like I don't
agree with it, but you know, I I'm okay with it, too. >> Good. Is there I know you're I'll let you start. Sorry. >> Questions. >> Absolutely. As I would hope that you would. Um so
the document Diana had pulled out. So, the one that Dave's looking at, that is the results of the um um the analysis that was done on each of the roads. This is the first time we
used the the vehicle that drives up and down and it's analyzed um by AI and put into a lovely little system and you know, spit out the details. Um we had that done last late late last year. Um there were some
issues with it. So we were able to come up with a road program for this year. It was late. Um we prefer we typically like to authorize the road program in the fall so that they are designed through the winter and we're ready to go out
early the following year so that we're under construction by May. That is the typical cycle. So that way we get all the roads done because if you award too late, you get into a situation where you're still working into too late in
the fall and depending on how the weather goes, you could lose weather and not be able to finish certain roads until the following spring. So we like to try and stay ahead of that schedule. Plus, we also get our roads out there early enough that the road the the
contractors um aren't already filled with all a bunch of other work to making sure that we get decent contractors to do the job >> May until >> it depending. So now that we're doing a million rather than 2 million, it
typically is done within three months. So, um, when we were doing 2 million, we would start potentially in May, uh, and still be going through October, finishing things up. >> Rule of thumb is you can't lay asphalt
after Thanksg Yeah. You can't put the line, you know, that you have the same situation when you're trying to do the thermoplastic for the lines. um either for you know crosswalks or or center line or any other lines that may be put in place um depending on what was
there or what's been asked for. So you have that document that was done um as I indicated it's it's done in two different formats. It's done alphabetically so that you can look at a street because we do each block individually
because not an entire street isn't all surprisingly does not decay at the same rate. Um, it has a lot to do with, you know, the road traffic that goes over it and, um, or the lack of road traffic
that goes over it, whether something has a curb or not. Um, a number of variables that go into place. And then you also have it done by ratings. So, where you have the worst rating, which we addressed this year, Gil Road, um, section one from Warwick
to treat Treaty Elms had a rating of five. So typically where you hope to be is you you hope that you are doing roads in the high 50s, low 60s.
We've never caught up since we began the 20 the million-dollar road program 20 years ago. Um we haven't been able to get to a point where we ever get beyond 50. So usually by the time in four years
that we re-evaluate the roads will change and you will see some decay much faster. Um and as you look through you'll see the whole history there of each of the analysis. Um I believe they probably have four different years in there um in the
report. So you'll see how the road road has changed over time. You know, some of that has to do with if we had really bad winters and a lot of salt was put down, that will decay the roads faster. So, we would get to doing a new analysis and
think that we were going to be able just to continue on and there were roads that were next that we still didn't get to because roads that had a better rating all of a sudden had a far worse rating. and we it's been our policy for a number of years now to just kind of follow the
rating. The one um variable that we do is because of um being able just to continue with two blocks if necessary. You will see as we go through with potential um programs
over the next couple of years that we're even if you take if you take what we did this year, GIL, we did three sections of GIL. Um as I indicated, the the first section of Gil was rated as as a five.
The second section of Gil was rated as a 39 and I believe the Yeah, here we are. The other one was a 36. We didn't want to do one section at five knowing we were going to have to come back at a later time and do the rest. So, we just it's it's better value to do
the whole road at once when they're all in such poor condition. So, we did that. We did do um another road. We bumped another road in 2025 above
um a less rated road because it was higher traffic. Um we had that block of Lincoln that was just deteriorating uh beyond repair and at at the speed bump. So we did bump that up over lesser rated
roads because it's so highly trafficked. Um >> and we did it in the summer. Yes, we tried to do as many of the roads near the schools in the summer as we could. Um, so that's kind of an analysis of how we have done the roads. Um, so what you
have on the Excel spreadsheet that I don't know if Diana printed out for you or not. >> Okay. There was an Excel spreadsheet attached to your file. Um, and
I can go get it on a PDF if you want me to put it up. I think it was in our state. >> Yeah, I don't remember seeing it electronically. >> You know what? Let me just go make a copy of these. Be quick. >> This is just the list. >> Yeah. >> Well, no, we do have the rated list by
low to high as well in appendix B. >> Yeah, >> but that's from 2024. This isn't the recommended, >> right? This isn't the recommended one. This is just the scores of streets. I'm thinking of the ladder inducing uh pothole at the end of Oak.
When you get on to Warwick Road, you better not take that fast ever. >> Oh god. >> Like how many do you realistically get here? >> And it's not even like a full road. You have to look at like lengths from like
across street to cross street. Uh like at our peak we were at two million. You could probably do >> like maybe 14 to 20 like lengths but it's not the entire rose. >> Yeah. So I mean this is probably like well I mean we'll find out here in a
minute maybe seven to 10 >> and at 2 million it was because we had utility sale money still. Yeah. And now we don't >> thing like we're never going to catch it at that rate. Like we can't >> we're not going to be able to chip away at it fast enough for this to
Um >> you it's >> like erod like the roads are eroding you can get >> uh so yes but when we redo the roads we use like the PSO process and um Sharon
can talk about what we what we were trying out somewhere else where it wasn't the PSO pro. So that the the PSO process pulverize stabilize and overlay is where like you dig down >> 18 in build like the substrate back up and
then put the asphalt and any sort of curves and stuff like that to fix it. >> Um so >> like the the >> um one more >> there's five of them. >> Oh, five. Uh, so what you're what you're
hoping for over time is I'm giving it just like the kind of back PSO. >> What you're hoping for over time, no, it's the same one. Just pass that and other one Frank over time is that you're as you're doing the PSO, >> the streets you're doing today, you
know, 15, 20 years from now, I think he's covered. >> All right. >> The streets we're doing today, 15, 20 years from now, you don't have to do the PSO process over again. that would just be like a mill overlay. Um, you know, this has been we do it long
enough that like I mean I think we probably have like data to support it and stuff like that. Um, so you know, long term when you do round two of doing the streets all over again, it's not going to be as robust as what we're doing right now. And some of these streets have been kind of maintaining
their health, so to speak, for a while just because they're not as heavily traveled. And it still amazes me if you're telling me that winds are 51. I'm telling you you're crazy. That's >> I want to ride around that vehicle with >> I you know again
um okay so what you have in front of you I've taken the data of the um roads with the lowest ratings and we go from Gil Road which was uh Gil Road one
which is the the least rating as a five and take you all the way up to Washington 11 which is a 40. Again, there are a number of roads after this. It's just trying to come up with the road program for the next three years. Um, we there are a couple of exceptions.
Uh, Glover, I need to check with the school to find out when their construction work's going to be done because what we don't want to do is a road. Same with Snowden. Snowden waited for a long time because we wanted to have all the heavy equipment done
before we go to do the road again. So, Glover may be one of those roads that we I have it in 2027 assuming that the schools will be done with construction in 2026, but I just need to confirm that. Um,
uh, another one is Hopkins 2 and Hopkins 3. Hopkins 3, we are receiving $250,000 from Woodmont for the reconstruction of that. Um, again, at least with that section, you're going to want to wait uh until
Woodmont is done to move forward with that. It would be my recommendation to wait on both of them at that point and move forward. One of the things you one of the long term conversations we may want to have with the county is whether
or not on the county property we could put sidewalk because you're never going to get it across the street on the resident properties. Um but whether or not we can somehow add sidewalk along on the county property. >> Oh, from Grove to the curve. From Grove
to the bridge, you mean? >> Yes. Um, so that I've pulled out for right now. Roads Avenue 3 is pulled out because that is our we submitted that as our state aid for this year. But I'm highlighting the fact that right now
they're um projecting that the cost for Roads Avenue for the part that we submitted to the state is 347. Typically the amount of money we're getting from the state is 195,000. So we will have to cover the remaining portion. The same with
Mountwell. Mountwell we received um the award last year for it's it was technically the 2025 award. Um and we received 1951 128. The cost that was in here I've modified
it to the 220 which is the current estimate from the engineer. They're also talking about 200,000 in storm water because we did the analysis of the storm water pipe under Mountwell and is terracotta and needs to be redone and there's some discussion that they're
trying to finalize because we are going to have to go this is costing more because we're going to have to go into the intersection at choose and modify um a uh manhole. Um, so there's additional
costs here because of additional work unexpected. So we're going to have to cover some additional costs because all of that work is not going to be done on here. Um, >> and that's that last part you talk about going into the intersection. We have to coordinate with the county. Is there a
timeline that we have to coordinate with them? >> Right now those plans are under review by the state. We can't move forward with going out to bid for anything until the state. Plus, we've already he has begun discussion with the county engineer indicating so he's supposed to be sending our engineer is supposed to be
sending the county engineer the plans that were drawn up or the idea that was drawn up to see what needs to be done and whether it could be approved. Okay. Um unfortunately in the sheet that you have the these don't make colors this on in in the spreadsheet actually
is done by different colors to coordinate with so you can see where the roads are done. But if you go all the way to the right side, um, based on going by the the ratings, my recommendation are for 2026, 2027, and
2028 are there for your review. Um, we I said we have a million-doll road program. The reason you're seeing 800 700 to 800,000. So that million dollars includes design, it includes inspection.
So the million dollars we put in in 2025 is for the 2026 design and then the money we'll put in next year for 2026 will be for the construction inspection and design for 2027. So um
>> that's kind of where we are. Um plus you never know what's going to happen. You know, it's sometimes what you'll see is depending on how what we did this year is we put the roads out um
in a much smaller number initially as the base bid and then we did a couple of roads as alternates because depending what the costs were coming back in, what we felt we were going to be able to afford. And we we actually did two of the three alternates in 2025. And the
third one is your first road on 2026 is the one that we pulled out. So 2020 So Oak Avenue 1 has already actually been designed. >> We use the uh the Kevlar mix. >> We did not. They are not none of the
plants are set up to do it. So, we one of the reasons that we were also looking to do some other things with the road program in 2025 is there is a new material out there that that Frank's talking about. It's a Kevlar mix
that they actually um put into the asphalt and then it mixes into the asphalt and what it's supposed to do is harden the roadway significantly so that you could actually cut a square and lift
the entire thing up and and it's supposed to keep it because one of the issues that we have we are currently using an asphalt mix that is probably authorized I'm going to say at least 8 years ago,
if not 10. Um, I have seen in my 37 years that the the mix of asphalt changed drastically. And roads are supposed to last 20 years. We have roads that we did 20 years ago
that or less than 20 years ago that should be in better condition that are already so showing signs of cracking and some issues. um they are taking all the oil out of it for environmental reasons, but the problem is there's nothing keeping it to stick together. So this
Kevlar was a really great idea that was relatively inexpensive comparatively. Um so we were looking at doing some of the roads as mill and overlays because we were looking to put the Kevlar in it. Um,
unfortunately the plants in New Jersey are not going to switch over to being prepared to do something like that until DOT approves it and DOT has not approved it yet. It is being used in I think in portions of Pennsylvania. Um, and I forget where
else Doug found it but >> WPA we're asking like where the area. >> Yeah. Um, so we were looking to try and do that. I think that is going to be something definitely in the future if we can get the state to approve it. Um that we're going to want to look to do. It
does increase the cost of your asphalt slightly. Um but again, like I said, we might not have to do a full um uh we might not have Yeah. PSO at this point. We might be able to do mill and overlays because it'll Yeah. Um it actually could be a potential
savings doing it that way. And so you might be able to get some more roads done and it may provide a longer duration. Um, just going back to the road list here, what I did do is you you do have a separate small sheet. So when you see
that there were four roads that I looked at that had multiple um uh blocks and as I said when we looked at Gil, it made sense to do all three of Gil at one time. So, what I wanted to do
was look when we were doing these to make sure we weren't doing a a block, you know, in one year and coming back and doing another block the next year. And so, for East Park, you're not um East Cottage, you know, I I looked at that, but you're
actually would be bumping over a block. You So, you would be going you'd be doing one block, jumping over a block to do the next block when they're all slightly higher. So I just I felt that that made more sense just to do the one block. And then you look at Washington
and so I have the one block of Washington from Tavistock to Lane of Acres in 2027. But then the four that are all um that go from one block all the way through I have in 2028. Why did you have east park again?
Because there's only one segment of the road that's 31. >> Correct. The rest of the roads in relatively good condition. So I I'm not bumping the them ahead. >> Correct. >> We're still requiring utility openings
to go curve to curve. >> It depends on the utility opening. If it is in the mor if it's on a street that's in a moratorum. So if it's within five years >> of our >> of our paving, they have to do curb to curb. Yes. After that, that is our law
because the county only has one year. um that we our ordinance does state though, however, that you know you're if you're um doing multiples within a a stretch,
you have to do them all as one patch rather than >> Oh, like you're replacing the sewer or four or five houses, you got to do it all. >> Correct. Um and that is also why another one of the roads is not included on here. Farwood Road 5, Cedar to Grove. Uh I had
I'm I've reached out to Pioneer because they're doing all of the water over in that area and my guess is they're going to be repaving the road, but I want to confirm that, which is why that's not in this three-year plan >> area right now. >> They're in that area now. They're doing
they're doing all of Farwood. They're doing all of Longwood, both the circles and hillside. The new main is in. they were going back and doing the services. So, is there any questions on the road program? Anything you would like to look
at to revise or change? You said you had a number of questions. >> I did. I think you answered most of them actually. >> Okay. >> I just have to sit down and study this a little bit more. >> Can't be accused of not being thoughtful
about it. I >> that's you know we we try and >> um I don't know if we happen to have it yet or not. I was looking at Joanna. We certainly can put it on. Um I would put it on
probably the only the alphabetical rather than the whole thing because people are going to want to look up their street and rather than look at the rating and that way they can see all of the ratings right there. We're gonna Yeah, I know. He was busting my stones because the game's starting
soon. I'm trying. Um, can we put the alphabetical rating on the website somewhere? >> Can you do a summary of what the rating means as a precursor to all that? So, people I've answered a lot of questions over
the years and provide screenshots. It's just it's not >> Yeah. Funny cuz I was looking at that. I was like, "Oh, it's need blind. It's bad street. Doesn't really matter what part of town it's in. Bad street, it's a bad street. We don't give a little here and
a little there." Like, we don't sprinkle We don't sprinkle it around. It's streets a street in town. If it's bad, it gets rated. >> Will you let us know when it's on the website? Because then we'll push it out tomorrow on Facebook, too. >> Yeah. Because you'll get a lot of people who will send questions saying, "When is
my re street getting done?" >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, that's part of when we started. I mean, the first one of these was done back in 2004. Um, and the idea at the time was
we were going to do one reconstruction, a couple of millan overlays, and some microsurfacing. Um, what we found is that, as Frank walked in on Frank telling you, most of the bases of our roads are non-existent.
So that didn't work. So we were doing all reconstructions and then we switched to PSO. It ended up being cheaper and better for us. Um, so we just once we switched to that, we just started going from the worst rated
roads that way. There was no f we did is we went through and hit initially back in the late 2000s. We hit the highest traffic roads that were in really poor condition. So we did those first and
then um and then started doing everything just by ratings. It seems the most fair. So, what I would like to get from you guys sometime before the end of the month, if
possible, is your blessing to go ahead with this list because I would like to tell Doug to come up with a proposal to start to give me a price to design the two 2026 roads. Um, you know, we can modify 2027 and 2028, you know, as as we
move forward. Um, but I would like to kind of finalize 2026 if possible. No problem. I have something else in here. Yep. I just got to find it. I printed it out. Um, so capital, you know, we really have
not done a capital ordinance so far this year because I was holding off trying to get finalized pricing on Had our cost of Haden Avenue and Radner and a couple of other things and those are taking a little longer than I wanted to. So, we do need to move forward with authorizing
a vehicle for uh, hold on, let me find the paper here. um public works because those take about a year and a half to actually get them. So, we do just have three minor things on the capital plan
for 20 for 2025. The rest of the stuff will wait till 2026. Um except I gave you mine. Sorry. Okay. Um
All right. So, one of the things that we're looking at as we now have a um stipen program and we have firefighters and EMS both at the firehouse 247. Um there the firehouse is a very historic
building. Um and it doesn't necessarily meet all of the requirements of what we need today. But because it's a historic building, we can't just go in and make changes. Also, because it's a historic building, we potentially could have grants available
to assist us with making the capital improvements through the historic trust, but you have to do a feasibility study and review of the building before you can move forward with that. So, I uh Louise contacted all of the historic
architects that we have or that the state historic preservation office has on their website. We contacted them all asking them to come down and talk to us because we wanted to get a cost estimate to see whether we had funding, you know, that we could move forward with this now
or we needed to put it in capital. Um, we had three that agreed to come down, the rest weren't interested. Um, we had three come down and two of which provided proposals, one did not. Now the cost of those pro
proposals ranges anywhere from I'd say 40,000 in architectural studies with an additional 16 in engineering using the engineers that they typically associate with up to um
60,000 with an additional or 65,000 with an additional 14,000 in in engineering between the two proposals. So you're going anywhere from, you know, 50some to 70some. Um, so
that's me still bouncing. Um, so what I'm putting in here is 70,000 for the work, assuming that we will end up with a lower fee, but you never know what you're going to find as you're going along and you may have to have additional cost. So again, the what I'm requesting is 70,000
for this ordinance. The police department and DPW are going to need new radios. Chief, that's because when we move the antenna here, >> right, >> right,
>> right. Right. So, um, the chief has gone through and found something where we can get the new equipment for 12,000 and then there'll be an annual or an annual cost for each of the the units. So,
adding that into here and then the stake body is the truck that we need for public works and that's running about 135,000. So, the ordinance would be for 217,000. It actually probably would be for 222 225 because you put some bonding costs and stuff in there also to help
offset those costs. >> What is the state body dump truck? >> Um the stake body is used to um transport various things from sight to sight. Um it I'm trying to think of the
easiest way to explain it. Yeah, it's it and it's it's more than what you will find as we move forward is most of our public works equipment is at least 20 years old, if not 25 or older. Um, we tend to wait until
they've hit the very end of their limit before we purchase something new because a lot of it is very expensive. So, so that is the request for this year. Any questions? Are you okay with it? If so, we'll put
the the introduction of the bond ordinance on at the end of this month. I mean, I when I toured the firehouse uh and saw uh the limitations of the shower facilities, bathrooms for women, you know, firefighters and like
all that there's desperate need to be updated. >> Yes, >> this is the first step. That's a great first step. There's also uh the uh size of the apparatus, ladders, trucks, all that have changed too. So I think part
part of all those doors and stuff too to make sure >> Yeah. So the >> Chevy Colorado doesn't fit in the garage anymore. Like the fire truck doesn't fit in the garage anymore. >> Yeah. So So that discussion is twofold. Um, when you look at the structure of the
firehouse, it is going to take a lot to try and change the height of those doors. So, it's do we go through the hassle of trying to change the height of the doors and change the look of the building or do we spend extra money on the the
next piece of equipment to have it specially made >> so it fits. >> So, it fits. that's going to be the offset and that's part of the discussion with this report. Um, so the second part with this report is, uh, I was talking with when I was
going over this with Alex this afternoon, you know, one of the things we asked for pricing, um, from these professionals because we had no idea what this was going to cost and there was no way for me to determine whether it had, you know, we had the funding or bonding. Um, as I said, we kind of went
through a whole process. This is typically something we would go out for RFP for. We can tell the two people that have submitted, "Thank you. We appreciate the time and effort you put into this. Now, we're formally going to go out and RFP it, and we can add that on to the, you
know, to the November meeting, you know, authorizing an RFP to get in and see what the pricing comes in at." Um or we can have whoever we decide and my assumption would be the looking that they are apples to apples comparison
probably going with the lesser cost um to require them to do an uh this paperwork for an um me get the words right exactly right hold on pursuant to a nonfair and open process
needs to be put. >> Yeah. Needs to be put in the resolution. Um because it's professional services, you have the option, you can do that. Um Alex said it's an it's a an optics. You know, we kind of went through the process without going through the process, but it's it is an optics. And
so we wanted to put that have that decision, you guys make that decision as to which way you wanted to move forward. Well, we've run into problems in the past where you think you know the number and then you go out and all the bids you
have to reject because they don't meet the number. At least we know we have two bids that meet the budgetary requirement. >> Can't you put that in RFP? Oh yeah, they are >> you. >> We've already told them. We've already
we already say what the budget is. So they either make it or they don't. And at least these folks weren't scrimping and saving to make a number. They didn't have a number and they came in with >> Yeah. >> You know, my point is once from a
negotiation point, you know, say, "Hey, I got $30,000. you sell me a car because they'll sell you a $30,000 car but it's not going to have a radio and barely no air conditioning. Uh where if you just say I want to buy a car and they say well I have a $30,000 car you say perfect. That's that's the situation I
see it as. They didn't have a number in mind and they came in which established our number. But if we have a number I wouldn't want more expensive places selling us just because they know how much we already have to spend. That would be my concern. So the optics for
me is that is people not giving us their best to get the job because they already know how much we have to spend where these places came in with their best foot. >> So uh they being a former supply core
officer bonded by the US Treasury I think your starting point for a lot of this stuff is is getting a fair bid. So you know we start with people who you know recommendations on experts I reached out to a group of them another group several didn't respond and then of the three only two responded. So
essentially you've you've defined what fair market value is >> right >> which is plus or minus you know 70 to $80,000 or5 to right $75,000. So it's a pretty narrow band. >> The risk you run is you go back out and someone says I'll do it for 35. They
don't have the the the licenses. they're not good at what they do, whatever else. And then you're putting that the borrow at risk to try and save $20,000. >> All of that in the RFP, like you have to have these trips like the bare threshold they have to meet based on
price we have. Like how can't we be specific in the RFP is what I'm saying. >> We typically don't put pricing in the RFP. >> We just I mean I don't think there's anything that says you can't. Um, but if you're putting
pricing in an RFP, then you're saying we want you to agree to pay to to do the services for this price rather than give us a price of to do the services. >> My point my point is like if we're procuring, can we be really specific on the conditions of procurement including
for example any trying to avoid any shortfalls of >> Yes. >> Yeah, you can. It's much easier when you're buying something when you're buying a thing or you're buying a road or you're buying a but when a professional service they could meet the
number and you get the junior associate instead of the principal because that's all they that that makes the number but you're not getting the best person uh with the road things. Yeah. But that's also why you then get low bid because
everybody's already bound by a lot of the RFP as well as just professional standards of material and things like that. >> I I think I'm okay either way. Um >> do you think bids that fit the number?
>> I I think if we put it out and say here's the services. The concern is that they're going to cost, you know, it's, you know, you authorize the bid in the end of November, they come due the end of December, but you're not, you
know, people are then going to be putting January rates in it. I'm I'm concerned the cost is going to go up that this number is now going to change and be higher than it is. Again, that's fine. We can adjust the number we're putting in just to to have a little, you
know, comfort. Um, >> gross. >> They're just from this summer, >> like late summer. We had them come in probably in July, the end of June, July, and the one just got finally got the price to us. Like the one got us a price
within probably six weeks. The other one took I think the end of September. We finally got it from them. Um, we can certainly go go put, you know, here's you have to have a historic architect in it, you know, blah, blah, blah. Because again, part of it is we
want whoever we pick to be the person to help us write the grant and potentially get funding for whatever work we do do there. Um, and to help us through the Shipo application. Um, so yes, you can put all of that in. The concern that you
have is one, this is a five-month process. um as it is authorizing this now is going to put us close to when the grants are probably due um next year for next year's round of
funding. So you probably wouldn't be able to apply for anything until 2027. >> So you're losing out on time. >> You're losing out on time. Possible time and and potentially more expensive is is the two offsets. Again, either way. >> Yep. Right. N
>> your recommendation would be fun >> if you are comfortable. I think we've done the work to be able to comfortably say because we did not go to any particular person. We took the list from the state shipo from from um the office of historic preservation either of
these. >> No. No. I mean we had we I've never worked with any of the three that had come down. Um, and I said, you know, here here's here's the wish list from the fire chief. Please walk through the building. They spent, you know, an hour
with each of them spent an hour with the chief looking at everything. I said, and come back and tell us what you think needs to be done, what the steps were. They both came back with the same process and so it was a good applesto apples comparison. Um, and they both
have um, you know, and again, like I said, the one said, "No, I don't want to touch this one." So, um, and just didn't provide a price. So, I think we've done we've done the effort to try and get legitimate pricing for it. And because it's professional
service, that is one of those situations where you can >> you have a recommendation of which one? >> Yeah, I think the >> now because we're only approving the money. >> Yep. Um,
yeah. No, I I think so. We have HMR Architects uh came in, they were the higher one. They came in at 75 plus an additional 14 for civil engineers or we could use our own engineer. And then historic building
architects came in at 44 uh 47 46. um with optional 18,000 for civil
engineers and structural engineers. Um they were the cheaper one. I think they also have the more experience working with Shipo and historic structures. I think they're actually doing work over at the Indian King Tavern.
Um so I probably would recommend going with them. I remember going over there and being, "Oh, we have the original drawings is we're getting like new drawings." >> Yes. And that's and that's one of the and that's one of the things, you know, why you would have a structural and and
a and a civil engineer is >> good for is to send them to the historic society and put them in the >> Yeah. >> put them in climate control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They were not as built. They were the originals. Okay. Good. Um, okay. That's capital
animal control contracts. Um, that's >> for live animals. >> Yes. >> No, because we just approved carcass removal. >> Yes, that is separate that we get through the co-op with the county. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is >> that was actually an animal pretty controlled at that
point. >> And honestly, this is cats and dogs for the most part. They don't deal with wild animals. Well, I just saw somebody dragging a deer and I said, "Why are you dragging it?" We'll put it on the road, not in our town. Oh. >> Put it in another town. Because otherwise it would be their responsibility to get it to the road and
then it's town's responsibility. >> So, they were just dragging it. >> It was a It was a neighboring community, not >> Yes. >> You'll pause for later. >> Sure. >> Okay. We uh
we received um our annual contracts from animal control and and animal shelter services and neither of them have increased their cost. >> I'm sorry. Um if I implied that the shelter didn't they did they increased it by $40. So because last year they
increased it to 400 and then this year they're for uh for this year and then next year they're increasing it to 440. >> Okay. Okay. >> What's the time frame of the cost? >> 400 440 >> per month.
>> Per month that regardless if we send them animals or not >> or is it only months we have to use it? >> No, it's regardless when we usually do. There's I mean it's because it's not us just us if it's if it's one of our residents bringing like a stray animal.
Oh, >> sure. I don't at all. So yeah, but um prior to the increase for this year, we hadn't had a a price increase from them for probably eight years. Eight years plus.
>> Is it is it worth going out to bid then? >> We have two price increases in two years. >> This place in in Camden County there is is this place and the county shelter and the county shelter is very expensive. >> Yeah. They're like they're triple the cost.
That's why it's it's one of we we did do a full analysis and reached out to like every shelter that was in Camden County two years ago >> and these were the I mean this >> nobody would do it. >> Yeah. So, it's it's kind of one of those things that for the cost that it is, it it was still
cheaper than going with the county shelter >> and it makes it easier for town because then anybody can just call them when they find >> Mhm. >> it is close and >> especially close to go pick them up if it is yours.
>> We pay the bail. Um, so we would have those contracts on you putting them on this month or next month? >> December. >> December. Um, if you have any questions, let Tiana know. The next thing is um,
>> yeah, the AARP. Again, we brought this to you because typically we don't do resolutions um, when people support resolutions when people ask us because honestly the legislators don't really pay attention to them. Um but
and and commissioners in the past have made the decision to if they have a personal opinion about something to personally reach out and express that opinion. But because this is a new group of three, we wanted to bring this one to you and ask you how you would like to move forward.
I like how we've historically >> because then you don't have to you don't have to take a position on one thing or the other and you don't have to make it like a two versus one or like it just to me it's just support what you want to support
personally and you know otherwise have at it. >> Yeah, I'm conflicted. uh foremost things. I guess I'm naive to not walk into the political part of it. Frank's right. I
mean, it's it's it partisanizes us and we're not a partisan board. We're not a partisan commission. >> Is this political? >> I don't think so. >> But it could be because >> nursing home. Well,
>> if you if you remember, if you go back to COVID, um, nursing homes were the hot button topic. >> Yeah. >> Well, but then there's also the tax shelter component of a nursing home. Um, you know, it's people hide their money and then claim poor and they hide, you
know, and then they get to use public money to house their family member while they drain them. Like there's it can be politicized really fast. Uh, >> but is that a nursing home? That sounds like an individual doing that.
>> That's the point. That's my I the conflict is I'm I'm always naively surprised how politicized every issue gets and and so I'm nervous that as a nonpartisan commission just by saying, "Hey, you know, who could argue against
this?" Well, guess what? I've been wrong almost every time whenever I've said that statement. >> Yeah, this is a topic I'm naive on to. I'd love a chance to maybe review it um and have an opinion maybe next time we meet. But I I maybe Yeah, maybe it is. I
just don't see how it's political. >> Yeah. And well, it's >> I asked one friend who is who would have thought and they're like, "Oh, no, that's redot." >> The topic is and keep in mind though is it's not so much the topic itself. It's
like what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? So if you if you support this then you may have someone next month that says well you just supported that you should be in support of wind farms. Well I don't want to take a stand on wind farms. Yeah but you just took a stand on like it I just like just
>> it like I mean >> have you been in Ocean City? So, we had we had someone come a couple of years ago um because of the fracking because they would be driving potentially down 295 and because a very tiny portion of
295 is in Hadenfield trying to get us to make a decision one way or the other on fracking. >> No, it was >> LG. Oh, it's Oh, moving natural gas across the >> gas pipeline. >> Yeah. So something
>> so that's just kind of stuff like I just I I don't want to have to set separate the weed from the chat on all this stuff. That's >> good. >> But we also have had a whole bunch of letters. >> Yeah. >> We just need to know how you want to move forward. So if you guys want to
think about it. Yeah. >> Talk to people about Listen, nursing homes are very much in my life right now whether I like it or not. And I would love for them to be financially transparent. Um, this is from coming from a very selfish point of view, but if this is going to cause all kinds of
other problems, then you know, we should talk about it. So, if you if we can, can we just bring this back in December? >> Yep. >> If I learn anything interesting, I'll share with you guys. Um, okay. Draft agenda for the end of this month. We will have some budget transfers. I
don't have them at the moment. Um, we're adding the bond ordinance. We're adding the resolution on the pecards. I forget what else we talked about.
>> That's going to come to >> um I think he actually Yes, that because he couldn't the last one. So, so he is in my my November file for >> So, he would be in this one.
Yeah. >> Other than that, it's just a basic meeting. Hopefully nice and short and quick. >> This looks like another 30 minute meeting. >> Monday of Thanksgiving. >> Yeah. >> Correct. >> Yeah. Sorry. That's my daughter just
realizing that the Eagle game isn't on YouTube TV and she asked me for the Disney Plus password. >> She should have checked that earlier because it's in the room. >> FH update. There is no update at this time. There's nothing else they're asking for. Um, we can talk about
appointments if you want to in close session. If you guys have anything else um for the open portion, I do have two quick things in close session. >> Uh, I'll just say I shot it in the email today. Uh, I didn't want to raise it
prior to the elections just because I want to make it >> first going out and getting the signs. >> She's picking them up or works. Okay. All right. And can we just contact those people as we see them and say don't do this again. >> Okay. Thank >> that's collecting uh signs like
>> election signs. I didn't all that jazz. >> We also have the one um >> we have the one local organization that's been putting them all in the park strips and the main throw fairs. Oh, the
um the Thanksgiving >> race. Yeah, I believe so. >> Yeah. >> Can we put something out on something? We did. >> Yes. >> Music. >> Nobody through it.
>> Yeah. It just >> Congratulations. >> They like the music. >> It It doesn't It doesn't change anything. They still do it. Um, and so actually typically Ed will pick them up as he sees them out, but like Kirsty then will go out and like the main drags
and pick them up cuz they're all popping up there again. >> Yeah. >> Um, so she was out this afternoon, but she's off to do that. >> Cool. >> And in close session, I can fill you in on what I filled Dave in earlier on his email that was before yours. >> Gotcha.
>> Anything else? >> Okay. Do I have a motion to go into? Oh, you want to open to the to the press first? Okay. Open to the press. >> Jeff >> Jeff Gray Cornelius hyphenated. Jeffrey with a G.
>> Cornelius. Yeah. Gray. G R A Y. >> And then Matt. >> Thank you. Just as a a forside, um Matt was a young planner with the firm that did our downtown zoning.
>> So he has the connections of having gone through everything >> in the picture who accepted. >> Yes. >> Which really isn't our award, it's their award. They did the work. >> Yes. >> But yes. So if there is nothing else
with the press, then do we have a motion to go into close? >> Yes. She gets to watch the game. >> We I'm I'm not keeping you long. You'll get there before half. >> Closest TV. Go. >> Second live. Okay.