Good evening everyone. In accordance with the open public meeting act notice this meeting has been sent to the retrospect I posted on the bulletin board in Burrow Hall. I see um
no too much. It's okay. Um the first item on the agenda this evening is public comment period. We are going to allow the public to speak that's in the room first and then we will go to Zoom. So anyone that would like to speak to the public, please
stand, say your name and your address at this time. There's a five minute time that join. Okay. Okay. Pamela Fisk. Um, what else did I need to say? Address 260 Kings Highway East. I would
write like to write to read this letter that I've actually written to the mayor and the commissions rather than make a speech about it because then I'm on focus. I start with a quote. The environment is no one's property to destroy. It's everyone's responsibility
to protect from a Middle Eastern writer called Moheif Agard. And the letter is about Elizabeth Place and the green space. Dear May, Mayor Sidell, Commissioner Troy, and Commissioner Cole, now that
Elizabeth Place is completed and awaits its residence, I am again writing to express my deep concern over the small green space, the pocket park that should be not that quite separately from the Snowden development is designated by the
burough for parking. This contradicts environmental sensibilities, not only the grass area, but also several trees, and would rob the center of town and the inhabitants of the 20 units that not only do not
have gardens, but also do not have balconies for enjoying outdoor experience, of precious green space, and recreational area. There are 29 parking spaces allocated at the 20 new homes, including three reserved in the Burough
Hall lot, and there will be additional spaces available when police vehicles move over to their new building. Moreover, some agreement could surely be negotiated with Verizon with use of the empty parking lot behind its building. Alternatively, an easement to use the
empty lot could be acquired by eminent domain and paid for from revenue from parking there. So there can be no excuse for disastrous action that would forever eliminate the grass green space from this part of town. In addition, on Thursday, July the
1st, 2025, during a heavy rainstorm, the junction of King's Highway and Haden Avenue represent the confluence of the river's cabin and King's Highway with water mapping up to the door of Starbucks, which had to close. Such flooding has
become a regular feature in town and paving another grassy surface will add to the problem. The overpaving of Hudenfield is a topic that planners have pointed out in the process of revising the master plan. Destroying the green space/pocket
park will also be very expensive. Much fill would be needed to raise the area to match surrounding grade should the grade not grab along with the cost of paving, lighting, and maintaining the parking lot. Perhaps more important, the former Snowing parking lot was largely
unused as shown in various aerial photos of the lot over many years. And I can attest to that. I used to go and practice driving my bike there. There was never there were very few people parked there. I'm informed that it's too late to discuss the issue now because quote this
decision has been made. I would respond that it's never too late to remediate the poor decision and suggest that we all, not just the commissioners, have a grave responsibility to ensure the safety of the green space. Yours
respectfully, Pamela Fisk. Thank you. Go ahead, Dan. You have the microphone. Speak to us so we can hear you and they can hear from. My name is Jack Van Dalen. I live at 254 Kings Highway East in Hadenfield.
I certainly want to echo everything that Pam just said in what's in her letter. I had a chance to read it earlier. Um, I want to add also that there's a federal historic preservation easement part of that property.
It's something you can't ignore. It's a it's an easement in perpetuity to preserve it exactly the way it is. You got to be aware of it. Um, I think Pam has expressed very very
pointedly the reasons why you shouldn't go ahead with a parking lot. I don't know if that's designated by the burrow, whatever that means, but to the extent that the burrow has had an inclination inclination to turn that green space,
that little pocket park into a parking lot. It's a damn fool idea. You shouldn't have it. Uh, next I'd like to just point out that I
checked on your minutes today and we're still a few months behind. Better than it used to be. Um, but there are no close session minutes posted on your website. And I don't understand that. The closed session minutes are required by law and
they're public documents. Now, you do post the public session minutes on your website. Why not the close session minutes? Uh, mayor, you and I discussed this a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago, I guess. You said you would bring it up with the
other commissioners. Um, it's a public document. They shouldn't they shouldn't be hidden. Public shouldn't have to make a open public records act request to get at the close session minutes. You have an obligation to prepare them. do prepare them. Again, a few months late,
but um there's no reason to hide them. Another comment I have is the resolution you have on the agenda today for a close session meeting. It's very vague. What personnel matters are you going to discuss? Now, the discussion of course
can be privileged. It can be in a closed session. But if there are categories of personnel matters or you know general identification or what personnel matters you're going to discuss it should be listed in your agenda.
Also what contracts you said you're going to retire to close session to discuss contracts. What contract? The discussions can be privileged if necessary. I mean anything just because you're allowed to retire to close session to discuss something like
contracts doesn't mean you have to and at least tell us what are the contracts you're going to discuss. Uh lastly on a personal note um bikes and scooters on the sidewalk. I was almost run down
by a pretty fast biker coming across uh Haden Avenue at Kings Highway today and I walked to work. I I my office is a few blocks downtown across from Pasarellos's
so I walk to work every day and bad. I still see a lot of bikers and a lot of lot of bikers on those electric scooters. Uh there really should be more enforcement. Not as bad as it was before you passed
the ordinance prohibiting biking on sidewalks downtown, but it needs more enforcer. Thank you for your time. Is there any questions? Commentary.
Thank you. Okay. Hello everyone. My name is Miriam Sessions. I live at 34 Walnut Street, which I have for over 45 years now.
I'd like to make a comment, see if perhaps a work order needs to be put on the records, but I live in that first block of Walnut Street where the nice new police station is being constructed.
looks very nice. But to put in some of the underground workings, there were some openings dug and there are a lot of trucks that go on Walnut Street for home remodeling and
building for the um for many other purposes. And I've noticed that the surface is starting to dip and I'm concerned that perhaps it's going to open sink holes.
It's dipping more noticeably each week. So, whatever you guys have in your pocket to put in a work order to please get that done because it's not going to be too pretty with a nice new police
station and big holes in the street. Also, what brought me into this meeting was that I had gone to the post office yesterday morning. I like to write checks for my bills and
I go into the post office and put it in what I think is a safe place. And I found somebody asleep under one of the tables in there. And I was told this has been an ongoing
problem. There's some logic to it. It's open. People are seeking shelter. they can go in there and just go and sleep. However, into my tax bill that
came today. The first three items on there and I was talking to some of the employees of the post office, they say when they come in in the morning that that whole building is that that
open space is trashed. There's packages, crumbs, liquids all over the floor. We They don't know what the liquids are because there are no bathroom facilities in that
portion of the post office, but there are three code ordinances. The first three on this list might be applied to some way of remedying the situation,
bringing charges against someone. They're all right here. Litter, improper disposal of waste. We have them on the books already. I implore you for the work for the safety of the
workers in the post office, for customers that go in there unaware that there might be something slippery on the floor and prevent them from, you know, going feet up and clunking their head on the tile floor
and then there'll be a gorgeous lawsuit. Please consult the codes that you already have and try to remedy this situation. Okay, that's what I came Thank you.
It's even been together. Yeah. One at a time. No, it's okay. Sarah Mcmman, uh, 325 Rileywood Avenue along with John Guarino from 325 Rileywood Avenue. Um, we want to echo the comments about transparency uh in
minutes and delay to minutes being published. We ask uh that the minutes from the July 14th meeting be put online along with the presentation of the communications plan that was made at that meeting for those of us who were
unable to attend. We want to log our objection to the proposal for 180 foot cell tower to be built on the public works. and in the call for transparency want to
request full transparency from this committee so that there's public information around the rationale why the cell tower was selected versus small cell options which I believe were the results of the survey that was uh
commissioned back in May. Also, we request transparency and openness to share any environmental impact assessment reports, any residential devaluation
reports, any aesthetic reports as long with risk assessments for both Rileywood Avenue and Mount Well Park, including fall risk, flood risk for the Cooper River uh tributary.
where the that runs adjacent to the public works. Yeah. Thank you. Anyone else? All right. Good evening. My name is Deborah Garwood. I live at 243 Lake Street. I
would like to uh endorse fully endorse the comments that Pamela Fisk and neighbor made about the green space behind Burough Hall. I agree that it should be kept a green space and hope you make every effort to follow through with that even if there are other plans
at the moment and I would like to echo themes of quality of life issues in the historic district of course all over town but quality of life issues that uh where parking will affect the residents of Lake Street when the Boxwood property
is made into a bed and breakfast as well as a restaurant. I hope that alternatives to street parking can be found by utilizing free spaces, unused parking spaces close to that area in behind commercial spaces.
And um oh, what was the other thing? I had one I had one other thought uh maybe for another time. uh but concerns about quality of life regarding the environmental the Cooper River area that is uh especially sensitive as we know
the riparian banks of rivers. So I hope you take that into consideration. Again these are all quality of life issues for residents when the town is making big plans. Uh please keep us in mind and thank you for hearing our concerns. Oh I'm sorry. I just remembered my other
my other thought on the uh quality of life. So when there are human- centered problems in town, can we find humane solutions to those problems? So at the post office, for example, uh I'd like to make a suggestion that perhaps the human relations commission could work on
something like a regional plan. So what not only Hadenfield but other communities that are no doubt dealing with an unhoused person's issues. If something like that could be developed for not only Hadenfield but the surrounding areas the residents would
benefit and the unhoused peoples could find social services that they need and it would uh eliminate the idea that criminalization would solve the problem when it might exacerbate the problem uh for everyone. Thank you.
Hi everyone, Dave Jenowski, 621 Center Street. Uh, thanks for the opportunity to address you today. Um, I'd like to address two topics. The first topic is the proposed temporary cell tower. I put temporary in scare quotes because I'm
not sure how one can possibly build a 180 foot structure that is temporary. But the temporary cell tower uh that you're now putting out to bid at 555 Center Street, um this is precisely the site that the town so swiftly and nearly
uniformly opposed over four years ago. Um Mr. Troy was a commissioner then. Um I'm sure he remembers it well. Um, mayor and commissioner, I I know you're new to the body, but not necessarily new to the issue, but I would just invite um the
commissioner's um attention to the fact that in nearly a month's time, we amassed 600 signatures in opposition to the cell tower at that site. It was near uniform and swift opposition. And we
noted a myriad of reasons why that tower should not go at that site. one of which um I don't believe has ever been rectified and that is the deed restriction from Camden County on that parcel of land. It is for parks and
recreation. It is not for private commercial enterprise. Um we also noted the fact um that there are um certain definitions of what public use constitutes under the zoning code and a
cell tower does not constitute public use under the term of the code. Um a cell tower again is a private commercial enterprise as I understand it and I know we're modifying and and evolving the master plan but our code defines public
use in three manners. One is parks and recreation. Two is municipal use. And three is DRPA or the PCO high speed line. That's it. You get plays and players. You get soccer fields and baseball fields. And you get the municipality being able to store
material, salt, and the like. Um there is a prohibition on dual use of uh zones within the burrow and citing a 180 foot cell tower for private and commercial enterprise within a parcel that's
already zoned perhaps as public use perhaps still deed restricted per Camden County is just wrong and it's impermissible. Um the bureau at the time seemed to hear our concerns and we appreciated that. We then went through a large process in which many of us stayed
looped in. Here I am now four and a half years later. Um, and we're still talking about it. But I'm concerned because I feel like the past four and a half years was an entire dog and pony show to get to exactly where we were initially. Your
own consultant, Cityscape, I was here for the meeting, said that we do not want to put sight towers in areas that are in low-lying places in any town. Here you're proposing to put it practically in a valley, 555 Center
Street. It's one of the lowest areas in our town. Two, in an area that's surrounded by trees. We don't want to do that either. That's a special unique problem to Hadenfield. We have gorgeous trees. We have a, you know, tree commission. That's great. Um, and three, we want to avoid deed restricted lane.
Well, congrats. We've hit the trifecta because, as your own cityscape consultant had said, this would offend each one of those criteria which would otherwise prevent the sighting of a tower in this location. And yet, for some reason, we're putting out a bid for
that precise spot. It just makes no sense. I I really don't understand it. And frankly, um, you know, I'll add another right there is the Mountwell, um, T-ball fields that all of our kids have grown up playing T-ball around, you're about to renovate a brand new
playground, and you're going to have this shadow of this 180 foot tower over everything. And you know what? Like all the health concerns that were memorialized in the code when all this was coming out in 1997, okay, was what do we have then? 1G, 2G. I don't think
we were at 3G. We're now at 5G. Um, I don't think I'm wearing a, you know, a tinfoil hat to say that I have reasonable concerns about the health of my children who are, you know, se just turned 7, 9, and 12 as they're still developing and we're going to be like
bask in the glow of this 180 foot cell tower. It's just incredibly unnerving and unacceptable. The second item that I want to address is related and that's the ordinance. I would advise and ask the commission to take a very close look at this proposed ordinance, which
frankly resembles a phone book. It is it it dwarfs the size of your neighboring town's telecommunication ordinances. I don't know why it's over 30 pages long. It seems like 10,000 different ways of saying yes to the telecoms. The whole point of doing the ordinance, which
myself and others in this room advocated for, was that the burrow could rest control over the process from the telecommunication companies. We are a 2.8 square mile town. Um, may I have just one more moment? We we are a 2.8
square mile town of 12,000 people. The last census had us at the top cile of most densely populated towns in New Jersey. Why not have that information in our telecommunications ordinance to say, "We have unique concerns as the Bureau of Hadenfield as to where we're going to
site this equipment. We don't want it falling on houses. We don't want it falling on municipal equipment. We don't want it falling on playgrounds. Maybe we only want base stations on top of, for example, a new police building or on top of some other location or repeaters on
telephone poles. That's what we want to do." the telecommunications ordinance of 1997 or 96. Yep. It did reserve the right to the burrow and to other towns to maintain control over their zoning codes. And I would just ask that you look at that
ordinance with a very close eye and not farm the entire thing out to cityscape so that the telecommunication companies cannot just come in and put it anywhere they want. My last comment. Okay. You have to circle back, but you have to give other people.
Well, at the planning board meeting, cityscape said it can go anywhere in town. There's no zoning restriction. Put it into the code. This is our opportunity. I'll see the Thank you, John Kazinski, 301 East Summit Avenue. I I guess I owe the entire community a
profound apology because we fought tooth and nail to expose why the 150 ft Verizon tower in the middle of Mountwell Park was a bad deal
for this community. It was poorly conceived. It was poorly vetted. And at one point we had the governing body agree with us and the proposal was withdrawn.
Now we are going to see the erection of not 150 foot tower in the exact same spot but a 30 180 foot tower in the exact same spot. So what's the takeaway? Kazinski keep your mouth shut because it
only gets worse over time. the the deed restriction on this property cannot be ignored. In 1982, county gave this land to us for the
purpose of park and recreation and the deed restriction is unmistakable and I'm going to read it. The app foration lands must be used for recreation purposes and cannot be sold at public or private sale
absent the express written consent of the grantor Camden County Park Commission and the state of New Jersey to Department of Environmental Protection Green Acres Program. And what did we do? We sent the burough
administrator and the solicitor without any notice to the public in to inroply subdivide that property to create a uh zone for public works that was
specifically carved out at the behest of Verizon because that's where they were going to set site the tower. But you have to pay attention to what that park represents. It's a green space that starts all the way at Crows Woods,
follows the course of the Cooper River to our border at Grove and Cooves Mill and goes all the way to the Delaware River. The the Commissioner Cole, you just pointed out, you just posted about some trail or something that you're
interested in developing. Well, guess what? There could be a cell tower in the way. So, there goes your trail. The Cell phones rely on line of sight sight technology. And as
Dave said, Cityscape told us in hollows is not where you put your cell towers. That's why this thing has to be 180 ft tall because it has to get out of that valley. has to clear the tree canopy and
then it can finally start transmitting its signals. We saw from Verizon how you could see the 150 foot tower from everywhere. You could see it in Cherry Hill. You could see it all over this community. You add another 30 ft. You're
going to be able to see it everywhere. Where? Right in the middle of that green belt. That space that was left to us in trust for recreation, for parks, wasn't set there for infrastructure. It wasn't set there to
do the bidding of corporate America so everybody can have their phones connected and get their five speed and 6G and and so on and so forth. The final thing I would like to to point out is actually two things.
One of the things that we exposed about the Verizon proposal was that there was a secret deal to do an end around the board of education's easement to get down to 555 Center Street. And so what
the burrow offered Verizon was the walnut street entrance, the so-called emergency entrance. And so that's where the vehicles would come and go to service that cell phone tower. Now in this current proposal, I haven't seen
anything that addresses how site access is going to be occurred. is is this time now we're flying under a right and approach the BOE and ask for that easement on 555 Center Street or we going to keep this burrow only and still
go in through the walnut entrance. Finally, don't peace don't be fooled by what temporary means. I'm going to point to two great examples. In 1936, there was a flood in Johntown, Pennsylvania. They imposed a liquor tax in
Pennsylvania to help for relief of the flood. You go buy liquor across the river, you're paying that tax. The other one, last example, World War II, they built a Pentagon-shaped building along the banks
of the Ptoac River. The plan at the end of World War II was to tear that building down. You can go visit it today. Anyone else in the public in the room? We'll move to online. Anyone make comment?
I speaking loudly because the mic's all the way over there. Seeing none, uh we'll close public comment. Uh, anybody want to address anything that was spoken to? I mean, I would give you guys first,
right? Your first refusal. I have a couple items, but I can go after you. Sure. No. So, I'm going to tackle them in the order I think they were presented. Uh so Pam, Jack
and uh yeah, no Pam and Jack really talk about the green space for Barhalt behind Barhalt. So when I ran um very much not wanting to lose the green space idealistically thinking the same things
that are in this letter of Verizon will give us access to their parking lot or we could do some sort of shared service. Eminent domain is a tool of last last resort. It is as permanent a decision to
make as paving something and that is not used lightly, very costly, as costly as losing this. I will say that uh in the planning and so one of the things I learned uh when I became a commissioner back in November
was having these discussions interviewing the past past uh commissioners where did we get here you know from all the planning and one of the things I learned is we didn't even own that green space it was sold to us we bought it from the residents who live
there um with the express purpose that parking was going to happen is that to make that project a reality county. So Deborah, you talked about greater good. There is a greater good. The affordable housing part is probably the greatest good for the entire community. Not the
community of 20 residents of of of that and not even the threeb block radius of of this green park. The greater community of Hadenfield needed that affordable housing to be built. Part of that affordable housing deal was buying land to make parking available. the
businesses around Barrel Vault right now, things that didn't exist when that project started. Wildfather brings a lot of traffic in there. The post office has actually increased their traffic uh as well because it is one of the few places that
like the UPS store has 24-hour access to your mail. Uh so there's there's a need for that parking to take away Snowden. We have to replace parking for the big business at 41 South Hen Avenue. These were all part of the plan
to understand that it was understood that that parcel was sold for the purpose of parking. We're it's not it's a great cake and eat it too kind of scenario that that we just can't afford as community. Uh so I
it's it's it's it is Julie in my opinion. on the next topic of um cell towers. Well, I I'll get back to some of the other things um for cell towers. Um one thing is that I have
asked and been been repeatedly told at the council mayors at the um the municipalities down in Atlantic City for citystate consultants and and from my own reading is health isn't an argument. It's a set of science.
No, you can disagree. The state of New Jersey says it is not an argument that we can accept in the judgment of cell phone usage at all. So, it has to be taken off the, you know, taken off the top um from us legally. We just can't
even entertain that as an argument um from um then it comes down to trust. When that Verizon tower was proposed, that was the solution for cell service in Hatfield.
A lot of work, a lot of work that Dave, you have and John, you have. We we we actually stopped to incorporate even more feedback from both of you into the ordinance she now just ran against in the master plan than she ran against
because there's a trust issue here that that is temporary. What's not temporary is the water tower is coming down and it is the largest source of cell signal in Hadenfield and if the cell tower the water tower comes down without a relocation of those cell services we
don't have cell service in Hadenfield. It's gone from terrible to abysmal to nearly non-existent. We'd be derate not to have a temporary structure while we incorporate all the feedback and the master plan go out to bid and build a
real new cell network in town that fits with our aesthetics with our our desires of more small cell service and versus tall listening to the public and incorporating that into a design into an RP process. We are in an emerging
situation of losing our cell service as a town without that tower. Is that tower there forever? No. Is there it isn't? I could just say that today it it could be two years. It could be three years. However long it takes for us to replace
the quality of service while that exists. Why was it a good spot 5 years ago? Why is it a good spot now? Because it's next to the thing that has to come down. It's the closest area. So we asked like why is Segate such a wide producing thing?
Well, ask them. They said that in the presentation. Adamfield unlike other towns is topographically very diverse. We have we can't have just one solution that broadcasts across a flat town. We can't have one solution
that kind of covers uh large and small areas because our elevation change is great. And that's why we have to have a myriad of solutions to cover all the different spots of town. When you were a kid, you slid down Center Hill or Washington Hill and it was a really long
ride. Well, guess what? As that is the same line of sight issue that a cell service has. It can't go up a hill. It has to go through a hill or over a hill. And so this is what the plan is. It's long term. Everybody wants it now. We
put out a plan to get to an ideal with a temporary solution that at least keeps us from the catastrophe of not having cells. Period. Going through my lists of um the post office.
It's unfortunate that um that homeless don't really have a lot of options and so the post office is one of the places to go. You can and and this kind of goes to bicycles too being on the sidewalk. You can legislate it. You can try to
enforce it with the size of the police force that we have with the and and I really applaud Commissioner Troy for publishing the things on Tuesday or for convincing convincing us as part of our communic communication plan. Publish all the things that the police do in a week.
Um there's a lot of more important things than chasing a homeless person out of the post office. So talking to the post office, why is it open? Because they have customers. They have customers that want 24-hour posts. They could have a key service that only
allows their customers in the door. They don't do that. Why? It costs money. Just like it cost money for us to hire two more cops to go police just the the police station. It's a problem that needs a lot more resources than we have and everybody has to help. when it comes
to when it comes to the the post office, they could put a defob lock and just hand it out to the customers so only they have access to their mailboxes that are inside. But they can do them and that's okay. That's their decision. But can we pick up the slack on that
location and then benches downtown and the gazebo and the gazebo down in Crows Woods and probably 15 or 16 other places that are safe havens for people that are just trying to like spend a night. No, we don't have the cops for that either. So, when it comes to quality of life and
Deborah, I'm going to point to Lake Street specifically because you've come a few times about parking for that. Lake Street's bigger than like the five or 10 houses that are closest to Boxwood Hall. As a quality of life survey and
issue specifically to Lake Street and all the houses on that address, we just approved the installation of two stop signs, one at Friends and then one at Colonial. Why? Because the bigger quality of life issue wasn't parking at a restaurant, it was people speeding down the street. And we've addressed
that. So, when it comes to greater goods, I'm I'm a I'm a science fiction person. Um, and I'm a little aggravated tonight. It has nothing to do with this. Um, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. And as a government, we're here to address the needs of the
many. And I'll use and I'm not picking on you about Lake Street, but the needs of the many. Every resident of Lake Street has an issue with cars speeding down Lake Street. And we've addressed that. Can we then and and that's easy because it's people and their livelihood versus car has to hell with you. Just
slow down and stop at stop signs. But when it comes to the residents closest to Boxwood, well, we have people in town that come every meeting blew in the face about the preservation of Boxville. So, that's been addressed. The redevelopment plan was established. A project was
picked. That project is going to have a bed and breakfast at night and in the morning and then in the evening to supplement some of that. They're going to have a steakhouse. And yes, there's going to be parking. And guess what? Catfield's really packed. And there's a there's two public lots within probably a three minute walk from that
restaurant. And people are lazy. And we can't government. We can't uh we can't legislate that either. If they want to park right outside the restaurant, they're going to. And the neighbors are going to complain. And then we could talk if it gets if it really affects the
quality of life, not the I'm worried about it is going to affect the quality of life, then we can adjust. There could be a no parking, there could be a no right hand turn, no left hand turn. We can adjust to the real problems, not to the worry problems. But the real problem with speeding, and we've addressed it,
the worry problem, sometimes you have to have the problem become emergent before you can actually deal with it. And that's not a problem because Boxwood is actually empty and the only traffic is the school right now and we can address it when that happens and make
adjustments. But it's not like you can't park here because I live here. Well, they live here too and they have a restaurant and that's where quality of life, your quality of life versus their quality of life collide. And that's where the governor has to kind of sort it all out. Um,
all right. I've talked enough. Uh, I'll touch on just some of these things. Uh, trying to keep it short. I'm not taking a cheap shot, Dave. Um, you could go on. Just stop. Um, so, uh, as it applies to, uh, enforcement of biking, uh, Chief has
done a good job of that. Uh, just recently, uh, we even shared, uh, and I took some heat over this, uh, some videos of, uh, kids that were, they started out as bike bratty and turned much more than that. Uh there's a um
there's investigation underway on that still trying to identify that. But again, you're dealing with um in a lot of these cases as we're finding out they're um below the age of 18. So there's some um uh there's some restrictions about how you uh report
that information and also kind of pursue that information. But there is action underway on that. um the um the uh homeless uh issue in with the post office. Uh you know, this has been a a topic that I've been pursuing and and
doing a little bit research on over the last year here. Um it's uh it's a a nationwide prog uh problem. If you look at it uh nationwide, you have a range of 550 to 600,000 homeless people per year. to pretty uh over the last five years
probably if you go back further than that you'll see the same thing in Camden County it's 550 to 600 people per year with the exception of 700 and some in the year 2023 um so uh you know and I agree that um there should be um you know levers to
pull to kind of help you know these folks which there are there are eight centers in Cameron County within a 5 10 minute drive that uh we um have offered to take people who we've paid for them to go there. We've helped them get on trains. We've delivered them in cars.
We've offered to call taxis. Um but in order for for people to get help, they have to either want the help or there needs to be a compelling event to get them to help. And one of the things that I'm looking is you need to have a mechanimis a mechanism in place to to
create a um a thoughtful um and humane yet meaningful compelling event to get them to do something and take the next step. Uh because in a lot of cases, as we found this week, there are some people who have spent a long
time homeless and I just think glad handing is not going to help there. Um the cell phone tower, uh again, so uh Dave, you and I met uh before I was commissioner. I visited uh you at your uh at your house and walked your
property there four and a half years ago, let's call it. And um you know I and and John I know you've been passionate about this topic coming here. So I I kind of I resent the implication that the uh the study was window dressing. Uh you know
we took that opportunity to uh get the input from uh you know any resident who had filled the survey. I think we had a total of 460 respondents which is not bad. We had two live in session uh meetings here where we we uh
we were getting feedback from people and keeping updated along the way. But to my earlier point, we do have a compelling event, which is that tower is definitely coming down. And uh, you know, we've been put on notice by New Jersey American Water, the owner of that, that um, we have to start making a movement
on that because somehow high water, we're going to lose our our cell phone coverage. And, uh, you know, and you do have to put a temporary uh, structure in place. Um, and you know, the point of of
are things temporary or not? Um, you know, you can, uh, I've seen a lot of, you know, six years in the military, Dave, you probably have seen the same. I've seen a lot of things put in place as temporary structures that you'd say there's no way this is going to come back down. And then six months later,
the end of deployment, it's gone. So, I know you can do it. It's not that complicated. Um, you know, so I think you to point there just has to you have to take a leap of faith here and trust that we're going to not ignore what the residents say resoundingly that they
feel a mix of monopoles and uh, you know, repeaters and um, small poles is a right solution for the town. I think data supports that as well just because there's complexities primarily of the tree coverage in town which is unique to Hadenfield because if you look at all
the towns in South Jersey that uh have earned the designation of Tree City USA we're one of very few in Camden County. We may be the only one in Camden County and very very few in South Jersey. That's a distinction 31 years in a row by the way. So um you know that is a
complexity that that we have versus you know say my hometown of Hatton Heights for example. Um and I think those are the topics that I wanted to cover. Thank you.
One more. So John and Sarah you guys apply 14 minutes. minutes have to be paired, read, and then approved at the next work meeting. And that's something that since we've been commissioners, we have approved our minutes at every meeting. We haven't had
it. We can't have the July 14 minutes up because they haven't been approved because we haven't been in session to approve them. Uh this is the first meeting. We don't take action at work sessions. That's my promise. Unless it's absolutely necessary. Minutes aren't necessary. they they happened at action
meet so there hasn't even been a month. Um so I just wanted to point that out. But when it comes to Jack's uh point of private or or close session minutes versus so there's agendas and minutes
and so for agendas agendas are things that we can talk about in public that the public wants to share their ideas and opinions with us and that's an agenda. you're not in the private meeting. So, it's not a vagueness. It's not a reason
to come out because you're not participating in that. So, we in the agenda, we say it's going to be personnel. By the time you leave here tonight, you'll know exactly why we're going into private sess or in into close session because we've made it a habit to
tell the public and recorded in the minutes exactly why we're going into session. Personnel is we have a lot of holes in boards. this whole pack we're going to be talking about tonight. Sustainability board, the the backyard chicken advisory committee, the
recreation committee, the human relations commission. We have openings and we've interviewed people and tonight we're going to share to each other who we think would be best to join the boards, the volunteer boards of the organization. That's the personnel contract. We have a
settlement agreement on something and that's something we have a settlement agreement uh pertaining to. Can I say it? No. No. Okay. I can't even say it because why can't we say it? Because it's litigation. It's ongoing. It's ongoing litigation. Even saying it, we can't until it comes
out. This is no different than the police under an active burglary investigation. They say, "We had a burglary and we're investigating it." And people say, "Well, what street? Where? What did they take?" I I can't tell you those things. and you're frustrated as hell. But we will tell you
when we come out and we actually have to then approve it. We've also made the habit to say in our last session in private we talked about this and now it's in the public. That's why I had to look at the because this topic it's active litigation and even the topic of
litigation we can't say yet make the face. I'm I'm looking at my solicitor who just gave me advice. I can't go against that. Well, you can stand up. You give feedback. Can you give me feedback on those privileges to retire to close sessions are optional?
No, not all of them. Yes, they are. You don't have to use any of them if you don't want to. At a minimum, you could say we're going to retire to close sessions to discuss whatever the case is. Well, it's the name of the case. But the name of the case is names people, your fellow residents, who could
be embarrassed by it. So, they have a right to actually not be exposed when they have litigation against the burrow until it's settled. I mean that's my feeling you I mean you what are you a lawyer or judge litigation a complaint is a public do all these most litigation is public
anything that's filed in court it's public okay I'm going I'm not going against the advice of my I'm afraid that's your call s gives you Oh no I just made the call I'm not going against his advice
I mean I'm just not because I don't know what bad can happened from that and that's why we hire a professional to keep me from stepping in and that's why I looked at her. We just disagree on this but I just
made I made the call. I we can't even say what it is. It's just it's a litigation matter that's very active, very touching charge today. Um we have another five So I appreciate the way Dave explained a
lot of things. His rationale really uh drives with me. So a few of these topics I'm walking into. For example, the for example the the uh 108 foot tower. I too am not thrilled with this. Yes, I I have uh conversations with the water
trail group and we would love to set a a walking trail along Cooper River. A 180 foot telecommunications pole would not be ideal for that site, but I do trust that this is a temporary solution. The alternative to not having it, losing
cell service when we have people who work from home, god forbid, someone sees a crime and they need to report it and they don't have cell reception, they can't they can't get a hold of our police department. the alternative to not having this temporary solution I
think is uh really risky. So, as much as I'm not happy with the height and the um appearance, I don't see another way. So, there's that. Um the green area by Snowden Apartments, I
had fantasies of turning that into a playground or a vegetable garden or something for that for the folks there to get to enjoy. Um, I'll have to read a little bit to understand why it is uh too late in the game to be able to do anything about that. Um, but I will look
into that and and hope to give you a better response. If there's any way we can have that conversation going forward and I have any influence on it, I understand your point of view and I I um I agree with it. And then the topic around homelessness, this is something that we have been discussing. Um, it I
just want to express that homelessness is a really complex topic. I've done quite a bit of research on this um both over the last couple of weeks and I've spoken to state homelessness prevention team, the countyy's homelessness prevention team. I've spoken to several nonprofits that um that have expertise
on this topic and every single one of their advice is to not punish by jail because it's it exacerbates the problem. Um and it is regional and I also spoke to Collinswood Commission. they actually want to help us with this with this
topic. They would love to collaborate and I know other towns would as well, you know, folks like Morristown. So, we have alternatives that we haven't fully exhausted yet that I would love to look into. Um, and I'm happy to work on this in in a really collaborative way, but I understand that it can be um alarming to
walk into a situation where you you were not expecting to see someone. So, I understand and appreciate that point, but I it is really complex and there's no easy solution to it. Um, aside from that, I'll echo most of Dave's points. I thought, um, the way he explained his, uh, reasoning and rationale
uh, sat really well with me. So, thanks for that. You done with public comment? Yes. Moving on to the next item on the agenda is to discuss the communication plan. Uh we've been talking about this for a couple of months now and Joanna has gone
back after each of our meetings to make uh amendments and changes to the plan. She provided you after our last meeting with um the updated version as well as our emer example of our internal
emergency communication plan and samples that she has prepared based off of our last discussion. having specific samples for uh the lieutenants to be able to post to the app if
her or I are are not available. Um is there any other discussion changes ideas that you would like to address in the current communication plan that's been presented to you?
uh when we do publish this and our intention is to one take it into practice and actually use it as a tool um institutionalize the way we communicate with amongst ourselves and with the public and our various
stakeholder groups. Uh one thing I would want to acknowledge that it is not yet comprehensive. It is the first step in getting our thoughts out there of how we want to build a communication plan with all of with with the public and with the town and then continue to iterate on it
as we learn more and as we make mistakes and you know figure out new ways to to uh talk about it. For example, you'll see in there that list serves are something TBD. We have not yet figured out list serves but something we want to do because there's a lot to communicate
um and Facebook or the app are not always the right forum to share out information. So we want to start list serves but it's not we haven't figured out the details but I don't think we should wait until we figure it out to get something out there so people can
start understanding how we think about communication overall. So that's my two two cents on that. Now I just thank you for putting in the work. Uh it is a living document. So we're going to be learning the area that specifically will grow is the template area. Um and for
the public these are templates on if if there is a street closure. What do we tell everybody? You know the streets the the opportunity, you know, the alternatives so that people don't get lost when it comes to a house burglary. There are things when the police have to
be vague. with the police can be very specific. That's one. Um when uh traffic advisories as you see, you know, just even on Monday, we're giving out weekly because, you know, in response to people say every time I go to turn down
this street and I got to go somewhere else, it's moving every day. Yes, it's moving every day. So, we're trying to work with Pioneer Pipe and American Water and the county and make sure that we have a consolidated schedule so that we can tell the public as part of this
communication plan. That's that's one of our promises. The only adjustment I would make to uh the section of who has Facebook and social media presence is that we don't want any more, right? So
that that any other organization that wants to follow their communication plan other than the almost standalone entities of the senior citizen center which is a very specific population, the library which is its own taxable entity, the partnership for Hadenfield which is
its own taxable entity and uh public safety. Everyone else goes through the communication officer. That's the only thing I'd like to see specifically mentioned in here. Um and this is a change. So, one of the things that that the three of us were
were have been discussing is we're not going to be here forever and what we need to leave is a guide map for the next group of people that are coming in because one of the one of the real, as I see it, as somebody who wasn't on the commission at
the time, is the last time the commission changed over. It was a wholesale change to the commission. one person had been here for seven months and shooting people and there was nothing left memorialized left behind really for them to follow. Thank God we have long-term employees because if if
we didn't everybody would have been guessing for a long time it took a long time to get their footing and we we're taking advantage of Frank's expertise and Sharon and Deanna chief to say what are the important things to write down
right now so we don't get into that boat again. So the communication plan is one of those things. Thank you guys. I I think it's it's going to be very helpful. Nothing. No, I think it's I think good. The the
one part that I was always about is just the exigency getting information out there as soon as possible. No, no, that's okay. Thank you. Have a good night. Um, so I think empowering the folks that they can use those templates, employ those templates quickly to get information out there is
the the one key point that I want to make. I think we've addressed nicely. Just a clarification, the the document that would get published would be when you do the resolution at the end of the month, the actual communication plan itself. Yes. The internal document would not be that
we do have an external that we can also put out. Okay. Um, for emergency conditions and then the samples would not get published. Those are were inter. Totally. Yeah. Just clarifying that we can make it available on the website. Maybe the samples, not the samples. Oh, the the the other two two documents.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And for the public sake, so you kind of understand what we just talked about is uh the state can declare a state of emergency and then everybody underneath the state. So if they say declare a state emergency in Cander Salem County, we we almost turn over our
communication a little bit to the state level or the county can declare an emergency and we can declare if there's a asking for something. Um and this just spells out who can talk to the press, who's the point of contact for emergency personnel, for mediator inquiries, or
you know, everybody on the street just curiosity. Um it it it spells out how the communication falls in an emergency. So um so and that's an internal document that that we do have an external one. We do have an external. It doesn't go
into that detail. No, that we can put out but it does give the bare bones of that. Okay. Um then I think we're good. So we can add a resolution on at the end of the month to approve that. Um okay. Next item on the agenda is to
talk about the comments from the planning board on tele on the telecommunication ordinance. Um so there were a couple of of conversations that went on. Um Susan did attend to be able to answer questions. Um some of the a
couple of the members of the boards were you know asking into what other towns were doing and why was ours why were we not necessarily following other towns. Susan's answer was that when they are hired that they um do something that's very specific to the town that they're
working for. They don't look at others to get samples. They're they're basing it off the information and the infrastructure that is existing and what should happen in that specific town. Um there was some discussion about specific
standards for height uh because there are standards in here for some of the infrastructure with heights but then there's some that it's not. Her answer was that you are looking at again because of the topography in town that
is more sight specific and that they have to provide um the reasoning and explanations as to why they feel it needs to be that height and then that is something that we go through and either approve or do not we either agree or disagree on their um analysis. Um, so
that it is there is not a specific standard for height for poles and stuff, for example, because it's going to depend on where they're built. Um, a pole in one section of town where the topography is relatively flat, you could probably put it lower, but
where you're dealing with other situations that you know have um a change in topography, you're going to potentially have to need to do it higher. Is it fair to say that you don't even have for telephone polls? Some are taller than others because by tree canopy or install them. Some are just
taller than others. Um I would say no for the telephone poles only because the telephone poles are really more for used for lights and stuff now. Um and that is not something that is needs to what's even for the lines that are put
on you know for any of the the other utilities. That's not something that needs to um respond to for example a cell phone or something. you don't have to have line of sight for that stuff. Okay. Um so I would say that's probably no. But again, in this type of thing where you're needing line of sight and dealing
with the trees and and buildings and things um you know and and the fact that again we reiterate the temporary tower is for a very specific situation only until that is resolved and that the
intention is once this ordinance is adopted to then go out to bid for that small cell distribution center throughout the community. dealing with that as the first step. Whereas hopefully the installation of that and
going out to bid on that will help be able to alleviate and be able to pull that tower away and not have it. It is tenatively in the ordin um bid document that it is um for one year then of the monthtomonth thereafter.
Um so hopefully we'll be able to follow through and get that done basis. There was questions about the timing um some of the times that were put in here and that there was there was a difference between the ML UL and the um misspecific
ordinance and Susan explained that there was a change and I did not write the date of it down but there was some there was a um some language that was passed um at the federal level um more recently which specifically states the time frames that are in there and that's why those are listed in here for Shot clock.
Ah, yeah. Shot clock. My bad. I forgot you were there. It makes sense. Um, so very forgettable. No, not at all. Just trying to remember everything that was said there. Um, and um, so then the one question that got brought up and and
what we talked about at the planning board was that there's potentially some amendments that we may be making on this based on some of the design standards that were brought to our attention that you may want to make. That the idea was to put this in place. we can always amend it as necessary. So, one of the issues was the approvals.
Um, collocations and equipment modifications on existing eligible support structures should be reviewed and approved by the burough zoning officer. All other personal wireless service facility applications shall be reviewed and approved by planning board. Um, just
clarifying that. So, the the thought was um collocation. So, if are we looking for everything? So even when we go to do the small cell that will go to planning board um because currently that's the
way everything is in here. So if we were to put a tower on top of the public building at the new you know the new police station everything would go here. So just confirming that that's what you want. Yeah. My assumption is unless it's going on an existing pole correct it has to go through plan.
Okay. I mean yeah. Okay. because there were so many different types. There were some styles that were very specific to historic district and then the public building ones. Uh yeah, planning board issues. Just wanted to make sure that's exactly what you wanted so that it does stay in
there that way. Did I miss anything? No, I think that's it. Okay. So, that is the update from the from the planning board. So, it looks like we are okay to go ahead and move forward with adoption at the end of this month.
with the promise that there will be amendments. Yes, we can amend. Correct. Yes. And I provided all of you with that document from Denver. Yeah. Yeah. So, um we can take a look at that. I did
not put on that on for discussion tonight. We can certainly talk about that in September. Okay. Manage trust that it's a living document. make adjustments as we come to an a decision that isn't already covered. Then we have to figure out a
way to get it covered and not just get it covered in a spot way, but in a added to the plan into the ordinance way. Okay? We don't know what we don't know until we run into it. Can't plan for it. And that's very similar to what Susan
said at as the uh solicitor for the planning board. You know, having first application go through will be what also kind of hits what what we might have missed that needs to be twer tweaked and amended.
Um, next item on the agenda is the 82525 meeting. Oh, I'm sorry. U property. Oh, yeah. Skipped over one. Um, you only have one thing this evening and it's actually um once I look into the details more um it's actually something they currently
do. It's their an it's their meeting. Um they don't really It's just a range. Yeah. They don't have a true dinner. They have some beverages and some finger food that they clean up after. So, um everything's fine. It is something that we have done before uh and should be go
good to go ahead and approve. They donated a building that's loved by a lot of people. They need to use it once a year. Yep. Yeah. I did read the document at some point in time like they did have that Well, we're talking about the Graange is the name of the building that the Maple
Kent Center is in. Uh, and the Graange is a community group uh that own the building when they're donating uh and once a year they have their annual meeting and they need a place to do it and they want to do it in the building. So, uh, but we have to grant them the
approval of that. Okay. Next item is the agenda. This was very useful the list of of of the events and and those that have costs and those that don't have costs to help speak to the public. I like it's an internal document. It's not in
the Okay. Um so uh for this meeting we have the second reading for the um pilot for the bankroft property. We have the second reading for the wireless telecommunication and the second reading for the repurposing of the funds for the
air packs as our ordinances. Uh most of the resolutions are our typical items, monthly items. We do have our three-year renewal for the Camb Municipal Joint Insurance Fund. Um we have our annual shared service agreement
with the school for the municipal alliance coordinator. Uh it is it was overlooked. They they had some personnel changes over at Virtua, but the lease agreement to pay us for the folks that they pick up with with the paramedics um
was due up in May. So, this is signing and agreeing, you know, to to continue to do that. There is an increase in the fees that we are getting. Um and we overlooked at the last meeting the award of the three bid for the tree three tree bids
and the approval of the outdoor marketing graphic display that was provided. We are requesting that we go out to bid for banking services. We have not done that in quite some time and we feel that the time is now to go out and see what we can get. Fton is our current bank. Fton is our current bank. Um,
you know, they have, you know, they took over from Republic and, um, we have not gone out for banking services in probably 17. Oh, there you go. Since 17. So,
yeah. So, it's it's time to go out. Um, we may end up in the exact same spot, you know, but at least it's go out and see what what's options are out there. Is there any questions on the agenda? Is there l I'm sorry. Were you going to say
did we actually have the language for 122, 123, and 124 in more detail the members? So the 124 would be the graange that you just approved. So it's not actually various the general event permit.
No, no. 124 is virtual health. Oh, I have two 124s on here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's why 1232. Yeah, there's a number. Sorry, I meant the second one. Second
the second run. Yes. So, the second run of 22, 23 and 24 just so that I can read detail. Yes, we can send them to you. You want the agreements themselves? Uh, or just the resolution? Just the resolutions. the food.
Yeah. The Modes alliance is one of the few joint boards between the board of education and there's a coordinator that coordinates that. So what we did is when when we recon right when we reconstituted the
municipal alliance 15 years ago maybe 16 years ago um the long-term coordinator um retired at at his he used to be the um
cannot think of the title he used to work at the school doesn't matter and he was retiring and so we needed to fill the position and they put it out as a stipen program. We initially paid the the full amount of the stipen. We reimbured the school. We then came to
an agreement where they were receiving most of the benefit of it of the programs. So they agreed to split the stipen in half with us. And so this is a formalization of that. Got it. So Got it. So it's it's actually I think that the I
believe now that it's actually three people acting. You've got one main person and two representing two of the other schools or two other level. Yeah. And then the elementary school. So it's actually three people for one
amount that we're sharing that there's different amounts between the three. I see. Okay. That sounds good. Yeah. Which is some point too. Yeah. I think there's a vacancy. Yeah. They just got they just signed the new person the elementary school list.
So they but they don't they don't come back teachers. So we shut down um and and the GIF is our liability and workman's comp and auto insurance. Um
that's the 122. Oh yeah, that's the renewal of the Camden County Municipal Joint Insurance Fund. So instead of going out and obtaining our own individual coverage for all of that, we are pulled in with other communities so that we get a
better value for our insurance. Great. That's interesting. There are a number of GIFs throughout the state um that take municipalities and school districts.
Do we already have information on this online like explaining what the GIF is? Yeah, probably not. Okay. But we can look at doing something. Yeah, itself has a link to that.
Um, maybe what we do is when Joanna does the the blast that goes out before explaining this, she can put a little blurb in there explaining what the the joint insurance fund is. I think that would help. Okay. We are a member of it. So, yeah, they do all of it. They did the
marketing, they do. Yep. Probably for all three that she asked. Thank you. Yep. Any other questions on the agenda? That was all the stuff. Will we need to go into close session then? We do. Oh, okay.
Um but before We do. We have a couple other minor things. Well, I just want to remind everyone in public, uh, tomorrow night we're meeting with the joint meeting with the school district. Uh, the board of education and the commissioners uh, and any changes
that may come out of the discussion uh, could change the ordinance. Pardon? Oh, in person only, Brad. There will be no Zoom options. the audience the the audience of people who can speak is too
big for either the school districts or ours system. So it has to be an inerson only meeting. We didn't plan for it because it has never happened I don't think in my 26 years we had that two entities have met public session.
Well it wasn't but it was it was way before Zoom. Yeah it was way before well there used to be the town meeting too. We had one that wasn't the full bankruptation. Oh, right. Way back. Yes.
That was fun. There's a story there. It's always a story. Um, okay. If there's nothing else on the agenda, the next item is PFH updates. They do have a an event. They are um assisting with the Dewali event this year.
So there is going to be a secret flash mob again. Um so when when that actually is going to occur is not public. But now it's a PFH event. Correct. That of the municipal lines. I mean instead
of a humanization commission, correct? Yes. And they are make they are also working on some other items. are putting lighting out. Um, you know, I similar to the lights that are put out during um
the Christmas season. Well, the Christmas season, I think they're putting all of those out. Um, and you have find it. Um, yeah. And then I know that he's also
working with the businesses to to do some items with the businesses when in exchange with during that I think they're trying to make it into a multiple day event trying to bring just education and knowledge in I believe
that's the last I heard about this today is doing all the actual organization of this. He's spearheading the whole business section of it. Okay. People are pretty. Well, that's nice that it's graduated
into an event that the businesses like think has value to them. So, that's great. I mean, one note on all these events is that um as I've been talking more with the businesses, they're excited because especially in a month like August, now I know Dewali is
not in August, but especially in a month like August where they have very little foot traffic and they may actually go multiple days without making a sale. So granted, they planned for this and they know in the holiday months that things are going to recover, but events are
really important to bring in foot traffic from outside of Hadenfield so that those businesses continue to thrive. Um, so it's it's a good thing that we're investing so much time into the all the events that we do downtown. Okay. Um, under other items for the
administrator, solicister commissioner, um, because the appointments and vacancies will be in close session as Dave explained earlier. Um, Dave, you wanted to talk, you just wanted to bring up again and so we can finalize and and make the public aware of the new format online because there were some questions
about public participation. So we are so the the proposal is to switch more to a zoom or to a um webinar type format online um for way to say view only online you can you
can watch it'll be the source of the recording uh but from a management of the meeting standpoint it is the risk of u zoom bombing which we had to stop the meetings uh for the
chief to get rid of people who are just creating mischief uh in our public meetings. uh as well as uh I mean I'll just say right I believe if you have something to say come and say
it you know if it's worth enough to say as these folks have all come tonight and shared their views share your views come it we we offer different opportunities we offer work sessions um as well as
action meetings as well as I think I just noticed we all respond to you know, like if you have something to share, you could share it. There's many avenues. Um the the work and the risk of the active participation online, not
saying that you can't watch it online, it's just the active participation of that. Um it's cumbersome. We actually have to keep somebody here who has authority enough to kick people out just just to have the meeting.
kind of waste wastes time, too. I'll second that. And I'll say that we are all quite accessible, right? Dave and I have office hours every week. I know Frank's forwards me emails within 24 hours, if not as quickly as we
possibly can. So, we are all on top of all the messages we get. Um, so it's for the sneaker season every day. So, there is no lack of access and this is not meant to cut off access. is just to protect the space of these meetings
so that we don't have to stop go stop go. And in case people are not familiar with Zoom bombing, this was a new topic, new thing for me. I've never been part of this, but it's people getting online and doing things that um they shouldn't be doing on a Zoom call. So um we just
want to prevent that. So I agree. I just did want to point out you do have the ability on a webinar to type in comments. So there is some communication. It's just not they can't speak.
But this way also if you have someone that is you know a speaker participating you know if one of our attorneys can't link it or something and they need to be you can make them as a speaker on it and they can still participate with us. Yeah, there's a guest speaker functionality to send that right
link to be part of the presentation side of it, but it's an invitation, not a public open link, right, for active participation. The open link is for everybody to just watch it, right, in real time. So, can people ask questions from that? They can type in questions,
but do they expect a response? Because I've also participated in these things where it's like, Bill, was that you? And like I mean spirals out of control people like you know just I mean like what is the expectation there that there's like you know a hundred questions of people going back and forth but somewhere in there is a real
question of so that's one of the reasons why we're here discussing it now to make sure that we know what the expectations are and and you all agree or majority of you agree to how you're moving forward so we can put it out to the public in advance of the September meeting and then also
meetings and then also Also, so staff knows what they're doing. So, you know, I would say, you know, it's certainly something we can state at the beginning of the meeting, whether it's, you know, myself for the work session or Dave during the action meeting, we can say, you know, the webinar, you are able to
ask questions in in the webinar chat box. Please limit chat to questions to be, you know, addressed to commissioners during the appropriate time. And we'll read them out loud. Yeah. And and then address them if there are any.
I I'll applaud Pam Fisk. Pamela Fisk tonight. She wrote the letter. She read it, but it was prepared. She's, you know, she could have sent it to us ahead of time, but she took me a few minutes. We all read it before the meeting started. But, uh, you know, that's always an opportunity, too, is get your thoughts
in in an order. And if somebody wrote me a letter, it said, "Could you read this into the record?" Sure, why not? and then we can address it, you know, after it's read into the record. And that's kind of what I was saying about why the minutes are so much more
important than the agenda is because the minutes memorialize everything salient that was said here where the agenda is a teaser to say is it worth for me to you know take off my slippers and put on my sneakers and come to the meeting to to
say my two cents but thinking somewhere. I think we have something to say. That's just my feel. Okay. We also had Dave, you wanted to
talk about potentially adding more student reps to different burrow boards. Yeah. And this is I think each of us uh sit on boards and I think it's an opportunity. So Henry Calvin uh graduated just graduated uh June. He was
the Bradshaw essay contest winner for the civic association and he wrote uh his winning essay was on students that participate in the government. Specifically, he talked about the experience of being a student rep on the
board of education. Uh that students that are active have another reason to kind of be multigenerational people who live when they move back in here. And I joked to Henry at the station. I said, "Okay, when you move back in here, make sure you pay taxes. Um but
sounded like a great idea. I think not every board is appropriate for it. Planning and zoning probably not because of their just they're judicially you know they have judicial responsibilities where but there are other there statutory functions. Yeah they're statutory functions. So
other than those those if it's not statutory function but it's more of a information gathering and that kind of thing. The example and I put into practice was I invited a student worker uh to the recreation council so we can actually hear from a kid who plays on the fields what the condition of the
fields are what their concerns are as as student athletes because the adults are making all these decisions but do we ever ask like somebody actually play so that was the idea of that human relations is one that naturally has children on it all the time uh because of the events they're planned for
children but most not by children but a lot of them put for children And even the senior citizen center has really gotten into the act of of inviting students to they had the whole writing contest and then so it's not appropriate and everything and I think it's
something that we should all I'm encouraging but I think we should actually make it something that we're open to not nec you know we're not dict I'm not dictating it to you guys uh but I'm trying to put it into practice myself
and I just wanted to bring awareness And it builds citizens. I was really impressed by the medicine. I can send I can get a copy of it and send it to you guys. But did he I can't recall. Did he read it at
the association? Yes, he did. He did. That's right. I remember that. Okay. Um I do have two other just real quick things. One was the craft fair. Um you know, the craft fair was last month. Um, the question is, were that was
handled through the burrow this year rather than PFH? I just wanted to find out if you had any comments, questions, concerns about that. Um, would you be open to that in the future? Um, or are we looking to put that back on the PFH?
PH did it last year, right? 2024. Correct. Yeah. Do you have any reservations about taking it on? No, I think there's I think there's very the interaction that we have putting it
on is is minor. Um Joanna has does most of it with the communications which she would be involved with some of that anyway. Um, so you know, the rest of it's just putting the resolution on, you know, making sure some information goes
out to the downtown businesses, which the vendor is willing to take that back on themselves. Um, you know, so I I think it ran actually fairly smoothly this year. Would we treat it as a burrowun
event? That's the next question. because this year just in order to continue it and solve some of the issues that were out there. Yes, this was the 31st. Um,
you know, it was one of those things where we looked at sharing that revenue with PFH. Um, I think in the future if you want to keep something on, if you want to keep doing it, I think it's a conversation with we have with PFH to
say we're going to keep the revenue but instead use it for something that'll benefit the downtown to dedicate it to that. You know, there are things that we've talked about whether it's, you know, making sure there's somebody walking up and down the district at off times to
make sure it's clean. Um, does it generate that kind of revenue to hire someone? You could not on a full-time basis, but you could certainly do it on a part-time basis. Really? So, if in advance of the sidewalk in that is
something instead of it we could have actually spent extra money. Well, no. I'm saying more like bringing somebody in on Saturday and Sunday um for, you know, three hours or something to go around and make sure that any trash
that's been dropped, litter that's been dropped, keeping King's Court and Hattie Lane clean. Um, you know, making, you know, maybe eventually getting one of those little sweepers that they can ride up and down on the sidewalks, you know, like I've seen them in Atlantic City and other cities. Um,
we're putting the revenue through the utility being a a way to do that to keep it out of the general fund and more purpose driven. I would not do that because the downtown really doesn't fall under the utility, but there's we can certainly, you know,
knowing that we're going to put a revenue in the budget, anticipating putting a, you know, a separate line specifically for this. That's, you know, that Yeah, we can create a line. Which burrow events do we have?
That are specifically ours. Yeah, that's not PFH. Um, well, or other celebrations, too. So, celebrations are our they are ours and celebrations. They're almost like
because we because we pay for at least a portion of all of the events. that that celebration does. Um, you know, so you're dealing with Fourth of July, the block party this year. Um, if you're talking typical and not the past
three years, you know, you're talking Fourth of July, uh, the tree lighting, you know, the Halloween parade, um, I'm sorry, and well, health and wellness has been the last couple of years and we continue that one.
Um Joanna deals with them more than I do. Uh that's borrow. Yep. They're all they're all PFA. What about the uh renewal? Is that a borrow? Technically that's I mean you guys are doing it with them
and there's really no cost to us. So sure it's, you know, they they were the ones requesting it. They're the ones that that put the heart there and came up with the idea. Um, you guys are the ones actually doing the vow renewals, but not me. No, you can do vow renewals.
Can I just fourth quarters, right? Got it. You have Yeah. Halloween and Christmas. And you have one in third quarter and the the typically the other one was in
second quarter. So, one per quarter. It feels it's not hours. one per quarter, right? One event per quarter that the burough owns relatively. I'm supportive of this. Summer, fall, spring, or something in the spring, PF
does. Yeah, there's a lot of events year round. I mean, and I think having a person downtown to address I mean, you and I talked about this multiple times um over the past four years of just some of the simple stuff. You know, we put
the pizza boxes in because they were constantly jamming the big bellies. We could Yeah, except now people actually put their pizzas. Now they don't put their pizza box sometimes. They still shove um sham jam
them in. I can find Yeah. Um you know, sometimes instead what we have is you have pizza boxes, people putting them in the right place, but then you have people throwing other trash in there. this person can walk around with a little cart and clean that up so that that trash isn't in there and it's not unsightly and we don't have to
wait till the trash company comes the next day. Um, you know, if you do it on the weekends, one of the complaints we get is, you know, either apartments living above downtown or something, they they block the trash in some way. this person coming through when our staff is
not working typically enables that stuff to still continue to be done but without, you know, necessarily trying to add more money to taxes. I think it's a great idea. I know the public works team would definitely appreciate something like this because
they're really trying to maintain downtown and it's a lot of work. Um, I've had multiple requests both from the public works team and from residents to remove the pizza box containers. I'm sorry. And to switch out the trash cans, which we can discuss. So, um, so yeah,
it would help. Yep. So, um, okay. And then the last thing I have is the two of you were not here. This topic came up a couple of years ago with the with the former commissioners. Um there is a group of residents in town
that are looking to raise funds for potentially turfing Centennial Field. Um they had started, you know, they came to the commissioners and got approval from the commissioners that if they could go out and and raise funds, we would look at participating in, you
know, paying for engineering costs, um you know, site plan, that type of stuff, and potentially depending on how much they raised, you know, adding into the, you know, finalizing the cost to be able to install up there. Um they are ready to kick that off again. they had some
things that slowed them down and they want to kick it off since you are a new group. I wanted to come back and bring that back to you guys. Um I did get updated estimates because that's one of the things that they were asking. So I got updated estimates from an engineer. Um the actual cost between the earthwork
um and the turf field and the storm water um could be anywhere from 925,000 to like say 1.2 2 um and with it an additional 150 to 225 225,000
in survey design and inspection which we would assume you know that's kind of how we did the last one. We assume that cost. Um, but if we're looking at them doing 75, you know, raising 75% of the turf field itself, potential cost to the burrow on this project would, you know,
would be um 381,000 to 519,000 roughly. Um, so before I went back to them and said, "Yes, go kick it off of we're still willing to to to you know, move forward with the project if we raise at least 75%."
I wanted to come back because two of you are new to this and say, "Wait, we have new commissioners. Where what what's the idea here?" Okay. If we if we are we in a position where it's this project or something else, right? Like
how else would that those funds be used? We It's a really good question. So it's kind of on an annual yearbyear you develop your capital plan. So it would be saying that um you know and that's
part of another reason why I came back because you know we are looking recreationwise of potentially spending a lot of money due to the recapping of pros. Um if we get the grant great but we're still going to have costs. Um and then you're probably also looking at
about a million dollars for Ragner. So knowing those numbers were out there, which were not out there before when we talked about this a couple of years ago, that's kind of why I wanted to come back to you guys and say, you know, what's the number? Or, you know, is it a number
higher than 75%. Um, and if you want to think about it, that's fine. I just want to go back to them and say, hey, we had new commissioners. I wanted to talk about it with them and get their idea of where they were going first. before they spend their time trying to raise the money.
Yeah. Because in my head, this is not a yes or no on this project. It's there unknown projects that could get this funding that maybe are higher in priority or risk factor or something else that we may want to consider above it. So, do we have a list of projects
that we would want to maybe relook at to consider it for funding? Sure. Yeah. And for me it's about shared services, shared service grievance um to users of Centennial Field Lacrosse and football. Uh I hopefully they would both
participate in the fundraising of that. Uh but much like one of the unfortunate byproducts of the shared service agreement with turfing of the
stadium and anniversary field uh was appreciating that the ongoing costs every 10 years, 12 years depending on the product. like there's there's new products that are cooler and the guys the road um you know so every 12 years we're saying to change the carpet not
the infrastructure to build in the drainage and the the slab that it sits on that um we need to memorialize not the upfront costs because that's an investment that town makes lots of things um it is the opportunities as
part of that project to create opportunities to recoup funds not to recoup for the project cost but for the eventual replacement of it uh and that's the whole reason a recreation utility exists so what I mean specifically
snacks and signs right that that they get a quality plane surface that doesn't wear out 75% is fundraised but we then have signage rights to sell signs for revenue and sell food for revenue and keep
bathrooms and those kinds of things for the eventual replacement of it because theirs is a one-time gift and then we have to create a fund a revenue stream specific to that site to keep that site up to par. And so it's for me, yeah,
sure, it's great. But we're gonna have a good conversation about the the shared service agreement and shared revenue agreement or even if it's a shared revenue agreement and it's borrowed land that somebody's volunteering to improve. They currently don't have any signs down there. So that's I don't think there's
any expectation for them to get No, I think it's a great idea. I mean turbet committee, you know, God bless him. Was it Joe Deler? Yeah. you know, just a tour of to force. They they hit their target really fast. Uh the town has absolutely benefited
from that over the years. Uh not just um playing services for our students, but it's the availability of playing services, services for everybody. And and that's the only other consideration. It has to be a football and a lacrosse
thing. So that one sport doesn't think they own it because the barrel owns when they had came to us initially and then I'll stop. Um when they came to us initially they had also convinced field hockey to participate. Well I was going to brought that up because field hockey is a sport that is actually very difficult for us. Right.
So if field hockey could then be worked into the mix and then also into the fundraising mix that's awesome. Yeah. When they initially came to us, they had included all three sports and in terms of in perpetuity, they want to sell the sonnage to naming rights. Naming rights.
Yeah. What we talked to them about was when they had come and asked, they were trying to come up with ways to fundra. They were talking about naming rights of the field. And what we talked to them about years, you know, a couple years ago when we talked about this was no, naming rights are more for a
maintenance. Yeah. Right. You want to memorialize somebody's name on it. Yeah. That doesn't make any money, right? Like naming rights. Just think of uh Wells Fargo. Yeah. If you go down the building right now, it it doesn't say Wells Fargo anymore. Why? They're naming rights right now,
you know, and they're actively looking and actually I think it's going to be complex. Expinity. Exfinity, right? So, it's going to be 30 years for 30 years. So, you know, there's a reason for it because they're constantly reinvested in like we're constantly reinvesting in the naming rights should
be a not a year-to-year thing like a sign, but absolutely a rugto rug maybe like this this version of the field was sponsored by pig name and then when we replace the carpet, we replace the name and then the next one gets to help us
put the new carpet down, you know, 12 years from now. That'd be awesome. Yeah. So no no imper no imperity right correct I work at university there even like
grounds at building change I worked in Vance Hall it's now diamond hall I mean that was a building that somebody gave millions in 1971 to build well guess what they needed to refresh it it's not Vance hall right so this is
that's important to me because I I just live that world of of fundraising or names under and I get that turf is preferred for certain sports. My personal feelings is I hate it but whatever. We'll put those
aside. Um I have to ask about flood management. I know there's going to be drainage underneath. Is there any concern we need to think about permeability of um of the material? Is it going to exacerbate the problem, help alleviate it a little bit in that
neighborhood? like is there any flooding issues that we need to worry about? So flooding issues are twofold over there. Um there we spent a sizable amount of money to redo that grass field and probably seven eight years ago now.
Twice six years ago right before Yes. But it was it was right before he left the second time. The third time. Yeah. It's it's all within like a year. So yeah. Anyway, doesn't matter. It there has we installed drainage as part
of that um because you have the wall that comes down and so there tends to be um some water that would lay along where the wall come, you know, where the seat wall comes down. Um and then we were having an a problem at the one end. We
finished with that contract, brought another contractor back in. We we addressed that issue multiple times. there's always somewhat of a drainage problem on that field, which is why they're looking for turf because you have um the the the main sport that
plays on it in the fall is football. They are going to tear up a grass field, plain and simple. Um especially, you know, they continue to play in the rain and that that will just tear up the the grass field even faster. Um, you know,
part of a draining plan is the grass that drinks the water. And when the grass is all dead, it doesn't drink the water again. If it's not there, it's or it pulls. Yeah. Yeah. The water just runs up off the field instead of in the field. So, not actually drink the water. The difference in that area is that with
the turf field, there's a whole drainage system that's installed underneath it. Um, and so the field will always be dry to some extent. Like for example, the the year we finished construction on the turf field at the high school used to
always be that um graduation if it rained at all, you had to move the ceremonies inside because the field would be a mess. Well, the first year of the turf field, it rained that day and stopped at like one o'clock in the afternoon or something. They were able
to hold graduation outside. Okay. Because everything drained. Now, another issue that we are looking to address in the next couple of years is current um storm water issues over there that
have nothing to do with the field, but just the way the land goes is you have water coming down park and travel along that there's a swell that's been in existence for quite a long time. We've made some improvements and stuff to it,
but behind the field before, like behind where the Centennial playing field is and then down where the tennis courts are, between those two at the top of that hill, there is um a swale and a pike that then go out to Douglas.
Um there with some of these heavier storms, the quantity of water that is coming out of there can be substantial to the fact that instead of it following typical drainage where it would then turn the corner and go down Douglas to the
parkland at the end, it will cross over the road at times with the amount of quantity that's coming down and then go into some of the driveways. So, um, the engineer was developing an idea to right at the bottom of the hill in
our paper street that's there, uh, to install, um, an underground system right there to be able to absorb or not absorb, but to to hold some of that heavier, you know, when you have a larger amount of water coming and then that would overflow and
go down the down the street as it's supposed to and then drain into the soils. um you know with not being a completely closed off but having the holes in the bottom with the drain with the with the stone underneath so that that water can
then drain into the soils naturally. Um so that's something we're looking at that that the next time we do storm water improvements is adding something like that into the potential storm water improvements. Um but this turf project would not exacerbate that problem. No.
Okay. That's what I needed to know. Whoever makes predictable order. Yeah. Yeah. It's unpredictable and logs that that is all I have in open and we are going to go into close to as you
indicated earlier to talk about um personnel and that is the vacancies and appointments. um to talk about litigation um possible storm possible settlement discussions on litigation. We do have
two requests to purchase um property from the burough and I don't remember what the other one is requesting property from correct from the borrow two separate functions. Okay. Yes.
And is it fair to say if somebody doesn't own it in our in our border, we own it? Uh generally the tax assessor. Yeah. There there's Henfield's a really old town, so there's a lot of We started this a couple years ago. You remember
that? That one little Yeah. There there's little areas because the surveyors it it does go back hundreds of years. I I' I've known they would sell houses where there nobody owned like two feet here. So that's basically ours, but we own by
default. Yeah. And Frank remembers, I think we started early on the last administration trying to clear that up. I I think KCO had found likeund and some properties. Oh, it's really funny. Somebody asked me, "How could two houses have fences that close to each other?" I said, "Well, we actually need the space in
between so they can both last item. that I was trying to remember what it was is possible restrictions um that could cause litigation. Oh, possible ordinance changes that or restrictions that could cause litigation. Okay.
Thank you everybody. Thanks for coming out. Bye. Thanks everyone. Just a couple minutes for closed to go before we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do I have a motion to go to take a break and then go into close? Yes. Second. Second. All in favor?
Yes. Nothing.