This meeting is called pursuant to the provisions of the open public meetings law. Would you all please rise for the flag salute? >> I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> God bless. >> Okay. >> Roll call, please. >> Committeewoman Evans, >> here. >> Committeeman Montgomery, >> present. >> Committeeman Dick, >> present.
>> Deputy Mayor Tory, >> here. >> Mayor Gilmore, >> here. Minutes. We have the approval of the regular committee minutes of November 13th and the executive minutes of November 13th. I need a motion in a second, please. >> So moved.
>> Second. >> Mr. Montgomery? >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick? >> Yes. >> Mrs. Evans? >> Yes. >> M. Tory? >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore? >> Yes. >> Reports. Do I see Sergeant Antinucci? No. >> Sergeant Antinucci said he couldn't make
it, but he said there would be another state trooper here. Maybe he got >> delayed. >> All right. I don't see him. So, we have reports A through G. I need a motion and a second, please. >> So, moved.
>> Second, >> Mrs. Tory. >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mrs. Evans. >> Yes. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Muska. >> Thank you. Uh so before um it's not on
the agenda uh but before we do our presentation to Mayor Leela Gilmore, I just wanted to um acknowledge uh our deputy clerk uh Jen Casurus uh who just was notified that she passed her RMC her
register municipal clerk. [Applause] So, and even more importantly, she went through all of these classes um during a very difficult time in her life. Personally and professionally, she had a lot going on, and I just want to commend her for following it through and not
giving up and passing it the first time. >> YOU GIRL told you to hire. >> I know. >> And not a requirement, right? >> Right. So our deputy clerk is not required to have their RMC, but uh Jen showed an interest and of course we
supported her that >> in that endeavor. So good job. >> But you can't leave for a very very long time. >> No. >> Congrats. >> Well done, Jen. >> Good work. >> Kiss kiss. >> All right. Thank you for that time. I appreciate it. >> Okay. At this time, I'd like to uh recognize our our lovely mayor, my good
friend, Leela. If you come for her, please. Yeah. Come. Can you speak loudly? It is truly my honor as deputy mayor to represent the township committee, our
administration and the residents of court in presenting this plaque to our great native and appreciation for her dedication for all she has done for. So the plaque reads with heartfelt
gratitude to Leo Lea Gilmore for nine years of devoted service on the Hesport Township Committee including three years as mayor and seven years on the joint land use board. Her
creation of the mayor's wellness campaign reflects her enduring commitment to the health and well-being of our community. Thank you for your leadership, dedication, and the lasting difference
you have made in Hport. So many are and will remain happy in Hport because of your contributions. January 2017 to December 2025. [Applause]
[Applause] I hope you don't expect me to say anything. I get so emotional. Thank you so much. Um
[Applause] [Music] beautiful. So, if I may just say a few words as well. I'm going to really try to keep it
together here. Mayor Gilmore is one of the five committee persons who hired me in 2017 and the only one of that committee that still remains. I've had the honor and the privilege of working for and with her for the past eight years. I cannot
look at you. Just about every single day since 2017, she has been in the municipal building working alongside each and one of us employees. That doesn't account for the countless hours that she has worked alongside various volunteers, organizations, groups, and churches. And I'm sure Donna Casey can
can speak more to that or attest to that. In the 28 years that I have served local governments, she is one of the most committed, genuine, hard-working elected officials I have ever known. Mayor Gilmore has demonstrated the
unique ability to never waver on her convictions, morals, and ethics. She always stayed true to her promises, including never to start, participate, or stoop to political smear strategies. I admire her ability to listen, respond
with poise, and communicate strategically. I will miss listening and learning of her personal adventures, all the businesses she owned with Bob, places lived, travels, accomplishments, and her family. Such a Renaissance woman who
wore all of this close to her chest. one of the many things I have always admired about her, but mostly her true unwavering love of the Hannesport community. We saw this so many times at the meetings when she would get emotional
and just by simply saying the words, "I love Haynesport and that I represent it." She started new committees and task forces, helped grow recreation programs, received grants for the town, and always represented Hannesport with great love
and pride. And I'm certain 114 votes will not change any of this. I will miss you, Leela, more than any words can express. You gave me my first opportunity as an administrator and a clerk. Supported, guided, and mentored
me in so many ways. Whether you realize it or not, I have learned so much from you. And I will forever be grateful for that and for you. So, thank you for everything. And I want to just give you a little something. It's flower day.
[Applause] >> Oh dear. Well, at least I remember to bring my tissues. >> We got a state trooper here now. >> Yes. Um, I see we now have a
representative from the state police here. Was there anything that you wish to say, sir? >> Thank you for coming. >> Well, thank you. Thank you for being here. >> Oh gosh. Okay. So, um we're at the time in our
agenda for comments from the public with regards to agenda items only. I'm asking that uh uh believe Mr. Glossy would like to make a comment. >> Yeah. So, there are five ordinances on for public hearing and because they create legislative records, we would ask
that if you have comments about any of the five ordinances on for public hearing, wait till we get to that part of the agenda to come up and and offer your comments on those on those ordinances, please. Thank you. >> Thank you. So, if anyone has any comments with regards to any other items
on the agenda other than the ordinances in the room, is there We willing to address each ordance in turn. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Anyone online?
>> Uh there is one person online if you'd like uh to make a public comment on agenda items, resolutions. >> No, >> you can unmute. >> No. >> No. >> Then I will close public comments.
Okay, on to the ordinances. Ordinance 2025-12 authorizing the acquisition and subsequent sale of block 72 lot 7. This is the public hearing and the uh adoption.
We're open for public comment with regards to this ordinance. Anyone in the room? I'll close public comments. So, I need a motion and a second, please. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Mr. Montgomery, >> yes. >> Mrs. Evans, >> yes.
>> Mr. Dick, >> yes. >> Mrs. Tory, >> yes. >> Mayor Gilmore, >> yes. Ordinance 2025-13, repealing and replacing chapter 127 of the code entitled pedalling and soliciting. This is the public hearing and the adoption.
I'm opening to public hearing in the room. Seeing no one, I'll close online. >> No. >> I need a motion in a second, please. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mrs. Tory. >> Yes.
>> M. Evans? >> Yes. >> Mr. Montgomery? >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore? >> Yes. Ordinance 2025-14 amending chapter 180 of the code of the township regarding parking and prohibitive parking on the section of Oak Lane. This
is the public hearing and adoption. We're open for public hearing. Anyone in the room? Seeing none, anyone online? >> Close public. I need a motion in a second, please. So moved.
>> Second. >> Mrs. Tory. >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mrs. Evans. >> Yes. M. >> Uh, Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes. Ordinance 2025-16 granting the stormwater easement. >> I think you missed one. >> I think we missed one.
>> 15. >> I >> We're on D. I think. Yeah. >> Yes, we are. Ordinance 2025-15 amending chapter 104 entitled land use to create the new zoning district known as AH-2.
So I need a uh open for public hearing in the room. I see no one online. I'll close. I need a motion in a second, please. >> Motion. >> Second, >> Mrs. Evans. >> Yes. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick.
>> Yes. >> Mrs. Tory. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes. Now, ordinance 2025-16 granting a stormwater easement over sections of property designated as
block 100, lots 9 and 10. And we are open for public hearing in the room. Yes, ma'am. >> Wait. Are they going to speak first? >> Oh, we're gonna have >> presentation first. I can't see them. I
lost them. >> So, if I could introduce >> public over there. >> Uh, so before we You want to introduce them? >> Yes. Before we um get to the >> Did you get any flowers? >> Public hearing coffee.
>> Yeah. The poinsettia there. >> Mr. Scott Taylor, our planner from Taylor Designs, is going to um give a little >> Thank you. I'll be brief like less than an hour. Thank >> Okay, committee members. Um Paul and
John and I spoken try to give a little bit of background some regional location relative to the ordinance that's on tonight for the storm water emergency storm water uh overturn park property uh in favor of
R&M development. So by way of background as this committee knows and this for some of the members of the public or new members of community the property where three turn park uh site is located was purchased by the township in 2017. Uh in 2018 some of the early survey and
environmental analysis began for the development of a pass passive and resource related recreation park within the community. access to the creek, access to the trails, um and acknowledging the significant topographic features, environmental
features of the site. Um since that time, we've developed a concept plan that has been presented. Township committee has seen that in support of green acres applications as well as other applications. Paula has been successful in getting between 750 and
$800,000 in grants uh from Green Acres and other sources over that time period uh to help towards phase one construction of the park. By way of reference, I have a a map here that had been previously presented
January 30th, 2024. And you can see here with 38 at the top of the exhibit comes along the left hand side. Warden place is at the bottom obviously is this dark area through the middle and then
the creek turn property is in this location. So when we went through some of the stakeholder planning and programing activities with the township, we came up with a
master plan for the park. Understanding that phased in over time that did a few things. Um, one, it acknowledged the existing driveway
access, which is a shared access easement with the Moles property directly to the west out to Route 38. It also it comes in and it utilizes wherever possible the existing impervious surface
coverages that we had that were associated with the site to try to minimize cost, minimize runoff, minimize any environmental impact. This concept plan actually has a reduction in impervious from what's existing in site as we move forward,
which will assist with permitting. The township is going to have to go through a significant permitting phase for waterfront development, flood hazard, wetlands, probably general permits associated with trails, boardwalks, and potential kayak are
coming into a small parking area. We have a potential picnic pavilion with a great lawn that is pretty much in the location of the clean prior house was
located that has some spectacular views down this long vista of the creek in this location. Coming off of that, we have accessible trails that in this upper bluff a couple things we're showing. Uh we
have identified some of the invasive bamboo removal which I know that is in process now and under coming in using that existing concrete potentially resurfacing that parking series of stabilized stone
trails that meander through the woodlands in both the sort of northern portion of the site as well as on this upper bluff. Those will be constructed of a stabilized stone material. They're excavated
aggregate base to those field located. This is similar to what we've done for Burlington County at Boundary Creek Natural Resource Area, Penington Park, Grow Lakes Park, Crystal Lake Park, County Fairgrounds,
and others. And it has a an aggregate that has a soil cement in it, and that's a stabilized surface, the New Jersey barrier subreity issues can access that. We're showing those
bench and a canoe and kayak and kayak tie up at an existing gravel beach. We have a main up that will be constructed concrete around the existing factory building with some open lawn
areas some pollinator habitat as well as rain gardens to even intercept even though we're reducing runoff when we don't need to trying to embrace that try to capture and even reduce the amount of water that we have run off into the creek
um amenities tables and now proceeding areas down the longest. There are a couple of areas where we do in future phases show some steps that come down. Those will not be accessible, but we will have accessible routes that will connect
along those lower areas. All of those stabilized stone trails and all these facilities will be designed um and field located to minimize disturbance uh to existing mature trees as well as any valuable understory to minimize those impacts. That's part of the process
we'll have to go through as we go through our D permitting. We went through a similar issue while fall eagles were still on the threat of endangered species in New Jersey to go to great lengths with them to try to do that as sensitively as possible as we
move forward. Um talk about some of the park amenities a little bit. U couple of things that we have done. Well, we know that in the middle of some of that planning process, we had an opportunity for an art installation to
be uh proposed out at the site. So, Big Rusty has been she didn't look, >> that's good to hear, Scott. Um, Big Rusty has been constructed in the area here at the front. We're
going to embrace that, preserve some of those structures where we can uh in the future. A couple things that have been ongoing issues. We understand that there have been and continue to be some vandalism issues and some overnight use out there. So, some of the things that
we're planning to do as part of the project are a we're already working on real time uh security surveillance cameras out there. So, in real time when those are triggered, you don't have to for the US um an SD card, but it can
actually be digitally wired into any phone municipality than that. The other thing that we've used pretty successfully um in very rural parks as well as as well as very urban parks is motion
sensored lights. I think all the expectations is that the park would be closed at night unless there were some special event. Um, but what we've done successfully is under all structures, under picnic pavilions and in key areas, we put motion sensors in them. If people
walk under there, the lights go on. Soon as the lights go on, police, neighbors, business owners, anybody within a quarter mile can see that those lights are on, somebody can make a phone call and say, "Hey, we've got somebody out there park." So, that's good lights,
good uh good sort of eyes on the facility. The other thing we know that there's been traffic issues and and Paula had mentioned that there were there were concerns about traffic and and the number of people that have been
brought in. After designing 200 parks or so over my career, one of the things that we have found is that we see an initial peak when parks first open, particularly those with art installations like this. And then you start to see that visitorship
drop off a little bit over time. We would expect to see the same thing here. As we all know, Rusty has about a 10 year lifespan. That's is not permanent installation. I think we're starting year three Paula of uh of
that contract. >> So we are designing the park with the anticipation that it is likely Rusty will go away um or would need to be fully reconstructed at some point in the
future. But again that's I may be retired. >> Best tip. Um, >> four years. I mean, right? We're year three. >> Seven years. >> Seven total. Oh, 10, right? There's
seven left. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. So, you'll be 39. >> You'll be 39 again. >> So, a couple of the other things you can sort of see it here on this concept plan, and this kind of starts to tie into a little bit of the the easement
location discussion. uh at this park was coming in, one of the things that I talked to the town about was we are going to have a significant investment required for DOT access improvements onto the state
highway. It could be 150 to 250 $300,000 depending on what level of cell and delan they require. We dealt with some of this doing Crystal Lake Park for Bington County. um several
years ago and when R&M first came in before the planning board, their original concept did not show any interconnection or on-site recreation amenities. Our ordinance requires on-site recreation for major subdivisions. Through the course of the
land use hearings, the joint land use board determined that the construction and dedication of a park access drive through community would a provide vehicular access to the study,
particularly for those residents that live immediately south to the southwest in Kesport into this without having to go up to the Route 38 um intersection, go east on 38 into the
site. And then more importantly when leaving having to go back around do the jug handle come back do the jug handle again and come back down or wrap all the way around. So that was a key thing that was done by the joint land use board during the
design. One of the second things was and it's actually reflected on this plan. Um there was a requirement. We know that a lot of folks in the neighborhood are already using it, have been joining the park even before the township audit and trying to embrace and formalize some of
those trails to make and we're showing you see them sort of dashed right here. We're showing connecting into our upper upper bluff loop trail. We have a series of trails. One is a potential connection
down to the Creek Side Lakeside Homeowners Association property and again it says if approved by the HOA because obviously if they didn't want that connection made this connection would not be facilitated. The second was
a connection into the new recently approved residential subdivision. So even if the Lakeside Creekide connector wasn't done, all the members from this area of town can walk up, can come up the new roadway and be
able to access the park by foot without having to drive through that circuitous route. So that project was originally I think submitted in 2019, approved in 2020. There were amended approvals in 2022 and
again in 2024. Part of the reason that we're here tonight is the subject of a storm water easement through the property. So, we updated that concept plan. First of all, just to interrupt it, a
lot of a lot of thought and work was put into this when the township bought this park, which was before I became on this dice. Um, and it was really great to see with the impervious um, road roads and and different things
of that sort. And I often wondered why is it so rustic and of course rusty is the name, but um, it's it's because of the runoff um, and it's important to do that and and the time it took to do that. So, um, good good job. And I know you do a lot of parks and I think you mentioned that, you know, throughout the
county and the state. So, which is why you're here with us. So, but yeah. No, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Um, so when the issue came up with the storm water easement uh for the emergency overflow, that area had been identified where
connecting that pipe and coming through the township portion of the property. We had some initial discussions with the township. Can you maybe zoom in on that? So >> that's a lot of Sorry.
go the wrong way. Here we go. Is that better? >> I think so. Um, one of the other things actually off of this upper loop, >> we were having a sub to a scenic
overlook on one of the highest to the down creek. And in some of our earliest discussions with committee, the first question would ask, where is this and how does this impact our park development and what are we doing?
And and that answer quite frankly was if we are already proposing the construction of trails and an overlook in this general vicinity. We can reconfigure some of what is proposed here to accommodate this. That's the
direction the governing body would like to go. So an amended approval was sought at the joint land use board. one of the requirements of that. So what I should say was so that comes to this location. This is where the connector path had
previously been shown into the new R&M senior development. And then there was another connector side >> either or creek side lakeside >> uh connecting down here that location
we envision a couple of things. And what's shown on the exhibit here, which is intended to be an attachment to the easement agreement shows the developer constructing that meandering trail to avoid the
mature trees and any valuable existing understory within that area. Secondarily, the joint land use board in their 2024 approval required a condition that the developer um work with our office to angle that
pipe to minimize the removal of mature specimen trees. >> So that is still an ongoing obligation of theirs. They have discussed the potential for directional drilling to be able to go under mature trees or slight angling of that. and the easement
itself. So those will continue to be ongoing obligations of that. All of these areas have to be restored with native education per their D requirements and those things are also reflected in the joint land use board approvals. They will also be required to
get soil erosion. They already do have their D permits uh for that emergency storm storm water outfall uh location. You can see this is where the prior overlook was. We actually think that we
capitalize on some of that existing clearing which may reduce the cost of the township for some of the clearing necessary for that and put the clearing in that area where there will be some open views down the creek which could be spectacular. We would actually because
there's a pretty significant bluff there. What we would do a so there aren't views of the scour hole and the head wall below you. Set that out that overlook back a few feet. So all you see is the peak and the creek. Plant some
native vegetation in the foreground. So when you're on that overlook, you're literally seeing that long vista down the creek and can't even see the stormwater management uh features ahead and the scour hole below you. One suggestion that I shared with John and
Paula this afternoon was sometimes those head walls are a stark bright white >> which can have some negative visual impacts on a kayaker or somebody else on the creek. Um we may want to consider requesting that those be uh there are
penetrating concrete stains that can easily be applied and if a warm muted earth tone color like a deep gray bark color could be utilized. We've done that on other projects. It makes them tend to blend within a wooded landscape and it'll make them less visually intrusive
to anybody on the water. I don't think you'll actually be able to see that head wall from anywhere else on the site just because of the arcade nature of the topography and where it's located. But if there's any concerns with kayakers or other visitors going up and down the
creek, we could request that coloration um of those headall structures. This plan also shows the uh developer construct the happy trail that we can then connect into the out trail system
with the developer being agreeable to that prevailing wage costs that would save the township approximately $27,000 um based on other bid numbers that we've had from William Lakes Boundary Creek and others um for the construction of
those features. Uh so the head wall again you know basically located back in this portion of the project is conveyed through a pipe a series of pipes drop and then basically a scour hole with a
head wall down just above um just water level in this location. This is not dissimilar. Most projects that are located on a creek have similar emergency overflow discharge pipes like
this. I believe the Creek Side Lakeside development also has one um several hundred feet to the south of here. It's not uncommon for these uh structures to exist, but this gives you some general um the thought that went into it to make
it the best that it can be at the joint land use board level and how we try to incorporate it as seamlessly. possible to minimize the visual impacts, the environmental impacts. Try to preserve as many of those mature trees and that valuable understory and habitat as
possible as this moves forward. >> Under 10 minutes, John. >> Yeah, you got 30 seconds. >> Can I just ask Can I ask you one question before you finish up and then let everyone else ask their questions? Um, I've heard the term clear-cut a number of times. Could you just touch on
that from the expert side so we know what exactly what >> like for the >> for the construction part? >> Yeah. None of the construction out here that we do would consider clear everything and it's it's even written in
the joint land use board approval as far as this goes. Um they will work to preserve I must say. So step one is before one tree can be cut down, the clearing limits have to be staked in the field and approved by our
office in writing before any clearing can commence. That provides an opportunity for us to preserve any large specimen that may exist and that goes for their work on their site as well as anything within. So we will work to try to preserve as many of those large
specimens as possible uh to facilitate that and that goes for the stormwater pipe and for the balance. We we do this we've had tremendous success getting approvals with D because we realize they realize everything that we do is very
sensitive very well thought out to maybe the least impactful because a it costs a lot of money to remove trees unnecessarily and it's not only the financial cost but also the environmental cost. So, whatever we can save is just better for
the community. C >> can I ask a question, please, Scott? Um, I heard you say earlier that uh the development needs on-site recreation. Do they not have additional on-site recreation other than this? >> They did not. So, the the ordinance does
not make a distinction for age restricted or um facilities uh on-site recreation requirements. So, when they came in, they were originally seeking relief saying these are seniors.
We don't need to build a basketball court. We don't need to build a ball field. And it was right around that same time when we were working on the concepts for the park. and we said if we can get we were talking about the costs of
constructing the DOT access improvements along the front. We shared with Paula and with the board the potential for a park access drive to come through here and the board felt comfortable that that met the spirit and intent of providing
pedestrian access for their residents through an open space access for pedestrians here. and then being able to allow that whole portion of the community to be able to drive into the site because there is going to be a brand new large passive recreation
facility that that was commensurate with what would have been required. So, they granted partial relief in consideration of that new lot and park access. I don't want to call it a roadway because it's not a dedicated right of way, but it will become a township lot with a park
access drive located on it. >> Right. But um our other main age restrict age restricted development which is the Glenn they have a clubhouse they have a swimming pool they have tennis courts they have lots of great
recreational facilities and this is a similar standard of housing correct in terms of the market value of the houses >> uh maybe I'm not sure how many homes there are out at the Glenn that was built >> it's probably more >> 259 homes
>> so the hard part and we've seen this as a trend throughout. We do a lot of work in Ocean County where there are two, three, 400 unit developments. Um, anything smaller than that, it becomes very ownorous for an HOA to maintain
those. the developer is happy to build them because they get to market this as part of their development. But we're seeing communities with 200, 300 people having to close their pools, having to close down courts because they just can't ma they can't manage to maintain them and they can't manage to replace
them in 20 25 years down the road. So for a development of this size, the most we would normally see might be a a small shade pavilion and a couple benches or a picnic table that the residents can for a single family
development congregate in the area if they need to. But the joint joint land use board and we discussed this and having a municipal park that has all those features in the back uh made sense to justify that modification to allow the construction of the park access
road, a sidewalk connection along that road as well as a sidewalk connection uh on the southern end of their property into there. The developer is also going to connect um the infrastructure necessary for water, sewer and
electrical connections. So the township can u make those connections into our study which we haven't even calculated the cost savings for that that could be in the six figures as well because if we had to go
out the 38 and do extensions it would be >> and Scott did you touch on the the cost savings in terms of the DOT access road? >> I think I did. Yeah. Um, >> yeah. I I mean, literally it could be anywhere from 150 to
250 300,000. The studies alone that they can require for DOT access like that is tremendous. Our hope is that we would be able to go to DOT and say this is a very
small passive resource related park and the main areas south of the can come in through this other way and we think that this will suffice and it has worked um safely over the last number of years and there's not going to be a tremendous
volume of traffic on Route 38. Another thing is if there's a concern about the time of the construction of that new park access drive this project as we said that could be two or three years down
the road before that park access road is even constructed. By then hopefully phase one park will be open. Um the township could even choose to defer the construction of that or the opening of it to the public. It could be for
emergency access only to some point in the future if there's immediate concern about using that for access. The other thing I will say it is a much more ciruitous route that anybody coming from north or either direction accessing the site from 38 coming down
Bangkok turning into this drive making a left and looping back through this is a much more securious route. I think it's much less likely that people would do that. The other thing I'll say is one of the reasons we are having vandalism out here now is it is a remote spot. It's a spot
where you can go do some graffiti, smoke some pot, drink some liqu [Laughter] >> by doing the security lights on >> and having some neighbors on the park. I
think those neighbors are going to be our first line of defense when something happens on the site because when those lights go on, they're going to be the first ones to call the state police and it will it will be more eyes. The more eyes there are on any facility, the less
vandalism is >> I had a question, Scott. So, just to follow up on what Andy said about clear cutting, there's not going to be clear cutting. Um, other words that were used in some of the political literature that's gone out is trees as old as the
ice age. Is there evidence of trees that do we know? I mean, you've because you've been here since the beginning when we first did this back. >> Yeah. Not since the ice age. Yeah. And looking really good. >> Um, but when this when this first when this was first purchased in 2017 and you
looked at it and there was a study that was done, etc. So you're aware of this. Is there evidence of what is the evidence of how old some of these trees are? And some of them are large obviously and that's important um to be able to maintain them. >> They are large. Um
we have very few old growth forests in the state. Almost every square foot of New Jersey has been cleared in the past. Um I'm guessing those trees are again I'm doing this sort of from memory
from sitewalks but in the 50 to 70 80 perhaps 100 120 years old but there are some nice specimens out there and that's one of the reasons we and the joint langort went through those lengths to say >> let let's try to make every effort we can to try to preserve those where we
possible. >> Okay. So ice age is a little bit of an exaggeration then and how old some Okay. >> I think the oldest living trees are >> um might be ponderosa pines and >> in this in this
>> No, no, no. They're in the southwest. >> Oh, you're talking in general. Oh, okay. >> Two or three00. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Very good. But in this area right here, they're they could be as old as Hannesport. >> I think the giant sequoas are four, five, six hundred years old.
>> Right. But in here >> you're okay. Good to know. Thank you. >> And the way that this pipe will go through, it's going to clear a path that's
30 feet wide and 60 feet deep and all this other. >> Is it 30? No. So it's actually a 20 foot wide ement which is about the distance from me to committee woman Evans. >> That's about 20 ft.
>> Um, >> how big is the pipe? >> 18 in. >> Sorry, >> I have to. >> I That's what I thought. >> I was going to guess 18 to 36 in because that's kind of >> Yeah. 18 in. So, if we're looking at
that, that's if you look at your drawing right there, right? How how wide is that right there? No. No. I mean the the how how tall is that? >> Oh, this is >> Yeah. >> 2 feet >> 24, right? 20, right? Okay. So, it's
smaller than that. The pipe itself. >> Yeah. So, >> that's 18 in >> 18 in. That's how big the pipe is. >> Yeah. And most of the pipe is a few feet below grade um until we get to the end. There's drop
manhole to get it down to that discharge point. Um, and there I believe there's 18 or 19 20 feet of excavation there. So, there will need to be shoring on the sides. There is some that >> there is clearing. It's not just
creating a trench, but you have to have equipment there to be able to to dig that trench and remove that material. The reason this gets done is if you let it all rush overland, it will scour and it will create erosion
>> into the creek. And that's that's why that permitting process exists is so that it is done in a matter that it discharges it into a scour hole. That scour hole is you see them in a lot of basins. They have rip wrap the size of
like 3 to 5 in stone. So when the water comes out of that, it hits that stone and it dissipates that energy because we all know you put a garden hose on sand, that sand just blows away. If you do it on mulch, that that different surface
area and the angularity of that that breaks up the energy in in the water itself and it reduces the potential for erosion. So that's why soil erosion and DP and those other people require those rip wrap scour holes.
>> And this pipe is basically it's for over if I understand this correctly over a 100redyear storm. >> Yes. It's only it's not that it's water that's flowing like from the other developments that water is flowing right
into the Rancokus right I don't know every other big storm it comes it it has to flow out this pipe is for over a 100redyear storm so odds are none of us will see that >> there will be some there is a tiny amount of water like almost a garden
hose amount that a 10year storm will release okay >> through that I think it was 0.1 cfs The point is it's not flowing through this pipe every time it rains and going into it. It's it's a extreme case. >> What's that?
>> 02 02 cubic feet per second which I think a minute roughly um less than 20 gallons a minute. So that's sort of a serious guard flowing
there after a 10ear storm. a 10-year storm, >> right? >> Um, >> it's an emergency. It's It's emergency. >> It's an emergency thing. And And if the basin were were oversized, >> um, and there wasn't an emergency
discharge, if that emergency event ever happened, the water would over top the basin and it would flow toward the homes on Warden Place, which is not what anybody wants, >> which is Creekide Lake. Yeah, sideak
creek side. So it would flood the other homes if this wasn't put in there for for a 10year or bigger >> storm those other flow between them. >> Yeah, understand. >> But just took >> but it's it's a preventative measure. >> That's why this is a belt and suspenders
and three pairs of boxers. >> So Scott, a larger basin, we would still be running a pipe. Is that the >> like potentially I'm not an engineer. >> Fair. >> I I believe that a 100year storm is the
largest storm event that D requires you to accommodate. And I I say this from park designs we've worked on and other projects. We all know that there have been storms larger than a 100redyear storm
um in the last 20 years. Some of these tropical depressions that we've had We have had 500year storms and we have had thousandear storms and that is based on the rainfall intensity. If we get one of these cells that hangs over a spot, it can dump 12
in of rain in a 6-hour period. And some of those storms have been considered 500year storms. This having an emergency overflow pipe protects anybody downstream
um by directing that overflow water away from residents. That's why it went that way originally into that storm water ement that was not used as a storm water. It's I think the sanitary line still goes through there, but it's not currently
being used as a water. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Okay, >> Paul. >> Anybody else? >> Yeah. Open it. >> Open it. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Taylor. >> Thanks, Scott. >> Thanks, Scott.
>> Thank you. >> Okay, [Applause] so now we're ready for Public comment on the ordinance. Anyone in the room? >> Yes, ma'am. >> I have a quick question. I'm sorry.
>> Does he need to come up? >> He needs to come up, doesn't he? >> You I'm already addressing Miss Pla to come up to the dis. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, >> comments are we allowed to ask questions. >> You can ask anything you want. I don't
know that you'll get an answer, but you can ask. >> Are we gonna try to >> We're going to try and do it. >> We'll try our best >> to get answers if there's any questions that require his >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> But as far as a back and forth, no. Miss
Pla. Good evening everyone. Deborah Pla, 50 Braftoft Lane. Developers are required to comply with the planned re real estate development full disclosure act NJSA 4522A-1
at SEC and NJAC 526-1 known as PRAA. It prohibits the developer from entering into contracts for more than one year before the HOA board of directors has been elected. NJAC 526-8.5
states, "Any contract or agreement affecting the use, maintenance, management, or access of the common elements and facilities entered into between the developer and itself or a company owned, operated, or controlled by the developer, or in which it has a
financial interest prior to the owners being elected to being entitled to elect a majority of the members of the board. shall not be entered into for a period in excess of one year. Such contracts or agreements shall not be renewed for
periods in excess of one year, and the association may at the expiration of any one-year period terminate any further renewals or extensions thereof. The Condominium Act also limits management, employment, service, or maintenance
contracts made prior to the unit owners having elected at least 75% of the members of the governing board to two years. The condominium act permits a 2-year extension, but in 2024, the statute was amended to state.
Notwithstanding the above, any management contract or agreement entered into after the effective date of this amendatory act shall terminate 90 days after the first meeting of a governing board or other form of administration in which the unit owners constitute a
majority of the members unless the board or other form of administration ratifies the contract or agreement that is found under NJSA 468B-12.2. 2. This provision was addressed by the Supreme Court in Brandon Farms Property
Owners Association versus Brandon Farms condo association. The developer in created a property owners association before the condo association was organized. The condo association was to pay assessments to the property owners association and refused to do so. The
Supreme Court rejected the developer's agreement, stating, "The act expressly prohibits the developer from entering into a long-term management agreement contract or contract on behalf of a condo association. If the developer does enter into such an agreement, once the
association sheds the developer's control, the board may ratify or reject it. Here, the developer created the so-called agreement before the condo association came into existence. And once the condo association existed, it never adopted or ratified, but instead
refused to inter to enforce the agreement. The Supreme Court voided the agreement as contrary to the to the condo act pursuant to NJSA 468B-7. This is not a new issue. Back in 2000,
Quaker, the original developer of Creek View, conveyed land to Diamontis. Diamontis claimed that an agreement was reached with Quaker permitting Diamontis to discharge water into Creek View's pond. Bear in mind in 2000 no HOA or
board of directors existed. When the board was elected, they never entered into an agreement with Diamontis. In the absence of an agreement, Diamontes could not discharge water into Creek View's pond. That is a trespass and it's illegal. In 2021, both preliminary and
final approval were granted over Creek View's objection. Neither the JLUB nor the developer had the authority to make a decision about the HOA. Only the board can do that. So, Creek View filed suit. That is what is happening here. The
township committee does not have the authority to bind a boardcontrolled HOA to any agreement. Only the board of directors can do that and it doesn't exist. The developer also cannot bind the HOA to any agreement under PRAA for longer than one year with a one-year
extension. Under the Condominium Act, it's two years. And under the amendment, it terminates 90 days after the first meeting. This committee cannot bind the HOA. You don't have the authority to do so, and neither does the developer. In closing, everyone recognizes and
understands that the property owner has the right to develop his property. However, the developer should be knowledgeable about the laws of the state of New Jersey and should comply with those laws. The developer should also not impose any financial burden on the residents of Hannesport. Bear in
mind, this is not a Creek View problem. This is a Hannesport problem. If that agreement is voided by the by the board, Hannesport residents become responsible for that pipe and the easement. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you, Dad. >> Yes.
[Music] Can you control your time? >> I'm trying to control the timer. Sorry. >> Mind of its own. >> Samantha Loveman, 2514 Creek Road. So, how do you enter into a contract without an existing entity? Based off of what Deb has said, I believe that this
is important information. Given the new information regarding the easement, I respectfully ask the committee to postpone the vote to a later date. Taking additional time will help ensure the best long-term outcome for the township as a whole. It will also allow the community the committee to fully
consider the impact on the future residents of the new neighborhood being built. And I'd like to end with um committee committee man uh Montgomery. Um our residents for the environmental commission are volunteers and they did
speak about what you talked about but it was wrong. The oldest they said for the trees was about 200 to 250 years. And the ice age comment is referring to the landscape in general and how it hasn't been touched. And this is coming from our Hansport
residents that volunteer their time. Um, so the joke was not that funny. Thank you. >> I'm on the environmental commission so I I >> Anyone else in the room? >> Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Um Sandra Sooff, 48 Braftoft
Lane. Um I urge you to vote no on ordinance 202516 for the following reasons. Uh the township would be allowing disturbance of significant wetlands on this township owned property. Um the land is considered significant wetlands and the New Jersey
D classifies it as an exceptional resource value. um it is in a wetland mitigation bank service area, meaning that if it's disturbed, payment has to be made into a fund um to offset the disturbance. And I
don't think that that's been discussed um to explore the cost of this. Um, in addition, uh, this lot as well as, um, other adjoining lots contain, um, protected species, federally protected
species that are endangered or threatened, including the New Jersey endangered bog turtle. So, for these reasons, I think it's important that you would vote no to this ordinance. Thanks. >> Real quick, can I I just cuz I I'm curious. Um, or will you talk about the the lot? Are you talking about where we would put the park?
>> Yeah. >> Okay. So, and I assume and >> well, >> and or the development, but but you're talking about the lot. So, the park in general would be >> Okay. Okay. No, I wanted to make sure I was You're talking I wrote the right thing down. >> Sorry. >> That's okay.
>> Anyone else in the room? >> Speak now or forever hold your peace. Bob mode, 202 Lumberton Road, Hannesport. [Music] We've heard a lot of good things here tonight. I'm I was impressed by the presentation. One thing I will mention
about the environmental concerns is that rightly he points out that this is mainly to protect against 100redyear storms. But 10 seconds later, he does say we all see how often 100red-year storms are occurring now. This this is a
fact of life that you know these big storms, these cells do park themselves over places. We've seen it this year where localized flooding has happened. The storm water pipe would get used more than I think we're thinking about.
The vast majority of residents are vehemently against the easement. Their concerns are finally being listened to, but a day late and a dollar short in my opinion. This alone should warrant the move to go back to the drawing board in the way of tableabling the matter until
all the concerns are resolved. Let us consider the procedure that has seen the JLUB approve this easement back in mid 2024 but laying dormant until now. Why was that delayed? This has been asked before with no
satisfactory answer given. The concerns of transparency and due process are legitimate and should be addressed. The timing coming after the recent election suggested an attempt to avoid public scrutiny or debate on with until the
campaign season was over. These irregularities undermine public trust in our local government. I for one am grateful that the issue was bought out before the go before the public before the election. There is the issue of political
influence as previously shown by the submission of supporting documents obtained from the New Jersey Election Law Enforcement Commission showing the landowner and developer seeking this approval being consistent and generous donors to both Mayor Gilmore's
re-election campaign and their party. This established financial relationship causes concerns about whether decisions are being made in the public interest or to benefit a private donor. The appearance, if not the reality, of a
quid proquo is deeply troubling and risks further eroding community confidence in our elected officials. The legal questions that have been bought up are also very concerning both in the present time and in the future. I do not believe the easement agreement
has fully addressed the possible exposure to the town in the present and the years to come. The liability questions regarding the walking path over the easement is one of concern. Who will be responsible in the case of an injury? The town or the HOA? If the area
remains unimproved, if there is no easement, then there is no issue of liability. But if the path over the easement exists is that improved land, therefore subject to liability. Perhaps more importantly, the question of maintenance or repair of the pipeline
and the outflow into the creek has not been satisfactory resolved either. Is there a sunset date to the agreement? Does liability then revert to the township? Will future residents look back and say, "What were they thinking?" The presentation mentioned the inability
of many HOAs in his experience and you know being able to afford the upkeep of their amenities and these are two three 400 unit places that are having to close their tennis courts. How are we to say
that a 41 unit HOA is going to be able to afford the upkeep of this this pipe, the maintenance that's going to be uh required or the repair of this this pipe if if so needed? Currently, we're considering entering
into an agreement that may not be able to age past the year as addressed by Deborah or will need to be redone with the new HOA whenever that will be. It is entirely possible that the committee either well that the committee will be seen to be helping the developer go
against the letter of the law or the spirit of the law regarding an agreement that is reached before an actual HOA exists. Will the HOA have the right to terminate the agreement which would leave Hannesport holding the bag for all liabilities? What would be our options at that time?
Probably very limited. In closing, I will once again restate what seems obvious to me. Your actions tonight will have lasting consequences. Approving this unpopular proposal will resonate with the residents of Hannesport both now and in the future.
These residents will look back and ask themselves, "How did my local representative look after my town's welfare?" Committee Tory and Committeeman Montgomery, next November, when you seek re-election, these residents here tonight and all the other
people in our town will ask, "How did you act in the best interests of Hannesport?" How will you answer? >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Do you want me to go right into questions when you're done?
>> Anyone else in the room? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yes, sir. Good evening, mayor, members of the committee. David Frank, attorney at law. I represent R&M Development, uh, the developer of this of the project, and I thank you very much for your
consideration this evening of this proposed ordinance. Um, I have a couple of people with me this evening that actually do know some technical answers to some things. Uh notably uh James Mellet who's a professional engineer whose firm
Churchill uh did the permitting work to get the waterfront development permit um from NJD that allows for the installation of the pipe that we're proposing. Um he can explain to you a little bit about what we went through to get that permit and what sorts of things are considered by D. I also have Jack
Gralin who was the design engineer for the project, the civil engineer, and he can tell you about what the actual flows are and what the purposes of the pipe in the basin are. I think they would largely confirm what Mr. Taylor told you that it's really for Yeah, close call
there, Scott. You're practicing outside of your your world. Uh but it is his world actually. He knows a lot about this. Um he Jack would largely confirm what what Scott told you. um that that the sound
engineering practice requires that there be an overflow, requires that there be an outlet for a basin. It doesn't matter whether the development were half the size or or or not, whether the basin were twice as large, it still needs to have a place to go. That's what Jack will tell you. And then I also have with
us Bernie Isacson who is an expert forester and he can tell you about the trees that are there, their character and I think he has one exhibit that I really want him very much to show you which is a series of historic aerials.
Back though to what Mr. Taylor spoke about um he referenced the possibility to use colored concrete to diminish the visual impact of the outfall structure. And um he does a lot of work in a lot of places, lots more than I do, so he
probably doesn't remember, but we agreed to do that at the planning board meeting at his request. It's in the conditions of approval in the planning board uh resolution. So that's fine with us. Happy to do it. We're going to work with Mr. Taylor to create a meandering trail
through the woods that we're going to work with Mr. Taylor and his office not to clearcut, not to just willy-nilly take down trees. That's part of the resolution of approval from the board, but also part of the commitment of the developer. Um,
I want to remind you that the the park access driveway or road that's being constructed is something that that is being constructed at the cost of the developer and the land is being donated to the municipality for that road. We're also
agreeable as a part of this process to the installation of the necessary utilities to serve your park and its facilities at our cost as a part of our development project. That driveway also puts, and this is something that Jack Ralin can confirm
when he if he comes up here, is that that um driveway also puts between 7 and 9% of the flow that goes into the basin and then out of the pipe that we're proposing to install it. It contributes
7 to 9% of the flow to that system. So, um, we're handling some of the runoff that enables your part your safe, uh, efficient park access. So, those are just some points that I wanted to make about those. >> Um, I'm going to leave it to Mr.
Gillespie to address the legal issue of whether um a contract can be formed with my client as the developer which could then bind future uh HOAs. Uh, what I
want to point out is explicit in what she read, I'm not familiar with that statute, but explicit in what she read was that the developer couldn't bind the HOA to anything with a company controlled by the developer. And so I
think the evil sought to be avoided by that statute is not writing easements and agreements about how we're going to deal with infrastructure between the municipality and the developer and a future HOA, but the effort is to try to keep a developer from creating a captive
organization that continues to profit off of egregious contracts with an HOA far into the future. That's the evil that that sought that sought to be avoided by that, not what we're trying to do here. Again, I'll leave it to Mr. Gillespie to confirm that for us. Excuse
me. Um, as far as liability goes, um, Mr. Gillespie is working diligently on making sure that we have belts and suspenders here to protect the municipality with regard to uh, cash
monies to be held in trust. hard for a lawyer not to be long-winded, cash monies to be held in trusts, insurance, etc. Um, if I am time limited in this way, I'd like to uh perhaps uh invite you to ask questions of my
professionals that we brought here this evening if you have any. >> Thank you. >> I think we would like we would benefit from hearing from um your professionals. Yeah. You know that they can keep theirs to five minutes as well.
>> Um the first first I'd like to call Jim. >> Good evening. >> Good evening. >> Tell us your name for the record. >> James Mellet. >> And what are your professional credentials? >> I am um professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. Um currently president of Churchill. a little closer to the mic.
>> Yeah, sure. Sorry about that. >> Um, president of Church Hill Consulting Engineers, um, civil engineering firm in, uh, Berlin, New Jersey. Um, I am an expert in water resources and environmental engineering. Um, specifically environmental permitting,
storm water management, design, hydraulics, etc. So, first question, um, is it safe to build a basin with no outlet? It is not it is not standard practice to do that. Um yes for for a variety of
reasons. >> It's not safe. >> Correct. >> Okay. Not and not accepted practice within within the engineering industry. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Good. Now let's talk a little bit about the NJD permit, the waterfront development permit that you worked with
um uh my client to obtain. >> Um what's the process for doing that? So a waterfront development permit first off is required because um the Rookus Creek is a title waterway. So anything within a certain distance of a title waterway has to get approval um under
waterfront development law by the NJ DP. And so um that property township property is within that proximity under jurisdiction of D. And so we put an application together showing a plan um of the what we were proposing to do,
where we're proposing to put the pipe discharge, etc. We also included a storm the stormwater management design which was was prepared by um Mr. Jack Gavlin. Um the the the plans from the development um and as well as a
compliance statement that goes through the NGDP rules um that you know states whether or not what are the disturbances that are associated with the project. Um are there any impacts on threatened endangered species? What are the resources in the area and kind of walks
through their rules and make sure that it makes sure that the application is compliance with their sets of rules. So that's not just a narrow set of rules about storm water, but more broadly the D's rules about other ecological and environmental concerns. >> That's correct. >> Okay. And in order to get that permit,
the D as an agency has to be satisfied that this project wouldn't would be damaging to those concerns. >> Yes. >> And if they have some concerns, do they sometimes propose that we do things differently? >> Yes. >> What do they call that? Um I mean it would be um through the
review process they might if if there's say there's um you know they're going to do their due diligence as well. So, as an example, if they were going if they found that there was um threatened endangered species um within your proposed development, potential significant adverse impacts, they would
coordinate with us to to potentially evaluate different alternatives, um put in mitig mitigating um conditions into the permit, um timing restrictions, um monetary contributions, removing species, etc. Did they impose any of those conditions
or mitigation uh components on this project? >> There are timing restrictions for any clearing that is done on on the site. Um it cannot uh can't clearing can't take place in portions of the year. Um and also there's restrictions on um basically keeping the clearing with with
to what is shown on the plans and then reveating in accordance with the plans. >> So no clearing beyond what is actually shown on the drawing. >> That's correct. >> And reveation. Okay. Are there any questions from the committee for Mr. Mel? >> No m
>> when you say reveation um I'm assuming no more bamboo. >> No no no absolutely not. In fact that would be um against their rules that it's in every set of their rules that when you replant it has to be indigenous >> indigenous. Right. Very good. >> Yeah. Definitely.
>> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Next, if I may, I'd like to bring up Mr. Grlin. Okay. Yes, Jack. >> So, Jack, just to review, you are a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey.
>> Yes, I am. >> And you were the design engineer on this on the overall development as well as on the the stormwater management system for this project? >> That is correct. I have about 20 years into this project starting with the diner. >> Okay, good. Um, I have some real simple
questions for you. So, as I asked Jim, is it good engineering practice safe to build a basin with no outlet? >> Absolutely not. I would not sign a plan that did not have an emergency outlet.
>> If we built half as many houses and a basin twice as big, would your answer still be the same? >> It would be identical. >> Okay, good. So, it doesn't that doesn't matter. The design is a design. >> Yes. Now, let's talk a little bit about the flow in the pipe. Mr. Taylor told us
that um we would have at the 10-year storm a very small amount of water, roughly um 0.02 cubic feet per second of flow. Is that accurate? >> That is correct. And >> that's as a result of actually staging
the outflow. D wants you to discharge a little bit anyway. And it's point 0 one CFS. >> So actually half said yes. Okay. It's >> just to put it in perspective 4.5
gallons per minute. >> Okay. And >> negligible. >> And was he correct when he said that was about a garden hose full? >> It's roughly a garden. >> Okay. >> With some pretty good pressure, I guess, but that's okay. >> Negligible. >> In the 100redyear storm, how full is the
the 18in pipe going to be? one quarter roughly 25% only the bottom half bottom quarter >> right so there's more room in the pipe for additional flow should we for bigger storm >> yes >> okay let's talk a little bit um well we
don't need to go into that we're we're good um well I will ask you the question are those are those um projections of the amount of flow that will be coming out of that pipe um are they are they concern conservative. Are they right at
the edge of things? Um, uh, where are they in in the in the scope of of thinking about things? As an engineer, >> I consider them extremely conservative. There were there were some additional factors imposed upon us. We have to add
additional flows. That happened about two years ago. It was a New Jersey D proclamation, part of their part of their storm water act where we actually have have applied factors to the peaking
on the intensities. Just to give you an example, I initially designed this for 8 in of rain for the 100-year event. As a result of the new standards, I'm up to 11.5 in. So these are the DP's projections into the future of what the
impacts of climate change will likely be. >> That is correct. >> Potential rainfall. So this this incorporates the newer the newer uh understanding of what those may be. >> Yes. >> So in that sense you consider to be conservative. >> Is there any credit at all for
exfiltration or infiltration at the bottom of the basin? >> Absolutely not. New Jersey D does not allow us to route the storm to include exfiltration is what is actually called
water perking infiltrating through the bottom. That is not permitted to be considered as part of the routing calculation. In other words, we just bring the water up without any consideration for what the actual
physical reality is in these kind of soils which is all sand leaving. >> So is it your expectation that we'll actually never really achieve the flows that you're projecting will be much smaller? In fact, >> that is my opinion based upon the basin
I did for the diner and the basin I did for Pep Boys. Okay. Water runs in before it ever gets to the outlet structure, it infiltrates. >> Okay. But we >> exfiltrates. >> But we can't build a basin that doesn't have a way out. >> Absolutely not. >> Okay. That's all I have for Mr. Gra.
>> I I have a question. Um, so the basin that you built for Prep Boys and for the diner, they have one of these and it goes into the creek. >> They have outlets that actually go in to the Route 38 drainage system. Is there any reason why this one can't do that?
>> Pardon me. >> Is there any reason why this one can't go into the Route 38 drainage system like the one at the Pepper Dina? >> Well, cuz it Well, cuz it isn't tributary to Route 38. When you get back to the bottom of our site, that's no
longer tributary to the drainage system in Route 38. Too much of an elevation change for me to be able to get the water back to Route 38. Does D require us to put the water into the same tributary as well? >> That is what they prefer. Yes,
absolutely. >> So, what does that mean? The same tributary. >> Well, if if for example our site was 30 foot higher in elevation, it would be it would be draining back towards Route
38. I'd be able to discharge into the Route 38 system after mitigating after controlling the flows. In this case, Route 38 is higher than our site. Therefore, we can't drain into it
physically. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Um because I was thinking the whole time I'm remembering the original before the joint learning sport and the soil there
is very sandy and that you couldn't get it to hold the water if I'm remembering correctly to measure it. It was it was seeping through. >> It is a titten sand which is the reason
that they excavated all the current Creek View area. >> Mhm. >> It was it was excellent soils to build 95 295 that was mined out of there for many years
>> mainly because of it is excellent sandy soil. So the chances of it overflowing are extremely slight, shall we say?
>> I would say extremely light. As long as there is some place for the water to go. The way I have it designed, I am 100% confident if if it ever builds up to the elevation of the outflow structure into
that pipe, there's more than enough capacity for a 500year storm event that the water will be able to escape out the pipe and not over top behind the basin. So I guess a question would be how deep
would the water be in the detention retention pond detention pond before it hit the overflow pipe. How much water would be standing? >> I do have a copy of my design plans here and
>> and I don't remember that. >> Okay. The bottom of of our of the basin is at elevation 29. I have the outlet structure great at elevation 36.5,
7 foot higher than the bottom and the top of the basin is at elevation 40. So there's an additional 3 foot of freeboard between that. Now below the great there are some uh smaller
orififices holes in the side that will allow for the 10year storm event to partially come out. But those elevations is at uh
3380 which is and it's only a 3in orifice. So for all practical purposes, the water has to build up to the to the elevation
of the great on the top for any significant water to actually be discharged. >> Okay? Because it so I'm I'm comparing it in my visual mind to the one at the Glenn at Mason's Creek where there is a
detention pond and but they made it into a retention pond. So there's water in there at all times, but it's not a lot of water. >> We could never do that unless we were to line the whole thing with >> probably a a foot of clay because
>> Well, it's the oldfashioned >> Yeah. >> style detention pond. They don't make them that with the steep sides anymore, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? Since we have an engineer capture,
should we ask some questions about the outfall structure south of this? >> Sure. >> Are you aware at all with any of the storm water at the Lakeside Creekide community >> when you were doing your studies or doing planning for this project? Well, I
can I can tell you that I was part of the meeting meeting with Steve Schilling back in 1999 and Princeton Hydro who who actually did the major storm water design. They
they're the ultimate storm water people in the state of New Jersey. He told me, "We'll take every drop of water you have. you don't even have to detain it because they wanted the additional flow to go through the lakes because you need to have a certain base flow,
>> right? >> And uh that's but I but I did not do >> Jack that would be through the lakes and out to the creek. >> That is correct. Out to the Rand Cocus, but but through the easement that that was ultimately shown on the file map
were Creek View. >> Okay. So I think there's 360 homes in Creek View. Um the Lakeside Creek View community, this is 41. Their current system is through pipes and infrastructure that the township owns and it ultimately discharges into what I
would call a storm water lake that's holds all the the storm water in that lake which is south of your project. >> They are all groundwater ponds basically. It's it's as a result of all the excavation that was okay. that was done out there into the groundwater.
>> Right. So I all as the MS4 coordinator for for for Hannesport, I know that all the storm water from the roofs, the yards, the driveways, the the residential roads that are in that community all go through the storm water system into the lake. >> That is correct.
>> Then where does it So where is their 100redyear or 500year outflow going >> uh into the Rancokas Creek? >> Okay. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks, J. Good. >> Next, uh Dr. Bernard Isacson. If I could
bring him up. >> Um and I hope you don't start my clock until Mr. Isacson gets his exhibit pinned up. I'd appreciate that a lot. >> Oh, I can um >> you can project that, too. >> Yes. Yes, sir.
>> Yeah. If we do that, I want to borrow your laser pointer. >> Sure. >> Otherwise, Bird's going to use >> I do have Sorry everyone. Can we use your your board as background? >> Governing body tonight.
All right, good. Just just quickly, uh >> Bernie, um I'm going to run you through this because we only have five minutes. >> Sure. >> Um your your CV runs to about 10 pages. Um your undergraduate degree was a bachelor of science in ecology and natural resources from Rutgers with
highest honors. >> That's right. >> And what was the subject of your honors thesis? >> Uh detect hyperspectral detection of bacterial leaf scorch and red oaks. >> What is that? >> What? >> What? uh using a really fancy camera that's got like a 100 channels just for the blue light to be able to get the spectral reflectance of of different
surfaces in this case leaves that do or do not have bacterial leaf scorch. So, trees that are dying. >> Trees that are dying. >> Okay. Your masters. >> Make sure Jen's getting all this. >> I'll give you a copy of this. >> You got that RCM now. >> Um, your masters of science was in
forestry from W Madison, University of Wisconsin. And what was the subject? >> Go Badgers. What was the subject of your thesis? >> So, that was mapping ash trees at large spatial extent. So, across the state of Wisconsin before emerald ashbor showed up. Well, that was the intention. uh at
LANCAT scale so 30 meter pixels but for the whole state to manage for EAB >> so >> again forest forest health >> try okay and your PhD is in ecology from Ruters University >> yes that's right >> and what was your PhD thesis in
>> so that was about u redefining forest stocking in the pinelands to be able to balance competing contemporary objectives for that forest so there's a lot of different goals for that forest and trying to come up with uh numeric ways of showing the trade-offs between those.
>> Okay. So, it's safe to say that you're a forest ecology expert. >> That's uh I I appreciate the platter. Yes. >> Okay. Good. I'm going to call you that. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, have you been to the site? >> Yes. >> And what did you do there? >> So, I uh took measurements in sort of
three groups. So, I took measurements of the trees inside the easement. Uh 3 to 12 in trees and then trees over uh 12 in. Uh to be compliant with the the township's tree removal ordinance. I took tree uh measurements of trees adjacent to that right ofway. Uh so the
township in the that uh ordinance has the critical root radius which is defined as a ratio of 1 to 18. Uh so for every inch of diameter an inch and a foot and a half of protection or 18 in. So I sampled all the trees along the edges that would have had their critical root radius extend into that uh right
ofway. Uh and then I also did a cruise of a cruise across the rest of the township joining parcels uh to get a sense of the context the local context of that forest and what it looks like. >> Okay. So you say you you you cruise meaning you walk the entirety of the the
township township property that's going to be the future park. >> Yes. >> As well as the immediate area where it's going to be. >> Yes, that's right. >> Good. Did you find any really exceptional trees when you made your walk? >> I sure did. >> Tell us about them. So, uh, the area, let's see, I'll try to do it with the
laser pointer without shaking too much. Oh, I can do it on this, too. >> Yeah, do that. >> So, um, directly north of the old building. >> How about how about we put SC? >> Sure. >> I think we have slightly different
projection here, but we do hold it. >> Oops. >> Great. So directly north of the buildings um once you get you see the everybody can
see there's the gray lines here slopes down into the wetland uh and then you've got this this ditch and an area that was somewhat cleared not all of it uh you can see in some historic imagery uh and then north of that ditch uh are some
magnificent trees as magnificent trees uh which to me were reminiscent of bottom line hardwoods in Mississippi, upper Mississippi. So, I'm talking over 100 feet tall. Um, 30 inches in diameter, you know, perfectly roundro straight and with giant crowns. Really
gorgeous. >> Okay. All pretty much in that northeast quadrant up against the >> before you get to the before you get to the shrub area. Um, and yeah, in the wetland area. >> Okay. >> Um, and notably, Mr. Taylor's plan does not disturb those trees, it would
appear. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah, keeping any all gave surfaces away from those trees would be ideal. >> So, let's talk about the immediate area of the proposed ement. >> What did you find there? >> So, in the immediate area of the proposed ement um which you can see kind
of see the green uh that's the on the photo. So, what we're looking at there is a series of photos if we go clockwise starting at top left depending on how people like to read. um from 1930 to uh 2020. Most of these chromatic black and
white images. The middle left one is color infrared. So red is actually more vegetation in spring. Uh and so we see there's these this series of photos through the years. Um the long and the short of it is the most of this the area that's going to be impacted by the storm
water is was former department. about when did it become successful? >> I believe based off the air photos uh the change from 56 to 63 and the size of the docks in 63 indicating the size of the trees resolve them in 1963. It was
likely around 1960 that the farms stop being >> so the the bulk of the trees in the area the proposed ement would be about 60 years old. Uh yes, >> the oldest >> the oldest the small portion where the outfall is that goes through the sort of riverbank stand. Those are old trees. Um
I didn't bore any of them. Uh I didn't I didn't think I had permission for any trees, so I didn't. Um but again, we could ask any of that. >> Okay. And in that area of successional trees, are there any exceptional trees we call specimen trees?
I no I would not say there's any specimen trees in the that rightway the highest resource you could have found American beach on the slope near the nearish to where the outall structure is going to be about 33 in American beach
uh and as lovely as it is to have a large American beach um and air magnets and trees they are likely doomed so being in forest health often uh I don't know how many folks heard about beach disease. It's an emerging pest uh started in Ohio and Pennsylvania and
it's in a lot of New Jersey now causes the death of American beach trees. It worms it way for worm their way through the sto of the leaves pores in the leaves. Um there are treatments experimental treatments that have
exceptions for EPA pesticide rules that can be applied. It's not clear how successful they'll be in the long run injected into the trees which cause damage through every two to three years. So this tree if it's not treated it's probably going
to die unfortunately >> and the proposed outfall structure is proposed to be constructed near that. >> Yes. So it's inside the root radius of that tree. >> How much of the root radius is going to be disturbed? >> So depending on depending on how wide
that that is somewhere in the four% >> so a tiny bit of root. >> Yes. So American beach uh depending on the age of the tree uh was going to determine younger trees are much better to adapt to change circumstances. They have an insult to their root zone, they'll be fine.
They're young trees can they're resilient, have fast growth rates. Older trees don't. So older trees have an insult to their root system, it affects them a heck of a lot more. And trees that have any sort of compaction uh is very similar to compaction squeezes the air pockets out of the soil, right?
makes it so that as there's not oxygen for roots that kills trees the same way that flooding can kill a tree. So, uh that's the reason that in urban spaces we often have wet that are planted oak for um so paving or doing any sort of
excavation where you know that tree um and so it's a small portion of that tree but it's a cult tree and American bees aren't exactly construction very construction tolerant um so I'd say that be considered. It'll be difficult to determine whether the tree is dead
because of these leaf disease or the disturbance to it roots probably. >> So >> are there other trees along path right away that are bigger trees that that are sort of important to the site? >> So it depends on on what we what we put
value what's important. There's a lovely quality line. It's probably the result you can actually see some of the uh contra doesn't come out as well there. If we look in the bottom right image, that 63 image, you can start to see rows on the
rows of trees on the adjacent on the field that's going to be >> sorry little too much. >> You think it was planted there as a part of a of a nursery project? >> I think there's there's a large that has value to the
site. That's good there. >> That's good. >> Assuming I'm looking at the right thing. >> A tree being large isn't necessarily high resource value. It's it's what does
>> aside from that lolly? Um are there are there other are there other examples of the trees in that right of way throughout the site? >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, the the trees within that right away really They're not really substantially
different from other places. The the old the old field this lot um that obviously has the youngest trees. Uh there's some older forest uh up here uh in the upland. We're going to be bouncing around on
that thing at a later point. Um so there are uh there are trees that are equivalent in terms of the the river banks stand the older trees they're saying where the alcohol structures there's quite a few similar trees just north
um but similar size to >> I have a question so did you so last year in November after the August 24 land use board hearing Um, and as a result of the request of the residents that were there and the people that gave
public uh uh comments, myself, Scott, our township engineer, Marty, Mr. Gralin, um, and two of their surveyors, we went out to the site and we identified large mature trees so that we would be able to Did you see those trees and do you have
any opinion on the ones that were identified? >> Sure. So, there were a number There were some that were obvious which ones you were Some of them have died. So there's a couple black oaks in there. Larger black oats that are dead as a result of the fire unfortunately
>> on the side. Fire is part of the ecos. >> Um and there's regeneration coming up. So there's I mean when I was out there I saw her species which you expect in new opening. Uh and then also new tree species. So there's baby hes
would hope in a functioning system. Um So in terms of those trees, yeah, I saw there were a couple of white pines that I think were at the beginning uh that were sort of curved around there. Uh I beauties in the eye of the beholder. I would say they're ordinary resource uh
value compared particularly. There's other white oaks, excuse me, white vines of similar character elsewhere on the site really close too. Um and let's see, there was a bitter nut hickory I believe or hickory. uh a few of them that have around it's going to
be impacted a significant portion of that root radius is going to be impacted regardless of the location of the pipe. So um whether or not that pipe was real close to that trunk or far enough away either way it's going to I believe it's going to be enough of an insult to the
root zone of that hickory to kill it. Um so as much as it'd be nice to save those um I don't know that I don't know that it's that they have exceptional resource but also that degree is a bunch of those degrees are showing signs of stress
possibly from fire, but there's also bark lesions on them and I'm not sure whether qualify a whole bunch of shows that they're healing but they're putting out stress branches. And Bernie, in in in your your um review
of this, >> is it possible to to replant trees and and to bring back ecological function of what's disrupted by the season? >> Yeah. So, this is some of the stuff that's in uh if I can go through some of the stuff that was in the report that I prepared.
>> Um so, I worked previous to the my current role data works at US Forest Service for the as a research ecologist and prior to that I worked for the DE forest service for just shy of 10 years uh doing decision support and state land management uh while there I got to see
the inner workings of DE and uh I'm well aware of the some of the internal politics that went on u internal processes for uh the requirement that there be a tree removal ordinance uh passed by towns the ordinance the model
ordinance promulated by storm water folks at uses a linear measurement of diameter. Uh and the idea is that okay, you know, the bigger the tree, the more ecosystem surfaces it has. It would have been worthwhile for that
portion of D to include forestry expertise because the cross-sectional area of the tree is two dimensional, not one dimensional. So a tree that's uh twice twice the diameter is is is not twice the cross-sectional area. So in
forestry we use phase layers cross-sectional layer ret to get at uh most a lot of attributes all the models that are built around the storm water uh the benefits of trees I tree a suite of tools um all of that
based off of diameter cross-sectional measurement all the research papers it has to do with cross-sectional area so we're interested In storm water mitigation, we're interested in replacing lost ecosystem services, the things replaced in a cross-sectional
area, not not linear, not you know the width of the tree. U the storm water ordinance uh that you put out uh if you plot it out uh across where the x axis horizontal is tree
diameter and the y is your proportion of basil area that's being replaced. They specify one and a half inch caliper trees as replacement. You actually get a it should be in figure 60 of the report. Um this sort of soft tooth function where as your tree gets bigger, you're
actually replacing less of your ecosystem services because of how the formula that DP that DB storm water folks not forest service use to uh to come up with their replacement standards. Um I happen to think that that that uh isn't true to the original
intent of the storm water the tree replacement ordinances uh that we should be seeking to replace basil area and that's also important because of the species that are being lost. Certain the the storm water ordinance says for replacement you have to have one and a
half inch trees but not all trees will survive being dug for b for being burlap tree species. You have a lot more opportunity for lots of different species if you can use otheriz plant material. The problem is how do you hold
someone to a standard to replace a certain amount. So to me replace a certain amount of basil area. So instead of replacing you know three trees for a large three little trees for a large tree. We have to uh we have to demonstrate that we're replacing a certain amount for a certain amount of cross-sectional area is going to be
replaced. And I think that you should actually have an increasing amount to incentivize uh the conservation of larger trees. So instead of replacing 1% of your lo area for tree replacement 12in tree uh 1% for a 36 inch tree have
it increase. Have that proportion increase? And so there's a I think figure 61 shows a a plot of that the number of trees or the amount of basil area that need to be replaced in terms of numbers of trees. I think it would be totally worthwhile to replace a certain amount of basil area. That gives
potentially more opportunity to have diversity in your plant material. You can choose for example trees will die if you grow. That's why no one plants trees trees. So if you plant them in if you use container stock you can get bigger trees. you can get hickories and other
things and they eventually will reach the same size. So I think one of the things would be worthwhile is to replace these trees uh would be have a standard that's different than the tree replacement ordinance that that township
passed um and result in more trees total being replaced I think more he was trying to storm water that storm water would benefit from
>> so I see Mr. Taylor nodding to all this. >> Are there are there any more questions? >> I want to get this straight. So, the developer suggesting that we exceed the ordinance requirements and provide an enhanced restoration and deforestation. >> Yeah, we take very seriously the um
obligation to be sensitive to the environmental um services being provided by the trees in that easement area. Take it very seriously and we want to work with Mr. Taylor and his office. We brought you Bernie. Right. >> Right.
>> For his insights, his knowledge, and for his suggestion, >> and I agree, the nonlinear calculation makes no sense at all. You if you want to incentivize the preservation of larger trees, two 3-in caliper trees have a much
smaller cross-sectional area than one 6in caliper tree. Just because pi is >> Yes, pi is r, you know, 3.14. So this uh report that Dr. Isaxson is referencing uh is that something that has been made available to the committee or to the
jailb I >> that was that was submitted to our office. One of the requirements of the joint land use board approval was that the applicant coordinate our office to meet the requirements of the township's uh tree preservation and replacement
ordinance as well as to maximize the preservation of those specimens. So that is being handled as as part of the joint land use board resolution compliance process. I >> I'm sure the environmental commission would be super interested in seeing that report. >> Okay. Yeah, actually we can we can
definitely share that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Bernie, um I'm sorry. Did you see our um tree replacement because ours is stronger than the the state's mandate. Did you see ours? >> So I did. >> You did? Okay. Good. >> Extra category. We have an extra
category in terms of diameter classes in there. You have an extra break point from what the state requires. It still has the same one and a half inch caliber replacements. >> Um >> uh >> we certainly didn't talk to you but we tried to make it but we did try to
>> it's hard pressure on municipalities to to approve something fast and and there wasn't necessarily the consultation the deliberation about what those what those services are reallyed. Um but yeah, I spent a lot of time looking at that ordinance. >> Okay, good.
>> Thanks, Mr. >> Taylor has that report. Um in it is pretty much a cookbook on what Bernie's suggestions are to enhance your ordinance and to take it in the direction he's suggesting that we follow here. Um so I think that can probably be
an evolution ordinance, but not too much more. >> Anything else from us? >> No, >> I don't think so. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Yeah, that was impressive. >> I have a digital, too.
>> Yeah. >> No, I like >> John likes paper. >> It's our easel. >> John likes paper. >> Who knew? >> A lot. Okay.
heard something. >> I can't I can't see. >> Anything else? >> We do have people online, so I don't know that we necessarily gave anyone online an opportunity >> um for comment on this ordinance
>> and you can certainly ask. >> We have three people online. If you have any comments on this ordinance, please unmute, introduce yourself, and commence. Nope.
>> All right. >> Thank you. >> And this is strictly um granting the easement. This is not the easement itself. >> I just wanted to ask if I could fill in a couple blanks. Hopefully. >> Sure. >> You have a second. So, uh John, I think
I'm going to need you on this one. I want to try to touch on some of the things that were brought up that we can kind of hopefully I don't know fill in the blanks. So, uh, last week at the Save Creek turn rally, um, liability was a big thing, um, of a
a variety of different liabilities. So, if someone were to get hurt, I don't know, fall into the creek, trip and break their ankle, those kind of things. Um, what's what's our what's our actual liability to that different than than
anything else? What's your like what's our concern there? >> I wrote down some notes when one of the speakers raised that issue. Uh, possible exposure to the township injury if someone walks over the
easement gets hurt, right? And mentioned improved property versus unimproved property. Um, this is a 21.6 acre park, right? It is 21.6 acres of
largely unimproved, partially improved. Certainly, the area around that Scott has identified around Big Rusty, I guess, is going to be improved. Um, even when that is all improved, how
much acreage will that comprise? ballpark >> less than a quarter of the site. >> Okay. So, come back to the easement which was I think the person's question. The easement is 400 ft give or take by
20 ft. It's 8,000 square feet. The park is 21.6 acres. I did have to Google uh how many square feet in an acre. Uh 43,650 square ft. says 942,840
square feet. So the 8,000 square feet of the easement is 0.00848 acre. That does not convert unimproved property into improved property. There's a case from the Supreme Court late 80s
troth I think it is that says there's got to be a substantial enhancement or change to the physical nature of the property in order for it to go from unimproved to improved under the TOR claims act. So, I'm not concerned about that. Okay. >> I'm not concerned. We also have the
benefit of the landowners liability act, which is a different statute. Um, so from a personal injury point of view, someone getting hurt out there, um, it's not it's not going to be based upon improved versus unimproved. >> Okay?
>> Someone gets hurt out there, it's going to be based upon probably more than likely at the park area, right? And you know we do have liability insurance for that if someone got hurt and even then we have to tour claim defenses you know did we have notice of the
defective condition of that property and so on and so forth. So uh or dangerous condition of the property is the statutory language. Um so just in terms of the hypothetical you gave and that the gentleman gave uh that does not change it from unimproved immunity to improved liability exposure.
>> Okay. And then to go beyond that, um, and just to kind of I guess maybe compare, what would be the difference in our liability with this easement being that there's a little difference to it and like lakeside creek sides existing? Are we is it mirrored? Is it different?
Where are we with that? >> Well, um, >> does that make sense? Am I answering that correctly? >> The lakeside creek side, did you say that that is um our property? All of the storm water infrastructure is ours. The lake itself, the collector of all that
is not. That's that's HOA on that. >> Okay. >> Um I'm assuming any all of the outflow into the ranch is a consideration. I mean that's really what we're talking about here with this 41 unit. >> Yeah. >> Development. Um but we do own we have no
agreement with the Lakeside Creek. So, I don't know the circumstances all about the how how Lakeside Creek Side does discharge into the Rancokus. Um, somewhat ironic that it does, but we're not allowed to. Um,
I would say that if there's no agreement with them, we are more than likely in a better position given that this easement specifically provides that it's simply an easement across the real property that we own. We're not responsible for
the infrastructure. It's not our infrastructure. Um it doesn't become our infrastructure. Um so um not only does the ordinance say that, but uh without, you know, divulging what the draft agreement says that we're going to
be discussing again in close session, um there are plenty of uh provisions in there that um it probably beats a dead horse and says this ain't ours, it's yours. Uh, so I think just based on what Paula just said to me, I would I would
guess that we're probably in better shape. >> Okay. >> So to clarify that and excuse me, Andy. So So the risk of this affecting >> taxpayers with liability and maintenance and um repair over years is
>> it's not Yeah. It's not our pipe. It's not ours. >> It's not ours. Right. and and that's written enough in different areas, >> lakeside, creek side, which we have paid for. >> Yeah, I don't know anything about that, but I would guess that if it's if it's on our property and we don't have an
agreement, it by operation of these new MS4 regulations, it may well become our stormwater infrastructure, which is what we do not want. >> Correct. So, John, what about the point raised by Miss Player about how we can't actually have this agreement because of
the various statutes that she cited? Is is there anything to that? Yeah, I I wrote down what Deb said as well and I wrote down I'll check the I'll check the rags that he's referenced but my um understanding of that disclosure act
and the examples given um you know the there's two there's two points to keep in mind right let's set the land use law issue aside right I'll come back to that because I think that's very important but the purpose of these
um prohibitions against the developer binding the 2B created HOA to a long-term management contract. And I think Deb used the word management a couple of times is exactly that. So that um
Hannesport Developers Inc. doesn't bind this community of 40ome houses to a management contract with a subsidiary of Hannesport Development, Inc. that is going to gouge it for
management fees, right? Um, you can't bind them to accept your management company, your landscaping firm for the next 20 years, your snow removal company for the next 20 years, and guarantee yourself through a subsidiary a 20-year
annuity. I mean, that absolutely makes sense. That's great public policy to prohibit that. And and none of the examples that I heard used an easement. You know, if if you took that argument to its logical conclusion,
when an application comes before a a land use board and the board imposes conditions, right? And those conditions may include a financial contribution towards the recreation u fund, whatever, right?
The homeowner association could say and and and you know, they say and they phase it in. you know, you don't have to pay it until the 50% of the homes are built, right? Because in a small community, people aren't really in that much in need of the recreation. Whatever it is, they
could say, "We're not doing that because we didn't vote on that." I don't care. The land use board granted you an approval on the condition that you do these things. >> It's the underlying. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's part of your approval, right? You can't you can't say, "Well, the HOA
wasn't the applicant." No. Land use approvals run with the land. They run with whomever it is that's developing the site. It's not uncommon for the applicant to flip it to another developer who halfway through the project flips it to a third developer and a fourth the development I live in
in EAM. I think there were five builders in that whole thing called Ravencliffe, right? I mean they're all bound to whatever the approvals were in Mount Laurel and EAM, right? So I respectfully disagree that the
terms and conditions that the land use board imposed, one of which was to come up with a way to treat this emergency storm water o overflow. Right? And I'll come to that in a few minutes because I don't want people not to understand what
really is going on here. Um, so I I I respectfully disagree that that is not a binding obligation. And remember, if you if you end up with an easement agreement with the developer, the easement will be recorded and the easement agreement will be part
of the HOA documents. It will be a binding obligation on the HOA. We're not going to be in a position as a matter of law or fact that we allow this infrastructure to be built. and four years later when the homeowners association is now formed because more
than blank percent of the homes have been sold and now the HOA is in charge not the developer that they'll be able to say well it's not our responsibility I'm I'm I'm not concerned about that nor should you be >> okay I just like to um just clarify a
couple things so the maintenance of the pipe the repairs insurance or whatever it is will not be an increase to our taxpayers. This will be all handled by the HOA. Is that
>> I just want to clarify that? >> Yeah. No, I you know, look, I I'm I've sat here trying to think about how would it be, right? I mean, is there a measurable increase in the amount of taxes that Hannesport taxpayers pay
because you did assume responsibility or at least you're getting responsibility for Lakeside Creekide? >> Mhm. >> Did anybody say that's costing every taxpayer 4 cents more a year? I don't know. But if it is, again, I come back to the idea that under this document,
under this arrangement, you're not responsible and that will not end up being in your lap. Okay, that's what I wanted to make clear so that everybody understands. >> I still can't figure out even how that would increase taxes. I don't I don't >> We went through that exercise with the
claim on bankroft. It failed in 2011. It failed again I think in 2016 and it failed when we were here. We finally redesigned it and um Rosenbergs came and fixed the whole pipe and that was the township taxpayers
paid for that. >> Okay. All three of those repairs, >> reining and all that other stuff >> for Lakeside. >> Yeah. Much different pipe, different >> Okay. >> Different outflow, different volume, different capacity. >> Uh but that did fail three times and yes, the taxpayers think about
>> Okay. So, I have to say that um I've heard of the 100year flood 100. This is the first time I heard of the 10-year flood that you guys spoke about that, but I think that you guys all um presented your information and um and I'm okay with that. I'm good with that.
Um this is the first time that I'm I have heard that lowering the number of homes in the development would mean that we would not need this easement in this pipe. And that's not we
and we have heard today that no matter how many homes are there, we still need this pipe, this easement. Um, and the other thing that was interesting that I had not thought of or heard of was the road off of Bankraftoft into the past
the development that um that that is something that we as a committee can keep our eyes on that and in fact if that is an issue for the people we can make that an emergency exit only. Is that correct?
>> Could be. Sure. It could be. We do have that option. Okay. And that the exit, the entrance from 38 is going to remain open. Correct. Those were some major things
that I had been hearing over and over and I just wanted to make sure that um the residents heard those answers clearly today. So, thank you. >> And if I can expand on that, it is our park. We have sight control of that park. We're actually doing that now.
State police made a request to close the park at dusk and they would open it up at dawn and that has been happening for what a couple months now. >> Yeah. >> Several months now. Um because upon the request. So the point is is either access we maintain site control.
>> Okay. >> Ging, closing down, opening it, lighting it, security >> cameras >> all the above. >> Thank you. Thank you, Scott. >> They had like 20 minutes trees. I just
want quick question. >> Come on up and >> tell us who you are. >> More for the committee. >> Tell us who you are. >> Dave Monero 10 long fellow. Um, with all deference and due respect to the developer's attorney and his obviously affinity for trees, uh, what is the
enforcement and accountability mechanism once they've gotten what they want and they've put the easement in and now they have to put those trees in pirwithstanding. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Who should answer? >> So, we'll address that later. Why don't
you continue with your questions? >> Okay. I >> So, we will answer. >> Okay, Mr. >> We will answer that. What was your name again? I'm sorry. Are >> we reopening? Are we reopening public comment? Did >> you close it? >> I didn't close it. >> Closed it.
>> I will now listen to Fox Court. Um, so with regard to the existing pipe and easement that's currently flowing through Lakeside and Creekide, who owns that and who is responsible for maintaining that and who is deriving the
benefit of that pipe? I think we just answered that, Mr. Leven. >> Yeah. I just want to make that >> the pipe that's running in into the lake there where that used to be the old mine, the old sand mine.
>> Um >> the tensor >> off of Bankro, which is like the name, that's the township. >> So So it's Creekide and Lakeside that are deriving a benefit of that. So why is the rest of Hansport Township
paying for their benefit of this drainage pipe going? Why don't why don't they pay for it? Why does Hannesport have to pay for this pipe that they're getting a benefit of? Cuz I'm paying my taxes and they're getting the benefit of
my taxes and I'm getting your benefit. >> Mr. Levenson, that doesn't have anything to do with the the ordinance right now. >> But more importantly, with all due respect, I think it's a rhetorical question, right? Go ahead. >> Okay, >> I'll sit down. >> Thank you. And I will close public
comments. >> I'd like to make a motion to table this ordinance until January. I think we've heard a lot of new information tonight. Um I for one was really interested in the forestry stuff and I know our environmental commission would like to get their eyes on that report. I'm also
concerned about what their player said and I feel that we need to put a little bit more in into looking into that. Um, this isn't the kind of decision we should run we should rush into hastily. So, what harm does it do to tablet until
January? I need that motion. >> Is there a second? >> There's no second. Okay. Therefore, I will >> Can I answer? >> Ask. >> Oh, we have to answer. >> Yeah. I would say don't forget >> we answer >> we want to answer some >> I think there's a couple things I want to
>> Sure let's do that >> so the the issue of enforcement will come up first of all there's going to be compliance review as Scott mentioned earlier >> right >> and then there is a performance bond posted for whatever the improvements are including the pre-replacement
and then there's a maintenance bond posted on that so there will be a continuing um I think the word inspection may be overused, but certainly an inspection of what goes on for quite some time afterwards to make sure that the the new
vegetation is taken. Right. >> Yep. So, our our office is charged with that responsibility. We will be inspecting the tree clearing, the tree preservation, >> right? >> The street trees, the buffer trees, any of the other plantings that are required by the joint land use board approvals
and the township ordinances to be planned on the site. will make sure that they are planted in accordance with the approved plans, county ordinances and common horicultural horicultural uh practices before any cos are issued
um or bonds released as mentioned by Mr. Gillespie in accordance with the municipal land. Once the permits are issued, once everything is set in place, who then oversees
the township? >> Then that gets handed over to the construction office and the zoning office and administration as well, >> right? >> Without divulging, >> right? You can reasonably expect that there will be requirements in any agreement that you might enter into that
call for continuing >> obligations on the part of the developer and subsequently the HOA to provide reports to the township and evidence of videotape for example of the pipe and so on and so forth. So I think I think
there are safeguards that you will probably require. >> Very good. Any other any other answers? >> That that tree report was a function of the land use board's process which was a
condition of the approval which was already granted. >> Correct. >> So do you normally in those situations forward that information to the environmental commission for their review? >> No. Normally resolution compliance is handled directly through our office and I don't think
that's part of the typical distribution for a project. >> Right. So there's nothing more to be approved. It's just a condition for you which you've been directed by the board as its planner and it professional. >> Yeah. >> To review and ensure compliance. >> Yeah. My understanding the environmental
commission gets plans and reports and things prior to a hearing and then they advise or through their leazison either report or verbal comments at the time of the hearing. >> Okay. So if it will obviously we'll give them that report as a courtesy but so
they received the plans for the December 4th 2019 joint land use board hearing and then they received the plans for the June 22nd 2020 uh preliminary major sub and they also received the plans for the
July 7th 2021 joint landing board meeting and they also received the plans for the August 7th 2024 joint landing board Okay, >> that's my I don't have that in front of me, but yeah, they typically get all the
plans and make either verbal or written comments. >> Are there any other more questions for me? Because if not, I do want to make a couple of observations. Something interesting is that it's it I don't know if I heard this right, but it
looks like that that the HOA is responsible for this completely responsible for this easement in this storm pipe completely >> eventually it will be >> and it's and it's worked out over years and we have a number of we have a number of things with it
>> but it doesn't look like we have that with I'm sorry for the people that are here but the creek side lakeside doesn't look like we have that. Is that something we should investigate on another >> another another day? I >> I don't I don't know enough about it to answer that question. It may be it may
be that that horse is out of the barn. I don't know. >> It sounds Yeah, it sounds like something that to Mr. Le >> that water's out of the basin. >> The water's out of the b run out of the basin. Yeah. So, where does that go? And it seems like that just free flowing into the into the into the rancokus
which obviously would concern a lot of the people here based on some of these comments and and myself as I've concerned at that as well. So I don't know maybe that's something we look at another time. >> The the plans minutes from those meetings to see it. I believe it's once it hits a certain elevation it does
discharge into the raok. >> Okay. >> Um I'll that was one of my things to do this week did not get to. I could find the old minutes. define the engineer and I know it's not specific to this but that's >> to understand the actual out of that
>> structure into the >> I mean I can't don't think we can ignore that now we we've heard this now >> outflow infrastructure >> as well >> right okay all right thank you >> and it is not uncommon 25 35 45 years ago that when a
development was approved the basin lot and the basin and the stormwater infrastructure would all be dedicated to the town and the town would mow the basin forever and maintain that infrastructure. Okay. >> But over the last few decades, the towns have realized the negative implications
on on the residents of the community to shoulder the burden of those new residents of the community. So fewer and fewer basins and stormwater management systems and the pipe itself has been taken on as the respons.
It's good sense. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So, just a couple of observations. First, this and I've read a lot of the stuff that's been floating around and the the concern about the access road. You know, Scott made it real clear
that was part of an approval granted years ago, >> right? Has nothing to do with this storm water discharge infrastructure. The only reason it is tied to the easement now is because after the joint land use board
made its decision, Scott looked at it and Paulo looked at it and committee looked at it and said, you know, if we're going to have that access road that is approved as part of the plan some time ago, why don't we get the developer as part of the easement agreement to stub in the utility lines, right? So that we're not paying for that
to create access to the park for utilities. Um the the matter was litigated in the fall of 2021 over I think there was a recitation about the original storm
water was going to go into Lakeside Creekide and they said you don't have an ement to do that. You don't have a right to do that and they pressed it and they and they were right. >> I remember that they were right. Mhm. >> And so the developer at the time realized that they didn't have the right
to do that. And so you know this they they reached a settlement and the settlement was right. This going back the access road other than the issues related to the discharge of storm water on the planiff's property. All of the approvals and waiverss granted by the joint land use board to the applicants
in the resolution remain in full force and effect subject to any conditions contained therein. The homeowners association agreed to that. Right. So to now say the access road is a problem, you you had a chance to raise that issue back then. The other thing is the developer did not want to come back
to the joint land use board and the township said, "Whoa, whoa, if there's changes to the plan, you're going back to the joint land use board. This is not an administrative change." So when someone says absence of transparency, it was the township that required them to come back to the joint land use board. There were three resolutions
adopted by this governing body in public in July of 2022, July of 2023, and April of 2024 authorizing go and and go to the D, go to the joint land use board, right, to to pursue this this potential infrastructure.
The idea of going across our property to discharge into the creek was not the township's idea. This blaming the township committee, why are you doing this? They're doing it because the homeowners association came up with the idea in October of 2021 and over the next couple of months worked it out with
the developer and the developer approached the township in late January, early February and said, "Can we do this?" Right? And so it was drawn on there, what is it, 400 ft south of the of the park proper?
>> Not interfering with the park at all. No need to save the park. The park's fine, right? The HOA signed a document that says the applicants agree to re-engineer the storm water discharge plans to address a
storm event exceeding the 100red-year storm via an easement to be negotiated between the applicants and the township and or to be retained on the applicant's property. subject to the review of all designs and engineering by the township and JLub professionals and subject to
any generally applicable bonding and maintenance obligation. So it goes back to the JLub. The JLub takes the testimony, hears the evidence and decides in its resolution that
this is the better way to do it. Right? That's what the resolution concluded that the the proposal to go across municipal property is the better way to ensure the proper emergency discharge of the storm water to the creek wasn't the
township's idea. um the idea that that the township hasn't been transparent. You know, we've had public hearings, we've had the joint land use board hearing, we've had resolutions adopted in public on the agenda in advance uh so that the public could see what we're
going to talk about. Uh that we lack due process. This is a legislative proceeding. I'd invite someone to tell me where the due process is that's been violated in a legislative proceeding. This is a policy decision that arose from a settlement agreement between the
township, the developer, the homeowners association, and the joint land use board. Brought to the township by them. If it was fine with them and it didn't impact the park in any negative fashion and we're going to get benefits from it,
the township committee decided in 2022, yeah, fine, that's fine by us, right? But it wasn't the committee that initiated this discussion. And it wasn't the committee's idea. It came from the homeowners association and the developer and they signed an agreement agreeing to
it. I don't know if people knew that. Um, >> thank you, John. >> That's what's before you this evening. And the and the ordinance itself is conditioned upon entering into an agreement. If you never enter into an agreement, you don't have any they don't have an easement, right? So all these
other safeguards we're talking about and that we will continue to talk about in executive session because we're under negotiations and it is not a public record. Um will be will be are there to protect the public, right? That's why it's a policy issue. It's not
a political issue. You know, you shouldn't be threatened with next year's election if you choose to abide by an agreement that you and the association entered into with the developer. And in order for the agreement to be
pursu to go to pursue the discussions about the agreement, the ordinance just sets the table for that. Right? Why would you why would you enter into an agreement if the enabling legislation hasn't already been adopted? So that's why the card is not before the horse,
right? Um and and again the ordinance is abundantly clear as is the agreement that you will sign. It is not our infrastructure. It's not our responsibility and this ordinance does not take effect and can't be recorded
because these have to be recorded until there's an agreement and the agreement becomes part of the homeowners association documents. So there'll be no confusion by whatever homers association is created. It is their responsibility. No one's going to be able to say, "Oh, we didn't know." It'll be in the master
documents. It'll be in the homeless association documents. >> Any questions? No, I just would like to thank you for making that comment about being threatened um with an election because that was going to be my next comment that I took offense to that,
>> you know, >> because the the residents in this town are very very important to us and I work so hard on so many different levels, so many different activities, so many different meetings, so many different
organizations to serve the people of this town. And and it's when you sit up here, these decisions are very hard. They're not easy to make. And we're not making them, oh well, you know, it's because we got money or this. That is very offensive to
us because we have worked very hard. This has been gone on for years. And as elected officials sworn in to do take our responsibilities seriously, when there is a settlement handed down by the
court and agreed to, we have to abide by that and respect that. We're not revolutionaries here. So for the last six or seven or eight years, how long this has been going on, it has been the details, the details that have been
so highly scrutinized. How can we save the trees? How how can we protect the development? How can we um protect the traffic coming in? How can we stop all the nonsense going on at the park at nighttime? All that stuff needed to be
hammered out. And that's why it takes long. has nothing to do with the election or after an election or um the timing of this. >> It was until everything was in place that we could move forward with this. So, I do not like to be threatened
about not winning an election because in my heart I am always going to pray about a decision and I'm always going to follow the professionals and I will take into account what the people have to say. That's why I was so concerned about
having all these issues answered. It was very very important to me that everybody had their answers to their questions and that's the best I can do and I'm going to continue to serve that way. >> That's the best any of us could do.
>> If I could just add one more comment. Sure. Digress a little bit. I think that it's important that >> we don't allow the narrative of this matter to be hijacked into a new conversation. And I think that there have been attempts at that. >> I want to kind of rewind a little bit and talk about the genesis of this park
and what happened. So a committee person had a had heard that the Kleiner family was approached by a rock crushing facility to buy that property. Correct. >> What was it? Sorry. >> A rock crushing facility. >> Rock crushing. >> Yes. >> That's how it all began. >> Right. Because remember it was originally zoned highway commercial and
it was also lot nine zoned for seniors. It's actually per the planners report Reagan design group that I believe Miss Pia and Mrs. Oulen referenced at the last meeting um and also Mr. Kaine and his distributions from last year in the last meeting. Um there were only certain
experts that were hand selected from that three-page planners letter. Um but if I can expound on some of those other things and cover that that wasn't discussed. um that that lot nine that was zoned seniors could actually have
yield 23 more homes. So Mr. Diamanis could have actually bought that and had an even larger than a 41 unit development. Um and there's also still that highway commercial component or the rock crushing facility that could have been there. The governing body at that
time heard that um that particular committee person strongly recommended the governing body look at it and and buy it to save that potential use from the residents of the Lakeside Creekide community. Um and of course on social
media things were swirling. Oh that person's so you know personally benefiting from it. He wasn't. I actually sat down and wrote that check. I've never written a check for that amount of money and it was very nerve-wracking. But um that is absolutely untrue. Um another example of how you can say anything that you want.
You can create so luckily the people of Hannesport are very smart. Hannesport people know what's real and what's not. Um they understand what's propaganda. They understand what's um omitted information. Um what's a campaign, a rally, you know, the buzzwords. It's
clickbait. Um, but you could say anything you want and you can hijack a narrative and create a new conversation. And that's what's happening today. That's what's happening in our world. And we don't know what's real and what's not. And people really, you know, there's a there's a study that people
really only read the headlines and maybe two sentences and they've already made a decision. So in in in strategy, you really focus on that headline and you focus on those first two sentences. But I am committed to ensuring that we recapture the story, we say what the
truth is, and we confront and address any of this stuff that's been going on. Um, in that letter from Mr. Reagan, he stated that a higher density development may have seemed warranted since it's in an isolated parcel with very little impact on neighbors. He further stated
that a more intense development would be imperceptible from a land use perspective if one were not to look at the environmentally unique resource this parcel represents. So he even acknowledged that that is an absolute real possibility and a real use.
The 2017 governing body including Mayor Gilmore approved the acquisition of this property to prevent highway commercial and highdensity housing from this location. So they actively chose to preserve this land for its park use.
Um so this notion that it's now acting moving towards you know um destruction of the park, it's 400 feet away from the park, save the park, it's just it's nonsensical. Um so again, as the administrator, um you know, I'm
committed to um addressing these um these conversations. And I have to say Mr. Kane was the only one that I know that reached out and asked questions. I'm always available. My door's open. I sit I literally sit and eat lunch with
my door open so that I can be accessible to the residents and to the staff. My phone's there. My email's there. We didn't rece I didn't receive any questions or concerns. I didn't get an invite, nor did, I believe, any of our elected officials to the Save the Park rally. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, held
>> it was Oh, in our community center. Um, so I just feel, you know, yes, we're held to a higher standard as government. We need to be transparent and we've demonstrated that. I just I feel like it should be reciprocated. Um, it shouldn't be selective. It should everybody should be invited to the table and and we've
done that. We've demonstrated that. There's been four land use meetings. There's been numerous resolutions passed. There's been, you know, and there have been a lot of people who've come up and and and spoke on this. But um it's important that we address the things that haven't been said and some of the things that have been said. So
thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So with I believe everything being said, I put forth ordinance 2025-16 for a motion and a second.
Do I have that motion? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Ms. Jordy. Yes, >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes, >> Mr. Evans. >> No, >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes, >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes.
>> Consent resolutions. Resolutions. We have three. I need a motion and a second, please. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> Miss Evans? >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick? >> Yes. >> Mrs. Tory? >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore?
>> Yes. Resolution 2025-167-12 recognizing the mayor's appointment of a class 4 alternate number four member to the joint land use board. I need a motion and a second. >> Can I make an observation about this one before we vote on it? Um, this vacancy
has existed for at least 6 months, I think, maybe longer. Eight, possibly 10. It just seems very interesting to me that it's being filled in the December meeting before Mayor Gilmore gives up her mayorship. Now, I don't know that if
it's a if people in the audience are aware, but uh appointing to the JUB is a meal prerogative. Um and so this is basically the last opportunity that Mayor Gilmore would have to put somebody on the JLE when that vacancy has existed for a long time. And this is not an
objection to the individual and I will not be voting against the resolution. I'm just drawing people's attention yet again to a timing issue which the governing body continues or the other members of the governing body continue to pretend does not exist.
>> Thank you. >> Well be running out of time or not. I need a motion in a second. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. Mrs. Tory, >> yes. >> Miss Evans, >> yes. >> Mr. Dick, >> yes.
>> Mayor Gilmore, >> yes. >> Resolution 2025-168-12 opposing New Jersey Senate Bill number 4736. I need a motion and a second. >> So moved. Second. >> Mr. Montgomery.
>> Absolutely. Yes. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mrs. Evans. >> Yes. >> M. Tory. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes. Resolution 2025-169-12 awarding a contract for engineering services for the miss park trail
lighting project. I need a motion and a second. >> Motion >> second. >> Miss Evans. >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> Miss Tory. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Yes. Resolution 2025-170-12 awarding a contract for municipal solid
waste collection. Motion >> second. >> Mr. Dick, >> yes. >> Mrs. Evans, >> yes. >> Mr. Montgomery, >> yes. >> Mrs. Tory, >> yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Hallelujah. Yes. >> Yeah. Good job, Paul. Thank you. >> Yeah.
>> Approval of a business license. I need a motion in a second. >> So move. >> Second. >> Mr. Montgomery? >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick? >> Yes. >> Mrs. Evans? >> Yes. >> Mrs. Tory? >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore? >> Yes. We're now open for comments from the public. Comments are limited to five
minutes. >> And just so you know, we do have two people still online. >> Okay. Miss Plyia, uh Deborah Pia, 50 Braftoft Lane. Um I just wanted to make sure everybody realizes that our neighborhood is not called Creekide. Everybody's been
referring to it as Creekide. It's Creek View. Uh, number one, and number two, I need to clarify what Mr. Gillespie had uh, described during the uh, litigation that went on between Creek View and um, uh, the homeowners association, the
township, and the developer. Uh, I I was working with Mr. Novak, who represented Creek View in that litigation. The homeowners association did not suggest that the easement be uh, that an easement be made. What Mr. What was said
was that uh uh you can you can pipe it to the rankus for all I eye care but you're not using creek View's pond and thereafter and I've got the emails the emails were exchanged between Mr. Gillespie and Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank by the way was not the attorney of record
uh for R&M at that time. It was a Kyle Eingorn from uh another law firm Dembi Brown and something something else. So, uh, the the homeowners association from Creek View has not been has not, um, made any objections. Have there been
residents such as myself and, uh, Miss Soloff and other residents who have objected? Yes. They're exercising their First Amendment right as they are entitled to under the laws of the state of New Jersey. The Homeowners uh, association as an entity has not appeared before this uh, township
committee or the JLUB and made an objection. So, I just want to make it make sure that the record is clear. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Anyone else in the room? Mr. Levenson to Fox Court. First, I want to say that I'm not running for election next
November, and I'm not trying to elevate myself for by reading someone else's words. [Applause] I'm here today to bring to light the lack of self-control and unethical behavior exhibited by Miss Anna Evans.
My statements are with regard to the pipe easement for the 55 plus development proposed for the property behind the Pandora Diner. As a former committee person, I know there is an expectation from the public or a potential danger of impartiality
when issues are brought to the committee. A public hearing of all facts before a decision is made is a demonstration of fairness to all interested parties. Sending a notice specifically to those areas concerned with the easement,
informing them of what is on the agenda before the township publishes the agenda and telling residents how they will vote prevolution of a committee person's responsibility and undermines the process.
I also find it extremely ironic that all of this is done just before the potential election of Unice Evans. An ominous political calculation, political planning at its best. And as you said, I'm drawing attention
to a planning issue. On this morning, Miss Evans that if a decision maker has already publicly committed to a vote before a committee meeting, the hearing is no longer fair and that the decision goes against the builder, which I'm already did in this
case, the builder may decide to file a legal complaint in order to reverse that decision. Miss Evans, this is not the first time you have shot from the hip and your characteristic disrespect for the process may be that could be that in the
future which undermines the very result you are trying to force. People of Hansport, we cannot trust government and we cannot trust the people we put in government to be honorable and do your job as you're supposed to do it. Hansport does deserve better.
Question to John. John, with regard to the release of an agenda, are we allowed to to have access to that agenda before the agenda is made public? And then if we're not allowed or not
supposed to, my question is, where did Mrs. Evans get that agenda or the information regarding the agenda that she put it out to the public through some sort of notice? I I would like an answer on that tonight. I will be guided by the township
committee if I'm going to answer the question. >> Okay. Very good. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Anyone else in the room? Yes, ma'am. [Music]
>> Samantha Lman, 2514 Creek Road. Um, as far as information, we get the agenda in advance, but the ordinance every time I come, the only time I get to see the actual information is when I come in person, um, which is 5 minutes before
the meeting for me to review everything. Um, so there's no time for residents to gain information except in the moment. And you can't expect every resident to be perfect with their information. Um, I do believe other towns don't do it like this. Um, I believe that ordinances
can go out with the agenda and so I would request that you consider that. Thank you. >> Thanks, Sam. >> Yes, ma'am. >> I'm sorry. As soon as introduction of an ordinance, it's posted to our website for an entire month >> that has been public information
>> and it's it's been publicly advertised in our newspapers and it's posted on our board and it's put on our website after it's introduced. So it's been it's usually available for an entire month before there's public hearing. >> It's on the website which is where Yeah.
And then we provide printed copies of the public hearing of the agenda during public hearing. Anyone else in the room? >> Yes sir. Bob mode 202 Lumberton Road Hensport. I want to personally
thank Karen and thank Ken for their remarks. I understand your feelings and perhaps I spoke from the heat of the moment. You do not deserve my disrespect
and you have my respect and hopefully my friendship. We've gotten along before and I'd like to continue to do that. I meant no personal disrespect. The fact that these uh
decisions and everything do have political ramifications is what I meant to say. If I said it poorly, then that's on me. That's all. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> You But you did mean to disrespect me.
>> Thank you. >> Oh my god. >> Joe Thory for Eastn Way Hannesport. Um John, thank you for your comments. Committee members, thank you for your comments. As head of the Republican
committee for Hannesport, we do not run campaigns that are divisive and manipulative of information. We go for truth and transparency.
And Mr. Mr. Mode, what you said, I know you try to be friends with Karen and us and and you're very nice, but what you said is very typical of things that I've seen from others in your party. Stab, stab, stab in the back, step back, and
ask for forgiveness. We want to be one community for each other, with each other. We don't need divisiveness, which is what the manipulation that Bruce talked about happens to be for your political
gain. Anna, we and we've talked, you and I have talked very closely at times about how we can come together and we can all come together, but let's just stop being divisive and being political. Let's all be for Hannesport, all be for
each other because God knows you don't know what's coming to you tomorrow. So we will work to continue Bob, Steve, everybody here, Sam to be uh together as a community. And you
know, John, Paula, thank you for your your time. Scott, great position here. Um, one other thing is development is a reality. Sometimes you don't want backyard neighbors. And if that's what your true
thing is to be against a a development, let's just say that I you know sometimes you don't want that. And but it does happen and you know especially for seniors in in our town. Um people need places to move when they can't go
upstairs. They need senior developments. So you know let's just be be respectful of every resident here and take it into account. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks Joe. Thanks, Joe. Anyone else in the room? >> Online, >> please.
>> Online. >> Is there anyone online that would like make a public comment? >> Then I'll close public comment. Comments from the administrator. >> I think I've spoken enough tonight. I want to wish everybody a happy uh a
merry Christmas, a happy Hanukkah. I will see you on December 30th. So, I won't say happy new year yet. >> Um, but and thank you again. >> Thank you >> for the last eight years. Been wonderful working for you and with you,
>> Mr. Gillespie. >> Just a couple things if I may. Um, one, I would have liked to have responded to Deb, but she's gone, so I'll just let that pass. Um, two, uh, I think the public ought to know in your solid waste collection, uh, resolution and the mayor said, "Hallelujah."
Uh, the township committee rejected two previous bids. Paula did a total analysis of the bids and why they were so much higher than previous years. And so, kept rejecting and rejecting until a
bid came in that was >> reasonable, right? made sense. And so I just think the public needs to know that you aren't just stopped in resolutions, right? You you this was a thoughtful process. Uh Paula did the metrics of of
these uh of these bids and what the last five years has cost you and and you went along with those recommendations, rejected, rejected, now you have something that is affordable to the people. So I just think people ought to know that there's a lot behind that
resolution. Um and then just the last thing I'll say is um so clearly your nine years has been my nine years. >> True. >> Um and I've said this before, you know, uh next week will be my 45th anniversary
of being sworn in as an attorney. Uh the end of this year will mark my 42nd completion of my 42nd consecutive year representing public entities. I've represented them up to six municipalities, sometimes four at a time, fire districts, sewage
authorities, MUAS, whatever. Right. Um, so, >> but you're a lot older than me. >> I am. I got more. >> Yeah, >> good answer. Good answer. >> Tread wear on my tires. Um, over the course of 42 years, I've had the privilege of sitting with over 200
elected officials as the township attorney. Um, and I I've watched, you know, I didn't know you and you didn't know me before I was appointed nine years ago, but you and Frank uh interviewed me to make sure that um you could give me your vote and that you
were making semi-informed decision, right? Um, and I just want to tell you that, you know, of the 200 plus elected officials I've had the privilege of sitting before, you are in the top five. I actually went
through them in my mind. Oh, how nice. >> Rolodex. >> And you were in the top five. It wasn't a rolodex. So, I had uh it was a mental rolodex. >> That took a while, 42 years. >> I won't tell you where you are in the top five cuz you >> I won't push. >> Um but I've just always been impressed
and I mentioned it earlier by your application of policy over politics, by your integrity, by your ethical compass. It is and has been for the nine years I've watched you um unairring. It is always pointed
north. Um I have enormous respect for that. The position you all hold um it's not easy. Not not everybody's willing to put their name on the ballot. Not everyone's willing to knock on doors and ask for their support. And not everybody's willing to take advice from people like us, especially people like
me. Um, and I just want to tell you what a what a what a pleasure and what a privilege it's been and what an honor it's been to sit in this seat looking up for nine years and watching you do your thing on behalf of Hannesport Township. And I wish you nothing but the best. >> Thank you. I appreciate it.
>> Very nice. >> All right. Comments from the committee, Mrs. Evans. Okay. So, first of all, because an answer was requested, um, Bruce, it's Mrs. Evans, and you are no longer a
member of the governing body. The agenda matter has been discussed and closed. Now, thanks to all the people who came out tonight to voice their opinions. You may be disappointed, but I hope it won't prevent you from attending future meetings and paying attention to
planning issues perhaps earlier in the game. Uh since the last township meeting, uh the five of us attended the New Jersey League of Municipalities conference. I have written the report on behalf of the green team, so I'm not going to bore you with it now. Uh I hope you will read it in our next electronic
newsletter. I ran the Robble Tiny Global 5K on Thanksgiving along with several other committee members and uh members of our families and I'm happy to say it was a huge success uh with over 200 registrants and we're hoping it will
become an annual fixture. Finally, I would like to pay my respects to Mayor Gilmore. We may not always have agreed on the issues, but she is to be commended for her nine years of service to the town of
Hainsport and for her work ethic as has been noted by others. Furthermore, I have personally learned a lot from her. I wish her all the best and I know that she will continue to be involved in public service in Hansport. Merry
Christmas, happy holidays. I wish you all a good night. Thank you, Anna. >> Mr. Dick. >> Um, all right. I'll be quick. Uh, normal seniors, second and fourth, Thursday at noon. Uh, they meet at the street center. Uh, fire company, fire duty crew
nights are Monday and Wednesday. They would love your support. Stop by, say hi, tell them what a great job they're doing. Maybe even bring them dinner. Um, they do actually really like that. Uh, specific thanks. So, um, for those of you here last month know, uh, we provided some fresh, uh, Thanksgiving
meals to the local homeless in the area. So, uh, big shout out one to the rec committee first for after the veterans giving us the rest of all of their, uh, their leftovers, which was a pre-Thanksgiving meal for some people. Scott Cooper gave me, um, some
home-cooked meals. Had someone drop it off on Thanksgiving. Uh, Bob and Anna also dropped off some stuff. Karen and Joe, thank you. Uh, thanks to Jen. I know we didn't hook up on the ham. Uh, it was a little too much for me to host Thanksgiving and then take care of that, but obviously it was still there. Um,
and we're going to try to keep doing that. We're going to try to build on that. Um, more home-cooked meals, especially around the holidays. So, I'll keep that out. Um, and along those lines, I did put it out uh on Facebook. Um, I'm looking for 8 to 12 year olds that want to bake holiday treats of any
kind, whether it's Hanukkah, Christmas, or otherwise. Similarly, we're going to try to get the treats out to the um the homeless. And what I'll do is I'm just going to have them drop off at me. As long as it's in a throwaway Tupperware container, obviously you're not going to want it back. Um I will bring them out pretty much throughout till New Year's
Day. And then we'll maybe we'll switch to something else, but we'll try to keep everything topical monthto month for what we can do for the homeless. Um our Hannesport helps groups, they helped with the micro farce, they helped with the 5K, a few other small projects. So, they're going um and I do want to give a shout out to um one of our local ones,
Jamie. She's not here obviously. She is, I think, 14. Uh she attended the Zoom meeting we ran that basically is teaching our older kids how to start their own volunteer program. So, she has until December 20th, she will be collecting anything you would like to
donate for nursing homes and she's going to drop off blankets and candles and things like that for the nursing homes. So, if anyone would like to participate in that, it's on Facebook. Reach out to me. I'll get you in touch with Jamie. I could not be more proud of her for taking the initiative and doing the work on her own. Obviously, mom's helping her
a little bit. She's still young, but she came up with a great idea and these are the kind of things we want to see more of our community do. So, I would really like to make sure that that everyone recognized that. If you happen to know her, tell her that she's doing a great job and also bring her some stuff. Um, last question I think that was out
there. Um, leaf pickup, it will continue. I know a couple people have asked on Facebook. Hopefully, we did answer those questions. Um, brush is halted until February, but leaf pickup will continue relatively within that schedule. Obviously, the winter months and the rain and the snow might slow it
down, but they will continue to go around. So, you should see that getting picked up. And obviously you can usually hear them when they hit your hit your neighborhood. Uh real quick, happy birthday to Karen. >> Thank you. >> Happy birthday. Um he's not here, but a quick congratulations to Jason Cardardonic. He spent a long time on the
school board and he will be stepping down as well as his kids are long gone out of the school. So I think that that's something that would be nice to have in the record. And obviously Leela, um I don't know what else I can add that everyone else added, especially as the junior member here. Um, I will save most
of my thanks for private, but obviously I can't thank you enough for just the years and years of service above and beyond everything else. So, thank you so much for that. Um, >> and lastly, I would do like to thank everyone here for participating. Um, even if it gets contentious, hopefully
we can keep it um, you know, at least at a slow simmer, but that is what makes our community great is that people do want to come out and they do want to discuss and they do want to debate and hopefully afterwards they can shake hands. So, thank you for that as well. And that's me. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Montgomery.
>> Um, okay. So, as Anna said, I attended the New Jersey League of Municipalities in Atlantic City. Uh, I attended the Turkey Trot along with my whole family, which was a lot of fun and would really hope that, uh, others can consider doing
that. Um, we had 239 people that registered, so it it we should have another one again. You don't even have to run. You could walk. There were walkers there. People were dressed up in a whole different all different kinds of costumes as well. It was a lot of fun and a great way to get some exercise
before you pound down that turkey later on. Um, also participated in the tree lighting which was always great and always cold. Um, thanks to Nick Ballard and both all the Ballard families from Jersey Mike who supplied a lot of baked
goods and and all those else who contributed. Uh, great job as always, Donna and Sue. Um, would like to say that, um, I'm very happy that we are opposing the New Jersey Senate bill, um, which is basically usurping
local zoning ordinances. And I can't imagine why any municipality would want to have the state determine that and have individuals just do what the heck they want and completely disregarding the local ordinances. Um, so I'm happy
we're opposing that. Um, God willing, um, they'll listen and the state will not pass that. In fact, I'd like to oppose and join the lawsuit against, um, the affordable housing thing that just goes on across our state, but uh, that's
a whole other issue. Um, happy birthday, Karen. >> Thank you. >> 39 again. >> Thank you. Um, and um, happy Hanukkah, a blessed and merry Christmas. And to my friend Leela, as Andy just said, I don't
know what else I can say. Um, I one of the things that really stood out to me of all the things that have been said is just the the high moral compass. I think John said it. So, uh, thank you and, um, God bless you. We'll miss you and I'm sure we'll see you around.
>> I'm sure. >> So, yes. Thank you. >> And thank you everyone for participating in your local government. God bless our great town of Hannesport and God bless America. You >> Thank you. This is Tory. >> Okay. Um Donna and Sue, congratulations
and thank you for everything that you do. You just keep us all so very very busy with all these excellent excellent activities. So we had the tree lighting which was a great event. On December 11th, Thursday, we're going to have our second annual carolling event. We will
be meeting at the Kenneth Street Community Center at 5:30 for those who would like to come, then have hot chocolate and cookies afterwards. Um, instead of having our annual um gingerbread house contest, we are having
an holiday event at the Kenn Street Community Center, of course, December 13th from 12 to 3. It will be entertainment, crafts, decorate your own cookies. So, we will have gingerbread men cookies or lady cookies
to to um decorate. So, that'll be a nice event. Um we are having our annual house decorating contest. Um and we will be looking at the lights on the 12th, 13th, 14th and the winners will be announced on December 15th. Um it is the
gingerbread house edition. Forms are on the website and at the township building. On December 16th, we are having our Manura lighting ceremony at 6:00 here at the Hannesport Municipal Complex and we are looking forward to
that. Um, and then the mayor's wellness continues on with all her great work. Um, we are having a veterans holiday meet and greet breakfast on Wednesday, December 17th at 10:00. Um, and of course the breakfast will be pair be
prepared by our Navy veterans Rick Murphy and Mark Mury. Breakfast includes sausage, pancakes, scrambled eggs, fruit pastries. So if you know of any um veterans and please invite them, bring them out. We would love for them to come. And then finally,
our Lady Su Hillary is having a murder mystery dinner party on Saturday, January 31st. Um, it should be a lot of fun and the tickets are going very quickly. So, if you would like to come, please contact um a member or Shelby. And with that,
>> I say >> thank you. >> I love you. >> And um I'm not letting you go too far. >> We need you. We all need you here by us. And I hope you continue to work on the things that mean the most to you. And you won't have to do the things you don't want to do, but um stay close.
Please stay close. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I just want to share a few personal thoughts. So, the election didn't go the way I hoped, but I am still grateful
and I will continue serving our community through several committees and staying involved in work that matters. I am extremely proud of my nine years on the dis. I have helped welcome new businesses as
they open their doors, help plan and celebrate our town's 100th anniversary, kicked off a street maintenance plan and started the mayor's wellness campaign that began with the mayor's wellness day and has grown to include both cit senior
citizens and veterans task forces. This year we are focusing on mental health, the senior connection, and the monthly veterans meet and greets. These are just some of the things I will always look back on with real pride.
Along the way, I have made some wonderful friends and I have been to far too many funerals. Both the celebrations and the losses
remind me how close this community is and how much we share in each other's lives. I have always tried to serve everyone in this community, never asking about your
politics, simply focusing on what I believed was the best for Hannesport as a whole. Not every decision pleased everyone, and that's part of public service. But I've always listened, took concerns
seriously, and worked to make the most informed choice that I could. When I think about people I've met and the relationships that have grown from this work, it definitely hits me.
I love this tale. and I will continue doing whatever I can to protect it and support the residents who call it home. I want to congratulate. Scott, you promised that park would be
open before I >> a little disappointed. >> Get a couple weeks. Get a couple weeks >> for this term. Paula and John, without your guidance,
I've always depended on you both. And I'm not ashamed of it. I'm quite proud of it. And I'm a quite proud of what I've been able to accomplish
in this short period of time. When you get to be my age, nine years isn't so much. >> It's a lot to us. >> Thank you everyone. >> Let's pay the bills.
>> I make a motion that we pay the bills. >> I second that. >> Montgomery. >> Yes. >> M. >> Evans. >> Yes. >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> M. Tory. >> Yes. >> Mayor Gilmore. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. So I understand we have an executive session. >> We do mayor and committee. So the first
item is uh potential acquisition of property. Second is attorney client privilege essentially the the continued discussion about the easement agreement right negotiations. My advice to you about that uh and then you have a separate session where we will leave and you'll evaluate and talk about right
>> what you're going to do in January. >> All right. >> Okay. So do can I have a motion? >> Motion. Second, >> Mr. Dick. >> Yes. >> Mr. Montgomery. >> Yes. >> All in favor? >> I. >> We'll take a five minute. Five minute.
10 minutes. >> I think just for the record, I think that um >> because this is going to last a little longer. >> Items one and two. >> Um 45 minutes. >> 45 minutes. >> Maybe half hour. >> Half an hour. >> I'll talk really quick for a half hour
>> and then we can we take a fiveminut break before >> Yes, that's what I just asked. We're going to take a fiveinut break. >> Thank you. >> Good job. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I couldn't I couldn't wait. I had to go earlier. >> Turn the heat off.
>> I had to got a blanket here and everything. >> I know, right? >> Yeah. >> I was going to ask Bruce if he would take Joe home. I am the microphone. >> Who? >> You can leave it on. >> What's he do? >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
>> It's on. Oh, wait. Hold on. Hold on. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I'll find you soon. People stores.