[Music] by area 58. Uh Jerry Jerry's president and Bob Durgen and David and myself. And uh we can start the meeting by our first application.
U Mr. Andrews. Yep. And uh in order to vote on this tonight, you have to get a thing from the conservation. They have to be approved by the
a letter of intent. Yes. You have to get a letter from the conservation before we can vote on it. Okay. And uh we can't do anything tonight until you get a letter from conservation.
All right. Sorry. Okay. So, just to let you know, conservation have to has to approve what what has to Okay. So, we went online to we went online to look at the application and it wouldn't let me get through. So,
I wrote back to somebody on the forum that we have. Um and they said that I had to go to another website to to figure it out. And then we also had to have um was it someone else to take a look at it as well. If you physically come down to the you
know to the town hall and talk to somebody from conservation Yeah. they will directly tell you what you want to do. You know I can't tell you what you what you have to do but because it's not conservation. Yeah. You have to get a letter from conservation that what you're doing is
comp in compliance and all that stuff and then you have to go from there. Okay. Then when you then you come back to the zoning board. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was told because the application for conservation got
lost in the shuffle and I just overlooked it. Um I was inquiring about it and I was told I need a letter of intent. Yeah. Yeah. You have to Yeah. I see. I can't tell you what to do. Okay. conservation will tell you step step by
step and what they want. Then once they okay that then you come in front of the zoning board then we can you know sit here and hash what you what you need to do out. Okay. All right. Sorry about that. That's the next step. Yep. I mean that that's the you know you
have to go step by step. You know you can't jump you can't come come to us and go back to conservation. It's not right. the next time meeting. I know it's just it's just time consuming sometimes, you know.
Thank you. All right. Sorry about that. Casia, we should continue it. You want to Yeah, we can continue it till next month until you find uh what you have to do with the conservation. That sounds great. All right. Yeah.
So, I'll make a motion for CBA 25-8 uh to continue it till our September 8th meeting. I'll second it. All in favor? Yes. David? Katie? Yeah. And myself? Yes. So, we'll continue next
month and providing you get all the information and put it in front of the board. Excellent. All right. Thank you very much for your time, sir. Now we have ZBA2-9-3 39 Ronald. Would you like to read the Yep.
45. Okay. Instead of yelling at each other. Okay. ZBA-25-939 Ronald uh HJ. Okay. The original petition was approved in April for 24x 26 garage which was
later found and was incorrect. The dimensions for the garage is are 26x 26. So a new petition has been submitted to reflect that along with the new denial letter from the building commissioner.
Have you done any work? No. [Music] Well, the the notice of intent is done. The true conservation has already approved it. Uhhuh. So now
you're you're asking for for a bigger one. No, when I was here, you you looked at the plans for the 26x 26. The plot plan was uh for the original application was 24x 26.
We voted on 24x 26. Uh you voted on these plans 26 x 26 but the plot plan was 24 x 26. The one that you saw was 26. There were two plot plans in the application. One
from October and one from March. So they showed us the 24x 26. Yes. So now I've got the 26x 26 plot plan in there on the new submission with the same plot
length with the same plans that you looked at. It's the same. It's going to be the same thing that we voted on, but it's going to be 2 ft bigger. Yes. And nothing has changed. Everything's the same. Yes. So what did you need then? Variances.
The variance was 10 ft 8 in. And that that was for the 26 x 26 that we talked about. But the tw the the original plot plan was in the 24x 26. When I said I had to go get plans done,
the architect drew them 26x 26 with an updated plot plan. I didn't notify the building commissioner that the other plan had changed. So when I got the approval for 24x 26, I said, "Wait a
minute. I need a 26 by 26." So now we have to amend. Is this a new application? That's a new application. New application. Yeah, that's a reapply. Do I have a plot plan?
Do you have this in the Well, that's I don't I don't see I don't see the address on this. Thank you. You heard about You're not going to make me soon. This is the This is the new plot. I think we What we're looking at is
where he's getting the extra 2 ft where we're taking it from. In the original application, was it 26x 26 or was it 24? 24x 26. The original application was 24x 26. Yes. So, I have two variances. One from the
front, one from the side. No, it's going to he's going to be encroaching on the the v the the side that he's getting the variance on. He's going to be closer to the side lot line.
The side lot line looks like 10 ft 8 in. And it's the same is 34, but the house is closer to the road than what the garage is going to be. Correct. Yes. So, you're encroaching. The original was for 12t 8 in and we got the 10 ft 8 in
on the side. And there's a house on that side. Yes. So the house is closest to the water here on this side, right? Yes. Yes. Yep.
Do you have concerns? What would you What were your concerns? I have some concerns. Hello everyone. I'm Chelsea. I live on Ocean Avenue, which is similar to your neighborhood is non-conforming under size. Um, so I'm here to respectfully oppose the request of the variance to construct what is
going to be a 676qt garage on an 11,388 lot in the abs which is high density. Uh, it's own our town is zoned for a minimum lot size of 1 acre. I'm concerned that there's going to be substantial degregation to the zoning
intent because relief may only be granted without nullifying or substantially degregating from the intent or purpose of the chapter. The purpose of our acre zoning is to maintain a low density development, ensure adequate spacing between structures, and preserve the character and open space of our community.
Approving a garage that is proportionately equivalent to adding over 2600 square ft on a conforming acre lot would clearly undermine these goals. In this neighborhood, many homes range from 700 ft² to,200 ft. Allowing a
garage nearly equal in size to many existing homes is effectively permitting the equivalent of a second dwelling in terms of massing and footprint. If approved, this will set a precedent for a lot of underserized lots to seek similar large accessory structures. A
precedent that will become even more significant under the newly expanded ADU laws. The proposed setback of 10.8 ft combined with the neighbors existing setback of less than 5 ft would result in approximately 15 ft between
structures. Conditions more appropriate for dense urban zoning, not acre zoning. This significantly erodess the spacing intent of our setbacks. The hardship must relate to soil, shape, or topography, not personal preference or convenience. A garage is not essential
to the reasonable use of a property. The applicant's undersized lot is a long-standing condition. As such, if the town wishes to provide relief in similar property owners, the appropriate remedy would be through a public process such as creating coder zoning in specific
areas rather than ad hoc variances that chip away at the bylaw purpose. Consistency and fairness. Just last year, a resident with a disabled child was required to build upward rather than outward due to setbacks on a non-conforming law. to now allow a large
garage not living space on a similarly constrained parcel would create inconsistency in enforcement and undermine public confidence in the zoning process. So for these reasons, I request that you deny the variance and revoke your previous acceptance of the
prior approval. Sorry, you think I'm 5 ft from the other? Yes. Do you have a block plan for your wedding property that you also own? you got 10 ft. So still, regardless it's 30 ft, 20, 30 ft, it's still like a city. The point is
is the density that we've set forth in our town is one home per acre. The neighborhoods we live in have like 10 homes per acre. To add a 6 over 600 ft structure to park your vehicles in is like a whole new house. And with ADUs
coming, who's to say that your neighbor with enough space doesn't say, "Hey, he built a garage for his vehicles. Why can't I build an ADU? I think it just sets a precedent that could put us in a position that we don't want to be in in the future. And I just would request that you consider
all the information that I brought. I mean, I I have more, but I won't do that to you. There's other garages in the area as well, correct? Yes. Yeah. There was one that was just put up on um center
two, wasn't there? Yeah. At least one. I thought they had I think there were two lots. They were vacant. They It was very different. And not the whole lot. Was there You have homes in your neighborhood that are 500 square ft. I
have a list right here. There's 6 10,48 ft roughly 17 hillside. No, 26 hillside. 520 ft. These are all in your neighborhood and you're trying to put a garage that is just as large as somebody else's house. 10,000
10,000 just a little cottage. You got more than your home just like cottage area. And when I bought my home, they said there's no way you can make a non-conforming lot more non-conforming. So my thought here is by adding another structure on your
already non-existent non-conforming lot would be extending confirmation. I mean a non-confirmation, which we're not supposed to do. if he was going to um put an in-law or a car in,
he has the right to do that, right? You do, but it has to fit within our setbacks. Yes. I mean, he's the only thing he's he's increasing right now after we voted on it on a 24 by 26
and now he's an extra two more feet. Right. But I don't see the hardship. It's a it's a garage. There's no hardship. It's not living space. It's We all bought undersized lots. Hardship is a size of a lot. Yes. But we knew there's only so much
you can do reasonably without burdening overburdening an already heavily densely populated neighborhood. I'm not I'm not trying to be a fun sucker. Where you Where are you located? I live across the pond on Ocean. I live right on the corner of Ocean at 11 of an
acre. I have my mom lives at the end of Richview. I have a co-orker who worked here that lives on the end of 12th Avenue. There are all these houses. I'm in these areas all the time. They're so tiny. To think about putting a house-sized garage already in those packed neighborhoods just feels like the
exact opposite of why we set in place our zoning cuz I feel like we our zoning was set in place to step away from the clusters and get into more spread out and those neighborhoods are very city. It was made easier in the last 6 to 8
months by, you know, when we had the in-law apartments. Yeah. They the people had to go through a lot of a lot of stuff to get to that. Now, the building inspector that was here, somebody comes in for our apartment,
here you go. You know, they gave him the permit without even coming in front of the zoning board. And you're allowed a 30 by 30 uh a structure for, you know, to to put your cars in, toys, whatever, right? You know, but in our bylaws, there are plenty of
bylaws that we're breaking, you know, there's so many that I highlighted a bunch. I understand that, but you're not allowed to increase the extent. And it says there's two different ones. You cannot
a dwelling building or any structure hereafter constructed or altered in any district shall not be located on a lot having less than or minimum requirements and no more than one except in hereafter. So it's just extending all of these. No accessory build there shall be closer than 30 ft to the front lawn
line. This is pushing number six and it just the whole point here is is that it's it to me feels backwards for the reason that we have zoning bylaws. I I sympathize. But if we sympathize as much, why don't we make amendments to
our zoning bylaws for cluster zoning that give relief to residents like myself and him so we don't have to go through the unfair burden of having to come pay all this money, spend all this time to see you lovely gentlemen when other residents don't have to. If we are
we see the fight, that's totally understandable, but we should be making different adjustments, not disregarding the vitals that we have because then why do we have them? Well, what's the pleasure of the board about this?
I mean, the way we the way I look at it too, that whole section is is tough there. It's it's it's tough down there. They went from just cottages to now their homes. And I think what what I try and look at too is to uh everyone has a has a right to live and if there's an
adjustment and we have done this here in the past for garages that have been put on preditions that have been going in there and the lots are tiny. So what we do we do look at the lot itself to find out where could he put this here on the lot to make it more convenient so he's not looking for a variance. And we look
at this here and there's no place he can put it. You get a septic tanks out front. you get a septic field out back the topography of the land seems to be sloping off so that you can't put it care there or or whatever. So we do look at all these things here that and that
that creates a hardship. So I understand what you're saying but you know there there are other garages that have been put into the neighborhood for the same the same kind of con it's convenience the homeowner. U so we look at a lot of things. It's
not that we're just trying to make presidents. If this here was something different where he could put the garage somewhere else, we might we might say there's no hot chips, so you can't have it. The way this the way the lot is shaped. Yeah. It's it's he he he butts the he butts the the the
pond and there's a house, then there's a garage. There's no way to go. But he owns the other house there, too, right? Yes. You own the house next door. Sold in the future. they could be not owned in back ownership at some point in the future, which means the future resident is going to be subjected to
like current changes. And I do understand I understand how packed it is and it's hard to be rigid and to be to find an easy medium and it's hard to just want to be like no you can't fit it, you can't fit it. And it I get it. It was a it was a mistake on I don't
know what the application was the first time. If it was done from the beginning, a 26 26 would have gone it would have gone through and it went 24 by 26 and to
say no to them would be that 2 ft ain't going to make that much difference. But it's not 2 feet. It's two square feet to add on. I know I I understand where you come from, but uh we approved a 24x 26 and now to
deny a 26x 26 which he originally put in for and I don't know whe I don't know where the mistake went in his how it was different plans didn't tell anyone offered them to you had to approve them knowingly that they were different than the thing that he was coming to approve.
We didn't know that. It feels I set the updated plan with the the drawer. Yeah, I attached this, but I didn't tell anyone. It's too totally If you're not notifying anybody that you've made a difference in your square footage, that's it. Feels to me kind of
deceptive. I knew when the square footage was higher, so I just attached it and and hoped you guys would notice that I made this amendment, but my permit that I came for in my denial was for 24 by 26. And you knew you had a different size.
You weren't clear with the board and it feels disequal. No, I put a 26 I put the updated plan in to the um permitting process.
Did you amen permit to say 26 by 26? On the same day that these plans went in. Okay. I'm not here. I'm not in charge of the board and I'm just here to advocate for the future of the town and already pack zoning. That's it's not personal. I'm I
really am apologetic cuz I don't want to be that guy. But we're already so dense over there. So to think more more and more and it's just the next person's going to come and they're going to want a garage too. And what if every person on those streets wants a garage? No. Put yourself in his shoes. If it I need a garage.
Was that No, no, no. I'm just saying it was an application that was put in. mistake was done and we're trying to correct the mistake. We voted on a 24x 26. It was unanimous and to
tell the guy right now because you're adding two extra square feet to the to the the thing. It's like he spent all this money. That's beside the point, but it doesn't change the hardship is what? Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't change the
hardship or the topography. No matter no matter what you do, the land is going to be the same way. The hardship is is the hardship. Doesn't feel like a hardship. Small view. We all know what size our lots were in this town. But I get I don't feel like it's a hardship. But but I mean we do the same thing for
people that are putting additions on. Eric Langenberg built up. You wouldn't let him expand. There's a lot of times we won't they won't go up. It depends upon, you know, the the size of the roof and everything else on it. But I mean, do you think those relief? We look at we look at everything on and
the if the land does not give the uh the applicant the you know the land itself if it's not applicable for for it, then we don't we don't approve it. If there's no hardship, we don't approve. It's a garage though. It's not living space. It's not like he's trying to add
on space for his family. If you okay we we're going to say let's say we say no to him and this guy next door he has the he doesn't have any hardship but he wants a 30x30 and okay you have a 30x30 and how do you tell this guy that we
already approved a 24x 26 now you he comes back with a with a revised uh petition that it's 26x 26. This guy had a 30x30 and he had they have the same law the same lot. What do you say to them? I understand. But sometimes we have to
say, "Hey, we realize that I'm not saying I'm not saying you made a mistake. Please say this." But like that's what happened then. But moving forward, that's not how we're doing things. Cuz if we keep doing it, it sets the tone. And I'm not saying anything. That's why I respectfully request that you deny this and revoke your approval
of the last one. So it's not saying, "Yeah, that makes sense, but 2T more doesn't." Because it is ridiculous. I can see the ridiculousness of the two extra square feet. Once again, I'm really not trying to be the bad guy here. No, I I hear what you're saying. You know, you you're looking at the whole neighborhood and and we do the same
thing. There's a lot of things we try not to deny a lot of people on on their their requests, but in in some cases we do because they're they're building it too large or they're um they're you know, we try to make them downsize it a little
bit. So I mean what is the vote then? What do you think? Well, watch everybody look at me. What? You're voting on this. You're voting on it. Opinion. Who picked up the mistake?
I picked up the mistake. So if you didn't pick it up and you get your contract and you stop building, you're going to be building a 26 by 26, right? Cuz that's what you thought. So when I grabbed the approval letter to go register it at the U registry of
deeds, I picked it up here and I said, "Wait a minute. This says 24x 26." So I came I went over to the building inspector's office immediately with that as soon as I picked it up. And I said, "I think you're just going to change it from 24 to 26." And he said, "No, no,
wait a minute. You got two plans in here with the same date." And I was like, "Okay, so what am I going to do?" And he said, "Well, you can do a 24x 26 or you can reapply for the 26 x 26." So if we say no, are you going to build
a 24x6? I'm going to I'm going to have to. Yeah. I mean, you you already approved the 24 by 26. I know. I mean, you might as well bite the bullet and take the 24 x 26 because I I don't know. I mean, I'm just my my
personal opinion. I mean, a lot of people that 24x 26 is done in the books. It's already been approved, plans are built and it's it's gone. They you now you put a brand new application in. Yeah.
Unless you're planning on buying a lot bigger truck, I'd go with the 24 26. It's approved. Okay. I know. Two ft. The width of this table. Yeah. So with the two doors opening up
into each other inside the garage cuz I need I need egress from the house to the garage which is when I originally looked at the 24x 26 I figured 3 ft and 3 ft on either side would give me the room that I
needed in the interior but in order to satisfy the needs of building codes I need 4T on one side and then I'm going to be crooked on the other. catch the two feet and he was saying understand agree but he's here he's
applied you roll the dice right don't also right but also if we vote on it tonight you need all four of us to say yes unless you wait till we have five members then you need four yeses and you can have one
no but that's up to you how much longer can you wait how How much longer can I wait? I mean, they put us sticking a shovel in the ground. I've already got 10,000 bucks into plans commission. Uh the the conservation
commission. You've been approved by all the people. I have been approved by everybody. Okay. And I mean, if like Mr. Den said, you need four votes in the affirmative to pass it tonight. Mhm. And if you want to wait till September
and you'll we will we'll have six members here. You need you need four out of five. Now you need four out of four. It's it's your call. I mean either either you we're not going to tell you what to do.
We're just telling you what the facts are. You know, I think you have a hardship the size of the lot. You're 11 ft off. You're not two feet off. That would be a different situation. You're 11 feet and the lots are already small. It's already tiny. I understand
what you're saying. I agree. I'm I'm consider myself reasonable. So, I mean, if one of us votes no, you're dead on the line or he's does the 24x 26. Yeah. Yeah. You go back to 246.
Okay, let's roll it. If I wait another month, then I have another 20 days on top of that before I can even go and put it put it into the registry and I'm already in October. Huh.
You're already into October. Exactly. They're going to be building in November and December. It's just It's just going to be a shell, right? Huh? It's going to be a shell just with the There's no loft upstairs going to do storage. Just a regular Right.
So, what is it going to be? 24 x 26 or 26 x 26? Let's try the 26 x 26 right now. We'll see what happens. You sure you don't want to wait till we get five members? 5 minutes. Can I Can I vote? Can I
You can speak. What's your name? It was Oliver. I own the house on 28 and 98 on 28 and 9 8. I understand, you know, the hardship and all this and we all know it's a small lot. Ronald has been approved by you guys and he brought
out and honestly came in back and said, "Hey, we made a mistake." He came in front of everybody. He could have just added the two feet. Nobody would have questioned the two feet. The building department would have questioned it and then he would have been he would have been a problem. You know, if he had to go to get a loan,
it would have it would have shown on it would have shown, you know, so very honest. He came to to you. He made the right choice to come back and say, "Look, it's wrong." You know, otherwise I mean, you got to you got to get four
out of five. If if you two of us vote no, you would wait two years. Well, four out of five. If if two of you even if with five, if two of you vote no, I got to wait two years, right?
Yep. on site 30 days. 30 days isn't really that much to, you know, to hold on to it and get you, you know, whatever you want. It's not just 30, it's plus the 20, so it's 50. It's almost 2 months. Yeah. But
on site, anybody? What's that? Onsite. I'd like to go see the on-site. You want to make a motion to go on the onsite? Anybody else? We we'll take we'll I I have no problem going down and looking at the site now.
Anybody want to make a motion? [Music] Go ahead. You can make a motion. I'm familiar with the area. So, um you want to see it though? Yes, might as well. I'll make a motion for an on-site. It's
generally the Saturday before our next meeting. Um our next meeting was September 8th. So September 6th. Second. All in favor? I. What time?
Next meeting is September 8th. Thank you. What? Um just mark it where you want to put it. Put four four stakes in the ground where it's going to go. Okay. And we'll go in there and look at it and
we'll come back and we'll give you our decisions then. Okay. 9:00 work. What's that? 9:00. 9:00. It's 9:00 Saturday. We'll be having Yeah. Sorry.
No worries. So, I'll make this mistake becomes a big problem. Well, yes. Uh, it's adding up. I'll make a motion to continue ZBA 25-9 till our September 8th meeting.
Second. All in favor? Yes. I thank you. We got the minutes of uh June 9th, 2025. What's that? Yeah, you can be there.
Rest of the rest of the board. You'll know. You'll be notified that there's a walk through. Yeah. Anybody read the minutes for uh to June 9th? June 9th. Yep. Any corrections? Any deletions?
No. I think we're good. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of June 9th, 2025. Second. Yes. All in favor? Yes. It passes and we already signed the bill. All right. So, we're going to we're
going to approve the bill now, right? Okay. I'll make a motion to approve the two bills uh for Express Newspapers. When you're supposed to ask I was told I could each worth $100. Yep. Any second for the bills? Second.
All in favor? I All righty. The bills are all done. Thank you, Danielle. Did you guys do 67 Link Street? I had a hard time getting on. So, what's that? Yes, we did. You did? Okay.
Yeah, I did. going back to conservation. Okay, perfect. Thank you. That that was the first thing we did was that he has to go back and get approved from conservation before he comes in front of us. Two feet. Thank you.
[Music] I don't think we have discussion. I don't think we can have discussion. No. Is the difference two feet? Motion to adjurnn. Motion to second. I I I
have a good night. [Music]