Okay, we're good. >> Okay, one second. >> Hey, what's going on here? >> Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to call the meeting to order. Thank you all for being here.
>> Uh this is a meeting of the Hillsdale Burough Council on this 10th day of March, 2026. Notice of the time and place of this meeting has been provided to the Bergen record as well as posted on our website as now required by public law. Um a copy
was also posted on the bulletin board outside of the meeting room and provided to any interested parties. Please silence your cell phones. Wait to be recognized by the mayor during the public hearing and public comment portion of the meeting. You will need to state your name and residence for the
record. Uh will everyone please stand for the pledge of >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
>> Thank you. Will the clerk please read the role? >> Council member Camp >> here. >> Council member Kleti >> here. >> Council member D. Rosa >> here. >> Council member Mazuchong >> here. Council President Oros >> here. >> Council member Ruko >> here. >> Mayor Shinfield >> here.
>> Uh we're going to try to get the portion of the meeting with all the legislation and general things that we do handled up front. So you'll just be patient. We'll get to the reason I suspect that most of you are here. So uh give us a couple
minutes. Uh let's start with the approval of minutes from the council meeting February 3rd. Can I get a motion? Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Motion passes. Council meeting minutes from February 10th. Motion. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor?
>> I. >> And the motion passes. We're now going into adoption of ordinances. 2606. And this is why I have water. I'm do a little reading here. Um to amend the supplemental ordinance 0901 chapter
138 fees and chapter 71 swimming pool commission. Can I get a motion to open the meeting for public comment on 2606? >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> Those in favor? >> It's open to the public. Uh is anybody
interested in commenting on the uh ordinance 2606. Seeing no hands from the audience, can I get a motion to close? >> Motion to close. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Great. Um, now we can get a motion to
adopt ordinance 2606. Motion. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> Is there any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor? >> I. >> It is approved. Now, therefore, be it resolved that this ordinance is adopted and the burl clerk is authorized to
advertise the same according to law. Now, we're moving on to 2607, an ordinance establishing salary ranges to the staff of Hillsdale swimming pool commission in the burrow of Hillsdale, county of Bergen, state of New Jersey. Can I get a motion to open the meeting to the public on ordinance 2607?
>> Motion to open. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Does anybody want to be heard on this motion? On this ordinance? Seeing nobody, can I get a motion to close on 2607? >> Motion to close. >> Second.
>> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> We are closed. Can I get a motion to adopt 2607? >> Motion. >> Second. Second already given. Uh any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor? I
>> I now therefore be resolved that this ordinance is adopted and the borrow clerk is authorized to advertise the same according to law. 268, an ordinance amending chapter 310 article 34 development fee ordinance to amend the development fee ordinance in accordance
with the NJAC 599 regulations. Can I get a motion to open it to the public? >> Motion. Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I >> It is now open to the public. 2608. Does anyone have any comments on it?
>> Seeing none, uh, can I get a motion to close? >> Motion to close. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Motion to adopt 2608. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> Is there any discussion? >> All those in favor?
>> I. >> 2608 is now passed. Now therefore be resolved that this ordinance is adopted and the borrow clerk is authorized to advertise the same according to law. 2609 ordinance amending chapter 310 article 33 affordable housing regulations to amend the affordable
housing ordinance in accordance with the uniform housing affordable affordability controls. Can I get a motion to open this to the public? >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor. >> Anybody want to comment on affordable housing,
>> please? Come on up. State your name. And >> I'll win the road. Just a quick question on this. Is this to amend our uh bylaw, excuse me, the ordinances in conjunction with the state law or is this something new? >> Yes. >> Thank you.
>> The last two or three have been because in December the state changed the administrative code as to affordability controls, development fees, etc., etc. We have to bring our ordinances into compiance with the current state. Second.
>> Okay. Anybody else want to be heard on 2609? Seeing nobody, can I get a motion to close? >> Motion to close. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Motion passes. A motion to adopt. >> Motion. >> Motion second. >> Second.
>> All those in favor? >> I. >> Motion passes. Now therefore be it resolved this this ordinance is adopted by the borrow clerk and the burough clerk is authorized to advertise the same according to law adoption of 2610 an ordinance of the
borrow of Hillsdale County of Bergen adopting an amendment to the Hillsdale Patterson street redevelopment plan. Can I get a motion to open the meeting to the public? >> Motion second. >> Second. >> All those in favor. >> It is carried. Would anybody like to
speak on 2610? Anybody from the audience? Seeing no one, uh, can I get a motion to close? >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Great. It is closed. Can I get a motion to adopt ordinance 2610? Motion.
>> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> 2610 has now passed. Agreed. I lost here. Now therefore be resolved that this ordinance is adopted in the borrows author the borrow clerk is authorized to
advertise the same according to law 2611 ordinance of the borrow of hillsdale county bergen state of New Jersey restating and and supplementing chapter 292-28 of the borrow code entitled time limit parking in all zones of the burrow. Can I get a motion to
open discussion on 2611? >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor. >> We are now open to the public. Would anyone in the public like to comment on ordinance 2611? >> Seeing no one, can I get a motion to close? >> Motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor?
>> I. >> Great. Okay. We're going to move a motion to adopt 2611. Motion. >> Discussion. >> Discussion. >> Yeah. >> So, >> you can't have discussion. >> We have to first we have to we have to first second it then >> first. Anybody want to motion?
>> Second. >> Second. >> Okay. Discussion. >> Discussion. Okay. Councilman Kelli. >> Um, under section B3, electric vehicles should not park in an electric vehicle charging station parking space for more than 4 hours. So, I believe these are T3 chargers and they should be able to
charge a car pretty quick, I think, in a much shorter period than four hours. Correct. >> Like a half hour, 40 minutes. >> Yep. >> So, aren't we limiting our ability to turn it over >> by going with a 4 hour >> as opposed to like a two-hour limit?
Is that a material change in your in your estimation? >> No. If we wanted to make that change, I would be fine with that. I I am frankly not sure what the better policy is or is that a uniform? Is there an issue of uniformity there, but if there's not,
Mike, and it makes sense, I I certainly don't think it's a >> it's not a change of the verbiage. We're just altering the time. >> Yeah. We we looked at other towns >> other town
but maybe they they use uh the slower chargers. >> So they have one >> they have four they have six. >> Yeah. >> So since we're having highspeed chargers now it's possible >> I think two hours might
>> you do have to provide an opportunity for them to do their business downtown. So >> that's what two hours two hours an hour >> two hours will give that opportunity and they move their car elsewhere after that. >> Okay. So so we want So there's there's
discussion here about modifying it to two hours. >> Yeah. >> Does anybody else have any comments or thoughts on that? >> Fine with it. >> Anybody? >> I have I have another discussion item, but first we have to go vote on this amendment. >> Right. So um so let's do it. Um, let's
do this as far as adopting the amendment to modify the uh ordinance from 4 hours of parking to two hours of parking. All those in favor? >> I. >> Anyone opposed? Okay. Councilman, do you have another
second where asked clause says that the Burough of Hillsdale encourages its residents to buy electric vehicles. When did we make this policy decision? Because I don't recall it ever coming up for a vote in prior uh council meetings. I thought that we had discussed about >> we already modified that the last time
>> talked about modifying that >> to realize that that >> correct to to >> recognize that that they're >> remove the concept of encouragement was going to be >> right. I mean that that's what we did on a resolution. >> Yes. >> Right. But this is an ordinance and like
you know do we in local government really want to get involved at this point in the business of encouraging our residents to buy certain mechanical devices over others? um you know do we want to do that through official legislation in the environmental debate over what vehicle citizens should buy uh
it's a it's a contested issue and I really have always felt that we have enough challenges already in the bureau trying to maintain services and provide them at a reasonable cost and to get involved in this type of um part maybe partisan or or national issue. So I
motion that we amend ordinance 2611 to delete the existing second whereas clause ent in its entirety and replace it with the following and it's very short whereas the governing body wishes >> hold on a second Denise you're writing this fine >> very short Denise and Denise I'll give
it to you afterwards and I know you tape it so this is like a phrase whereas the governing body wishes to accommodate the residents of Hillsdale and others who have purchased EVs >> mayor if it matters I I have no objection to that. Frankly, Councilman
raised that comment at the night of introduction. I thought we had made that change already and if we failed to do so, I have >> no it was my failure in failing to raise it with this ordinance when we introduced I raised it with respect to a resolution. >> Oh, I knew you said it somewhere
>> and was inconsistent in applying it to the audience. >> Okay, fair enough. No, no issue. Is there is there um a specific uh there's nothing nothing that holds people liable or no legal thing that comes up about
encouraging? >> No, the councilman is just saying that we we haven't set a policy and decided that. So he wants to make sure that that's not what we're doing in this ordinance as a one of the whereas >> will the clerk please read back what the language is? >> Yes. No. >> No.
>> I can repeat it. >> Okay. Please repeat it. Sorry. Yes, >> just delete the second whereas clause and insert instead whereas the governing body wishes to accommodate the residents of Hillsdale and others who have purchased EVs. >> I think that's very fair. >> And mayor, this is just to make the
language consistent with the changes that we have. >> Yeah. Well, we haven't as a governing body, we haven't taken a position one way or the other, and this just sort of makes this as >> this an opportunity to take a position. Would you like to take a position on
this this evening? >> Well, perhaps we should. >> There should be other other things, but I I voted against it last time. I voted vote against the amendment this time. >> Okay. >> So, with with uh Councilman Rico's
modification, >> we need a second. >> We need a second for that. Does anyone want to second that? >> Second. >> Second. Okay. All those in favor? >> I >> opposed. >> Uh yes. Okay. So, we have one opposition. It's 5 to one. Okay. Uh, are
there any other discussion items on ordinance 2611 adoption? >> Okay. So, we've already first and seconded it as modified. Um, >> can uh and it's already been introduced. All those in favor of the resolution as
now modified. >> I. >> Anyone opposed? >> Nobody >> opposed. >> You're opposed. You're opposed to the Okay. So he's >> 5 to one. Uh and now therefore be it resolved that this ordinance is adopted
and the burough clerk is authorized to advertise the same according to law. We are going to move on to our consent agenda R26076 through 2609. Does anybody have anything that they want to take from the consent agenda to
offens? I think they want to pull one uh resolution 26085 >> the callers is going to be pulled. >> Okay. So, so now we are passing resolutions >> 26076
through 26090 with the exception of 26085. And it's >> 2609. I thought we were discussing that or no. >> You want to pull it to discussion? >> You want to pull it for discussion? We can
>> it's in the pull for disc pull for discussion. >> Okay. So, we're going to pull 26090. Okay. Can I get a motion then to uh adopt the resolutions 2676 through 2690
removing 2685 entirely and taking 26090 to the off consent agenda for discussion. >> I'll motion for adoption. >> Second. All those in favor? >> I. >> Anyone opposed?
The consent agenda is passed as discussed. Uh, Councilman Kleti. Uh, can I get a motion for 26090? >> I motion. >> Second. >> Second. >> Okay. Discussion. >> So, this is the ordinance prohibiting
westbound traffic from making a U-turn to travel eastbound on Hillsdale at the intersection of Hunter Court in the borrow of Hillsdale. Um, this references the county ordinance which just I believe we haven't seen yet. So I'm wondering if there's anything in there
since as part of this resolution we're giving the mayor clerk professionals authorization to take any and all appropriate steps what that could impact. So is there are there any cost obligations any statuto or is it clean just to get funding? >> It's not even funding. It's not even
funding. It's basically it's a county road. So, in order for us to get, we could otherwise just say we're going to put a no U-turn sign on, but because it's a county road, it goes from us and then it goes through a package of ordinances with the county and the county says we're going to pass this
along with every other municipality that has these kind of road signs that are on county roads and then we go ahead and we put up. >> So, it's literally just a form to show them that we >> we're asking them to do. We're asking them to allow it to be done.
>> And mayor, a question I had raised earlier uh before the meeting. Uh this would still allow residents to make a turn into Hunter Court, >> make a U-turn there and come out. >> Yeah, they could. There's a it's a dead end. They could go around the act or however they you know, whatever whatever
they do at that point. >> It's just this is to prohibit the actual U-turn on Hillsdale. What ends what's been happening is that during school hours, people come down the hill and they see the long wait and they don't want to do it. They want to go in another direction. So, they just do a U-turn in the middle of the street and
they go back up towards the farm and take a right turn and come. So, we're trying to prevent that. So, if they want, if they see the traffic, you don't want the traffic, take the turn, go turn around where it's safe, don't impede traffic, and then come out and make your left hand turn back up. >> And I think the volume actually increased because I don't think they let
you make a left out of Smith anymore. Oh, so now they're making a right and making amend looking for a way to go back. >> So then they're looking for a way to go back. Okay. Um so it's been introduced. Um all those in favor? >> I I >> Anyone opposed?
>> 26090 passes as well. After discussion correspondents, we received an email on >> Oh no. I thought it was pulled. Did you pull it completely? >> 260. >> No, it's pulled. Oh, you wanted to discuss it.
>> I thought you were pulling it completely from the agenda. >> I wanted So, can I get a motion for 26085? >> Motion. >> Second >> to discuss. Right. >> Yeah. To discuss. Yes. Motion. Discussion. >> Yeah. I wanted a table to next week when we had Nick here from Collers to
identify whether or not um it is a requirement of ours to put this barrier up. I believe that he would be able to provide that answer to us without having to spend $9,500. >> So, >> okay, this is for the trees, right? >> A barrier, right? I mean, this was a
concern when, you know, we woke up one morning and there was 30 trees missing and uh now that the setback has been reduced for the basketball playing field over there, uh it was a concern that was raised that if the cars um were to venture off that road, was there a risk
to the public? Right. >> Okay. So we So all those in favor of of I guess at this point we got to table it. >> Those in favor of tableabling it then >> you need to you made the motion to table. >> You made the motion. >> I'll second it. >> Okay. Those in favor of tableabling it till next week.
>> I >> Anyone opposed? >> The resolution is tabled until we can get uh discussion from the representative from college representatives. Um email received correspondence on 21426 from Virginia.
Chris Chris Aluso supporting the cell tower. Uh I'm sorry if I butchered your name, Virginia. Motion to accept and to receive and file. >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> Great. Okay. Now, we've already done our
non-consent. So, it's initial public comment period. Uh do you want to go through what we've kind of outlined for how we want to do this? Initial cover comment is any item other than cell. >> Okay. So,
so any discussion, anybody that's got a comment to make uh that is not cell phone tower related, we're opening it for discussion. Um initial public comments. Does anybody want to be heard, please?
Please state your name and resident. >> Kurt walking out 19 Hopkins Street. Uh you just said that there's no discussion till next week about all the trees that were taken down. >> That's correct. We just tabled that until >> No, I know. Was it next what? Next Tuesday. >> The 17th. Yes,
>> the 17th. One last question. My grandson plays softball. used to play the Sunday mornings. Are we can we go to another town to play use their fields to play softball because we lost the two fields now. Can they go on to like what could
play >> part of a league or >> Well, it's No, it's more or less just seven guys. No, the guys just got there on a se Sunday morning. They always played Memorial. Now that the field is gone, can they go to another I mean >> that would be up to that town. Yeah, that and it depends upon whether or not
whether or not you'd have to reserve that. If somebody else had that field reserved at that time, you would either ask to reserve it. I I I assume it was more sort of a we came out here and we were all playing around, >> right? It's like uh 10 guys, they played
softball Sunday mornings. Now pickup is gone. >> As long as you as long as the other town doesn't give you a hard time, if they already had that time allotted to somebody, then you're going to have to vacate the field probably for for for the ability for you to have shity that you'd be able to do it. I would probably
call another town and say, "Can I reserve?" >> Oh, so you got to call like who do you call it? Another town of those town >> and just ask him if he my grandson can play Saturday mornings otherwise a lot of the time uh of the field. That's
>> I mean it's the same thing like now with the little league I don't know where they're going to play this year. >> Hopefully we'll be at Memorial soon enough. >> Okay. Thank you. Okay. >> Good to see you again. >> Yeah. Any other questions? Okay. Um the
initial public uh comment period is over and it is now time for the discussion about the about self-s service. Do you want to >> sure uh so we are happy to have uh representatives from Verizon here
tonight. Uh the plan is to have the ver the Verizon engineers make their presentation. And then we also have our own report uh Mr. Lupo and Mr. Pearson maybe you know just a highlight of the report and then we'll take questions
from the council and the mayor for Verizon and for soo and Pearson and then after that we'll open it to the public uh three minutes each u you and we are hoping that you don't repeat the same question. So if if one question is asked
from the council or or the mayor that you don't repeat the same question just so we can uh hear you all and then after that uh we will open again to the public and you can ask your questions or make comments if you have uh anything that
you want to say uh in the three minutes then we'll go back to Verizon and to Mr. LOPO uh if you can answer any questions uh at that time from the public. Uh so all the questions will be directed to us from the public. We will take them down and then we will pass them out uh to
Verizon and to Mr. Lup after that. Hopefully it's um it will be three minutes each and we'll keep time. Mr. May, anything else you want to add to this? >> No, I'm just making sure we have an easel out there because I see that people have >> Well, we have it online. We have on screen. Oh, but there's >> it's the same one. No other of those.
>> It's the same one, right? >> We could use the easel for a couple other apps. >> Okay. >> So, might as well make sure you got that. We have >> Okay. Um, if you want to pull seats up, I it's a it's a tiny little >> I Okay. However you want to do it. That's great.
>> Um, we'll get you a chair. >> Stand. >> Oh, you brought your own stand. Okay. >> I've been sitting all day. >> Okay. Well, no. Let's you know, you could get end up with a bunch of questions. All right, go ahead. State your name and >> who you represent how we got here. Let's let's do this.
>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of the council. Robert Gdioso with the law firm of Snyder and Snyder on behalf of Verizon Wireless. So tonight is a public information session and the reason we're here is back on June 17th of 2025, the burrow
issued a request for proposal to place a wireless telecommunication facility at the Stony Brook Swim Club at 183 Cedar Lane in Hillsdale. Uh Verizon did respond to that and back on December 9th, 2025, the council passed a
resolution authorizing a lease agreement with Verizon subject to a number of conditions. One of the conditions was the zoning process. Another condition was prior to signing the lease having a public information session. Uh so that's why we're here this evening. We hopefully can answer all of the
questions if not at least the majority of the questions. We do have our design professionals and engineers here tonight. So we have Steve Krug of Shure Design Group with us to talk about the site plan. We have Andy Peterson from DBM Engineering. He'll talk about the
radio frequency engineering and safety of the facility. And finally, we have our professional planner, Tim Kron from TK Design Associates. Um, so we'll have each one of them come up, make a brief presentation on their materials, and then, as you mentioned earlier, we'll listen to the comments, try and address
the comments of the council first, and then ultimately the public. So, thank you for your time. So, with that, uh, I'd like Mr. Kug to come up, and if we can put the site plan up on the, uh, board, he'll speak to that. Thank you. Thank you. We're not sworn. >> No, people are not sworn in. Go.
>> Good evening, Mayor Republic. Excuse me. >> Would you like a seat? >> No, no, no. Settle up here and I'll be sitting next to the meeting. >> So, your name very clearly for the record. We're not swearing you in because it's not a full night of testimony. This is not a planning board meeting. So, we are not I don't think
the board is looking for extensive site plan testimony. I think what the council wants to do is get to their questions about coverage options need, but I I do know the mayor wants to give adequate
time for full public understanding. >> Understood. >> My name is Steve Krug. I'm a partner at Shared Design Group. Do a lot of work for Verizon Wireless. I do have my uh civil bachelors of civil engineering and masters in civil engineing from NJIT. I
have my PE in New Jersey as well as 15 other states on the East Coast. And I've been working in the Mario industry since 2007. Shown up here is uh really just a basic layout of the the waterway there and the flood planes um which we have to stay
away from which we are. The compound is the darker rectangle right here. That's the location of the compound. The next side, please got some more or who has the computer. >> Perfect.
>> On the first detail there that shows the elevation of the monopole. The monopole is 125 ft high. Verizon's antennas, the center line, are at 120. The top of the antennas are at 123. There is also a lightning rod on the top of the tower
uh for for lightning strikes. Um there is space on the pole uh to be reserved for the municipality. On the right side here is the compound layout. The monopole is that double circle there in the middle.
It doesn't show on the screen. Um, >> yeah, that's smart. >> Thank you, Rob. Right to the south of that is Verizon's equipment platform as well as a backup generator. To the right of that monopole is the uh
utility H frame right there that houses the electric meters and taco box. And right to the north of that H frame is spots for equipment cabinets for municipality for their equipment um if they choose to go on this pole. The larger tri or rectangles to the north
are collocation spots for additional carriers which is also shown in the transparent antennas on the elevation to the left as shown in the previous slide. This is in the southeastern corner of the lot.
um right towards the end of the parking stalls as you come into the lot. >> Thank you, Steve. >> You're welcome. >> And just to clarify a couple a couple points that I think were important. The um the RFP called for a 150 ft tower
allowed the winner of the RFP, in this case Verizon, to build a shorter tower. We've been able to confirm that we can use a shorter tower and that's why the 125 ft tower is proposed. The RFP also called for making space available for colllocators which is why we've shown
the space for the other carriers to avoid a proliferation of towers and to encourage collocation but also to support municipal service antennas and again the tower and the compound are designed for both. So just to confirm at 125 you start with let's just say
Verizon correct 10 ft would be maybe AT&T 10 ft from there would >> actually down >> so one so 125 is the top of the pole Verizon's the middle of their antennas is 120 >> okay >> then arguably AT&T T-Mobile
>> 10 ft down from each of there so 120 130 uh 120 >> 110 >> 110 100 and there's even a space >> and that's and you're comfortable that that's enough to clear the cover and also allow I don't know if we're you if the OEM is talking about a whip antenna or some some version of which I assume
would be under that that's going to be still high enough to clear and be able to be serviceable. >> Yeah, we'd have to work out with OEM on exactly what they want but we would design the the pole the foundation the strength of the pole to support whatever they would need. >> Okay I think
if I may I'm sorry the plan was generally for you to finish then ask questions. I thought >> that's fine >> if that was if they are sticking with the plan. >> Um and again the idea is that the public
gets educated and fully understands that's the priority of the governing body. So why don't we move >> I guess Andy is coming >> without agree >> this being a planning board meeting. What's going on? Why do you need it? What are the coverage numbers? Why don't
we have good service now? What's necessary to get good service? I think that's what everybody in the room wants to hear. I I don't think they care a wit about the engineering. >> And without further ado, Andy Peterson from DBM Engineering. >> Looks like the right guy. All right.
>> This's a PowerPoint on there. >> Just put it. There's no >> there's just one power on there. >> Um while that's being sorted, I'll just a brief intro. Andrew Peterson. Um my firm is DBM Engineering was hired by uh
Verizon to analyze the facility here. Um um from two aspects. uh the first being the the need for the site, the design. Um and then from the uh perspective of electromagnetic emissions compliance um so I've got some uh reports and things
of that nature that address both of those. Um I guess first the um the need for the facility. I probably don't have to tell uh too many folks in this room that there is a serious issue with wireless service, specifically with Verizon wireless service um in the
eastern portion of the burrow. Um there is a lowlying area there um that uh mainly due the due to the terrain and the location of the existing sites. Um that that's what's causing the issue there. The existing sites that surround
that area are having a hard time seeing into that area. if you will, due to the uh terrain features. Um and um you know, it's it's kind of a bowl there. Um and the sites aren't all that close and they're not all that tall
that surround it. So, they're having a hard time seeing into that. So, what we're what we're looking at here um is uh some propagation modeling. Um so, first and foremost, this is a map. Uh we can see uh the dark uh black municipal
boundaries. um with the burrow there on the western or left side of the map. Um and the uh other typical map features on there, roadways, roadways, waterways, etc. Um and then we have some Verizon Wireless specific information on there.
Those include uh the Verizon Wireless existing sites that are on the air serving customers today. They are indicated with the black target icons. Um and then the existing in this case mid-band coverage is what's being
illustrated here. So that's um the Verizon wireless band where they have a a decent amount well the majority of their of their wireless spectrum is in the mid-band between their PCS band their uh which is 2100 um AWS band which
is 1700 paired with 2100 um and uh their um Cband which is in the 3500 uh 3700. Yeah, the these are just the frequency bands that that Verizon uses. So the point is uh they have the majority of their spectrum in that mid-band. So they
need this coverage um to be adequate in order to serve their subscribers. Um if we if we look at some other views, we'll show we'll show the lower band and some of the other bands that that do look a little bit better. Um but this um this
is the view of the midband again with the uh proposed facility but this was run with the antennas at the original height of 145 ft. The bid was for 150 ft tower. Um and you can see that this fills in that gap nicely. What we did
then if if we uh flip to the next slide is take a look at it at at 120 foot. So, we always want to build the the uh most modest site that still addresses our needs. We don't want to overbuild a
site. Um we don't want to cause overly redundant coverage. There's a whole bunch of reasons um that that we we want to find that Goldilocks height that is just right. It serves our needs without overbuilding. And that's in this case the 120 foot center line height which
necessitates the 125 ft tower. And that's what we're illustrating here. So, the um the areas of green, strong inbuilding coverage. Um the areas of yellow um having a hard time seeing the
uh the numbers there. Um but the goal here is is to have that green or or lighter green coverage um to to serve folks in building because that's where Verizon subscribers and subscribers to all wireless service. They expect to have strong service regardless of their
surroundings. Um, so you can see at the 120 foot center line, we're filling a lot of that previously unreliable area with strong inbuilding coverage. And now if we take a look at the next couple slides, um, so this is the low band
coverage existing. Um, this is the uh band of the radio frequency spectrum. Um, where Verizon Wireless also broadcasts 700 MHz, 850 MHz. It propagates a little bit more favorably. So you can see there's more green
existing. There is still that area of red and yellow um that is in mainly in the eastern portion of the burrow there where there is unreliable inbuilding and even unreliable in vehicle coverage. Um and that's even at the more robust low
band uh portion of the portion of their spectrum. So even at that low band we still have uh issues in the eastern portion of the burrow. As I mentioned, to have that adequate service, we need both the high band and I'm sorry, the midband and the low band functioning
properly. Um, and in this case, we don't really even have the low band. Um, so if again we we looked at the low band at 145 ft, um, we could probably skip to the next slide. And there it is at 120 ft. And that really fills in nicely. So,
um, that's really it as far as the upfront presentation on the design. we do have an issue here. This facility will address it. Um the other aspect of the facility that I was asked to take a look at was the uh compliance with
electromagnetic exposure. Um I did uh complete an analysis of the facility. I modeled the facility with the proposed antenna configuration using a industry standard modeling tool and um
with uh a whole host of upper limit assumptions uh the worst case electromagnetic exposure at areas of ground level access would be 0.12% of the applicable FCC standard. Um so
almost a thousandth of of that uh applicable standard. So the facility will be compliant um be compliant by a wide margin. There's really no um cause for any concern from from an electromagnetic exposure perspective.
>> Thank you Andy. And then next we have Tim Krunk uh just to talk about some of the uh planning issues related to the facility. Tim, we'll keep it brief at the outset based on your comments. Thank you. PDF >> that's it.
>> Uh Timothy Kron, a New Jersey licensed professional planner, AICP certified planner. Uh the uh aerial photo that's on the uh on the monitor is a Google Earth image from July 13, 2022. Uh the subject
property is outlined in a turquoise color. Uh the Stony Brook Swim Club is a property owned by the Bureau of Hillsdale and uh has a lot area of 11.36 acres. Uh and also as you see the
outline of the property itself of the turquoise also along Cedar Lane is the dividing line between Hillsdale and Rivervale uh just to the to the right the other side of uh Cedar. Uh the
subject property is located in the RECC zone. The REC zone is a zone that does permit single family parks, playgrounds and recreations. So the uh subject swim club property and swim club use on this property is a conforming permitted use.
Uh this uh a lot is also controlled by the burough's wireless telecommunications ordinance. Uh that ordinance does permit wireless telecommunications facilities on property leased owned or controlled by the municipality. So the proposed installation uh by Verizon Wireless in
response to the RFP would be a permitted use at this location. Uh the original as was testified by the radio frequency engineer. The original uh RFP was for a tower height of 150 ft. Uh the underlying uh wireless telecommunications ordinance does permit
the height to a 130 ft. Uh and as the radio frequency engineer testified to uh Verizon Wireless can meet their coverage deficiencies in this area with a um centerline rad center of 120 ft. Uh so with the rad center at 120 that would
bring the top of the monopole to 125 ft and as the engineer testified to there is a 4ft lightning rod proposed that would be a total height of 129 ft thus below the 130 permitted uh by ordinance. Uh the tower uh also in accordance with
the ordinance has been designed for collocation. There is space for three additional future colllocators as well as the municipal services that were required in the RFP. Uh the compound at the base of the tower is 20 ft by 85 ft.
uh that has the room for uh both the Verizon wireless equipment which would be in a 15 foot by 17 foot 6 inch lease area and there would still be space for the tower uh the uh space for the municipal uh equipment and for the
future three uh colllocators. So I do believe that this is a installation that would meet the spirit and intent of your wireless telecommunications ordinance. >> Thank you. Would you like to take questions from the
council um individually of the >> Yeah, we're design professionals. >> We'll ask the questions and the relevant people can >> That's great. >> As you get to be the master of ceremonies directly who gets to come up and ask. >> Perfect. >> Um >> I'm going to start off with the first question. Um you're talking about 120
feet here. Um, and obviously I assume that you're top of the top of the of the wire of the tower at 110 and 100. So you see, let's say T-Mobile is below you at 110. Are they going to be above the tree line and will their service also will
people who have that as a as a as a provider experience the same services or >> Sure. We we can't speak to them individually because we don't know their network. We don't know how high they are. But but but Andy can speak to generalities. I think to answer your question, Andy.
>> Sure. >> Yeah. As Rob said, I I can't speak for AT&T or T-Mobile as to what would work for them or what won't, but in my experience, what happens is they'll take a look at the existing tower that's in the air that there is a colllocatable
facility and then they'll they'll do an analysis of the available height and if it meets a high percentage of their objectives for that site and fixes a high percentage of their problems, then then then let me let me then modify my question. >> Sure. Um, T-Mobile decided that they're
the ones that are going to build it at 120. AT&T comes at 110. You must have looked at this at some capacity. At 100 feet, is that going to do it? Would would you still be interested in colllocating at 100? >> 100 feet would be better than what we
have today. Does it mean all of our >> I'm trying to avoid the idea of doing multiple towers because we had to do that downtown because that one was too small. One of the things that that's good planning would be that
we could build the foundation to support let's say a 10-ft extension on the tower. So if you ever were stuck in that position where someone said they need a new tower because they won't accept let's say the 100 foot level, you could make them prove that out. We could design and build the tower that could
easily be extended by a few feet to allow them to go up a few feet, be able to handle that. >> That would be through the planning board. You'd have to get that through there now. So you in theory it says 129 with the lightning rod, but you could be 10 ft higher if >> that situation arose.
>> Yeah. And the burrow would have to approve that. >> Okay. Just that's it. Let's let's start. Who's got who's got a question here? That was my first one, but I'm sure that there are plenty of questions here. Start at the end. >> Sure. Council. >> So thank you for coming. Uh we had a we commissioned an independent study I'm
sure you're aware and uh in that study the experts stated that Verizon shares the same surrounding macro tires towers in the area as AT&T and T-Mobile. >> Chris put on your microphone. >> Thanks guys. Um is it uh is it
reasonable to assume the coverage gaps are identical for the three providers? And I asked this because we had a town uh hall meeting in recent in in back in January where we were looking at uh maps and some of the maps seem to suggest that the coverage for AT&T and T-Mobile
were uh a bit more favorable. So, we're kind of trying to understand um if the the coverage, the lack of coverage that we're seeing um and many of the residents are experiencing is uh something that all the providers are are
doing to and if we saw if we compare these maps, is that valid? >> Yeah, they'll they'll be close there'll be differences because on each tower there's a carrier that's on top and there's a carrier that's on the bottom. on each tower. Each carrier has slightly different frequency bands, although
they're very similar. I think as Andy pointed out, the biggest problem providing service from this area where you have towers and that area is that is that topography, right? >> Okay. So, I think when you look at all the maps, you'll see there's a bowl and that there's a problem in the bowl and
the gap will be similar, but it won't be exact. >> Thank you. go down the the new tower that is up or well it's definitely up. I don't know if it's working in Riverville. Are you familiar with that?
>> Yes. And Verizon did model that. That's on the map. Andy did take a look at that and that does not cover this area. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> All right. Um I'm good for now. >> Um you said that the square footage of the base was 20 by 85.
>> I thought it was 20. I thought it was, if you give me a moment, I thought it was 20 x 65, but let me just double check >> 20 by 65. >> 20 x 65. >> So that's roughly 1,800 square feetish. >> 20 by 65 uh would be 1300 square feet.
>> So I'm just curious as to how this going to look parking lot. How many parking spots would it actually >> I think it's about five or six. >> Okay. And would you >> seven in total? >> Would you require And you had referenced the backup before. Is that um would that
be like um natural gas or diesel? Um and would you need ballards around the uh configuration to protect it? >> Yes. >> So is that included in the square footage that >> Yes, it is. >> So the So just take a step back. >> Yeah. >> I believe the RFP was for 2500 square
feet. >> Yeah. Well, we've shown it's about 1,300 square feet, which includes Verizon, includes space for the municipal services, which we added to the plan, and it includes space for three other carriers. And that still comes in at
about 1,300 square feet. >> And yes, there is a backup generator for Verizon. >> And is it diesel or natural gas? >> Natural gas is available. They usually go with natural gas. >> Natural gas. Okay. And and uh another question is how did Verizon actually end up at the pool?
>> So through the RFP process. >> Yeah, >> that there was originally um some inquiries over at the high school, but they were not interested. Also looked at the back part of the property which was I believe encumbered uh particularly with green acres uh and owned by the
county is my understanding. And then ultimately there was the RFP for this particular propert. >> Yeah. I'm just curious if you evaluated other sites or locations to determine if this was the best location. Um, you know, you you mentioned the high school behind the high school, Sapenza Gardens. There's some county property back there. There's tennis courts.
>> Yeah, it's our understanding the county property in the back is encumbered with green acres, >> but we don't know that. Yes, we do. It's property, which is which is recreational open space inventory. It's on the county registry and it's untouchable. It actually they had to cut a deal long
before any of us were here to get the tennis courts there >> because that's actually part of the county property. >> Yeah. And I believe that's I think it's lot 28 and possibly 29 as well. >> Right. And and did did you uh evaluate small cells to identify the and identify
the the coverage gaps that we have? Right. Yes. >> But are small cells even an option? I'm familiar with small cells in other towns like CO Park and um I know Freen Lakes maybe doing a small cell network. Um and with 5G rolling out 5G rolling out in
the future um and you can still see there's some coverage issues with the macro tower uh small cells would provide you the opportunity to actually pinpoint the your needs and and and address them. Right. So I was just curious if Verizon had any plans of doing small cells later
on here in Hillsdale. >> Sure. So we did look at it as an alternative to this. We don't believe it's feasible. We think the macro cell site is the best option. We believe it's the least intrusive. We also believe it works best from a radio frequency standpoint. I'll have uh Andy come up
and talk about that in one moment. >> Um you know, in general, small cells are a tool. They work well in certain circumstances, particularly when you need extra capacity, not so much when you need wide area of coverage. Um, small cells, it's a term essentially.
It's a smaller cell tower. You could either go on an existing pole. >> If the existing pole is encumbered with uh risers or primary power or transformers, you can't use the pole. If the pole's below the tree line, it covers a very small area. Technically,
under the federal definition of a small cell, you're talking about a 50 foot tower. So, we we had Andy look at it from somewhere in the middle somewhere. I believe Andy will talk about it about 37 ft in height. But this would basically be new poles because the existing poles in certain neighborhoods
aren't there. And in other neighborhoods, they're not available because of all the existing encumbrances on that. And we'll have Tim show you some photographs of that. But that would be putting these new polls directly in front of residences and in front of residential neighborhoods throughout the entire area. But let's have let's have
Andy come up. He'll talk about what he looked at. How many small cells just from a pure engineering standpoint, not from a not from a um environmental standpoint, not from a construction standpoint, just purely engineering in a vacuum what it would take, how many and approximately.
>> And these small cells sit in this public right of way. I'm sorry. >> Yes, they would be in the right of way. And there's there's federal laws that, you know, limit the amount of um revenue that the uh manager of the rightway can collect, $270 a year. Uh they have to be
they have to be approved within uh 60 or 90 days depending on the design. Um but it depends on the design and it depends on where they could go and it's not as easy as it may sound on paper, but that's why we have Andy. He looked at it. We'll have to speak to that.
>> I'm Andy, before you go, Sure. give me the distinction between a small cell and then what I've seen are these units on telephone poles are about 500 yards apart. Is that is that a small cell or is that something different? So there's
what's called an ODAS which is an outdoor distributed antenna system which not always but can be a common host system where um multiple carriers can utilize this ODAS system and sometimes but not always it's owned and operated
by um another third party and they lease space and and resources on on a string of them. Sometimes that may be what we're talking about. Um but the the wireless providers have started to veer away from those and more towards the
small cell um for for a number of reasons mainly uh technical and and uh um they're just more advantageous from from a design perspective. >> Totally. I was down in Jersey Shore and walking boardwalk and every 500 feet
were these units and said Verizon cell. Um th those are old >> those are mainly small cells and I've touched Yeah, I've touched a lot of those at the Jersey Shore over the years from a design and emissions perspective. >> Um depending on what town you're you're talking about, but >> so those are small cells and not
>> um there could there are still, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of ODAS out there still. So it would depend on exactly where you are, but at the Jersey Shore, the the vast majority are small cell at this point. >> Okay. >> Um so what we did here um was take a
look at if we can go to the prior slide. Yeah. So I I took a look at a small cell design here. Now again, we're looking at the low band. So this if we're going to compare apples to apples, this would be compared to kind of the second set of
slides where we had um some really basically all areas of green robust coverage almost all areas um being filled by the site at 120 ft. Um so what I did was um in a vacuum as was
mentioned plucked pluck dots on the map that were reasonably within the right away um and uh place small cells most advantageously to maximize coverage. Um, and I started
with uh a site near the school thinking that that's probably one of the most important areas to to have that coverage and kind of worked my way from there. So, um if anything, this would give a um
uh a uh a lower number of small cells needed to meet the design because I've placed them exactly where I wanted to from a design perspective with no regard for um right fiber availability, pole availability, exact, you know, what side
of the rightway, all all the other factors o of of the real world that go into this um and doing that um it seemed that we could get the coverage done with 16 small cells. Now that does not
account for the ongoing um the ongoing uh development in the southern portion of the golf course where there's um it looks like that there's uh some >> that's Riverbell's problem, >> right? Well, that this yeah I I do
understand that but it's radio frequency does not observe burough boundaries and other municipal boundaries. >> Unless they want to pay us for it, >> they have to my job was to determine how many small cells it would take to do what this site is doing. >> Right.
>> So just to give a just to give a full understanding of of what I did. >> So 60 would cover. So it it would really So if we do account for and that wasn't in the propagation modeling tool just yet that I was using but if we were going to
account for that it would probably take three or four more um and then the realities of placing these we're looking at probably along al along the lines of a 25 small cell solution I if we were to apply some reality to this design but on
paper with what I have um you know it's more maybe it's 1920 if we look at if we look at um uh matching what we're able to do with the one site. >> Right. Right. And that's placing them exactly where I want to again. So that's
that kind of paints a rosy picture of the number of uh of sites that would be needed. >> And if I just ask Tim to come up, he he took some photographs of some of the general load locations. And just to give you a sense of it,
I'm so sorry. >> Okay. What I did was um as after Andy completed his uh design with 16 locations, uh I went out and took photos of the 16 poles that he had planned to use. I have just a few photos here uh to
show you, you know, the the types of locations where these poles, you know, are located in proximity to the uh um the the surrounding uses. Um first uh one and two here. This is a view from um
I actually the view is from the the location the closest house to where the photo was taken, not necessarily what's in the photo because the wood poles, you know, vary on on where they're located and sometimes there's not, you know, structure. So, I just was uh standing at
301 Raymond Street and uh in here you can see the wood pole that Andy proposed to use for his uh design. And then on number two here, this is the same pole coming from the other way standing at 308 looking at that poll that would be
available there. >> So, these are these are existing poles that are currently there that goes. >> Yes, there's existing polls there. Um most of these you'll see there um these holes that would not be able to be used
due to uh utility configuration on the existing pole as it was mentioned with transformers, risers, uh primary power all in all these you'd be putting up >> most of these would it would have to be another >> you put up another pole adjacent to that about that
>> and what Andy much taller actually what what Andy modeled was up to 41 ft. >> Okay. And how tall are these towers? These are about 35 to 30. >> So you're going six or seven feet, whatever higher. >> Yep. Number three, this is a view from uh 528 Green Lane on the left hand side,
number three. And on the right side, number four, this is from number 37 Everdale looking uh at the pole here. And this one is one that would have to be replaced as well. So that's why Andy was saying the trying
to based upon existing poll doesn't always work out. And that was his best case scenario was 16 if he could get them exactly where he wanted them. Um number five on the left hand side here, this is a view from number 10 Highland Avenue. Uh looking towards uh pole here
and then on number six on the right hand side, this is a view from 181 uh Fairmont. We're across from the uh the high school. Were you aware of the um the arrangement that this council had
approved about three years ago with Munisite to give them the rights to inter to uh interface with any of the uh cell phone providers? They committed to us that they have the
right they they could build a tower half the size of that that size metal. All three Verizon, AT&T, and uh T-Mobile could be in that tower. You wouldn't need 16 of them. I think it was far less
in that particular area that you're you've mentioned. Um and it would also accommodate our emergency services uh whatever they wanted to do. Um were you aware of that when I >> I'm we're aware of MUN site in general. >> Okay.
>> I I can tell you we we stand by this design that half the number of nodes at half the height to support all the carriers and emergency services. Quite frankly we don't find to be a credible argument. Um, >> well, I find it interesting because down at the convention, you know, with the
League of Municipalities, there were a number of municipalities who had gone that route at the shore, um, and swore up and down that it was a good thing. Yeah, that's interesting because I'm also aware of down at the shore a lot of litigations where municipalities where carriers have offered to build these
types of facilities and and you know the county and various burrows and cities have pushed back against it because of the number of nodes because of the proximity to houses uh and things like that and and that's just a matter of public record and those are cases in federal court. The reality is this,
everything is a tool. Every every design has its has its limitations. Um, any small cell does not have, you know, long-term power backup. So, if there's an emergency, the power goes out, that system goes out. That's just a
fact. Generally, municipal service antennas are not included. Generally, if you're going to do a real small cell with full capacity, it's going to be one node per carrier. Yes, there are instances particularly in ODAS where they share antennas but the amount of
bandwidth and and usage is limited. Um >> so we'd be talking about potential if there are three carriers you could be doing three different >> right right now there yeah right now there are three generally operating carriers there's Verizon there's AT&T and T-Mobile >> with all the you know with all the
convergence Dish is selling its licenses to AT&T and another entity and and they're stepping out of the business that doesn't mean there's not going to be another carrier traditionally there's been four right now there's three >> Can you clarify a point about the the
the backup. So in a major storm like say 16 or to 20 small cell towers that we put up like we go back to uh lack of service if those got knocked out >> if they did not have backup and as we're proposing here a generator which is long-term backup.
>> Do they have battery backup? >> Battery backup is usually very limited. A few hours. Yeah. >> How long c can I just because again the burrow we might be a little in the weeds. It seems like maybe we're losing the audience a little bit because we are in
the weeds. I think I heard someone say that it's either 20 to 22 small cells or the tower. Those each have pros, they each have cons. The burrow has experts who
can examine those pros and cons. And ultimately, it's a governing body decision, right? So, the governing body would weigh, okay, you only get three hours of backup as opposed to a full-on generator backup. You get in front of
some people's houses, but you don't have the 125 ft. But was that testimony accurate that it is either because there's two questions I don't feel have been asked and I I don't care either way but I think they should be
answered. Number one was did I hear it said that it's 20 to 22 to 25 small cells or the tariffs to get the level of service that's >> Well, let me let me just let me just answer your question. I want to be very specific. >> I think he's number one. I don't believe
he so he's providing information. So, as you mentioned earlier, it's not a not a hearing. We haven't sworn him in. So, the testimony, but he's provided the map to show in a best case scenario, 16 small cells. He thinks it's more like 22 when you start adding them. And and that
is and that is only Verizon looked at this issue as an alternative. Verizon is not committed to building any type of small cell system. Just want to make that clear. >> Okay. >> But yes, your other premise is correct. Okay. So, it's 20 to 22 versus the tower. Council has consultants. Council
can discuss it. Consultants council can make a decision. Correct. Those are your options. >> Mark, I think we got to take that one step further. >> And there might be more. But >> Mark, please let's let's question. >> What you're saying though is hypothetical. Okay. Perfect world. 16 to
20 maybe 20 plus of these small. The public could live with it. The mayor and council could live with it. The pros and the cons of that scenario. You're still saying that Verizon wouldn't do it if that's what the mayor council want voted >> right right now they have they have no small cell plan for this area they
responded to the RFP with the tower that's what they proposed right now they have no they they did this as let's look at alternatives we know the issue of small cells has come up from a designon perspective what would it look like
that's what it looks like and that and that's just where we are at this information stage >> but it's the biggest driver then is it cost I mean are you saying then from Verizon's perspective is it the cost of 20 small cell >> well ultimately it's it's it's doing the right it's using the right tool and in this geographic area they believe the
right tool is the macro site for all of the reasons that we mentioned the the ubiquitous coverage at that height the back you know the backup the secure system you know when you place something on a pole you know polls get hit by cars poles
you know, come and go in storms. Um, so >> they believe the tower in this location is the right tool for this need. >> I have a question. So, um, let's just say we went with the the macro tower, right? Um, and for this independent
study that we had done, there are low signal areas left at Beachwood Park. Um, there probably are some near Centennial. And let's just say the service is still not great there. Would you what would be the next thing? Would you recommend then the DAS the DOS is that ODAS or like I
mean are or are we saying that this 125 structure is going to cover those low areas? >> So the 125 foot structure is going to cover just as just as Andy showed it. >> Right. >> I haven't seen your experts report. So I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage. I haven't seen it. Um we're happy to
listen to it and if and if there are questions after that we're we're happy to try and address them or come back and address them after we've had a time you know to >> wonder what would happen what's the plan if there's a certain area >> so so let's you ask a great question okay and here's the reason why your
question is so great because usage of wireless is not static okay 15 years ago when this thing came about usage shot up there needed to be more facilities, you need two things for reliable
service. You need adequate signal, which is what we've shown there, and adequate capacity. As Andy mentioned, the midband carries more capacity. They have more they have more usage on that band. The low band propagates further, okay? And it's all a mix and they use these
different frequency bands to provide the necessary service. If you're down on the boardwalk and there's a marathon, there's going to be more need. And that's where those those small cells and those dash facilities help fill in the
capacity. When you're trying to cover a large geographic area, you generally want a macro tower >> and that capacity could change. So when Andy was talking about the development next door, even though it's not in your jurisdiction, if there's service in that area and the capacity is being taken up
by a new development there, there's going to be less service in your municipality. So there might be a need. So there might always be a need to fill something >> to fill spaces. It's like trying to light a room, right? You put in the high overhead lights, you might need some task lighting. Now the gentleman said
earlier when in designing or estimating how many small cells would be needed he did that at the lower frequency band. Is that correct? That that's correct. And 41 ft in height. >> Okay. And is there a reason why you didn't look at the middle frequency
band? >> This this this provided the fewer number of nodes. >> Lower frequency. >> Lower frequency. Fewer nodes. If he looked at the higher frequency, it would be a smaller coverage area and more nodes. >> Okay. So you wanted to you wanted to
keep the number of >> he was trying to show you best case scenario >> with the nodes as a fair comparison. >> Yeah. Because those lower frequency bands have a have a larger coverage area and they're better for the hilly and the tree areas. Is that right?
>> They Yes. But they they carry less capacity. But with the nodes, that's why he looked at it because they're smaller coverage areas. >> Yeah. >> But that's correct. You you you're on you you've got it understood correctly. >> Yeah. I had a question about cost revenue versus revenue. Right. On the
macro tower, the revenue generated could be upwards of $100,000 to get all three carriers and how much is the cost of arises to actually put one of these up? So, so the way I understand the RFP, and I haven't studied it top to bottom, >> my understanding of the RFP is that the
municipality receives a $5,000 payment under the lease and they receive $48,00012 a year uh with a 2.75 escalator from Verizon. And then the municipality gets the collocation revenue, which I don't
know what that is because I don't I don't know what the bid would be on those colllocators. But we're not looking at it from from a financial standpoint. Verizon's looking at this as a service standpoint. >> Please >> from a colllocator standpoint, the
bureau wouldn't share in that revenue. >> The burrow would be ridiculous. >> And in and an important point, this is just under federal law. The presumptive amount for whomever owns the right ofway doesn't own it but manages the right ofway. So if it's a burrow rightway, the
presumptive amount would be $270 per year per pole >> on the on the small cell. >> On the small cells >> and and what does it cost to actually put one of those up versus a macro tower? >> I I I don't have those general numbers. >> Thousands versus tens of thousands. >> I I mean, you know, the macro tower is
hundreds of thousands. I don't know the price because it depends on the design, the location, the fiber, the run of the fiber, is it one carrier, is it multiple carriers? >> I just don't have that number. >> Okay. >> Something I wasn't clear about on if
with the monopole at the pool as you enter the pool on the the driveway, where will the where will that tower be located? >> Offseer, you mean? >> Oh, yes, exactly. Would it be to the right? Correct. To the north.
>> Yes. >> To the north. >> Yes. >> But right there. >> 50 feet from the repairarian zone. >> But not all the way to the north. Closer to the >> No, because that's in the flood plane. >> Gotcha. Right. Um there have been there's been some concern that we heard at the at the town
hall meeting that the people who would either come to the pool or live in the immediate vicinity wouldn't benefit from a tower because the signal wouldn't propagate in a downward manner. Can somebody speak to the people that live close by and how
they would benefit versus not benefit or and and the and the people who utilize the pool? >> Sure. Yeah. So, if you think of it like a lighthouse, the the uh light energy from a lighthouse is is out shining toward the horizon. Um but if you stand at the base of the lighthouse, there's
enough light to kind of see your shoes down there. Um the uh radio frequency energy from these panel style antennas is directional. It's largely pointed toward the horizon with some down tilt and then there's a there's a a a beam pattern that's associated with the antennas. And so there is enough spread
of energy where you're at the base of the tower, you will have you'll have excellent service just through proximity. >> If we had 300 people at the pool on a given Tuesday in the summer, um they would benefit Oh, yes. From it. >> Yeah. They they would have excellent service.
>> Okay. >> Yep. >> Next question. So, uh, just I want to close the loop on location. So, I believe you had said that when you were considering locations that the high school
declined to have have a monopole put up at their facility. >> That was my understanding. There was discussion about putting a flag pole design at the front of the at the front of the property and it was declined. That was my understanding. >> Okay. Was that recent be able to confirm that
>> superintendent? They Yeah, they were not sure. We we actually met with the BA and I were at the high school last week. I think it was Thursday. Uh and we met with the principal and the superintendent for the high school for the high schools for the regional high
schools. Uh and they just said that this was not an option for them based upon where they could do it. What was a Rossi property? It was not going to work for them. >> Okay. And when we say where they could do it, I know you brought up the example
before about the tennis court in the back and the loopholes that they had to jump through. Are we saying that it's impossible to go through those same loopholes for something in that area or it's just going to be something that would extend this project? >> Well, it could take years to do with no certainty that it would occur
>> because we could the county could ultimately say >> it. >> This is green acres. we're not going to touch it, you know, and and whether they if they told it to us tomorrow is different than if they told it to us two years from now into a process and we're
subject to whatever they would say. >> And in general, generally the the process would be a diversion process and as part of that analysis is is there, you know, is it necessary? Is there another alternative as part of that as part of that diversion process? >> And if there's a viable alternative,
then they're going to >> Okay. And that's through the D. >> Is it fair to say that Verizon Verizon's appetite is only for the the large cell and small cells you wouldn't be interested in? >> I think today that's a fair comment. Yes. And and I just want to correct
something. I before there was a question about battery backup, not on the small cells. Some carriers have it at the cell sites, but not on the small cells. >> Just want to make sure I was clear about that. >> Power goes out, small goes out. So it would be out instantaneous for however
long the the situation lasts. >> Correct. Correct. >> When you need it in an emergency, then it wouldn't be there. >> Correct. And that includes your emergency services as well. >> Our emergency services wouldn't have it then as well. But we but in theory, I think you said natural gas backup generator
>> or propane if natural gas is not there. >> We would have that service still working for however long >> until somebody came out either changed the propane or fixed it. >> Correct. just to finish the thought on the location if I if I can. Um, in the analysis that we had we had done, they
also referenced Centennial Field as a potential option. They said the ideal location was up by Deer Trail Road in Hillsdale, but for certain reasons they eliminated that. And then they spoke about Centennial Field as well, the high school and the swim club as well as Melebrook School being I think that was
the I think Mebrook was identified as the number one commercial or >> that's that's actually a different study. This was not the this So we we already know that he's already said that he has not reviewed that. >> Well, what my question is is I'm just explaining to you where we got the information. That's the question. Okay.
Is was Centennial Field considered as an option? >> Not not to my knowledge. Like I said, my knowledge is that the the school has a problem with service and I drove through there tonight and I dropped a call and
that's in my car. That's not inside the building. God forbid something happens. Um, >> can we please >> and the and the school was the original driver of hey there's a problem and there's a problem at a school which is a problem by any definition. Um, and it
didn't come through to fruition and then the RFP came out for this property which Verizon readily responded to and was awarded the RFP subject to the signing of the lease with the conditions that we're working through now. >> So is it something that Verizon would look at though?
>> I I mean we I mean I believe Centennial Field Green Acres part of it the back of it was >> well it's also a landfill so there are other issues there >> as well it's a landfill >> and just just just just for the record
that's Eric Fastnac he's he's outside active person with Fastcom consulting services >> Eric if you're going to speak if you come up to the the front Yeah, I told this last time >> and you do understand the problem with the greenacres is that >> if it's on the list,
>> you know what it is? Multiple conversations about talking to different parties. >> Sure. >> There's not one comprehensive study put in front of us that says this and why. This and why, right? That's what we have to ask. >> Yeah. I think look I think that I think we've tried to look with the small cells
and the maps that Andy showed you is where the gap is right and how this particular site fills that gap and how the small cells while theoretically from a technical standpoint perfect world could fill that gap but there there are technical limitations there are design
limitations of putting you know x number of small cells in front of homes and so forth and so on. So, of course, we're we're willing to look at everything, but we have looked at the number of things and Eric can just ch >> If I may, just before he does it, can I just inter this is my final question,
but so you might answer this. How customary is it from a location perspective when you look at this particular tower? It's in an active parking lot next to an active sidewalk, next to an active road. How customary is it to erect one of these towers in that type of a location? >> Anxiety Hillsdale. I mean, you can go
right outside and and and see the two towers that are in the vicinity of of Burough Hall and I think they're in somewhat similar geographic regions. I mean, this hundred parking lot at the fire department in Absolutely. and at the DPW at
>> Yep. So, it's you know, look, if we were if we were in Kansas and there were 100 acre lots or thousand acre lots and you could put in the back of a corn field, that's one situation. in a dense area like the burrow. Um, this is more customary
>> from your perspective. >> Particularly when particularly when the larger lots are are greenacres, >> did you want to? >> Yeah, fastcom consulting. I'm site act for Verizon Wireless. Uh, I'm the one that goes out, finds their sites, and looks around. Um, so based on my
research, Centennial Park is part of block 21101, lot one. Um, and that is on the Rossy list for Green Acres. >> So, I think that entire county property north of the high school is on. >> Yep. I believe that's all including lot
You have two properties on your list. It's lot 28 and lot one. And those are the ones that basically are continuous behind the high school back up to the park all the way up. I think it's St. Mary's. >> It's all the way through there. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yep.
>> Thank you. Maybe we can hear from Lup and >> Okay. Yeah. So, all right. So, we we have another study. >> Okay. >> If you could give us a little time here um to talk about the Pier 4 study that we had put forward. So, we've kind of all been discussing it. We put it up on the website for people to get a look at.
Um if you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us sort of what you did and how we, you know, what your findings were. >> Certainly. Uh my name is Glenn Pearson. I've been uh in wireless about 40 years as of January. Um I've designed for for
all the different carriers uh and I've been familiar with with propagation all the frequency bands all the different types of cells designed small cells designed odas design macro cells uh and all the bit and all the course I've
represented municipalities on uh on several occasions as well and what I did was was first was try to to verify gaps in coverage. So, uh, I worked with some of the the, uh, Verizon since Verizon in
the report. Verizon is the active, uh, cellular provider in this particular situation. So, uh, they've got the studies, they've done the thing, they they've got information that is readily available and so, uh, they were cooperative and I was able to get some
of the information which some of it they presented, um, uh, that they also provided me. I they also provided uh drive test data. So a vehicle in the car taking measurements driving the streets. So used that to verify the propagation
models. I also drove the whole whole area. Uh I had my phone in test mode, collected signals as well, make sure that everything was making relatively sense. And uh I saw, you know, a few little uh um inconsistencies,
but it was minor. uh and I noted that in my report where uh one propagation looked like it was a little uh a little optimistic and then the midband looked like it was a little pessimistic or yes so but it wasn't going to change the
story um so uh I looked at just with a clean slate not thinking about what is going on politically I'm looking at it from a radio frequency engineer not from a political standpoint point or a leasing
standpoint or anything like that and say if I need to solve this problem where would I want to be and I put in the report well you'd want to be up Ruckman and by the top of the hill and you could look down into the the ridges go run north south right so you've got the ridge you got down the high school you
got Ruckman ridge you come down into the golf course and etc so you need to be kind of on the on the spine to look in the different places in the valleys like uh Mr. Gioso had had talked about. So
um so I said okay best place would be X but it's residential and and it's the parkland etc. Um so it does it it is not viable I think from a from a a building some a structure standpoint.
Then I came down the hill and said a little bit okay you got this parking lot you got the board of ed building. Technically from a radio perspective, it's not a bad spot. Whether it works from any of the other uh considerations is a whole another
story and it's outside my purview. Uh but I'm looking at it and saying, okay, these adoptions. Then you you come down further and you have the pool and then you can also look as we talked about over to the high school, but then you got to get over Ruffman and down the other side to try to make things
continuous. Um so I verified that uh based on design criteria that I'm familiar with over the the generations and decades um that it's reasonable. I when I took uh the information they gave me. I just plotted the one color that is
their design criteria. So it's it's pretty clear where their design criteria stops and where it's lower than that. I find that to be a little more helpful when some people are looking at it rather than gradient colors because then it's >> it was either green or it was white. >> Yeah. So it's right. So
>> the white area was the dead area. >> It's Yeah. It's the lower areas. His turned kind of reddish. >> Uh Andy's showed reddish, but it it is able to show a little more clearly of where your low spots are and and and how big they
are, etc. So I tend to use the go no-go kind of uh presentation. I find it easier for people to to uh recognize and understand. Um the one thing uh that I was looking at and well listening to in
the conversation I wanted to just clarify is that you're saying macro site or 20 whether we call them small cells or something. The 20 is Verizon only. Mhm. >> So, you're looking at 60 70
>> to get all the providers in there >> to get all the providers. >> And my report, I said, uh, I like small cells. If you're going to put on a building, you're going to put on a structure, you have a little more space. You can put a battery cabinet there >> that gives you a thousand thousand.
>> It could. Yeah. Plus or minus could give you a th00and foot radius. uh because it it has a little more power than a an ODAS which we talked about which is fiber fed. Um, but you know, but if you're going to put it on a slim
pole and you're going to put it on across the street, etc., then you're not looking really at at at backup power. Um, and a lot of times that's considering power company says, "My guy needs to climb that pole." And when he climbs a
pole, that needs to be turned off. So when I hit the when I hit the disconnect switch, it needs to be off. >> Everybody loses, >> right? That needs to be off. So I can comment if he's on if it's on a telephone pole with with something else. If it's on a dedicated pole, that's
probably a different different story. But you're looking at size. I mean, if you're looking at a couple hours of battery backup, the radio cabinet could be 3 feet tall by by one by one or something or 18 by 18, but then you're
going to have a battery backup cabinets at least at that size um >> per and if there are three different providers, >> then you're going to have another pole, >> right, with the same configuration >> with the same boxes on it. So, just to give you an idea of of what that looks like. So what normally would go to is
you instead of having a bunch of poles with a bunch of you know you got a Verizon set of poles you got a T-Mobile set of poles you got AT&T set of poles you know then you're looking at a lot more poles than you think about and and that's why I said you know if you're looking at small cells put them on
buildings put them along Piermont do this you can fill stuff in uh if you want to penetrate the high school you're going to need more than one you're on one side of the high school you're not going to cover the other side and they use a lot of phones >> because it makes you and read the thick density of the walls to get >> right and then you're going to need
capacity. So, you're going to put a few of them around. You're going to put a couple around even in elementary schools, you know, uh so you're going to need a couple there. And you could you can fix Piermont in that particular area with a couple small cells on on you know
on one on the the hill hillside hillsdale house and one uh maybe you put it in a parking lot or by the board of ed building and then you put a couple around the high school you can you can fix that one section but then once you go into residential neighborhood to the north or to the south then you're in the
same problem again. And then what do you do? The only thing you have is right away and how much equipment and how many poles etc. So >> was that time >> three? >> Yes. So that's where normally you go with a neutral host system that somebody
else puts up and there are issues with that. Um you know because now everybody the wireless providers have to uh okay here's my signal. put it on your on your fiber and everything else and then you're subject to everything of
commercial power is subject to you know poles going down etc back up you know so I don't feel that that's a good solution if you have no coverage if you have a if you have low band coverage everywhere
and you need capacity maybe you put some of those up in in the high traffic areas and then if it goes down you still have service you're just not going to be doing 20 megabits per second data and you're not you may take two tries to get your phone call, but you're going to
have something. Um, but if it's a if it's a pure dash system or if it's small cell on on poles without battery backup, you're out of luck. >> So, we build this network and we get a
storm like we've had and we've got problems, >> right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. There was uh yeah there was a couple instances that I have first day knowledge of and storm came through and yeah they were out for 3 days because that's how long it took to get the power back and this wasn't Sandy this was 2017
>> and this was without a monopole so this was just all the small >> yeah yeah there was a neutral host system where multiple carriers were on telephone poles in a in a in a denser suburban area than than Hillsdale and
yeah the the storm came through in late 2016 2017 and I I get the data of the usage and they're they're not operational and some of them took days to get put back up whether it's the commercial power issue whether it's
fixing the fiber issue etc. The advantage of having, as you said, with a macro cell is it's a hardened device. You know, it's hardened. It's and uh you can technically run uh your connection back to the switch two different ways.
So, those poles go down. We've got something over here. I'm not sure the the policy on that for each different carrier. It varies, but it's possible. So, you can do things to make it more reliable. you know, not only just power,
but alternate uh ways of getting the the back wall back to the central switch. So, there's advantages to that. And the question is, you know, where does it fit or is there a hybrid kind of thing that
that makes some sense? It's it's a difficult it's a difficult situation. you know, you're going to have to compare um the difference apples and apples. I just want to make sure you're knowing you're looking at 60 plus
not >> even the council was talking about mun site. So, this would not this would not take that into account and saying that that's not workable. >> Well, that's the ODAS. >> Oh, okay. That's ODAS. >> That's no odas neutral host.
>> Okay. So Municite would build this and they would just and all the >> put that signal >> would send them given them the signal they would put it on fiber and ship it out and every poll that would put up would have been everybody's frequencies
>> would have or would it would have because that's what the league advised that's that was the whole reason why the league advised municipalities to pass legislation before a certain date to prevent the providers from saying I want to put small 5G G service in your town
and they would each do it individually. >> There's advantages to that. If you have control of it, you can see stats, you know what's going on. There's advantage, >> but it's a proliferation of polls in the neighborhood. >> But will these beauty polls sufficiently serve in your estimation? It seems like
if they're DAS, it doesn't seem like it's >> you can create signal. That's not the problem. You can create signal with with the dash nodes and you can create signal and you can provide covers to the whole area if you can find enough holes or put new ones up. You can create it with
small cells if you wanted to. Right? You can create the signal. The question is is the situation that you have to look at acceptable and is it reliable enough for what you want it for? >> Okay.
>> So each one has a level of reliability. Each one has a has a you know a structure type and a structure height associated with it and that's that's the difficult questions but and you can
create signal but is it any good and the ODAS each one has a lower power per wireless carrier as opposed to a small cell because you need all three of them on there. So if everybody all three carriers are putting out signal and they
all have to add up and and meet FCC requirements, they're all going to be lower, which means the small cell coverage is smaller. I'm sorry, the ODAS coverage is smaller per we call it a node. >> Yeah. >> So it's smaller per per each one.
>> So we need more of them to cover the same area, >> right? So, if you're looking at 20 small cells at, you know, 10 watts output, as just a throwing a number out, you're going to need uh they're going to be
closer together if you do an immunosite situation, but then you have reliability, backup power issues, and you're balancing all that. >> So, >> I didn't want to monopolize time. So, you want to we'll start at the end for people questions. We'll work our way
across. >> You can. So, I just want to correct me if I'm wrong if I'm not summarizing correctly, but a um macro poll you're saying locations ideally would be dear trails out because it's residential. So, Metal Brook School um
>> the parking lot right by the uh just south of the building maybe. >> Right. Right. Um you mentioned another location and then Stony Brook the third. >> Well, yeah. Then uh you then you're looking at high school or >> Right. um or or the Hillsdale House, but
I don't know if the Hillsdale House has enough property. The stream is right there. U there's a of a planner that looked at that and they may say, "Yeah, that's not going to work. There's no room, but not on the roof because the roof I showed a picture in my report. Roof doesn't clear the tree line, >> right?
>> So, we'd have to put up a tower anyway on that. It wouldn't wouldn't take the weight, I would assume. >> What's that? >> It wouldn't probably carry the weight >> of of a tower on the roof. Oh, >> no. You wouldn't put No, because it's it's maybe 60 feet. You're going to need
it's lower. It's almost 10 feet lower than >> So, you need 70 foot tower. >> Yeah. >> Of that. >> So, okay. >> And the other thing Oh, sorry. >> Yeah. I just I want to finish my question. So, um large poles aside, you're you're saying that small cells
are problematic as far as number could be up to 60. Um and also you know you can get a signal from all of them but but coverage is still an issue. >> No you can get coverage that's signal that's coverage.
>> The question is what's it up time? >> If the commercial power goes out >> right >> if some guy in a backhoe digs up a fiber if somebody hits a pole in the rain tree comes down. >> Okay. >> So small cell is much more susceptible
to other factors. Yes. So there's other factors that reduce the reliability. And then when you're looking at an ODAS system, usually that's a serial kind of situation or maybe sometimes it stars a little bit, but they're they're fed. One's fed and the next one's fed, the
next one's fed and in the fiber that they string around all the poles. So if a cut is happens in the middle, >> the old Christmas tree lights. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Then all the rest of them, they're all done. Okay. Thanks. Um just the one thing I wanted to clarify that I missed
over is uh uh Verizon proposed in their latest 120 foot of their center line and uh in my opinion I think the 100 foot level is not going to be very useful. I mean you see that they're almost making connection with their other sites with
120 and the other carriers. Maybe they're 10 feet up, maybe they're 10 feet lower on the surrounding sites. Um, but if if you're coming down to 100 ft, the trees are Tim, you know the trees around the pool. >> Yeah. So, I I think you're getting a
little borderline. You're down in a hole. Can you get over into the places? I I came up with 130. I thought was a a good number. 130, 120, 110 for the actual people. So, if you want to do 120
now, an extendable 10 ft, you know, however you want to do that, Realistically, everyone would have to know that in order to get coverage for all three providers, major providers, you're probably going to 130. >> That's my estimation. >> Your estimation? Okay. >> And and Glenn, your concept, your
assessment of the Riverville Tower when it when it is operational. >> It is operational for Verizon right now. >> It is. >> Yes. I when I drove past it, I got signal from it. >> And where did you get that signal from? Were you in our weak area? >> Well, I I went to the site.
>> You went to the site. That's where you got like Oh, yeah. And that that's too far. That's too far to help our residents in >> it's already shown on his maps as coverage coming down from that. >> So his maps and my map already shows
>> with that power municipal complex is already included in that. >> So there's nothing new. >> It doesn't help us. >> It's it's already there. It does help somewhat, but it's mostly helps a little bit on the northern section. Uh where
your boundary goes up to Prospect, the town boundary cuts over and does a little duke around Woodcliff Lake and stuff. So up an area it shoots up that hill >> top of the hill and then >> assume you go it's aligned with that
>> withale when when you're down on the valley to woodale you lose you lose also 18 you know everything is lost. >> Yes Glenn could I get clarification on something? Uh so when we were discussing what vendor to go with and we ultimately ended up hiring you. Uh, one of the
comments in some of the email conversations were going around was like I wouldn't recommend doing a study at this time of year and I just want to see uh if I could get the proper context. Is that because um because the service is would be better because there's less
covering and so you're not getting an accurate um description of the lack of coverage or is there other reasons? Radio waves are 10 in this frequency bands. We're looking at uh 800 700 actually 600 megahertz and up. T-Mobile
has 600 uh Verizon and AT&T have 700 megahertz. That's their low bands and then you get a little higher up frequency. Radio waves are affected by trees when the sap is in the tree. Think about it as a wall of water.
So in the summertime the the radio wave propagates uh into a point and starts hitting the trees and it gets attenuated and scattered and you wound up a lower signal where the users are in the winter time. All the leaves are off tree the
sap is down in the tree etc etc and it flies right through. So, so is it a safe assumption to say that like we did it this time of year and we still are showing that lack of service and that it could it's only worse during uh
>> the compensation models that are shown the ones in my report which are from Verizon and just and the one that Andy showed are all based on worst case summer situations. >> Gotcha. >> And that's what's put into there. the drive test data when when was first uh
asked of me to do this and they were saying we want to drive test data not computer models or everything else said great but doing a drive test right now isn't the most accurate way of doing it because you're not going to get the worst case situation uh I've done studies in this area in parameters in
particular and I know what the difference is between winter and summer because I've done drive tests the exact same route the exact same cell sites up on the air. I drew and one in winter, one in summer and I looked at them and compared them dot by dot and said,
"Okay, this is the difference." And and so there, you know, we can adjust for that somewhat and say, "Okay, well, if I have winter data, I'm going to do this to the data and skew it by X." And it should give us a a pretty good representation. It's not going to be
100% accurate, but he but uh my understanding the uh the council was looking for I want to see exactly what the the signal level is. Is there a gap? I was like and they wanted to do drive test data. Well, you can do it, but it's
if you're looking for absolute because that's what it sounded like. You're not going to get the absolute worst case results in winter time. >> Understood. Thank you. >> June June 30th is your best. 30 >> to see the worst of it. The best to see the worst. >> Yes.
>> Yeah. Glenn Glender, excuse me. Can can you just provide a quick sum of how you would achieve 5G in the future? >> 5G is here. >> But but even with the macro towers, >> yes. >> Okay. So, you don't need >> it's already transmitting 5G
today and has been for months or maybe years. >> Okay. And then with this one 130 foot tower that would address the coverage needs in that area. I think in in your paper you had referenced maybe a need for another one or >> well
I uh used the propagation that they provided for the estimate of what would be covered and it was actually you send me 120 right I used the 120 and I just again I just took the their design threshold and only showed that color. Mhm.
>> So there is signal beyond a design threshold, but you're not going to get into homes and etc. and uh you know and it's a a design threshold. It's been accepted in the in the industry. Uh so it's nothing special about Hillsdale.
It's it's pretty normal design threshold for getting reliable service. Um I don't where was I going with this? uh >> if you needed another tower. >> Uh I mean so based on the design threshold at low frequency band the the
uh propagation with computer generation which can do you know all the dots you know 10 meter or or 30 meter grids through the whole area. It can predict each each little grid point. It says you're going to be a little little weak over here probably because of trees at
Evergreen Park. It's all, you know, so the the tree loss there would be greater because it's all trees, not partial trees. And then as you go north, you go up the hill in Ruckman and then it it peaks out like 100 feet and then it drips down to 91 feet and then you get
up the prospect and so things are kind of getting in a mini bowl >> up there. So if you're down here in the hole by the brook and you're looking up to 100 feet and then it hits the rise, then you don't see it anymore. >> Yeah. So, it's going to be weak up in
there, my prospect, and then uh I was working with the uh with Mike and he he believed that Centennial Park may not be Green Acres. So, I said, "Okay, you know, you if it isn't and you need to fix something, that might be an option, but maybe it is. You know, I
>> we just heard that, >> right? So, >> it's on it's on the Roxy list. I've only done one green acres uh exemption in my entire life >> in 40 years >> and it took
>> at least two years and it was a 40 acre land swap involved for a posted stamp. >> I'd just like to check that green acres at Centennial. I know you have the the survey but >> I definitely I double check. >> My understanding was the northern side is is Rossi and that's county property.
the southern part of Hillsdale, but we can take that >> but I mean that's not that's not a one-sided solution. That is if you need to to finish up the northern part and really solidify it or or u get more
midband frequency in the area to get more capacity that's you know that would help >> supplemental right >> so right now you're looking at if uh you saw the the the plots that I had at the midfrequency again just pulled out their
design criteria and it's pretty spotty but some of them didn't quite match the drive test. It was a little pessimistic on the the ones in Riverbell. So, there will be a little bit bigger, but they're still pretty spotty. And so, when capacity becomes an issue, you know,
then uh you know, there may be some some enhancements that are needed there, whether they put small cells around a high school, bang, there's a whole big capacity just sucked right out of the out of the the macro cell. and you could put all your midband and even higher
frequencies in there and satisfy all the students. Um, so there there are things they can they can work with that. But the solution is, you know, you'll have low band frequency coverage pretty much everywhere because there
aren't any homes over by Evergreen Park or the or the new field. So, you're not looking into a building there, right? you're just looking at being on the street in the car. So, that may not be a big deal unless you have a lot of
people there because you have a lot of tournaments there or something like that. Um, and it's just a matter of, you know, that upper area towards prospect, you know, you you wind up filling a couple things in with a couple locations or a couple
small cells if you run up an issue maybe. But again, it's you guys have to do your balancing and >> thank you. >> It only to help you from a radio perspective. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Question. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the questions
that we thought was going to be answered in your in your analysis, but really wasn't was why there is a difference between T-Mobile, AT&T, and Verizon coverage in that area. Again, we please we have different data points we're
looking at. So we saw coverage maps that sub that I I don't want to use substantiate that represented that, right? Um and then we've also had the public came out and said, "Yeah, well AT&T, excuse me, AT&T T-Mobile works, but Verizon doesn't in this area." So
we're getting information and we're trying to put it all together, but we'd really like an official response on that as as to why there is a difference. Yeah, there they're each macro site is usually broken up into three sectors
and each uh the providers decides where they're going to point a sector which means they're going to have their signal focused in at 0 degrees say and 0 120 and 240 and those will be the main
beam of a particular antenna in each of those locations and in between the one sector to another sector, you're gonna have a lower signal because it the pattern of the antenna is more of an
oval kind of teardrop kind of situation. So it depends on how each carrier optimizes their network and says this is where I'm going to prior I'm going to prioritize from the Rivervale Higher Firehouse. I
want to prioritize to the to the west towards the high school and I'm going to put an antenna there. Another one says I'm going to prioritize getting north from that point. So each one can pick a direction that they want to orient their
particular sectors in order to optimize their network and each person can optimize their network a little differently. Uh so you'll have variations but you're not going to have oh this is completely dead. Uh you may have this is I can't make
call and this has one bar. You're going to have you know you're going to have >> slight variations. It's not going to be it's not going to be dramatic >> unless somebody unless somebody is coming up with something. I drove all the streets. I didn't find anything on polls. I didn't see anything that was that was obvious that anybody else had
put up anywhere. um that would indicate that someone other carrier put up a dash network or or did something. >> So other than do better >> other than the the four uh areas of macro sites that are surrounding the area. So and then again some are a
little higher on the pole, some are a little lower on the pole. Uh Verizon has is low on uh Westwood. 80 feet >> out of Westwood. I think they're 80 feet out of Westwood. Uh the other two
carriers are 110 and then I think AT&T is at the municipal building in Westwood and at like 120 130 something like that. So coming out of Westwood, Verizon has it disadvantage.
Uh but coming down from Rivervale, the new municipal building, I think Verizon's on top, right? And then T-Mobile T-Mobile has antennas on there as well right now and and a meter on there that says T-Mobile right on the power meter. So there I don't
know if they're operational, but I know they're installed anyway. Uh so there's going to be variations between each site somewhat. It'll be variations how each provider optimize their network, but somebody isn't going to be completely
dead and somebody's going to be smoking the five bars. So theoretically makes perfect sense, understand everything you're saying. If the mayor and council wish, how would we go about getting >> an official response as to why there is a difference?
>> Uh >> what type of study would that be? Who would the parties be? >> Well, there's two ways. You can contact each one of them and and say, you know, will you are you willing to share your your network data uh and you know, some propagation, maybe some drive test data
and see what it looks like. uh they may share it, they may not share it. Uh you can hire someone with the fancy really fancy expensive equipment and they can go out and collect data on every every provider. Um I mean if I just rent the
day rent the equipment I'm looking at 15 grand just to rent the equipment for like a weekend. So it's it's an expensive time consuming uh exercise. Some people have the equipment and they just, you know, and some large firms may
have that equipment and and they can do that kind of study and collect the data. Um, can can, you know, Verizon, if they choose to, can they redirect one of the antennas from the towers around to get
the signal more signal towards uh the west side of town, understanding that they may lose signal from the other side where they from? >> I have to know exactly the spots that people are concerned about, saying that Verizon is dead and so and so has
coverage. And then if I look at that, I can I can see if you go to the site and say, okay, I know those antennas are X and those antennas are Y. I can see where they're physically pointed at and come up with, okay, this is where things are and this is dead because of X
because their antennas are lower on the pole or these they're not pointing that way, but their network is optimized as a whole big conglomerate. If they take this and move it here, that just means you're going to lose it somewhere else. Yeah. >> So,
>> you know, it's it's it's all related and you can't just take everything and point it in here because then you just grew in other things. The worst thing to do is take coverage away from somebody that already has it.
>> Two hours. Really? There's an order to this. >> There's an order to this. Please, >> you want to hear from sir Lup also just as closing. >> Do you have anything you would like to add? >> I have a few things I could help
clarify. >> So the first thing I wanted to mention uh that um that I heard from Rob Gioso was uh the $270 per year. That's a safe harbor repair. He's accurate to say it's $270. It's not a cap or a maximum, but it's presumptive safe harbor. That's the
first uh small cells. Um 50 feet isn't part of definition of a small cell. That's accurate. But you could go higher as a municipality. If you want to do 60 or 70 feet, that's a possibility to do that. And I calculate that if you did small cells, it might be roughly six or maybe five or six. If you went 60 or 70
feet high to cover the same uh coverage gap, that's another possibility. Um one other thing that came up, I represent Bergen County and several municipalities. Um Frank Lakes uh has um been approached by Verizon by six small cell sites uh in the area. Uh they were
denied for a macro site and they referred over to um six small cells in in the town. That's something I spoke to him about. Um so those are kind of some of the things of clarification over here. The other thing too um Glenn um is that another thing you could do is potentially add another sector uh to a
poll. So if there's a three- sector site, you could potentially add a fourth sector site. sometimes on rooftops in Manhattan have five sectors per site uh depending on the on the areas I want to cover. So those are just a little points of clarification I just want to raise to the public and to mayor and council.
>> Okay. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Does anybody on council have any questions for any of the professionals that are here? Any remaining questions? >> No. >> Just one. >> Yeah. Go ahead. Well, um, can you kind
of bridge for us that Franklin Lake scenario then to what a small cell solution would look like here? I mean, obviously we spoke about a pole per carrier, etc. I mean, is that what they're doing? Are they not? >> So, it's only Verizon for now. So, uh, I think they're putting six up and as I
said, they were declined for a macro site. Uh, so they're reverting to, uh, six small cells. So right now as far as I know there is um only one but we do have anti-prololiferation provision in their uh ordinance which would require uh carriers to colllocate on top of
those uh new or existing infrastructure in town >> on top of or they so they would be forced if T-Mobile came along they have to go onto that 60oot tower as well they'd be forced to carry them. >> That's true. That's exactly right. So, Cliffside Park, uh, for example, AT&T
and Verizon, uh, deployed their small cells in town. Uh, they would put the permits at the same time. I picked that up and I require I told both carriers that you can't put two poles up on the same corner. You have to make sure there's only one carrier in Verizon and AT&T went ahead and utilized the same piece of infrastructure and colloccated
on the same pole. >> And if there's a third, if T-Mobile wants to come there and there's no more room on it, they have to put a poll across the street. >> They would demonstrate a need, mayor. Yes, that's correct. So they would have to demonstrate a need to um explain why they couldn't put a third carrier on that poll and they probably would be able to say that's too much or would be
a too low level. But if they could successfully prove that they were unable to locate on that poll, then they could go ahead and go to mayor and council and get permission to to colllocate, sorry, to put a poll in the vicinity >> and there'd be no way for a mayor and council to deny one while granting the other. >> That's correct. It would be
discriminatory and that would be uh you' be a violation. You couldn't prohibit service. So that would be an issue. >> So if one came that it's one in and everybody else joins it. >> Correct. >> Okay. Any other questions? >> No. No. Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you
very much for being here. Um, in addition to that guys, um, the public is now going to have an opportunity to, uh, ask some questions and they will be limited to three minutes and and we're going to, um, have them direct towards
the professionals here in the room to answer those questions. So, I appreciate you guys staying and and doing that. I guess Rob is the MC here. You can pass it if you've got to go to to Glenn if you want to raise your hand. It's something you can answer. Great. Um, let's do it that way. Um, okay. So, what
I'm going to request is if the question has already been asked here, please don't ask it again. So, we aren't, you know, we're not going to do redundant questions here. Um, and uh, let let's go from there. Let's see how how we we start out here. Um those who want to be
heard, >> there's an echo going. Somebody's mic is on. >> Is that better? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay, great. That's your question. Now you're done with your three minutes. Okay. Uh who would like to be heard?
Rob first. One at a time. I just No, Rob's going first. >> We'll we'll we'll get to everybody. Nobody's not going to get a chance. >> Thank you, sir. >> Hi, Rob Stigaliano, 6 Conklin Avenue,
Hillsdale. Um, I'm a member of the Stony Brook Swim Club. I believe our swim club is one of the best in the county. Uh, we have a managing director and her staff that work diligently to keep that club
pristine and inviting. And I think putting the cell phone tower in the Stonybrook parking lot, I I am totally against it. It's going to take away from the beauty of our facility. I also feel
it could negatively affect membership. People are not going to want to join if they're going to come and they're going to lay down and enjoy a sun-filled day staring up at a 120 foot tower. So, I have a couple of questions. One
question. When the tower is built, will the madam in the parking lot need to be torn up to put the base down >> in the location of the compound? Yes. >> Okay. So, I understand that other areas that were
looked at, it was said they couldn't put it there specifically, let's say, the field that's adjacent to the swim club because underneath the field is sand. underneath the parking lot is sand. And if I can share with the council,
we had >> Please pass it to the to the clerk. Just >> had an issue several years back with flooding and a problem with the uh sewer line. If you look at that, you're going to see that the hole that was dug to
complete it was very deep. You're going to see it's all sand under the parking lot. and the sewer line is right there. So, if the concern was they couldn't go on the field area because sand was under
the field, it's the same situation under the parking lot at the pool. So, I wanted to bring that point out. Another point I want to bring out is if this goes through and the parking lot
gets torn up, who's going to pay to have that parking lot repaired? Will the burrow cover that cost? >> If there's damage during construction, Verizon will cover the cost. >> Okay. It was also mentioned earlier that the
area was going to be 1300 square feet roughly and I'm hearing 4 to six parking spaces. >> Seven >> seven the parking spaces in the lot the the width of the space is 9 ft.
If you calculate or or step it out you're talking more than seven spaces. It could be 10. It could be 12. It also could be the way cars have to now be able to maneuver around where it's built. It may prevent cars from parking
in other spaces. >> We don't come out past the existing parking stalls. So where you're parking cars now would come out any further than that. Right here in >> Uhhuh. >> And then this would be the seventh stall here. They are at an angle. So we do take up a little bit more because
they're at that angle. Sir, that was actually three minutes when you finished and then I of course like your three minutes. >> All right. >> Who else would like to be heard? >> Question. >> Can you please keep it orderly?
>> Hi, I'm Megan Garin. I live at Tendri Drive. Um I have a question for all of you. Actually, the first thing is on February 10th, um this council had said that they were going to vote on having um someone come to do the independent
study and that that study would include it had to include drive test data that it would not be based on just these other maps and given information and that does not seem to be what has happened. So, if I'm wrong, fine. But
can you provide the actual drive test data or field measurements that led you to these conclusions, including signal strength readings, the locations of those measurements and where they were taken? >> That's that is information that I have.
>> So you did the actual drive test like you >> I I some drive tests from Verizon and then I drove around. >> Okay. But most of it was from Verizon. since Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile use. >> You asked the question. You asked the question. Let him >> But I only get three minutes.
>> Well, you asked a question, so he's got to answer it. >> And please speak way up. >> Yeah. People not hearing. >> Yeah. Um, yes, I have data. I have data that I collected because I drove a lot more roads. I drove uh some of the more minor roads around and uh which includes
Latin long and signal strength. Uh and then the data that Verizon provided uh which is one of the more major roads around uh has the same information in it. If they okay that I can release it then I can release it. If they do not okay then I cannot but I can release
mine. If the town is interested in but my report says that I compared it to the propagation and it it's pretty close. >> Okay. What R, RS, RP, and RSRQ thresholds did you use to define poor
coverage? And are those thresholds consistent with industrial standards for the LTE or 5G service? >> Uh, the Verizon standard they provided was 8 minus 85 RSRP. >> Yep. >> I did not look at RSRQ because you need
signal strength first >> and then we worry about quality later. But uh so I was just looking at signal strength and what was the other question? >> So I asked about are they consistent with it with the so why did you not do the other one then? Why did you not
>> don't do RFQ or because I wasn't I'm looking at the single strength and comparing it to the design threshold. U quality you can work with an optimization to get the quality but if you don't have the signal you're not going to have the quality. But what
optimization are you saying? Because you're saying that >> when you optimize a system, when you optimize the network and you move the antennas around a little bit, everything else to try to make sure that each signal that you get is clean. >> Therefore, you'll have good quality, but you still need signal first. That's the
most important, >> right? >> Work on quality later. So, let's look at the first thing, which is the signal strength, and make sure we have some of that. and looking at quality. Uh I don't think that that's uh really that valuable at this point.
>> You need to sign first. >> Thank you. Next. >> Yeah. Come on up. We're gonna This is the attorney that represents um some families in the homeowners association. We're going to give you a little bit more than three
minutes to to to go ahead and ask some questions. >> Will it detract from what people >> No, everybody else can ask the three minutes worth of questions. I'm going to give you a little latitude because it represents >> Okay, great. Do you want to hold until they go first or
>> I'm just Yeah, that makes sense, I think. >> Okay. Well, I just want to make sure that the res so we don't get repetition. >> Sure, that's fine. >> Okay. >> Can you turn off your mic in the inter? >> Thank you. >> I'll be pretty brief. Um, Harold Schillshaw Court Hillsdale. First, I'd
like to thank Mr. Kleti for raising the question about differential coverage from uh different providers. I think that's a very interesting question. It's one that's worth pursuing, one having the actual knowledge. We are AT&T customers ourselves. Apologies, guys. Uh
but uh we u we never have a problem with the cell phone coverage at all whether we're walking around or inside the home. Although some of the providers we get, some of the uh vendors who come in do occasionally have problems in getting a
connection. So the the act the question there is real. Um but um the question of differential coverage I think is a very interesting one. I'd like to know more about what is covered and what is not. Uh secondly, I would um I wish there had
been more time to digest uh Mr. Pearson's report. There's some very interesting data in there and I would request that council make it available to uh the general public on the website. >> It's on the website. It's been >> It's on the website. Okay. copy. >> Yeah, I have a copy. Yeah, I want to get
I don't see it there, but is is it in the government section? >> It's in the what's happening section. >> Okay. Okay. And uh finally, a question for Mr. Pearson there. Um I skimmed through the report picking it up this
evening and I saw he identified six possible sites if the macro tower um alternative were chosen. Are these rank ordered in um by efficiency? I know you started with the Pasak Valley High School. You mentioned the park then the
parking lot beside the board of education is one of these. The Pasak Bible Church, Hillsdale House. Uh the country club which is actually in uh Riverdale I believe. But is this a priority sequence? It was not listed in
priority but the following paragraphs do state this was be a first choice this would be a second choice and a third choice if you refer them. >> That's the way I interpreted it and just glancing at it and thank you for the clarification and thank you for the council for some excellent questions
that have been asked from the Verizon representatives for Mr. Pearson and so on and we appreciate the responsiveness of council to the community. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Hi, I'm Gene Brosian. I live at 11 Drake
Drive in Hillsdale. Um I would want to re reiterate what this gentleman said. I've been a um loyal Verizon customer for decades. And when I came to um Hillsdale a few years ago, I kept Verizon even though it was really bad
service. the minute I changed to AT&T and I did that because of our last meeting and seeing those maps, my coverage is perfect. So, in a perfect world, I'm sorry, if everyone actually got AT&T or T-Mobile, what kind of need
would remain? Um, that's just more of a statement. >> Please, please don't. >> But the but the question I have is more about like safety. So it was t it was mentioned about you know being um near a residence and how that that wasn't good
for the small cells if I understood that correctly but um uh there's um an idea of a fall zone around such a large tower. I know there's a very large um expensive house being built exactly across the street from where this would
this would occur. What would you know what is the rate of like these towers falling, catching fire, um destroying this like $2 million house that's being built right across the street? It makes sense that these towers are in remote areas like near the
Garden State Parkway or something where they wouldn't fall and and you know kill someone. So I'd like to know about that. >> So the question is the fall zone. Would someone from Verizon like to speak to that? So, we'll extend the three minutes to
encompass the answer. >> So, I'm going to go back a step because there was a statement earlier and I'm going to have Tim talk about I'm sorry, I'm going to have Steve talk about the fall zone, but there was a statement about that we don't put it in sand. I in no way made that statement. The
statement was that uh we're not going to locate it in a flood plane, and that's for obvious reasons. the the soils are tested and the foundation is designed based on the soils. Whether you have rock, whether you have sand, it'll be designed to a national standard for
telecommunications towers. So that's that's how the foundation is designed to make it sure it's safe. And that would be different than a utility pole which generally doesn't have a foundation. It's just planted in the ground. Uh, so the tower will be designed to the national standard for telecommunications
tower based on the exact location. As far as the fall zone, um, I'll let Steve just speak to that a little bit and about, you know, designs and hinge points and things of that nature. >> Uh, just to add to that, the all monopoles and these structures are
designed for federal, state, and local codes. Um beyond that it this is three carrier site only two carriers grow up there. Obviously it's got some additional capacity. Um
fall zone I I'm kind of unfamiliar what exactly you mean by >> well 30 feet it's going to go in what direction? I guess maybe a better question or correct me if I'm wrong here. What is the likelihood? How often does this happen? Is it is it frequent?
Is it infrequent? pretty infrequent. I I don't know of any around here that have fallen down. But like I said, we designed it per all federal codes and standard just like you build a house, you know. So these these polls are designed not to fall down. >> I understand that. But
>> extremely infrequently >> extremely infrequently. >> I don't have a statistic with me, but you know, in in the 30 years that I've been doing this, I can I can think of maybe three or four times that I've written the paper where a tower has failed. And typically it's it's failed
because of some type of external event. In addition to that, the way the tower can >> the way the tower could be designed if if so towers are not designed to to fall over like this. >> Yeah. >> They're made out of metal. They collapse upon themselves. If you wanted to design
it to encourage it collapsing on itself, you overdesign the base of the tower. Let's say 70 feet up. You overdesign it. You make it stronger. So if the tower were to fall, it would deflect on itself and fall within that reach. Correct. Exactly. >> Like a hinge.
>> Exact. And they call it a hinge point in some cases. It's not an actual hinge point. It's just they overdesign the base of the tower. >> Overdesign the base. Okay. >> Just to make it clear, we don't design the towers to fall in that you would. >> We can overdesign certain parts of the tower. Yes.
>> Okay. >> Next question, please. Sam, >> mayor, council. Thank you guys. Uh Sam Resnick, five Drake Drive. Uh I have a question on the report that um Mr. Pearson made. Uh in the section about
the pool, you had referenced that the Holddrum brook runs along these properties and that may limit or eliminate the properties for the installation of a macro cell. So I just wanted some uh clarification on that point. I'm reading exactly from the
report because it's a little confusing. >> I just recognize that if you look on the Google maps, you can see whole it's labeled as Hullbrook, right? And uh it cuts the property in half, right? The
northern part's a field and then the southern parts the the swim more the swim thing and it cuts through there. Now uh it was mentioned by Verizon there are D setbacks to a brook that's what that is referring to >> and would this fall within that setback
are we >> scroll back up the first the first picture >> well not even yeah >> those are the setbacks here this is the floodway from the brook this is where the site is we are in a repairarian zone but since we're on existing surface uh
we can permit it by rule. >> So then it's limited on where you can go on the property in this particular case. >> So they so you couldn't go any closer to the brook. You're at the point where it's outside that to get permit by rule. >> Correct. Especially if there's vegetation.
>> Have we spoken to the state yet about this? Like have they given us permits? Are we allow are we even allowed to build a cell phone tower in this? >> We can permit by rule our criteria. If you're not taking down trees, if you stay away from the water repair. >> Uh yeah, specifically vegetation within
the top of bank. Um >> yeah, it it states removal of vegetation in the repairing zone, but we're on the parking lot. Just so everyone understands, a permit by rule allows the DP no longer you put in for a permit >> and then they can extend as a matter of
course a certain amount of time but if you adhere to certain standards they cannot deny delay delay you for extended periods. >> They have certain rules or criteria if you meet it then you don't have to go to the DB permit. >> Okay. And we'd have to adhere to the state's requirements and we are in this
location that location. Okay. Next question please. Hi, good evening. Thank you everybody for uh setting this up so we can ask questions. >> Please state your name. >> Yes, I'm Teresa Gorman and I'm at 3 Drake Drive in Hillsdale. Um I know
we're trying to modernize the communication technology for the town and I think that's a really great thing. But as we're looking forward 5G is not where we're standing, right? We're already pushing for 6G and my question to the team is what are we doing about
tech debt over time as new stuff comes out. How are we handling the dismantling of stuff that's no longer it's going to be obsolete at some point in time? This is a very long lease. And so I just wanted some questions about when the new technology comes out, is this even
really going to be how we're going to do things? Yeah. >> So what's the what's the criteria? What do you use going forward? >> There's a provision in the RFP and then lease. Yeah. Okay. So, explain to the residents here what >> there's a there's a provision. >> There's a there's So,
>> again, in 30 years, I never seen a tower taken down for obsolescence. >> Okay. So, what happens on on a tower that was only for four? They put five on it. >> Good question. Correct. They they update the equipment. They update the antennas and they provide the additional services
from the existing facilities. They densify the network with more facilities which is what we've seen but the existing facilities are modified. >> Okay. So if if they went to six it might be a smaller area and then you talk about what else you do to supplement
that to to hit everybody if a tower wanted to go from five to six. >> Yeah. Usually they they first they do an overlay on the existing facilities and they upgrade the equipment to be able to provide the additional services and then if there's a need to fill in they would densify from there. But there's a provision in the lease if the tower did
become obsolete to be removed. >> How often do uh car uh technicians visit the macro sites to do maintenance? And >> so they're remotely monitored 24/7. We say we say, you know, conservatively every six weeks. It's probably less than
that, but that's what we say conservatively. >> Okay. Next from the audience, please. Well, I'll get you next. We are one one already in motion. >> Hello, my name is Jackie Toill on 106
Holiday Lane. Um, I have a I have AT&T also, just like the other two people, and I never had a problem with my service at all. It works great. I don't have problems. I could even be right in front of the high school. I don't have
job calls. So, like he said, the priority is not into that area. So, what about if you put the priority into that area? Now, Rivervale has another tower. Maybe you could use that for other things as well. So, this way you have
Riverdale covered and you have this side covered. Is that an option? >> Is that a question more for >> you talking about coverage area versus the different providers? the Riverale site is they're on the air on the new River site, >> right? Can you also go on the air?
Because you said if you put the priority towards the high school, >> it's >> so so it takes away from other areas. But what my my point is if you put it towards the high school, >> it'll cover that area because like I said, I have AT&T have great service. So
if you put the priority there and then allocate some some of yours to the other to a river bail to cover the other side if it's a short wall. Is that a possibility? >> Andy can why don't you go up to the microphone so it people at home are >> sure we've got hundreds of them. They
don't want to watch this. >> Yeah. I I think the answer is simple. Um if if we could address the issue by leveraging the existing assets, by adding uh sectors, by tweaking asmmiths, um using what we already have out in the
field, uh Verizon would certainly do that. Um in this case, we just don't have uh the assets, the equipment, the height on surrounding towers. Um the list goes on and on. Um we can't change the topography here. we can't change the the frequencies in which we're
allocated. Um, >> we require a new site. >> I get that. I just want to supplement this question. So, we've had a couple of people say that AT&T is not really experiencing the same problems. Uh, and then we're getting a contradiction over here. Um, you guys are the RF specialists, the engineers that that do
this, whether it's Glenn or whomever. Um he said that there'd maybe be a difference between an SOS and a one bar between the two, but we're hearing that there's full bars. Is that possible? What what's what's the chat? >> I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal testimony
here. I've also heard that everyone on every provider drops in a certain area to the north. So I mean I think it's clear that there that there is an issue for all providers. Now maybe because of the subtleties. >> Please answer your question. I think as was mentioned maybe because the of the
subtleties in the design differences of the surrounding sites um perhaps some of the Verizon competitors are a little bit better. I mean, and and that's not uncommon, um, where you have sites that, you know, there's only one
top spot on a tower. Um, and if you have a number of towers that surround an area and that's the case and and their ads in this happen to be, you as the direction that they're their antennas point happen to be more favorable towards a certain area, then you can have a situation
where they are marginally better, but um, >> in my experience, not wholesale. >> Would we take differences? >> Would we read anything into it? if you were to build a monopole and AT&T didn't come versus did come. I mean like what's the criteria of saying, you know, or
T-Mobile or whatever to say um to recognize that yes, we are or we aren't experiencing the service gap. I mean, do you do you not find out until you find out if someone wants to colllo locate on your poll? No, I I think um what what Glenn had mentioned earlier um is what
what the what the bureau could do is contract a third party to do a a subjective >> $15,000 >> object. Well, that's that's if you rent the equipment to >> do it ourselves. >> I I I do these types of tests often. Um and I have a group that does them for me and um they can be they can be done
somewhat affordably. Certainly not $15,000, more on the order of $1,000 or so. >> Sounds like he wants to weigh in. Um but yeah they they should be done in in the leaf on condition. >> Okay it just becomes it becomes very subjective. I mean the other carriers
may be higher on surrounding poles. If you look in this area you have two different poles with multiple carriers. You don't usually see two poles in the same location >> right? >> And when you see one pole in a location you usually see at least three carriers on the pole. And that's for a reason. Once the one carrier builds the pole,
the other carriers colllocate on it because they know they're going to have a need. If if Verizon has more customers in one area, the pole in that area is going to have less capacity in the neighboring area and the service will be depleted. So there's a very complicated
optimization that goes into providing the service where the customers are. Not every carrier has the same number of customers. Not every carrier has the same number of customers in a particular geographic area. Um, so it's it's more complicated than just saying a certain
number of people have AT&T service and therefore AT&T doesn't have a need in the area. What we do know is that Verizon has a need and that's what we're trying to fill. Um, and that was the purpose of Verizon responding to the RFP. I think you've heard anecdotal testimony about the need for Verizon,
but I think more importantly, you've heard from two different experts about the technical need for Verizon. We suspect if we build this pole um the other carriers will clearly colllocate on it and we also suspect that the municipal service antennas will also find a home on this poll to provide
additional you know service for the emergency service providers. So we're very confident in that. >> Okay. >> Why would they join your poll when their service is perfect? >> Hold on a sec. >> You're definitely out of tough. Um >> well but I'm I'm asking them
I understood that but we do have a time limit. >> Okay. Thank you, Robert. Thank you. Thank you very much. We have another question coming from over here. >> Uh Bernard Higgins 203 Everdell. I just have a couple of questions about colllocators.
Um colllocators will require the same amount of uh footprint also add more antennas to the tower. T-Mobile and AT&T. Where exactly would they put their
equipment? Plus a generator. Hold on. A generator that someone mentioned was a propane generator. Where is the propane tank? >> Sure. So, here is Verizon's equipment. >> Is that an equipment shelter?
>> It's an equipment pad with equipment cabinets on the pad. >> It's It's outdoor equipment. Correct. Outdoor equipment. And then what we've done is we've shown we've shown three different spaces for the other characters.
>> So they'd be confined within I would assume you built some sort of perimeter with a fence >> perimeter fence >> and they would put >> equipment shelters outdoor cabinets. >> They were all using outdoor equipment. >> Outdoor cabinets. >> Correct. And then what we showed on the tower was rising at the top. And then we
showed space for three other three other similar types of antennas. >> So with the equipment and the tower, what was the footprint? >> It was about 1,300 square feet. So we had we had here 20 ft wide by 65 ft long.
>> So you need a lot less space if it was just going to be your you on the pole because you wouldn't have to extend it for other providers. >> You talk about the compound. the compound. >> Yeah, the compound. You wouldn't need you wouldn't need those other three slots that you got up to the north if you thought you were going to be there alone. >> It would just So you you've accommodated
you for more requirement. >> What if they decide also to use a propane generator? >> Um I I didn't specifically say propane. I said natural gas or >> Well, natural gas I'm not sure is Cedal Lane or >> Yeah. Then they would go diesel.
>> They'd go diesel. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And the pro and the what about the the colllocators? Do we get money a town? >> Yes. If if another town if another provider decides that they want to
colllocate on AT&Ts, it would be on on Verizon's poll, it would then be I guess we enter into negotiations with them as a separate >> who owns the poll. >> Who owns the poll? The actual poll that's owned by >> Verizon. Verizon. They're renting.
They're renting the space. >> They would get in um income from the collocators. >> Yes. >> What about the town? >> The the town we the town >> Yeah. How much? >> Oh, it's open to negotiation. We know we're going to get $48,000 initially
from Verizon and then depending upon >> T-Mobile or AT&T. It would be another negotiation depending upon where they are on the tower, what it's for. And we're also getting a free OEM uh antenna as out of this as well to help for emergency
>> police antenna. >> Police OEM obviously emergency management. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. Another question please. >> Hi, my name is Tammy Calabic Kathy RH. Um just want to make a statement and then a quick question. I'm looking here
at the number of towns who are fighting cell towers in Bergen County. Mwa just successfully uh uh dropped plans for a 500 foot communication tower. Hocus Wikov Hillsdale are currently disputing. The fact that this topic is causing so
much tension with our citizens, does this not make an impression for the welfare of our citizens in Hillsdale? Also quality of life, possible health, >> please. >> Thank you. Possible health risks. Has anybody looked into it? Do you think a
cell tower doesn't emit radiation, doesn't cause possible cancer? Again, are we looking into the health risks of a cell tower in our town? >> Thank you. Would you like to address the the health risks aspect of it?
So federal law specifically preempts local governments from regulating on the basis of radio frequency exposure provided that the facility complies with the regulations >> as federal regulations federal regulations which is which is a very conservative regulation based on the
scientific consensus. It has a 50 time uh safety factor built into it. with that uh Andy testified earlier about the fraction of 1% of the allowable 100% limitation that this facility would operate at. So the facility will be >> Explain that to the fraction of 1%.
>> If the speed limit was 100 miles an hour, the facility is going less than one miles per hour. >> Okay. >> So 100 is 100 is the limit the maximum >> correct is the maximum exposure rate and you're >> correct >> down to one10enth of 1%. >> Correct.
>> Okay. That's it. Another question. Please come on up. Please. >> I'm Charlie Bobby, 133 L Road in Hillsdale. Um, we've been in this town for I don't want to say because it gives my
age away, but it's a while. >> It's it's a while, 60 years. >> We've been members of Stonybrook since 1970. And uh my question is one of aesthetics. Um Hillsdale was always a little village
and over the years you know it has changed. It has become a mini city. It's beginning to be overdeveloped. We're having housing everywhere sprouting up. And one thing about Stonybrook was and is that it's
charming. It's for no reason for no other reason than it was voted number one in Bern County. So I find it just absolutely lovely. Now, would anybody of you here want to live across a cell tower?
>> Or would you like to spend >> Please, can we >> respect the person who's talking or eating into her time by applauding? >> Or maybe would you like to um spend your summer time after hard labor, relaxing with children, babies, infants,
everybody, and then stare at this obscenity of a huge tower in the background? Uh we don't cut down trees because they're lovely. I'd love to cut down that cell down if it goes up. It's really a consideration uh that I think is most
urgent. We have so little space left in our town that's charming and beautiful and our parks leave much to be desired anyway as far as beauty is concerned. But Stonybrook there is just something very special about it. And I know many many people here don't go to Stonybrook
and it's only open for three months. But it's a very precious time and a very precious space. So that is my concern and my objection uh to erecting this because it's not only a tower high, but it's also a base. And I went past the
one by the DPW. And I thought, what would it be like to drive my car, got get around the corner, park it, and then walk away, and then sit in my chair in the sun, and then turn around and look at that. It just doesn't make any sense.
But maybe financially for the town, it probably does make sense. Thank you. >> Thank you very, please. Oh, no, no, no, no. Shoot. We had another question. I didn't I didn't need that. Robert, I'm sorry. >> Robert Robin.
>> Okay. >> Hi, Robin Nearoff, one Drake Drive in Hillsdale. Since we're talking about health, let me say that my past job was as a full-time researcher at Columbia's medical school. I know how to read the research. So my answer since you're talking about safety here, are you aware
of a 2023 metaanalysis of 38 studies evaluating the health effects of cell towers? They showed that 74% of those studies showed negative health effects from cell tower exposure. 77% showed higher rates of cancer. The WHO's cancer research agency, the International
Agency for Research on Cancer, determined there's sufficient evidence to classify RF radiation as possibly carcinogenic to humans. And the American Cancer Society does not say cell towers do not cause cancer. Instead, they say more research needs to be done to
determine whether living, working, or going to school near a cell phone tower might increase the risk of cancer or other health problems. So, I would like to know what is Verizon's legal liability if there's a cluster of children at our elementary school across the street from this location that's been proposed, or is there any legal
recourse for others who live near the proposed cell tower location should they become ill at some point in the future? And what efforts does Verizon take to minimize the potential exposure to people who live, work, or go to school near your towers? What accountability will Verizon and the Hillsdale Council
have if and when the negative impacts of cell towers become more widely known and acknowledged beyond those of us who actually know how to read the research? >> You're just delaying, please. >> Yeah. >> So, so again, the the facility must
comply with federal law as a federally licensed carrier. The facility does comply with federal law. Um, nevertheless, there are insurance and indemnification provisions and the proposed lease agreement as part of the RFP and we ensure that by doing the third party study and maintaining our
facility and making sure it's operational within those parameters that it's always in compliance with the >> We have a we have a tower right out here. Okay. So, um um what what exposure do the residents here >> have that is is it's at the firehouse,
right? and one at the DPW as opposed to over there by the school um you know swim. >> So every every you have exposure from everything. You have exposure from radio frequency from these lights. >> Yeah. >> From your own body,
>> right? >> From everything in our environment. And the wireless facilities are specifically regulated. So they must be in compliance with the federal standards. And that's what this proposed facility will be as is o every other facility and including
the one out back. >> Have you heard of the these other studies? And >> I I I could go on the internet and find studies that say a lot of different things. The American Cancer Society doesn't find a link. But these are
different studies that quite frankly is why Congress in 1996 tasked the FCC with as being the agency that was the expert agency in this field to look at all the scientific studies and come up with a standard. And Congress also saw fit to
have a national standard based on what the FCC believed the proper standard should be. And the FCC built in a 50 time safety factor. That safety factor includes all ages, both male and female, at all times under worst case scenario and built in a 50 time safety factor. So
that's the standard. As I mentioned before, as Andy testified, as report shows, this proposed facility is less than 1% of that 100% standard. So I can't stand here and argue particular um studies. There are studies for, studies
against, but at the end of the day, I can't stand here and argue studies from the internet. I can tell you that the FCC was assigned by Congress to be the expert agency, established a standard with a built-in 50 time safety factor, and we're well, well, well below that
safety factor and most importantly in compliance with the standard. >> Thank you. >> Can I please use my remaining time to respond to that? >> There is no rem. >> I took three minutes to say that. >> You took three minutes. The answer probably took us to five minutes.
>> I was not responsible for the answer. >> This doesn't >> We don't just time the questions. >> Can we give her give her another 30 seconds here to >> Thank you. Let me say that the current FCC guidelines date from 1996 and have
not been updated. In 2021, a US court of appeals ruled that the FCC has acted arbitrary and comprecious by refusing to update those guidelines. Multiple expert bodies including the European Parliamentary Research Service and various state commissions have called for stronger protections in application
of the precautionary principle and many countries have adopted more protective standards than the US. So we are not on top of the situation. Come on, go next. >> Hello. Um, my name is Elena Pova, 23 Shoemacker Avenue. Uh, thank you for
having this discussion and in particular, thank you to the council people for addressing crucial questions with objectivity and difference in provider service. For instance, um my family lives in the area that's shaded uh not shaded green and considered low
or no coverage, but we have T-Mobile and excellent service and no issues. So that's a very important thing I think because this seems to be a very Verizon specific technical deficiency with coverage. The question I wanted to ask
is um regarding the Pier 4 expert report uh particularly uh this is a quote from page seven analysis of uh macrocell towers and the best place to place them. So, um, the expert said that based on being nearest, uh, being the nearest
non-residential property to the center of the coverage deficiency and being partially up on a hill, the best location for a mapel from a radio frequency perspective is the parking lot just south of the board of education building. So, I'd like to ask uh, Verizon, any experts that were involved
in this decision, and the council, was this site considered? And uh where can we the residents the public uh find out why it wasn't a fit if it appears to be in terms of radio frequency and deficiency of coverage the best possible
solution. >> I don't know if you want to earlier >> it was but I will also tell you that I was on the phone with Robert Lombardi today who is the superintendent of the board of of education and controls that lot and they have no interest in allowing us to do that. Yet they demand
better coverage for the school. >> Irony is replete. >> So what what where does that take? >> It also appears to be a less problematic site from what we've heard in terms of having sand or sewer lines underneath. There's no trees. It's already a parking
lot and it's also not on school territory and you know fields that are dispute county not county. So why is this absolutely unworkable? like this seems very very unconstructive. >> You can ask him. >> You could ask the board of education.
That's not our land. >> We don't have we don't have jurisdiction over that. In the same way, I couldn't tell you I could put it on your I couldn't put it on your property unless I we eminent domain, but we're not going to obviously do that. Um we can only control the municipal property. We don't
control the board of education. We don't control Pascak High School. We don't control the church, any of the other sites. The only type that that's on that list that we have a say over that will hit that area is the one that is before us all tonight. >> And what about uh putting it on existing
structures such as Hillsdale House and perhaps I don't know school roofs. Is that a consideration if it's a smaller scale amplify or some sort of >> that was kind of answered before but but >> that's in the report I talked about. >> Glenn if you could come towards the microphone so that the residents could hear.
>> That is in the report. I addressed Hillsdale House as in it's not going to if you put antennas on the roof, it doesn't clear the tree line. So, it's not going to cover anywhere near something that does clear the tree line. Um, and if you did maybe a I put it I
started with like a small cell type of of approach in the report. If you put something Hillstown house, you put something at the high school, you can solve that little zone, but what about the rest of the town that you can't reach from those places, especially if it's a small cell? So
>> we we are well over three minutes and not including the answer at this time if that makes anybody feel better. >> I would suggest that questions be kept crisp and direct and would similarly ask
that answers be crisp and direct or else they eat three minutes up very quickly. Another fell just >> it wasn't mic drop everybody. Sorry. Good evening everybody. My name is Alexander Tishinko 23 resident.
>> Sorry we couldn't hear your name again. >> Uh Alexander Tishinko 23 Hills day resident. My question is about uh to the experts to Mr. Peterson and to the rise representative. Uh can it be the problem solved by you mentioned earlier that for
some towers you can extend it for 20 ft. Why not extend the current towers that we have? Can it be done? Can be put it more uh more height to it because it's already here. It's established because I think we have now more powerful antennas
and it can be addressed. Can it be done and have this possibility be considered and what's need to be done to uh answer it to that question? That's my question. >> Thank you. >> Who would like to come up and answer the question? >> I'll be quick. Yeah. Speaking, you know,
strictly for Verizon, if we were, let's say, able to extend all the surrounding sites 10 ft, would the coverage improve? Sure. There would be some encroachment of new signal into the areas. Um but but we've got a a relatively large area here
of of underserved and and unserved uh subscribers. So we still need an some some new facility that's central to this gap in coverage. Extending towers nearby isn't going to help us. >> Okay. Next question, please.
>> Mr. Pearson, do you have anything to add to that? >> Do you have anything to add to that? Keith, >> yeah, the only thing that that I had recognized is that there's a discrepancy in Westwood where Verizon, I believe, is
only at 80 ft. Um, that's the only thing that I see there's is any significant difference from any of the other providers in any other town. >> So 100 even if they went up to 110 in Westwood, it would only partially
I don't know expertise here. Yeah, that that would be something that have to be looked at if it was even possible. But that's the only thing that I noticed that was any kind of describ describ >> where is the tower in Westwood specifically? Does anyone have that answer as to where in Westwood it is?
>> Firehouse southern. >> Okay. Yeah, I've seen that tower >> significantly south. So that's that's a that's a big trip over. >> There's a set of antennas that are low and a set of antennas that are high. And then there's another tower with the the other third provider on it. Okay,
>> Mr. Mayor, I want to make sure that that the answer that I understood the answer you gave was that even if you were to extend the height of the existing two towers here, wherever which one you're on, I think you're on the uh the one right here in the firehouse. If you extended that 10, 15, 20 feet, it would
not help. It would not help. You don't know how much it would help. >> I think it would encroach into the areas >> encroach in a good sense, >> right? in a good way, but it would provide a little bit more signal. I haven't modeled it, but just based on experience.
>> So, you don't know how much >> I can I can probably >> fill in the gaps significantly. >> I looked at the terrain and I looked at the drive test data, the signal from the the Hill Firehouse goes to the top of the hill going east and then dies going down the other side. 10 feet is not
going to make a difference. >> How much would it have to be extended to make a difference? >> Not a realistic. You wouldn't try to get it from there. You don't want to try to get it from here. You uh because that you're not going to you're not going to add 50 feet to it to try to get over that hill and down the other side.
>> And I and I think I would just expand on that question and that and I think it's reasonable to ask, well, not just these two towers here, but if every tower that you're currently on, if you had the ability to go up, if you had the ability to go up, would it encroach enough on that space to where it could trigger a
small tower type scenario to fill the gap or no? No. Okay. >> Okay. Next question. >> Jay Wein, can you hear me? >> Yeah, we hear you. >> Jay Weinstein, one Drake Drive. So, it's interesting that Woodcliffe
Lake denied a tower and they're using small cells. So that might be a good case study to demonstrate the effectiveness of this alternative. If if the MUN site has a contract with the town and and they were to install
small small cells on six poles and they were not effective, they could just take them down. Isn't that right? I mean, why not pursue that strategy first before building an immovable
>> uh macro tower for 30 years? Is there anyone who can answer succinctly that question? >> I I think we answered that. I think that that the small cell design from a technical standpoint is number one much
more obtrusive and number two much less um operational. >> No, you're the expert over here said they can get the signal with the small cells. He said you can have the signal that's not the problem. feel good in emergencies. >> Yeah. I again I think we I think we
addressed it in that and I don't think it's a yes or no answer. I think that >> if you want 20 small cells times three carriers on 41 foot towers in residential neighborhoods. In theory, you could get
the signal, >> but it also wouldn't have a backup battery >> emergency or generator or generator, >> you know, it would be susceptible to >> So, it's it's a decision. It's a decision that it's a decision to make. Either you want to go that way, you want to go the other way, but that's not
>> But I think the specific question was, is there a maybe it is for you? Is there a benefit to trying it and then if it doesn't work, resort to a different option? Was that your question? Yes. >> Okay. Is there a direct answer, mindful
of time, to that direct question? >> I I think that's a financial issue because you're going to have to pay someone to develop this, string all the fiber, put this out there and then what what's going to be the decision point,
how many times it goes down, what you know, I don't know what you're going to use as a decision point. I mean, you can get the signalizer that way. There's pluses and minuses. I mean, >> do you want do you want an example of what one looks like? Do you I mean, I'm not sure what you want, but if you're going to build an entire network out of
that and spend all the money to to do those, uh, who's going to flip, you know, I think it's a it's not an RF issue. It's it's a financial issue or it's, you know, >> as a business point, it generally doesn't happen. You don't build it to tear it try it out and tear it down. I
haven't seen it, but it's a radio perspective, not a business perspective. >> Do I have any more time? >> You're pretty close, but you're super fast. >> Well, I just like to make the point that my wife did indeed have a communication
with Dirk Phillips, the school superintendent, in January, the end of January, and he he said he'd be open and interested in a monopole or other cell technologies being installed by the school. >> Very good. So that sounds like the problem is solved. If that were true, >> stop. Yeah. No need to be sarcasm about
it. We we've met with we've met with with the school. We met with him as recently as Thursday. It is it's not feasible there. Not only did the the place where Glenn recommended it is a Rossi site. So it's recreational open
space inventory. We can't get access to it. Whether he wanted to or not, it becomes a non-starter. whether it's on on a uh a list that uh our independent advisor located or not, it's just it's a
non-starter. >> Okay. >> It's not our land. It's it's open space. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. Sure. >> Next question. >> Okay. Here we go. We will give we will give council uh more than the three
minutes here. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Um Mr. Kioso uh you had suggested to the council that they cannot consider health effects of wireless radiation and I don't think that's correct because they
haven't signed a lease yet and it's municipal land. So they can certainly consider health effects. Is that right? You admit that? >> I'm sorry. We just I I don't you know my name. I don't know your name. >> I'm Bob Bird. >> Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you. >> At this stage, before they sign a lease
with you and it goes to the planning board, they can consider health effects. >> Sure. >> All day long, right? >> They uh they issued an RFP and Verizon responded to the RFP and Verizon has, I believe, demonstrated the need for the
facility. And under federal law, I believe ultimately the municipality can make not make a decision on sighting based on radio frequency exposure as long as the facility is in compliance with the federal. >> There's no lease sign. So they can walk
away and say go home, we don't want you. And they can based on health and you can't do anything about it. Correct. >> No, I wouldn't say that. I think >> on based on what detrimental reliance on >> you asked the question, let me ask the question please. I believe ultimately >> please could you come over so we on the microphones if you want.
>> I believe I believe the Telecommunications Act of 1996 specifically says that a municipality may not prohibit the provision of personal wireless services. And in fact, the third circuit uh which
is the highest federal court in this district has said that means a municipality may not materially inhibit the ability of a personal wireless service provider such as Verizon Wireless from providing its
services. In addition to that, the Telecommunications Act says that a municipality may not unreasonably discriminate among functionally equivalent providers of such service. So I think ultimately if there is a need
for Verizon service that ultimately under the code and under the decision making of the burrow there has to be a spot for Verizon to place its facility or facilities to provide that service. How we get there I think is you know is
debatable. I think that the council recognized the need, recognized the concerns, issued an RFP, and is having this process for a reason. But to say that ultimately the council could
just say no, I don't believe that's a correct statement of the law. But that's not what we're here to argue tonight. Tonight, we're here to provide information on this particular facility that was proposed as a response to an RFB. So you're you're saying that the
municipality has to lease land to you against its will for instance because you want to put up cell power and there's cite me a case that says that because I'm not going to be told we're not going to get into that. >> What I'm not going to do is I'm not going to be told what I said when I didn't say it.
>> Let's move on. >> Hold on. Hold on. This was in no way the intention of affording you additional. >> Okay. But that's because he misstated your right and you have the right to consider health effects on this. >> It sounds to me like you were trying to
make that point that health effects maybe cannot be considered by the board. Can >> they can't be consider >> you can't interrupt everybody. >> But your point is that it is not mandatory to ever RFP the property to
begin. Correct. >> Correct. Exactly. >> All right. Well, I said it in 10 seconds. You want to argue about it for >> I don't want to argue at all. I want to go on other things that more important >> wellfocused direct non-legal questions that would educate the council
>> when we when the council uh hired an independent expert. Uh he was supposed to go out and get actual readings, RF readings uh of the coverage throughout the town so we would know where there were actually gaps and we would know what the readings were. We don't have
that at all. We would we wanted to know on this street the Verizon's coverage was 110 dB and uh AT&T's coverage was 85 dB. We don't have that at all. We have no knowledge of what carriers have
coverage and coverage, you know, isolated gaps in coverage. We don't have anything like that at all. Now, where is that? He didn't do it. He doesn't have the fancy equipment. The guy I proposed has the fancy equipment. Mr. Gazalei didn't want him for some reason. I don't know why. Uh but so we're starting from
a base level without having any coverage maps from actual data and he hasn't provided any backup data. >> There's a question. >> Yeah. Where's his backup data and why can't we have all his backup data and why didn't he do what he was asked to do?
>> I had informed the uh >> Can you turn your mic please? I have informed the the council that uh I would not be able to get data from the other carriers. Uh I don't think it's the right time. If you want to do an actual
accurate comparison, you need to do it in the summertime. >> And I communicated that before I started anything. >> Right. But they wanted to go they wanted to go ahead anyway. >> No. >> Could you let let him in >> pretend like we're actually on the
record, which we are. and that questions get answered and then you at least wait for him to breathe and make it sound like his sentence ended and then perhaps you could ask an additional. >> Sure. Right. And in order to if providing a all the very detailed data
is very difficult for uh a non-engineer to to uh digest and it's confusing and it's a bunch of dots on a map and and what I basically what I did was looked at the data made some corrections
because it wasn't done in the summertime take and looked at and compared it to the actual propagation said this This is where it's it's good. This is where it's a little optimistic. This is where it's pessimistic. So that it's been verified. That is certainly close enough. It's
within 500 ft. Okay? So you don't need the other stuff because it's already been verified. If I gave you all the stuff, you know, you're if I gave you if I printed out all the things, it could be 20,000 lines of data. Okay.
>> Um, so I mean it doesn't it's not going to help you unless you have the right tools in order to look at it. >> And you know what it means? >> I have the right experts. So if you gave me the data, I could give the data to my experts and they would say, "Okay, what he did is good." Or he used he used his
own cell phone and he drove around town and he didn't create the maps and he only used Verizon's signal. Did he use T-Mobile's signal? I don't know what you did. You didn't say what you did. >> I didn't report what I did. I told you don't specify. >> Please let him answer the questions.
>> I told I said in report that I collected data on the Verizon network. >> Did you do anything about T-Mobile? >> I already communicated that I wasn't going to be able to take the T-Mobile data or AT&T table, but I know where all the sites are >> and it's not going to be
a a huge difference between them. And the only difference that I've noticed on any of the sites was down in Westwood. >> Okay. Let me ask you this question. Uh you know we had a town hall meeting in January 20th, right? Did you look at the presentation of the slides of that town hall meeting?
>> I I was not provided for that. >> Okay, that's too bad. Uh because Verizon gave the council three propagation maps, one for each of the carriers. I don't know where they generated those propagation maps, but those propagation
maps showed that Verizon had three red hexagons where they had lousy service. And at that town hall meeting, people here in the audience were screaming their heads off that said, "We have terrible service here. It's a threat to our health, our kids." They went wild about that. And yet residents who live
in those same neighborhoods in the same hexagon areas for Verizon who have T-Mobile in 18 said, "We have great service there." you were specifically tasked to find out what's going on and why Verizon has lousy service and the same and T-Mobile and AT&T have good
service there. >> As I as I said, >> with all due respect, I don't believe we submitted those maps. >> Where did they come from? >> So, the maps that he represented that we submitted at a meeting were at the meeting and I don't believe we I don't believe we produced those maps. >> You know where they come from?
>> Yes, we had them from online. We we got it we got it from the carriers themselves had that the carriers themselves advertis >> please please let's keep >> they were propagations >> they came from one source it didn't didn't say Verizon T-Mo was it said I
don't know if you provided it so >> well well that's what they said and we all we were all here and so you didn't really and you should have looked at those but >> there's no explanation If they're maps, if those are maps that you get off the
internet to say what T-Mobile has coverage and not the the granularity of those maps aren't anywhere near what is required in order to do an analysis on in a onem area. >> Okay. I don't know where they first he gave them. >> Second of all, I've already explained to
you that I told the council I cannot collect T-Mobile and AT&T data. >> Okay? So it was not I I already said I I cannot do that. If you don't want me to do it, that's fine, but I can't do that. But I know where the other sites are. And this
>> Well, if you had if you had the fancy equipment, you could drive around town with some fancy equipment and gather that data from field, right? >> Obviously. >> Yeah. Okay. But he didn't do it, right? >> Don't have it. >> Okay. So where where are we? We don't have the data.
>> I I don't know that you're asking him that. I think that's a point you're trying to >> correct. Okay. >> Okay. >> That is a rhetorical question designed to illustrate. >> So would it be helpful if we had that data? We could do it now before the leaves come on, but the leaves are going to come on in like a couple of weeks
now, especially with this heat wave. So wouldn't it be helpful to do that say in May and then see what the coverage is? And now we have the Rivervale tower that just came on within I don't know a couple of days ago maybe and we could see how that's improved it. How how did
you test Verizon's coverage with respect to the new River tower? >> I have an application that I run on my phone and it collects all the the the pertinent data and it was on the air uh
last week. >> Okay. What is the application you have? >> It's a network cell. >> Okay. And how accurate is it? It's as accurate as as the measurement on the on the phone is. It's using the measurements that the phone uses every
day to make your call and to and to do all its its proper all its uh its functions. >> Okay. And what kind of phone do you have? >> I have a a Samsung. >> What model? >> S22. Okay. >> Does it matter? >> Fine. And is is the $50,000 piece of
equipment more sensitive and more accurate than your your phone in that program? >> Can be. >> Okay. And you didn't use that, right? And and do you know if Verizon have you spoken to Verizon? Are they operating in full power now? >> There are link budgets and there are all
kinds of we can go into RF engineering questions for weeks. >> If you want to particularly go there, >> I would >> uh I don't have time. >> It doesn't make any sense u to do that at this point. Okay. If there's a
particular concern about an AT&T and the the council, I mean, we're talking about a small block. We're talking about Drake that people are saying is significantly better on AT&T. Is it better in all
these other >> you don't get to argue with the witness. So, >> you know, we're not looking at most of the time when you're designing network, you don't look at one neighborhood, one block of thing. You're looking at a
major thing. You're looking at streets. You're looking at how many cars per day. You're looking at uh getting signal into a high school. Don't tell me there's signal in the high school unless AT&T has an installation in the high school. Okay? Because it's a dense building. So
saying AT&T is smoking coverage in the high school unless they have an inbuilding system, I would venture to say that's not true. >> Well, are you are you aware that that the w that people get coverage in the high school for cell phones by enabling the Wi-Fi enable calling? If you're a
teacher, if you're a staff member, but the kids don't get that. Are you aware of that? >> What difference does it make? >> What difference? Because I make cell phone calls and they can receive cell phone calls. >> You can do Wi-Fi calling. It is not as reliable. It doesn't have handoffs from one from the inside to the outside, but
you're saying that students don't get to use that. >> That's right. Because that's a decision by the superintendent and the principal of the school. It's not a function of the technology. >> What about the electrician that comes in and repairs something and he has an accident and he needs to call 911. What does he do? >> He can go into the office and get
permission and access to the code. >> Okay. When he's >> Yeah. When he's in an accident. It's not a universal solution. It's a personal solution. and and my understanding is the council is looking for a universal reliable solution.
>> Right? So if there are isolated gaps in coverage in the town, why can't they fix those isolated areas with small cells in those areas dedicated to fix that problem? But we know >> from what we've heard from residents
here and from those coverage maps, the people who were screaming bloody murder are Verizon customers only. And the people with T-Mobile and AT&T, look, same neighborhoods have fine coverage. >> I think you reversed it. I think you reversed it from there small gap areas
to there's small areas that one carrier is better than another. >> Well, let me let me ask you this. You were the FCC National Broadband. >> I'm really sorry, Mr. Burke. >> This is important. This is very important. >> Mr. Burke, why don't we let everybody
finish talking, including the people who pay you and hire you and when your clients finish talking, even though I think you're here working for them. >> Yes. >> Then you can restart. >> That's fine. >> So, if Mr. Berg's clients would like to
let him do his work that you're paying him for, please let the council hear him. And anybody else who's just talking because they feel like it, please don't. Okay, Mr. Bur, are you
prepared to proceed despite the fact that we didn't hear anything you said in the last two minutes? >> I apologize for the audience. >> Okay, so you're at almost 16 minutes, five times what everyone else was
allowed. Maybe we heard 90% of it. Okay, >> perhaps you want to be focused and effective and if you're making points, please make >> Okay, I will move much faster. The National Broadband Data Act requires every carrier to file twice a year with
the FCC, the regulator, their wireless coverage at everywhere in the country, includ >> I am not a regulatory engineer. There are a lot of filings have to be done >> and the there are two different ways of
looking at when when carriers look at their or provide their coverage. >> The question was very focus. >> It's a focus question. >> If you're doing a national map, you have the points that you take aren't every 30 meters. All right? You're not
doing a a fine fine detailed look into it. You're taking this big broad thing. You're taking a point here, maybe half a mile later, half a mile later. It's not designed, it's not a tool to do detailed design. So, it's not relevant to a
square mile. It's relevant to a county. It's relevant to a state. But a national study is completely different animal than what we're talking about here. >> Well, you don't you don't know what the act requires, correct? You don't know that it requires down to the street
address level. Every carrier has to say what coverage is available, what wireless coverages for outdoor and for in vehicle. You're not aware of that, Mr. Cody Hos. Is that correct? >> No. No, you don't. You're talking to him. Why are you switching? >> Do hold one second. >> Okay. Do you know that? Do you know
that? >> I do not have firsthand knowledge of that, but I know about >> you answered the question. That's it. Are you aware that Verizon under penalty of law for lying certified by an RF engineer employed by Verizon and a
corporate officer has to certify with each filing uh the the accuracy of the information provided for the match map? >> If I'm not familiar with the map, I wouldn't know that. >> Okay. Are you aware that the map for Hillsdale shows that Verizon has 100%
coverage 5G and 4G for invehicle and outdoor coverage? >> Are you aware of that fact? >> No. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> That's all I have. Mr. Pearson, >> you're you're at 18 minutes. Okay. It wasn't just for him. If you have
something for anyone else, >> just a statement. Are you aware that Verizon has certified under penalty of law that it has 100% coverage in Hillsdale? >> Are you cross M? >> Are you cross-examining the lawyer?
>> I'm asking him. Yes, because he's a lawyer for Verizon. And if not Verizon's lawyer, I'll ask their RF engineer who should know that. >> Okay. Someone should be able >> I don't think you could cross-examine the lawyer but you probably could ask
one of their engineers if he is aware of the standard >> he's been testifying as a witness of fact >> I don't think so >> anybody there are you >> anyone at >> has expertise in this acknowledge that
the FCC map that they have filed under penalty law says that Verizon has 100% coverage for 5G and 4G in vehicle and out to our coverage in >> are you aware of that in the town in the
borrow of >> are you aware of that requirement fact please let him answer >> I'm going to answer it that I'm aware of uh the act I'm
generally aware of the requirements I'm not aware of the specific map that he's referring to. I agree with your expert, Mr. Pearson. What we're talking about here is inbuilding coverage throughout Hillsdale on a very micro level and
that's what's relevant to our request under the RFP. Thank you. >> So, you're aware of the act. Are you aware of the act the requirement? >> Me? >> Yeah. >> I'm a structural engineer. So, >> guy behind you, you aware of the requirement? >> I'm unaware of of uh the specifics of
the map. generally. >> Eric, are you aware you're familiar with the FCC national board map >> for aware? >> Have you looked at it for kills bill? >> No. >> Do you think you should if you're giving uh >> I would be certain that I
>> Okay, that would be nice. And it would be nice for you to advise the council what you find that Verizon has reported under penalty of perjury and violations sanctions by the FCC. I I think I think I think we're not here for that purpose. Quite frankly, we're not here to be
threatened with violations of >> I'm not threatening. I'm just saying >> we're trying to provide information. >> If has a map he'd like to present, we would certainly comment on it, but we're not going to hear anybody. So, in the abstract, >> okay,
>> let me go to some other another point. >> Mr. Berg, you're at 21 minutes. Seven times what everyone else. >> I appreciate that. If you have focused, meaningful, direct questions that we can hear the answer to, I think that would
be a really good use of your time. >> The public safety is a major concern. Uh it seems to me that locating a 120 foot cell tower maybe 30 feet from in a
parking lot of the heavily used swim club. uh 30 feet or so from a pedestrian walkway sidewalk and say 40 feet from a heavily driven thoroughfare is pretty
stupid from a public safety standpoint. If the tower falls over uh in a hurricane, in a severe thunderstorm with wind shear uh during the winter, these towers particularly with multi- carriers
on top with these platforms, they develop ice and the ice builds up on it in the snow and then when it melts, these things come down like javelins and can fall easily onto the sidewalk and into the roadway. That's why 99% of
municipalities have fall zone requirements that prohibit any structures from being within the fall zone of the tower so people don't get killed and probably doesn't get damaged within the fall zone. Uh why would
anyone any cell tower company build the tower so close to a thoroughare in a parking lot of a heavily used swim club and a sidewalk? >> Okay, that sounds like a question. >> It is a question. >> Awesome. So that means the sentence ended. >> Yes.
>> Does anyone have an answer? Perhaps a professional. Does anyone have an answer to the question? >> As I specified before, the monopole is designed as per all federal, state, and local guidelines. If you have an issue with that, you take it up and down, but
that's what we're required to design it to. And I have all confident in my work going forward. >> That That's nice. Now, do cell towers collapse? >> I I can't take one out specifically. I'm sure they >> you've never heard on the news that they >> I'm sure one has. I I can't site one now.
>> Okay. So, you haven't read the news? Uh there was one in Alaska in February and I think it was Homer, Alaska that went down with a wind gust of like 85 ft. You didn't see that? >> Homer, Alaska was not last year. >> No, no, this year. This year. >> That was actually a st
>> Palmer Alaska. I'm sorry. Palmer, Alaska. Oh, you knew about it. Very good. >> Lis about 20 years ago. >> No, the Palmer was this year. We could talk about that for a while. Someone could Google it. >> Are you? >> But it is 10:15. >> Okay, fine. Let me continue. Do cell towers burn down sometimes?
>> Do cell towers sometimes burn down? It's a yes or no question. >> Yes. >> Okay. And does ice fall off of cell towers? >> Yes. >> Okay. And is there any protection here to prevent that from a 120 foot tower when we got four carriers say on the
tower with these mass platforms going on there? How are you going to prevent the ice from falling down there if there's a 80 mph wind like we had during the blizzard the other week? >> We have a canopy over >> a canopy. And is that canopy? What kind of canopy? What's made of? >> Metal.
>> Metal. Okay. And how does what about the ice that falls that builds up on the canopy? Where does that go when it starts melting? >> It drains off to the sides of the ground. >> It drains or does it shield out fall like like a javelin like I've seen on videos. Have you ever seen videos like
that? >> When when ice melts, it turns into state and then it drips off. >> That's not what I've seen on the videos. Now, let me ask you this question. Uh Mr. Gdioso said, "These towers collapse upon themselves." How is that possible? You're a structural engineer. >> We don't design the tower glass. We
design. >> What do you mean you don't design it to collapse? They collapse. They fall. So, he says they collapse on themselves. What did you mean, Mr. Gioski? >> I I think I explained that earlier. They the metal deflects, bends over. But that's not collapsing on itself. You said it collapsed on itself.
>> If I can't answer the question, then I'm not going to really >> Don't bother. Okay. Oh, let me I'll ask question. How does it collapse on itself? Like you said, >> so again, I think you have to give me an example of a time one collapsed and then I could tell you how it collapses. >> No, I'm asking you theoretically. You
said if it collapses, it collapse upon itself. How does it do that? How is that physically possible? >> I believe you meant folds, correct? rather than compression. >> Correct. >> So you're not talking about the twin towers a compression collapsing upon
itself. You are talking about a folding >> in theory. >> Yes. Did I accurately state what you said in theory? >> Correct. >> Awesome. Okay. Now in theory this 120 foot tower with four levels of heavy
platforms on top. In theory, when it collapses like that, folding over, how far is it going to collapse? >> In theory, it's not going to fall. >> Okay. When it in theory, when it when it actually does collapse, how far is it going to go? And where's it going to fall? >> In theory, it's not actually
>> Okay. when it does because you admitted that it does. >> Were it were it to fall were it to collapse in the manner you suggest via the folding process, where would the upper half go?
>> Depends how the tower was designed. >> Okay. Well, how is this tower going to be designed then? >> We haven't gotten to this. >> Okay. So, if it's going to be in a parking lot and if it goes, we don't know where it's going to go. And God bless these people who might be there might be walking in the street with cars driving down the street or the people in
the parking lot. Right. We'll we'll figure that out later. Okay. Uh >> can I ask you one question? >> No. It doesn't work that way. >> We've got four more minutes. Mr. Bur for half an hour. >> The burrow owns two lots parallel to the
high school campus. Uh there was nothing that I saw that suggested that they were restricted any way and they were about 10 acres or something. It looked like a very nice parallel lot. >> I believe that is subject to verification. >> Okay. Well, he seemed very convinced
that it was under green, >> but we are going to verify anyway. >> Thank you. I appreciate that because that looked like a wonderful site for >> Excellent. That's why verification is going to happen. >> That's good. Now, let me ask you this question. Uh the generators, each of these collocators, including Verizon's
going to have a generator there. Now, >> I didn't say that. >> No. I'm only testifying on behalf of Verizon. >> Okay. Verizon's gonna have a generator, right? A backup generator. >> That's correct. >> And will it be is it possibly it'll be diesel? >> Possible. Yeah. >> Okay. Now, if it's a diesel, uh it's
what? A 50ky generator? >> KW. >> KW. Uh funny. Uh if it's diesel, it's usually what about a 200 250 gallon uh fuel tank.
>> Plus, minus. Okay. And where is the fuel tank? >> Underneath it. >> Okay. And this tower is about what? 50 feet from the brook. >> A little more than that. >> 60 ft. >> Uh, a little more than that. >> 70 ft.
>> The compound's 65 ft long. >> Okay. So, how far from the one stop? Yes. >> 150 ft. About not. If it's 150 feet, what happens if there's a fuel spill when you're trying to refill uh the tank and you get 300
gallons of diesel pouring into the stream? Uh what happens then? >> I can't speak on behalf of who the tank carrier is, but the tank itself does have a triar system in it where if there is a leak within the tank or inside the generator, it is called.
>> Okay. What if the guy >> there are sensors that are remotely monitored >> and what if the guy who's who's filling the tank uh goes have a coffee smoke and he's not careful and >> are we a for
a reason for this because Verizon are you aware that Verizon in January the uh district attorneys from like seven counties in uh in California fined Verizon $7.6 $6 million for violating the storage requirements and the
permanent requirements for filling for monitoring hazardous waste materials and particular with these diesel uh generators in California for since 2019. Are you witness Troy? You >> are.
>> I'm aware that there was a settlement, but I'm fairly confident California regulations do not apply in New Jersey with the New Jersey regulations on all things. >> But the conduct that they talked about was hundreds and hundreds of violations of these very issues that I'm talking
about here for hundreds of cell towers in California. So, that's something that the council should be concerned about when this is in a riparian zone right next to a a creek or a stream. Uh, and who's going to pay for that? You're the land owner, so you're liable as much as
they are if you're polluting the stream. Uh, one more thing, uh, you know, the the swim club site, uh, is one of the few sites in town that's not, you know, protected forever. and you got a 30 some
odd year lease here. God forbid say the uh machinery for the filtration for the pool uh it's such an old it's an old facility. What if it goes down and you can't get up to code and you have to close down the facility? Hopefully never happens, but what if it happens and you
have to redevelop the site? If they get you're now at 30 minutes, this is my last question. >> Well, then make make the question. >> Ask the question. If you got a 35 a year lease, what are you gonna do if you're tied up with Verizon? Is Verizon gonna let you walk away? Uh, are they gonna
walk away? >> Question directed to >> Okay, the question is to Verizon, are you if if they want to redevelop the site sometime during your lease, are you going to let them >> are you going to take the power down and go away or you going to hold them to the lease and tie up this property for 35
years or 30 years, whatever the lease term is? if you're not. >> Yeah, I can't predict the future, so I I I can't really give you an answer on such speculation. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. >> Okay. Uh that ends our public discussion. Um we've done our public
comments. Um one more >> make quick. I know. >> Uh true men 121 Windom Road. Um I presume these towers are not standalone. They have feeder lines, fiber, whatever. or is it where is it over the air?
>> I mean through the towers but like where does the information come in and go out? >> The coax or fiber lines that feed the antennas. >> Okay. So uh in that point how much uh how much infrastructure goes like after or during installation does it take like
how much do we have to run? Do you have to rip up roads? Is there >> no once the uh site is initially built it brings in fiber and power for all carriers. >> Okay. Uh and second question is how long do you expect to the construction to take
once if it was >> the total estimating be 36 months in a year. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Um we're now closing the discussion here. Um and we're going to move on to um council comments.
And uh why don't we start at the far end? We've gone the other way this time. Councilman Ruka, would you like to start with your commentary? I I it's 10:30. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> The clock may say 9:25, but we know what it really >> I know you didn't set the clock. >> What? >> Yeah. I just want We had a finance
committee meeting uh earlier this week just for benefit of the council. I'll eliminate all the other stuff, but it just confirmed the likelihood that the overall municipal and library uh property tax increase for this year's budget remains at somewhere between five and 5.5%.
there are some uncertainties as to the size uh and they're going to be resolved in the next week or so. And the last thing I want to say is on a personal note, um I informed the Republican party several weeks ago that I will not be seeking to run in the election of 2026 for council.
You know, the book of Ecclesiastes says there is a time uh to everything. There is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven. For almost 51 years, I've been involved in one way or another, serving the public, either with the Federal Reserve Bank or for the last 12 years here at the Hillsdale Council as mayor, councilman, and council
president. The time for a new purpose under heaven for me, I think, is arriving. Uh there's a Viking River Cruise commercial that plays out constantly on TV that stresses there is only one thing uh you can't get enough of, and that is time. And with my 74th
birthday approaching, that reality weighs on my mind. My wife and I want to do some spend time traveling while we are still physically able. We want to enjoy our grandchildren, visit relatives, and have the flexibility to explore other communities where we might want to live and escape the high tax
potential of living in New Jersey. Uh, with these as my goals for the moment, it would not be appropriate for me to seek re-election in 2026. I I'll have more to say about this as my term comes to a conclusion, but until then, I can expect to continue to uphold my oath to the people of Hillsdale and serve them
to the best of my ability. Thank you VERY YEAH, Councilwoman Mach. >> I have no comments. I'll save it for next week. >> Councilman Kleti, >> I just want to thank the public and the professionals uh for this evening. Thank you, >> Council President.
>> Thank you to Glenn um Peter Verizon and the residents for attending tonight and also Mayor Council for holding the information sessions. I think it was a good contribution to the process. >> Likewise, thank you to everybody and I reserve comments for next meeting.
>> Um I want to thank all the residents for coming out. I want to thank represent Verizon Pearson. Thank you. Uh thank you for coming out. And if if it wasn't for everybody being so involved in this, we might not have had a town hall. We might have not um had a lot of these extra,
you know, sessions here. I've definitely learned a lot. So, I really appreciate um the public being involved with this and uh I look forward to continuing the discussion. >> Thank you. And I know I should have gone first on council comments, but uh I'm I'm going to refrain as well. Thank you
everyone from all positions for coming here tonight. Thank you professionals for being here and um I hope we can all continue to do this in a productive manner. Um we are adjourned until March. >> Can we have a motion to adjourn? >> Motion second in
>> favor. We are adjourned until one week from tonight at uh 7 p.m. Thank you. All right.