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I link we have an opening statement please yes you may Township of Howell Zoning Board of adjustment meeting Monday February 10th 2025 I hereby declare this meeting of the Howell Township zoning board to be
open adequate notice hav been given pursu to the New Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on January 2nd 2025 a copy of said notice was emailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on
January 2nd 2025 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on January 2nd 2025 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board
in the Howell Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 Howell Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits which
are at the front and rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on Howell Township TV
77 thank you e could we have a roll call please Mr burillo here Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr odonnell here Mr Orosco has been excused Mr Ryan present miss
scotson here Mr karukas here and chairman merens here could I ask everybody to please raise R for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and
to the stands one nation God indivisible liy and justice for all okay Andy can we swear in the professionals you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing help you got I do please State your names for the record Charles
conliff Jennifer beam jry spirro your professionals are sworn Mr chairman okay thank you Charlie first order of business is approval of minutes from January 27th 2025 regular meeting eligible voters burillo caner karacus
Odon Hughes Mertens Orosco Ryan and scotson do I have a motion I'll make a motion second by an Marie roll call hold on an Marie fine I'm sorry and I'm s who
was the motion again well no because sometimes you're listed but you can't vote oh I I'm so joking yeah it's fine yeah so only seven can vote but I need to know who made the motion thank
you so Mr burillo yes Mr cancer yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Ryan Yes m scotson yes and chairman Ms yes motion carries thank you
uh do we have any vouchers no vouchers this evening correspondence yes first of all case number ba1 1915a for squankum fire company which is on tonight's agenda has to be rescheduled to March the 10th 2025 they
had an issue with their notice okay uh we don't have to make an announcement because they being rescheduled correct correct uh and then I have a letter from Sal Al Fury for case number ba 2402 zarelli Enterprises
he asked that they be carried to April 7th 2025 without further notice and he granted the board an extension of time to April 30th 2025 okay so you need to make an announcement on that one
okay okay anybody here for case number ba 2402 zarelli enterprise LLC this application is going to be carried to April 7th 2025 without further notice the board was granted an
extension to April 30th 2025 okay and the last item of Correspondence was also from salal fury it's regarding case number 246 the Turkish American application he ask that that be carried to February
24th 2025 without further notice and grants it in extension through February 28th 2025 okay anybody here for case number ba 24-6 Turkish American religious
Foundation Incorporated this application will be carried to February 24th 2025 without further notice and the board was a grant an extension of time to February 28th 2025 and that's all I have okay
now tonight um we were going to hear Oak glan is scheduled for the second on the application but because we are on a already hearing the case of the um Third Avenue Associates we're going to go with that one first
tonight so uh we will get to that first so the attorneys for that I will read the uh notice on this as well case number da 24-3 Third Avenue Associates and corporate type of use is of variance and
preliminary and final major site plan the application of Third Avenue Associates Incorporated is an applicant and United Fellowship Baptist Church as owners seeking use variant and preliminary and final major site plan reliev to develop the current vacant
property into a cemetery on premise known as block 219 lot 13 Adelphia Farmingdale Road this application was partially heard on July 8th 2024 when it was carried to August 26
2024 with no further notice on August 26 2024 this application was carried to September 23rd 2024 on September 23rd 2024 this application was partially heard and carried to November I'm sorry
December 9th 2024 expiration is February 10th 2025 the ELO voters are Billo caner Hughes Mertens odono Orosco scotson and Ryan do we have the attorneys
yes okay John you switched on me yeah sorry oh you want me to go to that okay Mr Jackson you want to start thank you yes uh good evening um couple developments uh since the last uh time
we were here um one of them is that Dr stankin uh who's here again this evening uh met with the environmental commission they had an in-person meeting and uh they spent some time they went over uh some of the uh questions about uh
environmental I don't believe the commission gave any kind of objection or report uh Dr stanking can testify he believed that the meeting uh went very well I think they were satisfied with the uh information that Dr stankin gave them and I don't think they have any uh
concerns which I respectfully submit is pretty significant to this case so we did I think it was requested at the last hearing that we go and meet with them we did and I'm here to report that uh we think it went well okay Eileen did we receive a letter from the environmental no I never okay
thank you and um also um we we we have a little bit of a uh um a difference um we we have been in contact uh to get our environmental permit from the D and uh we may have to
scale back uh the the the lines of uh you know a little bit and and reduce the uh application by 500 Graves uh we're still uh dealing with the D on that issue Mr Rob Civ can give uh further information uh we ask that the Board
address the use variants and in and as uh We've submitted keep in mind we may be coming back to reduce it a little bit in scale because that's where the D is at right now and it has to do with uh you know where where the wetlands are that kind of thing uh they they do soil borings and based on that they make the
determination of where the edges of the wetlands are we can uh still uh negotiate or address that with them we may but it looks like per where they're at right now well we're still working on it but we might have a slightly smaller application however we can still do it
um so anyway I just want to alert the board to that that development okay and uh we we have this evening uh an additional expert Mr John Ray um who is here to give testimony about traffic at the last uh couple of hearings I believe the board and members of the public
raised issue about traffic um we believed it was self-explanatory that a cemetery is one of the lowest traffic generators that there is um because it has become an issue uh we uh would like to bring forward Mr John Ray licensed civil engineer uh to give his
brief assessment and testimony regarding the impact that this site will have on traffic when fully developed so and then he'll be around in case there's questions from the public he will okay he will okay you know I I would just request and again uh defer to you uh
Frank ET all our expert here and uh the the audience was in the process of questioning him and uh we' respectfully request that he be allowed to finish his testimony so he can go back up to New Hampshire and take care of his family
and we just I'm sorry to interrupt we just put our like appearances on the record who you're representing I know you were here before but okay I mean it was like months ago right okay yeah it was back in September yeah good evening Edward banano Pringle
Quinn anzano on behalf of the objectors in this case and uh you know appearing on behalf of them and just to reiterate what I said uh Mr getaw was here he was wrapping it up and uh we finished I think maybe Council has more questions
on Cross but I think we gotten through directing cross and uh we were starting to take and actually we take a number of questions from people in the audience so we'd ask that we just continue with Mr getall and and if that's okay scheduling from your perspective then he could just
go okay then uh Andy uh who should go first in your well I think when you left off I wasn't here that night but I believe that's what Mr Bano is saying is true right yeah so I would continue with that and we have no objection to that okay that' be great okay thank you thank
you you can plug in then John we have so we'll need to swear them in and then get his credentials on the record well he' been qualified okay I'm sorry my apologies I think he's right you would you'd been pre you're still under
o sir okay okay I'm sorry okay well he had further testimony okay you said he had further testimony right I just had I had one file of question but I think it was really we brought him back primarily to
yeah I just want to make sure if there's any questions that we uh you have or any our professionals before we open the public just morning anybody professionals have any further questions okay uh we're going to open up
this to public and these will be mostly for questions you'll have time afterwards to make comments so I will'll open upy I think we need to specify that was based on his
initial testimony yes at that time met okay and his testim made was in regard to the amount of decay of the body in the ground and the effect of the groundwater Z specifically on that yes great okay so
we have I'm starting I mean this was in September we're now in February maybe for like there should be some summary of yeah well that's that's why I was that was where I was trying to get and if I may I can ask uh Mr Gall to give
actually if if there's no objection just give a brief overview of his qualifications again and then a summary of uh his testimony since as Mr bear indicated it's been whatever five months six months okay Mr Jackson Mr chairman of course it's it's the board's hearing
and as a chairman you have a lot of discretion to conduct the hearing as you deem appropriate um however um I think having this witness restate his case puts my client at a distinct disadvantage because all of my clients testified one meeting and two meetings
ago so what it does is it puts his prior testimony gives a particular emphasis puts it right in the Forefront and and it's all what the objetives were um I think it was mainly in accord with my client but I I think that's just a little unfair to my client to have the uh the the obor's expert restate their
testimony as a refresher to start the whole thing off when we don't have that same opportunity so um okay well I'm not gonna make a bigger deal out of it than that I'll abide by your discretion of course so if you know we like to have the
opportunity just to for Mr gel just to okay um what I'm suggesting because there are people here tonight that may not have been there even though they could have watched the video just do a quick summary and then we're not getting too far into a
testimony so go ahead um my name is Frank gel I'm a hydrogeologist um with Weston and Samson um I've have over 40 years of experience working primarily in the Northeast New
Jersey and New York especially um I've uh my areas have expertise or are ground I don't think they need to know your qualifications again I think you could just summarize testimony yeah that's fine I think all I was uh I discussed had to do with um the fact that a lot of
natural burials are now being looked at relative to impacts on groundwater quality um especially over say the last 10 years both in the Northeast as well as uh in Europe and other parts of the world and that there has been expressed
concern about um contaminant uh contamin ation of groundwater related to these types of cemeteries I testified about some of the work that I've done elsewhere in cemeteries and in New Jersey uh with respect to groundwater flow groundwater
contamination uh the aquafer here is a unconsolidated um coastal plain sand with layers of silts and Clay groundwater flow Direction based on at least what I've looked at appears to be from the cemetery towards the um bog
Marsh Brook um any type anything that enters the groundwater from that area uh will eventually make its way to that Brook uh and into the aquifer underneath it uh regarding groundwater Supply in the area I I've made mention the fact that at
least the ones that I'm aware of appear to be on the far side of the cemetery however just because they're up gradient doesn't mean that when the wells pump that they may not somehow be impacted by the groundwater from the cemetery and really what it comes down to is um a
very limited amount of information that is site specific regarding the hydrogeology and so conclusions regarding that have to be take with a certain grain of salt because they're not based on site specific information they're being based on generic
information associated with that aquifer in the area okay thank you very much so at this time I'd like to have a motion to go to open the public motion to open the public and Mar second it second by Mike roll call or all do all in favor
okay okay iink could you uh statement for the public at this time the Chairman's open the hearing up for members of the public please come up one at a time to the podium give your name and address and you can ask questions of the expert this for questions of the
professional yes it's questions we can make comments yes comments no comments so I want to get comment please please don't shout from the audience wait till you come up um I'm just really familiar with the
I need your name my name is Jeffrey Buck um I was at the first meeting so I signed in I mean I sworn in at that time okay so you're still on your house okay thank you okay um I just had uh maybe it's not questions I should be up here for it's uh knowledge about the
properties that are um adjacent to this proposed cemetery and the conditions the uh water runoff conditions and uh and what happens when we get a severe storm
um am I up here at the right time to talk about Yeah well yeah because it's really not turning into a question right now yeah so I mean under comments you can come up and them all the information that you have I would do it then thank you anybody else has a question for this
witness please come up if you do my name is Michael getmanov I'm a 343 squa from yellowbrook uh did you testify or no I didn't sir do you swear the testimon give it be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the yes I do could you just spell your last name for me
please G is in George e t m an o v is in Victor thank you okay uh whether this is a comment or a question it's a bit of both um I don't know if you're going to want me to come back for this okay we'll try the
question first and then we can go from there questions concerning um Marbach Brook is it's in the middle of Wetland right the the brook itself runs directly through the property
there's a category one Waterway act for uh you know water quality and that requires by law a 300t buffer zone from the creek so that's going to be a 600 foot Swatch Through This Land Is there going to be room
after that I I I I heard you Ser say that was going to be a um adjustments to the the variants or I I'm assuming I mean that was something you said about maybe you would have to cut it back a little yeah but Mr I procedurally I
don't know if this is questions for everybody but Mr shiv is certainly the one who can address that okay well I don't know if this is for this witness or is it for this witness because we got to if that's not the case then I would suggest coming back up well well yeah I I guess we could ask this witness did he
consider the the Brooke and whether that impacted his opinion at all I mean General right I mean I can bring this back up but I also have well water myself and I'm situated between Marsh Bach Brook and the Manasquan Road okay but my question is is this witness going
to be have any bearing on your question or is it going to be a general question for somebody else uh I guess he'd have to determine that okay we'll ask the question then we'll have the uh
witness go ahead all right yeah as I am situated between Marsh roock Brook and uh the M River there and have well excuse me could you just make sure you speak into the mic because I have to be able thank you um so what is the likelihood that my well is going to be
impacted from that or really depends on the location without some sort of a map and idea of a scale I really can't say but there's always the potential if you are down gradient down down slope of the cemetery
that groundwater that is originating at that property is groundwater that could contribute to your well but it really depends on the location without a map I I can't say more than that okay I have a general idea of where you're talking
about and it sounds like you would be down gradient yeah I am so and then the question comes down to what actually is in the groundwater what clean or other groundwater it mixes with you know to say but if you're downg grading and
you're close enough there is potential would that variant that I spoke of the uh the buffer zone like the 300 feet on the other side of it would that have any effect on that I mean or would it happen regardless believe the buffer zone is really more a control on what they do
it's more of a focus on protecting that stream in the raran corridor it's not a focus on the groundwater quality as it pertains to say it's still going to affect the groundwater something goes in the water on the property it's going to affect
whether it's an adverse effect or not it really depends on a lot of other factors but it's you know if I drop something here and it makes its way into the water it's going to mix with it beyond that without more specifics it's kind of hard for me to say we have the specific all
right okay sorry so you'll come back and we can you can ask further comments for this okay thank you thank you thank you sir anybody else one more good evening everybody my name is uh Tom Klein I've
already been previously sworn in I realize I'm still under oath uh so I just have one question you were speaking about aquafers and obviously you know the penetration into that aquer right and we as you previously testified not knowing which kind of
effect it's going to to have on it it will get into the groundwater in the aquifer eventually at some point correct correct anything that enters the groundwater or the the subsurface at that location if it makes its way into
the saturated zone is by definition affecting the groundwater thank you and that aquifer that we're talking about that is underneath right the cemetery that would be the same aquifer that would be feeding the wells of these families is that correct that's the I
believe it's the lower Kirkwood kohany and so as long as those Wells are say completed within anywhere from 50 to 100 feet that's the same aquifer that they would be drawing their water out of thank you very much okay thank you looks
like good evening hello Nancy donio 79 B and way uh I have not been sworn in do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole choose nothing choose I do did you just spell your last name d o n i o
Nancy um I just have a question if you could elaborate you said you spoke previously unfortunately I wasn't here for that meeting and I didn't watch it um you spoke previously about contaminants getting into the water from other or their concerns about contaminants can you on what type of
contaminants well we had there was another expert who also had testified primarily based on U you know body degradation primarily with respect to things like bacteria and viruses and so forth but there are also other I hate to use the term
contaminants but there are constituents in in the body that don't go through the same process as far as being absorbed in the soil they actually will over time make their way into the groundwater things such as um nitrate sodium uh
phosphorus there you know and then of course you also have the the situation with respect to if there are bodies that people have going to say through chemotherapy medications and so forth any of those types of compounds could make their way into the groundwater also
okay so is it not true that the state of New J the state of New York Health Department does in fact test their waterways and their Wastewater for polio they also test it for meas and they also test it for Co yes they do
okay and all of those can through this Avenue find their way into the water system that is not just feeding Wells but is also feeding the Manasquan Reservoir which is the drinking water for quite a large population in Mammoth County they can get into the groundwater on the property in terms of their fate
and transport from that point the further they have to go the less of the impact but it also depends on the amount of concentration so from a theoretical standpoint or conceptual standpoint if it gets in the groundwater it's going to follow the groundwater flow Direction
and then what happens as it moves away from the site it may mix with clean water it may mix with other impacted water so it's hard to say you know when you start getting further away okay so now let's say there is another covid type of an exposure we have an enormous
amount of population that needs to be buried at that site it does in fact impact the drinking water now we're adding in chemicals to counteract the drinking water and it seems to me that all we're doing is chemicalize and chemicalize and chemicalize and that's something that I have very serious
concerns about as a woman I have numerous friends in my neighborhood who have had breast cancer we don't need more chemicals in our water we need less so please consider that thank you very much can I ask a follow up question yeah
sure thank you uh sir you mentioned that um the the you call them contaminants in the body these aren't contaminants necessarily right they're compound compound but when they actually wind up in the groundwater they actually some of them are actually classified as
contaminants they have an MCL but um items like nitrate that's a natural naturally occurring thing not necessarily what about sodium not necessarily nitrate is uh in fertilizer right it is somebody fertilizes their lawn that goes into the groundwater as
well yes it does the same thing in a decomposing body depends on what the concentration is same thing with sodium sodium gets on the salt right yes it does um they put salt all over the roads go out there you'll crunch walking out to your car that's salt right yes it is same thing
do you think one shovel of salt that they throw on the front steps in front of the H Township municipal complex comes close to the amount of salt in the human body when it decomposes I didn't really give you an opinion one way or the other if I did thought you think well you refer to it as a contaminant
when it comes out of a decomposing body correct if it's something that doesn't naturally occur in the groundwater okay at a particular location but it's introduced then it gets classified as a contaminant now if you want to talk about it originating in
the human body okay when it's in the human body yes it's a it's a constituent it's a compound it's when it leaves that human body and it enters the groundwater and it wasn't there before it's a contaminant so your concern is that the nitrates and the sodium and the
phosphorus phosphorus is another thing that's in dishwasher detergent correct it is it's in laundry detergent yep when you wash your car phosphorus is part of that yep so these are all items that people routinely use and when they wash their car it goes into the storm drain
correct maybe some people's does I don't know depends on where they wash it well that if you wash your car if you wash your boat if you um put salt on for your La alwn you put fertilizer on your that makes its way into the storm the storm drain right and there's a reason why all
those compounds yes or no does that make its way into the storm drain typically it could it could it could y so let's say it rains right and the rain takes some of those contaminants into the uh water system that goes right into the rivers right goes right into the streams and rivers that's where uh storm water
management goes doesn't necessarily if it goes into the ground it goes into the groundwater all right and your but your concern was that if this contamination nitrate sodium and phosphates makes its way into the groundwater you said that that could ultimately find its way into
the uh into the Waterway and I think that's what your concern was it could it could but it does when it's on the front steps of the H Municipal complex correct I'm I'm not really familiar with the storm water here as far as where it goes but if it goes into a storm drain goes
into some sort of a management uh facility you mentioned chemical medical compounds and they could make their way into the waterwood right when when someone is under chemotherapy or they have uh some kind of medical treatment you've never done any studies about the decomposition or uh whether that can
migrate from a human body into groundwater have you no I'm actually involved in reviewing other people's studies on that that's no I hav't sample the cemetery Mr chairman I think this goes a little beyond the one question I I just have one well this is cross examin based on the questions that were
raised his testimony in response to the questioning was oh this can go into the ground war I think that needs to be explored because it's not that simple so with all due respect I'd like to make the record um I I just have one more question okay one more because it it is public thank you okay um sir you're
familiar with uh Evergreen Cemetery correct yes and uh that's a much larger Cemetery than my client proposes I've been over there in terms of size I don't know and uh that's been there for many years years that's my understanding yes um have you studied any of the waterways
Wells or Downstream uh features Associated Downstream of that Cemetery to see if your theories um bear out no I have not but that's also why I made the recommendations for putting in observation and honor to Wells that's all I have thank you for right now okay
I if I may uh I'd like to do a redirect here and I think I know it was the public session but uh there was a cross-examination I like people able to do a redirect close the okay yeah let's close it we're going to close the public and then you
can do a redirect okay quickly okay hold on one more I just wanted to clarify my questions weren't necessarily about naturally occurring contaminants they're more specifically about viruses and
bacterials okay because those you can actually test New York State tests their water regularly for polio is this a question right it's not a question but it's it is a clarification okay it's do noted
question it's not testimony so it is all right I think so just as a clarification thank you we have one more question any more questions okay good evening chairman members of
the zoning board I just had a couple questions for uh were you swor Mar do you spr the test it be the truth old truth nothing but the truth so yes my name is Mark PR2 Castle Court uh just had a couple questions for uh I'm sorry sir please spell your W name paresi p a
r i s i Mark M A R C thank you and you're Mr Jackson representing the applicant I am all right is it okay if I ask you questions on behalf of app think this is for this just for this just the witness witness yes yeah okay all right
then I'll I'll come back okay thank you for this part of the question have a second all in favor okay just a couple of redirect questions if I may Mr gel you were talking about uh
mentioned contaminants uh decomposing the decomposing body contaminants from the decomposing bodies getting into uh groundwater getting into the aquifer uh you're not just talking about uh you
know sodium and uh and nitrogen you're also talking about chemicals in the body meaning medicines various types of medicines right correct what are some of the medicines that you be could you explain more uh about the medicines in the body that uh would be released from
the body when the body is decomposing well there different types of pharmaceuticals that people may be taking for health reasons um any of those obviously are artificial so if they get into the groundwater they're going to continue I mean as an example caffeine is commonly being found in
groundwater okay I'm not going to call that a medicine but a lot of people drink coffee and they find it in groundwater they find it in Springs depending on where they're being discharged and so forth so I'll just put that one out there it's just an example there's something else there's a
compound called uh and I don't know off the top of my head the acronym but posa oh yes something that's being regulated now by the EPA you tell us about that and about the potential for that being in a human body and getting uh released from the body when the body is
decomposing well there are six compounds regulated currently uh there's actually part of a family of about 3,000 they're fluorinated uh fluorocarbons that uh uh were made for things like fire retardation um a f which is anybody
who's in a fire department they use it as a foam to put fires out and so forth these compounds are recalcitrant when they get into the groundwater they don't break up um they primarily are dealt with uh either absorbing to um they get far enough away absorbing to like
naturally curring organic carbon uh they get diluted and so forth but they are regulated um standards for those are down around 10 parts per trillion um some of these other things we're talking about are regulated to parts per million so it's uh they're
obviously of a of a serious concern um they're showing up in Wastewater they show up in streams they're very ubiquitous because they're so commonly used with just about everything and they get absorbed by the body and they can stay in the body from days to weeks to
years um so that is another compound and would uh the Posas but those compounds uh would they increase over time in the body I guess it's called yurification so that you'd have a greater concentration that could be
released from the body when it's decomposing I believe the studies now show that they do over time if you were just if someone was able to stop but they're so common in so many things that we use and eat and drank that the chances of you know weaning away from
them are are pretty slim um but if you were not if you were not exposed to them they will over time actually Purge out of the body and a question was asked by Council about the Evergreen
Cemetery uh up the up the road uh you haven't studied that right no and is your understanding that the vaults are the uh graves are vaulted at that Cemetery that's my understanding it's more of a conventional Cemetery where
they have you know the coffins go in vaults yeah okay I have no further questions okay couple follow-ups based on that if I may yeah real quick the uh you used the word uh what what were these compounds called again I didn't quite get the letters he FAS it's a
family of compound FAS compounds you use the term iniquitous right that means everywhere they find them everywhere yes and you said they're in the food we eat yep and they could get in the ground if somebody had them in their body and they were buried if they were able to uh come in contact
with the groundwater yes and you gave uh so many parts per million show up in Wastewater you you said standards you didn't indicate what the standards were what the where it was from but you just said standards uh you know call for less than 10 parts per million but you also said that they were everywhere parts per
trillion per trillion so C can you uh give any statistical data as to what kind of an impact in a percentage basis uh let's say there were 100 bodies that had these FAS is in the ground and they contaminated over the course of a hundred years since these compounds are
everywhere how much would it raise it in in the parts per trillion well unfortunately the research on the P compounds only started about 2014 2015 but they in use they've been in use since World War II and so over time now all the studies are starting to start to
look at them because they are finding them everywhere so so this board in your view should deny a religious Cemetery the ability to allow uh people of a certain religious background to have a a ceremonial burial because uh of uh
compounds that are in everything Everybody Eats that are everywhere that are ubiquitous might get into the groundwater and could have an impact uh in an in an amount that you can't Define Downstream I don't think I made any recommendation to denying the application all I'm doing is stating
exactly what's out there and what research currently shows and you know it could be whether or not uh septic system it could be a cemetery all I'm saying is these compounds are showing up everywhere and they might even already
be on the property the the the last thing you were questioned about a vault right a burial Vault versus just in the ground yes you agree that Burial Vaults are going to fill up with water and everything's going to seep out of a burial vault in time no matter what not necessarily the
concrete lasts forever it's above the water table you know that those uh Burial Vaults are uh waterproof usually there's a seal on them usually okay all right thank you I have nothing further okay so uh Mr
get yes okay great Mr chair Mr chair can I just ask Mr a clarifying question go ahead Charlie so I think the applicant's professional or expert uh gave some testimony regarding equating a certain amount of the burial sites to like a septic system right and a septic system
traditionally in state of New Jersey there's usually a separation requirement to seasonal ey water table and my understanding of it is it's to provide a filtering aspect of through the soil Meed before it hits the groundwater um you know so say in an instance where you didn't have that separation and this you
know uh contaminates say is introduced right directly into the groundwater does the aquafer continue to filter the soils as a hydrologist do does it so what happens if you're above the water table the groundwater surface you pretty much have a vertical typ migration a little bit of Al spread but because it's not in
a saturated condition a lot of the microbes that actually occur in the soil can do what they do and you get a filtering process once you go into the water into the groundwater some of those processes still take place but then what also takes place is groundwater moves so
whereas it's kind of taking its time going through the soil column on its way down to the groundwater if there's a gradient and the groundwater is moving away the process doesn't have the same chance it doesn't take go doesn't go at the same slow rate as it does because
the groundwater is moving it along so there may be filtering even though it's in the ground water but it may just not be as effective as if it was in the unsaturated zone right and there's a lot of factors that come into play things like you know what's a total organic carbon that's down in the aqua for materials is it a silt is it a sand is
it a clay and so forth so and then um you know I think both you and the applicants uh expert um did some review of outside studies and overseas and things like that um the type of natural
burial that's not something that's strictly um unique to one culture or religious um you know uh group correct no it's not okay that's all I have okay
thank you appreciate you stopping in again thank you safe trip thank you okay do you have any further witness Mr Jackson you had bring up a few more people yes thank you I going to have Mr
Ray come forward by a traffic analysis Mr Ray you already are on sworn in and on okay I'm sorry my bad you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the I do state your name for the record expell
your last John Ray R EA U Mr Ray could you give the board uh your credentials and background uh in the field of engineering and traffic uh I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey my field of specialty is traffic engineering I have
a total now of 50 years experience in the traffic engineering field the last 40 of which have been doing consulting work here in the state of New Jersey I've appeared before many planning and zoning boards throughout the state including this board but there are some new members so that's the short version
okay we accept your qualifications thank you thank you uh Mr Ray uh there's there's been some question about the the traffic impact of a cemetery such as uh our client proposes um can you just advise the board your assessment analysis what kind of traffic will be
generated how's it compareed to other uses and with the Chairman's permission I'd just like him to uh explain a narrative form as if you were just telling the board okay well first off it's quite unusual for for me to be called upon to do a traffic study or testimony regarding the traffic impact
of a cemetery for reasons which I think we all basically understand as a matter of fact in the last 40 years I went back and I looked through my job list and only three times was I asked to do a traffic study in 40 years for a cemetery one was a expansion of a cemetery in
Hell another one was for an expansion of a cemetery in West Long Branch and the third study was for a new Cemetery that the dicese of Trenton was proposing in Hamilton Township so it's very unusual for me to talk about the traffic impact from a cemetery but basically The
Institute of Transportation Engineers which is our professional organization which compiles traffic data from all different land uses and publishes that data so that we can do traffic impact studies you know looking through the it data uh a cemetery of little over 10 if
I'm not mistaken 10 square um 10,000 square feet what's the 10 10 acres excuse me 10.25 Acres so we use the acreage of the cemetery in order to determine how much traffic it's going to generate the cemetery of this size when it's built
out will generate approximately five trips that are coincident with the peak hours on Adelphia Farmingdale Road pretty low impact and that's when it's built out so you know from a land use perspective there are very few land uses that will generate less traffic than a
cemetery it certainly will not have a significant impact on the county road and I guess the last thing I wanted to say was I did Mr Civ our engineer has filed an application with the county because Adelphia Farmingdale Road is County Route
524 uh he's received some preliminary feedback from the county with respect to traffic issues and there is nothing there that he can't uh resolve and take care of so it appears as though the county is going to give us an access permit for the driveway should the board
approve the application you said five trips a is it five trips a day or a week during coincident with the peak hour which would be based on the historical NJ doot data for this Road 7 to 8:00 in the morning is the peak hour in the morning and 4 to 5 o'clock in the
afternoon and I would also point that that I it it appears to me that most of the burials and the the funerals that would be held at the site would be outside of the normal peak hours on Adelphia Farmingdale Road and that basic that's basically it I
don't have a lot more to say okay professionals any questions um not so much a question but a statement I think um you heard testimony regarding the number of vehicles uh on a typical service and I
think it was 15 to 20 this is going back to the the first meeting over the summer um you know I would also just you know I don't think there's anything restricting a user should they board act favorably and they decide to operate from the site from scheduling burial surfaces from not
occurring during the peak hour would any of your testimony change as far as impact to the surrounding network if the 15 to 20 cars occurred a service occurred during those peak hour periods yeah it would still have a minimal impact usually when the uh burial services are held there is traffic
control provided by the funeral director so it wouldn't have an impact on my testimony so and I know it was brought up um at the first hearing for this application but there were numerous prior land use approvals for this site that uh I don't know whether they were
fully perfected or whether their approvals have lapsed but there was a house of worship at one point approved for this and I think it was 200 plus parking spaces yeah um you know uh our current ordinance I think it's 1 per three for houses of worship as far as uh parking requirements so you know for 200
plus you're looking at 60 70 parking spaces so compared to other uses um you know from a traffic generation perspective it's certainly less impactful um so I don't necessarily take exception to any mras testimony okay Jennifer I I just have one question John
so would the completion of the construction at the intersection of yellowbrook road which is a little bit farther to the Northwest I guess um which has a commercial component 72 single family homes and 10 Apartments would the completion of that project
change your testimony with respect to the impact that this site would have on 524 not with respect to the impact the cemetery would have I'm I'm unfamiliar with that application but it's under construction now it's old okay uh but the cemetery is what the cemetery is
with respect to its impact on 524 I was unaware of the fact that there was a previous approval for apparently a house of worship certainly that would generate a higher traffic impact than a cemetery okay John only because I don't know the
answer to the question does your study take into account uh because I hear repeatedly uh the traffic that's generated for service are there any other times of year or there any holidays or traditions where there would
be site visits to the cemetery other than just uh for a burial and is that accounted for in your traffic study my client Arthur Schwarz who's a rabbi testify to that I could bring him up he has more of uh knowledge of the particular Customs if with your
permission I could have him come up and address that yeah I think I think it is an important question so I would ask good evening members of the board my name is my name is Arthur Schwarz I appeared before the board I've already given testimony so so you're still under
affirmation I'm still under affirmation yes and and um just you if you could just give me 10 seconds um this is your labor of the heart right to that's correct I intend
to uh to donate the cemetery to for charitable causes all right and so in that capacity you went to the township you got the approval that the township gave uh this has been your project all along that's correct you're in addition to being an attorney being the applicant
here you're also a rabbi that's correct so you're familiar with the customs of um religious Jewish people yes I am can you please answer the question are there any special days special Customs special rituals that would have a particular impact on uh the number of people that
come to the C as I've testified previously uh there will be no Chapel on premise all the services uh all the services that are performed beforehand they're usually done at a
chapel uh very few people come to the actual burial site for the internment of the the grave site usually you don't have more than a dozen cars that are present we anticipate approximately
uh two funerals a week and that will be after years and years of uh the cemetery being open cemeteries are generally built long-term far in advance uh possibly decades down the
road before the cemetery is in full use um the question that uh that I'm being asked is when do are there any other times besides the actual grave site uh ceremony that takes place yes
um parents relatives close friends come to visit the grave site occasionally usually they do it before the high holy holidays and on the date that the deceased passed away there's a tradition um it happens uh for the first
generation after someone passes away they usually come to the gravite second generation is a little more distant the third generation they rarely come to the grave site um very very small traffic um
especially in a new Cemetery I don't believe there'll be more than 50 visits a year preliminarily as time goes by as the cemetery grows in size you'll have more visitors and people that want to
come and say their last respects to the to this deceased and remember them what happens um but very very small uh traffic again as I mentioned before
generally during a uh a burial most of the most of the ceremony takes place at the chapel very few people come to the actual grave site they've already been at the services at the chapel and it's only very close family friends relatives
that uh attend the burial service um I don't and anticipate any um any traffic issue that should arise and as um this is an emotional this is an emotional uh matter for me
I've spent a couple of years working on the project we selected this area specifically because it's it's out of there's a there's a railroad track on one side there's another cemetery on the other side um I thought it was the ideal
location and particular as I me mention before my previous testimony how is becoming increasingly uh Jewish residents more and more people Jewish people Orthodox Jewish people are moving into Howell there's going to be a great need one day for a cemetery and there is
no Jewish cemetery in how and present it's something that's going to be needed and something that thousands of people are going to benefit from it um this is not a commercial Enterprise this is something that we hope funerals are very expensive today and it's something my
hope is to keep the cost down for the funeral so people have a place to be buried we're all going to need it one way or the other any other questions that's all I have does that answer it does thank you okay thank you Arthur uh anybody from
the board has any questions for Mr Ray no guess we're good yeah yeah you can take that with you you're finished oh is the public have questions for Mr Ray I don't know if no questions and here's the thing do
we want to try to do the questions would he be able to stay or would you I'll how more people do you have we're finished you don't have any more we do not have any more witnesses public let's
questions Cross or no no I think what we're going to do then if you're all done we'll do the uh public can come up they can ask him questions but most of it's going to be comments so let's get the let's get
started on that if you have no objections I have no objection okay you're good a motion to open Mr chair Mr Hughes uh second Nick second all in favor okay Eileen at this time the Chairman's opened up
the hearing for questions of Mr Ray the traffic expert or comments or I guess questions of anybody else uh so just come up one at a time give your name and address you'll be sworn at I have a question um have you testified before what no I haven't do
you swear or affirm the testimony give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the you got yes sir please state your name for the Michael burn uh three Colleen Court um but the other name that I want you to put onto the record is melik Yakov Ben
Yehuda you'll understand why so I have a couple of questions for you if that's okay sir I don't think I have any choice how many Jewish funerals you been to uh can you just several several okay make sure you speak into the how many Jewish funerals have you been to I've
been to several okay how many of them only had 12 CS quite frankly I don't recall okay um have you ever seen a Jewish funeral when God forbid when a rabbi passes away how many how many cars I think there was one
in New York City years ago where they had traffic tied up for monum shers exactly exactly um that's the only one I can think of it's something that happens unfortunately people die they do okay so these funerals they can be a lot
more cars I have been to I don't know how many Jewish funerals I have never seen one limited to 12 cars we're talking 30 40 50 cars okay please understand that I'm not saying that the rabbi was being you're not being truthful okay but maybe we go to
different funerals so thank you very much I really just wanted to ask that but much bigger funerals M Mr Bernstein if do if you really want the record to reflect your Hebrew name then you're going to have to spell bone has me to spell it
well maybe say it's maybe say it's Sher has it never mind thank you Mr B we can get the B part of that right wow that's impressive sh's on top of it thank you good evening War okay
okay um my name is Joyce anelli 27 West Farms Road ratan Ranch I also have a well do do you swear the testimony give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth you got yes and uh state your name spell your last even though I think you did say it and then
Joyce anelli yes NT o n e l i okay thank you Miss Antonelli okay so I have a horse farm with my number of horses that I have on the property my manure I have to manage it and I have to have it taken
away because of manure leeching into the Waterway and I'm nowhere near the wetlands that these are now I have walked through these wetlands and they're filled with pated woodpeckers which were recently just
taken off the endangered species list and downgraded to the threatened species list okay and the reason why they were endangered was because of loss of habitat now I grew up in West Lawn branch okay the whole area there has
changed over the years we used to have horse farms and stuff now we have black top the other thing is is that for 32 years I was an operating room nurse we handled chemo you need a personal
protective wear gloves and stuff because the chemo can come through your skin and contaminate you are anesthesia drugs even Betadine that we cleaned the skin with we couldn't put it down the drain anymore it was leeching into the
Waterway from the sewer and it was contaminating the fish people fish at the masan River Reservoir when you drive around town they're parking their trucks at the tributaries in fishing they're going to be consuming
that stuff nobody's going to know what happened maybe not this generation you might all be gone but future Generations are going to be impacted severely okay so uh I don't have a problem with Jewish people moving into
this town but this is an inappropriate site they have to go someplace where it's more Upland or whatever and you just have to think about you know other Generations it's
not a racist thing or nothing like that but it's just not the right place all right there's a lot of that's a big ecosystem I don't see why the township especially with that woodpecker in there can't buy that they're buying
tracks of land all over town to preserve it buy it all right that's taxpayers money that'll go to something good and will benefit the community thank you thank you I have one brief question for this uh witness if I
may or a couple can we put on slide number two up there are you looking for what's the name of the of the presentation that go to page two number two it's in the PowerPoint page
two I thought that was in the PowerPoint give him a sec it's a little slow can you st your address again just have 27 West Farms [Applause] Road I apologize computer's freezing up on me I do have it up for
your PowerPoint is is your intention to find out where she lives compared to the site is that what the whole not exactly yeah not exactly just should be in there it's here it's not it's not it's locking up the uh the
computer for some reason John here's a hard copy I have hard copies everyone does but I I want to put it up on the screen yeah but I can't you have the email Mr chair maybe we take a five minute break figure out yeah let's do that
e the will take back at after the board will now reconvene years okay Mr Jackson I guess we're back to you with the yes um um M um Joyce I think is that your first name or your
last name yeah her first name I'm sorry that's all I got when I wrote it down I don't mean to be disrespectful just um we we've put an image up uh it's an aerial image of of the area um you can see West forums Road on on the uh
kind of to the right right that's where your farm is yeah and um in kind of in the middle of of of the green up by West Farm Road that's where our proposed site is it isn't identified there but you know that right it's like right where it says Adelphia Farmingdale Road kind of under that right and um so that that big
green area that's like in Little Checkers that's uh Evergreen right okay and uh you drive by that every day when you come and go from from your F to Adelphia Farmingdale Road yep and and you've never had a wait for traffic there right sometimes I do sometimes you
do and the contaminants from there they haven't affected your your quality of life from that grave site no but like I said they're in bols and it's totally different and it is when when you say sometimes you do have to wait for the traffic at ever green how often is that what sometimes
mean we have a lot of traffic in the area now because it's been built up quite a bit there's been more developments there's a strip mall going up and everything there's more people moving into the area so yes in the town
of Hal there has definitely been more traffic no that's not what I'm talking about I'm asking about Evergreen Cemetery cemet you said sometimes you have to wait for traffic there when you say sometimes what do you mean by that well if there's a funeral or something how often does that happen that you've
had to wait for uh a funeral procession I don't know I never really really noticed I could be on my property and not leave my property for an entire week unless I need food because I'm busy working over there that's all I
[Applause] have okay before we hear anybody else from public I just want to remind everybody you can come up and ask a question but if the question's been asked we ask that you hold hold back
because I want to get it everybody opportunity to talk with their comments so make sure you try to keep within the five minutes we're not going to be with a stopwatch but we just want to respect all the people here in this room that they all get a chance to come up okay
great thanks hi I'm Kristen Kars and I live in 13 West Main Street on the county road hi hi testimony the truth I do thank you so much um I wanted to talk a little bit about something that I don't think has been brought up
before um so apologies if it has but I was going to go to our guy here who knows a lot about traffic I live on the West Main Street and I actually live next door neighbors to our crossing guard so adorable every morning I hear have a good morning kids walk to school
I I moved to Farmingdale from Point Pleasant I had a small community there the reason that I moved to Farmingdale is for the same reason so I can send my kids to school and not have to worry about people driving through flying by we put up the speed bumps this actually
has helped thank you um I I someone hit my house one time drunk I mean it's it just it's happens all the time this is going to cause so much traffic I don't care what anyone has to say I work from home I see it every single day people
are stupid speeding with your research that you did on the the area that this is being proposed do you know if all of about the action response times if there was to be an accident and what that looks like because farming Bill does not have a police department I don't know if you knew that that's my
field of expertise got it but if there was an accident do you know what this response time would be I do not know thank you thank you up you can come up yeah please I know you've been sworn so go ahead uh
Steven Meyer 56 Adelia Road um first off you spoke about um decomposition of a body and you keep using the term a body you don't have one burial um in
fact I even argue with what the rabbis said I believe in the first uh meeting testified up to eight bodies eight burials a week not just two if uh we were to use say five burials a week with a weight of about
120 lbs per body you're looking about 15 ton a year which just keeps compounding as time goes on that the remains from those bodies drains downhill I mean the water and collects is going to take it down it's
going to take it right into the Wetland down between between the graves and the tracks from there into Marsh bog Brook Marsh bog Brook is a C1 stream the C1 stream is a designation given to it
by the state for water quality not just water quality but that's your drinking water the uh buffer for that is not 300 but 500 foot and that's shown on the plan um it takes about one hour at the
rate that R uh the stream flows we're water to go from that site to the intake on Hospital Road we we keep talking about the reservoir the reservoir is just storage your water is taken from two sources it
comes directly from the manisan and it comes from a series of Wells from the manisan is it Hospital Road the water is there and is given a quick treatment and anybody you has a brda filter on City Water you see how often
you have to change that the filtration is not that effective they treat it to Federal standards and if that's what you're willing to live with then you're going to be drinking their debt the
um problem here is that if this is approved and you find that we're right and you made a mistake there is no fixing this there is no way you're going to be able to go in and remove a cemetery not just the political
pressure but what it would take to physically remove and clean the soil is well beyond what this town could afford to do the oh was else that I have I'm trying
to keep this as short as possible so I know you said 5 minutes um actually yeah I'm just thinking your neighbors but you know continue I'll keep it short okay the um let's see we already did for us a
number of Graves the problem when bodies decompose I'm not I don't argue with their expert that is a very good description of how the bodies decompose but also their expert testified that the water draining from
this site will go into Marsh bog Brook and from there it is going to go downhill also into the wetlands you have kids play in those in that water and if you've ever
seen the reports on TV when you have various disasters one of the things they're concerned with is contamination in the water with things like Cher typhoid and diseases like that you run the risk with deom decompos opposing
bodies running into there that you're going to expose the kids or the chance of to this the last thing I really want to address the applicant's attorney use the term when he made his
presentation of inherently that cemeteries are all inherently beneficial the general use cemeteries are this is a select use Cemetery it's not all Jews can be buried there
this is primarily for the ultra Orthodox to use they prefer not to be buried with a mixed Cemetery I mean it's religious preferences and I'm not going to argue
that but it's also not inherently beneficial inherently beneficial was defined with um s Wall Township back in the 80s as for the complete or for the general community's good this serves a
small portion of a community not the entire and when it comes to the argument being made of will allow anyone in who is Jewish you have to get a good definition of who they're considering to be
Jewish because from my understanding my wife isn't considered Jewish because she is not Ultra Orthodox she's conservative so it's that designation I'm not going to argue it
with them I'll leave that if this goes to appeal let the judge make the final determination on it but I do want to brought out on the record so that if this does go to appeal the judge can only consider what has been raised an
issue so thank you very much you're welcome Mr Meyer thank you good evening hello Nancy donio again 79 B and way um a couple of things one Evergreen Cemetery I believe is a cemetery that is predominantly built out
uh it was started forever ago as far as I'm aware I've been in bth County unfortunately for 56 years and Evergreen Cemetery has been here for as long as I've been here if not longer they actually wrote us a letter saying that they've been operating for
over 100 Years thank you so it's predominantly built out so the traffic that you were questioning the the uh previous woman about is not necessarily Cemetery traffic because it's predominantly built out so you're going to see more of those people coming on the holidays and coming to visit and of
course on Memorial day and on Flag Day when the Boy Scouts come and put out their Flags this is a new Cemetery the other thing that you'll notice on the map that is up all of the dark green buffer that is around Evergreen Cemetery that will
very quickly disappear with this project you lose that buffer zone that's one two forget about the woodpeckers three you also need to to maintain that
Cemetery how is it going to be maintained Evergreen is more of a natural Cemetery at most they mow what kind of maintenance is going to be taking place on this Cemetery will they be putting fertilizer down will
there'll be stuffed animals and things that will blow away into the wind further contaminating the water stream and the buffer zone that will be minimalized because of this project my third is for the traffic engineer if there is is a very large uh
funeral can we get part of this project signs on 542 on 524 saying no parking because that section of the road is 40 miles an hour double solid line and my fear is people are going to be parking on the
side of that road the answer is yes you can get no parking signs it would be uh something the township c not the township the county would have to do yes it's the county will go along with whatever the town wants if the town passes a resolution that they want no parking
signs put up along the road the county will go along okay so thank you I just to dub tail on that Mr chair I if the board um were to act in the affirmative and were to make that recommendation no parking on 524 I also think there should be no parking on West Farms Road there's
like no shoulder whatsoever even getting around a mail truck is like okay dangerous so if you had like a large string of cars on West farms at any point that could be P back as well yeah and just to clarify it so the board doesn't have jurisdiction to uh make an
applicant put public signage on a public RightWay you can make it a condition and a recommendation to the county and to the governing body to restrict you know but it would ultimately up to be the county and the governing body based off of the request from the from the board so okay anybody else
I thought are we in like what we're in comments now we still question oh okay I'll go oh this is uh are we doing questions or comments both both both yeah both okay both uh thank you um my name is Marty McHugh um I am not a
resident of of the community uh but I have been I've been aware of this project I've been working in Environmental Protection for close to 40 years now which I can't believe Mr MCH can yes oh yes s me I'm Sor where the testimony you give will be the truth the
whole truth nothing but the truth I do and even though you're not from how please State your address so my address is for Lebanon Drive in Bell New Jersey so um I've spent 25 years at the New Jersey Department of Environmental
Protection uh I have spent uh another uh 20 what am I saying another 10 to 15 years doing uh environmental Consulting working for the national Fish and Wildlife Foundation the conservation fund I worked for a construction company that's not too far down the road from
here uh the Dawson Corporation doing stream Restorations Wetlands Restorations um and i' and I'm also a a lawyer but I don't practice law anymore so um I appreciate chairman I just want to put on the record there's a concept
of standing when you come to a zoning board you're supposed to have standing for an application I don't know if someone in Belle necessarily has standing for this also to start with a preamble um you know your expertise you work for the D this person cannot give scientific or expert testimony it's not
excuse me sir so I I I just want to put my objection on it that all of those credentials Etc should be disregarded you can't testify as an expert witness and okay well I'm going to I I just want to be noted on no Andy can you chime in on that I just want to get your yeah
well he's not here on behalf of a party or I'm not representing anybody yeah he can test even a non-resident can testify okay yeah please continue I'm I'm representing the trees right let's put it that way I forget what uh what story I used to read my uh
The Lorax thank you used to read to my kids so anyway um I have a lot of experience with uh Wildlife Management I was director of fishing Wildlife I am not going to testify as a scientist Sir right or as an expert but as an interested party as an interested
resident of the state of New Jersey and and also as a consultant that sees what's going on in the state with the increased rain events that we've been having right there's a category one stream as uh Mr Myers has talked about Mar spark Brook 500 foot buffer uh we
have habitat for uh uh Species of special concern pil woodpecker there's a lot of other species there there going to be a lot of trees taken down when those trees get taken down that's going to change the hydrology of the system we're going to have water issues all
right I see it all over the state a I would say 70% of my work right now is dealing with too much water right too much water in in not only developed areas but undeveloped areas that's how that's
that's the kind of changes that are happening in our in our weather patterns whether it's climate change or whatever you want to call it it's happening right we got sea level rise we got all that right so you have an area here that's already flooding right uh people's
basements are flooding from what I understand uh I I know from from a from experience seeing the flooding at the apartments that are you know down the road so this is a watershed that's already experiencing significant stress all right and it's not going to get any
better and then when you go in to put in any any type of development in this zone right here you're going to cause more problems into the future so um and and those problems are going to be hard to rectify and they're expensive to rectify
especially when you have homes businesses around them I know because I'm that's what I'm doing right that's the kind of work that I do right now uh and and I'm doing a lot of it in Mammoth County as well so um I would I would proceed very carefully here with any
development and then uh one of the things that I'm also involved with is contamination and Remediation and the comments here from the public have been very accurate once once an area gets contaminated especially an area like this with the slopes that you
have and the wetlands raran Corridor that you have it's an important you know water source it's a tributary to a water source Manan Reservoir Manasquan River it's going to be very hard to get contaminants out of there and very expensive Mr M I don't mean to interrupt
anymore but I don't see how your testimony could be construed as something besides trying to give an expert opinion on because you're taking into account other people's testimony and offering your view of it so I I I I
think it's not overly helpful for you to continue because all you're going to do is contate the application one I hear what you're saying sir but let me just conclude by saying that take this really seriously any development in that in
that zone right because there are so many problems associated with too much water and it's going to be really hard to rectify it there if it comes to that okay thank you right I I have a couple questions for this witness go ahead it'll be brief uh
Mr mchu y um it's uh what is it 8:30 on Wednesday night 30 degrees at we're in Hal right right and you live in Briel right and this is what 10 11 acres of site yep and it's it's going to be green when it's done right it's going to
have grass over and plants and trees yeah but it's not like other developments right I don't know what kind of I I don't know this is the first time you've come to the how Board of adjustment the how planning board or any board in how despite the thousands of Acres I think this is your first time
here no I was here last time I listened to the testimony last time have you been here from another application before no I've never been here before yeah so my point is you're here what's so special about this what motivated you to come out tonight on this application to make an environmental I spent my whole life in the state managing natural resources
trying to protect natural resources trying to uh mitigate impacts to Natural Resources I became aware of this it's right down the road from where I work I go past it all the time I know how important it is to the Watershed I'm working in the Watershed and when I
heard about it I thought you know what it's time for somebody to kind of speak up on this and try to help the you know the locals who have have an issue here and that's the only reason why I'm here okay important enough okay can you show it to the
attorneys first so in case there's any issues with it I don't know what to make of it but I don't know what your testimony is going to be as about the construction of kosher caskets based on an article you're ant no there's two articles there because
they're make sure it's accept I don't consent to this but you know let him make the foundation why they should go into yeah I I I want you to chime in and let us know if you think it's acceptable why do Mr Burstein right describe what you're submitting trying
to submit to the board and how it relates and thank you thank you thank you for giving thank you for giving me the time so um as I said before my name I'm actually Orthodox Jew okay that's what I come from now in that realm
there's something called a Mitzvah and a Mitzvah is when you do something for somebody else when there's absolutely no reason for you to do it okay you're just going to do something good well for me when I lived in Brooklyn it was to make kosher caskets that's what I would do for people that could not afford them
Rabbi would certify them and someone would get buried in them I would get a phone call that they need this one to buy this wide by this long and I would I would make them kosher cas are much different than Evergreen Cemetery that this is being compared to
Evergreen Cemetery goes into vaults those vaults have a tar layer on the outside and on the inside that's to stop water from penetrating from what's in it to out of it okay water may get in it but you won't it won't go in both directions it's only going to go in one kosher caskets are not designed for that
they're made out of a wood that's it there are no metal fasteners in it there are no Nails there are no screws the glue blue is kosher meaning it has no formaly in it doesn't have any animal byproducts in it and when you put it
together it's all designed to decompose at the rate of the body but there's one part that they don't really talk about because nobody wants to talk about it the bottom of that casket is full of holes okay you drill aund holes in the
bottom of it if it's a solid piece of wood or you cut grooves in it I've seen some of them made where they're made with just slats of wood and there's an opening in between the slats the reason for this is to allow the groundwater to come up into the casket the body in the
Box rots it collapses you add some more dirt and you plant bushes that's the way it works okay that's been that way for hundreds of years okay what's changed immensely is what goes into these these
caskets now I think if you if I turned around and I looked if I asked everybody in here to raise their hand if they're on some kind of daily medication I take three okay when they bury me don't drink the water that I leak into okay I can tell you that right now okay but people
take daily medicine now if you have somebody it was brought up before that is going through cancer of any kind and they're getting some kind of chemotherapy radiation cyber Knight whatever you could think of and God forbid they don't make it they pass away well they're going to go on that ground
they're going to go real quick radiation has a halflife okay it doesn't go away quickly but they're going to decompose the box is going to decompose and it's going to get rained on and it's going to end up in these people's Wells you can't allow it because you can't undo it like they
said you can't once it's there it's there forever okay we talk about rain versus these caskets they're designed to get rained on that's the whole thing and now we have hundred years storms now every couple of months we got a
ridiculous amount of rain so I would ask you from my heart please do not consider Evergreen Cemetery in this application you cannot compare the two they are one end of the spectrum to the other okay
you're putting one into a concrete Vault and one you're just putting in to the ground designed to rot in a specific amount of time you had 5,300 bodies forget it it's over that ground is gonna be it's over so thank you all very much
so Mr B Mr bur if I if I could just ask go ahead so you your testimony before the board's based on your personal experience right yes I've unfortunately had to make you didn't write these articles no I did not write these what I did okay so we're going to give them back to you because you testified based
on your knowledge which is exactly what Mr Schwarz testified to so I don't have any issue with it yep so I don't but I don't want I don't think we're I don't think it's okay so needed it or not yeah okay cuz thank you everybody it creates all kinds of other legal issues you
know okay anybody else he again I'm Jeffrey Buck um 74 Vander Road I've been sworn in at the first meeting we had so uh I'm extremely nervous so relax with me um first thing I have is pictures of
Farmingdale Garden Apartments in 2019 the flooding that happens at the tracks flooding comes from the uh marbob Brook and goes all obviously there's several photos in here
um they the same or are they all different um there's groups of different photos so they're all the same those to give one to Mr banana other gentleman and did you take
these pictures no they're on the interet okay how do they know where it's from just um I don't know if this is I just want to know if he's familiar with this and time and if he saw it himself he didn't have to take the picture but if
this well the thing is it should be relevant if they're within you know 200 ft of the proposed Cemetery so if there are pictures where we can see water issues I think it's uh I think yeah I just want to know if he can say he
didn't take these pictures he says they're on the internet I just want to know if he says he was there when this happened and that's what it looked like then if you can say that that's fine with me okay it was actually worse when I was there to see it oh okay I don't have any issue um and that level of water goes the other
direction across the tracks too from the marsh brog Brook this is on the side of marsh brog Brook that's away from Theos so the water goes both ways when when the uh Brook
overflows um I don't know if this is uh just hold on one second so we're gonna Mark these as P4 and then we're going to distribute them while you're talking so this way I just don't put this up to see where this was is this where those apartments were
right about I'm not right there okay I got there I did I'm sorry did you have a date on them 2019 2019 okay thank you and I I actually do want to make an objection to this because we don't know
what the drainage conditions are there we don't know what the design is we don't know if it's maintained it looks like localized puddling right around these buildings um saw now I I don't know if this spilled over the banks or where this came from what the rain event was all those things it's not an engineer
yeah I don't what what bearing does this have on what's on the other side of the road well the marsh Brook is actually lower than that on the other side of the road that's my objection what yeah I don't know if they're in or not I mean I mean I would
recommend look the the the witness can the individual can testify as to this what why he thinks it's relevant what it depicts and the board can yeah we can he's not an expert he's it's it's subject to okay I I agree
Andy go ahead sir generally a very low-lying area this whole thing here um I also have um from the internet it tells you how uh that antibiotic resistant bacteria is
becoming this is another uh scientific testimony on an article from the internet that that should not be admitted no that's not not admissible no okay all right um sorry um this is something I wrote
Because I know this land like excuse me this was the one property can I help you can I help you get through this so he created an exhibit based upon his
personal knowledge of how the water this is the map you showed me uh yes so how the direction that the water flows in this area based on his knowledge and he doesn't have enough for everybody so I advise to give one to Mr Jackson one to
the object attorney and then you guys could share um just showing his experience in the area that's what that is okay and Mr chairman just just for the record note my objection I suspect you're going to let it in but without being an engineer without an expert a lay person doing a
uh a diagram of hydrology I think uh Engineers spend a lot of time in school studying this to get the right qualifications and I don't know how helpful it it has no scientific basis no uh credential basis you know you can observe a water flowing high tide or low tide we don't know what that means and I
think it's um you know not something the board should consider that's my objection thank you I I made this because I've witnessed the water flowing in this direction because I know the property so so well um yeah well why when you say that what is the factual
basis for saying you know the pro why do you or how do you know the property so well as opposed to just say a conclusion I I'm so nervous I wrote this down than here so if you want me to read just relax honestly there something to be nervous about well these are your
neighbors the board I have a tough enough time on a one-on-one conversation so this is not my uh yeah you know my area of expertise to talk to several people um anyway I'll uh I'll read what
I got here um okay uh just four pages it won't take too long hello I'm going to go through a short history of my experience with the property of the proposed graveyard and the surrounding properties it may seem like I am giving more information than you need to know
but please bear with me as all I'm about to say will come together in the end I had been very good friends this is what's breaking me up with James lure up until he passed away a little over two
years ago sorry he lived at 10 boy slain we had been friends since the mid 90s about 30 years his grandmother lived at 20 boy Slaine until she passed away around the year 2000 after that his brother moved into
his grandmother's house along with two friends we all spent most of our weekends together along with others at these two properties we were all outdoor people spending most of our time enjoying the outdoors our favorite pastime we all
enjoyed was riding dirt bikes I live over on Vander road coming coming from the woods behind my house there are railroad tracks that go right past the property of the proposed graveyard I could ride my dirt bike from my house along the railroad tracks across
Fairfield Road across yellow Brook Road up to the proposed property of the graveyard where there was a trail to go up to up the hill of the proposed property to 10 boy Slaine once there we would gather with friends and head out
to the tracks or head out to the track we had a track at the rear of the property at between 10 boy Lane and 20 boy Lane and it covered about an acre that's where we would drive near the track about 100 feet away or so there is a low Point pretty much in the center of
the property behind uh 10 boy Slane this area is always marshy during an average summer storm this area would gather some water this water comes from higher elevations and
runs along the surface to this point the water that ends up here comes from the entire existing graveyard this is the map that I brought that I showed where the water comes from the water antier comes from the entire existing graveyard the horse farm on West Farms Road the
property of 61 Adelphia Road 59 Adelphia Road all of 10 boy Lane and all of 20 boy Lane all drained to this area about once every 5 to 10 years when we would get a nor Easter storm or
extremely heavy rainfall all this water would saturate the ground and end up at this low Point um only when this happened it was no longer just covering the low point it would cover an area that would be well over an acre including the entire dirt
bike track I have pictures showing this because it's it's unbelievable at the center it would be about four to 5 feet deep it was such a large area that James's brother and his friends bought a used canoe to paddle around in during
this time the groundwater would be so saturated depending on the rainfall following the storm water would be there from several weeks to several months during this time that the water is present the some pumps at 10 and 20
Boyce Lane would run every day the real issue when this water is present is that the property of the proposed graveyard would be so saturated that I could not travel through it on my dirt bike about Midway down the hill all the
water all the all the way to the bottom of the hill along the railroad tracks the water perks out of the ground creating a swampy mess my dirt bike would not sink would just sink into the ground I could not ride through it it it's obvious to me
that all the water saturating the ground at this higher elev ation comes to the surface or at oh at a lower elevation and will effectively flush the contents of the ground bringing to the surface where it will run down into the marsh
Boog Brook to further worsen the condition the plan is to remove all the trees and vegetation from this property that currently burn off a good portion of the groundwater I did some research about graveyards in the high water table and what I found is that eoli can become
a big problem eoli thrives in a decomposition of a dead body especially in a wet environment not only that eoli becomes antibiotic resistant when it feeds on the decaying composition of the human body knowing that this could be a
possible or more likely a probability that this antibiotic resistant ecoli will easily take the short path of the water seeping out of the side of the embankment at this site and down to the marsh Boog Brook a C1 stream at the bottom of this property I strongly
suggest to take some various very serious consideration in improving this application and I have pictures of the the track that is behind the um 10 and 20 boy Lane this is a I don't know if
anybody can say I okay um have pictures for I don't want to cut you short but I think you're giving us your personal views on scene flooding there but you're not going to you're not giving us testimony as far as what's causing it
because because you're not an expert so that's really all we can do is just look at the pictures and see that there's a water issue there right okay yeah I just I really want somebody what the problem is is really nobody can see what's going on unless we
get an or Easter and it floods like this to really see where the water's going um if you do it when it's dry out like right now okay what have you been to any of our previous meetings yes I've been told okay because we Charlie our engineer has gone over this site
thoroughly as far as that site so I understand there's water that goes into this area but we're concerned with the proposed site right now yeah I think both that proposed site is such a
drastic slope that the water up where I'm talking about is just basically saturated the whole Mountain there and it's just coming out at the bottom lower elevations and okay that's what I see because I think everybody in this
board has taken plenty of the testimony and we have you know we have seen you know enough testimony and heard enough that I think we can go from what we've based on the application right but I do appreciate
the pictures because it does do you want and these pictures or which pictures are these s now these are pictures of the flooding at that location that I'm talking about at the higher elevation where exactly the higher elevation
because see Mr chairman you see Boyce laye there where it ends then there's a house right at right to the left of that right behind that house is where I'm talking about yeah but that's not is it's a much higher elevation yeah
it's a higher elevation I yeah okay I'm just saying that that ground gets saturated there when that ground gets saturated it's saturated all over the place Farmingdale is extremely low Ling well we had testimony from some of the
residents have already stated that so we are aware of it okay I just don't know if you know what happens when we get a nor Easter or you get that volume of water in that area because it does oversaturate that that area that doesn't happen all the time okay well thank you
so much I just want to get anybody else who wants to come up these anybody want to see these or does anybody in the board need to say anymore no we're good thank you so much good evening evening me Mr chairman
yes I'm not going to cross-examine that witness I made my objection um I have a lot of questions for him about engineering his knowledge his knowledge of hydrology his knowledge of um you know decomposition Etc but I'm I'm not going to not because I don't want to but
because it's nine o'clock and I think you get the idea yeah so I don't want to think I I consent to that or acques no no I understand Mr Jackson perfectly okay I yeah okay I have to myself again or Michael
getman I'm still swor in right uh can you pan out a little bit on that photo that's good all right now if you look at that you see Marsh brog Brook at the top and if you pan out a little bit more
you'll see Marsh bog Brook pretty much straight below it right uh go up or just yeah all right you see uh you see where Evergreen Cemetery is yes okay to
the right of that Marbach Brook pretty much goes straight down it meanders a little bit but it's being this site is being compared to Evergreen Cemetery Evergreen Cemetery goes really nowhere near it's on Higher Ground from the
proposed Cemetery the proposed cemetery is on Wetland the proposed cemetery is immediately adjacent to Marsh Bo Brook the cemetery I think you pointed out it's it's 100 years old right that's what they said in the letter yeah I
would think that the majority of people that are ined there have long since decomposed yeah so that if that was ever a threat I think that's long since going away okay
this is also what is it 5400 proposed yes okay now a quick Google of Evergreen it's 3,100 there's over 2,000 more going in this small space immediately adjacent to a category one
Waterway and a wetland all right you have a town nearby where the majority of people and in the rural areas surrounded my house being one of them and all my neighbors we have wells okay there's a lot of concern there
okay Miss anelli made he she pointed out why don't the town why doesn't the town buy it and it's not I don't mean interrupt but that's not really an issue for the for the zoning board okay I that's that's for the mayor and counsil okay so then that's not relevant to the
whether this application is good or bad all right um my point I was leading to that is I have two neighbors homes two doors down four doors down for me the park system bought those homes homes they were moving ready but their aim is to have
open space and Parkland they knock down those homes in the last six months and they cleared those lots so they can return them the woods we got Woods why take them down I'm not opposed to a Jewish cemetery
right I'm not opposed to the religious beliefs and how they inter people I mean boming this is just not the right place for it it's a very poor choice give them another place that I mean we've been
building warehouses right and left and I don't see them built on you know Wetlands you going to say we're running out of space I it just doesn't make sense I don't know how much more I can
add to that no do noted all right thank you so much thank you thank you Mr chair if I could just add a clarifying point to this so I just want to put on further record so the township is not in the business of allowing people to build development within
Wetlands or regulated areas right any applicant before a landuse board that has regulated features that are regulated by D needs to get the appropriate Outside Agency approvals from D so you know if this board were to act favorably on the application you know I think you've heard Mr Jackson put some represent presentation earlier on
in the night about where they thought the wetlands are might be a little bit more based off of them going to DP and things like that you know they'd have to get their approvals from d as well as their approvals from the township to be able to do whatever they want so you know the representation that they're the
Township's letting them build on Wetlands I just that's not something the township does and I just want to clarify that for the board and for the public okay noted may I uh request something for the next case I happen to have that case too I see it's the after nine yes three or four people who are here
waiting and um I don't know if we're going to reach the next case if we could adjourn that now and pick a new date or if you're going to try to get um I don't know how many how many more people would like to comment just so I get an idea so maybe we could get started and
then and then on behalf of my group okay Mr Jackson I mean here's the thing we may be done before 10 but 10's going to be the cut off so I don't know if it's worth getting started on so I mean that's going to be your call
started yeah but I do think she do thank you we we would ask that that uh case get um a new date that that is um 645 Oakland Road yes I'm the attorney for that as well I don't know the date
would be because obviously we're never going to finish that case no you're going to finish it tonight so I don't know if you want to start out fresh you get a leg up John if you start honestly right I me we're trying to move things along but something I mean do you want to at least
get maybe have one of your first Witnesses at least get something on tonight because I mean we're I'm I I believe we're pretty well well here's my schedule February 24th has three applications March 10th has four applications March 24th has a huge
application and April 7th has two applications so I don't know what date you want April 28th right now has nothing and I think what Andy was trying to say is if you start then you kind of like frog over go by the recommendation
of his beam yes yeah that's when am I nothing yeah you're just it did you figure that out Jen's taking my credit for Mya I'm sorry for interrupting no no no but I do you want to confer with them but I'm I'm
just saying it would not be a bad idea to at least get something started so you do get one okay great good evening good evening thank you everyone for your time my name is Angela Goldberg I live at 33 Johnny Drive in Howell
Farmingdale um so have you been sworn in ma'am I have not do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes um I I felt compelled to come this evening because I have some major concerns uh I know a lot of the
residents have already addressed a lot of the issues um that I was also concerned about one of the um the issues I have is uh I it's the traffic um obviously I have
to come up Asbury Road to the blinking light and make a left a lot of occasions through the town of Farmingdale um sometimes you take your life in your hands because it's dangerous to make a left onto Main Street um also if you're coming off of
soued um that's another nightmare a lot of times um I have a mom who lives in ramtown so I frequently travel up uh Lakewood Farmingdale Road um and I don't know if this was addressed in the traffic study or not but there are
already major issues at the intersection of Lakewood Farmingdale Road and Herbertsville Road um I know the majority of the uh people that would be visiting the cemetery are coming from Lakewood and that's the route they travel Lakewood Farmingdale Road so I
feel that the traffic impact would be significantly worse um I uh my last name is Goldberg I'm married to a Jewish person and um I have been to many Jewish um
Services uh and cemeteries and I have never had 12 cars there's usually quite a bit more uh vehicular traffic attending um funerals and cemeteries um so that's that um I
also um am concerned with initially hundreds and then eventually thousands of bodies um in various stages of decomposition going into the ground um for various reasons I'm a breast cancer
survivor and I had went through chemo treatments and I know a lot of people who passed away during that um and being buried with again a lot of chemicals in your body medications in your body I can't see that this would not impact the
um the manisan river and the groundwater with people with Wells I don't have a well but I'm concerned for them for sure um so uh th those are my major concerns I also am concerned about the habitat
that this is going to be taking up and all of the trees that are going to be cut down the wildlife that will be impacted the woodpeckers obviously but in addition to that we have a lot of wildlife in this area that need wooded
areas I mean we're basically cutting down everything that we any kind of space for wildlife habitat and I happen to be an animal lover so it it pains me to think that hundreds of trees and um
you know places where wildlife habitat um occupy currently is going to be destroyed for the cemetery so those are just the comments that I wanted to make and again I don't know if the traffic study addressed the issue of Herbertsville Road and Lakewood
Farmingdale Road because again I think the majority of the traffic would be coming from Lakewood and come through that area and it's already a a severe issue issue if you've been in that area and different times of the day the traffic backs up trying to
make a left onto Herbertsville all the way o over the 195 Corridor so that would definitely be another issue that I'm concerned with because again I frequently travel to ramtown to visit my elderly mom so that's all I have to say thank
you again for your time you're welcome thank you thank you good evening Mark py I I swor in earlier uh Mr Jackson just a quick question regarding uh exhibit A10 which is the resolution of approval from the governing body to advance this
application to the zoning board you're familiar with that document it it's not appropriate to cross-examine attorneys we're not under oath we're Advocates and um I just why don't you make your statement Mr P yeah I would make a statement and I agree I
don't well I I mean my question was when this application was submitted to the township it's my understanding that they would have gone through some review process with Township Administration probably not this board I don't I don't know what type of technical review was involved with that
and uh how much information our governing body was provided so they made an informed decision as to whether or not to they had no objections to this I I can probably yeah I was going to let you so as I've told you already what was put forth to the
governing body was not an application of this level of detail it was basically asking them permission to make the application that was it so I know you've asked me this multiple times I've told you the same answer multiple times this that what went before the governing body
was can we in how Township make an application that's what that was so they did not get into detailed negotiated protracted meetings that's not how this went down so I I do you know Jen can I ask you do you know if the governing body knew
the scope of the I don't know what they knew and did what they knew in terms of that but I can tell you that they weren't provided detailed plans it wasn't an it wasn't a site plan application it was are we allowed to make this application and the answer was yes make the application they in no way
shape or form uh endorsed it approved it they basically gave them permission to make the application that's the entirety of this resolution that's it and quite honestly why would they say no somebody wants to make an application to a board this is the correct body to
get into the level of detail and evaluate the testimony and that's why we're here but isn't it true Jen and I don't want to get into it back and forth but my understanding is that in the state of New Jersey the laws say that we don't have any permitted use Zoning for
cemeteries the state law says that the person who wants to develop a cemetery first needs to go and get consent from the governing body to advance an application to the zoning board which is exactly what I just said twice my question is does did the council know
that this was a cemetery for 500 plots 5,000 50,000 like what information did our Council have available to so I would suggest perhaps on a Tuesday night you direct that conversation to them because it's totally inappropriate here they have nothing to do with that they don't
even have any Gover anybody members on on the board here so if you have questions about what the council did go ask them well that's why I addressed my question to Mr Jackson because he's applicant I would presume that information this is not appropriate for this body this is not this application I
think I think Jen's what Jen's saying is all that resolution did was get him here yeah Mark I mean we're so how it got here is not our concern we're getting the information and we are going to make the decision right well to that point I do have just concerns about
the Integrity of the process and I'm not questioning anybody potentially having a conflict but it concerns me that I happen to know that a sitting Council woman voted to advance this application completely inappropriate
yeah okay L you guys all know what I'm saying no what you're insinuating is that something nefarious happened and it did not that's what I'm saying is that I don't think Mr chairman I object to this line of question and I I'll make my com excuse me the document speaks for itself
and in my affirmation I I have a different take that must beam respectfully and I'll make my comments during summation on exactly what the document says and it's bearing on this application uh which I'm going to argue does have a legal bearing uh and and you know the board can make its
determination but to get into innuendo you know what I'm talking about Etc that's an insult to this so then I will make my comment and and I'll leave it at that okay it concerns me when we have people that are serving on Council advancing an application to come to the zoning board and a spouse or relative of
that individual is also participating in the application and I will leave it at that concerns me now how do you UNT that horn you know you told them not to say it you told them not get into it so I ask that the board disregard that oh yeah yeah that's disregarded we have to
we have to do we have the resolution yes I think the resolution predates certain MERS membership it's it's A10 is the uh the resolution I have it right on my screen
if you want to see it no I have it I'm good I I it's in the packet it's good is there is there anything else like we're losing track here anybody else for public
comment I make a motion to close no I think on behalf of Mr banana just wanted to uh provide their comments oh okay I'm you're up I think you're up Mr banana right there's nobody else I don't think
El no but I'm saying we can and he can make the yeah yeah so let's just close to public motion by Glenn yeah motion to close to public second by Tom all in favor okay okay thank
you so um here on behalf of objectors and I'll give you the names Richard Buck Joyce marcc uh Christa ran and Thomas kin we're all neighbors of the the area affected by the application chairman
half of those people testified if they were represented by Council now they have two bites at the Apple they got up to say their piece make their legal argument now their council's doing the same thing that is inappropriate when when you're represented by Council your your legal arguments your summation is made through your attorney so I I just
want to Mr CL testified Mr Buck testified no Mr it's a different Mr Buck Richard I represent Richard buck that was a different buck that was brought to this attorney's attention and he said nobody was testifying all right then I
stand corrected and I apologize for interrupting so I mean appearing on behalf of these individuals and uh you know Mr Meyers who spoke uh I think you know in a way that crystallizes what I wanted to say and that is why take the
risk and I think when uh the last meeting very long meeting we had one of the uh members of the board uh you know made mention of the fact when uh Frank etel the hydral was speaking do we want to really let the cat out of the bag
when you let the cat out of the bag there's no putting the C back in the bag and that's really the thrust of our concern here is there's a risk here you've heard about the risk from Mr getall chemicals in the body these are
older generally speaking older people so uh I I guess I'll be half myself a lot of older you're on different types of medications so you're dealing with an old generally older population you're going to have a lot of medications from 5400 bodies ultimately some chemotherapy
drugs with high with uh with half- lives radioactive half- lives all getting into the groundwater potentially into drinking water into the marsh Brook Creek uh you know this there's a significant risk now Mr getall mentioned you could put in monitoring Wells you
could do that but then you find out there's contamination then that's it again the cats out of the bag you have a problem all these people then have contaminated water and they may have been drinking contaminated water before you discover that uh you know from the
monitoring Wells that it was contaminated there's a significant Health significant environmental concern here a real risk and uh it has to be taken seriously this is they're asking for a use variance which the bar is said very very high here and in light of the
risk the the flooding risk potentially Downstream the impact uh to the marshbrook creek uh to the groundwater to the drinking water of the people in this area and all the unknowns where when you find out what the known are it's too late this is too great a
risk to take for the people in this area so you know the the bar is set very high for use variance and you're well aware of the standard but just want to reiterate the standard this is a a D1
it's a D1 variance it's not a permitted use this is the uh this area is a A2 agricultur rural area and one of the key things you need to consider is uh no
substantial detriment and I would submit to you on behalf of the objectors I represent there is a potential substantial detriment and if this is approved then uh that could be realized and you're going to adversely affect many many people and you're going to
adversely affect the environment in this area people who use the marshbrook creek uh his who playing the marshbrook creek the ecosystem there wildlife in that area this could have a significant adverse effect that can't be ignored so
on behalf of the objectors I implore you to consider these these factors and the benefit yeah and uh for uh Mr Schwarz Rabbi Schwarz uh I mean I understand it seems like he's very passionate about
this and and you know it's very admirable commendable what he wants to do but this is not the place for it there has to be another place this is a horrible place for this type of thing so we'd urge you to deny this application thank you you're welcome thank
you okay Mr Jackson thank you Mr chairman so can we start with uh putting A10 up on the board on the uh screen this is the resolution of the mayor and Council and uh I I have a copy in front of me that I can
read so you can zoom it in um whereas Third Avenue is desirous of developing a cemetery the statute states that the Cemetary shall not be established or enlarge without first obtaining the consent of the municipality by resolution whereas Third
Avenue has submitted that request whereas after consideration and finding no objection to the development of property as a licensed Cemetery now therefore it be resolved the mayor and council state as follows a licensed Cemetery may be established by Third
Avenue Associates on the property known as block 219 lot 13 and the township of Hal subject to the township of Hal planning or zoning board approval and then will return Outside Agency approvals so this is
uh legally significant in the sense of a zoning analysis this is unusual territory zoning regulations are something that you get a d variance from zoning regulations are adopted by the mayor and
Council the whole theory behind a d variance is that you're doing something in an area where the mayor and Council has determined by ordinance that that's not the right place for that zone that's not the right zone for that use it's not the right place for that use so what
what we have here is it's kind of a different circumstance as it relates to the analysis of the youth youth issue this is not a place where the governing body has said a cemetery does not belong the mayor and Council said that they have no objection to it they made the
application they're familiar with the neighborhood they're familiar with the lot block presumably they know the town they know the residents and they've said the applicant May apply here to either the planning board or the board of adjustment so in that context now certainly we do have to go through this
process and it's a review process and I have a comments to make about that but that has material bearing on the use variance what has an even more profound bearing on the use variance is uh Mr Meyer said something he said that you
know because this is for a particular religious group that it is not an inherently beneficial use because it doesn't serve the greater good that could not be a more inaccurate statement of what the law is on inherently beneficial uses half of the many of the
inherently beneficial cases have to do with houses of worship that relate to a particular religious group I could cite them I have I have uh you know right on my screen House of fire Christian Church versus zoning board all there are many
inherently beneficial uses that say you know you can build a um uh a religious school you can build a um you know a church a house of War ship a mosque whatever the inherently beneficial use goes not to serving that particular
religion it goes to serving religion one of the most fundamental tenants of the uh of our constitution the Bedrock that our country was built on is freedom of religious practice so what the inherently beneficial use
Doctrine recognizes is that we're we the the law respects and gives special special priority special recognition to uses that are associated with the practice of religion you heard Rabbi
Schwarz testify there is a growing population of uh to say Orthodox Jews to say um hidic Jews it's it's I'll use the term observant Jews Jews that are you know pretty observant and there's many different Stripes of
that there there is a growing population in H and in many of the areas surrounding Lakewood which is kind of like an epicenter which is right around the corner from this site it's it's it's a growing Jewish population and the needs of that Community are for
respectful decent burials in accordance with the laws and their Customs that have been going on for 5,000 years um this is nothing light this is a something of profound importance and the governing body recognized that when they said you may do this here we think this
the governing body has no objection they respected that Bedrock principle that you know you you can have if burial is not the epitomy the the Zenith of of of your religious um beliefs what is when when
you go to a uh a Christian Mass a Catholic mass or you go to any Protestant service the burial you know it begins with baptism in many religions and then it ends with the with the burial that is the ultimate religion
just write a passage a literal passage into the you know to meet your maker so to say this is not an inherently beneficial use is outrageous and I I I know what the court will do with that um to say that a cemetery is not inherently beneficial use so we have a double prong
here that this board must take into account not only has the council said it is appropriate for this site which turns on its head the idea that this is the wrong place for it per the you know the uh governing B's resolution through through an ordinance this is a resolution almost the equivalent of an
ordinance but we also have an inherently beneficial use and what that status does is that flips around the analysis that the board of adjustment must make the board of adjustment is now in a situation where the inherent benefit of this use is established it's established
and the only question is really whether there is a substantial detriment to the public good based on credible scientific or expert testimony your engine has advised this board that you know the all this information about the water table about building in the
bed of the stream Etc can you can you go back to the uh um the first page of the PowerPoint this one all of that you could that that one's good you can go back to that one thank you thank you exhibit two all of that information with the water with the water table must be
rejected because the board's own expert has said that we have to get the approvals we must get soil borings uh there must must be changing in grades uh there are engineering practices Mr Civ testified to that he's a licensed civil engineer there's been no licensed civil
engineer to give testimony here to say that the hydrology does not work to say that the drainage does not work to say that that that things don't work here it works that's the only testimony that this board has in front of it it works so if the board's going to deny this it
was simply baited by uh Witnesses who don't have a scientific basis or a scientific understanding of what's going on who have other motives for not wanting a cemetery here the objector own expert testified that the migration of the water here generally is
away from the surrounding neighborhoods and he said that it goes toward the wetlands our doct stankin gave testimony about the decomposition of the body and what is involved in that you know the the biomass on the planet is incredible
um between the bugs the birds everything over thousands of years there's so much life look at look at a a a light in the in the in the summer how much life and and bio and biology is just swirling around a street light there there's a lot of things that die and that
decompose and that go into Earth I mean the the all every everything you know the the the the verse from I think it's from the Bible ashes to ashes dust to dust that's what all of our Fates are everything turns to ashes and everything turns turns to dust what Rabbi Schwarz
wants to do here is as old as time and it's as fundamental as anything that of the of the fundamental human existence all of us are going to die and all of us are going to be in a casket to say that a a a concrete Crypt in the
ground doesn't decompose over time I mean you know that that cemetery is from the 1800s what were they doing in 1800 in 1890 you look and I have the pictures and and you'll recall them I I'm don't want to ask them to be put up because it'll be a bit a little bit of a
disruption but but the board can take notice you drive around every downtown every Community for centuries in this country have had cemeteries right in the church grounds with Residential Properties adjoining them
that is ubiquitous everywhere there you look there's a cemetery that's right next to homes right next to residential area our Department of Environmental Protection in the state of New Jersey is a extremely Vigilant uh governmental agency that
looks after the environment very closely there is nothing in New Jersey's regulations despite one of the most robust Environmental Protection agencies in the country that says that there is any environmental negative impact from the decomposition of
bodies you know you get buried and you know time water it all takes its toll and as Dr stankin testified the field of dissipation the amount of I forget what he said it was something like a couple gallons or a gallons over a long period of Time come out of the body and go out
is that a lot different than when a deer gets hit by a car and goes off into a road the woods and decomposes in the middle of the woods um or or when a fish dies in the Stream there is just such an enormous biomass of life and body and flesh that decomposes around us
constantly so to say that the this is somehow an environmental contamination just isn't borne out by the credible reliable testimony you know I I I know it's hard as board members you know I know it's hard to just disregard the face of the uh you know members of the
community the water does not migrate Upstream the the obor's own witness said that everything from here is Downstream there was questions about you know can there be contamination and the objectors witness said well you know there may be there might be there could be there will
be that is not credible scientific testimony that there will be within a reasonable degree of scientific certainty that's just speculation it might well the the most interesting thing was when he was asked about what were they called the U the letters I forget mcds or something like that
whatever those letters were um oh you know you're only allowed to have so many parts per billion but they're everywhere they're in the food we drink you know you test the groundwater what kind of a a you know a uh a percentage impact is a as a decomposing body going to have on
anyone so what we have here is an application to to put in a cemetery for a segment of the population that needs to have its religious needs met the idea that there is a uh going to be traffic is just nonsense I asked the board to
take notice how many times ever have you driven by any Cemetery where there's a crowd that you can't get in and out or that it's a uh you know some kind of an imposition and if it is you know what you do you you you tilt your head and and you and you respect the people who
were bearing the dead how many times do you have a funeral procession past you at a red light and the police shut down everything you know there was oh what's gonna happen if some prominent Rabbi dies like we see on on TV I I I remember when I was in law school in Springfield Massachusetts there was a police officer
shot there were police came from all over the country you could not move on the street the whole city was shut down for the weekend to honor this police officer who was shot in the line of duty that may happen here um we all live in an area uh you know we have Brooklyn nearby we have Lakewood
two very two areas where we have a lot of a large Jewish population how many times do you see on the news when a prominent religious leader passes away and you have a thousand people there you know the same thing's going to happen this here when you have a prominent person die and it's very rare and this
is how many in memory have you seen the witness who was loaded for Barrack could point to one example you know what when that happens you just respect that somebody l lost a very beloved member of their Community Rabbi Schwarz has I called it a labor of the heart he's he's thrown
his heart and soul into this he wants to do something for his community I ask that this board do something for the Greater Community respect the fact that we have a important segment of our population that needs to have its religious needs met the governing body of Hal has determined that they have no
objection to the site it's an inherently beneficial use there are no substantial detriments we ask that you approve this application thank you yeah yes yes I have a question
yeah yes I feel free go ahead so Mr odonnell I apologize could I just jump in because I was referenced in that summation and I just want to put some points of clarity because I think it's being misrepresented of what I put on the Recon What I Said So what I would say regardless of any regardless of any
application right before the board regardless whether it's a cemetery whether it's a school whether it's um a warehouse right we review storm water management for a site the same way right they need to comply with this town's storm water Control Ordinance they need to to comply
with the D regulations this site has regulated features by D they also have to comply with D's regulations there's another shot of the Apple for them to review it my testimony was in regards to we would not sign off on this on any application for the board if we didn't feel that the applicant adhered to the
storm water regulations at the municipal level and at the DP level I think there's a distinct difference and a lot of the concerns that you've heard obviously there were some questions regarding stormw management and you know whether those are existing conditions and things like that as far as storm water leaving the site we would not sign off in on them from the municipalities
perspective if we didn't feel that it comply with the storm water rules there's discussion about impact to groundwater table and things like that from the bodies when they're put in the ground I think that is it's important distinction that's separate from runoff
that falls on the ground that then Overland flows over parking areas over grass into storm management features right that's a different kind of runoff once it enters into the soil and then gets into groundw that's different um by the applicant's own professional you
know I think he's characterized you know five bodies in the ground equating to one septic field right there's approximately 5,400 40 plots proposed that may be reduced Mr Jackson said they have to go get d uh Wetlands approvals
there might lose 500 or so right if it stays as it currently is at one septic field per five buried bodies that would be the equivalent of almost 1100 septic fields on this property right so I can tell you I'm not an expert in how bodies
de decompose and things like that that's up to you to way based off of the applicant's expert and the obor's expert right but I can tell you at like the Board of Health level Mammoth County at the state level there's certain restrictions that get put in place as far as the number of septic systems on
the property separation from septic systems to other infrastructure to water courses to storm War management infrastructure to Wells and things like that you know so I just want to put that in context you know by their applicant's own expert he's saying five bodies is one septic system you're putting the
equivalent potentially of 1100 septic systems on the property so there's the stone water and then there's the groundw impact with the use that's being proposed Mr chairman my comments to Mr C he said I misrepresented that's exactly what he testified to what he just said again now my comments to he looked at
the storm water management and the hydrology in terms of storm water management whether we're going to have four feet of water on the property and whether we were building in the wetlands or in the streamland I don't think I misrepresented anything and as far as the 5,000 uh the number of Graves the testimony was this is going the other
the the Evergreen is uh in 17 uh 1870 there going to be hundreds of years that the uh that it's going to take to get up to the maximum that's what the testimony is so what Mr stank's testimony was that there's only going to be a few burials per year and that the decomposition is
over I think he said in a couple months uh for the most part so to suggest that there are 5,000 the equivalent of 5,000 septic fields here I don't think that's consistent with evidence did you just say five burials a year no what was the number a year approximately
100 it was it was it's not going to be the full maximum cemeteries take decades to get filled up and that's what the testimony was so the the point that I want to make so I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest Mr Jackson made his closing the
whole back and forth is I I would think like isn't like this is it's not appropriate like if I I I would like to have like a couple legal points addressed okay if I can since legal arguments were made Mr Jackson you rely
on resolution and if you we could put it back up John yes R 23- 270 I do and that relies on New Jersey statute 45 colon 27-
25A and hold on I that just recites the statue paraphrasing it to say well but hold on okay I had the statute up hold on a second so that statute says that a cemetery shall not be established or
enlarged in any municipality without first obtaining the consent of the municipality by resolution It also says in subsection B no more than five cemeteries may be established in any one municipality and
not more than 3% of the area of any municipality shall be devoted to cemetery purposes as the representative of legal representative the applicant have do you know whether or not there were proofs submitted to the council as to the number of cemeteries whether in
the number in number or in terms of percentage of land use I did not handle that application I believe that was Mr Cohen or it might have been my client directly I I did not handle that I do not know what was submitt because the statute further says that governing body May by resolution wave any of the
limitations including the number of cemeteries except the resolution doesn't cite that that provision was waved so and have have you established in this application how many cemeteries there
are in Howell as we speak no because we have the consent of the governing body per this resolution so the the even though the resolution doesn't say how many cemeteries are or nor are they waving any requirement in there it's
your legal position that the council wav that requirement my legal position is that this has bearing on the uh on the on the use variants because the governing body has determined that it has no objection for a cemetery at this location so my point is is that you're
using you're using the resolution as a sword and a shield you're saying that the statute upon which the resolution is premised qualifies it as a uh a uh a uh
inherently beneficial use and you're all but you're saying that you don't have knowledge of whether or not at the time the resolution was issued as to whether or not there are more than five cemeteries located in Howell Township and you agree with me the
resolution doesn't specifically say that or wave any I'm stating that this resolution says that the governing body has no objection to uh a uh a cemetery at this location and as I argued I believe that has legal significance because it's it's a little different
than an ordinary situation where the governing body has determined that a use is not appropriate for that zone and can you site to a CA as in terms of the inherent beneficial use can you site to any case which is held that a cemetery
is an inherently beneficial use because I don't think I heard that I just heard like a summary saying it must be true so I'm just wondering then there must be cases that support that there is not a particular case that I can point to that uh refers to a cemetery there are cases
that uh rely upon uh religious institutions and um I have no doubt that the court will determine that this is an inherent well again I don't I view that I view that as a threat so why are you threatening me what a court I'm asking you for your legal argument getting
frustrated and I John John listen I understand the concern I understand the Precedence but I I apolog oliz but I could tell you're getting upset and I could see you actually slamming your fist into your other hand no because I'm just I'm just concerned forgive me just let the record reflect that this board
member has been going like this all night your fist into your so just wait a second I just want the record to reflect I was asking all I was asking you you're making me you're making a legal argument am and I'm asking you is there any case
law that you can site other than you saying you you're certain you're going to wi in the superior court if you litigated those were not my words yeah well it was your word they were your words and I'm asking are there any cases which say that a religion that say a
cemetery is a inherently beneficial use and you're saying the answer is no you're not aware of any cases but your argument is is because it's associated with a religious use that therefore in your view that that meets the def
definition the um is that a fair summary of your argument because I think a cemetery in its own right religious or not religious is an inherently beneficial use our planner made that argument for the reasons that our planner made there are legal uh reasons for that that I made in my summation the
fact that it's focused toward a particular religion I think makes it gives it even stronger elements for a inherently beneficial use for the reasons that I stated stated and that the uh former chairman who came up and told this board that that it only serves a particular
uh stripe of people makes it not inherently beneficial use I think that is the antithesis of what the law is so that that's my my legal argument on that the board can accept it or reject it so I think we're done with the the closing and the legal argument I think it's up
to up to the board now and is it your opinion Mr be are you advising the board that this is not an inherently beneficial use because I think you're making a legal argument I am you've not up to us to make the interpretation and you didn't make and you didn't make you didn't provide
anything in writing in advance for the board or for me to consider as the board's attorney making this legal argument so all I was trying to do was flush it out for the record that's since you just summarized you just said it was so so that's that was the purpose just
said it was so well that's what you said it must be true because I'm arguing it thank you okay I think at this time I think we want to move forward and make a motion on this application
ask okay one qu when I was reviewing when I was reviewing uh about these types of cemeteries I came across an article that said even though you're proposing 5400 and it might be reduced
that if there were a car accident and two people in the car both got killed they have the right to be buried in the same grave site so if you have 5,200 grave sites and along the way multiple people want to be buried in the same
grave site you can't refuse them because that's the law and if that's the case and that is true then you could have six seven 8,000 buried in there and that was never brought up and I'd like a somebody
to tell me that it is a law or isn't a law a yes or no before I proceed to vote I cannot comment on that because I'm not familiar with what you're talking about well I read it and it's on the computer with
multiple articles about cemeteries and it pointed out this particular instance and it seems like this fact is being withheld from me because I'm not hearing about it I waited to the end to hope that somebody would bring it up and make it a reality whether it's a law or not
because if we approve this there'll be 8,000 Graves there and nothing to do about it because the if five people get killed you'll put in as many as you can in the one grave site and five people could be two grave sites and then you got five there and it goes on and on so
to me that's the negative just so far outweighs the positive I cannot address your comments notar let's proceed to vote then thank you what what you're referring to yeah I think maybe I could should just
summarize okay while in certain circumstances or there are circumstances where uh a cemetery would be considered inherently beneficial but they're not just automatically granted inherently met beneficial stat like status and in the Hearing in July where
the applicants planner testified she testified that it's inherently beneficial because it promotes the public welfare and I feel like that's what we've been debating here for the past several months that is this really promoting the public welfare or is there
substantial negative impact associated with that at this particular location and the reason that it's important to differentiate between inherently beneficial and not is because an inherent beneficial use already automatically meets the the particular
suitability criteria I don't think the site is particularly suitable based upon the fact that the majority of the of the residences in the area are on Wells if the site was located in an area where
everyone was connected to public water I would not have the same concerns about whether or not this promotes the public welfare so I I uh professionally feel that the site is not particularly suited for this given the concerns about the groundwater and while there was
testimony by the objector that maybe it's not it's going to be a problem there's also testimony by the applicant that maybe it is going to be a problem I we he was specifically asked if he did a survey of the depth of the wells in the area and he said no so yeah
a new well that gets drilled down to 200 ft probably is not going to be a problem but if these older Wells are not that deep and we don't know how deep they are which is not our responsibility to do that evaluation it's the responsibility of the applicant to provide us the information that we need um so there was
no definitive testimony that this could not be a problem in fact I think that uh one of the comments that came up with uh from the public about how these caskets are actually constructed which requires openings in them which we had not heard
up until tonight also presents concerns for me with respect to the potential contamination of groundwater in this area I honestly don't feel like they've provided us enough dispositive information that would alleviate those concerns and if this was in an area of
town and there are a lot of areas in town that have public water I don't think this would be as concerning but this particular location given its proximity to uh an environmentally sensitive water body which drains to
Reservoir with which you know I feel like there are still some outstanding concerns from my perspective with respect to particular suitability as well as the negative criteria and I do feel that this could potentially be substantially negative criteria you know
it's you know how they say it's not just a detriment it has to be a substantial detriment this could potentially be substantial the other thing I also want you guys to know once you allow a cemetery on a piece of property it's that way forever you can so not only are there concerns like once you do this you
can't take it back from an environmental standpoint once you allow a use on a particular piece of property you can't take that away so that's why I feel like the site selection and the particular suitability of the site is so important so that's what I want you to think about
while you're and you can weigh the testimony that's my opinion you can weigh the testimony of the dueling experts we do that all the time as well as the information that was provided to you by various members of of the public but that's my professional opinion Mr
chairman I would object to all of that um we've now had after the case is in please I have to make a record of this I we have after the cas is in the board's professional who um is the planner taking it upon herself to give testimony
and opinion and make and suggest to the board what the findings should be based on her opinion uh there's no opportunity to cross-examine it's just out of joint with the case there's nothing wrong with the board's professionals weighing in and giving an opinion that's what their review letter is for and that's what the hearing is for and if somebody's going
to take a stance as an advocate for or against whether something's an inherently beneficial use I think that does uh is inappropriate to this process and I just want to put my record uh my objection on the record thank you okay dly noted but at the same time we've heard
many cases where the planner has made positive comments so I don't have it she is allowed she's our she's here for us and I want to hear what she has to say whether it's
good or bad for you so that's it's just that's how it is and how we're going to interpret it that's right okay so at this time any more questions from the board I'd like to entertain a
motion well Mr chair uh um we've heard a lot an awful lot and I kind of been stuck on one thing and it's the unknown the environmental unknown of what's going to happen 8 10 15
years and it's a Well area and the Waterway that's there certainly Finds Its way into you know into other sensitive areas so for that reason I want to make a motion to deny so Andy the at this point a yes would be
for denial a no there's a second okay yeah first is there a second second Nick Barella second so a yes would be a rejection yes okay okay e could we have a roll call
sure Mr gillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hugh yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Ryan yes Miss
scotson I want to publicly apologize to the attorney for my frustration earlier um there were just some things that were said that I was concerned about um my vote is yes chairman M I'm going to concur with uh What uh
Matt Hughes said it is the unknown we do not none of us up here know what is going to happen in five or 10 years whether it's going to happen or it's not going to happen but I just don't feel this is the right
location I would love to see a cemetery such as this built in how but in the right spot and I don't want to put it in and then five years later we find there's an issue so my vote is yes as well carries
I don't know if you get the next one I imagine we're not starting the next case uh let's see what time is it 10 o' so yeah it's cut off I'm sorry [Music] ien as far as Mr Jackson we have to kind of decide
what we're doing as far as a future date um our next meeting is February 24th there's three applications on two of them were already started so if I put you there you'd be
third uh March 10th has four applications on it March 24th has a large one April 7th has two applications and then April 28th has nothing it's up to you you can but you're going to be third and
I don't know how long of them are take it's up to you case it's fall apart we're ready to go you know you never know but this could happen again last on the calendar tonight I think there was supposed to be yeah the date John are the professionals
on the other on your other application would they be available right here are they available on the 24th Avil that's two weeks from tonight are you available on the 24th John here Rob's here and uh Justin is here are you available on yes
just [Applause] the other way to do it is to break it down is that okay give a shot I think try tonight I'll come the 2 up to the bus we're GNA carry them everybody carry
the Oakland application to February 24th they'll be third on the agenda but that's the best I can do announce it to everybody you what I'm sorry we're you know what we learned from you
did you learn okay attention anybody here for the ba- 26a Oakland Road LLC application that is going to be carried till February 24th
2025 um expiration is still the same March 1st do they have to R notice no okay no fur Okay okay I guess so we're s we'll see you back on the 25 thank you very much you too M thank you is there any further
business of the board uh motion to adjourn all in favor I [Applause]