##VIDEO ID:T61t03rzpCE## [Music] opening statement i s how Zoning Board of adjustment Monday February January 27th 2025 I hereby declare this meeting of the Howell Township zoning board to be open adequate notice have been given pursuant to the new Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on January 2nd 2025 a copy of said notice was emailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on January 2nd 2025 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on January 2nd 2025 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and all the bulletin board in the how Township Municipal Building 4567 route 9al Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcasts on how Township TV 77 thank you thanks e could we all rise in for the Pledge of Allegiance IED Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for [Applause] all okay arene can we have a roll call Mr burillo here Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr OD here Mr Rosco here Mr R literally pres miss scotson here Mr cabakis here and chairman Martens here you have a quorum thank you um here she is so we can do we have any approvals to approve tonight minutes uh no minutes to approve tonight okay hi I have one thing for correspondence okay let's do that and then we'll get the everybody case number ba 1926a Oakland Road LLC will be carried to February 10th 2025 with no further notice and it has an expiration date of March 1st 2025 okay anybody here for case ba1 19-26 a Oak Glen Road LLC that will be carried to the next meeting February 10th with no further notice and we're good with expirations and everything correct okay good okay Andy could we swear in the professionals ttim Charles kff Jennifer beam Sher buau your professional okay thanks Andy okay we'll have the resolutions right now first zoning board attorney resolution appointing Andrew Bayer Esquire of penstein for 2025 eljo voters burillo caner Hughes odano Orosco Ryan scotson karosi and chairman Mertens do I have a motion I'll make a motion second by an Marie roll call Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes Mr cabakis yes and chairman Martens yes resolution approved okay next resolution zoning board engineer resolution appointing Charles Kliff PE of tmn Associates for 2025 eligible voters burillo canor Hughes odano Rosco Ryan scotson kosas and chairman Martens to have a motion motion to approve second that motion Mr gillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes Mr karakus yes and chairman Martins yes resolution approved okay we'll try the zoning board planner resolution appointing Jennifer be ppcp of lean s avakian incorporate for 2025 eljo voters burillo caner Hughes oddon Orosco Ryan scotson kusar rascus and Mertens do I have a motion get there motion to approve roll call Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnal yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes Mr karakis yes chairman Mertens yes resolution approved okay one more to do thank you okay licensed tree expert resolution appointing Sherry SPO LTE fcme Associates for 2025 eligible voters burillo Cantor Hughes odono Orosco Ryan scotson cabar rascus and merens motion to approve second roll call Mr burillo yes Mr Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes Mr cabakis yes chairman Martens yes resolution approved okay great okay applications before the board tonight this first case is number ba 21-28 Freehold welding and it will be for an extension of time description applicant is Seeking a one-year extension of time for previous approved certificate of nonconformity memorized on September 11th 2023 the applicant was granted a certificate of non-conformity confirming that an existing residential use an existing commercial welding business multiple prin principal uses and structures it is a preexisting non-conformity if the property along with the use variants approval for expansion of the welding business and the new vehicle detailing uses along with the variants and waivers expiration January 31st 2025 good evening Mr chair members of board salvator alfery on behalf of the applicant the approval was granted in September 2023 the resolution said that uh it had to be perfected within one year so would have been September of 2024 um after the approval was granted I know my client and the professionals met with Sherie on site to deal with a landscape in potential Landscaping um issue on the side of the property between the subject property and adjacent property uh we worked on some of the documentation U but we but my client has not been able to perfect the approval uh we have uh two open items we need to deal with one is I believe we need to get Charlie a resolution compliance plan and the second thing is is we've prepared and we're going to be sending to the board professionals shortly a declaration of covenants and restrictions there were a couple of conditions within the approval that had to be memorialized and recorded in the county clerk's office that documentation has been finished we're waiting for my client to give us the final okay and then I'm going to send it to your board professionals um at which point we will have met all the conditions I don't think we're going to need till September of this year but we're we asking for a one-year extension just in case because things sometimes take longer than expected okay Jennifer no issue okay board members okay uh do we have a motion for an extension of time make a motion for an extension of time second by Jose roll call Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes Mr cabakis yes and chairman Martins yes thank you okay so so I we'll see you soon yeah I'm not going to get up okay next case case number ba 23-16 the center for Education New Jersey conditional use variance Bo variants and PF major site plan application of the center for Education New Jersey as applicant and owner seeking conditional use variants bulk variants and preliminary and final major site plan approval for the operation of a school on a farm property to teach prevocational skills to students with disabilities the application proposes to convert the existing two and a half story drawing to a school use with two classrooms a living room bathroom laundry room and kitchen on the first floor and three offices a kitchen bathroom and storage room on the second floor the application proposes other s improvements on block 42 lot 43 729 Lakewood Farmingdale Road with the expiration of January 31st 2025 thank you Mr chair again salvator alfy clear gcoe alfy and Jacobs on behalf of the applicant um as the board chairman indicated um in the summary uh this application requires both um conditional use variance relief and D1 variant relief because we have we're propos cling multiple uses on one lot um the property currently has a single family house at front and horse B in the back and then some out part structures in between the applicants proposing to um convert the S the home upfront into the special needs housing school and office space um and use the horse farm in conjunction with the special needs uh education uh there's minimal site improvements proposed because pretty much the site is this doesn't require much in terms of site work uh we've received and I just want to clarify we have tmm's report January 24th January's July 15th is that your L Sherry you're September 23rd okay good and then we have several other departmental reports um that uh we are prepared to address as part of our presentation we have three witnesses to present we have Walter Hopkin our engineer we have a representative from the school and then our planner is Christine Kone and our first witness is going to be Walter h okay s do you want to get everybody um sworn in and then we'll go from there right and you're going to affirm one yeah yes I do Walter Hopkin Christine cfone L thank you okay thank you thank you Mr okay Mr Hopkin can you put your qualifications on the record sure I'm uh have a Bachelor of Science from Drex University I'm a licensed uh engineer in state Su New Jersey New York Pennsylvania Delaware and Maryland I'm a certified uh certified Municipal engineer in New Jersey I have had the privilege of testifying and being accepted in front of this board as well as your planning board and surrounding communities okay we accept your qualifications thank you Mr chairman and Mr Hopkins is there a specific exhibit you're going to request that we put on the screen as part of your initial testimony uh probably a18 which is a color rendered version of of the site all right so while while that's coming up can can you well we should wait till you could Orient the board on where the property is located there we go thank you so Mr Hopkin referring to a18 would you Orient the board as to where this property Lo is located and where what the surrounding uses are sure it's a 25.95 acre uh site on Lakewood Farmingdale Road uh just caddy Corner offset from Victory Road which you can see uh as you're looking at the uh at the rendering to the west or to the to the left uh is the intersection with Victory Road it's known as 729 Lakewood farming Del Road uh block 42 L 43 and it is located in your a 6 Zone uh the surrounding uses which you can see on this rendering as well to the north uh is a single family large parcel uh with potentially some farming looks like it may have been subdivided because I do see additional um lots that have been carved off of that to the South is wooded uh that's a uh Township owned property the majority of that uh up against the road there is a single family uh home there as well and there's a lot that's owned by um the Manasquan River original sewage authority to the east across the road uh off of Victory Road is a an auto body shop uh excuse me to the west and to the East are single family homes it's difficult to see in this but they front on Easy Street uh in that location as well what exists uh as Mr alfery indicated is there's a a a previously residential home in the front that's being converted uh there are two other storage buildings throughout the site which are located and oriented towards the front of the site there's a a smaller Barn also in that area and then as you can see there's a large we'll call it a barn but it's really an indoor riding uh arena in the rear of the site what's proposed uh really no no additions to the building whatsoever we're proposing one handicap Ada accessible space space and ramp to service the the building in the front there's also 10 parking spaces to the um looking at it to the to the right or to the um east of the small barn in the front and then there are 13 parking spaces that were really just um delineating uh adjacent to the large riding arena in the in the back if you're if you're counting that's a total of 24 parking spaces including the um Ada access We Believe at 24 we're exempt from the EV um parking requirements of the state so we're not proposing any at this time there's a refuge area that's proposed adjacent to the barn between the barn and the uh the 10 proposed parking spaces that would be could you point that out yes sir what's the best way for me to to do this you have which you want it on that screen is the best yes so the ref very difficult in the rendering but the refu area is in this area and Walter is that enclosed and if so with what kind of material Mason enclosure intended to comply with your don't leave with it I have my own but it's not this fancy and Walter before you get into more detail is there any disturbance proposed um to any of the area that's cleared presently so there's no tree removal or anything proposed is that correct no clear no tree removal but there is an area uh the parking spaces by the refu area that will be a new gravel the amount of gravel we're considering as impervious it's approximately 5,000 57 Square ft which is uh does not qualify it as a major development and therefore it's not required to be a excuse me is that blue stone uh we're I don't know that we specified the type of stone but it will be okay um but it would be something that's suitable for for driving on we're we're just to be conservative we're considering an impervious U but it's still Falls below any threshold for for storm order management uh the client recently added a few things that we went out uh at the end of last year to asil lighting was one of those they added some building mounted um lights that we were able to get the specifications on and added to our um to a lighting plan uh these weren't designed they were kind of put on and we as built them afterwards so those those uh the heights of those comply with your ordinance uh but the uh intensity is a little intense in some areas so we could work with Mr kless off office to to modify that if required before we move on from that Walt so uh my office performed a site visit within the last week and uh several of the lights on the buildings don't match the detail that's shown on the plan you show in a wall pack with a cut off that's downward facing on the large barn in the rear you've got like two or three Cobra style heads that are almost pointing out at like 90° uh and then several of the wall packs don't have the cut off Shield so is it the representation from the applicant is if what's out there doesn't match your plan they're going to change it to match your plan well we'll we'll update it uh I think what happened there quite honestly is we as builted the uh recently installed lighting and didn't um as built the previously installed lighting so there's a mixure when did the when did this change happen from what you show on your plan what's versus what's physically out there because within 5 days ago what's on your plan doesn't match what's shown on what's what's physically out there right so at the end of last year they added some lighting we picked up the lighting that they added but we didn't as built what was already there maybe a year or so ago okay does that make sense so we'll update our plan make sure it makes sense so you know and I'll let John jump in later but I I do believe there's been some inquiries from adjacent Residential Properties in regards to light and intensity and spillover and things like like that um so if the representation is everything's going to be downward facing uh with uh cut off Shield so it's downward facing um you know yeah and we would certainly stipulate and we understand that that's required um we'll work with the board professionals to make sure that there's no spillage offsite and it meets the ordinance standards with the necessary screening of the so s respectively I I there's been complaints about the lighting and here we are all these months later with no revisions to the plans so I I'm not opposed to moving forward but [Music] the the fact that this has been an issue that you've obviously been aware of and have done nothing to update your plans to address it is concerning to me a little bit I my office and I personally can take responsibility for that because we did attempt to address it we were aware of that uh and I guess the the mistake that we made was we as builted the the recently installed lights probably the ones that are showing up on the on the board here and didn't include the lights that were previously on the on the so I I also just I think you need to spend a little bit more time testifying about the lighting and about how it doesn't need to be completely invisible it's the light like explain how exactly the requirements are written and what you're required to comply with because I think that there's a disconnection that like lighting is supposed to be invisible from the surrounding areas as opposed to spillage what's the difference and explain what the requirement is and how you meet it right so um I if I you have to stop I I understand you're upset joke respectfully we're creating a record here and you're not helping yourself so there will be a time for you to get up and speak but the commentary from the Peno Gallery needs to stop because it gets picked up on the tape and it's not helping you frustra need you need to yeah we're trying to resolve this and put everything on record so okay okay good you can proceed thank you so the so the lighting um what the ordinance requires is that the the lighting levels be reduced at the property line in this case it's zero foot candles which is the light level that's um that you would uh encounter if you were standing at the property line and you and you had something out to look at it uh we meet that we we we definitely meet that we're well within the standards we will update it to Ure sure that the existing lights don't um affect that but it's my opinion that those wouldn't we are uh in fact at zero foot candle the closest that we come would be in the area of the riding arena uh because there are building mounted lights there uh and we we get to zero foot candles within 30 feet of the property line so we're well within your ordinance not you're not within our ordinance yeah yeah you you've got p amount the lights that are shown at 30 foot high when the maximum we permit is 24 ft so it's not comping with ordinance if if if I'm permitted to continue my testimony you've asked me to address light spillage and when I get to that point I I can now that our ordin your ordinance requires a certain mounting height those lights were proposed and they were proposed at an inappropriate Heights so we will reduce those Heights to comply with your ordinance yeah so I would just submit to the board if you're going to act favorable on the application we need to see a revised lighting plan as part of the resolution compliance sub admission to the satisfaction of all the board's professionals you know no light spillage downward facing um are you going to talk about I guess the applicants going to talk about hours of operation because yes the lighting schedule indicates the lights will be on From Dusk Till Dawn and I'm just curious on why lights need to be on in the middle of the night for a school use um so we'll want to hear about that I concur agree yeah that that's a again I'll take responsibility for that's a general note that we had for a commercial site with this which this clearly isn't so that's not what would be intended we would update that note and therefore what what is occurring at the site okay we should see that no we're going to we're going to see it uh do you want us to at least get the testimony yeah yeah no but I'm I'm definitely I don't want to proceed until we have that I concur um you want to continue Walter sure so uh unless there's additional questions from the board or the professionals about lighting like to move on to the other things that are on the site guide okay there were also um some fire pits raised gardens and chicken coups that were recently added uh towards the end of last year um in this area by the barn and the applicant will discuss how that integrates with what their educational um use is there's circulation throughout the site um it's yeah I'm sorry so circulation goes throughout the site uh we did prepare a circulation plan that it it comes a little close over here so what we've shown is a kurn there's ample room to do a k- turn in this area um but there is circulation that's allowed throughout the site we only anticipate uh a minivan a box truck or uh potentially a um a mini bus that's how the students are transported to the site and we have shown circulation through the site that way um Mr cunliff did identify um that the two two vehicles cannot um pass each other at the entrance and the intensity of this use really doesn't require that something like that would occur um and your Fire official is also asked where there's a gate at the entrance that a nox box be included uh and that would be something that we would add to our plans as well yeah so I'll just add to that Mr chair you know when we get to the operational testimony we'll kind of want to hear you know how many classes how many buses how frequently how long they he and things like that cuz you know if it's a couple buses or two buses a day or three buses a day and it's a couple K turns you know um that's probably not an issue but you know if we're talking about buses coming in every 45 minutes and then you know passenger vehicles coming in out at the same time you know just from a emergencies perspective and safety perspective you know obviously there's certainly more ideal if you can do a 36 let's hear the operational testimony before we put a pin in that uh the site is served by uh septic system we will work with the health department to see if it need if the flows need to be upgraded and the um septic system uh has to be uh increased in size we put a note on the plan and any condition of approval would be subject to the Health Department's uh approval of the septic design uh we did have we did there was um some Wetlands I think that one of the professionals saw potential Wetlands on D website uh we had one of our professionals from the office walk the site and none of the proposed improvements are within any Wetlands or buffers we're proposing a small sign that sign is shown on the plans we actually took a picture of it um it exists it's 12 square feet your ordinance only permits four because this is really a residential Zone um if you look at the at the um at the picture of the sign it really isn't or if you've been to the site it's really not a large sign it just identifies the site it is too close to the road um so we'd be re relocating it to a um location that complies with the ordinance the size does not of course comply with the ordinance and we require relief there's also a fence along the front as part of this because this is a county road we anticipate that the countyy is going to run a right of way dedication so that's that's giving them a portion of of the applicant's property when we do that um the fence and the sign will be in the in the right of way so we're we're uh going to relocate the the sign as well as the fencing so that it's on the applicant side of the right of way um that's really all that I have as far as site improvements there's there's relief that's required and I know if you want to go over that at this time yeah one other follow-up question or two follow-up questions one is in terms of storm waterer management you did indicate that uh we're we don't we're not disturbing enough land to to require storm water management features but how does the property currently drain so the the the site I mean it's relatively flat but it does drain in several different directions um off to actually to the North and then to the rear of the property and and your testimony is that the increase in impervious for that parking area will not impact in any way negatively any drainage features that's correct um there's also the professional reports um which contain various technical comments that we we don't need to get into unless um there's something that you think we can't address as a condition of approval um or or in the alternative can you stipulate that we can address all the technical comments as a condition of approval we we we can't address them unless there's something specific that the professionals would like me to and conc on finally there are waivers and variances and we do have a planner who will ultimately testify whether it's tonight or a subsequent meeting Mr chair but um can you at least Le run through from the engineering point of view uh the relief that we need you could you could ignore the D variant relief because that will be pure planning but the rest can you identify them yeah and no in no particular order the the lighting so the light intensity what we didn't go over is there are certain parts of the site that are not lit enough actually right to comply with your ordinance so the intent was only to to light the buildings and the parking areas so we technically need relief from that um we would uh with we would withdraw and I would testify that we won't require um relief from the height because we'll reduce the height of the lighting as required and I can also testify that we will comply with your requirement of zero foot candles at at the property lines the ordinance also requires a 30 foot circulation aisle um we're really trying to just reduce the impervious and the amount of improvement so we just simply request that what exists there um be permitted and what this there is roughly 10 to 12 feet wide the ordinance requires a certain pavement section for parking areas again to reduce the impervious and the cost we're just proposing gravel uh for the for the new parking area the parking area by the barn exists and there's already gravel there so can before we go beyond that so yeah it's gravel is it contained with anything like curbing any kind of like uh utility pole like something on the ground to keep the gravel where you're saying it's going to stay uh we we don't have that we could add it we have bumper blocks to delineate them um but if we wanted to add like a a a railroad tie or something I think it's important because if you don't have something solid over time especially in the winter months when you're trying to like plow out and whatever the gravel goes all over the place we need something that will make sure it's contained I mean they do need relief for that because we typically require the parking areas to be solid surface right asphalt paved um I don't take exception to the gravel but I would like it contained in one way or another that's great suggest yeah because that's going to be a safety issue with the maintenance having Stones flying if they're using mowers and stuff so I I think that's a great idea and Mr chair I'll just add to that from a stor water perspective so I don't take issue with Mr Hopkins testimony regarding what's being added it's under the threshold of what a major development is gravel is regulated motor vehicle surface but it's 5,000 square feet they're they're well under a quarter acre I think to Jen's point the concern is anytime we see uses with these General gravel parking areas you know if you look at historic areals over time those areas tend to expand and what was or originally contemplated or approved can change so it just helps to delineate those areas and to kind of go along with that sentiment you know I know Mr Hopkins said there's 13 parking spaces that they're kind of they're already there down by back by the rear barn and they're just kind of delineating them and then there's the 10 spaces up front next to the the small masonry building and then one 188 parking space near the residence uh that's to be converted to office and classroom um I think we want to hear part of the use testimony how many vehicles how many people are coming in and out to kind of before we make a final Declaration on whether the parking sufficient until we hear the the use operation part of it and I just before we put a pin in the the lighting as well so um you know I'll let I'll defer to Sherry but we had a commment a letter about the color temperature of the lighting you know um I don't think we have a hard and fast on the color temperature but you know residential areas we kind of like to see a 3,000 Kelvin that's a yellower more subtle light once you get to 4,000 5,000 they're playing shows 4,000 once you get to 5,000 you're talking about the harsh blue at like the car dealerships you know the headlights you can't see when you're driving behind you that's something to consider maybe we want to cap that at 3,000 Kelvin and then with the use testimony we need to hear something more definitive on the operation for the lighting whether it's shutting off at a certain time or whether it's diming at a certain time um we need to have something we can actually put in a resolution yes absolutely also Mr chair real quick the just to confirm are these parking spaces with the ground travel for cars or is there farm equipment also planned in that I'm sorry cars or farm equipment yeah and and the parking spaces with gravel is that just for vehicles or is it also form equipment and other things Ju Just passenger vehicles thank you all right I'm continuing with the variance relief please uh loading space your ordinance requires a loading space for this use just because of the the nature of it the only deliveries we would expect would be a box truck or a minivan and they could use the um the parking spaces that are proposed the ordinance requires sidewalks which I'm sure you're well aware you can see from the from the uh areal that no sidewalks exist um either along the property Frontage uh on the other side or on either side of the of the property so we would ask that relief be provided for that um Miss spo's letter details the many um as well as Miss beam's letter the any um sections of your ordinance which requires buffering um for the site um again it's it's an existing site with virtually no site improvements um which actually is naturally buffered uh currently so we would ask for for relief from those various buffer and Landscaping requirements the ordinance also requires that a driveway not open into a public Street within 150 ft of an intersection you can see Victory Road is is kind of offset but this is uh an existing condition uh and your conditional use requires a connection to a public sewer and it's just simply not um available to this site so we just asked if we' be allowed to continue on a septic system and upgrade it to the health department standards there are other um bulk variances that I'll just the planner will get into them but just so I can Orient the board to them uh your ordinance requires 31 acres for conditional use we're at 25 .95 front yard setback uh is actually 150 ft that's required for this conditional use um we're we're close to we're just over uh almost six feet and that's a function of a it's existing and B the right of way that we're dedicating to the county lot coverage your ordinance I have to I have to just stop yeah these are not both variances Walter these are conditions of a conditional use if you don't meet them they're variances so I don't want you to present this as if it's like these are bulk variances no big deal these are conditions of a conditional variance which has you here for a d variance so underplaying them is not advisable I I would take exception to the characterization I mean they're not both variances I would take exception to the characterization that I'm underplaying them I simply indicated to the board that as the engineer I'd like to orient them to them and that the planner will testify to them and you also characterize them as bulk variances okay which is they're not so I'm going to clarify for the record that they're D variances okay so lot coverage ordinance only permits 5% uh 7.75 exists we're tweaking it up a little bit because of the of the parking and the um Ada uh parking space and the ramp to 88.1% building coverage 3% is permitted or 3 .25 exists uh and then there's also the sary ordinance because it's a residential Zone only permits four square feet or at 12 I think that's the relief summary of the relief one other final question is there was a fire report that you referred to relating to the KNX boox but you would agree as a condition of approval that any other fire related comments you would address yes okay that's all the direct testimony we have Mr chair of the engineer okay Charlie anything more you want to add questions so let Jin chiming because I think there's some more yeah relief that's needs to be testimony provided I mean I understand you have a planner but there's also the parking ratio for schools needs relief the driveway needs relief the illumination needs relief the architectural needs relief the connection to the Sewer needs relief we haven't heard our operational testimony regarding dormatory and faculty housing as well as multiple principal uses as well as multiple uses and structures the lot coverage the building coverage the buffer the lighting the pavement section the parking spaces the loading space and the sidewalk so I he did some of them yes he did but not all of them so I just want to make well that's part of the conditional use that you need to provide testimony to to in our letter it's very clear testimony should be provided as to compliance so those are things that that we don't know yet when we get to the use about the existing dwelling we had a bunch of questions in our letter we'll reserve it for the applicant and if I could to clarify the parking so it's our position that we do comply I think since the letter uh that your office issued and now we did delineate the additional parking spaces in the rear um our calculations indicate 24 required and 24 are provided I know do you have bus parking I I know no we don't I I know the board is going to want to hear additional testimony but I just wanted to clarify that we did add additional or we right so I would I would suggest we maybe go through this a little bit more because the condition is off street parking shall be provided in the following ratio Elementary and intermediate schools shall provide one parking space for each staff member or employee plus two parking spaces per classroom plus adequate spaces for buses and delivery vehicles so I'm not saying you don't comply but I'm saying that you haven't provided the testimony to justify it understood I'm also concerned about the relief on the 31st 30 foot circulation aisle that is it's not a big deal I just because it sounds to be like 12 feet is not going to be enough space for everybody to get in and out so generally that's reserved for commercial site plans this this is a little bit different um you know the fire Bureau will also review to a on whether they're concerned from a circulation perspective you know um 12T I think the areas where it's the narrowest is you know if you look at the area that's being shown right now there's the dirt or stone path that goes around the barn you know the rear and the side of the barn that might be where it's the 12T the narrowest there are some spots of the main driveway where it's maybe 16 17 ft wide you know perhaps could that be widen to 20 ft wide so that two vehicles can like safely pass each other that's usually what's required for the UCC uh and for fire code well is that something that the applicant could kind of work with or delineate something even if it's you know Pap grass or something like that so we getting 20 foot wide for vehicles to pass we want to make sure it's safe so if it's something that we can work with Mr kless office and or the fire Bureau we can certainly comply with that yeah I think that would be a great idea because I do agree with scotson it is a safety issue when you have no and I want to be clear I'm not suggesting that it needs to be 30 foot wide you know I think um you know typically the fire Barrel will issue memos that say 20 foot wide need to have 14 and2 foot clearance so 20 foot wide as long as it stabilized or has some kind of paper grass block or something like that so two vehicles can get in either direction I think would probably be sufficient so that's fine okay um members Glenn you want questions Yeah you mentioned that it's naturally buffered are the natural buffers compliant with our buffering requirements naturally no how um uncompliant are they yeah well nothing's proposed so I I guess maybe maybe I didn't characterize it right but I I think if you look at the site see there's nothing on the top there's not looks like there's nothing on the North well there's a there's a tree there's Tre that's your there's no landscape buffering proposed on our property at all we're not proposing anything we're we're taking advantage of the fact that it's just pocket of property with the surrounded by trees right but we're not proposing any but you you said naturally buffered and that's what I was curious there's there's I apologize I didn't mean to m natur is nothing yeah okay thank you anybody else Mike Nick can I just can I just Pine a little bit on the buffer I just want to listen I know and you know that I'm crazy about enforcing our buffers here but but I do think it's important to note that the 50ft buffer especially the Farmland buffer is in our ordinance to protect the farm it's not to protect the surrounding uses it's to protect the farm this is an existing Farm that's adding and and I I think that we're kind of getting into the weeds without knowing the operations which I think is becoming more and more glaring that we need to get the operational testimony on the record but it's important to note and you know me I'm never want to Advocate relief for this but the intent of the Farmland buffer is to protect the farm yes not the surrounding area so that's important to note as we move forward but I do think it's important to understand the operations of the site is it still going to be you know utilized as a farm you know with the school kind of as a second principal use but not taking over the farm use like we need to understand how that's to be used to to understand whether or not you know we have issues with these other variance questions with like for example the width of the road and all those other things that we typically discuss so I do think it probably would be good to get the operational testimony on the record so we understand that you know my understanding and S you can correct me if I'm wrong that the information that we were given is it's like 20 four students yeah that's all that it's right so we're not talking like a high school here with hundreds of students and staff and Etc so I do think the operational testimony is going to go a long way to addressing some of these other engineering related issues that normally we would have an issue with but we may or may not given the nature of the operation and in our prep meeting with our professionals and our client are we were debating operations first or engineering first and we decided engineering only because we wanted you to see the site and understand it before you heard how it's going to operate um so that's why we chose that order and that'll be our next witness when you're ready M okay so anybody else from the board before we move on okay the one thing is we are going to do the public uh comments after everybody's testified because what I think we need to do is make sure the public gives their input so when you come back next time you can address their concerns so that's fine okay and I and judging from the comments of specifically about the lighting the board's not going to act tonight because you want to see that plan which means we probably will not present our planning testimony until you get until we address all the technical issues and then put the planning on record but I'll defer to Jennifer she wants to handle I mean it's totally up to you whether you want to act on the application or not I think that um if you're comfortable after the operations you only have operations right s and that's it and then planning right that's what I mean that's what I meant I mean I'm comfortable moving forward with the totality of it if you trust Charlie and I to deal with the lighting as a condition I feel like we're here they're all here let's just get it going yeah I I I agree I testimony in but let's see how we are after operations and then we'll go from there that's fine ready yeah let's do that [Applause] yeah so miss liberman can you advise the board what your position is with the school and the property um so I'm the director of the center for Education which is an approved private school for the disabled and when you say approved approved by whom um it's approved by the New Jersey Department of Education it's actually a rigorous um took us most probably over a year to receive the license from the state they go through about six different parts uh excuse mebody I'm sorry do you want to all right so you you were talking about the licensing why don't you start with that again um so we is that is that better sorry about that um so we're an approved private school for the disabled which is in New Jersey Department of Ed ucation delineation for a special needs school um we service is it possible to get my um slideshow up makes me less nervous to have a visual that's a17 right John thank you um so we're New Jersey Department of thank you um so we we received our approval in May of 2015 um we started off with three special needs students um presently we are servicing children from preschool until 8th grade all children are placed by the district and they're all with a self-contained designation the reason why a child will come to the Center for Education as opposed to staying in their district is because their level of disability is too great for the district to be able to service them so the district makes a decision which is made by the child study team if they should place a child by us um next slide please well just before you that when you say they are you talking how boarded or pre or Jersey like what are you talking about thank you yes thank you um it's up to the individual School District presently we have children who are from Lakewood tinon Falls and Jackson um we're in the process of a child being placed from Toms River as of yet we don't have anyone from Howell we hope that changes but and that last bullet can you you talk about special needs but you give some examples of the type of special needs just run through that please so I guess the reason why I put those specific um disabilities in even though we have so many disabilities is because I'm specifically seeing that the first three of those disabilities autism Down syndrome and cerebral py are the students who I feel will benefit most from a farm-like program um the reason why I put in hearing impairments is because we are one of the rare exceptions in the state of having a very large concentration we presently have 12 students um that are hearing imp perod with clear implants and that is an area of specialization for us in the state so I just put that in because it's it's actually somewhat unusual all right next slide please um that's a picture of the house that we are looking to convert um the idea and our plan for the farm should you accept it and allow us to do it um is to create a prevocational program to teach students Farm skills and allow them to sample different jobs um from my experience and this is just my own anecdotal experience I will often have people calling me up with adults 22 23 and they'll say we'd like a job at the center and I say what can they do and I am horrified how they've gone through our school system and yet they don't have job skills so the idea is to look at our students I always tell my teachers we're looking at our students at 3 we're looking at them at 5: we're looking at them at 12 and saying how do we get them to be 21 1 years old and able to have really meaningful lives with skills this idea is in order to do that this idea is in order to make a difference in Special Needs children's lives at the age of 10 and 12 looking at them and saying look at these boys and girls now what can we do to make their lives richer where do we see the Gap and before you move on to the slide can we discuss the building yes so it's on my next SL and S before you move on if I could just add a point of clarity so the center for education is it's an existing school is is it obviously you're operating from the farm now and that's why you're here before the board but is there like is this a satellite to a hub that's somewhere else I no so I I apologize um the center for education is located at 14400 Prospect Street that is our only location what we are asking the New Jersey Department of Education I thought actually that was going to be the more complicated part they came down to the farm to look at the site and to say you know we we um showed them the curriculum that we wanted to use we went over what we wanted to do we showed them the space the New Jersey Department of Education is comfortable with us going ahead with this program so we have the approval of the New Jersey Department of Education we do not presently have any students that are being educated on the site as of present we're asking for that educational use variance so the main school is in Lakewood and then correct they come to this site and you know I'm calling it's a satellite it's not they don't presently that's what we'd like to do no I get it but what I'm saying is if this is approved their main schooling occurs in Lakewood and then they come here for vacational train so we would like to again with the board's permission we'd like to actually have 10 students um in this bottom floor where they have um two classrooms that's what we'd like to do in a small Therapy Room we'd like to be able to uh educate them on this site there's something just beautiful and magical and truthfully I mean anyone who knows the traffic in this town taking them back and forth would be a waste of educational time so I really would like them to be able to you know be there from the start of the day till the end of the day just not to waste the the travel time that's required so if you feel like the student would benefit most from this environment versus the environment in Lakewood this would be their primary schooling location you wouldn't have duplicative Services between the two but you would have potentially students that only go to the Prospect Street location and would not benefit from this yes ma'am underst understand and is the approval from the Department of Education in writing do you have like a letter I have a I have an email from them okay yeah we don't I thank you um the approval is contingent on us getting an euse from Howell we have permission to actually run an educational program as I'm describing assuming you get approval from us tonight or at some future Mee exactly right that's exactly right understand so and then just one followup question apologize so um so it's not like you know we have 10 students coming from Lakewood for two hours and then they go back to Lakewood and then there's the next 10 students coming for the next two hours we're saying they're there fulltime and it could be up to 24 students at some point in that is correct and how would they get there they would come on a Mini Bus the district would provide that's way our students get to school is they would go on a Mini Bus and the mini bus would drop the kids off and leave or do they yes the mini buses is a district it would be a district mini bus so they drop up at any school and then they would leave that is correct they would not be saying there but no large buses at least that's at your proposal now right now you we have 92 students they're all dropped off on Mini buses so let me ask you this and the and the reason I'm asking this is because you're here now and I would hate for you to have to like assuming if the board were to act in the affirmative and everything goes great do you envision potentially a full-size bus or never right now I I've been I've been the director since 2015 they've only given us manyi buses the only reason I'm asking is that maybe you want to ask for that s in the event just the only reason I'm asking you if it never happens it never happens but I would hate for you to leave here and it be conditioned only only on Mini buses and then you get to a point where a larger scale bus would be more appropriate and I would hate for you to have to come back that's the only reason why I would bring that yeah or that sounds very smart or if you have any kind of event that happens maybe once a semester or something like that where a larger bus brings a larger amount of students just for that given day you know present it to the board and let them hear that I I think that's very smart so I would just request that if that were to be the case which I would recommend that it would be conditioned that the bus not stay on site like once it drops off the students or for whatever reason that it leave the site because it doesn't seem like you have any place identified for it to park that that's fine and that's so that was our intend b along okay that's fine thank you um John go to the next slide I'm not sure the next slide can y That's the about the classroom I want to talk about right the school will only use the first floor of farm house for its students um that is actually a a real picture of this baby lamb that was just born on the farm um the second floor would not be used by students it would only be used as office and storage the rest of the property would be managed by the owner the max that we are allowed by the MJ Zoe is 24 students um we generally do a one to2 ratio unless the IEP mandates a oneon-one um the school day is from 8:45 until 2:30 and then let's focus on the first Flor first8 2 uh 8:45 to 2:30 and oh so let's while we're talking about the hours there's also some after school activity as well correct when is that and what is what is that after school activity so the special children center runs 2:30 for a special need child actually 2:30 for any child is just too early for them to come home so the special children center runs a program um from 2:30 until 5:30 and I believe once a week from 2:30 until 6:30 um as well as Sunday for 3 hours for just respit it's really just a respit program um the kids the kids groom the horses play with the animals do some sports there's some bikes there um it's really just a a rest bit program to give them meaningful activities to do with their time and those kids are the same you're not bringing additional students and it would be the students that are there all day no that's not correct what's not correct no um it's the students that are there those 10 students that we're talking about and then at 2:30 there is an additional group that's busted so how many how many students would be there after I I would say there's going to be 25 in well my vision is we would start out with the 10 students that we have now and then add another 15 that would come from a different school to a sum total of 25 and they would arrive by the same these mini buses mini buses okay the slide says 24 just so you know yes the center for Education which is asking for the EU for that small building um we can only go according to the NJ doe to the max of um 24 students the after school program does have other students coming so for next year what I would say would likely happen would be that our 10 students which is our what we're planning on doing next year 10 students would stay and then 15 other students would come um for a total I I I would guess that there'd be about 25 30 students for the students potentially it could be 30 35 students in the afternoon 100% leaving 5:30 most days 630 maybe corre that is correct um could I could I add something here sure um just to just to apologize um I the the special children center was not aware at all about the the lighting and the the frustration that it was causing our neighbors the special children center really does want to be a good neighbor and we will Rectify that really immediately I'm I'm I I'm horrified on some level I I am and I apologize for that we we had there's no reason why it needs to be on all night I think so let's talk about that what what's a comfortable time frame for the lights to go on other than an emergency l and a comfortable time for them to go off each day so I do not run the farm um that would be something I would have to ask the farm you know the Farm staff why they're keeping it on so late but I would say that there's no reason why it has to be on past 8 you know they could do the farm chores and take care of the animals without such large lights on especially since it's causing so much distress to our neighbors so 8:00 pm you would stipulate that the I don't control that I would ask I would ask that they close the lights by 8:00 the large lights understand that if we get an approval tonight whatever you say would be in a written resolution that you have to live with so if you don't know the answer we're going to have to get it so the board understands what that time is okay so I I'm I'm happy to call the farm person and just make sure that what I'm saying is tonight tonight I will I will walk I will walk out and get that answer okay we'll get back to that then so so sorry before you move on I just want to go back to the dong so we said the first floor is going to be entirely classroom and the second story is going to be office and storage so um I don't think we saw any plans for the basement there are bod doors at least shown on the site plan is there a basement to this the basement is locked the basement the the NJ doe made us may just put a permanent lock in it the door is so if it's used it's for storage there's no intent to make it habitable space absolutely not is there any attic space that could be converted to like additional space other than storage or anything like that it's not our intent okay yeah Nick Yeah you mentioned Farm staff they they're going to be living on site then no no one lives on site they anal they come early in the morning I think they come about 5:00 in the morning and then they put the animals to bed there is nobody who presently lives on site there's nobody with the animals overnight no okay the other question I had you're envisioning 10 students at initially initially up up to 24 okay so if we get to that point we're at 24 students and then you bring these additional students from 2:30 to 5:30 you say 15 so that's that 39 so 39 students that's correct I mean is are we are we pass capacity of what with there supposed to have no so let me just address this the 24 is for the educational purpose the after school is like I hate to say this but it's almost like a why kids or an after CARE program that is not regulated by the 24 the 24 is for the educational purpose that's from like 8:30 to 2:30 that's the max that they can correct if I'm in if I'm saying something wrong no you're totally so that's the that's the 24 is the maximum amount of students that they can have there during the day for educational purposes the Aftercare program is a little bit different they can have a few more students and let me let me just clarify that a little bit are most of the when you envision the additional students for aftercare are these kids whose parents are at work and cannot pick them up until 5:30 6 o'clock at night and so they can't go home at 2:30 in the afternoon so you're not talking about a million cars in and out dropping the kids off they come by bus right they're coming by bus from school and they're being taken back by bu so it's similar and I I don't mean to diminish it but I'm just trying to make it more generically understood it's similar to if a a child goes to a public elementary school and then are Bust from that elementary school to the YMCA for why kids after school and then are picked up by their parent at like 5:30 6 o'cl that is absolutely correct that's what okay but where are they getting picked up school they're getting they're coming from school yeah but they're going back to the school were they no and the parents come and pick them up at the farm correct no they go they actually go with public transportation back to their houses oh they do they don't so nobody's coming to the farm to pick them up yeah cuz I I think that's a concern of mine there's no additional traffic associated with the after school program yeah we don't I I don't think it'd be a good thing to have a lot of cars coming in and out especially when it's uh dark we agree and then the parking just to clarify that no parents are coming to the property you've already confirmed that the parking is really for your staff it's only yes it's only for staff if a parent would come it would just be like a a pickup oh the child has an appointment okay I have to just pick up Johnny early for a doctor's appointment okay and what what is the capacity I guess my point was what is the capacity of the school so it's you know it's a great question and I realize I'm not totally being 100% clear there's there's a lot of different things that are let me let me rephrase that what is the capacity of the building 24 so let me that that first Farm building is a 24 capacity did I did I hear you say earlier that the student the teacher student ratio is 1 to two two for the school yes so if you have 24 students there and you have using that ratio 12 teachers now you're at 36 people in the building simultaneously correct I mean they're in the building correct 24 students 24 students 24 students plus 12 staff 36 people in the building at one time correct that's correct did I say 24 people no no you didn't no no students students what is What is the capacity of people for the building is my question I don't know the answer that's a construction code question I don't know we have to get all we have is approval from the Department of Education for a maximum of 24 students right so we got 24 student we have 24 students we have 15 maybe 20 students coming for after school and then we have 12 teachers and my question is Mr the only thing I want to clarify is that there's numerous buildings on the property so in the after school program the students aren't sitting in classroom settings they're going out and they're they're they're in a pen and they're they with the Lambs there's some animal there's some um there's some students who are cleaning out the Hal Loft there's some students who are feeding the horses there's some students who are playing after school sports there's there's a lot of different act there's some students who are who are doing art there's some students who are actually horseback riding so the after school program is not a classroom based type program the way the Center for education is Center for education is actual students sitting in classrooms learning skills going out and doing those skills the after school program is more you actually said it great Jennifer it's it's more like a y program where there's different sort of clubs that the students can go to but there is the potential to have 50 55 children and and teachers in just so you're aware the building code if you have movable tables and chairs it's 15 square feet per person so for but they're only using the first Flor regardless the the staff probably is not going to just use the first floor they're going to use both floors I would venture to Guess that unless it's like a torrential downpour that these people are not going to be inside that's the whole purpose of this initiative is to be interactive with the agricultural use on the property but even if you take the 24 students and the 12 teachers at 15 Square ft you're talking 540 sare ft from a building code standpoint there's more than enough room on the first floor for 540 sare ft so not to mention the fact that that's kind of outside of our purview regardless this is a construction code issue has nothing to do with us we can't regulate occupancy in a building but at the end of the day the site is you know what did you say almost 20 acres and they have multiple buildings and the purpose of this educational program is not have these particular children sit in a traditional classroom because otherwise they wouldn't be here the whole purpose is to interact and do basic life skills throughout the farm again please correct me if I'm incorrect so they're not all going to be in the building at the same time it's no different than a like a traditional Elementary School the kids aren't always in the classroom they go to music they go to gym they go to Art they go to other things you know so they're not all in the same place at the same time my guess is and and I'm gu ing you can correct me if I'm wrong is this is going to be skill-based versus Age based right so if somebody has a particular difficulty in certain things they may be in one classroom where others are easier to understand how to work with the animals and deal with Farm type activities so it's going to be broken up not by age not a traditional classroom setting it's going to be organized by by interest by interest by interest so I think I mean there are a number of spaces in the barn how big is how big is the house Al do you know the square footage of the house we'll get it for you I'm not positive we'll have that for you in a second so and I I'll just add 3400 so I'll just add to it too so the fire buau and their memo they also indicated that if the board act favorably would be subject to annual fire inspections you know they are going to look to see whether the dwelling that's being converted whether it has appropriate you know number of students for the building capacity as far as from fire code perspective you know if something comes up that's not in accordance with the testimony that's provided you know they share the same office as okay well the bottom line is the compliance is going to be based on the approval construction code in fire department so as long as you're because Nick is right in one regard I mean this time of the year you're not going to have the kids outside so I mean it is a legit concern but as long as you're wine with the code that's perfectly fine we would if this were approved we still have to get building permits to convert whatever we're converting inside we have to comply with fire so that will all be done as part of that approval and remember though that again even in the winter when there's these Mo the after school program they're not in the school building there's other buildings there's the barns Etc where the kids are there's activities it's not limited to this one building um Matt approximately 1500 square feet is the footprint so that would be the first floor which is all we're using for the school is the first the the teach the class is first floor and just perspective that Big Barn in the back is like almost 30,000 scet humongous it's really big yeah looks if you haven't seen it it's gous we can bring her okay man yeah I just had one quick question where we were talking about like controlling the lights and all this stuff which I know you know we're going to deal with um are I guess are you a tenant there who owns it you're talking special children tensor owns it okay because I was going to say you had said that the um Farm staff comes in and you weren't priv okay all right so they own it so we have a few other follow-up questions the um it's currently a residential use if the board were to Grant this approval one of the comments in the reports is we you would agree to give up the residential use and make it the school use that is correct um secondly Mr Hopkins talked about the coups and the fire pits that were added can you describe how they're used in conjunction with the school and our Farms I I think they're really used for Farm use the um fire pits are used by the after school program not by the school program the school program would very much like to teach the skills of gathering eggs you know being able to put them in being able to care for the chickens we would like to use them right now they're being used as part of the after school program and you heard comments about the narrowness of the drive aisles and the concern was the traffic that's generated so you've already testified that their parents aren't coming to the site regularly so other than the employees who comes to the site on a regular basis it just would be the students who are dropped off by buses and the staff um how about deliveries what types of deliveries occur so the delivery would be sort of like an Uber Eats type thing we have a commercial kitchen at our 1400 Prospect Street location which is food that is cooked by a adult Day program of special needs individuals they cook the food and they would deliver the food drop it off and then return back to the 1400 site so there's no food prep on there's no food prep on and there's a kitchen on the we we don't plan on using that so you're not going to use the kitchen for any prep how about warming up food potentially I guess you could potentially use it to warm up food but not to actually be cooking food other than that food delivery which would occur what once a day it would occur once a day are there any other regular deliveries that might occur for your school use I assume they would be certain amount of just maintenance type products there's definitely hay that gets delivered again that's you know animal feed gets delivered um I would assume some maintenance products would get delivered um but besides for that I don't anticipate you know much else uh you heard Mr Hopkins testify that we're going to have a dumpster area that's going to be inclosed you you saw that yes and that's adequate for your use that dumpster I think so um we talked about the lighting we talked about Transportation I just want to make sure we've covered the rest of you're comfortable that the proposed parking that we're now providing is adequate for your use I do and that's with maximum capacity I do all right um and then I think Mr chair that was all I had Charlie or Jen if I missed anything I'm sure you'll tell me Charlie do you think it's sufficient if we did have that once in the blue moon full bus coming in there's adequate you know space for them to make a turn into the driveway yeah so they did have a turning template in there showing that a k turn could be made with like a delivery vehicle and I believe a a school bus or you know a delivery vehicle that's approximately the size of the school bus you know most of it sounds like it's mini buses you know for the 10 to 25 students you know that's a couple a day I don't anticipate that being an issue the larger School Bus it sounds like that's for you know once or twice a year maybe uh you know a couple more than that uh for a larger capacity if it's one turning movement every once in a while I don't really foresee it be an issue I think if it was you know we had multiple large school buses coming in and out of here and there was turnover and it was like a two-hour session and then they're leaving and then the next two-hour session's coming that's kind of where our question and concern was because it is tight with the the congestion um the isest and things like that uh but based on their testimony I don't for I don't have an issue with it Mr chair still um is there a bus drop off Zone where children get off the bus and would that area be paved we would can we push back um A8 John you didn't finish going through this by you want to finish I don't want to hold people up in terms of time we have we have um one more operational person who is actually on site more frequently she can answer that question if we could bring her up because she want she wanted to just add a couple other points yeah sure let's do that we did not have her affirmed you affirm the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth please State and please state your name for the record and spell your last let me sit down thank you my name is Kaya vender b n d r and K is c ha a a y Oh I thought just got my last name yeah you got it all right you have to speak loudly into the into okay so first let me address the school Sak maybe identify like her responsibilities who she is RO with the school I'm the director of the special Children's Center um you see this um you see this yes house you know how to you press that button top one right there there there show the question was where house right that's the house they pulling over here so where you have the Red Dot that just move the buses pull in over there pull in over there they stop there let the kids off and then stop there and let the kids off and then where do they go after they drop the kids off how do they get around you have to speak loud enough for them to sorry then the buses go in and they turn turn around and how many buses getting s getting back to the original question where the children are dropped off is that a paved area is that I think I'm pretty sure it's paved is that paved grael it's gravel yeah it would have to be that's that that's actually I believe an ADA it needs to be it needs to be paved yeah if you have wheelchair we have disabled children here right is that what we're talking about we have disabled children in children in wheelchairs are there any children in wheelchairs currently there's no children with wheelchairs or Walkers unfortunately we feel bad about it but it's not we don't bring them here because so S I guess to clarify so they are proposing a paved parking stall up by that's ada8 compliant I get the question for a drop off zone right like you're not going to drop off every single student into that handicap space you know perhaps adjacent to that maybe they could pave a loading zone or an aisle with the loading zone just so it's dedicated so if people are coming off on Wheel here as they have a paved surface to get into the dwelling that's to be converted is that kind of the question that you're going with on that that's fine we should work with and then I just want to clarify too and S you can correct me if I'm wrong so in the aial that's shown right now so uh on the road side of the barn there's a number of vehicles that are kind of parked 90° there the intent isn't to utilize that for parking those cars would be relocated to the parking spaces that are being proposed on the other side of the barn the 10 parking spaces yeah I don't know why those cars are there that's why I got there so your what's yes those parking those cars will not be there they'll be relocated to this parking so you know I think there's ample room for a paved aisle and a loading space to be provided where those cars are there right now and I think we can I can work with Mr Hopkin to find some suitable solution to satisfy the board's concerns with that as part of resolution compliance or if you want to see it if they're coming back I think it's something simple they can probably take care of and revise with the plans for you to to see if if this is going to another meeting but I I'll I'll defer to you guys on that just just talking about those so so where those cars are right there that will not be parking for cars yes that's I got thrown that's not working so delivery trucks would be able to use that area yes so there that's where people park inally now but that the intention is to move all the parking away from that building okay they they don't park there when the buses pull up actually they you pull up there's a space there and it's um pretty safe unloading okay you also have more familiarity with the after school program yeah I just wanted to explain the after school program a little so um like was said before is that a lot of parents work and the children that we actually service are from the most challenging children um many of them have left alone or like not having you know a staff really there with them um are extremely challenging so this program is meant to give rest bit to parents um it's meant to give the kids a great time um as meaningful as possible but also allowing the parents to work um and have a life and do what they need to do and then get to enjoy their child after hours because they were able to take care of things so in this in the barn there's actually like Workshop rooms so like you said it's very cold like you know running back and forth or playing outside is not happening right now um there's actually some big rooms and some smaller rooms we have a sensory room where we have like um almost like Disney like um textured sand and the kids have a whole like um I don't even know how to put it but a whole place where they could build and they have toys and everything they could build with sand and a lot of kids spend their time there up on top we have a very large room where they spend time there's kids who spend time in the barn there's heated rooms you can't heat a barn we learn because you'll kill the horses after we're putting in the heating system we found that out so that went down but there's individual rooms that are all there's another spot so the after school is definitely spread out and the after school is Farm usage like they come on the farm and they enjoy the farm for what a farm offers so with the animals or with different activities so there's definitely room for them to be they're definitely not stuck in one place or in a space that doesn't fit them and I wanted to clarify one other point just to make sure it's clear there are no dormitories and no one will stay on site um after hours for to sleep or otherwise no one will stay on site to sleep or otherwise we have cameras on the animals that need to be watched that night if they're delivering or things are going on we have special cameras in the Stalls we don't have anyone living on it and and no and no bedrooms are proposed in any of the buildings no um anything else you want to add I think that's it D would you be able to address the hours of the lighting yeah I'm I too apologize about this lighting I wish someone would have just called us I'm going to give all our neighbors my phone number because there's no reason for lights that bother anyone we will take them down tomorrow and we will put up now we have you know we have to get your approval but we'll put up lights that don't bother anyone we never want to bother anyone we just put up the brightest lights because we wanted to light the place up so it should be safe we didn't know with nothing like so innocently and and really really I apologize so we could talk about shutting off the lights at 8:00 and I could say we will but I really want to have lights that never bother anyone so they don't have to have a time to go off because they don't bother the neighbor so I'd love to work with um the board and and and okay so what is the bottom line you think 8:00 is going to be we could close it at 8:00 now we will close those the annoying lights at 8:00 yes can we just talk about the lights on the back side of the barn though yeah we're going to take like you don't really have activity back there which would be taking place like during the dark hours would it be possible to maybe instead of just having those lights on have them on some kind of motion sensor so if someone's back there light will come on and if there's nothing happening back there they'll stay off because that's kind of closest to your neighbors I texted my maintenance to please take down the back two lights tomorrow and we'll deal with what we put up there's like no reason they have to be there and we're so so sorry well security so you you'd want to have them come on if there's an i i maybe wouldn't take them down but maybe I would make them motion sens very good idea if nothing's back there by the way that was sher's idea I'm just steing the Thunder no but she's also our lighting person yeah so so and I would just suggest with that too Mr chairman so motion sensor but also like after APM on like a dimmed level right cuz uh they don't need to be at 100% intensity at 3:00 in the morning right I mean if they're for security purpos I think they can come on be somewhat dimmer and then sou and it may be follow-up question for for Walt so the barn in the back there's a note on the plan about the existing septic system to be upgraded is that because it's old and it needs to be modernized or are we upgrading it because it's need it's providing more demand and if it is providing more demand what exactly is it providing more demand for if it's a barn with Farm activities that was really intended for the building in the front so we're going to have to compare the residential uh sewage that's generated compared to what's eventually hopefully approved tonight once we have that number then I can go into the health department and say here's what we will approve for and compare the flows if it requires an upgrade then we will so so I think that I just want to beat at home so the testimony was the dwelling in the front that's where the classroom space is there is class related activities that occur in the back barn but is there any dedicated classroom space where you know we're doing more than 25 students in the front also in the back or we can expand Beyond 25 students in the back there we didn't and the reason I asked the question is we didn't really get any architectural or four plans for that Back Barn I was about to ask that when she start there bathrooms in the back that's a bathroom in the barn yes one bom one bathroom in the barn I was going to ask that too Charlie because once she started saying about rooms what's the what goes on back there what's there yeah maybe s we can hear a little bit more on that cuz we can describe yeah and whatever we do if this is approved we have to get the Board of Health approval on the septic system so they're going to inspect and we tested the do calculations but would you describe the you want to hear more about no and I'm what I'm just trying to avoid s is um you know once you get into the septic design level with the Board of Health there's like maximum growth based off of Gross fla so the septic system can be over designed for conservative purposes at the Board of Health level well when it gets back to the town it kind of creates like a question mark in a gray cloud when we say it's going to be you know 15 students and next thing the septic system that's approved by the Board of Health now says 50 students or something like that so I just kind of want to hear a little bit more for the record purposes just so we know uh what's in that building and what goes on back there so the building has um 30 horse stalls and a very very large indoor riding Arena and then it has like four smaller size rooms that are like they were offices but they're like you know they have they're not so small and then up there's a bathroom um and then upstairs there's like one big large very large room that's used for workshops and it's it's actually nice because you could look down into the riding arena so that was the purpose originally was when parents came to see their kids right so it's just a nice room hang out in so salad It's s safe to say in totality for the site as a whole we're talking about a maximum of 25 students during the daytime activities and then up to 40 45 for like including the after school activities and that's the site as a whole is that correct yes okay thank you I just have that's the Barn Building you're referring to it's humongous yeah yeah John I just have h a question uh I believe the prior testimony had stated that uh there may be students on the weekend I'm not uh aware of any uh Sundays we um any districts that operate on the weekend so I was wondering if we could get get some clarity on the days of operations yes so Sunday as well is not school it's resit program so SE is after school give the families a Break um give the kids a great time and they come out for just some fun activities with their friends that's that and that was like three hour period yeah what three hours what can you say exactly what 3 hours might be starts at 11: so 11: to 2 yeah 11: to 2 the only thing that I'm looking there is I like the idea sorry but how are we going to handle the if there is a large because you're not going to have buses taking the kids on Sunday or will you have buses taking we do have buses on Sunday buses pick them up yeah because I just don't want to have 40 cars coming in and out on a Sunday on 11 to yeah they want the flexibility to go to 11 to3 a 4 hour period was 11 to two but that program may need the fourth hour but that be no more than that okay are there any special events that are planned on the property graduations or ceremonies or anything of the such where either parents or family members of the students um or on property no we usually use our main building for that the space graduation or anything you'll do that at the main building yeah the space accommodates it more can we talk a little more about the I'm sorry go ahead no go go ahead um about the fire pits um do you anticipate that there'll be any like things being done in the evening where we're my fire pit I use at night roast marshmallows and stuff like that I don't use it during the day is closed but the farm so what's the fire pits for the farm I'm saying the fire pits the fire pits right I'm just saying first all the fire pitz are those barbecue ones that hang and you do barbecues on them they're not like they're not in the ground so the fire pits are for barbecuing yeah they're for barbecuing okay so like they're grills yeah they're almost like grills yeah they're grills they're like they hang and they have a grill on them okay but get back to one of my other my my original question do you anticipate any evening events no so nothing really past the after school time of 5:30 right 630 she say 6:30 on occasion 630 yeah 6:30 yeah 63 how many uh staff are there for the for the how how many staff are there for the farm itself outside the teachers like four okay four some of them are part time now are they certified as well for the students that'll be there yeah we have path certified all our trainers are path certified with our horses and like the highest thank you I'm dismissed okay s what um unless um I'll check with my profess professionals maybe we will take a quick break because I would like to confer with them so what we'll probably do is after the break we'll probably get Christine testimony and then I want to get at least the public up so we have questions for you for the uh whether we vote or not so we will take a five minute break the board will now take a fem minute break and reconvene at 8:40 p.m. satisf okay we're back the meeting will now reconvene uh s real quick the um I told you we had a couple members had one more question for your operational like is about the school or after school what was it after school or just want to clarify from Miss Bender something that she said earlier that's okay all right Mr Bend when you were talking about the barn itself and you were talking about the Loft area you said you thought it was good because the parents had come in and watch their children it was designed previously previously for parents to come in and watch their children so it's a cool room that overlooks just wanted to clarify that cuz you said the parents could come in and watch is is the school tied into the vocational school so the the the 8:45 to 2:30 is the vocational school and then there's after school like Farm use Farm activities so in in lots of Vocational School settings students spend some of their time in regular classroom situation then some of the time in the votech right so this is not these students are not doing both they're just strictly in the vocational it's not typical votech because the kids are really very um more specialist their classification is high yeah so they're not like learning culinary skills in a votek school and then going to work somewhere else this is really their home understood that will students in the vocational schools be coming out toar learn how to work teach in that type of situation is there a tie in there other from the district yes as a partnership yes um it's not in the plans now okay but it's a nice idea well because that adds more people coming in that that's the only reason I asked but they're limited regardless of 24 students students not not at the after school but stud they're limited to 24 students in their regular day program as far the as far as the people that are there but if it's like a student teacher situation I don't know the I don't know how the district through the Department of Education their maximum number of students is 24 it is and there's 12 teachers for for the 24 unless unless you said I think their testimony was generally it's one teacher per two students unless their IEP demands one to that it will be one teacher to one student if that's what the IEP dictates correct is that correct and yes and their their educational program what they're actually doing in school is dictated by the IEP by the IEP and an estate approved curriculum so most of these students you're teaching life skills like you're not teaching calculus right like you're teaching life skills teaching life skills like let's say with the chickens they collect the eggs they put them into dozens they use them and a lot of functional math right and skills I I don't have any children so I've never had people in school what is IEP can someone explain is there educational planid it's basically when you have a student that's categorized in special education there's a child study team that evaluates that individual's performance and creates a specific plan for that student whether it's they need a power with them or they're good with one like two on one they need oneon-one they need specific training it's very specific to what skill sets that they need help with and how to go about that and that's evaluated on an annual basis with the child study team the parent the teachers everybody and just to add Clarity to that so if the state did if they want to the state to seek an amendment to increase the capacity of students that they're allowed to have they still need to come back to the board because the board's user approval is condition on the testimony represent representations made tonight so you know they can't just go to the state seek to increase their capacity and then have more students on the site they'd have to come back to the board because they testified to a certain maximum amount of students and after school activities so I just want to put that on the record for clarity that's that's agreed okay okay that's all I had thank you okay we'll so we'll move on to Chris then planning testimony hello hello stranger how are you Happy New Year happy New Year you're I know you've testified before this board you're a licensed professional planner and your your for that your license is in good standing yes Mr CH do you need to hear anything no no we're thank I can almost recite it 29 years blah blah blah okay so good evening chairman and members of the board for the record Christine Naro and as you know the reason we're here is not because schools are not allowed in the AR E6 but because they are conditionally allowed and we don't meet all of the conditions which means we need a D3 conditional use we are also asking for a D1 use variance to have multiple buildings on the property even though that's an existing condition right whether this application is approved or not that condition is there's multiple buildings on the property so I just want to start out by reading from from the municipal land use law what in inherently beneficial use is an inherently beneficial use means a use which is universally considered of value to the community because it is fundamentally because it fundamentally serves the public good and promotes the general welfare such uses includes but is not limited to a hospital School child's Care Center group home or a wind solar or photovoltaic energy facility or structure so it is uncontroverted that schools are an inherently beneficial use as you heard the testimony from our operator this school will deal with those populations that are so sensitive that they cannot be treated or or be you know accommodated in regular school that we would send you know children to in public school so therefore this in my opinion is amongst the highest order of inherently beneficial uses so when the board is evaluating a D3 variance a conditional use variance you're not determining should a school go in this location legisl atively the governing body has already decided that the test that we are here to decide is absent compliance with those conditional use standards is this still an appropriate location the other thing I would tell the board is that based on my review of those conditional use standards those conditional use standards are generated for a use that is much more intensive than this and the reason I say that is because if you look at criteria e or condition e the minimum lot area for an elementary school shall be 10 acres plus one additional acres for each 100 pupils the minimum lot for an intermediate school or trade Vocational School shall be 20 acres plus one additional acre for each 100 pups the minimum area for a high school shall be 30 acres plus one additional acre for each 100 pupils so that's how we came up with our 31 Acres but when I read that I look at this as these standards were govern were put in place to govern public schools with hundreds of children at them as you heard from the testimony tonight that is not at all the use that you have before you tonight you have a use that's going to have during the the daytime typical school hours 24 students that's what they're licensed for from the state of New Jersey we will have an after school program also for special needs students that will rise to about 30 or 35 so in no way shape or form do we ever get to the intensity of school that in my opinion was contemplated in your conditional use standards with that being said as planner being pointed out we do violate certain of those conditional use standards so it's important that the board understands which ones of the variances are Dev variances so I don't know that we don't that we violate the lot area because I think that that 30 acre comes up to a high school so to the extent we need the lot area because it says for an elementary school it should only be 10 acres so to the extent we need that that is a conditional use will ask for it also the buffers we talked about the buffer um if you've appeared in Howell you know that buffers are extremely this community is extremely buffer sensitive so but in this particular instance we know that when we're doing applications we're usually planning to make sure that our use is buffering the adjacent residential uses or Farms here we have a farm on our property so we're not compliant but the physical plant of this site doesn't change in conjunction with this application it's really an Adaptive reuse of the existing structures on the property so that to me is a difference with a distinction that the board can take note of from other applications where you need buffer relief but that is also a conditional use requirement the parking um we are we believe we are going to meet the parking requirement for our Demand right we're proide providing 24 spaces but because we don't have a designated area for parking and bus delivery and that's the way the ordinance reads is that you have to have it now we did make a willingness to work with your professionals um if we do that it will likely increase the lot coverage we're already seeking a bulk variance for that and when I get done with the conditional uses I'm going to testify to what I believe to be the bulk variances so I'm just going to stay on the D variances for now for the D3 so that's the the parking and you know to the extent of Bus drop if and loading area is not designated we would violate that one of the other conditional use is that the driveway shall not open to a public Street within 150 ft of an intersection again we are offset from that intersection of Victory Road not too far but that's an existing condition on the subject property so anybody doing anything on if you were doing a school here you would either have to relocate that or you know here we're taking advantage of the existing driveway um and I think the low intensity of this compared to the typical school I think it's it's appropriate and then the other conditional use that we violate is for the source so connection to sanitary store is required and septic is prohibited that's one of the conditional use standards again we are continuing to rely on a septic system and I think given the fact that we are very limited in the amount of students that we will have and this is a very specialized school and even if the applicant were desirous and they were able to get a license from the state to have more students on site they would have to come back to the board when you deal with a d variant I am certain that Mr if this application is moved favorably is going to have all of these things that we testify to tonight in his um his resolution and I'm sure he'll probably make a reference that any testimony proferred by the applicant whether it's in the resolution or not becomes part of the application so and that's just you know that's just L use 101 if we were to come back for any more students we've got to come back to the board so that to me is the devarian relief that we're requesting in 2022 when you did your land use element here you actually made certain modifications to your conditional use standards you struck two provisions and you added one so when I look at those conventions that you struck you struck the condition that a school must be licensed by the state of New Jersey and you struck the condition that the curriculum of the proposed School shall be approve approved by the New Jersey Department of Education but then you added a condition especially prohibiting faculty housing dormitories were already prohibited and then in 202 to when you looked at those in the master plan you added additional prohibition for faculty housing so to me when you look at what you don't want here and the intensity of your schools this is not proposing any dormatory housing and it's not proposing any faculty housing and if the applicant were ever desirous of having anything like that they're right back before this board for a d variance so to me the conditional use there and there's only five of them that we violate we're really predominantly compliant with them and even in the conditional uses illumination for night athletic activities shall be shielded from view from adjoining streets and residential areas and a glare study should be required that's for night activities right so in the conditioning use standards you contemplate night activities because you contemplate a full public school that would likely have perhaps athletic fields so we're not proposing that my point in telling you that is that I believe that the use that's before you is quite less intense than your conditional use standard so those are the five that we violate again the lot area I don't think we violate it I don't think we need 31 Acres because that was the 30 Acres as associated with a high school oh and the setbacks the setbacks are also part of the conditional use standards Mr Hopkin testified to them and they are also again relating to in existing conditions so it's the lot area the setbacks the parking um to the extent we need that the driveway the septic and the buffering those are the conditional use standards in addition to that we are see speaking a number of bulk variances right we have the 30ft circulation aisle the gravel versus pavement the loading area that we're not providing the not providing sidewalks and the violation of building and lot coverage and the building coverage is an existing condition so Mr Hopkins testified and he described to you where on site that those bulks were function were occurring so those are the C variances which have a little bit different standard of proof but again I provided the testimony on the D variances for the unmet conditional use standards um I think that absent compliance with all of those this Still Remains an appropriate bucolic location I think if we were asked to come up with a use to host a a site like this this would be I think certainly even though we don't have to demonstrate it's particularly suited because it's an inherently beneficial use and it's not part of the conditional use standards I think this site is particularly suitable so that leaves us with a burden of proof for the negative criteria and the negative you can you just you mentioned the D1 the multiple buildings but just touch on that before you give the negative criteria okay so the D1 is because we have multiple structures and that's an existing condition there's five structures on this today and I think rather than looking at that as a negative that allows the occupants and the perspective students to really enjoy the entirety of the farm and the spread out on the farm and it certainly creates adequate space for the farm to for the school to be operated here and then when you look at the stated purpose of the AR6 Zone and the AR the purpose of the AR 13 4 and six zones it is to minimize the and I'm reading right from your ordinance so this is the stated purpose in section 18869 the purpose of the AR 1 3 four and six zones is to minimize the impacts of development in areas located outside of sense of the sensors identified in the Township's master plan the goals include preservation of Rural and agricultural use uses and preservation of rural character many areas include significant environmental constraints including Wetlands flood Plaines rare and endangered species habitats Aqua for recharge areas and high quality watersheds so the takeaway from that is the goal includes the preservation of rural agricultural uses which this does and preservation of rural character so I think when you look at the impact on the Zone plan and the impact of what was envisioned and contemplated by Howell in your AR Zone specifically AR6 because that's where this is located I don't think any of the relief Rises to the level of a substantial detriment in fact you can look at this as a way to preserve the existing farming activity because it's going to be so um intrinsically linked to how the school will operate so for my in my opinion this will not have a substantial detriment on this purpose of the AR6 or the Zone plan here in Howell or the master plan which was last reviewed and examined in 2022 when the conditional use standards were specifically looked at for schools and I don't think that this is going to have a substantial negative impact um whatsoever on the functioning and intent of the A6 Zone and as far as the bulk VAR the bulk variances I think that the board could look at them under the C1 and C2 section of the statute and when I say that the C1 and C2 I'm talking about the municipal land use law right that's not unique to Howell and and it's just the two criteria for granting bulk variances or C variances and I say C1 because there're existing conditions right like we would it's not practical to take those existing structures down to comply with the 150 foot front yard setback so it's also you know being exacerbated by the right of-way dedication along Lakewood Farmingdale Road so those to me are are C1 again the building coverage that's an existing condition whether this application is approved or not that non-conformity prevails on the site so I think that um and then the sidewalks um the applicant is not proposing sidewalks there's no sidewalks out here on the road so that to me is a C2 so statutorily I think when you look at the purpose this certainly promotes the general welfare we know that this is an inherently beneficial use that's uncontroverted so certainly criteria a of the land use law is Advanced promoting General Welfare um I think it's criteria G of the land use law that talks about promoting um a a variety of uses sufficient yes for a variety of uses this certainly preserves an agricultural use as well as provides for a school so I think that those purposes of the land use law would be Advanced if the bulk variance relief was granted and then as far as the impact on the Zone plan I already talked about the stated purpose but the board can certainly impose reasonable conditions on an inherently beneficial use to mitigate and balance any impacts and I think we've already talked about having no large buses on site overnight or staying on site after they drop off having no spill over of the lighting at them what that means when we say no spillover that just means none of the light on our site can escape or sneak off of our property onto ad joining properties so no spillover of Lights a limited number of students and a limited number of hours to me those are all reasonable conditions that the board can use and that's one of the tests right to seek a balancing test when you're dealing with inherently beneficial uses even though the use here is allowed um so it's a little bit of a different test the inherently beneficial use comes more into the negative criteria um I think it's appropriate for the board to consider it um that those could be reasonable conditions aimed to mitigate any negative criteria so um that's a lot right it's a lot of testimony quickly I know you have another application that you're going to try to hear tonight so I did my very best to stre did a great job but there's a lot to say right there's a lot two D variances D3 D1 and and a number of bulk variances those C's that identified so there is certainly a lot to say but I do think that we meet our statutory burden of proof for all the d and3 d and c variances and they can be granted with no substantial detriment to the Zone plan or the public good okay thank you you're welcome I have nothing to add okay questions from the board seeing none I'll just add one thing so uh they are asking for relief from putting sidewalks in along the public uh RightWay so uh I take no exception to it if you look at the aerial there's no sidewalking proximity and based on the makeup of the like land uses in the vicinity you know and obviously the proposed operations I don't know that we want to promote like pedestrian you know walking on a highway you know busy road like this um they do need a waiver to pay into the fund um we can't wave the payment into the fund but the applicant can always go to the governing body to seek relief of making that that contribution um I just want to get that on the record I don't think we need the sidewalk but they need the waiver to pay into the fund and then ultimately if they want to seek relief of making the contribution to the fund they got to go to the governing body for that um that's all I have otherwise okay I don't think we have any further questions from the board so uh s do you want to let's open to public now okay second by m Marie all in favor hi hi oh yeah I have ien the meeting will now be open to the public if you'd like to say something please come up and state your name and your home address hi my name is uh Michael McKay I live at 756 Lakewood Farmingdale Road mik yep okay thanks I know she just said that it's not going to impact the area having this year but she doesn't live in the area I do and let me tell you a lot of what was said today it was so hard to keep my mouth shut because it's blatant Lies over the summer they had choir out till 10 11 o'clock at night a choir band they had Stadium lights brought in with gas powered lights that were 20 feet in the air they had they fires bonfires out in the middle of the day a night with the s'mores going on there's cars constantly going in and out of there all day long the town almost crucified me because I wanted to add on to my house for my mother who's going to has had to live with me as in a wheelchair to get a I couldn't even get a variance to even get it an addition on my house for my mother westle live with me so I have to pay that someone else to take care of her somewhere else the board in this town I moved to this town and specifically this area A6 because it was supposed to be agricultural it wasn't supposed to be built up it was supposed to be Farmland where you didn't have to live on top of each other and once this little bit of sliver goes it's going to go and it's going to keep going and we know what's going to happen and I know nobody's going to under sale that no one's going to agree with me and he especially said it Force when I first got here he said I don't really care because he already knows it's in the bag he said it's going to be done today no matter what so apparently he already knows your decision before he even made it that was his words to me when I got here I didn't even I'm going to stop you that was not no this is a record this is a legal record he did not say that okay yeah he didn't and nobody on this Bo has made any decision on this before this meeting okay and the lights first of all the lights I have pictures of they don't look anything like what they showed up there they are so bright and they're on all night long and they didn't and and they the only reason why they brought this before in the first place was because they were getting so many zoning VI I so many violations code violations but they didn't try to do the right thing when they came here they immediately they tried to sneak it in then got caught and then they came to you to have this done they didn't do this like they came to you like they were going to do the right thing that's what this is about and if it had been I would be different about it I really would you know there signs wrong like everything they do they try to sneak through and I have a problem with that because if you're going to hold me up to the same standard and tell me I can't build I can't add I can't do this because I'm a non-conforming lot but you're going to let them well if you're going to let them then that's going to tell everyone in the town not to listen to what you say anyway just put it up and if you have to get a couple of violations oh well pay it because you know what nb's gonna happen to you anyway because that's what we keep seeing time and time again one thing after another and it just get it's really it's really sad when you you know because now I'm at the point where I either have to sell my business fire all my guys and move because if this town becomes something I didn't want to move here for why would I stay why would I stay so are you operating a business out of your house no my I own a business I said I own a business so if I own a business and the guy my guys who work for me you know it's just not fair you know I'd have to they'd have no jobs then and I'd have to move somewhere else and it's really frustrating you know people people moved to this town for a certain reason it it so it wasn't built up because everywhere else is built up every Town's you know Sky rised everywhere they're paved everything how is one of the few towns left that isn't done and once you give a little inch they're going to take a mile and who's going to watch to make sure there's only 24 kids because there's more than 24 kids who day who's day we we need to stop I'm saying I feel like you're going down a dangerous path own of the building sorry the owners of the property who are who are proposing this in front of the board that's what I mean when say they uh and that's all I mean because it's not what you're thinking I have family members that are that way I'm not that at all at all not me at all and I have kids that two of my kids have IEPs so I I know a lot about IEPs I've been I've dealt with it their whole entire life and let me it has nothing to do with that it has to do with the fact that these laws were put in for a reason they're put there so it doesn't change and then people come by and think they could eat it little take it apart little by little by little by little and as you keep chipping it away it's a slippery slope all of a sudden you got everywhere thinks they could do it and we're going to have them everywhere that part of town is really dangerous I don't know if you know that coming out of that driveway is such a tight turn they're going 50 60 miles an hour on that road whipping past there that is a very dangerous area and it's a real tight turn coming out of that driveway if you have to make a left or right it's a like almost a hairpin turn it is very tight I mean I live there I see it every day it's a 0° inter no I'm talking about when they're pulling out of their driveway I understand okay so I'm just going to State for the the record the site has zero violations on it so that's totally not true well that's what I was told okay well I don't know who told you that but here's the code enforcement officer and he's telling me there's no violations that okay well that's that's not code that's zoning that's not why we're here and this board has zero jurisdiction over the building department secondly if you wanted to put an addition on your house and you were told it's not conforming you could have made an application to this board as well but you didn't they're here asking for Relief they didn't do this and then ask for forgiveness no they did not okay so at the end of the day they're here asking for permission as opposed to other sites in town that have come before us on a code complaint where they're here because they did something they weren't supposed to do that didn't happen here how many times people I'm not getting into a debate with you I'm clarifying the record secondly one secondly my question the my statement is the same if anybody wants to make an application for anything there's a mechanism to do so and that's why this board exists otherwise this board wouldn't be here because they're here to deal with things that are non-compliant otherwise everybody would go to the planning board but that's not why this board exists this board exists for applicants to come and make applications for variances which is allowed by law I understand and at the end of the day the information that you're providing you're claiming they're not being honest but what you've provided it is not honest either they have no violations they're here because they're asking for permission the the driveway intersects at the street at a 90° angle there's no hair print situation happening I'm looking at the map I I understand but I'm looking at a map I know how to read a map and so at the end of that's 90° yeah when you're coming out of their driveway with the trees on both sides of that fence that's not a hair pin that's a turn and at the end of the day I feel like I that's why I specifically brought up earlier that the lighting requirements which is why I made the engineer go through the parameters it doesn't mean that you can't see the lights ever it just means that if you're looking down at the ground the spillage doesn't go over the property line which we which the applicant has committed to working with us to ensure not to mention both operators apologized and said that they would be more than happy to work with us to make sure that the situation would not happen in the future well I have pictures of the lights and they don't look anything like theirs and they are not they are but they've already committed to correct that I'm gonna I'm just going to clarify because the pictures in fact I'll bring them up again were pictures that I took based on the single complaint that we got uh and the only one in the system if you complain to another department I have have no way of knowing that nor would I go out on a complaint that someone that you complained to the building department so the building department may go out and they're only going to look at whether there were permits pulled uh if it was done correctly they're they're not looking for the statutory uh requirement with regards to to bleeding lights that would be something that code enforcement would out with and when we received that complaint the pictures that you see here I mean I don't doctor the the the pictures and it's very similar to what I have here there's and that doesn't that doesn't show what the candle light power is where it is yes it's visible I'm not going to tell you that it's not visible from a farm that probably wasn't in very much use a couple of years ago where it was probably pitch black to now where there's somebody on the property who now put some kind of lighting on it yeah there's going to be a difference whether that meets or doesn't meet the statutory requirement with regards to bleeding off the property the intensity that's a completely different uh topic so they're allowed to put lights yes you're going to now see lights on buildings whether it bleeds off listen like I said these are the pictures that I took that night I was there uh based on the single complaint that I got in the system I went to investigate although visible not bleeding and you're further down the road so even if they were here I'll pull up the map for you I can show you from my house I can show you where my house is sit in my new stuff on your phone because then we have to keep your phone but the lights we've agreed we're going to address the lights in fact we've agreed to turn them off at 8:00 we've agreed to work with your professionals we're going to actually improve the lighting even more severe or more strict than the ordinance provides right so what you're showing and I understand even though I've told you three times you can't show it because otherwise now we have to keep your phone that doesn't show me anything it doesn't show what the foot candles are on the ground yep I can see it doesn't mean they're in violation so what I'm telling you is is that you complained he went out he took pictures they're here they've committed to making the situation better and how long ago did we have that conversation how many months I didn't have a conversation with you than that wasn't even me that's what I was going to be you were the one that filed the complaint no no no no well I spoke to him in private about it though yes I did do that when was that I don't know was months ago it wasn't me the first time I came across that that that complaint was the one that was placed online so and I didn't do it correct correct so so Mr chair I would just respectfully say that the fact that you can see light on the prop property doesn't mean that the site is in violation and the applicant has committed to working with Charlie's office to ensure compliance they've also talked about turning the lights off behind the barn making them motion sensor having them at lower intensity but at the same time let me be very clear whether there's a school here or not the farm is allowed to operate and by the way they're allowed to light however they want and we have no jurisdiction over it at all so if this was just an active farm that worked 24 hours there's nothing we could do about it and the lights would be worse than they are right now so I'm allowed to get so on record then I can go and get 20 foot Stadium lights and put them everywhere do you have six acres no yeah well it does make a difference because it's a right to farm is to so I can go I'm done with this argument okay Mr McCay real quickly you made a good point and I saw and I saw the letter about the complaint about the lights they are being addressed I mean you already coming here has made a big difference on how this application's going forward because we are doing exactly what you if they're bothering you we're doing something about it I just care about this town it seems like most people are letting it go by the wayside it's frustrating well we're not we're all residents here we are just as concerned about what you're stating as anybody but we are here on a case that we're getting the facts and we are going to weigh the positive the negative and say this passes who who actually after that date they get their approval who actually checks to make sure that they only have 24 kids there enforcement code enforcement code enforcement in the Department of Education you can put in you can put if you feel that they are somehow violating all the stipulations that they have agreed to tonight after everything's said and done you could always call code enforcement and we will go out and what what can code enforcement do to stop it at that point nothing right it's also it's also a department of education violation so they codee enforcement would have to come out if they're out of violation they have to report it also goes to the Department of Education and they're they're going to have to be shut down before they come back or they have to correct it so it's not well I can tell you I I originally wanted to come here in your first two meetings I had thousands of people that were going to come to with me it got moved three times and I didn't have time I was that was my fault I was busy doing other things and it it's just this isn't just impact me there's other people that it's going to impact that aren't here tonight it's just frustrating that people who can't make it they don't they're not going to have a say in this and your guys decision is going to Forever change the landscape of our road forever and that's all I really have to say Okay has this been on our agenda before I'm sorry yeah so we have not heard any testimony so never heard testimony last time it was scheduled behind the cemetery we knew we weren't going to get reached so we carried it I don't remember it's prior times but that was the one time we carried it that I'm it's carried on the record so it's announced to the public I just wanted to okay anybody else from public good evening my name is Sher Rivas I live at three hear court and how it's Reas yes do you swear the testimony and give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so you got I do address three he Court where is that in relation to I'm sorry I'm just a hell resident okay RIS r i v re e a v i s thank you and where how far do you live from this property uh I don't know the number of miles but I live on the west side of Route 9 okay good uh I saw the Oprah records with emails related to this application um the emails are between Robert necastro a Township official and Sher liberman who's associated with this application we heard from her earlier I'm not here to oppose the application I'm merely a concerned resident who seeks to have a better understanding of what role Robert necastro had in this application so I wanted to ask some questions to miss liberman if that's possible I'm going to object because it has nothing to do with the application Mr chair or Mr May we're here to deal with a zoning question I'm not sure what that has to do with anything and he's not an elected official I know he's not an elected official but he was in contact with the town regarding this application so I just have a questions well I'm going to object I don't think it's relevant to the application I mean yeah I only think Lan's questions are relevant I mean I don't know what the questions could be but it doesn't well I don't think I I think they're objection that would be objection you would take no exception as far as she allowed to make her statement yeah of course she can make a statement but you wanted to ask the yeah yeah yeah okay that's I was only referring to ask could say whatever she okay course so my question was if uh task force adviser LLC was a consultant for this application if Robert necastro was hired in any capacity regarding this application and if yes or no why Robert necastro would be emailing the director of Community Development and the deputy Township manager regarding this application and then I wanted to ask you sir um have you ever represented Robert necastro in your professional capacity as an attorney and has Robert necastro ever recused himself from any application before the planning or zoning board when you represented him as an applicant and again none of those questions are relevant you made your statement and U we're not responding unless we're directed to because none of them have anything to do with this application and the the proofs that are necessary to support a variance application which is all we're here for okay well it was in relationship to the application so I believed that it was appropriate to ask the question well yeah I mean the individual reference hasn't given any testimony before the board so I'm not sure yeah that okay thank you I find it offensive that that suggestion would come out I I I know who that is I know absolutely nothing about any contact that he would have had other than the testimony that we provided tonight it's pretty offensive that you would suggest that we would be influenced by somebody who's not here I'm sorry I didn't say that you were influenced by anybody that's not here that was your inference all right well you misunderstood my statement then and he it through an Oprah request there's emails from Robert necastro to Matt Howard regarding this application so I wanted to know whether or not what part um he was playing you want to read those into the record I mean is that I think the question is more relevant to Mr necastro than anybody okay yeah thank you okay thank you anybody else good evening Betty baz gimbal 97 Victory Road Miss Miss Les gim do you swear testimony you give will be the truth tell truth nothing but the truth ofly God I do Witnesses SW good evening uh as a strong advocate of the Agricultural community and a representative of H Farmers United I would be remiss if I did not applaud the vision of tonight's um agricultural um goal uh in providing this type of education for these very uh students who are in need uh so I applaud your efforts um I did have concerns about the lighting uh more of on an environmental aspect um and I did share that with the applicant um the importance of the environmental uh sensitivity of where this particular uh facility is um and the nocturnal um animals that do live in the area uh and she was very receptive to that so I was appreciative of it thank you so much thank you Betty thank you anybody else seeing none to the public second everybody in favor Mr chair yes uh Jen what Mr McKay was talking about with all this extracurricular activity that may or may not be happening um at this Farm I just wanted some clarity the applicant owns the property correct correct so now they own the farm correct so as a condition of approval if we were to approve getting back to because I I was leading to that whole thing with the fire pits will it be a condition of approval that the um operational period will be the only time the farm will be in use so no no because it's an actual farm so the School portion of it which is what the testimony has been provided to you is at the latest it will be at 6:30 p.m. that's the after school activity but make no mistake about it it's still a farm so an animal could get sick or something could happen something has to happen on the farm that's regulated under right to farm that regardless of what you guys do today could happen regardless because it is an active Farm no but I'm saying as far as renting it out so they're not renting it they're running it they've given us all the parameters so Andy has taken down all of the parameters the number of students the hours the type of activities what's happening and so any action that you take with respect to the adding of the educational component of the 24 students to the site and the after school and the after school correct but make no mistake about it it's a farm it can operate 24 hours a day as a farm and there's nothing we can do about it because it's regulated under right to farm so they're here for approval to add a use which we've heard the testimony with all the parameters and they're going to be limited to those parameters but the farm still can operate as a farm regardless they could get out and plow the fields at 5 o'clock in the morning if they want to that's their right under right to farm okay all right so I got a I have a question then so even though so I get the whole I get the school separation the delineation from the farm so is there any staff that will be available or would have the ability if they needed to to stay on the farm meaning like one person in case there was an issue with an animal I know there's cameras and things like that um but is there going to be somebody that's dedicated to care and anything else with the farm I I do think the testimony and as she as she walks up I do think the testimony was that there's nobody there overnight correct but there are people but there are Farm staff dedicated to they also help correct with the students but they're there also for the animals correct you said there're four employees yeah yes and they're available when needed after hours it's very animals are really well taken care of awesome okay thank you s do you want to very very briefly sum up um inherently beneficial use which means we've addressed the positive criteria at least as it relates to the D variants um this minimal sight impact minimal sight improvements are proposed what you see on that area is essentially what you'll always see um before or after if this were approved um it's a very isolated property it's buffer um not on our property but surrounding properties are all wooded there's commercial use across the street um we're not building any new structures there's minimal traffic as you heard testimony we're going to fix the lighting issue we're going to comply with the lighting ordinance we're going to lower the heights of the the poles that were provided higher than necessary we agreed to put the rear lights behind the barn on timers and minimize those the light um uh intensity on those lights uh we we believe we've addressed the negative criteria as a result of those conditions we've agreed to address all of the technical comments contained within the board approval I me the boards uh professionals reports and it's again when you look at it it's still a farm site with a small school very low intensity and a and a tremendous use to the benefit to the community to treat these special needs children and for those reasons we request that the board Grant the approvals with the conditions that we stipulated okay and your professionals will work with ours to their yes on all of their all of their comments made tonight and then the reports okay okay uh what is the pleasure of the board just did we resolve what how the sign was being addressed I I didn't recall it in my notes sign yes it's the it's the existing sign uh but we're moving it to comply with the location but we want to keep the same size but we're going to move it keeping the sign but we're resetting it back because of the uh the highway requ requ yeah and they're on a County Road and the county requires dedication so they're moving everything so it's outside of the rightaway dedication and to comply with our sitb back requirements okay anything else uh I will entertain a motion Mr chairman I'd like to make a motion that we approve the conditional use variants bulk variants and preliminary and final major site plan requested by the center for education in New Jersey and and I'd like to state that we hear and how um like our Farms we we we try to to do everything to the benefit of our farmers and I can't think of a better use of a farm than to help train special need children on how to operate a farm and you know use use our farm for these special children and um thank you for providing the ton Alum that you're caring okay do I have a second second by Jose roll call Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes I just want to add on just again I know we've mentioned it a few times but uh the work you know real diligently about the paved area and the lights I I just want to reiterate that and I'll say yes Mr O'Donnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman merens based on the finding of facts because I do think the positives uh outweigh the negatives I am going to also say yes application is approved thank you very much good luck luck thank you you're welcome you're welcome good luck okay thank you for doing that yeah we will have a good night have a good evening you all that's a lot of talking and a lot of I want to get yeah I know okay um despite the time I would like to move on the next application so if anybody doesn't need a break I would like to move ahead for ahead break you guys no we're good rock and roll Mr Galvin yes sir how you doing tonight good sorry you had to wait but you know we I I understand this business I've been doing it for 35 years your patience is she just I'm sorry Mr chairman you just need to announce the okay announce the thank you I'm just on yeah well we it's yeah we've had a long night already okay into record case number ba 24-14 Ronald and Susan Springer the Ury at Bear Creek Farm it's a use variance spoke variants preliminary final site plan application to Ronald and Susan Springer as applicants and owners seeking use variants Bo variances and preliminary and final major site plan approval to continue to use an existing building on the farm to host events no new development is proposed and no food preparation is proposed on site catering will be provided by outside parties and portable restrooms will be utilized the application indicates events will not exceed 120 people and the application proposes other inight in proposes other site improvements on block 51 lot 54 494 Lakewood Farmingdale Road now Mr Galvin everything's on record thank you Andy I'm Dennis Galvin I'm with the The Firm of Davidson Eastman mun Pon I'm here tonight representing the Springers who own the Herbert uh as this board is well acquainted with you have fors in h that's a good thing we want to hold on to those forums but fors on their own are struggling so we have to find ways that we can bring them in a little bit more revenue and keep them alive all right owing to the time that you've already put in you don't need to hear a lot from me I will interject where I think you need extra information I'll get you whatever you need but my client would like to give you a brief statement so I'd like to put him under oath and then I'd like him to give you that two-page statement do you have any professionals Mr galin yes we have three profession you want to swear okay let's swear them in and then we'll do the qualifications from there Scott Kennel for our transportation if we need them and again the uh well recognized Christine conf subbing in for Ali coffin and Jim hiin tonight on this one deep raise your right hand do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth old truth nothing but the truth so help I do state your name for the record starting with Ron Springer okay johnon concept engineering Christie Kone Kone Consulting Group Scott Kennel McDon and R Associates okay we're ready to go let's proceed you can sit I can sit okay you can sit on either one those those triangular shaped things are microphones okay thanks he was ready to go so you could sit as well Denis I haven't been able to sit since second grade kids uh first thank you very much for hearing us tonight um my name is Ron Springer I'm 75 years old and 25 years ago I purchased an abandoned chicken farm in total disrepair on the property was a small two-bedroom home and a very large chicken coop that had to be demolished the site had to be used as a the site had been used as a dump and we moved hundreds of old tires and piles of mixed garbage scattered all over the site we built the barn in greenhouse and the dream was to create a beautiful Farm where the community could come buy our plants feed our goats and chickens and enjoy an outdoor experience despite all we invested and all of our hard work became apparent that the economics of the farm were not sustainable one of our patrons asked if they could have a family celebration on the farm and we were able to host several successful events became clear that this might be a revenue source that would allow us to keep the farm solvent uh this evening is a culmination of years of seeking a way to gain approval from the township that would allow us to continue our life on the farm that we love uh we do love this farm and we feel it's a wonderful asset to the community and we really hope that you guys can help us save it thank you very much before you go yes so you I think so so Dennis you had said that you're maximizing the number of potential people to 125 is said the wise the wise thing to say is there's a u what's it what's it a garden it's a greenhouse yeah we have a greenhouse and in the greenhouse we can see is it 50 or 60 50 on the greenhouse we can fit 50 people I think most of our functions are going to be in that Greenhouse going to be 50 people but if we put a tent outside in really nice weather we can double that capacity and go to 120 okay and when we were in discussions with the professionals they said hey what do you think the most you would have out there and 120 is the most and we've talked about this you agree your those kind of events will happen on a Saturday or Sunday right for the almost always yeah I would say so yes right so we're only talking about one of those events on a Saturday and one of those events on a Sunday and again that would be outdoors would have to be that kind of time nice weather I just was I just wanted to make sure that you were handcuffing yourself with the 120 number and that if you need it to be 200 or what have you I would hate for you to to limit yourself and then when you get wildly successful have to come back if we get wildly successful we'll come back okay but the reality is I believe I've listened to them long enough over the last few months I'm confident that they're not going over that and it won't be there's no we don't serve anybody it's we're going to provide the building people are going to come in and use the building so we're not creating any food right you're not we don't do do any service right well the the number has a lot to do with the parking we only have enough parking for so many cars and we we don't want to exceed that so it's comfortable for the the number of cars we can accommodate I understand I just wanted to make sure you weren't kind of hamstringing yourself I gave it a lot of thought okay perfect that's all we needed more we would be asking for more we would design more parking this is what they can operate and what they feel is enough to help them make the farm more functional MH and it's still going to operate as a farm right yes okay so and they have other things that they do there through the course of the year you uh you youve got some PR pre-prepared food and you sell plants well you sell plants and we grow plants and um grow flowers cutting flowers red twig dog woods and it gifts store too right yes yeah my wife plugs that she's a fre yes the barn is is more of a gift store that hopefully most of the things in there kind of relate to the garden and you heard it in the last case you know when you have a farm there are certain things you can do Under the right the Farm Act and what we're trying to do is by trying to give these Farms extra Revenue we have to make them zoning compliant and once we try to make them zon and compliant we have to we have to work there's work that has to be done we've done our work we're here to present okay that's that's accurate good okay Mr Panka here you do you need me anymore front go sit and relax okay come back we come back okay the only question for qualification for me unless anybody else uh you're Prof licensed professional professional engineer for the last 50 years yeah and it's current still current okay that's all thank you you're welcome um just for very briefly the the pro property is on um County Route uh 5547 Lakewood Farmingdale Road it's in the AR6 Zone it contains the farm use a residential dwelling where the Springers live at a woodframe building green houses are shed and the stone parking lot so the parking lots about 44 spaces between the front and the back most of the parkings in the back it's existing um everything here is existing we're not adding new buildings we're not adding new pavement except for maybe a handicap spot uh and we're trying to keep everything as it is there's no issue with drainage uh storm water management and we did go to g a year or so ago and got the o i and the FHA so th those have been determined ahead of time and we made an application for plary and final site plan uh we have the fre soil approval for an exemption because we're not disturbing more than uh 5,000 square fet and we do have a a traffic engineer who will speak towards the traffic a traffic impact analysis was given to the board and as Ron mentioned the greenhouse is used for the events most of the events are small events these are baby baby birthday parties showers Bridal things so most of them would probably be less than 50 people and and they did have several events that did occur here in the past for a short time and then they they stopped those events at the time of covid Etc and now they're back after a couple of years trying to get a approval so we the 150 120 people are is a good number with the parking we have with 44 spaces again there's no food preparation uh and the and the the beauty and uniqueness of the site if you've been there it's a really beautiful F uh visitors have been asking them for years to do small events and that's what they want to do here to to save the farm um uh keep in mind that the events happen in the usually spring summer and fall in summertime it's too hot in the greenhouse so they Ed the tent next to the greenhouse for for events spring and and fall they can use both of them when the weather is appropriate uh they think there might be several weddings a year but this is not the major thing that's just for the worst case scenario 120 people um we did have Sherie spirro go to the site meet with the Springers and discuss the Four Season buffer uh and what she asked them to do between their existing home and the house next door they're going to comply with her recommendations for for buffering to make that work uh there was a number of ranches required which will be handled by uh Christine Kone uh and there are waivers for curving for the parking areas we have we're going to put in bumper blocks and we've been back to the county of Mammoth and we've done some extra work in front which the board hasn't seen except for the one plan we did which was a uh circulation plan that circulation plan was given to the fire department official who approved the plan that we have and we're going to narrow in the entrance way a little bit so it's easier to get in and out can I go back to the parking lot I know Charlie's itching to go but I just have one comment before you go personally I prefer no bumper blocks because I feel like if you have an event and you had staff parking the vehicles they would park closer to one another than the bumper blocks plus they're also a pain in the neck for the farm use to use that area to get equipment around so I would just recommend that when you have those larger events like the 120 person events that could you commit to having staff help like guide people to park so that not a valet but more like directed parking because I feel like you could probably get more cars in that area I I understand it's shown on the plan ill like for illustr illustrative purposes but I feel like you probably could get more more than those spaces so if you have someone that works on the farm that could help how about how about cones too Jen I mean cones would be great too I just feel like she said I just feel like the bumper blocks are a recipe for problems out there I would I totally agree I think the cones would be sufficient we yeah we do have staff that does park the cars help traffic come in it out and that's a great idea and we we comply I mean obviously it's up to the board but I would recommend not having the bumper blocks I feel like it's going to be impediment to you operating the farm itself it is get us bumper blocks I know you want them I know you desperately want them I can't thank you enough for the obervation because we have to figure out how to get our trucks through that's what I'm saying I feel like you can manage it in that doing it because we thought we needed to but we can park the cars with people too I would recommend against it I would just say I don't take any exception to it either usually when we require that it's on large sites when you have these gravel areas you want to kind of put some kind of barrier so it doesn't keep creeping and creeping this site's pretty developed you know there's a lot of woods around it the property although it seems large in area a lot of it is encumbered by some environmentally restricted areas so I have no issue for it and then Dennis do you mind if I just jump in and ask John a bunch of pointed questions okay all right so um you said there's no site improvements proposed everything's existing so anytime we get an application we look back as historically just to see what's happened so um there has been some gravel added over the years for parking um but looking at the Aerials right this has been an active Farm since like the early 2000s right Mr Panka correct and then the greenhouse areas where parking is now uh present those areas had gravel base and then also had uh a canvas structure over top of them for large parts of the year for the green houses correct that's correct yeah so we're changing impervious for impervious Central essentially when you look at the new parking as a whole it's under what would be a major development quarter acre of new impervious so I have no issue from that needing any trigger for stone War management so I wanted to get that on the record as far as the surf surfacing um the parking itself where a lot of your movements are going to occur are further back into the site a lot of times when we have concerns about the gravel it's up at the freight where you're you know you could have a lot of tracking onto the road everything parking and the K turns and getting out of sight that's all back in there so I don't have an issue with the gravel surfacing it's acted as a farm use for a number of years with this surfacing so I don't have an issue with it um as far as uh the disturbance I'll let uh in the buffer area along the west side cuz there is a residence next door I'll let Sherry and Jenna Pine to that um the east side of the property is a little unique there's the B I think it's the Bano Brook that's on Bear Swamp Brook that's on the right side of the property there's also some Wetlands you heard M Panka say they got flood air Hazard air flood Hazard area verification they got their Loi that documents that everything's existing condition that's been part of the farm use it's continuing to be used as part of the farm use it's been there for a long period of time correct correct nothing's changing there okay all right going to keep going and try to speed through the rest of this um as far as the fire Bureau they issued a memo recently saying they no have have no comment I'm happy to hear that they met and shared a circulation plan the only concern that I had was when you come in through past like the Farm Stand parking there is a little bit of a choke point uh that's like 18 feet or something that could just be one to 20 feet just so we can get two cars passing there's no issue with maybe putting a little bit more gravel making a little bit wider there we agree okay uh as far as anything along the property Frontage that's the Count's right away that's their jurisdiction we don't have any say in what does or does not happen there they do need technical relief from putting sidewalk on the Frontage because that is our ordinance requirement they can seek a waiver to pay into the fund and then of course we can't wave the fee uh they'd have to go to the governing body for that um that's and they they have they to the okay so that's put that on the record they're not putting the sidewalk they're getting the waiver then they can go to the governing body um as far as see anything else that I have on here I'm just trying to go through my letter again uh operational hours what are the typical hours of events when you have them uh 10 um well let me just say this we we think that the most events won't go beyond what we was it 10 aedd go probably later I again I just don't want you to handcuff yourself we will be guided by what the board thinks I mean I think in in most instances where we've had and and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong here where we've had um other Farms come in for events I think we said no later than 11 but no outside like music or any kind of stuff after 10 that's the change in noise correct so I you know as long as everything is inside I think 11 is a reasonable hour we' be happy with that okay then we're we're good with it what time Jen 11 11 no outside like Noise music whatever and so as as far as the as far as the parking area with existing lighting is there existing lighting have you had an issue I mean you've been operating there for some years now right has there been any issues with lack of lighting there's just some um Lighting in the back for U uh security and but there's there been no issues when they operated a couple of years ago and when there's events you have someone from the facility help coordinate the Ingress and egress to kind of facilitate abely uh as far as they're they're technically a preliminary major site plan because of the adding of the parking over the years I just want to put on the record you know they are adding parking spaces it appears to be under the 25 space threshold that would trigger like compliance that have to put in EV parking spaces if you look at the history of the property they've been parking Farm vehicles and a lot of these gravel areas you know it might be some somewhat informalized but net it's less than 25 parking spaces up want to put that on the record um and then uh bathrooms so when there's events you guys have portable bathrooms that get brought the site have portable bathrooms come in for for an event correct okay so there is a force main available along the public right here way here I I will say it's my understanding with other Township projects over at sold Memorial uh that Mera has not letting people Connect into that so I take no issue with them having portable bathrooms because they do not have the ability to connect into the public sewer um uh and then as far as the parking so you heard 120 parking spaces this uh people sorry 120 people there's I want to say 44 formalized parking spaces in the rear and there's another four in the front by I'll call it the farm standand part of it um anytime we see a kind of use like this there's no definition or ordinance for uh our parking requirement for wedding facilities or banquet facilities what we've used in the past historically has been you know houses of worship and things like that cuz that's when you might have a wedding and then a reception there after that requirement is one per three spaces so for 120 um people coming to the site 40 parking spaces would be required they have at least 44 in the back and then some additional in the front um and then as far as we talked about the county rway stuff that's really all I have I'll let Jen ask any questions regarding to the buffer and then operational from the use if there's anything else that needs to be asked but I think that's all I have from a sa plan perspective anybody from I'm good we we did ask for a u uh we have rushers containers way in the back by the parking lot we asked not to do the enclosures again trying to save money to save this Farm that's it other than that that's it I'm not really a big fan of that no I think it should be put in an enclosure if it's it's not if there's no enclosure then those things tend to migrate across SES and it could become problematic from a parking point of view so I I would say even though you guys know that I'm a big advocate of the masonry enclosure I'm not looking to break the bank here I think if you did a nice board on board enclosure with like a gate in the corner so it could roll out when they come to take it out and roll it back in I think that's a good compromise to not break the bank for the farm use but also create an enclosure that we agree perfect on to my next yeah you okay yeah let's keep this don't get comfortable I won't so so do uh do you have an opinion about the parking on a site yes I mean Charlie kind of stole my thunder but yes real quick qualifications just so it's on record Scott Kennel K NE L with McDon and Ray Associates located at 1431 Lakewood Road Manasquan I have over 40 years of traffic Transportation Planning and have appeared before this board you're current with everything right I'm qualified as a traffic expert I'm not in LIC I qualifies a traffic expert we accept your qualifications so yeah and as it relates to the parking is as Charlie indicated that the industry standard is one per three we have 40 and that generally includes also employees or staff that you would have and now and you come up with that factor of one space per three guests so we have an excess of 40 spaces more than adequate uh the other thing I'll State too is that those larger events will occur on a Saturday where the traffic volumes are approximately 30% less than you have commuter period so that's in in the D we've provided analysis showing the driveways can function well within acceptable levels of service and the other thing last thing I'll say is the county requests to create a kind of a more conforming driveway is a significant Improvement in my opinion right now it's basically a 60 foot wide uncontrolled access we're going to create with curb returns a more uh traditional driveway design which I think will be an improvement to the site did you guys have questions Charlie no I mean I'll just go back to Jen's point is you know I don't think we're trying to hamstring any applicant or anything like that like the parking on site certainly works if there was any intent at any point in time to use like some shared parking off site or anything like that like now would be the time to bring it up and present to the board if you wanted to go above 120 employees we just hate to see people have to come back when it could have been included as part of the application underst I think there's sweet spot here is smaller events 40 to 50 people okay board members uh excuse me Jennifer didn't think so board members I have a quick question does the staff help guide people from the street into the parking lot when you have events it is a it is a two-lane Highway soic Sally have a does that out by the entrance of the uh where where they come in the driveway there somebody with a flashlight and an orange vest there then they direct them back to the back where there are other people there to show them where to park off the street though yes yes okay yes cuz it is there's no stop sign there they they're just coming straight down the street there's no stop sign there yeah no thank it's not that far past the light though correct the is not that maybe 800 900,000 ft yeah the picture showing it yeah it would take me minute or two to ride that on my bike so if there's no more questions uh we'll go to Christine go to Christine thank you close it up you got any in hi I already swear you're ready to go I'm laughy because you had piles of books for the last case and here you've got three p papers Jim Jim did all the work on this I'm just here subing for him tonight he gave me all the words to say good evening um qualified I assume still as a licensed professional planner my licenses are current and valid so this is an application again in your AR6 Zone to keep one of your farms in town sustainable which is a good thing because in 2022 again the land use plan element of your master plan recommended that banquet facilities has permitted conditional uses in for Farms with Q Farm assessment and right why was that recommendation in the master plan your planner who wrote it is here but I would imagine it was in all likelihood to make our farm sustainable consistent with the AR6 Vision which is to per uh preserve the rural character so um obviously the commercial venue is not a permitted use in the A6 that's why we're here for the D1 so the board does have to find that the use is particularly suited right unlike an inherently beneficial use where we don't have that burden here for a non- inherently use non inherently beneficial use we have to find that there's something about this site that is particularly suitable for the proposed use I think the size of the site at 142 Acres together with the existing layout right you heard um Mr uh if your engineer just testify and speak about the layout how the the K turns and and the majority of the parking and the lineing chair will occur in the back of the site so the site is actually quite well laid out to host um small venues um so I think that the site is certainly particularly suitable to host commercial venues um as far as the positive criteria statutorily you have to find one or more purposes of the land use law would be Advanced by the grant of this application um there have been six identified um in the report the letter report that was prepared by Mr Higgins I don't know if that was shared with you but I can certainly testify that criteria a promoting the general welfare preserving a farm consistent with your master plan criteria C providing adequate light are light air and open space while we don't have the required buffers um we certainly are a farm and the buffers are intended to preserve Farms so we and we are not adding any additional buildings on site so we'll certainly continue to maintain adequate light air and open space um another criteria is D which is to ensure that development of individual municipalities does not conflict with the development of the state um and certainly allowing farming issues to farming uses to continue will promote the purposes of the county and state with regard to promoting farms and agricultural type uses um criteria F talks about encouraging the appropriate and efficient efficient expenditure of public funds by the coordination of public development with land use policies so here you have the ability to allow a farm to continue and Preserve it without having for any um to preserve its use but not that you're preserving the farm you're preserving the use of the farm by allowing for the continued commercial viability without expending any public funds so that's good and then criteria G which talks about providing sufficient space in appropriate locations again um criteria J also which talks about promoting the conservation of historic sites districts and Open Spaces to um prevent urban sprawl and degradation of the environment through improper use of land so again statutorily if you find one we meet our burden of proof with respect to the positive criteria I just cited one two 3 four five six of them for you um so I think that certainly we need our burden of proof with respect to the positive criteria and then when you look at the negative criteria it does not ask you to hold this or any other applicant to a standard that there be no detriment but just the benefits of the gr of the variance outweigh any detriment and here the preservation of the farm um certainly the preservation of the farm use certainly a outweigh any of the detriment and particularly um that we are consistent with the vision for the AR6 Zone which is to preserve rural uses so I do think that this applicant meets its burden of proof the other thing I'll say with the negative criteria and the impact on the public good is um the applicant has been hosting these type of events here with no no incident to uh to the public or negative incident so I see no reason why that wouldn't continue to um do to be able to operate here in such a manner if the board were to move favorably on the variant so I have nothing further onir I think we need our statutory burden of proof for the grant of the D1 use and all of the the bulks which would be subsumed into this when you're dealing with a D1 use to introduce a use any of the bulk criteria that you violate would be subsumed into the duse I have nothing to add to that I just want to say that I want to spend a couple minutes talking about the buffer relief um which I don't disagree get subsumed but unlike other applicants shie has been working with the applicant's team to come up with what we think is a more reasonable requirement right um up by their home there's there's another their neighboring uh their neighbors next to them have a house and so that's like a typical residential property over there um and you could see right there um to the right of the what was that a patio the patio space there on the his property you see the four white um umbrellas I guess they are wait but yes yes tell us what to do we're going to do it yes so in this area over to the right a little more there's a they have an evergreen buffer there it's just that section the trees don't have any lower limbs so that's where it would be you know a reasonable spot to add add plant material like shrubs just to fill that space in but he has a really nice buffer going down uh the side of the property there and when you get towards the back the buffer is even more dense right it becomes really a regular Woods um so like that would be in order for them to comply with our buffer requirement they'd have to take out mature trees plant it's not worth dist stir area I would recommend leaving it so technically the application requires relief from for requirements but I think Sher has looked at all the trees and would agree that the back of the property is already heavily wooded it would make no sense to replace that and then just the supplementing and I would just ask that you know John's office work with Sher and wherever it's needed to supplement in some understory along that coincident property line I think that would meet the intent of the buffer separation so um I would take no exception to the from the buffer and I know I never say that so you might yeah no that that's why we have a recording secretary yes there's a record of it but I think that that's compromise uh Miss beam just a question to that do we know if the neighbor has expressed any concern or any opinion on that they were noticed with the application so come up there in public that would be the time okay so and Mr chair I just want to make two comments so um I would just say if the applicant has any intent in the future to want to pave the gravel parking lot I would say we captured as part of's approval that like they wouldn't have to come back for site plan it's impervious you know it would be changing late to late it's not at a major development or anything like that just to get as part of if they ever have a desire in the future I just want to put that on record and then if public sewer does become available and they have a desire to connect as long as they're operating within the uh maximum number of people for the events and everything like that I don't think they should have to come back to the board for a quote unquote expansion of the use I just want to put that on the record so they're protected in the future if they want to do these things in the future so I don't think you want to put a paid Drive uh parking lot in the back right I'm not saying they have to to ever they want to I agree we we've given careful consideration of what we're putting in front of you if it's uh you know a great success and it gets a lot bigger I don't know you know what you know it's certainly not the plan it's not a bait and switch this is what we're offering you is what we intended that's not at all you guys be great I'm just saying if you want to if they want to P it at some point future I don't want to have to have come back and we say and we say Charlie's awesome we agree that's on the record pave the existing par if they if they want to okay okay thanks Charlie that's a good thing the only thing that I feel bad about is I know that there's a really terrific picture of the uh of the of the building inside with all the tables and chairs and I don't know where it is and the pile of pictures it's been provided it would have been a picture that we sent in that showed the uh the greenhouse the green house with I mean maybe while we're looking for it it's it's not it's not really wasn't important just there there you go I thought it was very very nice and attractive and a and a good use of that foreign facility uh Mr Gavin uh and with that um I would just like to express uh and hopefully have you acknowledge that because of the change of use um Farms do get some kind of an exemption with regards to green houses and how they're set up you're going to be changing the use by putting people inside here and there's been a recent change in UCC code with regards to tents or open air structures uh with regards to um uh tying down and having uh uh uh proper uh wind and load on them so uh your clients will have to apply to the building department uh to ensure that tents or the greenhouse meet those uh new requirements in the UCC no we don't have a choice okay and we're TR to cooperate never I just don't want them to get caught off guard that it's going to be a requirement they have to tie down to 10 tie down or make some kind of other modifications sa explain it afterwards okay at this time unless anybody has a question from the board I'll going to open it up to public make a motion sir do I have a second all in favor the meeting has now been open to the public if you'd like to come up state your name and your home address good evening my name is Daniel Smith I live at 500 Lakewood Farmingdale Road Mr Smith do you swear the testimony you give it be the truth to choose nothing but the something got uh I just I don't have any complaint uh we've lived there several years now we're neighbors I've heard talk of buffers and stuff I don't understand really the need for it because if anybody had a problem it would be us we're we're next door uh you don't need to Landscaping supplemented between your property I don't feel that no I mean I have a neighbor between us and our yard is there we're the next house over so you're not immediately to the south of the property we live south of the property not immediately no you you have the picture up again can we have the your one house away what we have the shin residence next directly next to them we live next to Ralph Shin right um we've never had an incident uh we actually missed having the uh open air parties and so on we get a free concert out of we sit back get your glass of wine sit on the deck and enjoy the music uh there's never been a problem we did have one incident several years ago su's chickens came over to do a meet and greet with mine and uh he taught me a very valuable thing if you want get them back Cheerios so uh Cheerios we have no complaint they've been fine neighbors and we want to see them succeed so if that's any help thank you so much anybody else Andy she doesn't have to be sworn in again right a different application gimal 97 Victory Road I do uh just wanted to uh make a comment and thank all of you um I do see that the vibe is very different in here and I really appreciate the support for the farm uh it is a beautiful farm and I know that you've been there and these are um great great owners great people that are definitely going to comply um and just the ability to have the event to supplement uh the farming income is definitely something that will help to be uh sustainable so I appreciate that thank you thank you buy good evening Mark pry to Castle Court Mr T will be the truth truth nothing but the truth help yes thank you I'm going to S stick around till 10:00 I'm going to say something chairman merens has a nice ring to it I like it good stuff congratulations good evening everybody and professionals um obviously the whole farming stuff here in the community has been you know a hot topic for quite a while now uh I was here when Calo Cardin came before this uh board and there was a very good energy in the room that night you know regarding trying to get them over their hurdles uh this I guess is a little bit different application because they're not here begging for forgiveness on some level but um you know I had a chance to to meet Ron and Susie and I think they're great people I've been over to the the Ury many of us have it's a beautiful place uh I'm happy that they decided to move forward with doing the whole site plan approval process I know that there was some ordinances and stuff and we were trying to streamline you know the town was trying to work on you know streamlining the process but they decided to do this process so they're kind of I guess in some way pioneering this uh this process I think you guys are really like the first you know farm that has come here asking for permission for special occasion events and yeah patter yeah yeah but I think they're probably a little bigger industry going on here so you know it's just nice to see that you know we're here there's like what Betty said there's there's a good vibe in the room and good energy what I what I really want to acknowledge I want to acknowledge the professionals because what I really liked is that you guys have been a little bit like like Forward Thinking about like you know some of these things and like the number of people and you know do you want to maybe pay this in the future you know we know that these approvals run with the land and there's a very good chance that in not in too distant future that Ron and sus may say hey we're going to hang this up and we're going to maybe try to sell it to another you know young couple that want to take this over and run this for another you know generation you know and and this is going to bring immense value to their to their operation over there that you know they have an approval that maybe gives them a little bit more than what they originally asked for and I really applaud you guys for you know kind of goting them into you know asking for a little bit more it doesn't hurt to have a little bit more than have to come back you know and that's nice that you guys did that so I just want to just acknowledge everybody that's involved in all of this and you know that um I wish them all the best I'm sure you guys do as well thank you thanks Mark thank you Mark anybody else seeing none do I have a motion to close motion CL second by Jose all in favor yes okay Mr Gavin anything else anything else from the board professionals wisely submit go ahead let's let's complete it okay at this time I'd like to entertain a motion Mr chair I'd like to make a motion to uh to approve this application uh you know we definitely have in the past supported forms in this way and I think this is a great use and uh I vote Yes or I make a motion to approve do I have a second Miss scotson you're not allowed I'm sorry sorry I know I know I know yeah she's second in spirit she's second I okay Nick second roll call who was second I'm sorry Nick okay Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr odonnell yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman Martens nine years here I've had to uh vote on a lot of applications but the patience that both of you have gone you know shown for the town and I cannot thank you enough for sticking with it and I want you to succeed and I vote Yes as well application is approved we got two done in one night that was Mr um Galvin can you maybe do more I mean that was that was that was it very efficient Mr G so we got to take them we got to take them as they come okay thanks a lot is there any further business of the board before we make a motion to close I'll make a motion to close Mr chair okay Mr uh Hughes made a motion to close do you have a second all in favor I know