Heat. Heat. Everybody ready? >> Good evening everybody. Lisa, can we have an opening statement please? Did he just say >> I'm up? Okay. >> Yeah, you're up. >> All right. How Town Township Zoning
Board Meeting March 23rd, 2026, I hereby declare this meeting of the Hall Township Zoning Board to be open, adequate notice having been given pursuant to the New Jersey Open Public Meeting Act in the following manner. First, on December 16th, 2025, a copy of said notice was emailed to the Asbury
Park Press and the Star Ledger. Second, on December 16th, 2025, a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell. Third, on December 16th, 2025, said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the Howell
Township Municipal Building, 4567 Route 9, Howell Township, New Jersey. in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety. Please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room. Furthermore, no smoking is not permitted in the
municipal building. Please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on How Township TV77. Thank you. >> Thank you, Lisa. Could we have a roll call? >> Yes. >> Mr. Barillo >> here. >> Mr. Caner >> here.
>> Mr. Hughes >> here. >> Mr. O'Donnell >> here. >> Mr. Rosco is absent. Mr. Ryan >> present. >> Miss Scottson >> here. >> Mr. Kabarakis >> here. >> Chairman Merren, >> I'm here. At this time, could it could
everybody rise for the pledge of allegiance and a big moment of silence for our troops overseas. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you. Uh, Lee, uh, first, uh, Andy, can you swear on the professionals? >> Do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do.
>> State your names for the record. >> Charles Kliff, >> Jennifer Beam. >> Professionals are sworn, Mr. Chairman. >> Okay. >> And make note that uh, Mr. Rosco is in attendance. >> Okay. Before we go to the minutes, I am
going to go to the correspondence because I think it'd be better to do this first. So, Lisa, do we have any correspondence tonight? >> We do. >> Uh, Mr. John Jackson, the attorney for case BA219, Steuart Street LLC, has requested that
the application be carried to the next available hearing date with no further notice. Uh, the next available date would be April 27th, 2026. >> Okay. Okay. Anybody here for case number
BA25-9 Tour Street Sewart Street LLC? This is going to be carried to April 27th and that is no further notice on that, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And I apologize for those coming for the
meeting uh tonight, but unfortunately this is what happens sometimes. So appreciate. Thank you. Okay. Next order of business is the minutes. Approval of minutes for regular meeting
July 28th, 2025. Eligible voters Burillo, Caner, O'Donnell, Ryan, Scottson, Cabaracus, and Merens. Do I have a motion? >> Make a motion to approve. >> M Mr. Burillo with Amory with the
second. Roll call. >> Mr. Burillo. >> Yes. >> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell. >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan, >> yes. >> Miss Scottson, >> yes. >> Mr. Kabarakus, >> yes. >> Chairman Mertens, >> yes. >> Minutes are approved.
>> Okay. Regular meeting August 25th, 2025. Eligible voters. Verillo, Caner, Hughes, Oddonnell, Ryan, Scottson, Kabaracus, and Merren. Do I have a motion? I >> make a motion. >> Mr. Mr. Kabarakus with the second. >> Who was the Who's the uh
>> That was Mr. Caner. >> Caner and Caner. Okay. Roll call. >> Mr. Burillo. >> Yes. >> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Hughes? >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell? >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan? >> Yes. >> Miss Scottson? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kabarakus? >> Yes. >> Chairman Merren?
>> Yes. Minutes are approved. >> Regular meeting September 15, 2025. Eligible voters Burillo, Caner, Hughes, Odano, Rosco, Brian, Kabarakus, and Merens. >> We'll make a motion to approve the minutes. >> Mr. Mr. Rodano with the motion.
>> I'll second. >> Mr. Hughes with the second. Roll call. >> Mr. Hughes. >> Mr. Varillo. >> Yes. >> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Hughes. >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell. >> Yes. >> Mr. Rosco. >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan. >> Yes. >> Mr. Kabarakus.
>> Yes. >> Chairman Merren. >> Yes. >> Minutes are approved. >> Regular meeting October 20th, 2025. Elrova voters. Caner, Hughes, O'Donnell, Arasco, Ryan, Scottson, Kabaracus, and
Merens. Motion >> motion to >> Amarie with the motion. >> Second. >> Second by Mr. Rosco. Roll call. >> The second was Mr. Rosco. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Uh, Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Hughes? >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell? >> Yes.
>> Mr. Rosco? >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan? >> Yes. >> Miss Scottson? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kabarakus? >> Yes. >> Chairman Merren? >> Yes. Minutes are approved. >> Regular meeting October 27th, 2025. Elwell voters, Burillo, Caner, Odono,
Rosco, Ryan, Scottson, Cabaracus, and Merens. Do I have a motion? >> I'll make a motion to approve. >> Mr. Mr. Burillo with the motion. >> Second. >> Second by him. Roll call. >> Mr. Burillo. >> Yes. >> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell.
>> Yes. >> Mr. Mr. Rosco. >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan. Yes, >> Miss Scottson. >> Yes, >> Mr. Kaparakus. >> Yes, >> Chairman Merren. >> Yes. >> Minutes are approved. >> Okay, one more. October 10th, 2025, regular meeting. Eligible voters,
Burillo, Caner, O'Donnell, Ryan, Scottson, Kabaracus, and Merren. Do I have a motion? >> I'll make a motion to approve. >> Mr. Caner with the motion. >> Second. >> Second by Mr. Ryan. Roll call. >> Mr. Burillo. >> Uh, Mr. Mr. Chair, did you say October
10th? Did you say >> 20? November 10th. >> Oh, I thought you said October 10th, but >> I did. I take that back. November 10th. >> Okay. >> Still okay. >> We're still on the same motion and second. >> Mr. Burillo then? >> Yes.
>> Mr. Caner? >> Yes. >> Mr. O'Donnell? >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan? >> Yes. >> Miss Scottson? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kabarakas? >> Yes. >> Chairman Martens? >> Yes. >> Minutes are approved. >> Okay. Applications
before the board tonight are any other resolutions. I'm sorry, Lisa. Okay. Applications before the board tonight is case number BA25-20 Nurus Nick Zukus Boke Variance for
single dwelling on unimproved street. Application of Nurgus Zukus as applicant and owner seeking approval to construct a 2,322 ft dwelling on an unimproved street at
the subject property. They the applicant is also proposing an 18t by 20US 240 foot roadway extension to provide access to the proposed dwelling. Additional improvements
include an ashvault driveway, septic system, portable well, concrete walkway, and recharge trench on premise known as block 185, lots 53 and 54, Birch Street. This application was originally scheduled to be heard on February 23rd,
2026, but the meeting was cancelled due to a little bit of snow. Expiration is June 2nd, 2026. Good evening. >> Good evening, Mr. Members of the board. >> John Jackson on behalf of Nick Zukus.
I'm here with Mr. Zukus as well as Mr. Civ and Brian Collus, our engineer. We go to page two of the PowerPoint. Um, and if we can mark the PowerPoint um as a separate exhibit, pages 1 through 13. So, as we could see on that exhibit, um,
our our parcel is not exactly landlocked because there's a paper street that goes out to it. >> John Jackson, I'm sorry. So, this will be marked. There was something pre-marked as A8 for John Jackson presentation. I just I don't But you just submitted it tonight, so I'm not sure.
>> That's probably this. >> Had you let Eileen know this was coming or something? >> Yeah, that's probably this. >> Okay. So, >> so this is a >> PowerPoint uh 20 uh 13 pages. >> So, 15 pages, I'm sorry. So, as you can
see, um there there's a a paper street and uh what we're basically seeking to do is just kind of extend that paper street, make it more or less into a driveway to service one single family home. Um and that that's the rel relief we need under
the MLUL. you can get relief for building on a uh street that is not improved approve improved to municipal standards provided that a board approves it and that's what we're seeking tonight. So um we have Mr. Collus uh that the house is there shown on page
three. Um we think we have all the appropriate outside agency approvals etc. And it's really just that simple. So thank you for your indulgence. If I could have Mr. Civ uh sworn and qualified as an expert in the engineer field of engineering. >> Okay. Is anybody else uh testifying? Yes, Mr. Brian Coly. Uh, engineer.
>> Okay. Have him come up and then we'll get everybody at one shot. >> I say engineer architect. I'm sorry. >> Do you sway the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth to help you out. >> Okay. >> I do. >> Okay. State your names for the record. Spell your last. >> Robert Civ. S I V E. Professional
engineer. >> Brian Kis. C O L L I S. Registered architect. >> Okay. >> Thank you. You recognize Mr. Yeah, I recognize him quite a bit and um on we have to do it on record. So, uh
qualifications. >> I'm a licensed professional engineer and professional planner in the state of New Jersey. Graduate of New Jersey Institute of Technology. Have over 31 years experience in the engineering field. I testified before this >> active license. >> It is active. >> Yeah, I thought it was. We approved your
credentials. Welcome back. >> Thank you. Um if we could put the plot plan up on the screen, would that be the best place for you to uh store it, Mr. Um, sure. We can start with the plot plan. Uh, and I'll just quickly describe the site real quick. Uh, that's the survey. So, if we can just go one more to the plot plan, but as indicated, the
site is identified as block 185, tax lots 53 and 54 is along the north side of the paper road, Birch Street, which is a side street off of Colts Neck Road, approximately 1500 ft south of Route 33. The property has an area of
approximately 1.16 acres with access from an existing partially paved and partially gravel driveway from Coulseneck Road. The property is located within the R3 residential zone of the township with the westerly portion of the property generally unwood and the
remainder or the balance of the site wooded. The westerly portion of the property which on your screen is the left side is traversed by the mink run which is a C1 stream and that is the location where the green pointer is on the left or west side of the property
and the associated wetlands and you can see the line that has the little what looks like weeds on it. That's the wetlands line. The property has received an NJD wetlands letter of interpretation establishing that wetlands boundary and the 50-foot buffer associated with it.
And we've also got an NJD flood hazard general permit number six for the disturbance within the buffer area. So, as I'm sure the board knows, when you have a C1 stream, there's a 300T buffer associated with that stream. That 300T buffer line would bring the buffer all
the way out to this location. Um, we do have a permit from the D to disturb the plan you see here. As part of that, we are clearing point I think it's 0.1 acres of trees. It's just in this location right here is where we're proposing to remove the
trees. Uh, we did have some back and forth with the DP. We actually had a bigger house located farther east. After going back and forth with the DP, we've arrived at this house location and size to accommodate our general permit. And that brings us, as Mr. Jackson said to,
we are proposing a two-story, two-car garage, single family residential house with a septic system. The septic systems in the front of the house. It is approved by the health department. And we are proposing to extend the what's currently a gravel driveway which
comes off of Coltsneck Road, crosses the mink run, and bends across our property. We're proposing to straighten it out and install it within the Birch Street rightway. We are proposing an 18 foot wide driveway. I've talked to Charlie and my understanding is we they'd like to see that upgraded to a 20 foot wide
pave driveway which we'll agree to do. Um again, we do have our D permits for the 18t wide driveway which can accommodate the wider driveway to 20 ft as well. Um that's why we're here tonight is to get that variance because we are not
proposing to improve Birch Street to the township roadway standard. You would typically see a 28 foot wide road with curbed sidewalk. We are not proposing to do that. We're proposing just to construct this uh the driveway at the 20 foot wide width paved. Um per the NJDP
geo web site to the east of our property is additional wetlands and the ming have a hard time saying it. Mhinga mahon brook. Um I don't foresee the need to extend Bur Street farther east because of those wetlands and brook. But in the
event that it does need to be extended for some future development, what we're proposing is not precluding that from happening. >> So, and Mr. Chair, if I could just jump in on that fact. So, um what Mr. Civ said is correct. 28 ft wide would typically be required for um like a
residential neighborhood type of street per RSIS. Um but they do have requirements for rural street and rural lanes where traffic is on the order of like 500 or less trips a day. um which only requires 20 ft for the maximum um for for improvement. So that's why we
require 20 ft. And um we're not calling it a driveway because it is a township paper street right away. So um if they do improve it, it's going to have to be 20 foot wide and we would like them to go all the way out to Coltsneck Road with that. It looks like the property
that fronts on Colts Neck Road may have paved, you know, the stone driveway that was there. Uh the township's concern is we don't have any details or approvals for that. So that could be an inch and a half of asphalt. The first time that the town or someone comes here to to plow that, it could just rip it right back up
and then you know we've got a nice 20 foot wide road after beating up uh asphalt. So we would like them to go all the way out to Cold Snack Road. Um what Mr. Civ said I don't disagree with. Uh the properties to the east are mapped on Geo Web as wetlands. I can tell you
there used to be a north south rightway Willow Street that the township actually vacated here in 2017 and anything east of that so immediately to the east of these property of the like 14 or 16 properties to the east and to the south
um I want to say almost all but one of those have were purchased in the early 2000s by Mammoth County um for conservation purposes. So there should not be any development on those properties um in the foreseeable future. So I I take no exception to the 20 foot
wide. There is an existing stream crossing as Mr. Civ alluded to. There are some concrete pipes that run underneath that that is our rightway. We don't have any record of the township installing those. So we do want to have Mr. Civ add a note to the plan about those being inspected and if any repair
needs to be made that it be done prior to them paving the road. And then also with the narrowness of the road and and the proximity to the banks dropping off, we do want to see a timber guide rail on either side. Um, you know, 10 ft either side of the pipe crossing just for
safety purposes. Again, if this was a residential driveway, we might be looking at it differently, but from the township's perspective, we have to look be looking at it from like a liability perspective. So, Rob, >> yeah. What is the length? I'm sorry and you might have answered this, but what's
the length of the actual road? That would be Bird Street approx. >> So, it's not going to be a road. It'll be a driveway. >> No. >> No, it's a road. >> It's not going to be a driveway. We just did you not just listen to what Charlie just said? >> I heard what he said. I just >> And he said it's not a driveway. It's
>> I apologize. >> Yeah. And and the distinction is there are some platted lots on the south side of of Birch Street. Now, whether they're all developable or not, you know, someone's going to have to do some due diligence on those. If the streams and the repairarian and the wetlands are
similar like they are on this property, you know, maybe there's one home that can get built there, uh, but someone would still have the right to build on it because this is a township rightaway. So, this property owner, even though they're being required to, you know, pave the roadway all the way out there, uh, they don't have exclusive rights to
it. So, >> and the town is obligated. It is into the public road, they will plow it. Correct. So, I know I had a comment about there and that was typically when we have like landlock parcels, we want to make it clear that the property owner is responsible for maintaining that. While we could certainly ask for a condition, I don't know how that we
would impose it because it's a township rightaway. And while this applicant might agree to it, you know, 10 years from now, someone else would >> Well, getting back to my original question, how long is it till becomes a driveway? >> It's not ever going to become a driveway. Okay. Well, to answer your question, it's 350 ft long from
Coltsneck Road to where we'd end the pavement. Then it turns up into the property and when it crosses the property line, that obviously becomes a driveway for that house. >> And that length is >> That's not really what he was asking, Rob. He's asking how long Birch Street
is. >> Yeah. So, Birch Street is 350 ft long, >> neck road to where we stopped paving. >> And then it becomes a driveway for that house. And that's about 25ish feet long from the property line to the house. >> Okay.
>> So the issue of the snow removal, we're going to have to maybe decide among us whether >> No. >> No. >> It's a township issue. >> It's a township issue. Okay. Okay. Y >> go back to that picture you just put up. >> Yes. >> So that's Coltneck Road in on this
bottom >> and that's Bird Street, >> right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> where's where about more or less is the house? >> Going to be behind the house that you see >> back and to the left. >> Okay. >> Okay. That's much >> Yeah, that's Yeah, that makes it a little easier.
>> So, so >> they're actually building houses, >> Charlie. >> Okay, >> I got a question. You said um I know it's a road, an inch and a half of asphalt. >> Yeah. So, so the first 50 to 100 ft if
you go back to that street view or Yeah, John without gravel though. >> So, it's paved. His survey shows it as gravel, but the one of the private property owners adjoining that must have paved that on their own. The township didn't do that. So, we don't have any guarantee that they built it to the
township standard. So, with this application, we want them to take that out, repave all the way to Colt Road. So, we know we're getting an actual base and top. So that way if we plow it, we're not going to be coming through there and ripping up, you know, an inch, an inch and a half. >> You missed the base part. >> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Yeah. And then just to add to the two, so the the property to the north of this uh looks like it it was a farm track. There was a house on it. So this at one point there was a driveway going through the property to that five or so years ago. Someone came in, knocked down the house, put in a bigger house, and they
have a separate driveway. So, um, this did have a history of being used for vehicular access before. What the applicant's looking to do with it now. So, >> okay, that's that's adequate. >> What about the um the length of the driveway from the house, like from the
garage doors to the southern property line? We can't read the any of the um the numbers on the on the plot plan here. So, >> he said 25 ft. >> 25 ft. Okay. And and is that >> assuming that's an acceptable for the
>> fine? As long as the building meets the setbacks, they can have as long a driveway as they want. If they meet the coverage, they meet the coverage. >> So, so I I think we want to put a couple things on the record, right? So, um I would recommend that we make it a requirement that trash collection for this property be on Colts Neck Road and
that they also put a mailbox in there so that way the mail people aren't doing K turns in and out of their driveway every day. Now, if a firetruck has to come down there, god forbid, you know, hopefully that never happens, there's going to need to be an acknowledgement in the resolution that they have the
ability to come on the applicant's driveway to do a kturn if they need to do that in the event of a fire. Um, >> relate to that. Um, now it's like to actually have like a formal culde-sac per RSIS would be a significant undertaking for a single
property and uh I don't even know that they would be able to get a flood hazard area permit to be able to do that. Um, so I think the agreement that the driveway can be serviced as a as a turnaround I think is important. Um I would also just note right
um they do need relief of our stream corridor and our stream corridor buffer ordinance. Um >> but I will note that they do have the flood hazard area permit and our our ordinance does allow for the development of single family homes on existing plate lots that don't have a existing
conservation restriction as long as it's less than a quarter acre and um they're developing in accordance with that. So, I take no exception to it. I think it might be prudent though that um on the stream side of this property, they put
in some kind of an easement uh restriction so that way we're not running issues with future owners going and clearing trees and, you know, doing things on the property that's going to get them in trouble. Um is that something the applicant would be amendable to, John? So, a conservation
easement of sorts to alert people that the trees are in an environmentally sensitive area and they can't be removed. You know, with it, you could do certain things. Certain things you can't >> Yeah. like maintenance if a dead tree is falling down or something like that >> at your limits of disturbance just so that way no one's coming in there and
like trying to get a permit to put in a shed or like build a pool or something like that >> in that area. Correct. You're saying on the stream side, which is the west side. >> Correct. >> So, I would suggest we just follow the wetlands buffer line and create that easement area. on that west side.
>> I think that's that's acceptable. Um, you got to get free old soils as a condition approval because you're over 5,000 square feet, right? We have that. >> Just if I may, as far as a pool or a shed in the other areas, that would be okay, right? >> Well, and I would just say you got a flood hazard area permit for a single
family home. So, you know, >> provided we get other >> Charlie's right. We got a permit that our rear limit of clearance with our permit is this line. >> Correct. So, if you want to go put in a pool or you want to go to put in all different amenities at some point in the future, the applicant and a future owner
just needs to be aware that those are potentially regulated activities if they're within 150 ft. >> Agreed 100%. >> All right. Um, there's no water and sewer. You said you you've got the septic already approved by board of health. >> Septic is approved by the board of health. >> Yes. So, the approval was for five
bedrooms, but I only count three bedrooms in the in the dwelling. >> Right. So, there is a bonus room above the garage for future development. And like I said, we originally had a bigger house that was set farther west or farther east on this property, which was a five- bedroomedroom house. In the
permitting process with the D, we went to a smaller house, moved it towards the west, and that's where we'd already got our septic approval for five bedrooms, but the house is now a four-bedroom house. >> Okay. But if you had if there was any intent to convert any of those to bedrooms, you still have two garage parking spaces and then at at least one
or two parking spaces in the driveway. Correct. >> That's correct. >> So you need three for RSIs. So you're compliant with that. >> We talked about pipes. We talked about paving the Colts Neck Road. We talked about timber guide on the other side of the stream crossing. We talked about making it 20 foot wide for the road. Um
any emergency generators or anything like that proposed? >> There's none at this time now. Okay. Other than the AC condensers which are the back of the house, >> two upstairs, one downstairs is three. >> So the sib >> it's a four bedroomedroom house when you
count the bonus room above the garage. >> And I just want to point out on the plans it says unfinished storage. Uh you know that that's a great type of room to have over your garage for a workshop. The kids play up there. Not a bedroom, but it's just like another den. It's not smart to limit yourself.
>> Yeah, that's what I mean. We don't >> I'm just saying four bedrooms. >> Four bedrooms. Okay. >> If you say three bedrooms and nothing above the garage, then let me be very clear. The minute he goes to put someone above the garage, he's going to be flagged. >> Right. >> So, I don't see a lot of push back. So,
if I were you, four bedrooms. >> I agree with Miss Beam. She makes so much sense. >> Yeah, she does. >> How often do you say that? >> More than YOU THINK. SO, >> there's a first for everything. >> And Mr. Chair, what I would just say is if if the board is inclined to rule
favorably on this that um we make a recommendation to the governing body that they um pass an ordinance about no parking on Bird Street because it's only 20 foot wide. So, we don't want, you know, vehicles parking and then a fire truck and, you know, emergency vehicle can't get through there. So, uh passing
an ordinance that's restricts no parking on Birch Street and then they have the ability to enforce it and put up signage if if they want to. >> Absolutely. >> The other thing, Mr. chair that I think that we should request from the applicant is that a stipulation on the record that the garage is not going to
be converted into living space. >> The lower for we'll stipulate. >> Yes. So, I think that's important to get on the record as well. >> Okay. Charlie. >> Yep. >> Um what about other sections of the uh international fire code for fire fire truck access? Dead end issues. Uh
turning radius issues. >> He said they're going to use the driveway as a turnaround. Yeah. So I mean on a culdesac, you know, servicing subdivision with multiple single family homes, RSIS does require a culde-sac. I
mean, if the strict wording on RSIS probably tells you you need it for any type of residential development. I just with what's currently proposed, I don't know that one, they would be able to get a permit from D to put in a 40 foot uh radius culde-sac there. Um, and it would
be significant impervious coverage and it would make it a major development from a stormwater perspective. So, it would it would be it would be a significant hardship for one single property owner to to do that. Now, if this was we had 30 more homes on the end of this,
you know, that we knew were all developable, we would be having a different discussion about the road needing to be only 20 foot wide and then, you know, maybe they need storm water, maybe they need to start looking at basins and things like that. Um, I think the condition that uh the driveway
has to be available for fire departments to make the turnaround. I think the condition that mail and garbage has to be on Colts neck road so those vehicles aren't coming in there every day of the, you know, of the week I think is important. We have approved um we have
approved similar type instances where it's the last lot on the end of a of a of an existing improved rightaway and not made it the burden for them to put in a culde-sac. >> Having said that, it's within the board's purview if you want to require something of that. It it's, you know,
it's certainly something that you guys can require as >> the driveway for the house, the proposed house is 25 ft. Correct. >> Right. You're talking about the property line of the garage. >> Yeah. It's storing 25 ft. >> Yes. Is >> if you have four cars on that, which is
possible, >> I mean, it's not going to be able to be used as a turnaround. >> I mean, respectfully, requiring a single family home on an unimproved street to improve the street and put a culde-sac for one house
when you and I both know that firetruck is not getting anywhere near that house. I think it's unreasonable. Well, it needs No, it's not unreasonable because it needs to get near that firehouse because it's 240 ft from Colt's neck. I understand supposed to walk. >> No, but what I'm saying is is that
there's a stipulation been made that the driveway is available for a turnover, >> but the driveway would I mean, you can vote however you want to vote, but I don't think a single family home warrants the financial. Do you want like
to do this? First of all, they're never going to get a permit from the D. So, do you want them to go to the D and then have the D say no and then you're going to be okay with it because the D is going to say no. N for one house. It's regulated. That line that's on that map
right there, that line that has the wiggle lines, that's the limit of disturbance period. End of discussion. Anything beyond there, they're going to say no. So, there's going to be no culde-sac available to them. Even if they apply for it, the D will say no.
>> And and if I >> Mr. Jackson, did you hear from the fire bureau? Did you did or Mr. Civ, did you speak to the fire bureau? >> I did speak to the fire bureau. I spoke to Mr. Prock now. Um I have an email from Mr. Prock now. He was okay with the layout we had um with the stipulation
that we just make it 20 foot wide as opposed to the 18 foot wide. >> Okay. And he he was he knows it's a roadway and not a driveway, correct? >> That is my understanding. Yes. >> Okay. will make sure he knows it's a roadway and as long as it's compliant with the fire department, I I agree with
Mr. Burrell to a point, but it's unreasonable for them to do a copac and plus it's going to be a lot of impervious, >> you know, roadway and we're going to be knocking trees down >> and there is precedent to what they're talking about. So, this is while I, you know, I agree with you.
>> There will be signage for no parking. Yeah, that's definitely going to be >> We can't make this applicant do it because they don't own the rightway, but we can as a board recommend that the governing body >> Okay, we're going to do that. >> Yep. >> So, they had to turn around. They would
just say get these cars out of the way so they can turn the truck around, I assume. Right. I know what Mr. Buro was saying, and I agree. If the driveway is full, they would just have to ask you to move the cars so you can turn around. fire. There's police
and flags and they come back up. So, chances are too, they're going to use a water truck to go up that driveway anyway to put the fire out because I don't know where the lo the closest fire the closest uh fire hydrant is. So, you're going to have to bring a water truck in there anyway to do the fire. So, that's the other issue.
>> I don't want to speak for Chief Rockn, but I did talk to him today. Uh he originally he was fine with 18 foot when he thought this was a driveway. He didn't realize that this was a rightaway. and that's why we're saying it needs to be 20 foot wide. Uh he did bring up the concern about a turnaround uh because RSIS does require it. It's
just I've and prior to him too, Chief Lewis, I've you know, so what Jen was saying is um they'll require it when they can get it in an advisory capacity, but you know, I've had properties on Route 9 with a you know, contractor storage yard
where we wanted a turnaround. And he basically was like, if there's a fire, we're never driving a fire truck onto this site. You know what I mean? We're getting it as close as possible, but like we're not going to drive. You know, I remember my predecessor, Jack Malon, telling me that Southern Fire Company
just bought a new firetruck in like the 90s and like I think on their third call, they drove too close to a building and it and it basically torched the brand new $300,000 firet truck. So, um while it is a concern, I I think that there's restrictions that we can ask of
the governing body and also of this applicant that could help ameliorate those concerns. um if this was an activity that is happening on an everyday basis, you know, maybe we need a more realistic turnaround, but if a fire happens, hopefully one never happens, um it's going to create so much
of a disturbance that there's going to be police out there stopping traffic on Coldneck Road for a firetruck to be able to get out of there. You know what I mean? So, um I think it would be for this particular application in this location. I think it would be a particular hardship to require to put in
an 80ft diameter culde-sac, which there isn't even the right of way right now to be able to put in an 80 foot wide culde-sac. They'd have to give it to us, but I don't even know that they can get permits to do that from D because of the regulated foot hazard area here. I would
say if if Chief Pcknow totally understands the situation and you spoke to him and he's okay with what has been said here. Um I guess that would be fine. Um signage I think would
have to be a must if we're not having markings or turnarounds or >> body. But we're going to recommend that. >> I mean that's quite a distance from Colt's neck. I'm a retired firefighter. I'm taking my five I'm taking my fire truck down that road. I'm not doing that walk. >> I know. I know. I know. But I don't think you're you're not pulling into the
driveway for the home. You know what I mean? I think you're getting within 100 150 ft as close as close as you can with getting with within reason. There was a reason that the prior fire official always required 360°ree circulation around every building because it's required for certain
commercial site plans. But they started getting away with that a little bit in some sense because of people getting too close to the building and torching brand new brand new fire trucks. So, um I think there's a balance that can be struck here within the limitations of what both D is going to impose and what
would be a financial hardship for this applicant >> because the other properties there's what three or four other lots >> that are de developable developable >> to the south >> county though. >> Yeah. So, so there's
two properties, sorry, one, two, three, four properties immediately to the south of this. The one closest to Colts Road is basically going to be undevelopable because it likely has exactly the same wetlands and buffers that this subject property has. Then there's two
properties that would probably have to be consolidated to be a buildable lot, I would think, to build a home on it. And then there's another property behind that. But looking at the geo web mapping, there's a reason why they're stopping with the development where they are now is because a lot of that
property is wet lands and has wetlands buffers. And there's a reason that all those properties were sold to the county because the development potential of those is like basically non-existent. >> So it's not like this is when we got like 40 lots on a paper street down in
uh like Berkeley Township, you know what I mean? Or something like that. Um the likelihood that anything east of this is getting developed I would say is like close to close to zero if not >> Yeah. No, I just was asking because you know will it at some point down the road become this little community but it
seems like that wouldn't be the case. >> No. And I and I think that's an acknowledgement probably from the governing body in 2017. There used like I said right behind this property there was a 50-ft rightway that ran there's four or five more paper streets to the south of this and it ran the length of
all those. the town vacated that because everything to the east of that is basically owned by the county for conservation purposes. So the the likelihood that anything is going to get built is like I said non-existent. Like this doesn't even show the vacation. If
you go look at the the tax map here, there's a like a 50ft rightway that runs north south John to the right. >> Yeah. That all that runs that doesn't exist anymore. That's been vacated by the township. So, it's not like someone could then
come and run road down to the south and tie in all these street ends. That no longer exists. >> So, Charlie, just to be clear, so is is this where the roadway, not the driveway, the roadway is going to be. >> Correct.
>> And then the front of the house is here because we're looking at this upside down now, right? >> No, it's it's the right orientation. Right. >> Yeah. So, okay. where their where the woods line is right now on the right hand side. They're going into that on the order of like 15 feet plus or minus.
I can scale it on the plants for you. Maybe it's a little bit more than that. I might be understating it. >> Yeah, it's at an angle. So, at its largest, it's about 40 ft and then it goes down to about 10 ft.
>> Yeah. So, and and as Mr. did represent and there was there has been a prior application on this property going back six or seven years ago that never moved forward because we brought up all these concerns with the flood hazard in the wetlands and uh in those instances too
they were trying to build a bigger home further back you know um so what you're showing is scale back from what others and even this applicant had originally was trying to do on the property >> you said the garbage pickup is we're requesting the garbage pickup to be done
on Colts neck road. >> And the mailbox as well. >> That brings out a whole new thing about bringing out the garbage 240 ft. >> Nice exercise. >> No, I understand that. >> Yeah. >> Whose property does the trash in the mail go?
>> Yeah. >> Go on the township right away. We own 50 foot wide on Cold Snack Road. So, you know, the existing roads maybe 26 feet wide. So we have we own you know the the front you know >> there's plenty of room >> five to 10 feet on both sides of the road is is ours. So they might think
that they own it but >> it's >> so the only thing I would piggyback on all of that because I don't I agree with everything is I would recommend and Charlie did too is installing a street sign so that for EMS and the other purposes they know where Burk Street is.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's a definite. >> Is that something we have to impose or the town will that's in their court? I >> think that's in the governing bodies. Okay. >> Yes. >> We'll re Yeah. Okay. Anything more?
>> No, I think that covers it. >> Yeah, I think any more questions from the board. >> I just have one question. >> Um I don't know if Jennifer if you want to answer this. on the well and septic. It's a standard 100 or 110 feet apart.
>> 100 feet. Now, when they get the that approval from the county, do we have to worry about that or that's already included? >> It's not in our jurisdiction. That's the countyy's jurisdiction. >> Wait, what? >> That's the county's jurisdiction. >> I mean, but we don't have to check that 100. >> That's on them
>> in there for us. So, we don't have to address that. >> That's their They would not get their septic approval if they did not comply with that. That's on the county. They'll check it. >> Something I would check on in the past, but if they're going to do it and I always have it done, then I have to look at it. >> Correct.
>> Yeah. And I would just um to give the board reference. >> He was pretty thorough. >> Their septic system is over 100 ft from their westerly property line. So, um there shouldn't be anything to the south, there shouldn't be anything to
the east. the house to the north or the property to the north. They're all the way tucked into the northeast corner of that property. Um I you know they're going to review it, but I would if anything they're checking to make sure that it's compliant with setback from the home and things like that and the
drywalls that they put in, but uh I don't foresee any issues with that. >> No, I didn't see one, but that's because if it's standard that they're going to routinely check it, then we don't have to address it, >> right? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Okay. Just one quick question, Mr. Sean.
Are they running electric via utility pole or underground from Colts neck road? >> So, we're proposing to go underground from Colts neck road. >> Okay. So, there won't be no poles that have to be placed along Birch Road >> as of right now. Yes. Depending on what the utility company has to say, but that is our game plan. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> There's nothing further from anybody. >> I guess >> I have our architect here. If there's any questions, um I don't know. I mean, that's self-explanatory from the illustrations. We've covered everything with the bedrooms and such. >> Okay. >> Parking. >> We may not have questions, but at least get his credentials on the record. So,
>> call us. >> Um, you've been sworn right there. >> Uh, you're a licensed professional architect. >> I am a licensed professional architect. >> And, uh, you've testified in front of boards. Have been qualified as an expert architect. >> I have. >> That's satisfactory, Mr. Chairman? >> Yes, it is. Thank you.
>> Okay. I think Mr. Kliff was, you know, went through all the issues with the fire, with the uh septic, with the uh uh D, etc. So, I I think we've covered everything. Um and we would submit based on the record that we've created
unless there's any particular questions about any specific items. >> Okay. What uh there was there was no basement. >> Basement >> on a slab. >> No, there is a basement. >> Oh, there's a basement. >> Yes. So, it will be full and finished maybe or >> I'll defer to the architect. I don't know if it's finished or
>> I mean it's shown as unfinished now. I mean, there's there's no plans currently to finish it, but the space is there. >> So, we'll so we'll make >> no bedrooms in the basement would be a request of the board as a condition of approval. >> Stipulate to that. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> And um I would just last thing I would note is this is for a single family residential home, right? There's no commercial activity. Um I speaking with the township engineer, I think Mr. Zukus might own a a plumbing business in town.
So I just want to put that on the record that this is a single family home that's not approved for any commercial uses or activities. Just so it's clear, >> including the storage of commercial vehicles. >> Okay. >> Mr. Sukus has shaken his head. Yes. >> Yes. >> Jennifer, anything else for the Okay.
>> Are there any other I'm sorry. >> Okay. Now board members questions. >> Yeah. Was there any other um proposed buildings for storage uh storage buildings or anything like that? >> There's nothing else proposed at this proposed.
>> Okay. If there's no further questions. Okay. We're good with your witness. >> So I guess at this time we'll probably go to public unless there's any other questions or comments. Okay. Okay. At this time, I'd like uh motion chair to go to public.
>> Mr. Hughes with the motion, second by Mr. Arasco. >> All in favor? Yes. >> Okay. Lisa statement. >> The chairman has opened the hearing up for members of the public to ask questions or comment on this application. If you would like to speak, please come up to the podium and you will need to provide your name and
address. You will be sworn in. Good. We're doing good. How are you doing? >> All right. My name is Aaron Shiavo, 361 Colts Neck Road. >> Okay. You'll need to be sworn in. >> Do you swear or affirm the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> State your name and spell your last.
>> Erin Shiavo. Uh, S H I A V O. Um, I just have a couple of questions. Hopefully, I'm sure they could be answered quickly. Um, where can I see the copy of the D approvals >> or where can I obtain a copy?
>> They're on file with the county clerk's office, the DP, and then we have copies of them. >> Okay. Is there like a specific file number that I have to reference or that's the one in the letter? >> Well, Rob be submitted to the town. >> What's that? >> You're going to submit them to the >> Sure. Submit to the board. Sure. Okay. And I can get the file number
>> be available once they submit them at the planning board office. >> Okay. I I only ask these questions because I I live in the house that you referenced north of the property. Okay. Um and I recently when we built our house had to jump through an exorbitant amount of hoops to get everything done.
Um now the the the run that's in the front there, the mink run, um according to my notes, that is a sorry, forgive me. I'm I'm kind of a novice when it comes to this stuff. Is a trout maintenance category one. Is that accurate?
>> I don't know that to be specific. I don't know. >> Okay. Because when we did >> you know that it's a category one stream, correct? >> It is a category one stream. Yes. >> Okay. Um because that was when we our house is actually built as far back as it is because we were forced by both the
D and the township to delineate a very significant buffer there. Um, and from my notes that that trout maintenance category has a 300 foot special protection. >> That's the 300 foot buffer. Correct. >> Okay. Would you be building within that 300 foot buffer? >> Yes, we are. >> Okay.
>> That's that D permit that we got, that GP6 that I referenced that allows us to do that. >> Okay. Um, and when was that obtained? >> It was obtained on October 28th, 2024, expiring October 27th, 2029.
Um, and as far as the I guess it's not a driveway, it's going to be a road. Thank you. Um, what kind of other improvements? Because when we had to cut our driveway, they made us put Allen block with the with the barriers on either side with two
giant culver pipes running underneath. And when it rains, that area does flood quite a bit. And it does flow through the there's like a retention pond there that it flows through a set of channels and then goes on its way. Um, it was deemed at the time that that was I guess the beginning of Mink Run and that's
where the trout I I don't know if it's a breeding area, but that's where they begin and then go on down the way. And that was I guess a very very very big issue when we were building. That's why we had to build so far back because there's wetlands in the front and then there's wetlands in the back and there
was like this little more or less strip that was buildable. So, I had always just assumed and you know through our engineer and through a number of other things that that was more or less an unbuildable lot and I know you referenced the several of the other lots
in the back with the paper roads. Um, >> so I'm just going to jump in. >> Sure, absolutely. >> So, they've received their D permits which has identified a buildable area on this property for a single family home. This board has zero jurisdiction to
override anything the D has given them. Okay? >> So the D, you know, they have gotten their permits in advance of coming here. That's not the norm. Normally the permits are a condition of any kind of action from this board, but they've gone beforehand to demonstrate that they can
build there. So there's nothing that this board can do to override what the state has enabled them to do. I >> I wouldn't ask them to. >> That's fine. But I'm just saying so John all those permits need to be submitted to the board available to the public
>> and what I will say is once the D has issued those permits they are allowed to do this. >> Okay I'm not questioning >> just to add clarity. So the applicant has provided the permit and the stamp plans and there's a I think we issued a first completeness review letter and
then we issued a second one. the applicant resubmitted their plans because we questioned the footprint of the building and the limit of disturbance uh uh whether or not that matched the approved plan. So they did provide the approved plans and then they revised their plan to the board to make
sure that it matched with what was approved with D. So >> so we've we have provided the I have them here. I could email them right now but >> yeah I know that I have them from Mr. Civ. I would just make sure that you submit them in duplicate. Correct. Not a problem. We can do that. >> Okay. So you're saying that the that
that the 300 foot buffer that was described this is much more of a D issue than a township. >> It's 100% a D. >> Okay. >> Thank you for the information. Um is now there's something called the repairarian zone which I assume is also another D issue.
>> Okay. Again, again, forgive me for my ignorance and >> and then I'll just note that we do have our own repairarian zone uh requirements in How Township, but we do have exceptions for existing platted lots as long as the the development is less than a quarter acre of new impervious and
disturbance and it's for a single family home. So, if someone wanted to go put a commercial use or something like this, that exception would not apply to them. This is specific to a single family home. >> Okay, I think that's all I have at least for the time being. Thank you guys very much. Yeah. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Anybody else from >> public? JJ law firm. >> Call me. >> Seeing none, do I have a motion to close? >> I'll make a motion to close. >> Mr. Caner, Mr. Caner, Wisconsin with the second. All in favor?
>> Yes. >> I uh >> yes, >> Jen. >> Um as far as um obviously there's not going to be sidewalks, but is there a sidewalk fund that they Not for a single family home. They're exempt from our sidewalk.
>> Okay. >> Thank you very much. Thank you, >> Charlie. The uh the resident did bring up something. All the drainage from this road street. That's all good as far as any issues with runoff to his property.
>> Yeah. So, so um this property subject propert came up. He's on the high side of the stream. So, he's the northeasterly of this. Um, there are two RCP Culver pipes that go under what's now going to be a road. I went out there this morning and took a look at them. They're in uh relatively good condition.
We I talked with Mr. Civ. There is some notes that need to be added on the plan just checking um like the joints when they're actually constructing the road just to make sure that nothing gets damaged. Um but they did get a flood hazard permit for D. So um the activity that they're doing the disturbance is within what's allowed. They are putting
in drywall size for the water quality uh storm for the um for the home itself. So it's not like they're not doing any stormware management at all with this application. >> That's all I have. Anybody else professionals? Anything else? Okay, Mr.
Jackson, you want to sum up? >> Thank you. Um I'm always amazed at the thoroughess um that these applications get looked at. Like Mr. Kumliff was out there today looking at the uh pipes under the driveway to see if they were sufficient and and our product is a consequence of that kind of scrutiny. Um
when we think of the picture of that little lane going up, I I respectfully submit this is going to be a beautiful house. It's going to look like it's on a a country lane and um there's there's a place for that and it's going to maintain that character of that area and um you know I know there's discussion
about the fire trucks and I think as Mr. come pointed out when the fire trucks come, there's people with the lights and there's police there. They'll they'll they'll manage it in that very unusual circumstance uh that there might be a fire. My client wants to build a beautiful house. We have all of the
environmental permits. I hope the board shares our vision that this is going to be a nice addition and an appropriate place for this house. Nice little piece of heaven there. Thank you very much. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Jackson. Okay. If there's nothing else at this time, do I have a uh motion from the
board on this application? >> Yeah, Mr. Chair, given all the uh all the facts that were put in front of us today and the thoroughess of of our professionals and of the applicants professionals, I would just like to make a motion to approve this application.
>> Mr. Hughes with the motion. Do I have a second? I'll second that. >> Mr. Caner with the second. Do we have a roll call? >> Mr. Barillo. >> Yes. >> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Hughes? >> Yes.
>> Mr. O'Donnell? >> Yes. >> Mr. Rosco? >> Yes. >> Mr. Ryan? >> Yes. >> Chairman Merren? >> Yes. >> Motion carries. Application is approved. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Good luck. >> Good luck. I hope he's a trout fisherman
that big. They just came out of the eggs. >> Okay. Is there any further business of the board before we um go to a little training session from our attorney? >> Well, maybe a break for five minutes. >> I think that would be a great idea.
>> We're We're going to take a break. So >> okay, we'll recess for five minutes. So the the uh I I put this together and I could email it to you guys, but uh so we are under the framework of the local
government ethics law and as a uh as an appointed official you are a uh a local government officer and you're bound by the this law and uh basically the the state of New Jersey through the local
finance board, Department of Community Affairs, local finance board has jurisdiction over all local government officers. So if there was ever an ethics complaint filed, god forbid, against any of us, then that would go to the state
of New Jersey. I mean, towns can have their own ethics boards, but I don't I was looking through the code and how and I don't see that that the governing body created one. So, yeah. So, we're we're subject to the state's uh oversight in
that regard. And really, you know, the idea here is is that the applicants and their the and and objectors and then residents have faith that, you know, you all are making decisions, you know, based on the merits and are not have any
personal bias or reason not to make that decision. And that's that's the impetus behind the law. And as noted actually if you look at the local the definition of a local government officer it includes
uh people who approve development applications or grow or grant zoning variances. So that's this board. So you're clearly that and every year because everyone's been on you file with the uh you get from the clerk a uh
financial disclosure form. It's actually due pretty soon I think. >> Yeah. >> Right. Hey, can you just put this on the next page? >> So, the the form requires
uh Okay, it looks a little different than Okay, the form uh requires that you list each source of income exceeding $2,000. If you get fees or honorariums exceeding $250,
sources of gifts, reimbursement, prepaid expenses exceeding $400 from any single person or source, the name and address of all business organizations in which you're a member or your immediate family is. So, if you
own a business or your family does, you disclose that. And the property, if you own property, and you know where that is. um you don't disclose, you know, how much you get from any of these individual sources. It's not that
intrusive, but you but if you meet any of those thresholds, you're supposed to disclose that. And these are and then it gets filed with the state. I believe they're on file with the township clerk as well. And these are public that financial disclosure is a public
document. So you can anyone can submit an Oprah request and say hey I want to see your uh I want to see you know this board member's financial disclosure. I don't know if that's happened here but anyway the yeah so that is a public
record. So that's the framework. And then within the local government ethics law, there's definitions of uh what a conflict is. And uh and really the the law is really
concerned with two things. An actual conflict or a perceived conflict um or they call an appearance of a conflict. Um so the statute provides that uh if
uh you as a board member or a member of your immediate family which would be a spouse or a child um have an interest in a business or engage in a business which is in substantial conflict with your duty as a board member that would be a
conflict. So if obviously if you had an application or you had what a business you own had an application before the board, you could not participate in that. You'd have to recuse yourself. Um you're not supposed to as a local
government officer use your official position to secure unwarranted privileges. I'm sure that doesn't really come up too much as a board member, but uh you know there the idea is is you'll be like uh well you know you go to the
you go to town hall and say can you know wink wink please ignore some violation because I'm you know I'm a board member right that would be unwarranted privilege for like your uh your yourself acting as a board member um
so you can't act is a board member where you or your immediate family or a business organization of your immediate family has an interest direct or indirect that might reasonably be expected to impair your objectivity.
So if you have a this is sort of what I call the catchall provision. So like a lot of board members or council members where I'm the municipal attorney will ask you know do I have a conflict and it doesn't involve like your immediate
family. It doesn't involve a business but some but you know you you might know an applicant or you might be friend like very friendly with an applicant and that really so that you're not technically obligated to recuse yourself in that
circumstance. But if somebody if you vote and then somebody challenges it and you say, "Hey, you know, he was actually he or she was actually a very close friend of that applicant that might reasonably expected to impair your
objectivity. It could be a conflict. So, you know, my general advice is, and the good news is is as the lawyer, you can only hear the advice. You're not bound by it." because I've had instances where governing body members, not here in Howell because I don't act as the
municipal attorney where I suggested at least privately to that board member that you know you may want to stay out of this one. I think it's a close call and you'll be you're going to get some scrutiny and then the board member chose not to. So that was but that's
ultimately that kind of decision is your decision. Even if I actually I think I said it in public and the board member said, "Nope, I don't think it's a conflict and this is why." I'm like, "It's your decision." So, if somebody sued challenging whatever that governing body action was at the time, they could
have sued saying that member should not have participated, voted, acted in conflict, and could have voided the, you know, ended up voiding whatever that municipal action was. Which is why I always say if it's a close call or you feel like you know
even if you feel you can be objective but you're afraid you're concerned that there's a perception that you would not be you know that would be a circumstance where you would want to uh you know consider recusing yourself. A, you're protecting your fellow board members and
b the the action whatever the board may take because if you know you want to obviously try to avoid a a you know a legal challenge based on a vote you took you know because the municipality would will expend you know
time and money defending that decision and then sure nobody would be h you wouldn't you wouldn't feel good about that decision then >> I could see why you call it the catchall It's a fine line, right? You know, we've all lived in town. We all have lived here for a while. We know a lot of
people. Some people we just say hello and goodbye to. Other people we go out to dinner with on a regular basis. So, >> there's that fine line of when you say how well do you know that person? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No. And and I mean from my own view is you know you really need a close
personal relationship to trigger the to trigger the conflict. You know even if you socialize with people in a large a group you know like if you're not you know that personally close you could still be objective. So it really comes
down to how you feel you know in your heart and that kind of thing. If I if you think it's a close call, I would always on the side of recusal. >> Yeah. It just, you know, it's it's much easier to just do that. I mean, you definitely don't
want that aura, risk, whatever of, you know, having it look like you're, you know, even if you're not that close with them, you just don't want it. Like, you're just better safe than sorry. That's why like I struggle with, you know, when like when you're council or
hire, you know, it's like, okay, there's certain things you should just not be doing while you're in that role. Like to me, that's a massive conflict of interest because it looks bad if you own a business and you're now like it's just a lot of it's just a it gets muddy.
>> Yeah, it does. And look, you don't nobody wants a that kind of scrutiny, you know, if you're the subject of a court action or negative press. Not that there's much local press these days, but there is, you know, here in Facebook, well, there is there's social media, and
one doesn't want to be spread across social media for that. Uh, that's true. That's worse than the local press, actually. >> Yep. >> So, um, so there's that. And then uh you know if you're in your position you shouldn't be se you shouldn't be
soliciting gifts loans uh or promises of future uh employment based on the fact you're a board member. Again that's an unusual circumstance for a board member. I would think I think that applies more towards governing body
members but that is a rule. Um, and you're not supposed to use information you gain in reviewing an application that's not yet public, uh, you know, for your own financial gain. Oh, so and so's, well, once somebody
files an application, it's public. So then, but if it's if it's before an application, let's say hypothetically for a use variance is granted and you're going to say like, "Oh, I'm going to buy the property that's going to benefit if that use variance is granted." That
would be a, you know, you would have, you know, an advant a personal advantage in that circumstance. >> Inside >> it is. Again, you want >> I'm like the ethics police here, but it's kind of funny. It's not funny. But no, you clearly obviously want to avoid
that again because again if if you get a financial benefit and then whether it's social media, whether it's litigation, you know, that's clear and at the end of the day, you want to protect the board and the township given the, you know, position of trust you've been placed in
as a board member. Um, uh, okay. So the next one is is I'm up to H right here. No local. So you you um or uh or an employee or or or if you own
a business which you have an interest in um should appear before uh the local before how in connection with uh any matter that's pending before well actually it would be this board. So
again, if it was this board, it would be clearly you're out. You know, you couldn't participate. Um, so those are so those are the I would think the highlights of that and then of sort of the what the basic rules are. John, if you could scroll down
to find a conflict. So, and I've had this in a number of litigations, one within the last year. forget not for Howell but so it as I was saying it you don't what I highlighted was there to find a conflict there only
needs to be an appearance of impropriety an actual conflict is not required so that's case law so that's some of the cases that I cited down there and actually one of them skull versus local finance
board I was actually the attorney for a governing body member of that town who was the subject of that decision by chance. Totally by chance. But in any event, so the um yeah, so again getting to the question, even if it's not an
actual conflict, if it's a perception where you think that there's a an appearance of an that you're not doing the right thing, the if and you vote on a matter, the the matter, you know, it could be found your vote could be found
to be in conflict. So that there's definitions of what a d of these various items. And so as you see if there's a direct pecuniary interest that's where you voting on your own property where you're affording
yourself financial gain. Again if that was the case at least before the zoning board you clearly wouldn't participate so that wouldn't be an issue. um an indirect pecuniionary interest where you vote on a matter that financially
benefits one closely tied to you such as an employer or family member. I think it would come up more in the context of employment. But I know even if there's even in the context of you know if if you think I a couple board members have
come up to me about oh I used to work you know at a place and then this was you know I'm not there but you know in question whether you should participate but so again if it would if it would benefit a current employer you should
definitely recuse yourself um a direct personal interest when you vote on a matter that benefits a relative or close friend in a non-financial way. Again, I think as in the case here, as a board member, your votes would only
impact uh applicants or friends of applicants in a um you know, in a financial way because the benefit of getting an approval is obviously of financial benefit to
uh you know, could be of financial benefit to you. And then uh so again all these situations what the case law is like all the the appellet and supreme court cases on this all say
it's very fact sensitive. So like as John was pointing out and you know there's a uh there there's some easy bright line rules but a lot of this is gray. So if it's not you know, for you
family member, your employer, but a friend, but how close of a friend? Uh, you know, do you uh participate or not? If if what if you did, the court matter would be reviewed like the facts would
be explored in a lot of uh with a lot of specificity. Um, so but there's a lot of lofty goals in all these cases as you see because they talk about officials must be free of
even a potential for entangling interest that will erode public trust in governmental actions. So that's why even if if you think it's a close call, you should probably you know recuse because even though you know you in your heart
you could be objective if somebody out there or somebody who's unhappy with decision wants to challenge it and say you know I know you've had we've had some controversial applications before the board um over the years and you know with a lot of
objectors and you know people are unh residents who were opposed to it, you know, and if somebody wants to not have the development, but the board ends up approving it and you participate and then, you know, it's discovered of some
in quote entanglement, you know, that would be a basis to try to set aside the decision. Um, so under the state law, the uh the local government ethics law, if you're if
there was an ethics complaint filed against you, um, the it's really not much of a financial risk. I mean, it's more of a, you know, scarlet art or embarrassment if you were found to be in
conflict. But you could be fine between 100 $500. Um, and the governing body uh could, you know, if could rem remove or otherwise
discipline you if you were found in conflict. So that's what the the law provides. And then I just set out some sort of what the bright line rules are. So if you're recuse if you're recusing
yourself, you should step down well and leave the room. So this way, so I'll give an example. Years ago, as the municipal attorney, I had a I had a uh council president who
said, "I have a conflict." Because he was friends with whoever was coming before the council. And I said, "Well, how friendly?" Well, I'm not that friendly, but I know what it was this whole thing. And then he ended up saying, well, I'm just going to recuse myself because I don't feel
comfortable. I said, okay, it's up to you. And he did, except he sat up on the deis and then while the discussion was going on and then there was a legal challenge, even though I told him he should step down, he didn't want to. So there was a
legal challenge to the decision of the governing body based on the fact he didn't participate but he sat up on the deis and the judge in Mammoth County at the time again this goes back 15 years ago uh set aside the decision saying it
was like it was an appearance of he was >> you know like uh >> like influencing >> yeah influencing the other board members again even though factually it wasn't true but it was their perception because he was the council president. And uh so if you're going to step down, you really
need to, you know, step down. >> That's a very good point. people and another thing for I think everybody said it's better to be sure just check with him because I had a couple times in
my 10 years where I lose the chairman >> I had to recuse myself and guy very >> could have been worse for him. >> Right. Exactly. >> Right. Because the applicant will end up if it's challenged will spend more money
if on in a court action than they would before. Y >> I mean it was >> Yeah. No. Um if uh so there are times like hypothetically if you had this actually happened again it was a governing body
it wasn't a zoning board where it invol when the councils used to review this if there was a like the school budgets there were times when they used to do that if there was a I forget the circumstance how it comes up but if
there was but they would where they had to like decide if they were going to cut the budget or not, the school budget. And I don't I can't remember the law that allowed them to do that. But in any event, they had like four members of the board who either were employed by the
school board or family members were. And so they didn't have a quorum to be able to consider the issue. So that's what the that's what the rule of necessity is, which is noted there. So that if there's enough members who are recused
such that you don't have a quorum or in the case of this kind a zoning board where you don't have a um you know enough votes for a use variance um the rule of necessity at least in the land use realm says we could we'd have
to know in advance but a pl you could go to the planning board or the planning board could go come to this board to hear a particular case a member can >> just out of cur Curiosity, Andy, if it's a governing and not related to us, but if it's the council, who would they go to?
>> Well, no. In the council case, the rule of necessity is that they're allowed to participate. Okay? >> Because that's because they otherwise they wouldn't be able to perform their statutory function of reviewing whatever they were. Right. So, that that's what would happen in that.
>> I was just curious who they'd rep zoning. That's kind of interchangeable. Yeah. >> Yeah. Nope. And then uh again as you so you can vote on a matter where you have a conflict um again where you have either direct
indirect personal financial interests there and so you should recuse yourself and then in uh oh well the other thing is and there's a typo here but and I could email this around if if you live within and we had this I think
Rich with um if a board member lives within 200 fee of the property it issued >> bill. Yeah. Right. That was only within the last two years. You should uh recuse yourself as well. So if you get one of those 200 foot notices, >> it's a problem for you.
>> Now, a question on that. If you're noticed and then you want to be a public person, can you then stay in the room and >> Yes. Okay. >> Yeah. >> I've had board members and council members do that. You don't lose your rights as a citizen, right? So if you
either for or against an application, I mean you'd have to get up and say, "Hey, I'm here as a resident, not a board member. I live within 200 feet. This is why this is my view." Yeah. >> Okay. Cool. >> Yeah. >> And that
become influenc >> It could. I know. It's a it's a tough issue, Nick, honestly, because I I was uh you know, I haven't researched that point, but I I haven't had that come up. But I will say I just don't think like
you lose your right. I think ultimately you're a pro, you know, whether you're a property owner, citizen, resident of the town, I don't think you'll lose all your rights because you happen to be sitting up here. If that application could impact you, but I I'm going to double check. I'm if I'm if I'm a lawyer
sitting over there, I jump over that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, I would say to you, you know what, you're probably better off keeping quiet just so you don't taint the application. But, uh, I'm going to double check that point because I'm I'm I'm winging I I'm
not entirely certain of that. But I I've I've seen where elected officials have gotten up as residents. >> I've actually read stuff to that to that. >> But I get what Nick's saying, too. That's true. I guess you have to You would have to direct the board to say when Nick Barillo comes up here, take
the facts and the facts only. And you know, >> have to be it's got to be like the air quote gentleman's agreement that we're all going to act the way we should act. >> Yeah. >> Gentle person. >> So I would say, >> oh, I'm so offended.
>> That's it. Well, luckily we have our alternates, so there's always But anyway, um, so yeah. So I mean that's there's I mean I could I I I I didn't want to bore you with like a lot of case law. >> No, this is
>> but there's, you know, again, there's a lot of nuance, honestly. And each case is decided really on the facts. And I could tell you like I had a the firm my firm we I was involved in a case down in South Jersey for and it was involving a
a bid award and the a competitor of our clients alleged that the governing body member had a conflict. So who voted to award the contract because her husband worked for the entity. Okay. Except the
entity it was a hospital system and the guy was a doctor and the entity was like they had like you know 10,000 five 10,000 employees right and the guy was like you know the do the the spouse of the governing body member had he was a
specialist a heart something literally had nothing to do with like what the subject of the bid award was but there was a challenge to the bid award board based on the and there the governing
body was only three members. It's a small town. It's crazy. It's a weird form of local government. And so if with the governing body member con if she if she had said I'm not participating, there would only be two members, which
is still a quorum except the the action would have failed because they would have been split one one. But anyway, so this goes before a court down in Camden County and the judge on a preliminary basis and we were arguing, hey, this is
very facts sensitive. We submitted extensive certifications talking about how large the organization was that the do the doctor had like nothing to do. was like a whole another area of the organiz whole thing and the we were arguing the judge had to have a
hearing you know that and the judge on a preliminary basis said there was an appearance of impropriy it didn't look good and voided the action >> we were I I thought honestly I I thought legally it was dead wrong like I didn't
even think it was a because there's cases about large organization which he ignored I think it was a bit resultoriented. He But but with that that was my theory. But the whole point is is that there was a quote appearance
and the judge voided the action. >> Was it overturned? Did you feel it? >> No. Because the client didn't want to. >> It wasn't a principal. >> Yeah. No. No. The client wanted to like they were going to rebid it and the client they they didn't want the attention so they just let it go. We
were counseling them to appeal it because we were saying, "Hey, this is I mean this is like on like a you know an injunction like return date of for an injunction and you know like a preliminary injunction right in the beginning of the case. It was dead wrong
legally judge. >> Yeah, it was a homer job. Let me just say but there but I I so that's the risk though here to same risk right if a judge is you know you don't get a judge you never know my whole you know
>> like most cases a lot of our cases generally don't but like a lot of you know most civil litigation settles espec because you know you don't do you want to have a judge with your you know with your like you know your the the substance of your
matter like a complete risk. So that you know and and in that case that's what happened like there well there was no choice it had to be litigated but yeah that I mean so because the judge said oh it doesn't look good her her husband works for the entity and that there's an
appearance okay so that's why when in doubt if you think it's close you know just step aside it's not you know not worth it for you or the board or the township and every you know we've always acted very ethically and
honorably here since so I'm you know there's no personal you know but you know I just you don't want that in your life you know what I mean like why risk having this you know fight this fight you know free you know personally it's not worth it
>> well plus we have nine solid people here so one person steps down there's certainly enough >> yeah exactly >> take good care of the take care of business >> unlike the form of government that only had re-elected official. >> Um, so that's my summary.
>> Thank you. >> I have one comment. What if one of us up here on the board actually was the applicant >> wanting a variance? That's kind of
what would happen. They only order to go to another I think it would go to another board. May go to another town even. >> Yeah, because I know for like elected officials if they're doing home inspections or have any sort of permit stuff. >> Yeah, they send it
>> and not they send it they send it outside. I I had it uh I had an elected official who again not in Howell who was um he needed and he was doing a lot of work at his house and then they ended up contracting
with the adjoining municipality to do the inspection. So yeah, I think that would go I'll double check that Rich, but I I think that would go e well either the planning board would step in here or the or it would have to go to another town. In the
past, we've had that, but the the person just re, you know, exposed himself and we heard the case and uh made a choice. We didn't have to, you know, go to a different board. >> Yeah. >> And we didn't even replace the guy.
>> So, the board member had made the application. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How long ago was that time? >> I would say about 18 years ago. >> There's any new case law between then and now. I don't know,
>> but it was just treated as just another case. >> Sounds simple. >> Yeah, that's >> in that case probably. >> Well, let's say that person wanted to build a warehouse and was looking for a use variance
>> with flex space. >> I don't think that would be the same result. >> Right. >> It was just one little case. Yeah, I'll probably >> I get it. No, I'm just saying again very facts sensitive kind of inquiry. >> Fill my warehouse.
>> You can skip that, right? >> Yeah. Andy, are you going to do anything in the future on litigation pertaining to just the zoning board, you know, pending cases, cases that have processed and uh >> sure, >> you know, teaching us what to watch out for. Yeah,
>> that um the planner has it magazine that we receive has the legal cases in the back and they're all pretty >> I don't like when they put it digital. I like >> subscribe to it, right? >> She sends it, but she sends you the
paper like the copy. >> Yeah, I do it on my phone. doing all this around it. >> I take it to lunch. Like I go out to lunch, I take it to lunch. >> Okay. Is there any other questions?
>> No. >> Thank you, Andy. >> Okay, Andy. Thank you so much. >> You're welcome. And I'll I'll email I'll email this through with Eileen or Lisa so you guys can have >> Okay. If there's nothing else, our next meeting is uh a April.
>> April. Do you have the date on our next meeting, Lisa? >> Do you know the next next meeting date? >> April 13th. >> April 13th. >> Oh, okay. >> So, that will be the day after Easter is what?
>> Okay. So, we got a little a little break. >> So, everybody have a have good Easter passed over whatever. >> And um at the time, I'll entertain a motion to close.
Second by Jose. All in favor?