Heat. Heat. Good evening. How Town Township Board zoning board of adjustment, Monday, June 22nd, 2026. Lisa, could we have an opening statement? I hereby declare this meeting of the How Township zoning board to be open
adequate notice having been given pursuant to the New Jersey Open Public Meeting Act in the following manner. First, on December 16th, 2025, a copy of said notice was emailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger. Second, on December 16th, 2025, a copy of said
notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell. Third, on December 16th, 2025, said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the How Township Municipal Building, 4567 Route 9, Howell Township, New Jersey. In
accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety, please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room. Furthermore, smoking is not permitted in the municipal building. Please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible
future broadcast on How Township TV77. Thank you. >> Thank you, Lisa. Could we have a roll call? >> Mr. Barillo >> here. >> Mr. Caner, >> present. >> Mr. Hughes >> here. >> Mr. O'Donnell >> here.
>> Mr. Orosco is excused. Mr. Ryan is excused. Miss Scottson >> here. >> Mr. Kabarakus >> here. >> Chairman Mertens >> present. You have a quirk. >> Okay. At this time, could everybody rise for the pledge of allegiance and a
moment a brief moment of prayer for the military serving abroad? >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all. Thank you. >> Okay, Andy, could you swear in our professionals? >> You swear the testimony you give will be the truth. >> I do. >> Your name for the record? >> Charles Conliff, >> Jennifer Beam. >> Professionals sworn, Mr. Chairman.
>> Thank you, Andy. Okay. The next order of business approval minutes regular meeting March 23rd 2026 eligible voters Burillo Caner Hughes O'Donnell Arasco Ryan Scottson Cabaracus and Merrens do I have a motion
>> motion to approve >> secondary Tom with the second roll call second >> Mr. O'Donnell >> thank you Mr. Marillo >> yes >> Mr. Caner >> yes >> Mr. Hughes. >> Yes.
>> Mr. O'Donnell. >> Yes. >> Miss Scottson. >> Yes. >> Mr. Karakis. >> Yes. >> Chairman Merren. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. Minutes are approved. >> Okay. Do we have any correspondence? >> Uh, none.
>> Wow. First time for everything. Okay. Resolutions before the board tonight. Case number BA25-9 Stewart Street LLC. Resolution granting variance and design
waiverss for construction of a single family dwelling in septic system on an undersized lot. Eligible voters Cancer Hughes, Ryan, Scottson, and Cavarakus. >> I'll make a motion. >> Mr. Hughes with a motion. >> Seconded. >> Second by Mr. Caner. Roll call.
>> Mr. Caner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Hughes. >> Yes. >> Miss Scottson? >> Yes. >> Mr. Cabarakis. >> Yes. >> Resolution is memorialized. >> Okay. Thank you. Next is case number BA21-178. Gabrieli How Realy LLC. Resolution
granting use variance and amended preliminary and final site plan eligible voters Burillo Caner Hughes Ryan Scottson Kabaracus and Merens. Do I have a motion? >> I'll make a motion to approve it. >> Mr. Burillo. I'll second.
>> Second. Mr. Kabaracus. Roll call. Mr. Burillo, >> yes. >> Mr. Caner, >> yes. >> Mr. Hughes, >> yes. >> Miss Scottson, >> yes. >> Mr. Cabaracus, >> yes. >> Chairman Merren, >> yes. >> Resolution is memorialized. >> Last resolution case number BA234A.
Amin Realy LLC. Resolution granting amendment amended preliminary and final site plan. El voters Hughes O'Donnell, Rosco, Ryan, Scottson, Kabarakus, and Merrens. Do I have a motion? >> Make a motion to approve.
>> Second. >> Okay. Glenn with the motion with second. >> I can't I can't do it. >> A motion to approve then. >> I'll second. >> Second by Mr. Kaparakus. Okay. Roll call. >> Mr. Hughes? >> Yes.
>> Mr. O'Donnell? >> Yes. >> Miss Johnson? >> Yes. Mr. Kabarakus. >> Yes. >> Chairman Martins. >> Yes. >> Resolution is Memorialas. >> Okay. Really get down to business. Um applications for the board tonight. Case
number BA264. Bernard Garnier. Type use variance. Description application. Bernard J. Grenade Jr. is applicant and owner seeking approval to convert the existing seasonal farm handquarters in the
accessor accessory pole barn to a second yearround rental apartment on premise known as block 183 lot 34.02. The expiration is August 18th, 2026.
Good evening. >> Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. My name is Alan Kaplan, law office of Kapinder here in Route 9 representing the advocate at Bernard Gene Jr. and with me tonight also is our
engineer Jeff Bro. Um, one thing is we're gonna Everyone's gonna have to speak up a little bit while it's raining because up here it sounds like the roof's going to cave in on us. So >> Oh, okay. This is my point, too. >> Don't touch it.
>> Okay, good. Uh, this now or when you up there? >> When you're Okay, we'll call as our first witness, Mr. the applicant, Mr. Garnet. Okay, >> Rich, do you want all witnesses sworn?
>> Yeah, let's do that. >> So, the board likes to swear anyone who's >> swear them all. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh, >> okay. >> I'm kind of speaking as a member of the public. >> Okay. Okay. >> Well, then when you come up, you >> Yeah. Yeah, we can.
>> So, if you could stand, raise your right hand. >> Do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? No. >> And state your names for the record. Spell you last. >> Bernie, middle initial J. Last name Gne. G E R N A Y.
>> I'm Jeffrey L. Goen. Architect and planner. >> Okay. Witnesses are sworn. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. Stand. Just talk loud so they can hear you. Okay. >> Mr. Gay, when did you purchase this property?
>> August uh 2023. >> And uh who did you purchase it from? Harvey Cohen. >> That's uh Harvey Cohen was a police officer here in town for many years. >> Yes. >> Since passed away. >> Yes. >> Was he alive when you bought it from him? No. Bought the park. He had passed.
>> Yes. >> Okay. And on the property uh on Brickyard Road there, uh uh were there buildings and structures already there? >> Yes. >> Um and you um
what what was there? It was a four bedroomedroom house on the back part of the lot and there's a uh approximately 3,000 foot pole barn with an attached apartment.
>> And are those the same buildings that are there now? >> Yes. >> Have you increased their size in any way? >> No. >> And you had a survey done of the property back in uh when you bought it in 2023, >> correct? Is that true copy of one of those surveys? >> Yes.
>> And it shows where those buildings are. >> Yes. >> And they're in the same place today as they're shown right on our application site plans, right? >> Yes. Yes. >> Same buildings. Same place. Yes. No other new ones. >> No. >> Hey Allan, it may be helpful. >> Yes. >> If anyone could see what you're looking
at. So we have >> I'll hand that in. >> Well, we have them here. >> Oh, okay. Great. >> So you have the benefit of uh our uh technology. a little old for technology, but thank you for the help. Yeah, that's it.
You see it up there? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> It's really getting loud up here with the >> So, that's the survey you were looking at, the one that's on the screen now, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. And uh
so the the the back building, the one further in the rear is the main house. Correct. >> Correct. >> And what does that building consist of? >> It's a it's a it's a house, four bedrooms,
twotory. >> And uh where's the kitchen for the for that house? Kitchen's located uh on the second floor upstairs. >> And uh there's no kitchen on the first floor, correct? >> No. >> Okay. Is there a bathroom on the first
floor? >> Yes. >> And a bathroom on the second floor? >> Yes. >> So there's some bedrooms upstairs and some bedrooms downstairs, but only one kitchen. >> Correct. There's three bedrooms upstairs and one bedroom downstairs. >> And the rest is more of a storage barn area. >> Garage. >> Garage.
>> Two garages. And that's the condition it's in today is exactly the same condition as when you bought it. Correct. Correct. >> Same kitchen appliances, same bathroom fixtures. >> And then you have Oh, and do you have do you know when that house was actually
built? The house I believe was built in 1984. Can I believe it? >> The pole barn was built in 1989, I believe. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> The poleb barn was built in 1984
with the attached apartment and the home was built in 1989. >> So the home when you said the 1989 is the main house in the back. >> Correct. >> The rearmost building. >> Yes. And then now the the the
other house, the smaller structure was actually the first part first building built according to the records you've seen. >> Yes. >> And that was built when? >> 1984. >> Mr. Kaplan. >> Yes. >> Just a c out of curiosity, how does your
client uh have knowledge of when those structures were built? >> I was getting to that. Good question. There came a time when you uh had to get a CEO for the for these properties to get uh to get a tenant. Correct. >> Correct.
>> And that's when you ran into difficulties that you're here now for. Right. >> Yes. >> And when you were looking into it at that time, you were given some u uh inspection and building records. Correct. >> Correct. >> And the building department showed you the records for when
both of those structures were built. Yes. >> And inspected for in uh electrical service and past electrical service and everything. >> And that's where you got the years from from when they were built. Correct. >> Correct. >> Do you have copies of those applications? Cuz the ones that I have
do not show the building of a house. Shows the building of a pole barn and a twocar garage. No house whatsoever. We have no record of any house being built on the property. Do you have any kind of documentation? Doesn't say it was. No, it doesn't say.
>> Then the testimony should not be that the house was built. Structures were built, but not a house. >> That's when the structures were built. Correct. >> Correct. >> And those are way those structures are the same way when you bought it in 23 as they are today.
>> Yes. And when you bought the property, there were were there tenants in those two structures? >> Yes. >> And were there tenants in those structures during the time you owned it also? >> Yes.
>> Not always the same? >> No. >> And you live here in town, right? >> Yes. Did you purchase this property to live there yourself? >> No. >> What was the reason you bought this property? >> Well,
I originally was going to use it for my company. >> I don't know. >> Louder. >> Is this the mic? >> This doesn't just >> No, that's it. That's the microphone. >> Yeah, just bring it closer. Sorry. There you go. You
>> can talk right into it. >> Don't be shy. The um the home is actually uh purchased for the future so that my daughter who's sitting next to my wife will have you know home. She's into farming and horses. So we basically
purchased to continue that so she can live in town not having to leave town because of the market and the price of houses. So we purchased it to keep the house longterm for my daughter. And being that it was 5 acres and a farm, we want to continue that.
>> Is the site being farmed now? >> Currently, not. It is not because it's been vacant since September of 2023. I'm sorry, September of 2025. >> When was the last time that it had a farmland assessment on the property?
>> 2024. >> And that was the prior >> uh actually 2025. It was actually August. >> Okay. So, and then you say it's your intent to continue the farming use at some point in the future with your daughter to move in there,
>> correct? I mean, she's not going to move in there tomorrow, but >> Yeah. I mean, >> in the future. >> Yeah. So, you don't live there. How old is your daughter right now? >> She's 15. >> Okay. All right. >> So, it was purchased for the to use the
property to continue to develop the farm, take care of it. Is that Um, yes. So, >> you keep mentioning farm. Are you aware that you've lost farm assessment and that you
will not be able to gain it because you don't have enough acreage in order to maintain the farm? >> Correct. We still would like to continue farming, but I'm not looking for the tax break. >> Okay. >> How many acres do you have? >> Five. Five acres.
So, it's sufficient enough to for the farm purposes you want, but not enough to get the tax advantage that the state provides. >> Correct. >> And you're okay with that? >> Yes. >> And it is zoned to in an area for farming would be allowed.
>> Yes. Brickyard Road is mostly farms. We have some pictures of the interior of the property. I could just got them tonight so I don't have >> Well, they have to be come over palent here. >> All right.
>> Thanks. And then uh these these are not electronically submitted, right? >> No. >> Okay. >> Well, we have to What are they going to be? >> They're all the same. Each set's uh >> each set is the same.
>> What's that? >> Do we have to sign them? Andy, >> that's different. Okay. So, this will be A12. We'll mark it as maybe on the back of you could write A12. >> No. >> Well, at least from one of them and then
we'll pass it. >> Hey, John. Um, so you're saying there's only one structure that you're showing any records for, correct? So, I found records for both structures. The only thing is that none of them indicated uh
either one of those structures being approved as a home. So, the first structure is approved as a pole barn. The second one was approved as a twocar garage. Why that was done that way? The pole barn uh at one time when it did
have farmland assessment, uh a pole barn would be accessory to the farm. So, that would be allowed. the two guard garage. You know, it's hard to say with the limited amount of documents that I that I was able to find on the property. >> Yeah. Because the property was built in like 50 and 60. Was that historical
record? >> So, um I couldn't say why they approved that second structure other than maybe it was being used in a for farm purposes, but usually a a detached garage wouldn't be approved unless you
had uh a house because that's accessory to the home. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> I think so. >> The one I saw >> did you mentioned the year. >> So, one of the one of the So, based on the historical records, one of the one
of the structures was built in 1950. The other one was built in 1960. Whether something was done after the fact and it's not recorded, that we don't have because as John explained, some of those records are missing. So, or may not be available. So something may have happened on the property in during that
time frame when the previous owner had it uh or owners had it. So but we don't have any there's no records about it >> outside of the historical. >> Mr. Gren. >> Yes. >> Are you are you saying in what was it 1983 and 1989? I think you had put years
out there. Were they improved upon during those years because they were built in the 1950s. >> You know what the prior homeowner was a police officer in town. and he died and I his wife knew very little about this property because they didn't live there. They lived in Homedale.
>> So they use this as a you know a place for whatever officer in the department was new on the job or divorced or needed somewhere to stay. So I his wife didn't I I couldn't have any answers to a lot of the stuff I had
questions about because he had passed away. M >> so um I know I know I know from the neighbor next door he told me that um a Chinese family owned it >> and I believe that's who Harvey had bought it from. I don't know what year
that was but um I think most of the houses on that street were developed in during the time that Ann Marie mentioned. >> I just don't have proof of it. >> We have that I have in the records that Mr. Gay gave us. I'm sure John's seen
these uh 8889 uh they're doing electrical inspection for 200 amp service on the main house with uh lighting fixtures, switches, outlets, lights.
>> Has anybody has anybody looked at like historical satellite of this or anything or I don't see what was there from back in when Marie's talking about? >> I don't know. So, I haven't got back that far, but if you look at 1995, Google Earth 85 is not great. 1995, you
can see like two structures with approximately the same footprint have existed there. So, and I just want to clarify. So, there's there's the pole barn which has you're seeking to get approval to validate uh a dwelling unit use in that
structure as a rental dwelling unit, right? And then there's the separate structure that is a single family home. The application says we're seeking to legalize a second residential apartment unit. So like where are all the like dwelling units? There's the the home, right? The two-story home. Is there any
rental unit in that? >> So the the house is set it's a fiveacre property and it's set very far back off the street. >> It's the rear. >> You can see the driveway. It's pretty long. >> The fourbedroom house in the back of the property.
>> The pole barn is probably >> 30 feet. Okay. So, >> that's the main house with the dot on it. >> No, that's the pole barn. >> That's the pole barn. >> Okay. >> Blue structure is the house.
>> Gray. I don't know. I might be color blind. You're more color than >> Which one is the >> from there? It looks like blue >> from that picture >> on the left. >> All right. So, I'm going to ask him that again louder. Which of these two buildings are shown in the picture is
the main house, the four bedroomedroom. >> The That's the structure on the left. That's the home. >> The one that's kind of bluish on the date. Okay. >> And uh to the right of it, there's one with a red dot. >> To the right is the this pole barn. And to the rear of the
pole barn, it's there's the um adjacent apartment, which um which, you know, I mean, So, so the floor plan you provided, there's a first story with a kitchen, a
bathroom, then there's stairs to the upstairs which has, you know, a couple of different rooms up there. That's the that's just one unit, >> correct? >> And then so the application says we're seeking to validate a second rental unit. So the single family home is the first rental unit, correct?
>> Okay. >> Yeah. The single family home is the primary unit >> that has four bedrooms, a kitchen, correct? >> Yes. >> And what we're seeking is the approval for the small one-bedroom apartment.
>> So, I guess I kind of share Charlie's confusion because it says that you're looking to convert seasonal farm handers to a year-round rental apartment, but you can't have farm labor with no farm.
They did have form They did have form assessment and they did have form labor. >> So, but haven't had it for a while, >> year and a half >> since last I guess technically last August. >> So, I don't know if that converting from
farm labor. I mean, obviously you said it was vacant, right? >> When I took it over >> Yeah. Or now? >> No, it was not. It was actually there was a there was a a farm hand who who lived there for I
mean probably 20 something 30 years. >> So when you bought the property, was there active farming on it? >> Yes. >> And so you chose to stop farming? >> No, I chose >> I didn't I didn't choose to stop farming. I found out that >> Yeah.
>> the property wasn't technically big enough to be farm assessed from the beginning, >> but because it's five acres and it has some structures on there that take away from the five acres. I didn't know any of this stuff. I was listen, he was a PBA president in the police department. I thought the guy was doing everything
the right way. And and you know, it was like John kind of when he came to the property, he was like, "Surprise, this, this, and this." And you know, the good news was like, "Hey, everything they did in the house and the apartment was done the right way. I don't know why this guy never got permits for it."
>> Well, here's my question, though. At some point, farming activity ceased. When did that happen? probably in September when I had to vacate everybody out of the houses. >> I don't >> September of 2025. >> Yeah. I don't really have time. >> Did they get a citation or something from town?
>> No, it was just basically I I applied to get a CEO and John met me at the property. He walked through and he basically said, "Bernie, this this this is no permits here." I'm like, "What?" It didn't make any sense to me. I mean, I talked to others in town and they just said, "This doesn't make any sense. How
how could this be possible?" So I had to, you know, John basically said, "You got to get these people out of here, Bernie." And I did. So I followed everything he had said. This was, this has been nine months now, and I don't have time to farm that property, do what
I want to do on the property because of my company. So um, it kind of ceased, but I want to continue it like immediately. So to answer your question, the citations that were issued here were based on complaints that we received about businesses being on the property.
Uh and that kind of opened up the door to all the other issues that we found after the fact with regards to there not being a co for the homes records of the second home or the the apartment in the in the pole barn, which is the uh
structure with a dot over it. So, um, and then one thing just kind of led to another where it shouldn't have been farm assessed once again just because, uh, you need five farmable acres and with both of these structures on the property and the property being five
acres, you don't meet the the requirements. So, I mean, we allow farming all over Howell, but you don't get the benefit of being called an actual farm or being a qualified farm unless you have the minimum acreage and you produce at least $2,500 a year in
that. So, I don't know, and I'll be honest with you, I don't know what was being farmed on this property prior to and we're not making the accusation that Mr. Guinea, the applicant, uh, did any of this work. It was just there. It was discovered. tons of violations here and we gave him
the opportunity to make it right. So that's why you're you're hearing this case uh before you. >> So let me ask this. Do we are we kind of putting a cart before the horse or would that be like inspected and looked at or are you okay with >> So first we need I mean he's here to try
to um and >> I I I don't want to put words into their mouth, but they're trying to legalize a second unit. I'm telling you that we don't have any records of the first unit being there. So, uh, first we need to figure out what you guys are going to approve and then based on that, we'll
let him know what he's going to be able to apply for. Okay? >> So, if you legitimize one unit, then he'll have one rental. If you legitimize both, then he'll have two, but he'll have to go back and pull permits for both units because I don't have records for any of these
>> structures being converted into livable space. >> Okay. So, all right. Gotcha. Thank you. >> John, I got a question. Did you ever go back and check uh the tax role to see what taxes were paid on it for like the 20 years that the officer was there? Was he paying farm excess?
>> So it was once again as Mr. Gay indicated it was incorrectly assessed as farm. I'm guessing at some point the five acres was being farmed and then once he started putting structures maybe it's whoever the assessor was didn't pick up on the fact that he didn't have.
>> So if he didn't buy the place this would have just kept going the way it was going. Correct. >> So it was like 20some years just going the way it was going. He buys it and then he's handed uh you know >> I mean that's part of your due diligence, right? When you purchase a property. >> Yeah. But I I don't understand how the
town didn't ever step in for 20some years and straighten this matter. >> I can't speak for prior >> I know. But I I know the officer that owned the property and I don't see why it's his problem now if he doesn't want uh >> Well, he's the current owner. >> He don't want it as a farm though. He's
not asking to be far. >> He said he does want to go. Yeah. He's not going to get farm assessment, but he wants to farm the property. Yes. And it is, you know, and it's unfortunate, but John's correct. It is his problem because the structures on the property are not there legally. So technically,
if the town wanted to, they could tell them to demolish those those structures. That's not what we're here to do at all. But he needs to legitimize it because he bought the property three years ago and now and along with all the issues that
the property bring. So, it's unfortunate, but we can't just say, "Well, it was, you know, we know the guy that owned it beforehand and all these structures were great and so now we're just going to let it go." We can't do that. That's not >> No, I I know you can't, but you can't correct what lasted for all this time.
And he's looking to correct it by having a two rentals on a 5 acre property, and I don't really see any problem with that. So the issue becomes the second unit, the apartment was farm labor. As a farm, you are
allowed to have an apartment for farm labor. In this zone, you are not allowed to have another unit on the property. One single family home and a farm period. End of there is no apartment permitted. So, first and foremost, I
think what John was saying, we have to figure out how the house got here and to in theory legitimize the house. Secondly, then the question is, do you want to allow multif family at this location?
And if the answer is no, then that unit can be available for farm labor, but it would not be available for regular rental. If you say fine to the rental and you may be in the minority, I don't know, we haven't gotten to that point in the meeting. But if the board feels they
don't care, then they would approve multiple principal structures on a single lot and the multif family use, both of which are not permitted. >> Jen, um, so you can still, even though it doesn't qualify to technically assess as a farm, you can still have a
residence or a unit for farm labor on that property. They can still farm the property. They just would not realize the tax benefit of it. >> I think you need like an >> allowed to have somebody there. >> They're allowed to have an apartment >> if it's a farm. Yes. >> Okay. >> I just my concern is is that it's not a
farm now. >> And we don't have an idea of when it will become a farm. And so at the end of the day, I think personally any CO for that unit should be linked to reestablishment of
farming activity. Otherwise, it becomes just a multif family site in town and there's no intention or there's no kind of requirement to farm it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But D, so it sounds like we would need a consensus then that we need to
legitimize whatever potential unit quote unquote that gets put in there and then determine next whether if assuming the applicant decides to put the farm there, then be able to justify keeping that
unit since it's not zoned for multi-unit. It's just not. um you know turning if if they're going to be willing to farm it give it a time frame and then determine about putting a farm you know putting farm hand or farm labor
>> I don't mean to interrupt so this is never going to be a farm unless he becomes a commercial farm >> so as it stands now he doesn't have the acreage to qualify as a legitimate farm farming an actual qualified farm and the act of farming growing something in your
backyard just because you plant a couple tomatoes. It's technically a farm related activity, but it doesn't make you an actual farm. It's just something that you do. So, he could most certainly plant tomatoes, corn, he can he could set up maybe a little stand and sell whatever he's got, but he doesn't he's
not an actual farm. So, I I I want you guys to understand that. And the farm labor. though. I So, so then it sounds like the farm the housing that went along with the farm is not really can be legitimized.
>> No, it can't. You're right. >> Farm. Yeah. >> As as accessory or related to farming. It would just be a second principal use in the zone, you know, not in the zone. It would be too, you know, a second >> apartment or home
>> and it becomes a slippery slope to try to validate as part of approval like you know the second use or second principal dwelling use uh being tied to the farm, right? Because like >> he has the intent to do it in the future but then the prior owner could just decide I don't want to do that and then
you know who's out there to check this whether the farm >> exactly >> Yeah. It's tough though. You could plant two tomatoes or you could have a whole row crop of, you know, like the threshold. If you're a Q farm, it's it's very black and white. That's that's the challenging part. You know, it's almost
like you can recognize that this structure has existed and was associated with some prior farming use on the property, but like it's a second residential use and like can the lot and the acreage and the character of the neighborhood like accommodate a second residential dwelling use on the
property? You know, I don't know. it it it becomes difficult to tie it to the farm use because how do you track that? You know, that's a challenging thing. >> But also challenging also would be >> if he had a few hundred more square feet of land to qualify for the farmland
assessment, then he could have that for the farm farm hand, but you don't check to see if the guy living in there is actually doing any farm labor. He could be a salesman for uh IBM somewhere. He just lives there. But it's very easy when you want to renew your rental
certificate or whatever on a yearly basis to see whether or not the property is still a qualified farm when there isn't a vehicle to become a qualified farm. It just creates a gray area for the township to be able to say, "Oh, is four tomatoes enough for it to be a farm or you know what I mean?" So my
>> Well, is John is there this might be a silly question, but is there a CO for when a farm hand changes or is it just on the farm to >> So currently that's considered a uh it falls under the rental statute. So, uh, there's some kind of compensation for that. So, they would need to to register.
>> Well, I'm saying on a qualified farm, you have a farm hand. Do you have to have a CO or every time you change the person? >> Yes. Yes, you do. >> Thank you. >> John, if I may, you're talking about selling a few tomatoes, put the stand out there. >> If if he grew
rows of uh tomato plants, he could have a roadside stand selling the tomatoes as a farm. Correct. >> Not as a farm. How does a farm guys sell the tomatoes off the >> Why don't we let the applicant put his case on?
>> I just want the definition of what is a commercial farm? >> I mean, can he sell firewood and he's a not a farm where he gets the tax relief, but he's a commercial farm. What's the difference between the two? >> So, a commercial farm would when you don't have the acreage, the five
farmable acres, you have to prove that you have at least $50,000 in sales. uh per year in order to become a qualified farm. And then you you uh you would apply to the county a board and you would receive uh the right to farm protections that are afforded a
qualified farm, which would only need $2,500 a year in in sales. >> So if he wanted to be a commercial farm and and sell firewood there and sell Christmas trees, all he'd have to do is plant them and he could still have both apartments. Am I missing something here?
He have to produce. >> He would have to do that for three. He would have to produce at at >> given this specific situation, he would have to sell $50,000 worth of trees that he planted there. He's not allowed to import it from from anywhere else. He would have to grow it on this property.
That's the whole that's the whole purpose of right to farm. It's to protect the farmers to to allow them to live off their land. So because this specific property doesn't have five farmable acres, he would have to produce $50,000 a year.
>> I haven't before. So that's a a lot more than a regular farm. >> So he isn't going to do that. That's for sure. >> I just want to one make thing one very clear. >> I am not looking for a farmland assessment. I know whatever happened between the prior owner and the town,
whatever happened was wrong. Okay? But I own a tree service in town. I see hundreds of farms. Hugo's farm, this farm. They're not farm assessed, but they're still called a farm. They still farm. I see animals. I see, you know, fruits, vegetables. I I see hundreds of
them in town that are on two acres, one acre, three acres, four acres. So my point is I still intend to do farming on this property. But just like hundreds of other properties in how that have decent size, you're not doing that in Glenn Arden, obviously. But my point is I
don't care about the tax break. I want to continue the farming. If my daughter wants to have four horses on this property one day and we want to do it like tons of other residents, that's all we're looking for. I'm not looking to ask for a farm assessment at this point. I know that's not going to happen how it
happened. something was something was >> so I I I'm just going to say that's not before this board. They can't grant you a >> I'm not asking for >> No, I know that. I'm just saying like they that would be the tax assessor's office, right? >> Oh, yeah. So the only reason that the
issue of quote farming is uh relevant is relates to the use of the residence the smaller apartment as as as attendant to farm farming labor. I think that was John's point.
>> Ernie, does that one apartment is that something you need? I mean, is that where your daughter might be staying or I mean, >> what's the purpose of keeping it if you >> keeping the apartment? >> Yeah. >> Um, basically, I had a guy, you know,
there's been was a guy there for 30 years who lived in there, took care of the property. So, my plans were to continue this. I can't farm that property. I don't have the time. Um, but the point was to have someone living at
on that uh and the apartment to take care of the property. It's five acres. I I done a lot of work there when I bought the property, but >> there's a lot more needs to be done there and >> we've been working hard at it. >> The but who's living in the who's living
in the four bedroomedroom house >> currently? Nobody. Now, now when I when I had that home, >> I mean here I wasn't look losing the >> who was there. >> There was a before I was there. >> No, no,
>> before you had to ask everybody tell them. >> So, I had a father and son staying there. I mean, fourbedroom house. I had a father and son staying there. They they would like to come back. I'm not here trying to take advantage of rental laws. I had two people living in a four-bedroom house. Okay. So, they're
displaced. Um, the apartment was Adam who basically works at several farms and he would dedicated to come get the place cleaned up with me, which I've spent a lot of money cleaning up the outside of it and developing it and taking out garbage trees and redoing things out in
the outside. So, um, he was there from when I came on board. He and he did he did a great job and hopefully we can, you know, have him continue what he started. >> Are we talking about a second department in that pole barn? There's there's >> there's I I thought you said there's
already one in there. That's that's this one. >> Two buildings, two two two places. >> Okay. Gotcha. >> Each one has one. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> But these pictures are from the apartment. >> I'll go over with you. >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. You're holding up Mr. Mer's
holding up the one right now. Where's that? >> That's the kitchen in the apartment. >> Okay. That's what I thought. >> Inside the pole horn, >> correct? >> Yeah. All right. And the next picture shows the same room. >> That's the kitchen inside the pole bar >> of the apartment. >> Then there's a bathroom with a blue floor.
>> That's the bathroom of the uh downstairs apartment. >> And then there's a picture of a bathroom with a white floor. >> That's the uh hold on. Upstairs uh bathroom. >> That's the main house. >> In the main house.
>> And then there's a kitchen with a picture of a kitchen with a brown floor. Where is that? the upstairs kitchen of the house. >> The main house. >> I don't think anybody's listening. >> No, I am listening. No, I am I am listening. >> The main bathroom. >> No, she
>> Excuse me. Um, Miss Johnson has a uh has a question that I think is warranted because maybe we can stop. >> Yeah, we can kind of stop all. Yeah. So, all right. So, my question is that way first. So there's two different
potential pri like rent I'm going to call them rentals just for the sake of conversation two units currently that we're discussing. So, is the concern the fact that they want to make both of them in two separate buildings, you know, two
separate structures, rental units versus adding because we're not adding a second one to any potential building or uh structure. We're all there's two separate rentals. >> So, the the fact that the let's just talk about the single family home. Yeah.
Right. the fact that the applicant is interested in renting out that unit as a single family home and I don't think it matters if it's a a fatherson or what have you because the definition of family is very broad if they're using the same kitchen facilities if there's
you know shared bathroom facilities etc. It could be like a fraternity and they're still categorized as a family in a single family house. So, there's nothing that would preclude him from renting out the house. >> Single family homes are permitted in the zone. Clearly, it meets all the setbacks
and and whatnot because the property is so large. So, you know, I understand that we have the legitimize that structure, but it is permitted in the zone quite honestly if not for the other if not for the apartment. and he came in tomorrow to build the single family
home, he could pull permits and build the home. So, I'm not really worried so much about that. >> In my opinion, the crux of the application is is the second unit. So, based upon the definition and John, you know, regurgitated to you the definition
of what a farm is in Howell and then also it's consistent with the right to farm act which is regulated by the county a board. This technically is not a farm. So if you don't qualify under right to farm, which this would not >> I get all that,
>> then you're not eligible for farm labor. >> So basically the application is can I keep a rental apartment and have this as a multif family site >> even as two separate dwellings? Okay, fine.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. So this would be kind of like an over a garage apartment attached. This is kind of the same. Okay. >> Yes. So it's so it's you know >> our ordinance prohibits two um primary structures on a single lot and
essentially that's what you're you're deciding if the second structure principal structure is going to be allowed on his and then after that after that approval if he wants to rent it or live in it he can after he goes through all the regular permit process. >> What if the two buildings were joint somehow?
>> Then that's a single structure >> then then we wouldn't even be talking. Correct. >> To prove that. >> Why don't you build a a breezeway or something? >> Yeah, we talked 30 ft, right? >> We talked about that 30 something sim very similar two weeks ago. >> Yes. >> Okay.
>> Can I just ask for what? I'm sorry, John. Go ahead. >> No, I mean I think is that a legitimate >> solution? >> Can you have two separate families living? Oh, >> I mean if it's if it's got a >> if it's got a shared roof line, it's technically one structure.
>> Yeah. So now you start getting into the technicalities. >> Now you start getting into technicalities of u you know are you truly living as a single unit right? If you're just building a breezeway. So now we would look at this as still an
apartment. It's almost like converting your garage into its own little apartment with its own kitchen, its own entrance. And it kind of you're almost defeating the purpose of our ordinances which tries to prohibit this to begin with. So, so even though they're joined, if you have two separate units, two
separate families, let's just say, still prohibited, >> correct? >> Okay. Okay. So, that wouldn't be the solution then. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> So, is the remainder of the pole barn just like storage or something? Just Okay. I just >> Yeah. And I'll just note for the board's
record, so the board of health did issue a memo on this application. uh they have an approval for from 1993 for a septic system for a fourbedroom dwelling. So I don't think it's the principal dwelling that we're really questioning here. It's just that you know the town and even the
board of health doesn't have any record of this other unit being built and any accommodation for it. So if the board is inclined to act favorably, they're going to have to go satisfy the board of health either have an engineer certify that the septic system can handle this new unit or they might have to modify it to provide additional, you know,
infrastructure for that. And we agree to that. We understand that that's a necessity and it would be conditioned upon your any approval you give us would be conditioned upon the board of health saying the septic system is sufficient for the for the use. We understand that.
>> Okay. >> And you did I'll get back. You did make the septic improvements that got that did get inspected. Actually, I have a septic guy ready to replace the system for the apartment like immediately. >> Well, approval. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to Yeah, that
that is part of the >> Okay. >> And um we went through and uh you're familiar with this area. What what what's this is on Brickyard? What what's that area like there >> as far as uses? >> I mean, anybody who's not familiar with
Brickyard Road, it's mainly farms. I mean, it's there's really no Brickyard Road is no there's no small properties. It's like I think the smallest property is like two acres. So, I mean, there's multiple other multi-detached rentals on Brickyard Road also. So,
we'll just add that. Um, I don't know how many, but there's more than one on smaller properties than mine. So, there's I don't know how many uh 300 Brickyard Road A, 300 Brickyard Road B. There's two separate houses on
properties on Brickyard Road that are being rented right now on on smaller properties. Mine's five acres. Some of those are on two acres. So, there's several on Easy Street. So, it's not there's I don't have the count, but there's
many separate two separate rentals on smaller properties than mine in How Township. >> What is the square footage of the apartment? Um, I don't have it handy. I will. I mean, John walked
>> well with the engineer now. He's here. >> Architect. Sorry. >> It's on the plans. >> Okay. >> Hey, John. Do we have records of some of these other properties that he's referring to? >> That's >> I mean, I would assume we we would. I mean, I don't have them handy,
>> but >> I I I have some of them. There was too many to count. I mean, Brickyard Road has two separate rentals that I saw myself and I wasn't looking hard. Um, I know there's several on Easy Street. There's there's some on Georgia
Tavern. So, the town's got tons of multiple residences that are being rented on one property. >> So, to that end, we don't know the history associated with how that circumstance came to be on all these other properties. For all we know, they
could be farm labor. We have just have no idea and quite honestly if we made mistakes in the past doesn't mean we're going to be destined to continue them in the future. So I like hesitate to depend to to
weigh what's going on on other properties elsewhere in town with no history, no understanding of how the circumstance became um against what is being uh applied for in this instance. They should be looked at independently. The properties I'm
referring to are not large properties. Georgia Tavern does not have acres on these respectfully on Brickyard. >> I don't we don't know. You cannot sit here and tell me how those units came to be. >> You don't know that they got a variance. They didn't get a variance. You don't know if they built the units illegally,
didn't build them illegally. We don't know. So, just because you see them elsewhere doesn't make it okay here. I did look on the township um rental uh that I went through Oprah and found the residences that have several rentals. If mine would have been done right in 1984,
it would have been grandfathered in like the rest of these. >> That's my point. >> Yeah. >> Okay, moving on. Um >> we covered a lot of the questions that uh Jennifer's office had raised in her
uh report. Uh there's a question about signage. You want to the one thing that you want to do in addition to >> satisfying Mammoth County with deceptic is you want to put up a sign. >> Yes. >> What kind of sign? >> Just a general farm name that we chose for the farm and we bought it.
>> Okay. >> Okay. >> And there the exhibit is uh was previously provided. Right. >> Yes. >> 810. John >> John A10. >> Oh, here it is.
>> Yeah. Can we pull that up on the screen or >> see that? >> A10. >> Hey, Jen. >> Cut to the chase on this. If it's not a commercial property, is he allowed to put up a sign? >> Thank you.
Why is that? >> Just the name of the farm and the and the address. >> I mean, I think they're asking for relief >> to allow this sign at the location. >> That's the different That's a different question.
>> Correct. What I would say, too, is that that's a variance and we're going to need to see it a detail of it. That's dimension. And then also where you know a site plan on where it's located because from what I'm understanding where you're showing
it in this exhibit is actually in the right of way of Brick. It's not even on the property. >> Yeah. The they sent over an electronic exhibit that they were planning to introduce tonight. And uh the rightway of Brickary Road here is like unique. It doesn't actually across the property
frontage follow the curvature of Brickyard Road. It actually comes to a point. So, the sign might be set back off the road, but it's technically in our rightway. So, as a board, we can't grant a variance for something to be in the town's rightaway. So, um it would, you know, I don't take objection to the
sign. It just needs to be not in the town's rightway. Um because we can't grant a variance for it not to be uh on someone else's property. >> I could put it behind the property line. It's not >> Well, okay. So, that's Yeah, >> that's good. We got that result there. >> There I'm assuming that there's going to
be testimony to justify the relief that they're seeking. And so this is this would be a variance that they would need to to receive to allow a sign in the AR2. >> Okay. Yeah, we would need that.
>> I'm going to call next witness unless anybody has more any questions for the applicant. >> Are we good? Move on. >> Okay. >> I think I'll stand over. >> Okay. I want to call the engineer Jeff Broers. >> Architect.
>> Architect. Sorry. >> Yes. Thank you. Um >> I wanted to >> qualifications. >> Oh, okay. Qualifications. Um uh went to a five-year architecture program at NGIT from 73. Graduated 1978.
>> Was licensed in 1983. >> And it's your current license is current, right? >> Licenses are current. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. We accept your qualifications. Mr. Chair, you're also testifying as a planner, right? Yeah. So, maybe put those qualifications on the record, too. >> Thank you, Jennifer. I was just gonna
forgot all about that. >> Yes. I I um I also received my planners license um a year or so after that through the endorsement process because a lot of our a lot of the training that planners were getting was included in our curriculum
for five years. So, they allowed us to >> qualify as planners. Sorry, I have to keep changing my glasses sometimes. Um, and I >> Okay, so so as a planner, you're current with all your requirements for that. >> Yes, I am. >> Okay, we'll accept your qualifications
again. >> Mr. Rogan, you've had an opportunity. You prepared these plans for for the board, correct? >> Yes, I did. >> And uh you've had an opportunity to look at We'll start with the engineering report from TNM.
Yes, but I'd like to just add a few comments from the previous discussion. Go ahead, help clarify things a little bit. That would be helpful if you don't mind. Um, so the I wanted to mention that we we did quite a bit of research um and and uh Bernie did some Oprah and we have
quite a few uh records from the permit office u going all the way back and uh as he mentioned there was a permit for the pole building in 1984 but also I believe the health department provided a uh records of a perk test
that was done for a small septic system in 198 1984 which would have only been for that pole building because the other building wasn't built until ' 89 or so. So, uh we believe that there is some kind of a septic there that has been functioning for decades um without any
negative impact or puddling or overflowing or any of the obvious problems that we see with septics. We just don't have it well documented. So, he's willing to replace it if this is approved with a a inspected system.
uh in uh 8889 is when the the permit and correctly stated it was just permitted as a twostory garage with um a storage space above it essentially is what was given out as a permit.
And uh but what's interesting is right after that or almost while it was being built in 1990 is when the septic system was installed for that building. A four-bedroom septic system all with perk test full engineering and inspections. U
so I think it's safe to assume that there was some plan to have occupancy in that building. Otherwise they wouldn't have put a a fourbedroom septic system in. But there there must have been some kind of relaxed um method of approving the um addition of the residence into
that building. We don't know how that could have happened, but it it it obviously happened. And it was right it was during that initial uh construction of 8990 is when that um residence was built. And after looking at both buildings, they it appears to me that
they were both built very well with within code. Uh I didn't see any of the obvious signs of of a backyard guy just throwing an apartment in a building or something. It was built well uh under the current codes at the time. And um if
this is uh approved uh basically there will be built building permits will be issu uh applied for which is what we actually started to do when when Bernie was asked to vacate the units. We we thought he was told at first just just apply for permits and we'll go out and
do the inspections as if you're just doing it now. And under the uh New Jersey DCA um where you run into these situations where where work was done without permits, they've issued guidelines that allows you to treat it almost like a continued certificate of
occupancy where you you basically look for signs of any improper construction and then dig deeper if you see it. But you don't force them to like rip everything out and as if it was a new construction. So, so that was the plan.
And then it was discovered that hey, wait a minute. Uh you you've got to go for permission to keep these two units. Um he would have gotten a permit if there wasn't a second unit. If it was just a single residence, they would have just approved the zoning and the
permits. You know, we would have just gone through it. But the the problem is the second unit which was there again for decades as a it was functioning as a farm hand unit even though there may have been something that either changed or wasn't correctly documented for the
farm assessment. Um let's see. Okay. I want to mention also that in 2023 um natural gas was run into the property and a large propane tank was removed. You might be able to very vaguely see it
in there. I'm used to scrolling and zooming, but um I'll just tell Yeah, you can see the white uh propane tank that was removed. Um and now there's a gas service coming in serving both buildings with uh there with meters and that was
all done with permits and inspections. >> Did you have that done? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, so we we we basically the overview of this is we believe that whatever happened out there was not done in secret, that it was done with
inspections, even though the inspections might have been more like a courtesy to the police chief and sort of like a um a little bit less formal, more relaxed approach to it, but it doesn't look like it was done without
uh the proper procedures to me. And I do get called in to look at buildings occasionally after the fact. Mr. uh you prepared the application and went through things and saw the report. There's a number of uh variances and waivers that are required. Let's go
through with the waivers first. You see do you saw the list of waivers from the engineer? >> Yes. I'll I'll flip to that letter and um I started to write a letter in response to >> Yeah, Rich, I'll just jump in. So, I don't take any exception to any of the
waiverss granted because they're not proposing any major site improvements with the application. They're really just seeking to legalize structures that are already existing here. So, I don't have any issue with those. There are some regulated features on the back side of the property. We just noted for record that if the applicant or any future owner decides to do anything on
this property, they need to do the proper due diligence so they don't get themselves into trouble, right? Um, as far as the relief, they need relief because the residential driveway is over 150 ft. Over 150 ft is supposed to be dry, uh, paved to a certain um, length and width. Uh, this site has existed for
some time. I think we've heard that adnauseium at this point. So, I really don't take exception to that. Uh, they do need technical relief of curbing and sidewalk along the property frontage here. I don't take issues to grant that relief. Looking at the aerials and street view, there's no sidewalk or curbing in the vicinity. Um, you know,
when we do grant the relief, they are required to make contribution to the fund, but they could always seek relief from the governing body of making that contribution. Um, I take no issue. I don't think it's warrants sidewalk and and curbing insulation in this this part of town here. Um, we talked about the
sign. I take no issue. They got to provide details on the side. Just can't be in the rightway because we can't grant relief for that. >> I really don't have any other technical issues from an engineering perspective. It's really just comes down to the second residential unit. And to me, I think we can acknowledge that there was
a farm use on this property and that like the applicant has the best interest to continue some type of farming activity, although not in a fully qualified farm. I just think it creates problems from the board and from code enforcement and like change of tenencies to be able to track that because we're
never going to be able to set a realistic benchmark on like what's a threshold for farming, you know what I mean? and what's sort of >> I have a two raised garden beds and I plant tomatoes. I'm a farm, right? So, I think you need to like look at it separate from that and not necessarily you can acknowledge that there was some
farming activity that happened on here and they have interest to do that in the future, but I just think it creates an unrealistic benchmark for the town to be able to to track that. You know what I mean? So, that's that's my professional opinion. >> Okay. >> Right. So I think that pretty much
summarizes the the waiverss that were raised in the beginning of your letter and I I don't think there were any others that were raised in the planners letter. >> Okay. >> Much of the matter is the uh second structure >> variance. >> Right. And the only other thing I want
to mention that the engineer brought up was something about the proximity to wetlands and topography and the fact that we're not changing anything on these buildings. They're just proposed to remain as they are. no potential disturbance of sight or effect on the uh lowlying areas.
>> Yeah, I don't think we're even thinking that's going to happen. So, >> yeah. >> So, if if um I'd like the um whoever's handling the exhibits to scroll to my sheet C1. >> So, before we go there, if I could just
I acknowledge the fact that this application is not proposing any site improvements or changes. However, we have seen this board and the planning board as well instances where unless there's a physical delineation of those
environmentally sensitive areas, there's the potential to creep. So assuming this is farmed at some point in the future, I would prefer there be some kind of physical delineation along wherever that buffer line is that basically says like
you cannot clear past this mark because otherwise you wind up getting creep into the environmental uh resources on the back end. So, um, nothing crazy like a split rail fence that would delineate like the the limit
of disturbance on the back end so that there is no creep into those environmental resources. >> Would your cl would you be agreeable to that? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> The only thing I would add is is as far as I know, the site has not been
professionally delineated for wetland. >> So, here's what my recommendation would be. they should go to Geo web, pull the mapping showing where the map wetlands are. You know, have an environmental professional give them some type of recommendation on what the buffer would be for that. Show that on the plan and
put a split of fence in. Uh at any point in the future, if they decide to go do farming or do some kind of activities to go further into the back of property, they're going to have to do the proper due diligence at this time. It at least makes the current owner and any future property owner aware that like hey there are regulated features back there
potentially and you know >> buyer beware and be careful what you do on your property, you know, because there could be ramifications for it. So >> I think making them go and get a professional to do an LOI and things like that would be >> I was suggesting that I think that using
the geo web is a perfectly good tool to give an idea of where that is and then That's where that's along that line. >> And I have some of that information on my cover sheet. If you could go to my C1, um I I'll show you a couple of
things I did find uh to try to fulfill the checklist >> that we don't have that electronically. >> Uh the actually all the exhibits should be um should have been ready. They were all sent over. Thank you. Uh
>> yeah, >> I have a USB with all of my exhibits if you want me to hand them to you. >> Just to clarify, C1 is part of the variance plan set that he submitted with the application. And there is a little excerpt that just >> A5 that's exhibit A5 John
>> it it does show you know without aerials or any of the improvements like what wetlands are but I think what we're just asking them is to go to GIS get the line put it on the plan and just you know show it on the plan itself just so that way this property owner and any future
property owner just knows you know hey before I go do something I should go look at this you know cuz you know no one wants to see someone back at the board five or 10 years from now. >> Could I interrupt? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> I own next door.
>> Well, no. Unfortunately, >> I had to get >> No, no, no. >> There will be time, but not yet. >> We're going to be allowing you to talk in a few minutes. If you could zoom in to the lower middle of that page.
Am I talking to Lisa? Are you Are you handling it? >> No, John's doing it. >> Thank you. And just a little bit more to the right. Uh I want to point out that uh right uh right there with a at the
lower by the LLG title block. If you could zoom zoom in that to that picture that is a Google Earth image from 2001 2002 showing that the property was intensively farmed for shrubs and trees in a pretty organized way.
>> I I think that we've beaten the farming to death at this point. We're ready to move on from it. So >> I'm not going to try and say more. I just want you to know I have that on the plan and you >> but that's not what we're asking for. We're asking for you to look on the GIS,
pull up the wetlands, talk to an environmental professional, get what the buffer would be, whether it's 100 uh 50 foot or 150 ft, show that line on a plan, and put a split rail fence at that location. That's what we're asking. >> Okay. If you could back away, I want to see if I have that on the sheet. I I
>> Well, we don't need to resolve that here. It would just be a condition of approval if the board were to grant >> Yeah, exactly. I can tell you that what you have on there showing environmental resources is not great because it shows a stream going right through the back of your property. So, I would encourage you just to use the GIS.
>> Okay. >> All right, then. Um, let's get into the second uh the secondary use. >> Oh my god. >> Issue. >> This is great. >> Positive and negative on that. >> All right. >> Okay. So he's going So right now I think
the planning testimony is where we should be going and then we can open up the public. >> Right. So this is a um a variance application for a it's a use variance because it's we're asking to have two residences on a single family
lot. Um and even though it's it's actually a second principal building uh because of the fact that we have a principal use proposed in the pole building as well as the rear building that creates two principal uses and essentially converts the pole building into a principal building. The pole
building was allowed as an accessory building as a utility building. But now that has a residence it now becomes a second principal building. So there's a variance needed for that second principal building and uh of course the second unit. Um so uh and just to make
clear that in this AR2 zone there are cases where second principal buildings are allowed. So it's really the key is the fact that we have this apartment um in there that's been there for decades. Um
and you know going through you we look for the positive criteria the justifications of that the board can use to to grant a use variance and it's uh typically you need uh either a use that is a special reason or or like a
inherently beneficial use which might be uh you know something like a church or some some clearly understood as inherently beneficial uh which we don't think we have that although we do um recognize that the apartment is a low income. It's we may
not deem it that uh indeed restricted as that, but it it is performing as a needed unit in the town for fulfilling a need for reasonably priced housing and especially for the farm worker who does work in the uh vicinity for several
different farms. Um but we're not really relying on that as our positive proof. The other uh approach to take is is um basically showing that the site is particularly suitable for the
proposed use. And that's more the uh leg that we're trying to to rely on for proving that it's appropriate to allow the second apartment. And you know under under the uh MLUL you
can also talk about hardships as a positive proof uh to fulfill the pro positive criteria and although we don't have typical hardships like odd oddshaped lot or um really bad topography or something like
that that you might site as a hardship. We could say that the pre-existing history of decades long, the 40 years for the house in the back and um a little actually 40 for the pole pole building and we think the farm workers
house was was pretty much the same time and then uh five years less for the for the uh rear building, but they've been there for decades. And we we can sometimes will call that like a hardship, the fact that you got this pre-existing non-conforming condition. >> Okay. hardship.
>> Okay. So, I'm not going to push on the hardship issue, but it it is a factor that you can consider the fact that for decades this has existed without anybody complaining and uh with no apparent negative impact. So, that's the other thing we have to get.
>> I'll dispute that as well. >> We have complaints on the property. >> Uh there were some complaints back when uh there were too many trucks or farm uh you know equipment and things being stored there for a while. >> Illegal businesses, illegal occupancy. Those are the things that the reason why code enforcement went out there in the
first place and all this was discovered. >> That was um after it was sold. >> Yes. >> So obviously the the new owner is trying to make things right and inherited some situations and people living there with equipment and stuff that was not approved and not appropriate for a
residential zone. So, um, >> basically, he's not proposing any commercial equipment other than what would typically be allowed for a residential, like a guy in a plumbing truck coming home from work or something like that.
>> So, I guess I I'm going to just talk about the site suitability. And I think the key here is in an A2 zone. It's a it's a twoacre zone. >> A r a >> I'm sorry. >> I had two written here.
>> It is too. >> Say it. >> Let me just see. I have the zoning chart up. >> You're right. >> It's too right. >> It's a twoacre zone. essentially you theoretically somebody with a 5acre property could subdivide the property
and build two single family houses on two and a half acre lots. Okay. So what the the physical um result of what's proposed is not really that different from what would be allowed in the zone and is currently allowed in the zone. So
there's no over intensification or negative uh impact in terms of forcing too many people onto a single family property uh except the fact that it's still one one lot, but it's actually larger than you would need to put two single family houses on there.
Um and that's that's an accepted uh premise for site suitability. The other thing that I mentioned was u the proximity of this unit to the farm itself for the worker and you can see it was a functioning busy farm that
required daily activity almost year round. Um, and then that the fact that other farms in the area also make use of that person's skills and equipment and he serves those other farms and wants to be close to them so that he can get out
early, come home late and not have to commute um an hour back and forth each day. Uh, but be able to be on on hand when something comes up to be able to quickly go and service the other farms or take care of something on this farm. Is there is there going to be a limitation that it's only going to be
rented to farm like workers >> or is that I mean that's not in the record but >> I mean that's your argument but like what can he rent it to anybody I agree >> I think in the application >> as presented he could rent it to like me as a lawyer who wants to rent a an apartment right or anybody
>> it it is um I agree with you it's a market rate uh rental unit that's being applied for >> okay >> but it's it's extremely small it's it's in a utility building. It's It's really more oriented to like someone like that. Most people wouldn't like I don't think
you'd want to live in that that place. It's it's very >> um you know the the use on the property that's proposed with the two with the small unit is is uh along with the main residence uh is not um out of keeping
with the rural context that's described in the master plan and um the sought after overall fabric of the neighborhood and the area. It's it's consistent with everything that you see in this in these photos of the surrounding lots which you can see on the left with the white
outlines. Um, sorry, let me just see here the AR. Okay, so I talked about the consistency, the fact that the yards are quite large and wellkept. I wanted to mention that too that the lawns are kept to where you
can see where that line is that you were talking about uh right at the edges and it would be pretty obvious where to put that fence. I created another exhibit um which was actually I think maybe the third sheet if you could scroll down.
Um yeah, that one I want I just wanted to show you on that one if you could go a little bit more to the right. Um, you can see the two buildings, but then I I hatched what somebody could build and
still comply with the coverage requirements. So those two rectangles could still be added, let's say, as big accessory buildings and without any variances. Um, just to show that the site is really uh very underutilized as far as building
coverage. It's only at 1.9% now where it's allowed to go up to 12%. So that's that's what that was supposed to show. I had a lot more in my letter which was attached to the application about affordability. I'm not going to really
go into that too much, but it is even though it's um it is a special reason, we're not going to totally rely on that here at this time. We just have >> I mean, I have to jump in. There are so many restrictions on making that unit
affordable to the point where your applicant would have no ability to dictate who could occupy that structure. It would have to be affirmatively marketed in the region. It would have to go uh against a lottery list of people that are already on list
for affordable units within the township. And I just want to say for the record, the town has complied with its round four obligation. So this is not an affordable unit and there's nothing in the application that's limiting that. So, I would move on and find another
special reason because this is not affordable in terms of big A satisfying the town's low and moderate income obligation under the Fair Housing Act. >> Right. That's that's I agree with you and I I'm not trying to push on that issue. I just wanted to mention it was in the letter and I'm I didn't want it
to become a focal point. Um, so as far as uh you have the the hardship, you have the well the pre-existing non-conforming condition lasting for decades and we have the size of the lot being suitable
for two units um two two residences. We can also look at the D2 purposes, the the um the paragraph where we talk about the purposes of the municipal land use law. And you you hear that more maybe with
bulk variances, but they are applicable in use variances also. And I feel that we pro we we fulfill several of those purposes. I'm not going to go way into them, but basically we're providing a needed um residence in the area uh which
is consistent with the zone intent. Um it's going to be code compliant. Um we're improving safety somewhat by having the ability for the uh resident to work locally at the farms. Even though I agree it's not restricted to a
farm worker, but for all practical purposes, that is what's happening. We're we're improving safety and the environment by cutting down his commute. Uh it improves light and air. The fact that we we have we are not expanding these buildings. We're keeping a lot of u light and air and yard between the two
buildings and and from the buildings to the sidelines and um you know talks about density the uh residential and then purpose I is the one that's usually really key on these
uh C2 or D2 type proofs. >> D1 D1 >> it's a D1 variance. Um but it's a second u paragraph that has to do with the purposes of the municipal land use law and and purpose I talks about u improvements to the street frontage or
the design effect and the fact that this uh will be an improvement to the neighborhood and the street frontage and I think we've already heard testimony that uh it has been cleaned up already and will be continuing to clean up with
a new sign and all the uh invasive species and different uh weeds and things that have taken over in that front property, the front yard area to make it a more attractive uh front. >> Mr. you would uh uh agree that uh keeping uh
farmland and open areas like this property in its current condition is a benefit to the town and it's a good thing keeping it the way it is rather than having it more developed. Correct. >> Yes. It's it's going to help enhance the
potential of keeping the agricultural >> So you're saying yes >> the agriculture Yes. the agricultural >> uh character of the property. >> You heard the applicant testify about how he needs to have the farm hand living there to take care and maintain the property so he can keep it in that
present state. >> Yes. >> Although so having this apartment for him, it would be a benefit not only for the person living there but but for the whole town too because he keeps the maintain. >> Exactly. Would that be a benefit to the whole town? I would love to know that
>> they can benefit to this property owner and to the farm, but how would someone that lives down on Lakes Mill Road benefit from this? >> Well, it would prevent the the having to subdivide the property and build more houses uh and keep one more farm in
existence even though it's not big enough to be farm assessed. >> I think his main point the rural nature of the neighborhood the same rural that it is I think that that we've gotten a little far a field in the planning testimony. Yeah.
>> Number one, what goal of zoning are you advancing? And I I take exception to using promote a desirable visual environment because cleaning up the site could be done if it was a single family house. So the second structure, what goal of zoning would that second
apartment advance? >> Okay. Well, uh I think I think that the goal of zoning in the AR22 zone is to preserve the rural character, the agricultural fabric of Howell Township. >> No, goal of zoning is section two of the
MLO. There's listed goals of zoning that are required to be provided as special reasons for D1 variance. Which one of those goals under section two of the MLU are you advancing? >> Right. Well, I I I know you the the I
have them written here, the letters A through uh P and I mentioned a few that I feel are being satisfied, you know, goals A um C and I I realize that those
are probably written more for larger projects or planning projects in the town, but usually the the ones that you focus on for those those purposes is is is purpose number I which has to do with the street frontage and the improvement
>> even purpose I is promoting a desirable visual environment and you cleaning up the street from it is required to be done whether it's a single family house or the apartment is there or not you're here for use to allow an apartment to be
put or kept on this property the goal of zoning that you're advancing has to be related to that I also don't think you're promoting airline open space because the structures are there. You're not promoting anything. So, I would suggest perhaps we take five minutes,
give him a minute to take a look at what those goals are and then to come back. >> I was just going to ask that >> to the legalization of this apartment. That's what the application. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It's just the apartment and so the goal
of zoning has to be advanced by the continuation of that use. >> Okay, >> I concur. And um it's almost 8:30, so let's take a minute. >> Yes. >> Do we need a motion?
>> Yes. No. Make a motion to uh reset. No, we don't need motion. Take a five minute break. >> Yeah, we're going to take a fiveminut break. Okay. Okay, Mr. Kaplan. >> Yes. I'm gonna ask the board to carry this to the next meeting in July. I think it's the 13th.
>> It would be the 13th. >> Yes. If we could and we can have more on the planning aspect for uh to satisfy that uh >> yes >> major the the main issue of the thing. But before we do that, I have Mr. Rogan
here tonight and I want to make sure that he doesn't have to come back. Is there any other questions the board or >> does anybody have any further questions >> on other things? >> Um, real quick, the the square footage of the apartment that's inside the pole
building, what's the square footage of that apartment? >> You scroll down to the uh >> next couple sheets. >> While he's looking that up, I'll go through the other quick questions. How many bedrooms? How many bathrooms in that apartment?
>> It's basically it's it's um it was designed as kind of like a a dorm up top studio >> with six sleeping areas within a very small like second >> level mezzanine almost. >> No, no, that's not >> Hold on. I mean, there's
>> it's a onebedroom. When I tell you one bedroom, you ain't putting two people in there. So, >> one bathroom downstairs with the inside the outside the kitchen area. >> So, it's it's on two floors, >> correct?
>> Okay. So, one bedroom, one bathroom, two floors, >> correct? >> Okay. >> The bedroom's upstairs by itself. The kitchen and the bathroom are downstairs. >> Got it. Okay. So, just >> Yeah. And to give the board context, so scaling it on the plans, the first story
including uh washer, dryer, and mechanicals is about 41200 413 ft. And then the second story is about 458 square ft. So in total, it's around 870 ft.
>> And there's there's no uh washer or dryer or anything like that. And this place is just wouldn't be sufficient room or probably >> well those those rooms are entered from the utility side. Uh, if you see the upper right corner there, those two rooms are what he's talking about, mechanical,
>> but they're actually the plans show a washer and a dryer. So, you guys might want to look at your plans, too. >> No, I know, but I'm saying they're they're not entered from the apartment. You have to go out into the utility building. It it's used for both uh the utility people as well as the resident.
>> Wait, let's clarify this. >> Where's the washer and dryer? >> The washer and dryer are in the pole barn, >> which is the main house. >> No, no. the small house, >> right? >> Okay. >> The washer and dryer in the pole barn in a separate cordoff area where there's a
sink and you know bathroom. >> So, >> I have both both plans, the lower and the upper level on the document. So, if you just you should be able to scroll and see both. To the right side is the rear building, the left side is the pole building, but there's another sheet that
shows the other floors. Yeah, >> those are the only questions that I had for Mr. >> And you can see the door to the uh to the there's like actually a toilet laundry for the utility building on the right there where you're pointing >> washer and dryer.
>> Yes. But but that's entered from the utility building, not from the apartment. >> So the apartment doesn't use that. They >> they can still use it, but it's um it's it's actually part of a little toilet room for the utility building. And the main fourbedroom ding has its own laundry room with a washer and dryer.
Correct. >> I believe. Yes. Yes, it does. >> Yeah. So, it services that also like but it's 870 feet for both, you know. >> Okay. Any further questions >> as a witness? >> Okay. >> Rich, did you want were you opening to
the public? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, we're going to wait till the 13th. >> You're not opening to the public? >> Not tonight. Not tonight. I'll make a video when I get home. It's okay. >> Thank you very much. >> Yeah, hold on.
>> There are some board members that would um and our attorney would like to at least allow uh the public to come up. But I just ask everybody just please come up and uh because we're going to hear this case again in three weeks and you'll have an
opportunity to come back. So at this time I'll have a motion open to the public. >> Second motion. >> All in favor? >> I Okay. >> All right. Chairman chairman has opened the hearing for members of the public to ask questions or comment on this
application. If you would like to speak, please come up to the podium. You will need to provide your name and address and you will be sworn in. >> Joe Bazonos, 150 Colts Neck Road. >> You swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> Every time. I had no intention of coming
up and speaking tonight. I'm here for a completely different >> Yeah. >> All right. This case is the exact reason why I got involved and why you've seen my face and why you're going to keep seeing my face. This is a family man that he wanted to have a little compound
for himself for his daughter to have some horses. He inherited someone else's BS and the hammer that I saw dropped on him tonight. It makes me sick. It makes me sick that this this is an hour and a half for this. What What is he doing? He
could someone Is that picture still available of his of the property? Is that still available to be pulled up, please? Yeah, that's a that's a grove. How is him doing anything there negatively impacting the community? It's
been there cuz some some police officer probably had a buddy in the township in the '90s and got his stuff uh put through. This guy's got to suffer. He's got a daughter and a wife sitting back there getting upset. This is nonsense. And I actually I applaud some of our professionals for giving their opinion
without giving their opinion. You guys make really good decisions. I've seen you make really good decisions. But think about this as well. What message are we sending to the hundreds of people that are fleeing Howell every year, every month? The people that are discouraged, the people
that I talk to every single day. Every single day I talk to people that are discouraged that want to leave because they're watching stuff get put through that's nonsense. We're watching stuff pop up overnight because people know how to play by the rules and they know how to find loopholes. This guy's before you
trying to do the right thing for his family. Who's he hurting? Please, I want you to think about that in the coming weeks before you lead lead up to the next meeting. Who's he hurting in that oasis, that grove, having a a little apartment for a helper? Big deal. You're
you're here. You're here as a zoning board because you have discretion and you're supposed to step back and look at everything and then make a decision. Why is this a hard decision? Let's look at some of our culde-sacs that have people here every other Tuesday complaining
about nonsense projects that are put up because of loopholes. This guy's here before you trying to do the right thing and I think you know it's the right thing. Thank you very much. >> Anybody else? >> What is it getting to >> the 13th?
>> July 13th. Betty Vez Gimble, 97 Victory Road. >> Sworn to ending. >> Oh, sorry. You swear the testimony give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> Yes, I do. >> Good evening, everyone. Thank you for uh
your service. Of course. Um I do want to commend um Bernie for doing the right thing. Um it seems that uh the the moment that he realized something was not right uh the people were vacated
from the premises. Is that right? >> Right. >> Am I right? >> Okay. Um and as I said just doing the right thing all around this um it seems like and no to no offense at
all. Um I'm a farm girl so uh as far as the whole barn is concerned uh you know we are those who have farms are um used to having uh washers and dryers and things in these pole barns for their
animals, blankets and things like that. Um it doesn't seem that these quarters are really um an actual apartment. Is this an actual apartment? >> It's not an apartment that >> probably >> it's more like a bunking room or whatnot. >> It's it's made for
>> for the caretaker of the farm. >> Okay. >> It's actually nicer than >> Okay. And I know that right now it's not considered a farm because it lost its farm assessment. But we do know that if it make, you know, if the farm is able to produce 50,000 or more in agriculture production, then it will qualify as a
commercial farm. But however, we won't get to know that uh whether or not there's a potential there. Um, my concern is that I know that this gentleman is a businessman and if this potential farm doesn't have what it
needs in the future as far as a a caretaker right now, as he's expressed, um, we won't know the potential of this property as becoming a farm. um it will more than likely, as many business owners do, um be subdivided and sold uh
for two single family dwellings. That is my concern. Uh and we definitely are as a whole in uh for this town wanting to preserve the rural character of Howell at any point that we can.
And I sure um I'm glad that you had had a farm caretaker because I know how much work it is. Uh and at some point I hope to have one as well. Um but um I just want to make sure I look at my little notes here. Um I I I'm just floored by
the hardship uh that you've had to endure and uh and I didn't know it was an AR2 zone. Uh I thought it was an AR3 zone. Uh so that that that concerns me a lot. Thank you so much. >> Okay, buddy. Thank you.
Anybody else? >> You swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> State your name for the record. Spell your last. >> Uh Dan Carbonic, Six Kingsport. uh K A R B O W N I K. Um so I had this whole speech written
out, but I mean a lot of what I was going to say was kind of said already. Um for what it's worth, I've actually been to the property. Um when this happened to Bernie, he called me for some advice. Um I am, you know, a local realtor. I'm also on the planning board and and also a landlord in town. So I
had some knowledge and he knew that. So, he called me and I went over there and um tried to figure out like as much as I could about it and give him the best advice I could and let him know the first time I talked to him like you might find yourself in front of the zoning board for variance because it seemed like it was a second uh unit um
with no, you know, permitted use for that in the zone. Um I appreciate all the questions here tonight and I realize like it's a pretty confusing property. Um it seems confusing because it is confusing. I think at the end of the day, um, there was a lot of confusion
about it in the beginning, but, um, you know, you have to believe, I guess, that somebody built a house there without permits, which seems wild, right? Like, seems nuts, but it seems like that's what happened. Um, and it was also farm assessed at some point, but you need
five acres of continuous land to be farming. And we have testimony, we know that those structures were there at least as far back as 1995. and it should never have been pharmacist after that, I guess. So, um there's a lot of just weirdness with the property.
Um ultimately, and and I think what it comes down to, like like Betty just said, um and maybe Joe before him as well, is like Bernie is ultimately trying to do the right thing. That's why he's here. um you know, he's um he's a longtime H resident, a local business
owner, upstanding member of the community who's trying to seek even deeper roots in the community by potentially having this property for his daughter to use. Um and I think that's the kind of people that we want in Howell. The people that are invested in How for the long term. Um he's not
somebody that came along and did something, you know, bought it last year, did something without approvals, and is trying to ask for forgiveness after the fact instead of permission upfront. um these structures clearly been there for like 40 years um at least and he's just trying to legitimize it
now and actually do the right thing. Uh which I think is commendable and I think um you know for whatever discretion you guys have as a zoning board to vote on these things. I think this is the type of applicant who you want to look favorably on in in these sorts of
situations. Um, you know, I also was going to say like I don't want to stand here and make technical arguments for the approval of the variance. He's got his professionals for that. But as someone who was at the property, um, I do think it lays out like very very nicely to have this sort
of use the way it's laid out that um, I guess if we're looking at that in like up is north and down is south. Um, I don't know the exact orientation, but that rental unit is on like the southern part of the pole barn. Um, and the deck is off the back in such a way if you're
hanging out there, like you can't even see the single family home. Um, it's very separated in such a way that it makes a lot of sense to actually have two rental units there. Um, they don't really, you know, conflict with each other, I would say. So, I think it and it's super private. I mean, the gravel
driveway is what, like 150 ft or something off the road, and it's so covered with trees, you could drive by that property and never know any of it was there anyway. Um, so it it actually does I think like kind of lay out pretty nice and I know there was discussion about like the benefit to the community
and things like that. I mean I think we all know like housing is just kind of nuts these days and it's really hard to find something affordable um for a that I would consider like a one-bedroom or even efficiency rental apartment. I mean, at a market rate, you
know, maybe it's like 2,000 a month or under, like there's very few places in how you could rent for 2,000 a month or under. So, even if it's not the farmand use and it's a market rate, which I think is actually the argument in the application, I think that we're kind of putting the farm thing aside, um, to
have a one-bedroom rental unit in Howell that somebody could again grow roots in the community and maybe buy a house later. to be able to get in for under 2,000 is a nice benefit to the community. I would say at least to that person who'd be renting it. Um I guess the last thing I would say is there are
I I know Jen might not like me saying this um based on her previous a comment she made earlier, but um there are other um multistructure rental units in the AR2 zone. I don't know how they got there. I don't know the history of of
how they got there. Um, but I know for a fact it's won a few lots down. I think at 438 Brickyard it might be. Um, it's registered as a rental 438 438 438A 438B. And if you can see it on Google Street View, there's literally two separate structures on the property and
that property is actually less than an acre whereas this is 5 acres. Those properties are much closer to the road and there's three mailboxes out front. So I actually think there might be a third unit but maybe that's a primary. I don't know. Um, so I don't think it would actually even be necessar I I I I can't say it wouldn't be setting a precedent because I don't know how those
properties came to be, but there are other similar things like this in the AR2 zone. Um, that was pretty much it. So bottom line, I think um, you know, just to summarize, I think he's trying to do the right thing here. Um, I don't think it's outlandish to have these uses
um, on this property. Um, and that's about it. All right. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> My name is Jimmy Harmick. I live at 429 Brickyard next door.
>> Hi. Do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Sure. Yes. >> My only concern is uh the wetlands. Um, when I went to apply for my barn,
um, they wouldn't accept the GIS, maybe get a LOI, um, with 150 foot, uh, barrier, that's that's my main concern. >> Okay, >> that's it.
>> Thank you. >> Anybody else? Motion to close the public. >> Motion by Mr. Caner, second. Second by Mr. Kabarakas. All in favor? >> I. >> Okay. >> Okay. Mr. Kaplan, I guess what this
point, we'll pick up on the 13th. We will have you the first applicant for that night. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. So, >> back on >> Rich. So, for those here who this is carried to July 13th. No further notice.
No further notice. >> What's the date? >> And the expiration already is August 18th, so we're good. >> August 18th. >> Okay. So, we don't have to worry about that. But no further notice will be given. So, if you want to come back, we'll be here on the 13th. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. Good night. >> Good night.
>> Bless you. >> Excuse me. Thank you. >> Okay. This time we'll go to our next application. Case number BA26-08. A A S THW Property LLC
seeking a use variance and preliminary and final site plan with Arcuary Variance Relief. application A HW Property LLC is applicant and Chestnut Fairfield Holdings LLC is
owners seeking approval to change the use of a previous approved warehouse to a manufacturer of plastic bottles and containers and increase the office space from 10,000 square ft to 12,000 I believe that would be 12,000 square ft
and add silos in the area previous previously approved for loading docks on premise known as block 168 lot 1718 18 19.02 19.04 and 19.08
308 and 413 Fairfield Road with an expiration September 24th 2026 good evening Mr. Chair, members of the board, Salvator Alfuri on behalf of the applicant, as the board chairman indicated, this propertyy's on Fairfield Road. It was approved by the planning
board in 2023 for the same size warehouse. Um my the the current owners of the contract purchasers applicant of um started doing some of the site improvement work. They did not start construction of the building. They were
close to full resolution compliance. And then this user who's about to testify came along and we feel it's a much better use for the community and for the property, less impact. And therefore, we shifted gears and we now wanted to go forward with this occupant who would
occupy the entire building as opposed to what was previously potentially two ten two unknown users. Um, we have several witnesses we're going to call directly and then we have many other witnesses who will be here to answer questions in case the board or members of the public have questions. We've received all the
professional reports, inter office reports, etc. We'll be prepared to address all of those comments. Um during our testimony, we're going to start with Russ Smith, who is a principal of the um potential applicant. >> Okay. Do you want to get everybody sworn
in first or do you want to just go and get tested? >> Whatever works for you. >> Let's get everybody sworn in and then that way it's on record. We don't intend to be calling all of them, but just in case. >> You're scaring me, S. >> I know. We're not going to call. >> It's because they long enough tell everyone's name. Do you swear the
testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth? Nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Okay. Say your name for the record. >> Ros Smith. >> Okay. >> Kristen Shepard. >> Okay. >> Jeremy Langario. >> Frederick Petridge. >> Can you say that again when spelled
>> Frederick? Okay. And >> to lab. >> Okay. >> Professionals are sworn >> and we're gonna we're gonna start with Mr. Smith. >> Okay. >> Um first um identify yourself what your
relationship is to um to the potential user FlexCraft. >> All right. Hi everyone. Uh thank you very much for the opportunity to speak tonight. My name is Russ Smith. I am one of four brother brothers who own and operate Flexcraft and I am here tonight
as the prospective owner and occupant of the proposed property. Uh three of the four of us are here in the audience tonight as well. Um I've prepared a brief statement to give you an overview of our company and our operations and then I look forward to answering any
questions that you may have. Um Flexcraft is our family business. It was founded by our father in the 1970s. My brothers and I have owned and operated the business for the past 15 years. Uh we're born and raised in New
Jersey and we are very committed to continuing to grow and invest in New Jersey for many years to come. U our company manufactures plastic bottles, containers, and closures for the medical, neutrautical, food, and beverage industries. They're industries
with very high standards for quality, cleanliness, and safety. And as a result, we run a very clean, controlled operation with high standards inside and outside of the building. We employ approximately 140 people right now, and many of those people have been with us
for decades. And, you know, we continue the um we we intend to continue that tradition of long-term employment uh here in Howell. We want this to be a very beautiful site that meets and exceeds the standards
expected by our customers, our employees, and the township. U briefly, I'll explain kind of what our business does inside the building so you can get a clear understanding of that. As some people have brought up, you know, small plastic pellets get delivered to our
site. These plastic pellets are called resin. uh they get delivered to our site in bulk trucks and then stored in the outdoor silos that you see on the site plan. It's a very clean, safe way to store those materials. Um the material is then conveyed from those silos
directly into our building and into our machines that melt the plastic and form those pellets into various different bottles, containers, and closures which are essentially caps.
Um, we do this through two processes, blow molding and injection molding. They're not chemical processes. We're not, you know, burning anything or emitting any chemicals or anything of the sort. We are not manufacturing plastics. We're simply taking plastic
pellets that are already made and simply heating them up and changing the physical properties into bottles and the other components that I that I just discussed. All of our equipment is state-of-the-art and we use what's called um closed loop
systems. So any scrap materials that are generated from our process we reuse in in the production line so that the scrap gets kind of regground and reused and turned into the bottle. So there's very very little waste.
There's no detectable odor associated with our facility, which might come to a surprise to people. Uh we can say that firsthand though because our current facility is surrounded by residential. We've been there since 2015 and we have
never had an odor complaint. Um other than the resin silos and some cooling equipment that are on the site plan, all of our manufacturing equipment is located inside of our building. Excuse me. So that really contains the
noise and it also really contains any production uh activity associated with the proposed facility. Our production runs 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Uh but the schedule is less kind of disruptive than that
phrase might suggest. approximately we have approximately 20 office and administrative employees that work normal kind of Monday through Friday schedules and then we have production personnel that work on in
four teams that rotate 12-hour shifts. So at any given point in time Monday through Friday is where there will be the maximum amount of people in the building. Right now it's 20, but if there are 140 employees, 120 production, that's 20 office staff Monday through
Friday, plus one team of 30 employees in the building at any given time. So we have an exhibit that'll kind of outline that in a little bit more detail, but I just wanted to give an understanding so people understand it's not 140 people at any one point in time that are going to
be in the building. It's a lot less than that because of the nature of the the shift work. Uh we selected this location because it's very well suited for our type of operation. You know, from the property line of this facility, there's no
outdoor production. There's no detectable odor, and there's no activity outside of the building other than normal shipping and receiving. Um, you know, we bring stable manufacturing jobs to the town, significant long-term investment, and we're committed to
maintaining a very, you know, beautiful property that meets the high expectations of customers, employees, and the town. And, you know, we look forward to being here for for a long time if you guys will have us. Um, we're very proud of the business we have built
and we're excited about the opportunity to continue to grow here in Howell. Um, thank you very much for your time and consideration and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. >> Just have a couple quick follow-ups and then obviously we'll open you up to questions. First is um we're proposing
and the engineer will get into a little more detail. We're going to have 86 parking stalls on site now in the most recent uh plan configuration. You're comfortable that that's adequate for your use whether it's current use or proposed growth? >> Yeah, that's significantly more than we
need. So you you don't anticipate having more than 50 or 60 people on site at any one time >> right now? Absolutely not. Short-term growth growth definitely not as well. >> And then in terms of visitors, will there be active visitors that might use
some of the excess parking spaces? Uh like how frequently do you get visitors and what type of volume? >> Yeah, we definitely do get some visitors. It's normally, you know, a customer maybe once every two weeks. That's, you know, that would be a lot.
Um, sometimes we have suppliers or different people coming to visit and see the facility as well, but it's ne never more than another, call it two to five people per week. >> So, you're comfortable with the parking? >> Very comfortable. >> What about spill control? I know there was some concern. I saw the
environmental commission's report about potential spill control of some of the pellets that might escape the process. Can you discuss that? >> Yeah, so we take that very seriously. Um, the way the trucks connect to our property, the trucks hook up to hoses
that then go into the silos. Under those hoses, we have catch basins to kind of cap capture anything that could potentially spray out of the hose. So, that's all kind of taken care of. Um,
pellet loss is also just something that's very common in the industry. We are actively working to join um something called Operation Clean Sweep. Operation Clean Sweep is an industry initiative that has tons of training um
self-reporting um different rules and regulations that you have to abide by in order to get to zero pellet loss. Um, so that's kind of what we're striving for and you know, we take it very seriously as not only the
operators but the the land owners as well. We do not want to have any any issues with that. And I know a subsequent witness is going to discuss this, but there are NJD permitting requirements for some of your equipment
and potentially the use >> for some of the equipment is most of it is, you know, there is nothing required because they're so, you know, they're not invasive. They don't give off chemicals or anything like that. Um, everything that is required. We abide by all the rules, all the regulations.
Anything that needs to be registered is we work with the NJ on that and we have a schedule. We're well well well below any sort of limits that they impose. >> So we have >> uh hours of operation.
>> So 24 we run 247 >> 24 hours. Is there a reason >> just production? These are you know it's it's expensive to start and stop machines. There are certain products that we run on one machine and the volume of those products, it's just full
capacity. So there's not really time to shut down. So it's just a very it's a an efficient way to operate. >> So basically any it would just be the employees coming in and out. >> Yes. Yeah. We we primarily ship Monday through Friday 7 to 7
>> and deliveries >> during the same hours. >> Okay. That's all I have. Uh Charlie, Jen. >> Yes. So, as far as the raw materials actually come to that site, so it's it's
all recycled pellets, right? It's nothing's raw like liquid chemicals and you're not manufacturing the plastics on the site. You're taking recycled pellets and then making those into plastic products. Correct. >> They're not all recycled, but that is correct to say they are all plastic
pellets that are already converted in made into plastic. So some third party is making the plastic pellets offsite and they're just getting shipped to the site and then you're either heat or injecting molding them inside the facility into plastic products. >> Exactly. >> Okay. And then so the transfer operation
they come in like a tanker truck and then it's how is that connected to the silos and how is that transferred? >> So they come in on pneumatic trucks. Um there's a it's all gravity conveyed down to the bottom of the trucks and then there's a hose that goes from the bottom
right into a hose um that connects to the silo and gravity just feeds it into the silo and then under it we have catch basins in case there is any potential runoff that we will then just capture but it's very rare. So those catch basins you talk about, are those
separate from the storm conveyance catch basins that tie into the stormwater system for the site or is there going to be a separate catch basin isolated to the silos just to capture if there is an event where you know under normal operating procedures the pipe burst or the cam lock comes loose or something
like that. >> It's two separate things. >> Okay. And your engineer >> the engineer will address that but there two different precautions that we have in place. >> Okay. And then the environmental and sales might be a question for you. They made a recommendation about a separate uh like spill and prevention plan being
a condition of the approval. You know, similar to like how there would be a stormwater operation and maintenance manual where if there is an event, you know, it would be reported to so and so and here's what the steps would be to make sure I think the concern is right plastics they're probably still floatable if they get into a storm
system like you know we don't want this flowing downstream into some neighboring property or into downstream water courses. Is that something the applicant's amendable to? S >> I believe so. Yes. But um our next witness will comment. I'm pretty sure. Yes. >> All right. Um >> I'm sorry. >> How big are the pellets?
>> They're I don't know how to quantify them. They're they're small >> dime. >> They're smaller than a dime. >> Like a piece like the little nubs you find on astroturf. >> Yes. >> Okay. That's that's a good
>> that's Yeah, that's a good good representation. >> All right. And then I think the environmental commission also had questions about so there's nine silos and then there's also two transformers outside the building and then there's three cooling
um type of equipment. How does that work? And it's on a closed closed loop. How does that whole process work? >> I am not an expert on that but I can speak to it briefly. The the the equipment outside are chillers and the chillers are simply they cool processed
water. The water doesn't touch any of our material or anything. It just runs through pipes, you know, cold water that then runs through the molds so that it can give the proper temperatures in the molds to properly shape the wall thickness of the bottles. >> Okay. So, the water that's used in that
system, is it come from the portable water from the public right away? Do you have a private well that you're proposing to supplement that? I know that the environmental response environmental commission talks about how it's a closed loop and recirculate the water and everything like that, but I
imagine at some point you might have to add new water to the system or something like that. So, where does that water come from? And then where is it disposed of? >> Yeah, Jeremy, >> our next >> Jeremy's going to talk about that. Okay. >> We have an engineer who's going to talk to that.
>> Okay. Um as far as so there's you're when we'll talk to the site engineer apparent there's 84 parking spaces now. So um you've got 20 who are working office and admin that are there from 8:00 to 5:00
p.m. Monday to Friday and then you have the four continuous shifts that just continue to rotate and that's 30 maximum employees per shift. So shifts start at 7 a.m. and end at 7 p.m. and then the next shift starts thereafter. So there is some period where you're going to
have 60 employees on the site parking on that changeover. Right. >> Correct. Yeah. >> So and that's with those 20 office admin that's 80 and we're going to have 86 parking spaces. Correct. >> Correct. >> All right. Um as far as the the the
tractor trailer bays, so there is reduction, you know, down a couple spacers from what the planning board approved. How are those operations? So once you've made the bottles, like how many trucks are coming in and out of the day, you know, on a daily basis? Do they only happen during normal business
hours, 8:00 to 5:00 p.m.? Are they also 247? Give the board some context on that. >> So our outbound shipping is primarily 7 to 7 Monday through Friday. Um, there are some occasions of offhour shipping,
but that's, you know, the exception, not the rule. We're not a logistics facility that's just constantly bringing trucks in and out all day at all hours, you know. So, the bulk of our trucks and we ship right now about 15 trucks outbound per day. Um, as we grow, we expect to,
you know, over over the next year or two, depending upon how successful we are growing, we could see that expanding, you know, to call it 30 outbound trucks per day. Um, and then on the inbound, right now we're around
eight trucks of inbound material every week. So significantly less volume than you would see in your standard kind of warehouse 3PL logistics operation. >> It's not a one per one volume transfer material, right? You're coming from things with lot low void space and then
you're blowing them into larger containerized volumes. >> Yeah, we ship a lot of air. >> Okay. Um, as far as the 30 outbound per day, is that just general over the 12 hours on a normal day, just it's dispersed or is anything concentrated
like in the morning rush from 7:00 to 9:00 a.m. or just give some context on that? >> There is no rush. We have like we have a dock scheduler. We try and schedule them steadily out throughout the day so that it doesn't over overburden our shipping staff and then so it also doesn't, you
know, rub the the truckers the wrong way if they're sitting around waiting. Okay. So, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. So, you have 22
loading docks, and you're saying you're going to grow to about 30 outbound per day. So, there's going to be some limitation on the number of loading docks as far as how much is coming out. And then roughly like internal to the building. So, it's
22,000 plus or minus gross floor area. Like what's an approximate breakdown of like what's office, what's actual manufacturing, what's warehousing because you probably have to store some of that inventory before you can get it out. Correct. >> Correct. So, I don't have the exact
breakdown, but I can provide that for you. I believe we're proposing around 12,000 square foot of office. And then it really depends upon how we lay out the manufacturing machines to what constitutes manufacturing verse pure warehousing. But all the warehousing we
do is just, you know, bags and boxes, let's say, that we're packaging our products in. And then most of it is stage product that's either going right onto drop trailers that could be backed up to the loading docks. Um, and we try and obviously turn
that as quickly as we can. Um, but I would say I would probably say it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 >> to 50% manufacturing. >> I I think that's all I have for right now. I might have more questions follow
up, but that's all I have right now. >> You're good, Jen. >> Yeah. >> What attracted you to this site? Um, so it's very close to our current facility. We're currently located in
Neptune City, so it's a straight shot on 33. Um, >> is that going to stay open? You going to do both? >> I No, th this is we're planning to have this as our headquarters. >> So, this is going to be our main facility. This is where everyone is going to be working. Um, I mentioned
earlier that we have a lot of long-term employees. You know, we want to keep the employees that we have. So location is very important to us. We have a lot of employees that live in the area. You know, this is a very good location for everyone without having to go, you know,
to far north Jersey or, you know, somewhere else that doesn't make a sense, you know, as much sense. Everyone at our company are kind of members of Mammoth County in this community. And that was a very big driver for us. You know, it's also an approved site for a warehouse. So the
fact that you know with many manufacturing uses already approved on this site as well. So kind of all of those things together the fact that it is small frontage so we can have a very attractive looking building and do what
we need to do and not have to have you know re residents around us. You know it's another warehouse next to us. It's New Jersey natural gas building across the street, you know. So, it's we're able to kind of bring good jobs, what we like to think is a strong business
that's going to be around for a long time, and operate in an area that's going to have a warehouse and trucking environment anyway. And we feel we can bring a use to that site that will be more beneficial
to the town and allow us to continue to grow and and be efficient. Thank you. >> You apologize. Just two more follow-up questions. So, as far as uh refuse and storage, outdoor storage, anything like that. So, there's a commitment there will be no outdoor storage in any of the
parking areas or drive aisles because it is a pretty large site because of the tractor trailers and things that come into the site. So, no outdoor storage other than refu, normal office type of uh paper, cardboard, you know, normal waste in the refuge areas. Correct.
Yeah, that's correct. In in addition to the silos. So the silos are kind of outside of >> Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's a structure. So it would be storage and Yeah. >> Yeah. And then also like there will be, you know, the truck trailers backing up to the property.
Those are sometimes we have drop trailers there. So a truck might drop a trailer and we'll run product into the trailer. So it'll still be connected to the building fully enclosed and that's it. But then that moves very quickly as well. >> Okay. And then the second question that
I had and you're obviously aware that this had a planning board approval for a warehouse and I believe as part of that it was restricted that truck movements entering and exiting the site had to go to north on Fairfoot Road to Route 33. You're aware of that and that's going to be something the applicant you're amendable to as a condition of this
>> and our traffic engine will get up but yeah we're going to comply with all the conditions. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Any other board members? >> Yes. Um, speaking of the the pellets, um, and Charlie mentioned, um, recycled
pellets or what they call waste plastic pellets or or are they virgin pellets because there's a difference in the hazardous emittance pollutants between virgin pellets versus recycled pellets.
>> Yeah. So we take in both virgin and PCR or recycled pellets. Um so we do use both. They're the the potency or the you know they're not toxic. There are what's
more important versus like the virgin versus recycled is the is the type of material. So for example, PVC is a very, you know, it's been banned from California. We manufacture mostly with PET, the number, you know, if you look
on the bottom of a bottle, that's a number one recyclable. So that's the most environmentally friendly, easy to recycle, whether that is virgin or reg grind, and HDP, which is number two, kind of same thing. Very easy to recycle, very common. You know, there's
a lot of it if you just look around this room. Um, we actually, one of our products that's really helped us grow, we've actually been replacing a PVC bottle. And when I say replacing, we've never made the PVC
bottle, but we made a sustainable, environmentally friendly alternative to a PVC bottle that is doing very well in the marketplace because it is environmentally friendly. It is a number one recyclable and it's getting a lot of those PVC bottles off the shelf. So
that's a food and beverage product. It's also the handleware that you probably see with like ice melt and stuff in the in the winter with the little pellets in it. Um so yeah, it's not >> so so your >> do a combination of both virgin and
>> so your waste pellets are HPDE and PTE >> PT. Yes. >> HP and PET. So is that is that like a mixture of of virgin and and recycle? >> No. So >> or you >> if it's if it's recycled virgin is just
coming directly from the manufacturer of the plastic. So virgin means it hasn't been used or processed before, >> right? >> Um the reg grind, when I was talking about a closed loop system, when we generate any sort of scrap, we are then
taking that regrind or waste plastic and reusing it all into the same bottle. So it's the same material. We're never necessarily mixing different materials. Um, it's all virgin or regrind PET or virgin or reg grind HDP and those get
used to make the product. >> So, the admittance of pollutants are the same between the two of the two. >> Yeah. And I'd argue there's not an admittance of pollutions in the process >> at all. >> No, there's there's no odor. There's no waste. It's simply just heating up the
plastic that then gets kind of molded. But if you walk through our factory, you know, or outside the factory or anything, there's there's no odor. smoke or anything you'd see. There's no chemical reaction, >> no volatile organic compounds that happen during the process. >> No, there's not.
>> There's no possibility of it. >> So, it is >> like if you overburn like if >> if you over burn, it is possible that you can burn the plastic. >> So, what So, what happens at that point? How does that get captured or does it get >> there's we on our machines there are temperature controls that before it gets
to that point it'll shut the machine down. >> Nice. So there's a safety feature. >> There is. Yes. >> So it doesn't release into the atmosphere. >> Correct. Yes. >> Do we do we want to have the engineer maybe about talk about other possible
pollutants, water, soil? >> We'll have to come. >> Okay. All right. Uh that's all I have right now. >> Anybody else? >> I do. >> Yes. Um, so just based on um what I'm reading up on the company, whatever, you
guys have had no EPA, D violations, nothing like that kind of tie into what he's talking about. >> Correct. Yes. >> Okay. Awesome. Thank you. >> Have a few quick questions. Will any equipment be brought over from the other one any of the other facilities that you own or is everything going to be brand
new in this facility? So everything's going to be coming from the Neptune City facility to this facility and then we'll also be adding new equipment. Everything we have in that I shouldn't say everything, but a lot of that equipment is very new. Um we've been growing pretty rapidly. So a lot of the
equipment is new. We're right now getting into a lot of like all electric equipment. Those machines will be be coming here as well. So it is a transfer from Neptune City to here. >> Okay. Uh other question for you, Mr. Smith. What kind of mandatory
environmental inspections are you responsible or is this type of facility responsible for complying with on a regular basis? >> So, we're registered with the D. Um, we have an engineering staff that is, you know, working with them at all time
and they measure the different machines and what comes from the machines and there's like a rate of acceptability, all of which we're well under. And I think um they'll talk about that in more detail as well. >> Who will talk more about that? I'm sorry. The engineer.
>> Yeah, the engineer will come. >> The engineer. Okay. >> And we have other environmental professionals here, too. But okay. I think we could do it with the engineer. >> All right. That's all we have. Thank you. >> What size trucks? >> Outbound, inbound. >> The vast majority are 53footers.
>> So, you know, standard tractor trailer. stand to track the trailer >> for your for your inbound product for your pellets. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Um, the inbound pellets, they're they're smaller than that, but those are they're I don't really know how to explain them. They they kind of
look like the trucks that carry, you know, >> a tank of oil, >> like a tanky truck. >> Yeah, they're filled with pellets. >> And those we get about eight per week inbound. >> And your and your outbound ones are the are the 52 footers. >> Yes, correct. 52.
>> Okay. And that's fif outbound 15 trucks right now. And you estimate maybe up to 30 trucks in the future, >> correct? >> Outbound per day. Yes. >> And inbound is eight per week. >> Correct. >> So the site you operate in, Neptune,
you're currently operating there 247. >> Have you received any complaints regarding noise from neighbors regarding the activities and like is there a reason you're leaving there to come to how to like make it better? So, we've outgrown the building in Neptune City.
We're currently renting an offsite 45,000 foot warehouse in Titan Falls. So, the primary reason that we're moving is to streamline our operation and to just make the whole operation more efficient. We do have a very good
relationship with the people around us and that's being way closer to people, you know, surrounded our entire property is surrounded by residential. Where was the actual location? Neptune City. >> So, we're off of West Sylvania Avenue.
>> West. >> Right. Right near the school. >> It's across the street from the recycling center. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Yeah. We have, to your point about neighboring complaints. There is one neighbor exactly on the corner closest to our property. We have a good
relationship with him. He has my cell phone number, my brother's cell phone numbers, and he will call us in the rare instance when a truck is there when they shouldn't be and it's loud and we take it very seriously to, you know, we've called the police to try and get them off there and that's something we can't control.
>> Now, is that inbound or outbound trucks? >> It it's hard to say. You know, we don't we have one of our own trucks. Um, all of the other trucks coming in and out of the facility are directed either by our suppliers or our customers. Um,
but we have signs up everywhere. We know when we're booking appointments. Like everyone kind of knows the hours to come. Um, and again, that's a house that is, you know, you could throw a football to it from our loading dock. So, it's incredibly close and the complaints are
very, very rare. >> But this new site, you're going to have silos for all the material transfer into the facility, right? At the existing site, do you have a silo or anything? >> We do. We do. And that's right by his house. >> Okay. >> The silent or existing facilities inside of the building, but the sound and the
process of getting it in is still outside. >> Yeah. >> What like give us an idea of like what does that sound like in the transfer? Is it like >> it's like if you if you picture like some gumballs, if you had some gumballs in a cup or something and you shook it,
that's what it sounds like. >> Okay. But on this site, right? So you're at the furthest southwest corner of the building which abuts another warehouse which abotss a solar field. There is some residents nearby but you have a going to have a substantial building
between where those activities occur and where those neighboring residences are. Correct. All right. That's that's all I have for now. >> Okay. Well, getting back to one of your answers, you said there's a neighbor that occasionally calls. He has uh your
number, right? in Neptune City at your location. Do they have restrictions on the times and that's why he's calling you because you are out of the time frame that it's permitted or
>> Yeah. So we in Neptune City we don't ship at night and he knows that we do that to appease the neighbors. You know it's just general kind of truck traffic. Um so that is what that is in the instance when that happens that is why he calls. You know, it's not necessarily
that it's abnormally loud or anything. It's just that it is. So, >> okay. But technically, there are conditions on the time correct >> with deliveries. Okay. >> I just want to have that on record. >> Yeah. And I would just add like any other commercial business, if they're not compliant with the noise ordinance,
then they would be in a violation and then code enforcement would come out. Right. So, they'd have to modify their operating procedures if it caused an issue with the noise ordinance. >> Okay. I do have another question. I probably missed it and because I think Mike asked, "How often are the D
inspections?" >> They're not inspections. I think it's a filing, but I'm not entirely sure. >> So, nobody comes to inspect to make sure everything's running properly. >> They have. They did this year. >> What was that? >> They have come. Yes. And it's not like a regular thing though,
>> to my knowledge. >> So, D does not come out on a regular basis to inspect your facility. >> I don't believe so. Interesting. Okay. Thank you. >> Anybody else? Okay, >> Jeremy,
>> we'll get your engineer up. Get him qualifications. >> Thanks. Good evening. Jeremy Lang, director of development for active acquisitions. >> And we'll meet your qualifications on record.
>> Got to swear him in. >> He was sworn in. >> I didn't hear. >> Oh, yeah. You're right. Forgot about that. We beat you to it. >> Large crowd. >> So, Jeremy, you have two I guess two hats you're wearing. one is you're a employee or principal of the of active
and you're also an expert an engineer. >> Yeah. Yes, I am a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. Um but really my testimony this evening is more factual in nature to describe the um air permitting and so forth that is necessary.
>> So we're really offering him as a fact witness for tonight. >> Thank you. >> Sounds like it could be a crossover a little south depending. Well, you could you could He is a licensed professional engineer and your license is in good standing, correct? Just in case there's >> just in case. >> Okay. There's >> I'm sorry. It's Jeremy
>> Lang. L A N G E. >> Okay. We accept your call. >> Testimony is tonight is >> there's going to be some >> it's going to be a combination of operations probably might cross into some civil engine >> but it's not going to tie into planning or anything. >> No. And we have a civil engineer who's
going to talk about site details. Good. >> Okay. So, um, one thing and I'll just correct this real quick before I get into the rest of my testimony on the parking. So, the shift change times 7 to
7 are offset from the office times. So, the maximum parking is the 60 when you have the two 30 person shifts. Uh, switching, you know, you got 30 people coming in, 30 people going out. If they don't all come and go at the exact same time, you could have as many as 60 cars.
But those shift changes bracket. They're outside of the office folks coming in. So the office people aren't coming in until that the either, you know, the departing shift has departed or vice versa. So the office people depart before the incoming shift has arrived
because they're 8 to 5 versus 7 to 7. So that offset is done very intentionally so that it's a 60 person max and that's for a very brief period of time when the two shifts are changing over. So I just want to make that clear. So the actual like peak parking demand other than the occasional visitor you
heard Mr. Smith testify to that um is 60. We have 86 stalls. So there's a 26 stall surplus which can easily handle the visitors uh as you heard from the prior testimony. >> So this is a two shift operation. 7 to 7. >> Correct. Two shift operation. There's
four teams o of people, but only two per day. >> Okay. >> But the truck deliveries are 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. >> Primarily the truck truck truck deliveries are scheduled here to be 247 as well, but the vast majority of them
happen during the day. Um because that's, you know, they have a a like a logistics office. There's actually three different office spaces in the building and one of them is a logistics office. So they're controlling um you know the arrival and departure of trucks so that it happens in an organized you know
manner. They're not getting everybody showing up at once or you know and not having things ready to go. So that yeah majority happens during the day but they do have occasional sometimes a a customer will need more product on a more eent basis and they'll they'll ship it out or a guy's late
because he hit traffic and you know there's there is a reason for night traffic. you know, they're building brand new. This is build the suit for them to own. They want to be here long term. You know, they're already a very long-term uh fixture in Mammoth County. They intend to stay that way. You heard the prior testimony. They have a lot of
employees that have been with them for decades. That's why they're trying to stay within a radius of Neptune. That makes sense. And that's why, you know, this site really became ideal. Um, as we already had the approval for the warehouse, the building was exactly the size they were looking for. It just, you know, we had to do very little changing
really. the silos was the biggest change we made on on the whole project uh to accommodate them. Other than that, you know, it was pretty much uh good to go. So, uh you know, that's a big part of why they're choosing this location. >> All right. So, can you talk a bit a
little bit about the D permitting? >> So, the as you heard, there's no chemical reactions on the site. There's no combustion on the site. So, the air releases here are very dimminimous. So much so that this site is within all the
criteria for a general permit 016A, which is manufacturing and materials handling equipment. So there's an air permit that exists. It's like a general air permit statewide for specifically manufacturing materials handling equipment such as is what's here. And
then there's a series of conditions. There's a bunch of definitions and thresholds all which have to be met, a lot of prescriptive standards that have to be met to qualify for this general permit. So what they do is they have to register for this permit. In order to do that though they have to calculate for
every piece of equipment in the building every piece individually they have to take its maximum capacity. So in other words, how much product it can run through it as if it was full tail 24/7 365 and then they have to take the most highest emitting material that it
processes whatever you know plastic that that it can handle that it uses that has the most emissions and then run that for the full year 247 and then it comes up with a pollutant loading for that specific piece of equipment. Then they
have to aggregate for every piece of equipment. They have to add all that together. And they not only do that for the injection and blow molding equipment, but even some of the other stuff you might not think about, like they have the grinders, I think Mr. Smith mentioned, they have blenders, they have vacuum uh machines that move
the stuff around. Every piece of that equipment is also uh evaluated. And there's two main categories that apply to this use. One is VOCC's and the other is particulate matter. And in both cases, they're well under the threshold.
So in the case of uh VOCC's, they're at 11% of the threshold to become a major uh air permit. You know, that's where so the threshold is they're at 4% of the way uh excuse me, 11% of the way there. And then in particular matter, they're
only 4% of that threshold. So not only are they within the the general permit criteria, they're well under it. They also look at for individual chemicals. The EPA has a bunch of chemicals and New Jerseys adopt that uh by and large and
they evaluate uh for individual chemicals as well. Again, well under the threshold. So that's why they qualify for this general permit. So they they register for the permit and then every time they get a new piece of equipment or something changes, they have to get a new they have to register again for the
permit. So it is audited. Um, so the state can come in at any time. It's not a regular schedule, but they can come in at any time and audit the permit. And they do, even though it's not, uh, part of the DP in terms of specifically air quality, they do get regularly audited
as as Mr. Smith mentioned, a lot of their customers are either in medical or in food. So, you know, the safety, the cleanliness, all that is very important. So, they have a separate process, you know, that they have to adhere to. So there's a combination of good management
practices and that's kind of like the rules of the road like the speed limit stop sign and then there's a certification and that's the safe quality food certification and that is an internationally recognized standard and that third party auditor does come in uh annually and they inspect
everything you know soup to nuts in terms of the the quality the cleanliness you know are they meeting all the specifications u particularly for the food and medical grade uh stuff. So, like I said, this you'd be surprised when you're in a facility like this, and I've been I've done industrial work most
of my career, and you know, there's some industries that are pretty dirty. You come out, you got to wash your hands. This is not that kind of place. You can eat it off the floors in here. Uh, you know, it's that level of of cleanliness. And and I've had the the pleasure of working for multiple of these types of operations over the years, not just in
plastic, but in all kinds of different uh areas, and I'm always impressed how clean they can keep a manufacturing operation. So, it's not the, you know, like the like a car manufacturing plant or something you might have in your head or or some kind of iron, you know, smelting operation or something like
that that's like heavy industry. This is not that at all. You know, this is truly, you know, light manufacturing uh type use. And when you think about the chemicals, when they're talking about heating up this plastic, it's 350 degrees to 535 degrees. Your kitchen
oven can literally and often does right in the middle of that temperature range. You know, you're you're you're baking a cake. You're >> But it's not burning plastic. >> But you're not burning plastic here either. That's the key. You're not burning plastic because burning whole different thing. If there's combustion, the the chemicals released are entirely
different. That's why there are those safeties on that equipment to make sure that the temperatures, the internal temperatures of those machines do not exceed that. And the cooling system, the closed load cooling system, that's why those that water is filtered. So it is fully recycled. There was a question
earlier about that. So, in terms of uh makeup water, it's 255 gallons a day is the estimate for water that we'll need to either make up or backwash the system. And when I say backwash, this is non-cont water. So, this is things like
scale and stuff that's in the water, but that can build up in a system. Um, you know, you see this in your your shower, your bathtub, you get that scale on the wall. It's the same in any kind of a cooling system. So, they will backwash that out. It has a filter unit. Uh it's both like a coarse filter and then there's like a finer down then usually
like five microns uh filter to capture that stuff that is backwashed out over a period of time. It's like a slower you drip system. So it's not a big plug. >> I'm sorry. So it's backwashed but something what grab something grabs that backwash so it doesn't go into this. So
the filtration grabs >> Yeah. The filtration system grabs everything in the cool and because it's closed loop so the same water is going round and round. making loops through the system, but over time you'll get that scaling and things like that. So, they have to occasionally uh clean the filters that keep that water clean.
Those get backwashed, the filters, and that's where the 255galon comes, whether it's the towers or the cooling units themselves, those have to get backwashed. But it's the same as any large scale cool any um like you know the hospital's air conditioner or the frankly the the cooling towers on this
building um do the same exact thing. >> And that's just a closed system. ine never leaves the system. >> It never leaves the system except for the backwash and that's the 255 gallons per day. So that's the piece of it that would leave the system and comes back into the system. So they'll use this
will be public water. Active acquisitions has extended public water up Fairfield Road. We did that for the warehouse next door. We've already uh because we were getting ready to build our warehouse here. So we've already extended the water main up Fairfield. We've already run the water lateral in, the sanitary laterals in, the storm
laterals in. Both driveways are in. The road is widened. We're waiting on the utility company to finish moving the utility poles. You know, I might be retired by the time that happens, but uh we're we're painfully getting there. Uh anyway, >> about the utility pole that's in the middle of your >> Yeah, we were told mid July if there
aren't any more storms and then of course tonight there was a storm. So, I'm waiting for the next excuse. Uh it is extremely painful dealing with uh JCPNL in particular, but also Verizon. Um we are we are on them constantly to to get it done. >> Mr. Lang, that real quick that that
cooling water you were talking about that is strictly for cooling. Doesn't come in contact with resin by any means. Correct. >> Exactly. So what what happens in the cooling each of these machines, the molds have channels built to them kind of the same way your engine your like coolant your engine works, right?
It doesn't come in contact with the fuel and oil, you know, fuel and gas mixture right in your car. It just circulates through the metal part of your engine to cool it down. It's the same idea here. So, the radiator fluid never comes in contact with the gas. Same thing here. The cooling water never comes in contact
with the plastic. So, it's just cooling the metal that makes the mold. All these molds are metal, right? So, that water is just circulating within channels that are basically engineered or or cut into the molds themselves. circulates around, it cools it off, keeps that temperature
consistent so it doesn't overheat. Um, and make sure they get a high quality product because they have a very even temperature in the molds. >> Is there any possible way where the resin can mix with the cooling? >> I hate to use the word possible because there's, you know, anything's possible,
but um, in real life, no. You could, you know, just like >> like a mechanical breakdown, like >> wouldn't be a mechanical breakdown. like a mold would have to actually crack and break, but that would be like a catastrophic failure. It would be obvious, you know, like it it's just not working.
>> What happens during a catastrophic failure? Is there is is there a um like an automatic shutdown system? Does does something happen? >> Yeah, you would have a loss in the water pressure. You you there would be all kinds of indicators that this is wrong. I mean there's that's why there's 30 people
>> operations shut down if there's a catastrophic. Does operations just shut down automatically? >> Yes. AB. Absolutely. that anything any kind of overheat and that would be more the the more likely scenario or not likely but more plausible scenario would be some kind of overheat that and that's
all the automatic safeties are right there. I mean these are in you know metal they're not like just a tube they're actually in the mold itself. So the failure you can never say never but a failure like that would be really unusual um for something like that. An overheat
would be more of a typical kind of failure. Uh but again there there's full safeties on all that and and these aren't unattended. This is not a robotic plant. That's why there's 30 employees per shift. They're constantly monitoring all the temperatures, the water pressure. If it's hydraulic machine there, you know, the hydraulic oil
pressure, you know, they're watching all this stuff. There's quality control checks of the products coming out the back end. So you would see like a failure like I was describing, you would see that pretty quickly. The products would come out malformed and it, you know, it would it would be pretty obvious that there's something wrong.
Jeremy, you were involved with the warehouse approval at the planning board level. Correct. >> Correct. Yes, I testified on on that. >> And and there are multiple manufacturing uses that are permitted in the zone. We have a unique use that's why we're here as opposed to planning board. Correct.
>> Correct. >> So, can you just give board example? Did you have a user lined up or what type of user were you contemplating? >> We designed the building originally for warehousing. So, that's that is what we were originally going to do. And if we hadn't met these guys, we were, you
know, just about I think our bond is the only thing left to do now for the uh rest of the site work. Uh because we, like I said, we already got the utilities in. We already got the road in the driveways pretty much ready to go. Um and for a smaller building like this, you really have to have the building underway in order to get a tenant in. So
it, you know, it was kind of a win-win to find a local company, not only local to New Jersey, but manufacturing in New Jersey. It's just so rare. I mean a manu American manufacturing is not that common. But then New Jersey born and bred manufacturing it was just you know it was really a great opportunity for us
as a company. I feel really good about it you know providing a place that these guys can expand. They can hold on to their workforce because that actually matters to them. You know they don't look at their workforce as expandable or expendable rather. Um it is expandable not expendable. So, you know, it it's
just a great story for us to to have, you know, somebody that's going to be a long-term corporate citizen of HAL. Um, and you you heard from Russ, but I tell you his three brothers are are just as great. Um, you know, that run the company just like Russ uh described. >> And the general permit, the air quality
permit, that would be a condition of approval like any other outside agency approval. Correct. >> Absolutely. And if they were to change at some point and need, you know, a more sophisticated uh permit, you know, they'd have to come back to the board because I I, you know, if there's any favorable action, I assume they're going to condition it on uh the, you know, the
general air permit and, you know, they would be then uh subject to that as an ongoing condition, you know, for the life of the project. >> Mr. Chair, can I just ask a couple questions? All right. So, the makeup water, so that's coming from public water, not from a well, correct? >> Uh, where is that effluent discharge to?
public store. >> Okay. So, and you obviously there's already a utility approval for a warehousing use on the site. So, the applicant has and will make um a uh application to the utility company and then also OCUA making sure that any
change in the sewer demand with the use is compliant with the regulations. Correct. >> That that's correct. In fact, this is a dramatic reduction. We were at about 6,500 gallons per day. This is down around uh 2900 now. So it's a roughly half of what we previously projected.
>> Okay. And then going back to you talked about the how you know the proposed equipment it's the maximum for the worst case material. It's 11% for the VOCC's and it's 4% for for the particulate. Who determined that? Uh and when that's
submitted to D that's obviously going to be reviewed by some professional at D that has experience in that. Did you prepare those numbers or who did this on behalf of FlexCraft? So flexass has an internal like department of engineering essentially and then they also have air
separate air consultants. In addition the uh a lot of for most of these machines the manufacturers actually go through the u with the EPA basically to certify what each machine will produce under certain circumstances. So we've got this material in it. You're running
it you know at its max through rate. You know here's the um you know the emission. So, and then they take that worst case scenario on every I think there's 23 pieces of equipment. >> So, I guess my question is and I just want to make it clear for the board, right? Well, Mr. Dang is making a
representation. He doesn't work for Flexcraft. He's the developer that has the warehouse approval of the property and they're looking to sell this to Flexcraft. There is a professional that FlexCraft will engage that has already generated these numbers and they will be checked by D as part of their
application. um we get the representation, but there is other folks who have expertise specific to FlexCraft's operations that's going to prepare these and submit them to D for review and approval. So, well, I don't take exception to what he put on the record. I just want to make that clear
for the board that, you know, it is someone that's going to have, you know, uh more intimate knowledge and engage directly with Flexcraft, then they're going to have to submit that information to D to make sure that they comply with those requirements. So, um, and then we
kind of talked about the utility pools, right? So, I know the the Rock Solid application and property is a separate owner and entity. They all start with AA and then there's some different num uh num letters at the end. Can you provide us some timeline on what's the current
perspective for the road to get repaid? because I know while that's not part of this application, that is something that you know the condition of the road is not great and I think you know the residents that drive through there every day are a little curious on when that's going to happen. Um because it's you know it's been some time.
>> Yeah. So this is a Fairfield Road is actually a bus route. So it severely limits the uh time in which we can work on it. And then when you do, and and I'm sure you know this, when you do new utilities, you have to let the trench settle um so that it doesn't settle under the new road. So that all that
settlement is done now. Schools are getting out of session right now. I forget the exact day uh how finishes up, but it's you know, now I know my kids are out on Wednesday. Um so we will be this summer, sometime in July, we'll be doing two things really. in front of the
original warehouse that's already there. We're going to do full curb to curb mill and overlay just like everything that's currently done from the railroad all the way down to the schools like like we did that same thing in in front of the new warehouse. And then in front of this site, we're going to do stripe to
stripe. Uh because I frank, I have no confidence that the utility poles are going to be out of the way in time, but at least we'll get the travel surface, you know, white stripe to white stripe done so that it addresses those ridability issues. And then at some point when these utility poles are actually done and frankly at that point
if I'm waiting that long I'm going to wait till the heavy equipment is done you know coming in to build this site the flex graph site um and then you know probably next summer we would do then curb to curb of that whole stretch. >> So so okay so the commitment is in July
we're going to pay from the railroad tracks at the south of Rock Solid all the way through up to the northern property line which coincides with the subject property >> corre with All right. Now, um, are you able to dictate any construction equipment only coming from Route 33 to
build this subject site so that way we don't have a brand new paved road that's going to fall apart in 5 years with all the construction traffic? >> We we are and your um your town engineer, Mr. Ghost, would would be part of the whole pre-construction team. They're going to go over um, you know,
construction routes and and things like that. So, who whoever the I'm not sure who the contractor will be, but whoever that contractor will be will be coming in have that pre-construction meeting and they'll go over approved uh routes and hours of opera hours of construction all all that kind of stuff. >> So, okay. And then from the southern
part of your property all the way up to 33 business. So, you're going to mill and repave the travel lanes now >> uh up to not all the way to 33 business up to the end of the uh sewer improvement which stops short of that because our next is we have another
project that's a block over basically the old foreman farm at some point we'll be extending public sewer to that. So, right now the public sewer goes up past this site to a manhole and basically stops. It's right around the driveway to the New Jersey natural gas training
facility. That's roughly there. So that's where the milling overlay would stop now and then eventually we'll continue the sewer on go through the intersection with business 33 up 33. Um we have a pump station that we'll be installing up as this 33 as part of the
other project that utility pole's already moved. >> Okay. All right. So so as part of this warehouse, right? Um once the utility poles are moved, we're going to pave up to the basically the the off-ramp from 33. Yes. And then now you're just
waiting on the remaining sewer to service that other offsite property. And then after that's done, that will also get milled and repaved all the way to 33. >> Exactly. >> Okay, >> Jeremy. I think what would be helpful and it could be done as if the board
were to act in the affirmative as a post approval is if you just provide to the board specifically Charlie's office and I'm assuming Justin's office in the township as well is that schedule and like what exactly you're doing when >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> and like the limits of it and and when
you anticipate that happening just so that we have it in our file if somebody were to ask and then the town would have it in their file as well. Sure, >> Mr. Lang. Those um emissions thresholds you testified to earlier, those
measurements taken inside the building or is the outside air of the building or is that the air that's being exchanged to the outside? >> It it's neither. It the way it's done is each piece of equipment is indep individually analyzed. So, it's the
actual emissions from that machine is what they're doing. And then they aggregate. So in this case, there's 23 machines in the proposed operation here. And again, that could change later and they'd have to redo this, but at for what's currently proposed, there's 23
machines that have the potential um to emit. So that's what they look at. And like I said, it's been rated in two categories. Total VOCC's um and then total particular matter. And then there's another seven groups of machines that are like grinders, um vacuum pumps,
blenders, um things like that. And and the emissions from those machines is typically is emitted into the building into the the same air that that people in the building are breathing or are
are those machines filtered before they enter that that air inside the building? >> They're they're not filtered for VOCC's because they have such low emissions. Some of them are it depends on the machine. There's unc there's controlled and uncontrolled machines. Um control machines have filters right on them for
particulate matter. So depending on on what it is um you know they they'll do that filtering but it's on the machine itself. >> Okay. So there so there's the thresholds are low enough where there's no requirement to
filter the air that's being vented outside >> correct >> the building. Okay. >> That's correct. Yeah. There's no like mass you know buildingwide filtration. It's just there is some particular matter fil only on certain pieces of machinery and that's it. There's no uh VOCC filtration. It meets all these the
general standards just by the nature of the operation. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> Yeah, I got a question actually. Um piggybacking off of that. Um air quality monitors
>> they Yeah, they do not not have air quality monitoring >> and that's up to that's D code. So it it's not necessary, >> right? Because they're look right because they're looking at the potential emissions in the first place. So that's where the DP is starting. Like how bad
could this get? And that's why I was telling you before it's important to understand they're they're running every one of these machines 24/7 at its maximum output capacity with the worst material. When I say worst, material that would have the most potential emissions. And that's what they're adding up. And they're saying, "Okay,
that doesn't trip any of the reporting thresholds." So if it did, that'd be a whole another story because there's a whole another set of of permits when you need engineering controls, whether that's monitoring, filtration, or or other types of things. That's a different level of permitting. This is the most,
you know, basic or minor level of air permitting. >> So Jeremy, this is a general permit, and if you want to equate it to like wetlands permitting, it's a GP versus an individual permit. >> Exactly. >> Correct. Correct. >> That's a great analogy. So typically if if you were going to get a wetlands general permit, there's a list of things
you have to comply with. If you demonstrate compliance, you're issued the permit versus an individual permit where there could be mitigation or other things that you have to do. >> Great analogy. >> How often do you have to submit the paperwork to the D? Is it done quarterly
or is it done monthly? Like what how often do you submit the paperwork? >> It's a modeling thing. So it's basically every time they make a change they have to re-register. So if they get a new piece of equipment they've got to redo it because then they because the DB is not just looking at each machine they're
looking at the totality of it. So that's why when they change a piece of equipment they've got to redo it for the whole batch and then relook at what's the net of you know in totality of of >> so even if they were replacing an existing piece of equipment with a newer model they would have to rerun everything.
>> Yes. They would then have to basically do the same thing at the first time. And I don't know if you know the answer um but what is typically like the life of some of this equipment? Is it like 25 years? Is it five years? Like >> how often do we anticipate like like
replacing equipment? I mean I understand that things break. So like we'll leave leave that to the side, right? But like you sometimes like you have a dryer and it just stops functioning properly. So like what's the life side like the life of these? >> I've had Russ on that. Uh certain piece
of equipment >> use this for us. >> Yeah, you can. >> Everything's made in China, so it lasts 60 days. >> Do have grinders and certain pieces of equipment that have been in service for 20 plus years. It's really all about kind of how you maintain them, take care
of them. You know, it is a lot of, >> you know, machinery that if you take care of, they can last a long time. >> Do you have like a capital plan? like you know we anticipate having to replace like three pieces of equipment annually just to make sure or it really depends
on how the equipment is functioning. >> It depends on how the equipment is functioning and what new business we're bringing in. Okay. >> So right now with the newer pieces of equipment some of the things that go are more like computers basically PLC's on the machines not necessarily the machines themselves but that's the
biggest wear and tear items. So, >> it's funny that you think I know what that means, but okay. >> What What is that PL? What >> PLC? It's just like the the logic, the computer. Basically, you can think of it as the computer of the machine. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, sorry. And then before you go, so as
far as servicing the equipment, it's all oil or hydraulic based. So, like when that's done, it's by a technician who knows what they're doing. if there's a spill or they have to replace hydraulic uh fluids like that's done in appropriate manners in accordance with like hazardous materials and NDP requirements.
>> We have a full department and a team of people that have been doing it for a very long time. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Anything else from the board or professionals? >> Questions have been answered. Okay, that's all you have
>> for this one. >> Okay, now we are at 10:00. We have This case is very important to a lot of people and I do want to respect make sure we give it as much time as we need to make sure all our questions are
asked. I know we've covered a lot tonight already, but I think it's more beneficial that we come back fresh and get everything so the public would be able to get their questions in and you can finish up. So, we have to look at the next
date as far as when we can bring them back. >> Can Can we have the second one on July 13th? >> We have three. >> I know one >> one's mine. So that would >> so Mr. Mr. Chairman >> Yes.
>> after we carried um >> I'm sorry after the board carried at Bernard Joure to July 13th his attorney came and said his client had a a problem on that day. So, but since we had
officially carried it >> on the third to so on the 13th, >> we'll we'll carry it again till I guess when Lisa said to July 27th. Okay. >> So, I just wanted to be aware that that's not on going to be on for July.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't even think that's going to take that long anyway. But either either way, >> we'll >> So, if we could have July 13th for this, um I understand my other application may not get reached, but >> yeah, >> that's unfortunately I want to make sure everybody gets heard and we get
everything taken care of before we Okay. >> Yeah, we and we do have several more witnesses, so we >> Yeah, and I don't want to be rushing >> and let us uh kind of regroup and have our questions. >> Thank you. So, if we could announce that date, that would be appreciative. So, we
don't have to renotice. >> What's this date? >> Okay. Case number BA26-08 AA STH HW Properties LLC is going to be carried to July 13th with no further notice and the expiration
will stay the same. >> So, we'll see you back on the 13th. >> Thank you. Thank you everyone. >> Okay. Thank you. Okay. At this time, if there's no further business of the board, I will entertain a motion to close.
>> Motion to close. >> Motion by Ann Marie. Who? Second. >> Second. >> Second by Mr. Kabarakus. All in favor? >> We'll say everybody on the 13th.