Morning. Tuesday, June 3rd, 2025, regular board of county commissions meeting will now be called to order. We'll begin with a moment of silent reflection for the first responders and members of the armed forces, which will be be followed by an invocation by none other than
Mr. Commissioner Law and we will then have the pledge of allegiance by the county administrator John Tanich. Please rise. Please pray with me. Our heavenly father, we thank you for this glorious day as we kick off summer. Father, we
ask that you continue to provide protection for all of our first responders, our law enforcement, all of our county employees, all of our state and federal employees. Father, we know in Matthew 8 how you calm the storms and we ask again, Father, for the remainder of this
hurricane season that you provide guidance and wisdom and protection for all members of Indian River County in your son's name. Amen. Amen. Please place the flag. Please face the flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. leg adjustment. Okay.
Good morning all and we will now begin with uh any additions deletions to the agenda and any emergency items. Seeing none approve second. Have a motion by Commissioner Joe Airman, seconded by
Commissioner Adams. Any further discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. We'll now move on to uh there are no proclamations or presentations, but we do have approval
of the minutes. Regular meeting for the minutes of March 25th, 2025. Approve. We have a motion by vice vice chairman law, seconded by myself. Any further discussion? All in favor?
Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. We now move on to the approval of the minutes for the regular meeting of April 8th, 2025. We have a motion by commission, seconded by vice chairman law. Any further
discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. Move on to uhformational items. Um is there anything that anybody would like to discuss onformational items?
We do have our uh consummating order uh for the public service commission and uh and just a minor adjustment uh on a scrivenness error uh that was uh
detected on the S tax distribution percentages. Seeing nothing else at this time, if there's anyone in the audience in attendance that wishes to speak about any item that is on the agenda, whether
it be consent or uh on the remaining of the agenda, so long as it's not for the quasi judicial hearing, uh you have an opportunity to speak now if you're not going to be in attendance later. two
microphones. All right. Well, we'll move on to the consent agenda. Commissioners approve. We have a motion by Vice Chairman Law, seconded by Commissioner Adams. Any further discussion?
All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. We'll now move on to uh we have nothing under uh constitutional offices and governmental agencies. I'm sure that's uh going to come very
quickly at a a hearing coming up. Uh so we will hear from all of them. Uh we will now move on to public hearings. And the first item is a uh public hearing item 11 A1 which is the St. Lucy
Housing Finance Authority Bonds hearing. Good morning commissioner. Good morning councelor. How are you? Outstanding. Thank you for your fine work. Commissioners, if you recall, we were here about a month ago asking the the we
were asking to sign a area of operation agreement with St. Lucy Housing Finance Authority to allow a low-inccome housing project to go forward. We're here back for the it has gone forward through St. Lucy County Housing Finance Authority. It is also they've approved the bond and
I believe they've already had their TER hearing. We're here for that hearing this morning to finalize that to allow them to issue the bonds and the project to go forward. We have a representative from the company here if there's any questions for them. We are just asking,
excuse me, the board to approve the ter hearing and allow them to go forward with the project and have the bonds issued. This is the hearing. Yes, sir. We would ask you to open up the public hearing and yes, take comment. Thank you. Any questions for council?
No. Seeing none, this is a public hearing and we'll now open it for public input. Having given an ample opportunity for anyone to approach to discuss, we'll now close the public hearing. Mr. Chair, move approval. We have a
motion by Commissioner Adams, seconded by myself. Any further discussion? Mr. Chair, I'll only add that I I spoke in detail with the administrator about this uh consistent with our affordable housing and uh the perk of the dollars
not going through our county and we have no financial responsibility in this matter. Yes. And it is a a benefit that uh we would have to uh have to percolate and and put into funding uh to have this
mechanism. So we're kind of blessed in a way that we have them to step up to the plate and opportunity. There were years ago where we hand we did this through the another jurisdiction in the panhandle and it caused great discussion
as to hey why why aren't you all doing it yourself? Uh again the cost factor of of having that administration and them stepping up to the plate to willing to do it is a uh a great benefit. Yes sir. So and thank you for your work. Thank
you for bringing that up. Any further discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. Thank you. Thank you. The next item is the
uh item 11 A2, which is the Sage Cottage uh Land Company LLC's request to reszone approximately plus or minus 13.2 2 acres from RS6 single family residential
district to RM6 multiple family residential district and there are attachments but before we begin the discussion uh this is a quasi judicial matter so uh the item on the
agenda is a request for Sage Cottage Land Company LLC to reszone approximately 13.2 2 acres from RS6 single family residential district to RM6 multiple family residential
district. This is a quasi judicial hearing and proceeding and the parties that are involved are the Indie River County and the Sage Cottage Land Company LLC, also known as the applicant.
With that, uh, we'll begin with the on the left and I I need to know I have to ask all commissioners to disclose any exparte communications, site visits, or independent investigations. Uh, none.
No, none that I'm aware of. None that I'm aware of. Thank you. With that, we also have to confirm that the commissioners have an open mind and are able to base their decision on the evidence that is presented in applicable
law. Can and will. Can or will. Can and will. Can and will. Can and will. Thank you. At this time, we will open the public hearing and beginning with
staff presentation. And I ask the clerk to swear in anyone that uh will bear witness uh and we can do that collectively. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes.
Thank you, Madam Clerk. We'll now uh move forward with a presentation by staff. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. Patrick Murphy, chief of long-range planning. Happy to present this resoning to you today. On the screen, you'll see an aerial map showing this property. The
area to be reszoned is approximately 13.2 acres of a larger 23.5 acre parcel. It's located on the south side of 9inth Street, otherwise known as Oslo Road, approximately a half mile west of 7th Road Southwest, and about a third mile east of 20th Avenue Southwest. This area
is characterized by a mixed pattern of uses, including residential, public, and commercial, industrial. The countyy's IG recreation center and a transit hub are also located directly across Oslo on the north side of the road. The zoning map you have before
you, you can see this sort of tan color was predominant on this map. This is an RS6 zoning. Uh the parcel currently has split zoning. The northern portion is RM6, multiple family residential, and the southern portion, which you're looking at here today, is
RS6. The property is bordered by RM6 zoning to the east, RX6 zoning to the south. It is adjacent to commercial and industrial zones, CHN, and IIL to the north. Uh, directly to the west, and the hashed area is actually med medical use.
The entire property is designated L2, low density residential 2, which allows up to six units per acre. That's its future land use designation. That's the tan color on this map. You can see it's predominantly this area is L2. Uh table 2.14 of the county's comprehensive plan
establishes both the RS6 and RM6 as permitted districts within this future land use category. The R six district is intended to provide areas suitable for lowdensity single family detached residential neighborhoods. It allows for traditional
single family residents at a modern urban density up to six units per acre. It also includes complimentary neighborhood uses like parks, schools, and churches. And on the screen below, you'll see a little table showing the development standards minimum for this district. In comparison, the RM6
district is also intended to provide areas suitable for lowdensity multiple family residential development, also allowing up to six units per acre as a maximum density. Uh, this district allows a more diverse residential building type, including town homes, duplexes, apartments, condominiums, as
well as single family homes. It serves also as a transitional zoning between single family residential neighborhoods and more intensive commercial or industrial uses. The chart below also shows its development standards which are actually very similar to RS6. So anytime we do a resoning we have
to look at chapter 902.123 which provides an analysis and builds in an evaluation criteria by which is to be judged. The first of which is item A is the reasoning in conflict with any applicable portion of the land development regulations. staff
found that there were no conflicts with the applicable land development regulations for the requested RM6 zoning designation. It is very similar to R six and it actually will simplify the site plan process by not having to blend open space or look at different setbacks
throughout the community. It'll have an entire homogeneous zoning across the property. Item B is a consistent with all elements of the comprehensive plan. We evaluated future land use element objective 5 policies 1.4 1.43 43 and 5.2
and found that the parcel fronts on Ontario roadway Oslo Road is across from public facilities and is adjacent to existing RM6 and commercial zones. So it does uh it is consistent with the comprehensive plan. Is the resoning consistent with existing and proposed
land uses? Proposed RM6 zoning is consistent with existing L2 future land use designation and it is consistent with what is surrounding it. Item D is in compliance with the adopted adopted county thorough affair plan. The property is located on the south side of
N 9inth Street Southwest. It's approximately half mile west of 7th road and a third mile east of 20th Avenue. Oslo is designated as a major artiller roadway on our Palm Comprehensive Plan roadway designation map. Item E, would the resoning generate traffic which
would decrease levels of service as adopted? Our traffic uh inspectors actually looked at all the roadway segments and found that the area of influence would operate at an acceptable level of service under the proposed RM6 zoning. Because it does not increase the
density, the amount of trips would be similar to if it would stay RS6 and actually a multifamily trip generation is slightly less than a single family trip generation. Item F, would the resoning uh be subject to change conditions that warrant an
amendment? This is one of the bigger ones to look at. What we determined was since the property was assigned its original zoning classification, the Oslo Road Quarter has experienced increased development activity, including the future I95 Oslo interchange located not too far west from here. And the
construction of a county across the street has warranted a change into a more diverse multiple family zoning district along this cor corridor. and especially this particular parcel. Item G, would it decrease the levels of service established for sanitary sewer,
potable water, solid waste, drainage, and recreation? Uh, the applicant will be required to pay connection customer utility fees. A more detailed concurrency review will be conducted during development review process, but we did not find it would decrease any of the level
services. Um, and down below you'll see a comparison. And the most intense use under his existing zoning would allow for 141 units. His most intense under the proposed zoning equal 141 units as the density is not increasing. Item H says the reszoning
result in the significant adverse impacts on the natural environment. Uh the total 23 acres of the subject parcel is currently undeveloped. Therefore, a more detailed environmental analysis will required when the sight specific development proposal is determined. um any development is going to disturb the
natural environment. So we'll look at environmental studies, tree surveys, and look to see how we can incorporate a best design into this plan. Item A, I excuse me. Will it result in the orderly and logical development pattern specifically identifying any negative
effects on such pattern? The de uh property proposed amendment aligns with the comprehensive plan and the surrounding land uses. We did not see that it would uh disrupt that development pattern. Item J is the resing in conflict with the public interest and is in harmony with the
purpose and intent of the land development regulations. Staff found no adverse impacts in regards to public welfare and finds that the request aligns with the purpose and intent of the LDRs. Finally, item K sort of a catchall any other matters that may be deemed
appropriate in review and consideration of the proposed amendment such as police protection, fire protection, and emergency medical services. Saff found that all concurrency mandated facilities have adequate capacity to accommodate the most intense use under the proposed zoning
district. In conclusion, the requested RM6 zoning district is compatible with the surrounding area. It's consistent with the goals, objectives, and policies of the county's adopted comprehensive plan. It is consistent with the county's land development regulations. The
subject property is deemed suitable for RM6 zoning, and the resing is supported by staff. recommendation. Staff and the planning and zoning commission recommend that the board of county commissioners approve this request to reszone the subject property from R6 to RM6. If there are
any questions this time, I'd be happy to answer them. The applicant's representative is also in attendance. Thank you. Commissioners, any questions of staff? At this time, if the applicant had questions of staff, it would be appropriate. But,
uh, good morning, chairman. Rebecca Grohal, MBV Engineering. For the record, I was sworn in. I'm here today on behalf of the owner and the applicant, Sage Cottage Land LLC. I want to thank staff for their assistance and support of this item. The presentation was
straightforward and we have demonstrated that the resoning is consistent with the land use and the zoning requirements found within the land development regulations. I'm here to answer any questions you might have, to hear from the public if there's any questions or concerns and to ask for your support.
Thank you so much. Thank you. This is the opportunity for the applicant to make a statement. If that is the statement from the applicant, then we will move uh forward as well. Is there any other presentation from the
applicant? If not, commissioners, do you have any uh questions uh for the applicant? County staff. Um, I did want to add that I did field about a half dozen calls from folks that lived within 300 feet of the property. They did receive the mailers. They were general inquiry type
questions. Uh, once I went over this request with them, they all seemed pretty satisfied. No one opposed it. We did not receive any letters in the mail. Um, and that was the extent of my public outreach or received from the public their outreach. Just wanted to add that to the record.
Uh that would segue right into any input from the public at this time. Anyone wishing to have input on this matter? Any further questions by commissioners or county staff of the
applicant? None. County staff, do you have uh any final presentation? No, sir. You're right. By the applicant. Thank you. At this time, we'll close the
public hearing. Mr. Chair, this is consistent with our comp plan. It's not an it's not a a hard lift. Uh it is within uh the current USB. With that, I move staff approval.
Second. That's a motion by Vice Chairman Law, seconded by myself. Is there any further discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations
today applicant. Next item, we'll move on to human resources. Uh item 13D1 is the group insurance recommendations for the plan of 2025 2026 and there are multiple attachments.
Uh, Mr. Chair, uh, I understand our human resources director is having technical difficulties with her PowerPoint and she's working that and she's on her way. Is it a possibility we can move on and come back to that? At this time, county administrator, we can defer this. Without the presentation, it
would not be appropriate to move this matter further. So then we will continue on and move forward. Uh if that pleased the board. Yeah, that's fine. Yes. All right. That item will be deferred until the
technical difficulty can be resolved. Time permitting. Next matter is we'll move on to county attorney matters. Um again uh this is uh item 14A alpha which is
children service advisory committee appointment. Commissioners, we had a recent resignation of one of your atlarge members on the children's services advisory committee. So, we have um
advertised that um member at large vacancy that would be uh filling uh fulfilling the rest of the term which expires in January 2029. So, we have uh like I said advertised the vacancy. We've received
uh the names that are listed here in your board item as um people who are able and qualified and ready to interested applicants. So, at this point, I'm really simply asking the board to consider these applicants and
appoint one or one of the applicants if you find there's someone that you want to appoint. counselor. I appreciate the uh the research and the provision of all of the uh resumeumés and applications and I hope and trust that uh my
colleagues have all reviewed them and at this time I would uh nominate Eric J. Seymour. Second. And we have a motion and a second. Do we have any other
nominations? Seeing none, we close nominations. All in favor? I opposed. Motion carried unanimously. Thank you, councelor. Congratulations to Eric
Clemore, I think. It's a tall task. He's a rather tall man. We'll now move on to uh uh more subtle matter uh item 14B which is a discussion on the
Kolkata docks country club point and we see councelor approaching. Good morning councelor. Good morning commissioner. Susan part deputy county attorney on behalf of the county attorney's office. Um, I have brought this matter back up
again. I think we were here last time y'all recommended that we bring it back at a later date. Um, we found this date and this item was brought about back in November of last year where there were some questions and some concerns, just some
history on this really quick. Um, did some research. um brought it back to y'all to get some some guidance on where you guys would like to go with this. Um and that's why we're here today because I need to firm up that and I need to get a decision from all five of the
commissioners on what way you all would like to go. Um the main reason for bringing this I would like to note um in this discussion is because in the research that I have done there has been a discovery that there currently exists no public benefit for this and there has
to be a public benefit in order for us to be dealing with our public property. We cannot give public property that would result in a private gain. Um under case law from the Florida um from the Florida Supreme Court even it mentions that um if there is any private gain in
something like this it needs to be very minuscule or pecuniary. The public benefit cannot be minuscule or pecuniary and in this case it would seem that that's the case um as there has been private gain necessarily from this. So, um, I'm coming back to the board today
to kind of give you the options that we have legally on what we can or what the county would be able to do. Um, please bear in mind that any of these options could still result in someone contesting an option um, even if we were to leave
it as it is today. That being one of the options, I just want to put that out there. So the first option is to and I'm just going to go through them. That would be to rent the doc slips out at a fair
market value. The public benefit there and this is substantiated under um Florida Supreme Court case law is revenue. Revenue is actually a public benefit. What it does is it actually lessens the tax burden on the other 155,000 residents that are here in this
county. because I know I think there's something like 20 docks and we have 170 something thousand residents. So the second option would be to abandon the right of way to an HOA pursuant to Florida statute section
336.125. Um there are requirements for how that HOA is formed. Um and so that HOA would have to be formed in consistent with those requirements of the Florida statute. And if we were to do that, that requires public notice and public
hearings obviously for abandonment of rightofway. Option three is abandonment of rightway to adjacent property owners. This would be homeowners that live on Kolkata Drive. In other words, if we're looking at the plat um it would go basically to the owners that are right
just across the street and it would get dividended. I think there's nine properties across the street. Um so it would get dividend that way. that would require public notice and public hearings. Option four would be to sell the land at a fair market value or via
uh bid process pursuant to Florida statute 125.35. This one we would also need to give notice and the new owners of it would essentially step into our shoes of the license agreement. So just as if we were to sell any other property or if we
were to purchase any other property, we would step into the shoes of the then lesser. Whoever would take over would step into our shoes as the lesser of the licenses and that would become an issue between them and the then doc lees. Um similarly with some of the right of way
abandonments. Um option five would be to leave the licenses as is and do nothing. As I mentioned, the downfall to that is the potential of the constitutional challenges because of the lack of the public benefit. So, all of these have
potentials. Um, someone may be upset and may challenge, but um it's my duty to let you all know what the benefits and what the pitfalls of them are. If there's an option you all would like to discuss more, I'm happy to. I just wanted to at least briefly go down what
these were for y'all so you can um kind of see where you'd like to go. Thank you. Council, you said you you uh researched this as best we can thoroughly. Uh it
was rather complicated um unraveling of why we're here and I appreciate all your your work there. Can you for uh public consumption, can you tell us when this all began as far as
the leasing of the property? Oh my goodness. or how it happened because I understand that we we did not actually purchase this. Well, the citizens did not actually purchase it, but we have ownership. That
That's correct. So, this happened when we were turned over the ride ofway and as the upland owners and the right of way, we adjoin the budding land to it. So that would be the waterway or that canal there, that half of the canal, the part that's on Kolkata Drive. That
happened a number of years ago. I know that previously they did hold harmlesses. Yes. Um prior to 1991 or 1997 um and then after that in the '9s, early to mid 90s, they started doing a license
agreement with the um people that then held a dock. Um, and from there that license agreement kind of it it went on and it had stayed that way until 2022 when the prior county attorney Dylan Rangold brought an item forward to um to
amend and to try to fix some of the issues that we were encountering with the docs. Um, like any, you know, like any good attorney, trying to see the things and see all the issues that could possibly pop up. Obviously, as we've now installed and installed some of these agreements, there are still some issues
that we're flushing out and that's where um some of the questions and concerns and complaints came to our office into your office, many of your offices. Um and so we then tried to fix the issue, do some research, see how we could fix
these issues with the complaints from the updated uh lease that was proposed to this board back in 2022. And that's where we are now is trying to fix those issues that we have since then flush trying to see what we can flush out. So for some 35 years
um some have paid a certain rate uh for a lease undetermined lease and some paid a different rate or was it all consistent? No sir, they were different. Um, so I can tell
you some of them paid like $100. I think one of them's not paying anything. The new lease agreement that was agreed to back in 2022 with Mr. Rinold was I believe there's a $5,000 transfer fee and I think it was $2,500 per year um lease fee. I'm sorry.
2,000 $2,000 a year lease fee. Um but that's what that's what transpired then. I can say that um those lease those license agreements and researching them, they technically are leases pursuant to the case law. Um and while there is no
actual date in them that says that they terminate uh pursuant to case law in Florida statute, if they're renewable or they pay annually, it means that they're able to be terminated. It's an annual lease. Um and they can be terminated with as little as three months notice.
So that's that's the research and underneath the Florida statute for that and that's going to be um forgive me I brought them with me just in case and that's going to be 83.02 and 83.03.
So again, I bring that up because after 35 years, uh if some some of the uh leases have been involved since then, they would actually be it would be safe
to assume that they would feel that they own the dock. That's based on the continuence of the lease. That's correct. Um, in the meetings that I've had with a couple or the conversations I've had with a couple of the leases, um, it has been said to
me that they own the dock. Um, I have looked at every single deed from each of their properties, from the original property, um, to the oldest deed that I could find for their property and none of them portrays or gives anything from that dock. What it does do is it gives
for example it would say um country club you know plat phase one lot five and lot five is just you've got your lot your square nowhere in it doesn't mention anything about the dock or the riparian rights um
in them. So none of them were ever deed from the actual developer or the person that ever even started this to any of the original owners. And the way it works is in property law, you can only give what you have. So um you can't give more than what you have. You have three
apples, you can't promise to give five because you don't have five apples, you have three apples. So that's the way that works. Is it a safe presumption that uh that when when this all transpired some 35 years ago, it was that the HOA did not
want the accountability and responsibility for that and that we presumed that in some good faith. I know I will say with a caveat that I was not a practicing lawyer back then that that probably was a safe
presumption that the board was making at that time and I know none of you were here. So I think that if that's that probably would have been what was thought of at that point in time otherwise how would we have ended up with a road um and the maintenance of the roads and everything in there that were previously part of the HOA and were
privately roads private maintained by the HOA. So these are the things that get transferred that got transferred over to the county. I I think that's a pretty important factor for what we have to discuss today because as you said, you
can't give what you don't have. And I I don't I need to truly know the nexus of why why we're in the position we're in. We visited this thing several times and
there's solution to to for repairs, solution for address to where we're are uh and where the where the citizens who have the luxury and privilege of having the dock because of
the lease. Uh however by the same token they um there is certain presumptions that may or may not be accurate. So how do we move forward if
we are we certain that it is in our possession that I am sorry meaning the citizens? I'm not sure that the citizens from the ones I've spoken to even as late as last week, I don't think that
they understand that it is not theirs. Many of them have stated that they have purchased it along with and they paid extra for their property because the dock came with it. However, it goes back to the concept of you can't give more than what you own. So looking at all of their legal
descriptions, you get what's on your legal description and the legal description says lot, you know, seven of plat book five, page one for Kolkata, whether it's phase one or phase two. So that's that's what that is. And I
understand um I understand why a lot of them may be may be upset. And this is I' I'd like to just go ahead and say it's nothing flat out. It's nothing. It's not a personal attack. It's nothing of that nature because I know I think some of them have felt it may have been. But it
most certainly is not. It's purely the fact of the matter is this is what we have and I have to give advice based on the Florida Constitution and the case law and the statutes to you all. And that's purely what is happening here today. And I want to make sure that I'm
offering those options to you all. And you stated also stated that uh the the payment the the financial benefit can be perceived as the public benefit for the county and the citizens of Indie River
County. Correct. But under that it has to be an actual negotiator like a fair market value. You can't give someone to a less than fair market value something unless they're giving a public benefit. For example, there's case law that um a county had leased a baseball area to a
little league team. Well, the purpose of that was they were giving the public benefit of they were it was meant for uh precisely that for recreational area. So, they were giving back and letting the public come in and use that area. Here, there is no public benefit. Um,
I've driven by the the docks, in fact, actually yesterday, and three of them that I could count had signs that said private property, no trespassing. So, there definitely is not a public benefit. There's an exclusive use to each individual owner. Um, so therefore,
in order to prevent us from giving what would be public to a private to give a private benefit, it would have to be something that would be fair market um value. And that's why the suggestion to move to what it was that Mr. Rinold suggested back in
2022 to be reasonable as I believe he did some research on that um that topic and trying to figure out how much the slips would cost. Thank you. Any questions of council? Mr.
Chairman, I think Susan explained it very well what our options are and I think this is a kind of a semi no-win scenario for us in a
way. Um, yeah, we could continue to stay in it and rent the docks, rent slips. I think she just discussed it. There has to be a definitive align there of some kind. The big thing for me is there is no public benefit for this. We
spend the county's attorney's office, even when Dylan was here, has spent way too much time on this particular thing. Um, leases and agreements are all different. It's it's there there's just
so much going on here, you know. Um, I've looked at this again and again and I think we only have two options or maybe three but two of them are abandoning abandoning in it or four
is uh sell sell the slips or sell the area somehow for you know what fair market value is. maybe give the doc the people that are there give them first right or refusal. I I don't know. I don't know
how those details would work out, but I only see um abandoning the property either the rightway to an HOA or adjacent property owners or or sell the property and get out because I don't think we as the
county need to be running a mini marina uh for this. These people are quite capable, I think, of managing it themselves and doing what they need to do. I mean, I think we would serve the public
well by by trying to sell this and make some in make some money from the county, but how much money can we really make on this? I don't know. Would would people that have their vessels there be willing to accept whatever price we come up with? I I I frankly think we need to get
out of the mini marina business and and move on and and let the let the private citizens uh work on this. That's I'll stop there. I want to hear what what each of you have to say. I'd like to hear what they have to say, but that's
that's that's where I'm at is that we need to get out somehow. There's through abandonment or sale. I don't think we need to manage it and try to do this and do that. I just I don't think I think they they're more than
capable of doing it themselves. Boat owners are some of the I'm a boat owner and uh you know I can't use that dock there because it's not a public benefit. I can't use it. But I'm a boat owner and most boat owners spend a lot of time on
their boat. They know how to take care of it. They know how to manage it. They know how to manage the dock. they know the the um the the the courtesies and the and the decorum of of of heaven boat next to you with another dock and all that stuff. And I I think
they're more than capable of doing it. So, I think we need to find a way to turn it over to them somehow is where I'm at. And I think that's got to be either through abandonment or or sale. So, I'll leave it at that. Mr. Chair, I would again remind the
board that this is only a public discussion. There'll be no vote taken or no policy decision made today. I do think it's important to recognize and realize that uh we continue to bring up this public benefit
uh through the attorney's office, which we understand that. However, we've been in this business for almost 40 years. uh and now it all of a sudden is lack of a public benefit. So, it's going to take time to look at this, dissect it. Uh I
don't think the I know that the parcels are not given partial numbers, separate and distinct parcel numbers. If we were to go to that option, uh they're not. Uh if you wanted to put these on the tax roll, I understand that. Uh but
I think further investigation needs to occur. with the previous uh quasi homeowners association that had it. But the research indicates that it was basically uh first come first serve is how they initially
acquired these docks. So there's work to be done councelor. Yes sir. Vice chairman just stated that there were no parallel numbers. So they're they're not there's no specific
address as we had discussed and we were moving forward with having specific addresses. So the properties could be addressed as taxable parcels. They they
have been given addresses. That's where the numbers that went out the one through 20. So it's Kolkata and then the doc one doc two doc. So they do have their addresses. The planning division did go ahead and issue those. So they are there
but it is one big parcel. One big parcel. So it has not been divided into individual geocoded parcels. From my understanding, no sir. They gave it one address and then said dock one, do two, do three. They did it what they thought would be
the easiest mechanism for identifying and for purposes of getting a building permit. Is that mechanism possible as we discussed or in in the past or to have it split out? It is. Yes, it is. I don't see why it wouldn't be unless and I
apologize. I'm not the planner assigning the um the addresses so I don't want to speak out of turn but I believe it is from the discussions we had. It's just they won't be as neat as one, two, three, four. It may be Kolkata Drive, 759 or Kolkata Drive, some random odd
number. Just so that way they're aware that was the issue and that's why they thought this would be the most cleancut mechanism. Okay. Yes, sir. Because there are existing numbers and they would not be able to squeeze them in. Yes. And to
have them in successive. That is the problem. Yes, sir. Okay. Mr. Chair, may I address a comment that Commissioner Lure said? Can I just quickly address it? Which is that we we we do not have a concrete proposal in
front of you. So, in that sense, we are making a recommendation to you, but we are seeking a a direction from a consensus of the board because at this point, we cannot move forward. We have people trying to sign up for leases. We're trying to we're in holding pattern
and so we are seeking uh direction from the board and in a concrete way as far as to try to understand what a majority of you want to do of the options that Susan presented. Thank you. Well, we we do have um
again consistent we have many leases. Some are closer to term than others. Some are brand new. So there is a time that we would
have to honor our lease or break the lease. Uh such being the case. Um I I don't think uh I did hear the the comment about we're not we're not voting
on action today, but we're getting direction today. We have to move somewhere on this otherwise it will be another 35 years before this thing is sorted out. Uh it's just that simple. I
think uh the the docks uh were assigned at a different time in a different environment. Uh we were far smaller. uh there was not so many endeavors that had
full public benefit and it was something that was done at the time. It's very difficult as as same way as we're we're going over our centennial and uh looking at uh looking at things that were done
50 years ago. uh unless you place yourself into the environment of what was going on 50 years ago, how can you approve or disapprove of what was done? And that's why we have to
re-examine. Uh so again, I can't I don't know what was in the minds of 35 years ago. It was probably the most convenient. Uh it was a good solution uh at the time. It would not be a good solution today because we can see how
how much unraveling there is as far as the difficulties in maintenance and uh ownership and delivery of service. So we are looking for direction today. Uh I think well council is because uh council
has worked on this for months and it is got to come to a better solution code. Thank you. You're good for now. I have a good job. I have a couple of
questions. Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. Um with regard to uh you've made it very clear that revenue is a public benefit. Yes, ma'am. That's clear. I know it's a complicated situation, but that's very clear. So, we need to either generate
revenue or walk away having gained revenue and that's my position on this. So, my question actually I have two with regard to the first option that you stated which is uh rent at fair market
value. Are we not charging enough rent right now that it's not a public benefit? Should we be charging a higher amount? Because you did mention you it's based on amount whether or not it's viewed as sufficient.
So, and I can tell you that back and I was taking this back off of what was changed back in 2022 was the consensus was as new licenses or new lease agreements were entered into that they would be bumped up to the higher amount because what was being there was not sufficient. $100 does not cover the
staff time or the staff uh the work that goes into it. So essentially, we're dipping into the general fund, uh, general taxpayer dollars to make up for those hours and for that time to pay for that. So it's not paying for itself. Um, so it at the very minimum had to do
that. I know that was the discussion that um, did occur back in 2022. And so in a spirit of keeping with that with the direction that the board gave then, that was why I moved forward with the suggestion to have the same amount that was there. I did look around to see what
other slips we had in the area. Obviously, I know that there's a difference. I know that there's I now know I had no idea that there's skinny water and some other kind and I'm sorry, I'm not a boater. Some other kind of water and there's access some sort of access to either the river or the ocean
and there's not. So, that may be a differentiating factor in the price. So, I do understand that. So, but in in looking around in some of these, I know um obviously the city of Arrow has their marina um and they charge, you know, per foot, uh whatever it is, and just
looking at them as another governmental agency, not saying that that number is actually what it should be, but just looking at them as another governmental agency and saying, "Hey, see, this is also something that they clearly have taken into consideration and when they're looking at this, so we need to kind of figure out where we need to be
and why I went back to suggesting the 2,000 without having to go through and do um hire someone and doing an entire analysis of what the actual fair market value could be. Um so, but I suppose we could do that too if that's the instruction of the board if that's the way that they would like to go. Well,
that that's what I was wondering if you thought that the $2,000 was insufficient to be to um state to be stated as a public benefit. That's not enough money to charge. No, ma'am. That's not what I was
saying um at all. I was just saying the $100 was not sufficient. Well, yeah. 100. Well, that that was absurd. And and may I just kind of jump in here if you don't mind? I think the problem is is we were in the past interpretations of the
lease. The leases were not turning over. Um we we these people were felt or were having the way it was looked at was they kind of had this endless lease with license without a license term. And the idea was that they
were going to slowly move people into this new lease agreement. But the problem is is we've had very little turnover. And so people who are on the list are frustrated that can never get off the list. And we've got a lot of people still at the$100 or $200 rate,
the minimal rate. Um the research that we did was that we do think we can uh support a legal interpretation for an annual lease rather than this endless license. We don't think that case laws
or the statutes support that. Um when we brought that to you, uh earlier we were getting a lot of kickback from these dock owners that are on the $100 license forever deals. Um but that
I do think you could go in that direction and just as the leases come up move to the higher amount. Um, unfortunately, you know, whatever we do, we're we may get challenged because that's what we're hearing from from these doc owners, which is some of them,
I should say, which is which is frustrating, but that is an area we could move forward, but we'd have to be more aggressive in this turnover. If um and my second question had to do again back to revenue, if we were to
sell um sell the the uh the docks. I know you keep mentioning fair market value um like any other property. Is there something that would prevent us if we were to sell them just to sell them, you know, to the highest bidder?
That's it. No, no, there isn't. And actually, that's Sorry, I'm turning to the statute now. that comes under Florida statute 125.35 and that's where the county is authorized to sell real and personal property and to lease real and personal property and that's where it comes from and it it flat out says
basically that we can do that and it would be done through a bidding process. The other mechanism if you look at that under subsection 3 it does say that we as the county can create an alternative method but it still has to be a competitive method and it still has to
be negotiated at a fair market value. It can't be something that's given for a a very minimal or a non a nominal value, if you will. If there's something given to a nominal value, it needs to be, like I said, there has to be a public benefit to it. I know there was another statute that was floating around that was
mentioned um by I believe some of the dock owners and that particular statute even says in it that there is a public benefit or it's given for a public purpose. Um so whatever it is, it it either if it's for nominal value, it has to be a public purpose. um if it's for a
monetary value um then you know we can do that if it's for its private purpose. So we we can sell it at the highest price that we could obtain for it. Is that correct? Correct. Okay. Thank you. Again, if I could jump in, I don't think we recommend we just put them all on the
auction block because um we you know we acknowledge that people have put money into these um relying on this license agreement. So at the very least we'd need to give people an annual notice and then the board would have to kind of
take into consideration I think sort of the individual financial uh expenditures towards those but but if that's the board the way the board wants to go that's what we're trying to get from the board we can flesh that out. Madam Chair, this is
another interesting point up u as far as the discussion on ownership and leasing. When individuals have leased and enhanced the
property, generally when somebody is leasing property, the enhancement is upon the owner of the property. So here the individuals who leased the
property for a little adjustments with some advancements. So again while I see it's fair um they improved a rental property. They did that on their own accord for their own indulgence and
enjoyment and uh and use. Uh I don't I don't believe we we monitored any of this because just recently we talked about uh permitting and inspections and setting rates and that's what was just
done earlier this year. Uh but in discussion when individuals are improving the property when you lose the option
uh you leave it as it stands. Correct. Do you want to address that? I I can address that. So the the license agreements do address that and it does say that any any improvement that's made does become property of the county at the termination of the licor lease
agreement. So that that is what that says. The particular document we are working with as far as the the case law and stuff generally yes if there's improvements that are done um it does stay with the owner when you're dealing
with landlord landlord tenant. Um, so yes, generally it does. I could understand a concern if we're uh looking at that option because quite frankly, this can't be turned into a a public
marina. There's no abundance of parking. There's no space, trailer, uh, lodging. Uh there's there's no accommodations that you would have in
any other dock or ramp area uh in in the county or within the municipal jurisdictions. Uh with that it but therefore it exists. Now at at this point
the the the risk and the discussion of taking away from an individual that has enhanced the property is I I think the the lease actually addresses it now that
you've brought that forward. So if it if that covers the issue, I don't think that anybody has any argument. I kind of like the idea of uh allowing all the leases to work and
expire u as for the rest of the year. Uh and then moving forward with putting up all of the docks for
public consumption by competitive bidding. I think the public will benefit far more than that and they could be individually owned at and I I think that people would
uh want to maintain the property and bid for the property uh and and you know with limitations but I I think we should be out of the the rental business. Mr. Chair, I have a question.
Certainly. Um, can we just take them out and have it be open space and nobody leases anything and there's no docks there to argue about? We could as long as we give them the three months um the three months notice to terminate and we can technically go in because it is our
property and we could just remove them and have nothing there. Yes, that is another option. I apologize. I missed that option. Thank you, Commissioner. Well, I'm in favor of either that option or auctioning them to the highest bidder. I just this is a five-year conversation that keeps spinning around
and nobody's there is absolutely no way to make everybody happy on this situation. So, I'd rather us not be in the situation. Those are my those are my two votes. I I just want to note really quickly that if if it was to be auctioned um if it was to be sold today
or tomorrow, I'm just going to put a random date out there that then it would be the new owner would step into our shoes and they would then be the landlord for all intents and purposes and then they would have to deal with the lease or we would wait and we could give them all the three months notice,
terminate them all and then auction them all off. I mean, I suppose whoever won the auction would be the landlord of all of them because it's one giant parcel, which I have no preference on that. Just either remove all the docks and we don't
have a dock situation or let whoever wants them purchase them and be done with it. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I I want to give a chance. I would see a few people that we again I think we've
proven what I said when I started this conversation is that yes, we're spending way too much time. Staff is spending way too much time on this. We don't need to be in the marina businesses at all.
Um yeah, I guess that could be a scenario. what Commissioner Adams stated that you know either that or we abandon or we or we sell it. I think I think I think those are the only options we have. We don't need to be doing this
and people have an investment in there and all that stuff. All that stuff's to figure leases are different. That proves my point. We need to get out of this. We need to find a way to turn it over to them or sell it or move everybody out
the other. Taking everything in consideration and uh I I I don't agree. Just let's just tear it down. I don't either, but it's just an option. Leave it as a leave it as a nice piece of vacant land that we will eventually auction off anyway
or give away. Um and I think then we eradicate all elements of of public benefit. Um I I don't know if that is the best solution code. Uh I do uh favor
us looking at if we have everything right assigned with clear legal addresses to be able to allow all of the uh leases to expire
to term. And at that point giving the opportunity I did hear another commissioner mention well they should have the first right of refusal u or I think you you mentioned that too. Uh, I believe that that is taken into
consideration if we were to offer it for auction that if we could place or bid, we could place those elements into a real property scenario so that it can be
done uh but giving the giving the benefit to those who exist. I I I I don't want to take away from anyone
who has invested as you said but that as that any enhancement was at at the peril of loss if they were to lose the dock or get rid of their boat and they don't longer need a dock. Well, they made all
these improvements and put some electrical lines in and whatever and a hose bib and uh red decked it. Well, that's all good and fine, but uh when you leave the place, you leave it the
way you left it and not anything else. So, there's going to be difference in prices and bidding. Um, but I that's the one I favor because it is a very
uh it it is a beneficial resource. And to take it away, I I don't know. With that, I would like to hear from some of those in in attendance, the public who have taken the time, whether
they be the doc lees or they are here because they want to have input. I think we should hear from the public at this point. Thank you, commissioners. And um when we do have another minute, I just want to note
that I did do um the research on option contracts and rights of first refusal. Um and in this case, there was not one in place. So if that's something the board is asking to do, that would be something that was be doing gratuitous gratuitously is to give them that person
a right of first refusal because they did not qualify for that nor have that under here. So that would be something that would be graciously given. I just want that for the record before um there's an assumption that it's automatic. So, okay. So, right of first refusal would exist. Uh we do have a
challenge, correct? But you do have I'm sorry. Right of first refusal could exist. Yes, if you choose to offer. Yes, sir. That's what all I was trying to say. But it doesn't exist now. No. No, ma'am. They do not have an option of contract or a right of first refusal for purchase. There is no such contract as
in existence. And there's been no public benefit for decades. So they've already had a private benefit from public property for decades. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Before we go back to council, is is
there anyone that wishes to uh have input in this matter? Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of commissioners. Barry Seagull. I'm here specifically been retained with Lillian Ellias, Jennifer Davidson, uh Joel Rosemell, but they're owners in the
property, dock owners right now or doc users right now in the property. Um but they and there there's a number of members here that will speak. Um but what I say I believe is going to be pretty much consensus of those that have the interest in the docks as we speak.
Um and the short version of what I'm about to say is that Commissioner Man is 100% correct. Let me explain to you how I think we get to that point. This is a very unprecedented situation. As lawyers, we love to steal from things that have happened in the
past. We steal documents. We look at cases and gives us answers. I do not have that here. This is a very unique situation the way this is created. I don't know that there's precedent for this anywhere, certainly in the state of Florida, for what is going on here. This property originally could
just have easily been golf course. what is now Country Club Point with roads, houses, and most importantly canals was a field. It was no different than the 10th Fairway across the canal from it. It was dug out by the developer who then platted this subdivision into several
different sections. This being plat number one in Country Club Point. In doing so, of course, established lots, established rightway, and established canals there. Given that this was done in 1957, we do things a lot differently
now with our platting. There is no specific dedication to the county of the road, but there is some dedication language and and it's pretty funny. Mr. Pra and I go back and forth trying to even just be able to read the plat. It's almost impossible to read all of the plat at this point. But what we're seeing on there is at best the roadway
was platted to was dedicated to the county or the county by virtue of its ma management has taken over the roadway. I don't think there's any issue as to that as to the roadway. But we're not talking about the roadway here today. What we're talking about is the area between the roadway and the canal. And the canal is
platted out on the plat very specifically and then one half of it or almost one half of it to this plat and then to the adjoining plat has the remainder of the canal. That is what we are talking about today is who has the rights there. Whether it's a repairarian right, whether it's a ownership right to
that property. When you talk about selling that or leasing that or licensing that, you're not going to be able to come to me and tell me how you own it to sell it in the first place or how you're going to be able to go to the public or go out to anyone and say,
"We're selling this to you by virtue of an auction, which is again the first reason why Mr. or Commissioner Earman is 100% right, is that what the county needs to do is get out of this business and abandon any right that's there. Now, the county is not sitting here providing
some kind of warranty of title or or even some kind of appearance of ownership of that property that the county does not own. You can abandon it to, for example, an association and the owners in that in the community now are
willing to and we've already started that process to create either a dock owner association. There's never been a homeowner association as long as I know in the 50 odd years that Country Club Point has been there. The county graciously jumped into the situation much like a parent and said, "We've got
this canal here. We have questionable repairing rights. We have homeowners a block over that need access to the dock." And what this the county did at the time because no one else was in that central position of authority to delve out how these canals would be used and
more specifically how these docks would be established amongst the homeowners. The county did an excellent job for a number of decades doing this because there was no one else to do it. Well, like a parent with their children, these children have grown up and now we have a situation where we can understand it's been
developed out. We have 20 docks in there. The county has not spent a penny developing any of these docks. If the county even owns that property, they own grass. This the all the improvements have done been done by the home by the by the dock users. And I respect what
you're saying about the lease. This isn't a tea hanger that the countyy's leasing and someone puts in shelves and cabinet. These are parts and parcel of these people's homes. This is part of their property. And if you want to talk about the public benefit that comes from these, go price one of these houses on
the market with a dock and then go price it on the open market without a dock and you tell me which one is going to sell for more. And then when your property appraiser comes to establish the annual tax assessment on these properties based
on with a dock access without dock without a dock access you tell me how much more money the county has made in 50 years that these properties have been benefited from the docks. That is where the revenue source is here. This is not a revenue center for Indian River
County. This is I I I understand that the county has been putting labor and manh hours into it and does need to recover that in the form of some kind of license fee if the county were to stay in in this business. To enter into a rental for fair market value and make
this a revenue center is is is unjust, especially given that the county lucked into this property at best that they're not the the county didn't buy this property. the county has been was in the right place at the right time at the best place possible scenario. Does it make sense to turn this into a revenue
center and basically extra tax your citizens that own the property there that are paying an increased property value t based tax assessment anyway. And so the reason I'm here besides to tell you the chairman is correct is to let
you know that the own property owners in there are willing to do a number of different things to accommodate the various avenues that Mrs. Praau has identified. I think the best answer is to abandon that area to an association
who will then take over the role of what the county has been doing. Get the county out of this business. You don't need to be in it. you've got enough things. You're right. 50 years ago, it was a much smaller county. We had time. You don't have that manhour. You don't have the need to spend labor and time on
that. Abandon this to an association. Um, an association can pay for it, but bear in mind what is the fair market value to this docks. First and foremost, most an most voters will tell you it's it's mediocre dock access at mediocre water access at bass. It's shallow. It's
subject to uh great tidal influence. You've got to go underneath the canal bridge at uh Indian River Boulevard. It's not the world's best canal. It is not the same as being on the other side of the inter coastal waterway. There are no places to park a
trailer. There are no public areas for um for anyone to go to the bathroom. You can't even park your car to take the cooler out to load up your boat to go boating. It only works if you live on this street, can take and use your boating access from your properties. And
so this is for the for lack of a better word really something that is available to these homeowners and these homeowners only. And so we ask that you somewhat maintain the status quo in that let them continue on as they've done. They've bought properties in reliance on what the
county has provided and proposed for all these many decades. I think the county has been very gracious. I think the county has done a good job. I think the county is done. And so we will provide a means to transfer this property or abandon this property and this dock situation over to the homeowners. Um,
and I think you're going to hear from a number of them. And bear in mind, these are these are our citizens. These aren't just normal tenants. These are people and these are their homes and this has been very valuable to them and I think you'll you'll gather that from them and I appreciate your time today. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may just briefly Yeah. My name is Bruce Bquette and I'm not here as an attorney, but as an as a neighbor, I agree with everything that Barry just said and and I just want to offer my services. I'm happy to cooperate with Barry to form a dock owners association uh to take over this
responsibility. I've done it before and I'm happy to to do it again. And anyway, just letting you know that I'd like to help do that again. Counselor, what do you offer again? Uh I I offer to help. I've prepared doc owner
association documents before and created associations and and as a neighbor I think Barry offered the best solution and I'm happy to help create that doc owners association and work out details with the county because I think that is the best solution for this situation. You have a unique situation. You can't
turn this into a public marina no matter how hard you try. And if you do, you're going to have more of a headache than you think when people try to park their cars on private on these streets and leave their cars there while they load up boats. That's never going to work. But turning it over to a dock owners association comprised of these homeowners makes a lot of sense and I'm
happy to help do that. I think that I just anyway I want to support what Barry said and offer my services to help. That's it. Thank you council. Can you use this mic or go to the next? Good morning, sir. It's your choice. Okay. They're your microphones. Thanks for seeing us today. I'm here
with the president we of our association which is the uh Riverboat Club and we live on 95th Street in Sebastian. And your your name? My name is Charles King. I'm a resident there. Thank you, sir.
Um, I'd like to address a couple things in in particular to what this gentleman said about increased property values and how the county has benefited in the past on the sale prices of our homes in our community. And to say that the county
hasn't really uh benefited from the dock situation, I I would take exception to that because our our property values pay the county so we can have a place for our boats.
My wife was a secretary uh and handled the finances for Riverbolt Club. And we were in negotiations and trying to get the county to uh let us pay
uh what was agreed upon. We wanted to be on the record to saying that we have tried to pay the county under the lease agreement and we have not had that check cashed. We wanted to make sure
that we are in compliance with the existing agreement in place. Um we have a unique situation. We already have 20 homes in our homeowners association and we've pretty much handled the internal affairs of our dock
maintenance. Uh as a community, our homeowners association in the covenants uh gives access to everyone that has a property in our development access to the public dock.
Uh there are people who do not own or do not convey ownership of the particular dock, but it's open to our complete street as a benefit under the uh
covenants of our homeowners association. It's important for us as homeowners to maintain our relationship with the county under the agreement that is here. We certainly accept the
county's attempt to remain in compliance with state statutes. We just want to make sure that our voice is heard. We have an HOA. We already have a board that
oversees the use of that dock area. There is no parking along that street for anything for anyone who would open that up to a public bid uh because it can't be sold because there would be a traffic problem.
And I wanted to voice that opinion and everybody that has and all of our stakeholders in the entire community has access to our dockage and the common area that's enjoyed by all of our
residents. We do try to maintain security there. We are carrying a million dollars of insurance every year to hold harmless the the county. We just would want to
aid you in making a decision based on our particular situation. It might be completely different than other stakeholders in the community or in the county. Ours is fairly unique. It's important for us to help you
resolve your issue and we are open to anything that you might offer for resolution. But it's important for for you folks to know that if you were to try to do a fair market assessment and to sell the
property, there is no way that it could be conveyed to any other person other than our homeowners association because there is zero parking for anything to be opened up and bought by another entity other than the homeowners. So anyway, I
appreciate your consideration. We have a very unique situation that might be completely different from another community, but we still have the same roadblock and helping you resolve the issue to become compliant with the
state's mandates. We would love to get this resolved, but our situation might be different and it's we are very unique and I think it's going to take some time if you wanted to do any fear of market assessment or anything like that to hear what is
important to us as a HOA and how it would affect our quality of life if you were to open it up to the public to buy that property. That's our major concern. We
want to help you, but we have issues. Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate your input and then for uh the public that um you're representing a a whole
different uh scenario and it it may or may not be applicable to the Kota docks. I appreciate it. It sounds like you're running a tight ship. uh forgive the expression, but that's
also more likely why we were in this situation for the past 35 years because there wasn't an element like yourself that was willing to go forward and the decision makers at the time went in a
different direction. Uh that's what we'll hopefully begin the process of resolving today. Thank you. for your input. Yes, sir. Hi, my name is Bob Webster again. River Boat Club on 95th Street. Um, as Chuck said, yeah, we have
20 houses in our neighborhood. Um, nine homes are not on the canal and they all have been assigned by our developer a space over there. And their homes, four fourbedroom homes are selling for
800,000. I think maybe one one for 870. And the reason they're selling for that is because they have a slip down the street. I would venture to say those houses would be worth 500,000. So I agree with the attorney that the county is gaining some income
from that. Another thing are we have you we have one lease for our whole community and what we've been doing every five years we've been coming into the county and getting a new rate for our lease. So, we've been updating that
as per our agreement with the county. Um, as far as maintenance costs and all that, we've we do all that as homeowners. You're not having to send any of your road and bridges or construction people over here to do
anything. Um, I just want to say for the last 25 years, we've done everything we were supposed to do for our lease agreement. And I just wanted you to take that all in consideration and that's why we bought there because of the dock space
and then to just take it away from us really doesn't seem fair. Um and I hope you take that in consideration. Thank you for your input. I once again your location is not in in play today or even being able to discuss it. It is
quite refreshing to hear that you have such an organization that uh again is a tight ship apparently because it's working right but thank you for your input. Thank you. If I may, Mr. Chair, um I believe I understand why riverboat
club I myself have been in contact with the riverboat club um president of their association. Um, I did not know they were in existence until literally right before I contacted the riverboat club association president um and realized that they are similar and have the same
exact lease language as that is those the Kolkata docks. So I did reach out to them and say that they would need to be in order to be in compliance that I would be coming to you at a future date to seek whatever it is direction you give basically similar to this is probably what's going to happen to them
because it is the same language and it does it is the same or very similar issues. While I do understand that it's one association versus different people um it it essentially runs with the same terms. The only difference is is they go up I think slightly each year maybe
around I think the last increase was $17. They have come in and asked to pay the dock license. I asked them to kindly hold off until I receive instruction from y'all because I don't want them to waste their money um or throw something
down the drain. So I have spoken to the president and I have spoken to another member who came in last week. So um this is not my first hearing from them and I asked them to um start discussing amongst themselves about the possible outcomes of today's hearing so they can prepare themselves for whatever should
come next. Um but yes, so that is I have been in communication with them contrary to what was indicated today and we're first hearing this now but I don't know has anybody heard this before uh about correlation between the other this other
association first for me. No no sir and I apologize. I want to see why they're here today. Yes. And I want it was you've just made it crystal clear. Yes sir. I want did not want to have the board to have to deal with both of them
or two different associations at the same time. I was attempting to make it smoother. Um but it appears that um they have decided to speak and and that's fine. It's just however you all want to deal. But I wanted to at least let you know that that is why they are the same
leases. You you placed their agreement and it was the lease about the same time? Yes, sir. And it's the same exact language. And it this could it be argued that
since it's assigned to uh an HOA governance that it this would be a broader scale into a public benefit uh more so than individuals?
I I don't believe so, sir, because in the case law I read, even for example, on other items when they were giving the county or the city in those cases were paving in those cases private roads, that's still a private benefit because it only benefits those private citizens. It's not open to the general public.
Therefore, it's not a public benefit. So today's direction and [Music] decision will directly affect them depending upon the treatment process
possibly sir I I believe that they're factually different however and the way that they have an HOA and these other ones are individually and although abandonment has been suggested if we were to do that would
that affect ffect their relationship? No sir, because I would be bringing their item back for consideration for their specific item because they are one association versus this particular Kolkata doc because they
are two different items. I didn't want to mix both items and bring them here today as they both have factual distinctions that I think make them different in certain instances. So there there's more than a reasonable likelihood that they'll be back here in
in this room as we are today. Yes sir. However, I believe and as I have relayed to the president that theirs may be in fact easier because they have the association um because it takes away an extra step that the people at Kolkata wouldn't you
don't have to do. They have to form an association as has been suggested by their by council. By the flavor of my questions, you could uh it it is guaranteed that this is the first we're hearing of this. Yes, sir.
When did you learn about this? You said that it was through contact. How? Probably a month ago, two months ago maybe. We had I have a question. I I I thought there was one and one
only. And I mean, did did anybody else have any other understanding? Uh I have a question. Joe, I'm not seeing anything anybody go like this.
Yes, ma'am. I We were told I was told this was one and one only and I I just want that clear and and again, sir, that I appreciated that. Sure. You came up to to discuss it. I
can tell you how you how this all how we got involved. I actually came in um after our April board meeting and wanted to see if it was time for us to renew our lease, which is supposed to be every five
years. And um I went up to I was brought to the attorney's office up there and I met with a woman, I don't have her name right now, and she said, "Okay, um I have to get back to you with what what your new lease is going to be for the next five years." And I said,
"Okay." So I didn't hear anything. I went away for a few weeks. When I came back, I contacted her and that's when I was told by the attorney to reach out to her um because this things were going on here as far as
the county even wanting to renew the leases. So, that's how we got involved with this because I went in to just renew our lease and was told, "Wait, you you know, you can't do it right now. We're trying to figure out what's happening. Does that help or hurt?
Answer your question. Well, and please forgive me because uh pri prior to this meeting, I I I was we was walking in, we met and I I thought that was very valiant of you to come in to support
whatever decision is being made. We had a very uh brief contact and I I thought that was admirable even during this meeting. I still thought it was admirable. Now I think we all realize
that you're in the arena, right? It's it is your game. But I will say I do appreciate maybe not today, but real soon. I do appreciate the um attorneys letting us know that, hey, it's important for you to be involved with this because it's
affecting your community. So I I appreciate that. Um I didn't plan on coming up. I thought we were just going to sit and listen. And I didn't even know if there was going to be public comments. I'm not used to doing this, but we do appreciate that we were given like, hey, show up to see what might
happen with your community. I'm I'm sure glad you did, sir. Um I I'll be clear because uh we did not have this information and if you had not spoken which would have triggered uh about the explanation I don't think any of us
would have known that this situation. Commissioner Mos is that correct? That's correct. Sir Commissioner Adams I have a question. Did No, but did did No. As far as did were you aware of the other was I aware like community? I was not
aware of this community and I was not Joe I wasn't aware but I don't really see how this applies right now because they have an HOA. Well and quite frankly I'm not surprised there's probably other ones out there. There's probably other ones. I mean if they're only getting a
lease every 5 years. Everybody that's here has not been here 5 years and these things were all apparently very like cloak and dagger hush hush whatever. I mean they're all they're all strange and specific to themselves. So it's not surprising to me that there's another
one. Do I feel like this is different than the other? I mean technically it's the same concept but the situation and the setup is completely different. So I can see how perhaps there would be different ways of dealing with those in the future. But I have a question and
there is an HOA that seems to apply the rules and the access to the entire tea of the community equally. I think some of the concerns that I've heard from other residents in the Kolkata docks area is that if there's this HOA that's
created which has been floated around that it's very exclusive and then everybody else in the community never gets an opportunity like right now there's a wait list like people might not be rolling off the wait list but there's some hope in the future the HOA and that access the way it's been
presented to some members of the community they feel like they will absolutely absolutely never have an opportunity to even put a slip in where it sounds like in this community that's not the case. But my specific question and so those are my concerns with you know just disposing at will
to an HOA that's basically brand new with no kind of real clear-cut way of figuring out how they're going to fund anything be fair or whatnot. I just feel like in that situation it's easier to auction and let it be. in this
situation, maybe it's easier and more beneficial to abandon it to the HOA who has a demonstrated history. But my specific question is, we've heard a lot in both cases about you can't just auction it off to the public because there's no
parking and there's no access, but I've been involved in in property auctions where you can put you basically clearly say that in the purchase documents or the description or you can put in parameters of a minimum bid. You can put
all these things in. So, if we were to auction it, um, could we not state in that auction material or disposal documentation that there is no access, there is no parking, and you would be
buying it at your own danger or that's not the right word, but I can't think of my words this morning. So, yeah. Peril. Peril. Thank you. Your own peril. Thank you. You finished your coffee. I haven't finished mine. Yes. There's no guarantee they
will actually read it, but yes. So, you know, if somebody from the public came and purchased it and then couldn't park there, I mean, that's on them, not on us. I'm just saying I just I think it's we're down this huge rabbit hole with no solution. And I've like to get to a
point where we have a solution to move forward before commission is suggestion received. But they have an HOA that is willing, able, uh, and and run like a
business. And if we to compare, let's remind how we began as we started the meeting, I said, how did we
get here? And it was some 35 years ago. an HOA that didn't want any obligation to it is what I'm made to understand. So they did not have everything that these
gentlemen are saying. So what in a perfect world if they did have that? if they did have an an operationally sound HOA that will gain governance and then they can operate the
parcel in property with the same understanding. And I I I realize there are some folks that have maybe more than one one dock and there are a list of
people who want docks. Um, you know, maybe they could manage that and maybe we will not be in the the dock owning business and we could do the
same thing that these gentlemen are doing and obviously if we're just hearing about it then that means that this thing has existed seamlessly and we have heard about the Kolkata docks
for many years in different ways, in different environments with different solutions, with different suggestions that uh again, you know, we ought to do this, we ought to do that. And as you stated, um the previous county attorney
was addressing it in different ways. And it's we need to put this to rest. And in order to put it to rest, maybe if if there was the same agreement that could be made with the existing HOA,
uh maybe we could be out of the business and everybody could be happy and they can have their their docks and we can still have the same inspection ability that we've established and we can still have the same permitting and
understanding and make sure that they're safe and secure. cure uh per our code and uh people can have a happy little place for their boat as they've had for so many years. If if I may um Mr. Chair,
the reason I mean yes it's fabulous that they can run it smoothly but that's not the reason why it came to the attention. The problem is is the lease agreement the language is exactly the same as that as Kolkata. It's just the only distinction is there's multiple for
Kolkata and there's one for this and the problem is the lease itself. Again, there is no public benefit. So that is the problem coming up. There's, you know, we're look I'm looking at constitutional issues. I'm looking at those issues and that's what I'm trying
to resolve. And so that's the reason why I had called uh the president was to let him know, hey, here's these issues. I would like us to be able to work them out. No, the president I would I would like for us the county to be able to work them out. Um and so that way this
is why I'm coming forward and bringing this one item to your attention so that then once that's done we can deal with the next. I apologize. I was not thinking that you would want to deal with all of the items because they are different in their own way and that they
have their HOA. It may be easier as I stated to deal with them than it would be to deal with Kolkata. Um, so I do apologize for that, but yes, they are the same. So just to give Kolkata the same lease that they have wouldn't fix it because they already have the same
lease. The lease is the problem. There is no public benefit. The argument that I keep hearing that paying taxes is the public benefit. I don't see any case law on that. The case law that I do see is leasing out property to people for less than a fair market value or selling
things to people for less than a fair market value gives basically a private favor and it's not a public benefit. Mr. Chairman, W um I appreciate the other gentleman being here about this. It's good to know
that there's another one out there and that it seems to work fine, but we need to concentrate on the on what we have at hand and come up with a path for you all to investigate as to what we need to do
that works better for this. My question to you, and I think Mr. Seagull touched on it, is what do we have to sell? Do we really have something there to sell? And Barry, I would ask maybe ask you to reiterate what you said so I can hear
what Miss Praau has to say after what you have to say. Do we have anything truly to sell? I believe so. And as I've stated, I have looked at the deed of every single one of the people that have a dock in Kolkata and not one of them mentions the actual land, the actual
grass underneath that is what the what the l or the ley is the lency or the lease is over. Um so yes, we would have something to sell. And what would that be? The repairarian rights, the grass or
the riparian rights under it. I know I discussed this briefly with Mr. seagull yesterday and it was perhaps even if it's not the dock itself technically the dock does come back to us under landlord license whatever law but even if we were
to sell it based off the market value of just the grass itself I don't know what that is um that's what it would be would be sold as we would need to find out whatever that fair market value is but that's what we have Mr. Would that apply to the easement and
roadway access in the front? So there would be two options. You could abandon the entire roadway and abandon everything or we can attempt a partial abandonment for just that because yes, we do take care of the roadway that is there right now. That that is that a local access street? It's a public road,
sir. Yes, a public road. Yes, sir. Miss right that's may I say something and it may be pertinent um I actually think that this cleanest solution is to simply abandon it. Um apparently now
there's some question as to whether we have anything to convey but that way we're not getting into any these private property fights. I I agree with you. I just I mean that way apparently we get give you what you want which is we just walk away because and that way we're not
selling something that someone contends they put individual money into and we don't have to get into whether there's any interests of adjacent owners or the original subdivider. I think just walking abandoning it it is just
cleanest even though you know and I'm curious what you think about that Mr. Seagull too. Um, the probably the simplest thing I could say, it's probably the most lawyerly thing I can say is um, when you hear someone say the right answer, shut up. Um, I I'm not going to do any better than that. I I
agree with your county attorney. I I just want to point out that if we do abandon though, the dock association that I've heard of is just of the dock owners. That will not work pursuant to Florida statute 336.125. We can abandon to a homeowners association. And there is a list of
rules on how that homeowners association is to be found and produced. So I just want to make that clear. Who would we be abandoning to on Kolkata? I mean to each individual property owner. I I just there's and then what happens to the weight list and what happens to all this
other stuff? It's just I don't know. Can we take a break? I'm like yes. If if if I could add add something. This is getting riveting. Yeah. Exactly. is that I I think that those are the answers that once we have some guidance
that this is but we can't give guidance. Well, I mean that's like every guidance we've tried to give, we've given seven guidances and it's like getting picked apart like to get into the room. This isn't this much ping pong. This I don't
think it is ping pong. I think this is chess is we're down to the last few plays, pieces, moves. And now I think that we have an idea what and what the direction is. I think we can definitely solve the rest of those pieces. But now, but now it comes into play concerned about these two gentlemen, too.
So, you know, that was the g the the game changer. I I think I'm going to take the request of of taking a brief recess so that everybody can go have a comfort break and then we can resume this. Okay, that's what we're
going to do. Thank you. situation. Um, we have doc number five. We um appreciate all the time that's gone into your efforts into this. Um, we know, you know, I I can't even imagine. Imagine, believe it or not, our doc, I
believe, is the one that started all this because it was the newest dock built. Um there wasn't a doc that I I'm aware of that when we purchased our home. Um but our lease went back 30 something years. Um Jeff Asher who was my principal here at the high school in 2001 was the one that I understand to
originally have had our lease and paid for a lease that there was no dock on for you know the entirety of his home that he lived at our home and then the next homeowner purchased the dock lease sorry without understanding and kept that in good standing until the
homeowner I purchased it from TP Kennedy built the the dock and I understand that that seemed to have upset some of the people on this waiting list that felt that my doc was the one that pushed ahead of everyone else when in fact it didn't. The lease was in good standing
for 25 or 30 years with zero doc. There was never anything there to my understanding. Um and for that I'm sorry that this created as much of this problem because obviously it went on for 35 years and there was never a problem. So I just wanted to kind of clear the air on what we believe started this
whole process and it was not our intention. and we bought a home with the understanding that the doc was assigned to the home that we could purchase that lease and continue that lease. Um, and we've improved it from that point that we've, you know, purchased the home um,
and kept it in good standing. So, I just kind of want to clear the air on that and that we've been more than willing to help with whatever direction you guys want to go um, to make a permanent solution um, with this. Sir, just your understanding is that you
you leased Earth, not the dock. Yes, sir. Yeah. We we purchased the home, the dock was there. Um, but what I was going with that is my home seemed to be the catalyst that that started this entire
process in 2021. And for that, I had nothing to do with, didn't know um about when it started. That's and that's what I understand afterwards. to understand the dirty looks and understand why people look at my dock differently because I was the black sheep of it. So
for that part of it, what you built the dock with permits? Yes, sir. Everything was property. Yes, sir. And then we improved from there. Permitted. Thank you. Yes, sir. Thank you for your time.
Oh, now I'm going to take that brief recess. Good afternoon. And the meeting will now be called back to order. Well, it's not quite there yet, but I'm sure we're going to get there. Uh with that uh we were having the uh discussion before the
recess and uh it has taken so many turns and I still have additional questions as well and if anybody else from the public has additional questions or input as we learned that input has changed the
composition of this discussion. Uh we would encourage that. Uh, and there are two podiums, but councilors. Oh, please. Thank you, commissioners. Uh, Mr. Chair, commissioners, my name is Charlotte
Berley. I am a resident of Country Club Point. Uh, I'm at 3033 GU Drive. I do not um have a dock or I'm not one of the dock lease owners. And I purchased my home, my husband and I
purchased our home in 2019 knowing it didn't come with a dock and we were okay with that because this is where we wanted to live. Um, if it's worth uh any uh importance to you, my opinion is the the waiting
list was a courtesy and we knew going into this that there was a likely a very good chance we wouldn't obtain a dock lease and we were fine with that. So to as a solution, I know it's been
suggested here, it it is my opinion to abandon, let the dock lease start the dock association because there may be an opportunity for us who are still interested in having a dock or leasing a dock could enter into that doc
association if one comes up. So, it might solve both issues of those on the waiting list that have concerns and it also may um solve the issue of the the current owner, excuse me, lease owners at this time. That's my opinion. I just
want to give you the perspective of someone that doesn't have a dock but loves the neighborhood and wants everyone to be happy in this neighborhood because that's really where I stand. Thank you. Thank you, Miss B. Uh you
know many years back um I was talking about what it is to be up on the dis and what h what it is to have the research and the intent and the decision-making
process to begin to envelop. And uh one interesting thing came out. Uh you never know. You can't be committed into a a hard decision without knowing
all the facts. And sometimes during a meeting, new and unusual information will come into play. Maybe I'm calling back to my previous career. You never know what the evidence is going to roll out. Thank Thank you, counselor. Thank
you, gentlemen. Uh when when that happens, I I believe we have a different approach to be considered and I believe that we have different information to be digested and
evaluated at this point. Um again I briefly spoke with counselor as well and we're looking at the the input that was suggested where now
somebody who came in concern might be in in the arena as we say of consideration based upon the decision today. and looking at the the lawfulness, the legality of
abandonment as opposed to a assignment back. We have to realize that we were more or less for lack of a better term gifted this property, foisted this property and a decision was made to
operate it and an informal list was made if somebody wanted to be part of the process. A lot of things happened in a casual sense in different times and now
learning that there are others and now they might be considered or they might be in question. The constitutionality, the legality of us operating in a certain
path has now been changed. So, if that's the case, um I'd like to call uh counselor up once again. Uh as council was looking for direction and many suggestions were made,
uh I'd like to ask the the counselor a couple of questions if pleases the board. When when we earlier discussed this uh throughout the past several
conversations um some of the information was not known. Now it is has been apparent or made apparent. If that's the case, uh, if we were to abandon the property,
could we regift it back to an organization collectively the same way as the other we've identified one, one has
selfidentified. Now, is there more? Is there others that we need to be concerned about? And if so, could we research that before directing a decision or pathway to take this?
Um, give me one second because again, we discussed you said that we had talked about uh the land itself and now we're talking about repairarian rights and now we're talking about the last gentleman spoke said, you know, he he built the
dock. Um again uh it it conformed to the practices at the time and it's a new dock and he's made uh an investment. There are others that have made some maintenance investments. There are some that have not. Again, that's generally
the obligation of the land owner and not of the uh person leasing the the property. So this has all sorts of uh avenues to travel. So my question is
could we look at the possibility of a mirror to that process if we had an organization an HOA that would operate this and then
everybody is is held uh safe in their own domain. So, as far as um an HOA and this being gifted back to an HOA, um I'm not sure as far as land, but I can tell you that there is an AGO opinion from 2004 that
says donations, regardless of the source, received by the county and deposited into the county general revenue account, are considered to be county funds, the expedential of which must serve a public purpose. I'm not sure if it would read the same for land. So, I can look and see if there is
anything that's in that same vine. Um, but to my knowledge, I I don't know because I have not looked at that. Um, that is why the abandonment because a gift idea was never brought to my attention. Um, the abandonment seemed to be the cleanest way because it in effect
does the same exact thing as gifting it back to them because abandoning it, it doesn't charge them anything. they the right of way is effectively abandoned back to whoever it was um which we are able to do but if that is the direction I will take that direction and do the
research well I mean if that's the case that decision would have to be made uh after uh the valuable res uh search that you believe is necessary to make that decision and uh this thing has gone on
for some 35 years. Uh past four years, it's had some magnifying glass on it. And uh for a variety of reasons, there are still some unanswered questions. And in order for us to get to a solution
code to this dilemma, uh I I think we would need to know that. Uh I don't want to know how my colleagues feel on that because it's not just saying all right let's put this off for another four weeks but I believe that if we do that
research and that comes to uh an admirable solution and uh folks still have can still have their vessels. Is that the right term there Joe? the their vessels uh placed at these
dock facilities and we can still ensure that they are uh well in public safety. That might be a possible solution. Thoughts? Um but then you're forfeiting the revenue that could be generated by a
sale, you know, if we if we were to sell them at the highest price. I mean, I I thought we're trying to make up for decades of no public benefit. There's been no public benefit, which has been defined as revenue for decades. So,
we're trying to write the ship and have revenue that would be a public benefit. That's for everyone. Okay? I mean, look, nobody built the Panama Canal over there. They it was almost a 99-year lease for some of them, but you
know, there wasn't that kind of investment. Um for me, no. In fact, I I'll make a motion right now. Sell the docks at the highest price. This is a discussion. Yeah, we we we're having a discussion. We're we're not can't make a motion
during a discussion. We're not directing. Well, we need something. We need consensus. All right, then. don't agree with abandonment uh for any reason because abandonment is forfeiting revenue and we are trying to
uh write the ship if you will. I'm talking about docks. We're trying to make amends for being remiss for decades in not evidently in not having a public benefit and revenue is a public benefit.
So, no, I'm not in favor of abandonment. Commission Adams, Mr. Chairman, you want me to go vote? I don't I don't know what the question is, M. Commissioner Moss, I I would completely agree with you. That would be the ultimate thing to do and
would be to sell it, get make lots of money in the county, have revenue on it. But if you haven't witnessed what we've been talking about here for the last hour and a half, the the conundrum that that that we can create here by doing
all this, we're gaining money by our county attorney's office not having to spend time on this, by us alleviating this of our time discussion and a million other
things that that I could go on and on. So, as much as I would love to sell it for a million dollars, I think we're just asking for more headache, heartache, and heartbreak for this. I think the county
attorneys recommended it. The the council for the homeowners out there, Mr. Seagull, Mr. Barquette, they've all said that abandonment is is the cleanest and best
way to go and let these folks work it out. We have no business being in the marine mini marina business whatsoever. It takes too much of our time and too much of our efforts. And we have I would tend to agree with Mr.
Sele money virtually collecting taxes on that and maybe there's a way if this is assigned or something. I don't know if it's assigned to the lease agreement or the when somebody buys a home. I don't know how they would want to do it that uh that it
would it would in the long run we would gain money. But as much as I'd love to say I'm with you, I I can't support selling it. I think we need to get out of it totally. I appreciate your comments and
Commissioner Moss's comments, but I just don't think it's as easy as just abandoning it to an organization that doesn't exist. The HOA doesn't exist yet. Correct, Mr. Seagull? So, it's not it doesn't even exist. So, we're talking about abandoning something
to an organization that's going to be formed of the current dock owners. And I'm going to go back to the comment that I keep hearing from other people within the community that that is exclusive to them personally versus the community as
a whole. And you know, to me, the cleanest thing is just to be done with it. Now, if you're going to direct the attorney to look into right-of-way abandonment, we need to look
at the fact that we still need part of that right away for a road. So, you're not going to be abandoning the entirety of the right of way unless we're going to give them the road back, which quite frankly I'd be happy to do at this point after five years of conversations about
it. Would you guys I mean, you want to take the road too and solve all the problems? I'm kidding. But I mean we just keep going down this rabbit hole of abandonment sale this and I'm only talking about Kolkata. I don't even want
to deal with 95th. Maybe the language of those leases are exactly the same. But we're have already adjusted some of that language to begin with in these new leases. And that's part of the problem is that these leases never
expire. So they're not coming back up. And that was the problem that brought all this. I mean, the gentleman said that he takes blame, but really that's not what brought this up. What brought this up was that people were on the waiting list and never had an opportunity because the leases were
never expiring. So, they weren't really leases. They were like, you know, gifts in perpetuity. So, that's part of the problem. And if we abandon it to a specific group, unlike 95th, I'm going to go back to that. It's not for the
whole community's benefit. It's for the specific property owners and they have built docks, but again, that's at their discretion. And we auction off property all the time as a county or we offer it
up surplus property for affordable housing. We do RFPs on property. I mean, it's not like we don't make money on property sales. Now, I just want this to be the fastest way possible because I'm really tired of every other month we have a conversation on this with no
direction. Can I address that again? Um, I'd just like to address that, but I can wait. No, please. Well, I I I want to clarify when I said abandonment, I did not say abandon to an organization. I just said abandon, walk away. You can abandon part
of a road if you determine you don't need it and it and it's surplus and it doesn't serve a public purpose. My cons I completely understand the wanting to make you know revenue especially since we've spent years and years kind of draining a lot of staff
time on this. But I'm concerned that if you put it up for bid, then you're going to get a legal challenge from people who are got existing docks who feel like they may have some equitable ownership and then it just never ends. When I said abandon, I meant abandon just like and
then you guys go figure it out private property. Let me just clarify my concern. And I don't care if we make a ton of money on it or we make two cents on it. I I don't care if we're in the negative and it costs us money to get out of this. It's not about the
money to me, but there's got to be a fair process and it's not a fair process just to offer it to a small or to abandon it to a small group of people. We're going to get I mean, the way this is going, it doesn't matter what we do, somebody's going to be mad and there will be a legal challenge. Maybe we just
kiss it up to the courts and let them figure it out. I'm kind of fine with that at this point. to those who have uh lived this for quite some time. uh it it has taken many different directions and uh councelor said something you know I
don't know how we can possibly please all of the doc uh let's not use the word the owners the doc people uh how do we please them and still hold
the public trust for accountability to be good stewards. So now I want to look at uh because I I know council is going to tell me uh that it started in 1990 somewhere around then. Yes sir. Okay. What was the dollar amount that we paid
for the property? None. Zero. Zero. We paid zero. The public paid zero to have this. Basically, this was uh a foisted
obligation. An HOA, a community HOA said, "Hey, we can't handle this. It's getting out of control." It's that's my understanding. Uh we we don't we don't want this. So,
county said, "We'll govern it. We'll take take care of it." Right. And then we uh took possession of the the roadway. We made it an access. And
so how do we sell something that we never bought? So that's why in order to it's no we're not talking about garage sales. just saying uh in in all
realistic I mean the taxpayer did not have any skin in the game to begin with as far as to get a financial benefit from this. Uh this kind of morphed to well you got to pay a permit fee. You
got have to now we're gonna u have a lease. Um, you pay one fee, you pay a different fee depending upon the time you come in. It's all over the chart. So, I I don't even know how we
figure out what a a public price would be because there was none. And if there was none, then why don't we make the solution as
as simple as possible? Again, we hear abandonment. I I don't believe in just all right. Yeah, you figure it out. I I'm not saying that. But if you were to research our ability
so we don't have more affected parties in the process, I think that's a solution. I think that if we had an organization, an HOA, uh, whether it's the property
owners or it's newly established, do we don't we have the the right to be able to do that? And that is a form of abandonment, but it's not abandonment. I
rather use the word assignment because we never paid for the property. The citizens never paid. If they never paid, how do we get the price tag? So, if I may really quickly just I want
to because Commissioner Adams, I want to kind of put your mind at ease at least a little bit with this one. um the association. This is why I made the comment earlier that it would have to be an association pursuant to Florida statute 336.125. That particular homeowners
association has to deal with all the homes in the platted area. It's not just the dock owners. That's why I said a dock owners association would not work. So if they want the abandoned rightaway, they have to have it. It says because the statute's very specific. Um, the
governing body of a county may abandon roads and rightsway dedicated in a recorded residential subdivision plat and simultaneously convey the county's interest in such roads, rightway, and a pertinent drainage facilities to a homeowners association for the subdivision if the following conditions
have been met. And I can tell you it's not just the dock owners. It would be all the homes in that subdivision. So if the concern is how it I mean then it would be up to them once again. But I just want to at least because I know you brought that up a couple times, at least
address that. As far as the assignment, I would have to research that, sir, because I don't know any case law that says anything about assignment other than the AGO opinion that I just read that regardless if it's gratuitous or if it was given for something that the money has to be done for a public
purpose. And I think we have to uh we're compelled to work with legally sufficient AGO opinions, legal opinions, as opposed to looking back at
what I I think a lot of us feel, if I'm wrong, there is some faulty documentation going on here as far as and I don't mean that in an ill way. It's just when times were different, it was it was easy to just say, "All right, yeah, we'll take care of it. We'll do
this. We'll do that." We were far less populated, far less obligation, uh a far different economic times. Uh but I it still it it still holds a larger question of how
could we charge for something that we we never the people of Indian River County never received or wrote a check for. And now we're going to say, "Hey, we can't we can't just do this because you know
there's a price tag. There's a price on everything. this that's I don't think that's the tack to take. I think uh council has to research the ability of uh offering this to an
organization the same way it was offered to us and perhaps I I don't know I you know council seagull uh mentioned that it could be done within hours u I I'm just keep looking at these two
gentlemen thinking And I mean, after hearing what they're doing, why can't that be done? And then we could be done with this and I don't understand how we could be seeking a profit for something
we never invested in. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to offer this as a consensus so we can do what the county attorney's office asked to do. give them some direction to investigate and come back to us with a plan. I would have them look into these
three options. First, in no specific order, abandonment to an HOA/DOC association maybe again and then those residents would have some research
to do to see if that can be done. a straight out abandonment or looking to sell if it's possible to sell the property if we can with a first right of
refusal to dock holders that currently are there. I would give that as just a consensus to say at the county attorney office, go look into this and come back in a month and tell us what you found out. Y Mr. Chair.
Yeah. I I just want to just comment on that for a minute. We're going to sell Are we selling the Earth or the dock? Because the last I don't know if we really know, sir. He built that dock. That's what I mean. I don't know if as
well. I don't know if we really know. That's why I say come back with those three scenarios and maybe we'll find the best one out of it because I don't know if we know what we are selling. We don't. That's what I'm saying. I don't know if we do. That's why I wanted
that's what Barry said. Yeah. And coupled with uh his input and uh council's Let's go with those three. All due respect to Mr. Seagull and I do respect your legal expertise, but of course he's going to say that. I mean,
he's representing the other side. So, I just want to like kind of throw that out there that again, I respect you and I would say the same thing, but of course, he's going to say that we don't have anything to sell, whereas our attorneys are saying that that we do.
Obviously, we own something if we're leasing it, but it might be address. I want to clarify if that is the request of the attorney's office, then can I be a little bit specific about how we might get that information back from them? Is
it possible for you guys to prepare this in like a memo form and email it out for us to kind of look over and discuss and then come to you individually with questions prior to it coming back to a discussion? So we can kind of have some
of those nuts and bolts questions answered. And if we're going to talk about abandoning to an organization, can that include the specifics of what that organization would need to look like from a creation and governance
perspective? Uh because there's a lot of conversation about that, but I think we need to understand that apparently it's not just any nonprofit. it's a specific HOA that was created in a specific way. Um, and then if we're talking
about partioning portioning out the right of way, what that looks like on a on, you know, maybe on a map overlay if we're going to keep the road right of way and portion out, you know, the dock and the the canal access just to kind of
be a little bit detailed. And I'd be happy if if we got that in a memo form in like the next month and then maybe schedule this for a conversation after or sooner. You know, I know we have other things going on and we're going into budget, but I think if we can get
that in kind of like a legal memo form, it might be helpful to read through those things instead of having it as like an ever moving conversation. It's hard to keep track of the parameters and specifics of all the different options we're talking about. if that and most
certainly uh commissioner that that that was my intent to have council research that but I like the idea of uh as well as we have a little more communication with this as has been so self-evident.
There's been a couple of re revelations today and I I think that it caught everybody by surprise and I I I think that's uh not very fair to the public to be able to to make a decision on
uh just that premise of oh these guys are here. Oh, there's a change. So I I think we do have to get some more research in
order to make this the right decision. I would like to clarify on that. Is the board then asking that I bring back both of the docks here at the same time or just Kolkata and then separately? I just want to make sure because just do I just want to it's it's continuously brought
up that we have someone else that's involved and I want to make sure that I'm addressing exactly what you all want and I'm not misstepping. Well, but I have argued that they're they're completely different. They're so sound that they have an organization and I'm in great hopes that you're going to come
back to us and say, and I'm waiting for Vice Chairman Ly. I know he's anxious to speak, but I I I want to just let you know that my thought process was to
ensure that that's separate and that they have I know it's been continually discussed, you know, they spoke, but they're part of the revelation. Uh but when you said, "Well,
they are." And I said, "Oh, they so they're in the arena. They're in the game. Uh they don't have to be. Uh like I said, and I said it during the break, the only time I've seen them is in Publix, okay? Shopping. Okay. The
folks from Kolkata we see and hear and have heard and I think we need to fix that without affecting their world if it's possible. Yes, that's my thought. I wasn't bringing them into it so that we have to
do a global resolution so that now there may be and they're identified there may be another one out there. I mean I'm not I'm not really it could be we don't know that. Nobody as Nobody Yeah. And today we found out that they uh have this
identical lease. Nobody knew that before just two hours ago. And that's how long we've been talking about. Mr. Chairman, can I present this as a con as a as a consensus what I presented looking to sell straight up to an HOA with the
question that Commissioner Adams added to it. Yeah. And I I would just like to add one thing. Um and that is this is to be fair to people who have been on the waiting list for years and years and years. Um and this is just a a slight modification. look into um selling the
docks without right of first refusal. We'll see if that's a consensus. I'm finding that in my consent sell the dock straight abandonment abandonment to HOA or dock association and the and and with
the question specific questions that Commissioner Adams asked be answered. Mr. Chair, thank you. First of all, I think the captain said something about u assigning to a dock association. Council just said you can't do that. It's got to
be a property association. So, that's out. Abandoning it completely, as attorney Scheler mentioned, is is chaotic at at best. Uh to say that we would just aband it and walk away uh would really create some some issues. Uh
I would lean more towards assigning uh everything road everything uh to some qualified entity. Uh it would have to be obviously a homeowners association. That would be the easiest
and the cleanest way. And then the association would pay us annually similar to 95th. assume the liability similar to 95th as well as um have that on our advorum
roles which ultimately would be a benefit to us. That's the direction I would go sir. A POA, correct? So I just want to make So it would be abandoning it directly to the PO to the HOA. Correct. Okay. That's right. Or a
POA that doesn't exist as of today. Correct. but may be formed rather quickly. So that this way there is an organization that is governing the
operation and uh they still would be subjected to the safety and security mechanisms as all docks are in in River County. Right. Because that's what I said in mine and I would correct what Commissioner Lur said there. There
isn't, right? There may not be an HOA, but there could be a POA, right? Property owners association. Yes. Um, and whether that could be made possible,
um, I I don't know if there's any dollar amount that could be assigned to it. It would be great if it can just be operated safely and we'll ensure that but it would be a day-to-day operations
uh obligation of a POA and they would ensure they would have to have the appropriate insurance and they would be subjected to uh any building scrutiny that we have that's in existence and
then we have a concern. I don't think we have to be concerned about the weight list as it was said earlier uh that that weight list was a casual weight list. Hey, you bought a house here. You want to dock? Get on the list. I think the
guy down the street, he's going to move and he probably doesn't want to. But what happened was they transferred. They they just Okay, well, it came with my house or whatever. uh it was casually done and it needs to be
decasualized and uh I don't think we have to consider the weight list. I think we need to consider what exists and what our obligation is for the greater good of the citizens of any river county and not for any one
particular interest. And 95th Street, I believe, already has a million dollar liability they have to provide to us. Right. Furthermore, 95th Street's already got the model that we could model this after and we can move forward. If we're out of the business. And before today, did you hear from the
folks at 95th Street? Case in point, it could be a seamless operation. If I may, we can tend to other matters because yes, in a couple of weeks we have the budget rolling. If we abandon, we're completely out of the picture. I just want to make sure that that's other
than them for their permitting and stuff because I'm hearing then we would oversee them and make sure they have insurance and stuff. We wouldn't we would have absolutely nothing to do with them if we abandon it to an HOI. Right. I would assign everything I would assign everything including the road. Okay. Everything. I just want to make sure I'm hearing that all correctly. Okay. Thank
you. Well, that's that's one that's one suggestion. Okay. Yeah. Look at all of them. I think we're all on the same track. So we all know what we're talking about and the parameters because
really having the same conversation five different ways. Thank you. Can we reduce writing? I will be more than happy to. Thank you. Yes. I think today we we brought it from 18,000 ft down to about 6,000 ft. No, not 17 now. I think we did
get somewhere. It's just we're not on the ground yet. But we're getting there. All right. Oh, is there any other further comments? I hope not. So, that's the consensus.
Okay. Thank you. I have my direction. Thank you, counselor. Appreciate this. I don't I I think you're going to be here for a little bit. legal item. Afternoon, right? Good afternoon. My
name is John Wright, 3003 Kolkata Drive. I'm uh one of the newest members of the country club point and the dock list as you refer to it. Um this is this was our 19th move here
to Vero Beach. The first 18 were thanks to the United States Army. After Thanks for coming here and thanks for your service. Thank you. Um after my second retirement 2023, my wife and I uh and much research chose Vero Beach as our retirement community and we found a
beautiful home in Country Club Point. great community, wonderful neighbors, and we bought bought that home and we paid a premium for that home because in the documentation from the real estate company, it said that we had access to
the stock that we could lease the stock. It would turn over to us if we wanted it. So, we paid a premium for that house. About a year later, the lot adjacent to our property became available. And it also had in the real estate documentation access to this
lease for a dock. It sat there for six months and no one bid on it. No one on this list that could have bought that property and gotten a dock bid on that property. We bought that property and we now have
that lease as well. The um dock one that came with that lot was the most in disrepair. Most disrepair. Um it was falling apart. It was literally falling into the water. We
paid a lot of money to rebuild that dock in accordance with the county's requirements. Full full permit, which changed three times during the process. By the way, the process, your process to um to rebuild the stock changed three times while we were trying to get the stock built. So, it took a while, but we
got that dock rebuilt. We paid for it. So, my my point being the what Mr. Ross said earlier that this was his fault or his doc's fault. I disagree. The fault, the problem came from this list. This list should never ex existed. That's
where all these problems started was that list. and it's creating great discontent in the neighborhood quite quite honestly. Um I'd like to address some of the things that the councelor said this public benefit. So when we signed our
lease with the county, we paid $5,000 a fee to the county. This is a new thing just for the the new people so far. I was told that that $5,000 was to offset the lack of public benefit on our street
for our docks. So, who told you that? Pardon me. Who told you that, sir? One of the committee chairman. One of the committee members. Sorry. Okay. Um, the signs on the dock. I I kind of
got the impression that that the council was saying that we we have taken ownership of the docks by putting these signs on private property. The county requires us to have insurance and name you as a a beneficiary or co-owner of
that insurance policy. Excuse me. We have the liability for those docks. There are a number of children that run up and down that street fishing. We can't allow them on the docks. The li our insurance companies will not give us insurance if
we allow these kids to just run on our docks and fish off them. So that's what the signs are for. They're required by the documentation we have with you. The right away that the kids now use is washing away. It's eroding. It's
been eroding for decades and nothing's been done about it. You have a safety issue with that right away. That two feet of grass, well, in some cases, six inches of grass because it's been eroding so much that you should consider in your decision on
what you're going to do with this property. And I'd also I'd also like to add that you're not selling docks. We paid for those docks. You're selling a strip of grass that is almost non-existent now. Um we would do a much better job of
taking care of that property if it was turned over to us, whether it's an HOA or some some committee or some group that you allow us to form. But I would like to uh offer you that the the rest of the community is pro is not likely to
to uh be interested in an HOA if the other other than the dock owners. We 19 have gotten together many times and we've signed a document. We are ready to do this whatever it takes to create a rel an organization an HOA a do whatever you want to call it and take over
ownership of that or responsibility of that strip of land. put a retaining wall in to make sure that it's taking care of property. We're ready to do that, but I don't think you're going to we're going to be able to get an HOA with all of the me all the owners. You also have to consider wasn't mentioned here today,
but there's a code I don't remember the code has come up before in our meetings that does not allow you to turn over that road to us because it's access to two other streets, PAR and NASA. you have that has to be a county road
because you have to maintain it for uh emergency purposes and other reasons. So that needs to be looking looked into as well. There's also a water line next to that road that I guess belongs to the city that has to be taken into
consideration. The um so my my recommendation request is that you sell us that land that two strip of two strip or two foot strip of grass and let us take over
responsibility for that canal and the docks. I think that's the simplest way to do it my opinion. You're going to hear some hear from some people um that have been here longer and have other uh things to uh represent or to present
you that might help your in your decision help in your decision. Um some of them have had these docs for decades as you mentioned and I think it would be wrong to take those docs away after a seven-year lease when they've had them in their families for so long. And I'd
like you to consider that as well. So if you have no questions for me, I thank you for your time and we have at least three more people that want to come up and speak. Sir, we we've already gone in the direction to direct staff to travel
a courseway. Uh I had public input and no just a few folks came to the podium and I appreciate what you said. I just want to clarify something when you said uh that you know somebody on the board
told you well again that's why we we're we where we are. Mhm. Um it was perception and information that was serving to a few.
Right. In addition, this was casually set up and furthermore is if a real estate uh if somebody in real estate purports that it's part of yours and it's not, right,
you have another issue. Oh, I I agree. And it happens with us many times. Sure. When a home is adjacent to conservation land and they said they're never going to build there. You'll always have this beautiful. We have a few of those too.
Roads are maintained. And who does that? And thirdly is uh that roadway if that roadway is abandoned uh which is lawful and legal. If it is the other two become deadend streets which they were in the very beginning.
They are right. That only allows for continuity between the two streets and to serve the uh the the docks. We did have some information going into this even though we had some surprise information but uh we want to take all
things into consideration and it sounds like uh we've gotten consensus on directing staff our deputy county attorney to do a little deeper research on this for the options communicate back
to us and uh I think we're going to take it from there. Right. I just wanted to make sure there these little tidbits and again you're going to get some more that you're aware of them because I didn't hear any discussion of those these items in here. I appreciate your input as well. That's why I was encouraging
everybody to come up as we uh before we had given the deputy county attorney the consensus. That's why we were discussing it and discussing it out with the public again and then coming back and then we
came to a consensus at this point. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Good afternoon or good morning. Um Chairman Fletcher, commissioners, my name is William Wood. I reside at 3007
Kolkata Drive in River County in the Country Club Point subdivision. I'm here this morning to address the current status of the docks. Um, oddly 30 years ago, June 1995, I was meeting with then county attorney Charlie Vetunic, Charles
Vatunic, and Deputy County Attorney um, Will Will Will Collins about the property because I was purchasing the property at that time. Um, I met with them. Uh, my brother was on the phone. He's a property attorney and my real
estate real estate agent because I was looking at this house to purchase. And through the conversation, um, it was determined that the dock was for my house was associated or was a part of the house property that I own, the dock.
I actually own the dock. In fact, in my um warranty deed, if I could read that, it says lot 13, block two, replplat of country club point, unit one, recorded in plat book 4, page 11, Indian River County, together with the rights, title, and interest of the granter without
warranty and in and to the certain dock commonly known as number 3007. So, they were numbered at one time. Mine was 3007. I was required to have that number on my dock. um which I did and it's exclusive
perpetual use which is something to me that was what my brother was asking about is if we buy if I buy this house is this stock going to be mine you know in the future and um this was it was exclusive
perpetual use um located dwy's of after said lot and immediately adjacent to Kolkata drive together with all rip arian and or latorial rights of granter attaching there to if any. My dock is now referred
to as dock number nine and the address is given as 3004 Kolkata Drive which doesn't exist. 3004 Kolkata Drive would be out in the canal. All numbers are odd numbers on Kolkata Drive. Um it's a terrestrial address that doesn't exist.
My doc was cited a notice of violation for being unsafe on February 13th this past year, 2025, by the building department. I was given 30 days to obtain a building permit and have my dock repaired with a threat of demolition and a lean being placed on my
dock and the dock being sold at public sale. To satisfy the lean, I acted immediately and began the process obtaining a building permit and dock construction. Um, I contacted a construction company um to do the necessary repairs. My building permit
was issued way after the 30-day limit on April 30th um with the assistance of some who helped to get it through the building department um long after the 30-day time limit was um given. I was concerned I was going to be paying for a
dock to be destroyed because I couldn't get someone to do it in that time frame, that 30-day time frame. Thankfully, I had assistance and that was waved. My dock has now been completed, completely replaced, and has passed the building department inspection and cost me a
little less than $10,000 to replace my dock. Um, and this is just last month during the time between being issued the notice of violation and my doc. I've come come to learn that there have been numerous county meetings I was unaware of and that there's been changes to the
dock agreements between the county and the homeowners. I was never notified that there was any of these discussions going on in the years past. Um, so this all of a sudden if I wouldn't have come in or got that doc notice, I wouldn't have known any of this was going on. I was completely in the dark about my dock
that I've had since 1995. I bought my home in July of 1995 with the understanding that I had entered into an agreement with Indian River County that I owned my dock. In fact, it's on my uh deed um and um in
perpetuity and that I would be able to transfer my ownership of said dock to whomever I sold my house to in the future in a similar fashion as I did. And that was in conversations with the county attorneys at that time. Um, there were no fees or obligations associated with me having the dock with
the exception of maintaining the dock and entering into an agreement to hold the county harmless for any and all damage to the bulkhead system of the road. I've now learned the county is attempting to to change the dock agreements, which I want to go into that. My doc's brand new. Oh, and the
with that attempting to change the dock agreements. I understand that um dog agreements are going to be on a seven-year or possibly a seven-year term and that we have to reapply every seven years um and that I would have to pay a $2,000 a year um lease fee um which
wasn't in my original agreement. I don't have a lease. I've got an agreement um with it. Um and I walked into that agreement, by the way. That agreement was made in 1986 by the original owner of the house, Lois McBain. And there are other docks on my street that also would
be in the same situation too um as mine as they've been there as long as I I'm one of the older longer term residents there. Um if I still owe my doc when I sell the house, I was told that the new owners are going to pay $5,000 upfront, which
wasn't what the agreement was when I had they it would be able to transfer. They could step into my shoes to do that. Um, so my dock is brand new. My previous dock was built in se in September of 1986. The flooding caused by Hurricane Milton apparently damaged my dock. I
knew that it had moved some of the planking, the decking, but I didn't realize it was unsafe. I mean, it only moved it just a slight bit. And so I got that violation. I was surprised to uh to see the violation out there. Um, I've lived in my house and never made never made aware of the building department.
And I never the building department has never made an inspection on the docks or on the canal banks when I've lived there. Um they've never done any maintenance on the canal bank. In fact, I've called to ask for some sod to be placed across there because it's been eroding away as years have gone by. Um I
don't have irrigation on it. It's across the street. Um but they would never ever do it. Um as far as drainage goes, Road and Bridge, I've tried to get them to help out because we do flood during hurricanes. In fact, I was just getting close to having water come through my house with Milton and they won't they
haven't responded to that. So, there really there's no maintenance going on. It's not costing the county anything to have it. I cut the grass um and maintain everything on the top for the neighborhood. Other people do, too. So, I've been doing it. Road and Bridge doesn't cut it.
Um the fees being proposed to maintain the dock inspections as well as annual dock fees and dock transfer fees were not part of the original agreement. Um I have been grandfathered in in 1995 when I purchased the house because that's what it said in the um discussion between the county attorney and the role
in deo at that time that I could step into the dock agreement that Mrs. McBain entered into. And um so I did that in 1995 and in 2004 I had to go through a discussion there because my ex-wife
um when we divorced she was a president of the homeowners association. There was a homeowners association in Country Club Point. She was a president when she divorced. We divorced. She never took care of anything more and the homeowners association by virtue of her not doing
anything was dissolved because you have to pay annual fees and reports and all and she didn't um do anything about it. We can reestablish that very easily. We do have a makeshift homeowners association in our neighborhood right now that exists and we meet annually um
for different events. Um and couple of things that came up. Uh well, John mentioned about the trespass signs. Um, yes, we have them because there are so many people that are coming on the docks and that are fishing and if they get hurt then we're liable for them. I know
the county is, you know, um, they're protected, but we need to have protection, too. So, that's why the no trespassing signs are on there. People don't even read the signs. They come on. Um, and by the way, there are other docks in the county on canals like ours
other than the 95th Street Boat Club that you all are going to address sometime in the future. I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus, but there is another development that has canals like ours and docks. So, um um let's see what else. Oh, and we
have a boat ramp down at the end of Kolkata Drive. most of the owners or the new owners because I've been there for so long. I know that was a selling point for me at the end of north end of Kolkata Drive. You can you can see the cement embutments or whatever where the
boat ramp was or is. Um and that was a community boat ramp. So the public has access to it in our development. It was in the original development plans. Either you purchased a house in the neighborhood that had golf view, golf course view, or you if your house didn't
have that, then you bought a house and you had option of a dock. Of course, I got an op dock option because I I bought it from the original owner of the house. Um, but that boat ramp was used by
people in the development. I used it in the years past. Not too many years ago, um, a homeowner had a boat lift built across the boat ramp. I don't think that they knew that there was a boat ramp there. I don't think the county knew that that was our county, our community
boat ramp. Well, they built a boat lift on it right in the crossed it. It prohibited anybody from using that boat ramp. Um, and then not too long ago, that boat ramp was realigned for whatever reason. Um, so it's now going
um parallel with the the canal, but we do have a boat ramp there. So people in the development can use that boat ramp if that boat lift is and it's not attached to any dock. It's just sitting there the way it was set up um because all the docks are parallel on the canal
bank and this one is out off from it. So we do have a boat ramp there and that uh the concrete abutment is in need of some work. I know that for sure. But and you can see the concrete that used to be for the boat ramp going into the canal. When they put that boat ramp in, the
construction company, they must have torn up some of the concrete because it's sitting on the canal bank now where it was. So, um, having lived there for 30 years now, I've got a lot of history and I've spoken to the neighbors that were there before. There used to be
makeshift docks on the, um, on the canal. Again, as I said, I first and foremost, I appreciate you speaking. I think board appreciates you speaking because you bring a little more
and you bring institutional knowledge and personal knowledge that uh again uh apparently uh this is going to be the third revelation of
the day. I you have a lot of paperwork and I as we've directed our county deputy attorney that's going to travel of course to bring this back
uh and bring us more information. Uh could I ask you to uh offer all of that information as I I'm going to take a risk here. I don't know if The deputy attorney has all your
information. Um, going to ask I'm going to ask because that wasn't shared with [Music] us as far as some of the facts that you have stated today. My original the owner
of the house that I bought it from, Lois McBain, McBain Home Decorating, which is down in 14th, um, she kept everything. I have photographs when those canals when the development was first being developed back in 1956. Aerial photographs that show the canals that
show the boat ramp. Um you know they show the houses are there in phase one. Um because that's when those were taken in 19. So you're you're stating that you're probably the only sole real owner of the dock. My doc my neighbor down the
street David also is in the same situation. Same situation. He has the same thing where he has a doc two in that situation. I mean I have a dock in perpetuity. Thank you sir. If I may. Yes. I have looked at every single deed and none of them including Miss
Lewis McBaines which is indeed book 103433 and I have it here in my hand and none of them convey doc property. Um this says lot 12 book two replat of country club point unit one. According
to the plat thereof recorded in platbook page 11, Indian River County record, subject to taxis levid subsequent to December 31st, 1955, subject to restrictions of record. Nowhere in there does it have the language about the deed. However, conveniently, as I stated
earlier, you cannot convey more apples than what you um have. Um this there was the same date there was a deed prepared on July 11th, 1995 by Mr. Wood's brother, Richard A. would esquire. And in that deed, conveniently, it added,
together with all rights, title, and interest of the grant without warranty in and to the certain dock commonly known as dock number 307 and its exclusive perpetual use located due east of the aforementioned lot and immediately adjacent to Kolkata Drive together with
all riparian and orctoral rights of the granter attaching there too. However, on that same date, another document that was prepared by the same attorney, Mr. Richard A. would for a continuous marital affid sorry a continuous marriage affidavit which he had Miss
Lois A. McBain the prior owner sign didn't have the dock it only had what she actually owned and what she could only convey which was lot 13 block 12 replat of country club point unit one according to the plat thereof is recorded to platbook number four page 11
according to the platbook of the Indian River County thereof. So conveniently something was placed and then there was a subsequent deed that was done when Mr. Wood was divorced and that happened in 2004 and the dock language was again removed. So I would make the argument
that there was dock language that was erroneously added because Miss McBain did not own that in her title. So therefore she could not convey what she did not own. What Mrs. McBain was conveying to us was the dock itself. I have the building
permit that Mrs. McBain um got to build that dock back in 1986. And so she apparently by that um claimed to own the dock. I don't know the legalities of it, but I know I just paid for a dock to be replaced there too, but
that um is on my um survey and it's in my warranty deed and in my deed itself for the property. So, and I'm not an attorney. My brother might be, my dad was, but I know that they both, my dad and my brother worked on doing this. We
previously had owned property up on A1A from in Ammerst development and we had property on the beach side. A1A split it and then on the o on the river side and we own 855 ft out sub submerged lands out on that. And I think he was probably
looking at that thinking if well if you can have property on both sides of the road there you know that might be something it's something apparently that was done in the past in Indian River County and I so but thank you sir thank you thank you for taking time to listen
to me so we still stand where we are thank you thank All right. I'm so sorry to see y'all. I Okay. I just I I'll just take one one minute and that that is to I I my name
is Jeff Cousins for the record. I own a home at 3011 Kolkata Drive. So, um, I just wanted to share, uh, when you're looking at potentially selling it to people on the outside, there is absolutely no no right of way for people to park there. They will either be
parking in the road and blocking our access or parking in my front yard. Uh, either one is a very bad scenario. The other I I would point out that there are a lot of uh, public benefits. One is uh
reducing uh expenses to the county. I I know I had one piling that brought it out on my dock several years ago. There was 20 emails back and forth between one of my neighbors and the county attorney
back and forth. At one point it started getting copied the county commission. We've been tied up in this for hours and hours and hours. Um the in my opinion the best scenario would be to deed those over to an entity as you're looking
into. So um being being a a a property owners association to manage that and take it off of you guys' hands, y'all got much more important things to deal with than our docks. So thank you. Thank you, sir.
Hi, I'll uh my name is John Fleger. I live on par drive. I have one of the docs that we've been discussing now for hours. Um I'll try not to repeat anything and just make a couple brief comments. Number one, I know this started because there were people that were disgruntled about how long they've
been on the waiting list and arguing that that what was happening to them was unfair. I'll also say that I literally waited for a home to come for sale in that neighborhood that had a dock and I paid a premium for it. Right? Based on the
history of what had transpired in that neighborhood, my house has had a dock associated with that property for more than 30 years. So there's been a history and a pattern and and I would encourage
you to be fair to the people that have that have lived in that pattern that have paid a premium for their homes because they include a dock. I would argue that the the revenue roles um you know the the real estate taxes that go
along with that does create additional revenue, but but factually I paid more for that house because that house had a dock and it had a new dock with a lift that the that the people spent almost $40,000 building. So, it would be unfair
for somebody that's disgruntled that they were on a waiting list because they chose to buy a house that had that didn't have a dock, right? They didn't pay a premium for it, trying to find a shortcut around to to end up with a dock. Be fair to the people that are in
the neighborhood that have operated under this pattern for many, many years, right? whether it's first right of refusal or recognizing the value of what they put on the dock. I heard earlier reference to uh Bureau Beach uh Marina,
right? Well, Ver Vo Beach Marina is very different. They pay for everything. They build everything. All the docks, all the lifts, all the electricity, all the water, and then they lease that out, you know, based on the value associated with
what they've done, right? the the $2,000 I pay and I'm one of the new ones that paid a $5,000 transfer fee and $2,000. You know, I I would argue $2,000 for a spit of land that has never been improved, that you never paid to have a
dock, you never paid to have electricity, never paid to have water. That's pretty high price, right? So, just be fair to the people that have been there and that have operated in this environment for a long time. Thank you, sir. That's our goal. We appreciate
you speaking and that's the direction that the uh deputy county attorney has to be fair and equitable to all and to move this forward uh where it needs to be so everybody can be happy with their
docks. Thank you. Seeing nobody else, we'll then move on to the authorization proceed with foreclosures on code enforcement cases 20240044 Schneider and 20245 TGS Innovative Solutions
Counselor. Good afternoon, Commissioner Susan Praau, deputy county attorney. On behalf of the county attorney's office, I bring to you today two different requests for foreclosure proceedings. If the properties look similar, it's because they are next to each other on the same
street. Sorry, I don't really it's not working. If not, if you could click okay, thank you. So, the first property is located at 322546 Street, Vero Beach, Florida. This photograph was taken on April 9th, 2024.
Um, you can see that there's overgrown grass and weeds. This case came in front of the code enfor. It went in front of the code enforcement board on June 24th, 2024 um where it was found to be in violation of our county code and the hearing on
June 27th, 2024 and the property was posted on June 11th, 2024. Um for the next hearing on July 22nd, 2024, the board conducted a compliance hearing. The board determined that it
still hadn't been complied with um and started a $100 a day fine. The subject property does remain out of compliance to this date. It's not a homestead property. There's not a home on it. So therefore, it would be open to foreclosure. You can see the photograph there that was from October 2nd,
2024. Um, this was the last photograph that I had before I took this in front of the board for approval to move forward with foreclosure. It was April 25th, 2025. As you can see, it still remains in the same state. Um the code enforcement board did approve an order to move forward with
foreclosure on this p on this particular property pursuant to the lean on the property. Um the amount that is owed on that as of today is $31,800 and um the code enforcement case is 20240400444 at this point in time. I'm
asking if the board is still wanting or to move forward with foreclosure or wanting to sorry move forward with foreclosure on this item. Make a motion to approve. Mr. One question, Mr. Chair, with
respect to this uh the date of that code enforcement board. Yes, sir. Do you know the date of that? This would have been brought in I'm sorry, forgive me. I believe this one was brought in um April. This was brought in April 2025
for the actual to move forward with the foreclosure. Sir, do you know if the um affected parties uh would have uh appeared at the May code enforcement board that was inadvertently
uh misscheduled? No sir, because this was um this was actually for the April one. So this came in front of the code enforcement board in April. The one that was supposed to be due to come in May. That's why this is coming a bit later. Otherwise, this would have been brought to the this board in May. I was waiting for another one, but um unfortunately
that one had to get moved. So, I just wanted to get these ones moving. So, yes, they've received um proper notice for that hearing as well as they were giving um mailed notice for today's uh meeting as well.
Thank you. A second. Okay. For a second. So, we have a motion and a second to move forward with uh Snider. Yes, sir. Any further
discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carried. Now moving on to TGS Innovative Solutions. Yes, sir. This is um a property owned by TGS Innovative Solutions at 324546 Street, Vero Beach,
Florida. Again, here's a picture of the property when the case was first opened back in April of 2024. On June 24th, 2024, there was a public hearing and the property was deemed to be in violation for overgrown grass and weeds. that hearing was noticed to be a certified mail return receipt unclaimed and the
property was posted. Um, continuing on with the history for this case, on July 22nd, 2024, the board did conduct a compliance hearing. At that time, it was determined that the violation was not complied with and they issued a a fine of $100 per
day. The subject property does remain out of compliance as of date and it's not a homestead property. There's no home on it, so we can foreclose. You'll see again uh staff just doing their due diligence and checking saw again on October 2nd, 2024 was still out of compliance before our last the morning
of our last um code enforcement hearing where I asked for foreclosure on April 25th, 2025. You will see that the grass and weeds were still overgrown and it was still in an overgrown state pursuant to the picture. The code enforcement board at that hearing on April 25th, 2025 did issue an order to move forward
with foreclosure on this particular property pursuant to their lane. Um, at this point in time, I'm seeking guidance from this board to see if you all would like to move forward with it. This property was obvious, it was sent um via certified mail for them for their foreclosure if the property was posted
and they were mailed a notice to appear here today and they did not appear at the April 25th meeting. And I'm not sure if I see anyone here present on behalf of this property today. So we ask to move forward. Commissioners motion to approve.
Proceed. Second. We have a motion by Commissioner, second by Commissioner Adams. Any further discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carries unanimously, folks. Other than uh some public input,
we do have one item uh that's on the agenda and we will take a fivem minute recess so human resources can queue up. ready to open up this meeting once again. Absolutely. And we're going to go
back to a previously topic. The meeting will now be called back to order and we see that uh our human resource director is at the queue and ready with the presentation for item 13 delta 1 which is a group insurance
recommendations for the plan year 20 25 2026 and there are multiple chat attachments which I'm trust you all have had the opportunity to review. All right. Thank you, commissioners. Uh Suzanne Bole, director of human
resources. Uh each year, uh I come before you with our recommendations for the upcoming plan year for our group insurance program. Uh the plan year runs October through September of every year. We have um our representatives with Lockton who are they serve as our
consultant to our group insurance program as well as our broker. I have Rachel Freriedman who is our account executive. And then I have uh Tresa Crayen Cen who is a pharmacy specialist with Lochen and uh we'll be able to
answer any questions that might arise uh as we go through the presentation. Um it was pretty extensive agenda item so I consolidated into a a shorter presentation. Uh so Kim if you could pull up the presentation I'd appreciate
that. Okay. So, our benefits, well, first of all, you know that um all of the constitutional offices are on our group medical and our pharmacy benefits. Um many of them share um in the other benefits that the board of county
commissioner has as well. Uh we currently cover oh, it's about 1,800 employees and retirees and about 3,900 members in total when you consider spouses and dependent children.
uh the benefits that we have in place under this program, we have a medical plan which is self-funded. Uh our administrative service is provided through BlueClass Blue Shield of Florida and you're going to see in uh the uh uh
agenda item that we are actually reviewing a renewal with Blue Cross Blue Shield. uh they have given us a rate uh at three years at 4814 per employee per month and then in the final year of their uh four-year
renewal they would increase it by 3% to 3958 per employee per month. They are uh also including $250 uh $50,000 in wellness funds spread out over that uh four-year period. uh upon approval by
the board, $50,000 would come in and then on October at the beginning of each plan year, another $50,000 would be paid by Bluec Cross Blue Shield to the county. Um there's going to need to be some funding decisions uh that you make related to the medical plan and the
pharmacy plan based on actuarial projections. Um, and then another piece that I wanted you to know is uh in this uh renewal uh proposal that Bluec Cross Blue Shield gave us, they actually gave it to us a year early because we had
some uh service issues with Bluec Cross Blue Shield that came up through the year. So they included some service guarantees in the agreement uh in the amendment to address the concerns. They have actually assigned a new team of uh support specialists. We have uh uh a
gentleman by the name of Omar who is in contact with us um every other week, sometimes weekly uh to review any issues that might have risen. So uh we really believe that Blue Cross Blue Shield is stepping up their game in supporting um us and our members as we move forward
into this upcoming uh plan year. And they made current changes to address the concerns that had been raised um related to our pharmacy benefit. that's also self-funded uh part of our medical program. And our current pharmacy benefit manager is ex uh RX benefits
with Express Scripts as the um the big the big uh PBM. Um we are actually recommending a change in our PBM to move to a pass through pharmacy uh PBM called rightway and there's information in the
agenda item related to that. And this uh recommended change also includes uh some funding funding and coverage decisions that that you'll want to look at. Um our dental program is running really well. Um we have a uh our um administrator is
with ameritus. We're not recommending any uh rate increase. Um they're they've actually done a renewal with no rate increase and the funding is really really good on our premiums there. Um, I do want to let you know, this may or may not matter to you, but if those of you
schedule your dental appointments and it's currently every six months and you have to wait till the six months passes before you can get that next dental appointment in, we're going to two times a year. So, no longer do you actually have to wait till six months has passed. If it's five months in between a
cleaning, makes a little bit more convenient for the members and there's no no uh cost increase cost to do that, but it should help help folks a little bit. Our vision benefit is through IMED. We have a rate hold through uh September 30th of 2029. Our life disability uh
program through Mutual of Omaha. We have a rate hold through this next plan year. Um we offer critical illness and accident insurance through Mutual of Omaha. That was added a couple years ago as a voluntary employee paid benefit. Uh we are in a rate hold again through this
next plan year. And we're actually um asking uh approval to add a hospital indemnity coverage through Mutual of Omaha just as a voluntary employee bait employee paid benefit uh to see if employees want to take advantage of that as well. We have our flexible spending
account and our COBRA administration is handled through PNA group. Um, we are currently in an agreement with them uh through I want to say it was 2026 and um but due to service issues, we're recommending to transition um in
in speaking with um a couple of my HR uh representatives from constitutional offices. They've experienced some uh difficulties with that group. We have as as well. And uh we're recommending we transition to a company called Lively
Me. uh they would handle our FSA and our COBRA services. Um there's a slight reduction on the FSA fee, a slight increase on the COBRA rate, but I'll I'll show you those numbers at the end. Our health advocacy and employee assistance program is currently provided
through a company called Health Advocate. Um our EIP rate is good. It's uh solid through July 31st of 2027. Uh we're not making any recommendations to change there, but we are recommending to transition to rightway for our health
advocacy and navigation benefits. And Rightway is the pharmacy PBM that we're recommending. And the reason we're doing that is because uh Rightway has really great technology that we can put in the hands of our employees through their app. It's going to allow them the
ability to not just get their pharmacy information, but have single sign on to certain other benefits like the medical plan, uh the dental plan, be able to keep all their cards in one place, uh for ease, be able to when when claims
come in, and um and you're running, you know, you're like, why am I getting this bill? Snap the shot. Deal with the health advocacy pe people to advocate for you if you think there's a problem with the bill. They'll do the calls to make sure that the provider has your
insurance information and they're going to really help facilitate and help support our members as they go through um this upcoming plan year. So, we're really excited about this opportunity for our plan members. The the health advocate benefit was a good step in the
direction, but rightway is a I think you called it a step above and it it actually gives a higher level service to our members. um our elective surgery benefit through Lantern. You'll you'll remember it was formerly called Surgery Plus, but now it's Lantern. Um there was a provision
under our current agreement, which was set to expire at the end of June, I believe, um for a two-year extension uh to keep the same rate at $4.25 an hour. Well, I sent off the the email that said we'd like to extend it. They sent the
email said, "Hey, it's going to go up to five something uh per employee per month." So, we saved some money here. My email got there first. Um we have the two-year extension, so at the lower rate, but um at the end of this rate uh and of this agreement, I expect it's
going to go up because we actually are getting a really good value with what we have through that program. Um diabetes management. Now, back in I want to say it was 2016, um, when I came on board with Indian River County, the county had just
entered into an a relationship with Connect for Diabetes Management and, uh, and it's been in place since that time. Um, under this program, we have 25 members that are currently enrolled. It's at a cost of $3,500 a month for
those 25 members. It's $42,000 a year and I have not been able to tie a return on the investment based on anything that we've received and and Lockton uh agrees uh with that as well. So we now have our
health center um that is is a place where people can go and get um easy access to uh care and support for chronic conditions. Many people have already enrolled uh in that. We have uh well over 700 people currently enrolled
as patients and there we're averaging like 39 extra members every month with the addition of our new provider that came on board. So um we're actually recommending that we sunset that program and transition our participating members to the uh Marathon Health Center so that
they can get the support that they need to manage their diabetes. Any questions up to this point? Well, I uh and thank you uh Suzanne. I I I appreciate the presentation. I just want to acknowledge
that you you see that the room is rather unwell attended. Many of us have received calls. I see that there's a couple of folks that would like to talk about their scenario and situation. I think
it's very important. I think that uh when we're talking about transition, I know that uh when we talk when we were going towards escripts that we had transitional value challenges that lasted about six months. Anytime you
have a plan transition, there is uh room for confusion. there's room for unexpla n un n un n un n un n un n un n un n un n un n unexplained benefits or explained benefits that aren't actually their perceptions not reality. Um again
presentation is very important and no difference to anybody who uh is suggesting one plan over the other but when we do have a transition we do have a lot of concern and there are many
people that are on uh prescriptions that uh they again I'll speak where like escripts does uh the home delivery as opposed to you having to go to a pharmacy. Um, there was so many
breakdowns in that transition, but the machine is running. And I I have to tell you that I've heard from a lot of folks that it took them 6 months to get to the right level of service that they were
due as a paid benefit and uh their family members were uh due and it finally got there. But it did take some time. So we could say in in the backup was say, you know, they'll have a 24-hour response. uh that's truly not a
reality. Okay. Uh and and and I I just want it out there that there'll be there'll be some contact, there'll be some advocacy, but again, it's like sometimes it's very akin to when you have
challenges with your cable box and we're talking about health. Yeah. We're talking about a critical health issue. something that if it's some are wants, we can get into that later, but some are
needs and life sustaining needs. Uh there are some prescriptions that people can't travel without have to be able to get them to wherever they're going and it's their paid benefit. So I I think that's very important when we're
analyzing the possibility of change. look at what the value and the pressure is upon the individuals that we are servicing here in in your river county. And I we we have to look at patient care
and patient treatment. And and just to that point, um we do convey that to Lockton and they they take that in strong consideration when they start looking at um evaluating uh providers for us because of that very
reason because they know that um our members deserve a high a high service hightouch support for this very important benefit and and there are there are limitations with every plan. Yeah. And I I think I understand that
and I think my colleagues do too. Uh because we receive a lot of calls. Again, the absence in the room is not an indication. I trust there are many that are watching this meeting and would like to speak. Some have invoked they said,
"Well, I didn't want to violate uh HIPPA." Um well that that's erroneous because you you can speak about a topic without identifying uh a a prescription or a medical treatment that you are
undergoing. Uh there is a way to do that. So, they would not be violating HIPPA and and I want them to know because they're watching uh that uh their input is is important and appreciated and I had only wished uh as
one that they would have taken the time to come here as well because this is a critical decision. Um and I'd also like you to articulate a little bit on the hospital indemnity
program. Um, I mean it sounds good. Indemnity is always a good word, but uh what does that really mean? What's the cost factor? What's going on with that? And how does that uh affect our uh the employees that serve any of county?
Right. Um it's a benefit that pays out if somebody's admitted to the hospital and it pays um a cash benefit to the members. Um Rachel, if you'll Yeah. So there's there would be two different plan options for the members, but essentially it would provide them additional cash benefits related to a
hospitalization regardless of whether it was for an accident or an illness. So the plans you have in today pay a cash benefit if someone's specifically diagnosed with a critical illness or if they're in some sort of accident and there's hospital related expenses. So the benefit of a hospital indemnity
program, it was covered things like maternity. That's a a big pro for your members. Um, we did do an analysis within our data analytics warehouse with Indian River County data specifically and it shows that 90 members had three
or more impatient days um with a total of 294 admits that could have been covered under the hospital indemnity plan had they elected it. So that would be a benefit to your members. It's voluntary and there's an additional expense.
uh there's a premium associated there's a premium uh to to that benefit but it also avoids expensive continual lifelong need uh leans and yeah it helps it helps bring some additional income when you're
facing a hospital admission and higher out-of- pocket costs and I think it needs to be discussed that this was not this is not arbitrary that that we are um exposed to an
executive order to reduce prescription prices as well and that's one of the reasons why we're here. We would be automatically be looking at this but that is also a concern too. So reduction
reduction reduction but maintaining the best possible service for our employees here you know and just um and the constitutional employees. Exactly. So the um what that executive order as I read through it um uh the president was
basically stating to the PBMs, sell us the money or sell us the medication at the same cost that you're selling it to these other comparable countries of comp comparable sizes. We're charged in America much higher prices. And that's one of the reasons why we have that Cana
RX program where people can get some of their medications through internationalarmacies at a at a lot less cost to the price uh to the price to our plan. So that executive order was basically to send a message to the PBMs,
you need to do better with the medication costs in the United States of America. Then in the state of Florida back in 2023, there was a a bill that was enacted um that basically said in Florida, you need to pass through pharmacies. Well, initially Express
Scripts said, "Well, that only applies to Orisa plans," which we're not an Orisa plan. We're a governmental plan. But they've since changed that and said, "No, it does actually apply to your plan." and they've submitted a um an
offer as a pass through pharmacy, but they're really not. And that's why you're going to see the difference on the the um uh uh results that came back when we quote when we got the the estimates back from them, their best and
final offers. You have Smith RX who came in with the lowest pricing, but because of the things that you talked about earlier, you know, the disruption issue, Lockton's not recommending them for us because they just don't believe that would be a good fit. It it it would be
too it would be an aggressive approach for managing your medications. Whereas Rightway, um the savings aren't as great as with Smith RX, but the customer service and the um the way that they go about helping our plan source their
medications at the lowest cost and helping our members source the medications is is a much better uh uh program for our members to be in. Um is there anything you want to add to that, Tresa? No, I think you're right. Um, as far as talking about Florida bill 5150
and the executive order, um, the PBM rightway that we're recommending, they are a true lowest net cost PBM and pass through PBM, whereas you were in a more traditional arrangement. This PBM is, you know, whatever you're paying them is
what they're paying the pharmacy. They're not making any money on a spread like some of the larger PBMs, ESI that you're with now. all of the rebates that they received are being passed down to you. They're not skimming anything off the top. And so we feel like this PBM
and their model is a true pass through model and would best fit the bill that was passed here in Florida because it is a true pass through. And finally, um, so it's a true pass through. Um, how
does that interrelate with good RX? Often times when we go to a pharmacist um sometimes Good RX is the better deal. How does that work? For that good RX uh
what they do is you know they have a lot of uh medications I guess we say you can look at a few different medications or you can look at the whole fruit basket. So, they do have a few medications that maybe some uharmacies like a CVS or a
Walgreens may have a coupon or they may have discounted. They'll put it on good good RX's platform to try to get people in the door, right? Because if you come into the pharmacy, you're probably not going to just get your prescription. You may get some toilet paper or some candy or something else. But you're right. So
with a PBM like Rightway, they don't have their own pharmacy or they're not trying to make you buy. If you were at C with the CVS, CVS would make you go to theirarmacies. They have it all opened up. So if their Good RX price is the cheapest, they have that all built into
their formulation. So when the claim is processed, it's going to pull to the lowest net cost. whether that's with the good RX cost, if it's Mark Cuban, uh his his pharmacy, the way it's worked, if it's Amazon, um and they do that with the mail order as well. So, you're not
required to use a rightway mail orderer pharmacy like you are with ESI. It is truly getting it from at that time, what pharmacy has the lowest net cost at that time. So, that would all be built in to answer your question. And the reason why
I asked is because I've heard from uh some that uh when they've uh filed for prescriptions at a pharmacy and they were told that you know we're not going to use your plan uh good RX is a better
deal and then the discussion is why don't we just do good RX? Well, not everything is available on good RX. No. Okay. Correct. Thank you for that. And then just to add to that, if you go outside the plan through Good RX, you'd be paying the cash pay and it wouldn't go through the to the out-of- pocket
maximum. So that could be additional expense on that member. It doesn't run through the plan. If I cash pay through Good RX, it doesn't hit the plan and and work towards my out-of- pocket deductible or maximums. Um so that's the value of having that um great pricing
through Rightway. So, the member experience is great pricing, but it also runs and hits towards their out-of- pocket expenses. Using your credit card to ensure that you get uh flyer miles. There you go. There you go. There's always a benefit
somewhere. There you go. Yep. Thank you for that. Um I see there's some folks that would like to Could I could I talk about our plan, but let's let's go ahead with the plan. Um so, the other thing that we're recommending are two more additional voluntary benefits. So, a
total of three new additional voluntary benefits. Um, in addition in addition to that hospital indemnity program, um, identity theft is a big issue. I can't tell you how many times we have members that are coming in saying, "I need to change my direct deposit. Somebody got got my information. Somebody got my
stuff." And so, um, we've had some folks come in with that. Um, the Norton Lifellock is the program that's being recommended. U, nobody has to enroll in it. It's completely voluntary. There's going to be two offerings, a low and a high, but it does provide uh really good
assistance and support if you are the victim of an identity theft. Um the other one is a legal plan coverage uh through is it Arag? AROG? Yes. Arag Arag. Um uh as two plans, a lower and a
high one. And um again they they will provide uh coverage for legal assistance for a variety of matters to our employees at a at a at a lower cost. And then I asked the I asked the question I said okay so what if I burn through my hours that are offered under the plan
then what and they actually have negotiated rates for reduced um costs for for attorney expenses as well. So those are just completely voluntary. And then um I figured uh you might want to know how things are going at the health
center. Um we've had 2,863 patient visits. Uh 736 engaged members. Um as I stated earlier, the average new monthly engagement is 39 members that are that are enrolling and
uh the the promoter score is really high at 91.6. people are very grateful um that the board uh did authorize the health center to be opened and be available to our to our members. So um I want to talk a little bit about our
medical and pharmacy trends which really that's the issue um that that uh I think has people's attention and some of the the choices that are before us and and how we we handle where we're at today. So, our current loss ratio um through
March 2024 is 101.6%. That means that we're paying out more than we're bringing in um to the plan. Um you can see the 24 uh 23 and 2022 numbers. So, um uh 2022 we were
doing really well. Uh still doing really well. 2024 was good. And then we've got this big jump. Um and of course when I start seeing the big jump I start asking locked in what's going on what's going on and um the drivers of the the
increase uh are of course the GLP1 weight loss medications uh we had um increased outpatient surgery costs uh inpatient costs um increase uh office visit costs increased and our group has
a higher illness burden than norm. So what does that mean? uh that when you start looking at our group and the illnesses that that our group has, it's it's a statistically higher than what the norm is for the book of business with Lockton. Um uh we have a higher
percentage of members with high to moderate risk uh compared to the norm of of uh lockdown. So we're at 47.5 on the high to moderate risk. Uh the norm is 37.7. Uh, another thing that impacted us was
um in in the period October 2023 through March 2024, we had 16 claimants that were over $50,000 in claims and that totaled up to 1.59 million. And now we go through to this year, this same period in this current plan year, um,
through March 2025, we had 29. So instead of 16, we had 29. And instead of 1.59 million, it increased to 2.81. 81 million um of claims costs over $50,000. Um so it's interesting how just
a small number of events can really drive uh the experience. Now yes sir those main drivers are they listed in any type of order?
No no just came came to me that way. So, I put it in that order. Um, well, let me ask that question that it could be. Yeah, I mean, did you guys put it in that way? I would say that GLP1s were identified as driving um 4
point GLP1s for weight loss coverage were identified as driving 4.3% of your 14.8% trend. And then the other factors there identified um outpatient, surgery, inpatient, and office visits were 2 and a.5% each. So
GLP1s are leading that trend. So the top one is the top one is more than the rest of them combined. No each one was two and a half. Okay. Two and a half. Outpatient surgery, inpatient and office visits were each 2.5%. Yes. Okay. So 4.3
compared to 7.5. Yes. Yes. Okay. Now um this is good news. this first bullet, our insurance trust is well funded. Uh we have 25.4 million in
it as of March 31st. Um however, when uh I met with Lochen and we renew we reviewed our claims experience and the projections for the upcoming year and that was in the middle of May that we did that.
Um they they uh had gone out to market. They had looked at the pharmacy benefit. They had looked at the pass through pharmacy and they said if we project your what you're going to need to pay your claims with assuming that rightway is your pharmacy benefit manager
um you are going to need $27.5 million to pay your claims. Now I don't want you to compare that number to the number on the top line. I want you to compare it to the number below which is what our projected premiums bring in as our
revenue. So we bring in uh 24.3 million in a collective premiums through the variety of sources. The the lion share comes from the employer. the employees put their contribution amount in um and then retirees also send their their
amount in um either through it's deducted out of their pension or they they uh submit payments. So what that means to us is we have a projected shortfall of 3.24 million. Now projected shortfall this
isn't a sure thing. This is a projection based on the actuar's assumptions and they base those assumptions based on the information that they have on our plan members about what illnesses are in in play right now today, which ones they
think are going to continue, which ones might drop off, what uh expenses are related to increased medical just cost of doing business, right? um uh labor costs, supply chains, um with what could
be happening internationally related to supply chains and costs and all those things. So, it's it's not just one of those bullets on the former slide. There's a lot that goes into play to get to a projection of what what they believe we need for the upcoming plan
year. And that number is 27.5 million if we change our PBM to rightway. They're assuming some some substantial savings for our plan because we'll be getting instead of the I'll call it a shell game with our PBM where you really don't know
what the cost is. Um you just kind of get the bill. But with Rightway, it's transparent and pass through. So we know what we'll we'll know what we're paying for for the medications. Um, and we will know that that uh rebate is truly a 100%
rebate. There's we're told we're getting a 100% rebate under our current agreement, but there's like this little loophole that allows them to be able to hold some back and send it over. Now, what's interesting is when you look at those um uh pharmacy benefit proposals that came
in and you're going to see pass through for RX benefits on the far right, you're going to see that their admin fee went up from $27,000 $27,500 in the incumbent column because they're our incumbent to
$420,000. So, they shifted their their expenses to that 420. And then you're going to see on the um the rebates that are going to come in the the rebates are going to be less than than that what would come in under Rightway. So Rightway is going to have a lower
administrative fee. You're going to have higher rebates and people will still be able to get their medications, but the benefit to the plan is that it's basically $1.6 million better offering uh on the on when the proposals were
reviewed. However, the savings on the projected expenses are a million because of all those other things I was telling you about increased costs moving forward. So instead of 27.5 million with rightway, if we stayed
with our current PBM, we'd need 28.5 million in projected claims. And in relation to our current uh premiums that are coming into the plan of 24.3 million. So our our uh I put the best
scenario of the shortfall, the projected shortfall, this isn't a given, this is projected, of 3.24 24 million. It could be better. It could be worse. What What do we project this fiscal year's uh shortfall be? So, um did we
get that number from Dennis? As far we're just 10, we're 101.6. Uh we're running, you know, at averages. It's like they do this 12 month rolling average. Um so, if it stays on that trend, uh and if we stay
at one 10, we're 1.6% 6% short. So 1.6 uh% I guess of the 24.3 million potentially. Yeah. I mean exactly. I mean if you build in trend, you're likely going to
be above you're going to stay above the 100% threshold. If you simply doubled your um six-month cost today, you would be at 24.7 million. Okay. So question that's based on next year's premium cost. What's this year's
premium cost? It's the same. This is assuming premiums are exactly the way they are today. This is just without making any decisions, you know, just being where we are today. I think to the point that like if you're looking at the 101.6
right now for the current year, what's the current year premium cost? Right. we have uh 24.3 that's that's they they take our that's projected for 2526 right but we it doesn't assume any
increase in premiums that's just keeping it current this is this is if we left our our funding level the same and didn't do anything that's the gold that's that's the gold the silver and the RX it's all at the same level so
it's 24.3 for 2425 and the the projection is 24.34. Yeah. And it only changes based on the headcount. So if the headcount changes, then you'll have more premium coming in, but you could also have more risk, you
know, as we hire new members. It's a snapshot in time and then they annualize it. Um, but we fluctuate on our enrollment. Uh, it it, you know, we go up a few, down a few, up a few, down based on So what has the trends been in the last six months of our plan years going back like a couple years?
If you look at this plan year, so October 24th through March 25 year to date, you're 28% up as far as your claims costs and total costs. The second six months, what is what is the average? I mean, is is that consistent that early
on from October and you got the flu season, everything, people using it, and then it kind of tails off and then your last six months is where you don't have as much claims as you do in the first six months. So, seasonality trends with health plans actually say the opposite.
The first three to six months of the plan should be the lower spend time because people are still members are still meeting their deductibles and out-of- pocket maximums. and then the CLA claims costs increase towards the last half of the year. So, let me ask if obviously we're in
FY2425 right now. Yes. And I'm reading that uh of 331 2025. So, we have 6 months to go in this fiscal. What are we trending at for a deficit?
Well, that that trust we report on it quarterly. It's attached to our newsletter that goes out. And the newsletter, I think in April, had that it went up a little bit. The trust balance went up. I'd have to
pull up the newsletter and see what that cost. So, you're saying it's 1.6, right? So, is that would that equal $388,800? So the one point no if it were at
101.6 and we maintain that at the end of the year we would take $38800 or the the trust fund would be reduced by $388,800. Correct. Well the the way that it works is the premiums go into the
into the trust, right? The claims get paid out of the trust. all of our So it's it's a it's fluid. Does that make sense? So you have dollars coming in, dollars going out. But my my question is what do we project
uh the effect on the fund balance on 930 of 25? So 930 of 25 assuming a if if we're short this year, how short are we going to be? Do we have that number?
389,000 if it's well that's John if that's if we're through if we're true through 331 of 25 right so that's the first 6 months of this fiscal yes so if those trends continue until 9:30 of 25
my question is what effect does that have on the fund balance isn't your trend analysis based on what you believe it'll be at the end of the year 101.6 six. No, no, that that's that's year to date. So that's year to date. Yeah, that's current for the end of the year.
So trends this year were projected to be around 7%. 7% and that's combined medical and pharmacy $1.7 million. Yes, that's trending forward. The 12.3 that's current cost is that what at
24.3. Yes. So 7% would be $1.7 million. Correct. Reduction in the insurance trust fund balance. Correct. Right. But then on 9:30 of 26 this trend
is indicating 3.2 million. So yeah, what I think what they're suggesting is if if we make the changes, a couple things that need to happen. We need to rate to offset the costs, just getting right to it, is eliminating the
coverage of one drug, which is the GLP uh one. I think there's some other ones that are that but that's the one that's gotten most attention. And then there's also the the need to offset the premiums by increasing the gold. And my
understanding is is that because the silver is actually already subsidizing the gold so plan. So therefore the the logical, you know, depending on where you what seat you're sitting in in silver or gold is that you're going to
increase that premium. And those two things combined reduce the $3.2 $2 million potential deficit to well we would get funding in $1.72 million. So, um, that would reduce it to
So, there's the point being is there still be another $1.5 million at the end of n right 2026 that would come out of the insurance trust fund and that's with an increase on the gold plan premium. Correct. And so these projections of course take
into account the experience that you felt over the last 12 months. So, of course, if that experience improves those projections would reduce. Yeah. So, we were shooting for about half of what they said would be a shortfall, the 3.2 million, um, in order to, uh, recoup
or get us in a better place where we weren't dipping into the savings, living on savings for the plan and to minimize the impact to those employees that might experience or members that may experience a premium increase. Right
now, um, this is just an option. this uh premium increase it uhund uh 1.33 million would come from the employer and 392,000 would come from employee contributions.
Um the way that it works is we would increase the employer well the total monthly premium goes up as represented there and then we would increase the employer's contribution amount uh to to make up the lion share of that increase
and then um we would uh retain the silver employee premiums at their current rates uh because we're we're hoping to keep an affordable place for our members to who are for our working families. And
then silver subsidized gold, right? Yeah. And then the employee uh gold would go up $5 on the single and 44 point uh 42.5 dollars on the uh gold for the
family. It is um that's just an option that that's just a way of getting us in a little bit better place. The other uh thing we were looking at was what John had spoken about. Um in addition to selecting rightway as our PBM which is
that's what gets us the 3 2 million gap right um we would uh further reduce it by removing the GLP1 weight loss medications from coverage. So, as of May 31st, uh we had 241
covered members that are receiving this medication under the plan. Uh the actual year-to-ate cost, um based on that information that I received was $930,000 uh,000 from January through May of 2025.
Um so when I annualize that, that comes out to like 2.2 million um for in expenses uh for the medication. But removing this benefit would disrupt 241 members who are currently receiving this medication under the plan. Um and
members uh the option would be for members to be referred to what we call direct to manufacturer programs. Um they're able to access they can actually get the medication at 50% of the cost that the plan pays for it. They and they
and I was asking Tresa I said is that there an end date on those offerings? And Tresa, what did you No, there's no end date. It's just the manufacturer selling directly to consumers. So, it's their direct to consumer price, but they charge us more. Correct. I've actually
talked to some of our employees that are on this medication, and that's not the way that that works. I I know that that is the way that the um manufacturers claim that those programs work, but it's not like you just send it to them and
they're going to send it to you for 50% off. So, and I did call um one of the doctors and talk to them about referring and it's it sounds good on paper, but it doesn't work like that in reality.
What did they say was happening? The the employer employee Um, you'll be lucky if you get them to sell it to you once and you'll never get it again. That's interesting. I do have some um my neighbor, some family members that are getting it direct from Eli Liy. Um, and
they're getting it. They used to get it in, you know, it comes in like a pin that you can just stick yourself similar to some of the diabetes meds. Um, and they are selling it to them in a vial versus the pin injector because that costs more. But my neighbor's getting it
for like $499 a month and she's been getting it for probably the last six months. Um, some other people that I know are doing it as well and getting it. So, I don't know if that person or some that you spoke to may have been having an issue
or a reason why. That's just there. The doctors are suggesting or um referring people to compoundingies versus the manufacturer because the manufacturer I don't I would I mean we'd be happy to pass that on to whomever the information
that you have, but that's not what our that's not what's going on within this community. So I know that's on the slide, but I just want to point out that locally that's not what's happening. And then I did have a question, Suzanne. Sure.
As I recall several years ago, um maybe it was probably multiple years ago, five or six years ago, we talked about prescription benefits because at that time we had like one or two members
of our group that their prescription medication was actually costing the group like $500,000 a piece. Yeah. We did not drop that medication. No, that was for a a a medical diagnosis. Um
cystic fibrosis if I recall correctly. Um so it was to treat a medical condition. And in fact, GLP-1s will still be covered uh for diabetes um under the plan. You would still have access to a GLP-1 if you were uh prescribed for the treatment of
diabetes. And um we have people today that are on it for for that reason. the numbers that um I reviewed and that I obtained from um Locked In are related to weight loss medications and I just Go ahead, John. I
was just going to say when you're done I just Mr. Sure. I do have some to convey some I guess employee employer thoughts, employee thoughts as well as I also spoke to a doctor because this is causing a lot of angst with our employees and some of them are reticent
about coming forward and making comments because I'm just want to be able to sorry want to be able to convey those thoughts so the board is aware and that we've represented the employees and and and that's what I uh came uh in the
beginning of this conversation that there are many that expressed but felt that they were violating HIPPA by talking about their topic. Yeah. Uh and that most certainly isn't the case if they're not
identifying or releasing information because that is was not the intent of the HIPPA law to begin with. Right. uh but people have used that as an avenue and umbrella not to be able to
speak upon it. Um but again we we're discussing GLP1 there are other medications available at a far different
price that are doing are intended for that reason. And I don't know if anybody has to discuss them. Uh I'm not a doctor. Yeah, I'll say nobody here is a doctor,
but we have a pharmacy expert. I was going to say just for the record, you're correct that the doctors were referring people a lot of times to those compoundingies because there was a shortage with the GOP1 weight loss medications at a time. And so these compoundingies were allowed to compound,
but the shortage is over. And so they will no longer be able to compound these GOP1 medications for weight loss. The FDA and the government is going to make sure that those those compoundingies cannot compound those medicines anymore.
And so that's why the manufacturers know they have to kind of step up their game and make sure you know if they want to sell this medication because a lot of plans don't cover them. They have to do this direct to consumer and be more aggressive about it. What are the other medications in the pipeline? So, for in
the weight loss category, there are older medications that are peels that have been out, appetite suppressants and things that have been out in the market, you know, you can get a 30-day supply of those for 20 bucks. And you guys, if you were to remove GOP1s for weight loss,
which you know, they're much greater the efficacy what they're doing. They're great medications. If you were to remove that coverage, you could keep the weight loss medications, the older ones that are appetite suppressants and things, you could continue to cover those. They're very cheap, and I have had some
other plans do that. Are there new medications coming on board that should be less expensive than the injectables that that we know about? Not at this time for weight loss. Uh the GOP ones for weight loss right now, there's one
peel that, you know, doesn't work as well. It's a it's a diabetes pill correctly uh currently but they are studying it for weight loss as well. Um, but the price is about the same. And so currently there are no generics in the
works for the weight loss GOP ones yet. And again, not being a doctor or medically trained uh in prescribing, but just being being aware, you know, we um
how much do we cover for Botox? Uh, you you say, "How much do you pay for Botox?" No. How Well, I I don't use the product. No, you almost got me there. No, he's naturally this refreshed. Oh, I'm just Yeah, we need to
sell whatever. Thank you. Thank you. She's far younger than all of us. Um, so currently under our plan, you're asking about Botox coverage. Yes. It just So, for cosmetics, it wouldn't it wouldn't be covered. it would be an elective but
but for some like some people's migraines are treated migraines excessive sweating is another diagnosis the reason being is because we're talking about GOP1 uh Botox was developed to treat people with
neuromuscular uh afflictions and it's it's not even used I mean that was the direction it went but everybody used it I I see it gets used in the environment community, but we don't pay for that. That that's a
a cosmetic application unless it's for migraines. Yeah. But oh, so there is a way and there are many many the he might need some Botox for the migraine now he's getting but uh you know there are
many medications that we don't cover because they're elective. Um I I will say there's even some antibiotics which uh are not vanity products but they're not covered. Um
there's one antibiotic we won't mention by name. It's it's tremendous in cost. They just said, "We we don't cover that." Or eventually the the co-pay was so great that co-pay was off the wall uh
that people just stopped I guess doctor they stopped prescribing it. Uh so again we are we being geared by patient health, patient want or economics? So
under our current plan um we have access to GLP-1 coverage uh for people who do not have diabetes for the purpose of weight loss if they have a certain BMI level and if they have a
comorbidity. So um they it's not just anybody can go. There is a a prior authorization process currently with um express scripts that we put in place in 2024 at the end of 2024 when we saw the you know it was it was jumping. Um that
would still be in place under rightway. Um they would still manage it through prior authoriz you know making sure it's you you meet the BMI that the doctor's notes back it up um and that you have uh comorbidity. uh co-orbidities are things like high blood pressure, high
cholesterol, those types of things. And our group, as we saw in that other statistic, we have higher illness burden rate. You know, we're kind of a little bit more um higher moderate to high risk. Um 47% I think it was. So, um but
that that's a criteria that's in place today under the plan. Um, we do have 241 members that are um, and I assume they're they're they're finding a benefit uh, from being on this medication that it's helping them uh,
with weight loss goals um, with reduction of blood pressure, you know, certain things that that that they're experiencing uh, potentially even their blood sugar levels and things like that. Um, so there's there's very likely a
benefit beyond the weight loss on the health side of things. We just don't have any way to quantify it to say, hey, it's going to, you know, it's going to give us a return next year of, well, while we're paying out here, we're going to get this much back through avoidance
uh, or improved health. We just don't have any way to quantify that. But I'm sure it exists. I just can't quantify it. And we of Suzanne of the 241 we don't know what amount are having it for diabetes.
None of those are diabetes. Those are all weight loss. We we pulled the numbers specifically just for those that don't have the diagnosis of diabetes but are taking it for weight loss. So I I just want to be clear about that. How many are using it for diabetes? Oh, I don't even know if we
looked at it for that because we wouldn't we wouldn't stop covering it for diabetes. So, the ones that are taking it for weight loss right now still have to meet the coorbidity. That's the current prior authorization currently. So, they're taking it for weight loss, but they also meet one of
those. They also check one of those other coorbidities, high blood pressure, heart. So, it's not like, oh, I'm I can't fit into my favorite skirt and I'm just going to go down and and get some Yeah. GLP1. Correct. And And I guess can
I, you know, just go ahead this conversation because I did speak with uh had conversation with medical doctor and I'm going to just I wrote it out so I'm just going to read it. one, there exists relevant medical data to support the reduction of obesity and not just the
and not just severe or morbid obesity. uh the they concurred the health care costs for adults. I I've shared some of the information about they're much higher for adults that than health with that are obese than those that are
healthy weight. And I think our own the numbers that you all provided were 43% higher for those obese, 79% for those with severe obesity. And she did note that she couldn't speak to those costs specifically, but the
benefits of the impact, the costs, her opinion, will rise as overall health declines in the long run with all co com co com co com co com co com co com co com co com co com co com co-orbidities associated with obesity uh believes it will cost the county more to address and cover chronic conditions to include but
not limited diabetes, coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease and stroke. Other benefits noted were joint pain and mo improve mobility, excess weight parts, excess weight, uh I know oh uh stress on the joints and
increased risk of osteoporosis. And then she also noted mental health, depression, and anxiety. And that would go towards the comment that I that one employee was very specific with is that they've struggled with their with in addition to another medical condition, but maintaining their weight, which is
affected and that they this has helped them lose their weight, attain a lifestyle in terms of exercise and nutrition where they were previously unable to because they were fatigued and they couldn't exercise outside just basic walking. And this particular
employee was very anxious, doesn't feel comfortable coming here because quote unquote felt like they didn't want to be fat shamed because they weren't controlling their weight. So that that's kind of what some of the employees had shared. And then that's what when I reached out to the doctor
and I know and one of the things I asked talked to Suzanne is like when we look at our marathon our health our wellness center are they and about 11% of our prescriptions are coming from them because they're identifying the potential need for it. I just want to
share that information. Right. And along just along those lines, so when we talk about that second bullet about removing the the weight loss medications, my role um in overseeing this health plan and in in looking at
trends and spend and um cost-saving uh opportunities or places where we're paying too much for something where we can get the same thing but not pay as much. um when I partner with uh Loct and we evaluate those kinds of things. um we
we do what we can on that end. You know, getting what you can at a at a more reasonable cost, but we're not going to be able to um say who's going to have a a diagnosis of a serious illness or a hospital admission or or um a complicated
pregnancy that results in a a NICU stay or you know, all those different things that can hit the plan. And um the GLP1s came on the market uh in 2022 and um doctors were you know started prescribing them and our members because
the plan covered it started taking them and and cost you know started moving up because it was it was something that that was a benefit under the plan. Um then where it comes in, it's like, okay, well, when when we get the the we're
going to be in the red, you know, when the projections aren't matching what's coming in the account, it's almost like if uh I have money coming in and I get an increase on my rent and now I'm short, I got to do something to get more
money coming in. So, um that those are those are kind of the choices. we either make a modification or we look at funding opportunity or in the case of a healthy savings account, do we live on our savings?
You know, those are all those are all things to consider. [Music] Um it's hard to say, yeah, let's remove this coverage from the plan. Um just as many folks who are I I like this
benefit. I it's it's benefiting me, you know, legitimate benefiting. I had somebody that was sharing with me that they had been on a weight loss medication, one of the ones you were talking about, Tresa, years ago, and it just made them sick and they they just stopped taking it and they've dealt with
weight for a long long time. Um they just recently started on the GLP1 and um in in a short period of time, uh 20 pounds has come off and they'd never made that type of progress before. and they did see a positive on the on their
blood pressure. You know, it impacted their blood pressure. So that that those are some real uh testimonials if you would about the benefit. But then we are left with the decisions that have to be made related to when when the um costs
are increasing to provide the benefits that we're providing. What are our next steps? What should we do in response to that if anything? Speaking of testimonials, um you
know, can you enumerate on the weight loss programs that we have here in Indian River County for the employees? So, we have no specific weight loss programs in Indian River County for employees, but we have had discussions
with Marathon and the wellness um uh persons with Locked In regarding what makes sense um for helping support our members with weight loss programs. Now, there's lots of weight loss programs out there. Um uh myself, I took advantage of
weight loss uh um Weight Watchers years ago. That was back in Did that work out for you? It it worked out great. I dropped 50 pounds. Um, but it took a lot of notice. I'm just No, but but it took it took a lot of work. I mean, I went to the meetings. I did the thing, you know.
It it it it was slow. It was like two pounds a week, you know, and you're going along. But, you know, that that that helped me. That that was available to me. um those are available today. But we we still are left with the reality
that there are people who have struggled with um with weight loss who who didn't succeed in a program um that's out there who likely might not succeed with a weight loss program although we would put together the best thing that we
could. Um, yeah. Well, the reason why I bring it up is I mean, we we have 20% of the organizational population uh affecting the other 80%. And they're
they're paying the burden. And uh I brought up the weight loss programs because we did have something here. Uh it was informal and guess what? It worked. It worked well. Okay. Um, you know, if if you make a
cognitive decision and again I I I understand there's there's other elements. Um, I myself personally many years ago made a decision and it worked. And we
all know everybody here, we know one individual that has lost over 180 pounds. by dedication, not one control substance. No, it's about
commitment. And we're talking about going on this because there's a way to trick the system that a drug that was never intended for that purpose is now utilizing it. Now it's driving our cost skyrocketing.
I mean it it is a real it's a it's it's a real um it's it's real. The numbers are real. Um the the number of people that are on the medication and who are being benefited by the medication uh that find value in that medication
that's real as well. Um, I I guess I think you know when you start thinking about this and this this sentence, members would be referred to direct manufacturer programs being able to access lowerc cost cash pay rates, 50% savings over plan costs. That
seems so impersonal that statement, right? It's like it just seems like, oh yeah, we're just going to refer you over. I wish that those medications weren't that high cost. I wish the pharmacy benefit managers would make it
affordable for a plan to provide it. But when you start thinking about the sustainability of $930,000 in a five fivemonth period for that medication to be dispensed and then annualize it and annualize it. We can do
it if we pay for it. We just have to pay for it. Um and that's the thing. It's like you have to fund it. So, Mr. Chair, I've just since in an effort to kind of apparently we have multiple options that they want feedback on. So, in an effort
to give you where I am on this particular option, I'm not willing to take that away from 241 people on top of the other people that are getting it because they need a co-orbidity and it is something that is prescribed to them
by a doctor and I do feel like at some point there is a savings there um in the longer term. We had the same conversation, Suzanne, if you recall, about starting the health clinic because what was told to us about the
health clinic is it wasn't going to save us anything and it was going to cost us a bunch of money. And what has happened is it has been a great benefit that the employees love and it has saved us on emergency room visits. So, I put this in that same category. And just for my
fellow commissioners, I'm not willing I'm not willing to take away a prescription benefit that is agreed upon by and prescribed by a doctor, of which I am not, especially considering we've had instances in the past where people
have been prescribed things that cost entirely more than that for one person. Right. So, that's where I'm in. And if I don't know if everybody else wants to weigh in on it before we move on to everything else, but there's other Well, yeah, there's other things that we need to consider. So, if we can
do that. Yes, there's I I would agree with Commissioner Adams. There's no doubt that we we shouldn't take that away from 241 employees or anybody else that works for this for this county, whether constitutional or
not. It's a life-changing thing. Sure, you can do it the hard way. You can go to the gym every day, run five miles a day, eat eat broccoli all day and and never never, you know, and do it that way. And
uh this is just for certain lifestyles, it's it's it's life-changing. And there's no doubt in my mind once these people reach their goal, they will you won't be incurring the expenses that you were incurring when they when they were overweight and had high blood pressure
and high cholesterol and all that sort of stuff. I think there's definitely definitely a benefit of that and I would be remiss to to take it to take it away to take it away from these folks. I guess the only question I have Suzanne
is is well a couple of them. Sure. The initial Blue Cross deal to go lock it in for two more years until I mean basically this is a proposal now where there there would end when when would our deal with them end? It would end uh
at the end of 2026 is our normal normal deal. We would be entering the last year of our our agreement and they um uh came at to us and said listen we really like the partnership. We are going to step up our game. We're going to put additional
money towards it and we're going to hold the rate for three years, a 3% increase at the end. Let me ask y'all, do you think this is plan is this is such a good plan that basically we kind of lock it in now or should we go out to bids next
year and see what the market holds for us? Great question. So, we think this is a competitive offer. Their rates are definitely within the benchmark range for what we see as far as fees and their wellness funding is very high. With that being said, you do have provisions that allow you to terminate early. So you're
not locked in with no options for four years. So in other words, we we could still go out to bid if we wanted to. Correct. So this doesn't lock us in for three years or anything like that. No. With the medical contract, there's no as long as you give them
proper notice, which is typically about 60 days, you can terminate early. Okay. I hope Let me see. I've had my issues with Blue Cross. And uh I'm you know, I'm not a I'm not a big fan, but I'm willing to give it a try if they're willing to up their game and do a little
better on that. So, Commissioner, the other item related to that is I think Suzanne mentioned is they replaced the customer service team that was working with us and then in this new contract they are proposing up to a 10% reduction
of administrative fees based on certain benchmarks if they're not made. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that let's go to the rates for a second. I know the gold plan for families going
at 42 and the single will go up five and no increase to the silver or single and I know you said it drives that because probably we have more s people on silver than we do gold. Is that why it is that why it's kind of
covering the cost or No, you have uh less um the the claims are lower on the silver plan. um you're what's our you how are we doing on that silver plan? So the silver plan generally runs better than the gold plan just because it has
the higher deductibles and out- of- pocket maximums and then there's going to be some adverse um adverse selection there. So typically the richer plans do attract the sicker population. Um and then alternatively you price them accordingly so that you're recouping some of that in contribution.
Gotcha. She mentioned the silver supplement. So that 42 and that $5. So that basically that $47.50 increase is going to is going to make a huge difference. That's per month. A month. Per month. I I know. Is it going to make a huge difference? So
as from a premium perspective, it's going to be um uh $1.72 million total between the employer contribution and the additional employee contributions and retiree contributions coming in. Okay. And we're but we're
saving money by going to Rightway. Yes. Versus that. So is it going to kind of offset it? So Suzanne, can you touch because I think an important point here is Yeah. The retirees though I think you everybody needs to hear this. It's fine because I'm going to tell you where I'm
going for this. I'd like to leave everything the same. That's where I'd like to be. The rate 400. So, just so you know, with with the proposed rate increases that were in the agreement and and our decision is um
I'll I'll kind of put it down to this one. Uh here we had we can increase premiums to capture money, right? We can get money to increase premiums, leave the benefit in there. We can uh remove the GLP1 benefit. we
can kind of maybe look at increasing co-ayments on the GLP-1 medication which are currently 50 and $65 uh for a one-mon supply. Right now the cost share is members are paying 5% of the cost of the meds through their cost
share and the plan's paying 95%. Um or uh if the individuals uh the board wants to keep the benefits current and the funding level status quo means no more money's going in. You're going in
with your eyes wide open. You realize the actuary has projected the cost. You've got the trend information. Uh but you're like, well, we've got the 25 million in the bank and we're okay if we fund it through that uh trust balance as
needed over the next plan year. Um uh and working with Lochen and Marathon to potentially evaluate options for the next plan year. um don't know what those options might be uh to give the value but I I
guess it's it's really a matter of deciding where the are any of the roads good the road of leave everything as it is and no rate increases and not dipping into savings would be the best road but it doesn't
exist that that's where I would like to be keep current benefits of funding level status quo monitor and reevaluate see where we go with this, what we're saving on prescriptions, what we're what we possibly saving on actually the GLP,
we're getting less cost for uh other stuff. That that that that's where I'm at. I'd like to see everything say status quo with the with the with the new enhancements with the other recommendations. Yes. With right way with all the other stuff. That's where
I'd like to be. Well, Mr. Sure. You can't be right. Captain might want to might be where he wants to be, but that's not that's not the reality. Um Tresa for you.
Um I think the uh generic is isn't it 14 to 17 years after the patent? Yes. And currently manufacturers are finding loopholes in that because you may have heard that the GOP ones are
being studied now just about everything. Sleep apnea, it was approved. Uh mental health and that will extend the life if they get those approvals on that. Right. And I've heard it called the miracle drug before. Yeah. Um, didn't I read in the backup Suzanne
that uh many of our employees are taking this uh up to a year and after a year they have reached the point. So that was a a general statement in regard to GLP1 utilization
that that uh Loctton's uh data research uh revealed and maybe you can explain that. Yeah, the average discontinuation rate of GLP-1s for weight loss is 52% of of patients taking it. And so have to start stop. Yes. And Suzanne, we couple
that with uh I would say overwhelming success of our clinic. Uh I think we're reaching John goals quicker than we thought with respect to our clinic. Um, have we seen any trends
uh specific with our clinic that are reducing cost on the non-cl clinic patients? So, not specifically. I know that locked in and uh Marathon because we had the change from Everside to Marathon, there's a new um data sharing
relationship that is is being worked through. Um and then once they start getting those claims data, they're actually going to be able to produce us some ROI uh data on that. Um if we were to say the 200 and something visits that we had to the to the health center and
we were to say, hey, what would be a normal cost for just a general office visit, you know, you could look at it that way, but um uh I I think and then we've got the lost time factor of it's it's very convenient for people to go
and get there. We we put that in a great location and people don't have to miss a lot of time from work to go to the doctor. So, it's safe to say that it's safe to say that that those two over 2,000 visits to the clinic have in fact saved us money and time. It's it certainly saved us time and it's I would
say that it's saved money from office visits as well. Right. And isn't it true with the with the GLP since I think trust you said 2022. Uh so essentially we uh we really don't have a track record on showing the
increase although we do know that we went from around 200 to 214 to now 241. So we're seeing an increase in the GLP but we don't have any historical data to tell us what it was in 2022. Uh the cost
I have a a list the participants uh no I didn't pull that. I pulled the cost. Um in 2022 you guys spent 700,000 23 1.22 million and 24 2.29 million. And when you we were talking
about people stopping the drug, what they found is that when folks stop the drug, they do regain the weight. So we would want them to stay on the medication. Right. So, so trust it's fair to say that um
similar to Commissioner Adams, um absent the price of the GLP, absent the price, we recognize the benefit. Absent the price, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Correct. They work. They work. They're just very expensive. But
it's unfortunate that uh the price are so exorbitant that um I think Johnny you said 12%. So about 88% of our employees are picking up the tab for 12% of the participants. Well our our total covered
lives are 3,900. So um it's it's about 6% of the total covered lives um but you that are currently received. So, but you mentioned that out of the 241, 214 were employees. 214 were either retirees or
employees. Correct. And the other additional are the members, a spouse or a and trust your your experience. Do you see uh in the next fiscal uh any signs that GLP prices would come down with
competition and other factors? We are not seeing that the prices are going to come down. No. Um, like I said, they're studying it for all these other conditions, so they're grabbing more market share. Um, the PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers are not pushing for
costs to come down because they are being paid exorbitant rebates from these drugs by the manufacturers to get on their formulary. So, not at this time. No. Have we seen any correlation uh with uh say knee, other
joint, different types of hip pains? Uh a decrease in that since uh 2022 osteo do we look anything at our osteo? No, we don't have that information available today. We could bring that as a followup. Yeah, I was going to say just in general, um, you know, we've
been trying to help employers figure this out to an ROI for paying for this and there just haven't been any studies yet that have proved that. When we took a look at our locked in book of business, we kind of saw um the opposite where we saw maybe like gastrointestinal
if a plan covers these because there are a ton of side effects for for a lot of folks, gastrointestinal being one. We've seen that category increase or maybe some emergency room visits because sometimes, you know, there's some bowel blockage and things that could happen. Um, but we're just not able to show yet.
I mean, we know like you're you spoke to a doctor, all doctors feel that if people lose weight, it's going to help them, right? We just haven't been able to show it in the claims data yet. But we are looking for that. I think everyone's looking for it. It's probably
too I guess the best example I was given was I don't know what the name of the drug is but those that have hepatitis at one point in time insurance companies self-funded or whatever would not fund the drug that you could take it I think what like for a period of a couple
months three months yes three months and then what they because it was like $100,000 a month and they're like no way and then they come to figure out after a long period at a time of studying it, then they determined like, wow, this is going to not going to hit, you know,
dialysis, you know, liver failure, all these other conditions over the life of the the patient. So, it was cheaper to pay the $300,000, you know, or upfront than deal with those long-term effects. So, there's probably just not enough historical data for the correlation of
the two, right? John, what did you share with me about the percentage of of either government entities or private that actually was it 38 3? Yeah, so there's there's 29% of self-funded groups are covering this right now and
interesting 38% of government service employers are doing it and I would say right now 38% are participating in yes are participating in covering GLP but right now but they're probably having similar conversations in all fairness. I talk about this every day with an
employer group and also we're seeing more large employers cover it. So if we look at 20,000 and above I would say 70% of those are covering it. Under that it's closer to what you said 30 40. Do you see that if somebody is taking this
do you see you know as they you mentioned or it was discussed earlier about the addition of the BMI I think you said Suzanne then a comorbidity do you see a transfer of that is there the possibility like well they're doing it and then well then
they're just going to add the other to it so they can get covered. Are you seeing that that doctors may be trying to get around the prior authorization? We are seeing that and some of the larger PBMs uh in
the past just had the doctor just had to uh check a box on an attestation form to say yes the patient is obese or yes the patient has diabetes looking at the diabetes GOP1s. But the PBM that you guys are with through RX Benefits, RX Benefits is doing an actual review of
the chart notes. So they are send they require a provider to send that in. They're actually looking through the chart notes to see if the person has tried something else and that there's been documentation, not all of a sudden it's just written in the chart notes. So what would Rightway's practices be going
forward? So if you're recommending that we move from RX to Rightway, are they going to be following something similar to ensure that it's not circumventing? Yes. Rightway does also check the chart notes. Yes.
And Rightway has pharmacists on staff. Maybe talk a little bit about Rightway. Yeah. Yeah. So they have pharmacists on what what they do when I mentioned they drive to the lowest net cost. So if a person feels a drug um and they have a a team of pharmacists and pharmacy
technicians that are constantly monitoring the claims. So what they would do if they still see a person is filling a drug that may have a cheaper al alternative a generic or if they've received one pill and if they look and they know that two pills would be
cheaper to achieve that one milligram they will contact either the member or the doctor to let them know there's something cheaper in that category that the patient could be switched to. And Suzanne I know you mentioned their app. Their app has a lot of that as well. If you go to the pharmacy and you fill your
prescription, you may get a notification from them an hour later that says, you know what, you filled that, but hey, there's something cheaper for you and for your plan. So, they are very technologically advanced as well as clinically advanced. Um, and you know, there are some categories like I
mentioned, if there's um something just really crazy where there's two pills that may cost 5,000 or one pill that may cost 5,000, but the person could take two for $1,000. Now, they may mandate the person change, but if there's a totally separate drug that's cheaper in
that category, then it could be up to the member or the doctor, and they don't have to change to the other drug. So, that's kind of some of the benefits we see with them. And Rightway actually is does the outreach as opposed to putting it back on the member. Yeah. To to jump
through the hoops. Rightway takes takes the lead on that. Correct. And John, this is uh kind of peripheral, but um as far as the employee benefit plan that we are proud of, vision,
uh dental, etc. Um, obviously we we probably don't want to advertise this, but we do think that in the long run, uh, perhaps this could save us in a variety of other things from surgeries to high blood pressure to
even the worst. So, we have to think about that as well. And again, uh, we wouldn't have this discussion if it wasn't for the cost. So, uh, not a doctor, didn't stay at Holiday in last night, but I will go
back to the conversation. Not a doctor, didn't stay at Holiday in last night. Uh, but I will go back to the conversation I had. And to I think Teresa Tresa, her point about most doctors will tell you the reduction in
obesity has numerous, you know, positive, you know, health benefits over the long term. Reduction of cardiovascular diseases. as I mentioned osteoporosis there a couple things there was the blood pressure even strokes so I
just I think we're at a point with this particular medication it would seem if you were kind of like a research person is like there's not enough data I mean there's data that exists that shows the reduction of obesity leads to blank
blank blank blank blank so now this one I mean how this sustains itself because I don't know how many people thought CO was the great shot and then all of a sudden how many people regretted it but right now it's this is something and I
can tell you that there in all honesty and I am not on it uh there are some employees that are very anxious about this and for some clients are making this decision more on a talent attraction and retention philosophy and not to do with the long-term effects that aren't known
at this time. So there may be that high discontinuation rate, the cost of the medication is high, but at the end of the day, do you want to disrupt your population and what's best for your members? Let me travel a whole different set of tracks. Okay. I apologize. No problem.
Okay. Doctors do prescribe medical marijuana. They do. Great benefits. How much is our coverage plan for that? Pretty sure we don't cover that. I know we don't cover that. And here here's the point. All of the
the testimonials about how uh great it is, there are some people that state that they cannot live without that medical marijuana. Okay? When you leave here today, you'll find as you're driving back to where you live, you'll
be able to identify the amount of people who are dependent upon and they're paying for that themselves. they go to these places with the leaves on it and that's choice. So we can hear about the the testimonials and if you need something
that has to be a beyond I I I get it. You know, we're none of us are medical practitioners, but we have a responsibility to be accountable
to the the public, to the the rateayer, to the employees, to we have to be accountable to all. And it just just a tremendous
offset here because when when Tresa can say um the this study is clear when you come off that drug you're back on it. So we're actually paying for you to be in a certain point. Okay. Well, the taxpayer
is paying and the rateayer is paying. But once you come off of that, you're not fixing the problem. All we're doing is masking the same way as what medical marijuana is doing, but we don't pay for that either.
It may be a good comfort, but is it a solution? I'll tell you this. I I heard of uh individuals who were dependent upon a certain eye drop that had to go through six months of a
challenge and doctor justification and doctor requests and then a another pre-authorization and then a diagnosis again and then finally
finally I understand that the payment for the prescription was then authorized. Okay. A delay in service to the members and
uh some members actually just bought their medication. So it's not just about GP1, it's it's about so many different things. just we're talking about GLP1 because it is
driving the cost factor and is projected to drive the cost factor off the charts. And as a matter of fact, after this conversation, I'm sure we're going to see a rise in the ticker very
soon. So regardless of what we do, people will be compelled, hey, got to get on the program while the program is available and we would see a skyrocketing number. I just anticipate
that and that has no medical value whatsoever. It's just a matter of human nature. Uh once again you Tresa when when you said that the evidence is there when you come off the drug you're snapping right back.
There are people that turn back barriiatric operations as well too and that's that's up to them. Uh but again that's why I mentioned a health program you know because they have
worked and we have done it and I think that's an option far beyond having everybody pay the price for something that's artificially inseminating a quality of life that's
perceived and not real. I just had a couple questions. Um, could you refresh my memory? What is the current uh trust balance? Is it that's one of the options is taking uh right there on the top bullet. 25.4 million.
25.4 million. Okay. Thank you. And um the other question is I think on the option before that one I'll call it option three. I believe there were four options. Uh the next yeah the next slide uh the top of that page is that the 5%
uh member cost share yes is that um you know how do you how do you arrive at that? Are there other medications that are in this category where they're very expensive? And this is just the GLP cost share for the uh
$930,000 uh plan expense million the the members paid 53,734 as it exists today through for that um period that January through May 2025 that's what members have paid towards that medication opportunities to adjust
that um there yes so we do have some plans that tackle this through cost share. The only problem with that is that if you increase what employees are paying, they'll simply meet their out-of- pocket maximum faster. And if they had already been meeting their out-of- pocket maximum, it may collect
some additional income at the start of the year. But had they already met that out-of- pocket maximum, it's not going to really move the needle, if that makes sense. Pun intend, but that's five months. Yes. Five months.
Yeah. Okay. No, I think that that that answers my question. Thank you. Yeah, I mean I hate to deny uh a covered medication. Um taking out of the trust balance really is our only option then. If you don't want to deny it, you're not
going to increase member call share. It's going to come out of the trust. Mr. Chair, I'll be glad to make a motion. Well, we want to hear this. Somebody's patiently waiting. I think he wants to speak and
I'd like to hear hear from anybody who has attended even though many said that they couldn't attend because they wouldn't want to violate HIPPA. Can I just mention one thing kind of based on what you said with uh regaining the weight? Um not so much with where
you guys are today with RX benefits and ESI, but if you were to move to Rightway, Rightway does partner with some of the external um weight loss or weight management programs. And some of those go as far as to require members to
get the drug from one of their doctors or be seen by one of their doctors. um they have to participate in some type of weight management as far as meeting with a dietician or you know prove that they're exercising or some other things in order to keep getting the medication.
So hypothetically, if you guys were to enroll in a program like that, a member would have to show that they have weighed themselves five times a month and then they would be given a check mark to say, "Okay, they are participating. They've met with the
dietitionian. They have access to the drug." So if you wanted to put more parameters around it, you could. Now, some of those programs may charge, you know, $50 per employee per month or per participating member per month. So, it
is an added cost. But at least that way, I've had some employer groups that put that in place, you know, that they're getting some help on the back end, so maybe they won't have to come back to the medicine if they tie trade off of it. Um, so that is another option. Just wanted to make sure I put that out
there. Could the employee be the one responsible for that? uh for the cost the program cost. No, it would Yeah, the employer I'm sorry the employee employer would be responsible. Yeah, I w I wish that was uh rejected earlier too because
that sounds a lot more appealing because it puts skin in the game for the individual and there is a proving point. I guess maybe that that eyedropped discussion uh might have compelled it because um as
I understand it took six months and uh having to have the doctor authorized the doctor to diagnose and then put in for the pre-authorization and uh while this process was taking place however if you
had have a system a frighte has a system where you know you have a little skin in the game and you have prerequisites if you're to have the continuence of the product. I'll just call it product.
I know exactly what eye drop you're talking about. And what it is, it has a prior authorization on it because what they look at is that they say that there are over- the-counter eye drops that can work the same as that particular eye drop. So, a lot of times with those
things, they require a member to try and fail, some that are over- thecounter, some others that are cheaper. Um, my son is on that same eye drop, so I had to go through that as well from a personal story. And I know that it does not, it works way better than ones that are on
the market um over the counter. But yeah, that one is more of a prior authorization have to try and fail. Um versus the weight management program would kind of be um like a gatekeeper where you know that people that are taking the medication are getting
assistance with possibly coming off the medication and how to make a lifestyle change. Familiar with that process. So if we had 241 people as of today would would uh as a caveat have to go to some type of
dietitionian that would be an extra cost to the employer. Um however that would put excuse me Kevin ready to check that would that would be some type of safeguard. Um John do you have an estimate I know we're we looked at
January through 531. I was curious about October, November, and December of 24 of 24 and the forecast for the balance of this fiscal. Well, I mean, I think she has it up there. Uh, and what we don't have is we
know it's 25.4 million in the insurance trust fund, and I think we said, uh, if the projections continue, we'd be looking at additional $1.9 million. Uh, so at 23.4 4 1.9 to 25.3.
Do we know Suzanne, do we know at the end of last fiscal um did we have to dip into the fund balance last year? No. No, we were um we have that earlier. The loss ratio is on the loss ratio is less than 100% the
first year. So when the loss ratio is less than 100% we're good. It's when it's over 100% that we The other thing I will add is that our health insurance trust fund has uh continue to increase.
I think for the second quarter we I know we're up more than what was projected in terms of balance. It was like Marcela sent me that information. Couple hund Hold on. Couple hundred,000 in the second quarter. I think we're up uh we were up 2.97%.
Um, it went up $735. That's what it was. Uh,3,312. So, as of March 31st, we were at the $25.4 million in that fund balance. So if we can move this forward, if we included some type of
dietitionian and we examine this for the balance of this fiscal and next fiscal, John, so we're talking 15 16 months. uh at this time next year, we come up
with some type of additional uh information that Tresa would would have that perhaps we don't have right now. And I would like to have some type of uh stop measure if we got over a certain
amount of employees because if this thing hate to say it becomes contagious and we're up to 341 this time next year we have to be in a position uh to make a policy significant policy change.
So I'm going to ask both of you how has that been implemented elsewhere? something to that effect where John could you say that again? I'm gonna ask the our our insurance consultants, our brokers, how has that been implemented elsewhere where like mid plan year you
say wait this is like this has gone up 500% you know h how has that been done and is there any legal implications of stopping something that was approved at the beginning of a planned year? So I
actually have a large employer group here in Florida. It's there about 12,000 lives that covered weight loss medications and they've decided to stop covering for July 1st and that's mid plan year for them. Um they consulted with their Orisa attorney. They had to prepare some type of documents that went
out to the employees to give them three months notice is what they were told by their uh attorney and then they had to update their uh benefit guide to state that in their summary plan description. But yes, we have seen it um happen mid year. So, you know, we could if you guys
wanted to say, you know, if the cost went up by another 500,000, we could monitor it on a monthly basis or so um for that or, you know, number of people, however you want to look at it. And your recommendations for the board
and ourselves, I mean, on how what would be the best way? Is it is it a monetary threshold? Is it a number of participants threshold? as far as when to make that decision what as far as what would be that place
where you would want to remove 241 now I don't everyone's different I would say yeah I mean it's a very client by client unique decision that that requires a lot of different factors as we've discussed today um I would say it's a combination
of cost but also disruption to your members what I would offer, you know, board members, uh, is that we would to the point if if you did the weight management plan is maybe put together an internal sta, uh, for lack of a working
group, you know, with the internal staff, HR representatives from our constitutionals because they they have employees that are using it as well. Representatives are locked in. Maybe we get the health care professional, whether it be from Marathon or some other, you know, doctor that might
participate and provide us some objective input and then I just have to believe you may want an employee or two, you know, participating to where we can evaluate and formulate recommendations for the board that would, you know, so we could try to control it while
offering a benefit, you know, to continue something that's helping them in terms of their healthy lifestyle, but also recognizing that at some point in time, you know, it's And where do you tip the scales?
Tip the scales. Oh, sorry. I didn't mean it that way. You know, I didn't say sit on the stand on the scale. So, I think that's a little bit like the last bullet, John. Well, you know,
uh, did you want to speak? Did you want to speak? Do you want to speak about this topic or the topic in general? About the topic in general. Yes, sir. Okay. Because you've been very patient. You've been here since the very beginning. And if you look around the
room, there's not too many people waiting to speak. And I just wanted to give you the opportunity Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought I was just going to spend the evening here, but it I'm glad that didn't happen. You have done that on many occasions during
hurricane. I have. So, uh, my name is Nathan McCollum, Sebastian, Florida. And, um, I'm not here to talk about your medication. So, you all can take a break from that from right now. I want to talk about Blue Cross. And I want to suggest to you that you listen to the
presentation that's been made by staff three years ago, two years ago when we were renewing Blue Cross and everything's great. Everything's working great. They assure us that customer service issues are taken care of. It's the same presentation and it's the same problem. I will tell you that I sent you
all a packet of information a couple months ago that went over my difficulties with Blue Cross and my difficulties with what they were doing. you cannot get in touch with anybody at that agency. There's a lot of problems with them and nobody has even suggested,
oh, let's look at somebody else. Let's take a look at somebody. Commissioner rose his hands up. But, um, the reason I'm bringing this up is I looked at the the contract that's in here and there's there's some clever language that's in here that you all need to be aware of
because I don't know if we wrote it or if Blue Cross wrote it. For instance, under your performance measurements on item D, the first item says that those there's a time limit for the call center to answer calls. Do you know what
happens when you call the call center? Yes. They ask you your name, your account number, and what's your question? And then you get thrown into the whirlpool of nobody answers. Let me connect you to this person. 20 minutes later, you're still on hold. It rings.
It rings. 20 minutes later, their performance. If you want the performance measurements to mean something, get a performance bond on Blue Cross. Do not go with the financial uh arrangements that they're making because they don't have to report that to anybody. If you
want that to truly be punishment for not doing their customer service, you want a performance bond because bond companies have to report that. Blue Cross doesn't want that. I would highly suggest that you consider doing a performance bond if you're going to stay with Blue Cross.
Um, Miss Bole mentioned Omar. I've never talked to Omar. I've talked to a lot of other people, but I also know that people at Blue Cross move every four to five months. So, what may be Omar today may be Betty tomorrow, maybe Sam the next six months. It's a very difficult
process to keep up with. I can tell you that probably more people have had problems with Blue Cross than the people you've been talking about today with the medications and they're afraid to bring it up because they for lack of a better term they feel intimidated. They shouldn't be and most people will
listen. But the reality is that everybody's having them. Even commissioners already talked about the problem. Um, they're talking about the uh there's also parts in here that deal with the HIPPO violations and HIPPO
things. And it should be noticed that in there, this contract is giving ideas to where the employee no longer has control over their medical information. It says that the Blue Cross will report to the me to the employer to the agency.
That's a condition of the contract. That's not a condition of me saying I don't want any of my uh medical information going anybody else. It's in there that they will do that. That they will share it with they use the term subcontractors. So I don't know if
that's an issue for the commission or not. To me with the other things that are going on with Blue Cross, it's probably a minor issue, but it is something that's in this contract. I'm more concerned with the performance measurements because staff should have recognized that that's not going to
accomplish the problem. And if staff put that in the performance measurements, then we've got a problem there. But when you're sitting there talking about call centers, I don't expect you all to know call centers. You've got tremendous amount of things to think about. I don't expect you to remember those things.
Agencies remember call centers. Blue Cross knows what the call center is and they know that something is going to answer that phone within 25 or 30 seconds. Whether it be an automatic attendant or a person, hit one for this, hit two for that, it'll be answered and they're going to look like, "Oh, we
don't have any problems." Yes, you do. Because you're never going to get anybody. In my situation that I presented to the commission a couple months ago, I went through item by item by item as to the timeline of things that were going on and how you never get an answer from Blue Cross. They'll say,
"We're going to get back to you. We're going to do this. We're going to do that." You have to stimulate the conversation again. You have to send them an email and say, "I haven't heard from you in two weeks. You said you were going to get back to me." And then something comes and says, "Oh, yeah. We're we're still working on we'll get
back to you." Then you got to start the whole process again. Then they have a great thing called the independent reviewer. It's a physician that reviews your your items for if you have a a condition that they're not approving or
something. They will send it to what's called an independent provider that does an independent review of your situation. They did that with me in the case that I presented to you. And I got a wonderful report from the independent provider that said there's nothing wrong with my
foot. My foot wasn't even the issue. It was to review MRI findings in my spine and it says the injury to your foot's fine and everything's great. I called Blue Cross immediately to Mr. Apple and he said that can't be right and he
looked at all of a sudden that report disappeared from my Blue Cross but I had the email that has it. So I have it. So when they say that never happened I do have that. So, I don't even know now if we can uh talk about independent contractors, how reliable they are because they're clearly copying and
pasting things. The reason I'm bringing all this up to you today, and you all are familiar with this, if you read that information, is that we made no progress in getting the treatment that I need. When I started this process, I was just walking like this. Now, you see, I'm
carrying this. I'm walking crazy and I'm gonna have to have surgery done in Palm Beach County. That's okay. I gave the county and I don't know when I'm if I'm talking to the commission or to staff a way out to take care of this. In your contract, your
current contract with Blue Cross section 5A, it says that the county or the employer has the right to manage the medical account. You could have just picked up the phone, called Blue Cross, and said, "Look, it's going to cost this much. Now he's got to get an 800 thou
800% increase in what's going to happen. You were just talking about all the numbers that are going up. I can save it to you if Blue Cross would just approve the original thing that I was going to have done. Instead, they're sending me to Palm Beach County. They're going to
send me down there. take your tax money, my tax money to Palm Beach County rather than keeping it here in Indian River County with the providers that provide a service here in our county. I'm going to pay Palm Beach County with tax money because Blue Cross couldn't do that and
I'm going to pay it at a rate of 800% more than if I had something done here. I just bring this up to you. that my situation is going to be never ending. But I bring it up to you because I don't want you to think it's this great rosy picture. If you're looking at just the
finances like you did today, it's very likely everything looks very well. I'm sure there's other competitive medical companies that could pro provide the same service at the same price. But please do not think that the procedure that any employee in this county goes through when they're talking to Blue
Cross or trying to get something approved is smooth. there's no problem with it. And and if you don't believe me, go back to the last two, three, four years when these same things were presented and everything's great, everything's working fine. It's not. And in the meantime, I'm having to pay the
price for it. But you're going to have to pay 800% more for what's going to have to be done simply because section 5A cannot be enacted in that contract. I thank you very much. I know you all have had a long day, but I wanted to make sure these comments were in the record before you give consideration to Blue
Cross that you may want to go out to bid. Bid's probably the wrong term. It's probably an RFP or something like that, but you may want to look at some other companies that are going to provide you better customer service. And I'd be curious to see if Omar is still in the same position in six months. Thanks very
much. Have a great evening, Mr. McCullum. Thank you for your uh input. uh that has been an experience that has been shared by others. I could say that I'm aware that's the case uh
directly. Um it is very confusing. Um I understand that we are dealing with GHI from uh another state. Um, and while I've been told that that has no impact, it
has a lot of impact. It does because they're not communicating with the practitioners. They're having a challenge with associating the coverage and you've identified it. I
have to tell you what, I have witnessed it firsthand. What? and have heard many others have the same challenge and some have suggested that we're dealing with
uh was it GHI North Carolina the platform is based out of South Carolina South Carolina correct what we we we don't have one here you don't want to go down it's it's a never ending I we don't have one here so the local
service team is in Florida and then the blue across Blue Shield of South Carolina is where their operating services are as far as the platform that they run off of which is considered their national platform. So the platform uh the communication is going back and
forth up there and they're just there's such a breakdown in communication and it's very frustrating for the patients the the members that we serve. It's very stressful. I have heard from them. I've
witnessed it. It's it's there. It's it's a clear and present danger to engage by calling. It's almost like calling about your internet service. And it, you know, it's like a cable company. The cable
company. I ma made the analogy earlier. It is, oh well, try this. Well, what about that? And then press two, press four, press three, and I'm connecting you. And after those first initial two hours, you either give up or you go see
another doctor to see if there somebody else can handle this. Omar's at the cable company now. And now that's a cost factor. That's a cost factor to our employee who now has to pay another co-pay, another visit, get another
opinion to try to put it through. And I'm sorry, you're not going to qualify. I will just offer up from industry perspective. This is the exact reason that many of our clients choose to go with a third-party advocacy and navigation service. So health advocate
is kind of the version of that that you have today. Moving to rightway would be an elevated higher touch version of that where they would essentially act as the front door to benefits. So now instead of dealing with what this gentleman just described going direct to the insurance company,
you start with rightway to navigate you as far as medical bills, services that aren't being covered and they are the ones who become the go-between between you and the health insurance company. So it certainly takes an element of that frustration away from the member and
lets them work directly with this navigation and advocacy platform. Mr. Chairman, I I've I forgot to mention one other thing if I could real quick um because I know you need to keep going. There's this is also including the company, the Lantern Company. And just
so you know, the Lantern Company was very nice when I talked to them on the phone. They were great. You didn't have you didn't phone in fall into a whirlpool with them. However, their recommendation was that I see a pediatric neurosurgeon. So, needless to say, when I called the pediatric neurosurgeon, they said, "There's
nothing we can do for you. You're you're 60 years too old. So that was the recommendation from Lantern. Pediatric sir. Yes sir. So well you do look great. You do look young. Not young enough to qualify. What can I say? Good
health. It's it's just trust me. Well and and I'm going to say it again. When you I truly encourage you all to get a performance bond with Blue Cross and not just performance measures because that has impact on them globally when they're doing work. They may not want to agree to it. And if they don't want to agree
to it, ask yourself why aren't they wanting to agree to it if they made all these great changes. Thank you, sir. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your patience. And Nate, if you can keep your tie on this hurricane season, please. He's wearing a tie today, so I think we're good for today. But we heard rain.
You'll be Yeah, I I'll give you the week. So, thanks. Don't look at me in July, August, and September. Former emergency management director. He's a hurricane expert. Yes. If it
happened, he knows it. Um, and so once again, uh, Trese, you're saying that and you're saying that rightway is the answer to two of the biggest
challenges we've had here. And one is service with prescriptions and spec a specific prescription that there is a step program to ensure that it's not abused.
Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. And we're going to get better communication. Yeah. Rightway is a PBM now, but they started out as a navigation company. So this was their bread and butter first. So if you want to kind of Okay. Yes. So
that was the portion I was speaking of. Um and so the contract that we had recommended includes both. It includes them as a pharmacy benefit manager as well as replacing health advocate and taking over the advocacy and navigation. And they will correlate. We still have
our um one-stop shopping down the street as well. Uh yes. and they will have to cooperate with that program too. Uh can you explain the transition on that? The
transition to rightway. Yes. So I'm going to turn that over to Tresa because she's very familiar with it. Yeah. So for the implementation process, they usually like about three months um at to to get started on it. But what we would do is, you know, they would
receive a file from your current prescription benefit manager. Uh they would take, you know, if there's any prior authorizations that are in place today, they'll look at know, they'll send out letters to members who may have to change to another drug because it could be excluded on their formulary or
just letting members know where they would get their specialty medication. now. Um, so they do all of that ahead of time and then it would be a three-month process of calls. We'll have Suzanne, Marcela on, we'll be on all those calls. Um, just kind of going through how we
want to build the benefit. So, if we want to take a look at, you know, covering weight loss and also including one of those programs that I mentioned around the weight loss um n or one of the others that they partner with, we can do that at that time. But it's a
it's about a three-month process and every aspect of the plan would go through Suzanne to okay, say yes, say no, we want to do that, we don't want to do that. They have some extra, you know, kind of different programs. your KA RX could probably go away because Rightway
has a program inhouse that they use for that. Um, so yeah, it's a very detailed Rachel and I have a couple other clients that have been through it. Very detailed implementation process. So you're stating that okay, they'll
have full access to all the prior oaths and everything else. So there should be no fear if transition change occurs that we're going to be on the phone pressing
two pressing four going to two more doctors as I said earlier and then getting that done doing an appeal process running to HR and speaking with you and then because that's exactly what happened when we moved to East Scripts.
Yeah. express many times. Many times I'm not just talking about one individual. I'm talking about many individuals had frustrations. Would that be accurate? It would be. Yes. Thank I just wanted to make sure because transition with
healthcare is transition is hard. Harder than anything else. One of the things that we also really appreciate about the rightway offering is the fact that the member is going to be able to open up and see their prior authorizations right
right on their phone. They'll have access to the status of their medications. It'll be right through the app. So, it's it's a very robust um system that allows a member to to not have to call a number to find out what's going on. it it actually communicates
and you can actually do your chat and send in a concern and snap the you know this claim is is they're billing me for something they they it says that the coverage denied it and um many instances of those by the way are still believe it
or not our members went and gave their card to their provider. The copy was made, but the provider billing person still sent it to the 1996 address. Yes. For the old. So, we're still
experiencing those things. So, Rightway is going to help put they'll they'll find out the details. Do you they'll they'll handle the call for the member. They'll reach out to the provider and say, "Do you have the right billing information?" And and and be able to speak the language that navigators do.
Whereas the poor employee that doesn't even know the language of billing, you know, they're they're they can't they're not super successful communicating with folks. But Rightway will be our advocate in that regard and help our help our members. Yeah, I think with you guys
selecting rightway for both the navigation and the PBM, it'll make the PBM change a little easier because then members can call the navigation side and still be advised of the PBM change as well. Now, not saying there won't be a
Walgreens or a Costco that will take the member's old card and still use, you know, the old information and run it through the wrong insurance, but at least that member could bring up their card on their phone now or, you know, they could call rightway or chat with them on their phone right there to say,
"I'm having some trouble at the pharmacy. What's going on?" So, not saying it'll eliminate all problems because there is human error in a lot of this. Um, but I think it'll be a little easier as far as um, just with the technology that they have. But you're
right about Express Scripts. Um, they have some of the worst customer service about Express Scripts. Just the transition. The transition. Okay. I mean, once it got there, it was okay. It it it works. Okay. But that was it actually trumped the whole controversy
over our uh, waste containers pickup. Oh boy. Uh there was more calls with that as well. Okay. Yeah, I think Tresa and I can both attest to having participated in many many pharmacy implementations over our combined 40 plus years of industry
experience and I would say Rightway has been the top two as far as the smoothest implementation with the least employee noise just because of their hightouch model. Um they engage very quickly and they resolve the issues that do occur very quickly. That sounds amazing. Did I
hear somebody make a motion? Well, we have to the motion. Sorry. We need to decide upon or support the transition into one organization and we also need to that
would be changing our health coverage and we also have to look at what's to be included. Correct. So, we're not proposing to change health coverage. It's not covered, right? It's management.
Yeah, I've got a lot. It's it's it's a big one. Um there's Yeah, there's I can break it down into individual ones. Would that be easier? Yes. Okay. So staff recommends and respectfully requests the board of county commissioner approve staff's recommendation for the plan year October
1st 2025 September 20 September 30 2026 to include number one amending our ASO services with Blue Cross Blue Shield for increased wellness funds and a rate hold for two additional years reduced access
fees and performance agree guarantees that would be the first one. Are we taking these individually? Yes. Okay. So, that's the first decision. Yes. Reduced access fees. Remind us. Do you have a slide with this on it? Um, it's
one of our attachments. It was the comparison. It's kind of long. Didn't know if it was part of your long as a whole. No, it's going to uh basically the it's an access fee percentage. Um, they have two networks.
It's a PO and a traditional. Our current rate is 2.02% 02% for the PO and 3.79 for the traditional. They're reducing it to 1.84 for the PO and 3.31 uh for the traditional. And if I
understand that's for the out of area access fees with these relation the blues go nationwide. So Florida Blue it, you know, it might be the Blues in Kentucky, the Blues in Colorado. So these are the access fees that um are on top of claims costs. That's correct. And
those were all assumed in the projections. In the future, we'll do these by numbers really continuing life, disability, EAP, vision, critical illness, accident benefits, and no increase in premiums.
Selecting rightway to provide navigation and advocacy benefits in place of a health advocate. That's some sense. [Music] I I think the benefit of doing them one
by one is because when it comes to number two regarding the pharmacy benefits. Yes. And the issue of GLP, we I'll modify that based on our conversation. The only question I would have related to that is what is the what has been
your experience and the you know Mr. McCullum's comments about performance bond. I would fall back on that you're not locked in to a four-year contract that you can market and move with any plan year and then also with rightway
essentially uplifting Bluec Cross Blue Shield customer service and being an alternative for members one year. In other words, see how Rightway does and if they don't meet our expectations, institute
some type of performance bond or go out for bid. Go out for bid. Yes. So we have to give rightway a chance. So it starts off with amending our uh ASO services agreement with Blue Cross Blue Shield providing the increased wellness
funds. The rate hold for two additional years. the reduced access fees and the performance guarantees. That's the first moved. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? Opposed?
Mr. Chair, Mr. Mr. Chairman, members of the board, the second would be transition pharmacy benefits to rightway um including coverage for GLP1 weight loss benefits provided employees participate in the
weight management program. Um so that would be that correct? Yeah, I'd say you could even break those two up as far as we're going to transition to rightway. you can keep GOP1 coverage and then we could also add
the weight management program and we could do that during implementation. So I'll revise that to transition pharmacy benefits to right way. Return to the board. Okay, I'll make that motion. Second there. John, are you including any time
frame? So, so we will monitor I said we'll put together a working committee and we'll with Suzanne and locked in and invite the addition the appropriate HR representative constitutionals and we'll if we can get that up and running between now and October 1st so we can
monitor as it gets implemented. Does that work for you Suzanne and locked in? It's Rachel correct? Yes, it's Rachel and that works for us. All right. Yes. And is there any stop gap measures? Do you want to have a first
meeting to to discuss it and bring it back to the board and what the potential number would be? That we can do that. That work for you board, Mr. Chair, members of the board. So we're not, in other words, we'll we'll have a meeting uh so we're not throwing the
switch today. Correct. So we're not being asked just arbitrarily to make a number on the dis right now. We can get all the HR representatives together, the working group together and come back with a recommendation like hey if we go over here this would this is what would
happen. I think that's mostly and this will allow us to kind of close out the fiscal year, see where we're at. You know, as we close out the fiscal year, September 30th, get the claims. There's a claims run out. It's not
really the 90 days like it used to be back in the day. Claims hit pretty quickly. But once we know where we're at, how far above budget we are, and then identify a a threshold that we think could be sustainable without
putting us at risk for the next year and bring that back to the board to approve that threshold, whatever makes sense. And um then Loct will work with us uh to monitor that. and then they'll trigger it and say you're there or you're
getting there or you need to look at it and then we would bring it back to the board. Um if we needed to modify the GLP1 coverage uh because it was going way high. That's my understanding. Is that is that the understanding of the board as well? Yes. And I would take it
even a step further. I'm sure we can work with locked in and HR to have a monthly report that we could provide to the board that would be HIPPA compliant so we can monitor those expenses. Yes, we can add that to our current
reporting. All right. I think you need to vote on that one. Okay. So, we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Opposed.
Mr. Chair, members of the board, number three would be to renew the dental ASO with aas to include modifying coverage for annual cleanings from once every 6 months to two times per year. Moved. Second.
Any discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. Mr. Chair, members of the board, number four would be moving Cobra and flexible spending account services to lively me.
I move. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? Opposed? Motion carried unanimously. Mr. chairman. The next would be the fifth one would be the ending diabetes management program effective September
30th, 2025 and transitioning care to Marathon Health Center. So moved. Sorry. Kind of left a little long. Any discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carried unanimously. Number six. Mr. Chair,
members of the board be extending our agreement with Lantern for elective surgery. So moved. Second. Take a second. Take a second from Joe uh from Commissioner Aman. Uh any further
discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. Mr. Chairman number seven would be to continue life disability E8 employee assistance program vision critical illness and accident benefits with no increase in premiums.
Wait a minute. I think you missed extending our Yes. agreement with Lantern. I thought I just did that one. No, we just did that. Okay. I didn't hear you. Captain, what's the next? It's continuing life disability immer employee assistance
program vision critical illness and accident benefits with no increase in premiums. So move we have a motion by commissioner Adams second by commissioner man. Any further discussion? All in favor?
Opposed? Motion carried unanimously. Mr. Chair, members of board the next one is selecting rightway to provide navigation and advocacy benefits in the place of health advocate. So moved second. Any further
discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. Mr. Chairman, the next and Mr. and members of the board. The next one is adding voluntarily voluntary paid employee paid group hospital indemnity identity theft
and legal coverage as recommended by staff. Moved second. Any further discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries unanimously. And the last one, Mr. chairman, members of the board. Number 10, authorizing staff
to take the necessary actions in support of implementing the approved actions and authorizing the board chairman to execute necessary documents related to the approved benefits after review and approval by the county attorney for legal sufficiency. So moved.
Second. Just throw a second. Okay, we have a Everybody gets motion by Commissioner Adams, seconded by Commissioner Moss. Any further discussion? All in favor? I opposed. Motion carries
unanimously. I think we've staff. Thanks you, Mr. Chair. Yes. Thank you, commissioners. I thank staff and uh thanks Rachel. Thank you so much. Rachel, uh with that uh we have now
completed this item. Uh there's just uh one more. Is there's anybody here that wishes to speak about any topic whatsoever? Go while you can. Suzanne, the mic is yours. Good afternoon,
commissioners. My name is Anthony Gerano. I live at 1435th Avenue in Rock Ridge. You may remember me and this from last month's meeting. where I came here to present our
findings relative to the drainage crisis in Rock Ridge. At the beginning of that meeting, I witnessed a touching appreciation ceremony for the police and then another one for the county employees and all of their wonderful equipment that was showcased right outside the building
here. None of it, however, has made its way over to our neighborhood to clean the canals that have not been maintained for 20 years. Commissioner Moss, the balance of these comments will be directed to you as you
offered your assistance last month, and this is your district. We requested that our work in the form of this binder be entered into the public record. You unequivocally stated twice that anything presented to you in these meetings is
automatically entered into the public record. After several requests, that still has not happened. Having learned from the county ombbudsman that the binder had been delivered from your office to the office of the county attorney. Excuse me. Sir, you just said
it hasn't been entered into public record. That doesn't mean that we advertise it that we uh deliver I'm just stating the fact sir. I I know. I understand. But you either going to have to tone it down or tone it out. Okay. Really, we have been asking our
neighborhood. I'm not gonna have you attack attack attack a commissioner in any way, shape, or form. Attack anybody, sir. You have a challenge. I think you are. I'm not attacking anybody. I think you are. Okay. Reevaluated, Mr. Chair. I I can address that. I think
there's a misunderstanding on this part about I believe I have three minutes no to present something. So, I'm happy to address that. Go ahead. Do I have three minutes? Please go ahead. Thank you. Floor is yours, sir. Having learned from the county
ombbudsman that the binder had been delivered from your office to the office of the county attorney, we invited members of the county attorney's office by printed invitation to join us in our neighborhood to view the affected
areas. Our invite was declined, so that never happened either. We showed you in this binder that the county is the rightful owner of the NL4 Canal or the Third Avenue Canal as you refer to it and
requested that you send crews to fix it. That still has not happened. Been 20 years we've been asking for this. It's still not happened. Yesterday I was presented this piece of paper which I would like to give to everybody. One for you also in the
county record for the public record, excuse me. I want you to know that I agree with that piece of paper 100%. And I'll wait for you all to get a copy of it. On the paper, it stated that the Third Avenue Canal NL4 has never been
maintained by the county. And you are correct. It has never been maintained by the county. That's exactly why I'm standing here to get you, the county, the rightful owner of the canal, to maintain the property, the
canal. After that, there are 12 streets listed on that piece of paper in Rockidge. And as I understand it, your position is that the reason for the continued flooding is due to a lack of pipes and/or swelles. Let's remember it
was the county who installed those very same pipes and swailes after the hurricanes in 03 and 04. So we're now adjusting our ask of you. In addition to having the NL4 canal cleaned, dredged, and reconnected for your legally binding 2006 resolution, we are now requesting
that additional pipes and swailes be installed where your piece of paper says that they're missing or inadequate. [Music] I also want you to know that our binder is being submitted to the media this week and that electronic copies have been sent to the
neighborhood. I also want you to know that I will be in attendance at every county meeting from this point forward using my three minutes to help advocate for our neighborhood. All of this along with me will go away once the county
decides to fulfill its duty to the citizens and our neighborhood is no longer needlessly endangered by inaction. I was going to plead here for somebody to please come and
help us, but I'm not going to do that. I'm simply going to ask a question of Miss Moss. Miss Moss, excuse me. This presents a back and forth conversation. It's not. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the county takes responsibility for this canal as the
owner as we've shown in these papers. I have I have a meeting with Colleen Jennings next Friday. It's already set up. Maybe she told you that. I I emailed that to her yesterday in preparation for that meeting. And it's my understanding and the county attorney can address it
in greater detail, but uh we do not have a legal requirement. That's my understanding. That was uh Mr. Hicks. I'm having a hard time hearing you, but I'm right here. We do not have a legal requirement. By and large, the county does not have a legal requirement to
maintain a canal that's in the county. That's my understanding, sir. That's my understanding, sir. I think you would want to get that directly though from the county attorney's office because it's a legal question. I'm not an attorney. It's a legal question. Yes.
Okay. What What exactly is the legal question? What? We have We have a very simple question for you. Very simple question. Can somebody please come and clean out our canals that have not been maintained for 20 years? How do we get that accomplished? been banging my head on
the wall for five years to get the Florida Department of Transportation to come out and they finally came out and cleaned the 16th Street Canal. We have begged for the Third Avenue Canal NL4 to be to be maintained and and we get
stonewalled every at every chance. If you can tell me that you're not the rightful owner and you can show me who the rightful owner is, I'll be glad to go bark up their tree and leave you alone. Well, that's what we're going to try to establish who's should be responding. I appreciate your help,
council. Yeah. I mean, my department at uh the request of Commissioner Moss did research this. Um and the canals were constructed during the creation of the Rock Ridge subdivision were never turned over or accepted by the county for any
maintenance or ownership. Um we've never maintained them. Um it's when you look at the plat um there's some utility easements uh but uh no no dedication to the public of the
drainage responsibilities there. So I I disagree with the conclusion that the county's the rightful owner of the canals or is legally responsible for maintaining them. Has anybody looked in the book of the documents that we placed in the book that show that the countyy's the owner?
There's nothing in the book that shows that the county is There's nothing in the book that shows the countyy's I did see a resolution that the board supported your neighborhood's efforts to try to get something done to help you with this issue, but I never saw in that
resolution that the board took any ownership of the canals or any responsibility for maintaining them. It's a canal that's in the county of Indian River. How is it not owned by the county of Indian River? There are many canals and swailes and drainage
easements that are not the possession of the people of Indian River County. They are owned by the water management district or uh FDOT. Uh they they are owned by the state. They are owned by the specific
development that they are encumbered in. So there are a number of ways we run into this dilemma not just with your situation but with many situations because all swailes all all drainage
easements all drainage is not created in the same manner for the same purpose and it is not governed by your local government. Who is the owner? If you're telling me you're not the owner and you're not responsible for it,
who is? It's my understanding that Rockbridgeidge is. Rockridge is that's that's strange because when I had conversations with Road and Bridge and they told me that we Rockbridgeidge had the repairarian rights to the canal and I said fine, I'll get a backhill and go
over there and clean it out myself, I was told I wasn't permitted to touch it. You can't have it both ways. I need to know who owns the canal so that we can have our neighborhood cleaned properly and we can stop being
placed in danger unnecessarily. It's a very simple thing. It's a very simple thing. Have you made an appointment with the county attorney's office to discuss is that what I need to do? Probably would be helpful. Let's do that. we can delineate the
responsibility, accountability for each one of the swelles, canals, right ofways that you're discussing. Okay. About two weeks ago, we requested a meeting with the with the uh county attorney and we were turned down. You
did invite Mr. Hicks to your home to discuss the issue. If you want to come into my office, um I'll probably tell you the same thing I just told the board, but I'm happy to meet with you. You're happy to meet with
me. Excuse me. I find it hard to believe that the people that we elect are not supporting us. No, that's that's not it, sir. That's not it. No, we just can't assume accountability and responsibility for objects in which
you're not in the possession of the people of Indian River County. You're not responsible. Sorry, I can't hear you when you're not near the mic. Perfectly fine if you're not responsible. You're not the owner. We are what we are requesting is that you tell us who the owner is so that I can go have that
conversation with them. I can't just be told for for six or seven years now that you are not responsible for a count for a canal that's in your county. I can't just continue to be told that and not given
the answer as to who owns I don't think anybody here told you that for the past six or seven years. I have been told that for years. So the sir, I don't know by who. Sir, it what the attorney just said is that the canal and that you will
be that's why we suggested setting a meeting with her. So you could go over these questions in depth. They're not going to come to your house. You need to call and set a meeting in their list of 24 questions in their office. Okay. You didn't get an answer to any of them. Okay. If I can just you can just So what
she just said was that that canal was part of the platted subdivision of Rock Ridge and it was never deed to the county or anybody else. So that means at this point it is the responsibility of the platted subdivision of Rock Ridge.
Now whether there was an HOA in the past that was dissolved or whatnot, that's something that would have to be looked into and some legal background done on it. But that's what we are trying to tell you. You want to know who owns it. The
platted subdivision of Rock Ridge and how come I'm not permitted as a as a because to do any kind of work on drainage, you have to go through St. John's Water Management District or Indian River Farms or any of those things if I'm the one if my neighborhood is the one who's responsible for it. Why do I need to go through? We have to go
through them whether if we want to work on our own canal. But this because it affects other receiving water bodies. What you do in your canal will reect affect other water bodies. Our our canals have been affected from 2006 on by other water
bodies that this county has allowed even after a 2006 resolution that stated we will not continue to put other water into this system. That's not what that said. That's not what that said. That's exactly what it says. Okay. Well,
I think we've heard and I think you're going to speak with the attorney can set up a meeting and and go from there, but and get a true mapping of of what we're talking about so that we can address it or you can address it with the proper
responsible party. That's what I need to know. I think it sounds like it's going to happen that you're going to see our attorney. I will call your office and make an appointment. Thank you so much. Thank you,
Fred. There's only one other person in the room. It's you. You want to say anything? No. We're not the only one. We Council Fred Jones, thank you for being here and enduring the meeting. Seeing no further business, this meeting
is adjourned.