Okay. We're getting ready to start. Care about 30 seconds. All right. I didn't. I didn't realize that gavel be so powerful off to start stuff to bang it more often on any I want tension. Okay. Well, welcome to the JANUARY meeting of the environmental Sustainability Committee. Very excited to see so many people here. I'm going to spend a few minutes in the second term, a setting the stage and talking about this committee and what it is we do teeing up our speakers for the night. But before I do that, let me ask the members. We have both members of the committee and guests here tonight. I'm going to ask them to introduce themselves all at the same time. But as we go along, if you could just note, if you're a member of the committee or if you're a guest
tonight and I'll start over here with answering. MR. CHAIRMAN Josh representing district. 21 on the far Southwest side here as a guest counselor tonight. Thank you, MR. COUNCILMAN Run gives District 8 and I'm a guest tonight. Thank you, Mr. Vice-PRESIDENT Maggie Lewis District 5 and guess. Thank you, MISTER Vice PRESIDENT A district 15 and I am a guest. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Michael Paul Hart representing District 20 and I'm a committee member. Thank you. MISTER Chair Jesse Brown District 30 in the near side and I am also a committee member. Thank MARCH Eric Roberts has worked for it on the committee members. Well. Thank you, MISTER. Vice PRESIDENT. I am Bree and Illini from district 2 on the North side and I am also a committee member. Thank you,
MR. Even all DR. Carlos Perkins District also committed member. You Vice PRESIDENT And in Unison District 14 committee member. Thank you to the members of the committee and our guests. It's great to have so many counselors here. Instead. This topic thanks to so many people braving the cold today. As I headed down for the meeting, I think my phone said it was about 11 degrees. So thanks for your commitment to Indianapolis and public policy. It's been just a second talking about this committee for folks who haven't attended before and another background. So the environmental Sustainability Committee, what we do is focus on complex, long-term public policy issues that affect how sustainability and resilience
of our city. What we do in this committee is we spend a lot of time wrestling with big public policy issues a lot of times when you're on the council, you get issues that come to you and become to the committee process and that's where you kind of work things out. But in that case, you already have a proposal that you're dealing with. But when it comes to this issue, the issues around the environment and sustainability. There's so much complexity and there's so much to learn and so much to understand that we have really taken the stance in this committee that we want to spend time digging in to issues and going to a process where e along with the public
side by side, we really work things through. And so we've had multi meeting discussions in the past. We had a 3 or 4 meeting series on recycling where we really dug into recycling very deeply look at what other cities do. Look that the process of recycling, how it really supports employment around the state and how in fact, we have to import some recycling for some of our employers in the in city, in the state. When if you did a better job recycling, we could much more effective at both recycling and supporting jobs. We look to urban forestry with the green space. We looked at environmental justice. And then example of what comes next is, for example, right now, there's a pilot running
Park looking at carbon capture. And if we could use carbon capture as more effective way of both preserving for us in our city, but also capturing a little bit of of dollars for our parks, from the from the from that market. All of these just give a little plug for all those meetings. All those topics and others meetings are available online. The reason why we want to dig into that has been time on it to educate the counselors. So they have more depth of knowledge to give information to folks the community. So they have more depth of knowledge and so we can to our work through this public policy discussion together so data centers is what we're here for tonight. Tonight's meeting is part of an ongoing effort to inform both the council members and the public at large about data centers as we all know. And and I think why we're all
here, the rapid growth of computing demand driven by Internet services. More broadly. I in particular, has led to a nationwide expansion of data centers. This growth has raised significant concerns, especially ready to any environmental impacts energy use in long-term sustainability. One of the things we'll hear about from our speakers tonight is that the data centers. We've we've heard so much about them. And a lot of times we've heard about hyper scale ones, the very large ones, ones that you so much power and so much water and are a great concern. The ones that are driving the whole water issue at Lee District that I think that everyone probably in this room is tuned into and is paying attention to. But as you soar, scratch the surface really dig into data centers, you'll also
find out that some of our largest employers have maintained production. That is technically a data center like sales force, for example, they do all their work in the cloud and they have racks and racks of servers right now where they're in, they have for decades. And so is that a data versus hyper skin. One that I think folks have the most or there's a most awareness about right now. So really have to think these things through very carefully and really wrestle with his public policy issue. So because of these issues that people have concerns about the night in particular have been vocal about the water issue. Concerns me we want to make sure that the city developed an approach to reviewing data
center proposals that is in form, transparent and guided by public input. It is also important that we as elected officials take the time to people understand what data centers are and just as importantly how they differ. As I mentioned before, there's hyper skilled ones and they're smaller ones. We need really dig into them and figure out when you're regulating them. We need to do it the right way. So our focus today is to be very intentional in focus on building a shared understanding of what these things are, what the public policy concerns are and what the potential options are for how we can regulate and how we can manage them. To help us do that. Today we're going to have a couple speakers really throughout the years of running this committee, we really rely heavily and work
closely with the office of sustainability. So I went to city's office sustainability and said, listen, we have to get more com. We have to get more intentional public policy in structures around these things. So we have some confidence in how we're addressing them. We really need to make sure that we have a public ad such a decision-making process that is thoughtful and rational and one that is guided by the public and one that really protects our resources when it comes to the environment and one that making sure that is equitable and how it's approached. But we don't have that at all. Right now, these things around to find in Marion County. We don't have a structure around making
decisions and that's why you see in sort of all these issues come to a head when you go to the nbc and dealing zoning right? So we need to have more confidence in how we as a city are going to address these issues. And that means we need to have a rational, thoughtful, intentional and durable, regulatory process. You MAY have noticed that I've had 20 plus years working in regulatory issues in Indiana. And it's something I think about a lot in making sure that you have a reliable government that does things in the public interest so transparently is really important to me. But we only get there by wrestling with these issues in listening to the public in coming up with solutions. So that's we're doing today. As I mentioned, we're closely with office
sustainability. They answered my call to help me figure out how to how to proceed and how we're going see tonight is have to to presentations. One is I'm going to turn it over to to the director actually to 2. Tee up the first presenters. Our second presenters from the Hoosier Environmental Council. And I appreciate them. They're here in person. But our first 2 prisoners are national organizations who have been sharing information with the city. And they're going to be virtually online. And I'm going to turn it over to the director of the Office of Sustainability to introduce them into walk us through what they'll be talking about. Thank you so much. COUNCILMAN. Moment grounds on the director of the Office of Sustainability and in our work
as this topic has become more and more relevant to the work that our office does for the city, especially toward. Pursuing a carbon neutral goal that is echoed in Thrive. Indianapolis. We sought to educate ourselves around what data centers are our offices for people. We are often say we're experts of nothing and Jacksonville's of many trades. And so we have to rely on national experts to bring us into common knowledge or best practices when it comes to these large-scale issues. So that just so happened to coincide with engagement. We had with an organization that was previously known as the National Renewable Energy Laboratory is now known as the National Laboratory of the Rockies and then a sister organization called the Pacific Northwest National
Laboratory. And you're doing great job introducing, but I made a mistake. So give me one. Let me pause for moment. We do have public comment program at the end. If you want to participate in public comment, please sign in. There's a sign in for him at the podium and just just a reminder, there's no particular matters before us tonight. So it's just educational. So we don't we're not making any decisions tonight. So there's no specific ordinance to comment on. But you're welcome to comment on what we're learning in general and in your thoughts on on centers. But the sign-up form is right there. And that will be the last item on the chin. A sergeant sounds good. Okay. So now I can introduce my colleagues and I will have them sink to our monitors up here both in especially if my technical expertise will hold
out for me. I'm going to My colleagues Does Inc to do. The Druze. It just Majors Inc. And then Eric Anderson from respectively, National Lab Laboratory of the Rockies and Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. Can you all test your sound real quick? Erick, just think it can we hear you? Can I hear them all? COUNCILMAN, would you like to skip ahead in our agenda? Data right? So a way that they're if they're ready to go, we'll go. And I'm concerned about the. I'm concerned about the sound. Let's give it one more minute. You otherwise would go to what will make a quick adjustment to agency. Air. Do you think you could dial in?
And while you're figuring that we're going get, look, if we go ahead and adjust there we go. We've got Yet. We sure can. And if you wouldn't mind to speak extra loud, that would be great. Yes. I got. All right, Eric, Ready when you are? I'm I'm projecting the slights. Yeah, Eric. And so we just have our last slide showing the geographical dissipate distribution of the policies that we analyzed in our literature review. Thank you so much for your presentation. If there's a few questions from the council members for Eric and just think that we can take those at this time. Other ways we can move on with their agenda, kid. Eric, can
you hear me or do we need to? Hi I can repeat it if you can't. I will ask I will ask questions will take a couple questions because of the complexity of our virtual with these folks. Let's just take a couple questions and we'll repeated to avoid the complexity of this for our folks here and watching at home with us to a couple questions. Thank you very much for your work with the city. You don't need to repeat of that. My question is one of the things I keep getting asked about is especially with the hyper scale data centers with the rate of improvement in technology. Is the need for large centers as well. They will. That money continue to be as big a future meeting. Are over saturating ourselves the amount of data centers that we're building because the rate of the technology in the red, the efficiency is
going to keep getting bigger. And so will be doing all and building at a level that they don't actually need eventually, that's that's less now, you think, you know, I Okay. I mean, and just so folks at home and folks in the room serve understand that. Just the quest, genesis of my question is. Are we really so many of these in a speculative way that we MAY not actually need? And that is that we putting risk into our communities that MAY not actually benefit the community and all. That's the Janice of the question. I think the response was. It's really hard to know what the computing power that tech companies are
are looking is going to be in the rate of efficiency improvements. So just have the is that the information to built respond. That's right. And if I MAY add from the regulatory standpoint, cities and states like ours, as we've shown in tonight's presentations, are dealing with this as we go, we're all dealing with exactly the same time. Look at what we have like. Let's just do 2 more just because of the challenges associated with this. But we have a lot of Let's go to Perkins Thank you, MISTER CHAIRMAN. A question about really a definition do we have a clear and comprehensive definition of what data center is? Eric, how do you feel about that question? And if I MAY add, counselor, I has to Eric's point. I don't know that we're going to be able to lump them all into one
category ever either. There MAY be scales that we can, you know, a small medium, large, for example, where were able to finally categorize these things into in whatever the city chooses and how to evaluate them. Just that's a quick follow-up is an would it be helpful? And I think alluded to that we consider the definition of a data center to really capture this scale. Energy use water consumption and land use Impac. Would that be fair for us to consider as a as part of a comprehensive definition? Cancer? Maine? Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, thank you, Eric. For the presentation going to the
policies, anything that you have observed? You know, I we speak for myself. I think I probably speak for everyone else here is that, you one of our number one priority is is. Protecting ratepayers and making sure that the cost energy costs. For data centers is not pass on to them. That includes, you know, their generation or transmission as well. Have you seen across the country? Maybe it's a state or local community, successful policies are successful initiatives where thank you's actually use data centers to pay. Upgraded infrastructure cost because over the past several years and Indiana, 3 quarters of our rising utility bills are directly because of needed. Great improvements. And so obviously we're going
to need to do additional great improvements. Rather. We, you know, see dozens coming or not. Can data centers ever be a tool? For improving our electric grid. I am getting word that no one at home can hear our presenter. So I can see there's a lot of questions, folks. Sorry that it is causing us some challenges. So and then move on to our friends from htc so we can get past that. The connectivity problems and we can have control of the presentation in the room. So I mean, let me by thanking our presenters. It's always a challenge to do these remotely specially doing a a live meeting. But we pull it off and we really appreciate
all the information. And I think the questions help clarify a few points. And I'm guessing the director, Rentals will be happy to facilitate any questions that counselors have back to back to our experts. So just follow up with 3rd directly. But with that, go to our next presenter is from the Hoosier Environmental Council just by way of background, if you don't know under the previous director, I worked with him very carefully to create this committee in the first place. He's he's moved to other things the organization lives on as a very strong advocate for the environment in Indiana and a real reliable interested policy partner. So I'm going to turn it Rebecca, introduce yourself and organization and
your partner and to get started. Thank you so much, MR. CHAIRMAN members of the committee counselors and members of the public. My name is Rebecca Tuchel scene inside. A great honor to be here today, sir. Thank you for having us. I'm the climate and energy senior adviser at which are Environmental Council. And I'm joined today by my colleague Shannon Anderson, who's the director of advocacy it for Earth, charter Indiana. So we wanted to come and speak to a little bit about the environment here in Indiana and some of the things that we might consider as we think about what data centers look like here in the city of Indianapolis and whether they're a net benefit or not to our public. So when thinking about the policy context here in Indiana. What Eric said at is really relevant here. The kinds of policies that he was speaking to that are being passed to
incentivize data center development. Those those are what we're seeing here in the state right now. We have a sales tax exemption statewide for data centers, which means that you pay for a sales tax on your utility consumption. But the data center doesn't it? Also, we also have a property tax exemption that is at the discretion of local governments. And as of last year ca one authorized a removal depreciation cap, which means that these data centers can come in and after one year say that there were 3 years say that their servers are worth $0 and sort of make it appear that they are not yet by passing any at property taxes they there. Those assets are not worth value. And so therefore, they would not be taxed on them. And that
exemption does not apply to them. We also living in a context where we have very limited statewide guidance on data centers we. Depending very, very closely on local governments. We don't have a policy framework at the state level as it relates to citing or zoning other than the discretionary and ad and other sales tax abatements that we see. And we're also living in a climate of significant state and federal regulation, particularly as it relates to pollutants. And so we are seeing at the federal level coal-fired power plants being mandated to stay online. We're seeing the epa and at the state level, I them have some of their responsibilities
eliminated or reduced which puts us in a position of being at greater risk to our environment. And as it relates to utility planning in our state, we do have some particular considerations that weigh heavily within the context of data centers where all sources state. What that means is that Cole, gas, wind, solar, they're all considered equally. When we're talking about utility planning. That means that we end up relying much more heavily on fossil fuels like coal and gas and then other states. We also live in a state where utilities are able pass the cost of fuel based on the market costs of that fuel on to consumers. So when we're talking about the rising cost
of utilities, we're going to see at we are we are seeing and I will get to this in a minute. We're seeing utilities across the state depend on gas-fired plants in particular to support they their data centers and we are expecting nationally that to be a trend. And as a result, the cost of gas MAY go up and that's going to get passed on directly our consumers here in Indiana. I also want to point out a couple of pieces of legislation, what one piece of legislation in particular last year, hb 10, 0, 7, it was intended to help us get that energy assets online. More quickly, new power plants and things of that nature. But one of the things that it did was that it said that large load
users would be required to pay for 80% of their infrastructure costs, which means that if you need a new gas-fired power power plant for your data center. 20% of that cost could get passed on to residents. And the true impact of that is really unknown at this time because as we've talked about a counselor Barth mentioned earlier, some of these data centers might not stay online for their entire projected life. And so if we build 10 new power plants to support these data centers and then all of them shot down the only mechanism that the Indiana utility Regulatory Commission has to pay for those plants that have already been constructed is to pass those costs back to rate pairs. And so if this turns out to be a big risk. Can fall on rate
payers. And so unexpected. Thank And so we were in a situation now where these projects are coming online. They are getting approved and there are some known cost that will go through. And so we're operating today and sort of the Wild West without it without strong safeguards with out a real understanding from a policy perspective of these impacts. And so we're recommending that some safeguards get put in place following some of these recommendations. Very quickly to reduce the rest to health, the environment and the economic well-being of Indianapolis residents and Hoosiers more broadly. This topic is. There's a lot of engagement for my community level. Everybody has heard
about data centers and we recommend that the public be engaged very deeply in this process. We know that. Communities like Martindale Brightwood are have been actively involved in opposing data centers. We know that every single rate pair in the in s footprint is going to be impacted by the potential for data centers. And so every single person in Indianapolis is impacted by this and we encourage you to take account meaningfully and then we want to make sure that everything is explored, whether a pop and data center construction removing discretionary economic incentives or anything else that we can think of that might be a way to make sure that these developments are in the best interest of Indianapolis
residents before they're approved. And we really do. I want to make sure that that as we're moving forward with whatever framework that the council selects for data center approval, that it has that that intention Everett, reducing risk to health environment and economic well-being and the interests of the public. And so when we as Environmental Council, think about data centers in particular, we think about 4 key considerations community impact, energy, water and land use. And I'm going to start here with community impact because environmental work is grounded in people. So when we think about what you fight for, you. When we think about community impact. One of the things that we are facing as a state right now is that there's not a lot of public information about these
developments. Some of you MAY recall that 400 plus Acre data center that was up for proposal in Franklin Township. We didn't even find out until a few days before who was the developer behind that project. And so we are facing these massive developments with massive impacts on our community water, our community energy. And we don't even know what the plan is or who is behind them. And so one of the things that we recommend from a community impact lands is thinking about how do we get that information out to the public? More transparently? Do we need to prohibit and da's? And we also know that communities are best positioned to advocate for
their needs before these products are approved. From a zoning perspective from a permitting perspective. And so it's really important that we engage communities from the start. Another aspect of this is that we don't know how long these companies are going to be in existence. And so we really do need to think about, you know, is this a bubble? Might some of these companies go bankrupt before the lifetime of they're they're expected lifetime of their data center. And so as a result, do we do? Need to have enforceable public commitments that have some kind of surety bond or some kind of protective mechanism so that if that company does go under that community doesn't face a negative impact. And then, of course, you know, thinking
about transparency, not just about You can like if you have, if you want we're now, if you have now, one more, please. We up with not just transparency what the plan is, but also transparency around the benefits that that these data centers are receiving. One thing that we know is that a lot of these data centers are being cited on places like Brownfields. And while that might there might be some appetite for that in terms of like city planning. There's also additional risks there. Brown fields are disproportionately in marginalized communities, communities of color and historically just invested communities. So we need pay careful attention to who we are preference When we choose the sighting of these developments and then additionally, these brown fields are contaminated sites. And so if we're going to be
digging in these locations, we need to be careful about what contamination we might be taking up. Also, these locations. They'll have and significant impact on the local area. From the noise perspective, from a light perspective. So we need to think about things like noise, caps that and mitigation for light pollution. And perhaps the most important thing here as it relates to the community and is making sure that the community is really leading this process. So not just coming in and giving some kind of nominal concession to community, but really letting the community speak in terms of what would be a meaningful engagement with their community. Another aspect that I wanted to mention is related
to Anderson, really understanding what the impact is going to be before you at before we do move forward with any kind of and not just from the perspective of what does the community want, but what information is the community making a decision with? So we would recommend air pollution modeling an independent community impact studies in advance of any approvals. And with that, I'm going to pass it over to Shannon briefly to talk about energy. Can catch you up Thank you so much, CHAIRMAN And thank you, counselors for listing some of our suggestions today on letting us talk about some of these key issues. I'm here to talk a little bit about the energy picture of some of data centers and and so I do kind of want to walk backwards a
little bit. Indiana is of 11th and states total energy use per capita, which is pretty high up our industry and industrial sector is the state's largest energy consuming sector and accounts for almost half for states and or so years overall, Indiana consumes 3 times more energy than we produce. So we're energy user. And I think that's important framing for this conversation. Energy become an issue and affordability is becoming issue that is very, very important. This year. We're all struggling. I think, with, you know, facing energy affordability issues. So knowing looking at the energy consumption of data centers and to some of your questions earlier is hard to kind of frame what is the average size consumption was electric wise
for a data center it's useful to to note that's now. But the average U.S. Status on or so in recent years carries around. 22 100 megawatts critical load. That's the size roughly of a small power plant. New ai campuses can be much larger. They can be designed for around 100 to 300 megawatts of critical power. And so here megawatts used a lot. You'll hear gigawatts years just as a quick you know, 1000 megawatts want to get a lot. So you hear those numbers around and so it is important to point out that there already Piper scale data centers in Indiana and they are nearly half. This, you
know, power. And that is of mind blowing that nearly 45% of our power is already gotten The project Rainier, which we've heard a lot about northwest Indiana. We'll use 2.2 gigawatts of electricity. Now that's 2000 megawatts of power. And that to compare is. Up against just says current 3.9 gigawatts of entire generation you can see the mismatch here already starting to the plan and to give you some additional comparisons, because I think that that's really important to kind of paint this picture just for s Eagles Valley gas plant as a nameplate capacity of only 671 megawatts. Remember, we're talking about hyper scale data centers. That could be 100 to 300 megawatts of power. The entire wind farm that we drive through on our way to Chicago
metals like one from Power's 200,000 Indiana homes that entire nameplate capacity is 800 megawatts of power. So I'm just you know, just to give you kind of some sense of scale here. I think that's important. The solar farm at the airport, 7 and a half single digits, megawatts of power. So I think that's important perspective to have. So You go back So you know, at Rebecca mentioned, the Indiana isn't all sources state, meaning that when we go to the commission, all of these resources are treated equally solar, wind, gas and things like that. But some of these have variable fuel costs that she mentioned are passed on to customers. And that's really important to note. Yes, as current is already difficult to square with some of the city's climate goals. Adding to this additional capacity could put. Indianapolis is
climate goals and carbon at risk. And that's I do want to kind of point back to s I r p that was filed in NOVEMBER because I think that that is a really framing for how we discussed Yes, modeled additional data centers. They modeled alone medium and high scenario no data center scenario. And that's really important because it showed that when we exceed 500 megawatts of power in data center at a capacity, which is very easy to do with just one. They just large data centre. They will likely file for a 700 megawatt new gas plant remember that the existing one they have this is 800 they will also be that probably that much and battery storage as well. Some invest to
similar investments and battery energy storage in the high data scenario. They would add a second guess plan peak or plant was discussed a little bit earlier. That is the plant that's only deployed one demand is peaking or highest. But these are often the most expensive plants to run and to pass those costs on to customers. So it's especially important to note the data centers require electric capacity at all times. So through power outages, peak summer days, winter storm events, floods, infrastructure, modifications, their demands are consistent and contractual their backup solutions are often as we've seen with data center permit requests with existing facilities and Indiana are on site diesel generators and
diesel generators. Generators notoriously dirty loud. They have to be tested periodically, which means that you're generating pollution in carbon dioxide, just a room them for Tess. And that's important to note, too. So developers can commission data centers within like a year and a half to 2 years. But they cannot build electric capacity. And that timeline because of turbine delays, supply chain billing for gas turbines. Let alone like the hopefully pie in the sky, our technology that could be here. You know, 10 years to number there are back their issues with transmission cues and other things that make the
supply for electricity. Much more slow to get to their building or so. That's important to note as well. And then we also want to make sure we talk about some of the policy solutions that we would like to see here. Yeah. Okay. The climate pollution that could jeopardize the carbon emissions of goals. You can also go back to the srp and they also models. But carbon output of adding new gas for data centers would be. I encourage you to check the that planet too. There's obviously, as I mentioned, because of the demand, there's a shoots to grid stability when we have peak days. I think all of us in the city Indianapolis are not unfamiliar with power outages and then also, as Rebecca mention, the increased price to rate payers as we pass on
costs for fuel as well as infrastructure. This leave Hoosiers in the dark. We don't know what will happen and then we also don't know what will happen with long-term planning for these facilities as they either add capacity to their sites as generation change here and not mizar service territory. Right? We have 2 more. We have 2 more to 10 more minutes. Think we can do that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. To policy areas that we're going go through a little bit more quickly and then we will take questions. And so as it relates to water the court challenge here is that the data centers can use as much water as a small town where has it using the amount of energy at many times as a large cities where talking about those larger scale data
centers and and so as single data center can use as much water is about a town of about 50,000 people. There are some new approaches like a closed loop system that is going to significantly reduce the amount of water that's It's still going to have that initial large draw. But then it's going to cycle that water through the system over and over again. When that happens, though, it does create new risks. So while it might not use as much water, it's going need additional chemicals to keep bacteria levels low. And there's going to be additional contaminants within that system that create new risks. And so as it relates to what we're thinking about when we think about the policy solutions to water, we are thinking about water scarcity.
We're thinking about again, the prices to repairs. I'm and then. Again. We've seen, for example, and if we go back to the project about the the Leap District here in Indianapolis, we're facing a project that's going withdraw about 25 million gallons of water, about a million of those gallons to support a data center. Every single day. And so what that does that project initially was going to come out of a a different, completely different basin. And then partly through the project, the plan changed and now its plan to come out of Eagle Creek. And so what we're facing as a community is that we didn't know that was going to happen until the project was already partially under way. And so when we think about with the policy lever here, we need to be thinking about how we can make sure that people are in the loop on
what the plans are from the beginning. And then there are also additional risks to the local people, ecosystem. And so when we're thinking about policy solutions, again, that planning aspect that the disclosure at the beginning, the environmental studies from a 3rd party are going to be really fundamental here. But then also on the back and making sure that we're monitoring what is happening in reality, making sure that we're testing water as it's returning to the ecosystem and thinking about not just withdrawal in return, but also the conditions of that water, something as simple as that temperature at which we return the water into the ecosystem can dramatically affect the wildlife. That that is and is naturally occurring in the
environment. Want to land for Shannon. And then of course, last the land-use Paul, problem. Data centers can take up a large amount of acreage, which is why a lot of them are. I'm rural counties, of course. I think it's important again for scale that, you know, 8, 7, 100 Acre Data center, which is a little bit on the larger side is larger than all of Mile Square. So you can imagine that one that is slightly smaller is still around half that. So that's a good perspective. And even developers are looking at urban areas that can disproportionately affects communities that have not received the same kinds of investments in the past. And
so they have to look at not only cleaning up sites, but also building on them and that can create problems, all kinds of problems for in a PRESIDENT. Has anyone who is live near large construction sites can attest and then Brownfields are often does not hot spot for these developers, but disturbing those sites can also create environmental contamination. I think that's important to note so we want to make sure that we prioritize some of our values when we're looking at land use as well. We don't want to destroy sensitive lands. That means wetlands. We don't want to see forests cut down and the desperately needs more green spaces that we want to try to protect those areas. We want to prioritize people and avoid development that near critical areas where people need to go hospitals, schools
and other highly trafficked areas and then make sure that remediated appropriately. We also want to consider the contamination on sites so and then last, you know, we want to look at maybe potentially curtailing their growth to a specific industrial area. Terre Haute something similar or rise area and they are anything outside of that area requires intense community approval to be an exception to that area. We're also interested in nature based solutions like that. That data centers engage meaningfully with the community provide water runoff options like permeable pavers gardens, rooftops green roofs and things like that. And that, of course, is Rebecca mentioned a
full environmental impact study to make sure we know what there will be doing and not just at the beginning of the project through the entire life of the project. And so with that, I'd like to just recommend a few next steps. We are not legal experts. So help us understand what levers are realistic from the city level. And we do want to reiterate the importance of public engagement on this and again, just underscoring the fact that a large data center that's already plan in the state of Indiana is the size of the Mile Square and it will use half the power that a yes generates. So these are massive developments and it's it's critical that we think about them on the scale that
they really are. And so with that, I'd like to say thank you all for the extended time that you gave us this evening. This is an extremely complicated topic and we appreciate your time with Thank thank you. And thank you both. So couple things done. Number one, just reiterate your point. The in the point I made earlier is that. What the intent of this committee is is to really wrestle with these complex policy issues and do it in public and do it in cooperation and collaboration with the public. And that's why we're having this meeting are having such great speakers and we're looking forward to hearing public comment. As he's and think this issue through. I think both are speakers really help clarify? Why were facing the complexity of this. You is that this issue and why it's so important that we put together a structure to help us manage
and understand these things. I do want to 2 things when I know that a couple counselors have time limitations and so or not having a national hearing or you don't need a quorum and anyone who needs to leave. Please go ahead and step out. That that's fine. Everyone has family come in since on someone and then a number open it to to any any counselors. Counter Cahill's go with you first. Thank you. MISTER Chair, Counsel. Perkins Ask My question to Eric the first time. So I'll ask you the same question because the I think the key thing that we struggle with is what is the definition of a data center. So have you seen anyone successfully defined a data center and what what did they do to define and say this is a data center? She meant to
them. I mean, I don't know if the Oxford English dictionary he's gotten on this yet, but I think it is a facility whose primary use is to provide servers storage. Summons to front is cloud storage for data and that can be either in-house like Amazon or could be as a for a 3rd party where they're like leasing space as well. But who is footprints exceeds a certain minimum number of acreage and energy use of water use, which cities were probably define for themselves. What would count as a data center. But usually it's round about 100 or so megawatts of power, I think is a good benchmark. But then also we're seeing hyper scale data centers which are much larger like Project Green
here. So I think that there's kind of now become those 2 definitions like traditional data centers, a little bit smaller. Hyper scale data center is much larger. We're looking at hundreds of acres. Huge amounts of power and water. And I think city's have to kind of set some of those benchmarks for those definitions themselves. But we're looking at this based on the projects that are coming online today. And I think we're starting to see the pattern drift upward. So larger acreages larger energy use. But Prince, does that make sense? Yeah, the yeah. So I. The challenge with your your dictionary definition is that when it comes to zoning in regulation? It's really difficult if not impossible to regulate the sort for a First Amendment perspective. What
are they doing inside that? Right? Like just because you don't agree with it doesn't give us the right to to regulate that. I think the energy usage Engel that we could regulate. I think what we would have to figure out is because like when we look at the Google Data center, that it was actually multiple buildings, they were talking about and how do you? How do you keep somebody if we draw a line, it's 100 megawatts. How do you keep somebody from saying, hey, all just so a bunch of different parcels in close proximity because the Google while they were coming too. Still that to get its own done to do all that, it was still going to be, I think 5 buildings. But I feel like they could have subdivided if whatever we do, someone's going to try to figure out a way around So thank you.
Absolutely. Hit the nail on the head there and we'll go to Kandahar second. But I think don't really key issue in. We don't have a structure currently to that that manage this zoning process, which is why things are so complicated. That moment why we need to help solve that. But I think one way cancer Kate Cahill is is is by the ucs, but also by the the to the size are smaller. Summer summer. Piper Scale Summer Enterprise. You know that if anyone watched the recent pretty webinar, they went into that in some detail. That was very that was very helpful. Concert and then cancel boots and then comes around. Thank you, MR. Hunt and up. Just jump on Topic of definition or could just up and expertise background. I
know my my to my day job in my life in this field. I mean, and a lot of these things are true statements, right? It is a collection of of hardware, its service, its which is its routers. It's all those things that are aggregated in a location that are doing competing for a varying degree of reasons and or backup and recovery. I like to think of it at least in way when speaking to a broad audience is that you put in one definition the term data centers like that is trying to do that with a vehicle or a car. I mean, you've got all different types of cars got electric cars. You got gas cards. You get trucks. You cars of all different sizes and shapes and sizes. Same thing goes for a data center. And I think I mean, you said it. I mean, spot on, right? It's when we get into this
conversation. The zoning is the massive part of all this. That's where we're going to really take a look at the size, the shape, the capacity, the usage and all those components. But a data center itself is what it is. Just like a car is what it is. But the size and scope of that will change based on on its intended use as real question, what I'm curious on. And I don't know a whole lot about your organization. So my question is far overreaching us because of my years of just not knowing how the scale what you guys do but I have gone through data centers in my district. I've been everything you've expressed I've seen and listened to And part of these conversations what what's interesting to me is I know that we've got over all right. Thing right at or near around 30 data centers in Marion
County. And what's interesting to me is to understand that, you know, a lot of folks that know those are in the count and there's one that I toward that's in counselor. New since the shooting we toured together actually that you would never know. Know most who would never know. Even exists right? And what I'm curious to is based on your scope, your capacity, if you've got if the Hoosier Environmental Council is conducted any research on the existing 30 year. So data centers that are in Marion County and created any kind of analytical benchmark for factors that are addressing their water usage community impact that way. You know, we as a council and the members of the public have some sort of benchmark to look at. That is a great question. I would look to some of the research
that Citizens Action Coalition has done on this. I would also say you're absolutely right. It centers have existed since the 1940's. And I think that what we're talking about here is a massive change in scope and scale as opposed to and a new function, right, as opposed to at a new class of of facilities. Data centers have existed, but their nature, their scale and their use is changing dramatically. I think and I think a really great point, Kandahar, but also effective because to your point these have existed. But the explosion in tech in the need for computing power. And I in particular has caused this In fact, I saw the other
day that said the United States is borderline a recession. If it wasn't for the spend that's associated with these with the center. So that demonstrates the the intensity of of the investment that's happening right now, accounts of routes and then councilmember. So that's your CHAIRMAN, thanks for your presentation this evening. Appreciate all the state policy review that usual. But our challenge is the rubber meets the road right here in this room what information are studies do you know of in the end? I asked this question Eric if he still listening what are the local policy trends that you're a primary? One that I'm interested in is. Most municipalities by model. Basically say. A data center. I automatically fit in tonight to zone there for you. Can't stop me or are they taking a more limited view and using
special use. Digs at exceptions where they must come before MAY be a special panel. Maybe Co the Special Channel and come back before us possibly go through some additional public engagement steps. What are you seeing more? Because I prefer the latter Model vs the matter by right where people could that's how we have 30 data centers in Marion County. The most people don't know Yeah, absolutely. And that's an excellent question. And I want to point you to the appendix and these lines as a starting point. We did not have the time. Yeah, we'll make sure you get them. We didn't have time to go into all of our recommendations just for the fact that we're and this setting. But we're seeing
broad variety of approaches some communities even here in the state of Indiana are taking a moratorium approach some are taking like cash. And I was talking about the approach of saying, you know, in this corridor, this is where data centers are able to be cited. And I would also caution against the by right use. We're seeing some legislation right now that would make certain agricultural zones of I write use, which would alter for any kind of development, not just data centers and that opens us up to risk of the local community, not even being a part of the conversation. And so again, these facilities are off our there's there's a ton of public engagement even in this room related to these facilities. And I would encourage that any process that the Indianapolis City
County Council recommends that it to get that into account. And I would also point to 2 climate mayors has some really good information on this. And I want you to their data center page in the site as well. Who was that letter group? You mentioned climate mayors Thank you can serve I'll just say this for the sake of the committee members to know that whenever we get into a media issue and we have a lot of questions and get get really a happy that that was the intent of this committee in the first Thank you so much for your your deep engagement on this council has a lot of really excellent questions can surround. Thank as and thank you to the audience is sitting here listening for a long time. I had to what we're all doing up here tonight, which is make a long introductory statement before going to my question. But anyway. I appreciate the recent questions about investment and CHAIRMAN By
mentioned. Report. I actually think or understanding it pretty significantly. I think we would be in a very severe recession without investment into ai, especially and Nvidia. I think folks should really look into that and see that up to 75% of that investment into Nvidia has actually done by subsidiaries of Nvidia. So there's very real evidence went speculative bubble that is going to crash the entire United States economy very soon. Obviously can predict the future, but that sure looks bad. But in the meantime, even while the economy is going game busters what that's doing is concentrating wealth into the hands of big tech, specifically the same oligarchs who are supporting the Trump administration. Right now. So whether you're a fan of that or not, I think that's important to know. I also just wanted to talk about the costs and I'm glad you brought this up. You know, obviously there's the money. We have question from accounts
over there because of an thank you about whether we could use some incentive structures too. Set it up so that when we build a data center that actually lowers the cost because they're paying for their own transmission, they're paying for their own plants, et cetera. Cool, you know, great, great idea. I would favor that. And I think that so a point of reference. I am actually board member of Citizens Action Coalition, not, of course, one of the policy wonks, but I I'm around them enough to pick up enough and smelled them right. So that actually wasn't my first environmental job. My very first event job 22 years ago was for Hoosier Environmental Council. When I was dreadlocked teenager. And at that point we were doing a lot of work on outdoors around the state, talking about the impact of coal-fired power plants and natural gas plants
under a little bit cleaner, but are actually still pretty bad. One aspect we looked at was Mercury and other was asthma. At that point. You know, again, 22 years ago. People in southern Indiana near more coal-fired power plants had 7 times the rate of childhood asthma. And that point, who's council had a bunch of numbers ready to go about what the economic cost of that health care was. We all know that we've seen both childcare and health care public health costs rock skyrocket up while the government pays less and less of that, which is putting the squeeze on our constituents. I don't know if you happen to have any numbers about the economic. Obviously there's lifestyle cost. There's there's the tragedy of
watching your child coughing actually just had a friend on Monday who had to take baby to the er for asthma attack. But but just the economic costs often gets most of you have to have numbers on that. I don't have that as part of prepare to Mark Mark stages. Gives you We do so. And then my final point. Thank you for that. That permission, MR. Chair is the cost of climate change. I know it's not to talk about anymore. For some reason, even though every scientist honor at this point their hair out and talking about the catastrophic damage is costing not just to polar bears, not just 2, anything else like like nature and friendship and rainbows. It's causing real costs, especially I might add to immigration, right? A huge
amount of immigration and increasing is caused by climate refugees. People whose farms where were devastated by climate change and or down moving to United States. So again, I would love to see some numbers on the cost of that, which would go up if we have to build new natural gas plants or keep coal-fired power plants on-line. I can't sorry. I can't speak to the financial cost a specific data center load for the city like both in terms of health care or social cost of carbon that she thinks you're kind of getting 2 or even climate impacts. Climate impacts relative baked in right now. Butts. I think you bring up an interesting point that even if we can try to protect ratepayers, for example, we
can come up with a bunch of regulatory schemes that could help curtail some of the worst blows to electric rate payers. There's some inescapable realities of adding large-scale data centers to our city, which is that they still have to take significant water withdrawals, even if it's a close was looped system, they still have to take a significant amount of water to get started. And then the league will still have hazardous chemicals. And we're back only briefly touched on like the forever chemicals that are in the wastewater for these facilities like pfas and they still have to produce the energy from something. And even if they're helping defray the cost of those repairs, you can go back to that irp. You know that we work a lot in the state legislature. You have to
read the bill, read the bill, go back to that rp and not only is the cost to the right pair model, but so is carbon and you cannot escape that carbon number. I didn't include in the I think it's worth bearing bearing on now is that we will not be able to me our carbon pledge to our children Thrive. Indianapolis program will not just difficult. It will be impossible because you cannot plan enough trees. You cannot, you know, do enough bike lanes to offset that amount of carbon emissions from a new gas plant. A new set of diesel generators, whatever it is, some ours are not coming to save us. You know. And so i think that we need to be realistic about that fantasy right now. It's, you know, you cannot escape that carbon, even if you can try to escape
some of the costs to utilities from water or energy based on whatever you know, regulatory schemes, you can you know, employment quickly. You can't escape the carbon. Thank We have a question. Counsel Delaney and any other questions. They like to get public comment because I think we probably have about a half an hour of public comment and ideally, we land land that plane by by about a 7 32 hours in council. Delaney, go ahead. And then if anyone else has questions indicate me. So I know. But canceling, please thank. Thank you, MR. I am really interested in this idea. And counselor being
brought it up with that first presentation. How do we make sure we're not passing the cost of the data center specifically as it is to the electric power. How do we not past that costs of infrastructure improvements on to regular repair? And that was a section in the previous presenters presentation. And I'm bringing this back up with you because you're involved in this. House I e don't know that we as the local governing body with homer on the state of Indiana in this state regulates our power. And water utilities. He and we do at the local level to try to make sure that the the data centers are carrying the burden of their increased demand and that it's not passed on to
local repairs. I think there there are limited options as it relates to what you can do it that the local level, I think some of the options include some of the to the incentives that the state has authorized are discretionary. So as you decide how you're going to post a dissenters from the city level, thinking about how you can reserve those incentives just for those data centers that are beating best practices. And then the other component is that the 80% of infrastructure costs that we mentioned, that's a floor in that that was given to us last year by the General Assembly and we can get into the specifics about how that sort asked number at a different But a lot of data centers are agreeing to pay for 100% of incremental costs. And so I would encourage this body to
think about how you I can make that a standard practice as part of whatever guidance the city comes up with. Let's do to do more than we're going to public comments. So we'll go to council Brown and then cow survey. We'll give you the last word count survey. Thank you, MR. Chairs people wanted to say just a comment to the public here today. I'm not sure if there's some overlap between this group and a group. I'm about to mention but issued a statement earlier today saying that I favor a total moratorium, a data center's effective immediately and then a pause. I really I don't want any data centers And county and I sent out a petition and just this afternoon. But notice ahead of time and over. 65 people had signed that and left comments prior to me that point, it's up on my phone right now. So I just wanted to mention that into the record. How deep and widespread public opposition to the centers as thank you. Thank you. Councilmember can
survey. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN just can't be backing off of counselor Delaney's question there. You know, as counselors we do have a lot of that we can do during the rezoning process. You know, obviously there's a data center that's looking to he developed in the district. I have the privilege of representing on the southwest side. It's area that's already zoned industrial. So it goes through a bit of a different process than like what we saw Franklin Township says that's just a variance. Unfortunately, city county councils left out of that process and nbc has the final say. But through the rezoning been working really hard to get as many protections as possible. One of the first things I asked for was that the developer would not only pay for all the energy cost, what they would also pay for. You know, if there's a new
substation has to be built that they should pay for that, that they should have to pay for that transmission. The generation. And any kind of distribution infrastructure that's needed for think that kind of just needs to be the floor for whatever we see that sun is going to come to Marion County and really probably the state. I know the governor mentioned something very similar that his state of the State address about how data center should be paying for all of their energy use. And don't we have a question for this? But I do appreciate the platform that we have here. I really look forward to. Coming up with an ordinance and working with the city on that. I know the city dnd ultimately present that to the nbc first, then it comes to us for approval and we can obviously make changes to that. You know, that's really where the real work going to be. And I look forward to getting there. I have heard a lot of speculation tonight and there's nothing inherently
wrong with speculation. But I look forward us actually getting to work and drafting an ordinance for that. Thank you remained. I think that's a very point. Good point. And as I mentioned at the start of this, the the complexity associated with this issue is is significant. Also navigating what we as a council actually have the power to do is also complicated. As you pointed out, only matters actually start nbc and most of decisions right now are being made by the nbc. So we are that adds to the challenges and trying to understand and manage the situation often times where in situations as members of the where because we don't have home rule in this state and we exist as a
function of the General Assembly, creating We live within that within that framework and and have to understand those those constraints exist for us. And so how we represent our constituents and take action. Why were living in this complex environment is part of what we're wrestling with him trying to figure out tonight. So with thanks again to our presenters. You're more than welcome stay there. Or you're more welcoming us in the back. Whatever you like today. I know you're right up front. But but but but thank you both for your time and in both being here tonight answering questions and doing a presentation. But also I know you put that together in partnership with some other
environmental organization. So thanks to them for weighing in as well. Its real collaborative effort among the environment of folks in the city in the state. So because as I mentioned earlier and keep mentioning part what we do in the environment sustainability Committee is is try to make public policy collaboratively, wanted to a time for public comment. So everyone has signed up I'm going to turn over to our clerk and one second to read our rules around public comment. I just want to remind folks that we don't have any matter in front of us. So there's that will be voting on tonight. We're more seeking comment on the information that we've heard tonight and how you envision your thoughts
the zoning or regulatory structure for how we would work with in the city. And I'm especially interested in that. That continuum that we mentioned earlier of that, the data centers that already exist and have for a long time. As far as the the structure of cloud computing and entities doing that job in their enterprise all the way up to hyper data centers have generating so much interest. And in fact, is what is happening up in the in the Leap District just really love to hear your thoughts on how we can manage that. So let me to live you, MADAM Clerk, and then we'll go to public comments. Before we begin to open the floor to public comments. We would like to remind committee members and the public a few ground rules so everyone can have a fair chance to speak and be heard
is important that we observe the following rules first, each speaker will be limited to 2 minutes. Second, any public comments must reasonably relate to the agenda item under consideration. 3rd speakers who stray from the item under consideration or become unduly repetitious MAY be asked to move on to their next point or conclude their remarks. Finally attendees to cause disruptions that prevent the committee from proceeding through tonight's agenda in a reasonably efficient manner will be moved. Please remember that some types of threatening speech or incitement to violence are not protected by the First Amendment at all. We will deal with those issues if they come up. But we don't think they will MR. CHAIRMAN, now, if a committee member asked for consent to adopt these rules, we can proceed to public comments. Eddie Ph
Cliff and William b. Good afternoon, CHAIRMAN And board members. And we appreciate this opportunity to for you to hear from the public, the people that put you in your very seats that you're sitting in. We are inundated. We're not alone. We're being inundated by data centers all over the state of Indiana. Not just in Annapolis. Unfortunately, I had to fight. Almost a year one that was going to be put literally in my backyard. Now I'm fighting one that's going to be put my farm land land. I grew up on because Indiana refused and has refused. Did you development standards in building standards for the state of Indiana? No matter what you come up with, no matter what rain, Bo, you paint it with. The data center. People will come in
and have that and done because it does not have state law to back it up. We will lose that battle before even gets started. We have to go to the state in-demand building and development standards for data centers. Do what's right. We regulate adult bookstores. We regulate liquor stores. We regulate gas stations. We can surely regulated data center. We do that at the state level. This fight goes to the state. It does not rest in this room. It does not rest with these residents. I'm tired of this. They bring the experts. People in this room are not the expert for the residents that it's going to impact. So that's why we have to fight. So I look to this council. And the full Council of the city
to go to the state and demand development standards, building standards in own ing standards for any data center, regardless of where they are. Thank you tonight for your time. Hi, my name is Clifford I'm a director with an eerie sight community organization known as Snesko. We represent 30,000 residents on the near East side across multiple neighborhoods. Our work sits at the intersection of housing, stability, public health, infrastructure, and utility access when systems fate, when systems fail, we see it first. When the costs roars, our neighbors feel it immediately. To skip a lot of this because we've already heard it tonight. Our neighbors are asking for us to have. More consideration about
this. We are talking about having diesel generators in our neighborhoods. We are talking about the brown fields that are going to push the pollutants out. One of the data centers we have right now is one of the dirtiest sites honor our property. We see toxic plumes coming out and we're just going to build on it. I'm gonna call. I'm sit. Was just Councilor Brown in calling for a six-month moratorium on all data center projects. Fact immediately a pause to assess environmental impacts, utility strains tax policy and in an enforceable community protections that is not anti growth. It is responsible It is responsible
governance until we can answer who benefits, who pays and who bears risks of these projects. They should not move forward. Hello, my name is William I had a whole thing written and after sitting here and listen everything Anderson going just trash it because I might host too much. Who am I? So I'm a resident Indianapolis District 8 upper 40 seconds. Sherman, am an expert in artificial intelligence. I've been working on ai since 2016 graduate from it. Why would a Masters went to Carnegie Mellon University worked as a researcher for the dod, came back here for my Phd wore, worked on trusted ai, trying to make smaller models that don't need to fit on the cloud. I've used a cloud. 2019. We're using the cloud for doing infringing on
detecting a motion from voice. I was working with colleagues who are doing fire fire fire detection for firefighters to San Francisco. 2022, I was doing very small ai that works my laptop. That can pretty much detect anomalies and from my front yard of someone's breaking in, I used it for someone breaking in my neighbor's house. My Phd work that being at the Publix on. But that said, I want you to understand there are data center just as 30 you say that's 30. What they're pushing for right now is something called the scaling law. They are trying to exponentially build the largest models possible because they believe with the scaling law that they can meet Agi 80% of academics disagree with that notion so whether or not it's a perfect pretty data center like American towers
that they I like that data center. They want to put 1000 of them. That's the size of a hyper scale data center. So if it's hyper Scheller, if it's pretty, it's nice. We need a moratorium. So I stand with Jussie call for a moratorium. Hold off. Just stop it. Stop the games and watch and see what they're doing and learn more about and figure out what you need to do to regulate Regulates it. Hello, my name is Samantha Alba and the biggest thing that concerns me is like trying to define what a data center is to me that raises red flags and basically saying once we defined, how can we find loopholes are ways around it because we're technically not a data center that is concerning for me. I think it doesn't matter how
you define a data center. In my opinion, it should matter what the community and what your constituents are saying. If they're saying they don't want it. I feel like as your constituents that's part of the rule here is to listen to them. 2 words. I'm really getting tired of hearing as it revolves around a s rate. Increased data centers. Realistically there the leap project. These are all encompassing. This is like a cancer that's spreading through the body and it needs to be cut out. The 2 words or transparency and growth. These companies were not transparent to begin with. I don't want more transparency. I just don't want to deal with that as personally as a as a resident. If they've already shown their colors. And we're seeing this time and time again, where were last-minute finding out about data centers rate increases. 25 million
gallons of water leaving Eagle Creek and then being don't back where the last one snow. So transparency and growth. The obsession with growth. He's gotten so out of control. What good is growth when there is no environment to support that growth? We are extracting everything. We're bleeding, the earth dry and again, just like house Brown said this is not some hippy Dippy, you know, saying it's that we are literally. At capacity if not past that and what we're doing with these data centers is just allowing the these companies and corporations who are just in it for a dollar sign. They are you sacrificing the state of Indiana, cheap land. They're able to get away with certain things that maybe
they can get away with in other states and behind closed doors. They're laughing at you like you're fools because they got away with this. So please stop data centers from entering our communities and harming our people. Maxey Courtney b, Kevin and incur an. Alex Pond. City councilors. And here to tell you that the lack of zoning laws ordinances and regulations on data centers are impacting my community and here to advocate for a full complete total, all encompassing moratorium on data centers. I'm a data analyst. I work with I stuff. It's all. Just useless right now as many other prisoners have mentioned, managing the resources associated with the surge of data centers is a larger task that expand beyond local and county boundaries. I live in Township near the American Tower Corporation
proposed Edge data center. Atc American Tower Corp is an 80 billion dollar company. The following comes from a publication for potential investors and customers. They have 43,000 towers across the U.S. They've identified 1000 tower sites that are ideal for multi phase data center development. Like many data center developers, they look for cheap land in this case. They own it. They don't care what's around it. They own it. They're going to do what they can with it. They look for 10 cited a time. The spot in Indianapolis is advertised as 36 Buildable acres. They're worried their current rezoning request is for 7 acres. So they're still 29 acres that they can build on at. Whenever they decide it's gonna be easier for them to push through. Once they get this zoning request approved. So in a public meeting, they misled not a of Pete people over over 100 people on their intentions
and outright denied their plans to build a data center complex that has diesel generators that encompasses 36 acres and they're going to build this right next to apartment complexes in 450 brand new homes. In addition to 50 long-term residents, it's in the same power grid as Saint Vincent Hospital. Somebody else asked them, express their concern about that. And, you know, possibly their loved ones dying, confuse the atc project manager said this isn't going to impact the school. So there's no accountability. They don't care what they're doing and they don't care about the community for businesses. Profit is the motivator. Businesses have figured out the fastest cheapest way to build these and we need to regulate them are all screwed. Name is Courtney It was noted in the first presentation of the predominant benefit of data
centers where solely in corporate enterprises he did very deregulation of environmental protections in Indiana were enacted to make it easier to create environmentally dangerous, dangerous infrastructure such as this. These products don't benefit residents. They cost from tax abatements that can last for decades to those that will be impacted from long-term health. Questions regarding the cost of the great falls short because we know that rate pairs will foot the bill. A s hikes have not been completed from the last time that they had requested an increase and the most recent time they were not denied. I'm curious why in the Parks department was not notified for a consultation as this is a city asset and they should have a voice and they
are our environmental stewards, our known Impact, Eagle Creek would overwhelm the Eagle Creek Reservoir regardless of wastewater infrastructure. Developments in Lebanon. Talk to conditions from Eagle Creek environment could have an irreversible impact. Not to mention as this water flows from eagle. It turn returns downstream to the Ohio River Valley, which is much greater than just Indianapolis alone. We need to read if redefine data centers by category and use in and put in place a moratorium until that language is defined specifically and explicitly with respect Indianapolis, environmental goals. The fact that leap Project begins building without city insight regarding the impact of city's drinking water in our green
spaces is concerning. And as a resident insulting data centers have a tendency to limit information about their plans to build but are virtually impossible to hold accountable for noise, light soil, water and air pollution. It was noted a question by council how you can shove the cost of upgrades to ai centers. But I would add to this question by asking, how do we hold them accountable for the irreplaceable environmental cost to our city as PRESIDENT Of Georgia, Texas, Virginia, and so many others. What happened to their property values their homes, many of which they have known for decades, the for Medicaid in. We need to more as soon as possible. Thank you. Thank you, CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Council my name is Kevin with
Earth charter Indiana data centers might be. I'm going to give you your time back because I've been in Repi just briefly and say her stride or Indiana is based in council district 7. So I just want to give you a beach actually started time over Kevin Nicholson, data centers might be a complicated but public sentiment about them are pretty straightforward. Previously. I worked in Indiana State government for the Indiana broadband office prior to working for Earth Charter. I was digital equity adviser focused on things like rural broadband and matters of digital equity like Wi-Fi hotspots for remote learning more digital skills training. In public life So I'm not anti tech, but I am anti hasty development. So at around the
same that I started with charter that reflect press about a bunch of these data center developments, including the one in Franklin Township. I didn't know a lot about the topic, frankly. So I decided to go to the Midwest Data Center Investor Conference and Expo in Chicago. When I got to hear from the investors and developers and the Celts. So I heard directly from these people, all of the predatory tactics that they want to use to integrate themselves into our communities like paying off neighbors, suppressing protesters to out of state staging areas or getting in good with local politicians before the project is an ounce. Can teach can stick. Your constituents are all scared and resolute in their rejection of this wave of development. So please listen to them. Thank you to my
counselor. Just Brown for supporting the wishes of me and the rest of your constituents. And thank you to counselor heart for listening to your constituents when Google was trying to build that massive facility in Franklin Township. Good afternoon. Good afternoon Council. My name is Kurt Miller, attorney, the lives in Irvington, Indiana. And I I think this body has a tremendous opportunity to craft an ordinance that leads as opposed to an ordinance that follows are following whatever ordinance comes from the state or other bodies, this body can pass policies involving the definition of a data center policies related to setbacks, decibel restrictions plans for power consumption and offsetting the increased cost passed on to the consumer water usage pollution and importantly, plans for commission. I challenge this body to lead the way for future cities to address these issues and keep our Hoosier state healthy,
smart and clean. Thank you. Next. For 6 to my account. So you just have to go. A couple years ago. I was sitting on my neighbor's porch and she was talking about her kidney journey. So I decided at that day that I was going to go and test or water. The tap water was fine and I had 5 test. So I decided like, you know, what public full of harm, the fact that just I mean, taking out the sky, let me see was going to. I found that, you that it was contaminated. So I spent the last year and some China contact. I'd mtn are ideal age Marin County Health Department to tell everybody what's been going on. And I was met with some abrasion by some people who told me just because I said that it was happening doesn't mean that it that it that that is true. So I went and I got I started like a little company. Again,
investors and went and a kind department and the ideal weight again for them to come from what I've been trying to tell everybody about what's going on and the elevated levels of manganese sodium. Not so calcium. Zinc, there's like 6 measure metals that are both the epa limit that's causing people I'm this is kind of like where my with seeing right now is just I don't even want to show up. I think I gave him the report like last year met with so many people and it's just like I'm pleading to the public to for some type of initiative to maintain clean air and water in our county. Okay. Thank a chilled w Scott and and my name is Rachel. Over 10, I live near Eagle Creek Reservoir and I'm in District 5 represented by Maggie Lewis. Thank you. CHAIRMAN Virus,
Maggie Lewis stand Boots and other city council members for your op-ed in IndyStar speaking about our community's concerns about the leap project, easing millions of gallons of water from Eagle Creek every day for the leave industrial project in Lebanon, which will include the Meta data center. I kindly ask for the council to consider asking the mayor to not sign any agreements with citizens, energy that will facilitate sending this water to the leap District. I also ask you to discuss how the city could move forward with a study to examine any potential impact people have on Eagle Creek Reservoir our water and our environment. On DECEMBER 20th, I started the change org
petition to Save Eagle Creek. As of today, there are over 14,000 signatures and 160 comments from concerned Citizens. The Eagle Creek Reservoir is a central water source not only for my community, but for the entire city of Indianapolis. It is more than just a scenic landscape. It's a vital component of healthy living for our families. The proposed extraction from the leap Project, including Meadows Data Center could reduce the reservoirs levels impacting not only our drinking water, also diminishing recreational opportunities that are numerous families enjoy. The introduction of wastewater back into the watershed is even more concerning and such actions increase the risk of contaminating the reservoir with pollutants that could harm both the ecosystem and human health once polluted the cleanup of the waterways, you can be extraordinarily
expensive and time-consuming alternatives must be explored that do not create place our precious water and ecology at risk. Please do not send. Indianapolis is drinking water to a data center and please do not return wastewater Eagle Creek. We do not need ai-generated pictures of our pets and children. We do not need a I to think or speak for U.S. Data centers are threatening our children's future in numerous ways. I ask for a moratorium and there's plenty of other states asking for this to have more toward moratoriums as well. I Thank you. Scott Mosher lifelong Hoosier and broad Ripple resident. Thank you for all the comments. Cause. I think that there's a couple things are very, very clear. One is you guys are in the driver's seat. Why? Because there is significant public opposition to this. This topic and why?
Well, because they're asking themselves, what does our community get for all of this? What does our community get for a data center and the answer almost always is not a whole lot. They do not generate a whole lot of of jobs. Also on JANUARY 13th, the vice CHAIRMAN Of Microsoft actually put out a blog post as public information. You can see it. To outline a community first data center approach which addresses things like they will pay their way for their energy and they'll and to the community tax base and they'll there and training in jobs. And that's thing. You guys are in the driver's seat, whether it's the township city County state level of
government. This is what you guys are meant for. You can say to these these corporations, give us something. Give us more than what we're giving you give us some jobs. Give us, you know, infrastructure. Give us. We're not going to give you tax rebates. You know, that's for think so. You have you're in the driver's seat. You can make it happen. By you, I mean, all the government and hopefully something good will come out of it. Thank you. Hi, Megan, with Protect Pike Township. I wanted to share some facts right I data centers have 80% power demand equivalent of what we use today in Indiana. We cannot have more data centers. I have been supporting communities Michigan City and for links.
They work for an environmental nonprofit and the Google Data Centre said they in fact needed no new energy and no infrastructure in 2023. And then this year we saw 7 billion dollar case for Indiana, Michigan power customers with 39% of those cars going to every day. Hoosiers to foot the bill for Amazon and Google's Energy needs. Also am part of efforts, you know, regarding the on call and moving away from coal power. And we have a tool to see order keeping the Shafer coal plant open. And just a couple of months ago to commit the county commissioners, there got an application to rezone part of the Shafer Coal plant site from agricultural to industrial. And there was no disclosure that that would house a new gas plant and also
a new data center. And once you invite this infrastructure and build it up more and more come already. Morgan Counties data center, which about twice as much energy as it Indianapolis residents and our manufacturers will not be here. If there's not reliable power, this is a great way to lose jobs in Indianapolis. So I encourage specific zoning for data centers are state and federal laws fail hoosier's Google Data Center in Fort Wayne is up to 179 diesel generators without pollution controls. That is a multibillion dollar company that can afford the best diesel generator or even better battery storage and less polluting diesel Jenner's. It's a mile from New Haven schools. It is by a lot of homes. And, you know, American time might seem like a nice company, but their plan is to expand that site. Tear down the forest there. There's
Crooked Creek next door. They're our wetlands and it will be boxed in by people's homes over 1000 residents have opposed American towers plan. And as the company, you know, let's say expand, you have more diesel generators. Would you consider coordinating with local schools to make sure you don't test them while children are plane and they said we'll think about it. That was last year. And then a month ago, they tell us they're using here, too. So please pass a moratorium. Thank you. Michael is with that force for all. And also chief of staff of the rest of them across America. That will give a shout out to Megan and to Shannon because back in 2013 a lot younger. And think kids at the time. And we got the city Council back then to take a statement against gives Burning coal in
Marion County. And the mayor was out to launch a people say was impossible to get a to that energy company to listen to And within 5 months, 6 months, we've got a cold plate ship stop burning coal and those because the city council took a leadership so shutout Zach Adams to be out there listening. He led that fight for us it says, I think about the road ahead here. I think our hope is that the city council, it is our moral voice. It is where we can. We have. We're closest to it. We can make the biggest difference and your moral voice that we need right now say let's put a moratorium on data centers. I was at several meetings this last couple of weeks and months. The citizens Energy had thank other in board meeting 7.30, in JANUARY
We were at tight to Jeff Harrison, the ceo of Psych I felt was talking got almost because he is so so protected from conversation. You know, I grew up swimming legal creek and that's my home park and people showed up ready to go. I you know, I was at the data center conversation with American power last week or 2 weeks ago. Those 4 people got ran out of the room. They get geordan time id as they were leaving. He was there was pretty awesome. I and we want to protect our forests that are water and these these data centers are just a disaster for we're trying to do in terms of protecting our climate. So please be a moral voice, a clear voice. Let's
just get this Last last point, Madison, Wisconsin, just call got a moratorium passed. The U.S. One of the largest cities. So I think the city council could be the largest city in America to call for a moratorium and the 6, at least a six-month earmark moratorium. So let's be that voice. Thank you very much. Thank thank. Thank you to everyone who came out tonight. As I mentioned, this is fluid process. Where were we really digging into this year? A comment, sir, I really appreciate them and lots of perspectives at their people are taking this very seriously and they're in there working through it. And they're looking at all levels of government and trying understand how do we how do we manage this situation with this hundreds of pull for Asian rather of data center. So that's not the last time we
talked about this. The council will move forward There's multiple a ideas. Concepts that are being moved forward. There's a lot of legal analysis that has to be done and a lot of consideration that has to happen. And so I can tell you that there will be action that will take in than in the not too distant future. And we hope that everyone here who has been here with such passion stays connected. And when you see those, those proposals come for that you come and you weigh in on him stay say working with us as we as we work to to address this issue. Now. I was going to say that was the end of our meeting. But I Promise Council, have the opportunity to to say one last comment about the next part meeting. So council person. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, just want to get the
word out next. Thursday on the 5th at 5.30, in this room, our Parks committee is going hear a presentation from the Eagle Creek Advisory Committee talking about exactly the leap. Eagle Creek Reservoir Project. So if you want to hear and we might even invite additional people for the agenda, so next Thursday, 5, 30 here in the public Assembly room. We're going to talk specifically about the Creek Project. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, thank you. CHAIRMAN CHAIRMAN of the And with hearing, no objections. We are