Good evening, everybody. Thanks for coming this Today is OCTOBER. 28 06:00pm are in the city County building. This is a meeting of the rules committee. We're first going to start off by introductions. Start in the far left with counselor Delaney. Good evening, MR. CHAIRMAN and Elaine from District 2. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Jessica McCormick District 16. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, I'm a guest this evening. My name is Michael part representing District 20. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Mike do district 24. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Josh district 21. Thank you. MISTER Chair Brian Mowery District. 25. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Ali Brown District 10. Good evening, CHAIRMAN. Anything else in District, 14 East side. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, Good, even all DR. Carlos Perkins District 6. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Leroy Robinson
District Good evening. Maggie List district 5 s. Good evening. Office of District 12. Thank you, everybody. 9 vice Chair Butte's lab, the honor of chairing the meeting this evening. Today we have a combination of the working group, members of our council. In addition to the rules Committee. So I like to call this meeting to order and thank you all for being here tonight. As we hear about the steps, the city county has taken to update its harassment policies and procedures and to consider any appropriate legislative action. I particularly want to thank the working group that consists counselor delay the counselor, Nielsen Council McCollum, a counselor, Harden counselor, vain, and also a great things to council peers and rakes towers for all the effort they put in heretofore leading up to this meeting. So this is important sensitive topic and we appreciate your engagement
as we work toward a safer, more accountable workplace for all city County employees. As we know our most important asset for the city is its people, its not our dump trucks. It's not our snow plows. Its our people. So before we begin, I want to clearly outline of purpose and structure of tonight's meeting. This meeting is focused solely on revealing steps. Are taking and discussing future policy changes. We are here to evaluate options here. Public input. The consider improvements moving forward. With all due respect, this is not the appropriate venue to raise individual complaints, pass incidents or personnel matters. We understand that some MAY have strong feelings on these issues or have personal troubling
experiences. But this meeting is not designed to adjudicate a revisit specific cases. To ensure respectful an orderly process. All public comments should be directed to me as the chair and not to any individual staff members, committee members or presenters. Representatives from the city's human resources are here to present steps already taken and future options in to answer general procedural questions posed by our counselors. They will not be responding to any questions or comments about specific incidents, investigations or personnel decisions. It would be inappropriate for them to do so in a public forum such as tonight's meeting. Excuse me, we asked that everyone maintain a respectful tone, stay focused on constructive
feedback about tonight's presentations. If you have concerns about individual matters, please use appropriate internal channels outside of this meeting to raise those individual concerns. Again, please note this meeting is intended or 2 intended to foster constructive discussion in public or problem solving. It is not a forum for public criticism or blame to ensure respectful and focused environment. Only counselors will be asking questions during the session. Additionally, the conversation will not center on specific cases individuals as previously mentioned. Well, Lester examples MAY be used to highlight systemic challenges are potential solutions. The discussion will remain policy
focused and forward looking. On more personal note, we realize this topic in an emotionally-charged one. And we sympathize with what many of you in this room this evening or elsewhere MAY have experienced. We sincerely apologize for what you've been through. We want to ensure that nothing like what has happened in the past ever happens again in the future. Once again, we thank you for your participation and commitment in improving our city's workplace culture. With that, we'll begin with a discussion of the current hr recommendations that hour working group have compiled. And if the clerk would turn to the next slide. There are 7 listed. And I'm sorry, they
MAY not a major paper. Group that got distributed. But these are the ones. Temporary appointment of an ad-hoc inspector general. Creation of an independent human resources board. Consideration of an independent office of equal opportunity. Promoting awareness and access to reporting tools. Audits of hr investigations. Creating a universal harassment free work environment. Yearly aggregate reporting of harassment statistics. Those are the 7 that we studying tonight and going forward and any others that are worthy that come to our attention. Having said that will now invite. Council beeler forward. To give us summary of current policies and what has happened in the
last several months from the a churn occ perspective. Feel free to sit up front or even up front. If you'd like. Could throw stuff at you closer. If you're sitting here. We'll let be in charge of the slides as you move forward and the floor is yours. Great. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN and members of the committee. My name is Brandon I serve as the corporation counsel for the city of Indianapolis. And I thank you for having me here here tonight to give you an update on on the actions the city county enterprise has taken the last 15 months. The first to hire focus on trainings. I first want to know that harassment training was made mandatory in the city code back in 2019 and then
AUGUST of 2024, the mayor signed an executive order as we clear the mandatory training that was past and is still an ordinance is for supervisors only as something that's required to do every 2 years back last year in AUGUST of 2024, the mayor signed an executive order that requires mandatory harassment training for all employees every year. The street is sent to employees employees. The this offer a lesson employees are notified multiple times e-mails that the training is available to him to complete with the deadlines and something I want to highlight his committee. Is that because we have in place the enterprise that you not have email or computers, human resources is coordinated to make sure that those trains are available to workers who don't have those resources
just last year, the human resource departments conducted 10 in-person trainings to cover and make sure every play was trained as well as a plans to continue that again this year with all of our city county employees. And this year on SEPTEMBER 9th, the harassment training for supervisors and non supervisors out and the due date to complete that for all employees is NOVEMBER. 30th. Supervisors also receive a weekly report from human resources so they keep track of their employees to make sure that the training is done. Timely. The next kind of talk about is the anonymous reporting system. So last AUGUST, we begin demonstrations of 6 different third-party anonymous reporting system vendors for the city county enterprise to
consider this is a coordinated effort between h r o and Pham risk Management, the Office of Audit and Performance. I sa and the City County Council. But personally think council is currently no McCormick Wilson who are engaged in this process with us. The vendors were scored based on 6 different categories and aggregated average to get a quantitative ranking. Speak fully was selected and work began right away on implementation. While the we're continue to get the fully set up, I say launched an anonymous reporting tool that we use temporally within the system within the city county. Allows employees have the option to anonymously report. And so he gets the flee under contract and get the isc infrastructure so it
function properly. We are proud to officially launch. We are proud to officially launch the beginning of this year. I do apologize for your hand out and say 2024 should say January 2025. His credit on the slide. No, it's not. So that was actually be at this year. Since then, the many ways to access the fully has been featured in hr newsletters and fires have distributed to all offices and a link to the system is also available on the city county spent or not. And now to some of the employee resources. We have that have been around. But we also Mason Hansen's to a few of them. So employees here in city county to have access to mental health support and resources through several different channels. The employee assistance program or what we call the
eap provides free counseling as well as guidance for legal financial work-life balance needs for all employees and their families. It offers 24 7 confidential support, accessible in person by phone video chat. Behavioral health services are also available through marathon, which is the city county's health provider. This free resource offers coaching therapy treatment for stress, anxiety, grief, depression, and more. The service is available for all employees and covered dependents, 12 and older are accessible to in-person phone or video visit options. This past year we expanded marathon service and now we allowed employees can make a point with a therapist without first requiring a referral from their provider. And this last year we continue to expand available resources for the city County employees, which includes adoption of the new
anonymous reporting system in previously discussed as well as a new hand out for employees that provides detailed information on what to expect from the reporting investigation process. Should they have a workplace related concern or complains the 3 p's that information on this and out for employees. First of all, provides the listed in play resources there that employees are aware. Second describes investigative process. So there's less a priceless questions or confusion about how each our investigates complaints. And finally it. And it includes what employees appeal rights are. I'm next in or internal working groups. So in early AUGUST of last year, planning groups convened a cabinet members, members of h r occ to start working to address the company. Culture concerns. This route help procure state fully created. The is
harassment and company culture, working groups and to pick a vendor for the Cultural Assessment survey. This planning group continues to meet on a regular basis to move initiatives forward. The advisory group consists of a subset of cabinet members and county officials who provided strategic advising and will provide final approval recommendations. This group is that 8 times this year. I want to thank all the staff is taking time out of their busy schedules to participate in this internal working groups to ensure that employee voices are heard. The talk these 2 subset groups that I previously mentioned. The first one is the harassment policy working group. This group is led by our chief diversity officer been Tapper and this group is not about half a dozen times. This spearheaded the updating of the city County
enterprises, harassment policy, which included adding definitions. More details on the reporting procedures and ensuring that the updated policy reflects best practices. This group spearheaded r this fall an updated version of the aggressive policy was approved by the Inter by this internal advisory group. And that policy is now being incorporated into the city County Agers manual and required acknowledgment for. Context of that. Any time a major update happens to the employee to Human Resources manual acknowledgement form is required to sign by all city county employees to show that they are aware of the new policy understanding policy. And this update. We anticipate intend to have done by the end of the year. The next working group we have is the company culture working group. So this working group is led by the director of office director of the Office didn't perform at
West Jones as well as the chief diversity officer been Tapper. This group is not a total of 8 times this year and plans to next year. So far the group has reviewed and edited the Cultural Assessment survey and develop the rollout process and ensure aimed at ensuring that employees had by engagement leading into the AUGUST 11 survey opening the bulk of this group's work will begin. Once we receive results from the Cultural Assessment survey. Now, let's talk a little bit about the employee survey. MAY have heard this one out to give you some information about this. Is that and spring this year that the playing group selected rest tell us to assist us in the development execution analysis of the Cultural Assessment survey also selected due to their vast experience working with
government entities. The company Culture Working Group. An advisory group helped draft it approved the survey questions. To ensure trust and participation in the anonymous survey, a webinar was conducted recorded by Rick. Tell us to answer questions for any interested employees. Supervisors were also asked to encourage their employees to participate. The survey was open for 3 weeks to ensure plenty of time for participation. We received about a 30 per 3% participation rate from eligible employees. One survey close draft tell us came in car came in person to perform 9 focus groups to collect more data and to clean deeper insights. We're still waiting on the final results and recommendations which we hope to receive by the end of the year. We are committed to working with the company Culture working Group Advisory
Group to review and implement pilot programs to continue to improve our city county enterprise. And that will conclude the updates. I thank you all for your work on this important effort. And we are committed to continuing to work alongside you. Thank you for your time tonight. Thank you. Council Any questions from any member of group Yes, sir. MADAM Leader, thank you, MISTER CHAIRMAN, thank you so much for your presentation. Just a little clarification. So on harassment policy working group is led by the chief diversity officer been taper. Could this 2.2? So Ben Tapper is cabinet level official. So same applies directly to the mayor, mayor, the chief of staff of the mayor, and okay. I just want to make sure that there's like a direct. Line any issues that makes his way up to the 25th
floor. Yes, so so you believe these reporting record Parker to the chief of staff. Okay. Any additional costs just council Nielsen. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Council Beeler for update. Could sorry. If someone my son, could you kind of walk through? This is a technical question on the speak. Fully peace, that it is an anonymous reporting tool. And so how are? How How are complaints or allegations handled and then disaggregated. So that preserves. Confidentiality. But also, you know, like could you MAY walk through how that is handle, if you can on on ploy, you were to submit submit a ticket. Sure they might best obviously is very case-by-case. And what what how much information and
employee provides initially and all that. So let's take it through. An employee wants remain anonymous that report bad workplace behavior, they believe rises to a level that violent city county policy. So that complete is gone. It goes in It's monitored by the professionals and human resources. The few people who do investigations I've seen there's a demonstration how the interface works or not overly familiar with that because that really don't get involved. That investigatory state typically. If the person was on then it's kind of like a chat. It's almost as if so the the some standard operating procedures for hr and they're continuing to perfect those. But they can ask questions and ok, can you tell us what department here in can you tell us any more information or we try to be specific or they try to be as specific as possible and what information can help them get
started. An investigation. We just always to be someone's name. So they true. They have, you know, different things in there. Arsenal of tools. They can start trying to get more information from the employee that remains open and implications and thinking don't close it when and so essentially it's a sort of a private air phase that the employee can access from personal devices from their home devices. Were computers as well. So essentially goes to the point where it is enough information. It's given. Does rise to what complaint is meeting that it's a violation, says artist Island City County policy in the workplace and Percy workplace procedures and policies. It'll start story process as they can with the need to pull. Data documents, information where start interviewing. Other want to be like concerns were those are words questions and that's another safely can be used for
that. If you just how the general question don't want to identify yourself about a question. Our policies you can do that equally as well. Ultimately, it's still it's the avenue for a charting as much information as they protecting that employees right to remain anonymous to investigate. And if editors found stop that. So then was a as as want to submitted his case. A summit is being investigated. I know one of the as you know, from following this, something that was brought up during the investigative committee process. And I wasn't the only one. Was what happens at the point with some things that brought up about an elected official, either county executive member of this body. How has how does Gore will speak fully process informed that decision are in for Matt
process going forward. Hey, answer that has really does depend on just kind of the nature of what is known. It's hard put that. I mean, I say that. If that's the case, think it's something that it would be treated the same as ever. The complaint, we want information. We want to know if there's bad, bad behavior happening. We try to ensure that employee reassured him her them that. They're they're they're they have a right. They have a protected right to complain about that behavior. But it isn't anything trigger. The sense the standard operating procedures and investigating a complaint that behavior, whether it's elected official or not, it's still investigated as really is a candy. Thank Council Bay. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, thank you, MR. Dylan, for the presentation being here tonight. I think anything that the city does to try to
rebuild trust and create a better working environment is a step in the right direction. That being said about these working groups, the harassment policy working group, a and company culture working group. I see there being led by director Tapper and record Jones. I outside of their current city government role. What qualifies them to leave that working group? Guess other both very qualified individuals generally speaking. But I think. I know was a goal of at least administration forming these to get it reversed opinion, a diversity of not only. Background and where we all we all work in different departments. We all different needs. We have, you know, different subcultures in our department's. I think. To conjecture, conjecture a bit
was that these folks could help identify members of group or should the PRESIDENT Have different voices help us come together to have conference of policy that would that is at all departments. So is there outside h r Consulting going on throughout processing. You know, when the council decided to look into. This whole situation and we will hr professionals while that process ultimately have some falls, I believe the intent was there, too. Make sure you're talking to the appropriate individuals and working with hr experts. Do you know for those 2 policy working groups are? And you better working with a car. Experts cause. I don't exactly know the full employment history and qualifications of
Director Jones. But don't. Recall top my head seeing that as a part of their work history. I think for that, I think that the the interest were different. They're the ones to look into the specific situation or situations that occurred. This one I think was focused on let's hear employees like. And so I think they reflecting more is having a better tap on the diversity of work workers we have within the enterprise and to hear from employees what they felt was lacking where they felt unsupported, where they felt there are gaps in the system. And that and I think so the gold or just different, know, no outs. A human resource experts at this point have been have been identified for this work at this point. I've got a couple questions to a credit to the rest of the counselors sprinkle my mind we go. Is there any currently any
annual? Reporting, an aggregate basis of the statistics from the hr department as complaints filed. The nature of those filings and complaints disposition of those cases. I don't know. Report has been compiled for even internal publication. In my preparations this is rough. Know this is not official that I believe when I was looking in to this day. So since fully went live, we've roughly had about 123 submissions. And I know we've talked about complaints and concerns and the difference between them, they're about half and half so half the concerns. Questions about what the policy is, the other half being roughly about what complaints are of those of those 123, only 4 were complaints of harassment. And after investigation, only one resulted in a finding that city county policy harassment policy was in fact, by later. I do a number contacts and for
full transparency, disclosure. They're 5 county offices that have their own hr departments. So if a kid does so part of the one twenty-three's coming in, so it's a county courts that it would be a pro police shipped off to them also use it on a system that they now one the city county charter handle those that that's kind of a rough numbers. Okay. As the disposition of the one case where harassment was found, I do not know. Truly didn't know. I cry report back. Another quick question during the process or the complainants routinely updated on the stage or the phase of the investigation. I believe so. I know that they've been working with the soapy isn't trying to keep keep keep the the complaint and a prize that moving. I know difficult. I think that some conservatives certainly have heard. So I know that that is happening and should that happen more? We're in workers at some
people know and those who have made complaints are aware that still invested. So those are just a matter. Time is a document is that can take time to go through e-mails, also scheduling interviews and things that is important for us to let them play. No, that they are and we are investigating actively and we do try to make sure that employees feel safe if we need to move workplaces, do something that of that nature we are willing and we do actively do that within our investigations as well. Okay. Thank you. Council Brown. Thank you, CHAIRMAN I want kind of jump back to County serving was talking about earlier and answer to a question when we talk about the vast trust people have lost trust in what's going on. Frankly, lost my trust. Some the stuff. And so the idea of just going straight to the 25th floor and reporting it
makes me uneasy, right? Because things are reported to the 25th floor before. And we're here. So is there a way that we because when things get center counselors, they become public record, right? So we have to be careful to protect people. But is there a way we can get it done on mice report from director's Tapper and Jones about the what is happening in the U.S. Harassment groups that are asked policy working group and the cultural working group. So that we can be responsive to the people who are coming to us to say what the heck is going on. You know, any of that kind of stuff right now. I want to protect people and they're what they're saying and make sure they're protected in their workplace. And when stuff comes to us. But I would feel much more comfortable exposing this making sure everyone exposed to what has a chance to know
what's going on because no The trust just isn't there. I appreciate that. I and to the extent we can do that, I'll certainly take that internal and happy to work with you on on games with the search is develop its griddle that you counselor. Thank you, MR. Chair kind of people backing off of the people around there. I agree. I think. There should be a better way than to go straight to the 25th floor with this. Because what we've seen in this investigation is that there's been a lot of trust Lawson. Having all these issues roll right up to the person that caused all this doesn't seem like it's going to be beneficial to the people. To me, it would people wouldn't be is trust. We're trusting of this process because they know where it's going end up in. If there's a way for us to figure that out,
I'm not sure who that we're all of 2. I think, you know, you could probably work on something like that where we figure out a way to try to take 24 out of it. What we've seen is. Things were handled I a these are handled legally, not necessarily ethically. And I think that's going occur creating a lot of has as a station and people's mind to really want to go come forward and say something see what's happened so far. So. I would hope we can find a way to that done. So thank you. The counselor. Yes, council counselor Heart. Thank you, MR. I guess what? Keep that conversation going in alive, you know, comes to mind for me is that there was a lot of a lot of working groups we
mentioned rightly mentioned. Policy advisory committee culture. There's a documentation here that there was an additional. 9 focus groups conducted to collect more data and information, including deeper insights during that time were alternative reporting methodologies consider brought up and were denied for particular reason that they wouldn't be feasible that ultimately led to the decision to take it to the 24. So quickly separate out the 9 working groups. Those were together by rep tell us the company that did the survey too. Kareem, because day after I die. I don't know what they did. I'm not a statistician. Are. Do think they got information and what a difference? A different one additional information and found group. So that was not
necessarily did too. The workers, as far as policy goes out was to get more information as they prepared the survey results from the cult. The company's survey on the other groups, the advisory groups and the harassment of the company culture Group don't exactly know. Therefore, they I think in my understanding it was all to be inclusive and a pick, folks that maybe we're a bit disconnected or just the least who knew the enterprise and employees that are of that. I think these points well taken. Okay. I'm your and my my thought being is that we've gone through as as part of our working group. Every went through a lot of ideas from a lot of different folks. And we were able to that. Some of those do various legal counsels and we have
explanations of why particular things. You know, we're going to work. And so. As we continue to look forward, a policy recommendations from our side, I just think it would be helpful to see what y'all considered and any particular reason that it wasn't considered in your your policy recommendations. Council beeler, if I MAY ask, is the current? Means of appealing hr decision that the complainant disagrees with. it's a pretty standard. Is that after the end of the nsa Tory process, if the complainant disagrees with the result, which in case would be that either a violation of policy did not occur or violation occurred. But the discipline to isn't severe enough. They disagree the discipline wasn't severe
enough. They can go to stand for this place that you see was independent investigatory agency over a of workplace conduct or the India Civil Rights Commission. The icrc does. That's similar work in both avenues. And that's what we put on our information sheet. So employees are aware that's a possibility because we did here and please do not know that was an option to them at the end of the process. Council prudence. Thank you, MR. I want to just bring some clarity. A couple of things that we're throwing I think we're confused and a bit. The difference between the working groups. The Culture Assessment survey. The deeper questions to the focus group. And you're anonymous reporting systems. So I think we asking questions that seem
to be conflating those things together. My understanding is you are working. Groups works established internally to further look at policies and practices. The survey focus group came on board as a result off the culture survey and wanted to know more and asking people questions. Those things are separate from your anonymous reported structure that's in place, correct? That is correct. I will just clarify that the cultural, the cultural. Working that the company called for working Group charged with doing the survey does what he's looking and so they were part because that is the group that went together employee feedback, not just from members of the group employees and their department. Questions that
would be relevant to really getting answers on company culture. So my question then becomes for your arrest. Policy working group. So the fall of 2020 5 that the policy was approved by the advisory group. The final policy or whatever the policy looks like. Can you share that with us? Is that anywhere in terms of what was recommended by the working? Yes, do believe that we did have a brief. Was shared with some council do it all. The counselors, buddy. It can Yes, we can share that yes, Scotland. Thank you. This counselor Delaney. Thank you, MR. Chair. Hadar 7 recommendations that we presented the end. Part of the recommendations included appointment of a temporary ad hoc inspector general and our creation of an independent human resources board. In both of as part of their
formulation. Talk about truly be independent of the current reporting systems that are there. And I know we have a couple questions about, well, what happens when you're reporting to the number one person or an elected official? How do we make sure that those complaints are also remain fairly adjudicated? And and I think that some of the concerns that I heard from over here and I think these recommendations that we're putting forward a keeper fish or Phillips. And that was that the truly independent part was it had to address that. But part of going through all this, they're there MAY be some problems with having things truly independent, cause of the public records portion and things that if you have a truly independent board, you know, the things that the board has would have to become public. So I was
hoping that maybe you could talk a little bit about that is our recommendations seem to be a little In contradiction to what MAY be possible and hoping you could talk about that as to why we can't. Maybe we can say we need something truly independent. But if you could talk a little bit about that. Thank all so clear. Yet, As we at least from our perspective, he's tried to evaluate all recommendations from that counsel. For Fisher Phillips from others who worked here. Still work here. Don't work here. I think. There was a problem. We've I looked at several different inspector general models. It's hard to see what we work for the city at this point. It doesn't mean the doors closed on any of those ideas that it really is the independents think that would be the fundamental hard part of disclosing because at the
heart of where everyone's interest a liar that witnesses survivors complains have the right not to be identified. Should they not want to be identified? And 2 terms of a 2 to another board. We make investors that Ariel public record so it seemed to not strike that balance that we have it figure out a way at this to do that. I think end of that oversight has certainly been. The idea in our head. I think it is challenging to get there with frankly the limitations of in government. Thank you. And I have one additional question, but I can wait come around. Sure. We'll have plenty of opportunities go around the because her kids. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN just wanted to close the loop on what I was asking before there was some question about the qualification of individuals
that are run in the working group. And I think that those individuals have stepped up to do the difficult work in the midst of all that we were doing. So we want highlight and applaud them by nature of the work that they do for the enterprise allows. And that gives him the credibility and the credentials to be able to run the working group. The question that I want to ask, though, is. I wonder if what we can learn from the climate survey. And the legal questions that might help us former decision. Move into an independent human resource board. This is my challenge. If the discovery is the current climate and culture that exists. Is brought on by this administration. That will change after the next election. Then do we make a decision now? That is a
decision for the future. In fact, in the Enterprise. If the issue is is a culture climate that exists now that needs to change. I believe it is. There's a culture, the climate that exists now that needs to change. Is the decision. Future decision for a 7 independent board or this something that needs to be done now with the current. Administration and the climate that exists. And I think we can learn some of that from the climate culture. Hear from current employees and knowing what we know now. Got some ground. Just being back in a little bit what council Germany set. Everyone just keeps giving thoughts. And it just brings me back to this because hr is created to protect the enterprise, right? That's what
employees have grieved hers. If we don't have ig or anything like that, is there a way we can create an office that is effectively agree Ver for our city employees because who is going to advocate for them with hr is. To protect the enterprise. That's what it does. Right? It's not to protect employees is to protect Enterprise. In a way it protects employees by protecting the enterprise. But no one is there pull the hand of somebody who's now going against the deputy mayor of the city of Indianapolis with the debt. You MAY receive an a plus part of rise right? 2 requests. So how do we get? How do we get grieve or or something? And I g something that is actually there for the
victim for the employee, whether they're employing more or not. If your union, you have that. But we have quite a deal of non-union employees that don't have that kind of protection. And this MAY be a question to for the society, human resources. So if you are racist management, that's coming up later. But that's something that's really important because no one's there to advocate. And as someone who's been a victim of assault, it's taken me 20 years to to keep for myself on this. So I want to make sure that people feel protected and have that support. And if that support is somebody who's appointed and then it comes down. I mean, where is that protection? Did you have any comment on that council beeler over? Not at point is certain
take from from my perch. I do think hr served roles and are staying here. I think in my years of or maybe a perception issue because kind of a varios, the seas chop is a project. The enterprise from, you know, legal and challenges. Does take their role seriously and providing employees support ensure employees complain, feel safe or feel? They can complain freely without consequence and that their complaints will be taken seriously and believed. So I think that. I I hear that I think continue to remind us as we think through different whether its policies or changes of ordinance or what it is. I think that's very important point. Question for me. Council be when was the last time the employee manual was substantially revised? I believe that I'm going when really I believe it was. 22
was a last stand Shull. 22 or 21 stamp on the front of 22. So the first see all these recommendations that are coming from these, you know, the culture group and harassment policy group, these just going to be tweaks and additions or deletions to the current policy as you move forward. As far as the workplace harassment policy. That's what a pretty big overhaul. That's and again, that is the definitions. Be more clear in the manual itself about all of the procedures that hr will go through. So that employees understand what the investigatory process looks like because I think that a kind of thing, many of the council discuss that a lot of employees play. They have no idea what's going on. They have no idea of the complaints will be heard. So I think to put that out there to be as transparent front as possible,
what schedule looks like, still going work to do theirs. But I think as far updating the manual, this is the this is a big upgrade compared to I don't know how what he's done in the past. Any questions? Yes, counselor Delaney, thank you, MR. Chair. Our recommendation. Number Well, it consideration but not recommendation. But I want to talk about the independent office of Equal Opportunity. From my understanding would allow complains from individuals outside of key enterprises. That correct? That's correct. Okay. And so that one of the initial complaint is that site here before us did never worked for the city County enterprise. And I wanted to just talk a little bit about are the scenes that we can do that would allow because we're such
a big organization. We have. We interact with keep he's the unions in vendors and all sorts of folks. Citizens that come into the city. And so it's. I think that this could be a good avenue if we promote it effectively. Inefficient report talks about it being, I guess, sort of like and are promoting. And I just wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about how the office can be used more effectively. Thank you, counselor. This process live learn a lot about the history that office. So well, it is house currently occ. It is sort of like local ios e so. Often times. And I think they for the most part, it's a it is employee or former employee or something, frankly, too, meet the goals
and the ideas of independence. Since it does the same work as ceo or the icrc we will offer free as a cost money for them to do that or anything. In the interest of having that in investigation, we say, well, maybe we shouldn't investigate this so that history back forward. I think we always like its prime, as I understand from again, history of the city in that office is there was a time not far recent past where. Gender identity and orientation are not recognized state or local laws protections. The city of Minneapolis dead. So we would take those in because we did. Authorities say you cannot discriminate on basis. I think that's what we are was really as But I think we get into problems with kind of that independence we're all trying to strike a balance between protecting our employees audience. You know, some systems internally, but also being independents. That's
kind of where. My analysis looking at, where are can be beneficial as challenging. The additional questions. Seeing none council Beeler. Thank you so much, MR. CHAIRMAN, thank you. Counselors who in for purposes of the public, if anybody wishes to speak later after our 3rd presentations, please come forward and sign-up of the sign-up sheet. And now we're going next. Hear a presentation from. Davidson. Trips. Co-founder and director of the National Women's Defense League. She is going speak with us from Upper State, New York. And we're going to pull her up here on the screen. Yes. We can hear you. Yes, Leslie, you MAY have to sound from your spot so she can hear you. Okay. Go ahead.
Thank you. Thank you. Chair of the joint bids members of the Rules Committee and working Group. My name is and it isn't rates. I'm here on behalf of the National Interest Anslee a non-partisan organization whose mission is preventing harassment and protecting survivors, research policy and advocacy. And I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all tonight about these proposed reforms. I apologize. I'm not there in person. The council's invitation and wto review. The proposed summaries of recommendations for structural procedural reforms. We approached at work through 2 lenses. First as experts and policy and process. And second as advocates for those whose courage has brought these issues into public light. Many of the proposed steps creating independent oversight,
providing multiple reporting channels and mandating regular training aligned with what we see is affected models across the country. These are strong evidence-based practices that if implemented properly could strengthen compliance accountability within the city government. Based our review and wto recommends 3 priorities to continue to be central to any reform. Required buys third-party support for reporting investigations and resolution. We appreciate it than a recommendation of the working group is to centralize the investigative authority and ultimately create independent human resources board. Investigations involving senior officials must be
handled by an entity that is independent of elected officials and city employees influence. Hiring process for third-party support should include that for any existing conflicts of interest with elected officials or senior staff. Unbiased, independent investigation prevents conflicts of interest and increases employees, confidence that cases will be handled fairly eliminating bias conflicts of interest and handling of harassment. Complaints is a foundational and non-negotiable component any effective interest for the process. Established multiple confidential reporting options and deal supports the effort to stand reporting tool and believes that the employees must have multiple confidential options to report misconduct. The current summary provides for the implementation of the single reporting system. We would
urge working group to include additional options. Best practices show that offering several channels such as online forms, confidential hotlines as an hr oversight contacts inside a direct supervision, significantly increases reporting and reduces fear of retaliation. A single reporting has can deter complaints, especially when the lusher answers in a position authority. I intake system supported by clear escalation rules entry pass to gators will help ensure that new report is los to Lee or mishandled. Ensure survivor confidentiality retaliation, protection and public transparency. The recommendation is currently under review. Do not explicitly address protections for survivors confidentiality. Retaliation, prevention or provide for the public transparency. These 3
components are not optional. They are essential. Policies that protect survivor privacy while ensuring transparency for the public are operational necessities for function, complaint process survivors and they will be believed and protected. While let see that the system works through regular anonymous reporting on Several cities now are these annual transparency report summarizing the number of complaints comes and corrective actions without disclosing personal details. This practice both bills internal and ex True Confidence Special unit uses are handled properly and fairly. Overall national incident. Sleek supports the concept working group's recommendations, but at least
the greater specificity is required to get survivors. Clear. Guidance on reporting and to ensure strong confidentiality and transparency measures that reinforced public confidence in the system. The need for strong, clear and consistent systems. Indianapolis has never been were critical. Each communication, full tours are information evenly confidence in the process or roads? Not because it intent that because the structures themselves are not yet strong enough to guarantee fairness and transparency. That is precisely why these reforms are so important. Stroke survivor and foreign policies don't just prevent misconduct. They prevent confusion, inconsistency and the perception by U.S. Reporting channels are clearly defined when survivors can access updates on cases. Every oversight is independent and data is made public confidence
follows actually. Trust is now restored by statements is restored by seen a system that works the way it should. These are the markers and how the government. Each of these reforms help shift the city's culture towards prevention. There is and public integrity, not just for survivors, for every employee and resident who expects the leadership from their government. The survivors who came forward did so believing their experiences could lead to lasting change. That the lesion this council now to turn lessons policy and inspiration. And have initially Anslee. I thank you for the opportunity to continue to be part of this
process. We remain ready to assist as Indianapolis Colts, the systems and standards that will make safety and accountability. Kermit features a public service. This proves the Thank you so much. I asked this question earlier and you MAY have some recommendations in this space because you talked about advocacy for employees. Union employees have greeters. They have somebody that can advocate for them even against the union in that space. When the of the Enterprise. Generally hr protects the enterprise. How could we create? Agreed her style position protection? How can ensure that confidence back into our employees that they have the advocate for them. That is number one. Responsibility is them and not
the enterprise. I appreciated that question so much. And I appreciate the time and effort that this council is considering between. True confidentiality and holding that sacred and moving into the idea of a 3rd party entering this space. From our perspective. Third-party components, having them be fully separate from the inner workings of the government and the political aspect of. Really what what happens when government is is essential. If you can to having reverse style system, public advocate of some kind on. If you will, definitely see a lot other cities is that they will have an ombudsman. Position created. We really see that as as an essential component of
the s It means that eventually, as was earlier that the larger goal is to get to an independent 3rd party as you work out the system and how that could operate effectively. We would suggest creating buses. Position to be intake for complaints and providing that position the authority to investigate and to move forward separately from any of the political interference. Just around is that? All right. Cause live art. Thank you, MR. Chair and thank you for the presentation and what I want to. Continue. The conversation is that the concept and the working group of defend it board came frequently. We talked about it a multiple occasions and we kept coming back to what it sounds Even counselor Buehler was even coming back to is
that as soon as these documents leave hr that become public record. And I'm curious from a prisoner recommendations on. How we workers other examples in the past where you MAY have worked with where? We're able to keep those records private and still have a 3rd party. Thank you. I'd be interested to know if there's an option too. Have those reports go directly to a 3rd party and not interact with. The internal hr system. I believe I said I had shared several options that other cities have been utilizing his they face similar problems. I think the if they if employees coming forward with a complaint, they are assuming that whoever it's going to get
bottom is going investigate is going to get the information they share. Part of the reason why having in on option is so important. Being able to send those directly to the investigative That is a 3rd party that would be our recommendations. Have his complaints go straight to them so that you bypass the internal system. The additional questions Council McCormick, thank you, MR. Thank you as tips for that presentation. I kind of want to ask about bus. Versus like this centralized intake system that you talk about. Was the ombudsman. Is that someone who is that is what we say. Farmed. Our third-party were just talking about h r versus another entity within the city, correct? We're not talking about an independent
law firm or another company doing something. Is that correct? That? Yes, that would be your recommendation. There are examples of cities government entities that have designated a specific law firm has their socialist hub. I would say it. That's better nothing. Having a department or a cabinet level, whatever it might look like for that works for the city. That the soul, purpose of that department is to investigate these kinds of complaints that that is our recommendation. And so and so we're looking at this isn't right that an external outside of the party, somebody this is just someone who is independent of the the mayor, the executive level. We we are supportive of the first 2 recommendations that you have put forth understanding
that was that you're still grappling with the confidentiality and how you make those work. We are supportive of the first 2 recommendations. Any additional questions. I have This is trib's. We talk about not making reporting mandatory. We're not having a time limit on it and not to forced to complain it to do something. Not comfortable doing. I'm sure you can appreciate that. That might have some legal ramifications for the city as an employer. Particularly if a supervisor knows of such a situation and does not raise it because the complainant fields or chooses not to raise it. That could expose the city to possible
legal jeopardy. So how do you use just who or what are ways to handle that, particularly if the this is something the report comes up, 3, 5, 10 years later with that person MAY not even long longer be an employee of the enterprise. There's a lot of legal issues there that I think difficult to navigate. Yeah, we I agree. It will say the best practice of moving away from the idea of mandatory reporting for these circumstances has really come out since then. The Me too movement of the said she 18. We saw a lot of government entities move Tories, mandatory reporting and it did not serve. Entity or the
survivors. Well, so we are still grappling with how best to manage those 2 pieces as a movement. I would say it's the reason we put so much emphasis on the transparency. I appreciate the question earlier about the regular reporting and how you would provide idea for the public on what was really happening inside of these cases. There certainly are options to put forward that. From on the stand point on every 3 or 6 months where managers can say they've received reports, even though the complaint does not want to move forward. Where you can just read a city can get a better understanding of the scope of the problem without those individual cases moving forward. Obviously those situations do not allow the city opportunity to remove someone who could be
dangerous. And that's that is a balancing act that I wish I had better answer for. Unfortunately. Think that's the best thing you can do is to put forward policies is still the greatest amount of trust. So that survivors feel more comfortable providing the full information and telling their full stories. Any additional questions. Council Nielsen. Thank you, thank you. Mistress for all year and support of our efforts here, not just tonight, but in the past is why we really appreciate it. As we talk about this process, it was kind of brought up a little bit we're hearing from Councilor Beeler. As we look to explore with the appeals process, looks like what? Do you have? Any good examples in
our you know, as continue to review best practices and what's working well, what's not working? Well and other municipalities, do you have any examples or example cities or government entities that have done this? Well? So I will say the the part that we would hope is that you don't need an appeals process because the initial complaint is. Is investigated fully that that if there is any kind of punishments are outcome feels fair and just it policies are being updated to ensure that whatever slip through the cracks is eliminates that a sieve. The government's ability. The appeals process we think is a vital component 4 of the complainants. And for those who are shoes. Pure, for fairness, we think it is also
important that it be separate from the St the to the original investigation and more than happy to polls and examples. Ensure that wave with a working group that rules Committee. I don't think anyone has gotten it perfect yet. Don't think there's any any government study that is he's unsure that going through this process. Results in the kind of fairness and makes everybody. Or just in time. But we are making strides and providing the opportunity to learn more about and peel and see somebody else come in with another perspective has never backfired so far. You're it. Yeah. Just following Thank you for that. So is it your
recommendation that? That anyone at any point, right, that a complaint or accusation could go through the appeals process. Right. And I think sometimes whereas were grappling with, you know, that building out the policy and the procedures for a robust anonymous reporting system. Right? There's obviously a chance, right? Doing with lawn while large numbers that there will be some that are just either errors or whatever it be. So I think as as mask for you and your continued to that analysis, just how well that is, how well that is spelled out. So that obviously nothing slips through the cracks and that every determination is is. Given if the proper notification of an appeal. I think that that's as I'm kind of thinking about can very
supportive of the non U.S. Reporting tool. We have a situation where there's a number and a place how we are able to tease that out in unsure both due process and good communication with those who remained those those complaints. So I would appreciate that. So thank you. We will happily provide a detail as the as we can as we can make it. I will say the other components that you the council are even discussing. You know, keeping survivors to date about their how their cases are moving forward, making sure that they have a solid contact. They can go back to the questions. Those are all pieces that added to the feeling of trust and support where standard appeals process becomes part of it and
it doesn't need an additional set of circumstances surrounding it. They're all part of the same best practices. Additional questions. Owners, Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN and thank mistress for coming before us today. One of our recommendations and number 5, the was creating universal harassment, free work environment and something similar here the written. A document that you gave to Outside of entities that we contract with fall under direct supervision of the enterprise. How can we? And he kind of reach over organizations that we don't necessarily have a contractual
relationship with. I to hear your ideas or thoughts on that. So what the there are a number of great things that appreciate you all are considering. Adding 3rd parties is how is Louis call them? What is to ensure that any vendor that contracted to say has their own harassment policy for their employees. And making sure that anybody who is coming in and operating in inside government property understands that if something happens, they also had access to some of these reporting systems hotline, the state fully program. Allowing them access. Those is those institutions as well, depending on there on their position and how they're interacting with the governments are the places that we would say are the best places to start. So really
making sure that. That the city is working with organizations and vendors that operate within the same kind of value system on this issue that you are all putting forward is the best place. That they Any additional questions seeing none. This is trips. Thank you so very much. Appreciate your time. Hopefully we'll be able to continue working with you as we move forward. Thank you. Next, in a final presentation last but not least. Traci Justice from Society for Human Resource Management. We'll give a presentation. We need a five-minute break. Please take it. All right. We're going to started here. If this just if you introduce yourself the floor is yours. All right. Good evening, CHAIRMAN And committee. Thank you for having me here. My name is Tracy Justice. I am director of government affairs for in the Sharm. And I want to make
sure that I provide this clear loud and clear that I'm providing hr perspectives for educational purposes. So everything that I talk about today is recommended to speak with your legal counsel to confirm if these perspectives make sense for your organization. I'm sorry tell you PRESIDENT Nixon. Our mission with Andy, sure of any serves in advance is the human resource profession in central Indiana by developing strategic business partners, their comprehensive programming and collaborative development opportunities. And our vision is transforming human resources throughout central Indiana as a premier provider of human capital management resources. Next slide. So regards to the summary of recommendation for structural and procedural reforms in Indianapolis,
Marion County, City County, Human Resources, investigations. It sure is neutral on the recommendations. We respect of the taxpayers decisions as well as the council to make the decisions that however, the question here is to consider for everyone to consider as you're for me, your policies is what structural safeguards are necessary to ensure a chart independence from political influence. And we've I've heard you all talk about that today. But that is a consideration for the council. Charged you give to your hr to park it. It's it's really but and if I'm set, so we're going to talk about the hr charts role in organization employee and Labor relations strategy. So when you look at the role of hr, it was from tactical
Stu to strategic partnership. Chart isn't just about the transactions, about payroll benefits, hiring the sizes that insurance stands for the Society for Human Resources Management. Just a case. Okay. I apologize for that. So sure that the sizes that hr must elevate its role to stick to a strategic one. That means a line. People practices with organizational strategy, contributing to the business or local government outcomes. So I also provided here on the power point slides to different of different topics that you can look at. If you go to Google because of course I was in and give you a full a full, you know, 100 page report, but giving you a place where you can start of to do a little bit of research where
these your hr department to do that next. Slide driving change and transformation. A chart is central in leading organizational change because people are the asset. So check and change involves capabilities which are skills, culture systems and behaviors. And so hr is part of of driving that change and transformation. Next slide linking workforce and business strategy. Hr must ensure the workforce is aligned with the organization's strategic goals, not just fulfilling current rules but enabling future direction. And then also hr is responsible for building culture capability and employee experience. Or, however, I should say that charges role is is important
in shaping that work for a work environment. Fostering culture, enabling learning and development and creating the conditions for employees to thrive. So we think about a chart. This is what a charge role in an organization Now with local government. There is a bit of a nuanced because public chart does differ from private private Sector h r. So public. And so its ultimate duty is to balance compassion with compliance. Compliance is the floor writes with responsibility, making sure that within the organization understand their different right, because every role has has have rights and that trust with transparency. We'll talk about the constitutional protection. So when a chart in
public sector is thinking about considering that strategy. Unlike private sector, hr public sector hr operate under constitutional law because government employers are state actors because local government, our arms is in our of the of the state of the state government. This means every employment policy must respect the following. Protected rights for all U.S. Employees. First Amendment Freedom of Association and expression. So understanding that public employees retain the right to form personal romantic and social relationships and to speak freely outside the scope of their official duties. Another constitutional right, the 14th Amendment prime right to privacy into process. Government cannot intrude arbitrarily into employees.
Private lives, north discipline them without fair process and a legitimate governmental interest and then the equal protection clause policies must be applied equally. So must be applied uniformly for everyone within the organization. So you MAY regulate the conduct that affects operations, but you can't police their private life without demonstrable connection to the work itself. So public sector, hr professionals as going through their process is the things that that they're responsible of considering is evaluating whether personnel action could implicate constitutional rights. Provide process. Safeguards notice an opportunity to respond before imposing discipline ensure policies like nonfat news station, social media rules or
off-duty conduct coat our narrowly tailored to legitimate business or governmental interest. And then document those decisions served as an operational necessity. So with the policies being created, you're not simply saying we don't want, you know, you know, you can't make a blanket statement. You have to make sure that if if if it's something like not fragmentation, social media rules are often conduct you're giving a reason why year why you don't want you know, the employees to do certain act. Gauges certain activities. Now key key, sure guidance highlights for building a respectful and inclusive work policy. Number one, things policy architecture sure does offer a sample of a policy on their Web site. When you're a
member of sure you have access to 2 policies, all the template for hr professionals. Course, you tweak it to the organization's needs. It has the size. That employee handbook should be reviewed and updated to reflect harassment, anti-discrimination laws and the training requirements and they suggest policies clearly defined harassment. Define what discrimination looks like. Defy retaliation and make sure you're protecting individuals who report good faith. So the policy as as as your employees are really the policies, they should feel that they're going to be protected through that handbook. You want to make sure that it's clearly stipulated what's allowed and what's not allowed and then make sure that there's
whistleblower protections. For the complaint investigation processes within the policy. They outline sure outlines of the best practices for how to strengthen of complaint procedures. So you want to make sure that there's multiple channels for reporting that there's confidentiality avoidance of retaliation so that employees trust the system. And they also share also covers investigation. How investigation should be handled the helpful process code of conduct enforcement and not discriminate up. Just not discriminatory discipline as key elements of year your policy. So you want to make sure that that's clearly understood what the mission Investigation is going to look like with the Code of conduct enforcement is what the discipline is. You want to ensure that the policy is preventing hostile
environments and bullying? Stresses that prevention goes beyond what? What's legally required, right? So compliance of you want to make sure that use that hr has the ability to not just say what's not allow, but what the culture, you trade a culture that. That prevents hostile environment and prevents a bullying. They advise organizations explicitly it staff of the employers policy against discrimination, harassment and bullying and that the requirement to act if they experience or witness it. So that has to be something that's within your policy, making sure everyone knows that is their responsibility everybody has a role and responsibility to making sure that environment workplace stays universal universally free of harassment is that everybody has a role. Some
policies I have seen have included. If you don't report or if you don't act on what you see or if you experience it, that that can actually lead to disciplinary actions leading up to grounds for termination because organization has the responsibility to ensure that they're doing everything that they can. But of course, the organization has to know what's happening. What's going on? The training and communication sure underscores need for ongoing training. It can't be just a one and done. It has to be tailored to different roles. Understand the dynamics of your organization and making sure that you consider all the different rules and that you You apply the policy to those different roles. So people under so your employees understand it from a full perspective, they recommend
clear accessible communication of policy, rice and procedures and that leadership visibly supports it. So they have to see examples of leadership up showing that they respect the policies as well. Alignment with strategy culture. Sure. Implicitly and explicitly links that anti harassment and non-discrimination efforts are part of risk management. They're part of employee engagement is part of creating an inclusive culture. It also includes leadership, accountability. So what I thought would be interesting for us really look at what a public employment law case that actually went through process that it be easy that to dissect this case. It's a healthy Kansas from the 10th Circuit Court in 2011. So the facts of this case is that of the plane, if Christie held, worked as an administrative assistant for 2 Kansas
District Court judges, one of the judges allegedly one of the judges allegedly sexually harassed her overt nearly 10 years, including not consensual, touching, fond fondling forced kissing The state of Kansas for harassment under title 7. The legal issues and holding that case depended on 2 principal issues. First the court had to look at was the it was a person, an employee because that matters whether that how it's processed under title 7 and then of the second a principal issue was the employer liability for so supervisor harassment, whether the state could be held vicariously liable for the judges, harassment under the
Supervisory harassment standard or whether the affirmative defense under the farther for city of Boca Burlington Industries, elders apply. I'll talk about that and here in a little bit. So they're holding. Is that up? So what ended up happening in that case is that the 10th Circuit did not decide on whether the employee was Fulfill the definition of what an employee is. However, the second issue was found and of the state was state successfully invoked the fire Elmhurst, affirmative defense. So the state was not found liable for the judges. Harassment and the court, summary judgment for the state. So what are the legal questions before the court when you think about this case was held even covered by Title
vi title 7. So so being able to define what employees, what employee would an employee is for the city council is important within your handbook as well. The finding what those rules are the state was able to argue that the judge was a personal staff me that that that's a a election. That the plaintiff was a a personal staff and therefore did not was not protected. However, that wasn't really fully worked through because number 2 was found. The question turns on employer liability under title 7 Faragher l Earth Framework. Now Elf Earth Framework. If you if you're not familiar with that is the underpinning of the harassment policies here are modernized harassment policies. Anyone familiar with with the the frame or but that those 2 cases, ok? So then just share
real quick. What with those case studies what it found. So for the for city of Boca Raton, but of the Supreme Court ruled in 1998 the facts this case was that lifeguard, Beth Arbor allege her supervisors created a sexually hostile environment through pervasive comments and touching the city had a harassment policy but didn't effectively disseminated or enforce it within her department. So really was at the Supreme Court found the city liable because it failed to exercise reasonable care. So this supervisor are trained and the employees that know how to report it. So therefore, the Supreme Court found the liable. So the key point here is that just if you have a policy, you want to make sure you're doing more than just that floor. For the Burlington Industry. First Ehlers. The facts there was
that Kimberly Eller allege her supervisor made repeated advances and implied that her job de Klerk depended on compliance. However, she was never demoted or fired ruling. The court held that since there was no tangible employment action and tangible employment action is whether you lose your job, you're fired something that is tangible that can really impact the person. However, she was. She was never demoted or 5. So fate. The court held that says there is no tangible employment action. The company could assert an affirmative defense. It could show bulls proms of the framework. So the affirmative defense. Organization can can do Protect itself. Going back to the Ferger Elworth framework. Yes, okay. We're on that southeast. 2 cases set out rules for when employers automatically liable. And this is helpful to understand as
you're putting your policies together. So for harassment and when it can defend itself. So if a harassment result in a tangible job action like fire into motion, a pay cut, the employers automatically liable. If the harassment does not result in a tangible job action, then the employer can avoid liability. If it proves it took reasonable care to prevent and correct task harassment. And number 2, the employee unreasonably failed to report. We're used those procedures. So when we look at what the court decided in, the Kansas, the 10th circuit sided with the state of Kansas in this particular situation. Not because the harassment didn't happen, but because the state
met the fair Darrelle Earth defense requirements. So number one, the state have policies and procedures in place to report harassment. There was a anti-harassment policy and they're also mechanisms to complain or report misconduct. Number 2 health did not report the harassment for many years. She under the conduct for almost a decade before taking action. The court found her to her delay to be unreasonable, which satisfied the second part of the defense. So therefore, the state was not found liable. Why is this case significant when you're thinking about putting your teacher of year up, anti harassment, non-discrimination policy together? Because even one and harassment is egregious and employer, including a stay or public entity. And it's skate liability. If they can prove
both parts of that fired or l hurt defense, they acted reasonably to prevent correct to prevent and correct harassment had a policy training staff and the employee failed to use those procedures. What am I emphasize here? This emphasizes that employees should have strong reporting policies and regular training to meet their legal obligation. What does this also mean? This also means that if a public employee sexually harass us, someone, the individual, not the government, not the employer can be personally liable in tort, not under title 7 but under tort law because they harassment is outside their job duties. So we talk about affirmative defense. What is affirmative defense? City,
public entity must be able to have prevention and correction in place. That means clear accessible anti-harassment policy, multiple avenues for complaint, not just the chain of command prof well documented investigation. Well documented investigation and that consistent corrective action. And then number 2, the employees unreasonable failure to report. So making like is if the employee failed to use the reporting system despite having a reasonable opportunity, that's how an employer safeguard itself and no retaliation or intimidation was is happening to discourage reporting. But of course, that has to be part of the policy. No retaliation or intimidation. So the takeaways
for the practices that for employers have clear well communicated harassment reporting procedures, train all levels of staff, including managers and supervisors on what to do. Investigate all complaints properly and thoroughly keep records showing that employee were informed of their rights and how to report misconduct. And then for employees know the policy. Read your employer's anti-harassment procedures. Ask questions if you need to report or document incident early. Even if you fear retaliation. And that's why retaliation and whistleblower protections need to be emphasized. So that that can happen. And then, of course, support If you need to go
outside of the chain of command for any reason, do what needs to for the employees. Thank you so much for reaching out to in the sure and and rate. If you have any questions. Thank you so much. Is just as very informative, any questions from the panel there. Yes, Council Brown. Okay. That was a lot and I am obviously not an hr person or a lawyer. So for clarification, I'm going to use ai Self as an example here. So because I don't technically have the ability to hire fire anybody by myself. And I and not I hired appointee higher person elected. If I. News media, I swear to GOD, I've not done this. Please do uses that. If Grab employees or say terrible things to counsel employees. They have no legal repercussions against the city. It would just be against
me. But harassment itself isn't Find just saying bad things to them. They have no legal repercussions against the city and there's no legal protections against the saying bad things about somebody in a criminal court. What kind of protections do they have? They do have protections under the anti harassment policy, but I can't be removed or fired. I have to finished. My term resign. That's why I'm like so as elected officials, we could do what we want. If we don't directly appoint higher fire, threatened. And there's nothing that can be done until we actually physically touch somebody which could become assault. I'm just trying to crest because there's like 200 elected officials in this
county and basically by this. And this is not Obviously, you're not the Supreme Court here that made these decisions, but basically by this, as long as we never higher higher fire actually physically touch somebody, we're can you what we want. No, no, no, I mean, this is the way that this is being described as that this an appointed position. They never threatened to fire her. But she was sexually harassed and assaulted. Says he tried to kiss, heard all these guns for 10 years and there's no legal ramifications. I mean, there could be political ramifications, but there's no legal ramifications. So it are you referring to the help? First key? Okay. So in that situation. She wasn't protected because she didn't
report She didn't report it. She waited 10 years later. course, she said going on for 10 years said went on for 10 years that she never point they are reported. The first instance, then they're out a lot. It's everybody's responsibility to report. So if that happens to you within the workplace, you have to report it. You have to report it. Probably you can't wait 10 years. It took me 18 years to be able to tell my family that I was sexually assaulted in college. And the only reason I did is because it was forced out of me here. So and I get that it that their topics. But what talking about, employment law and that looks like that everybody like employees have that responsibility. They must report it. They must disclose it has to happen because then
the organization doesn't doesn't have an opportunity to do its responsibility. So you know what? So when you think about that, you know, when you think about Trump MAY including trauma, informed trauma, informed therapists or trauma informed investigations, maybe having some sort of saying to help with that. However, it is. It is in play a lot. You have to report it. You have to disclose it and because she did not for 10 years, then, you know, maybe she can look under constitutional laws. And see whether the state well, a play there. But it's it's just it's that this is like want to make sure this is not this just makes me in general have less faith in hr systems at
all. Because if I have to report, actually when it happens. That happened. That's the world we live in. That's it takes time for somebody to process trauma process. What's going on or even realize sometimes that they're being taken advantage of that in that way. This like was not you. This is just this is now elevated. My concern, even higher because it just seems like there's very few if any protections for city employees from any elected official. And then let alone. If we don't threaten the higher fire Sunday, demote them not vote to appoint them than theirs. It just. Especially like that this is like is that this is not you. This is more concerning just hr lawn general being. Super. Poli. To get out of actually protecting people. Just to be char's role is to to protect the employees
as well is is is making sure that everyone within the organization understand their rights and responsibilities. So. If you're having trainings consistently. Giving people an opportunity to act out and scenario so they know or have an idea of or maybe talk about different what it looks like. Then it gives, you know, everyone, an opportunity to speak out. I mean, to share. Because, you know, hr can't do their job. You know, the organization can't do its job if they don't know about it. So it has to be disclosed. But but I don't feel like I'm understand your question clearly. So so, you know, I know there's a lot of layers to being government right there. We have appointed employees. We have 10 years and we have place. We have all
sorts of different levels, employees and then we're all different because we're elected rights awareness to take us out as the state house issues. So there's a whole level in there. I'm just concerned. Like is what is what is their official a statute of limitations. So I got assault. And on Friday after reported on Monday, do I have month to have a year to? I have? Is there what's the reasonable like there's so much to this? That seems so much to put the onus on on somebody who's been. Victimized. And then even do it in a reasonable amount of time on what's the reason amount of time if the person is employed is? You know, the enterprise is there like that. It's just creating more. This is creating more. Questions for me. And I know I'm not for
me when the correctly, I'm just I'm a little more for gap now, to be honest with on this in the black and the lack of protections, it feels like our employees have it. They don't feel they're not instantly there to report. So this like this and this and this is this is just learning hr law, which I this. I've never been in that position. So I want I want to thank you for answering these questions. And now I'm just kind of thinking out loud from other councilors, if you can pull that into a question because I'm just frankly can shock because I want to make it clear that age hr does protect the employees what I'm saying here is that, you know, when you look at the employees, the employer and then the of the survivor and then the complaint and then the respondent. Hr has a responsibility to ensure that they get lawyer is a
compliant. Hr has a responsibility to make sure that the employees understand their rights. And if that's happening. I guess in my opinion, if that's happening, then the hra the new ploy e should start to feel comfortable if. If policies if that the policy if the policies being updated in share annually and if there's training die annually. Then the employee will realize their protections because employee protected, but it? But when it goes to the Supreme Court law, the Supreme Court is the one that came up with that defense yet and said that, you know, that's how you work through it. So if the employers not found liable and now the individual becomes liable. So so it doesn't mean that the victim doesn't have. Other things that they can do. But it just means that the employers no longer liable because they did what they
needed to do. Now they can for that in another Okay. Hopefully that helps. Is there a way to reconcile this point of a duty to report to what? We would just learn from the prior presentation when they said you should not force anybody to report that the mandatory reporting. Puts the complainant in an odd situation that is or is there a way to reconcile those 2 points? Honestly, I I don't know if there is, you know. Because there is a responsibility. Everybody has a responsibility to ensure that workplace is. Its harassment free. And in order to do that, you know, the person who sees it or experience, it has to disclose it like a let's use the anonymous reporting and then
you're able to create programming or trainings around However, how will organization do what they need to do if they don't know something is happening. So it does become checkey and then you know really the what I presented today was just to give you an idea of how the courts process it right? You know, so. You understand those different nuances when you're putting that policy together. Yeah, it it's mandatory to report here. But I see where she's coming from And all right. Councilor Perkins. I think it was German. Just tried to expand a little bit on the discussion that's happening I think our desires to have a workplace where? No form of rest of this relation happens. I think to what my
colleagues question. It underscores for me the need off offering multiple ways reported. Not only multiple ways of reported but creating a culture climate. That is acceptable. And if something happens since we cannot always legislate human behavior. The culture and climate is created where you have multiple ways in which you can have your concerns reported. So I from my colleagues of a colleague, I think the issue then becomes how do we work perspective as the council to ensure that we offered multiple ways for reporting to happen within the Enterprise. My question is, I appreciate your. Really not
for us. The role of a child within organization, especially in the public sector. That it's more than just compliance. It is billed in a culture. I wonder what your position the is. If you we full the hr out off the enterprise and make it into independent organization, independent entity. What then becomes off the enterprise in helping to build that culture within the organization. I can't really speak to, you know, whether or you know. Charges moved into a separate agency, cyclists tax dollars. And, you know, you know that. But it what is the charge that you all have given to hr? What's a charge role? You know, what have they been empowered to do? What
authority do they have? If they haven't been giving in, if they haven't been given the power or authority or charge to be able to do the full job of what hr, you know, requires. Then it's hard for hr to do their job. You know, I know that currently hr rolls up to the comptroller. It's good if that's, you know, so. I think it goes back to what charges you get into your hr department. What authority have you given them? What can they do? So that it can be? Clearly understand what their role is so that they can act within the charges been given to them. Does that answer your question? It does. It does week's to the broad. But I think the big issue in which were wrestling with and we've been wrestling with his now
forward feels like forever for the last year and a half, which is there is a broader culture issue within the organization and we have gotten to the point after doing this now for a year, we're still wrestling with trust within the organization. And how do address the culture issues that internal to address internal are we please know we need to be its only address to fix some internal issues. So I think really, but the question is not necessarily what's the charge to hr because of the problem. A problem that we've discovered is that whatever the charge was. That there was a point where reported stop.
When whatever influence. The report it because we're in the situation we're in right now. And so whatever this odd was clearly something work. Because we've had to address over the last year. So we're coming in now to say, okay, how do we address this to really accept trust within the enterprise to make sure that our employees feel like it's a comfortable place for them to work and that we can have to move the city forward. That's a challenge. What we have right now and the question is how do we do that? Addressing the 7 points that that recommendation from the working group or something else. Was that a rhetorical question? I mean, just want to make sure I you know, I answer she help us out a bit of his agenda help Thank you, all that statement culture is culture is a hard thing for at every organization really to
be totally honest I In my opinion, it starts internally. Because sometimes employees within the organizational trust people coming from the outside either. It's really repairing its really working with your workforce and trying to find out, you know, the it looks like there's some studies that are being done from from those studies. That's a great first place to start there and then kind of see what comes out of those studies and and have conversations with with your employees because this is a public sector of the because this is the public MAY be thinking of the strategy of including the employees. A lot more in in some of the, you know, creating town halls for employees. I am. But honestly,
culture such a tough For private, for for private entities as well. And what sure has a what push of pushing for improving culture is, you know, learning how to talk to each other, learning how to have conversations learning how to, you know. How to be human again with each other. That's you know, Sorry. There's not an easy answer. I apologize for that. That's it's a tough fun. Thank counselor comic. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, I sort of wanted to jump on tech to this. I think maybe my last 2 colleagues. As an equal part of government. As a council. We are trying to see what we can do and won practiced law and policy to ensure that hr who reports to the executive branch through the executive branch is doing what it needs
to. And so we don't charge hr with anything Hartman didn't like the administration. Does the mayor. That's right. So that executive branch does and we're trying to figure out how we can make a policy to ensure that things go sort of the way that. We feel the need to get saying that right? Colleagues not or no, yes. So I think that's maybe where the question is, where that where we're like articulation of what we're trying to ask us. How are how can we do that from our standpoint, right? Because it's a little different. Think. We don't charge her with anything. And maybe there's not answer that right now. Maybe that's a mistake about talks and colleagues get back to us because they think that's maybe where are where we are because we don't oversee a juror. Like that MAY be do have I sort of I guess a second statement question to the people around So mandatory reporter Ray. And that's what you're suggesting that we've
heard mistress and others have said we shouldn't. I work in higher education, but I don't mind mandatory reporters. Just talking about title 7. So goes at least a timeline how many we have. But being a mandatory reporter and there's positive and negative how we can do that in is the inspector general that sort of person we go to reporter can be. The advocate for the employee who's reporting something versus. Being there to cover for the enterprise or be more air for the enterprise to knowing like knowing any comments on those 2 sort of things, I guess. The first thank you all. Have the charge over h r. Okay. That's that. That's tricky. So, you definitely want reach out to my colleagues and see what. No from that. And then the second question about mandatory reporting in. Asked that
question, a gun. So I guess my thought is we have some pros and cons on mandatory reporting. And I think part of it is the confidentiality. And that not being ready for it to come out. We talked about the timeline. Being amended. Thank you. You're suggesting mandate reporter. I know I am under top title 9 and the difference and why. I guess if you can highlight again winding. Need to be like why you see just having the mandatory reporting. I work in hair education, isis students like I can help you with a problem. I don't know exists. I wish it were my radar. I were a probably wouldn't be here at the on some beach or traveling all the time. Right? So because I the lottery. But so that thing where we need to have information. Attorneys have the information to make the best decisions and to support the employees in that
employer. But then have keep the confidentiality message like that. Privacy of the reporters as well. Maybe it goes back to the multiple reporting avenues. Because at some point. Something could come out right as You know, as the investigation is getting de Pere. Some of the things that you can think about or what are some of those resources that you probably could have in place for that, you know, for the victim who MAY be going through this and want some more help. I know a counselor up earlier was talking about the a p providing services like that. However, you know, going back to, you know, a charge responsibility in making sure that the organization is
compliant and that they're able to deal with issues within the organization. It mandatory reporting is just necessary. It's part of that it's just part of that. You know, there's no way to really get around that because you can never guarantee full confidentiality. Of course, you responsibility is to make sure that they maintain that as much as they possibly can. But eventually that's going eventually it can come out some sort of way. That's where the emphasis really is on making sure people come in onboarding. They're doing that. You know, part of the onboarding is the training for anti harassment, anti harassment, non-discrimination policy, making sure that they know what that is and then continuing that continuing, making sure that they understand how that works. You know it. And that's part of the stipulation of working
with the organization that, you know, they have to understand the what the employer is supposed to do and if they're going to take that job, that they realize they have a responsibility as well. They have to report. There's really, you know. Just back to that culture, right? Yeah, it really is building that culture because compliance is just the floor. But you've got to build so much more than that. It's just a compliance policy. Compliance culture. Will that? Yeah, people are going to be scared They're not going to report. They're not going to feel like they're supported. But if there's ongoing training, there's the different ways that you can report it you know, it employs
understand all of their rights obligation leaders, people in high positions understand their responsibility and understand that they are considered agents of the organization and understand that if the employers doing all that they can do, but then you have, you know, that some leaders that are going grow, then they understand that they can be personally liable. So just making sure that everybody knows what their rights are making sure that training is happening. Communication yeah, because you know the employer has a responsibility to make sure that the workplace is harassment, free. And in order to do that reporting disclosure, has to happen. And that's what's important to have these traits. Everybody knows understands. All right.
Thank you. Council vain. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, thank you for the presentation this evening. When we talk about this Helms case and going through your house for help title 7 protects employees but not personal employees. Of elected officials. What the fines. Personal plea of an elected official personal staff. In that particular case. That's, you know, with for Kansas, that's their law. You know, so I'm not sure about Kansas. Kansas law state laws. However, you would look at Indiana state laws and say, well, you know, what is Indiana State say about employees with who's considered employee and who's not considered an employee? And then make sure that those roles are defined in the employee handbook. But that that would be case that the
state law that decided that. So it seems like in this Holmes was. Suing for damages. And I have to assume she was what's going on here. For damages she was suing under title 7. Okay. So it seems so. Does that case affects Indiana. It's it's case law that you can look at to say, ok, what questions that we have for Indiana that happening in Kansas. But what can we look at here in the state of Indiana? What are some things that we need to consider here? So I didn't I intentionally didn't pull Indiana state law because it, you know, I didn't want to get too close you know, to what happened. You know, I didn't want you know, get into that. But I I I-10 Shalit chose the case love that looked at the different nuances of. Some of the things that hr will probably look at when you're putting a policy because we
just don't take a policy and just create the Ok, here it is. We look at the policy look at different case laws that could impact what could happen in your place. And you start thinking strategically say, ok, maybe we should come up with a training program that talks about these different things. I didn't too deep into Kansas State law really understand a person I get. Was a criticism. It's more just. I kind of feel like sometimes we're comparing apples and oranges where or a municipal. Local government and we're trying to craft what our city level policy will be on hr, at least. Try to beef about more than what it is now. Added additional protections. So I think that's kind of what I'm struggling with. Here is. You know, I kind of the same Vice PRESIDENT Brown where it seems
like that there's maybe no protections when obviously that cannot be the case. Like practically speaking, that cannot be the case. But what are protections if we pass protections here? Is that contrary to what? Ruled I would think it would be. But I feel like we're you know, there's so many. So much is being said right now. It's hard to rationalize and come up with what a coherent hr policy could be. Adequately protects. City employee is I know trying to avoid particular cases here. At the end of the day, when everything goes up to the 25th floor and goes up to the mayor's office. And there's a track record. There were a car has made recommendations in
the past. Somehow the news media gets a hold of that. When council doesn't get a hold of it. And hr recommendations are not followed. And the past, I think that's where we're trying to rationalize and figure out in our head. How do we create that independent? Accountability. That is void of the political. Process. And I don't even know if there's a question I'm just sitting here trying to rationalize all and have it make sense in my brain. That we have to have protections for employees would have to have the independent accountability. Now Jack here for a minute. And MAY I ask Council beeler to step forward again? Just ask some simple questions not to ask for a legal opinion in the public forum, but just to see if the the question has been raises, does this Helms case apply in Indiana and the
nuance of law? Is this a 10th circuit? We're in the 7th circuit so it doesn't automatically apply. But the question is, what is the 7th circuit holding on that issue? I for homes help. Our helps with Helms has the 10th Circuit. I have a call here, the 7th Circuit. But the general principles is as you described are correcting me. As of today, we can't fly his startled reported so report has to be made and there are. Time Frazier that it wasn't within which to them or civil liability. Let's start with criminal as a whole different ball game that yeah, there there. Report has to be made to initiate a complaint and so a liability. Is there a statute of limitations Indiana for claims? It's 2 years. Yes, from a currents or knowledge of. From occurrence. In the you know, and this is maybe a
question posed to both of you. Bigger public employer. It is different. Obviously. And our employees not only have rights as a complainant, but also as an accused. You have enhanced rights as well because your employer's, a state actor. As a criminal defendant as Miranda rights. And I know just enough about employment law to get in trouble here. So correct me if I'm wrong, that does And accused person also have. Miranda like rights. When they're accused by the employer because as a state action and you could fire discipline me. So that's a state action against me personally. And therefore, I have enhanced rights like Miranda were. I can question your evidence. I want representation. You can't force me on the spot to do something. Does that come into play and our discussion
tonight. It doesn't want careful because they're very different rights like the Miranda rights, the of the criminal side of is because individuals liberty is at stake for to do jail time. Things like that. So they're different higher protections when individuals, liberty could be taken away from her them. But yes, I mean, there there is the interest in protecting, especially during the course of the investigation. All parties involved, of course, going to the game. What if planes made? What we believing the complaint is that we asked them to make sure they feel safe for the environment was being investigated because the accused does have a right for a thorough investigation to see what's happened here. That
includes and really that what I would say impacts mostly it for practical assistance not necessarily a legal, a legal perspective. Is a lot of this is critical on witnesses who are the workplace who see these things. If they think that these are going to taking drug out and they want to be any of the witnesses, all people should be in on this as well. So we have a really, really have an interest protecting them. Is that it's really our best evidence of how we can figure out what has occurred. The park place. So that's where all is that he gets into the yes, the he of course, has a right for us internally figure out what's happened. We had to determine if a violation has occurred. Therefore, it is so light
discipline appropriate. So that is the that will hire doctrine applied to a public employee. Yes. I mean, every play at the city is that will employ. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Cause a heart. You had your hand up. I didn't survey was alluding to it at the end of his comment questions I to summarize it in other ways that. Just asking recommendations even printed recommendation that you mentioned. You have a larger handbook or recommendations guide that you can bring with them. It's okay. To direct us to look at situations where hr is making recommendations to leadership. Pollution is not taking those recommendations. Women. Ultimately the truth comes out that. There was wrongdoing to the individual.
Thanks. That's the part that I still seeing that gap here is that in cases that we've had with that being the specifics that were reported to the highest level and they were just disregarded. And that's the policy component that. We don't have an answer for. Are you all part the trainings anti? Ok? So then. Leader that we're talking about is also part of the trainings as well. Everybody is Anderson is part of that I mean, you know, that. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's really it's. It's a tough situation to really try figure out. I don't know if you all can do something, but, you know, on behalf of in the sure that, you know, I can't
really. Say, you know, I can't really look at the recommendations and say yea or nay just because, you know, you of our stance. So where we are. However. That that that's a great question that you're all asking. How do you go about that? How do you you go about that? I was an hr director for local for local government at one point. And one of the things that we did for the elected officials that if the elected official was considered doing something wrong, then they can take it up to the ball and they can take up to the board. But you know, Washington Township is smaller. So it's not this many people that, you know, a person can take it up. Employee can take it up to the
board. End to go over that person's head I wonder what can you all do you know, legally or, you know, you know because because you're asking a very great question. How do you go around that That's something that you'll probably have really think about. What can you do it's not something you can do internally internally? Is this something legally to change how that works? Because the employee as an employee, you do have a responsibility to make sure that everyone that comes to work feel safe and they don't feel like they Alright risk for any kind of harm. And that's the responsibility for every employer and h r is the one that would lead that charged with the culture, building the culture and
making sure it's not just compliance. But if that can't I would have that the question back to what can you do legally? Because, you know, there's really nothing I And that's what makes it tough. You know? Yeah, and this is a continuing discussion We appreciate that. Ms Justice offered to continue being engaged with us as we move forward because as we it's obvious, these are some of these are unanswerable questions at this stage. So as we all learn more, hopefully we'll see. Get a little more guidance. Any final questions for as justice that I see your hand up at one time Council. Do it. It's just it's thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it very much. Now we're going to turn to the public speaking part of tonight to take a few comments. If there are any. And we're going to have but there's a statement to be
read. First. As we move to the public comment portion of debate for. There's no proposals. But for this presentations, we would like to remind council members and the public of the few ground rules order for everyone to have a fair chance to speak and be heard. It is important that we each observe the following rules. First, each speaker will be limited to 2 minutes. Second, it any public comments most reasonably relate to the agenda item under consideration. 3rd speakers who stray from the items under consideration or become unduly repetitious MAY be asked to move on to their next point or conclude their comments. Finally attendees who cause disruptions that prevent the council from proceeding through today's agenda in a reasonably effective manner will be
removed. Please remember that some types of threatening speech or Tyson to violence. We're not protected by the First Amendment at And we will deal with those issues they come But we do not think they will. Because Lynnea son, MR. Like make a motion and then rules this evening. I move speakers time limit for comment for this meeting before minutes instead of 2 minutes. Discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor of amending the rules of 4 minutes per speaker say Aye. I opposed. Hearing none. Uh, eh. 4 minutes with a timer. You use your. IPhone. What have you? And for speaker, please introduce yourself and provide zip code. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN Man's the clarifying question regarding this evening. Discussion this evening before becoming sure you You all have this evening
have discuss recommendations and those recommendations to go back to the administration for them to implement were would you the rules committee, writing ordinance to the impasse for self. The explain the next steps after conclusion of tonight's meeting. Good evening. Members of the committee. My name is Morgan Mickelson. And I'm a former employee of the Hart Senate. Ration. I come before you tonight to offer you a perspective from staff. I lead the office of Sustainability from MARCH 2021. To September 2024. I managed a team of 3 I regularly and in communication with multiple current staff members as well. I want to speak to you first Hansen that I want to speak to tonight because I've seen firsthand how firsthand how cheaply
broken the culture inside dogs that administration stunts, real reform is desperately needed. Not just an h r for how reports are handled across the entire working environment. Much as much of what's been reported in the news has focused on the past air hugs set and former members of his leadership team. But I can tell you from experience. That the same culture that allowed a harassment and abuse to happen hasn't gone away. Just still alive and well. And the city County building. When first stories came to light back in 2024. Concerned about the lack of systems to protect current staff from happening again. Remind you, I left managed 3 people. The same leaders
remain in place. Brush off those concerns. When I pushed back on that, it became clear that their focus was not on control. It was on controlling the situation rather than fixing the heart on. This is why I'm concerned with many of these recommendations discuss tonight and I urge you to adamantly pursue and independent third-party selection. I know it's really complicated. Can be even more. This conversation here to this last conversation happening just really reinforce the right? Like so many of you have have danced around this that like hr doesn't actually protect the people. I reported my own instances of experience, inappropriate behavior to hr. This was before the speak. Fully system was in place because was leaving very pregnant at the
time. I had too much going even trying go through that route. Ones that have not been reported. It Intially reached out to me and asked me to chair visit story. After car on the kind of just forgot about me. I reached back out. I followed asked for what, hey, what's happened over just getting around to it. And then nothing. I've heard. That's not a one-off and cents. And I also want reiterate over little bit conditions from the National Women's Defense League because it really come ability behind these recommendations. The council should require that measures are put in place to make sure they're implemented. And 2 full to commit to full transparency. You know, we've heard a lot about like, oh, we
can't talk about this because we jeopardize the individual and then and then the minute that word I can try say right now that's just. That's the s let's hero. There are ways to provide transparency instill trust with the public. Finally, I don't want to add that more robust public engagement season on this effort. Really disappointed with the turnout tonight. And but I know it is really hard to gauge with members of the public, whether it be like these employees or others. I've done that job before, but it is your responsibility to make sure people are here to tell you how they feel. It is not their responsibility come another day to figure out when going down. But whatever, you
know. People care about it. And I am very involves and I almost missed that this meeting was happening. It was not publicized widely enough. I would urge you to reconsider how this public engagement going. And also not to rely on these working groups. The report outs from them, survey, whatever it is because all coming from people that report to the mayor reported. 25. I know you all know what that means. You're not getting transparent information, speak to the employees directly, figure out make that happen because it's that they're not ok. I really appreciate all of this work. On this. Thank you, Morgan. Any additional? Members of the public wish to
speak. All right, hearing none. Obviously, What I this is my opinion. That is I foresee our future steps here. We've digestive lot of information evening. We have a lot we've compiled and studied ourselves. And I think we're going to have to distill all of this information refiner recommendations. Key publicizing them to get public engagement. As we've seen, there are very complicated legal issues involved and this. So we're going to be working with hr and legal department. On how to set things up. Also, a big 800 pound gorilla or the fiscal issues raised by all of this. Creating certain agencies are independent boards. There's a dollar figure assigned to that. Not that this is if we're going to find things with dollars. But that is a steward of taxpayer money.
That is an issue that comes into the calculus so the with regard to the increased publication, information will will will increase that we, too, or at least personally, I am very surprised that the in attendance this evening, I expected a full room and even put notice about any additional sheriff's this evening. Obviously, that was uncalled for. So we hope to increase exposure and get more input. And we do take input from anybody and everybody from every direction we will be talking to the working groups. We all will be talking professional organizations like International Womens Defense League. Because we do not want to just work here in l logical bubble within the enterprise. So that's kind of where going from here. Any further closing comments by
anybody in the U.S. Counselor. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, just a quick question for are turning from the city in terms of end of the year. Final report from the employee survey. Do you anticipate when that will be made available? What the council have access to that and I think really echoing the present or the speaker just share. That is important for us to hear from the employees. And I think that's the way that we could hear from the employees. Will be a public document. You said end of the year. That's DECEMBER. 25th or require to the that by the end of the year, I can try to find more specificity. I'm not charge of the contract with rep. Tell us that I can ask them. Any other comments. Hearing. None. We