--------- So, well, see what we can work on next meeting. What else do you guys have on the the budget that's concerning or questions or we discussed the 25% increase on CAD? I'd like to know how that Sure. happens.
And what that's what that's for. Quality makes sense with new hires that you'd have more turnout gear being purchased. That's a logical increase in expenses. Uh it be 2404. Okay. Thank you.
210 210-01 on the first page. Software support mobile CAD. That was the one that Nick and I both had questions on. Okay. So 210-01. All right. I got a star on there. All right. Yeah,
let me know what you want me to bring up. 307 307 professional services other I know that stays the same each year. Let's see what they use. Well, they're saying 2,000 increase. Oh, yeah.
Could be training some sort. Screening. training or screening? Screening. Sure. Like uh psychoaval. Would that qualifer there? Would that be something else? Yeah, we'll
find out. And I believe 380-01 is because uh station one uses more uh natural gas or than than they had expected or propane. I don't remember which it was, but so that one probably was a natural gas. That one probably makes the most sense because they were paying for the full building versus before they were only
paying for their portion, not the PD's portion and it was more than they had expected when they took all that over. I remember that was a discussion or something at some point. Do you uh George, do you have any idea why there's more repair and maintenance
building at one and three? I I think that conversation was brought up. Um, it made sense. I think they needed some they needed some maintenance, unexpected maintenance. I don't recall. Was it when the uh power loss and the gener kicked on? It was supply 220 and burned out a bunch of stuff.
That's what it was. Yep. They lost like some computers, some speakers, some lighting. Yep. Was that in station one or three? Station one lost power. or the generator kicked on, it's miswired. So, part of it
was supplying 220 to the 120 circuits inside the building. Okay. So, then some stuff couldn't tolerate that and got fried. Is that the first time it's kicked on or like Yeah. Really? Tested, but never transferred power to the building. So, it would be isolated out, load tested, but not
transferring power to the the building. Wow. And that building's what, probably 40 years old. I don't know how old the gen set is, but damn. Okay, that's cool. in station three. Uh there's a $2,500 increase on that. Do you remember what that was? Was that the concrete pad?
Uh no, that was at station two, wasn't it? East one. Yeah. Is in that three. Was it at three? Okay. That was where the concrete pad went. Okay. I think it that's about that amount, isn't it? Think you're right. I thought they traded advertising
for part of that. that was talked about in August. They traded the advertising for part of that. They paid up front for it, but then they were trying the they asked I think the liquor store to do uh their boot roundup thing towards that, but the money had already so I guess I wouldn't be put in
the 26 budget if it was done this year. That whole thing seemed weird. Yeah, that might be something for you to ask about. That was talked about when you weren't there at the the concrete pad and the funding for that. But I know he traded some um two pads. Two pads. One at the the hydrant and then one at
the door where the roof uh water sheds onto the grass. Had been grass. Okay. Yeah. And he discussed trading some uh rodeo advertising for it. All right. I made a note. Okay. Everything
else is a lot of unchanges or free stationary stuff. I'm still going to fight as hard as I can for that 3.2% minimum. I agree. Is the ladder the only piece of equipment that you're aware of, Jeff,
that they want to I think in my personal opinion, I think there's other pieces of equipment that I mean, as far as like what the leadership is pushing for. Is that the only I don't know. Uh I've heard several board members been asking for a couple
of years about a detailed capital replacement plan, and I haven't seen one in quite a while. I don't know if George has requested one or No, but it they used to provide one. What?
They used to provide a capital replacement plan. Yes. When I first got on. Yes, I have that somewhere. So, I'll get that that 3.2%. I'll get more clarity on it. But if I remember right, that's the plan
percentage to go up every year from here into the future. So next year they're not going to try to hit zero or the year after. If I understood right, it's a minimum 3.2% every year to get more money in the capital
improvement. Got plenty to discuss at the next meeting, I guess. Is there anything else that George that you had questions on from us about from the JPA or any of the other documents you provided that you can think of at the moment?
No, I what I tried to put together for you guys was just a history. The way I looked at it and the history of the fire district and what I thought were the powers for everybody involved. Um,
I'd like more clarification from Mike about You're saying they contract out some of the townships to the local fire departments. Do they do they pay to contract out? Did you clarify that? What?
Absolutely. Yeah, it's a contract. When we had Stacy, we paid X amount of dollars to Stacy. We had North Brancher paid X amount of dollars. When the city was in charge of the fire department, we paid x amount of dollars to the city of Vani, too. Well, could you all of them had contracts. Could you explain to me then if I'm a
township and I already belong to the district and I already pay my portion why I would want to contract out to another fire department on top of that proximity about what? Proximity. Proximity. So maybe quicker response time if needed. Okay.
And who well who would determine that? Wouldn't that be determined by 911 anyway? So, oh, geography. Geography. Township boards usually decide what sections they want to put where. It's probably been established for a long time. If our whole township Okay, that's all
right. So, the whole township is not in the district, just part of it. Right. Correct. When I see those lines, and when they formed the district, that's when our township decided to put all of our cards in the basket. Did you guys save money coming to the district from the contracting or No, it costs
more to come to the district. It's definitely more expensive. Okay. Why you do it? Better service you thought. No choice. No, everybody has a choice. No, but I mean like as far as the benefits to the ISO rating and stuff and reducing risk.
Not no station three was being built. It hadn't been finished yet. Um and we were hoping that we'd have more um active firefighters in that particular station
and it will it'll happen. It just it's going to take development and and people. Um it's a long-term deal, but we thought this would be the best bet the best bank for the money at the time. Hindsight, I don't know that we'd do that again, but
I'm glad you guys are. I This is the best meeting I've been to in a long time. thoughtful conversation, lots of good questions, and the most important thing is that now I know Oxford Township isn't standing alone on our on our questions, or at least Mike Miller from Oxford
Township isn't standing alone. Sure. So, are you planning on going to the next fireboard meeting? Uh, unlike you guys, I can't go there because then we have um a quorum. We only have three people. So, that's why we limit it to just one
person. So, we don't have a quorum. Not that we're making decisions, but it's still um transparency, transparency, transparency. Can't you post though that you're both going to be there and that there could be a quum involved?
We absolutely we can. Um much like your administrator here, you have to get it posted. Um yeah, three days. Okay. No, because I really appreciate um my
fellow board members making it to the meeting and filling in the gaps because it's a lot to remember and I'm new and I have so much to learn about just the inner makings of the fire district and how a fire department works and um I knew there was going to be a lot
involved and I'm I don't feel like I'm taking it on totally alone which is good for now. Yep. Any other questions or discussions, Jeff? No. Nick, not this time.
George. All right. Well, I I have a little summary of some of the stuff we've talked about. So the first thing we talked about was, you know, the JPA and uh we had a consensus amongst ourselves to uh request as as one of seven board
members um that you guys have a special section session or some sort of work session with the JPA either with an attorney or without um so that you guys can actually talk as a board about every little item in it. because if you're going to sign up for something for the
next 20 years, 30 years, whatever, I think every item should be talked about amongst you guys. So, we had a consensus amongst us to for you to ask for that. Um, we talked a lot about the minutes and the agendas being posted. I would I would like it if George, you could bring that forward. Um, so that, you know, I'm
sure they've already heard it from us, but if if we can keep reiterating that uh along with the video streaming or some sort of recording of some kind. So that's the minutes, the agenda, and either recording or video streaming.
And then we talked about uh the retirement numbers. I would like to personally see uh what the average chief is putting into the retirement across the state as well as the uh the volunteer firefighters or the paid on call, sorry. um what their retirement
numbers are as an average and then the capital maintenance fund numbers and their formal replacement schedule um and how they're going to justify putting $230,000 into their proposed budget for capital replacement when it's been $100,000 in the past. Uh
which results in an increase for our taxpayers. Um, so those were the main points that I think we talked about. Was there anything that I missed? All right. So, George, if you could give them that feedback and hopefully they can listen to this since it is recorded, they can listen and hear this for
themselves, too. Um, I'll entertain a motion to adjurnn unless there's other discussion. Motion to adjurnn. Second. Motion to adjurnn by council member Peterson, second by council member Heman. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries 40. We are adjourned.
Thanks, Mike. Part: 2
Yeah. Is the clock going to be fixed? Oh, it's charging. Okay. All right. Sounds good. You're live. All right. We might as well start then. Uh, it's 5:00. Best call this meeting to order. If we can all
rise for the pledge of allegiance. I allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
Doing roll call. All members are present minus council member Lundine uh who has to work late tonight and will not be here for this meeting most likely. Uh we'll open it up to public comment. If there's anybody here that wants to provide some public comment, you're more than welcome to come forward and do so.
Yeah, if you'd like to just state your name and address for the record, you probably And there's probably a button on there to turn it on the light. Oh, it is on. There should be a button maybe. Testing. There you go.
Mike Miller, Oxford Township. Um, I'm just here to weigh in on this uh amended fire contract for the district. Um, I've been, gosh, since the beginning. I I've been here since the beginning when they
started the fire district before we used to contract with the city, one-third of our township. Our whole township threw in when the district decided to do their their fire district. So, we went from having North Branch, Stacy, and Isani to just having the Sani fire district. Um,
that corresponded with the new um fire station being built, too. Um, so I think I have a fairly good grasp of what's taken place from historically wise. Um, the contract was written, it was one for
all and all for one. Essentially, you had to have a unanimous vote to get anything passed or anything done. Um, I know that's a tough a tough deal to do, but it seems like we've been pretty, you know, we've bought new equipment, we've
been able to do different things. Um and it's worked. Um but the biggest thing on this new contract is the taxation without complete representation. Um and the thing that's been we've been
told in our township is that if there's a train derailment, how can we charge for that? If the if the tire place over here catches on fire, how do we charge for that? Well, each in entity, all the townships and the city, we all have state statutes on being able to charge
for extraordinary circumstances. We have we have taxing authority. All of us have taxing authority. It wasn't taken away from us when we started the fire district. But if something that's extraordinary comes along, we have the ability through state statutes to be able to charge for that. Um my concern is if that fire district
takes taxing and be able to charge for fires, um how do they that Okay, so you have a fire, you have a fire, and then you you want to appeal the charges that you get. Who do you go to? You go to the fire board, the ones that are charging you to begin with. It's not a it's not a
sustainable system. So, um I'm just here to support. George and I have had many conversations. You and I have texted back and forth. Um I think George and I are on the same page. just sent him a long email with all of the state statutes that um give us taxing
authority. Um and I think we have to kind of stay strong on this. I would really like to know I think the city would like to maybe know who is pushing for the taxing um which township, if it isn't the city and it's not Oxford Township, which townships are pushing
for this and why? Um, so if it's the if it's the personnel, the employees that are pushing for it, you know, I have a hard I have a hard time for with that. Sure. But anyways, I feel grateful and humbled that you'll listen.
But that's all I really that's really what I have is I'm here to support you guys because your council member has been straightforward many long conver late at night in the afternoon. Uh we've had a lot of good conversations as you and I have
too. So yeah, we have a diligent group here. I appreciate you coming in. So you said uh you know we have taxing authority as a city or as a township or um for what was the word you used like excessive situations or Yeah. So extraordinary. Extraordinary. Do you know how that's
defined in state statute? Would that be something that we as a city would would dictate or would decide like what's ex what is extraordinary? Would that be five hours? Is that something that we as townships and cities decide or is there some overlaying state statute that you know of?
It doesn't define that. The statute's pretty broad and in its uh um use of the language. I'm not a lawyer and as you know they twist and turn these things around, but it's a fairly short statute. I get I sent it to George. It was only like what maybe three or four sentences.
It is it is listed in here. I just haven't read the statute. I read this line here but not the whole thing. Yeah. So, a fairly short statute on both on both of the statutes, but um the point is is we have the authority to do it and then if the people decide that, hey, this isn't it, they have the
ability to come to the city or to the townships and appeal it directly with the local governments. Sure. With elected officials, which is which is important. Correct. Sure. Okay. The way I interpret it is that
to cover the city and the townships, we would each form a resolution saying that we have the right to collect for extraordinary costs. We don't have to. According to state statute, we can still charge after the fact, but if we wanted to cover
ourselves, we write up a resolution saying that we have the right to collect for the fire district. um that would cover us 100%. Okay. So, how does that work with I was at the one of the fireboard meetings. They talked about this at length with mutual aid and that's really what their
problem is now. They they said that it was the mutual aid and being able to help other districts and they can charge us but we can't charge them or I know that was kind of bundled into the same conversation. Do you go do you guys know much about that or I can address that. Just give me one
second because I just sent myself a note about that. Okay. Under Minnesota State Statute 47159, the fire district has only the powers to delegate it. Um, Whoops. Give me a sec.
Okay. Okay. Since our J uh JPA never gave the district taxing or ordinance authority, it can't levy a tax. It can't place a lean and it can't certify charges to property taxes. So if another city or township doesn't pay, the district can't
force payment itself. But for mutual aid, give me a second here. So, okay. So if we bill, so if the fire district bills Cambridge
and they don't want to pay the bill because they say, "Well, we don't have taxing authority. Uh the district itself doesn't have the taxing authority or or the ability in a joint powers agreement to charge them.
A city or township could set step up and ask for that payment under mutual aid." But under mutual aid, most mutual aid agreements like for with the city of Cambridge, almost 100% of the time, uh, we help
you, you help us, we never charge. We're just talking about an extraordinary circumstance where maybe a huge industrial place in Cambridge starts on fire and we end up being there
3 days in mutual aid. Well, we need to set up a a mutual aid agreement with Cambridge saying if we help you or you help us and there's extraordinary costs involved, we would like each other to
reimburse each other for those costs. So, that actually has to be under the mutual aid agreement itself. Without that, it's really hard to actually even bill them for any extraordinary cost. That's the way I'm interpreting it. Um,
but if we have an agreement in place, we still don't need the fire district to collect. Usually the main fire department in the district is the one who does most of the collection, which would be the city of Vicei. And we could take on collections
for the townships and the city. It's just not saying we would, but we could probably would only be fair to get paid back for our time, staff involvement if there's any attorney costs to collect and then the collection costs because we
can levy um property and put leans out. Um there's lots of different ways we can collect. Um at least that's the way I interpreted it. So as far as that mutual aid argument, I believe we can still
collect. I mean, think about it when we the district is more like a cooperative. It wasn't the city of Ice Hannity. We have our own fire department. It's the district. So does the township. It's the district. The district is just delegated authority from from each of our
entities. We delegate them authority. And and we don't want to delegate them, in my opinion, too much authority where they become their own entity, which then they're not accountable to the community because we have elected officials
right now who are on the board who are accountable to the community and the more power we give the district, the less accountability we have as townships in this city. So, I mean, it's a very confusing agreement
the way I look at it because really the the real a name that would make sense for the fire district would be Ianti Township Fire Cooperative. That's really easy for the public to understand and that's what it is. It's a cooperative.
Um, every everything that all the arguments I've seen from the fire district can be handled on the city or the township level to the best of my knowledge. I'm still waiting for a couple answers on a few
things, but I'm I'm 99% certain, and it's never been discussed in any of the board meetings. It always seems to be that we have to have this power to get extraordinary costs. Well, and I can understand the district's position where it's either it's easier to consolidate
it all to the district and just have one entity be in charge of collections and um you know going out and having to contact the people who were trying to charge and
take care of all the leans and everything. But I think we're we're delegating too much authority away from the co-op and I think we need to keep that in house and we just need to figure out a way under the joint powers agreement to consolidate that and I
think we just need to I'm going to have to try to somehow communicate to the board that it's to their best interest to keep this as a co-op in my opinion. That's still a discussion between the city attorney and
us, I guess, and to decide what the best direction to go is. I mean, that's a short that's a short answer to everything I have to say tonight. I don't know. Did I answer that question? I scenarios by then. What? Can I run some scenarios by you then? Yes. So, just for clarifications, you're
saying if there was a mutual aid request for Cambridge, Yep. that one body of the seven would submit for um reimbursement from Cambridge and then distribute the funds to the fire district. So say that hold on hold on a second guys. Should we close the public comment and go to
adopting the agenda and then go to the work session items? Okay, I didn't realize. Yeah, go ahead, Mike. Just one last comment. Sure. There's only two entities in the fire district that are 100% in the fire district. It's you guys, the city, and
Oxford Township. Not one other one is a standalone. Everybody has um agreements with uh Delo's got Cambridge or uh um Princeton has Cam, everybody has something that's, you know, around.
Cambridge, North Branch, um everybody has a little bit of something else. Uh Athens has their south St. Francis, I guess it is. We're the only entities that have put all of our chips really it's okay others. So keep that
definitely in mind. Um and I'm I'll defer to you guys. I mean I I think I've had good conversation with George. Um if you guys come up with something you say, "Hey, this is what we want to do." I'm going to back you because I I truthfully believe that after talking to the two of you, I've never Sorry, I've never talked
to you guys. Um but uh be, you know, our township will back what you guys have going on. I know Peter Ted is the attorney for the fire district. Um I don't know if that's your city attorney or not. Nope. No. But I if you guys um want to, you know,
bring circle in your city attorney to to make sure that this agreement is a good agreement for for you guys. Um I'll defer to that. I think that, you know, we'll support you. But um as you're having these conversations with the fire district, just remember you guys have
all the chips in it. that Oxford Township has all the chips in it. We're the only ones. Oh, I didn't know that. That's cool. I didn't I didn't either. Can I ask Kim a question about that? So, in your perspective since So, you're saying they have mutual aid agreements with other
fire departments surrounding them basically. Not mutual aid. They have contracted services with Cambridge, with Princeton, um St. Francis, St. Francis. So those are contract those are contracts just like we used to have
a contract with the city of Stacey the city of North Branch and with the city of Isani. Um so why do they have duplication? Is that what you're saying? They have duplication of services. Well they because they're um geographically geographically some of their parts are
closer to that entity and so they've kept those sections with that with that uh particular place. No, you guys are close enough to be in North Branch or Stacy though, too, as far as fire district, aren't you? Or Lynwood. Yeah. Or Lynwood. So, you have the choice, but you you chose
Okay. Yeah. Well, there's also a buyin from the fire district. So, say North Branch Township wants to come into the fire district. I believe it's $30,000 they have to put down to come into the fire district to help pay for the current infrastructure. And I always thought that Athens was
also 100% into the district also, but I can't I don't Yeah, I don't know what it is now, but um I always thought that was another entity that was 100% in. But no, there's no duplication unless it's a mutual aid,
but it's just when you look on a the map, there's sections. So, okay. Like Spencer Brook, half that is Princeton and the other half is station two. So Mike, you had said that, you know, you guys would kind of go along with what we or or at least consider
what we had said, what we say. Um, is your board as a whole, are you guys I assume you're not okay with this JPA then as a as a aggregate group. Have you voted on the JPA that you guys We have not because we we asked the same questions that I said here tonight. We
don't know who's pushing for it and what the real reason is because the the the two examples again are a train derailment here which doesn't affect Oxford Township but it affects our district can we collect on that and the state statute we
definitely can. The other one is if the fire dump uh the fire dump tire dump it's not tire processing I want to call it correct but recycling recycling if they have a fire can we collect on that and and we can charge them we have the abilities as our individual entities or as a whole we can
charge them currently where we can't collect which you brought up um George is if uh if we decide to go up to um uh where did we have the big fire way up north Um, Bamiji was it was that where
the they went up there for Blandon paper mill when that burnt. They got that brand new uh aerial ladder truck and they sent it up there for 4 days to squirt w water on it and they were able to charge well they charged. They didn't they didn't have taxing authority. They just did it and then when they found out
when Typo Creek Kennels burnt in Oxford Township and and the folks at Typo Creek pushed against it and then that went up the ladder and they found out they didn't have taxing authority. So they haven't charged anybody since then um to the best of my knowledge. So that would
be up to the cities or townships to initiate and then at that point the cities or the township could decide if they morally want to charge for this. Like us up here elected people could decide if the city wants to charge for that. Is that how I understand that? But then how does that trickle down to everybody else? If it's a district and
everybody else has to pay for it and all of a sudden there's a fire here and we don't think that person should that business or person should have to pay for it, then everybody else has to pay for it. Correct. Correct. Correct. But but again, here's the this is the bottom line and I I
think this I can speak on this pretty easily. Um we've never said no as a district, as a fire district when the when the when they're looking for a new truck or they're looking for new turnout gear or whatever, we as a group have
said not yet, but we've never said no. You know, we've tried to figure out how to get it financed and and work the way through it. So, but they've never there's not been a time yet that we've had to go back and say this isn't working. Um, so that's the other thing
is, you know, what has changed that that what has changed is in my opinion, this is just Mike Miller, what has changed is that they're not going to go to the Blandon fire. They're not going to go to International Falls and they're certainly not going to go over to um
car recycling, northern recycling, and be able to charge for going way outside of our district. And I have a problem with that. When we only have fire 20 firefighters, that's a pretty skinny crew. So if you take one truck and a few firefighters out, you just took a fairly large percentage, not only our equipment, but our people to go fight a
fire and then left us short-handed here. So I don't mind helping North Branch and I don't mind helping all the other surrounding Princetons and that stuff. But when you start jumping over fire districts to go fight big fires, I have a huge problem with that just as a taxpayer. So So I have a
an important follow-up question. Um, so you want to close the public comment section yet? Yeah, let's just close the public comment and then we can talk about it back. Comment related to that he might be able to address though. The other the other scenario that they discussed was if there was a wildfire
that there's a system for DNR to pay out to correct agencies and that without they said without having the taxing authority within the fire district they have no way to receive the funds. So even though they're wanting to transfer funds that without what I would tell was without
the ability to to tax or to collect that they can't even receive the funds if it's part of the system and offered. I can cover that during the meeting. Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's uh we'll uh Is there anybody else that wants to speak in public comment? Nobody else is here
so probably not but figured I'd ask. All right. We'll close the public comment. We will move on to adopting the agenda. Are there any other changes to the agenda? Hearing none, I'll take a motion to adopt the agenda. Motion to adopt. Motion by council member Heman, second by Council Member Peterson. All in favor
say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries 40. The agenda is adopted. We will move into F1, Fire District Joint Powers Agreement Discussion. We've already had a little bit, but All right. Well, I' I'd like to make an opening statement on this opening.
I know. I would just like to say I really think this agreement that we have, the original agreement as a co-op and working together between the townships and the city, it it it's a good agreement. You know, Mike thought it was a good value for everybody. And
you know, the more I look at it and think about it, I think it is a good value. And Mike Becker. Yes. Mike Becker. Okay. Yes. Mike Becker. And you know, I know that we're proud of the district um and how
we've evolved and being able to build a couple of substations. I know the community here supports the firefighters and the fire district tremendously. I mean, we'll see that later tonight. Um, I know the townships have stepped in and
done their own donations and helped and I think it's a it's a really good it's a really good district and I think what we need to just look at as a fire district body and I going to try to have
that conversation and it's I feel I get drowned out in those board meetings and it's really hard to get my voice across sometimes. But I I think if we just look at it as a co-op
and keep the delegated power within the townships in the city, I think that's the best value and the most accountability to the elected officials and to the city and to the townships like I stated earlier. Um,
but I I like it the way it is and hopefully we can keep it the way it is. And I I got a lot of questions to ask tonight with you guys, but I Where do you want me to start with this? So, I I see it actually from a little
different angle than you guys at the moment. Um, say right now, uh, the townships and the cities have the authority to decide when to tax or when to ask for the extraordinary circumstances reimbursement, rate. Well, what if just a hypothetical, say Oxford, I don't know the percentage that you guys pay in,
just say it's 15%. Oxford pays in 15% to the district, we pay in 42% or whatever it is. So if there's a big fire that happens in Oxford and Oxford's leadership decides, no, we don't want to tax these people. Now the city is on the hook for that and we don't actually have
our say. So maybe this one is actually better if it goes to the fire board because the fire board is an equal vote for everybody. So that in that case that to me is a scary thought for the city because if they decided no, we like this business and we don't want to piss them
off. Now we're on the hook for something that they decided, not a fire district decision. If that makes sense. It it totally makes sense and it can be wrote in a joint powers agreement. Sure. Right. That that the chief has the authority to determine or the district or the board
has the authority to determine if it's an extraordinary fire. Sure. And ask the township or the city to do the collection on it. But what if a township refuses? So that's where maybe it is better to consolidate in this case but leave that up to the board's decision the the seven
fire board members as a decision to tax or you know and then they had talked about what like 8 hours anything over eight hours like there needs to be a written in this that something concrete. So if it's more than 8 hours the townships or the city are required to tax this or required to get the fees
from that. There's so many ways to to go about that. And like I mentioned earlier, you know, since we have the main firehouse in in the city, we could take on that authority if we wanted to because we could,
I believe, tax or or uh collect for Oxford or for Aans. That's would be a question for the attorney, but or we could take over. Okay. So if the chief just say, "Yeah,
that's an extraordinary fire in Oxford Township." The board could vote on it. It doesn't have to be unanimous vote, majority vote, and they agree that it is. Then Oxford would have to right reach out and do it. And that can be
wrote in a J joint powers agreement. It doesn't have to be full authority on the district. It doesn't really complicate things. I mean, you can delegate authority all in one spot, but once you would it would it be better just to have the fire district do it then if the fire
district is going to vote and decide on it and they handle the billing for everybody cuz what if Oxford I don't know how many meetings they have but there's townships that don't have a lot of they have to increase our staffing for that though and they have a a billing person. No no that's got to be something that that's going to be a rarity.
So we can without giving ordinance authority. So we can write in the joint powers agreement that we will delegate the authority of the townships in the city under Minnesota state statutes that we already can use to do that. We would
we could delegate that authority onto the district to do that. We could without giving them ordinance authority. So they would have the ability to collect. You can you can do that, I'm I'm pretty certain, without
having to give them the ability to actually have uh the authority to have ordinance. Um I have it in covered in here somewhere. Mutual aid. Have you guys had a a actual work
session on this JPA? No. What? Seriously? The Huh? It's it's really hard with the board to have these discussions. It seems to get taken over a lot by one person or another. I mean, we should have a we
definitely should have a work session on this. Yeah. And actually discuss what we want as a board for authority and what we don't want. I agree 100%. Um, I'm pretty sure that's the direction that's going to go once it has to go that way because we could sit here and we could break this down
all night, but at the end of the day, if the if the district members don't know what's in this or don't understand or have never had a work session on it, I mean, that that just seems like a not due process to me. Okay. I think unless you have a lawyer tell that whole board exactly how this
is going to go. You're it's always going to be a he said he said or this is what I heard and this is what I heard by four or five different people. I've been on that district for almost seven or 14 years and this has been a topic of discussion the whole time.
So why has there never been a work session with an attorney? Talk with the board. That doesn't make any sense. The board should have got a lawyer involved and and uh been discussed and there has to be a definite answer to this. Can you charge fees? Can you not charge
fees? If something happens, is it going to be put on to, you know, the entities uh wherever the location is, is it going to fall into that entity? But I just we can sit here and discuss this whole thing, but unless you get that board educated by a lawyer, I agree.
Nothing's going to change. And it can't be the district's attorney. It has to be either the city attorney or a neutral attorney. And that's my opinion because I just seen what the district attorney did. And I don't believe he had the best interests of the city and townships
in mind when he wrote up what it what he wrote up. And that's just my opinion that can be discussed f further. But here I found it right here. fire districts uh joint powers uh created under Minnesota statute 471.59.
The district has no independent tax and authority power unless it explicitly is designated uh delegated in the joint powers agreement. If the joint powers agreement clearly states the district board may utilize the collection powers available
to its member cities and townships under 429101 514.67 and 270A then the district can act as an agent for the members to collect. Now,
that is the understanding I have. That has to be um that was one of the things I was waiting for 100% answer back from our attorney, but the way I'm looking at it, I'm pretty sure that's the way this can roll because we didn't give up our
individual rights when we put this to this original agreement together as a co-op. We all retained our individual rights as a city and township. So these rights can be given to the district without giving them
the power to have ordinance which I think the more I can make my point really quick here. I think the meeting I missed. Okay. So first I'll go to the meeting before the
meeting I missed the fire board meeting. Um, we came to an agreement that we would have the joint powers agreement rewrote and we would roll in amendment one, two, and three into an original agreement. We would consolidate it, take
out some redundancy, and give the power of ordinance. That was it. You were at that meeting. I don't remember any discussion about anything else. The meeting I missed was the very next meeting. Was there any discussion about the chief wanted to be
CEO or fire marshal? No. Okay. So, here's the scenario. Here's what happened. So, we explicitly gave the chief those that direction. And what come back was
the joint power agreement that we're all seeing where all of a sudden now the chief is CEO, he's fire marshal. Um, we have uh we've I have a list of the things that were taken out and put in
that the board never directed to happen. Now, I don't know if the chief did it. I don't know if the attorney did it, but it hasn't even been a discussion with the board because at my last meeting, I had received the joint powers agreement two hours before that meeting.
I I got into the second page and I had to I had to put it away. And so I didn't have any discussion about what was in to be discussed. So I gave them the answer that at this time we were going to talk further about it and that would give me time to read what was put in it and put
together my thoughts about it. So I got a question for Mike. I got a question for Mike then. You've been on since the beginning. Have have you have the board members always been given the information an hour or two right before
the meeting to process all that information and then make informed decisions on the content? Mike, can you come up to the microphone? Sorry, we know your name and address, so you're good. But you can Yeah, you can sit with it. There's
Yeah, there's nobody else here. So, unfortunately, that's true. Um, and it's not it's not it's not malice or anything like that. It's just they pull stuff together and they put it together. It's a it's a um it's just that's the way it's been for for the last 30 years.
Well, I think it needs to change it. You know, I can't imagine being on this council and getting it Monday night for a Tuesday morning for a Tuesday meeting with working full-time and then trying to tell us that we have to make good conscious decisions on for taxpayers.
That seems like a lot of information to be thrown on you and then try to make good decisions. I agree 100%. That doesn't seem right. I think the agendas of theirs need to be published beforehand. I think their meetings need to be need to be recorded and published so people can see them so there's accountability. There's, you know, and I've brought this forward to them like
there's an issue here with he said, she said in the last meeting and people that aren't there are left out and it just snowballs and we don't want that. We want open communication with the residents, with city councils, with the township boards, with everybody, the firefighters, everything. Um, so that's
something that definitely needs work. I I would agree with you on that. And so maybe you guys can discuss at the next board meeting or soon about maybe that process changing. I I I want to just clarify one thing cuz
when that joint powers agreement was sent to me was just a few hours before the last city council meeting where I had to approach you guys about the joint powers agreement and update on on what was going on. So, it wasn't an hour or two before the fire board meeting,
but their agendas aren't posted beforehand. What sort of information do you guys get before as as a fire board member? It it makes my job really difficult as a fire board member because
the meetings the fire board meeting always follows the city council meeting and the meeting of you know the council of a whole and a city council meeting. So, I get the agenda on Monday, but I'm preparing all
weekend if I have the weekend to prepare for the city council and council the whole. And then Monday, I get the fire district board agenda. And then Tuesday is our meeting. And usually it's the next following day or the day after is the fire board meeting. and it doesn't
give me a lot of time to prepare, especially if there's a JPA, right, or or almost anything or even run some thoughts by anybody that I may need to run them by. Um, I'd like to see that
date changed where I don't have my fullest schedule with the city of the month, you know, at least a following week after. But I haven't there's so many so many battles to be fought. Just Yeah. I don't think I don't think that's a battle that you're going to win
because other townships I mean everybody has those responsibilities at one time of the month or the other. But have have you brought up uh to the fire district board them using this room at all? What have you guys discussed if
Oh, I mentioned it. Mum was the word. Mom was not nothing. Nobody commented. that well this would be the easiest place to video and audio. Yes, I mentioned at the last board meeting. Can we make a motion or maybe a
consensus as a group? I know we did for the for the recording, but maybe you know there's a lot of stuff in this JPA. I think you guys I can't believe you haven't had a work session with the attorney there. I would like for us as a consensus to say hey fireboard you guys need to have a work session with your
attorney present. everybody needs to talk about it because what we do here like doesn't do anything for them. So, it's really like a not a waste of our time, but it's it's I don't think it's going to translate to them actually everybody understanding what all of this is and going through. You guys need to
go through it line by line and have a discussion on, you know, if there's if there's one phrase in here that one township has a problem with and then they ask a question, maybe the other township's like, "Oh, yeah, duh. We didn't think about that." because there's so much in here that I think as government when you're when you're
pressed for time or when you're not totally involved with it or don't care enough, you're just likely to just motion to approve. And if you have the stuff pointed out to you directly, then you know and you can make informed decisions. And I think that's what I would like to see us make a motion for
them to in our opinion to have a work session with the attorney present so that they can actually have a discussion amongst you seven board members because that's what needs to happen. Not us. I think all of us are in agreement. Um it seems to be that we're not we're not okay with what's here currently in the JPA.
Is that if I could just for clarification, you're talking about TD, the fire district attorney, right? Not city attorney. Just for clarity. Well, I would have to disagree with having a district attorney there at this moment. At this moment, because I don't
know who's responsible for what got put into the joint powers agreement. I don't know if it was the chief or the district's attorney. And and and in my eyes, if it was the district attorney, well then district's attorney, then he
in my eyes doesn't have the best interests of the townships and the cities. Unless that can be explained to me by our own attorney why maybe he had. But looking at this from the outside, um we're changing it from a a simple
cooperative to giving delegating more power to the fire district, which makes us all less accountable and um a lot less say. I haven't I mean, you won't want me to go through what extra powers the chief has and what
could be involved. Well, that isn't going to happen anyway. I mean, that's just one thing I can't agree on. Everything that is being proposed is already covered right now, right? I mean, I I see no reason to have a chief as a fire marshal for one because we already have that party. We
already have that delegated within the city. Um, we have the right to have staff or hire contract services. All it is is we're double dipping if we have him as fire marshal. In fact, it could be it could be a problem. And
and CEO I don't the power we're delegating him being CEO would give us as a board less less power. I mean, we're going to he has a right to do contracts now at X amount or under if we sign this
agreement. So then we're not even at that point 100% responsible for the money flow through through the district. Um I There's a lot of little things we can look at, but have you set that amount yet?
Has a number been thrown out there? I don't recall if that number has been been approved yet. So, could we discuss in August? I don't remember if it was solidified or not, but they just they discussion on they said you don't want the number too low to
where if you have an apparatus out of service that any large component on it, you he wouldn't have the ability to have it replaced without board approval. but that there was like a exit exigent or emergency circumstance clause within there or they were proposing that so if
it was to keep the fire district operational that he would have the ability to so I think they're looking for scope rather than a dollar amount like if it's to maintain apparatus um operational readiness then possibly having that but
not a dollar amount. So, well, I would like to rephrase it if we take, you know, just a a friendly vote on just to ask them to sit down as a board and with, you know, a attorney
and just iron out some of these issues that have been there for quite a long time. I just don't think as a city, you know, telling townships how to operate, right, is going to go over very well, right? So, it's all about mutual
agreement and working together. Um, so, right, but we have to we have to get some clarity on this. These are questions that have been going on for years and years. So, yeah, and that's that's where my my stance is as as just 17th of the fire
district. I think, you know, if we say like we would like to see you guys have a work session so that people can get on the same page, that's our 17th. George can bring that up, they can say yes or no. I mean, if you haven't had a work session on this, that that just seems a
little bit wild. Um, and I think we could we could hammer through this stuff and and talk about it all night, but I don't know it's going to make any difference because at this point, you know, I would like to talk about the budget. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I would love to talk about it more, but I think we should get that get that done because I think
that's going to be the most important thing that comes out of this tonight. Um, just based on what I'm hearing. Uh, so I would I don't know if we need a motion for that or you just just want to have a consensus vote probably on something like that. We can't take any action in a work session. So no motions. Okay. So would you guys you okay with
George, you know, asking for a work session as the fire district altogether with a lawyer or without a lawyer? You guys want to have a discussion of with or without? Think that board needs to sit down and really start and iron out some is some of the main issues within the JPA. Yeah. whether
there's some issues with the JPA, but even if the JPA was already ironed out, giving them more power when they don't have like I had brought up like getting the agenda beforehand, making it publicly available because I knew I couldn't be there in September. So, I went and scoured everything trying to
find where do they post meeting minutes and agendas and I couldn't find either of them. So, and then I brought up the recording meetings and transparency, all stuff. No, no real reception from it. So giving them more power in the city
doesn't make any sense when they're not accountable. I I would say there can be improvements. Um but we need to start making some small steps in the right direction. You know, if it's getting the information to the board members sooner, uh and have a
little more transparency. Not just board members, I think the public like I want to know what's going on. I can't find meeting minutes last meeting that I couldn't be at. I think that needs to be part of that discussion also. Can I Yeah, there there's a question I wanted to ask the board here anyway, and that is I
mean I I could spring for it myself, but there's a lot of really good AI recorders. The chief said, "No problem. Record the record the meetings." Um, anywhere from a hundred to $225
and they pick up every word. I would have to make notes who said it, but I don't even think that's really important in most of this most of the circumstances. Would it work as a group discussion? Yes. So, it will pick up the conversation of the whole group and it
will also transcribe it into print if you wanted it to. Um, I've done a lot of research and I was Well, some police departments are using that right now. What? There's some police departments using AI to transcribe, right? Uh, police reports.
Yep. That was just a thing on channel 5. So they're AI recorders. They work really well. They have really high ratings. It might be something that if the board wanted to authorize I any board member who goes in now or in the future could record all the meetings and
make them available to the board they're currently on. Or here's a here's a draft of a budget. Let's throw it in there, right? Or recommend it being part of that. it it it's it just seems like a lot of cost for me to put out
um by myself. So, I mean, if you guys want to think about I think it would be the best interest of the city because not only would our attorney be able to hear conversations of any meetings that happen, it would be on record. um the city would have a record, but I don't
know what the legality of that if the city has that record, you know, and what we would do with it or how it would be stored or or if we could even make it public. And if we did, then what responsibilities would we
have if we did that? So we would if we took in um a recorded document or a paper document whatever becomes city property does become data requestable. It does be needs to be held by our data retention and be um available to the public and we have to supply it. Uh if
the attorney is willing to listen to a recording just know you're going to pay by the hour for him to listen advise. It could really get expensive. it might be something that you maybe want to then have an attorney be present at the meeting to really knock out some stuff. And I do
know that I looked it up in my old emails between April and August there was a little bit of conversation between our city attorney um of 2020 2020 so five years ago um looking at that JPA amendment um it was worked on with TD
and I believe that some of the old language and maybe that's been revised by now was by another um attorney Ruby Bob is it Bob Ruby maybe Roi Bob Roby No. Are you PPE? Oh, no.
Ruby. Um, so there have been some discussions on this. As you said, it's been discussed back and forth for years now. Many years. Many years. Um, and at that time, I don't know how that's changed from now's draft back from five years ago. There wasn't anything quote unquote illegal.
The attorney did review it, but then it was voted upon, I believe, at that time, and it didn't move forward. Um, so you know, our city attorney can definitely get involved, but then the city is going to be paying that cost. Well, I I I don't think we should get our attorney involved until the fire
district actually has a work session and they can talk through that. That to me, I just can't get I agree with you and that's why I've been trying not to reach out to him and what I did reach out to him for just specific questions so I could clarify with you guys about the collections and
that yes, it's 100% we can do it that way. Um, can we get a quick consensus from from you guys? Are you okay with recommending that they do a work session? Are is everybody okay with that? I'm good with it. Nick, you're good with it? Yeah, as long as as long
I'd like to I'd like to have some I'd like to hear what comes out of it. Like be nice to have it recorded or available to see what we'll talk about that. I just want to get that this Yeah. Yeah. But as long as it's asking the board to right as our take some serious steps and move along and try to get some
of this stuff worked out instead of just let put it back on the shelf and five years later another council and fire board members are doing the same thing, right? George, I assume you're okay with having recommending a work session. Yes. Yeah. I would Sounds good.
I would like that. I would like to at least us get back to our roots and then work our way back up to where we're at right now. I think that would be the best approach and then decide if we want to do something a little bit different. Sure. Okay. Yeah. I think you guys if
you have never had a work session and you have one, I think it might be I mean that seems like the best way to do it and maybe people get up more on the same page and people can come with different ideas for the same type of like I know you're kind of you kind of been a lone ranger on a lot of this but maybe when everybody comes together everybody will
have a different idea and you can morph it into something that works for everybody. It's just communication. And that's just how it should work. I agree 100% and it's it's okay. It's the best way to go. We'll just see how it works out. I I mean, we have a great group of guys. It it's a good
board. We got a great fire district. We got good pretty good equipment. Um, I think it's a really good value for the community and I don't want to erode that value or or the city and townships
authorities. Sure. All right. So, you guys will have that. Uh what other are there any other main points on this JPA that you want to talk about or do you want to wait to talk about that when do you guys have more to say or do you want to focus on the budget stuff or what are you thinking
George or either of you guys? I think the budget is probably the easy easier one to tackle. Okay. Probably would be. I mean I'll I'll check some notes on I think we us that are here are in
consensus that we don't want to move forward with whatever you know some of the proposals not a chance. So I think uh but I think the board the fire board needs to come together and start working on some of these issues in
that agreement. I agree. And I guess I'll just say closing, you know, the district was built as a partnership, you know, not a hierarch hierarchy and and keeping it as a cooperative will keep everybody accountable, the board, the chief, and all of us who serve the
people we represent. And this is about structure, not personalities, and about protecting both our firefighters and our taxpayers. And I'm confident we can modernize the joint powers agreement without losing local control. And that we've worked hard for
the last 20 years, you know. Um, and that's where I would like to see it. Sure. Anything else on the JPA or you guys want to move on to the budget? Nick, you good moving on the budget or you got more questions? Okay. All right. What do
you guys got with the budget here? Well, you want me to Why are they asking for an increase period? There's the $120,000 from the building that is now not going to the building's paid off. Correct. Okay.
So, so at the last meeting, I seen that we were going to have a bump of what was it 3.2%. So I asked the board, I said, "Can't we take So they're taking the money that they're not paying us and
they're putting it into the capital improvement fund." Okay. So I asked, "Can we take that 3.2% difference out so that we don't have any increase this year? Let's keep it at zero." I don't think that's a huge ask. Uh
boy, I I think I got it in three different directions. Um because supposedly the capital gains fund should be a lot higher than it is. They would like to, you know, they're trying to save up for a new ladder truck which is x amount of money. I'm thinking a
million. And I I mean that discussion it'll be more than that. I I agree. I think they're running a couple. You don't need a new truck. But see that discussion has not at all. Not even close. I haven't been there long enough to hear that discussion. And if it was, I don't
recall the exact discussion about about that. But you can buy a good used ladder truck for $120,000. And this the last ladder truck, I believe, was about 50. That's lasted Oh, yeah. They bought it
used from California. Yeah. They don't take it out to all the fires. It's It sits there. It's good to have it for insurance purposes for businesses to get a reduced rate, but there is zero reason to get a brand new letter truck.
That is huge. I you can put your tax dollars somewhere else. And I haven't heard the argument between the townships and the chief um of why they need one. I I I've heard I've heard I've heard an
argument on it. They There has been some parts failures and they've had a hard time finding parts. Okay, that's been the argument because of the age. And yeah, I think getting another used one would be fine, but I was told a used one is more like a million bucks, but I I don't know. I didn't look into
that. I I would assume they're expensive because, you know, supply and demand, but I don't I don't know. I thought I thought they said a new one was around 2 million, but I thought it was higher higher. A brand new one. I thought it was something like in the four or something. That's crazy. Yeah, I'm sure it is. But you don't need brand new, right?
Yeah, you need a different one. You don't need a new one. You need good used equipment. That's how that district was paid for. How it was built up. It was always good used equipment. How many times did that ladder go out a year if you were to guess? For actual fires. I know it's out for a lot of events, which is awesome. I love
that. I saw less than one a year. Like the last time they said they used it was for when the Q Mandarin. Oh wow. That was 10 years. I'm sorry. Wasn't it was used uh like a week or two ago. There was some silo or something that they were Yeah, there's corn bin. I would say 20
times a year that truck probably goes out 20 times. Oh, with parades and No, no, I would say you could justify using that truck probably 20 times. Don't quote me on that, but um it's it mainly is for for it gets used for a lot
of um public events. So, but yeah, I wouldn't. So, it actually gets used for its purpose like where other vehicle for some Yeah, you can use a ladder truck for many different reasons. I'm saying where other equipment would have been able to do it 20 times a year.
No, probably not. Like there is a there is a good reason to have the ladder truck and it's mainly insurance purposes for to keep the ISO rating. The ISO rating. Yes. But I would not ever be okay with getting a
brand new ladder truck for how much you, you know, you can always use it more, but if you had to be wise about using it, I don't think be more than 20 around 20, I don't know. Ask for the call volume. Ask
for the breakdown of the uh and the fire calls. It would be interesting to see what sort of parts they haven't been able to find and if that's just a sales pitch or not. I don't know. But I parts was on a pumper. Was it on the ladder truck or that was No, I talked to somebody that was running the ladder truck one day about
it and that they weren't able to get parts for that. Yeah. Okay. Difficult to find parts for cuz it's age. I'm sure it's true. The truck looks beautiful. It's been well taken care of from what I can tell and sits in a building mostly. Right. So yeah, exactly. So you're saying George, most of this difference
and I can see it here. $130,000 going into capital equipment purchases, right? Um, and it looks like they're increasing about 25 We'd need we'd have to cut the budget by 25,000 approximately to have a 0% increase. Um,
so 100,000 in the or 105,000 in the in that fund instead of 130, right? I don't think that's unreasonable, but I didn't think it was unreasonable either, but it didn't sound like Have you I had any support at all. Have you asked and see where their current for their
current budget are they over or under or what's the projection? You mean next year's? No, no, for their current budget year to date. No, I didn't ask that. They don't provide that at the fire board meetings every month
because if you come in come in under $50,000 and then you're asking for another, you know, what is itund on 30. I I can't confirm or deny. 25,002.
Yeah. I just I know on the the county park board it's totally different, but we every month we go through the bills and invoices and the budget and we have to approve every month those items. So, we're all in the know on what was done that month, how we are sitting budget-wise. If we're way behind on the budget, then we're going to have to cut
something in the rest of the year. I know we don't necessarily do that here because that ours will be huge but I don't know how okay they do an expense report which goes through everything from the previous month I don't know that necessary so bills and
invoices type okay budget or over budget and I do have a close out right here last year it looks like um I think there's also year to date in that as I can copy this for you. Okay.
Or have Josie copy it and send it off to you. So Jeff, you just asked like basically if they're going to come in under budget this year, you don't want them to have to still take this much money rather take that money that they're under budget and put it in the capital improvement fund and test tax less for
next year. Is that what you're saying? I think it's I think it's not reasonable or it is reasonable to ask for a 0% increase so they can cut 25,000 wherever they get you know fire chief and the board can figure out where that cut is
coming from. But in years past when I was on the fire department and watching the average of the budgets, there's usually a little bit left over each year. Sure. And we were paying $120,000 to pay
off that building through that through the fire district budget. And all these entities are are asking more and more money from the same taxpayers. And we sit here and we try to cut as we went line by line for our budget to keep it
as low as possible. I don't think it's any different for this entity to do the same. Do you know, George, how much is in their CIP currently as a percentage of their budget or yearly spending? I know we talk about ours a lot. Ours is around the 54% I believe 60 62 or whatever
currently, but after next year. So, do you guys do you guys talk about CIP or where's is that listed for the total that you guys have in there or brought it up at the last meeting. They use an amorization type thing. It's not called a CIP. That's why I brought up
the question because the terminology was different even though it's pretty much the same. It works the same. Yep. Right. It's an amortization schedule. So I have that but not with me. Okay. Um so
what was your core question? How much is in that? I mean are they really that you said that they're behind on their capital equipment fund, right? I mean how far behind are they? Are they, you know, is this a huge ask or are they really really far behind? I
mean, if I'm sure if you ask, they're really far behind because they want to buy a new ladder truck, but like realistically, are they that much behind as a percentage of their budget? Because most CIPs or most uh fund balances are around the 15 to 20% mark.
Some some jurisdictions want higher. Okay. I have July 31st in front of me. Don't have August in my book here. Let's see. That's September. July should get us close though. In August. Yeah. So, in checking, they
had 193,000. Capital equipment savings account, they had 144,000. Uh fire call savings account, they had 16,000. Um total checking savings, 354,000.
Uh accounts receivable 41,000. Not sure what that is. Um, so they're saying their total cash assets are about 396,000 and that was in July 31st.
Okay. And 144,000 you said in capital savings. Yes. So if we if they authorize 130,000 next year or no, it's 230,000 next year. They're doubling two like 2.7 times their account right
now. That's a lot in one year, right? Because most of their money was going back towards the payment for Right. I I just have a question to get us off track, but if the district was paying that much money per month,
but we're paying 40 plus% of the contribution. Are we paying twice? Were we getting 40% less for the building? I'm sure they worked this all out back back when they did all this, but don't matter now. It doesn't matter what bought paid for. You're right.
But I don't think it's I think it's very doable to ask for a 0% increase. That's what $25,000. And they can, you know, the board can I would like to see significantly less based on that's a that's a big increase.
What's their justification from 25 putting in 100,000 to 26 putting in 230? Just because the money was there doesn't mean I mean that I don't know just doesn't it doesn't feel right with me because people have to pay for it and if there's not a like
formal schedule and there's not a justifiable means for it. You know, it's not it's never good to text your your residents and then just say, "Oh, it's it's there but for when we need it, but we don't know when we're going to need it. We don't have a plan, you know, and maybe there is a plan and we just don't
have it, but that just seems like $230,000 going in when last year was $100,000. Eh, just it just seems like too much to me. I apologize. I didn't bring that amorization schedule with me. Uh Chief said he gave it to me, so I have to have it.
Okay. And I'll go through it and send that off to I'll probably have to bring it over for Josie. I'm having printer and scanner problems that I have not been able to clear up yet. So, I'll get that together and get that over to I mean, I guess that's their that's their decision to make, but I would I
would rather see, you know, if you have $120,000 a year of debt dropping off and you're still increasing, I I would like to see a decrease. But that's their decision, not ours. Or at least bring it back to zero where we were at last year instead of an increase.
Yeah, that's what But I think he that's seems like a compromise though. I mean, we fight hard for our taxpayers money here. I agree. I agree. And we pay 42%. So,
all you can do is bring it up, right? Seven entities. And then as far as the salaries on here, I see an increase of 4,400. Um, what's do you know what's going on with that? Is there more people employed there? Is that just a cost of
living allowance? Have you guys talked about that one? I don't remember it being brought up at the last meeting and I will definitely be bringing it up at the next meeting and finding out exactly what that cost is and where that cost went to. Okay.
But yeah, I would I would see where the current the current budget cycle where it's at because if you're projecting to be under budget or whatever. No, that's one of the things I look through. You know, this was just our proposed budget. We
didn't have a lot of talk on it. We we mentioned a few things, but I think the main discussion will be at the next meeting. Yeah. Um so, how about because I haven't been through a budget cycle. Is that it doesn't have to be unanimous vote, right? It's just going
to be a majority vote. I think it's majority. Yeah. Okay. I assume that otherwise would probably ever get past. I'm sure Mike can as a majority vote. Yeah. Okay. So, so I see line item 120 uh employee
retirement. Employee retirement as a line and then POC retirement as a line. I assume POC is paid on call retirement. Uh, so there's none being added to that in 26, but there's 25,000 being added to employee employee retirement full-time
holding not a 25 and it's staying at 25. Yeah. Yeah. So next year they're putting in 25 which is Yeah. the same as previous year. Okay. Is that is that for how many actual employees of the district are there? There is it fulltime. You got paid on calling. You
got full time. Yeah. How much? That's what I'm talking about. the full one full-time guy and you have the rest of them are all paid on call firefighters. Yep. Okay. Just clarifying is that $25,000 is that a typical or average amount for a fire chief? I couldn't even tell.
Say that again. Is that $25,000 um retirement contribution? Is that typical for a fire chief? Do you know? Have No, I do not know. And I have a lot of questions about PAR because it was wrote in the joint powers agreement. I need clarification on that
myself because I'm not sure. I was un I was under the understanding that we're still under the fire relief board through the rodeo. That hasn't happened for how long? Well, it wasn't the rodeo. Fire relief
was its own entity and every paid on call volunteer fire department has that. But the issues were that the state kept adding more and more regulation into how these relief associations needed to do accounting.
Well, I think in my personal opinion they did that on purpose because they want all that money to be shifted up to the state. So the state it puts in gets put into all the statewide fire, police, and uh public employee funds. So it's
all one. except for, you know, line items out, but it's all one big pot of pot of money that the state can invest in. So that's what we're in now. It's the state was that before me? Yes. It's been like that probably eight
eight or 10 years. Okay. Really? It's been quite a while. Okay. Because Mike, one of the amendments was saying Mike has Go ahead, Mike. um that the best thing that's ever happened for the governments
is the PARA. Before PAR, they had their own retirement system. So, and you can Jeff say this one way or the other, but um so let's say that the district we get together and we say the fire the firefighters all need a bump in pay. So,
we go from um 400 to 450. That 450 goes back to year one of whenever each firefighter started. So if you had 30 years in, it'd be that extra $50 times 30 moving forward. So every so many years, this fire district would go way
down in the hole and we'd have to Annie up to fill in our relief uh for the for the retirement for the firefighters. And so with the parah, we don't have this big huge swings. It's it's it
two two flips to the coin to it, but as far as entities go, it's been the best thing that you could possibly Okay. imagine. So that's why that has to be wrote into the new agreement because the relief association is still in the
Yeah, it needs to be updated. There's no more release association with our district. So, that's one thing for sure we need to update and I'll try to put a list of things together that need to be obviously updated and changed
on that agreement. Jeff, I'm going to ask you a candy question here. Since you were a firefighter, that uh 120-2 line for POC retirement, how do you feel about the contributions going to that? How did the firefighters feel about that? What's the
consensus? because I know retention and recruitment has been a concern. Well, one I would um I would ask the state to send a representative for our account for the PAR account for the rest of the
firefighters and see how well that is well that is go going because it's based on the stock market. You know, it's all invested into the stock market one way or the other. Um and I know that the last several years has been good returns. Um, but I would see where that
account is sitting at as of this past year. Um, but I'm a I always it's always good as a firefighter to see your and your governing entity put something in there, right? And I know that once the once once the
paid on call firefighters see this, right, some of them might just get a little irritated. That's where I was going with that question. you know, if if you guys think it's okay to compromise with a 0% difference um between 25 and 26, I would rather see some of that money go into
their retirement um versus into the capital improvement uh fund because I think seeing that 25,000 for the chief and zero for the paid on call, that to me doesn't seem morally right. Um that's a candid my my opinion. Uh, so I don't
know if I don't know if if there's if you can move it from the line item 1201 for the fulltime some of that into the other one or if we can take from or if they can consider taking from the capital improvement. I mean, you're talking about retention and recruitment. And I see that they're bringing that
trailer for recruitment everywhere. They're setting it out and trying to get firefighters. And to see this zero, I if that was me on there, I would be a little bit discouraged. Let me say a few things about it because you might not know it. Okay, so
last year's maximum benefit was $7,500 a year. This coming year will be 9,000. Okay, the fund right now is overly funded. So, we have a surplus. Okay. Okay. So, we really don't have to address it right now. maybe in a couple
years once we bring more people on board, but I don't know what the formula is exactly if that can keep it all level where it doesn't fall behind again. Um, but right now we're at funded ratio is
162%. Next year it will be 126%. Can you have the par the lady from PAR come in and and break it down because you can um get the most current information we've Well, that lady came
I have the couple years ago GRS report and I think I have um I have a couple of things that I could probably get over to you guys if you wanted more information on it, So that account is market dependent
market dependent heavily. So if you're at 126 and the market tanks 20% then you're not I mean you're barely funded at that point. Okay. That could happen. It could. Okay. And I think that was discussed in the the meter meeting that
uh Nick Peterson was at and I was there but I don't remember all the numbers. So I just Yeah. because you gave me this this I just see that vast difference between the full-time employee and the the entire um paid on call and I just I don't understand it I guess but I've only been able to delegate so much
time on definitely and I got you know a lot of different things I have to look at I'm trying to concentrate on one thing at a time but yeah this was definitely my next top two things to do was to look over this and and try to get a a grip on it. Okay.
Do we have um item line item 208 208-1 out of station schools? That's a new it looks appears to be a new line item this year proposed for $5,000. Do you know anything about that one? No, but let me just go back because I just seen something I didn't notice.
Okay. So, 24 2024 um total financial requirement for the pair was 76,000. 2025 it's going to be 206,000 it looks
like to me. Oh, reduction of financial requirement. No, required contribution is still zero. Maybe you guys can make sense of this. I'm still learning about these retirement accounts. Yeah. I I'm not sure how to interpret
that. Okay. Well, maybe when you got time, you can look into that. I know you got a big plate full. You got a plate full there. Do you know what the 208-01 is out of station schools for $5,000? And I
noticed there's a $5,000 reduction in 208-07 medical training reertification. Jeff, do you know about those? Is Is it just maybe allocating a different type of training dollars in a different category? I've I've never seen that line item before.
Okay. Yeah, it looks like it's new. Couldn't tell you. I It's a good question to ask. Okay, there it is. Hiding. Do you know anything about two item 208 in general school re registration and mileage I assume that stands for?
Yeah, there's um so if you want to become an officer and you got all these fire assoc different you know state there's some state entities but there's also just fire schools that you can go to through different fire associations. Um but yeah, it's some some are in Duth
and some are in Alexandria, some are in Rochester. So if you want to get further education, you go to one of those schools on the weekend. Okay. So it's more training essentially. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's I would say it's more for
um more like officer training. Yeah. Okay. George, in the past it had been asked by people if a full-time chief was still necessary or not and they were going to it had been asked a couple times. Was that
asked at all or dug into it in September? In August when we were there, I know there was somebody that tried to present information and the chair decided that the information that he was going to present wasn't similar enough for it to be fairly presented. So, they did did not allow that to be presented. And I
think he was going to come back. Um, but I'm not sure if he came back last month with information of more comparable. No. Okay. There's a chain of command that that everybody makes everybody go through and I guess that's that would be a dis
that'll be an ongoing discussion. I mean, that's a complicated issue right now, and I don't even want to talk about it because we just had a closed meeting um on on the chief's performance, our last
board meeting, and we have an ongoing scenario. We're trying to do a survey with all the firefighters and check morale and what they expect. And I I have no idea how that survey is going to come back. Um, are we going to be able I have a lot of answers.
Are we going to be able to get the information from the uh survey? Yes, it should be public information this Yes, it has to be public information. I'd be curious to see what the only information that isn't is a
closed meeting. Otherwise, um, yes, I'll get it to you guys as soon as I get it. I expect it at the next meeting is I'm looking forward to seeing some of that data is always great to see. Yeah.
Well, it's like what we did with uh those Whisper Ridge. Yeah. Whisper Ridge, the parks and neighborhoods and we learned quite a bit from that little survey. I agree 100%. Hard to argue numbers. Okay. Yeah, we'll look forward to that.
Uh, so I'll make check marks of the line items you think that need attention. I'll ask about the motel room. It looks like uh it's 35 and 35. I'm wondering how much they actually used and or are
going to use of that 3500 this year. That does seem like a lot. And if it's required for next year and there's some items that went down. I could see why certifications are going up because we're doing so much hiring.
Um well, and I I would ask and see how much of these um of these glasses are um reimbursible through the state if there's any way to get reimbured from the state for some line item. Well, not it's just more of a
general question. Out of all the educational Okay. Um programs, how much would the state reimburse the district? Okay. Or if it's a possibility to get reimbured for some of the the uh fire
schooling. I think they talk about that in August, too. Yeah. I think it didn't they say there was budget breakdown. there was like income and it was interstate funds and it was because they reimbured for uh
I think it was for fire one and there was also was there another thing that was also reimbured by the state too for yeah and I think they said if there's funds available they get reimbured if there isn't they don't get reimbured prorated by funds available over the total submission yeah it was something like that they
talked about that in August for the uh EMT certifications probably not to exceed a certain amount, but then prorated if the full amount is claimed. It was something like that. It'd be nice to have a recorded meeting
we could go back to and listen to. I'd be curious to see about that um AI thing that will transcribe. Yeah. Well, even just for a resident to bring one in just to get information.
Well, rather than going around, I just rather have the body take responsibility for Agreed. transparency and making the public aware of what's going on. That's their job. Yeah. They're using public funds. It should be public record. Yeah. I I don't know what the argument
is there, but they have they have increased their software support number for from 6,7500. Maybe they could use some of that money for a recorder. I don't understand why CAD would go up 25% in a year. Yeah, Josie,
question. Do you receive I've never once seen the minutes for the fire district. Could we uh would it be possible just to get them as an attachment that way they for agendas because it's kind of relevant to the uh uh like at the end of our city council
our committee reports have it be a part of that that way the public could then it' be preserved so that way the public can have ability to see it. How many correspondents like our our agenda packets include like the police reports and stuff like we get
that in there. So, couldn't we also have the fire meeting? Any other stuff? That way it then becomes Yeah. other communication. Yep. Yeah. And could we as soon as you get that those meeting minutes, could we
post them in city hall something? Yeah, I know we're not required, but if it becomes part of the agenda, then we are required. I I would love that. I would love to see the minutes definitely and the agenda. Um because it
is the city's own fire department. I'mware. Oh, sure. They would have to get next meeting. Yes. Are those final or they would have to be approved because
there could be adjustments to them. So the ones I got um after the last meeting would have to be approved at the next meeting. So yeah, they would be a month out. So draft that you get. I got meeting minutes for August like a week after the meeting. So it have been the unapproved.
September 18th. Yeah. Yeah. When I asked about getting them posted, they they weren't posted anywhere. Correct. Was the response I got. Are they required to post them somewhere? H maybe at the meeting location.
Would that just be the meeting location that they be posted at? the date, but that the the place of the meeting would be where the agenda and minutes would be posted at.
Okay. Well, that could be a question for next meeting. It might be at one of the I don't there's any community access to the fire stations though. Aren't they RFID keyed? Well, I don't know. I guess I I don't
remember meeting minutes being posted in the fire station. I'm saying like all the doors are locked like without RF building. If they are posted inside, you would have no ability to access them as it's not publicly available then. Yeah, that's a question to ask. We have asked I think people have asked that question before and I don't think I've ever heard
an answer. I asked and it it wasn't posted was the response I got like okay I asked for the agendas beforehand to be publicly available and the meeting minutes after be publicly available and got knows okay
minutes yeah I think that'd be Okay. What about the agenda? Did Did we already say that would be okay? So, when we received the agenda on Mondays, can we post that
as a city? I don't I don't think we should do that because then people assume that it's our fire department only and we already have that issue because it's called a Sani Fire District and people think that we're responsible for everything that they do when we're only 17th of the district. I I don't want to put their
agenda with our stuff. I don't think that Yeah. But the average in this in the nation is every major city is has their own fire department. So we're a little unique. So you still got to fight that up uphill battle that were blame the county
a joint agreement. Yeah, I've I've heard that county Yeah. Ice handing county firefighters the whole time I was on I don't know if you're ever going to get get out from underneath that thing. But um I don't Would us posting the agenda
really do anything? Yeah, because the ability to like Why don't we just ask them to do it? Ask the fire department to do it. I did. Well, maybe we got to keep asking. Well, that's what I'm saying is I don't want to go and give them more powers and stuff when just telling like for me,
just me or like a a taxpayer like what's going on, you don't get to like you don't get to know. That's that's insane. That's their job, right? That's a fire district. That's their job to make this stuff. Why more powers and get further into the JPA when there is no transparency,
accountability for the citizenry? It it it it does seem to me even as a board member that information doesn't flow freely through the district. It just seems like that to me too. I I I trying to find a solution to that to make it
as accessible as possible. But between the push back and not being able to figure out a way to do it, I mean, I get the standard I get the standard answers. We don't have the resource. We don't have I talked about offering our our building to be used and then I know it was like well then city staff would have to open
it but if we could get authorization for the chief to be able to ask access access the building which I would assume I would have assumed he already had access to it but make it so that him or another board member has access to the building so that way they can use it for recording and transmitting of meetings.
That's a fair idea. to work. My concern if we were going to do the agenda thing would be two things. One, if you start doing that, you will want to continue on with it because now the expectation the public might be to that you'd always do that. So, just another
thing to add to staff. Um, the other concern though that I would have, which is probably bigger than that one by far, would be what if they amend their agenda? How would I know they amended it? Now I have an an obsolete agenda being posted. Like here we have control when we um we might thought we had a
final agenda. We print it. We put it in here. We put it out there. We put at the post office. We put it over here. And then we make a revision. Something came in. We pull it, pull it, pull it, pull it, and then put all new ones out. So it'd be very difficult. And I would feel troubled if I had an agenda out there
that wasn't correct because I don't have that great communication line of like getting to me if it was amended. Do you know what I mean? If it's just on other other communications, I mean, you don't have purview over what the agenda is. You're just relaying what we've been told the agenda is. Yeah.
But I think that the perception would be if we post an agenda for a meeting, we are verifying that this is the accurate meeting and I wouldn't be able to do so. I would probably I would need to have like a disclaimer on there. I think the minutes being posted on our agendas, the approved minutes, that's never going to change. So, nobody can
feel like they're not after the fact. I I think that's a great idea, but I really think it'd be trouble getting their our their agenda posted in our stuff when that's their literally their job. If they don't have time to post an agenda, I don't know what to tell you. What else is getting kicked to
the c kicked to the curb? I I I just don't believe it. Well, I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm just saying something. Yeah. towards making it so that like if the public want to see what the agenda there's a venue towards getting it versus right now unless you get it through email you have no ability to know what the
proposed or real agenda is. I mean maybe that's on all of us to talk to the other um fireboard people on the fire board and hey we want the you guys to post these agendas and we think it's beneficial for everybody for this reason. Maybe that's on us to talk to all them and demand the fire department
does it not us. That's where I'm at with it. I mean, that's their job. They're getting 800 or proposing $84,000 from our communities around here and they won't even they don't even post the agendas or the minutes or the budget or how it's derived from the consent of the
govern and they're taking away the consent by taking away accountability and transparency. Have you have you asked them and got an answer where they're posting and stuff like that? I I asked directly and wouldn't was not given an answer on both the meeting minutes and the
agendas and they said we email out the agendas. I know for the public to know what the agenda is where would they find it being posted and I don't know what the exact verbiage was but basically it's not correct. So there's no way for me not being at a meeting to know what's going
to happen ahead of time and what happened after the fact outside of the meeting is which might be a sheet of paper but you could have a 4-hour meeting only actions taken not who discussed what what was proposed what was shot it's only
so on the fire district's Facebook page even or or their.com page they don't post the on their website they I'm looking at it right now they have the fire station locations and then a schedule of the dates, locations, and time of the meetings.
Yeah. Which is ridiculous because then that's zero transparency. How can a taxpayer who pays into the fire fund even know what's going on inside the district? And yes, that needs to change. Um I couldn't know until I started attending. I went to four meetings in a row, but then I missed one. I want to
know what happened. I have no way to know outside of this discussion, but I received no agenda. I don't have access to the meeting minutes. I don't know what happened in September outside of the little bit you I have the transparency there is it's
so hard I mean I've had a conversation you've had a conversation you've had a conversation and it and I don't understand why the board as a whole doesn't want to come together and have as much transparency as they said it's as possible
an unbearable cost in in in manpower and like just straight up cost which is why the offering of usage of our our building when it's not being used then I mean manpower is minimal and the actual cost of YouTube is zero minus
a cell phone bill if you did not have a cell phone bill already but which is in the budget right but so yeah it's I know can't we I I know my outside thinking was there's a lot of firefighters maybe somebody's spouse or a firefighter
themselves would want to take over that respons responsibility to be able to bring out more transparency and be able to post this stuff. I mean, it is quote unquote it isn't a volunteer a true volunteer fire department, but they they
like to use that name loosely. And can't they find somebody to get more transparency out there? There's a lot of people involved in a fire district and the chief keeps saying he doesn't have the resources or help. Are these confidential files that they can't go
through? I mean, there's got to be a way to be able to get that information out without having that excuse all the time. The fire board just needs to nut up and tell the chief to do it. Have you had anything from your other board members as far as frustrations
with access information? Much like you guys, we just get the the unapproved minutes. I don't know that we ever get the approved minutes, but we always get the unapproved ones after a day or two. The chief does a good job at
getting out the minutes. Um, but no. Well, I think just taking small steps and trying to get this thing moving in a positive direction. And can can I ask you a quick question,
Josie? So, does Al email you at least every month and give you email you the agenda and the minutes? I believe he does the draft minutes following the meeting and then that the meeting will be um the next location.
Good. I'd have to look and see if I actually get the agenda ahead of time. I'm not sure. So, we the city does keep a little bit of a record themselves. That That was my question. Yeah, we can do what we get and post
some stuff. Yeah, I just think that I get I get it after the fact. So, I don't I don't think that I get an email ahead of time. Here's the agenda for the meeting coming up. I think it's after the fact. I get the minutes like a day later. Here's what the agenda was. And then it's got a
fire call report. Call report. I'm going to It's okay to put you on the email list with everything that goes out to the board members goes out to you. So you can archive it for if you need to for any reason or if you send it to me, it becomes city data and then it's subject to the data
privacy practices act. So then I I do have to retain it. So which is a good thing, right? I mean if someone made a data request to me for something that happened at the fire district and said please reach out to that entity. But if I obtain the data,
then I do have to provide the data. So So what you're saying is it'd be a archive problem is what you would have to figure out a way to archive. I mean depending on what the item is, if it's like a draft budget or something like that. Yeah. It by the data
retention schedule, I'll have to keep it for x amount of time, 10 years or whatever. So I scan it, I file it. Yes. But not distribution. Just for example when you yeah you have no for distribution if requested. So data
if requested but you don't have to disseminate you have to make available upon request but you don't have to there's no requirement for distribution upon receipt. Correct. Yeah you don't but the remember the information that you were looking for from the fire district and I didn't have any of that
data. If I had it though, I would have to go through staff would have to use their time to provide that data to a data request instead of saying, "Nope, go to the fire district." Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. And it probably undo burden.
Data requests take an exceptional amount of time. I know there is hopefully something going through legislature to be able to charge. We can charge in certain instances. It's slowly getting better, but it hasn't caught up entirely. Um, it has to be over 100 pages. uh it
can't be it's if they want paper copies if you want it digital you can't charge in most instances. So there are some caveats to it but definitely not to make a city whole for what time takes.