You guys ready? Yes, ma'am. Get wrong. Yeah, I wish. Okay, everybody, welcome to our October meeting and I thank everybody for attending. Marne, would you please call the role? Council member Steve
Freriedman here. Council member Deb Gillis here. Council member Anna Richards here. Vice Mayor Don Horton, I'm here. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney here. We have a quorum. Elizabeth Jolan, would you lead us in the pledge?
Caught you off guard. Ice to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice
for all. Thank you. Okay. Council requests for deletions, additions. Steve, none for me. Anna, Deb, I have a short statement that I'd like
to do under mayor council. And I also would like to move up quas judicial to after the reports. Um was trying to find where that was. So mayor council Deb
um I guess that's after public comment. I'd like to move quas judicial for the consent. And how does everybody else feel about that? You talking about both items? Yes. Okay. Don, I'll wait to see what y'all think.
Steve, yeah, I think that's fine. Anna, what's the matter to me? Okay. Okay, let's do it. Okay, thank you. We'll move those two. Okay, Don, anything for you?
No, when we get to consent agenda and I just had uh uh probably two things at mayor and council communication, but they're quick. Okay. And for me, I have uh I want to have a discussion real quick about tabs six and seven. Not pull them, but talk about it. Ron, do you want to say
something? That's on the consent. Yes. Go ahead. You don't want to do you want to pull? No. But thank thanks for clar reminding me. Yeah. Go ahead. Under additions, I'd like to move under consent calendar the resolution
authorizing Vice Mayor Don Horton to attend the Florida League of Cities legislative conference. It's scheduled to be heard on Thursday, but since we may or may not have a meeting on Thursday, I thought to be safe, let's go ahead and move it up tonight to move to tonight's consent calendar. So, we have to consent. I say he takes
the bus and walks. Okay. My knee can't handle walking on the way to Orlando. And uh before we start, I'd like to recognize a former village manager who's here. Where is he? Is he still Bernie? Bernie, would you stand up and say hi to
everybody? When were you the manager here? Come on, Charles Baldwin. Charles Baldwin. And he's brave enough to come back. So kudos. We just want to say welcome and thank you for attending. That was 2005 2006. 2000 2006.
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very Thank you. And Ron, do you want to have a brief statement about Casey Watkins who passed away this last week? Yes. Casey Watkins is a member of the community, the voice of the Coral Shores football team, announcing passed away and they're having a memorial for him
October 21st, I believe it's 6:30 at Barley Field behind Coral Shores High School. 6:30 p.m. October 21st. Okay. All right. Get John. Um, just for purposes of uh when I read off the consent agenda, I usually read
what the tabs are. Can we call the the resolution that um that we moved to consent from Thursday for for the travel, can we call that tab 28? Um just so it's it's clear when I read it off what's what. Okay. All right. Everybody got that? Okay. Good. Okay, then ready to move on.
I guess we'll do reports, presentations, starting with uh uh Millard Leg for the park if they'd like to come up, please. Could you please tell us who you are before
you start? Sure. Well, my name is Jack Cartis and I'm a senior recreation planner with Miller Leg and with me is Lumi Fuentes and uh Lumi is landscape architect and planner. Uh thank you for having us. I appreciate it. I know um we've seen
very familiar faces and um it's been a process um but we're almost there and uh thank you for giving us the opportunity to present um another time as well. And hopefully if you guys have any questions um we'll be here and we're handing out just the presentation as well um so it's
easier to to have a copy in person as well. Perfect. [Applause] Okay. So we're going to take you through uh the process and show you exactly what we were we were up to and and what we did. So let's see. All right. Here we
go. Um so um you about a year ago we got underway with this project. uh this past summer was it would be about a year and we we went through a you know a process of collecting a a huge amount of data and a and a an exceptional amount of
public engagement um which we'll get into in a few minutes. And that whole process got us to about the month of March. when the real work happened was between March and June when we really start to hone in on what those recommendations meant and translated them into the concept plans that then
began be uh workshopped in the draft master plan workshops in uh June and July. Uh we appeared before the parks uh recreation citizens advisory committee uh in August and we've shown this plan a few times so we're going to get into some of more of the details on it today
for you. Um, let's see. I don't need to tell you about where you live. You know where you live. It's with about 7,500 folks in the community. Um, 3,900 acres uh in total. This is a 40 between 40 45 acre park
facility that we're working on here. And let's get the delay. See if that There we go. Okay. So, uh, and and again, this is a a a beautiful, beautiful park. And I think when you get in, I don't know how you manage to get
as much into one parcel of of land like you did in this particular park. And what you do with your events are to die for. I live in Keargo and I, my wife and I come here regularly for your music festivals, for and and me for the uh the
nautical uh marketplace. We love it. So, this park is doing a a great job in everything um that it undertakes. And it is a Do I have to point it back that way or Yeah. over my shoulder will work better or
there it went. Okay. So, anyway, these are all the things that you've got in this park right now. So, uh and when we started out this project, this project was uh one of the things that we were kind of told is that don't change much. And there really isn't a whole lot of
things that that need to be changed in this park. Again, adding it the the amount of space that is available, it took a lot of different kind of configurations that we could look at to try to make some of the things that we got from the public feedback fit onto the new footprint. Um, so we did an
existing conditions inventory. That existing conditions inventory is one of the tasks within our scope. We looked at every element of this park, whether it was the amphitheater, the conditions of the beach, the dog park fitness trails. We looked at the great lawn. We looked at the baseball fields. We looked at the
multi-purpose fields and the softball field and the marina and the trailer parking that was out there. We looked at the pickle ball complex, beautiful, beautiful new pickle ball courts that are here. We looked at the fitness elements, the pool. We looked at the playgrounds. We looked at the uh
maintenance area. Um the multiple maintenance areas that we found out behind this uh uh building here. Um we looked at the tennis operations and the volleyball courts. And uh and it was a you know the we have a a thorough exploration of that within the master
plan itself. We give you a rating. we give you some uh some information on on some of the areas that could be improved, but for the most part, great job on on what you do. Probably the most important element of what we were engaged to do involved public uh
engagement. And you know, one of the things we as planners look for is public interest. And you have it in spades here. When you look at these numbers that 860 surveys were completed, that's 12% of the population responded. We
typically get about 1 to 2% response rates. So you're the interest is fabulous and especially the 727 of the statistically valid surveys were returned and another 133 in the open link surveys uh came in. So this was a
really remarkable findings. Um and from that we were able to prioritize what it was that the survey uh respondents wanted to see the most. And you're going to see a matrix in a in a minute of how we get that all reconciled. But everything from it, it led with
enhancing the beach area, adding butterfly gardens, it went to adding food services, it went to additional walking and bike trails and on down the line um until finally at the end of the enhancing the marina operation as well, the the the marina areas. Then we did
stakeholder engagement and stakeholder engagement kind of they overlap. The stakeholder engagement were the different elements from the parks uh advisory committee to the park and marina staff to the program instructors, the youth sports groups, the civic groups, the organizations that use this,
the school groups. um and we did workshops and and they also participated in those surveys and we interviewed you all as members of the and and I know there's been some transitions in it and I know uh uh you know I got a chance to sit with a couple of you so and and
enjoyed that feedback very much. Um the stakeholder engagement there was uh in stakeholders there was about 148 individuals that attended the various workshops uh that we did with uh each of the different groups. Um uh in addition to that survey um those nine categories
of of uh of of actual stakeholders are broken down for you on that there. So this is what I really wanted to get to because this is where we were able to take and reconcile everything that we learned from those stakeholder meetings and from the survey data. And to do
that, we did a prioritized matrix, a rating scale that gave first priority three point, second priority two, and third priority one point. We gave three times the rating because there was about five times as many people took the surveys as those who participated in the
actual workshops and in the in the stakeholder meetings. So, we gave those the the survey uh three times the weight for each of those priorities. And what you have here is then a statistically uh uh you know valid way of looking at the prioritization that we got from feedback
from you all and as well as the uh the the people in the community. So and that's what we use to prioritize the projects that Lumi is going to bring you through here in a in a minute or two. So uh in fact I think I'm going to turn it over to Lumi because you are familiar
with this part of it because you did the majority of the work on it. So there you go. All right. So, I just wanted to highlight um you know, we do take into consideration ongoing projects um and we were kept in the loop um throughout the process of these. So, um starting with
uh we looked at your pickle ball complex study that had started um prior to to us commencing the master plan. Um and then uh also the pool resurfacing, shower, and locker rooms improvements that I know that that's um currently ongoing. We've seen the latest plans for that as
well. um and the playground improvements as well. We've been very involved um and helping and assisting and kind of setting up the what what the playground area um should look like, especially since that was kind of re one of the recommendations that we did in in the
master plan. um as well as the school board um the village partnership on the baseball field. We are aware of the current plans um that was shared with us um and we we discussed it early on um and that was kind of share the latest
plans that they have on board uh recently with us um probably back in in June on that. But so from all that and there we go. Okay. Now, I'll describe a little bit of what our recommendations
are and we really looked holistically at the park and where areas of opportunities could be and enhancing it while still preserving the beauty of of Founders Park. So, one of the first um items really would be um the entrances.
Uh, one would be the south entrance which will be uh dedicated to the marina and the maintenance um kind of entrance for for all the maintenance on on the park and and for public works. And then uh the second entrance, which would be
really the main entrance currently, expanding that and having a dedicated lane for residents, um as well as being able to have that staffed on the weekends and kind of automizing it during the the weekdays um for for people to engage in and and come in with
a with a card for that um or read up read plate. Um and then uh number three we have the multi-purpose fields and upgrades to that. Um we have two options for that. If uh thinking of the future for the baseball field and if that's um
if that becomes true with the artificial field, we will uh remain our multi-purpose field to be grass. And then there's a second option where there that could be a potential for artificial artificial turf on that area. Um and that would help with the practice um
practice areas and expanding the time um of of practice um and usage of the field in comparison to the downtime of maintenance for the field. Um again those are two options for for that. Um and that is we have the information to
kind of to provide and and use of guidance depending on how the baseball um coordination kind of comes from. Um the other uh location would be really an arnesium which would have um a covered roof, no no enclosed walls um especially
with with the heat here. Um and the keys which will have two basketball um courts um which just we kind of relocated um to to uh to that new proposed on number four. And then you would actually have
um eight new pickle ball courts um in that location um including bleachers and and it's all kind of covered. And then a proposed uh hard um like just regular sand volleyball courts, hard surface, not sand for the opportunity for the
kids um and and the schools to kind of be able to practice on that. And that was one of the needs that kind of came up from our stakeholder um discussions as well. Um, and then, uh, in the future, in the far future would be the opportunity for this community center to
kind of be a little bit expanded into more of a recreation center um, where you will still be able to host offices on on the top, but you would be able to have a full indoor um, gymnasium inside um, for for more programmings for the kids or for various different
activities. So, it'll just be more of a com um again continuing with the flexibility of the space inside. Um and then we also have um additional parking in in these in this area to help support these um as well as um kind of looking
at the service back uh back area for that. Um, and where the current maintenance area is in the back, we're proposing a bit more trails and a better connection with the preserve next door as well. You also looked at the marina
and the reconfiguration that could happen in that area um by just allocating the actual spaces and the storage kind of being um a bit reconfigurated on that. Um and then uh
in the in the beach area we uh will be the sand volleyball would be in place. Uh the playground is just moving switching locations and then the restroom um would be mo uh upgraded as well as for storage space on there.
Um and then in the top corner on number n I believe it's number 19 um having an area uh for a maintenance um location for storage that would uh be able to help also with with parking. I do want
to highlight some of uh the sustainable practices that we want to continue having in this plan. Um, and that comes with uh the parking spaces continuing to be gravel um as well as any upgrades to to the amenities to to continue being
solar solar lights. Okay, I'll walk you through through the phasing on this. In the first phase, you would have the areas of the the entrance, the main entrance being expanded and then the beach area, um the
playground, which is currently in in in in works as well. there's a grant for that um as well as um as those areas and I'll explain a little bit more um they're coming up and we'll show you everything that's in the in those
phases. In the second phase, you would be able to have um u your your field um the re renovations to the fields and then um as well as um the the parking kind of area to that to service that. On
the third phase, we would have and and the secondary entrance would come into to that second phase. On the third phase, you would have the ma you would be able to have um the switch of the maintenance areas that are kind of all over the place right now in in different storage containers to one dedicated
space and then opening um up the current back room of of this community center to to actually have the Aasium be back here. um and more trail spaces as well. Um as well as the marina and the reconfiguration of the amphitheater
would come in in the second phase. Forgot to mention that. And then the last space which this would be 10 to 15 years would really be the community um uh center and if if we could expand that in the future.
Okay. So this would be phase one which is 1 to 3 years. Um and this would be your the playground is shifted to where the current sand volleyball is. Um this helps with the ADA um and inclusive
playground that's that's part of the grant for that. Um and the safety of the kids too. They're still in the beach, but it's a a little bit more um kind of secluded. also has nicer it has an improved tree canopy in that location which kind of helps us with natural
shade instead of our you know just having uh shade canopies on there. Um as you can see the volleyball and then just expanded kind of beach area with some two tikis as well as that restroom out there. um and the pavilion uh expansion.
Um whether it's for storage that's needed in that in that restroom or um for a potential um any other potential areas that they need to service uh the beach area if it's for rentals of kayaks in the future
or even a concession stand. But it is a flexible uh storage space for that as well as some additional parking um that you have. Uh let me see if I could show it right there. And then your your entrance is your your main entrance will be expanded uh again to provide two
lanes. One dedicated for residents and the other for for visitors as well and with the technology of of of plate um reader. Okay. So part of your second phase, which is years four to six, is the
improvements to the field up front. Um, as well as your secondary entrance, the reconfiguration of the marina just to establish a better flow um for for the trailers to be able to back up as well. And then and the parking spaces to kind
of be more monitored better. and the back house of the uh amphitheater because that is one thing that came up was just the when we have events if that area in the back could be fixed up where there's parking and and the drop off could happen of the equipment and help
that um flow better back there. Um and again um we improvements to the driving range in here as well and then a putting help support it with like a putting course um in this phase in the four to six years.
Okay. on your sec third phase which is your seven to 10 years. Um, in order to do any of the recommendations of having additional pickle ball courts or or kind of fixing up that back area of the maintenance, we really would need to
relocate some of that all that maintenance storage um area that's used um back by the back of the community center and move it to right next to um the up the area that's kind of emptied out on the believe this is the south of
the of the park um and right next to the to the village complex and this area we kind of we went back and we relooked at it to try to conserve as much tree canopy that's out there. Um but with this layout would kind of help as well making sure the maintenance building is
able to have enough storage um for the equipment to be stored properly and if there's overflow parking could be used as well by the park in that in that location. [Music] As you could see, I I do want to highlight the nice there's just trails
right next to the preserve and being able to have that connection because one of the things that popped up was um that kind of came high was the butterfly gardens or just natural spaces, but you do you have it right next door. So, as long as you have that more a formalized
entrance to it and that continuing um to use the next door property would be be great with ascented um trails and the flow and the connectivity of of of be people being able to walk around the whole park.
I went too far. There we go. Okay. And then the last uh phase which is phase four which is 10 to 15 years um looking ahead if the possibility of this community center which is the only indoor space that um
actually is able to host um the programs and take the kids could take shelter or anybody who's using the parks at the time of a storm or lightning that happens in the park. So, um it would be great to have maybe pro possibly a twostory building that will help support
a gymnasium on the bottom and uh again an offices on on the top floor or multi-purpose rooms to support these programs that are offered here at at Founders Park. I just want to highlight some of those faces.
you will see that uh a lot of the the actual improvements um are lighter towards phase one and two and then you you do see um bigger kind of improvements happening in and phase uh three and four to give the the time for
the village to kind of plan ahead for this and look at funding opportunities for these as well. Okay, the first space um would be approximately and this is um in today's in today's currency numbers would be
about um 1.1 million um and that includes your your entrance, your your putting green, your beach area, uh expanded a bit um as well as renovations to your restroom, which is one of your your oldest buildings here. um and
renovated and expanded shelter as well as the relocated upgrades to the playgrounds which is currently in in for a grant. Um and just the artificial um turf just a little uh piece in the driving range that would that would
cover phase one and phase two um it ranges from 1.8 8 to 2.5 uh million and that depends on the option whether we maintain the multi-purpose field grass and we just improve what we currently have which
means we will be limited to what is being able to what sports are being able to host there and the practice times. Um, and the second option would again would be uh whether we do artificial turf that we would be able to serve um
we would be able to have kind of more practice um fields out there for that as well. Um and the entrance the the south entrance to the main entrance as well as the amphitheater backstage parking and the marina and parking dock office
renovations. Okay. Phase three would be the maintenance area. The relocation of all that concentrated the airium. Um and again this is just a covered roof. It's not enclosed. Um the two volleyball
courts um hard volleyball courts um for actual competitive sports and then a multi-purpose um path connection and an an entrance to to the preserve area next door. So that ranges from approximately
7.2 2 million. And then our last space which is 11 to 15 years um would be the community center, the service drop off and that additional parking and that ranges from um 11.8
million approximately. Now this is uh 15,000 square ft. Um it would be approximately 15,000 square feet of of an indoor space um to serve the community. Okay. And in total, these are kind of
the ranges um if with including uh contingency of annual 5% annual inflation rates and 25% contingency and 30% um contingency on phase 4. These are kind of the
numbers we're looking at um ranging in total for everything in 15 years would be if if we strive for all this again would be 22 million. I do want to emphasize that this is a guide. This is a plan for the future. We could pick and
ch pick what would be applicable. It's 10 15 years from now. So things change. So we would be able to look back at this plan and and make our you know and and implement these for CIP at the time um that the years for CIP budget come in
place. So this is a guide really and it's a master plan to to think big for the next 101 15 years in the future. Okay. So, looking at funding strategies, um, we took a look at your CIP, your user fees, and grant opportunities in
the future. Um, and and making sure that there are different options to look at this as well. Um, currently we average about 2.3 million annually, which is 327 per resident on parks and recreation
capital improvement plans. Um and these include all the existing um village reserves, future taxes and user fees on that um for that. And then in the in the following 1 to 3 years we are looking at
one from the from our from the master plan if we were to implement different phases of it you are looking at 1.4 4 million um just in the the first one to three years. Operating cost you average out 2.7 um
million annually which is 372 per resident on that. So we do have to take that into consideration because any improvements that you do you always have to think of our operations and and the cost of maintaining these in the future
and personnel as well. and user fees right now um you kind of generate about almost 800,000 um coming in and I would say if we really look into all the recommendations that we're doing if we expand with an
aonasium and kind of provide a couple more features to the park you could potentially look at 1.3 million of of user fees coming in um especially if you expand an indoor space um for programming as Uh there are a lot of uh grants out
there and we have a list um that would be able to be applied. There's a about 20 million uh of grants out there available uh for parks um I would say and and and different components of that. Um, one great thing is, you know,
the combination of local, state, and federal funding. Um, grant stacking. I know it's a practice you, the village actually already does cuz we're getting the the new upgraded playground is is through a grant as well. Um, so by all means, this is something we could apply
to these projects. And now that you have a plan in place or a guideline, we could search for these grants and be able to stack them and see what what we could plan and actually um bring into budget for for the next um phases. Okay. And thank you for your time. I
just wanted to uh highlight that, you know, there's there's opportunity for funding and and um and grants for that by all means and not having to put all uh the pressure on the village itself. Okay. Yeah. All right. Council, do you have any
questions? Deb, go ahead. Um I wanted to thank you for your all your work and um I know we sit here and go, how much money? But without this on our shelves, we it makes it much more difficult to get the grants and the
other opportunities for any kind of fund raise. So even if we don't ever do all of it, there's pieces of this that we we could and should do, and this will help us find the money to do it with. Thank you. Thank you, Don. Uh
thanks for all the work you did on this very nice presentation. Um let's go find grant funding. Yep. Steve, I Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What one of the ma main concerns that that I have on on your
plan though is the work being done on the hill. Uh that's always been considered a tropical hardwood hammock. I know through the years there's been times when village staff needed certain things done, so they went back there and made
room for themselves. But, you know, that's the last little piece of this this piece of property that really is um still, even though it's disturbed, still has a lot of really good native plants back there. So, I really would
hate to see us going and invading into that. I know that I've been personally accused as being part of the concrete coalition, but I still like to save trees, and those are nice trees back there. So, I I personally like to see that stay native. Yeah. And again, we we asked, you know,
if there's another chance or location um to to store some of this uh storage area back there. Um our observations was that you have equipment that's really being weathered down because you're you're having them exposed. So, I I understand
your your concerns with that. Um and we could work and see another location for that. Yeah. No, you're exactly right. We need to find a good place for that maintenance stuff to go. Doesn't need to be here, but I don't think it needs to be there either. But the the the presentation is nice. Thank you.
I appreciate it, Steve. Yeah, great presentation. Thank you for all the work and all the input that you gathered um from the uh stakeholders and the community. I think there's a lot of great ideas here that we can implement and I'm looking forward to moving forward on a few of them. Thank you,
Anna. just repeat what everybody else is saying and thank you very much and you guys took a lot of time to meet with a lot of different groups and we just really appreciate the all the work you did. Okay, I agree with everybody. I thank you very much. And uh I had some
questions that I never got the answers to about who took the baseball field out and who took the marina out of your design and I never got the answers. So, I'm just going to let that go for now. and I do appreciate everything, but you know, this is a wish list. This isn't,
you know, like I said, it's it's a lot of money. We better have a big piggy bank, you know, to do all this stuff, but there you guys did put in a lot of time and effort, and I do appreciate it. So, thank you very much. Thank you. I had one followup which you reminded me of, sorry. That's okay.
Is that um Yeah, I I don't know why you weren't included. this whole thing was including our other parks that we have available because that's some of the the weight of what goes on here could have possibly been spread but we can do that in the future.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Ron, do you have anything you want to say? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Aaron, I believe you're next. [Music] Good evening, council. I'm Aaron Cutler.
uh construction management consultant for the Florida Keys Aquatic Authority and I thank you tonight for allowing me to once again provide an update. Um I'm going to be brief with my update, but this is probably one of the most important months um of updates of the
work ahead. Um so I'm going to go through that. So, you'll notice from our map that little red dot, everybody who can see that, we're quickly moving from where we started at Snake Creek Bridge up through the work zone there. Um, we're almost
out of that pink color crossing over to reach, you know, the next orange is basically Woods Avenue. Um, so with that, some important updates. We I actually have a little bit more pipe that got updated since this agenda. So, right now
we're looking at 21,48 ft of new steel transmission drinking water pipe that has been installed along this project since we started back in March. Um the current crew is currently just north now of San Pedro Church. Um
we're nearing Plantation Keys School and Woods Avenue. uh Woods Avenue. We're estimating, we did a a projection on Monday. Um based on the footage, materials, and everything that's in front of us, we're expected to be at Woods Avenue on October 22nd. Um and
then Plantation Keys School, the should reach it by next week. Um and just so you guys know, we've been meeting with the community, law enforcement, schools, the principles. Um we've been we started this with um with DOT and law
enforcement back in May. We've continued to we we've really increased those meetings now that we're so close. Um Plantation Keys School have been really helpful um with us and getting our plan together. Um but we we've had recent meetings with them. So they're fully
prepared. U we have a lot of materials that are being provided to the schools to the parents to just get everybody ready. Um, I'm going to go through a little bit more specifics of that here in a moment. Um, we also have been meeting endlessly with DOT on getting
just every little detail ironed out on this new plan. Remember, once we reach Woods Avenue, um the normal traffic control that you guys have been experiencing where it's just um one southbound, one northbound. Once we
reach Woods Avenue, just because of the highly congested volume of traffic we have in the schools and getting the buses in and out, we're switching to make sure during the daytime that we have an additional northbound lane along with the two southbound lanes. So,
that's going to be implemented once we reach Woods Avenue on the 22nd. And I'll I'll go through a couple more details on that. So, um, basically our work zone keep I think one important thing to keep pointing out because everybody has the,
um, experience back in March and April when the directional drill for Tavern Crossing sat there for 3 months and didn't move and traffic was a really difficult situation every day. The one bonus we have this time around is that
work zone is can be 1,000 ft to 3,000 ft depending on what the side streets are within that zone. But it moves like every 3 to 5 days. So that it's not stuck in one spot. So as one intersection may be affected, which I'll step you guys through some of it. It's,
you know, by within 3 to 5 days, we're moved off that intersection and we we move forward further. Um, the other thing to point out, I think it's later on here, but we've been having really, really good coordination with law enforcement, Monroe County Sheriff's Office. Um, in our plan, once we reach
Woods Avenue, we're going to, um, deploy up to four additional officers at key intersections just to make sure local traffic can can move through while we're trying to keep the overseas highway traffic moving as well. Um, and just a couple other reminders on
this. FDOT does in some areas they're going to restrict the lefthand turns through the work zone. Uh, and we do have some FDOT blackout dates. One I want to point out, um, FDOT has been supportive of us um, gearing up for
Fantasy Fest, which is going to be, I think the highest volume we're predicting is the Thursday and Friday before Fantasy Fest, which would be October 16th and 17th. Right now, our contractor is going to have everything prepared as if they have to get off the
road, but if they're allowed to install pipe through the 16th and the 17th, we're going to hit our dates that we're projecting to be in front of the schools. And part of that, without getting into all of it, is some of the coordination um with Plantation Key School. They use Gardia to get parent
pickup drop off through that zone. And we want to try to hit the Palm Avenue, Royal Poniana intersections right on Veterans Day holiday, November 11th. And if we're able to install pipe through the Fantasy Fest, those two days, we'll hit that just perfect. So that's what
we're targeting. FDOT is supporting us. But if we get a big volume of traffic um for Fantasy Fest on the 16th and the 17th, our contractor will have to remove, but we have a plan in place for that. And then the boat races, which are November 3rd to the 9th, that's already
solidified. There'll be no, no work. So everything will be off the road for that week of the boat races. There it goes. Okay. So, these are some of the key intersections that we're coordinating with the community. And I just want to show you guys down at the
bottom. One of the things that we're um navigating through is that's Plantation Key School at the bottom there where it's mentioned and it shows the bus loop. We we're putting a plan in place. You know, Woods Avenue is when when parents go to drop off their kids at
Plantation Key School, they come out of Woods Avenue and then when that gets backed up, they continue out of Palm Avenue or um or Royal Poniana and then Palm Avenue. There's going to be a time during that school zone.
We're target trying to target around Veterans Day where the zone because there's transitions to get these lanes closed. They'll block both Royal Paliana and Palm Avenue. During that time, which are estimating somewhere around Veterans Day, we're going to be working with the
school and maybe even sooner if it's needed to allow for after buses leave the bus loop that parents southbound traffic can exit out of there as well after the um instead of further congesting up that area along Gardia.
So, that's a plan that's um in place now. We're working with the village, law enforcement, and schools to help with that. But each of these intersections, again, Woods will always there will be no restrictions. Royal Pontiana, there's going to be a couple which I'm going to show you. Palm Avenue and then when we
get up to the Bessie Plantation and and Sunrise up there, there'll be a couple more. So you can see at um one of our plans just to keep Woods Avenue and I know that's a main thoroughfare to get out of that Key Colony neighborhood and and getting the parents to be able to drop
their kids or pick their kids up. That will remain open. We're going to position one of the officers. There's already going to be an officer at the Woods overseas highway. We're going to position another officer at Woods and Gardia to help seeing if the traffic's um not is backing up too much. Then
we'll try to implement um parent traffic back through the bus loop or we'll also send them up to Palm and Royal Poniana when those are available. Now on this slide um without having the full traffic control plan up here which would confuse everybody. I want to just
kind of show with arrows um when the pipeline this isn't through the whole you know work area but when the pipe is directly in front of these intersections there's red arrows and green arrows. Green arrows kind of represent what we will be able to do and red areas are
representing what we're not going to be able to do when the pipe work is right in front of there. So, for instance, on Royal Poniana, they're going to allow southbound traffic to enter into the community there and they're going to allow northbound traffic to enter in at at those key times, but you won't be
able to come out of there, you know, and turn onto overseas highway. when it's directly in front of there. Now, the the hope is during that time, Palm Avenue for a portion of it will remain open without any restrictions, but there will be a time when both of them are. And
that's where we're going to need Woods Avenue to flow and we'll also hopefully implement some some of the um things that we're working with Plantation Keys School for that bus loop. Um same thing with Palm Avenue there. When we reach that area, you'll be able to come in, go
out, but northbound won't be able to turn left and you won't be able to turn left into the community as well. Aaron, while you've got that up, exactly where is the pipe going to be going? Yeah, let me show you. Um, without having a pointer, basically the red
portion of those arrows that you see parallel with overseas highway. Yeah, that's a pretty good identifier of where the pipe is. That area there. Correct. And and David, would you agree there? The inside the inside northbound lane.
Okay. And what we did to that because we're keeping a northbound lane open, which the beginning of this project as it started, the traffic control plan didn't have that. Um, also the pipe alignment didn't allow that. We actually
redesigned, you know, in construction, got things over, changed, you know, with utilities in the way, but just did what we had to do because DOT and the community made it clear based on what we experienced during the directional drill that it there was just no way that we
were going to get through this area without providing an additional relief. So, that's what we've worked on for months. um we're at that point so that we we will have the the northbound lane as well as the two southbounds. Um but this this is just it's a difficult area
to get through. The good news as I as I go down the rest of the way here, we're thinking we can if we get through there October 22nd, we have um you know, we lose that week for the boat races, but by the first to second week of December, we're all the way through this and we're
connected to the directional drill and then we're out of this um this difficult location. So, that's that's the goal. We'll still be able to use the old road through all of this. Yes, sir. Now, there's like this is an example where you won't be able to cross
over necessarily on on this Bessie intersection from Old Highway. And you can see kind of from the arrows, you'll still be able to turn north and still be able to turn south on Old Highway, but going across to get to Plantation from
there. And for people coming out there, you you're you know, you'll be able to turn right out of the community, but but not left. And just like people coming from the marina up there will be able to turn along Sunshine, but um that there
will be several restrictions. And that area right there, they think that's going to be about a 6 day window, but when that is is being installed, we'll have Palm Avenue open. We'll have Royal Pontiana open. and woods will always be open. So everything behinds us behind us
gets paved like that same week. So that's what I want to I want to continue to stress and I think that's what people are concerned is this isn't going to be the full area taken like during the drill. These intersections will for the most part be done one at a time.
So yeah, this this is a better um display of let me I dropped my pencil here. This is a better display of coming off Old Highway at that particular intersection when the work is passing through that center lane area. Um, you'll be able to turn out of there just
to head north and the people heading north can can go into there, but you won't be able to come out and head south. Nor will you be able to enter in from from if you're heading southbound or crossing through it because it'll be closed through the middle where the pipe is being laid.
So again, we we passed this out to the community, but it's just really helpful if people understand DOT restricts most of the areas except for key side streets and intersections, most of them that have flaggers or that have law enforcement there for people to cross
through the zone. I know that tends to create a hardship for businesses and that's some of the most, you know, concerns and complaints that we've got and we've tried to manage those. But, um, people that need to cross over to get to a business that's on the opposite side of the road, they have to basically
drive through the traffic control MOT zone, turn down a side street, turn the opposite direction, and head back. So, that's the biggest inconvenience that we have to deal with. Um, we continue to just I mean, there's a number up there. how many calls and
and we go to each business. We we talk with them. We meet on site when they need it. Um certain people have deliveries and things like that that we we help them manage. Um we're doing the same thing here. So, we really I can't stress enough how much we appreciate
everybody's patience and support. Um and this kind of everybody's seen this. This is just the installation process. I don't want to step back through all that again. And with that, that's all I I want to open up for any questions from the council. I know you were trying to ask the question, Deb. Go ahead.
That's okay. Um, when you were talking about DOT and the restrictions for um, Fantasy Fest, that is actually the weekend before the parade. Um, so is there's the, if I heard you right, there's leeway that you may be
able to lay on Thursday and Friday. DOT will let you. Yes, ma'am. what they did last year as well. Um, but this is based on volume. We have it in our permit that if traffic stages up to a certain point, we have to remove the
Okay. And and but you didn't have it for the following Thursday and Friday, which is the weekend of the Yes, ma'am. And I think the reason they do that is they measure the traffic volume. there's that rush of people to get down to the Keys the week before,
but during the week of the parade, there's not as much volume through this area. That's the numbers that they got um on why. And there's still traffic, I I'm sure. But it's Yeah, their counts are different than mine.
That That's what That's who gives us the direction though. Steve, do you have anything? Anna, I you guys are doing a great job. So, I I'm thrilled with how good this is going. Anything else, Don? Or we did what she said. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Aaron. Appreciate. Thank you so much. Okay. Now, here comes our captain who was I heard got another title today. Oh my. Oh my. I think we all need to stand up and applaud. Please. Please.
Thank you though. Good evening everyone. Happy to be back. Captain Lisa Quantero with the Monro County Sheriff's Office. Welcome everyone. I'm here to talk today about the uh traffic flow changes on Plantation Key Colony to add to what the aqueduct was
just sharing with us. Um I like I like I said a couple of months ago, I started this project a year ago when I was at um Halloween night at Plantation Key Colony and I thought, "Wow, we need to make some changes and we need to make the area just a little safer." So with that
um I'm I'm all set, ready to go. I'm going to read the public service announcement in case people don't follow social media, but we are um displaying the social this um public service announcement on our Facebook page on the Alam Marada social media pages. We're going to share it um in the keys weekly.
We're go um though every single week coming up um you'll have the public service announcement. My contact information is there. If anyone has any any questions whatsoever, please contact me and we'll I'll walk you through and answer any questions you may have. So basically this is um on the temporary
traffic pattern uh changes and it's to all the residents and motorists. This announcement serves to inform you about the upcoming changes to traffic flow in the Plantation Key Colony neighborhood on October the 31st, 2025 on Halloween Halloween night. The changes are
scheduled to begin about 5:00 p.m. and are expected to last about 10 p.m. The purpose of these changes is to reduce the congestion in the neighborhood and to provide a safe environment for our trick-or-treaters. All vehicles will remain to the right side of the cones and all pedestrians are going to remain
on the left side of the cones. I'm working very closely with Marado Public Works and uh we're going to set everything up for that night so that everyone can have a better understanding. will have message boards and like I said, all of our um officers will be present at the time um directing
traffic. All vehicles entering Plantation Key Colony will utilize Royal Point Sienna Boulevard. And I'm sure everyone is wondering, wait a minute, the aqueduct is going to block off Point Sienna Boulevard. Um and I'm going to work together with them so that they um don't have that blocked off on Halloween
night. and and at Coconut Palm Boulevard's vehicles will be designated directed to turn right or left depending on their destination. So, North Coconut Palm Boulevard um will become a one-way street and South Coconut Palm Boulevard will become a one-way street for the
from the intersection of Royal Point Sienna Boulevard. Frank, can you change to the map, please? Thank you. Coming right up. The map's going to come right up so that it can make a little bit more sense to everyone.
There it is. All right. So, this gives you a pretty good visual as to what the Plantation Key Colony will look like on Halloween night starting at 5:00. As I was saying, all vehicles are entering Pantation Geek Colony H only utilizing Royal Point Sienna Boulevard until they
get to Coconut Palm Boulevard. And then one of our officers are going to direct them to go right or left depending on their destination. So, North Coconut Palm Boulevard will become a one-way street, South Coconut Palm Boulevard as well. And it's only going into the into the village at that point. They can turn
into hibiscus, jasmine, and buga. However, the only way to exit the Plantation Key colony will be through Royal Point Sienna Boulevard. So, in other words, you're going to have one way in and one way out. The most important part is that I'm going to make sure that everyone is under understands
that um this traffic is only going to be open for residents only. Now, obviously, we can't tell people you can't go visit your friends and if you don't live in in Plantation Key Colony, you can't be there. However, we're going to allow we're going to afford people the opportunity to park park at Plantation
Key School as well as Gardinia Street parking, old road parking, and Corores. I've worked very very closely with the school district, and they've allowed for the parking for everyone to um to you utilize th those areas if necessary. Um, I'm asking everyone to please follow all
posted signage and directions for the safety for their safety and the safety of the participants and avoid distractions and exercise caution while navigating the area. And most importantly, going to ask for everyone's patience and understanding because as everyone knows, this is the very first
time that this is being implemented and I know that we're going to have some hurdles to overcome. However, um, it's going to be a lot safer, more organized, and I'm really looking forward and excited about Halloween night. So, any questions? You know, I got to give you your kudos.
She's so passionate about this and she does such a good job. We're very lucky to have you. Thank you. And I have been at my friend's house for Halloween night there and it is crazy and we're very lucky. No one has ever really been seriously injured. So, this is a step in the right direction and I
commend you. Anybody else have anything? Deb Don, thank you. A pleasure. I've been at my friend's house, too, on Halloween night. Yes. saw you there last year and I thought, "Oh my god." So, thank you very, very much for all your efforts. Sure. My pleasure. And thank you to the
planning department. They've worked very, very closely, Jennifer and Robert Matherther. Um, this beautiful map was definitely not created by me. Um, and I do appreciate everyone working together with me. Well, thank you very much for everything you do for us here. We appreciate you.
Okay. Carolyn, Citizens Advisory. There she is. Parks and Wreck. and how well I remember the chaos of Halloween over there. Oh my goodness. Thank you for helping to organize it. My report for the parks and recck
committee is we had a meeting on the 24th of September. We will be meeting again on Thursday the 23rd of October. We're a busy group and one of the topics I want to bring up is there's been ongoing conversation about turf whether
it's artificial whether it's real and I just want to say that that is not that is being ongoing considered but in the various forums and when there is a um when there is a vendor that is actually available to present the specifics then
that will come up at the proper way. So we're not not considering it. It's just that's not today's topic and the ballpark may be slightly separate from what is done in the park itself, but that's just to bring up the ongoing
conversation. Um, one of the conversations that we've been working on that I think you'll hear more about tonight um or down the road is the adjustment of the fees into the park. And so I'm not going to give a specific
report. We spent a lot of time talking about them and um agreeing with many of the concepts. Uh one of those is whether there would be adjusted fees for the residents of Monroe County as opposed to Marada. Of course, many of the people
that are in schools and in programs don't necessarily live in the village. That's one of the considerations. Another one is whether there would be adjustment on the fees for people who are renters or who are hotel guests. All of that is ongoing conversation that I
think the staff and that you will be engaged in. We've had a lot of conversation about it, but we're not in a position to make a recommendation. We support the conversations and that will be coming up. Um we do uh we have seen
the presentations from Miller Leg. One of the things we have asked is that the moving of the parks of the uh public works that that be something that be an ongoing thing that's in front of us whether it goes to some other property in the village um so that we so that
there's more place for the park to you be used rather than having the parks and wrecks things. And the next big topic really has to do with the pool resurfacing. There will be a presentation on that and the only thing that we asked was to please whoever is
signing the contract, special counsel John or whoever that there be a very firm um date of completion and that there will be penalties in the event that it is not because if it's looking like the pool will be closed between February and
Memorial Day, that doesn't mean oh gee, maybe we'll do it in several weeks later because we all know the consequence. quences of that. That is part of the report that will be coming from um from the rest of the the uh park staff. And
the last thing I want to get to do is I think I get to bring this up is I get to celebrate what is really originated in this park and that is the ownership of Alligator Lighthouse. And that ownership
is really belongs to the friends of the pool. And the friends of the pool started right over there in our pool with our master's group and various others. And so this is the ownership of the lighthouse. And then what we get to
celebrate is that on drum roll drum roll on the 13th of September was the most recent swim for Alligator Lighthouse. And that was um a a very celebrated
event. And at that event, the uh the the event was originated in 2011. Lighthouse Larry Hurl who many of you know has created some of our magnificent things here and he brought the he brought that to the attention of
us. one of our master swimmers. Um, Captain Rob Dixon is now um is heading the Friends of the Pool, which is doing overseeing the fundraising and the renovations of the lighthouse. And of course, that's all being supported by as
much as all of us can do. But here is um this is one of the most celebrated open water swims in the world. And if you just take a look at the fact that this was uh just you know three or four weeks ago and there were 320 swimmers
from 30 states from four countries. There were probably over 150 kayaks and there was of course very extensive local organization and safety report boats and traffic and everything. So, it was a
really major event and it's approximately an 8 mile swim round trip. Four miles out to the lighthouse, four miles back. And we get to celebrate that one of our local swimmers. So, if I can ask our
team to come on up, Dale, Margie, John, I want to celebrate on behalf of all of us that uh Lane Smith, one of our high school swimmers, part of our Coral
Shores local family. Also, I guess it's not taking away to say the younger brother, uh, the younger sister of Carly, who won it two years ago and has been very actively engaged. Um, actually was the very first woman to complete the
swim and this is from our local high school group. So, and I want to also celebrate her dad. Um, Kale is, I believe, has kayaked this round trip at least six times. something like that. Wow.
Two girls that have finished and uh so he was a part of the crew. And then we also want to thank coach John Olsen for everything that he does to get our swimmers up to date. So I'd like for us to uh congratulate Lane. And would you
like to say anything? You don't have to. You don't have to. That's okay. I'm sorry. That's okay. You don't have to. Um, but we would like to take a picture if we could. So, the mayor has asked come up behind
and you guys come up over on around. Come on. Let's move my chair. That way we can get the seal behind us. Okay. Not back here. Yeah. You come back here with us.
Oh my goodness. A whole bunch of them. I won't be able to get all this. Well, I'm short. Cool. Well, if I'm on a boat, you're going to be on there with me. That's right. Um, so we want to present this certificate of achievement to Lane
Smith, the women's solo winner of the 2025 swim for Alligator Lighthouse, along with her kayak supporter, her dad, and representing Coral Shores High School swim team with Coach John. So, we want to present this and would you tell us anything or somebody else can speak
for you? It's okay. Just um tell us like how long did it take to do the swim and Oh, yeah. This year I finished with a time of 3 hours 39 minutes and 51 seconds. That's very good.
Thank you very much. And it only took 13 years of training to to Coach, John. Thank you guys very much. Okay. Did somebody get a picture? I think they did. Oh, okay. Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah. [Applause] I couldn't even barely sit in a bathtub. Okay. Very good. And congratulations again. Okay,
mayor council communication Deb. Okay, this actually goes along with our consent agenda, but I thought I'd just throw it in here. We have two items on the consent agenda tonight that I didn't want to pull, but I wanted to recognize
that it's a total of $636,000 that we received in grant money. One of them's the pool and the other one's the bike path on lower mat. We also have a third item on our agenda that we are qualifying for that we are eligible.
We've submitted. We don't know how much money we'll get yet. Um I think it's important that the public knows that we're working very hard to find the grant money to help pay for this stuff, but $636,000 is nothing to sneeze at. Thank you.
Okay. All right. Uh, oh, go ahead. U on the mayor council communication that Mike Oh, I'm so sorry. Don Mike for Don. Mike, I thought you were yelling at Mike in the audience. Mike.
Um, so the one thing I wanted to talk about was uh this travel authorization that's coming uh later on tonight. There's no reason to appull that. But the reason why I'm asking for this travel authorization is because I've been approved by the Florida League of Cities to be on the advocacy committee.
Very good. And uh that is one step forward in helping me um advocate to other cities that are being disparaged in the same way we are on uh some tax dollars that I feel like we should get. It's a comment
that I've made for uh well long before I was elected for council. So, I'm glad that I was chosen to be on that committee and look forward to working with other cities to try to get uh try to get things squared away that way. Thank you. We appreciate you and you're still
taking the Greyhound bus. So, okay. Uh I guess we move to the village manager, Ron. Uh just one item. Uh I want to uh educate the public basically on the uh communications we've been having with the Kiloga Wastewater Treatment
District. We've had two meetings uh with the engineering teams uh from village vala and kar wastewater. Uh very exciting meetings with a bunch of engineers talking. Uh we've uh we've made some progress. We've asked for written recommendations from Kuga Wastewater which I've provided to the
council. It's on our website. Then we asked our engineers Wade Trim uh to do response. So you've seen the response. At this point I didn't want to have a debate or anything. I just wanted to make sure we're getting it out there. I think it would probably be advisable once we get everything in writing to maybe have a workshop where we can focus
just on wastewater because it's going to be an extensive conversation. But I want to make sure everybody knows that we I think made progress in improving our communication and cooperation which maybe wasn't as good as it could have been in the past. And uh Peter Rossco who's the general manager and I have a
good relationship. I know members of their board they had a meeting today and they're discussing the situation. we are their largest customer and so they want to work with us but we have some issues when it work out. So I didn't want want to get into a more extensive conversation just to say we are talking
we are communicating and we're trying to I'm trying to get it all in writing just so there's no misunderstandings as there's been in the past and I'll just leave it at that. Well good you know I've been on the wastewater thing for two years so appreciate it very very much. So John
anything from you? Yeah, just very briefly, um, pursuant to Florida statute section 286.011 subsection 8A, uh, governing public meetings, I, as the attorney for Alamada Village of Islands, wish to advise the village during this public meeting that I desire advice concerning the
litigation of Thomas Yates v. Alamada Village of Islands at all in the circuit court of the 16th Judicial Circuit in and for Monroe County, Florida, case number 2024-CA-479-P. I ask that we hold an executive session in November 2025 on a date and time that will be
coordinated um uh in the near future and will be noticed uh accordingly. Uh attending the session will be the mayor and council members, the village manager, myself, John Quick, and special counsel Eric Stenon and Blaine Udis. You sprung that on us, huh? Yeah.
Okay. So, you will I guess Marne will start coordinating when Yeah, we'll we'll figure out dates. I mean I to in reality ideally it would be before one of our council meetings either November 10th or November 13th. Uh but I have to confirm uh that in uh we have to confirm obviously that all
five of you are available. Um but I also have to confirm that um uh the insurance defense council is available before our meetings those days. But ideally since we're already going to be here anyway, you know, ideally that's when we would meet. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Public
comment. Marney. First up, we have uh John Weir. Thank you very much. My name is John Weir. I've been a resident of the village for 10 years. I am a retired pediatrician and the member and a member of the parks and wreck committee. And I
would like to thank the folks from Miller Leg if they're still here, especially Lumie. It was a pleasure to work with her over the past two years approximately. and they put in a lot of effort and I believe they gave us a good product and it's something that I hope
all of you can endorse but is and I realize this is only the beginning of the process but I did want to bring up a couple of items early on. One of the recommendations you heard them was discussing the possibility of artificial
turf for our multi-use fields. When they did the intake workshop for the vested interests, the stakeholders from that, they did their part, they advertised it, but it was not well attended.
And the consensus that I got from the community was that the majority of members of the community would rather see it remain natural grass rather than artificial turf. So I went out and I pulled parents primarily soccer because
lacrosse doesn't start until after the first of the year. But I pulled approximately 50 parents of children who play soccer, lacrosse, and other sports on those multi-use fields. And I can tell you that the sentiment was
approximately 4:1 in favor of keeping it as natural grass. So that's the first thing. I believe that there's overwhelming public support for keeping those multi-use fields as natural grass. The second thing is from a cost consideration. There were no bids put
out. This is purely an informal estimate, but we were given an informal estimate that it would cost $1 million to put artificial turf down on those multi-use fields. And the effective lifespan of the artificial turf in that
use would be approximately 10 years plus or minus two. Well, simple math would tell us that's $100,000 a year annualized cost. That's a lot of money. I believe that we can significantly
upgrade the quality of our turf management for the children who play on these multi-use fields for $100,000 a year and we can create a better playing environment for the children and save the village money.
With respect to the injury concerns, the increased rate of lower extremity injuries is higher on artificial turf for the four field sports that is football, soccer, lacrosse, and field hockey.
That's why I supported artificial turf for the baseball field, but I wholeheartedly support and endorse natural grass for the soccer and lacrosse fields. And I hope that as we move forward in this that you will also wholeheartedly adore endorse natural
grass with upgraded maintenance. The parks and recck committee endorsed the concept of the improved entranceways 8:1 and we improve and we endorsed phase I know it was three.
Thank you very much. You've gone over your three minutes and we have a full agenda. So 30 seconds. Go ahead. Okay. We endorse phase three, which is the area that you saw over there, which is the additional pickle ball courts, basketball courts, the arnesium. I
believe that would create tremendous value for the community. It would give the children a greater opportunity to play and even though it is phase three, I would hope that we could consider moving that forward. Appreciate it very much. Marne, who's next, please?
Next up is Ken Thomas. My name is Ken Thomas. I was a 20-year resident. I've previously appeared here in opposition to the proposed leasing of our green right away to the wealthiest 1% of taxpayers in Anglers Reef. My opposition is not only based upon my PhD
and teaching a finance at U of M and Wharton, but five decades of doing feasibility studies for private and public entities, including the US Congress. I urge you to read my September 25th Upper Keys weekly letter to the editor titled Isa Marada's green
reputation on the line. This council's 3 to2 vote to move forward with the right-of-way lease sets a dangerous precedent. I can only imagine the phones of local land use attorneys are ringing off the hook with developers, businesses, and special interests lining
up to use our rightway. Once Angller's Reef leases our public property, how can you say no to anyone else? We've always been the greenest of the green keys, the most protective of our pre precious environment and the preservers of our paradise for our children and
grandchildren. But now Marada's green space is no longer protected. It's up for lease. Instead of a sign saying, "Welcome to the sports fishing capital of the world," we might as well hang up one saying, "Public land available right ofways for rent." New York City, with
all of its problems, is not leasing out its green space in Central Park to private developers. So why are we? Everyone agrees Angller's Reef has a parking problem. But let's be clear, their developer created the problem by cramming in too many homes without
parking. And the owners of those1 to3 million units bought knowing that fact. This is their private problem, not ours. Instead of looking to us for a public bailout, these wealthy homeowners, most of them absentee landlorders,
have many private solutions. They can buy the nearby 31,000 square foot oceanfront property and every local bank would be glad to underwrite that deal. Meanwhile, they could lease space there or at other nearby parcels. Hog Heaven has extra space that can be leased on
their big overflow parking lot that they bought with no public purpose. The proposed leasing of our rightaway cannot be financially or otherwise justified. It should be rejected without further discussion. Please don't be the village council
that'll be remembered for selling actually leasing out our green space. Thank you. Thank you very much, Marty. Next is Jodi Sarah. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Jody Sarah. I'm the executive
director from Florida Bay Forever. Florida Bay was founded after the seaggrass die off of 2015 where we lost more than four thou 40,000 acres of our seaggrass in our own backyard. This loss wasn't just environmental. It struck at
the heart of our local economy, our way of life, and our community's identity. We need healthy seaggrass for clean water, thriving fisheries, tourism, and jobs. Our mission is to protect and restore
Florida Bay through education, advocacy, and community engagement. So, I'm here tonight to talk about SV 180. It takes away our control, which I will get to. Florida Bay joined a thousand
friends of Florida signing a letter in opposition to SP 180. The law restricts local government from regulating development and infringes on local home rule authority and the ability to manage growth and protect our communities.
Just a small quote from the letter. Local leaders and their residents know their communities best in Florida. Achieving a sustainable future means maintaining our greatest asset, our environment. This bill directly conflicts with your
mission and our missions. Two quick aspects of this bill. It lo strip strips local control. It blocks local governments from enforcing and adapting land use rules after disasters for up to three years and it's
retroactive. It takes away your say. It takes away our say and it gives it to Tallahassee. It also jeopardizes ongoing projects, restoration restoration projects, flood
management, storm water runoff. All of our concerns, we know them. Tallahassee doesn't. We know how to address that and we want to keep that say. We want to keep our projects that we've already fought for, we've paid for with our taxes, we want
those not to be at risk. We want those projects to move forward. In conclusion, Florida Bay is asking you as elective leaders to speak out against SP80. I'm hoping tonight that you will choose to vote to sign on to the letter of a
thousand friends of Florida or you can vote to join the 25 Florida local governments who had filed a lawsuit challenging SP 180. I'm asking you to protect our community, follow your mission, and of course to protect
Florida Bay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Morning. Next is Joe Wishmire. Need a little more room. Yes. Thank you. Joe Wishmire, Plantation Key. Mayor and Council, I am here tonight to discuss
how unprofessional your conduct was at the last meeting while discussing Crooked Palm Distillery. While I did appreciate the extra two minutes that you gave to present some of the facts in this case, you made a point that we should only present facts that council members are supposed to consider when
rendering your decision while concerned citizens were presenting these facts and concerns. One council member was busy on his computer looking up mailing addresses, some in Miami, but still owning homes near the Crooked Palm, and another getting personal information
about loyalty points only accessible by phone number. How is that information even possible and calling out two people and one wasn't even here instead of listening to the concerns? Funny how these actions were only taken on people
opposed to and no one in favor of the changes yet none of those people live near the bar. Then over and over again we heard council repeat the code is the code. If that's the case, then the section 3216J
that we kept bringing up stated that before any con any conditional use is amended, varied or altered, the applicant shall demonstrate that a change of circumstances or conditions has occurred which what made it necessary to change
that didn't happen by the applicant. the the residents demonstrated exactly the opposite by showing that the current allowable hours of operation from 11:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. weekdays and 9:00 a.m. till 1:00 a.m. Friday and Saturday.
Yet, currently the hours aren't anywhere near that. 11:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on weekdays and 11:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. on weekends, and they're even closed on Monday and Tuesday. Despite this, council decided it needed to extended the hours till 2 am. Really, what
happened to the code is the code 3016 216J. What conditions have occurred that made it actually necessary to change? Like the code states, if codes were followed, then there would not be a need for multiple variances and zoning changes
just to make a property in compliance. I remember Councilman Mark Greg stating that a variance is nothing more than a legal way to break the law. Decisions like this are what continue to divide this community. You are supposed
to represent the entire community, not just a few to help with profits. We're not arguing about the decision that you made, just in the way that you went about it. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Marne, is there anyone else? Yes, we have a couple more speakers. Uh,
next up is Alina Davis. Good evening everyone. Thank you for having me. Alina Davis, Plantation Key. If you're a member of the Isle Marada Chamber, you all got this in your monthly packet. So this is about the affordable housing
on Keargo and it states here that the minimum income for this property is 71,880. The school board just raised teacher salaries to 62,000 and change.
So my question to all of us is if affordable housing has restrictions due to our average is Marada income, how do we change that? Do we call it
something else so that we can prioritize it for our essential services such as police, fire, teachers, and perhaps even village employees that don't live in the village. They go to Keargo or maybe to
Leighton or Marathon because it's less expensive to live there. Isn't that something that we need to look into? Is there a way around it rather than calling it affordable housing that we can use our funds, our money, our people
to to get something changed? Because it just doesn't seem right that it goes we talk about the tourist industry. Shouldn't that is corporate welfare tourist industry. They're owned privately. They're owned by large
companies, the resorts. So, we need to take care of our own who do take care of us. Um, number two, freebie. Monroe County just canceled the program because they said it's a taxi service, not a ride
share. So, Richard Clark is not going to be bailing us out at the end of this. So, let's think about can we do some sort of program that we can um maybe consider assistance for the elderly in our
community who can't afford a car or who can't drive anymore or for those who are in our our workers who can't drive because they just don't have they can't afford a car. Um, next is, have we lost
the priority to explore the expanded access for a few backcountry guides at the marina and the boat ramp? I haven't heard anything about that in months now. So, where are
we going with that? And then, as somebody said, you know, Fantasy Fest parade is October the 25th, not the weekend before. And I don't care what data FDOT has, they're wrong. Thank you.
Good points. Good points. Uh Marne, anybody else? Yes, we have one more. Uh Dylan Scott. Good evening, Cal Council members. Thank you for allowing me to speak tonight. My name is Dylan Scott. I'm here tonight to urge the council to join the 25 local
governments uh across the state of Florida in their lawsuit against state officials challenging Senate Bill 180. Uh communities like the city of Naples, the city of Homestead, town of Cutler Bay, and the village of Pinerest have all joined together to voice their
opposition uh to this legislation as an attack on home rule powers. from the lawsuit. SB80 is a law that was enacted in the 2025 legislative session that represents the largest incursion into local home rule authority in the history of Florida
since the adoption of the con the Florida Constitution in 1968. SB80 purports to be an act relating to emergencies supposedly designated to assist people rebuild properties that were damaged in hurricanes. But as a
result of a lastminute amendment and in a classic example of log rolling and self-leating, SB80 goes much further, freezing all local land development uh regulations and comprehensive plans in restrictive or burdensome amendments to such
regulations that were enacted by any of the 67 counties or 411 municipalities in Florida between August 1st, 2024 and October 1st, 2027 are void AB init. initio or void from the beginning.
This egregious overreach by the state is a slap in the face to the authority granted to local governments to enact comprehensive plans that take into account what is best for their local communities. Again, I would like to strongly recommend
that the council join local governments across the state in order to preserve the right to act in their own best interest. When Councilman Steve Friedman brought a resolution against Alligator Alcatraz on environmental concerns to this council on July 27th, some of you shared concerns that the
issue at hand was not business and expressed fear of political implications and potential retaliation from the governor. Let me remind you, the people of Alam Marada
voted you to represent this community, not Rhonda Santis and lobbyist developer lobbyists in Tallahassee. Do what's right for the village of Isa Marada and join an opposition to amend SB80. Thank you, and I'm really looking
forward to the critically important discussion later uh tonight on the proposed Peacock ordinances. Uh have a great night. Dylan, can I ask you where you live? I live in Keargo. Thank you. Yep. Thank you. And may I ask, do you belong to an organization? Are you representing an organization?
I'm just a concerned citizen. Okay, that's fine. Thank you, Marne. Is there anyone else? No, ma'am. That's it. Okay. Public comment is now closed. Um I John, I guess we're moving to the quaz. Oh, wait. Well, no one said Terry. I asked if
there's anybody else. Didn't sign up? You didn't sign up. I never sign up, dude. I just show up. All right, we got to we got to enforce the rules. We can't let them talk, dude. You didn't sign up. It happens. What? What do you want? Super fast because there's no more meetings until the the first
announcement happens. Is the sign is there on the board. It's the trunk or treat that is coming here to Founders Park. It's an amazing event. There'll be a few hundred kids running around the great lawn out there getting candy out of the trunks. And then if you're so inclined and you maybe have a group or
organization, you want to put together a spooky spot, we're trying to bring back the haunted hay ride through the conservation lot over there, which is really amazing. The line goes all the way back to the the basketball courts, people signing up. So if you're interested, come on out for trunk or
treat. If not, maybe scaring kids on the on the haunted hay ride is your thing. Come on out, do the spooky spot. Get hold of Miss Annie. They're in the back. They do an amazing job making this happen for our community. It's a great event. And that's all I've got on Halloween. Now, let's jump forward.
Wrong shirt for this announcement. I'll change that up here in the next couple weeks. But, uh, unfortunately, the the, uh, toys for tots drive that the Marines typically do, we weren't able to get off the ground again this year. It's quite a process, uh, through the the Marines and
stuff. So, what we're going to do is like we did last year, we're going to bring it forward. We're going to step up and it's the kids for keys, toys for keys kids. Um, second verse, same as the first. We'll take care of Alamrada from Snapper South. Kilargo will take care of them north and uh, individually the the
departments and stuff will be collecting. So, look for those signs. Those will be coming out here in the next couple weeks. And all those kids and toys and monies that's collected stays here in the Keys community, which again is absolutely amazing. And then the last one, because there might be some soccer moms at home watching, just
so you guys know, you can plan it early. the Santa parade this year except is uh December 14th. So, put it on your calendar and call your in-laws in for the the thing and that's it. Have a great evening. Fast. Thanks, Terry. Okay. Now, John, quasi judicial.
Yep. We moved quasi judicial up. So, I'm going to read the Can I ask you that's tab 26 for 20 26 and 27, but yes, we'll start with 26. Okay. Um, we're into quasi judicial as mentioned. These are tabs 26 and 27. Please be advised that the following
agenda items are quasa judicial in nature. If you wish to comment on these items, please inform the village clerk by filling out the available signup form. An opportunity for persons to speak on each item will be made available after the applicant and staff have made their presentations on each item. As a reminder, testimony and quasi
judicial items must be in person. Zoom testimony is not permitted. These proceedings will be handled in accordance with the village code requirements. All testimony, including public testimony and evidence, will be made under oath or affirmation. Additionally, each person who gives testimony may be subject to
cross-examination. If you do not wish to be either cross-examined or sworn, your testimony shall be disregarded. The general public will not be permitted to cross-examine witnesses, but the public may request the council to ask questions of staff or witnesses on their behalf. The full agenda packet on each item is
hereby entered into the record along with the village code and comprehensive plan. Any correspondence that was received by the village staff is included in the file and part of the record. Persons representing organizations must present evidence of their authority to speak for the organization. Further details of the quasi judicial procedures in section
30-256 of the village code may be obtained from the village clerk. Tonight, there are two quasi judicial items. Again, they're taps 26 and 27. At this time, I would like to ask anyone who intends to speak on either of the quasi judicial items tonight to please raise your hand to be sworn in by the
clerk. In the matter in which you are about to give testimony, do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? The witnesses have been sworn. Madame mayor, I'll start with tab 26.
Well, shouldn't we ask the council if they've After I read the title, I'll ask them. Yes. I don't know. Uh the tab 26 is stated as follows. A resolution of the village council of Alamada village of Islands, Florida, considering administrative appeal of number PLR20230193
filed by Joanne M. Pereira, agent for Gino and and Pierre Bolognia. Appellant relating to a dwelling unit determination by the director of planning for property located at 82935 Overseas Highway, 82925 Overseas Highway, and 82929 Overseas Highway
having real estate numbers 0043650-000000 0043630-000000 and 004364-000000 on Upper Matic Key and legally described herein providing for the transmitt of this resolution to the state department of commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this resolution from the state department of
commerce. Uh council, before we begin, I'd like you to please disclose any exparte communications you may have had uh with anyone on this tab. This is tab 26. And please include uh the substance and whether the person represented any group or entity as well as the subject
matter as you best recall. Thank you, Deb. Um, way back in the original days, I talked to Gino uh supporting his project. Uh, I've talked to briefly Ross Jgo. I've talked
to to Joanne and um I talked to Elizabeth a few months ago shortly and I spoke with Ty shortly all concerning this item. Don, uh, so let's see. I spoke to Ty. I spoke
to about this item. I spoke to um u Elizabeth Jolan uh related to the issue at hand. Uh same thing with Mark Greg. I spoke to Gino and I spoke to
Tony Hammond and I believe that's I believe that's all that's all I can recall. I need to add one. Go ahead. Um I also talked to Mark Greg. Sure. Okay. Um, Gino, Elizabeth, and Ty. I think for me, Deb, I mean, Deb, Deb,
Anna, God, Gino, Elizabeth, Ty, and Chris Santi. Steve, I spoke with Gino um at his property and uh I spoke with Elizabeth who put me in touch with Gino. Okay. All right. Jennifer, you want to
start, please? Yes. Good evening, council members. Jennifer Deborri, playing director for the village of Alam Marada. We're here this evening again on the administrative appeal for the dwelling unit determination for A2935, A2925, and A2929 Overseas Highway.
The subject properties are located um within the village center zoning district. Um in December of 2023, the applicant requested a dwelling unit determination for all three properties that he owns. After some research and a couple meetings with the village, uh we issued a determination recognizing two
legally established market rate dwelling units and 3,456 square ft of non-residential floor area. After the determination was issued, the applicant requested a reconsideration. The planning director was on vacation at the time. So to preserve their appeal rights, they filed an appeal about a
week later. Staff was not able to reconsider its decision and the applicant has asked for the appeal that appeal to proceed. Staff's complete analysis of the dwelling unit determination is for the three lots owned by the applicant can be found in the letter dated June 7th, 2024 within your packet. I'll highlight some
of the points in this here. The village comprehensive plan chapter 3 housing element data inventory and analysis table 3-13 inventory of existing mobile home parks did not include or recognize the subject property as a lawfully established mobile home park. The Monroe County
zoning regulations did not allow for dwelling units without a primary commercial use and mobile homes and trailer parks were not considered residential under the Monroe County Code. The village code section 30-473 identifies certain criteria to determine the existence of legally established
dwelling units for property 1. Criteria 1 and three have not been met. Property 1 meets the criteria listed in criteria 2 subsections A, B, but not C. The village does not recognize any legally established dwelling units on property 1. For property two, criteria 1 and
three have not been met. Property 2 meets the criteria listed in criteria two sections subsections A and B, but not C. The village recognizes one dwelling unit, although the county regulations did not allow it without commercial use. There is some indication a portion of the garage was used in
conjunction with the other shop on property 3. For property 3, criteria one has been met. Therefore, the village recognizes one dwelling, one legally established dwelling unit and 3,456 square feet of non-residential floor area on property 3. In total, V the
village recognizes two legally established dwelling units and 3,456 square ft of non-residential floor area. The applicant argues that Howell's Trailer Park was licensed by the Department of Health in Florida DBPR as early as 1977. However, our code requires licensing and permits from
either Monroe County or the village. And there is a there is a significant lapse in licensing. The licensing stopped sometime in the mid 80s until about 2013. The applicant refers to an email from the Florida Keys Electric Co-op regarding the number of meters on the property. And as many of us know,
electric meters can be installed on a property for a variety of reasons. Having a meter does not mean that there is a separate dwelling unit. That is why a code require our code requires bills or receipts from the utility company. Finally, the applicant makes an estopple argument based on wastewater
connections. The number of equivalent dwelling units for wastewater is calculated based on existing usage regarding permitted uses and structures. Uses is typically calculated by using water records to estimate ADUs. There is no connection between usage and
legally established dwelling units. To succeed on an estoppel claim, the applicant must show one that the applicant relied in good faith, two upon material act upon a material act or emission of the village, and three that the applicant made such a substantial change in position or incurred such
extensive obligations and expenses in reliance on the act or emission that would be highly inequitable and unjust to destroy the right the applicant acquired. Essentially, the applicant needs to prove that an actor or emission by the village caused the applicant to expend such a significant amount of
funds that not granting them nine dwelling units would be highly inequitable and unjust. The village is unaware of an act or emission which the applicant relied upon in good faith which would support a claim a claim for a stople argument equitable estoppel after review with legal council. Staff
do not believe that the equitable the estoppel argument applies in this case. After the review of all the an after staff analysis based on staff analysis and compliance with the village code, staff recommends denial of the appeal. And I'm here if you have any questions.
Anybody have anything for Jennifer before we start? Not right now. Don, not right now. Okay, please. Okay, perfect. Um, good evening, uh, mayor and me members of the council. Um,
lucky third time is a charm. Um, thank you very much. My name is Joan Pereira from Hersha Filipino in I represent Gino and Pierre Bolognia, longtime uh property owners and residents of this community. I want to begin again by thanking you for your time and your
willingness to hear this matter today. Mr. and Mrs. Bolognia owned three adjacent part parcels as Miss Deb Brian um just stated which are A2925, A2929 and 82935 Overseas Highway. We're here
today appealing the village June 7th, 2024 letter of understanding which rejected the longstanding lawful development of our clients properties. For decades, my clients have had 12 units and third 3,456
square ft of commercial space amongst all three properties. And now the village have suddenly only recognizes two units in total with the same 3,400 give or take square foot um of commercial space. The LOU's determination is incorrect as a matter
of law, fact, and equity. It disregards the history of these parcels, which is crucial in this case, ignores uncontroverted evidence, but most importantly, it contradicts prior village actions, and ultimately violates
the most fundamental principle that should guide any public body, which is the obligation to deal fairly with its citizens. The units were legally established, and the village code requires that they be recognized. under the village code section 30-473
parenthetical B parenthetical 1 redevelopment or rehabilitation that does not increase the number of legally established dwelling units is not considered new development and is expressly permitted according to the code legal established requires the
existence of this structure prior to 1990 or that it could have and that it could have been permitted under the zoning and building codes in effect at that time. We meet both elements. Contrary to what staff report states, the record reflects that as early as
1970s and 1980s, lot 13 and 14 were operated as Howell's Trailer Park, also known as Howell's Junction. Um, I do have a presentation, but it's not a um I just realized that
if you could please help me with that. It's okay. Thank you so much. I'm sorry. What that? Yes, that's it. All right. I can see it here. I am showing you a 1977 Department of
Health operating uh permit number 44-90-77 which shows the site was licensed for six independent mobile homes back in 1977. Now I'm showing you a 1983 DBPR license
which shows four apartment units operating under state authority. Now, this is a 1985 aerial picture which clearly shows the presence of multiple mobile homes in compliance with uh code
section 30-473D2B. We also can show you written confirmation from the Florida Keys Electric Co-op that that there has been 10 separate electric meters in service at least since 1988.
um for lot 15 which has two legally established residents residential unit uh units right now um that also complies with the code section 34 uh 30-473 subsection D3A
um the staff report says that these are not bills and this cannot be uh confirmed but this is an actual email from FKC that specifically says that in 1988 there were 10 individual electric meters. Additionally, the property and
it's uncontroverted that it has been assessed based on 17.21 edus. These are not opinions. These are hard objective records from state and local agencies that directly contradicts the LOU reduce and baseless unit county
account count. Contrary to what the LOU says, these uses were permissible under under the 1963 and 1986 U. county co zoning code. The village owned summary of historical zoning shows that under 196063
zoning um it was zoned as BU2 which allowed commercial operations like a trailer park were permitted. Under 1986 zoning SC uh which was zoned as SC allowed for apartments under six units were allowed in conjunction with a
permitted commercial use. Howell's Junction was clearly a commercial operation. The state of Florida licensed it as a business. Monroe County issued an occupational license. In 1983, showing it have five employees.
And I'm showing you the actual license that clearly shows that there were commercial operations in the site that satisfied the requirements under section 30-473. The structures were not only existing but they were part of a business that was entirely consistent with both zoning
codes. The village itself recognized this in prior actions. Now the village is stopped from denying the lawful use it previously approved. Again um let's talk a little bit about the doctrine of estoppel. Florida law is crystal clear.
To establish estoppel against a government three elements must be shown. The government made a representation of material fact. The property owner relied on that representation and the owner changed positions to the detriment because of it. All three elements are
met here. In 2018 and I'm in 2018, the village approved a site plan with seven trailers and one apartment building. But there's nothing ambiguous on that. It is approved by the
village on uh for uh lot 14 and but now the village has essentially change his mind. This is a formal representation signed off by the village building official which clearly recognizes the presence of lawfulness of all units. The owners
relied on that approval and was compelled by the village to connect to water and sewer and spend significant money. As a matter of fact, the Bolognia have spent over $177,000 connecting the properties to the village's wastewater b uh system based
on the 70 17.21 edu's historical ble historically built and still built to this day. Payment was done with the understanding backed by written approval that the existing units was were lawful. Had the village not confirmed the units,
my clients would have never made that investment. The village cannot turn around and say those units were never lawful. I'm now showing you the real estate taxes for lot 15 for the year 2024 which show that for for the lot 15
there is a specific nonadvalorum assessment of 2000 um $2357.76 per year times 2 which totals amount an amount of $60,121
since 2011. 11. Now I'm showing you for lot 14, which was $1,200. There was two assessments for $1,200 a uh a year for lot uh uh 14. And then for lot 13, the village of Alam Marada also
did assessed a non adalerin uh tax for um wastewater for $768 bill twice per year. That amounts for a total of 112,000
uh and $112,28341 in special nonadalorm taxes that my clients have paid since 2011. We're not only relying on the fact that we have 17.21 edus. We're relying on the fact that we paid the village for all this
for all these years. We our clients have spent over $300,000 in connection relying on the statements of the village. In this instance, the rules of fair play mandate that the village recognize the lawful established development rights of the app since it
reassured the app into believing that the development of the property was lawful through its conduct. I want to cite the third district case of Kostra versus Miami date county which states stripped of the legal jargon which lawyers and judges have obuscated it
with the theory of estoppel amounts to nothing more than an application of the rules of fair play. One party will not be permitted to invite another onto a welcome mat and then be permitted to snatch the mat away to the detriment of
the party induced on permitting to stand thereon. A citizen is entitled to rely on the asurances or commitments of a zoning authority or if he does the zoning authority is bound by its representations whether there are be
informed words or deeds. This is exactly what the village did. They invited the Bolognia to step on a welcome mat and then then right now they're ripping it up from beneath the LO and staff report disregards aerial photos, utility
records, state licenses, even prior village approvals. It cherrypicks evidence and draws conclusions that there are unsupported by the record and contradicted by decades of history. Now staff has submitted a report that I feel the need to briefly address. According
to the report, the use was not allowed under the 1963 and 1986 code. As previously stated, the use was allowed by both codes. The property was operating a commercial enterprise that qualifies as a commercial use and
complies with the 1963 code and 1986 code allowed for residential units in conjunction with a commercial use, which clearly applies here. To say that the use did not apply with previous codes, it's misleading at best. The village further improperly states that only
village or monroe county licenses count, not state DVPR or do licenses. That position is both legally incorrect and contrary to the village own code. The village code section 30-473 essentially requires proof that units
were legally established, not that they were permitted on the village or county regimen. The state of Florida through the department of health and the DBPR is the agency responsible for licensing mobile home parks and public lodging establishments. These licenses prove
lawful operation and were issued on the Florida law in village staff. The v if village staff is saying that these state uh licenses are irrelevant. They're essentially arguing that Florida's sovereigny licensing system has no bearing on the legality of these issues.
That is both factually and legally unsound. More importantly, this distinction was never previously raised as disqualifying. And I showed you the the the uh the approved site plan in which the village reviewed all all these
documents that I'm showing you right now and they approved it. But now they decided to change again to the detriment to my of my clients. Um the village further states that the electric meters aren't proof of dwelling units nor determination of edus along along with
all the licenses presented. This is essentially saying it looks like a like a dog, it quacks like a dog, it walks like a dog, but we're just going to decide that it's not a dog. Electric meters may not conclusively be themselp proof dwelling units, but we're not
relying only on on electric meters. We're relying on again DBPR and the O license, historic aerial photos, occupational licenses, the tw the 2018 approval site plan, and the electric cooper records showing 10 meters as
early as 1988. Lastly, the village report briefly addresses the stop or argument. Again, I don't need I don't feel the need to address that. Again, I do believe that the village, it is our position that the village asked for our clients to step on that mat and now
they're ripping it off from beneath and it's unfair and prejuditial to my clients. They did not acted based on a hunch or a believe or an unfor unsupported uh argument that they could do what they did. They relied on the acts and omissions of the village,
sorry, and the acts of the village. In conclusion, mayor and council members, the fact in the facts in this case are not vague and they're not speculative. They were do they are well documented, consistent and supported by stateisssued licenses, images, utility
records, but most importantly, the village owned a prior approvals and assessments. The village LLOU attempts to rewrite history. It ignores decades of continuous use. It discounts the very licenses and all the documents that I showed you today are not relied on that
on that report and that deci decision that is not just unfair but that is legally unsustainable. We're not asking for a variance today. We're not seeking special treatment. We're simply asking for the village to honor what it has previously approved, what it has
repeatedly acknowledged and what it has profited from for years. The village can now cannot now disavow the laws the lawful uses it once recognized. This is again not just a legal question is a matter of integrity. It's a matter of
fairness is a matter of accountability. The village acted in a way and now they cannot change the way that it that it has acted. We request on behalf of my clients to reverse the letter of understanding and restore the recognition of the units that were lawfully established for decades and
recognize three units on lot 13, seven units on lot 14, and two units plus 300 3,456 ft. I do have my client here in front of me. If you want if you wish to ask questions, I may um I may ask some brief
questions. um if you feel the need, but I thank you all for your time. Okay. Before uh uh Did you want to ask something? I I just wanted to I want you to recap what you're asking for. You're asking for three units on what lot?
Three units on lot 13, which is 82925. And just give me the lot number. Three on 13, seven on 14, and two on 15. Okay. Anybody else have anything for her before we start? Go ahead. I have one on
on this site plan. Yes. I thought you said seven trailers in a building. I count eight. Am I miscounting? Is something on a different lot? I'm It's nitpicky. Sorry.
I believe there's seven, but I can Let me clear that out for So, there's eight. Yeah, there's eight, didn't it? Yes, there's eight. Is it the village approved one that you're looking at? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There's eight plus the building. There's eight.
There's eight plus the building. Okay. And you're only asking for seven. Okay. We talked you down one already. Thank you. We're asking for 12 in total. That's what we're asking. Is Is this Which lot is this? Um that's for lot 14, but I think that I
But it has the building on it, too. You need to come to the front if you're going to talk. This This has the building on it also. So that it's on lot 15. The building's on 15. I'm the owner of the three properties. My wife and I own it. Uh we bought it in 1986.
Um uh lot 13 and 14 is considered the trailer park. I never even knew actually that there was a address for lot 13 until this thing came up with the village. It was always 82929 because I only had one water meter on that property and it was through the the
water company. And then what I had to do was deed um perpetual use from one lot to the to the next to use one sewer line. Okay, that's how I found out there was two, but they allowed me to deed the usage from lot 13 to 14 perpetually. So,
whoever would buy the property would be able to they can't cut off the the sewer line, but those two lots contain the trailer park. Who is they made you? Uh the village. Okay. uh the village when when they hooked up the city sewer. Before that, when I bought the place two years after
I bought it, the state of Florida came to me and said, "You have to get rid of all the ces pits, you have to put an aerobic system in," which was a six a 55- ft long trench 13 ft wide, 12 ft deep. And I had a commercial company come in, trench it all out, put the aerobic systems and aerobic system, what
it is is these two water tanks, uh sewer tanks, which has air erating in it. And that was uh managed through a company in uh Marathon. I think it was uh Sears Aerobic System. That was the name of the company. And at that time then I had the
license from them to offer all the units that were on the property. These units have been there. Nothing's changed. I mean some of the units have been there. One trailer's been there through a Lucille Ball movie. The one old trailer there. It's like a 1949 marathon trailer. Just it just didn't pop up there.
It's been there forever since the 50s. Yeah. And it used to be a fishing camp and then it was apartments and trailer park for over over 40 years that I know of since I've been there. And they asked me for the designs and the the drawings for
the buildings, but the buildings was built before the hurricane, the hurricane Donna, which took away the uh the bu the structure down in Key West and took all the drawings. I could not produce those drawings. And he said that was one of the things the village said. You have to produce the drawings. I said
I can't. It's gone. That was way before I was born. I mean, I don't understand. They're asking for first for a few things. Now they're saying nothing exists. And even a property appraiser came out and said the building had never changed. I've been paying on all these individual trailers property taxes. It
used to have tags on each every every unit had a license plate. Then I got real property stickers where I started paying property tax. That was way before the village. The aerobic system was way before the village. That was the state that made me do this. I didn't make any of this up. And I paid
like $30,000 for the company just to trench it. And then a few years later, I had to hook to the sewer pulled up. It's It's ridiculous. And now they're saying nothing exists. You want this? And I even had a telephone pole, listen to this one, fall on one of the trailers, damaged a small section. They
refused in over two and a half years now refused to give me a permit to repair that trailer to let somebody live in it until this density problem is resolved. I think that's extortion. It was only $4,000 repair, but I can't have it repaired or I'll be fined by repairing
it without a license. I've done everything they told me to do. I've even reduced some of the density on the property. They asked me to remove some of the trailers because they thought it was a fire hazard in the middle. It used to have three trailers in the middle of the property. If you look on the drawing
there that you have, uh it shows like a little thing. I removed those three to to comply. So, they would give me the permit to fix the trailer. Then they said, "Nah, you know what? We're not going to do that anymore. We're going to wait for uh what the what they decide to do later. We're going to we're going to
review it." I tell you what, I'm out hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? This is my retirement. I'm not pleading for your guys's mercy, okay? I I I don't have a social security thing working out. I work my whole life on this. This is supposed to be my my retirement. If
you take away all my development rights, I can't sell this for anything. Think how beautiful that would be if you would sell it, somebody redevelop it and make something pretty here. I mean, it's a benefit tax dollars for the community and a benefit for site and for people that live in the community to look at.
Okay. I I stuck. I'm sorry. I've talked too much. It's okay. You haven't talked too much. We just have questions. Sure. You want to ask me any questions? Please do. Sure. You want to start? You want I just wanted I was going to ask Vince to put that site plan back up. That's I just wanted to see that site plan.
And I asked on the site plan what lots this was because this is but it has the building on it and the building's on. There is the building. There's two buildings. One on lot 15 which is commercial and residential building. That's why I'm confused. So one on 14 has a building. 13 only has
three mobile homes. Okay. And and this may I point at the picture? Of course you may. Okay. You got to answer mayor but okay. I'm just sitting here. Don't worry about me. This is lot 13. This is lot 14 right here. You look right here. I'm get out
of the way. Right here. 13 and 14. 15 is over here with commercial building and residential. Okay. Built in 70 copper building. I don't know if anybody knows copper. Yes. They actually built that building. lot 15. Um, you got one, two, three. The
water meter's here. Perpetual uh less from here all the way over to here. This used to be the tank for the aerobic system. There's a big trench here. And I had to remove these at the time of the trench. You weren't allowed to park or drive on it. And then after the the
sewer system was installed and paid for, then I could put the free units back on. That's why it's installed like this. So you knew that. Philip said, "If you remove these, we're going to give you a permit to repair this trailer." Which there's a pole right here. When they took the wires off, it fell and it hit a
little corner right there. But they won't let me fix it because of the uh density issues. This is over three years, two and a half years that they will not let give me a permit because of that. And it wasn't my fault. They took the wires out, the pole fell over. I had
nothing to do with it. Gina, I think they have a question. Let's Sure. Absolutely. It's still about the map. I understand. Three, uh, 13 and 14. 13. You said you want three. I can see three trailers
there. Oh, please leave the map up. Thank you. 14. I see a building. And I see five trailers. Yes. One, two, three, four, five. Not seven. No, there's the apartments in the building are the units. The other units.
One apartment. Okay. It was it was it was wait please. So so the that building has two units in it. Not four. There's a share department and then there's four
five and four is nine. I'm trying to come up with the number that you the 17. No, I'm not talking about water. That's how they came up with it. I'm not talking about water. They added the apartments with the trailers. That's how I got charged. I I
understand that. I understand how the water comes into that. I'm just trying to figure out the map here because the the the map we don't have is the other building that has a building the the 3,400 ft thereabouts.
Right. And two more units. Correct. Correct. Okay. That the village has recognized one. So I'm trying to get to 10 on this. I find the three for the one lot
and I find five trailers. I thought you said one, two, seven is what's on there. If there's two that is part of the building, four and four and then that gets you to seven. They're saying if you look in their conclusion
thing here on which where it the last page of their appeal the conclusion lot 14 they're saying seven legally established market rate dwelling units they're saying four apartments. So they're saying there's four apartments in this building
four apartments in this building and three mobile homes and three mobile homes. If you could just when the council's speaking if you could let the council speak sir. So there's So they're saying there's three mobile homes on this lot and three mobile homes on this lot. So they're saying there's six mobile homes, but on this picture
there's eight, right? That's my confusion, right? That's what I'm trying to say. And they're trying to say there's four in here. Can I unit in there? If it was only three, if it was three and the four inside, that gets to seven.
That's fine. I'm just trying to make this make sense. Yeah. No, that's where I was just trying to clear that. No, and I appreciate that, but something just doesn't add to two. I uh um um next
um Okay, so we're trying to lawfully establish some things here, right? We're trying to look and see how do we know there's four apartments in there? How do we I mean, I see that license that you showed me and it says apartment. Yes. Yes. It doesn't
say S. It says apartment A and it says four. Does that mean four units? Does that mean four bedrooms? And how do you know what the answer to my question is? May I show you the photo, please? It says four units on top of class
apartments and then units four. Okay. So that's a box that that box means that there's four actual units, not four bedrooms. No. For apartment. And that building was built when it was that building built? That building I'm pretty sure was built in the 40s.
Okay. So around when it was built. Which one was built in the 70s? Okay. That's lot 15. That's the other lot. Okay. So let's stick with these two lots for right now. Okay. this this state license that you filled out here, this license for the Florida State Department of Health
application for mobile home park, mobile home park housing, migrant farm worker lodging from 2013, this document, you have this in this is in your presentation, right? Okay. Uh and it looks to me that you
filled this out, Gino, cuz I see your initial under mobile home. It says five with your initial GB. It says five on here as an official document that uh you you signed. It says
five mobile homes and it says three RVs. Is this lot 134? Yes, it is. It is. Okay. So, your document here in 13 you admitted that you have three RVs. They considered one of the mobile homes
an RV. the one that used to be Lucio Ball, but then they reconsidered and said that's a trailer. That's why they gave me a real property sticker for that unit. You could ask I went down there, they gave me a sticker to put on the trailer and I and that's called an they said you that's because it's so old. It's not an RV.
That's a trailer. Okay, that's what they told me when I I did the taxes. Okay, with the stickers. So, there is just like the original six mobile homes. Okay, I got a couple of And the RVs are connected to city sewer. And then I've got a couple of questions
for Jennifer. How should I do this? I have not a clue. This is This is almost out of We still have not done any public test. I'm trying, but you know. So So I should wait to answer these questions or the city. I would recommend it. Yeah, I would too. That's fine.
All right. So can we move on to four first and if we have we'll come back to you guys. Perfect. Okay. Marne in favor. Um, the only speaker I had in favor was Mr. Bolognia. Okay. Against.
Uh, Elizabeth Jolan. She's confused. I I'm surprised here. Well, um, Elizabeth Jolan, I am Florida. I am against Jennifer's recommendation. Oh, okay. I was confused. That makes sense. In favor of the appeal.
I'm in favor of the appeal. Um and um thank you for that clarification. So it should go without saying that I appreciate your work and um your willingness to wade through these details. Um you're in the position to write some wrongs um that were made
regarding this property before anyone here on the dis was here and or or even employed by the village. Um this was a problem that preceded you and now you get to unwind it. Um we're seeing these cases come up time and time again. uh Mayor Mahoney just experienced
something like this and um I think we're going to be having another conversation about this um after this one's over. We're going to see it again um here with Mr. Harris. Um it seems an administrative error was made when the village incorporated and this trailer park was overlooked. You have before you
a mountains a mountain of evidence provided by the attorney to indicate the existence of these properties uh operation and we all have been driving by this for the last 30 years. We know it exists in this in this um capacity.
The most compelling argument here um is the Estoppel case where the rules of fair play mandate the village recognize the lawfully established development rights. When you have a village employee approving a site plan for a property
which designates a certain number of trailers and commercial space um in a separate apartment building to move forward on sewing. Would that have been the point where Gino should have what what should
he have done then? Um, investigated the employees qualifications to make that determination. It's asking a lot of a property owner. Um, because he was asked to spend almost $200,000 then to sewer his property and he's been assessed for
that ever since. Um, I think what we're doing here tonight is correcting a number of administrative errors. Um, and again, you know, this group will continue to have to unwind these errors. Um, that that that were not on you or
this staff. Um, Sharon had an had one of these errors that was corrected. She benefited from equitable treatment and I absolutely hope that we can do the same for this individual. Thank you. Thank you, Elizabeth. Any Marne? So,
she's four then. Is there anybody else for now to against? There's no one else. Okay. To speak at all. All right. So now councel, do you will have we can start with your questions. Steve, do you have anything or uh not right now? Anna,
he's ahead. Okay. Go ahead, Don. There's a lot here. Yeah, there is a lot. It is a lot. It is a lot. And um so Jennifer, I got a question for you if I can. Sure. Couple of them. I'll do my best.
On your analysis, you you said that the inventory of existing mobile home parks did not include or recognize the subject property as a lawfully established mobile home park. Who developed that inventory? Um that was uh developed when the
village created its comprehensive plan in 1899. And so do do we know who actually developed that inventory though? That was prior to me. I don't know. And and is there copies of that study or that inventory anywhere in the village records? Yes,
there is. Yes. And and um Okay. And yes, it's it's in your packet. And Okay. And but why did they Right. But why did they not include this M home park? Again, I was not here in the village of
Alamada. I can't answer that question. Okay. So, you were here, Don. You might be I want to know. I was. And I want to let you know that there was also an inventory done on on um on um um uh hotels.
Yes. And they missed about six of them. And the hotels had signage in front of them and big, you know, billboards and some of them and and uh there was I think I took that to Tai at that time when he was playing director and wrote
down the six. One of them happened to be a piece of property I was working on and five of those got on the list but I was working on didn't get on that list. So I don't know that that list is really correct. You in your also in the next paragraph you said that the Monroe
County zoning regulations didn't allow for dwelling units without primary commercial use. Mo trailer parks were considered residential under Monroe County Code. What year was that? I believe that was in 63 and 86. 63 and 86. Yes, sir. And and in your experience,
have you found any permits that were issued for mobile homes in the 60s, '7s? Not in my experience. No. Right. I I can tell you from past experience and knowledge that the tra that the county didn't issue permits for
mobile homes. They issued permits for trailer tied downs. Um they didn't care about mobile homes back in the 60s and 70s. They actually had a inspector and that's all the inspector did was mobile home trailer tie downs. That's that was that
was her job. We would have accepted a permit for a trailer tie down if they had submitted that. But didn't the village recently, well, before your employment, maybe during Tai's employment, maybe before Tai, we
had a another clerk that boxed up a bunch of stuff and we were in that y'all were in that building over there and got rid of a lot of stuff that they didn't feel was important. Were you Were you here then? I was not here then. You weren't here then. And I begged and begged that they didn't
get rid of those things because everything was important. But there were downstairs enclosures that were approved that they got rid of because they weren't important. There was a lot of records that were destroyed, including some very important books that I call the purple books, and still can't find
those. And they were extremely important. Um, I I I have I kind of have a problem. I'm going to move away from you for a minute. I kind of have a problem with lot 13 and 14 with, you know, there being an incorrect number of of spots on
here and you're asking for seven, but we're counting eight and the four apartments in there. And then a document that Gino has from 2013 that says that there's three RVs and RVs aren't houses,
right? So, I don't know if if Gino actually signed this and initial the fact that he corrected it and said with his initial that there's five mobile homes that that helps me come to see what a number is on that piece of
property, but I think I automatically discount the RVs because they're not Moans and RVs can't be considered a dwelling unit. Um, you done? No, I'm not done, but I could I can I
can wait. Well, that's okay. Keep going. I I I I appreciate the license for Howell Johnson and and the fact that the state did look at it as six independent mobile homes and I think that's a good
document to have. Um, and I thank you for answering me the question on the uh on the number of apartments in there. I think I'm done for right this minute. Okay. Do you want to jump in there, Deb, or
Sure. See, I'm I'm I'm also having that's that's why the the water site plan is I see eight on there. If there's four inside the building, that's that's 12 right there. And that's not counting the three. Oh, that is counting
the three. But there's two more on the other lot. And and there is the document here. And the licensing. Um I understood that there was four units. Um and this is this is lot
uh 14. This license. It says four. Or is this lot 15? If you want to speak, you need to come up. 14 and 15. 14. Correct. This is 14. 13 14. 13. 14. Because at that time, I never even knew there was an address for 13. Yeah.
They came up with the address when they booked the city sewer. Okay. I never knew of the address. The I I understand. I understand that. Okay. I understand that. But and the map looks like it's sitting on 14. That's the reason I said 14. The water meter is
That's fine. and and uh I understand you had the water meters and I understand that um to have 17 I forget what it was 17.21 21 four 21 the laundry room
somewhere like that 17 something 17 and something 17 something as edus issued by the village um it can't be just the building and two uh not that we did I I believe what
Jennifer did follow the code followed it right but 17.21 two one whatever it is 17 um mathematically doesn't work for two you would have had to have a car wash there or a uh something else and
and that that's not true. We all know that that's not true. Um, so I'm I'm struggling with I'm not struggling with the fact that there's discrepancies here, but I'm just struggling with how we get to a
number. Okay. Um, I'm sure I'll have some more going on here. Um, let me look at what I made notes on here real quick. Um, that's why they got one.
the uh the assessments were put on in relationship to that 17 that does show that you've been being charged the water assessments. Those are all water assessments and they were two pieces because that's the way the village build it out is that we did the the one
section and then we build for the second section. So, uh the fact that there's two on each um tax role doesn't doesn't surprise me at all. That's that's that's the way it that's the way it shows. Just to explain myself, it wasn't that I
was saying that it was overcharge. I was just trying to emphasize the num that it was the the number times two times x amount of years. X amount of years. and and the number that you put out there of shy of 200,000
um 77,000 um that's a believable number for those account those amount of years because of the fact of what I had to shell out for the stuff that I own during that time. So, you know, I don't doubt what you're
saying financially or some of this. I'm just struggling to get with exactly how many because I know how things grow. Okay. I think Jennifer John wants to say something. They're trying to get a word in.
Yeah. There there's just a couple things I want to address cuz it if um if the appeal is upheld and you overturn your planning director, this has to go to Commerce and Commerce is going to look at this and they're going to look at the evidence and they're going to look at the code. So, I want to make sure it's clear because there was some statements
that were made that that the code says one thing and it's just not correct. So, I want to make sure that you have that information so that when you're making this analysis, you have everything in front of you. There was a discussion about that the the state licenses that
those can and should be accepted under the code. under our code. This is and I'm looking at section 30-473D1 that talks about the criteria when you look at um whether there's a establishing a dwelling unit. It talks
about it says a permit or other official approval was issued by the village or Monroe County. It doesn't say a state entity. It doesn't say any other governmental entity. So that's that's the parameters that your staff has to analyze this and that that's the
parameters of the code in terms of what the evidence um can be used to support. So a state lensure does not fall under the Monroe County authorization nor does it fall under the village authorization. Uh the discussion with regard to the
edus there there have been an argument that um well there's 17.21 21 EDUs that that must mean we have more units. Again, under our code, this is a definition under 62-34. It defines equivalent dwelling unit or
edu. And it talks about, as I think we all are aware, a system capacity equivalent unit corresponding to an average wastewater flow of 157 gallons per day. And then it goes on to say, "This system capacity equivalency unit
may be utilized to establish the water and wastewater demand for the purposes of assessing or imposing rates, fees, and charges. That is what an edu is able to be used for. It's not able to be used for anything other than
how are you going to be assessed for usage?" like like uh Councilwoman Gillis said, if you've got a car wash and it's at you're like a home car wash, you've got one unit, but if you're using a lot of water, the village is going to make you pay for that. We're not going to
foot the the residents are not going to foot the bill for somebody running a home car wash. I'm not saying that's what's being done here, but I think that's a good example. So, I just want to make sure because these are things that commerce is going to look at. They're going to look at the the estoppel argument that was made and and
I do take issue serious issue with the statements that were made about extortion integrity as though there's a lack of integrity and cherrypicking evidence. The the site plan approval that or the site plan that that was presented I I want to make sure we're clear what that
is. That is not a development order. That was an application for a sewer connection plan. It was not an application for a development. It was not an approval for a development. And in fact, in a sewer connection plan for that permit, planning doesn't even
review that. So, it never even goes to the planning department. So, the issue of were there enough, did they have these rights to actually have these units on there never came before planning. So, that that that issue was not there. So, when we're talking about
applying fair play and pulling the rug out from somebody, we're not. That's that's not what's happening here. In fact, what's happening is it seems like you're saying, "Can I use the restroom in your house?" And then somebody says, "Yes." And then all of a sudden, you're saying, "Well, that means I get to go sleep in your bed tonight, too." And
that's not what happens. It was it was a request for one thing. And and we'll ad everybody knows what it was for, but it's not a development order. and and that's that is a very uh important distinction that needs to be made. So when when you all are considering these,
I just want to make sure that you that you address those issues because commerce is going to ask us those questions and they're going to say, "Village, if you if you approve this, defend this and tell us why." And we're going to need the evidence in the record
to support that finding uh for commerce. So, if if uh if that's the avenue you're going, I I'm just asking I'm going to need evidence in the record to support that based upon the the provision of the code. What? He wants to say something. Wait a second. Let me ask you a question. The
those four apartments, how many upstairs and how many are downstairs? Are they all upstairs? One upstairs and and and three down. Okay. Um, also Jennifer, I know from my own experience with my property, it was considered nonconforming, which means it
doesn't it wasn't in the code. It didn't fit. Yes, ma'am. Now, I also was told that, and tell me if I'm right, when you say licenses and permits, if my business that I had on that property wasn't active for a year,
it sort of takes it off the table. Now, since he hasn't had a license or permitting for till 2013, doesn't that make this trailer park null and void? That's correct. There you go. That That's my problem. Let me just finish. I'm 27 years next to
your trailer park. There has been RVs there. There's been crime there. It is not a very well-maintained piece of property, which has nothing to do with anything. But I'll tell you over the 27 years I'm two doors down from you. I have seen people living in all kinds of
stuff. So I have a hard time with this plan when I have never seen it looking like that. So, I'm confused on, and I know this is big for you because I know what a TDR sells for, and I get it, but at the same time, I'm looking at a piece
of property that has not been well-maintained. And I'm having a really hard time justifying something that has just I've seen RVs there. I've seen people sleeping in seven, eight people in one trailer there because I've gone over there and spayed and neutered your cats on that property. And I've seen
just the thing change and no consistency. So I'm having a hard time with you didn't have a license till 2013. Doesn't that take the trailer park off the table, Jennifer? I'm sorry. Doesn't it take it off the table that it was not conforming anymore?
Yes. If if you have a non-conform pre-existing non-conforming use, you have to maintain that. This is considered it was considered that you had to maintain that. If you abandon that use for 365 days, you lose that pre-existing non-conforming stat. That's what I that's what I thought. So, go ahead.
But this the fact that he didn't have a mobile home park license doesn't abandon those mobile homes. True. And and and John, I got a question for you. You said uh uh quoting the code uh permit or other official approval was
issued by the village or Monroe County, right? Correct. And so is this official approval by the Monroe County Health Department saying that there are six independent mobile homes uh something that it's it is Monroe County cuz it's
not a state. This says Monroe County. Which one? That's the license that says Howell's Junction mile marker 83 and it actually says um appro um that it's granted on November 4th of 77 by Monroe
County Health Department. The top one this one the top one they're talking about. So that is a Monroe County approval for that that recognizes back in 1977 six independent mobiles.
I don't see where it says Monroe County on the top. Oh, County Health. I see Monroe County Health Department. I I still have the the license. I never let that license. I'm I'm asking John a question right now, Mr. Don, but that's okay. It just hang on. Sure. And it does say approval shall be
obtained from the county health department and the department of health rehabilitation prior to any increase in the number of um something or other something. So I
can't read that part or alterations to the trailer. So that is a county approval. Well, what is this? I'm I'm trying to see. It's it's it's a health It's I'm not I'm trying to see if I mean it's not a permit obviously. So I'm trying because they didn't issue permits
for mobile homes back then. They issued trailer tie down permits or or approval for I mean their permits were really sloppy in the 60s and 70s. Do we have a copy of it does say this permit grants authority to operate the establishment? It says a
permit. Yeah. I mean I'm just I don't I don't know what this is a permit for. Or I mean it could be an employ like a permit for uh employment. If you have the original I would uh appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because because the top of this
was cut off. It's a little bit problematic. Let me let's see if Steve and Anna want to say something here to you guys. I mean but see here's so Don here's the problem up on the top with a cut off portion. It says state of Florida, Department of
Health and Rehabilitative Services. So, while it is signed by a district administrator, it's the district administrator for the state. This is not the county. This is the state. That's that's the issue. Well, it does say Mandro County Health Department.
It does, but it's issued by the state of Florida. It's right on the top. State of Florida, Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services. So, that's that's the issue. If the state of Florida, it's an operating permit from the state. That that's the problem. Okay. statement here.
Okay. So, okay, Anna or Steve, take your mic if you want to talk. If I may respond real quick to what John previously stated, he advised that. But wait, you're going to So, they're going to have a a chance for for a closing. Trying to get these two to have
Yeah. So, if we're I think we should we right now we're in the council discussion portion. Um and you're able to consult with your lawyer. Um, once we close that, then I think it will be best to go into the closing and and they'll obviously have We'll call you guys back up and let them
let these two talk. They haven't had a chance. Steve, do you have anything? Oh, go ahead. Don't both of you talk at the same time. Well, I'm just having a hard time getting to the numbers that they're getting because again,
I'm at the same spot that you're at with an RV does not equivalent equivalent to a market rate TDR. It just doesn't a house, a home, a home. It It doesn't matter. It's It's not the same thing.
Um, and we're saying there's four. How big is this building to have one upstairs and three downstairs? A big It could be a big apartment upstairs. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. One
upstairs and three downstairs. I would have guessed two and two, but that's that's what I'm asking. Like and and there's so much. We have licensing and we don't have licensing. There's so much all over the place. We
have gaps and stuff going on here that I'm just having a hard time getting to the same numbers that they're getting to. That's it. It's just not the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's
it's difficult. I'm um I'm coming at this more uh from the fact that what what are we pretending not to know? I I don't believe that the applicant has, you know, put on new units, spent all this money, time, and effort to uh hook these
units up um you know, pay into the system as he was told to do uh and and not realizing that there were there were gaps. I think it's up to the municipalities and the counties to maintain those documents and um unfortunately some of them are lost in
storms or in dumpsters. So uh you know I I think uh it's an unfortunate situation that we have a chance once again to write a wrong from something that uh has has been a long time coming. Um it's unfortunate that it it it doesn't meet
current standards. Um, but I I you know, I happen to agree with the with the testimony and and uh and understand that, you know, we we've got to be fair uh to this person. That's just where I'm coming from. So, how many units are you thinking
there is? I was counting 10. How do you get to 10? Is that 10 plus the building, right? Is that 10 on the whole on all three pieces of property? Yes. And how do you get there?
Let's see. I think the application was asking for 10, wasn't it? I know that, but how does the evidence give us 12? 12. 12. How do you get to that is what we're trying That's what I'm trying to figure out is how do you get to 10? I can get
I I I think I can get to six. I I I I look at this one document here from the property appraiser back in 70 uh 66. What lots? And and that's on I they don't put lots
back then, right? Um but it Yeah, even it shows it really shows one apartment up there 600 square ft. Um, you know, that could it could it could turn into two. It could turn into
four. Um, but I I look at that layout there that was done in a in a 66. It looks like this this document here and you cheat a little bit because I
can't see that good. So, I use my magnifying glass on my phone and and I, you know, I can see that it's 600 square ft. Yeah, it is. And then it shows the garage. It shows
the carport and a garage. But I just I don't know how I could I don't know how I could get to 10. I don't I don't see 10. I see a document that Gino signed that says there's five.
I mean, I would believe I would write even on this one here that's a print out. It says five. There's there's a second one that matches this, right? Another lot. I haven't found it yet. Well, I only see this one document. So,
I I just don't I don't know how I can get to that many. Um and and it it'd be nice if there was some kind of approval of that one building that was built in the late '7s. Um, as many permits as I dug through being the building official
for the county and for Alamada, I could find stuff back into the 70s. I couldn't, you know, for permits for buildings. Um, so it seems that there would be a permit for that 1977. I I get the the license that they have
in there that says that it was a business. I mean, I remember there being an auto shop in there. I remember Stacy Krooa being in there with her place and she was downstairs that they've kind of closed in now. That used to be a garage door on that
one side, but that's not there anymore because things just kind of happened. But I I can't I can't see I mean I see documents in here that go back to say maybe there's five. I don't know.
Steve, do you want to justify Appreciate it. Okay. Well, if right here in this on the property record card also for lot 14 in 2023,
there was a permit for a demo of three RV electric hookup poles, remove water and electric from sightes, capping off the waste water back at the main line of the RV spots. Right.
So right there that eliminates the RVs. Yeah. So do you want to uh you guys that you're done with our discussion? You want to ask them some questions or want to stare at the pages
and try to figure this out? Star. Anna, may I ask what page that was? Show me again where where the on the property. This one here on lot 14. I got you go to lot 14. Go to the back. See, I didn't I didn't get them all marked. I get lost in this book.
Right before all the diagrams. Yeah. I just I recall, as I recall, mobile homes had two things. You could declare them as real property or you could declare them as not real property. So they either had to have a license or they were real property. And I recall
when Monroe County made them do that and they had to apply to the the the county to the tax collector and they got a sticker. It was a black sticker with white writing that said RP and you put that in the windshield and that was real property.
Yep. Um I can tell you a secret that you'd go up there and you'd have mobile homes or or RVs and you go to register them every year. They'd ask you which kind of sticker you wanted. Yeah. They didn't care. They didn't care.
And the county didn't care. County building department didn't care as long as it was tied down because Right. I just don't know how we get to it. I don't know how you get to the number. That's my problem on the licensing. Well, that's a whole another I know.
When you've got an RV or a a mobile home park that we all know has been there. I mean, it had Howell's trailer park has been there since I moved here in 1977. I I know it's been there and I know that it's been full of trailers and the county didn't care. Nope.
But how do you get to the right number and they were trailer next to trailer next to trailer? Yes, it was. And there were things there that weren't legal either. So, I have an issue with that. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but it sort of does. So, I need to ask Jennifer a question.
Go ahead. About the licensing, the the the the large gap that we have, 20 years, I think you said it was. Did that start when Gino bought the property or does
that start after he had it and then it lapsed? You got to wait till they're done and then we'll recognize you. Write down your notes so you know what you want to say. Yeah. Um, I'm looking at it. I'm looking it up. Hold on one second. Oh, you have it
right there. Yeah, there's a warranty deed in the packet from Anna Hows to Gino Espalonia. Um, it's dated February 3rd, 1988. It's recorded at looks like official record 1040 1040 at page 2477.
It's in the packet, but it's not numbered, so I can't And yeah, I remember seeing it in there. I don't know that we had an exact date when the licensing stopped, but we it's sometime in the mid1 1980s and then started up again in 2013 is when we could find records.
So, not knowing the the law is no excuse. We all know that from driving. Uh if you don't know the law, it's the officer is not going to say, "Well, I'm sorry you don't know the law, so therefore I'm not going to give you a ticket." Not knowing
the law is no excuse. But it also sounds like potentially there could have been a gap because he bought it and he didn't know that you needed a license. I don't know. And you
could tell me anything tonight. And I don't mean that as offensive as it comes out. But there is that possibility that when it changed hands, nobody said, "Oh yeah, you got to go get that license annually."
And it was only recently that that Did you find it? No, he's trying to talk. No, I just I was just going to point out the deed that I read it was it's I just noticed it was for lots 13 and 14. So, I wanted to make sure that it was I don't I don't I can't find one for lot 15 right now, but I wanted to make sure that
13 and 14 was considered the trailer park, I think. Yeah. I I just want to make sure that I didn't miss and I wanted to to clarify the the bit on the the water usage. Um, I know what I know what our code
says in in using the uh edu count and that you know you're not supposed to use that, but it it needs to count for something. Um, the fact that it was there, it is not an approved thing, but
every it's all those pieces put together. And I that's where I see our job is is to try to put those pieces together. Um, I was just trying to figure out the lapse in the licensing. Jennifer, let me go back to that one
smart the second paragraph under analysis that the Monro County zoning regulations didn't allow for dwelling units without a primary commercial. Uh do you do do you recognize the the commercial building that we can see from
US1 on lot 15? I don't we recognize one commercial building. I don't the lots to me I don't know the lot numbers so I don't know the one furthest to the north. To the north 15 it's on 15 lot.
Yeah that yes. You recognize that? Yes. And so you recognize that and so we've got a commercial building that you recognize and you said the county code didn't allow for dwelling units without a primary commercial use. So we've got a
primary commercial use. So we can then say that the county code did allow for mobile homes or housing residential uses on there. uh because there is a commercial building that
you're recognizing. Yes. And we do have a license that in there in the record that shows that there were employees which would indicate that there is a commercial building or commercial entity of some sort with five employees, right? Yes.
Okay. So, so I'm sorry. What? Say that again. I was reading. What did you say? I'm sorry. So, we do I don't want to say yes to something. We do recognize it was right. We do recognize that there's a commercial entity, a commercial building there, and it did have employees and
Yes, that is true. Yes. And the code did allow for mobile homes or residential units if there was a commercial a primary commercial use. Yes. Okay. So, that helped me because now I've got a document that says there were five
trailers and I do have a commercial use. So that helps me on That's a different lot. On 15. Yeah. And which lot is that on? That's can't be 15. Huh? That can't be 15. Lot is different. They were bought at different times.
That's 13 and 14. I think 13 and 14 were bought in 1988. Lot 15 wasn't bought till 1999. Okay. 139 10 years. Yeah. Yeah, it says sales $428.99 was
for lot 15. Lot 14 was 21 of 88 and 13 is 21 of 88. So we'll call it the
mobile home park was bought as one. 13 and 13 was all bought together and then the additional building and lot was bought 10 years later which has a couple units on and and who do do we know who owned 15
when it was bought? It might be on the correct I don't think we have that warranty deed in here. We can look it up. Well, it's probably it's probably too low. No, it might not be. I know. So, are we saying that 15 was
never really part of 13 and 14? Never apart. Never apart. Never. Never apart. They were never separated. Together. They were never together. Never together. So 15 stood on its own. Yes.
With its commercial use. And it had no trailers on residential and commercial use. Okay. So that doesn't help. That's what I'm saying. I don't think there I don't think you can't put that together because that's a separate entity, right? So that doesn't help
cuz now if there's not a commercial use and Jennifer saying the county code never allowed that. May I add something? Well, was was do we know the building that's on 14? The building that was on
14, not the one we were recognizing as a building, but the one that was on 14. Was it I understood there was an auto shop there for a while or something. That's 15. That's 15. That's 15. I don't even know where the
building is on 13. It's in the middle. I walked over there and saw it. It's in the middle. Well, that's the one that they reference back to the four unions. Yeah, but I thought I thought maybe prior to it becoming an apartment that it was a business. No, I think it's just always apartments.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it was ever a business from what I remember. They could Was trailer parks considered a business? Yes. And and we actually have the uh license and I showed you the license. We
even had five distinct employees. It was a complete it was a commercial business dedicated for um the trader park. So correct that's not the that's not the body shop or the
So the commercial business for lots 13 and 14 it's unrelated to lot 15. The commercial business was the actual occupation, the county occupational license which was issued and I can show it to you but you have it in front of you in 1983 with five employees clearly
distinguishing that there was commercial business in the property for the trailer park for the trailer park any on here I'm having trouble finding the the uh lots that it refers to and I know you said that doesn't come with lots is
there anything on the bottom cuz we're missing a little bit of it on the original. He had the original with him. Well, but it does say How's Junction, which is that was what that Oh, that's true. That's what it was called. Never mind. Yeah. Yeah. In order to help you guys with the
numbering. The thing is that nowadays, as Mr. Bolognia stated, now we're differentiating lots 13 and 14, but it used to be uh com entrally combined. So what I showed you shows 10 units for
lots 13 and 14. So it's in total the same that I'm asking which is three units, four apartment uh four apartment units and three mobile homes. So it's six home home sorry six mobile homes and four apartment units which which shows
which is shown in the licenses that you that I gave you. It's four apartments and six mobile homes. The thing is that they were all combined for uh Howard's Jun Junction, but it's in total 10, which is the same number that we're asking for lots 13 and 14, which is 10
units. Three units in 13 and then in 14, seven units in total, four apartment units, and three mobile homes. They match the number of the licenses that I provided to you. But but the license that he signed right here said five
mobile homes, three RVs, and in 2023 he demoed three RVs. The reason why that demolition was requested by the village was to in order when he approached in order to fix the front of the of the park that was
but but the the number is five and three is eight. It's it's essentially six and four, which is 10. A building dog. That's supposed to the licenses that I showed you is six mobile homes. If Can I show the I don't I don't believe I don't know how
they're not there. Can you give us a second, please? Yes, of course. I mean, how big is it? Hang on. How big is what? That's on that extra lot or that extra bed. That's on lot 14. 14. Hang on. I think one, two, three.
The building is count 1362 ft. And you're getting four apartments and they're showing they're getting four apartments in there. The downstairs is 30 by 20. They can do that. So that could be Yeah, that could 13 originally
and and then the upstairs is right here. Uh oh, I pulled back 12. Um, I'm just going to see how it fits. Originally, I thought that was an RV consider
20 by 30 as well. RP I don't see it. I just had that it the new right now the current property appraiser says it's 1362 square ft that
the printout that we have in the file 1362 ft. It actually calls it a manufactured home though it's not. It says it's multifamily R2 on there. So it it could maybe you know they might have been looking at as one up and one down.
Yes. on there. If you have four apartments, that's 340 ft. That's what I'm saying. That's too small. And there's no you there would be efficiencies, but you could do that. You could have done that. Yeah. But you could there's no
there's no evidence of I'm just saying but it's it's it is feasible. That's ridiculous. I just think it's crazy. But it's but Monro County in this document saying the one that's in the file basically is saying it's a duplex. Yeah. One up and one down. Two floors.
Yeah. So, who do you How do we believe it? Two floors condition is poor. Yeah, it is poor. Yeah. And they say they say manufactured home. I know.
Exterior wall CVS with 2% wood frame. I didn't even know it was a building. Thought it was a trailer. The see the the and and then then when you look at these apartments, the the part of the code that talks about the looking at an aerial and seeing what you're not going
to know, you're just going to know the building's there that it existed. It's not going to help us with the number. So, Jennifer, I got another question. If if a trailer park is licensed, then that is the commercial entity, right? Under Monroe County Code, mobile homes
and trailer parks were considered residential. They were not considered commercial. Even with a commercial, even as a commercial entity, the zoning code considered them residential. The code says that a trailer park is residential. That is correct.
Okay. So you'd have to have some other use on there to to make it so that one's kind of accessory to the other. Correct. Okay. I don't know. Uh I guess maybe we ought to just hear closing arguments or something and move
on. I knew this. You guys have anything else? I knew this would take forever to I know. Me too. Do you want to ask them any questions? Do you want to do your final closing then? Go ahead. Okay. So, a little bit about what John
uh previously stated about the fact that we requested the connection. That's entirely false. The village of Island Marada mandated the connection. So, it's not that we asked for the bathroom and we wanted to sleep in the in your in anybody's room. It's just that the
village as an entity and the fact that zoning did or planning did not approve or did not review doesn't have any bearings in the fact that the village of Island Marada as a a governmental agency or entity sorry requested my client and
mandated my client to cond connect to water and sewer. I understand that there's difficulties in understanding the numbers, but as I can show you from behind, the numbers are there's 10 distinct units for lots 13 and 14. It's
six independent mobile homes for Howard's Junction and four and uh four apartment units. That's the same number that we're asking. The thing is that now we're dividing it into lots 13 and 14, three and then three and and four, but
essentially is six mobile homes and four apartment units, which is exactly what it's currently and what and what what we're requesting. There's no change. There are the licenses. We disagree with Jennifer's statement that per the Monroe
code um a trailer park or the mobile home park is considered um residential. That's the zoning. It's considered residential, but there's a business license that we are showing to you right now again that clearly identifies that
there is business activity which supports the fact that there was business activity and we and and we were allowed to have the trailers. We're not talking about zoning. We're not talking about whether the zoning allowed for residential purposes of not or not and
whether that was residential purposes or not. we're talking about a business entity or whether there was commercial activity and there was undeniably commercial activity which is the requirement by the Monroe code. So once again we do believe that our clients
relied on the vill's actions. They relied on the villages demands and obligations to connect to sewer. We did not request that. We would not have spent over almost over $300,000 in connecting. We all know the history. You
all know I I believe that even better than I do the zone or or how the property looks nowadays and how it has looked in the past 30 years we have we have spoken. So the fact those are the facts um the village staff the staff
report and the LOU disregards the history as it was stated before it's a it's a systematic of wrongdoings but at the end you are you the the the council members are now today have now today the opportunity to fix all those wrongdoings
and and and allow for my client to have as stated three units on lot 13, seven units on lot 14 which comprised of three mobile homes and four apartment lots for a total of 10 in where uh Howard's Junction used to be and then two units
and 3,456 uh square footage of non-residential space for lots 15. Thank you very much. Well, I'm confused on the four because it only shows two. So, you keep saying four, but yet it says two. I was going to address that in my
rebuttal. Oh, would you please I'm just let her finish. Where are you saying? I'm sorry. I was going to let Jennifer answer, but Deb jumped in there. So, where are we? Yeah, it's Well, when um when the applica or the appellent is done,
Jennifer will present a closing argument, but we got to Jennifer shouldn't go before before they're done. I thought she was done. Are you done? Yeah. No. Oh, okay. She's done. So, all right. Perfect. I didn't think she was done. Okay, perfect. So, first I did want to just address, you know, we keep talking
about building with four units in it, but I just wanted to note that the two buildings that we looked at on all three of the properties. The only permits that we could find were um a permit uh well, not even a permit. The property record card from 1961 on um property number
two, which I don't know what law number that is, but we're calling it property number two in our dwelling unit determination shows a two-story building with a single family residence with three rooms. Um, so it's a single family residence. It's one unit. And then property number three shows a
one building and is a permit uh number C-233 which was issued in 1974 permitted a two-story building with a two-bedroom single family residence on top and a garage storage on the ground level. So there is no four units that were ever
permitted on any of the properties. So I don't know where that came from. So that's the first thing that was C what? It was permit number C-233 issued in 1974 from Monroe County. Okay. So that's probably
the commercial building where Stacy Krupa was on lot 50, I believe. So be because the C 233 makes sense in that in that area, right? that that number makes sense for that and a property appraiser would have probably recognized it as 77
because that's when it got done coed they recognized it. So permit issued 75 CO issued around 77 probably put on the on the on the rent row or the tax roles. So C23 makes sense of a twotory.
So go back and tell us the number again that you have with permits. Um, so again on the property number two is just from the property property appraisers property record card from 1961 shows a two-story building on property 2 indicating a single family residence
with three rooms. It's all one one apartment then. And then property number three, a permit number C-233 was issued in 1974 and it permitted a two-story building with two bedroomedroom single family residence on top and a garage and storage level on
the ground level. So there's only two apartments on the whole property. Correct. And not five, six. What are we saying? I'm sort of confused. So you said four in one. And how many did they say in the other? Two. Two. So that's seven. So we're down from
two to seven. 7 to2. Okay, I'm gonna go back. And then I just wanted to address the um comments about that we were ignoring the history of the property. My job as planning director and staff for the village is to review the code and to
issue dwelling unit determinations based on the established criteria and the the village's land use development regulations. That is what I did. It has nothing to do with I'm ignoring things or I'm cherrypicking information or I'm not, you know, I'm closing a blind eye
to what I drive by every day. That has nothing to do with it. My job is to look at what the code says and that is exactly what I did. I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that either. Okay. So, can I ask a couple questions about 15? Go ahead.
14. Uh 15 is the one with that we kind of know as Stacy Kroo is building and on that lot they were requesting the commercial square footage and and two units.
One being the apartment upstairs and one being a mobile home trailer something. I'm I'm actually really confused right now as to what they're asking for. So, I don't I'm probably not the best person to ask what they're asking for to be honest with you.
On their conclusion, it says for property number three, which is the lot 15, they're asking for two legally established market rate dwelling units and 3456 foot of non-residential area. So, we don't we don't know whether those
two legally established is one apartment and one mobile home, two, right? No, it's they're saying mobile home. I thought there was one mobile home on there. No, one building period. It's just one building. Can we eat this elephant then one bite at a time?
Well, that's what I was going to try. Can we all agree then on lot 15 that there is a commercial building with one unit? Yes. Yes. Can we do that? Okay. So, we got that out. There's There's no There's no I I can't
find it. You're better at this. I can tell. I can't. There's no mobile home on lot 15. Correct. Correct. Correct. So, yes, I agree. Then it's one with the square footage. Okay. So, lot 15, we've got the commercial building and one.
So, let's move to lot 14. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I was going to I was just going to remind under our code once we enter deliberations, there's no further presentations other unless it's requested by council. So I just I I agree and we're going on what we
have as fact not what you guys are saying. So let us finish. Okay. All right. So let's go to the lot 14 then. I don't want there to John. Have we done what you think is we we've we've had testimony. We've had closing arguments.
We get to just talk now. Yeah. Exactly. We're in the deliberation stage and this is for council and council only. Um, if you have questions, you you have the discretion that you can ask people questions, but it's not we're we're beyond all the the testimony. Perfect. Okay. So, let's And you're done.
You're done. You've closed and all that. You're happy with what you've done. Okay. It's the So, now we don't have a problem there. So, let's go to 14. So, now let's go to 14. The next part of the Actually, they should, if we go by the testimony, we combine them 13. Let's do 13 and 14 together, which gives
us one house or one apartment. That's what they're showing. Correct. Uh not for building because look if I go back to this if I go back to the original this old drawing that I'm looking at with your magnifying glass
with the magnifying glass. I can only see probably one apartment on it just and that's in that old building that sits in the middle. Right. Right. And Jennifer said one building, three rooms. Yes, that's what she said. And I could see that I I think the I
personally think the intent of this license was it was an apartment with four rooms. I don't think it was four units. I don't think it was four unit. I unit whatever they maybe the unit meant that it was rooms. I don't know. I don't there's a license here and there's a
drawing here that goes back to 66. So knowing what I know from dealing with these people that it it meant units. It didn't. They don't count rooms. They don't count rooms.
I I understand what you're saying, but this drawing doesn't even really show the second floor on it. It shows one floor. Mhm. Yeah, that one does. Yeah. But the picture in here does show
That's that one there. It does show a ground level and a back porch and a second floor. And that's 61 and 66. God, I wish we had better records back in the I know.
Okay. So then how many trailers? So let's let's finish the building. Do we all agree? We need to come to an agreement on what we think is in the building. I don't agree there's four. That's just me. Well, yeah.
And you do. So there No, I didn't say that. I said what I said is that my experience with the Department of Regulations that four means that there was four units. I But I see only one stairway going up.
Well, I I I don't doubt that. I'm I I'm just saying that they they they they don't they don't go in and count bedrooms. Well, and just because that's what that says in what 1960 something, that doesn't mean that's what's existing
either. 83 83 whatever it is. Just because that's a lot of years ago. Say it again. Just because that's what that had at that time, that doesn't even mean that that's what's sitting there now. Oh, that's true. That is very true. So
So do we think it's a twostory building? Well, it's a it's a two-story building in 61. So So um do would we believe that there was one upstairs and one downstairs? Yeah, I could believe there's a
I could believe that there was one unit down and two units. Yeah, I could go with one one up and one down for sure. One, one up. two bedrooms. Yeah, I think that's what that four meant. Okay. So, so let's just right now leave that and go to the
trailer. So, the So, the building could we could we all agree that there was two apartments, two units, two, one up, one down. Yes, Steve, I can get there. Yes, you can get there.
Y I don't think there's more. There's now no less ever. I think that they've been using it as more. I think if there was 10 bedrooms, they would have been using them. Sorry. Okay. So, okay. Now, the trailers,
right? I I see five. I'd say five. I could I'll go off of five. I mean, this says six independent mobile homes, but but at the same time, that was in 77. And then there's another document that says five mobile homes
and that was in what? And and that was after some demo took place and the RVs whatever. So this was in 13. Yeah. This is more recent. Yeah. Which
So that's one. So over the course of years sometimes a mobile home gets pulled off and an RV gets slid in in its place. So this might have been true in 77 that there was six,
but when he did the application this year, he said that there was three RVs. Correct. Um, and you can't go off of anything that the property appraiser says as far as year built because that's just when the
trailer that's the age of the trailer, not when it was actually stalled, placed. Yeah. And we all know trailers can come and go real quick. Yeah, ma'am. Okay. So, do we have anything here that we can move forward with?
Well, it's either five or six in my opinion. I'm not going to be any more than five. I agree. I'm sorry. I'm not going to be any more than five. I can't get more than that. Yeah. I mean, he states himself five. Yeah.
So that would be a total of eight between the three lights. Yep. Can we get there? Everybody get there. Steve, are you I are you with us? Yeah, I'm with you. I'm following. You're very quiet over there.
I'm paying attention. He's doing his homework or something. Looking for fish. Please make me shut up. Okay. So, do I have Five is okay with me. Do we have a motion or a second or anything? Do we want to end this misery or we want to keep
going? Well, what's the total number that we're talking? It would be eight. So, we need to recap it. That's all. Right. It would the recap would be so on lot 15, a two two unit apartment on 14 and then between 13 and 14
five trailers that that that we might be able to get to. And are we are we considering those present market rate or affordable or Oh, they weren't deed restricted. Well, I wish they were all deed restricted as a maybe that would
even help me get even better there is that we we'd recognize them because they are workforce housing. That's what it is of workforce housing there. It's not residential necessarily residential units.
If you were to transfer a mobile home off of that a mobile home park, that has to transfer as an affordable housing unit, I think. I think it does. That's I was just going to ask Jennifer. Yeah, I believe so. Although it's I mean it's not recognized as a mobile home park, obviously, but but yes.
So, can we get to eight? Are we good with that, Jennifer? If if we recognize those as as uh as five mobile homes that have that we believe have been on that property based
off of the evidence that's prevented and all of the other stuff. If we recognize those as five mobile homes, then according to the code, if they transferred off, would they transfer off as an affordable unit? Currently, that's not a question I can
answer right now. I'd have to I need some time to look at the TDR code unless the unless it changed. It's my limited memory that that's what happens when it comes off of a mobile home lot,
mobile home park, right? Park. But is that just based off of the zoning or is that based off of It's based off the zoning. It's It is based off the zoning. Correct. And the zoning there right now is village center. We village center. Yes,
we've had this discussion of of that shouldn't may have not been appropriate to do that years ago and we did it on um what was the what was the trailer park
behind the post office called? Oh yeah, I forgot. I don't know. I can't remember now. Um I just had it. Peaceful. Who threw that out there? It was peaceful. Peaceful farms. This is when that code came into existence
because there were so many of them in there there. It was mixed property too. RVs and but if you took it off of the property, it became unaffordable. I think I based on the zoning, they could it would be market rate. They wouldn't be required to transfer them as
affordable with a couple based on the zoning. Correct. with with a couple of exceptions. But but those exceptions are not affordable. They're they're caretaker caretakers colleges. Okay. So they're market rate by zoning.
All right. So we've got five plus an apartment. We have six market rate, right? Okay. Is that what I'm hearing? Is that what I'm hearing? our discussions that we're coming up with six market rates the one apartment
and five mobile homes make them on the two lots. Yeah. Whatever they whatever number if it's in village center they would they would transfer off as market rate. They wouldn't unless it's it goes into a couple where it could be caretaker where be limited to caretaker but
but like if it went village if it transferred from village center to make R1 it would be market rate. Okay. I don't know. I guess we can. Is it in the new comp plan? Look, I I I know that
Jennifer is has a box that she has to stay in and the box and the box has forced her to say, you know, to come to the determination. But I think that there's enough historical knowledge up here to know
that records have been lost and and counts haven't been made correctly and and and and that there's been units that have been there for for year upon year upon year. And there's enough evidence in the record to show that there were
that that there were things there. I'm not going to say that they were all mobile homes and and and or or andor res, you know, the residential units that are being asked for because you we all fully know that a 600 ft box can
turn into two or three units pretty much easily over the weekend. Um so um I think it's a right thing to recognize that there has been some units there and
and I I I think that the the the evidence shows that there were that that there's some things in in there that that could be considered mobile homes and not RVs.
and after the discussion that I I I'll make a motion if so I would make a motion that based off of the evidence that's presented and what we talked about in the deliberation that we end up with
um with a with a lot lot 15 has one unit lot 14 has two apartments and then 13 14 combined has five so and and the commercial square footage of 3,400 the commercial square footage that
you've already recognized it rightfully so. So I would make a motion that we find a way to lawfully establish a com a total of eight units there and I wish they were affordable housing units.
So do I. Do I have a second? I'll second. Okay. Go ahead, John. I was going to say just as part of that, can I ask that it would be the appeal is granted in part would be what it would state. Okay. The appeals granted in part. Okay. And I accept that. I was just going to
ask you, but that's not the vote that was supposed to be in front of us. That was the It was whether or not the appeal was approved or not. Yeah. So, you're Yeah. You're granting it in part. So, we're granting it in part and we're
providing direction. We'll take a break. Is that so you're granting a pardon recognizing uh the number of units and square footage that was was just specified. It was eight units and I can't remember the square footage. Okay, John. 3456. Go ahead. Does that go does that go to the
Department of Commerce then? Yes, it will because it's it's overturning the uh the planning director. Um and so yeah, it'll it'll get sent up to commerce and um uh no, right? Commerce could. Yes, Congress could. Uh so everybody knows that.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. Marty, then any brother watching big, would you call the role, please? And John, you have it right. What? You have you have the the vote the way we needed to say it. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, to clarify, um, Vice Mayor
Horton made the motion. I did. And who seconded? Was that I did you? Okay. It doesn't matter. They tied, but Oh, okay. It doesn't matter. So, Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. Um, council member Deb Gillis, yes. Council member Steve Freriedman,
yes. Council member Anna Richards, yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney, yes. And motion passes 5 to zero. Okay, that was fun. Can we take a quick Yeah, let's Yeah, let's take a five minute break. And I do mean five minutes. This isn't Buddy Pender here, so yes,
five minutes. This is now Sharon time. Nobody is in the back kitchen. Who? Sue. Sue Miller. Get out of the back kitchen. Okay. Where's dad? Come on. Can I put here?
I got to put a bell on this council. Where did you go? Right there. All right. All right. Wait. Tell them. Oh, no. We have the other I know. That's what I'm saying. I said I almost zoom in.
We have the other kumbaya thing to hear. stand. I'm saying we're still signing. Oh, yes. We're going to be out of here at 10. Okay, John. Yep. Next time. Quasi. Let's go. Ty knows he's got a minute and a half. I told him. Okay, let's go. We're on tab 27 resolution of
the village council of Alam Marta village of Islands, Florida considering administrative appeal of number PLP 20250068 filed by Ty Harris, PA agent for Brian McGraine, appellent relating to a dwelling unit determination by the director of planning for property located at 107 Carol Street having real
estate number 0040069-00000000 on upper Madakumbi Key is legally described herein providing for the transmitt of this resolution to the state department of commerce. and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this resolution for the state department of commerce. Um and council before we begin if you will please uh disclose any exparte
communications including the substance that you may have had um on this tab and also please include uh whether the uh person represented any group or entity as you best recall. Okay, Deb um Ty and he's a lawyer. Don.
Um, I think I only spoke to Thai on this issue. I don't disappoint anybody else. He sounds disappointed. Anna, no. Yeah, right. That's all I can recall. Seriously, that's all right.
I've only spoken to Ty and it's about this issue. Well, I'm left out. I didn't talk to anybody. Steve, nobody. Okay. I couldn't get you to Yeah. Uhhuh. All right. Um, I believe Rob, nice to see you. Good to see you, too. Uh, good evening, council. Rob Mather, planning review
engineer. So, I'm here today before you to, uh, discuss the dwelling unit determination for 107 Carroll Street that's being appealed. Uh, 107 Carroll Street is an 8,000 ft lot with a,459t ground level structure constructed in 1958. property currently exists in the
settller's residential zoning district and the historic zoning was RU3 multiple family hotel motel district. Uh in 2017, the property was previously the subject of a pre-application conference PC-17-06 uh under previous owner where dwelling
unit determination was performed and the village issued a determination that there were two residential dwelling units existing on the property consisting of uh 1459 ft. There was no appeal to this determination. Uh in June of 2025, the applicant has
filed for a dwelling unit determination requesting recognition of three residential dwelling units. Uh staff applied village code procedures and conducted a thorough review of past records, historical permits, prior county zoning regs, and applications middles, which led to the village
issuing a determination recognizing two residential dwelling units on the property consistent with the 2017 determination. Uh the way we conduct these determinations are by applying section 30-473D of village code. There are two criteria
evaluated to determine the number of units or non-residential floor area contained on a property. Criteria one is very simple. a permit or other official approval exists. Uh, I'm sorry, a permit or other official approval was issued by the county or village, which shall be
proof that the units were in existence in April 1990 or if a certificate of occupancy was issued after. We did not find criteria one to be satisfied because of the lack of historical permits. So, we move on to criteria two.
There are three separate subriteria and criteria 2 that must be met in order to recognize a unit. 2 A can be satisfied with utility invoices from FKC or FKAA that clearly indicate by separate meter that the unit was being served in April
1990. Alternatively, a Monroe County property record card can show the existence of units in 1990. In their request letter, it was stated that the property was originally permitted as a duplex. However, the zoning was RU3. The applicant claims that there are three
existing electric meters which demonstrate the legal conversion of the duplex to a triplex. The applicant also claims that this conversion was completed sometime before April 1990. FKC invoices for each meter have been provided by the applicant, but they are
dated June 2025 and no further historic invoices were provided. Without these invoices, the criteria cannot be met using the electric meters for three units. Um, also there was a historical property record card dated 1979 which stated that
the structure was a duplex. Uh, therefore we found 2A was only satisfied for two units. 2B requires aerial photos or a signed and sealed survey that shows the existence of the dwelling unit in 1990. Uh, while aerials can't necessarily show how many dwelling units are in a structure, it does show that
the structure existed. So therefore, this condition was satisfied to the extent feasible. 2C can be satisfied by a determination from the village that the use could have been legally permitted under the zoning and building codes in effect for the parcel at the time the structure was constructed. Uh
while the historic RU3 zoning district did allow for apartment houses, the minimum square foot requirements would not have allowed the units to be legally permitted per the 1960s code. Minimum square footage for an apartment house must have been three times the square
foot requirement for a single family dwelling which was 750 square ft. Therefore, the triplex must have been a minimum of 2,250 ft. Um let me see.
Okay. So, due to the lack of sufficient evidence to satisfy criteria two for three units, village staff supported the prior determination that two units were existing on the property. Um, also in the application packet, the applicant uploaded
uh a photo of a neighboring property. There were some questions about that, so just want to be clear. Um, one of the photos in there is of a neighboring property. It was not labeled. Um, so based on these facts pres presented and the lack of legally established dwelling
units, a third dwelling unit, uh, we recommend denial of the appeal. Okay, Jennifer, do you want to add anything or we're good with him? Okay, council, any questions? Don, you have your mic on? No. Okay. Sorry.
All right, so any at this time? I'm sorry. What? Oh, okay. Okay. So Rob, we will take everyone in four now and we'll talk to you again, I'm sure. Thank you. Um Ty, thank you. Uh again, Ty Harris with the
law firm of Ty Harris, PA Plantation Key. I'm here on behalf of uh Dr. McGraine who's been in the audience getting a taste of um of what a council meeting's like in Isle of Marada and uh and and more specifically what quasi
judicial items can be like. Um, after you saw what happened for the last hour, hour and a half, it it's pretty evident that we probably need to change the criteria we use in in letting staff make determinations because there are things
that you can consider that they cannot consider. For instance, this property, as Rob pointed out, has three electric meters. It also is being charged for three garbage pickups and it's also been assessed for three edus. Even though
we're not doing a car wash, it's pretty logical to think that there are three units. Also in the package that I provided you, there are letters from two previous owners u attesting that it was a triplex and also one from the venerable Jim Mooney who has sold this
property and is familiar with it and will also uh testify through his letter that it was a triplex. That being said, um you know the there's two key dates here. The first is the date that the
that the property was was built, 1958. And and in 1958, there the code in Monroe County, they had what was called a general zoning code. And I'm just going to give you a little history. I won't take too long,
but up until 1939, uh Monroe County, uh had no authority to zone any property. It wasn't until 1939 that the Florida legislature enacted the the ability for any county or municipality to actually zone property.
And the first zoning code in Monroe County didn't come up about until 1944. And in 1944, so we're getting closer to that 1950s date. In 1944, these were the classifications. residential,
commercial, agriculture, and this one was maritime. Then there was industrial. That was it. No further ado as to the specifics of each one. Those were the classifications. And so
when this property was was built, like much of this pro these properties in in settlers residential in the ' 50s, that was the zoning. and the RU RU3 zoning um really started to kind of get
honed in in 1979 and then it was changed again in 1986. But the the thing that staff is really pointing to and why they can't can't find this to be in compliance at their level is the the 750 square foot that
you would have needed under the zoning code in the 1960s to meet the minimum size requirement. So that got me thinking and also got my client thinking about what's around us. And so I snapped a picture of what's
across the street and you can't quite see it, but there's actually four doors across the street. So we started looking at a few of these and at the 132 Carol Street, which is right in that same area that was built in 1953.
It is 3,10 total square feet. It contains five units. None of those units are 750 ft. If we were to assume that they're all the same, they would be 602 ft. So, they
don't meet the criteria. Uh the next one is 108 Carol Street. And oh, by the way, all these are now zoned settlers residential just like my clients. If we took 108 Carol Street, 108 Carol Street is 1,020 square feet and one of them is
a duplex. So that's 510 square ft. So it would not have met the minimum square footage. The same thing would go for 113 through 115 Carol Street. So you you kind of see the pattern here that we have a bunch of of properties that are
in this same area that are zoned sellers residential now but were developed and are recognized to have more than one unit but would not meet the minimum square footage under the code at the time. And we all know if if you spend
any time listening to the folks that have been here that in the 60s and the 70s and in the 80s, nobody really cared about residential. It wasn't that difficult to convert anything from what it was when it was originally built, a
duplex, into a triplex. And it wasn't until 79 that the county even started limiting what that zoning district allowed as far as a triplex. So based on the preponderance of the
evidence um and the fact that we have these markers, historic markers about how many garbage assessments, how many electrical units are all on the wall. They're still paying for three garbage. They're still paying for three EDUs and they still
have three electric meters and we have testimony through through evidence that's been provided that it was a triplex when these other folks owned it. I think that satisfies the condition for for the council to approve the appeal.
And again, I think we really need to start considering whether edus and and you know how many garbage historically garbage assessments have been given should be markers. They don't have to be determinative on their own but
cumulatively they should be considered staff should be allowed to consider those in determining the number of units. we've really kind of hamstruck staff uh with this very limited, you know, basis for doing their analysis. I
mean, you heard Rob, yeah, I I meet the criteria because I showed an aerial that the building was there, you know, but you can't look through the building to see how many units were there over the years. So, what does that criteria really really do? Unless you're arguing
about whether a building is there or not there. So, how much how much how much does that help you or help staff if that criteria doesn't have some other parts to it? Like, okay, if the if we're questioning whether there's a building
there, let's use an aerial as a determining factor, but why the heck is it in there? when we're talking about something where there's no argument that it's existing, we really I think we really need to think about having um LPA look at some additional criteria so we don't leave staff kind of in a bind
where they can look at these things and say, "Gee, I see it, but I can't use that in my determination. So therefore, you're going to have to go appeal me." Because nobody likes appeals. These aren't fun. This is the least fun thing I do. Um, and it's the first one I've
actually done because I generally don't want to appeal staff. I want to find a solution, but in this case, we are all hamstrung, staff and myself in coming up with with a a solution because of the criteria that they have to apply. So,
with that, I'm I'm finished with my presentation. Um, and if you have any questions for me that I haven't answered already, I'm I'm here. Thank you. Anybody have anything for Ty before he sits back down?
He's already sat down, so I don't know. I do have a question. This property records card. Does anybody have the a better copy of the original that says whatever in the margin? It says something about house is something
something on a lot incorrectly per Horus. I don't I don't know what that's what mine looks like too. Okay. Okay. Anybody else? Deb, you done for now? Okay. So, now Marne in favor.
Sue Miller. Oh, sorry. Read. Oh, okay. You can read it on your It's sideways. Uh, house is now assessed on this lot. Uh, house is now assessed
on this lot. was assessed incorrectly on looks like RE40067 per Horus uh 71179 and an initial sh.
So what does that mean? Did it explain what was incorrectly assessed? No. I above it it says original card missing made up new card. Oh goodness. more missing documents written on a
serial box. Okay, it says duplicate on it. Okay. All right. Sue Miller, lower Manakumbi. I read this um staff report and I it was very
confusing to me. Um I thought that we usually went by um the utility bills, etc. And I have a home um at on Carol Street had a duplex on Carol Street that
was destroyed in Hurricane Irma. It was built in the 1950s and it was u 480 square ft for each of the units. And um I paid for two edus. I
paid for two garbage bills. And I um when when the house was when the duplex was destroyed, I rebuilt it as two single family homes. And um I don't understand why there would be any question as to how many units if you're
paying for the three edus, three garbage bills, etc. I think that um when we did our comprehensive plan, we talked about um electric meters and water meters, we
didn't talk about edus because we didn't have a central system when the when the code was written and we probably should talk about edus in the future code and um so I just think that this is really cut and dry to me. I don't understand
why there would be any question. Thank you. Thank you, Sue. Morning. Anybody else? No, ma'am. Okay. Anyone? Oh, Sue, because because it's that negative thing, Sue, are you in favor of them getting three or or two? The way it's written is we're
either going to support the favor of the appeal. Yeah, she's in favor of the appeal. Thank you, Sue. Thank you. Of the appeal. Okay. It just the negative and the positive get really
confusing on stuff like this. Thank you. I had to ask which see Marty now we're going to not in favor. We have no one. Okay. Uh anything you want to say, Ty, before we start talking? I want to know how his
electric bills are so cheap. I know, but Yep. I'm looking at the electric bills. I'm trying to think how he's a $42 electric bill. Really good AC. Yeah. Come on up. So, I probably should have clarified. There's a little bit of a confusing point in the historic codes. Um, and let
me turn to him real quick, but it's not just a 750 ft requirement. There's two square footage requirements. The 750 ft requirement uh more or less applies to the structure size. Now, there is also a
unit size requirement. Um to read it verbatim, its minimum lot area per family or living unit for an apartment, house, motel, or hotel shall be 400 square feet. Um so each unit would have had to have been a minimum of 400 square ft. Wait a minute. Wait, read that again to
me. The minimum lot size, didn't you say? So it says minimum lot area per family or living unit for an apartment, house, motel, or hotel shall be 400 square ft. Uhhuh. minimum lot area. Okay. Correct.
So, so what I understand this to mean is that a unit needs to be a minimum of 400 square f feet. And so each unit there's three. So if there's three, they would have needed 1,200 square ft.
No, that's when you move on to the square foot content on the next page. The minimum square footage for an apartment house, apartment, hotel or hotel shall be three times the square foot specified for a single family residence in that area. So that's where we got the 2,250
ft requirement. And to bring up Tai's point where he was talking about the neighboring properties, um, yes, there are quadplexes and those are greater than 200 or 2,250 ft. Um, I looked at the one that he included with the picture. We didn't do
a dwelling unit determination on it, but it was over that size for a square footage. Anybody have anything else, Rob? No. Dad, do you have anything else? I I I do. This this code that you found that you're quoting from
um is 2000 is um 1960 code. Yes. From what I understand, um, this house was built in 58. Correct. So there's anything possible prior to
1960. So from the applicant's letter, we based on that um, they stated that it was originally permitted as a duplex and sometime later on converted.
So it could have been converted before this code was in effect. It could have been originally built and then they added another. So then we look at the property record card in 1979 where it's stated as a duplex. Yeah. Oh, this doesn't say duplex.
Yes. It looks like they added on in 2019. Say it. Say it in closing. Go ahead. What do you want? What? So, I need to ask him what I'm
seeing in this picture. His eyes are better than mine. Is this the back of the building? And is that a door? That's what it looks like. Yeah, that's what I Yeah, that's what it looks like. That's That's a garage. Yeah. Yeah. This is just inside. Yeah.
Did you want to say something else, Rob? Yeah. I would just like to ask what the size is of each unit in the the triplex. Do you know that, Ty? No. Okay. Do you want to z? Well, I think we should have figured that out before we got to this point if Yeah. Yeah. So, the only information that I had was
a permit that was tagged onto that PC17-06 and it showed one of the units with two beds, one bath at 670 ft. Um, if you subtract the house size from that 670, uh, you're left with 789 ft. And you
can't have something that's you can't have two units that are over 400 in that remaining area after this code was adopted. Right. Not before when the building was built. That did that wasn't the criteria. We don't know what the criteria was, right?
Yeah. But so but we know there's three electric meters there and three currently. Yes. And there's what? Three trash and three three. Do we have any idea if we have any
history on I I didn't see it in here on the um the garbage how they've been paying three garbage bills, solid waste bills? How long? We we don't All we got is one set of electric meters.
No, I don't have that info. Well, you and you also have letters in here from two previous uh owners. Yeah, that stated it was a trilex and and a real litterer. Yeah. Who's
Well, Christy Hughes, I'm gonna Well, yeah. But so back in those days, they didn't issue permits. it the furthest permit I ever found digging in every file that I ever could when I was the building official
and the rec official recordke keeper for Monroe County was one house in 1959 that was the that was uh built by an architect out of Miami that insisted that they issue a permit uh as I recall
that was in the record issued at the insistence of it was some architect and he drew the plans and he and he got this permit. But but I could I could it was very rare to find any permit uh before
1963. The Monunroe County Code, the building code was adopted by Monroe County right after Hurricane uh Don. Yeah. Don and there wasn't even an adopted building code
other than what was in the zoning code. Mhm. So you didn't have any real way of knowing how even how to build. My building was built in ' 62 and we didn't get a permit. Dad didn't get a permit. They didn't see residential wasn't important to them back in those and
commercial didn't really matter when they did the original zonings. They just they would actually this the the the the story that I heard was that the the tax collector in Monroe County didn't want his uh nephew to live in Key West
anymore. So he sent him up here and put him in Harry's Bar and gave him a stack of index cards. And on Monday and Tuesday he issued permits out of Harry's Bar. Wednesday and Thursday he issued permits out of Marathon. And Friday he was allowed to go de back down to Key
West and go back up to Harry's bar. And when he when he ran out of cards, he used napkins, right? They used an index card. And really all it was get the train back on the track. All it was was what do you want to build? What what what do you want to
build? And that's how they did the zoning is Fred, what do you want to build in this area? We'll put a zone in. So um these records were awful. And that's the problem that we continue to have. with these really old buildings and and so what else can you go by other
than other than you know anecdotal information from folks that's been here for a long time uh old-timers in the room like me and Sharon that remember what was there before
or uh or or documents that that you can kind of scr together cuz permits just didn't matter to them. No, they didn't. just the same as we went with the trailers in it. It would have been easy for them to pull a permit for two and while they're building it, they go, "You know what? We could have
we could stick another one in there. We got another hired help here at the Islander or whatever that we want to stick in there." Um, so a lot of those buildings back in that in that area and at least the zoning in there fit at least the zoning in there fit our
three. It was multiple family apartment buildings that that streets there. So, where do you guys Steve? You're quiet. I I kind of go back to what I was talking about before is is is what's
fair here? Um what can we do to um write a wrong? Uh to me, it it seems like it's been established. We have, you know, corroborating letters from, you know, back in the early 90s from from owners that thought it was a triplex. We have a
gap in in recordeping. Uh, so it's up to us to make a determination. Does anybody want to make a motion? Go. I'll do it. I'll make a I'll make a motion that we I always mess up, but based on
I I want to uh approve the appeal. That gives them three. Correct. There would be a motion to grant the appeal and uh recognize three dwelling units. Thank you. That's what I said. Second. Second. Okay. Marley.
[Applause] Okay. Council member Debbillis. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. That motion passes 5. Okay. Thank and
please think about changing the the criteria so that staff can look Do we need to do it tonight? Hey Ty, the LPA meeting is on Monday. See you then. All right. See you then. So John, we're zipping over to consent agenda. Yes, we are. Uh we're in the consent portion of the agenda. These are items
are routine nature and council members have reviewed these items in advance and sought the sta advice of staff as they felt necessary. There will be one vote on the consent items which today are items 2 through 17 or sorry tabs 2 through 17 and 28. If anyone would like to pull an item from consent, he or she
should state so now. Uh mayor, if I may. Yeah, I was going I would like to pull tabs 16 and 17. Okay. And have a discussion or pull it totally? I want to pull it and have a discussion. Okay. I just want a quick statement on
tabs six and seven. And um Ron, you already talked about wastewater. So I just want to make sure we stop this bleeding financially for the taxpayers and do what's right for the community. So you've already addressed it. So I six
and seven we're going to work towards fixing. So I guess I'll just leave it with us working with Keargo now. Okay. Six and seven. Yeah, that's uh wastewater. It's wastewater money and Paul Page. Okay. No, I agree with you totally. We need to work on that.
Yes, we do. Is anybody Steve, do you have anything to pull? Are you good? I think I'm good. Anna, I'm good. Deb, nope. Okay. So, so 16 and 17 will be moved to the regular resolutions out of consent. Okay. Okay. So,
so that leaves what numbers? So, did we vote on that? Should I get my keys out? The tabs for consent are 2 through 15 and 28. Okay. And 28 to remind everybody is Dawn going on the Greyhound.
Correct. Yes. Okay. All righty. Any discussion council or move to approve? What do we have? I make a motion to approve. Public. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, we'll have public comment, but there there's a motion on the table. We
can second it. We can always open public comment after the motion. Okay, I'll second. Okay, Marne. Yes, Sue Miller has signed up to speak. Sue Miller, Lauren Matakumbi, I just wanted to make a couple comments about the consent agenda. It's really
troublesome to me that there are 16 items to be approved with a single vote, now only 14. And um and the total cost of those tabs is $6.5 million.
And I know at one time our manager was um telling us that we shouldn't be approving major expenditures um for taxpayers from the consent agenda. But this one was really bad. Um,
competitive bidding was waved for 16 companies, including seven wastewater companies and nine fire rescue companies. The fire rescue expend expenditures in the consent agenda was $914,000.
The wastewater expenditures in the consent agenda was $1,725,000. The the other issue that's in the consent agenda, which really concerns me, is protecting US1 in the consent
agenda, approving $105,000 design and permitting of a breakwater at Seoted Beach to basically protect US1 at that location. And um I really believe
that our small town should not be undertaking such a mission to protect US1, a federal and state highway. That should that that could end up being a huge issue and I hate to see it in the
consent agenda without significant discussion about protecting an evacuation route for a huge population south of there and um whether our town
should be the one doing it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Sue comment. Yeah, you can comment. You want to finish public comment? Yeah, go ahead. Anyone else? No, ma'am. Okay, Deb. Okay. Um, on on that item, that's the one I was referring to that we are
eligible and have applied and probably will get the resilient Florida grant program um for the US one and the $105,000 will also apply towards it.
Okay. Thank you very much, Deb. Okay. So, any discussion, council? Okay, we have a first and a second. Was that Don and Deb? Yes. Yes. All right. Vice Mayor Don Horton.
Yes. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. That passes five to one or five to zero. Okay, John, we are on tab 16. Um, this was uh the
first of the two pulled from the consent. It's a resolution of the village council of Alarma Village of Islands, Florida approving the piggyback purchase of a 2026 Ford F250 XLT from Duval Ford fleet sales for the Village Fire Rescue Department. Declaring uh
2011 Ford and 2016 Chevrolet AS or sorry, Chevrolet as surplus property. Authorizing the village manager to execute necessary documents. authorizing village manager to expend budgeted funds and providing for an effective date. Terry, good evening, council. Um, as John
explained, what you have before you is the hopeful purchase of an F250 to replace two vehicles that are in the fleet right now. 2011 2016 truck just trying to replace it. We are piggybacking the Florida Sheriff's uh
bid association. uh originally budgeted at 90,000. Once we got all the final bids in, we're coming in at 67,000. Uh we'll take the two cars once these show up in about a year's time. We'll take the two other vehicles that were current in use and then we'll go deals them and
uh that money will go back to the general fund. Can I ask you how old the two vehicles are that you want to get rid of and how many miles they have on them? Miles, I'm not sure of. Um one is a 2011, the other one is a 2016.
What are they currently used for now? Uh, one is the training vehicle just because it was no longer reliable enough to use daily as the 911 service. And the other one is our logistics vehicle. It's a regular pickup for a training vehicle.
No, that's the Expedition. Okay. So, it's a a white SUV. Um, the 2016 is the logistics vehicle painted red. It's got a reading body on the back. carries all the tools and stuff of that nature and has the striping, mercy lights,
radios, all that good stuff. Fill in still m being maintained. It is, but this year we've had some significant hits. I mean, on more than one occasion, I signed almost a $6,000 repair for that truck. So, again, once the juice is no longer worth the
squeeze, I get rid of them. So, can I I'm going to I'm going to jump to the next tab so we can talk about both. Yes, sir. um want him to read the title. Uh not yet. I just want to have a discussion with Terry on that. So, your
next one is also a purchase of a of another pickup truck. Yes, sir. Uh and that's a uh you're asking for a 2026 uh F550 XL, correct? And um this would be uh another truck
that you're bringing on board that normally you use uh if you need to if you need to use a large vehicle like this, you would normally use something out of the fleet of public works. Public works or wastewater. Yes, sir. Or wastewater. And correct.
And you um you guys don't normally drive those because it requires a CDL license. Yes, sir. And so if you use something that's painted red and has lights, then your EVOC covers you on that. Yes, sir. Okay.
So that truck, that 2026 550 is something that according to our conversation, you would probably use once a week on a regular basis. Yes, sir. Sometimes more often, but yes, sir. And then the
2500 that you're asking for, how often do you use it? The 250 would be a daily driver. I'm sorry, what? A daily driver for my logistics guy. And it's what do you use that for? Uh he keeps all of our stuff running. So
he lives in Kargo, but obviously works here. So he's between the three stations, maintaining the stations and the apparatus if our EVT can't get to it. Another Don't we have another truck you can get from AJ? Well, that's what I AJ, give him a truck.
One of the things that one of the things that we continued to go through as we were going through the budget was continuing to look at how we can cut cost. And so my question is out of the two trucks, it sounds to me like rather than
having to use something of of of AJ's, uh, you need you would like a 550. Can the 550 and the and the 250 be used under the 550? Can you get by with one truck is my question?
It's not ideal, but in in the uh spirit of saving money and and all that. Yeah, we'll take another one for the team. Take one for the team. Another one. Yes. Oh, come on. Well, you know, when we look at the budget, as we've seen, the budget the budget is the large part of
the budget is eaten up as as I'm just saying it's bad thing, but it's eaten up by our our emergency departments, our police and our fire department. Uh, and and it's huge. And so, wherever we can save, we should save. And I think
if we can get a a twofur out of this and we can have get one truck and it for save the you know not not deplete a service in any way cuz really neither one of these quite honestly are emergency vehicles are they?
The logistics is yes. They run 911 calls. Keep in mind we're we're we're running so when you get a 911 call, you run two fire trucks and two ambulances and a 2500 and a 550 if they're the closest response
capability. Absolutely. Depending on the call. Obviously, we we're not going to go to a public assist or or standard medical call, but if it's a bad call, absolutely. My my logistics and my assistant chief ran a call today and assisted our crews. We had an amazing
safe. Unfortunately, the patient didn't make it, but we had 21 crews, both their engine, the rescue, and then the logistics and the assistant chief showed up. Many hands make for light work. So, yes, all of my trucks run 911 as
well with the exception of the white van you guys see me in today, cuz my truck's in You look good in that, too. No, like a soccer mo. It definitely is a soccer mobile. I see. Uh, okay. I then um
John, I think you've I I I would like for you to read the second one, too, because I'll make a motion on on the the first one and and I'll make a motion on the second. I I want to make a comment on Please go for it. Yeah, but I I think we need the second
one read to continue this conversation. I I can read the second one. Council's okay with that. The second one is under tab 17. It's a resolution of the village council of Alamara Village, Florida, approving the purchase of a 2026 Ford F550 XL from Dval Ford fleet sales for
the village fire rescue department authorizing the village manager to execute necessary documents authorizing the village manager to expend budgeted funds and providing for an effective date. Do you want to say anything else? I want to see if you want to say anything else before it's already it's already been discussed, mad. Okay, go ahead, Deb.
Okay. So, so on the on the 250, um I can see how you you need that one to run back and forth and whatever and you it looked really good when you said that you were buying one or yeah, buying one and getting rid of two and all that. And
then you and I also had the discussion about the F550 and it almost parallels what he just said, but I suggested that either maybe um
your guys get a CDL license and you and I said talked about the potential of that and we didn't have the answer for that, but we talked about it and and so you could continue to share a vehicle
and this is the more expensive of the two vehicles. The other choice is that um that you buy it under yours and and wastewater borrows yours.
Um if that be uh but I had the same I had the same goal that you had in mind as trying to save money on the budget. Um, so what? So you're willing to go to one and running the 550 on a daily basis is
okay. I don't know enough about trucks to be able to answer that question. It It's less fuel efficient, but we don't put a ton of miles on them. So the less fuel efficient wouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus, if we go to Keargo with
wastewater, then you don't have to borrow his truck. You'll get your own then cuz we won't have added red. Make it sexy. Sure. Looks good on you. We're probably a year away from that though. Yep. Okay. So, you guys got anything on this side? Oh.
So, are we Well, I just need to clarify where where we're going with this. Are we um Well, clearly we're going to go to one. Yes. Why don't we let him pick which one because Well, it's $30,000 difference. Yeah. But he's the one driving and using them and he's the one that's going to
decide who what it's going to use the most for or he continues to borrow from public works and we buy the cheaper one. Do you have a say? Terry, I think it's obvious that you're
going to get one truck and not two. So which one is the most necessary truck that fire has to have in order to save life, health, and safety? So, in order to maintain the most diversity within the department and build redundancy, I
would say the 550. So, out of the first tab, don't purchase the 250, but let me get rid of the other two trucks. I don't have to write another damn resolution. Um, and then the second one, let me purchase the 550. Okay.
That would be my Well, let Steve, do you have anything to say? He's always sitting there all quiet. I like saving money, so I appreciate that. And um yeah, I I think that's great. 550 is fine with me. Maybe we can get some more use out of that. And and the other vehicles, that's going to be logistics. We might be able to save
money on that and getting a cheaper one. If the one that's you have now goes down, keep fixing it. Okay. So then do we have Let's go to the first one first. 16, which is the 250. Correct. Correct.
Yeah. So So the Wait a second. Go ahead, John. Yeah. So, what I would say for that one because it we are disposing that one does include the disposal. Um, so if it's if you're not going to approve the 250, I would recommend that the motion be to uh motion to um uh amend the
resolution to remove reference to purchasing the F-250 and then still sell the and then approve the rest. Yeah. Okay. You got that? That's my motion. Exactly. That's exactly right in your head. Thank you very much. Do I have a second? Second, Marne. Um, we need public
comment though. Oh, we don't have anyone sign. I knew that. Morning. Okay. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes.
Motion passes 5 to zero. Don't you feel good? We saved some money. Okay. So, now let's go to 17, which is to purchase a 550. Correct. Correct. And I read the title already as well. Okay. Do I have a motion? Motion to approve.
Beat you. I'll second. Marty. Oh, wait. Do I need public comment again? Also, no one signed up. Okay. Okay. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes.
And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. Motion passes five to zero. And Terry, thank you so much. No worries. And as a point of reference for my my other one that was on consent, my nine vendors that are on there. We're not waving competitive bid. Those are contracts that we're already in. Some
are as long as 10-year contracts. I just instead of writing nine separate resolutions, I wrote one to cover all nine. Five of them again are continuing contracts that we've already entered in. So, I'll work with John in the future when we approve a 5-year contract. It
approve your five-year spending if that's a possibility as well. So, just Thank you for point of clarity. Thank you. Thank you. John, do you have anything? Go ahead. No, just uh turn it to tab 18 in the resolutions. This is a resolution of the village council of Alamada Village of Islands, Florida,
approving a one-year renewal of the agreement for professional state lobbying services between Grey Robinson, PA and Marada Village of Islands, authorizing uh village officials to implement the terms and conditions of the professional services agreement, authorizing the village manager to expend budget funds, authorizing village manager to execute the professional
services agreement, providing for a waiver of competitive bidding, and providing for an effective date. Okay. Uh as as you all I'm sure recall, we have Gray Robinson uh was has been retained by the uh village as their uh state lobbyist for for a number of years
now. Uh as part of the agreement that um we have with them, there is a term that allows for a one-year renewal. Um the agreement uh runs October 1 to September 30th. Um, so the the agreement actually
expired uh a week ago, but we are um uh Greg Robinson has has indicated they'd be willing to honor it. Uh, they also indicated um I know um Ron has spoken with them that they are bringing on uh the Southern Group as uh a consultant at
least for purposes of their uh contract with Islam Marada if this is approved and uh it's uh for no additional cost to the village. So it would they would still operate under under that agreement and um we would also get the services of the southern group um through whatever
arrangement they they have made between the two of them. Uh Ron, you said he was on the phone. Is he in bed now? He's been watching for 4 hours. Ryan Matthews should be on Zoom. Uh just let me know uh when he's on. Uh, basically I'm going to follow what John said that
this they've already brought on Southern Group prior to this and I I had that discussion with Gay Robinson that there was discussion by the council that they wanted some local experience with Kate Delo being I think the person most people were focused on and they agreed
to bring Southern Group and Kate on board with no additional expense to us and that's what they and I wanted to affirm with them which they have done that going if we approve this tonight going forward that would be the deal. So, I've talked with both Kate and with Brian who both affirmed that that
agreement is going to stay in effect assuming you all approve it tonight. I've also told them that going forward uh we are going to have a lot more interaction with our lobbying team. Uh we're going to have priorities and u and that basically uh we we are going to try to work also with other entities. I had
a meeting with Kevin Wilson, the deputy county administrator, about a couple of things, but one thing I did mention was kind of combining forces with the county's lobbyist, uh, to go to Tallahassee on things of mutual interest. I bought, for example, uh, the the county's 2025 legislative
priorities, which would be the same for 2026, and a lot of them are ours. And so, I didn't feel like we had to repeat everything, but for example, supporting the stewardship money, obviously, yes. uh land acquisition. Yes. Uh we they talk about trying to cap citizens annual
uh premiums for windstorm insurance obviously. So what I'm saying is just because I don't list every single one of the ones the county has doesn't mean we're not going to fight it. I just wanted to have some specific to Alamrada. Obviously the grants will be specific to us. I mean they're going to get their grants, we're going to get
ours, but there's some things of mutual interest. For example, I'm trying to get the city of Key West and the county interested in the issue we have with the uh uh modular homes. I won't mention any particular ones, but they've they've I've said to them, look, there especially the county. I said, uh, you
know, you already have some in the county in the in the corporate area, and they're going to just keep growing because it's a very lucrative thing. Is is, uh, Ryan on Zoom, by the way, I'm I'm I'm not sure if we connected yet. Just before we get to Ryan, Ryan, just give me give me one second. So, we're
coming up on 10:00 and rather than potentially interrupt Ryan, I wanted to we need to move to extend. I'll make a motion we extend for 30 minutes. Yes. Okay. Sorry about that, Ryan. I just didn't want to interrupt you when you were uh in the middle. And so to repeat, basically, I I had a
call uh last week with the lobbying team, wasn't just Ryan, and we went over the some of these priorities. I had them in the newsletter for the village. I understand that obviously you all are the final decision, but I've met with you individually to try to get your individual priorities, and we can always add to them. The reason why we want to kind of push forward is this week has
been committee meeting week. They're already up in Tallahassee. That's why they couldn't appear in person. And session starts in January. And so, we're kind of under the gun as far as getting our stuff done. 100 bills, I think, have already been filed. And so, we we didn't want to get fall behind. Uh, but I did want to make sure obviously it came
before you, number one, to approve the contract, but number two, to get any special input over and above what we've already mentioned. So, this is Ryan Matthews who is here basically to answer any questions and get any input. Okay. Hey, Ryan. How are you?
Hey, mayor, council. Good evening. Um, I also have Kate Delo uh on the line as well and available to answer any questions. As Ron mentioned, about three months ago, we subcontracted with Kate and Southern um under our previous contract uh to be helpful both at the
local level and with Representative Mooney and Senator Rodriguez in Tallahassee um and we are continuing to do that should the council approve tonight's extension for for one year. um under the guise of of saving the village money that that comes at no cost. We
would do that under our existing contract. Uh and also hope to continue um just sort of the the fruitful relationship in bringing legislative appropriations in concert with the representative and senator uh back to Marada and making um some headway when
it comes to policy. You know, not surprisingly, there's been a contentious relationship between state and local government really over the course of the last decade to 12 years in Tallahassee. You've heard some of that um in this meeting with uh residents talking about Senate Bill 180 and some of the other
policies that were passed last legislative session. You know, this legislative session likely will be no different. uh we're we're likely going to have a legislative session that is chock full of local government revenue uh attention whether that is the giant property tax debate that's going to
occur in Tallahassee over the course of the next 4 months uh but also other local government revenue streams um you know we we we got rid of the business rent tax last year um I think communication services taxes uh and other local government
revenues are certainly at risk uh when We're we're entering the 2026 legislative session. As Rod said, this week um they are in Tallahassee. Uh we've got a committee week next week as well. Um two in November and two in December before we start uh January 13th
uh for the 2026 legislative session. Um I had put together something uh for for Ron a couple months ago basically just looking at the 23, 24, and 25 legislative session. I think the total appropriations secured under those three sessions was just over a million
dollars. There was an exercise that we worked on last legislative session as well in terms of reverting and reappropriating about a million dollars for Monroe County Fire Rescue Boats um that potentially may be utilized in Marada should an agreement be reached
between those two entities. Um, so again, our our our focus is trying to provide a return on your investment and the investment of your taxpayers uh in our relationship. Um, and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Ryan. Council, do you have any questions for
Ryan before we discuss? Hi, Ryan. It's Deb Gillis. Um, I just hope moving forward that that now that we have Kate on board that we'll have a better uh communication back and forth. I think we lost some of that a few years
ago and um I I think it'll just help us get back to um helping you know what we need instead of you trying to figure out what we need. I I appreciate that and I look forward to it. It it's it's changed. I I've had
the pleasure of representing the village for 8 years. I've been very very happy with the communication we've had with Ron. Um but it has certainly eb and flowed over Mr. Cole, Mr. Yates, Mr. Oravec, Roger, uh, in the time that we've we've had our our relationship
together. Hopefully, we've settled down a little bit. Yeah, it was true. All right, Deb, you done? Does anybody do I was going to wait on Steve? Steve, do you have something you want to I think he has a few things to say. Yeah, I I think uh continuing in the
interest of saving the village money, um uh I don't um support this agreement. I'm disappointed with uh their history. I've I've made that matter of public record from the other side before. I think that it would be great if we made
a better effort to hire a lobbying firm that is not associated with um Big Sugar. And I think that it can cause a potential uh conflict of interest. And I'm disappointed in the fact that we weren't alerted on SB80 and uh 258. Uh,
I think those are things that a capable lobbying firm such as Gay Robinson could have alerted us to and and did not basically hearing that, well, we weren't we didn't know that that was of interest of you. And, uh, I I think they should they should well be aware of that. So, um, you know, for those reasons, I I I
just can't support this agreement. Okay. Well, Anna, do you want to say anything before I go to him? I'll let him go. Don, I say a couple of things. Um, uh, Ryan, it's Don Horton. Um, you know, I I
didn't really know what to expect. Um, the the first time I went to Florida Keys Day, I had heard so many different things about how great it is to meet with uh many of the officials up there and uh, department heads and folks that are movers and shakers and decision
makers. And our last visit, my first visit as a council member to Florida Keys Day, I was I was not impressed at all. I mean, quite honestly, I can pick up the phone um and and talk to AMR whenever I want to. She's a nice lady,
and I've talked to her before I was elected and after I've been elected. I'm going to meet with her next week. Uh I can walk into Jimmy Mooney's office, whether it's down here or up there in Tallahassee, and that door is always open for me. Those those doors were those were the doors that that you
walked me through. Um when uh when we were in there talking to um uh Jim Mooney, there was a discussion that we had that Jim was adamant on a few things and we listened to him and and I didn't
feel like I had an advocate at that moment and I feel like that that's what u my lobbyist should be is an advocate for my city. Um, uh, I've also had, you know, had conversations about this issue
that I've been working on and and now that I'm on the advoc advocacy committee for Florida League of Cities, I uh, um, I purposely wanted to get on that so that I could try to talk to um other
legislators and and other um, uh, city managers and and and city council members to try to build a um you know a concerted effort to fix this problem and the comments that I've heard out of uh you or your firm it was fairly defeist.
It's going to be difficult to fix. Uh it may be not the right time to do it because of these discussions about uh you know taxes. It's just another tax. And um and uh
I feel like um I feel like I need you to advocate for us. And I'm willing to uh to renew this contract or extend this contract. Uh to to to discuss your comments, Steve, I think
that Big Sugar is probably in every one of the good lobbyist firms uh pockets. Um, I don't want a second rate lobbyist because Big Sugar is involved with somebody. Big Sugar is smart just like everybody else and they go after the biggest and the best and the brightest
and they're going to they're going to get every one of those that they can on the hook so that we don't get them uh if that's if that's our attitude. So, I think that I think it's our responsibility to go to our lobbyists and and and tell them what our
legislative ideas are, what our needs are, what our wants are, what our demands are, and for them to hopefully lobby for us and carry those things out. So, um, I hope that we continue to have a working relationship that's a lot better than what you've had with the
past, as you said, the past four, five village managers, uh, with the past village councils, uh, and that we work together so that we can, uh, make substantive changes that we need to make, uh, with you being up there in
Tallahassee. And I am so looking forward to having Kate uh on board with us if this if this contract is renewed or extended uh because I put a lot of faith and stock in Kate. I've known her quite honestly since she was 2 years old and
uh I'm going to hold her to that. So maybe it was more than two. Anyway, um so I've said what I'm going to say and that's all. Thanks Anna. Thank you Councilman. If if I could just very briefly as it pertains to Keys Day, here's the conversation that I have had
um with past members of this council and otherwise. I don't view Keats Day as being the most productive time to be in Tallahassee quite frankly because you have every member of a community from Monroe County and the municipalities
there in FKSA um or I'm sorry, CFK and otherwise who were there. Um, I I would much rather have you come to Tallahassee at another time. Uh, when there aren't already group meetings with certain agency heads
or AMR or Representative Mooney, as you mentioned, um, I I'd rather have a list of topics that you want to discuss with others um, that we could meet with outside of Keys Day and that's something certainly that we we should work towards in 2026. Well, with that said, let's work towards
that because we haven't done that yet. There are some very important things that need need to be done with us losing funding on um on freebie for instance. We need to be talking to DOT and we need to have a very serious conversation with them. They want to come down here and
they want to fourlane Alamrada and that's just not going to happen. But if we can go in there and we can talk them out of the same amount of money that it that it would have costed them to forlane that, then we know what our problem is and we'll be able to put our own internal transit system together
that will move our people around in our town and let the tourists flow right on by to Marathon and Key West and still we can get to the Publix if we need to or we can go down to our favorite watering hole and get back home without sitting in traffic for 30 and 45 minutes. But
that hasn't happened yet. And I was elected in November and I still haven't had a conversation with the the big guy in in DOT or anybody else. And if that's what it's going to take, then trust me, my phone is on. It's uh it's usually off
between about 12:00 and 5:00 in the middle of the night, but other than that, I'll be happy to talk to any of them, bring them to the table. Um it it's it's conversations that need to happen. It's the same conversation that needs to happen with these modular homes
and what's going on with air and we haven't had those conversations yet. So if you say now's Keys Days at least Keys Day is a day that we can walk into their office and I can put a face with a name and they can do the same and we can open we can shake hands and start opening up
that conversation. Uh, and we didn't that didn't happen last time and I hope it does next time. And I'm I'm I'm ready to have a conversation with any of them because we we know what our problems are. I know
you so wow. Well, I I'm 100% backing them. I feel I I know I've picked up the phone and called them and had no problem talking to any of them at any point in time. It's also on us to communicate to them
what our needs are, not for us to for them to just sit there and guess it. What do we want? And I think that's been a lot of the problem. And we cannot fault them for for past issues and problems. We need to move on and
uh make good decisions. And again, with Kate being on board, she's fully aware of everything very locally around here. I was fully aware of Senate Bill 180 beforehand. Um, you keeping up on everything and you
know I I don't need them to babysit me either and call me with everything that's going on. It's also on us to pay attention as sitting here as an official. So, um, with that, I
Well, um, I'm going to jump to Ryan's defense because I've called him and I'm going to take another swipe at the apple I worked on with him again and so you'll be hearing from me. But, um, um, I will I sat on the last council and I will
fault the last council myself as well that I didn't know we had the ability to talk to him. nobody did and it was just the way it was and it shouldn't have been that way. So, we have to own up for our own mistakes and shortcomings as well where we need to be more proactive.
We need to and and Ron, I'll give you your kudos that you have engaged with them. We're past managers. It just wasn't done. So, instead of of looking at the past, we need to start working more with them. We need to We have Kate
now who is here locally. So, I would like to extend their contract again just so we see that let's be more proactive. Let's do that. And you know, Florida Key Stays does have the reputation of being the party. It just does. So, I agree
that going up there outside of that time is probably a smarter move if you want to get stuff done. So, um again, I I'm all in favor for extending their contract. So, take the bus. Anybody
else have any comments or any questions for him before we let him go to bed? Well, and let's not forget that, you know, they cost us $108,000 and they brought us in over a million dollars and that's with very little communication. Yes. And so just think what we can do. Yeah.
So Ron, do you want to say anything before we let this gentleman go? No, we might have to have public comment, but other than that, I I know. Deb, did you want to say one last thing before public comment? Yes. Um, so, so, uh, Gray Robinson's has lots of, and Ryan, you can verify this
and help with that. You have lots of offices across the state. So, the the bit about sugar when when you represent us, you represent us. And we are opposed to a lot of the stuff that goes on with sugar. But that's not necessarily out of
the offices that you that we're dealing with. You they're independent office. you have a law firm that's tied to your lobby group and they're doing other things than what you do. Um, so I'm I've seen you over the years and I put
lots of the fault on our side and we I think Kate will make a big difference in our response and help towards you getting things done for us. Okay, I've got one thing to add to the list. I just thought of it. Okay. It's the local
control on vacation rental that comes up every year. Sorry. Okay, Marne, can we open? Oh, we had a reprieve last year after 12 straight sessions. Hopefully, we get another reprieve and nothing gets done this year. Oh, that would be good. Good deal. Okay, Ryan. Well, we thank you greatly.
Unless anybody has anything for Ryan, I'm going to open public comment so we can move on. Go for it. Ryan, have a good night. You all too. Thank you. Thank you. Martney, is there any public comment? Yes, there is. Uh Joe Wishmire. Yes, Joe Wishmire, Plantation Key. I
will say that when I came into tonight, I was not in favor because of things that have happened in the past. We've spent all this money and we really didn't get any benefit out of it. Now, granted, a lot of that was due
to our council and our past managers and all, but after listening to what's going on here tonight, it sounds like there's a lot more communication going on. So, I guess, you know, it's only a one-year contract. So, I guess it would
be in I would be in favor of renewing that this time for the one year and see how things go. As long as things keep progressing in a positive manner, that's one thing. But if it resorts back to the way it was in the past,
uh-uh. That's just a waste of money. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Marty, anybody else? No, ma'am. Okay. Public comment is closed. Council motion to approve. I second. That was quick. Make a motion to approve the extension
of the contract. Okay. And who was I I did the second. I did the first. He's trying to cut me. You want the first? I didn't see you. Okay. Marty, would you call the role before these two start squabbling? Okay. Who's first? Anna.
I'll let Anna go first. Council member Anna Richards? Yes. Council member Deb Gillis? Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman? No. Uh, Vice Mayor Don Horton? Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney? Yes. The motion passes 4 to1. Okay. John. Tab 19.
Yep. Tab 19. A resolution of the village council of Alamara Village of Islands, Florida, approving the final rankings and recommendations of the RFP25-06 evaluation committee for selection of a contractor for the pool resurfacing and uh facility improvements project. Authorizing village manager and village attorney to negotiate and execute an
agreement for the requested services. Authorizing village manager to execute the agreement. Authorizing village manager to expend budgeted funds and providing an effective date. Uh, you drew the short straw, huh? Yes, I did. I'm I'm with you, though. Go ahead.
We're playing a competition. Who lasts the longest? Go ahead. Whenever you're ready. All right. Good evening, mayor and council members. I'm Annie Onsgard, assistant director, Founders Park. Thank you for the opportunity to present this item tonight. So, I'm here to present
for your consideration a resolution approving the final rankings and recommendation of the evaluation committee for the request for proposals 25-06, the selection of a contractor for the pool resurfacing and facility improvement project at the Ron Levy Aquatic Center.
As you know, Founders Park, located here at 87,000 Overseas Highway, serves as the heart of our village's parks and recreation system, offering a wide range of recreational and sports amenities for residents and visitors. Within Founders Park is the Ron Levy
Aquatic Center, home to our Olympic size competition pool, originally constructed in 2001. After more than two decades of continuous use, the pool surface and surrounding deck area are showing signs of significant deterioration, and the locker room facilities are in need of
modernization for both function and cleanliness. As part of this project, we also propose adding an enclosed lifeguard office and first aid station within the current covered walkway, an essential addition for the safety, security, and
operational needs of pool personnel. As you may recall, back in November of 2023, council approved an agreement with RGS Design Consultants LLC to provide engineering, consulting, and overall project management services for the
successful execution of this project. On July 11th, 2025, the village issued RFP25-06 seeking qualified firms to provide services and materials for a range of improvements, including pool resurfacing
and deck repairs, locker room renovations, mechanical system upgrades, sports lighting and scoreboard enhancements, construction of the new lifeguard first aid station. This RFP was issued in accordance with
village p purchasing guidelines and advertised across multiple platforms including demand star the village website our social media channels and in the keys weekly a mandatory pre-bid meeting and site visit were held on August 4th and three agenda were issued
in response to questions from perspect uh prospective bidders uh by proposal deadline of September 11th we received two responsive proposals The village manager appointed a four member evaluation committee consisting
of chief building official Sheila Denincourt, founders park director Maria Bajatti, public works director AJ Inglemmyer, review engineer Robert Mather. The committee held publicly notice meetings on September 18th and 25th to review and score the proposals
evaluating qualifications, project timeline, experience, and cost. The proposals were ranked as follows with a maximum score of 420 points available. Standguard Aquatics Inc. at 370 points with a bid totaling uh
2,32,510. And then FSV Construction Company at 290 points with a bid totaling 1,823,219. So while FSV bid was lower in cost, Stand Aquatics, Standguard Aquatics received the top score based on their overall experience with public sector
aquatic projects, the strength of their proposal, and their advantage as a locally based operation. Uh tonight's resolution seeks your approval of the evaluation committee's final rankings and the recommended selection of Stanguard Aquatics, Inc. for the pool resurfacing and facility
improvement project. It also authorizes village manager and village attorney to negotiate and enter into an agreement with Stanguard and substantially the form provided in the RFP and authorizes the use of budgeted funds for this purpose.
Uh the full project cost of 2,32,510 is already included in our fiscal year 2025 2026 budget funded through local government discretionary sales sir tax. In addition, with council's acceptance of the Monroe County Tourist Development
Council FY 2026 bricks and mortar grant, the village will be eligible for 436,800 in reimbursement once the project is completed. Uh the founders park director will serve as the project leaison in coordination
with RGS design consultants. Um the pro procurement capital assets administrator Stephanie Peele will ensure all procedures align with village and grant requirements. the grants administrator um administrator Alyssa Panzer will manage all reporting and cost reimbursement
submissions. Um additionally, I'd like to note that our pool consultant Ben Ellis is on the line available tonight on Zoom. um if he's still there. Um so he's here to help any technical uh answer any technical or engineering
related questions you may have about the scope of work uh project specifications or even the construction approach. Um so with that staff respectfully recommends that the village council adopt the proposed resolution, approve the selection of Stanguard Aquatics Inc. and
authorize the village manager to proceed with executing the agreement. So, thank you. I'm here to answer any questions I can. And of course, um Ben Ellis is on the line. Anyone have questions? Don. Yeah. Did you say that somebody from our JS design is on?
Yes, sir. Ben Ellis is on Zoom. Is there um so this contract includes the design and consultant uh from RJS through the project right? Yes sir. And they will be our project manager. Yes sir.
Okay. And that's included in the cost that here already there's not another additional cost. Uh I don't believe so. Okay. No. Um um did does this price already include all of the permits that we're going to need
to get and the the stuff that we're going to have to do with the state department of health? Maybe RJS can answer that. The department of health uh fees would be a pass through. They're pretty minor. Um, I believe that you your town
building department will be the building department of record and um, Sheila could talk to us about how those fees are are handled, but I don't think the permitting fees are a huge consideration about permit fees. I'm worried about the state. Have you gotten the state the
state department of health approval? Maybe Rob can answer that. Have you? Uh, well, all the permit fees were included in the bid. They were including expected that the contractor will pay for Okay. And um Ron, you're still going
to have to negotiate this contract, right? Or is this contract just already done? I think it's pretty much already done. Mhm. Does this contract have a provision for no change orders and a firm completion date and failure to complete would be a
fine in um the contract has not been negotiated yet. Okay. We we have a form agreement that the standard agreement that we use. I mean there might be some uh some changes once we get into it with them. But the
agreement that we do have does have a time for completion. Um and it has a um liquidated damages provision um I believe under section article three of the of our standard agreement that we utilize. Okay. Um and then what was the other question about the agreement? It
seems like every time we get enter in a contract to some especially something that this big change, we get change orders and uh you know we're we we just had to have a kind of a discussion a couple of months ago about a change order on the uh generator buildings. I don't want to
have those discussions anymore. I want firm contracts that just says you they have thoroughly reviewed the the the drawings and and there's not just not going to be any change orders. And if there are change orders and it's because of something that's left off of the plans, then I think that we need to make
sure that our designers and architects and engineers go on the hook for forgetting things like that. Is that's that's just mine. But okay, other than that, I'm okay. Anybody else have anything? Deb, Anna,
Steve? No. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Uh public comment. We don't have anyone for public comment. Public comments closed. Council discussion. Are we ready to move forward? Make a motion to approve.
Do I have a second? Second. I'm not going to fight you over anymore. Yes, you are. Will you call Will you call the role, please? Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes.
And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. The motion passes 5 to zero. Okay. John, zipping along. Number 20. Yep. Number 20. A resolution of the village council of Alamara Village of Islands, Florida, approving work authorization number one with WSPUSA, Inc. for professional services for canal number 148, lower Madakumbi Key
backfilling restoration project. Authorizing village officials to implement the terms and conditions of work authorization number one. Authorizing village manager to expend budgeted funds. Authorizing village manager to execute the project agreement for work authorization number one. And providing for an effective date. Hello, Peter. Hello.
Good evening, council. So, this is a resolution approving a work authorization with WSP for the design and permitting for the village's next canal restoration project, which is at canal 148. This is the canal in between uh sea and ocean lanes on the ocean side
of lower Madakumbi. This is the canal for reference where the Madakumbi resort is. Okay. Uh so basically we've been working down our list of prioritized canals for those most in need of restoration. Um we're almost through the top 10 I believe. So canal 148 is the
next in line. It was number nine. Uh so this project would involve the organic or muck removal at the bottom of the canal and also the back filling of the canal to a depth of about 6 ft at mean low water. Same process we've gone through with the last two back filling
canals. Um, they've both been highly successful. We're finding almost immediately improved dissolved oxygen levels, increase in benthic life, searass, fish. I have some really amazing photos. I'm hoping to show it another time showing how successful these projects are. So, the the village
did include $72,000 full cost of this project in our current fiscal year budget. Uh, that's within the capital project fund and staff are recommending the passage and adoption of this resolution. Happy to answer any questions if there are any.
Anybody have anything for Peter? Deb? No. Um I Yes and no. Uh I asked about the construction and the the the possibility of grants and uh this is mostly paid 100% not 100% but mostly
paid through grants when we get that far. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. The construction would be 100% funded through grants and even the design and permitting would be eligible for reimbursement and we're anticipating uh a year in
completing this part but we have it in the contractor is too just as a stop gap. That's correct. And that's only because of the challenges with permitting right now. It should take less than a year of permitting, but with the status of the
Army Corps of Engineers and federal government, it could be a two-year permitting project. So, that's why the rate we're going, it could be more than that. Two years in there just to be safe. That's the only questions I had. Okay, Don. Uh, Pete, just thank you for what you're doing. These canals are we're cleaning
up the sins of the past and I love it and the canals are looking really good and good results. So, thank you. Thank you, Anna. I'm good, Steve. Okay. Thank you very much, Peter. Is there any public comment? No, ma'am. Oh, how disappointing.
I move to approve. I'll second. Go ahead. Morning, would you call the role, please? Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. No. I think it was Freeman.
It's a little late and I'm not hearing things right. Sorry about that. Uh, Council Member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Times two. And Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. That motion passes 5 to zero. What about me?
I'm so for you. Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Would you like to vote as well? Nah. You know what? We're getting close. How about I move to extend another 15 minutes? 10. 15. We can finish up then. We can always end early.
Okay. All right. Moving along then. 21. 21 is an ordinance on second reading. An ordinance of Alamarda village violence Florida amending chapter 66 waterways article one in general section 66-2 operations of vessels in restricted areas of the village code to create a
slow speed minimum wake zone generally located northwest of lignenic uh channel bridge off lower Madakumbi ki in the area generally known as Stark's wheel ditch providing for severability providing for inclusion in the code and providing for an effective date and Peter this started with the um
nearshore water committee and I'm very happy that I was involved in that and I think it's a great thing. So read away. Okay. Okay. Yeah. We'll just keep this brief. I think you're very well aware that due to the ongoing safety issues and concerns, the village is looking to establish this ordinance which would
create a slow speed and minimum wake zone through almost the entirety of the Starks wheel ditch. So the council did direct the staff to establish this ordinance. That was back in April of 2025. So, the Florida statutes does give the village the authority to establish
such a regulatory zone. And up to this point, we've had um nothing but overwhelming support. That's both from the public, Monroe County Sheriff's Office, FD. I have personally heard of no opposition to this. Uh only only those in favor. So, ordinance did pass
at first reading. That was by a five to zero vote. Shortly after uh that approval, we did start the permitting process for this. So, we want to get that in as quickly as possible. All the permit applications have been submitted. Those permits were would be for the four
buoys that are necessary to mark the mark the zone towing two on each side of the channel. So again, we're minimum maybe six months, a maximum a year unfortunately for the permits to come in for these buoys and staff are recommending the passage
in adoption of this ordinance on second reading. I think it's great and uh any public comment? No, ma'am. Okay. Council discussion. Motion to approve. Second. Barney.
Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. The motion passes. 5-0. She remembered me. All right, John. Last but not least. No, we've got a couple more.
They'll they'll be quick though. They should be very quick. It's a 22 an ordinance of Mara village of Islands Florida amending chapter 4 animals article 1 in general of the village code to create section 4-101 taking and feeding p foul prohibited providing for severability providing for inclusion in
the code and providing for an effective date. Uh this is an ordinance on second reading. Uh we talked about it uh at length last month. Um no changes have been made and I have not heard any uh as I mentioned before we had sent it to the county in advance and uh we've heard no objections from the county.
Okay. Any public comment? I lost my Zoom feed, so I don't believe so. Okay. Uh any anything from the council? Oh, we do. Oh, okay. You have me
Okay, go ahead. You've got three minutes. State their name, please. State your name, please. Yep. My name is Dylan Scott, uh from Kargo. I told you I was looking forward to the discussion on uh peacocks tonight. I did just want to add comment
that um you know uh I do not believe the peacocks uh serve any environmental benefit uh to Isle of Marada. Um they are a non-native species, a nuisance species to uh many residents. Um they
potentially do transmit diseases uh throughout the community. Um compete for resources with native wildlife um and also contribute, you know, they are a large um bird species that do contribute uh quite a significant amount
of droppings to our waterways. Um, I don't necessarily see the need for protections uh for this non-native species within our community, but I know uh from July's meeting uh there is a lot of community support for the peacocks. Um, but just wanted to make my public
opinion known regarding this issue. Thank you guys. Have a good night. Thank you very much. Have a good night. Um, okay. Council, any discussion? Where we at? That's it for public comment, right? Yes. Okay. So, go ahead, Deb. Motion to
approve. Second. Oh, I like that. Uh, and they've been here since the 50s. They have. So, Deb and Don. No, we we we've been around since the 50s. I think we're getting slap happy. Marty, call a roll, please.
I'm sorry. Who's this? Uh, Council Member Gillis. Oops. Yes. Council member Doug Gillis. Yes. Uh, Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. Motion passes.
Three of those up here. All right. So move. Is this Go ahead. Three left. Oh, goody. Uh 23. Tab 23 is an ordinance on second reading. An ordinance of Alamara Village, Florida, amending chapter 50, article 3 of the village code titled traffic and vehicle speed zone section
50-53 speed zones established to create a minimum speed of 20 mph for vehicles operated on Cortez Drive, providing for inclusion in the code, providing for severability, and providing for an effective date. Um it ju it literally just adds Cortez Drive to the list of um 20 mph speed limits.
Okay. Uh Marty, is there any public comment? No, ma'am. Okay. Council, any discussion? Motion to approve. Sex. Would you call the role, please? Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member C. Freiedman. Yes.
Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. And I apologize for getting giddy. It's past it's past bedtime. Oh, good. All right. Go ahead. All right. Second to last. Uh 24 is this is on first reading. An ordinance of
Alamara Village of Islands, Florida, amending chapter 30, land development regulations. Article 3, decision-making and other administrative bodies, division 3, local planning agency. Um section 30-103 of the village code relating to appointment removal terms and vacancies, providing for severability, providing for inclusion in
the code, and providing for an effective date. This um uh as council might recall, council had asked that we remove the term limit uh that required a supermajority to reappoint somebody to the LPA. Um that's what this uh this amendment does. It just strikes that
through and so the it would um we would just follow the guidelines for like all the other to make it consistent with all the other boards. Uh this was presented to the LPA um and um the LPA did re ultimately recommend um adoption.
Any public comment? No ma'am. And any council any discussion? I'd like the uniformity myself. So, yes. Move to approve. Second. So much for my comment. Go ahead. Call
the role. Vice Mayor Don Horton. Yes. And I'm sorry, who was the second? Me. Council member Deb Gillis. Yes. Council member Cia Friedman. Yes. Council member Anna Richard. Yes. And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. Motion passes five to zero. Can we have two more, John?
We've got two. No, this isn't No, we didn't add on. That was 28. Was you in consent? But was you taking the bus? Yep. That you hitchhiking or taking the bus, right? Okay. Yeah, you're good. You're approved. That was on consent. Thank you.
I'll put it on my calendar if you go ahead. Uh tab 25 is also an ordinance on first reading. It's an ordinance of Mara Village of Islands, Florida, amending chapter 30, land development regulations, article 5, schedule of uh district use and development standards. Division 7 off streetet parking, loading, and driveway standards. section
30-851 of the village code relating to backing movements or other maneuvering within a village uh within a street rightaway providing for severability providing for inclusion in the code and providing for an effective date. Uh this was also a request of the council. Um
this related to the um uh it was a broader discussion but it was ultimately born out of the discussion on anglers's reef um parking issues and uh it deals with um allowing for the backing into a
right of way with except for US1 that does not uh does not allow for uh backing onto US1. Uh currently the code allows for it for residential parking and then uh this underline would also allow it for public purposes. Um so uh purposes municipal purposes as directed
by the village. Uh this was also uh presented to the LPA at the last meeting and was uh unanimously uh um uh recommended for approval by the LPA. Okay. Uh I know you're looking at me to say approved, but I need to ask comments. I I wanted to say something about this
one. Go ahead. I just wanted to thank Jennifer for getting this done and and clearing up the record on this that we had already approved backing on the rightway and and now we've got a code that allows for something that had already been approved by the village. So, thanks for clearing that up,
Jennifer. I can't take all the credit. It was John, too. Marty, is there any comment? Yes, ma'am. Joe Wishmire. had to get in on one of them. Joe Wishmire Plantation Key.
First of all, you know, this all comes down to kind of the Anglers Reef Club, and we all know about my feelings on that. There's over 50 houses, average cost $2 million. They've got $100 million.
They can afford to get that empty lot next door to them. see if they can rent that for $500 a month or maybe if it goes up to a th000 whatever they whatever pitly amount they want to pay us. So, uh I think that since how it's a private
problem and it should be a private solution. I remember the gentleman this morning, it seems like this morning when he was talking about the green and keeping our green and keeping everything like that. I totally agree with that. And what happened to the code is the
code. Well, here we go again. You don't like the code? Let's just change it. Or so, you know, that's my feelings on that. Thank you. Thank you. And I don't think this has to do with just Angller's Way. This has to do with all the old road where the
breweries are and uh the veterinarian down there. There's people backing out on the old road 25. This is I think just to make it uniformed. Correct. Is that what we're doing? Yeah. I just I just mentioned anguish because that's what it was that discussion was what it kind of started the problem but yeah sorry but but there was a larger discussion the council had of you
know do we want to have municipal parking lots do we want and yes and until this code re uh revision is made that conversation really can't be held in any real substantive way so this has just has to do with making it uniform for the village the entire
it it opens the door for us to be able to have municipal parking and paid parking and control parking and not willy-nilly all over the place. Um it it there's a huge benefit to this and and it and it legitimizes all that parking in the arts district that shouldn't have
really shouldn't have been allowed. It's going to I'm hopeful that it helps businesses that that need to expand and can't find parking on their piece of property. Agree that that'll just I think that there's going to be an improvement to the village. So I'm I'm grateful for this
and I'd like to make a motion to approve. Does anybody else have anything to say before we have second? Second. Marty. Vice Mayor Don Horton? Yes. Council member Anna Richards. Yes. Council member Steve Freriedman. Yes. And council member Deb Gillis. Yes.
And Mayor Sharon Mahoney. Yes. That motion passes 5-0. And it's with great pleasure. Done. So no meeting Thursday, just so everybody knows. Correct. And we will be back here indeed.
December. No. Yeah. Wait, before I know it was me. I don't know if we were first still in, but I want to give you an update. Uh during the meeting, I was corresponding with some schoolboard members and they did take up the baseball field tonight and they had a revised plan and according to two members I was texted
with, that's why I was on the phone. Uh they did approve it with the revision. They did remove the second multi-use building which we had re which I guess I had recommended with y'all's approval. And uh they all and I tried to get them to move the concession stand behind from behind home plate, but they did not
approve that. So it's still behind home plate. And they've also agreed to uh renovate the first the building on the first baseline. They're going to be at their expense uh renovating the building uh on the first baseline for their locker rooms, etc. So we were looking at helping them with they've agreed to take
that, too. Well, don't we have a say where the concession stand goes? It's our property. I mean, you're you're going to have final say over everything. Yeah. So, I'd like moving it myself, but that's just me. Well, this I I was watching their I don't think they had a whole lot of discussion
and I I I think we need to I think we're just informally talking now. I'm just giving an update. Okay. It's not an action item. I'm just trying to let you know what happened while we're still on TV. So, the the discussion item for for Thursday is we just Yeah, there's no reason. Now, there's my
recommendation is we don't have a meeting on Thursday. And that's what I was saying. So, I know, but the last thing I heard is we were still having That's why I wanted to clarify that based on what happened with the school board, I don't think there's a need to have a meeting on Thursday because it's still a revised preliminary plan.
There's nothing for you to vote on. I was going to give an update on Thursday, but since I heard the information tonight, I'll just give it to you now. And there's no reason to have a meeting on Thursday. Well, we appreciate that. Thank you very much and good night.