All All right, everybody. Welcome to the November 17th Jackson Township Planning Board meeting. This meeting has been appropriately noticed according to the Open Public Meetings Act and all the appropriate forums and places and notices required. >> Madam Chairwoman, >> we'll have a roll call, please.
>> Mr. Brezie, >> present. >> Mr. Marzo, Mr. Heler, >> here. >> Mr. Rogers >> here. >> Mr. Tremor >> here. >> Miss Rose >> here. >> Mr. Weart >> here. >> Mr. Sullivan >> here. >> Dr. Campbell
>> here. >> Uh we'll have a um motion for payment of voucher for recording secretary for November 17th, please. >> So move. Sullivan. >> Second. >> You want a roll call? >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Brezie. >> Yes. >> Mr. Heler?
>> Yes. >> Mr. Rogers? >> Yes. >> Mr. Tremor? >> Yes. >> Miss Rose? >> Yes. >> Mr. Weart? >> Yes. >> Mr. Sullivan? >> Yes. >> Dr. King? >> Yes. Uh, we have some changes to the agenda. The December 29th regular meeting is
cancelled. Do we need a motion on that? Do we need a motion on the cancellation? >> Yes. >> Yes. Then we'll accept a motion, please. >> I move that we cancel the December 29th, 2025 meeting of the planning board.
>> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Any opposed? Block 10201 lot 8 more crea motor and marine LLC is
carried from December 1st to January 12th for scheduling purposes only. No notice is retired is required. We'll take a uh vote on that please. Motion >> motion Sullivan second. Heler.
>> All in favor? I >> I opposed. All right, Mr. Alfiri. Oh, you know, let me uh let me introduce uh Mr. for Brent Pullman who's our Rupa attorney and he'll be discussing the ordinance that's on the agenda for tonight for the
application. There we go. Hello. Okay. Good afternoon everybody. Uh my name is Brent Pullman. I'm an attorney with the law firm of Mandal and Barrett. Um, I've represented the township in a number of religious land use and civil rights
matters over the past five years. um including the federal action uh which gave rise to the ordinance that provides for the development of private schools
and private schools with student and residential uh housing in um the R3 zone and other zones within the municipality. as background. Um, in 2017,
the township council enacted certain ordinances um which uh serve the purpose of prohibiting um among other things, private schools in certain zones and prohibiting
residential um accessory or affiliated uses for private schools within the township. This resulted um in the Department of Justice, the United States Department of Justice instituting litigation against the
township on the basis that um there was no objective reason uh for those ordinances to be enacted. Um, specifically the Department of Justice contended that the township
could not could not articulate a non-discriminatory reason for why it was enacting those ordinances at that time. This is was uh particularly um in light of the fact that under both federal and
state law um private schools have to be permitted in those zones in which public schools are permitted. and that there can't be a differentiation between the two. Um after lengthy discovery
um which involved uh the review of the development of the ordinances, the review of communications relating to the ordinances um as well as uh emails
um and depositions. A decision was made by the township to enter into a settlement agreement uh with the United States Department of Justice uh to avoid uh what would have likely
been even more significant uh damages and potential control by either or dictation by the courts of the township's ordinances. Uh, as a result of that settlement
agreement, the township agreed to permit private schools in specific zones as well as private schools with residential uses in other zones. Um, these zones encompass both the
Pelands and the non-pineland zones. for the zones that are part of the Pinelands area. The ordinances were sent to the New Jersey Pelands Commission for their review and comment. Pinelands Commission um had specific comments
regarding density um building height um and other bulk standards that would affect the development of schools in a residential component. And so the ordinances uh were then changed to be in align with the
requirements from the New Jersey Pinelands Commission. Um pursuant to the ordinances which were negotiated with the United States government, reviewed and approved by a a
United States District Court judge. The township does permit as a matter of right the development of schools and schools with a residential component in specific zones.
Um now notwithstanding those schools and any residential component must meet certain standards such as lot size, setbacks, height, density. Um so while a applicant uh has a can
build um without needing a use variance um a school and a school with a residential component, they are still subject to the bulk standards and the requirements for these types of developments in these zones.
The application that is before the board this evening is for a property uh which is located in the R3 residential zone. U the R3, this type of development is
specifically permitted pursuant to the settlement ordinances that were enacted by federal district court judge and reviewed uh by the United States government and
adopted by the council in 2023. Um, this specific application that is before the township this e before the board this evening seeks preliminary and final major site plan approval for a two-story high school and post high school with a
dormatory. Um, there is an ancillary there is an accessory recall ancillary use of a gymnasium which is proposed for a second phase of the project. These uses um are permitted
uh by ordinance. Um the applicant has submitted an application which as I'm sure the applicant's attorney and professionals will testify appears to uh be in accordance with the bulk standards for this area for this use in this
particular zone. Um when we are hearing um applications for any type of religious land use um whether it's a school, whether it's a house of worship, whether it's a
community center, uh certainly um the public has the right and um is encouraged to participate in the process and ask all reasonable questions. And those questions are questions such as the what what will the what will the type of use be? What will the intensity
of the use be? Uh when what is the timing of the use? Questions that will relate to traffic. Questions that relate to density. Um however, the question of whether or not
a um school with a residential component is appropriate for this zone has already been answered by the township when they adopted an ordinance in 2023. as a result of their settlement with the United States government and the township passed an ordinance which said
that this is a appropriate use a permitted use within the R3 residential zone. So, as we move through this application this evening, um, of course, everyone is encouraged to ask questions of the
professionals and to get answers as to how the development will how the structure will be developed, its intensity, its the types of uses that will be there, when they will be used. um and you know and get questions regarding the compliance with state
regulations as well as the local um bulk ordinances and that's completely permissible and is is encouraged. Um, however, um, I I do want to make clear that whether or
not the whether or not the a school in a school with a dormatory component should be constructed in the R3 zone is not before this board this evening because the the governing body has already told this
board through its ordinances that this is a permitted use within this R3 zone. Madam Chairwoman, do you have any additional questions for me? And just to be clear, this ordinance was a creature of litigation with the US
federal government. Uh it was not a result of the master plan. Uh I know I've seen some of that online. It's a creature of litigation. Um and as a result, the use is permitted within the zone and I will leave it off to our
professionals and Madam Chairwoman. >> All right, we'll start tonight with our professionals. Um Mr. Cle. >> Thank you, Madam Chairman. um application for preliminary and final site plan uh involving a uh 50,600
square foot um school facility uh with um a um dormatory uh to house uh 23 um students, 22 students and one RA we'll leave with the applicant. I don't know if the RA is part one sort of part of the student population or not. Um but
that's the application before the before the board. Um, we looked at the um engineering aspects of the um of the site development and I'll give it to the applicant. They did a pretty good job as far as the um overall overall design. We did provide the applicant with some technical um revisions, tees and eyes if
you will um that I'm sure the applicant will agree to, but if there's any issue, I'm sure he'll let us know during the um during the testimony. Um we looked at the um the grading and and drainage. um no issue with the um um either either um design. The applicant should talk about
some retaining walls and the height with relation to um safety concerns and as well as confirmation that the final drainage system will be compliant with ordinance standards. We looked at the lighting and landscaping. Site lighting is um meets ordinance standards, but we
should have them have some discussion to make sure we don't have off-site glare glare impacts. um landscaping. I think the biggest concern is is buffering to the properties to the to the west and across the um across Frank Applegate Road. The rest of it is environmentally
constrained. So, some testimony from the applicant regarding um adequacy of the of the buffering that's proposed. Um the parking complies with ordinance standards. Frank Applegate Road is a county facility, so that driveway connection will be subject to review and
approval by uh the county county planning board. Um site circulation. The only thing we'd like the applicant to address is the bus loading and stacking. Um, from the exhibits that were provided, uh, the that that those um components, the bus stacking and um,
loading and unloading seem to be a little different between the plans that was submitted to the um to the board that we reviewed and the exhibit that's going to be presented to the um, uh, dur during the night. Um, solid waste, we have no issues with um, signage. I believe there was some variance
requested for for the signage. Um, however, I think that variance um request has been um been re um been removed, but I'll leave it to the applicant to um to address that. Um, one of the things I think the application needs to address is the environmental issues. Um the sanitary sewage services
uh service is proposed to be provided by on-site systems which will require um specific or additional D permitting. There are some environmental stra constraints relating to wetlands and repairarian areas. Um um buffering has been indicated to each of those those
areas. Um and we just need some confirmation from DP regarding um uh the addex we have the um the buffers provided really from from my perspective engineering wise I think the um application major questions I would have is the operations of it which isn't
really um engineering um but I'm um as far as the uh impacts to the adjacent property owners what I can read and I'll leave it to the applicant to provide testimony I'm seeing 23 three um 20 year olds um in the dormatory
facility and I can kind of remember back when I was 20 years old and some of the things were a little bit out of control. Um so just security um and um if there's going to be any access restrictions the Frank Applegate road and anything else I'll chime in.
>> Thank you. Uh, one of the things I'm going to mention to everyone tonight is that there, as you can see, the entire building is under some renovation and the microphone systems uh that are uh used are not as good as they used to be,
but they will be much better in a few weeks. But for this time, uh make sure that the microphone is held close uh so that everyone in the back can hear because the internal microphone system is not functioning. Thank you. Mr. Peters.
>> Thank you, Madam Chair. If anyone in the audience can't hear me, just say so. Put your hand up, let me know. I'm usually pretty loud. Um, our office has a report dated October 13th of 2025. Um, we'd ask the applicant to give a detailed description of the proposed uses within
the building. Um, there are some words on the architectural plans that may not be common English that folks may not understand. So, we'd ask for a description of the proposed uses throughout the building. I think Mr. Pullman and Mr. Sheay both
addressed the use issue that the use is permitted with certain standards and as we go through the report, we'll I would expect that the applicant is going to discuss compliance with the standards. Um, the site is in the conservation overlay zone, so we should hear some
testimony regarding compliance with those standards. Um, I will try not to repeat anything that Mr. Cle said. However, if if I find it important in our report, I'll just bring it up again so that the applicant knows we really want to get that testimony on the record or we're going to ask the questions
afterwards. Um, the initial submission of the plans, we brought up an issue with regards to the bus drop off zone. I believe the applicant's going to address that tonight, but that was an issue that may require relief if not complied with. Um
the signs as submitted, I believe they asked for a variance. I'm not sure if that's going to be addressed this evening. As it relates to the traffic circulation, there are a number of um comments in our report which may require
design waiverss. Um some may be simplistic, some may be necessary. So, we'll wait to hear from the applicant with regards to any waiver relief as it relates to on-site circulation.
In terms of landscaping, um there is a concern whether or not the required buffers are being provided. So, we're we'll expect some testimony from the applicant with regard to that. Mr. Cle discussed the environmental impacts on the site
and the applicant should address the outside agencies that are required for this type of approval. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right, I think we're ready for you, Mr. Alfairi. >> Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the board. Salvatore Alfuri, Clearary
Gobi, Alfian, and Jacobs on behalf of the applicant. uh your board professionals did a pretty good job of summarizing many of the issues that we're going to cover this evening. We I just wanted to bring the board up to speed on a few of our points that our plans that we have this evening. We have
our engineer planner with us who will go first. We have Brian Dubo, our environmental consultant who will testify second. We also have an the rabbi who will testify about operations. We have an architect and we have a traffic consultant. So I think through
those five professionals, we'll be able to cover all the issues that were raised in the board professional reports and hopefully um any concerns that the public may have. Uh we we have reports from your board planner and board engineer has indicated. We also received a report today from CME relating to uh
landscaping which we'll be prepared to address and I know we've received also a fire and police uh memo. um as indicated are we we identified at the beginning of the application that we would need variances for signage but those those details haven't been worked out so we're
not going to ask for variance relief of any kind for signage and therefore we don't believe there are any variances associated with the application there will be some design waiverss that Mr. McFarland would get into when during the course of his testimony uh Mr. McFarland, we do have um exhibits that
we presubmitted that we're going to hand out to the board and we're also, I assume, going to be on the screen when Anthony brings them up. And that's enough for introduction. We're going to ask that Mr. McFarland be sworn in so we can qualify him. All right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing
but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Sure. It's Graham McFarland, MAC F A R L A N E. professional engineer, professional planner f certified municipal engineer testified before this board many times and previously been qualified offering both engineering and
planning testimony in support of the application >> and the board accepts your credentials. >> Thank you. >> I'm going to hand out this package. I'm going to ask if you could pass them down, please. >> I believe there's enough for all. If not, I have I have more. So, Graham, um,
now that you've been qualified, can you, um, do you want one of the exhibits brought up so you could identify where this property is? >> Oh, yes, Anthony has brought up, uh, exhibit A1, which is an aerial display of the subject property. Uh, this shows most of the property. It shows the portion of the property that is going to
be developed. Uh, the site is located on Frank Applegate Road. The site has a total land area of about 24 and a half 24.8 8 acres something something uh like like that plus or minus. Uh the site is occupied by freshwater wetlands and
riparian buffer. Uh you can see this doesn't work on a new screen does it? You can see the exhibit shows furthest to the right of the exhibit you can see a heavy blue line which is the actual stream corridor of the uh
tributary of the Matita. >> Thanks Anthony. This dark blue line is the actual stream channel, stream corer of the south branch of the Matita River. Uh the next line we show is the wetland line here
and then an anticipated wetland buffer here. Then a final line we show is a riparian buffer which is 300 ft as measured from the top of bank of the of the stream. The uh the wetlands have been field delineated by Brian Deo and
then an application has been submitted to the NJ for letter of interpretation which is a document that will confirm both the location and the resource value and the buffer width of the of those wetlands. Uh we are confident that a
50-ft buffer will be provided. Brian will provide some more testimony about that. The riparian buffer, the 300 foot riparian buffer is a little more straightforward. uh the state has maps that identify a list of category one waters which the south branch of kitok
is identified as one. So again that is a 300 foot buffer from the top of bank of the stream to that line. So when we map those areas we end up with the only portion of the site that's developable is right about six acres up here in this portion of the site. Uh the site is kind
of you know is kind of U-shaped. It is comprised of lots one and lots three. This is lot two in the middle middle of the uh middle of of those two properties. So we're proposing to develop only the portions of the property which are classified as wetlands or are not uh encumbered by
those environmentally constrained lands. Anthony you can go to A2. >> Just real approximately what percentage of the entire site can be developed and >> it's about 25%. >> So the remaining 75 would be encompassed by either conservation easements or other types of incumbrances. So they
can't be disturbed. >> Correct. And we do not have any disturbance proposed to the riparian buffer, to the wetlands buffer or to the wetlands uh on on this application. Anthony, you can go to A2 next. So A2 is a color display of the site
plan that we have submitted in support of the application. Uh you can see that this plan shows the shows the proposed building. It shows the access proposed to Frank Applegate Road with one uh driveway uh you know one two-way driveway serving all entering and
exiting traffic movements. It shows a layout of the parking field. It shows uh areas dedicated for storm water management. One, two, three separate areas. It shows the uh the main building which will contain the uh the boys high school and the higher learning
institution in one building. It also shows the indoor gymnasium that is proposed in this portion of the building. We have an outdoor basketball court and then we will also have some open space that would also be available for recreation uh purposes for use of
the students on the premises. The subject property is located in the R3 zone and also within uh what's termed an R3 overlay zone. The R3 zone allows primary and secondary schools. The overlay zone then allows higher learning
institutions and dormitories for properties that are located on certain roads of which Frank Applegate road is identified as one of those uh those roads. So this project does comply with ordinance requirements and is rightfully here in front of the uh in front of the planning board. I would I have
classified this application uh since we we actually have you know three uses that are occurring on the property. We have the uh the boys high school for grades 9 through 12. We have the higher learning institution for young men who have already graduated high school and
then we have the dormatory which is associated with the higher learning institution. So in my in my opinion both the uh the high school and the higher learning institution would be classified as principal uses and a dormatory would meet the definition of an accessory use
in this particular application. Um, just to look at that a little little closer, the ordinance is very clear on what an accessory use is. And just reading from the definition section of the local ordinance, accessory use is a use of land or of a building or a portion of a
building or a structure or portion of a structure customarily incidental and subordinate to the principal use, building or structure. Uh in this particular application, the dormatory would not exist on this property if there were no higher learning institution. Clearly making that an
accessory use to the principal use. So I think that that test is satisfied. The ordinance does put some specific standards on the um on these facilities which will all be adhered to. Uh briefly, the ordinance does require an
annual reporting to be provided. It does require frontage on one of the identified streets which again Frank Applegate Road is one of them. It does require compliance with dimensional standards of the lot. Uh same as in the underlying zone which the application
complies with. It does apply standards for building coverage which the application complies with. And it does apply standards to building height and location of parking areas and access driveways again which the application does comply with. So the so the project is in full compliance with the zoning
again in the uh of the R3 zone, the standards for for secondary schools and the additional standard for the u the dormatory as an accessory to the higher learning institution. Uh also we've already had some
discussion by Mr. Pullman. But you know since this project does provide education within a religious institution, it is protected by uh by Rupa federal law which ensures that religious institutions and practices are not unduly burdened by zoning or land use provisions or land use board
actions. I think that is um pretty pretty clear at this uh at this time. So again the application is to uh is to develop this site with one single building containing two stories. Uh it has a foot a I'm sorry a total floor area of about 50,300 square feet. Within
this building will be um 22 dorm rooms for the for the uh young men who will be residing on the premises. One dorm room um dedicated to a counselor overseeing the students in the higher learning
institution. There will be six classrooms that are that are used that are used for both the high school and the higher learning institution somewhat you know somewhat shared but the uh the rabbi will discuss a little more detail about that. There are also some
associated uh spaces inside the building which include two separate bay medashes offices dining hall and other support rooms for both for again for both the high school and the higher learning institution. The building height is proposed to be
right about 30 feet to the flat roof where 35 ft is permitted in the zone. Uh access to the site Frank Applegate Road with a single two-way two-way drive. Buffers are required along side and rear property lines where the property butts
residential uses. Uh so we have buffering on side property line here. Um, we do not have any specific buffers shown. Again, this this property is kind of U-shaped and and continues down, you know, down around here. We do not show
any buffering proposed on the on that um east property line because all of this property is consumed by riparian, you know, wetlands wetlands buffer or riparian buffer. No development proposed down there. I don't think there's any benefit of imposing some some buffer restriction. And there's actually, you
know, several hundred feet of of natural vegetative buffer that will be provided. Uh we also have buffering shown along side property line with with lot two in accordance with ordinance requirements. Mr. Peters does Mr. Peters does point
out in his letter that buffer is also required along with this keep pinning it. Buffer is also required along Frank Applegate road and uh we will revise the plan to comply with the buffering requirements along Frank
Applegate road. We will make a a slight modification to this stormwater management basin so we can get the buffering along the front of the site as well. So the site will be fully compliant with with the buffer requirements of the ordinance. As shown on this plan, we have uh 80
parking spaces. Right now, your ordinance does only require 40 parking spaces to be provided. However, when we worked with our client and the architect and we developed this building footprint that they had the vision for and we developed the layout of the site, uh,
you know, we ended up having some space available for additional parking spaces. And we talked to the client about it several times and came to the same conclusion that they said, "Well, you know, if we can get those additional spaces, why don't we just build them on site?" they have no problem spending uh you know a little extra to get
additional parking on site and that way it will give them plenty of parking for any additional events outside of the normal function of the uh school or the higher learning institution such as orientations or PTA meetings or you know other similar events. So the so the
application does have more parking spaces than are required by ordinance. Again we have about 80 we have 80 parking spaces in total proposed where only 40 are required by uh by ordinance. Boston will be provided uh for the high
school boys on a daily basis when the school is in operation from Sunday to Friday. Uh the enrollment of the of the school will be about 160 high school age students you know 9th to uh 9th to 12th grades. Uh the drop off for the high
school students will require most likely four possibly five buses to make drop off and pickup. Uh we do anticipate that drop the drop off will will be staggered from 7:30 to 7:45 for three buses and then 7:45 to 8:00 a.m. for the next
three buses. So there will never be more than three buses on a site at any given time for for drop off purposes. Pick up at night will be 8:30 p.m. for grades 9 and 10 and 9:30 p.m. for grades 11 and 12. So the same thing, half the students
picked up at 8:30, half the students picked up at 9:30. The uh the higher learning institution uh will have 22 dorm rooms with three students each. So that's 66 students enrolled in a higher learning institution. They will reside on campus
and they will not be permitted to have cars. So there will be no cars associated for th those young men who are uh residing at the um at the facility. >> Uh this >> the applicant stipulates to that. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> This plan does allow for a drop off air
drop off area uh to accommodate bus loading and unloading right in front of the right in front of the school by the by the main entrance. Uh our opinion is that the language in the ordinance, you know, clearly uh addresses that bus loading and unloading shall occur in
areas that are not affected by other traffic movements, do not interfere with other traffic movements, does not require the uh the boys who are entering or exiting a bus across any traffic lanes. And I believe that this plan complies with that requirement because the again all bus loading and unloading
will occur in this you know in this plaza area in front of the in front of the school. So I believe that it does comply with ordinance requirements. Uh there has been been some some discussion we had with your professional staff whether that space that really can
accommodate three buses is large enough or if it does need to accommodate four buses. If the board does make a determination that we have to accommodate four buses, we do have a a plan here tonight uh that shows how we would accommodate those four buses. So, we can talk about that a little bit
later after we um go through the application a little bit. Uh touching on uh the environmental aspects, I I spoke about the wetlands, the wetlands buffer, the riparian, and how there is no disturbance, no impact or post from any of those areas. The
only portions of the site where work is proposed are classified as as uplands um and not regulated by by the D for those particular uh particular matters. Uh there is a past history of dis of some uh illegal disposal of um solid waste
that occurred on the site material which is uh term sheamos which is religious text and materials in the form of printed documents. uh former owner of the site was a gentleman by the name of Rabbi Abadi. Rabbi Abadi had buried some sheamos on this property in I believe it
was like 2015 2016. He did that without any approvals. Uh he was burying burying and disposal of those properties had had dug holes and and buried in several locations on the on the site. Uh he got found out by the D. He got some
violation notices went through a process with the D. uh all that material has been was removed and cleared from this particular site and there was a stipulation of dismissal uh from the D issued in April of 2017 closing the case fully addressed
satisfied with no further no further actions required. I can also indicate that we have um conducted a series of test pits and soil borings on the site as part of our our site investigations. So we have conducted a total of eight test pits on the site and four soil
borings for geotechnical purposes and we did not encounter any of those materials uh in those 12 excavations or soil borings that we encountered. So I would believe that any of that material that was on site had again has been properly removed and disposed of of properly
where where it's supposed to be. Public water will be extended to provide both portable and and fire service water. There's no water man available along Frank Applegate road. The nearest water is available on Jackson Mills Road. We haven't yet developed the plans
for those off-site utility improvements, but I think it's about 4,000 ft plus or minus to get from this site up here over there to Jackson Mills Road. Uh the applicant is committed to making those improvements so that we can have uh city
public water and city available fire service for both the on-site fire protection and for and for fire suppression system that are needed for this type of building. uh sewage disposal will be provided by on-site septic disposal fields that will
be designed in accordance with applicable regulations by the uh the state code for septic and what's also termed as a Egyptian discharge permit. Um any application that is seeking to dispose of more than 2,000 gallons a day has to go to the D for for that permit.
Again, that's that's called an Egypty's uh New Jersey pollutant discharge elimination system, an Egyptian permit. Uh, so this applicant will have to obtain that Egypt's permit as part of the uh the project. Anthony, if you can go ahead to uh A9 for me real quick
while I'm on that subject. So A9, this is a map that shows uh currently existing regulated Egypt discharge permits in the municipality. You can see the municipal boundary is about here. This overlaps into
Manchester Township a little bit, Lakewood Township a little bit. You can see all of these all of these brown orange dots are sites that have this same permit that we will be making the application for. So the point is that it's uh it's not anything out of the ordinary. It's it's a permit for which a
D has specific set of standards and regulations to be followed. And of course, the applicant will be required to comply with that regulation in its entirety. Uh, we do have a couple of what I think are very um minimal design waiverss that
are requested. Anthony, maybe just go back to A2 for me real quick and I'll go through those. And again, the wa waivers are just uh, you know, design. I always call them technicalities where there's a small deviation requested. Uh first one deals
with the need to provide curbing for all parking areas right at this portion of the site where we have the basketball court meeting uh some parking spots. Instead of putting a curb that could be a tripping hazard or frankly was going to give me a little challenge with making the gradient work. We have a
series of parking bumpers along those I think it's nine parking spaces that that are against the basketball court. So instead of curve, we have parking stops there. Uh the second waiver we're requesting, Anthony, maybe zoom. Anthony, maybe zoom in there. Anthony,
if you can zoom in here a little bit for me on the basketball court. Perfect. So you can see for these parking spaces here, we just have parking bumpers instead of instead of a curb. Uh we also have a very small painted island here instead of a curbed
island. Uh again for the same reason I it just was a lot easier just to have a painted island there instead of a curved island. Also allows a little extra room for the loading and unloading that will that will occur uh here for deliveries to the dining area and just looking for
that waiver to not have to provide an island in that location. Um I think Mr. Peters also points out which which we deal with all the time in this municipality is a question about um you know no parking along major circulation drives the ordinance doesn't allow that
and our opinion our representation many applications has always been that that language is really intended to apply to shopping centers and not not a single use project like this where it is it is common it happens all the time where you know there's only one driveway drive aisle so of course we're going to have
parking along that drive aisle So just to be safe, we're asking for a design waiver of that particular condition if the board feels it is it is necessary. Uh, of course, uh, this plan does not show sidewalk along a site frontage. Ordinance provides for one of
one of two requirements to be satisfied. Either the applicant would install the sidewalk or pay the pedest to the pedestrian fund. As usual, we'll let the board determine how they feel about the need for sidewalk along Frank Applegate Road. you know, we like sidewalks. >> We'll be guided by whatever uh the board
would like us would like us to do. >> And keep in mind, we do have two portions. We do have this portion. We have the other portion down along on the other side of lot two. Um which I really don't think there's any benefit of sidewalk there, but again, it's entirely up to up to the board.
Uh your ordinance also requires a concrete driveway apron driveway apron for all driveways. I just don't think it's warranted where we have asphalt pavement to asphalt pavement on a non-residential application like this. So, we ask for that that waiver. And
then the last one is a landscaping around the uh the trash enclosure. Trash enclosure is located right back there out of the p public view close to the building. So, we're ask I I don't think there's any benefit or purpose to provide landscaping in that area. So asking for that waiver of having to
provide landscaping around the uh around the trash enclosure. Uh you can also see on this plan that the the project does propose a fire access emergency access lane fully around the building so that emergency vehicles can enter the site full access all the way around the
building and get back out to Frank back out to uh to Frank Applegate Road. Uh this plan was reviewed by the fire commission and uh they did have some comments about where landscaping should be should be placed. Of course, we'll comply with
with that. And they had some some uh suggestions for where fire hydrants will be provided and we will of course comply with that. Uh and then they asked for um you know a a Knox padlock for for a uh a
gate on the emergency access road on Frank Applegate road and we of course will comply with that. Uh we also of course have have comments from both professionals the engineer and the planner. They they both uh
summarized their comments and I think between their testimony and and what I've offered I've covered pretty much everything that is pointed out in their letters. Uh we don't take any exception to any of the comments. Just let me double check.
So let me check Mr. Peter's letter because he sometimes could get pretty specific. Uh we do have one ground mounted sign proposed front of the site here which I think we right now we show it as 20 feet. Ordinance requires it to be set back 25
but we we are going to set it set it back 25 ft. So that is going to uh comply with ordinance requirements. Uh Mr. Peters in his letter did question whether signs are permitted or not permitted in the uh in the R3 zone.
Uh based upon my re research, a sign is permitted for the school in the R3 zone. I think that is pretty clear by uh by ordinance. >> That will be an address sign. >> Uh site identification sign >> number street address sign.
>> Yes, a site identification sign. Uh we have it I think it's 6 feet by 5t 30 square feet. Based upon that size, it has to be set back 25 ft from the from the rightway. So that's what we will comply with. Uh I talked about the buffers.
Uh Mr. Cle commented on the lighting. Our plan right now doesn't really don't h didn't show the building mounted lights on this initial submission. Of course, there will be there will be some buildup mounted lights at every uh at every doorway and we have to add lighting to this plaza or courtyard
area. We don't didn't have that on this initial submission. Of course, that will be that will be provided. Uh the project is not being built in two phases. There was originally some thought about it being phased, but our client has determined there's no need to build it in two phases. So, we're not
asking for approval of any phasing. Uh, some more detailed discussion, a statement of operations will be provided by the rabbi who will be overseeing the school. And with that being said, I think that I am done for the moment.
>> I just have some follow-ups that we want to make sure we cover. Um, first, can you just generally describe how the storm water management is going to work? I know we're you're stipulating that it will comply with the um storm water management regulations with both the
township and the state, but just generally describe how it would operate. >> Correct. What we have proposed on site here, the site has a uh there is a drainage divide on site. So, some of the some portion of the site goes towards Frank Applegate Road, the rest of the site goes back towards the stream
corridor. Um the building building of rooftop runoff will be handled by an underground recharge system that will be located underneath the parking lot. The rest of the site will be collected by a a series of inlets and then piped to the various detention basins. They're called
smallcale infiltrations nowadays that we have. Based upon current storm water management rules, they can each only have a certain contributory drainage area. That's why we need to have multiple uh multiple SSIBs on a property. So you can see we have one, two, three of those. Uh this one will
have a connection to the existing county drainage system in Frank Applegate Road. The other two will work uh in series and then have an outfall back to uh back to the stream corridor. And the township does have uh does have requirements that
stipulate the applicant to uh to provide uh you know deed restrictions for uh maintenance and ownership and management of of the facilities and they'll all those documents will be filed and and um comply complied with all t requirements.
>> Um can you describe uh the statute for EV parking spaces and whether we're going to comply with that statute and where and where they're located? Yes, we'll comply with the EV parking. We have the EV parking spaces located uh right over here. You can see um we've
learned from dealing with the local fire department, they always want the EV parking spaces located farther away from the building. We used to try to put them, you know, close to the building, either either up here or up here. But, um the fire department continually tell we don't want them close to the building in case there's an incident. So, so they
are located uh down there. I think we have I think it's four that we need for this project. My memory is correct. Uh we have three three provided on this project which is which satisfies the statute. >> You discussed with the board early on
the fact that we need the NJ D approval for the letter of interpretation for wetlands and you discussed the water approval which would be the Jackson MUA. Correct. >> Correct. >> And then what and then you also discussed the Nypties permit which is
also D approval. We have Ocean County Planning Board. You also mentioned are there any other outside agencies that will review this application before it could be constructed? >> Uh Ocean County Soil Conservation District, we have to get a plan certification plan certification from
them. Uh Ocean County Health Department will review the application. Um I think that's it. There's a reference in the CME report that I referred to at the beginning that updated November 17th about whether a 50 foot perimeter buffer
is required as opposed to the 35 that we're providing. Can you clarify uh why we believe we comply with the ordinance? >> Yes. Well, that that 50oot buffer applied to houses of worship. Um it does not does not apply to schools or or higher learning institution. This is not
not a house of worship. Uh so this application uh just ju it just kicks back to the standard buffer requirements in the ordinance uh which requires a 35- ft buffer for for a building having more than 50,000 square feet of floor area. So that that is what we have provided.
>> There's also um I know there was some comments or questions about the 300 foot buffer that's being proposed versus what some believe might be a 600t buffer. Can you explain why that 600 is not applicable? Uh sure. There are other
portions of town and specifically the Pinelands portion of the town does have a more stringent uh buffer requirement. Uh properties that are in the Pinelands have have both a a 300 foot wetland buffer. Then there's a 300 foot buffer in addition to the wetland buffer. That
only relates to properties that are in the Pinelands. This property is not in the Pineelands. Uh so this property is bound by the 300 foot category one riparian buffer which is the the strictest buffer uh that the state has. >> Um and you did indicate that you would
comply as a condition of approval with all of the technical comments contained within the board professional reports. >> Correct. Um, you also discussed the waiverss, but I just wanted to get on the record that um, although you considered the minor, it's is it your testimony that the lit literal
enforcement of the ordinance provisions would either be impractical or exact undue hardship and therefore the waiverss are justified? >> Yes. >> And that waiver standard is a lesser standard than what a variance would require. Correct. >> Correct. >> That's all the testimony of Mr.
McFarland. One of the things you mentioned uh was sidewalks and we've been trying on this board uh for the sake of neighborhoods and safety to uh make sure that uh sidewalks are in curbs and sidewalks are installed across the
entire property for the uh benefit of the neighborhood. >> So miss >> we can stipulate to that >> the entire frontage. Correct. Is there any wetlands that would impact our ability to install a sidewalk? >> Well, there there are there are uh we we
could apply for the permit and if we're successful in getting please get it fine. >> Then we will install the sidewalk. If we cannot get the permit, then we'll make the contribution. >> Thank you. >> But there are areas where we clearly can put sidewalk. Right. It's just >> Yes. The portion the portion of the site
that is that is being developed right here is not are not not impacted by the wetlands or or wetland buffers. The other portion of the site down here is impacted by wetlands. But we can uh make the application and if we get the permit to build the sidewalk, thank you.
>> Build the sidewalk. >> Uh any members of the board have any questions for this gentleman? >> Yes, ma'am. Uh when it comes to let's start with the fire department access, >> Mr. Tremor. >> When it comes to the fire department access, is that secondary access going to be paved or is it going to be grass? >> Now, right now we have it uh gravel.
>> Gravel. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Suit suit suitable to support emergency vehicles. >> Gotcha. And you said you had a plan to put hydrants connected to city water, but it's not been approved or planned by MUA yet? >> Uh not. We have not submitted plans to the MOA yet for the for the water extension. We have had a couple
discussions with them. They know our intent, but we have not yet developed those plans for the off-site water main extension. Is there a backup plan in case that doesn't go through? >> No. >> When it comes to the LOI, you is there an active LOI right now? >> There is.
>> There is. >> Yes. >> Application, not per notification. So, there's an application to the >> application has submitted to the D. I think it was March of last year, but again, Brian Deo submitted that application. He's here and he can talk about the specifics of the LOI application. >> Okay.
>> And then my last question was about the septic. You said there how many total occupants of the building is there going to be? >> Uh we're going to have six we uh 66 uh the higher learning students that will be residing in the building and about 160 students and then I think it's
about 20 or 25 staff members that will be utilizing the facility. >> So the plan would be to have a septic on site. >> Correct. >> Where would that field be in that plan? >> The uh disposal fields are going to be back here. We're probably going to need two, it looks like from preliminary design, we're going to need two disposal fields because there are some
limitations on how big the fields can be, how how long the pipe runs can be and and things like that. So, we're going to have two disposal fields back in this area. >> Okay. So, we do we do have room available on the site. That's why we have some open space back here and left room for for those disposal fields.
Thank you. And my my last question was in the uh in the environmental impact statement, there was a comment about um that there's there's still pending applications that need to be approved for the EIS to be complete. Correct.
>> Well, the the EIS summarizes the permits and approvals that are required for the project. >> So that's why the that information is presented in the EIS. Okay. Thank you, >> Madam Chair. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Mr. So on the subject, I was actually
going to wait until the environmental person got up and uh knowing the area and how we have to allow something like this there. Um, something I haven't done too often. I'd like the applicant to submit
for a letter of no concern from the D to specifically address the septic system if they're happy with it, the habitat, the effect of runoff on wells and other properties, the effect of the wetlands and surrounding waterways with the heat and
the buffers along with, you know, I know Ocean County Health has to approve the septic. I understand that the D has to look at it too. I think having two checks on it and two letters of no concern are important. I'd like the
applicant to agree to getting that letter of no concern from the D listing all these concerns privately right on it. Each concern on it list it and have them say no concern to it. If you cannot get a letter of no concern from them, you must come back in front of us. Would
you stipulate to that? I I personally have no experience getting getting a letter of no concern from the D. My understanding is a D has different divisions that regulate different activities. Uh this project as it sits right now, my my uh opinion is
that the only uh action the only two actions we need from the D are issuance of the LOI that confirms the wetlands and the Nypties permit from the D. Uh, I I've never seen a letter of no concern of of such issued by the D and and I'm not not familiar with any process to
obtain one. So I I can't in in good faith say that I can obtain one. >> That that's what you're saying. I respect that. And over many years on land use boards, I know they've been asked for and asking for it isn't a sin. You can ask for it. If they want to tell
you they can't do it, that's something else. but to ask for it. Would the applicant be willing to ask for it and if do give it only come back with a letter of no concern or come back in front of us. So I think that that's important because there's a lot of factors here. It's not just the septic
tank. It's not just the runoff. It's just not the buffers. There's so many in this in this area that it I think we need some lack of cooperation even though it may be a double check from Ocean County Health for the septic system and the D. And I I think to get
that all listed and put out there in front of them. Now, if they don't want to do that, I understand that, but then bring that back to us. But the other thing is I do understand you would probably not get any that at all or even from Ocean County Health or any other outside agencies any letter of no
concern until after an approval because they want to look at the complete data that's given to them, not just what you're presenting, but they want to know what was approved. Now, I think it's a fair question to ask. one, will the applicant supply that question, word it like that to the D, make sure our
professionals get a copy of it, and two, if it comes back with a concern that you come back in front of us. >> And and and as I sit here tonight, I I cannot agree to that request because I'm I'm not familiar with the process. I've never seen or heard of it. Um, so I can't agree to something that I'm that I'm unsure of.
>> I can I can respect that, but if they can't agree to it, bring us back the letter that they can't agree, but make the submission for it at least. What is the problem in making the submission? >> Your question had had two prongs to it. I would I would be a lot of prongs. >> I would be happy to make the submission.
Uh I cannot agree to a condition that makes us come back to the board if we don't get a letter that may not be possible to obtain because the D has no possibly has no procedure for it. >> Okay. If the D does not have a procedure, that would explain why. But a D does it and comes back with a concern.
Would the applicant be willing to stipulate he'll come back in front of us over it and address it? >> Um before we finalize that, can we just have Mr. Dubo testify to and make sure we get his input and then we can we can respond fully to your request. >> Well, the odds are with the
environmental person speaking I'll probably get lost in half the conversation, but my question remains. >> Yeah, understood. And I'll we'll ask him the same question. So, but I just before we finalize the response, I want to get his input. >> Thank you. Anyone else from the board?
Thank you. Come to our professionals now, please. Thank you. >> Um just just real quick, um you indicated you're going to be providing additional buffering uh to the residential area on adjacent to or on the opposite of Frank Applegate
>> along Frank Applegate road. Yes. um design exception. I'm seeing the generator pads um in in the um 35 foot buffer and I think I can't site the ordinance section, but I think um there's um regulations that prohibit
activities, structures, that type thing in in a residential buffer. I think any comment on that? >> Yes, you're you're correct, Doug. I in fact, I did overlook that when I talked about the waiverss. Um we do have we do have uh two backup generators that are
provoke that are proposed uh in this portion of the site uh with the CMU uh enclosure. Uh they they would be uh natural gas generators uh with enclosures to limit the noise that would uh conform to state and local ordinance
requirements. Uh they're located here so that the run to the building is as short as possible frankly to keep the cost more reasonable. uh the further the further back these get the lights after the upsized adds a lot a lot lot more cost to uh the cost of these generators and the power lines you know is what my
my client and the uh the developer tells us. Uh and again they will have noise abatement so that they comply with noise standards of the state and of the municipality. >> Thank you. Um the curb stops adjacent to
the um the basketball court with all the curbing throughout the site. Why not put Kirby there, too? >> Well, I just it it it I'd rather have the bumpers. It just makes the grading work a little bit easier between that basketball court and that adjacent parking area. If you tell me I'm crazy and think it's a terrible idea, I can
put the curbing in and put some depressions in it to allow the water to run off the basketball court into that parking area. But I I thought it was such an insignificant portion of the site. It's it's nine parking spaces against the basketball court. But but if that bothers you for some reason, I'll put code there.
doesn't bother me that much where I would require varants. Um, but I I do think they're a tripping hazard. I think you mention you didn't want to put curb in because it's a tripping hazard. >> I I've asked for the waiver and and you you get to >> and gentlemen, if you just talk into the
microphones. >> I have another question. >> Question. >> Sorry. Um and um the lights will be shielded. They designated to go off at a certain time. >> Yes, we haven't developed that in full
detail, but yes, we we will agree to work with you to develop a lighting plan so that we will just have a a minimal level uh overnight for security purposes, but the bulk of the lighting would would operate would would turn off at um I would say at 11:00 at night. And
the only other question um proposals for on street parking restrictions as well as um you know gated access. >> We are we are not proposing a uh a gated access. Uh RA Rabbi who oversees a school is going to talk about the
security a little bit but this is not uh site is not proposed to be gated right now. >> Okay. And um on street parking >> uh on street parking on Frank Applegate road >> on Frank Applegate. >> No, we're not proposing any parking on Frank Apple. I don't I don't think the
county allows parking on Frank. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Madam Chair, >> Mr. Bzie. >> Yeah, I have one question. I brought up the septic system. I know there's probably going to two agencies looking at it, Department of Health and D. Um
what is your schedule for maint? I know on your storm water, you have to give a manual and everything to the township. They got it. What is your projection for maintenance and inspections? Is that a licensed person inspecting that system regularly? And are they going to be on call? Are there alarm systems on it that
is not functioning properly? Is that going to be installed? The answer is yes. Yes, and yes. Um I know I know Mr. Brussi, you're familiar with some of these requirements. some of the other other board members may not may not be as much but the D over the last 15 20 years has gone through a process of uh
of reviewing and approving what are called advanced treatment units. A lot of it was driven by the pine lands but then you know went to the D as well and the technology now is so much better than it was was years ago in regards to the the sewage disposal. um how
effective those those units are and different units. There are there are a bunch of units that are now approved by the D have been have been gone through the the whole process. Uh the design process for them is way easier than it used to be, you know, 15 20 years ago. What happens now is we call up one of
these manufacturers and there's about 15 different ones you can utilize. We call up one of these manufacturers. Hey, we got this nice school 6,000 gallons a day. give me a schematic for what type of advanced treatment system I can use, what the effluent, you know, what the removal is going to be, what the discharge level is going to be, and
they'll pull up and they'll say, "Okay, this unit is certified by the D for 6,000 gallons a unit. You need this tank, you need that tank, you need that type of media, and if we size the disposal field, and the thing works, it goes to the D." And yes, there are processes where the owner has to
contract with the installer has to sign a maintenance agreement. The DP has to has to do monitoring. The D comes out and does testing for effluent standard to make sure the systems are functioning in accordance with the adopted standards and the requirements of the permit. So
the answer is yes. There are a lot of uh checks and balances in place nowadays to ensure that the systems are first of all designed properly and then second maintained and working properly. I understand that and yes, you checked all the boxes on that. The one and I'm not sure the law on that. I got a couple of
lawyers up here that might know it not there. Do you have to have a licensed person to maintain or keep records of that septic system on site or recording? >> They don't have to be on I mean they don't reside on site, but they're the ones that have to oversee the the
collection of the epsilent, the submission to the certified lab. So the answer is >> they be on call and they'd be the one certifying it daily and so forth. Somebody who's licensed and qualified does have to submit the report into the DDP on a regular basis reviewed by the DP. >> Mr. Peters.
>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. McFaren, thank you for your testimony. Do you have a copy of our report handy? >> Um, page nine, number two just deals with curb radi throughout the site. I didn't hear you touch on that. I just wanted to verify you can comply with
that. >> Yes. Uh, you said page nine. >> Page nine, number two. >> Page nine, number two. Uh, curb return radium not less than 15 ft for all right turn movements is what you asked for. Um, yeah. I mean, the comments, frankly,
was a little a little vague to me. I wasn't sure exactly where you uh where you think it applied, but the short answer is yes, I'm going to comply with it. Thank you. Um, on page 12 under miscellaneous, um, the plans indicate phasing. Um, are
you the right witness to start the conversation about phasing? >> Yeah, there's there's no phasing proposed. >> No phasing. >> Phasing is taken out of the taken out of the project. >> Um, I need to go back to the signs on page 8, comment C1. Um, we've talked
pretty quick about the signs and while I I have to tell you from a planning and engineering perspective, I don't take any exception to having a sign out in front of the site so that people know where the building is. I just want to make sure whether or not
this board needs to grant a design waiver for it. I don't believe it does or because the uh I'm going to call it the you know the the new ordinance uh 20 244-46 uh permitted accessory uses of buildings and structures. I'm reading from
paragraph B. Uh then then item 10 signs. So permitted accessory use of buildings and structures is signs >> subject subject to the requirements of 207 >> subject to requirements of 207. Correct. And 207 says our sign has to be uh for a certain area. has to be set back a
certain distance which we're going to comply with. >> So again, I'm back to my comment C1 in 207B6 says groundmounted or monument sign shall be permitted for professional office uses in certain zones. Doesn't
appear they're permitted in an R3 zone. Would you agree? Uh, I agree that that sentence says it may or may not be permitted in the zone, but my opinion is that this ordinance uh that says R2, R3, and R5 zones can have signs allows me to have a sign.
Thank you. Last comment. Um, in the submitted EIS, um, in chapter 7, the other required approvals, it lists, um, Jackson MUA preliminary tenative and final. And I'm not sure if
that's just for water. >> Well, it would be it would be for it would it would be uh just for water at this time. Sewage sewage is the on-site disposal. >> It doesn't appear in that list that there's a D requirement for the septic system. >> No, I think when we wrote that report
last year, we uh we were not certain that uh D approval was going to be required. So when the time's right, we can ask for just an updated sheet. >> Correct. Thank you. That's all I have for Mr. Mcfallen, Madam Chair. Thank you. >> I got another question, >> Mr. Brezie.
>> Ladies and gentlemen, it it's very important that you keep your noise level down because this is being recorded and the people at home will have trouble hearing if you are uh loud out there. Thank you. Regarding the MUA statement
one, you said you have talked them about that operation offsite and coming over. Has there been any more preliminary approval or just talk? >> We have had some preliminary discussions with the MUA about the off-site watering extension, but that's as far as we've gone so far. >> Now, if that doesn't come to fruition,
what do you do? Come back to us. >> That would be a specific condition of approval >> and you you'll stipulate to that. >> Yes. >> Thank you. And also I don't believe there's any conversation to the sewer because that's not a 208. >> Not 208.
>> It's not a 208. >> Uh the site is not in the sewer service area. >> Correct. >> Mr. Sullivan. >> Uh question about the natural gas generators again. Um what's the distance between what's the distance between the
property line and the location of those generators? Uh it is about 15 feet to the side property line. I'm sorry. It's 20 22 feet to the side property line. >> 22 ft. Uh was there any consideration
taken in in the design placement for the neighboring uh residential property as when it comes to the location of these generators? Well, again, we we're proposing them with noise abatement uh so that they would satisfy local and uh statutory
obligations for uh for noise levels. >> Okay. So, there will be the noise abatement. >> Correct. They will they will have enclosures. So, they will have you know noise abatement as part of their >> Okay. Thank you. >> Any other questions? >> Madam Chair, >> Mr. Rogers,
>> there's a lot of discussion on signage that we just had. Well, uh, in the past, the board had for emergency services and the general, uh, public's information that there be an English version of the, uh, building, description of the
building. Would that be on a monument side? Would that be at all? Was that provided for? That's fine. We would, we would agree to provide that on the on the street side, both, you know, Jewish and and English version. >> It's helpful for all.
>> Anyone else? Madam Chair. >> Yes. >> Real quick, just a just a followup on the um septic fields or disposal fields. Um is the wreck area included in that or will they those disposal fields be fenced off from the wreck area? >> No, they're not going to be fenced off. They're going to be disposal fields with
grass over the top of them. So they're there's no restrictions on them being utilized for for walking over them just like you know may have many people sitting in this uh room tonight have in their front yards. They're just bigger. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. McFarland. Don't go far. >> We're now going to call Mr. Deo. All right. Do you swear or affirm the tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Brian Deoce.
>> Brian De Boyce. You hear that? >> And please list your credentials for the board. >> Yeah. Um, I'm a uh senior biologist with the boy and associates. I have 32 years experience. Bachelor of Science at >> You can just hold the microphone to your face.
>> Okay. Bachelor of Science from Westchester University. I'm a qualified biologist for New Jersey D, the Pinelands Commission, Pennsylvania Fish and Boat, Maryland, Delaware DNR. Um, I'm a qualified biologist by the US
Fish and Wildlife Service. I'm a professional wetland scientist, a certified ecologist. I've also been appointed four times to the wetland mitigation council for the state of New Jersey by four separate governors. Um I
have spoke at over a 100 planning boards in the last 32 years and um >> does the board accept the credentials? >> Yes. You're a first timer for us. So >> uh I've been here quite a few times but maybe not lately. Right.
>> Thank you. >> Right. And and Brian, you were hired for limited purposes um to advance this project. Can you summarize for the board what you did for each of those disciplines? >> Yeah, we we were we do a lot of state approvals um wetland approvals. That's
what we do. Um so we were hired to do the letter of interpretation, flag the wetland line. We did that in March of 2024. Uh we submitted the letter of interpretation in March of 2025, maybe April of 2025. We anticipate getting the
letter of interpretation back. Uh it's been taken about a year for the state to do those. So we anticipate getting them back in March or April of this year. And when we get it back, they'll determine the resource classification, which will be the buffer for the site. and and your
your opinion and the plan that you submitted to the DP would be a 300 a 50 foot. >> We felt it was 50 foot based on the habitat that's out there, the size of the trees, the type of the wetlands that they are. If it comes back 150, there's
it's within the 300 foot riparian buffer. Um so not really too much of a issue. >> So let's now talk about the riparian buffer. What role, if any, did you play in determining that? >> Uh, none. That's >> If you would hold that microphone. We're
We're having a problem with our system here, so you really need to be close. Thank you very much. >> Okay. My role I didn't have a role with the Riperian buffer. It the site is mapped the wetland is m or the riperian feature that's on site is mapped as a C1
water body and that gives a 300 foot buffer. >> And then the last function you had was a species inventory. Can you describe what that entailed and then what your conclusions were? >> Yeah, we we did a well when we do the LOI, we do an assessment of the, you
know, a a inventory of the plant species, you know, out there is typical of Jackson Township. It's white oak, pitch pine, uh the understory, sassifrass, black cherry. Um the wetlands are maple gum. you know, you
have a lot of typical species there. Some Sweet Bay magnolia. Um, and that's about it. Nothing, you know, nothing unique or or um surprising about this area. >> The um you heard the question from one
of the board members about this letter of no concern. Have you ever heard of that? >> I I think the the name I think I think the premise is correct. I think the name is jurisdictional determination.
>> And can can you just describe what that would entail? >> Yeah, JD is typically done in CAFRA areas um to to for folks to figure out if they're in the CFA jurisdiction, but you can submit a jurisdictional determination to the state. It doesn't it's not all-encompassing.
It doesn't cover um you know ngypties permits or things like of that sort, but it covers land use permits and and we would be able to submit that and >> the applicant would stipulate that they'll uh they'll file the
jurisdictional uh determination with the D on on any and all issues that are raised. It it's a we we would submit a a plan >> um a request that they look over and and
basically you know check what what correct required and they submit a letter back and it just has checkpoints of what what's required >> and then the applicant will stipulate that that will also when received that will be sent to our professionals as well. >> Yes, we'll we'll submit it to the
professionals and to the board. The issue, I guess, to deal with Mr. Breie's second comment is that if they refuse to do it, we don't want to have to come back and say they refused. But if they point out something that's different than what we've testified to, then yes, of course, we >> and I thank you for the correction of
name and I totally respect your your credentials and and and everything else. And I'm not trying to fight with that or argue with that. You're a professional. But I still think that when that letter goes to them, all the concerns I mentioned before, the sector citizen
habitat, neighborhood wells and runoff, wetland surrounding the hot mat river buffers should be outlined in that letter. Now, if they don't want to answer it, if they don't want to answer it, s fine, I understand. Get me the letter back that says they don't want to
answer it, but show me the letter you sent to them. Show me that letter to my professionals so I know you acted in good faith and did it. >> And I want your applicant to >> stipulate that if it did come back and they did do it and they found a problem, you'd come back in front of us and address it. What is the problem with
that concept? >> No, no problem at all. We and we before we submit it, we'll pass it through Doug so that he makes sure that we cover all the topics he thinks you're concerned with and we'll make sure that's all in our letter and then from there we lose control. Whatever happens from there happens >> comes back with a concern, we'll address
that. Correct. Excuse me. >> If it comes back with a concern, you'll come back in front of us to address it. >> Yes. >> That's a stipulation. >> Yes. >> You got that, Mr. Shake. >> And Brian, you're good with that? >> Thank you. >> And that's all we have of this witness, Madam Chair.
>> Thank you. >> And questions. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh, is the rabbi here? >> I haven't turned around yet, so I don't know who's here. Oh, hi, Rabbi. Come on.
Get comfortable. Yeah. Please raise your right hand. You affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> I affirm. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Aram Mosha Nerburgg. The last name is spelled N I E. >> If you just raise the microphone to your mouth.
>> Aram Mosha Nerenburgg. The last name is spelled N I E R E N B E R G. And >> Rabbi, what is your affiliation with this school? >> I am a teacher in the school. I've been there for the past six years. um they're
a large portion of the day and I'm involved in the uh you know general running of the school. >> And where's the school currently operate? >> 82 Oak Street in Lakewood. >> And you're >> if you would please be so kind as to speak up because we're having some difficulty with our microphone system.
>> I apologize. The um let's first focus on the high school component of the application. Um you heard Mr. McFarland say that there will be approximately 160 students. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> All right. And um can you descri and you
heard him summarize the arrival and departure. Can can you provide the hours of operation of the high school when did >> So basically the the high school starts at 8:00 in the morning. So arrival would be staggered between 7:30 and 8:00. And the boys are there
throughout the day. 9th and 10th grade leaves at 8:30 at night and uh 11th and 12th leaves at 9:30 at night. And is that six days a week? >> It's five days a week because Friday they leave at uh 12 between 12:00 and 12:30. >> Okay. And there and Sunday it's a full
day. >> Sunday is a full day. >> Um the and the departure, how is that is that staggered as well? >> So the on Fridays >> uh during the the all the days. >> So like I said, 9th and 10th grade leaves um at 8:30 and then 11th and 12th
grade leaves at uh at 9:30. So that's staggered over an hour period >> and then Friday >> and Friday it's staggered over a half hour period but it's uh it's basically the four grades will leave at the same time. >> The um you heard Mr. McFarland indicate that there are six total classrooms. Um
how was that broken out between the high school and the second the post high school? So the high school would each have each grade would have a would have a classroom and then the post high school would have a classroom and then the sixth one would be for if they needed something extra for whatever reason.
>> Um are any of the students at the high school permitted to drive to school? >> They are not. >> And do you anticipate that that any of the students would be driven to the school by their parents? possibly under extenduated circumstances, but certainly
not more than a small percentage, maybe maybe 10%. >> And extenduating mean if they were >> mean if they had a doctor's appointment or if they missed the bus for whatever reason, but uh based on what happens these days, it's a very infrequent occurrence.
>> Um will there be a nurse on staff? >> There will be. Yes. >> Um and what about meals? How how do you since the the children are there for a very long period of time? How do you handle the meals? >> So breakfast is is basically like cold items like bread and cereal and things
like that. No prep required. Lunch and supper are brought in by caterers. There's no cooking on site. There's some warming and things like that, but there's no cooking. >> And there there's a loading zone next to the kitchen where the the deliveries can be made. Is that correct? >> Correct.
>> Um how many employees do you expect during peak times and and what were the functions of those employees? So generally the way it works is is that it's broken up in three times of the day. Um the morning there would be around nine nine staff members and a
couple of tutors, no more than 15 people in total. Um the afternoon is probably like 15 staff members and five tutors around no more than 20 people. at night would also be like nine staff members
and like 15 20 tutors but no more than 25 people. >> Um are there special events like graduations or anything where there'll be a larger attendance with parents? >> There's no graduation um in the school. They have like something just for the
students um on site. The parents don't come to that. Um there is PTA but that's staggered throughout the evening. So there wouldn't be a large group of parents at any given point in time. There is an orientation, but that's also staggered by grades, but other than that, there's no point in time where
you'd have large groups of people coming in. No. >> So there'll be no assembly of no rooms for that. Never. >> Okay. Um Mr. Mcfarlland testified that there was a bass medish offices, dining hall, and other support rooms. Can you just generally describe for example what
the best medish is? >> Okay. So generally the way it works is and it depends on grade but uh the boys spend time in classrooms um hearing lectures from the from the teachers. Um but besides for that they spend time base matter is basically a
study hall where they study in uh pairs with you know reference materials that the teachers give out in advance and they study that and you know depending on the grade. Ninth grade spends more time in the classroom, 10th grade a little bit less and as they get older they spend more time on their own. But that's what a base match is. A base
major is primarily for you know paired off studying between two people. >> Um in terms of recreation for the high school students. What what are we providing? >> So there's there's certainly no organized sports. We do want the boys to
get some exercise um you know for their general health and a little bit you know to let out some energy. So there is a gym. There's an outdoor basketball court. some fields they could walk around a little bit, but it's primarily just for their own health benefits. There's no organized sports. There's no
intense leagues or anything of this sort. It's just for basic health and recreation. >> Then moving on to the post high school, uh Mr. McFarland indicated that there were 22 rooms with three occupants for a total
of 66 students maximum. Correct. >> Correct. And then there's one room for a counselor or what do you call the person who's going to supervise? >> Dorm counselor. >> The dorm counselor. And that dorm counselor is going to live on site during the off hours. Is that correct?
>> And what is the role of that counselor >> to be the mature responsible adult to deal with any issues that arise and if there's any security issues, he's somebody who would be trained in that to know how to deal with that under the circumstances. And that person's not one
of the students then. >> He is not. >> Um, you mentioned security. Uh, will there be security cameras? >> There'll be full security cameras with access control and, uh, 100%. >> Um, the food prep and service would be
the same as in the high school. >> Yeah. >> Aid in the same area. It's the same food. There's no extra deliveries for that. And these these um dorm occupancy students, how how long are they there during the year? Are they there all every day of the year? Are there periods
of time where they go home? >> So there's there's basically the way it works is is that they're there. >> If you could put your microphone up, I'm very sorry, but we can't hear you. >> Okay. I'm sorry about that. Um so the way it works is is that they're generally there straight. uh once a month they go home for an extended
weekend like uh they'd leave on Thursday afternoon and come back Sunday night. Um then obviously there's breaks somewhat throughout the year for holidays and things like that and the summer break, but other than that they'd be there basically for like a month at a stretch.
>> Are are the dorm students um allowed to have cars? The post high school students? >> No. And all the post high school students occupy live in the dorm. >> Yes. >> The um the number of employees that you
highlighted during the high school time discussion is that the that include >> that would include yes that would include post high school. >> Okay. And in terms of recreation, same thing with recreation. >> Same thing. I had a followup. I just need to pull my
notes. Bear with me one second, please. Mr. Peters in his report raises a few questions that I just want to make sure that we cover. Sorry, I'm flipping. Okay. Um, we talked about the general assembly.
There's no areas for general assembly. All the areas within the facility are used for the education purposes as you described. Correct. >> Correct. >> Um, the refu area. Mr. McFarland indicated there's an area where there'll be um
where the garbage and recycling will place. That'll all be done through. Do you have like janitors or other staff members that handle all that? >> Yes, we do. >> There was a question in Mr. Peter's report. It's actually on page 8, item B2, where there's an area on the second
floor with two living areas, four bedrooms with closets, and two full bathrooms. and we never really discussed what the purpose of that is that area is. Can you describe that? >> So the post high school students are there throughout the week and they're
also there for what we call shabas for Saturday. Um so generally we'd have a staff member, a married staff member come and spend the weekend there with the boys in addition to the to the uh the dorm counselor, but there would be a married staff member who would come for the weekend. So we have apartments uh
set aside for that. the um there's no basement proposed for this building. Correct. >> Correct. >> And you heard Mr. McFarland again talk about the but the number of buses and the drop off and pickup and his
testimony was consistent with the operations as as you expect them to occur. Correct. >> Correct. Um and then in terms of a um parent drop off, you said it's rare, but if the parent were to drop off a child, they would park in the parking lot and let the let their child walk into the
building. >> Correct. >> Is there security when someone walks into the building during the day? >> I don't think so. >> Okay. And if um the last question is in terms of um accreditation or licensing or or or or um disclosures to the state
of New Jersey, you have to register with the state um in your current location and whatever you do there you would have to do here as well. >> Yes. >> Okay. That's all we have of >> Thank you, Rabbi. I I do have several questions here. Um how many students are
in each room? the >> in the class in the class. Oh, in the room three >> three in each room and the married uh >> student or the married uh chaperones for the weekend. They're coming uh Friday
night to Sunday. >> They come Friday night and stay till Saturday night. >> Till till Saturday night. And uh children involved in that? >> Are there children? >> Depending Depending on who the married staff is, there might be. Yeah.
And uh there will only be there for two nights. >> One night. One night. That's all. No long-term residency. >> No. >> And the uh RA there is only one single man.
>> Correct. >> I spent 30 years teaching uh high school. >> Okay. >> Uh and being a principal of a high school. Uh so I'm quite familiar with young men. And uh I'm wondering about their social
lives. Uh are they leaving campus to uh go somewhere on the weekends? Are they staying on campus? And if so, how do they get around? >> So they they're not leaving campus, they are staying on site. Um and therefore
they're not getting around. >> So they have no social life. There's going to be uh there's going to be a nicesized group of boys that are there together with them, right? There's going to be the 66 students in the post high school. >> 66 boys >> and then plus another 160 a year younger than them and two years younger than
them. And it's a quite a big group of people. >> So So here's my question. How old are these post high school students? >> They're one year older. They're >> they're 19 to 20. >> That's correct. And they will not be
leaving uh to go out on the weekends to socialize. >> Correct. >> And they will have no cars. >> Correct. >> And they will not leave the campus. >> Well, I can't guarantee that. >> That's my question. >> So, the thing is like this the they will
not it certainly will not be boys will not be leaving to socialize. No. When you say it in such stark terms, will anybody leave the campus? They're not prisoners, but nobody's going to be leaving to socialize. That's not >> here. Here's my concern.
There is nothing absolutely nowhere to walk except people's homes. There there isn't a Waw Wa for miles and miles. And I know boys eat all the time, 20 hours a day if they could. So, they're not going
to be leaving the school to go out and forage. >> No. >> Okay. Uh, one of my biggest concerns is for their safety, >> okay, >> the safety of young people, uh, and the
comfort and safety of the community. And I'm wondering if you would be, uh, accepting of a fence around the properties. So, um I'm concerned about noise for the residential neighbors and
perhaps something along the residential side that would be perhaps a six-foot um fence that would contain sound. They're going to listen to music. I've
heard them uh for sure at at 20 years old uh in the evenings. So, I want to make sure that the neighbors are comfortable and I also want the children, young people to be protected and
I'm concerned about them walking, you know, walking places or going out onto the streets in the evening. Um, that is a concern and I think the neighbors are concerned about the same thing. What are what are your thoughts about maybe a chain link fence around
the entire property and a six-foot fence on the residential side? >> That's that's >> Yes. Thank you very much. I think people will be very grateful for that and I think the your community will be safer now. That would mean that we would like
to see a gate on the driveway where they and I think it will be safer for you. It will be safer for the community uh for the students to have something secured in the evening at night. We live in a dangerous world in a dangerous time.
>> I appreciate your concern. Yes. >> So the only the only the rabbi said yes. The only caveat is that there are certain we obviously can't put fences in wetlands. >> No no only around the school area itself. the where where the line where
the light line is now, >> right? >> And the driveway areas just where the light line is, not the dark green, just the light green areas. I think people would feel more comfortable and that's our goal.
>> And we'll work with your board professionals on fence details >> and I think the professionals know exactly what we have in mind. Thank you. Appreciate that. Um, so the uh Oh, and and of course
I'm thinking Cross Street now. I know we're not on Cross Street, but I've been driving cross street for 50 years in this town. And and I'm always concerned about hitchhiking and boys. We're not going to have that on Frank Applegate Road.
>> We will we will not have hitchhiking on Frank Apple. >> You can you can promise me that. speak. >> Yes. >> No hitchhiking on of the boys on Frank Hypergate Road. Correct. >> Correct. >> Thank you very much. I think that will make everyone feel much better. You'll
have your turn. This is my This is my turn. You'll have your turn. Thank you, >> Madam Chair. >> So, we have guarantee for you on that. >> Yes, >> Mr. Brezie. >> I have two small questions on the security cameras. Will the police have
access to them >> on a regular basis? >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Okay. And the other thing on the signs, it was brought up on a road sign that would be in English also. And I'm noticing like you have here
dining room signage and donor's name. Now, that could be in English or Hebrew. And my reason I'm asking that is if it's only in Hebrew and our fire department don't speak Hebrew and get there, they won't know where they got to go.
So I think all signs should have at least some English on it what it is. I think that's important in a safety factor and quick in reaction time seconds count. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> I I think we've had no uh donor signage
on the exterior of Yes. But we have before said all donor signage is interior not exterior. >> We don't have any sign variance relief. So I saw that was gone. >> Correct. Correct. >> Good. Miss Rose, I have a question. Um
you said that you're going to be catering food for meals. >> So my question is for the young men living in the dormatory. Are they going to have a micro fridge to uh for snacks or is there some place that they're able
to get something after meal time because I know young men eat all the time and I'm just concerned as to how you're going to address that and how it's going to be stored. >> Well, they have I I believe in the in the plans they do have an area that they
can have storage outside of the Sorry about that. I believe that there is a storage area outside of the kitchen where they can keep things and it's also a dormator. They have dormatory rooms and they can keep food in there as well. Um, they're not going to be able to they're not going to be able to have everything, but they definitely could
have some access to some food. >> May maybe like a small refrigerator like any other dorm room. >> There will be. Yes. >> But no cooking. >> No microwave. There's like a unit and it's very common
in dormitories for higher education that it's it's a small contained unit that they can keep snacks that they can either microwave or they can refrigerate. >> I would imagine whatever whatever circumstances
>> Mr. Sullivan >> uh yes just to kind of clarify a couple things. So for the dormatory students they're one-year students or or is it >> one year students? >> Okay. one year. And getting back to something that uh chairwoman said, um I
know you said they wouldn't be going out for socially kind of kind of activities. Would there be any kind of late night field trips or anything like that? >> No. >> Okay. Just wanted to clarify that. Thank you very much. >> Anyone else?
>> Madam Chair, I have a question. >> Thank you. Um Rabbi quickly um and it goes to one of the questions that was raised by your engineer regarding um the the amount of um bus lanes area buses you have to account for for for queuing.
Will the for the high school students will there be an equal distribution of students among each grade? Because my understanding is that the there's a you're breaking up the bus time between the two between essentially we'll call like the two younger grades and the two more senior grades. Correct. Rabbi.
>> Yes. Correct. >> Will equal distribution? >> Will the distribution between each grade be the same so that you have an equal number of students coming for each at each drop off and each pickup? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And I there speaking of the buses, I forgot to ask those buses are not stored
on site. You you hire third party busing, correct? >> Correct. Okay. Uh, just how's it going? Just >> sorry, I thought you saw that. >> Um, you've got an outdoor you've got an outdoor basketball court. Is there going to be hours for that as well? Maybe I
missed that. You going to have certain hours or are there going to be like sub midnight parties out there? The neighbors might be concerned about that. Um there there's a a po period at at the evening time that you'll agree to stop
and what's a reasonable time that you would not have outdoor recreation? >> What I mean what the board would recommend we would be able to restrict that >> 10. >> Thank you. All right. So, just a couple of
questions. So, uh like Mr. Cle, uh I did some questionable things in college that will not be named as well. Um so, so um just what it comes down to the RAS, right? uh if I would request an additional RA be on staff uh due to the
the number of of older children that you have because if things get out of control, you want to make sure you have at least two people there to kind of tone things down. Um you know, I'm not sure how many fist fights that, you know, you guys get into at 19, 20 years
old, but I'm Irish and Italian and we had quite a few at at that age. Um, so the answer is we'd agree if that's if that's what the board requests. I do want to say one thing though. I see that there's a concern on your part. These are you know it might be hard to believe these are very
studious boys and they're not they're not they're not doing these type of things. >> Yeah, they're they're still still boys though, you know. >> Yeah, I know. But I I work with them. I will I will >> All right. So So we'll put that down as a condition. I second condition. Uh, I would request that the the property not be used for banquet halls, assembly
halls, anything of that nature. Um, social activities, nothing. It's strictly a a school higher learning is what it is. That's a use. >> Correct. >> That's correct. >> That will be a condition. And what kind of checks and balancing system is in place to to prevent the
older children from leaving the premises? Is there a swipe card system? Is there something that that once you have the shutdown, they're not able to leave? >> This some kind of checks and balancing system to make sure that, you know, they're not, you know, roaming the
grounds or going up and down neighboring properties. >> Well, there is there's no I don't there's no uh checks and balances in place at the moment. I I I would if that's the case I would just request some kind of you know swipe key system something ID related swipe key related
just to put in there as kind of a checks and balancing system I'm not sure what that would cause so we have to think >> well there's also a problem with uh over the Sabbath we would be prohibited from
using such a system over the Sabbath. >> Okay. >> All right. So, so maybe if you put the swipe key system on on a timer, something to that effect. >> Yeah. >> Would we be able to just lock the doors and and >> or lock the doors at at a certain time?
>> So, that we could do. We could lock the doors. >> There's also cameras on site that it's able to be monitored, but we could lock the doors at night. >> All right. Uh, that is it. I'm going to leave it out to the professionals. >> Madam Chair,
>> professionals, >> just real quick, going back to the the swiping. >> Wait, wait, Rabbi. Rabbi, >> going back to the the swiping thing that I think was just just put out is I guess all students are going to have like an ID card or a swipe card. I don't think
so. No. >> Okay. Um and he said it's not a prison. I would I would agree, but if a student wanted to go off campus to take a walk on Frank, he wouldn't be restricted. >> The school policy is that they shouldn't leave the property. >> That they don't leave the property.
>> Right. >> So, so we have 66 boys now. We have two RAS. Um I was going to say good luck, Bob. You just had a you just had to deal with um fights.
Bob. Bob, when you you just were dealing with fights, no fireworks, no drinking. >> I think you're light on security. >> Are is there alcohol on site? >> There's no alcohol on sites. >> No alcohol allowed in the dorms either.
>> That's That's all. I think you're right on security, though. >> Nothing, Madam Chair. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else here? Next is Thank you, Rabbi. >> The architect. I don't know if he's here
yet. He is. Okay. Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Shimon Greenbalm. G re neu m. >> And would you place your credentials on the record, please?
>> As a licensed architect in good standing in the state of New Jersey and multiple other states. I have appeared in front of this board in past. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Did Did we submit an exhibit of the renderings? I believe A3.
>> A3. >> Okay. Just would you describe for the board um what A3 depicts, please? >> So is it's a rendering of the building from the inner the inner courtyard of the building. This is your main entrance. Um off to the left you're see
you're seeing the main study hall um with three sides of windows which is we we try to bring light and air light. It's just the air is done mechanically. We try to bring light into the main study hall where which is where most of the boys spend most of that day. Um and
then on the right side you're seeing the classroom wing and the dormatory on the second floor. I mean that's in the center and on all the way on the right is our dining room and more dorm rooms on top. the the actual design of the building.
We're using we're we're we're moving into the Apple a which we have the rounded corners trying to do something a little bit different than what we've shown in the township in the past. Um using a mix of materials between ephus and brick and some st some
stone that looks like limestone uh with um our standard curtain wall systems. Next exhibit is A4. I assume it's a floor plan. A5. >> A5 is the first floor plan. >> So we have the entry coming in the
center. You're coming into the class. You're coming into the to the to your left is the coat room, coffee coffee room, and then the the main the main uh the main study hall of smash high school room that we're we're looking at. That's
that large room on the left. Um there's a library there. There's a principal's office. Um and the admin wing is all the way off to the left, the the top left of the screen. Um on the right, we have our four classrooms. And then, you know, as
we move from the right from the lobby and as we move further down the hallway, we have a dining room down a couple of steps. Um, and the I know there was a topic earlier before about the students having storage having food on on site. There's a
student food storage area next to the bathrooms and various other storage areas and the warming kitchens. If we go to A6, A6 is the second floor. That's our That's our dormitories and the 12th grade classrooms. All all
the way on the left side, you see that you have the 12th grade classrooms and an and an an additional classroom for the post post high school as well as a small study hall for those students as well. Um there was question before about
that that living area that we had with the bedrooms. As stated earlier, that's an area for some of the rabbis to be able to stay over the Sabbath or the holidays um when the there when when the curriculum calls for um rabbitical oversight or rabbitical lectures over
those days. Um as we move to the right, you know, past the stairs, we have the dormatory which is closed. We have the the dorm council room. Um, and then we have the dorm room showers, laundry, sinks, and everything else that's necessary to keep a dorm room
running. I do I do know there was some question about the about the um refrigerators in the rooms. Typically, we recommend to our clients that the lounge area be utilized for a larger refrigerator that students can avail themselves of as opposed to bringing
food into all of the rooms, but that will be a operations policy that they'd have to decide. Um, I don't know if we entered the roof into into exhibit, but I know that uh we're probably going to get a question about solar, we will do whatever is uh
financially feasible. And >> even if you just make it solar ready, >> we we will we will be making it solar solar ready. Um, and then when we go to exhibit A7, A7 is is your standard two-dimensional
um, elevation drawings where you could see a little bit of the materiality a little bit better. Um, when we made these drawings, we did have the donor names on the outside of the building. It's subsequently been removed from the project. Um, and Duly noted about the fire department. I would imagine that there probably should be an
address sign closer to the street, which we will add. Um, and we have the the um a secondary entrance to the dining room just to make it feel a little bit more like a C campus that we see on the interior west elevation. And the
interior east elevation that we see at the bottom of the screen, that's the that's that window wall that we were seeing that bring that brings a light into the study hall. Then exhibit A8 is the remainder of the building which is basically our remarkable standard for a school um ephus with the score lines as
necessary for control joints and for design aesthetic. >> Uh two follow-ups. One is you'll confirm that there's no basement in this building. >> There is no basement in the building. I believe the water table was too high. >> And would you also confirm that Mr. McFarland indicated the height was 30
feet? Is that correct? or well it's less than the 35 that's allowed correct >> yes the height is less than the 35 that's allowed we currently have the parapit at 324 which based on ordinance I think it only goes to the top of roof which is below the 35 ft >> that's all we have with the architect
madam chair >> yes >> I noticed uh on the outside on A8 we have an outside fire escape the the staircase >> uh is there a reason why it was an exterior.
>> Yeah. So So that's actually not a fire escape. Um that's actually for privacy for the the Sabbath apartment that we made so that the children and the women um can get up in and out of that living area without having to
mingle with the boys in the dormatory. >> Ah okay. >> So it's it's only going to be utilized >> that's for the married the >> that's for the married and >> weekend. Yes. >> Staff. Okay. Thank you. Good, good. That clarifies that for me. Thank you, >> Mr. Brazie.
>> Yes, this question now. Yes, because I heard it come up twice. Refrigerator with a microwave, maybe combination of each. And I'm not sure how that works, but was that ran by the fire department? Would was that mentioned at all to the fire department?
>> I do not believe we mentioned anything with the fire department. I think anything that we do will be discussed with the fire department and the building department will refer to the fire department. Just out of my curiosity, being a microwave in a dorm, like in a motel, they're not allowed. Would you think it'd be fruitful to mention that to the fire department and see if they have a problem with it or
not? >> Typically, these rooms won't have microwaves in them. If anything, there would be something downstairs in the student for food storage room. >> I I I love the word typically. >> I rather have the word they will not, but you know, if it's not if it's not going to be without, then I think you
have to go back to the fire department. Yeah, that I can't speak for operations, but my recommendation would be not to be having microwaves. >> We could certainly stipulate that if the microwaves are going to be in the dorms, we will consult with the fire department fire department and make sure it's acceptable and if not, they won't do it.
>> Or just stipulate there'll be no microwaves in the rooms. >> We'll find that out. >> Yeah, they're they're ready to stipulate there will be no microwaves in the room. >> See that? So simple. >> Oh, so simple. Thank you. I just can't I just can't say it without their without
their >> had to rate for the head nod. I saw that. >> Yes, of course. But that will just make make our lives easier. Thank you. >> Yes. >> Anything else from the board? >> Yes. One thing, >> Mr. Rogers. >> Uh, excuse me. The exterior uh
staircase. Did you consider covering that for climbing weather? I do have to check with the civil engineers terms of uh setback if we can. But I imagine that the school would be very happy if we can. >> I would think so. I've done many times
and it's good for the ISIS. >> We use the microphones. We could hear you and then we'd know what you said. >> Oh, you couldn't hear me? >> I'm sorry. >> Yes. I said I've done it many times and with ice snow it's greatly uh utilized. >> He was asking if we could cover the
outdoor stair. Yes. >> Thank you. >> And and if I could >> just make a point on that, I I went to personally went to a high school that had an exterior staircase and it caused a lot of financial issues for the school later on when they tried to enclose it
and and and replace it. So, if you can do it, you know, before you decide to do it later, you're better off >> 100%. >> Anything else? >> Yes, I have something. What? What is the >> Mr. Tremor? I'm just doing it for the
microphone system. >> Absolutely. >> Mr. Tremor, >> is the building going to be sprinklered? >> Sorry, what >> is the building going to be sprinkler? >> Will there be a fire department connection? >> Yes, it will require the sprinkler. >> Where would the fire pump be in this >> fire department connection? We I would
have to um consult with the uh civil engineer. You know, you have >> I believe we we put the the the water room and the sprinkle room off to the If we go back to A5, it's in the I I believe we coordinated this already. There's on the
the top left corner of the building, there is a water room. I believe that the fire department could actually be somewhere in that area. >> Yep. So my only question with that is >> so the way you have it lined up right there your your fire department connection so the sprinkler room would
be to the top left but on the front there is no direct access so >> if you look at the order room there's a door at the back >> I I see that but on the plans regarding the outside it's exhibit A2 if you want to go back to A2
>> that would actually be exhibit A8 oh on the site plan. Yeah. On the side plane for A2. So if you go back to A2, does it line up? >> So that's that's my question there. If it's if the fire department connection and the and the sprinkler room is going
to be in that top left corner, >> it's there's no direct road access to it. So you can't the fire department can't pull up and connect to that. It has to be >> I thought you were I I I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about the water connection for the sprinkler. >> Okay. >> The fire department Y would probably be
be closer to >> to the vest. >> It would be closer >> probably to to where that uh >> it's on the emergency access lane. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which one is that? >> The emergency access drive. >> Yeah. There's no
>> Yeah, it would come in the emergency access drive. >> Yeah, I see the door, but there's >> But I'm asking where the I'm asking where the FDC would be >> because it's not. >> We're going to locate it wherever the fire department wants it. >> Okay,
>> that's that's good enough for me. Thank you. >> Yes. Anyone else? >> Yes, >> sir. Uh, do we have a floor plan for the gymnasium? >> We we do have one here. I don't know
that it was submitted as part of the package. >> I don't have >> I didn't see it in part of the list um of exhibits. >> Can you describe this the gym? >> Yeah, the gym the gym essentially is a simple affair. It's going to connect into the if we go
if we go to a to A6 um it's going to connect at the end of the hallway. Um it'll be three step there will be three three steps up I believe at that location and then we're coming to the small link that has a small recck room. Um and then it's just
a big gym open gym with the regular hoops. the dormatory showers would be >> t typically in in similar buildings as I've testified in the past. >> Madam Chair, >> yes, >> Mr. Greenbound, thank you for your
testimony on the site civil plans. The gym appears to be 62 by 100 and what appears to be a 32 foot connector to the um to the yeshiva. >> Yes. Um, can we please get some plans just to understand what goes is it a
hallway? Is it an area for storage of things? >> So, it's hard for the board to make a decision without >> understanding what what goes on past the bounds of the yeshiva building. >> So, so basically in that connector link
there's a set of double doors and there's a double doors to the exterior. There's a ramp that brings you because where where there's a two there's there's a small grade difference. It's the three riser grade difference there. So we have a small ramp um past that
small vestibule or stair area there in that 32 uh that 32 foot connector there will be a wreck room that would have ping pong tables or something similar to that. And then we're just entering into a regular big big empty gym. That's just
regular basketball gymnasium. >> Describe what's being proposed. I don't I don't know if the record includes plans for it. >> And just to follow up, the building would have to be ADA compliant. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> There's a ramp next to those three
risers. >> I I appreciate that you do have the ADA compliance here. We have one more witness. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do.
Scott Kennel keen ne with Mcdana and Ray Associates located at 1431 Lakewood Road Manisquan. >> I'm a principal. >> Mr. Canel, before you uh before you get on the record, I just want to I see a lot of new faces in the crowd, so I just
want to set kind of the foundation here because how it operates at the planning board is a little bit different than what happens at the zoning board. So, uh, pursuant to the New Jersey Supreme Court, what happens is that the planning board only has a jurisdiction to review
the public health and safety for the ingress and egress of the property and the internal circulation. What happens outside of the property at the planning board level um, essentially goes into a black hole. Now, I don't agree with that. Um, but it is a New Jersey Supreme
Court case that determines the board's jurisdiction eventually at some point in time in the future that will probably be reversed, but this is a sandbox that we have to play in. Just so everybody is clear, if even if you come up, you have questions of Mr. Canel. Um, that is a
sandbox that the that the planning board has to play with. So, just to kind of set the stage here so that everybody understands what the board's jurisdiction is, what we have the right and and not the right to vote on, and I'll leave it to Mr. Canel. >> So, Mr. Kennel, will you place your
credentials on the record, please? >> Yes. Thank you. >> Thank you. I'm a principal with Mcdana and Ray Associates with over 40 years of traffic and transportation planning experience. I've testified before this board as well as a 100 other municipalities on over 2,000
applications and have been qualified by the New Jersey Superior Court as a traffic expert. >> Thank you. >> So, our office prepared a traffic report dated June 26, 2025. That traffic report summarizes the tasks that were
undertaken including an inventory of existing conditions, traffic projections. Um, uh, the access design as well as a site plan. Traffic counts were conducted at the intersection of Frank Applegate Road and
Jackson Mill Road on June 4, 2025 from 7 to 10:00 a.m. and 3 to 6:00 p.m. And again, we pick those times because they're generally the highest uh periods of traffic on the roadways. And um Mr. appreciate the other people
that do have a review of say Applegate and Frank Applegate and Jackson Mills Road and the other end of um Frank Applegate at Bennett Mills will be Ocean County. Ocean County will be reviewing this. So there is another pair of eyes that'll be reviewing those off-site locations as it
>> refers to this project. And it was determined that the peak hour on Frank Applegate was 7:45 to 8:45 with approximately the two-way volume of
160 vehicles in the vicinity of the site. The afternoon peak hour was from 5 to 6:00 p p.m. with approximately 240 vehicles two-way on Frank Applegate road adjacent to the site.
As far as traffic projections, typically we review the trip generation manual published by the Institute of Transportation Engineers and I'll go through where there's two sets of calculations.
The traffic data collected by IT does not take in consideration um the operations of the proposed school because typically high schools have a lot of pedestrian vehicle access that being the students and higher drop offs.
But we've taken in consideration the fact that there will be approximately four buses serving the 160 high school students. We also took a conservative approach that 10% of those uh students would be driven to the school or picked up by their parents or
other guardians. And then we took into consideration the um staffing levels that were presented earlier and determined that during the morning peak hour there would be approximately 64 trips. basically 44 vehicles entering, 20 exiting and those
include the buses and then the parents would be the exiting traffic. We did PM traffic projections and projected 34 vehicles even though that's a conservative estimate based on the testimony you heard earlier where
generally the dismissal occurs from 8:30 to 9:30. If we were to consider a generic uh private high school, it would recommend a trip generation of 150. Again, that's excessive when you consider the fact that the students
don't drive and over 90% of the students will be um dri by bus and depart by bus. Uh and we've provided we've always provided those calculations because that's something that's requested by Ocean County when we're providing
traffic impact studies for a uh a private high school. We determined by based on the review of the area roadway network traffic patterns that 70% of the site traffic would be oriented towards Jackson Mills Road either going north or
south on Jackson Mills Road with the balance 30% oriented towards the east or southeast towards Bennett Mills Road. So that's what we took into consideration when we were assigning site traffic and assigning the traffic to at the site driveway.
As far as future projections, we took into consideration the Ocean County Planning Board uh protocol where we looked at a 10-year horizon. So, we looked at a design year of 2035, which took into consideration traffic growth based on data published by the
New Jersey Department of Transportation and it equates to approximately 10% growth in traffic from what was recorded. We also took into consideration additional site generated traffic from two other sites in the area.
One is a proposed um office building on Jackson Mills Road at 180 Jackson Hills Mills Road that was recently approved. And we're also took into consideration uh the remaining dwellings to be occupied at Jackson 21, the southeast uh
section that is on Freehold Road. So that traffic was added on to develop our future traffic volumes. And it was determined that when we took all that into consideration at the site driveway, it would be operating at a level service A. You've heard testimony
be rated at intersection from A to F. A generally means that vehicles exiting this site or entering would be have delays less than 10 seconds. The design threshold is generally a level service C to D. We're well below that and this
driver will operate very efficiently. Also reviewed the on-site circulation and the access design where the site driveway is proposed. We observed a sight distance towards um
Jackson Mills Road for approximately 600 ft. And then looking in the other direction, we're towards the east or southeast recorded site distance in the range of 450 to 500 ft. According to national
standards which are accepted by Ocean County, again, Frank Applegate Road is under jurisdiction of Ocean County. The the requirement is 360 ft. So, the sight distance provided exceeds the recommended uh safe stopping sight
distance for Frank Applegate Road at a 40 mph speed limit. On-site circulation, uh just to amplify what Mr. McFarland testified to, the site's been designed to provide positive on-site circulation to accommodate not
only passenger vehicles, but school buses, refuge vehicles, as well as emergency vehicles. and it's been designed in a in a safe and efficient manner. U so in summary, the site access will
operate a level service a it's been designed in a safe and efficient manner and the site provides positive on-site circulation. >> I I have two follow-ups. First is um um do you anticipate any road improvements imposed by the county along our frontage
or elsewhere? It's expected they have some half-section requirements that there will be improvements required and that's I'll defer to Mr. McFarland to those details. Um and then the other is a waiver request that Mr. McFarland discussed which is that um the ordinance
states that no parking soul shall utilize or the required entrance or exit drives or major circulation drives. Um and we obviously are on the drives. Can you just opine as to what under these circumstances why that waiver is reasonable? >> Yeah, it's acceptable because we do not
have any parking spaces that are directly accessing the the access aisle or access drive within close proximity to Frank Applegate Road. So any parking maneuvers are far enough into the site where they would not have a negative
impact on vehicles entering or exiting the site. >> And also they're it's not like a shopping center where they're in and out all day, too. They're more regular long-term >> specific periods of time during the day. Correct. >> That's all we have of Mr. Kennel. Madam Chair,
>> thank you. >> That concludes our presentation. We're prepared to answer questions when raised. I'd like to make a motion for a 10-minute break. Sullivan. >> Second. Hello.
All All right. question for any of the experts that testified. So, it's not not statements, uh not opinions, not feelings, but just questions for the expert as to the testimony that they put on. All right. So, what are we open for?
>> I'd like to open the uh public portion for cross-examination of this uh application only. Sullivan. >> Second. Hello. >> I >> Good to see you again. Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
>> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. Ed >> Bannon, 22 Abberorn in Court, Jackson. Last time I went to elementary school, grade school, intermediate school, high school, and college,
80 plus zero did not equal zero. How do we come up with these kids who are not allowed to use the school, leave the school, come to the school, drive to the school? >> Just just direct the questions at an expert for this part. >> Why do we need 80 parking spaces if if
they can't do anything? The 80 parking spaces are allocated for at times when we do have parents coming in. We're never going to have all the parents at the same time, but for things like PTA, so the staff will be on site and parents will be coming and going.
And there was there was enough room for it and there's no there's no on street parking. >> 80 spaces. >> We don't we don't need 80 spaces. It's just it's just there in case. I believe Mr. Cle or some or Mr. Peter s question whether we would agree to bank
the parking the which means design for it but not build it. The the reason we would prefer not doing that is it's expensive to gear people up again to go and do site work since they're all going to be on site hopefully building it. We wanted to build them all at the same time.
>> Okay. Uh, good, good evening and thanks for everybody to be here. >> All right, Paul, >> please raise your right hand. >> Yeah. >> You swear, affirm the tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> Yes. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Uh, Paul Riverier. I'm on West Commodore
Road in >> Now, I have questions for our own >> Just say your address one more time. And I don't think Laura got it. You got it. Okay. >> I have questions for our own experts. And I have a question for uh you is why
is Brent Pullman here at this meeting? >> So were you here at the beginning of the meeting? >> I'm sorry. >> Were you here at the beginning of the meeting? Were you here at the beginning of the meeting? >> I didn't.
>> No, I didn't know I was. I missed it by five minutes. >> All right. So So Mr. Pullman is here because we wanted to make sure that he addressed the fact that the ordinance that arose from this application was a result of litigation that the township
had with the federal with the federal government really and the uh justice department and the AG's office and the whole nine yards. So we wanted to be very clear about that and M Mr. Pullman was our expert in that matter. Now he that litigation uh was a result uh was
that litigation a result of uh two unconstitutional ordinances? >> I'm asking uh your Brent Palman. >> Um you're not your mic is not on. >> Okay. as part of the lawsuit filed by
the uh Department of Justice. I don't believe they alleged they were unconstitutional. I believe they alleged that they violated um the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act as well as the Civil Rights Act. Now, is that law in your opinion u mandatory for
their in perpetuity for Jackson is >> the overlay law? >> Is what, sir? I'm sorry. >> What is what in perpetuity, sir? >> The law that the overlay zone law that can never be repealed? >> The ordinance?
>> Yes. Well, any any time that what the settlement agreement with the federal government requires is that if the township of Jackson wishes to amend its law, its ordinances as it applies to uh private schools or religious uses, those
must be submitted to the Department of Justice as well as the attorney general's office. >> Okay. Thank you. >> For review and approval. That is that is what the agreement provides for. >> Okay. And my next question is to our our own engineer. This side Jackson Township
pays to represent us and this side the applicant pays to represent them. So my question is is an aerial map required as a part of the application. >> Um I guess you know first off um the the
town um is not paying me. the applicant or or the any of the professionals. The applicant postes an escrow. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, that's Thank you for clarifying, but really you wouldn't be there if you weren't representing Jackson. Is that correct? Correct. >> I'm representing the Jackson County Planning.
>> Okay. >> All right. So, and um I don't think an aerial photograph is required as a checklist item to be submitted, but typically the applicants provide them to allow the public to see um the site and the surrounding area. Well, that's that's that's my problem. It's it's
absent here. You can't see all the homes around it and it doesn't give you the big picture. Can you require an aerial map? >> So, what what you're going to have to do what you're requesting is an amendment to the checklist. >> Right. But, but we do have it. It is
part of the submission package. >> Right. >> Well, can we put that up or something to show the the >> It's been up a few times. that out to show everybody's home and how many homes are going to be affected. >> It has been marked as A1. >> Okay.
>> Now, is this already a taxexempt uh property? I'm asking because you're supposed to make sure that the applicant has fully paid in taxes. >> I don't think a vacant property can be taxexempt because it has to be used for a nonprofit purpose. So, I doubt it's
tax exempt. >> So, you're fully paid in taxes. >> I don't pay the taxes here. I have no idea. >> Well, that's a requirement by the planning board. >> Hang on. So, so just because I actually dealt with this over the last two weeks quite a bit. So, what happens is that pursuant to the checklist that we have
for an application to be deemed complete, the applicant has to have all their taxes paid up to the date of application. So, so in order to be deemed complete, the taxes have to be verified that they are paid. They're verified both um internally and and with
our board engineer. And to the best of my knowledge, according to the the checklist and the uh certification of completeness, they have been >> they so they're not in the rears of return tax as you're saying. >> No, but it's also irrelevant at this
point because what happens is that the they have to be deemed uh paid at the time of checklist completion and that's how we determine that that element of the checklist is complete. >> Okay. Um, now another I have another uh question for our engineer. Is it okay if
I call you our engineer? All right. Uh, is any part of this property did you check to see if any part of this property was in the conservation overlay zone? >> Yes. And it is. >> It is. >> Yes.
>> Okay. Now, we have a law here in Jackson saying that any property that's in the conservation overlay zone cannot be deemed complete until uh all those D permits have been
>> That's that's not true, sir. >> And >> that's >> okay. It's uh 244-45 >> and it's still active and it's uh >> so it it's an LOI. So, so what happens is that if there's if there's any it's called an LOI. >> So, what happens if there's any if
there's any issues involving the D on a piece of property, they have to submit an LOI to the D. They have to incorporate that into the checklist as proof that they submitted it to the D as an item in the check checklist to be deemed complete. That's what you're referencing. >> Well, I'm reading it here and it said I
I understand what you're saying. Uh it's a C1 A and they say they have to have it before they're deemed complete. They have to file it with the DP and they have to submit it as part of their application to the planning board for both internal
administrative review and also board engineer review to be deemed complete. And they've done they've done that. >> Check it because I'm reading it right here. It says all applications for blah blah blah approval shall be required to submit a valid NJD letter of
interpretation or permit which identifies all fresh wetlands >> buffers transitions uh before the application can be deemed complete. >> That is correct. That's the LOI. So So what happens is >> do we have the LOI here?
>> We have the LOI. >> Okay. >> We have an application for the LOI. >> We have the application for the LOI. So, do you have a copy of the LOI? Uh, >> hasn't been >> that can show us where the LOI is? >> It's part of the submission package which is online and both in the file at the planning board office.
>> All right. Well, have you >> and the applicant has submitted for an LOI, >> but he has not received a an approval. >> It takes about two years to get that done. >> Listen, I'm asking let me >> I'm answering your question. I know. So, it takes about it takes about two years to get a D approval and you also have to
have an approval from a board body in order to get it >> right. So, I I understand where you're going with it that you're saying that, you know, everybody needs a a permit to uh be entitled to be heard at the planning board, but you're you're missing the step where first it goes LOI, then it goes board, then it goes D
approval. >> Well, that's not what it says here. So, I'm not going to I'm not going to go back and forth. I'm not going to argue the verbiage. >> All right. So, going back to my question, can I ask the our engineer? >> Go for it. >> Do we have a map of the uh of a NJD
approved LOI? >> That's it's not a map, sir. There's it's not an LOI is not a map. An LOI is an application of the D >> regarding any environmental issues on the property. >> Questions. I'm not meaning to >> And I'm answering you, but that's a legal question.
>> All right. >> Right. All right. So now there's also a riparian uh map. Do you have a map of the uh New Jersey DP uh approved riparian lines? >> Uh no. >> Okay. >> I'm I'm going to I'm going to ask you to
direct your questions to the environmental specialist and the engineer the applicant. This is technically cross-examination period for >> I didn't know I was limited and I couldn't talk to our own expert. What what you're ask what you're asking for is applicant information and I don't
want to have our experts testifying on behalf of the applicant. So you're you're asking applicantbased questions to board experts. So let's let's you could ask whatever question you want. I'm just saying please direct them if they're applicant based to the >> Well, I'm I'm
I thought I was people who testified, which they did. I'm I'm I thought I was >> Our experts did not testify >> and you're telling me I can't. I'm I'm telling you that if it's an applicant-based question, which is what you're asking, please direct it to the app to the applicants experts because
they're the ones who testified. >> Okay. So, uh can we get a straight answer? Do you have a an approved New Jersey D LOI that you can show us? >> No, we have an application only. >> All right. Now, could that application
be uh the approval of that application? Could it be a lot different than what you requested? >> And if it is, we'd have to come back to this board. >> Excuse me. >> If it is significantly different, we would have to come back to this board, >> right? Okay. So, they would have to
reconfigure the whole site plan if if if they if the New Jersey D had a whole tilt different interpretation. >> Correct. That's an outside agency approval. That's would be a condition of approval. >> All right. So, now what about the toxic waste? That's a problem on that on that
land. >> Um, Mr. McFarland testified to there. First of all, there's no toxic waste, but he did testify to the Sheamus that was buried and how that was addressed and they did soil samples. >> Does the New Jersey D is there certain regulations where you can't break the
soil if there's toxic waste present and has to be removed? >> I I don't know of any toxic waste on site, but and I can't comment if one of our professionals might be able to answer your question. I it's a hypothetical I assume right >> because are you familiar with there is a
there's a report on uh in New Jersey D on toxic waste on the on the site >> what what I had testified to was a solid waste that was buried on the site by by Rabbi Abati in 2015 or 2016 which was uh
which was discovered which was then remediated through a process with the D was removed from the site so that was solid waste not toxic waste. All right. Do you have a copy of the uh New Jersey D clearing the site? >> I do. That's that was part of the EIS, correct? There was a letter of dismissal
issued by the D indicating that that issue was resolved to their satisfaction and has has fully been uh fully been addressed. >> Okay. So, um the statement of operations that's critical in something like this.
The statement of operations has not been posted on the web and the statement of operation governs what they're allowed and not allowed to do. >> Okay. >> That the statement of operations is attached to our experts uh engineering
report which is part of the record part it's online as well as on file at the planning office. >> Well, it's not online the statement of operation. >> It is it is online. >> No, it's not. Would you stop already? Come on. >> Listen. So, it's attached to my
engineering report. >> Ladies and gentlemen, this >> Oh, man. I'm just trying to >> This hearing is being recorded. You must be quiet so we can hear the testimony. All right, keep it up. We'll be here. We'll wait. It will be quiet or we will
not continue. You must be quiet so the people at home can hear what's going on. All right. So, we need that online because the people here have to be able to review the statement of operations. It's really important. >> Well, in response to that, the rabbi and
the engineer testified to all the components that are set forth in that statement of operations. >> Well, we we need to see it. >> Well, I you you heard the test. >> Please can they can the township please post it online? So just to be just to be clear because the statement of operations was attached
to my engineering report that I was given in distribution to this. So which typically what happens is that the the statement of operations is then part of the record both uh both during the the applicant submissions and also as part of the engineering report.
>> Yeah, I understand. >> Hang on, hang on. So, I just want to verify with the uh with our board secretary uh if the statement of operations is in the file at the planning board office. >> Yes, it is. The entire file is available.
>> What gets posted online are the plans, the exhibits, the architecturals, the planning board and the zoning board have both done it that way. The review letters have not been posted online. >> Understood. My apologies, sir. >> It's okay. It's okay. Listen, listen. I
don't want to get gaslighted or shut down. I'm just asking questions. All right. But can is it possible to put that online so the people can see it in the future? Drive private miles and miles, >> right? In the future, we will put all statement of operations on. >> What can we do this one?
>> What what happens with jurisdictionally? Right. So, go back to jurisdiction. Jurisdictionally under the MLUL, uh, all documents have to be in the file at the planning office for review by the general public. That's what the MLUL governs. We we do it online as a
courtesy to the public, but we're not required to. >> I understand. So, you're being nice to us by not making us drive 30 miles to >> the MLUL has not caught up in many ways. It's not mandatory, >> but it's not it's not certainly not friendly to the residents to have them
come all the way in and and uh and and >> I understood. I understand, sir. >> But my question is, can we get the statement of operations online? Is that a yes or a no? >> That is a yes. And I will correct that for future applications. >> All right.
>> All right. >> Calm down. >> All right. Well, you've uh I still don't understand why I can't uh uh ask our own guest. >> You can ask our professionals questions
directly related to them. But if they're I I can't have the board's professionals testifying on behalf of the applicant. So if it's an answer that the applicant has to give with regard to testimony they give the applic the question has to be directed to the applicant's professionals. Okay? That's all I'm
saying. >> Can we put the the planner and the engineers report on this site plan online so people can look at it? >> I understand. >> So my question is can we do that?
So it it will be we will update the online file with right >> once an application is heard what happens is the plans and everything are there in the document center which someone has to have an account to access
but they're not on the planning board main that main page where you can just go and get them but they're all the documents are always saved yes in the document center and I can put any documents you want in there but someone from the public would have to create an account on the website and go into there
and get them. They're not just going to be on that because we can't keep every So the it's actually there, but the process is they have to actually create a username. >> Trying to give you a hard time. I'm just asking. Okay. It might sound that way and you might feel that way, but it's not intentional.
>> No, no, no. I just said they have to They're just in a different place on the website. >> So, can we get >> once it's up there, we don't delete anything. Can we get the statement of operations and the planning report and our engineers report placed online so people don't have to drive and you know
and and bother you? Can we do that? >> Yes, they can be put online. Yes. >> Will you put them online? >> I will, but they're not going to be on that planning board main. >> Well, if they can always call you and you can direct them what she's saying. >> All right. I want to thank everybody and
uh it's just unfortunate It's it's just terrible unfortunate that we passed an ordinance that caused us to get sued and then resulting in this overlay thing. All right. And I think the people anybody who is part of that,
you know, really did a did uh the township great damage. All right. Well, thank you for your time and thank you Please raise your right hand. You swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record.
>> Um, Eleanor Hatam. H A N U M. >> And your address for the record? >> Seven Evergreen Court, Jackson, New Jersey. So um just the statement of operations in the past I have seen it and I think
it's very beneficial for the residents because as all you lawyers know only one word within a statement twists the entire intent. So um so I have a few questions um because I was sitting in
the corner and I guess that one is not working. Um, did I miss the location of where the dumpster the garbage is going to be? Yes, Anthony, if you could pull up A2. So, the answer to your question is yes, you did miss the location. And it's
right there uh close to the dining room entrance. >> So in the front >> uh that is not the front. The front of the site is here on Frank Applegate Road. This is in the back portion of the site located in if you want to call this a little courtyard area or something like that where loading occurs to the uh
the dining area. >> But the front of the building because the building faces front that way, not the front of the building. >> I does it. It's it's where he said it is. Right. You can call it wherever you want. >> I get it. But usually, you know, aesthetically to have your garbage
dumpster in the front of a building, you know, just an eyesore. Um, my other question is the repair the hold on the repairarian zone. >> Is there any way that you can fence off
that whole area so that there is no human access to all of those wetland buffers? only because in my experience living here forever >> we just agreed to fence the area that's
the light green area >> I understand that but there's a reason why I am making this comment because we have such a sensitive area and the Mitoon tributary um you also
have both of your uh septic fields in that green area and then you have your retention or detention basin all up against an environmentally sensitive area. Has
that been taken into consideration? >> Uh we we have not considered providing fencing. That area would be open for passive recreation. Uh D rules do not require us to to provide any fencing. There's no regulation that require us to put any fencing. And in my opinion, it's not a good idea. I would rather see that
area uh accessible for passive recreation use so the students can possibly enjoy that wildlife area. >> I guess you didn't understand my question. >> I did understand your question. My answer wasn't about the fence when it came to the two um septic fields and the
nonpoint source pollution that's going to drain off of the over 50,000 footprint. and all the cars and the buses and all the toxins that come off the um the asphalt
that's going to be draining up against the environmentally sensitive repairarian zone. >> What's the question? >> My question is has all of those things been taken into consideration? I mean, I
do understand that you're very limited to what you can use because it's such a sensitive piece of property, but to put so much toxic drainage so close to such an environmentally sensitive area,
I I I >> Well, it's not toxic, but Mr. McFarland, how is that regulated? The answer to the question is yes. We did take that into consideration and the uh septic system will will be designed in accordance with D regulations and the stormwater
management system which consists of one underground uh smallcale infiltration and three surface smallcale infiltration basins are designed in accordance with the New Jersey stormwater management standards. They provide for uh green infrastructure um design and standards
and designed in accordance with all applicable regulations. The answer is yes, that has been taken into consideration. >> Very nice standard words. Um, so my other question is the lighting. Um, I guess I missed that portion.
Uh, has the lighting and the lumens been taken discussed tonight? >> Yes, it was. >> Okay. What are the lumens that you have on your plans? >> Well, they're shown on the plans that were submitted as as part of the application. The design is in accordance with township standards. Uh we I did
indicate that our plan currently did not have lighting worked out for the uh you know for this courtyard. So that has to be added to the plan. Uh the lighting plan does show a series of polemounted lights that will illuminate the the you know the driveway and the parking field in accordance with ordinance
requirements. >> Okay. So again we're in a very environmentally sensitive area. And when I was going through your site plans, I saw on the right with, you know, your key you have there where
the lighting is going to be 8,900 lumens per uh light pole. >> No, I don't think that's correct. >> I believe it's on the side. >> So, if you could tell me what the what the question is and I I can respond. I'm
I'm concerned about the effects of LED lighting on how God knows how many lights you're putting up there in an environmentally sensitive area with an ecosystem that's going to be disrupted
by basically stadium lighting. Uh and again this this is a lighting plan designed to illuminate the the drive aisles and the parking areas to provide for uh pedestrian safety uh motorist safety uh and any other members of the public or private school that will be using the facility and the lighting plan
is designed in accordance with ordinance requirements. >> All right, but you testified that at night nobody would be leaving the school. So why do we need such high voltage? >> Well, he testified that after hours there would only be security lighting, not the entire parking lot later. All right. But again,
that type of lighting is going to completely disrupt the ecosystem, the mortality of the animals, the entire habitat of the wildlife that lives there. That is very essential because especially when you're
up against a wetlands area and the Matita C1 River. >> Is that a question? >> Well, yeah. >> I mean, there's no consideration for the environment. And go ahead, laugh at me.
The consideration for the environment is we have to get D approval for the wetlands line. We've agreed to go to the D for this jurisdictional determination where they could look at everything. Again, whether they comment on it or not, I don't know. And we comply with
all regulations. So, I'm not sure what more we can. >> So, this board is going to allow the entire habitat ecosystem to be disrupted by lights because they're unwilling to change what they do have in their plans. the uh the D rules do not regulate
lighting uh and their proximity to the riparian buff. >> Right. But what I'm saying is we have a board here that can >> I don't think they can. They only could do what the ordinance allows. The ordinance doesn't >> The ordinance does not uh designate lighting.
>> Yes, there's lighting standards in the ordinance. >> Are there lighting standards? >> I'll defer that to my expert. What are the lumens? >> Yeah. >> It's it's the brightness of the LEDs.
>> No, he I think he knows what a lumen is. The question is >> Okay. I'm just putting it on the record that we're not going to have a stadium in the middle of uh this neighborhood. >> Mrs. Hannon, do you mind if I jump in for a sec just real quick? So,
applicant, would you guys be amendable to putting the lights on timers? >> We agreed already. Yes. >> Okay. And and what time would that be? >> I don't remember if we >> put caps. That was my next question. >> And they are there are and we do have shields on it. >> Lighting turned off 11 p.m. Except for
security lighting. They don't need to be that bright as to what they have because as it stands right now, we have Elm Street being forced to reduce the lighting because of the same reason. >> Right. Would the applicant be minimal to break it to lower it down to about 10 p.m.?
>> No, I mean the intensity of the light does not need to be that bright. >> We can address that in the next question. Just hang on. >> I I mean I don't know. >> They leave at 9:30. >> Yeah, they leave at 9:30. You have to give time to get people out um if
someone's late. >> I'll leave that up to the discretion of the board. Next question. Would this be shields on the lights? There are shields. >> We agreed there are shields on the light. Correct. >> Right. And they and they would they focus it on so it remains on site. >> Okay. >> An on-site meaning the disturbed area,
not the balance of the site. >> Okay. So, um I heard the discussion about the scheduling and the buses and the hours, but maybe I missed and maybe it's in the statement of operations. Is there a
summer schedule? >> It's all year. >> It's It's all year round. Is that a yes? I missed it. >> Yes, that that's a yes. >> Okay. All right. Um, so
I just kind of want to break down because, you know, being an educator myself, um, I'm having difficulty understanding this breakdown because in the beginning the testimony was there were 20 college students, but then as we got later on
and the breakdown of the 22 dorms and three students per dorm comes to 66. So, we went from >> there was no testimony. Mr. Cle mentioned 22, but he I think he misspoke and meant rooms, not students. It was 66 students consistently during the
testimony. >> I'm so glad this is recorded. Um, all right. Me, too. So, >> can you break down the number of So, we have 66 and they testified 160 students that are
secondary high school. >> High school. Okay. In 66, say college, >> post post high school. Yes. >> How many teachers? >> We'd have to get the rabbi. He said at peak would be 25 to 30 total employees. I
>> But I don't know about the teachers. We'll ask the rabbi. He would know. >> How many teachers do you have in the morning? >> So each each class would have a teacher and an assistant teacher. So >> So how many teachers So it would be there's five five grades. So that'll be
10. >> Actually actually no it's actually eight. >> So you'll have eight teachers in the morning and how many teachers in the afternoon? >> Um so that would be 10. >> How many principles in the morning or
are they all day long or morning afternoon? How does this work? >> The principles. >> Yes. You have two you have two offices for principles. So one is there for sure in the morning and at night, sometimes in the afternoon, and the other one is mostly there in the afternoon and evening hours. They do overlap to some
extent, but they're not it's not they're not there consistently at the same time. >> All right. How many administrators? >> Two. Two administrators. >> How many people for food service?
>> So the food is delivered by caterers and uh it's It's put out by the students. >> So your students are actually serving the students. >> They don't they don't Yeah, that's
>> okay. Um never seen or heard that before as I'm an educator. >> Okay. >> In a very large school. Um how many custodians >> right now? is one, but if we move into a larger building, we may need another one. >> So, we have one for that size building.
Okay. >> For the current size building that we have, this building, >> I'm sorry. And h the custodian, if you only have one, they're working like seven days a week. >> We work six days a week and maybe seven days a week. But the the point is is
that right now we're in a smaller building. This building is larger. Obviously, we you know, staff up as we need it. >> Okay. So, are the students the same students who are serving the food? Are they the same students who are cleaning up the cafeteria? >> That would be that would be the
custodian. >> One custodian to 226 students. >> Correct. >> 226 students to one custodian. >> Correct. >> Okay. um when it comes to the two apartment
facilities and I know that Mr. Sullivan questioned the uh the stairway outside. So there's four bedrooms and two living spaces.
>> It's two apartments. One has three bedrooms, one has one apartment. And I noticed that there's absolutely no food prep or any type of anything in those rooms. How are how are the women eating? >> They're going to be >> and their children. >> They're going to be eating in a designated area in the dining hall.
>> But the testimony was >> they will be they will be eating in the in their apartment, but the food will be supplied by the school. >> So you have somebody bringing food up to them. I mean I'm >> I'm just going to you could continue with your questions, but this is not a planning board function. how s food is
served in the private >> well because I'm looking at bedrooms and I see that there's absolutely no way for a family to cook a meal or refrigerate a meal >> and there was this whole testimony about microwaves >> so that's where I'm going with this
>> right so so just just to be clear the purview and jurisdiction of the board is to see whether or not the applicant has conformed with the ordinance itself there's no ordinance requirement for a statement of operation ations for things like this. >> So, this would just be additional
testimony supplementary to whether or not they conform with the local ordinance and the local ordinance is what the board has jurisdiction over. >> Right. So, but by having uh families coming and going um you know overnight to me it's more like an Airbnb than it
is >> dorms. The use is higher education and it was the use was very limited and it was described by the rabbi. It's not people staying all week. It's just during those limited times >> and that's what Airbnbs accommodate as well. >> And it's not an Airbnb. They're not
paying for. >> I'm just saying. >> Uh same idea. >> Um I have one question for you, Mr. Sh. >> Um why is it that uh Mr. Marzo was asked to recuse herself?
>> That is a there was a potential conflict issue. Mhm. >> Um and I I don't want to address that um due to the nature of the conflict,
>> right? It's only conflict for certain people and not conflict in other situations. >> No, no. The issue arose and unfortunately we had to deal with it today and Mr. Demarzo chose to conflict
and recuse herself. >> Mhm. >> Um she didn't attend so based upon a personal conflict that she had which I really do not feel comfortable >> that's fine >> for personal reasons for her addressing.
>> Um we'll leave it at that. >> All right. It's it's, you know, I just find it very um interesting how the law is manipulated, especially the fact, and I'm just >> Well, it's not manipulated. Miss Marzo did not show up. >> Yes, I know she didn't show up. >> Correct.
>> I'm very well aware of that. >> All right. >> Um and I'll just end with the fact that I because I'm leaving. So, um, I just need to put it on the record. Um,
>> if it's a question, you can ask it if it's a question. So, why I Okay, here's my question. Why is it that Mr. Pullman at the beginning of this meeting decided to violate the first amendment right by telling residents what they can and
can't say or ask >> because that is a violation of the first amendment right and you are not allowed to do that. unconstitutional. >> All m All Mr. Pullman did was address the ordinance that was created as a
result of litigation. >> And I know what he said at the end. >> Listen, Elanar, that Miss Hannah, that's fine. You can say what you want. You put on >> I did. >> What I'm not I put on a show just like you, Mr. >> You have to speak. >> You're not going to I'm at least going to correct the record that you are not
going to make incorrect statements about what I said. I advise the members of the public that pursuant to the ordinance that was adopted through the settlement negotiations and approved by a federal judge, the use is not in question. Okay? Do not put words in my mouth. I
know you like to do that. You like to put words in what people testified over there and you like to put words in. >> It's on the record. >> You're right. Have a great day. >> Thank you. >> Have a good day. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
>> Yes, sir, I do. >> What? Just >> Yes, sir, I do. >> Okay. Uh, please state your name and spell your last for the record? >> Uh, Adam Heidi. H A I D I. >> All right. And your address? >> Uh 70 Verbina Court, Jackson, New Jersey. >> And ju just just to be clear, so you're
coming here >> to ask questions. >> Well, no. So, uh, a little bit more complicated than that. So, you're coming here >> question specific to this application. >> Hang on. Uh, and this is to protect you. Okay. You're coming here as a local resident, not a member of the environmental commission. Correct.
>> Absolutely. I'm strictly here as a concerned member of the resident. >> Yeah. You're not formally representing the environment. >> I'm not formally representing the township environmental commission, but I do appreciate you for disclosing that information to the public. Thank you, sir. >> Uh is that information available on our website? >> It it is. Yeah,
>> it's not. It's not currently right now. >> Yeah. All all members of the environmental commission are it's an open >> just focus on the questions, please. >> Well, we're we're all under oath. Correct. I just want to make sure that we're all telling the truth. >> Correct. >> Okay. Currently, if you all go to the
Jackson website right now, the chairperson is Ray Tremor the third. There's no vice chairperson. Robert Greco is a member. Raymond is a member. Excuse me. Excuse me. number >> the website needs to be updated. That's it. So it's it's no it's no different,
right? It's no different. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. The reason just to be cleared just to be clear just private information that the public's not privy to. >> That's it's public information and the reason it's public information. You can open request it. You can go to the
township and get it. Just because it's not on the website as of right now does not mean that it's not public information. It's on the council agenda. It has to be ratified. You have to be part of the process to get on that. >> Okay. Does that does that include emails
to the environmental commission? Is that public record also? >> Yes. If it if it's a matter of public township email on an email from the environmental commission. >> Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. The reason why I brought that up is because when you when you come in front of a board,
okay, it's no different than a code enforcement officer coming in front of a planning board on a local issue. They can't come in their capacity as a code enforcement officer or a police officer or or a fire marshal or any they have to
come as a member of the public. That's the reason why I asked you that. It wasn't to dox you. >> Did anybody else know in this room except for you? >> It it's case law. It's it's actual physical case law. >> Okay. So, an email that you sent this morning to the environmental commission
is public record then, right? >> Can you answer that question? You sent an email to the environmental commission this morning. >> I did not send any email to the environmental commission this morning. >> Okay. You confirm that under oath? >> You never Okay. Sorry. Did you send a
letterhead to the environmental commission or the planning board on November 15th? >> What I did, just to be clear, >> did you send >> I put a memo together? I put a memo together >> relative to what? >> Relative to the advisory nature of the environmental commission.
>> I sent that to the entire board. >> Why did you remind the planning board on November 15th? >> Because Excuse me. I'm not done with my question. Excuse me. I'm not done with my question. Excuse me. I am not done with my question. respectfully, why did
you send an email to the planning board 2 days before this application took place reminding the envir excuse me reminding the environment just to be just to be clear. >> Am I not allowed to speak? >> Just to be clear answer the question.
All done. All done. All done. Just to be clear, I'm answering the question. Just to be clear, there was a number. >> Right. So there were a number of issues that I needed to address to the board. I put memos together at the request of the
chair so that the board understood their roles and responsibilities in governing not just this application but all applications. >> Okay. Did you or did you not uh kind of testify how the chairman of the environmental commission should vote in
that way? >> Absolutely not. Did you instruct? >> Absolutely not. It's a It's a legal memo which is operable at this point. Okay. So, take it for what it is. Please direct your questions to the applicant.
We're all done with this. >> Did you within that email to the planning board advise the chair of the environmental commission when it's appropriate to the vote? >> When it's anything, >> it was direct. >> Do I have a freedom of speech? All done.
All done. Okay. Okay. I I feel like I'm I'm talking to my four-year-old. Okay. All done. All right. So, it was it was a legal memo governing the jurisdiction of this board as to not just that, but also other issues that we frequently come
across in applications of various natures during board hearings. Okay. So, please if you have any questions for the applicant, direct them to the applicant and the and the applicant's professionals. >> I heard other applicant uh members of
the public address and ask questions to the board. Am I legally allowed to ask questions to the board? >> This is cross-examination time. Ask questions. >> When did you instruct the chairman of the environmental commission when >> I just answered your question? I just answered your question. You have my
answer. That's what And you know what, Mr. Tremor, you're here. Would you please advise somebody who's on your envir environmental commission whether or not I directed you to vote one way or another? >> Uh, if you will, Mr. Shay, I'll pull it up. >> Thank you.
>> Just for the record, the applicant has never seen any of these memos, so we have no idea what you're talking about. >> Well, it's all public record, so thank God. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. How would you know? How would he know? How would anyone have known I'm on the commission? Right?
>> It's just public record, right? Just submit an open request, randomly think about it. >> The memo was a memo regarding the advisory nature of the environmental commission. It's it's three pages long, so I'm going to save everybody the trouble, but there is it's basically a guideline of what we can vote yes and no to, how the
environmental commission is more of an advisory uh commission, and it does highlight the legality of which the environmental commission is responsible for. at summary. >> Yeah. Uh does that email also include uh does it state if an applicant has
outside agency approval that the chairman of the environmental commission is not allowed to vote no? And if I'm incorrect, can you please uh explicitly read that language? >> I can pull it up. That's
what I did was construct a memo indicating what >> would you feel comfortable with me reading what you wrote. I have it right here and I can provide it to you or you could read it. >> I I have it in front of me. >> May I approach? >> No, you may not.
>> Actually, here's this. I'll read it. Can you confirm or deny that you wrote this? >> All right. All right. So, so if you have a question, please direct a question. of the environmental commissions on the planning board is not free to vote to deny an application because of
environmental concerns if the applicant otherwise complies with township governing regulations and requires any outside approval from a county or state agencies such as the DE. >> Okay, let let me let me just explain this to you. >> What does that mean? >> Let let me just explain this to you. >> What does that mean? >> I'll tell you what it means. If you let
me speak, you going to let me speak? >> I will let you let me speak >> with with with one response. You going to let me speak? >> I feel like you interject me a lot. So, please treat me with the same respect. I will let you speak, but please let me speak. >> You may now speak, sir. >> Oh, you're going to give me the privilege of speaking. Thank you very
much. Okay. So, what what it does is that it is a legal memo determining the guidelines by which a board can consider advisory opinions of the environmental commission, which by the way, we don't have. Okay. So, so just to be clear what
happens, environmental commissions are advisory in nature. Okay? So, they can either issue a letter of interest or a letter of no interest. If they issue a letter of interest, they have to have a number of recommendations contained within. The applicant then takes that, brings that to the D and handles it
through the D because the environmental commission is a subsidiary extension of the D. That process is not handled at the board level. the board only has a jurisdiction of determining a denial or approval based upon the local ordinance.
What you're indicating to me is that I put something in writing that indicates that the board essentially has to deny things for environmental constraints, which is not true. It we would get sued if we did that because the D regulates
all of it. Okay. Okay. I don't agree with any of that, but for the applicant, I have a couple questions. Oh, and and and if that is the truth, I will forward that letter to the mayor. I'll forward it to every single outside agency possible to make sure you didn't try to intimidate the
chair of the environmental commission. But I think the language is explicit and >> it's a legal memo. >> It's public, right? Based upon based upon >> based upon the law. >> You don't think you tried to influence >> DP constraints. All right. and it was sent to the entire board, not one
member. And it's for all applications, not just this one. So, per your letter, if an applicant has a D approval and hypothetically has a Pines's Commission approval,
the chair really shouldn't vote no >> because because an applicant has outside agency approval. >> That's not the That's what you wrote. >> No, that's not No, >> I could read it again. So okay just just to be clear let's let's let's talk process here. All right let's talk process. What happens is that
>> Mr. Can you please read the paragraph that >> I excuse me I am speaking. Okay. So what happens procedurally and this is for all applications in front of a planning board in the state of New Jersey. Okay. An applicant if there are D constraints
has to file an LOI. They then put that in the checklist pursuant to our checklist guidelines that becomes part of the application that shows that they are that they sent to the D recognize their concerns. They come before the planning board or zoning board. Either one doesn't matter, right? They they
either seek an approval or denial. If they get an approval, they then take that approval which D will require by the way. All right, in furtherance of the process that the D then takes that, sees if there's any issues that they need to render a determination on. They
could send an inspector to the site. They can send somebody uh to walk a delineation line. They can send somebody to check habitat. They can send somebody to check pinelands. They can send somebody to take a look at uh trees or species, whatever it is. Did they
>> they then render a determination post compliance, okay, as to whether or not there are D concerns? There is an existing LOI right now. They submitted the application. >> Are you 100% positive under oath right now?
>> The application checklist. It's it's a document that was submitted to be deemed complete. Can I call Eric the biologist testified to the LOI? >> No. Okay. This is not this is not this is not a free-for-all. If you have any questions, please direct them at the
applicant. >> Fine. But I might need a couple of their team members, including the biologist who they presented information to ask. >> They're all here. Ask whoever you want questions. >> Okay. Can you please stop being so rude to me? >> There you go. >> Could you please stop being so rude to me, >> sir? Of all the people that are being
rude here, it's not me. Okay. Okay. To the uh to the applicant, why didn't you state uh why didn't you upload a statement of operations for this application? >> We don't upload anything on the township website. >> Okay. Who was supposed to verify whether
or not you had a statement of operations on that application? >> I don't think anyone's supposed to verify that. >> Is >> it was submitted as part of the application? So, beyond that, I'm not sure what happens to it. >> Okay. So, you're saying that the statement of operations was required for you to submit an application? >> Yes.
>> Okay. And the board received that? >> I have no idea what the board received, >> but I assume they did. They We should have received our entire package. >> Interesting. So, it's up to the board to verify whether or not the complete package is really there. >> Mr. Mr. Cle, as part of the checklist, was the LOI received.
>> Don't testify for the application. I'm >> answering I'm answering your question. Answer from my engineer. I don't think I asked you a question. >> He asked about the statement of operations which we filed >> earlier. I think I don't know if it was Eric or the attorney. Somebody mentioned something about vacant property and
paying taxes. Do you guys have a tax collector statement or certificate? You have a tax collector certificate? >> I I have no idea. >> Okay. That shows the amount of respect you have for your application. Uh next, factor in in both internal and external
agency approvals. Is the application currently being heard by the board uh complete or incomplete? >> It was deemed complete. >> It was deemed complete. Is that your answer under oath, sir? >> I'm not under oath, but um yes. >> Why is he answering questions if he's
not under oath? >> Cuz I don't have to be. Um these are testifying as an attorney. By his very nature, he's under oath. >> We have a completeness letter from Mr. >> You put your bar license on the line that you when you when you submitted this application. >> Let you ask a question. Let me answer
it. >> We have a completeness letter from Mr. Cle, the board engineer, dated August 13th, indicating that the application is deemed technically complete. >> Technically, >> that I'm just reading you what it says. That's what it says. The board engineer deemed it complete. >> Could you elaborate on what technically
might infer to? >> No, I can't. >> Okay. For about three hours, uh, why did you guys hire a biologist? >> Well, he Why do we hire Why we hire whatever professionals we want? He applied to the D for an LOI
>> when >> he testified to that. I don't know yet. You want to ask? You want to ask the same question that he answered before? >> I'm asking why. Why? What was the purpose of the bio the biologist's presence here tonight? >> He's a witness who prepared um a D application for an LOI.
>> He conducted the LOI >> or he >> I don't know. You want >> Where does an LOI come from? >> Brian, can you come up? >> Yeah. If you have the environment delineated the wetland >> and you submitted the application. >> Yeah, it's um if you want I could give
you it's uh NJP file number 1511 >> 08-4.1 right? >> Correct. Okay. So I have an email from the D this morning. Why would the why would the D as of this morning mentioned that the only active LOI on the site is
from 2008 expiring in 2013? >> No idea. I don't I don't know who you spoke to. I spoke to >> Rhett Kazlowski has the application. >> Give me one. I'll tell you exactly who I spoke to, sir. >> Michael Shehan, uh, EIT, he's an
environmental specialist number three of the Department of Environmental Protection. He stated that the LOI for this site was done in 2008, but it expired in 2013. Is that correct? >> That's the the old LOI. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and why don't they have record of the new LOI as of this morning?
>> I I don't know. >> Well, wait. There's a question between be let's you're you're parsing words here. There is no LOI because it hasn't been issued yet. So So if you ask the question of the D, is there a current LOI? The answer is no. There's a current
LOI application. Correct. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. So which is what we said. Can can you explain the the the difference between an LOI application and actually receiving an LOI from the D? >> Can't do it >> for the board, please. >> Except once once you submit an LOI, uh
they take a review. Brett will go out to the site, look at the wetlands, get get, you know, write up his notes, come back to the table, draw up your two-page letter of interpretation, and that's >> what you receive. So you would you would have you you would have recorded like raw data. You'd have observations and
things like that >> along the wetlands line. Yeah. >> Would you be comfortable submitting that to the board? >> Yeah, sure. It's Yeah, there's a report. We submitted everything to the D. >> Okay. So you don't have an LOI, correct? >> We do not have an LOI right now. >> Is an LOI a part of a complete
application for this particular site plan? We I can tell you that a town cannot legally require outside agency approvals as a condition of a completeness >> even in a conser conservation overlay zone. >> Uh it doesn't matter. You it's an
outside agency approval because if that were the case then every board every town would have an ordinance that says you need to get your county approval, your D approval, your every other approval before you come to the board. That's not how it's the opposite. The board acts first. >> Okay. Do
>> was it was it strategically planned to >> Excuse me. One second. >> One second. >> I can explain that a little further. >> And Sally, you'll probably like to hear this. You're right. For once um >> for one. Did you have to say for once? Did you know >> 2010 in our master plan we did put in
place to be deemed complete, the applicant needs a LOI handed to them, not just apply for it. It was thrown out very quickly by the courts. You cannot require it ahead of time. they have to apply for it and probably won't get it till the application is deemed complete.
So the uh D can look at it and then it'll come in. They cannot move forward without it, but that's all they're required to do by law. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Rosie. Appreciate that. Uh did you guys apply for a flood hazard area uh permit?
>> I did not. >> Will will you guys need a flood hazard area permit? >> I that's an engineering question. I don't >> uh based on the site conditions. 300 foot from a riparian buffer zone tributary. You will not need a flood hazard area permit.
>> You're 100% positive about that? >> Yes, I am. >> Okay. Thank you. In the initial survey, um did you guys send out a letter to the uh the neighbor and residents uh prior to the the development or >> everyone within 200 feet are notified?
>> Okay. was 200 feet an appropriate uh radius given that it's uh the site contains a C1 water source. >> Uh the LOI application procedure requires 200 ft. >> Okay. And then in that initial survey or
notice that you guys sent out, can you verify whether any language or visual depicted the category one waters? The language for the LOI is set by the state and it's a state um form letter that goes out. >> So, >> and it's and since we didn't apply for a
flood hazard permit uh that as part of the LOI, that wasn't part of that. >> So, you're saying that you sent the LOI application to the residents or you sent a notice that this site plan is >> we send a notice out and that says that the a copy of the application's at the
state at the township and at the state and if they want to go review it. But that notice itself, can you confirm or deny whether it contained the language of uh category one title waters or a visual of that? >> I do not believe it did. >> Okay, sir. And would you be comfortable
submitting um or making public record that original notice that you guys sent out? >> Sure. Sure. >> Okay. >> It's public knowledge now. I mean, it's public. >> Okay. Um this is for the attorney. Can you elaborate on jurisdictional
determination uh particularly relative to a um receiving that letter of uh no no concern? >> I have no idea what that question meant. Can you repeat clarify? >> Earlier Mr. >> concern
>> uh earlier in this meeting Mr. Breie uh kind of requested your team to uh achieve a letter of no concern from the D. Do you recall that? >> Yeah. And Mr. Dubo's response was it's called a jurisdictional determination and that we would request it.
>> Could you elaborate uh what he meant by jurisdictional determination? >> I I cannot, but he probably can. >> Would he please have the time to do that for me? >> It's it's just a request uh that you could send the D and >> I'm sorry. I can hear you, brother. It
it's a request to the D um requesting what applica what permits or verifications this a site would need under their jurisdiction. >> Okay. Why was there so much push back on
on on attaining or asking for a letter of no concern? >> I could answer that. Um because number one, we didn't push back. We wanted I we before we agreed to it, we wanted to make sure that our environmental expert was able to comment on it. And number two, >> comment on Sorry, I didn't mean to
interrupt you, sir. >> Comment on what it meant because it's not called what Mr. Breie initially called it. So, we wanted to clarify that. And then number two is the original request was that if we could not get that letter, we had to come back to the board and we needed to clarify
that further to say that only if the board if the D refused to answer it or or then we would not have to come back to the board. But if the D raised an issue then we would come back to the board. So we needed to clarify those points. It wasn't push back. We just needed to clarify it to make sure it
made sense and it was achievable. >> Okay. I can say one thing to that too because I asked the question, right? >> Yes, sir. >> One, I I believe um I have a few years experience up here >> and in those years I've only seen that
asked for maybe twice. Um and it's not a common practice >> and I think they had to identify exactly what I was asking. I used the wrong name. I thank you for correcting that. >> Yeah. >> And uh and get the purpose and identify all the things I wanted checked. And I
think it threw some confusion to them to at least ratify exactly what I was saying. I'm not the clearest speaker. I might have misworded something, but they wanted to make sure they understood my question. At the end, they understood it. And they stipulated that if they D refuses to do it, they submit that
letter to us. If the D says no concern, they keep moving forward. If the D doesn't has a concern, they have to come back. I think everything out of the question I asked was achieved. >> Thank you, Mr. Rosie. Would any would anybody on the team know when
that tributary uh the Matita Con River was upgraded to a category one water source? >> Believe 2007. >> As close as 2003. >> Um do you know >> as a biologist what uh characteristics
characteristics make up a category one water source? >> I'm just going to object because that's outside the purview of this board. It's a D regulation. I I don't care if he answers it, but to spend time on something that this board has no jurisdiction. >> I would like to interject and uh say
that the board has accepted the biologist's credentials as a certified scientist and he should answer my question because he >> So just to be just to be clear, let's go back to process, right? >> So the jurisdictional letter from the D >> Oh, no. I'm not asking you to I'm not asking you.
>> I I I I know, but just just to be clear, the jurisdictional letter is going to incorporate all the concerns that you're now addressing. So what happens is that if you're in a flood hazard zone, right, it's number one by map. Number two, it's you either there's a couple of different
layers to it. You either go to CAFRA or you go straight to Well, I'm not testifying for the applicant. What I'm saying to you is that once they file that jurisdictional letter, >> okay, that's going to trigger a mechanism by which all these different things are looked at. And if they are if
they're going to build within a flood flood hazard zone or anything of that nature, then the the D is going to reject the application, they're not going to be able to build and it's going to be restricted. So So what you're addressing is actually going to be rolled into and incorporated into that
letter and that letter is then going to be the guiding force by which the application is either going to come back to us or be denied in its entirety by the entirety by the D. Okay, one second. >> So, I'm going to ask again. Um, as a
biologist, uh, what characteristics make up a category one water source? >> Uh, it depends where you are in the state. Some category ones are water quality and some category ones are endangered species. Um, and that makes
up most of them. >> So, you can confirm like an exceptionally clean drinking water source, maybe vast exceptional ecological characteristics to provide for wildlife. >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. What big body of water does this
tributary connect to? >> Matita. >> Yeah. And what does the Matita River immediately connect to? >> Barnett Bay. >> The Barnagut Bay. Correct. So would you agree that there's a chance u activities on this site plan may affect neighboring
cities in New Jersey given that this tributary connects statewide? >> I don't know. I I believe that the way they engineer things nowadays um pretty stringent. The fact that you have a 300 foot buffer on this that you can't
reduce is pretty stringent. And even in Pineland, you could get a 300 foot buffer and still do a buffer reduction model and reduce that to 175 or 240. But on this one, you wouldn't be able to do that. >> Yeah. The site plan traverses a 300 foot riparian buffer, right? Doesn't that
make it prone to flooding? >> The site plan traverses. No, it's it's on the it's it's in the six acres outside. I mean, it's 24 acres. There's six acres of development and so that's 18 acres left undisturbed. >> There's no flood hazard uh areas on that
site plan. >> I I didn't I'm not an engineer. I didn't run the flood hazard methods. Understood. >> Um so >> Okay. Do you know how groundwater flows typically? Does it flow to water or does it flow away from water?
>> Well, it'll flow to two streams to follow some topography. I mean, I'm not I didn't do anything with that. We're both bi We're both biologist. You got it, bro. Right. So, water general. Yes. >> So, it would flow towards the stream. Correct. >> Right. Doesn't that pose any risk um for
things uh on the site flowing to the stream potentially? >> I think the reason the state implemented the 300 foot buffer was to provide a a a functional transition where normal vegetation, native vegetation could um pick up some, you know, runoff, that
kind of thing. Um I'm pretty certain that was in the when the state imposed all those that was part of the thought process. >> Okay. And then again as a as a biologist um you don't see uh even a minuscule concern with having on-site septic disposal within proximity of a category
one water source. >> That's out of my expertise. Septics. >> Okay. >> Yes. And you know, all those things you just mentioned are mentioned in my motion for that letter of no concern to address every
one of them. >> Well, thank you, sir. >> Either this gentleman or the attorney, the D is either good doing that or they're going to do it. And every single one you mentioned was mentioned in my question, including surrounding area and waterways and so forth. So, that's been
questioned and addressed. >> Okay. Thank you, sir. Um the EIS omitted flood planes um some storm water analyses. Was there any reason for that? >> Graham would.
>> Yeah, I didn't write the EIS. >> No, >> we can the engineer can answer. >> Okay. >> Well, the EIS did touch on those components. We indicated that the storm water uh report is designed in accordance with current current rules. uh I provided some testimony as to what
that was, how we satisfied the current regulations, providing you know a total of four on-site uh smallcale infiltration bases. So the EIS is only a document that gives some some guidance to the storm, you know, I guess some guidance or reference. So the stormwater report all the you know the the
additional details are provided in the stormwater management report. >> Okay. But that EIS was mandated, right? It's not it wasn't optional that you guys required to submit EIS for any building over 20,000 square feet. >> Yeah. So, it's not just some it's it's mandated. It's there for a reason. Would you agree? >> We're required to submit it and we have
provided one in accordance with ordinance requirements. >> Okay. Um that EIS actually mentioned a few endangered species. Would you be able to recall those species that were mentioned? >> Uh I think Mr. Deo would talk about any um any habitat or or species.
>> Okay. No, you're good. Um do you have any plans um to relocate the b owl or bog snakes that were uh found on that property or mentioned? Defer I would defer that to Mr. Deo. >> But you didn't have Mr. Deo or the team didn't have an existing plan for that.
Correct. >> I would defer that question to Mr. Deo. >> Okay. You guys did >> Rogers wanted to make a comment. >> Yes. I'd like to ask the commenter. Do you have uh faith in the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection
and the other agencies that oversee these applications? It appears that you do not because your line of questioning is asking line by line things that they should be looking at. >> Have you seen the rules followed explicitly
>> via humans? Have you ever seen humans explicitly follow the law? Is there never a chance a situation where someone breaks the rules or doesn't do their job properly? I've never seen so as a as a board member is it's >> I think it's rather
>> insult you're you're you're um the board member is just asking question it's it's criticize you're going down a line of reasoning that the board has no jurisdiction >> I am asking questions and answers and that's why I'm giving you I'm giving you the latitude you're holding the public
I'm giving you the latitude to answer them okay but we just went about 20 minutes with with a line of reasoning that the board has jurisdiction over. >> Am I on a clock? >> Are you on the clock? >> Yes. >> Obviously not. >> Okay. Do I have the freedom to express or ask any questions to the applicant?
>> The questions have to be relevant to the purview and jurisdiction of the board. >> Were they never relevant? >> Not really. >> Because we don't have the D jurisdiction. We cannot take over the legal authority of another state body. >> That's That's f You're asking questions
about habitat. You're asking >> You're getting fed up. It's almost like >> No, it's not. It's the fact that you're asking and I I could have shut you down about 15 minutes ago. Can I continue? >> I could have shut you down about 15 minutes ago, but I didn't. I let you go. >> All right. So, I'm I'm trying to give you the latitude here to do it. Thank
you. The host of these questions the board has no jurisdiction, okay, over determining an application for. >> Can I finish? >> The applicant submitted an EIS to the environmental commission. Uh on October
14th, that commission uh requested six items of concern. Could you name any of the six items that the environmental the environmental commission was concerned about? And then as a followup, did you guys supply any supplemental evidence? >> Uh we have not resubmitted to the environmental commission yet, but we
will be. >> Okay. When and why not? >> When those documents are ready, they'll be submitted. >> Okay. Would you agree that it's been over 50 days since the environmental commission reached out to you? Uh, if that's the math, then I would agree with that, of course.
>> Okay. I have some septic questions, >> but I guess I disagree with that because October 14th to November 17th is not more than 50 days. >> Oh, sorry. What are the six uh what are the six items that the environmental commission requested?
uh stormwater management report which was already provided, species inventory checklist, septic and sanitation plan which preliminary one was was provided on our original design. Uh Ocean County soil conservation report D approvals regarding wetlands and Matita tributary and proof of remediation from illegal
dumping. Okay, >> which was part of the uh EIS. So some of those items have already been addressed were already addressed in the initial submission but evidently the environmental commission either didn't take the time to look at it. How many of the six were completed? >> Did not or did not understand what they were reviewing.
>> How many of the six were completed? >> Uh stormwater management report was provided. A preliminary septic uh plan was provided and proof of remediation from illegal dumping was provided. So half of those were provided in our initial submission to the environmental commission. >> Okay. I have some septic questions.
>> I have I have a question on that. If when you submit this all to the environmental commission, if they come back with a letter of no concern, you keep moving. If the environmental commission comes back with a letter of concern for specific things, you come
back in front of us to address it. >> Well, I mean, for example, they're asking for a septic plan or D approvals. The septic system is going to be approved or denied by the D. So, >> Ocean County Health and >> Right. So, we why would we come back for that? Number two is D approvals are what
they are. We don't have them yet, but when we get them, we'll supply them. So the stormwater management report has nothing to do with the D with the environmental commission. It's a regulations. They have it, but >> and they have the >> So these are things we'll be glad to provide, but we're not going to say that
if they don't like our storm water management report, we're going to come back because we're going to comply with the regulation, whatever it is. So it's hard to give a blank check to something like that is I guess the end result. >> I understand. Um, do you have any septic design? Is there any proof of concept of
this on-site septic disposal into the category? >> Is there any >> Well, before Mr. McFarland answers, just to preface it by saying it has nothing to do with this board. >> Correct. >> Um, it's an outside agency, but if he if he has that, he can certainly respond. I
>> just want to know what design is. to respond to your question. Our initial our initial or I'm sorry, our initial plan did reserve areas for three disposal fields that were um sized in accordance with you know what we feel their sizing the sizing would be needed.
So when I say when I say a preliminary plan was provided that's what I am referring to. Uh I don't have it shown on on the uh display but it is in the plans that were submitted to the board. >> Okay. Do you have any uh data to show how that might work? That septic design whether it's functional maybe.
>> We have we have not submitted any of our preliminary design calculations to the town or the environmental commission because they are not the agency that's responsible to review them. >> Okay. And then the septics obviously to ensure the water quality is good. Uh any tests to make sure the water quality
won't be compromised. Are you aware of uh D statutes that mandate that the water quality must not be changed at all given it's a category one water source? >> Uh I I spoke about the permitting process briefly before when I said that a project of this size will require a
permit from the D uh under the Nypty's uh regulation that will that sets forth guidelines for the uh discharge to groundwater requirements and that design will have to comply with all of those standards. One second.
>> So, you will need a permit to for your on-site septic. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. Let's just say there was an existing septic tank there. Would you still need a permit to use that modify it? >> I'm not going to discuss hypothetical questions. >> The answer is yes. Do you know why the
answer is yes? >> I'm not responding to hypothetical questions. >> Okay. Are there any other major developments similar in nature on Frank Applegate? >> I'm not sure how that's relevant to the application >> the sites on Frank Applegate road. >> I did not testify to that so I can't
answer that question. >> Mr. Shay, would you agree that's an appropriate question given that >> so the answer to that question would be that there are of this nature not you I'm asking of this let me let me answer the question. Okay. So, of this nature, of this magnitude, I believe that
there's 20 plus uh septic facilities like this in the township, which I believe that they put a chart up on the screen. >> Answering that question when I asked him that question. >> You're you're asking a relative question as to whether or not there are similar septic systems of this nature in the
township. And I'm answering you based upon testimony that the applicant provided. >> Your question was about Frank Applegate, right? It wasn't about the entire town. Exactly. I asked if on Frank Applegate Road, which this site plan is being proposed for, are there any other major
developments similar in nature? >> And and the reason I said it's not relevant is this is a planning board application. It is a permitted use. Any of the impacts that potentially could be created by this application are dealt with either in your ordinance or by an outside agency. So we it not relevant
what else is around the application for a planning board application. >> That is correct. >> Okay. Relative to that septic design, has anyone on the team planned for a failure? Any backup plan? God forbid the septic failed. God forbid we had a natural disaster. Have has anyone on the
team anticipated how to remediate >> the contamination that might occur into this water source. >> That's part of the D application process for an Egypty's permit. >> But your team does not have an established backup plan. We haven't designed it yet. Um because that's
another outside agency approval that's sought after local approval. >> Just to confirm, you haven't designed the backup plan or you haven't designed the septic. >> We haven't designed the septic system yet. >> So you have no design for the septic yet. Correct. Did you did you design this? >> I said that I said that we have
completed some preliminary design so that we could determine the approximate sizes of the disposal fields that would be needed so that we could provide adequate room on the site plan for them which is suitable for this board to take action on this application given what
they have jurisdiction over. So no, we have not designed it any further than that. We have not completed final design of the septic system. There is a much longer process to go for that to be permanent by the D. Nobody is uh is arguing or disputing those facts.
>> Okay, just a couple more questions. Are you requesting any waiverss under RLIPA laws? >> What over LUPA? >> Yes, sir. >> Any waiver? I don't I don't sure there's
a waiver. >> Uh relip is a constitutional >> maybe maybe look correct me if I'm wrong I think there was a setback that was mentioned earlier >> so necessary due to this being religious >> the applicant has to comply with the
setback requirements of the ordinance >> relupa is a constitutional land use law they're apples and oranges two different things >> two separate things I'm confused yeah just >> I'm going to trust you on Yeah. >> Could you elaborate on the waivers being
requested on this site plan specifically? Um, actually, could you elaborate on all of the waivers being requested? >> Well, that was that was already discussed on my testimony. I don't know why I have to go through it again. I I presented my testimony. The the board professionals commented on it. I don't know why we have to rehash that.
>> Okay. Can you specifically mention the waiverss requested that are relative to buffers? >> Uh the only waiver relative to the buffer is the location of the emergency generators. >> Why are you seeking a waiver?
>> I had already testified to that that it they were in the best location to serve the building in the event of a power outage. So I believe it's in the interest of public health uh and the general welfare to provide those generators in that location that would provide emergency
power to this building where 66 young men will be residing hope to be. And just one last question factoring in both internal and external agencies this current application it's not complete.
Correct. >> Not correct. >> Not correct. >> Not correct. You're telling me currently that this is a complete application that the board is hearing? >> Yeah, we have a completeness letter from the board engineer deeming it complete. >> You have an LOI.
>> That's we that provision is not enforceable under the law. So, no, we but we do not have an LOI. >> Okay. Put in your bar license on the line. This is a complete application that the board is currently hearing. I I'm only going to tell you that the board engineer deemed it complete.
>> Put in your bar license. >> I'm not I answered the question. If you don't like the answer, I'm sorry. But that's >> Well, it sounds like you're afraid to answer the question. >> No, because you're making >> I'll put my license on. >> That's that's an unacceptable answer to a question to ask an attorney who's
testifying on behalf of his his client. His bar license is always on the line. >> All right. For making misrepresentations. and we've already discussed it multiple times that they have an application for an LOI that is part of our checklist as a requirement
to be deemed complete that has occurred that the board has the document or else they would have they wouldn't have gotten the application deemed complete by our board engineer. Okay, >> I got two questions. >> So, we're going to shut down that line. >> Two more questions. Two more questions. one,
>> do you could you elaborate how difficult or easy it might be to obtain this letter of no concerns from these outside agencies? >> No. >> Your personal belief? >> I have no idea. I've never heard of it before. So, and as Mr. Pressie says, it's very rare, you know. So, number
one, you're you're bordering on whether you're asking a religious organization to do something that it would not normally ask a regular applicant. We're not we're not objecting to it. We're agreeing to do it. >> I'll interject. Mr. Breie, the last planned board meeting, it wasn't
involving a religious u sites. He requested a letter of no concern. Is that correct, Mr. Breie? >> Yeah, it it is correct. So, please don't try to >> You asked an excuse for something that's being specially requested by the board. >> I don't think I have any other
questions. Thank you. All right. >> I wanted to run up here because uh >> Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Carlos Martins, M A R T I Ns. Um I live
at 406 Cobain Road, Jackson, New Jersey. Um yeah, I came running up here because I don't want time to run out and I have very quick questions. Um so I just want to make sure that Mr. Brassy, what you're calling the letter of no concern
is exactly the same list of items that um being called JD or whatever it is. I I just want to make sure that that's clear because it wasn't clear to me that it was exactly the same thing. So, just whatever. >> As I explained to the attorney and the applicant, the things that I wanted
listed for the uh D to look at, they stipulated they would do. >> Okay. If the D refuses to do that, >> then they can move on. If the D doesn't it and has a letter of concern, they have to come back and the D doesn't and they don't have a concern that uh they don't have to come back. And I I think
that almost every single thing that was brought up the last half hour ranting back and forth, every single one of those questions were here on this. So it's all covered not by us but by the next step in this application the D and also with the department of uh Ocean
County Health for the septic system. >> Right. Right. Perfect. I just want to make sure that when you JD thing has the same list >> and we agreed that we would submit it to the board engineer in advance to make sure that he's on board with the questions. So we have no issue with that. >> That's clear. Okay. All right. Thank
you. I just again just make sure it's all the same questions. Um Okay. Okay. And the last thing, so someone brought up that I didn't even think about the lighting and the impact it has to the wildlife, right? So I understand. So when you do your analysis, right, do you
consider lighting at all? Is that even part of your normal? No. So does lighting fall into like a black hole where nobody really looks at it? >> Yeah. If we could use a microphone. >> Okay. >> Well, also Mr. Martin. >> Yeah. in my questions was anything
they're doing on here if they have an effect in the habitat in any way. That's one of my questions in that list. >> And lighting would fall into that, right? >> Yeah. It was just something I didn't even think about until someone brought it up and I thought it was a good question. Um okay, great. And that So
that's it. Um I if we have time when we get to general comments, I do have a because so I'm Oh, I'm on the zoning board, right? But I'm here as a resident, right? But on the zoning board, we do have the same issue with uploading documents. Uploading documents and we we came up with a little solution
and maybe we'll help you guys too because I think we'll look into >> we encounter the same problems. >> Thank you. All right. Please raise your right hand. You swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record.
>> Brian Matthew. M A T H I EU. I live at 20 Mary Beth Lane, Jackson. Um I just have one question. So earlier we were talking about you were talking about the buffering and there was a difference. There were questions about whether it should be 300 or 600 and 600
was for a religious or for a house of worship. Excuse me. >> No no no >> no a question about the uh about the wetlands buffering. Uh in the Pineland section of town, uh there's an ordinance that requires a 300 foot wetland buffer
in the P is a pineland standard and then there's an additional 300 foot upland buffer attached to the wetlands. That only applies to properties that are in the pine lands. So this property is not in the pineand so that doesn't apply. What we have is a 300 foot riparian
buffer associated with the stream. >> Okay, that was my only question. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Greg Eisen, Eisen, 487 Frank Applegate Road. That's my
house right over the uh green spot there. My main concerns are the um privacy of my property and the generator that's going to be placed right next to my property. Also, uh, well, you know what? I have a whole list here.
>> What question? So, >> sir, >> yeah, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. >> We made a The uh applicants have stipulate stipulated that on your property there will be a 6 foot solid fence to ameliorate any sound issues or
any light issues onto your property. >> I understand that. I'm also concerned about the privacy of my property with with a 30-foot building right next to my property line. Sir, we had the applicants stipulate that they will be fencing the entire school property.
>> Yes, I I understand that. But you have a 30-foot building and a sixoot fence. I'm 6'2 and obviously 30 feet is quite a bit taller than I am. So the view from that building into my property is a a big concern of mine. So what can be done
about that? Yeah, the the issue I guess is that the height is less than what's um limited in the ordinance and we're not asking for any variance relief associated with the location of the building. So there's really not much the height is permitted
in the zone. >> So So what that means is that every zone has a height requirement. Some is 25, some is 35, some I don't know if we have taller than that in Jackson, but other townships do. So essentially you're saying there's nothing that can >> it's permitted in the zone.
>> Okay. Um the let's see we address the lights. So what's the lighting on the back of the building going to be like? >> Uh the lighting on on the back of the building would be minimal. It would be only only be at any uh doors on the back
side of the building. Don't don't anticipate any other lighting on that side of the building. >> Okay. I'm also concerned about that uh the stairway on the back of the building. I understand it's going to be covered, but is it going to be enclosed? >> I I think we said yes, it would be enclosed.
>> So, fully enclosed. It's not going to be an open stairwell at all. It's not just going to have a roof on. >> I I believe the architect was asked to uh cover it. And if my what I heard was correct, I think he agreed to to cover it. >> Yeah. I don't think it's a full enclosure that they're building because
it's only used by women on the one night potentially and during the week. It's not a regular access point. >> Okay. Um, what would the uh hours of construction and weekend construction be? >> Uh, whatever the ordinance allows, we
can't deviate from the that's not a planning board function. So, whatever I don't know specifically, but they do have time limits that that must be adhered to. >> Okay. all this all the stipulations we spoke about with um you know microwaves and uh the students leaving the property
and walking around and whatnot. How are we actually policing that? How are we checking to make sure that these are you know actually going to be followed? >> Well, >> because let me let me just explain. >> I I grew up in Ocean Township. I spent a lot of time in um in uh
Wanamasa where there are some yeshivas now and we had issues with you know kind of roving bands of kids that would end up causing trouble because they're they're you know 18 19 year old kids. >> So um the resolution if this is approved
will contain all of the stipulations that have been imposed or agreed to and um they're enforceable. We if if there's an issue, we would prefer you call the school and they would handle it, but you can always call code enforcement or the police and they're enforceable. The
conditions are enforceable. All right. Um I also work in Lakewood daily almost and uh I know that there are huge lines of cars waiting for the schools during pickup and drop off times
and to the point where it's almost impossible to drive around. I very concerned about that, you know, as my property is right next door and I need to be able to, you know, come and go for my property at will, >> right? And we've stipulated that no more
than 10% of the student body would arrive by cars. We don't even think it's going to reach that, but just as a conservative approach because they're bust. They're not they don't all live right there. >> Okay. And uh I guess my last question is the
landscaping that would be going up alongside of my property and other people's properties. Um how are we how are we making sure that you know you don't plant these trees and they just die tomorrow. Are we putting in an irrigation system or anything like that? >> There's a um I I don't know about the irrigation. So but there will be a
maintenance bond that's posted. So, after the project is built and the town accepts everything, then we have to post a two-year maintenance bond to make sure that everything's maintained before we can get that released. Irrigation, I don't know the answer to Mr. Grant, Mr. McFarland may or may not.
>> I don't know if we've discussed that yet. So, we we don't have the answer yet. >> Okay. And last, I just like to say that uh some of the people up here, the way that you speak to our town's folk is despicable. >> Thank you.
PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SWEAR OR affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes. >> Right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Carallo. G A L L O. 409 Frank Applegate Road. Um, first, can we stop calling them
kids? They're men that are going to be housed there. They are not children. 18 to 20 year old, they are grown men. I know I have two of them myself. 18 to 20 year old men, are they having visitors?
>> Rabbi, wait. Rabbi, take the microphone. >> They're not having visitors. So, you're going to tell me you have 66 18 to 20 year old young men who are not going to have female visitors, who are not going to have friends come,
>> right? That's correct. I mean, it's uh it's a a type of student body that's very dedicated. >> Sir, they're living there. You just said there seven days a week. >> Can he answer the question? >> I know that we do have some experience and we do know the student body that we're dealing with and generally the
boys that attend the school are generally the that will be dedicated to their studies. And we know that they don't have these types of things. They >> they may be dedicated to their studies, but they're still young men. >> I'm just speaking from years of experience and knowing the population
we're dealing with. >> Okay. And Madame Chairperson, you had stated about hitchhiking on Frank Applegate. However, you did not mention any of the surrounding roadways either. That needs to be stipulated. There
should be no hitchhiking in any area. >> And we did stipulate that the students may not leave the environment of the school. That means nowhere. >> You and I both know you are not containing with one chaperone.
66. >> We did double that, ma'am. >> Okay. So, >> we doubled it to two. But that but they have cameras. >> But they don't have eyes everywhere, ma'am. >> Excuse me. I'm answering your question. We
stipulated and they have stipulated on the record that they will have no students leave the environments of this the environments of the school which is going to be gated fenced property. So if you see anybody who has left that
school, call the school and report them and the school will take care of it. That's what schools are supposed to do. Okay. Um, another resident had sent me some
paperwork because he could not be here with some concerns of other residents. >> One of them, >> ma'am, this is somebody else's. >> It's just bullet points. >> If if it's not directly from you, you can't testify.
>> It's going to come directly from it doesn't matter res. So, it does concern me. >> It doesn't It doesn't matter. What happens is that we're governed by kind of a quasi rules of evidence and it's technically hearsay. It's a legal term,
right? So it's hearsay. So you you can't >> Well, why don't you give me a second to >> That's That's what I'm saying. So if if you if you want to ask your own questions in your own way, >> ask your own questions in your own way. So the first thing is category 1 title
water emissions violations of NJAC78713 anti-degradation public notice regulations. The most serious issue is the omission or mclassification of nearby category 1 title waters in
project documents public notices and potentially NJD correspondence. This omission invalidates storm water management any no juris no jurisdiction or no flood hazard not applicable claims
any C1 buffer delineations ma'am we we've already discussed that this is outside agency I' I've got to shut this down because it's getting repetitive and it's 10:40 at night so so any anything related to >> to D or anything of that that's that's
been asked and answered at this point is going to be rolled into the letter of jurisdiction and quite frankly if they don't meet the letter of jurisdiction the D could possibly just put a a gun to the back of the application's head and deny the entire thing. >> So or they come back to us with a new year. >> Well that's what the D I know but it's
10:40 at night. This has been asked probably five or six times just like you are. I understand, but when you're reading from a piece of paper, >> your water will be >> I understand. But the tideland issues, the the habitat issues, the the aquafer
issues, the wetland delineation issues, all of that is governed by the D, right? So, so there applicant's going to have to get that approval or else the application is dead. All right? They can't do anything. So, so anything D
related, let's just chalk it up that it's been asked and answered. Anything related to the to the ordinance, the setbacks, anything like that, just feel free to ask the applicant. >> Okay. Well, I'll wait for the rest of the commentary to come up.
>> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Please raise your right hand. Do you swear from tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name, spell your last for the record. >> Thomas Lombardi, Loom M A R DI, 187 Frank Applegate. So, a few technical questions. Uh, first is for Mr.
McFarland. Um, the underground storage basin that you have proposed underneath the parking lot, is that uh routed through the rear two basins to the Matita Conunk or towards the front of the property to Jackson uh towards Frank Applegate rather? >> That is routed to the rear two basins as
well. >> Okay. My concern was that there's a significant flooding history at Mary Beth. So that's actually a good thing. Um the sorry I my concern was that there's significant flooding at Mary Beth in the past. So it's actually a good thing. Um my second question is for
the architect. Um the proposed um gymnasium is there any provisions for rafters or seating? the the gym is only for exercise for the boys in the school there. We do not have spectator sports.
>> Okay. Thank you. Um the third question was uh for the traffic engineer, Mr. I believe it's Mr. Reya. >> Um uh my question is that your traffic impact report that's going to the county. Um is that going to address the
impact to the traffic signal to the south at Bennett Mills Road? >> That'll be something that the county will review. We're not responsible for reviewing that. They'll take into consideration the amount of traffic projected and how and how much of that traffic is routed through that intersection.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you, >> M. >> No bleachers. >> Tom Glass. >> Yeah, that we would stipulate that. >> All right. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> All right. Please state the name of
spell your last for the record. >> Uh Thomas Glass, 277 Frank Applegate Road. I think I understood that there's an application for a water line from Jackson Mills to supply the uh water to
the facility. >> Yes, that's correct. Uh if that is not approved, is there a contingency plan to supply the water? Uh I'm assuming by well uh if that was not approved, that would be the only other alternative.
And if so, uh uh would the uh impact of uh those wells uh be studied regarding the aquifer and uh any effects they might
have on our turbidity and quality of water and depth of aquifer? Well, again, that's that's a hypothetical question, not not what's propo been proposed as part of this application, but well permits would be uh regulated by the NJ. >> Uh if the water line is approved uh and
uh installed, how long uh will Frank Applegate uh be torn up and uh uh restricting traffic? >> I I don't have an answer to that question. If the water line is approved, will uh
residents be required to connect to it and pay for water going forward? >> That would be up to the MUA. Also in this town, there is no mandatory hookup unless if there's a a well failure and it can't be replaced in a uh
line, the 208 is there, the line's there and your well fails, then you could be required. Other than that, there's no hookup man mandate on the MUA line. >> So people on wells can retain retain their wells and utilize them. >> Yes. And and just so just so we're we're
clear, what happens in Jackson Township is that if the developer puts the line in, they have to pay for it and they also have to pay for the installation fees for anybody else that is hooking up to it. So >> I'm not we don't agree with >> it. It's it's part of the package that the I'm not stipul I'm not putting that
as a stipulation. I'm saying that based upon conversations I've had with the MUA, the developer if it's if they're putting a new line in the new area, uh the MUA typically has a developer pay for it. So just just there's no there's no detriment to you in that sense.
>> Thank and I've never seen I don't want to disappoint you. I've never seen the MUA back off on that neither. >> Well, that's an MUA issue with the battle we'll have with them. It's not a board function. So >> yeah, I know that. Have fun with it. >> Yep. >> All right. there was some sort of uh testing associated with the uh the
septic system. >> I I said there was uh some sort of testing associated with the septic system. Okay. Will that include checking contamination in the wetlands? >> Well, I've stipulated that the septic
system would require a permit from the D which um sets forth all the technical requirements for the level of treatment that's provided. So would have to comply with all those standards. >> And and how often would that type of testing take place?
>> Whatever the D requires as part of their permit. >> Uh uh would the wellwater aquifer uh be monitored as as uh a part of that sewage uh contamination testing? >> Uh no, I don't believe so. What's
monitored is the effluent uh being discharged from the septic system. Uh what is the uh the noise level adjacent to the property lines? Uh that's permitted. >> I I don't have an answer to that question. >> There's a there there is a sound
ordinance in town that >> they have to comply with local. >> We have to comply this board cannot give relief from that. So it has to be fully compliant. Uh I I noticed that the generator uh is is up towards the uh the street area in the
uh buffer zone. I was wondering if that could be moved further back from the road providing the local resident uh more noise relief as well as folks across the street in the area. We >> well we agreed to install a solid fence
along that property line. Plus, there's a sound attenuation um enclosure that um would be required as well that we stipulated too. >> Uh how will the uh dormatory residents uh be evacuated in the event of fire or
other emergency? Uh that doesn't look like it's >> I'm not sure that's a planning board function either, but um that's certainly something that they'll have to work with whatever the emergency management. You'd be the fire marshal. >> Fire marshal. >> But that's not something this board
deals with. >> Uh will the uh buffer zone along uh uh added along Frank Applegate interfere with uh uh traffic safety and eress visibility? >> No, the buffer would be kept out of the
required uh site site easements. >> Thank you. Uh I've heard microwaves stipulated a number of times. I'm assuming the uh the attempt is to eliminate cooking devices, but there are other types besides
microwaves like heating plates, etc. And also a concern with things like electric heaters. Uh uh can those be stipulated in addition to the microwaves? I I don't know about heating plates or
he heating plates. I mean again >> if if the applicant would stipulate to no cooking devices that make things easier. >> Yes. So there's no in the living room in the rooms. There's cooking >> in the rooms. Yes. Also with heaters,
>> right? And it's all going to have to be fire compliant pursuant to the fire marshals review. >> Internal heating devices of of any type. uh can create additional fire hazards for all of those folks.
Is the uh operation plan uh as regards to the traffic enforceable in any way? Uh or if it has changed uh will that have to be reviewed again >> going forward? >> I'm not sure. the traffic
plan, >> the operating uh timelines for the busing and coming and going to and from the school, etc. were stipulated mostly outside of hightra uh time
periods. And I was just wondering if that's >> Well, yeah, the hours of operation um are what was testified to, >> right? And and >> so just so the public's aware,
there really isn't anything in your ordinance that prohibits the school from operating any hours that it wants to operate, but we've stipulated what they are the that we're willing to live with. So So I'm not sure if that's responsive, but that's the reality. We're what we
testify to is what's going to happen. >> Thank you. Please raise your right hand. You swear affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> My name is Teresa Rivera. I live at 439. >> You would have you have to Affirmative. Yes. >> Affirmative. Yes. >> Okay.
>> My name is Teresa Rivera. I live >> If you could just speak into the microphone. >> I live at 439 Frankgate Road. >> Just say say your name and and spell your last for our board secretary. >> Teresa Rivera. R I V E R A. 439 Frank Applegate Road. There's flooding all on
that road. The county put in a sewer drainage in front of my house and then across the street. It still floods. It rains. I have a lake in front of my house. There's a lake in front of the house across the street. The rain comes down. Now you're going to have more
buildings. >> Do you have Do you have a question for the applicant? >> Yes. So, what are they going to do with addressing the flooding that's already going on on the road? And now you're going to be putting more concrete, less areas where the ground's going to absorb water when we're already not absorbing
water as it is. >> And just speaking to the microphone, it's hard to hear. >> This is a wetlands. I mean, this is a problem and you're adding >> So, Graham, you can you respond to that, please? >> Well, sure. The the overall storm water management plan is designed to reduce the amount of uh runoff a after
development. So, the post-development condition, there's less runoff coming from this property than there is in a pre-development condition. Um so if there is any um any um deficiency in the systems right now they will not be uh impacted by this
project and this project is subject to uh review by the OSHA county engineering department since since Frank Applegate is a uh is a county roadway. >> And another question since this is a wetlands it's a conservative wetlands area with a lot of animals. Ju just just
to be clear, the area they're building on is not wetlands. >> The delineation line is proof of that, but I'll let the applicant. >> Okay. But we're we are condensing a huge massive building onto a 5.6. >> If you have a question for the applicant, >> we have a huge building being put on a
5.6 acre parcel. The rest of that area is not buildable. Isn't there another piece of property somewhere in Jackson that it would be more appropriate so that you could utilize this building which is a beautiful building to where people can see it's a beautiful building
instead of squishing it in where it really doesn't belong? >> Well, we we don't think it's squished in because we comply with all there's no variance associated with it. So >> you're 50 feet from from residential areas on both sides, >> right? But we comply with the ordinance. So this is the location that the school
chose as what they felt is the proper location for their school and we comply with the ordinances. So I'm not sure what else we can say on behalf of the school. >> Thank you. >> Please raise your right hand. You swear
affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state the name and spell your last for the record. >> Glenn Marklin, M A R K U L I N 129 Frank Applegate. And my question is for the traffic. >> Uh you said you did on your study with counting the buses, the vehicles for the
staff and possibly parents. What about the delivery trucks? They're talk about they're going to be catering. So that's at least one or three trucks a day. That that may occur, but that's during the uh off peak hours when traffic volumes are less. >> We live on the road. It's all peak hours.
>> No. Well, no. What we do is we look at the highest uh traffic volume periods to assess the operational efficiency. So any other times it's going to operate even better than what type presented and I indicated this operates and the sport hasn't heard this often
but it operates level service a normally we're dealing with things with greater delays than what we're presenting here. It means that vehicles entering or exiting the site have to wait no longer than 10 seconds. Um the other question is since this is a school, would that some point change the
speed limit in that area as a school zone? >> That is something that uh would be come through a request from the township to the county that wouldn't be subject to the applicant >> and then flashers on the road if it's you know most schools have flashers as you're coming because you you spoke how
you can see in the uh direction it's not a bend. I mean were you actually on the property where the driveway will be to look to your left because >> yes it it's actually as you're coming out looking to your left there is there is vegetation that encroaches into the
roadway uh that needs to be cut back to the uh rightaway line to provide the sight lines and that's what we would have discussions with Ocean County on that that there's maintenance issues that need to be taken care of because they have vegetation encroaching onto the roadway. So the sighteline's not
currently there now unless you take out the trees or the vegetation >> along the right. Yeah, my measurements are based along the rightway that's available and which would require vegetation to be uh removed. >> Okay. And uh just as a resident, I'm sure a lot can speak about this. The
traffic is horrible on that road, especially when the Cedar Swamp we saw how bad and the speeding is insane. So we're just adding more traffic. >> Well, thank you. >> That was when Cedar Swamp was closed. That that was a temporary situ. >> One other time, guys.
>> Thank you. >> Please raise your right hand. You swear, affirm, tell the whole the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last on the record. >> Joseph Holland. H O L A N D 398 Frank
Applegate Road, Jackson. Uh this is for the rabbi. We all know this town is 100 square miles. Why are we going to put that facility in that area? What was the
feasibility of doing this? >> I I don't >> Yeah. So I'm going to deem this asked and answered simply due to the fact that under the municipal land use law, you can't deal in hypotheticals. It has to be specific. So, so in a sense, you can't ask an applicant to relocate a
site somewhere else. It has to be based upon the application at the time of filing what's in front of the board. >> It's a permitted use. That's why they chose this location. >> Jackson's 100 square miles. You can see all the shortcomings up screen there.
>> It's miscellaneous law, >> right? Just wanted to bring that to the attention of you people here and hopefully you take that into consideration seriously. Thank you. >> Please raise your right hand. Please swear affirm take to uh speak the truth.
Nothing but the truth. So help you God. >> Yes, I do. Um Dan, >> please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> I got that. Dan Adams, Adams, 521 Frank Applegate Road. One simple question for the rabbi. I've heard a lot of talk, but
nothing about the curriculum of the school. >> Is this There's no ordinance that the board has jurisdiction over that requires >> Can I ask my question? >> No, I'm I'm going to cut you off on that. It's that the board does not have
the ability to approve or deny based upon the subject material that's taught at a school. Well, based on what I see, I've been serving our armed forces since 1980. >> Thank you very much for your service. >> It looks very militaristic to me. And my
question, if I could ask, was is this a pre-military Shiva? >> Is this prepping young men for the IDF? >> Wow. >> No. >> Yeah. I'm going to let the RUP attorney on this one. >> Direct that the board members not consider that comment question. Um, this
board does not have jurisdiction over the curriculum. Um, and that is not a question that should be considered as part of this application. >> Please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing about the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and
spell your last of the record. >> Linda Thompson. T H O M P S O N 417 Frank Applegate. Question about the busing. Um, is it private busing? Is it paid by the taxpayers or is it private pay? >> It's not. Um, we have private busing,
but the mechanism for payment's not relevant to an application either. Whatever the state law is, it is for every bus, not just the school. >> So, we don't know where the money's coming from for that. >> It's I don't know the answer, but it's not again not relevant to a planning
board application. Every school is treated the same. >> Okay. Question. Uh, another question about the um traffic. I guess this is the traffic gentlemen. Frank Applegate is not only a super speedway now, it also brought a light over on Bennett
Mill Road, which since that light has been put there, there's been a few deaths. There's been accidents, over accidents. That road goes across to Butterfly. The traffic on Frank Applegate has gotten so
bad because it crosses over to Butterfly, goes out to um 528 and goes out to Tom's River. Bottom line, it's become a much more speed existence to Tom's River. That's what's
caused it beside Jackson Mills Road. The other side is gotten just as bad. And I don't think that when you do these traffic reports, I don't know what time of day, but my kids get on the bus, my grandchildren actually get on the bus, some at 7:30 in
the morning, some at 8:15, and some at 9:00. And I didn't hear any of those times being disclosed as to traffic at that time. Buses stopping and unfortunately some kids crossing the streets. And we've heard tons of
accidents where the buses, kids are crossing the street, the buses aren't stopping, people aren't stopping, kids are getting hit by cars. It's a nightmare. >> As far as the time periods, the time periods are from 7 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and then 3 to 6:00 p.m. So, would it
cover those period especially in the morning as far as school activities, school buses associated with other schools in the town? >> Just Jackson. I'm only worried about the Jackson. Again, we just did the traffic counts at Frank Applegate and Jackson Mills Road,
>> and they they were done during the week. >> Yes, they were June Wednesday, June 4th, 2025. >> Okay. And Okay. Thank you very much. >> You're welcome. >> Please raise your right hand. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. I'll give it my best.
>> All right. You know the drill. >> Eric Jones. Can you spell that? >> J O N E S 72 Heisel. >> You got it. Okay. Um the only questions I have, make it simple. Um is this going to be a clear cutting operation inside that green? A little the the light green
totally everything bond. >> Uh yes. What you see inside the light green will be clear to allow for the project to be developed. Um, given that this is shoved all the way to one corner, is there a chance that the applicant will subdivide in the future? >> There are no plans to subdivide the property right now.
>> Is it subdividable? I don't know. That's just question. Um, when you look at this, how far are you obligated to go towards the lot that's in between in between the piece of property? I can't see the other side. So, >> uh, the side the sideyard set back is 50
ft. Like I'm saying like if you have to put a sidewalk in, how far are you obligated to go around the curve? >> I'm not sure what you're asking. >> Uh the board want the board. >> Are you just obligated to do something within your con of your job?
>> Along our front said they want us to put sidewalk along the property frontage which is here. And then this property is kind of U-shaped, right? >> There's another piece of the frontage. >> I don't know if he has a picture of that other side. >> Uh we don't have another piece of frontage which is down here. And the board said they'd like the sidewalk there if you can get a permit from the
>> Well, the only reason I'm asking like somebody else said is u that's a blind curve. You don't know what's on that curve till you're on the curve. So I was just asking that because I don't know if you guys are responsible to you're adding a driveway in a spot that's very
hazardous. So I don't know if you're responsible to come all the way down to your other side of your >> Mr. Kennel just testified. And you can kind of see on this plan we it does show on this plan there is a required sight line sight visibility line which is from here. >> I'm not talking sight line for you. I'm
talking sight line somebody coming blind around. >> That's what I'm talking about. Sight visibility. So there's required sight visibility line that goes along. >> Sorry, but that's not >> you guys should be able to clear your other side of your property and include
the guy in the middle. So it's one shot. the line the line that we have shown on a plan. >> Yeah, I see what you're saying, but you're stopping only on one part of your property, not the other side. >> Yeah, but just remember that there's a difference between the right of way in the property line. We can clear
everything in the right of way. >> Okay. I'm just going from a safety aspect. And uh the other question I was probably rabbi can answer. Um since you have a generator, would you consider using this as an emergency place if power goes out like for the neighborhood? Let's say
it's in the middle of the winter and the power goes out and you're the only guy in the town that has the power. Would you consider using that? The gymnasium has a >> They would consider it. I'm not sure what that entails, but >> No, no, I'm just just asking. It's just, you know, good being neighborly. That's all. We have buildings all over the place, but they don't have generators.
>> He said yes. >> Okay. Thank you. >> That would be a stipulation. >> Yeah. It's just I I don't know who we would coordinate that with, but um >> EMS. Yes. >> No. Right. >> Fine. That's pretty extreme. >> Raise your right hand.
>> Ryan Archer. A R C H E R. >> Oh, hang on. Hang on. Please raise your right hand. >> Do you swear? Affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Ryan Archer. Last name. A R C H E R. >> On my phone here, I have a map that I pulled off.
>> What's What's your address just for the record? >> I don't need to. >> Yes. Yes, you do. >> In the zoning board, I don't have to do it here. >> 486 Frank Applegate Road. Okay. All right. I can explain to you why if you want. Understood. All right. >> I pulled the map off the D website a
couple months ago and it shows this property in question and on this map it highlights the entire area of the school as either forested habitat state threatened or forested wetland habitat state threatened. Has that changed since this map has been published? >> Uh if you're looking at a D map, I'm not
I'm not sure that have to be submitted into the record. >> Question for me. Can we address the biologist? So, >> so it it it's so what what h what happens when you have a map, you can't just show somebody something on your phone. What happens is that you have to submit it into evidence as an exhibit.
And if you can't do that, it can't become part of the record. >> But Brian can answer based upon what he knows. >> If it's if it's landscape 3.4, it's it's the newest rendition of the landscape plan. >> So, it meets the requirements of the map. >> Well, it all I'm sorry.
>> Yeah. You got all the um all the mapping is based off forest areas different parameters. So some soil um moisture that kind of thing. So um when they map it typically everything needs to be
ground truth. They're you know aerial maps from 20,000 ft above. >> Sorry. >> Um they're they're high level maps. Yeah. >> Okay. Fair enough. Okay. I have a question for Remington Verdict. The gentleman from I don't know who is from
Remington Verdict. Someone here >> that would be our planner. >> Yeah. Uh were you directed by the planning board to create a uh general amendment of the master plan dated at October 5th, 2023 for the township? >> Sir, we're we're we're not we we're not going to take master plan questions to
the >> but it's relative to this this application >> be directly relevant to the application. >> Okay. So, in that in that document, there's there's there's language in there that talks about protecting existing neighborhoods and making sure that applications blend in with that
without adversely affecting the existing character of the neighborhood. >> I'll answer I'll answer that by saying that this is a permitted use with an ordinance that is valid and they meet all the conditions. There's no variances. >> And this application, >> that would be the answer to that. And
this application is a result of the lawsuit and felon consent order that this township signed. Correct. >> So >> the ordinance >> the application is the result of the applicant choosing to file it. The ordinance that was passed that made this
uh created this as a permitted use in the R3 zone along this particular road was the result of the litigation instituted by the United States Department of Justice. >> Correct. And you represented the township in that consent order. Correct, sir? >> That is correct, sir.
>> Okay. And who was the signers of the consent order for the township? >> I forget who the council president, >> Mike Raina and Mr. Chisum. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. During that time, did you provide legal advice to the mayor of this township? >> I was the attorney.
>> Correct. Did you review documentation correspondence that the mayor received? >> I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. Did you review correspondence that the mayor received? Official correspondence. >> Is that related to this application? >> It is because this is relative to the
fact that Mr. Pullman did not direct a mayor to recuse himself from this consent order >> because you're you're challenging the consent order. >> I am challenging consent order, sir. Okay. And how it applies to this application is very clear because I was the mayor didn't vote on the consent
order. >> He signed it, sir. The mayor did not vote on the consent order. The council >> passed the consent order. >> But who signed it? >> The council president who if it was Mr. Chisum at the time, him and the mayor. >> I'll give you a date to look up and then you could tell me if he was politically
biased or politically persuaded. >> Hang on. >> January 14th, 2020. >> Hang on one second. >> Thank you. >> Okay, >> I'm going back to the You're >> all done? All right. Y >> totally biased. Back to the application. Does the turning radiuses in and out of that school allow for buses to turn
without obstructing the opposing lane of traffic? >> Yes, it does. >> It does. >> Okay. Regards to left-hand turns out of the driveway, will you be installing a positive measure so that people cannot make left-hand turns out of there?
>> Why? >> Mr. Kenn Mr. Kennel testified about the traffic volume and the level of service and he's probably the one to answer the question more uh definitively, but this is a 30 foot wide driveway which provides for adequate means of ingress and eress for for the the buses um that
are going to be using the site. >> So left hand and right hand turns are acceptable. >> They're permitted. Correct. >> Fair enough. Like again, I appreciate your time, Mr. Pullman. Please look up the date, January 14th, 2020. and you let me know if this consent order was
illegitimate. Please raise your right hand. >> You swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last on the record. >> Joanne Pinkham. P I N K H A M as in Michael one. Chris Anort first to the
professionals. You've been here for years and years serving us. Thank you. I appreciate it. Everybody's time and attention. Appreciate it greatly. The applicant, Mr. Alfie, you know, you represented Hard Maple years ago with an
with a subdivision. Now, at that time, that application was withdrawn because of the Sheamus pit. I would like read into the record. >> Ma'am, >> excuse me. I'm asking for excuse me. >> So So right now is question time. >> Okay. And I am asking for the letter
that closed the case for the remediation to be read into record. That's an important document. >> It's already part of the record, ma'am. >> Again, are you talking about the remediation? >> Yes. It's already part of the record.
>> If that has clo Excuse me. Excuse me, please. >> Ma'am, it's already part of the record. I understand that, but I'm asking it to be read into the record. >> We're not going to read the entire order under the record. That That's >> already part of the It's already part of the record. >> Excuse me.
>> Shenanigans is inacceptable right now. I am asking for an important documentation that has not been supplied to me as in any of the other 31 pages of >> Ma'am, you you have the ability if you
want to do your own due diligence. Every township citizen has the Hang on, let me answer. Every township citizen has the right to go down to the planning office and inspect the file prior to the application. That is their right under the municipal land use law. >> Okay.
>> It's part of that file. >> You should be working with me, not against me. Ma'am, that being said, excuse me. 11:09 at night. I'm not reading a four page order in the >> move on please. So that being said,
to make to make things, >> all done. All done. >> So to to let's be a little bit more specific because you talked in generalities before. Um, >> November 15th, 2013, Rabbi Abati was
fined for the Sheamus dumping. Um, >> ma'am, we need we need you to frame it as a question. >> Yes, I am framing it as a question. >> Then please do so. >> My question is the document that I have not yet seen is of concern for me
because this large monstrosity is above my aquifer. >> Okay. Where's the question? >> My aquifer. >> So the question is >> how and I appreciate Mr. Breie's opportunity to uh speak up for us with
the the jurisdictional determination for the land use permits. My question is where is the security for us that my my drinking water my children's drinking water and now my grandchildren's
drinking water is going to be not just because if I understood it correctly there it doesn't have to be tested periodically it was only in relation to septic discharge correct >> if the engineer can answer the
Is that correct? >> If the question is related to the uh the septic field, the answer is yes. Uh the applicant will have to provide periodic testing of the effluent being disposed from the septic fields. >> And how is that determined?
>> By the D. >> So in essence, you were trying to you're asking us to take this on blind faith, right? I understand that this this meets the It's not it's it's not it's not blind faith and you're not asking
questions. Okay? You're going on a diet tribe which the next section is for. >> Excuse me. But let me just >> hang on hang on one sec. Let me just explain this to you. >> I understand what you're saying. >> The D It's not blind faith because the D has absolute unmitigated control >> over the approval of that type of
system. >> The board has absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever to approve or deny an application based off of that type of system. >> Okay. So isn't it in essence maybe our due diligence to wait and ensure that we
receive all of these D? >> That is illegal. Ma'am, you can't do that. >> Why? >> Because you the law says that you cannot force an applicant to obtain all outside agency approval before being deemed complete for a board application. That
is the law. >> I didn't say to >> that is what you're That's what you're inferencing. I'm no if you would allow me. You're looking for correct the applicant is looking for preliminary and final site plan approval allin one. It
just seems that that's a little bit large of an ask that perhaps we should revisit this application after and maybe do a preliminary. Why can't we just consider take under consideration that this be a preliminary
since there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions? >> That's what I'm asking. >> And if you would allowed me to continue, you would have got the question out of me a little bit soon. That is up. >> I'd like to say one thing to that, Mr. Keer, that um if we did preliminary
>> and then a final, they still would not receive those certifications until they got their final. That's how these outside agencies work because they want to look at the complete application, what was approved, and all the data involved, >> right? But with all >> No matter what you did, you you you just
aren't going to change nothing because you're not going to get sent them papers until they get an approval to go there and the D, Ocean County Health, and all the agencies can see exactly what they got, right? And besides that, by doing that, we give them an extra five years of protection if something changes in
the town. So, what you're saying is is the board would is not willing to consider preliminary approval. This >> the board hasn't made a determination at this time yet. The votes not up. >> So, would the applicant be receptive to that?
>> No. >> When you come in, when you submit an application, isn't it to kind of blend with the neighboring residents? No. >> And feel like you're working with us. >> It's supposed to comply with the ordinance, not
>> right. And I appreciate that we are we have the ordinance and I understand that we're meeting you are within your ordinance. The law the application meets what is deemed necessary thanks to our new ordinance. But isn't it kind of
wouldn't it be a little bit more neighborly if you were to secure some of these concerns of us residents that have to live with the effects of this application >> and show a little bit more >> harmony. Yes.
>> With the existing community. >> Yes. Because we cannot put a shovel in the ground until all of those approvals are in place. So whether we get preliminary or final, it's meaningless until we get all the other approvals.
>> Right. Okay. So what you're saying is that every single the jurisdictional determination letter no concern. Letter of no concern.
How will that be made? Um how will we be will we be notified? Will the residents within 200 f feet be notified if for some reason the application isn't does not the D will not issue that? >> Yes. If if we have to come back to this
board because we cannot because the D doesn't approve the application then we have to come back to this board and do this all over again on notice to the public. >> Okay. So if the DP either rejects
some of those uh qualifi six or so uh qualifications you wanted met Mr. Brassie or denies them. >> I'm not sure what rejecting versus >> you are I'm just making sure that I heard this correct that it would require
notice to the to the surrounding >> residents within 200 ft. What we agreed to is if the D were to deny it, then we would have to come back to this board. If we come back to this board, yes, it would be a revised site plan on notice to the public the same way as it was this evening.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Ray Katona live form road. >> Hang on one sec. You swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Ray Katoner. C A T O N A R. >> And your address for the record.
>> Excuse me. >> Add your address for the record. >> 11 Forom Road. I just had a question. I was looking at your plans and I was curious. I would love to have seen the septic boundaries uh which are left out. I watched a nice
laser go around in a circle and usually in prior planning meetings we've been able to see more detailed mapping. I know you've sent it to the planning board but it would have been nice to actually have that here to be honest and also more >> a question for the applicant.
>> That's the question is why would why was that left out? I mean that's probably one of the most important things being in such an environmental sensitive piece of property. That's just a graphical representation of the plan. It doesn't show underground features. So the disposal fields are not
shown on that display that you're seeing as A2. >> Well, we could have saw the boundaries actually if you know where the septic systems are. >> I shown on the plans that were submitted to the board available for the public to inspect.
>> And and just one question for you. So are you >> I've just spent five hours here. >> Hang on. Hang on. Hang. Are you a member of the environmental commission? >> Yes. And I'm here as a resident. >> As a resident. Yes. >> Okay. All right. >> So, they were on the plans that were submitted to the environmental commission as well as plans that were
submitted to the planning board and the professionals. >> But the audience behind me did not was not able to actually see it. I mean, we all >> correct. They're not shown on this display and I've testified that there are three of them shown on this plan. There's one, two, three currently shown on the plan right now.
>> Again, though, I just make a comment. It would have been nice to see the boundaries. That's all. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. He beat you to it. >> Raise your right hand. Do you swear, affirm, tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record.
>> Greg Griffin. G R I F. >> Greg Griffin. G R I FF I N. >> Your address. >> 423 Frank Applegate Road. >> Thank you. First of all, I'm sorry for that gentleman that has that house up there. I feel so bad for him.
>> No one buys a house. >> You have You have a question for the >> Yes. professionals. Yeah. >> You mentioned your property is U-shaped, but you don't allude to the other half of that. Do you plan on building there? >> No. The only uh portion of the site to be be developed is what you see on that
map. >> Okay. Because I look at it, there's a lot of traffic going in there, but one way in, one way out. Usually places have two exits, one entrance or two entrances. How do you get away with that? >> Uh the traffic engineer testified level
of service A, which is the highest level of service. So this this uh site access is adequate to service the proposed development. >> Okay. Maybe, maybe not. Um we mentioned lights, septics. >> I I just wanted to mention there is
another emergency. >> That's emergency, right? Another emergency area over on the very top, not just >> Yeah, that's like a gravel road, right? >> Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Talking about really entrance, really exit type of thing, but that's
what they say. >> I know we talked about lights and septics. >> What about the noise pollution? Will they have big air conditions on the roofs? >> So, they're going to have to comply with the local ordinance. So, what happens in the township is the township has a noise
ordinance and every commercial residential operation has to comply with it. Um, and that's actually, believe it or not, governed by um I believe it's a DCA actually is the one that approves it. So, if if Jackson has a DCA approved local ordinance, it's it's criminal in
nature to violate it. >> All right. As long as they look after that, because I like to sit out back and listen to the tree frogs and to the crickets, not the air condition. All right? You know, when you get that motel room, you don't want to be next to the air condition, right? So, that's what I'm just concerned about this running
all night. It's going to be people living there, right? So, that's my thought. I hope it doesn't happen. I'm sorry, guys. >> All right. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear, affirm, tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record.
>> Holly Reynolds. R E Y N O L Ds Mary Beth. Um I find it a little inappropriate that we don't have the plans with the grade lines because if I'm supposed to cross-examine my questions pertain to
stuff on those plans, >> right? They've they've complied with the items on the checklist required for the plans that are necessary for >> I mean I have it here but for me to cross >> I understand that but you're going to have to ask the applicants questions. >> Okay. For the storm water infiltration
um number three where do you have the discharge going to? Uh, it has an outlet structure and a flare section and a scar hole that goes to the riparian buffer. >> Um, so you have it discharging to a slope.
>> Correct. >> And in accordance with off-site stability standards, are you allowed to discharge directly onto a slope? >> Yes. The project will have to comply with Ocean County Soil Conservation District standards for that off-site stability and the discharge of the storm water. >> Right. In off-site stability, you need
to have your stable receiving area within 100 ft. A slope is not a stable receiving area. >> I disagree with your your opinion. Um my representation is that the plan is going to comply with the Ocean County Soil Conservation District requirements, >> but they don't because they don't have a
certified plan. So, they're not in compliance with the Ocean County Soiler. application. We have gotten review comments. We do not yet have a certified plan. >> Right. And ma'am, just to be clear, you're here in your personal capacity, not as a member of the environmental commission. Correct. >> Correct. I um I live across the street.
>> I understand. But if you're have 20 years experience, >> if you're a public official and and which you technically are as a member of the environmental commission, you have to come up here as in your individual capacity. I'm just verifying that to protect you. >> Yes. I am not asking any questions pertaining to the environmental commission.
My questions are pertaining to my experience as 20 years of stormwater management. >> Go ahead. >> So I totally disagree that the off-site stability standard is not being met with the Ocean County Soil Conservation
District and I agree with Mr. Breie who asked for the no concern of that. But we are not looking. Nobody mentions anything about the soil conservation districts which review all of these storm water management facilities. >> Right. And we agreed that Mr. McFarland
did testify that we had to obtain soil conservation district approval as well. >> Right. Which you will not get discharging to a slope. >> Then then we have to redesign. But that's a condition condition of approval. We need their approval. >> All right. Well, what about the um the
the first infiltration basin? They you have a septic system which you can't see on here which the septic field drains right into the infiltration system. >> Is that correct? >> No.
>> How is you have a septic field and the slopes drain into that depression area which drains into the infiltration basin. Number one, >> I I don't understand what the question is and what you're alluding to. >> This is why we need to have those kinds of
>> ma'am. I I I understand you, but what happens is that we have no purview or jurisdiction over septic systems. I don't know how many times I can say this, but but it's I understand it's not a joke, but at the same time, what happens is that the board cannot approve
or deny an application based upon the engineering of a septic system. It has to go from here to the board of health if it's under a certain threshold. If it's over a certain threshold, it goes to the D and the state has to formally acknowledge and approve the engineering.
We if we if we ever in our right minds denied an application off the engineering aspect solely alone on an application for a septic system, we would be sued into oblivion. and and then it you can't do >> the problem is is that you're accepting
that they are going to be okay with the second. >> That's that's not that's not what No. So what happens is that if it goes to the state and the state says listen this doesn't look right. It looks like your calculations are off or your engineering looks like it's hokey. They're going to come back and say denied and then
they're going to come right back to the board. They're going to have to have a whole new use. The whole thing is going to get shut down. >> So isn't it kind of working backwards then? Welcome to New Jersey. >> As as we stated, they do not get these approvals until after they get a deemed application complete because the outside
agencies want to see everything that was approved, not what we changed, not what the applicant changed. They want to see what was approved. They can make their decision on these things. Be it whatever it is, the septic and that's Ocean County Health and the D. What we talked about with the wells and everything
else. Once they see the complete data and that's what's been approved just like the planners does after the gets approval that's only the first step then they have to go to these other agencies and obtain them. If they can't get them it's done or they have to come back and amend their application.
>> All right. Okay. So, I guess we'll be back here because there's no way that the soil conservation district is going to approve that plan and the only way that you can get any water from there is to pipe it into the stream and that D permit permit to get it into a seaw waterway is nearly impossible. >> Ma'am, if that's the case and the
application is dead in the water and the applicants just waste money. So, if that's your perspective, then it might be true. >> Right. >> I have no more questions. Ridiculous. All right. Do you swear or affirm the tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing
but the truth? >> I affirm. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Pre pals. P A L Solomon Court Jackson. I am here neither in support of nor opposition to this application. I firmly believe that How you doing? I firmly
believe that every property owner has the right to develop or use their land in accordance how the ordinance permits it. You live and you die by the ordinance. So, if I may, is my understanding correct that the ordinance in the town says applicant prepares, submits to professionals, professionals
review, >> report back to applicant. So, at some point we arrive at an administratively and technically complete application. >> That is correct. And my understanding is that it's what we have now. >> That is correct.
>> Beautiful. So earlier, can we >> A1 I think it is. An individual was asking about his house. Uh and they showed this picture and they're saying this is where you see the houses. Are there any I've looked at this package. Where is the drawing that
shows the houses within 200 feet of this property in accordance? Let me take out my notes here. Whoops. Uh 244-28.1B parenthesis 12. >> I think you're referencing
>> the professionals for the town. Am I correct in the uh understanding? First of all, they apply both to zoning and planning board submissions. Correct. The ordinances. So my understanding is is that ordinance which we've been talking a lot about, you know, you can't do. Well, we got to do it because the ordinance we Okay. Ordinance. That
ordinance says that the applicant will provide a drawing showing every property within 200 ft of this application. So if I I don't live here, but I've been through this with the zoning board. So if I lived here and I said, "hm, they're
going to do this. My house is here. How how does it relate spatially to my house? What's going on?" You can look at this drawing and you can see ah there's my house and here's the school and yada yada. So I ask in compliance with the AF
for said ordinance, where is the drawing that shows this in accordance with the ordinance? And if it's not there, >> who's who we talking to here? You're not doing on the cover page of the application, there's a diagram that has
a dashed circle that represents 200 feet around the property. >> Does anybody have the 12? I didn't bring it with me. that I understand that's for property owners. The ordinance specifically states that you will show all structures within 200 feet of this
property. Uh engineer sir, is this true? Look at this is the ordinance. Let me read it again or the number at least. 244-28.1B12. It's in English. show the structures within 200 feet of this project. How
else is a homeowner supposed to relate to this and and and assess it and make comments? >> It's it's in the preliminary and site plan application. I'll let let the applicant >> it's part of the submission. >> Okay. Wait a second then. Can Anthony,
can you pull it up then? Anthony, I mean, or engineer uh applicant, what page shows all the properties, all the uses or the houses within 200 ft of that property? And if if it's not there, how could this
application possibly be approved by the engineer like you're saying? Now, >> can >> it's an ordinance. >> You want to answer? >> We've heard that word a lot. >> Yeah. Uh the plan the plan uh the cover
sheet shows all the properties within 200 feet of the uh of the subject application and provides a list of all property owners within 200 feet of the subject property that were used for notification. >> Understood. However, the ordinance says you will show the structures. Are the structures shown on that sir?
>> Uh it does not show structures. >> Does the ordinance engineers does the ordinance require that the structures be shown? says you're going to show the structures within 200 ft. >> Mr. Cle, if you just use a microphone,
>> I should have bought the ordinance. I just read it. Um I have um your ordinance 244-30.3.11 which is the um submission requirements for preliminary site plan requires topographic features within 100 ft of
the site be provided. The applicing waiver of that and I believe the testimony he's providing is indicating that he can he's addressing that through his exhibits and through his testimony. on I I I'm sorry I didn't bring the ordinance with me. In there it says
you're going to show the the structures on where the houses are. Now I just went through this between the engineers in the same application. The engineers sent them letters three times telling them to do this to show the structures and they didn't. But ultimately they did. >> We we we have we we got to keep it to
this application. >> I understand. I understand. Absolutely. So then you're testifying that there is no such ordinance in the township of Jackson. I'm sorry. So you're stating or you're you're sharing with me that there's you as far as you know there's no ordinance
in the town that requires structures within 200 feet of the proposed project to be labeled to be shown on on the map. And if we think about it, why wouldn't if the ordinance is there? >> So So let's we're getting away from questions. Let's direct questions at the
at the applicant. I said they're not currently shown on the plan. We'll be happy to to provide that when we come back. >> I don't Can a waiver be requested for that? If it's an ordinance that says >> yes, it's a submission item. A waiver can be requested from that. So then what
what the ordinance what the ordinance then according to what he's saying the ordinance allows a request to not show information that can help the homeowners. >> Let let me let me kind of set the foundation for this. So under the municipal land use law 200t radius is
kind of the litman's test to make sure that all residents surrounding the property are make sure they're notified they're aware of the application notice has to go out. This seems like a like a kind of a corresponding ordinance to that under the municipal land use law they complied with the 200
foot radius litman's test. So if they're seeking a waiver, you know, they're kind of really the applicant can do that because there's almost no harm, no foul. So what what what you're indicating is that you know that you may be prejudiced
as a result of not seeing the structures on on a site plan. Maybe if it's there or not there. I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but the Litman's the Litman's test for the 200 foot radius is that of notice that and the notice matters and notice is jurisdictional. >> Understood.
>> Right. Not the structures. >> Um, >> it's it's 200. >> All right. All right. All right. We're not we're not going to get into this. Um, >> do you have any more questions for the experts? >> My my my statement to you would be
Let's say the next we have another >> we we have we have another part after >> if you approve it you're running the risk of an appeal because anyone that's listening when you see it it has it in there and that's it I I should have brought um I'll tell you I was sitting at home this is my last thing I'm not I
was sitting at home watching on YouTube and with all due respect chairman Campbell practice what you have you have any more questions frequently do you have any more questions for the applicant >> no I'm just asking her practice what she preaches. I couldn't hear.
>> All done. All done. It's 11:30 at night. We're all We're all done. All done. We're not going to accept any resident or person participating here, insulting the chairwoman. I'm going to make that very clear. The chairwoman won't do it.
She's too much of a lady to do that. But I'm going to say it right here. Do not insult the chair. >> I don't feel I've insulted her. >> All right. >> I was at home trying to listen. You said for the benefit of people at home, walk into the microphone. Please sit down. >> You didn't, man. >> It's It's 11:36 11:36 at night.
>> Um, >> I'm going to I'm I'm going to uh say that this is the last cross exam, then we have to open it up for general. Uh, and we'll do it that way. >> All right. >> I have a question. >> So, please raise your right hand. >> Do you swear or affirm the tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth? >> I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the rest. >> James Reynolds. R E Y N O L Ds 3. Mary Beth. >> Thank you. I have a question for the traffic guy. >> Do you think it would be appropriate or recommended to have some sort of acceleration deceleration lane or a
shoulder? >> No. The the the level of traffic volume on Frank Applegate and the amount of traffic entering and exiting the site does not warrant XL DLS. Okay. So, the low volume roadway. >> Thank you.
Close it. >> I uh make a motion to close the cross-examination portion of this application. Sullivan. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I I like >> I'd like to make a motion to open the
public portion of this application for comments. >> All right. So, we're going to open it and then everybody's going to have anybody who wants to make a general comment is going to have two minutes. We'll put it on the clock and you can make whatever comments you want.
>> Carlos Martins. >> Yep. Do you swear, affirm, tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> Yes, sir. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Carlos Martins, M A R T I N 406 Cobain uh Jackson. Um, yeah. My my only thought was actually a lot of people have left
already. Do you really have to have the com the public comment today? >> That was it. >> Bannon 22 Aborn Court. >> All right. You swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing about the truth. >> Yes, I do. >> All right. >> Since Miss Campbell, you requested to
have a sidewalk out front, which I'm granted. Thank you. Can we also stripe that sidewalk on the on the street so there's no parking on Frank Applegate too? >> Okay. >> It's a county road. We have no
jurisdiction there. >> But you know as a as the public they can go correct me if I'm wrong to the c to the council to ask them to contact the county. Correct. I got I got Can I say something?
>> Mr. Alfairy, would your applicant be willing to ask the county if you could put a yellow stripe on that curb? >> We we a no parking. You want some kind of no parking? We have no issue asking the county. >> All right. You swear, affirm, to tell
the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> Yes. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. Carallo G A L O 409 Frank Applegate Road. >> Okay. >> Um, some of you may know, some of you may not. There was
>> Oh, yep. Just microphone. >> There was an online petition that was made in conjunction to what this project is. I don't know if you're aware of it. There are over a thousand signatures. >> Ma'am, we we can't we can't submit an online petition into the record. It's
the same issue that I >> It's a statement. >> I I'm Enough. Enough. Enough. All done. >> All done. I'm explaining hearsay evidence for the record. Stop. You're disturbing. You're disturbing the record. You're disturbing the record.
Stop. So, so a a public petition is something that you submit to the township council. So, that's not something that you could submit to a planning board because it's technically hearsay evidence. So, if you have any general comments about the application, now will be the time. But you can't make
a general comment about something that's not submitted into the record. >> Okay. Well, my comment is there's obviously a lot of people in this township that are not happy with this project and are not willing to want it to go forward. It is going to
impact us. It is going to impact our water. It is going to impact our sewage, our septics, our land, our wildlife, our way of life. Me personally, I feel
you are are trying to go against your own town people. You have been very defensive since the start of this entire thing. And we've been sitting through this whole thing cordially concerning what is going on around our
home. You will go home to your home and nothing will be different. We are here voicing our our opinions because our homes are about to be changed by this. you should be a little bit more respectful to your own town's people to
listen and not be as defensive in this discussion. With that being said, don't you think a project of this caliber should be in a commercial zone?
This is a residential treelined block. This will change the entire look and ambiance of what Frank Applegate is. Is anybody taking that into consideration?
There are other areas that this could go into. It doesn't need to be on a residential street amongst our homes. We pay a lot of taxes there. We pay a lot of money for our homes.
If this is there, it's changing the entire atmosphere, including our morale as neighbors and in a community. That's first of all. Secondly, with all due respect,
>> time is up, ma'am. >> Well, you took 30 seconds of my time. Sorry. >> We gave we gave it back to you. We gave it back to you. >> You coraled our children into one school. >> Ma'am, need you to sit down. Time is up. them into one yeshiva. >> Please raise your right.
>> We're going to direct that the uh members of the board disregard the member the member of the public's comment regarding uh coraling of public and non-public students into schools. >> Please raise your right hand. You swear from tell the truth the whole truth
nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please state name and spell your last record. >> Can you hear me? Okay. Mhm. >> Okay. Frank Simonelli um at 22 Camelot Terrace in Jackson. >> Thank you. >> Um I got to tell you, man, listening to
this whole proceedings, you know, as a panel, you know, this is hostile, man. You you you can't approve this. This is you you have a lot of people here living on Frank Applegate. The last people that were to talking up here, five or six
people were all Frank Applegate. Frank Applegate, right? Do you people care? Do you people care? Mr. Breie, thank you very much for your support from listening to everything tonight. You were very supportive to try to help this situation.
But some of the other comments I have, you talked about a chain link fence, a gated fence with these kids. They're going to jump over the fence. They're not going to be contained in the building there. That's not going to happen. give me a break.
And then another thing that was really amazing for me during this whole situation is any kind of questions you you you came up with which were very good questions again, Mr. Mr. Brezie and everything I kept hearing from these people was yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Right. Are they really going to do the what they're claiming they're going to do? Uh, really? And who and who's going to check on that? Who's going to check on that? >> I can't hear you. >> Code enforcement is responsible for enforcing any actions in the township.
>> And as far as it being moving on, they got to go to resolution compliance. If you do not get it, they cannot move on. >> That's why I asked those questions. >> Okay. No, I appreciate it. One, one more thing I have. Thanks for hearing me out. You talked about a security system
there, right? Correct. >> Who's monitoring that? Who's keeping an eye on that? Who's going to monitor these guys jumping over the fences and getting >> already did cross examination? >> Please give a comment.
>> Please raise your right hand. You swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I affirm. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record this precolon court in Jackson. >> Here's my public statement. The ordinance in Jackson Township, New
Jersey, that requires an applicant to show all buildings and structures within 200 feet of a proposed application is located in chapter 244 land use and development regulations. Specifically within article 4, Roman numeral 4 development application procedures or a
similar procedural section of the municipal code. The precise section is paragraph 244-28 minor site plan subsection G12. This requires the plans to show all existing structures on the site and within 200 ft including the use thereof indicating
those to be destroyed or removed and those to remain 244-30. Major site plans preliminary approval. A similar requirement exists for major site plans mentioning paving of rights of way with streets and within 200 feet of the site and requiring all structures within 200
feet for comprehensive review. This requirement ensures the planning or zoning board can adequately assess the impact of a proposed development on neighboring properties in the surrounding area as part of the application completeness review process. Thank you.
Teresa Rivera, 439 Frank Applegate Road, Jack. >> Swear they tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I swear. >> All right. >> This is a 25 acre parcel. This is a 50,000 square foot building. It can only be built on 5.6 acres. That is the only
property on here that can be built on. The rest is not buildable. Our homes are average 2,000 square feet. You are now taking 25 of our homes and putting it on 5 and a half acres. We all have minimally 1.1 acres. Again, this is now
being put on five and a half acres. We have four people averaging per household. Now, you're putting over 200 people again on five acres. This does not fit in with our neighborhood. It does not fit in with our way of life. Please keep this under consideration.
You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> Thank you. >> All right. Please state your name. Spell your last for the record. >> Holly Reynolds. R E Y N O L Ds. Re Mary Beth. This is not about opposing education or religion use. It's about responsible land use, environmental protection, and
compliance with both state and township standards. the very responsibilities entrusted to this board. A 50,000 square foot institutional structure is incompatible with the surrounding residential zoning and existing neighborhood pattern. Jackson's
master plan emphasizes preserving lowdensity residential character and protecting environmentally sensitive areas, particularly those adjacent to wetlands, aquifers, and habitat corridors. The scale and intensity of this project combined with traffic, lighting, parking demand, and impervious
coverage would permanently alter the neighborhood's character and erode the rural balance Jackson Township has worked to maintain. The application presents significant environmental, regulatory, and planning deficiencies. It fails to comply with New New Jersey D and soil erosion control standards. It
threatens C1 protected waterways and adjacent wetlands. It encroaches a rank three endangered species habitat in an S2 and Pearl natural heritage area and conflicts with the Ocean County Century Plan and Jackson's Township master plan goals for environmental preservation and
compatible development. For these reasons, I respectfully respectfully urge the the board to deny this application in order to protect Jackson's natural resources, uphold environmental regulations, and preserve the health, safety, and character of our community.
Do >> you swear or affirm the tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. State your name last for the record. >> Uh Adam Heidi, I'll make this quick. Uh so my concerns are just all environmental. Uh particularly the future. Uh let's just say this does get approved. And I want to make a comment.
It would be great if our board would stop speaking about applicants plans in the future as if they were already approved. Nothing will get approved. It's all contingent on different permits and things like that. Um, but what I do want to say is, um, approving an
application like this, um, within proximity to such critical, uh, ecological resources kind of invites future developers to just tell Jackson, "We don't give a about you." Um, an approval here invites more attorneys, more engineers, more developers to find
loopholes to build near our water sources. And when you say yes here, legally you're obligated to say yes to the next person. So I really encourage the board um to think wisely. Go back to all the applications. 3 hours they talked about an LOI that they never
actually had. It's not valid. So please be thorough when you're vetting out all of these applications. Furthermore, I want to shout out Mr. Breie and the chair uh person for the environmental commission for having some integrity. Um I don't know if you two have lived in town. Um, I don't know if
everyone uh on the board lives in town or if they're in any gated communities or anything and they don't experience some of these problems going on, but I appreciate you, Mr. Breie, uh, and Mr. Tremor for having integrity for the residents of our town. Um, quite frankly, a lot of people moved here um
to Ocean County for the resources, for the forest, the wildlife, uh, these protected infrastructures. So, um, an approval here pretty much says you guys don't give a about um, the residents uh, or the environment, respectfully. I apologize for the profanity. >> Please raise your right hand. Do you
swear, affirm, tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do. Right. Please state your name and spell your last on the record. >> Brian Pinkham. P I N K H A M1 CN Court. Uh just a couple of questions. Um this this is a good indication of this blind
corner here. Now this is the entrance right here. I know that they had mentioned that they were going to have to pull back a sizable I thought they said 35 ft to to clear this line of sight because this is a really good
indication at just how blind this corner is. I live right off of this road. My house is right about here. And um my concern is also not only for if you're going to be pulling anything from here because you indicated this was wetlands. I don't even know if you're
allowed to clear um trees from wetlands. I have no idea. I don't that's for somebody else to speak about. But I'm also concerned about the per Nobody's talking about the person who lives on this property here. This poor soul, right? this poor soul is
surrounded by this whole property and how much of her property is going to be pulled through eminent domain to clear this line of sight for this blind corner. That's a concern of mine as well. Uh also two other things. Um, one
is I don't know if we can get a promise from the developer that if they do get granted uh municipal municipal utility water way from Jackson Mills, if they're able to tap into there if they can
actually will do that instead because my fear is it's a hell of a lot cheaper to drill a well, a big old commercial well here than it is to go all the way up here to Jackson Mills and tie into their waterway. And
my concern is me, my family, my wife, my kids, and my grandkids all drink from the my well that's sitting right about here. That's about it. Thank you, Mr. Al Ferry. Mr. Alair, running that
water line that far is also the way to hook up the fire suppression system. Correct. That was the main reason for that. >> Thank you. >> Seeing no one else come forward, I move to close the public portion of this
application. >> Second. >> I >> uh very thank you. It's very late hour just very briefly. Variancefree application. There's comments about compatibility, but the compatibility has already been determined by the governing body by allowing and providing for this
use in this area. U we're disturbing less than 25% of the property. We've stipulated many of the conditions which we would agree would be incorporated into the resolution of approval of the board would act favorably. There are still many outside agency approvals that we've discussed at noauseium that we
need to obtain. We've agreed to provide the sidewalk. The traffic testimony was such that the driveway operates safely and efficiently, which is all we need to provide under the uh law and it is under the county jurisdiction. Um so and
finally, we agreed to address all the technical comments contained within the board professional reports and for those reasons, we'd request that the board grant the approval subject to all the stipulations that we've discussed on the record. Thank you. anything from you. >> All right, just to address the board and
just to reiterate uh Mr. Alfiri summation, uh it is a permitted use in the zone. There are no variances. Uh there's four very minimal waiverss and we've loaded them up with over 20 conditions. Um so at that point, I will leave it up to the board to vote on
preliminary and final. Madam Chair, >> yes. >> I'd like to make a motion. It's been a long night and one of the hardest thing for a board like this to do is to sit down and peel apart the facts that we have the right to vote on and all the
data involved. We put a lot of stipulations on them, a lot of questions and stuff they must do is stipulated. If they don't do, they cannot move forward. There's double checks and balances. Ocean County Board of Health DP. As far
as the 200 houses not on the screen, they did notify all 200 houses and that's how it's normally done in the most most cases. We we put so many stipulations on them that they have their work cut out to do. This is the first step. And uh with that said and
the professional testimony you have the facts and data that we have the right to vote on, I make a motion to approve. >> Take a second, please. I'll second that motion based on >> pass with all the conditions that are stipulated to
>> I'll second that motion based on everything that Mr. Breie said with all the stipulations and all the testimony we've heard tonight. Second Heler >> roll please. >> Mr. Brazie >> yes >> Mr. Heler. >> Yes. >> Mr. Rogers.
>> Yes. >> Mr. Tremor. >> No. Miss Rose, >> yes. >> Mr. Weart, >> yes. >> Mr. Sullivan, >> I just want to say before I vote that um
you have to follow the law whether you like it or not. You have to follow the agreements and you have to follow the zoning. And this application is a conforming application with no variances.
And with that, I vote yes. >> Dr. Campbell, >> I'd also like to make a statement about uh caring. I've lived in this town for over 50 years in four different homes. I understand your discomfort.
I don't blame you for being discomfortable. I don't blame you for being upset. I understand. However, we have obligations to follow the laws and the law is very clear handed down from
courts and judges that we have no option with the variance free in this zone which is appropriate zone. So I vote yes. >> Thank you everyone. Thanks for staying so late. Appreciate it. Happy Thanksgiving.
>> You too. Motion to close. >> Make a motion to close the meeting. Sullivan. >> Second. >> Second. >> I