we're going to call this meeting to order please stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all
this meeting complies with the open public meetings act notice of this meeting thank you thank you roll call please here here Miss Cypriana we have a resolution this evening correct yes this is memorializing resolution for the
appointment of Kathleen Biba as reporting secretary which was voted on at the last meeting um and as I was just saying to the chairperson in the future we should be doing these resolutions just at the same time as the appointments the appointment
resolutions are not like the um the the approvals or denials where we do it and then do a moralizing resolution so we shouldn't be having to take two bites at this particular apple but nonetheless we do have that resolution today um and it's appointing Kathy Gibbs as a
reporting secretary through June 30th 2025 the reason for that is this is an appointment that is usually made at reorg um in uh July and um so it'll get us
back on on that all right so we need a motion to second please motion roll call excuse me roll call please yes yes yes
yes sorry and we have a set of minutes this evening from the March 19th 2025 meeting i need a motion and a second to approve the minutes please motion roll call please
yes Miss Bradley and yes there she is i do not have a voucher catherine do you have a voucher okay i have a voucher from the township of Jackson for the recording secretary for this evening for the zoning board of adjustment uh in the amount of $175 we
need a motion and a second to pay the voucher please motion second roll call please mr brezie yes mr heyman yes dr hoffstein yes mr hudach yes miss Rosal yes mr martins yes mr such yes
miss Bradley yes and Miss Cyprien do we have any announcements for this evening yes uh number two on the agenda Ellensson
uh is being moved to the June 18 no further notice all right so if anybody is here for that application this evening for 8 Florence Court they're going to be heard in
June okay and we need to surround our professionals i do i do mark Romeire board engineer ernie Peters board planner gina Tubelo assistant zoning officer no executive session for this evening uh
I don't believe we have any matters for discussion uh but we do have an administrative approval county offices LLC Megan's Associates Site Plan 644-1-B565601 excuse me and 61.01 administrative approval for
landscape plantings good evening everybody adam Feffer attorney on behalf of the applicant uh as the board may recall we were back here uh a month or so ago six weeks ago um and there were some there were a couple of questions raised um again just
to remind the board we when this application was approved many years ago um for reasons that nobody could really figure out uh the landscaping plan was placed on the neighboring uh association 3 pence um and that's how it was
approved it was submitted um I did go back uh since then i did review the original resolution i went through the minutes of the meeting uh I can't there are no notes in my original file no one really knows why that why that is um I think everyone I believe is in agreement
the better plan is to put the landscaping plan on the applicant's property itself um to that effect uh Mr bordon and his office submitted um a plan um if Anthony could could just pick up I think they were submitted last time
um a what the original submitt was uh back when the when the application was approved uh as well as a proposed plan i believe there also was some confusion at the last meeting both between the applicant the the testimony the owner um as to what was on site versus what's
being proposed um I just want to be very clear what they had already started planting some of those trees that is not all that the applicant is looking to do the applicant is looking to meet what was proposed there is a revised plan that was proposed at the last meeting um
and that I I actually took an opportunity today to drive through it um and obviously that's not what is on the plan obviously should the board vote in favor to approve this plan it's subject to all the other requirements of the the board's the township's engineer inspecting it making sure that it's it's
planted properly uh as well as maintenance um and etc etc so um with that I mean that that's really the time I'm looking to waste the board's time um this evening we are just seeking to amend the original landscaping plan from
three pens um to our site um in conformance with what Mr bordon his office has proposed um if we can we'll just swear in Mr bordon um and then we could answer any questions do you swear the testimony
you truth and nothing but truth i do and could you state your name and certainly uh Ian Bordon professional planner president of professional design services licensed in good standing and practiced for 40 years
Mr board and this board accepts your credentials thank you thank you mr can you recap what I Yeah the board might recall I was part of that original site i did the testimony and my office did the plans for that original site plan uh with Mr
in 2003 uh approved in believe in 2008 and um I don't recall why I do know there was some objectors from 3 Pence but the uh the uh evergreen landscape trees uh were
approved to be located on the 3 Pence property and um to recall my testimony at the last hearing was to place the trees there would require disruption to the sprinkler system of 3 Pencebrook loss of lawn area they'd have to trim back some of the trees along their wood
line because right now they're they're growing over where these trees would be growing so you'd have to create some some light and no air for for these trees to grow and um in my opinion it's more practical or more certainly more befitting compliance
with the township ordinance to plant the uh the buffer on our my client's property as the ordinance requires mr weren't in addition to the points that you just raised wasn't the record or at least the record that we could find uh
bereft of any indication that the other property consented to the border being created thank you Mr cher that's a very good point yes that is correct and and that's actually how we we started down the path to come here because my my
client who is who's building the site who built the site who was not my client when we they bought the project approved um they they called me with a very simple question how do I plant this landscaping and I was my answer was I don't know so I reached out to the
township officials Mr purpo u and and then the board engineer at the time Mr hill and uh we had a conversation it was agreed that the the best approach was to meet with the homeowners so I scheduled a meeting recall in November where I attended with a member of the
association uh management company and I believe a member of the association was there a resident um but there was another person there i'm not exactly sure what her position was that's why I say I believe um and um we talked through all these things about
physically you know there would be who's going to responsible obviously my client would be responsible to plant them and that was fine but who's responsible to maintain them repair of the septic system loss of the lawn all these other uh proximity of the houses to the to the
uh to the units they were if on the approved plan in some areas they're very close to the units to the rear decks um and and it was agreed verbally and certainly it was verbally nothing to take to the bank uh that it would be a good idea to put it on on the subject
property which is at that point is when we started this application this application was filed in I I believe it was November of of last year um and and as Mr feffer says "My client as I testified at the last hearing my client had ordered some of the trees not all
the trees and they had to be planted right once a tree is ordered um it's it's got to go somewhere you can't bring it back to the nursery." So he he uh took the risk frankly and planted them uh on his property where we
proposed them on on our proposed plan but understanding that that that as Mr feffer said that is not all the trees uh at the end of the hearing last time we never I never really had a chance to address this because it was carried but
uh there was some constrnation from the board and and the residents that that there were some photographs that showed openings in the trees and that's simply because the trees aren't planted yet there's there's some trees planted but but they're not filled in in the numbers
that our proposed plan provides so what you're seeing out there right now is an incomplete product what percentage of the trees that you're proposing has been p planted um that's a good that's a great question i wish I had an empirical answer i I'm going to guess uh I'm going
to guess the 60% of the trees are planted certainly not more than that uh the the trees along the side of the property which is on the right side if you go to number three please Anthony yeah that one perfect my
uh thing shows up on the screen the trees down the side here that that's a solid single row of trees but when you get behind the building in this area the trees are very widely scattered and it was this area where where the resident took a picture and and the picture
looking from the unit through here and I agree you you literally could not see any of the trees well that's because they're not planted yet this area is needs to be significantly filled in yet and obviously my client's not going to proceed with more planting unless and
until the board accepts this field change you know otherwise he would be just wasting his money to plant more trees now Mr excuse me can you use your microphone is it your testimony that the proposed plan that's up on the screen um is what
if approved the applicant will will comply with absolutely absolutely any questions for Mr bordon comments dr hoffky yes um originally did the homeowners
association approve the original planting on their property so when you when you say the original planting meaning when it was originally approved Yes so I I went back like I said it's in the resolution and I went back and I reviewed the minutes i think it was from
2008 it talked about that there were that that there were members from the association present at the meeting again I can't tell you nobody knows the reason as to why it was approved with the original plantings on 3 Pence's property i assume that they must have consented but I don't have anything in the record
to say that they do uh that they did do you have any knowledge who was supposed to maintain anything there it was not part of the resolution of approval i mean this makes more sense because this is going to be the applicant's requirement it's on their property um there will be obviously once the
building's done after they're all after performance besides the performance bond there will be a maintenance bond um that I believe also will cover the the landscaping i I will tell you I drove there today already some of the new plantings are dead i mean I can just tell you there's there's probably about I don't know if it's 10 but somewhere
between five and 10 um of these planings they're going to be thrown out they're going to have to be replaced um so just to correct that uh I was there today al as well there's two different types of plantings one of them they're all dead and one of them they're fine so
it's half of them are dead yeah I I saw that as well yeah the plantings were a mixture of Norway spruce and cypress or Cleveland cypress and the Norway spruce so the Christmas tree looking trees are doing wonderfully that's correct the cypress not so good so I just want to
know the density what you're proposing um for it correct meaning what is this what is this reflecting is it reflecting when you first come in on that right side uh they're actually to my eye they looked like they were planted six feet from each other there's about four feet
of space in between and then when you get further to the back it gets a lot more spread out like you said before and then further back it's even probably like 15 feet um what is the proposal that you're proposing is
it that the density of when you come in on that right side yes uh a little bit heavier than that the the density is down the right side is uh basically equivalent to a double staggered row of uh 10 ft on spacing so that places the
trees basically four feet apart uh that's kind of a standard uh screening design that's that's contained in the township ordinance for generation u so generally u not more than 8 ft
apart at any point during the the whole run okay and I'm assuming that they're going to replace those ones that are dying they would have to yes the reason why I said about it's important also with the maintenance bond those are we won't the applicant will not be able to get off their bond if
those are not replaced and the township inspects there's there's a process for all that but like I said I just passed it today those they're dead already i mean they're they're I saw I was there yes okay thank you one other thing I just wanted to point out it wasn't last at the last meeting we discussed um even though it was administrative approval
the board did ask that we get a new list and notice and I just neglected to state that we did get that list and we did send out notices and provided that um to everybody so thank you and the notices were provided by the secretary and I'm sorry Mr bordon i know you were just testifying i just was having a hard time
uh hearing everything you said i thought you said that on the right side of the property the spacing was approximately 4 feet in a staggered row so if you if you place the trees 8 ft apart in two rows and and you stagger the rows okay
and so that's only on the right side but in in the back there's a single row that are uh unfortunately my plan is very small i didn't bring a larger plan uh but I'm going to say the plans in the back are on an 8oot center
which normally what we do they're planted in double are you saying they're planted in double rows because that's not what I saw oh no they're not that's what I'm saying they're not it's not finished yet okay all right no you said they were planted that's why I'm like wait a minute does he mean they're going to be or they are some of the trees
whatever trees they had ordered that were on order before they realized that they had this this concern about where to plant them that initial order they had to plant i think the testimony was that there were 60% approximately 60% of the total trees to be there had been
planted and then there seemed to be agreement that about half of that 60% uh has died i I don't that's hard to guess but I don't think it's 50% basically the cedar the the down the the right side or the
top row of that A a3 was staggered of the spruce and the cyprus and the cyprress died so uh it it's really the one species the the spruces are thriving but again I it would almost be easier if
they hadn't planted anything and we came in with this plan and I'm the reason why because now we're talking about because again we have to comply if the board approves us and your engineer says that he's in agreement and that this meets you know the requirements and the board votes yes we will be doing this forget
if there's one plant or a hundred plants there and if they're dead or not dead we have to comply and we have to otherwise we're not getting off of our bomb so I mean we're trying to get there so I I know we want to talk i did it too i drove there i looked I saw the back almost no plants were there so what we
are showing is what we have to do just want to be clear yeah the plants in the back meaning the the back of the rear parking area on the left side of A3 in this area are I measured them this I was there at 8:30 this morning um and I've been there
obviously multiple times but I wanted to see it right before the meeting to see what the condition was um these trees are basically planted right now with 24 foot spacing which is obviously much wider there's going to be a lot of trees if you blow up here Anthony if you don't mind enlarge you see there's a basically
the trees are intended so that the uh the overhanging branches touch each other that's the idea see how close they are here and what you see out there today is nothing close to that i went to it the office building came out beautiful i mean it's really a very
nice building you know it's set back very far from the street um but we're we're not going to now skimp at at the end no any other questions for Mr bordon mr omire yeah just a couple comments u just to clarify the board may grant
administrative approval for changes to any previously approved site plan provided that they uh do not affect the purpose and intent of the original approval so in my opinion they are they're shifting a row of of landscaping shifting it onto their property and
where a single row was proposed now There's even a greater density with the staggering along the sideyard in total there are less trees however that's because there's a shorter distance that they have to cover um and then regards
to this the size the diameter of the trees and the height of the trees at the time of planting the ordinance does specify uh the trees at the foundation uh must have a diameter of 1 and a half to 3 in
and five to six feet in height so the idea is they don't have to they're not planting fully grown trees they're younger trees that will grow widen and and get taller so just wanted to provide that additional information
thank you any additional questions Mr bordon mr feffford do you have anything else that is I I know the neighbors do have council here so if you want opportunity to open Yeah so there was uh an objector
um I don't know if there are any questions for Mr bordon or if you just wanted to wait and put on your own uh case okay so you say so Mr feer anything at all that's our presentation i mean we'll address if any other comments that come
out uh that come up we will happily address okay you can come forward excuse me hello everyone bonnie Wright of Hanland and right thank you for having me back um can you
go go back further who's controlling this thing anthony so just a mind the board i'm here on behalf of Rodrigo and Megan Anderson they actually my clients live right here and I will say that Mr feffford was
courteous enough to give me a call earlier in the week and try to get a a a pulse of where we're at with this so I thank you for that Adam he also did mention that we just ironically took pictures of the most sparsely populated area and now that I see this I understand why he's saying that but it
just so happens that that's where my clients live in the most buffsy populated area so there was no intent to like seek out that that's where they live so and I also want to point out that there are other buildings here so even though this
depicts that maybe it's only my client's building it's not there's others here so my client's position and I I will call my client up because I I submitted some photographs that I would just like to take a the board to take a look at is
a actually that's probably not their position but I as a lawyer understand why putting these plantings on the association property is a strange thing to have approved and I think it's it's
untenable so we understand and we're not opposing the applicant moving all of these plantings to their property i think that makes better sense however I do think it's important that the board see the photographs that we we had presented some at the last meeting we
are going to present some more and ultimately we are going to defer to the board to make their decision but the applicant has made an application to amend their plan and we are asking the board to consider imposing a requirement
that more plantings are planted because when you see these photographs you're going to see what it used to look like and what it looks like now and quite frankly if any of you were living in this condition I think that you would feel the same way but again ultimately my client is going to defer to the
decision of the board but their request is that the board impose upon the applicant an obligation to plant more than the what is depicted on the plan that they have currently presented so I'm going to ask that the photographs that I submitted be brought
up okay and I am going to uh call up Mr rodrigo Anderson again megan Anderson was here with me last time she is away and so her husband is here with me today if you could just give him the microphone please and I'm sorry he'll have to be sworn
sir could you raise your right hand please do you swear that the testimony you will give before this board will be the truth and nothing but the truth and please state your name uh and address for the record rodrigo Anderson Nine Forge Court is that better yes okay it's
Rodrigo Anderson 9 Forge Court mr anderson I'm showing you what I have marked as Anderson 001 do you recognize this i do what is it that we're looking at here my Mr anderson did you take this photograph
either me or my wife did but yes and you do recognize the contents of the photograph absolutely if you could could you estimate when this photograph was taken estimate like I I would say maybe couple years
ago five years possibly and what exactly are we seeing in this photograph that is my backyard okay and specifically that's your back fence yep and beyond that that's all of the trees that used to be there correct okay can we go to the next
one i've got about 30 pictures what's the shortest we need microphones yeah we can't hear the fence is the area that and I think that one of the board members was asking this question the fence depicts the area
that is owned by my client by the unit owner so beyond the fence is common area and before the fence is the property owner's property does that answer your question Adam or no yes okay okay so again Mr anderson what are we looking at
here once again my backyard and the woods in the back okay and and within the fence area is the property that you own yes and beyond that what are we seeing here used to be the nice woods okay through the chair i just I'm sorry
through the chair yes can I ask a question can I understand something what are you trying to accomplish here i think that'll be self-evident when we get through the rest of these photographs the applicant clearly stated that they're proposing what is required by the ordinance which will give you a
lot more than whatever is existing now so all you're doing is you're proposing to us pictures showing depicting that they did not plant the proper plantings which they are going to be required to do so what is I haven't actually gotten that far to be honest with you i really
want the board to see what it looks like before and to be fair and with all due respect there was definitely some inconsistent testimony at the last meeting because there was testimony that the plantings were completed and had been installed to the sat to the in accordance with the plan and then that
testimony has been somewhat rolled back and I'm not inclined I'm not here to beat up the applicant i want the board to see these photographs and then the board is free to make whatever decision they want but quite frankly we are allowed to present this and I would ask for the freedom to do that absolutely
i'm just trying to understand the intention of it because right now I'm what what this is this photograph is not depicting what they did plant or didn't plant what it is depicting is what it used to look like and we will get there okay so I just said one other question if you go back this could we just go
back to the photograph Anderson one sure just to the first picture just back one picture i'm just trying to understand that fence though I think your client just indicated is not the property line those trees right be I'm trying to figure out the trees that he's looking at that
we're looking on the top of the picture top of the fence whose property are those on that is the association property okay so but those trees are on the association not on the applicant correct thank you okay excuse me through the chair just
one question was the building the office building constructed at the time these pictures were taken just constructed in the last I'm going to say 24 months so when No so if she said that I believe the testimony was approximately 5 years ago no the building did not exist
building was didn't exist but I but I just want to be clear i don't think those are the trees that had anything to do with my client's property no we are at this particular point we are not attempting to def depict what is currently there we're trying to depict what used to be there i I got it and I'm just trying to figure out if there are
trees on your property the association's property or there are trees on the applicant's property 100% it is definitely the association's property thank you okay can we show the next photo Mr anderson again is this a yet another photo of the same subject matter your
backyard with the trees that are on the association property beyond the fence yes that's my backyard and can if you again if you had to estimate approximately how old is this photograph i would say five five years okay next
mr anderson is that your son in the photograph yes it is that's not the purpose of the photograph again where your son is name is what logan okay and where is he standing in relation to where your property is that
is the common area okay and is it on the side of your home is it in the back it's be behind my my home fence okay and that gun is fake is it not yes it is okay and what is it that is depicted in the rear there the woods i used to be there okay
next i'm sorry i just have to ask so so those woods are they on association property property nothing to do with the the um applicant at this point right correct all right mr anderson did you take this photograph that I did yes can you estimate
approximately when you took this photograph approximately a couple days if not ago okay and is this would you consider the location of this photograph approximately where your son was
standing in the last picture absolutely yeah so all of those trees and greenery is no longer there correct correct okay and if this building would you estimate approximately how far it is from the fence that you do own from my fence of that building uh 100
foot okay we show the next picture excuse me i'm a little confused we So bear with me because I'm probably not going to ask this right mr feffer just asked a question I think that's important that we all think about he he asked you where those trees were in
relation to your client's property and the applicant's property and you said they were in the common area of 3 Pence Brook so I understand what you're showing us okay I get what you're showing us it obviously looks very different the trees are gone but if they're not on the applicant's side how
I'm not sure how that relates to the issue at hand tonight it relates chairperson because I want you to see what it used to look like and when they started clearing for this project and this is a natural occurrence
unfortunately even the buffer that remained effectively was destroyed as a result of the I'm going to object to that there's no correlate that you cannot prove that because the property on the my client's property was cleared that your client's tree your client's
association's trees all died because of the clearing there you don't have any proof to say that you're right i don't have an expert to testify to that i only have photographs to show you what it looked like before construction started no you have a picture from five years ago in what looks like the summer verse a picture from last week so that that's
not really fair to compare m I'm sorry how many more photographs do you have we have several and I'd like to get being five several being 30 again we could just kind of fly through them the fact of that matter is that my client has the opport the right to present this testimony the board should consider it
and it is relevant though the board certainly has the obligation to consider all relevant testimony i thank you i appreciate that so we can go soon go quicker i just want the board to see what it is they're looking at and I just want to address one issue whether this is the association's property or not the
fact of the matter is that where my client resides what it looked like at the time was a factor in their decision- making to purchase this home and ultimately the board can decide whatever they want to decide and that's fair and that is why you're up there and we
appreciate it but I do think the board should see how these applications impact every single person that is residing and is directly impacted by them so I just want to go through them if you want me to have my client authenticate each and every picture to to wait waste the time
I can do that otherwise we can just go through them yeah can I can I can I mad say I I I think it feeds on everything that's being said and relevant right so the fact that what you're showing right now as trees has nothing to do with the
applicant it's not on his property it's it's we haven't gotten that far i get it but when you do get it when you do get to that far right it's still you're going you're going to show his property what's on his property but you haven't shown this before what relates to his
property right if so has nothing to do with the applicant so far okay either way that's what I see maybe I'm wrong i'm misinterpreting you're showing me everything has nothing to do with him how does it not this is what my client none of those trees belong to him he
didn't tear him down he didn't do anything to that right i don't necessarily agree with that position but can we just get through the rest of the photographs i I just want to make sure it's going to be relevant that's my That's my only concern i think it's ultimately Mr you're making the decision
so I I I I all I can do is present this m your earlier point the point you made a minute ago about authentic authentication um my suggestion is and obviously you've heard the the board is go through your
photographs and if there is a desire on the part of the board or Mr fer to have any particular one authenticated then they can ask for that that's fair again I'm not I don't want to waste the board's time i just want to get through it so can we go to the next photograph
please mr anderson is this a photograph from your second floor balcony yes it is and again not for purposes of of authentication but for purposes of the board understanding what we're looking at here approximately how many days did you take this photograph same as the
other ones a couple days okay next could we see the next photograph please thank you okay again Mr anderson is this a photograph you have taken in the most most recent few days correct okay and
through the miscellaneous branches there is that a tree that is on the applicant's property yes to your understanding is that a newly planted tree yes okay next
photograph this and again the board has expressed some position that this is not relevant but in fact what we're seeing here on the top is a picture that you testified was taken approximately five six years ago correct correct and this is the bottom photo same exact view but
what it looks like in the last few days correct but in all fairness you're talking about a completely different season we get the point you're trying to make but you're comparing apples and oranges well it it's not actually true because these these these trees that are depicted here that's what they look like all year round it's not the season
doesn't matter anymore they're dead madam Chair so I have to tell you you know seeing your son in the backyard he's in short pants he's in a short sleeve shirt it's obviously during the summer when the trees are
all their leaves this comparison here you have flowers in the top picture which is obviously during warm weather when the trees are all fully out and and your bottom picture depicts it now when
everything is barren my own backyard I can't my neighbors during the summer but during the winter I can see their house there's no leaves on it i think that's a very fair point mr anderson during August of last year did
your view out your back slider door look exactly like the bottom picture yes next photo please again not trying to show the sun i am trying to show Mr anderson from this perspective where are we looking at is
is if in the behind Miss Logan is that where the parking lot exists today yes and that's what it previously looked like before construction correct okay fair enough next same photograph different time of year correct correct lots of
trees next same photograph same concept next this is Is this your view of that parking lot today yes now this is in fairness a closer up photograph correct correct okay and in the background there
well not the background but in somewhat in the back do we see the trees that the applicant has planted barely are they dep are they providing any type of a buffer between your view and the parking lot negative okay next photograph same concept are you you do
you see one of the trees that the applicant planted uh maybe on the left i'm not sure h Let me just ask how long ago did you take this photograph same as the other ones okay couple days so we can just go ahead flip to the next one you can just go so
we can see what these look like without wasting the board's time this is what they're looking at now this right here Mr anderson again did you take this photo photo just a couple of days ago correct and these are the plantings that to your understanding that the applicant has planted yes you had to guesstimate
how far apart are these these plantings yes uh 15 to 20 ft okay next photo but they have already testified that they'll be filling in more that only 60% are installed at this time i understand but even at 60% this is pretty far apart it also
seems though you have an issue with your own association right not with the applicant like it's interesting we have an issue with the association okay that's the that's the takeaway from this huh no yeah because because that same we we we get it i mean we we get it and we
we we understand there's no point of reference though when you're showing association trees versus the applicants trees the applicant said they're filling in we got it but as far as the association trees that are no longer
there how is that the applicants even care or responsibility unless you're claiming the applicant destroyed the associations trees is that your claim not at all well then I don't understand where we're going where I
mean I just don't get it is that the board which I don't believe were I'm not sure you do oh trust me of Jackson what these these developments or these projects how they impact the residents is something that you should be aware of
ultimately you can vote however you want but you should be seeing exactly how this is impacting the residents and this is not what my client bought it's not what my client bought into it's not what my client saw when they bought and that's it so ultimately you can decide
whatever you want to decide but you should see the photographs that's all we're asking i've seen the property i've toured it i think most of us Oh and it's it's it's if you were residing where my client lives you'd be okay with this okay that's right
i the board is has made the point you've said you have the right to present your case right and so I'd like to finish doing that you have chosen in exercising that right to have 34 photographs i invite you to really move to the ones
that you think are most relevant i I I and I don't think the board could be much clearer i mean the board was pretty clear that they wanted to see how the the applicant's property this picture depicts the applicant's property right so please move through the photographs okay so next I mean
listen if I could hit the button myself I would i I I apologize one of the one of the before views if you I'm sorry any one of the few before five years ago can we just go to one of those and then I'll ask you a question you pretty much have to go all the way
back to the beginning no these are the side view so which view are you looking for just go to anyone where there was green it was nice it was beautiful that's all you saw anthony go to number one please number one is fine okay
so right now those trees there are blocking any view into the applicant's property right and so woods so yes if that still existed whether he planted 20 trees there five trees there you wouldn't care because you couldn't see him
that's the whole point you couldn't see him you couldn't actually you couldn't see him because of those trees that are there that have nothing to do with him that's our point and that's my point that why is this relevant you couldn't see whether he had 20 or five in there because those trees were blocking it but
that's not his the issues with the association there is a border between the association property and the applicants which you couldn't see you couldn't see because all those trees there in all due respect but that's not his problem and that listen that is your
perspective so let us get through the pictures and then if you want to say we don't care about your res you have the right to vote for that i believe you that is a mischaracterization and I have to clear that i'm not entirely sure that is a mischaracter as residents of
Jackson we do care about the residents what we're trying to actually based on the last do not interrupt the chairperson i apologize what we're saying is and I I I I understand what you're trying to show us but what we're all trying to tell you in a very nice
way part of your problem is indeed with the association their trees are dead most of us I can't speak for everyone so I know a number of us at least four of us visited the property took pictures have videos the tra the uh trees on the
applicant side already testified and agreed to i had notes that I was going to ask you and put you on the spot you admitted they're dead you admitted that you're going to be putting in more and only about 60% are in now that being said let me be clear that is a code enforcement issue should we approve it
that would be a code enforcement issue that they have to meet everything in that resolution if we go ahead and approve this that they have to be a certain height they have to be a certain number X but like I'm going to speak what most of them are all thinking well a lot of your problems with your association that stuff is dead my
husband is a landscaper and went on the ride with me i said to him I went by myself before i need you to come look at something he goes where does where's the property line because it looks like the homeowners association that that three pence trees are dead so part of your problem you're showing us these
beautiful trees five years ago but they don't exist anymore hence the reason unfortunately Mr anderson you now see the building i I I think it's ironic that the board can articulate that argument so well and not tie in why all
of the trees are dead if you want I'm sorry exactly right you are not sworn you're an attorney you if if you are going to bring an expert to testify as to the reason the association trees are
dead that is your right to do that but that is not testimony that is currently before this board fair enough can we just We're close can we get through the rest sure what picture would you like to go back to well we're at 20 so you can just go to the next one i apologize for bringing this back you made a great
point and Mr anderson is this a photograph of a dead tree on the applicant's property that is right is it offering any buffering between your property and this giant building nope no okay next is that another picture of a dead tree
mhm okay next is this a a photograph of the plantings and depicting exactly how far the plantings on the applicant's property are from each other yes okay next again is this a photograph of what you see when you look at your sliding
door yep okay next again I think this is a duplicate no need again another dead tree on the applicant's property can we go back to that one again does this No too
far if you had to guess between how far the distance between these trees are what would you get hazard a guess 15 to 20 feet okay next what are we showing here additional trees planted by the applicant that one in the distance seems to be
dead but the applicant has testified they're going to replace all them so that's okay next okay you can keep going i think these are all basically the same thing and again this is this showing the side and
when you moved in did it look like that nope were all of those trees dead nope okay I think that's it so board members I appreciate you hearing from us i'm somewhat disappointed in terms of
your lack or apparent lack of concern for the resident that is showing up i I'm speaking you can you can you can respond i'm not trying to insult you i'm not going to listen to that i have a question for Mr anderson maybe he
represents himself better he's represented by council but he can answer your question homeowners association to replace the trees i didn't hear a word you said i'm sorry did you have you asked your homeowners association to replace the trees that died have I No
have you asked them have I no why not it's their trees that are dead cuz I'm too busy looking at this building behind my house well if they replaced the trees then you would look at wouldn't see the building in all due respect if some of those had been replaced you wouldn't be seeing that building as clearly as you
do right now madam Chair that's not true mr breie I have to go back to the applicant for a second okay over the years has there been any complaints from home association that you've killed their trees or hurt their trees or your your actions damaged their trees has there any expert testimony to your
movement damaging those trees none to my knowledge we've had enough testimony they belong to the homeowners association and they have not complained to you either miss Wright if you'd like to complete your comments preferably without maligning the uh board's intent i am
never intended to malign the board so I apologize if that was the perception the fact of the matter is that the applicant built the project got approval and is now before this board looking for modification we are simply asking that the board
require the applicant to put more substantial buffering i understand they have a plan i understand that plan looks like it's going to be a lot of trees but that's exactly what the last plan looked like they have installed some trees they are 10 12 15 feet feet apart it is not
it is not offering any buffering for my client at all again ultimately we respect the board we appreciate what you do we appreciate that we're here i just think that you should give a little bit more consideration to how the residents are perceiving this and that's exactly what the photographs were depicted so we
do very much thank you for your time thank you Mr feffford do you have any questions of the witness uh no questions thank you just real quick summation um again I believe the plan that's the amended plan that's proposed um is pretty much in
line with what was approved uh back in 2008 or so it's just a little bit inside it's on our property we're going to comply with everything that's there if the board engineer or or the board members have additional comments or like to see something different again we believe we're in compliance with what
with what would be required if we were here today uh but again we're we're just I asked as I indicated before ignore what was planted a few months ago that's not complete we are asking for this plan
to be approved if this plan is approved we will plant this plan and we will not be able to get off our bonds until that is done and it's inspected and approved any additional questions before I open it to the public just one board you
agree to work with their honestly I'm not sure what that means um I mean we have a proposed landscape plan um really again we we met with the board association representative and this plan
is and that was verbal i understand that but what we have proposed here was consistent with with the site visit and I should note that the site visit was also attended by the township engineer representative of TNM Associates was there as well november the same as the
residents so what you're saying is that you're unwilling to add additional trees i I I I believe we we intended with this plan if you want me to add additional trees I need to remove
more trees to plant trees we we limited the clearing to the limited to the least extent possible in developing the site so if if you go back and look at those pictures you can see in that picture up on the screen now 34 the the distance
between the sidewalk there and the edge of the trees is is not very large and that that that's a spruce tree you see in the background is right up against the tree line so to add more trees and that's going to be filled in again as we've said multiple times to add more
trees I'd have to create space to plant more trees i measured them today uh the average is 6 feet tall and when was that planted they were planted in u November november of last of
2024 as as the board engineer said the the requirement of the uh evergreen screen plantings in Jackson is between a height of five and six feet so I I found in my inspection and I am a forester uh that that those uh Norway spruces did
meet the uh the standard the cypresses the dead ones uh were a little bit short honestly but they're mostly dead so it doesn't matter i intend to talk to my client about that to make sure that I I think we might come up with an alternate uh
species with them i'll discuss that with the board engineer and the board the township forester i'm asking you to you know that's what we're doing Mr hudach that's what we do in every project we're always looking to improve it but to but to say could you
just plant more trees there's no room to plant i have filled up this area with trees if I plant them if I plant the Understand this and this is just a general statement i'm sure the board members all are aware of this and and you can't just say plant the trees closer together because what happens
when you plant evergreen trees closer together is they self-p prune right you we've all been where they where they're I can point to screening strips that I planted when I was the township forester 35 years ago of this town and
and Tom's River that that now the trees might be 30 feet tall it makes me feel old when I see that but the bottom 10 or 15 feet has no branches because they were planted too close together and they self prune and the drought that we've
had and and I believe that's what in my opinion that's why the cypress trees have died because recall we had no rainfall from September through December none and they were planted at the tail end of that drought period and the cypresses have
shallow roots that are more prone to drought which is why again I'd like to look at an alternate better speed the Norway spruce are doing fantastic as evidenced in that picture you've taken a little different this is the plan this is what
we're doing and that's that and now well I think we're always I think I I understand thank you i'm just saying that we need to to simply add more trees we'd have to remove more trees to improve what we've done we're always looking to do that we're always willing to accept
suggestions as well no additional oh no sorry I have one i don't um So last time one of the issues was the size right and you had mentioned hey six feet that's what we were asked to do you had shown a nice picture where the trees were a little bigger right there was more
buffer because you know so my question is I don't know if you remember that i didn't I didn't show any pictures not not a P it was like a drawing or something anyway how long from your experience how long would it take that spruce six foot to grow to something
that's a little more puffed out larger is it 5 years 10 years 30 years how long before it becomes something the the the thicker the tree the slower it'll grow vertically um a Leland cypress tree for example
will grow a couple feet a year but as you can tell from those pictures they're very compact in size and they don't have quite the same buffer so as many things in life there's a trade-off right u the Norway spruce which are very robust in
in in in bulk in breadth uh grow a little more slowly i would say Norway spruce will grow about six inches a year vertically thank you obviously the reason I'm asking and and and I don't think it is your responsibility for that is how long would it take for those to
grow so it looks something like the before pictures that were shown oh yeah that would take although those that would take the 30 years but I think the the point is it's not your responsibility no I understand but I think I understand the point of the buffer and the point of the buffer is not to hide the building uh that's where
architecture comes in uh that's where uh the design of the building comes in um what it's intended to buffer is the activity of the building which is the cars and the people right and and they're six feet or less unless you're
me a little more thank you i would agree with that statement to the buffer is intended to limit the noise the lighting any kind of activity more on the ground level and soften the view of the building any addition there's one question and
not really related uh specifically to the buffering but as I left the site I noticed that I had a very hard time uh pulling out that there was a big uh I don't know about 8 foot by 4 foot sign like right at the roadway could you
elaborate or I I don't believe in the resolution there's any kind of approvals i I had the same thing when I left this i know exactly what you're talking about could we get rid of that that's a temporary sign they're they're it's temporarily not safe i I can advise my point point well received i will I will
advise my client thank you given that Mr feffer has given this summation there's no additional questions from members of the board i'm going to open it to the public anyone wishing to come forward and make a statement about the testimony they've heard this evening regarding this
application you can come forward ma'am um I'm sorry ma'am can I ask you to It's part of the process raise your right hand do you swear that the testimony you'll be given before the board will be the truth and nothing but the truth uh I do and will you say your name for the record my name is Cindy Strong i live
Strong excuse me i'm not being rude could you just pull the microphone down thank you also this first time ever speaking in a meeting like this I'm very nervous uh Cindy Strong s R O N G um I owned the townhouse at 45 Shilling Way in three Pencebrook and I bought my
townhouse in April of 1992 so it's 33 years when I bought my townhouse there was a fully wooded area behind my house and you I don't know how you can get that picture back up but the very first
one sure but any But can I can I put a video into evidence can somebody put my video up i took I took a video two days ago March 31st 2025 so I was wonder can can you put that i I can't answer if it's uh
technically possible how long is the video oh it's short it's short and And I'm no camera woman so it's very um I can I don't I don't know anthony is that something you could do can your IT
person do that excuse it question for the chair for the attorney doesn't that need to be submitted 10 days in advance yeah know it's it's 55 seconds and if you could just describe us what I what I
did is I went over to the new building and I took a video from the parking lot of the new building so you could see the backs of our town houses and if the Andersons live on Forge Court I terrible
because they have the worst part of what happened see this gentleman over here said something about the trees are six feet tall i'm 5'2 and none of those trees are as tall as me and every other tree
planted is either dead or dying so you're never going to create what was there before there was beautiful woods there and from the pictures it may look to you like everything's dead but there's a little
bit of green coming out on the trees so if the trees are dead how do we know they're not dead because the rest of the forest was taken down and it's very wet back there it's wet on the grass behind my house so how how do we know that the builder
pulling down all these trees and not replanting trees isn't causing so the board the board this board does not have testimony either way from an expert as to why if the HOA believes that that is their cause then that would be a
separate thing that they could pursue however they saw fit but that that is there is no testimony on the causation of the HOA trees dying before this board only speculation so So I would have had to pay somebody to come
and look at that and tell us i don't I don't know how this works in order for the board to conclude that this applicant's uh work and the trees that they put on there and their site clearing had killed
the HOA's trees you would need an expert to put that testimony out it's too bad because you can't put my video up because this man said that there was no and I'm sorry I missed the very beginning beginning of the meeting so I don't your name your status or what you
are lawyer whatever um but if you could see my video you would see this plenty of room to plant trees on the building side i mean you could the association could plant trees on the three pin side but we would lose a lot of our grass
it's not that much you know non-wooded area because when we moved there everything was was wooded behind us so there's only a little bit of grass back there if you want to take away our grass and tell us to plant trees but I don't understand why the builder doesn't have to replant the trees the the build the
builder has to plant the trees on their plan assuming it's approved mr bordon what is the total number of those trees honestly I I don't know but you basically agreed with our request where we're were proposing to plant the trees on our property but you said 60% of the trees were
planted so even if you replant the dead trees what we were looking at is less than 50% it's up there so even if you planted a few more trees it's still not going to
block out that building and at night we see the lights from that building and the parking lot is very bright the light shines into our bedroom windows um because we lost our woods so I don't I don't understand like in how
Jackson builders are allowed to take down so much of the woods and not replant i I don't really understand is there another uh point that you'd like to make ma'am no I just wish you could look at my video but thank you thank you thank you for listening
just real quick I I don't know i have to do it just in response Anthony if you just go to the first exhibit we brought up uh the aerial map which shows the building up i just want to point out the applicant uh No the the Yeah the aerial
oh yeah there you go it's like the builder only cleared I want say 50% of the property the other trees didn't die those trees have been along they've been there the whole time so to say that our clearing is what caused killing trees I don't think that's really fair second of all I want to point out the reason why
if anyone's again I don't think anybody the board members were here when this application was approved there are wetlands uh uh this property is encumbered by wetlands so to say the grass is wet yeah there are wetlands in the area that's why the property is so far set back and is kind of you know it meanders all the way to the right corner
so there's a lot of factors that went into this um when it was approved i honestly we've seen pictures from five years ago and we've seen pictures from last week i would love out of just human curiosity to see pictures two years ago
right when you started building what did it the whole operation i mean to see because I mean these people are claiming which seems unrealistic but it seems that you guys are claiming that the applicant killed your
trees on the association so there's honestly there's just no proof of that we agree is there anyone else wishing to come forward regarding this application seeing no one else come forward we're
going to close public session board it's up for us to it is up to us for discussion excuse me yeah and just to clarify and and we've had a lot of uh discussion about this and a lot of testimony it is simply
an application for an administrative approval to change the plan um the existing plan for reasons that seem lost and missed of time um had the uh buffer being planted on property
that is not owned by the applicant so that is not a feasible way to proceed in the absence of written proof that the neighboring property the three pets property agreed to
that that is not a viable plan to the plan does need to change there's been a plan proposed and you've heard the testimony um Mr bever is correct that um
in order to this is a bonded project in order to get out of the bonds the project would have to be done correctly in accordance with any proposed plan and as the chairperson said if in the future
the trees were to die that would be a matter for code enforcement so I just wanted to frame that uh for you it's it's been a lot of testimony but it's a fairly simple uh application thank you Mr breie no I'm just ready to make a
motion oh make a motion if somebody wants to discuss go right ahead yeah I'd like to make a motion uh based on the uh objectives views and pointing out helping me understand that the trees that were apparently lost that person's lost their view their pretty trees
belonged on their property with the homeowners association tree based on the homeless ocean homeowners assoc association not coming forward all these years with a complaint that their work was damaging their trees and the new
landscape plan meeting the township requirements and they're having to meet with to uh complete it and they you know code enforcement so forth i make a motion to approve second we have a motion and a second any
comments questions issues discussion okay i'm just being giving everybody a chance that's all all right seeing that there's no other comments we have a motion to second on the floor roll call please um Mr
mr sut won't vote mr brezie yes mr heyman yes dr hoffstein yes mr huda yes mr rosal yes mr martins yes miss Bradley yes thank you
yes we are we're going to take a five minute break good evening Madam Chair members of the board for the record John Jackson JJ Law Firm on behalf of Howlingwood's Farm i'm here this evening with many of our
supporters you'll recall uh last time Jillian McClear from my office was here and uh she started the application um uh I was disappointed in Jillian she wouldn't come out tonight because she's due on April 11th and yesterday was her
last day at work so I you're stuck with a downgrade having me tonight so I apologize for that so um we're we're here this evening and uh we have some of our uh supporters um we we're going to just do a uh quick review with Colleen
Case who's seated to my left um she's going to give a very brief overview of what her testimony was last time then we're going to have Mr bill Stevens he is the engineer and planner uh he is going to respond to your professionals letters uh with the professional
testimony um I I have no doubt that the board uh recalls from last time um we are a wolf dog farm uh we're essentially an animal rescue we need a devariance being in the zone that we're in this is a use that has evolved as a labor of
love over the last 20 years we believe that this is a great community resource and asset and we're hopeful that the board will view it that way and give us a an approval uh so with your permission if I may remind Miss Casease that she's still under oath unless you want to
readminister the oath if satisfaction so um can you please uh call me just take over of course howingwood's farm has been educating the public on wolves and wolf dogs while dispelling the harsh myths about them for over 10 years we have
also been a safe haven for rescued and unwanted wolf dogs for just as long we have saved countless wolf dogs that were on the verge of being put down just because they are part wolf and provided every dog with vet care proper diet and socialization the farm is only one of 13
rescues for these animals in the country and gives them a second chance at life while most wolf dogs aren't so lucky due to shelters not being equipped to properly house them majority of our animals are ambassadors for their wild counterparts and make good impressions
on the on the younger and older generation about wolves over the years we have hosted the following events such as military appreciation day where veterans and active duty members can bring their families free of charge to come meet our wolf dogs and learn about
them we have also provided off-site educational programs for schools libraries and senior homes we have given tours to special needs children adults uh where they get to pet and learn about our animals we have given tours to young
adults that are enrolled in substance abuse rehabilitation programs we have had countless successful adoptions through our rescue program i have seen some of our guests be brought to tears from hearing their howls we have had guests come from as far as Australia to
come meet our animals we are also currently rated higher than Six Flags Great Adventure through Trip Adviser um Hollywood's farm offers a unique experience to the state of New Jersey to get to know one of the most misunderstood animals on the planet
through an educational and interactive experience use the microphone if that's okay um can we please go to page six of our PowerPoint presentation so Colleen uh the reason why I stopped on page six uh wolf dogs are are very
gentle and docel you know right correct they're really not don't have any kind of a mean bone in their body so to speak can you No can you just elaborate on that yes of course um wolf dogs uh if anything the most undesirable behavior that they have um is the shyness that
they they have from being part wolf uh they are not unpredictable animals u people assume because they're part wild animal that they're going to act as such and that is not the case uh wolves in the wild and this is what we talk about on our educational tours are actually
very fearful and timid animals so a lot of our rescues that we get come through our center um are very shy it takes them sometimes several months to warm up to people um but is aggression is not something that they show i've been here
for over nine years and never feared for my life or anything like that and you've had many people come through and there's never been any kind of Yes so we've had many people come through um of all ages um we've had the elderly come through three please
slide three please so this is Yes that's a big bad wolf right on that slide there so um they'll aggressively give you kisses our animals so I I just want to one of the things that Mr stevens will address there's questions about fencing and the
height of fence etc can you just um describe um the fencing and what the importance of it is of course all of our uh enclosures are made out of um cattle panel which is a really durable material
we don't have um wooden fencing that they could chew through or anything like that um everything is uh safely constructed we have double gated areas um in case an animal does sneak out their enclosure which doesn't happen but they would be in another enclosed area
um outside of that so if we can um go to I I I guess page 14 would be perhaps a good example where we could see the enclosure of the safety in the background okay can you just tell us is that the type of uh fencing that you
have yes yes it's a very um natural looking uh fencing I think um and the animals are really content uh living with us uh we really don't have any animals even attempt to want to escape uh the truth is um sometimes if we take
animals um for a walk on the property um they'll want to go right back in their enclosure uh that's like their comfort zone so a lot of our animals are most comfortable inside their enclosures so a big uh part of the mission and we have a room full of uh volunteers and
supporters here does does it become something that's uh you know very important communal where you uh build relationships with the people who come in and help take care of the animals etc if you could just elaborate briefly upon that yes definitely um we have actually
uh many work groups come and do volunteer projects uh cleaning up the facilities and things like that we have Bank of America come um we hold uh something with the volunteers that they help out with every Christmas we do photos with Santa and people come bring
their families to take a picture with a wolf dog and a volunteer dressed as Santa Claus um we do uh fundraising events um we've also provided scholarships to Jackson High Schools as well all right Colleen thank you very much that's just an overview just to
kind of refresh the memory uh from Colleen's testimony last time which was you know took a little bit of time um so with your permission if there's no further questions of Colleen I'd like to call Mr bill Stevens profit or is this a business a home
business can address it yes I can address it we are a 501c3 so we are nonprofit okay and that's set out right in our uh our our PowerPoint and that's an important thing this is a nonprofit it's a labor of love and the and the salaries are just to help the people get
by and um it's you know funded all by donations correct yes correct and I I think what we'd like to hear is is most of what we we heard were testimonials to all the good that Mr hesish does and his
helpers do and everybody here agrees with it but we're a land use board and our decision has to be based on let the land use laws of town and I hope you would get more into that yes Mr stevens will address that uh just to spoiler
alert we are in a farm zone it's a very rural area we think that this is has a lot more in common with an agricultural use than anything else um that's animals that kept there that the fences are very natural uh it's it's a wildlife habitat essentially we think it fits right in
with the agricultural zone but you'll hear that from Mr stevens because as opposed to me he has the actual qualifications that allows him to make that opinion it's evolved over the last Colleen yes uh we have been operating uh since 2010
it's the type of thing where uh Mr stevens can address this the zoning officials have event you know essentially said you know you're you're you're there let's it's time to make this uh uh legitimate for for lack of a better term to get the actual approval
in place for it i'm not aware of any complaints there were the zoning officer yeah the zoning officer just as part of his routine duties uh made a notation of it and said you know you're you're you're running this operation you're having guests it it's in the zone that that doesn't
exactly fit we think it would be a good idea if you came in front of the board to get the appropriate approval for it so and we have our motorcycle club next door you'll see they have wolves on their t-shirts uh they're our neighbor they they and and we're you know when you go to the aerial view if you could
look on um page two they were pets well that that that we've withtood the test of time the fact that we've been under the radar uh for that length of time I sus respectfully submit that that is something the board could draw a favorable inference from we think we're
an important part of the fabric of the community at this stage so we're hopeful the board sees that too after our proofs so the reason I put that up I don't know why that's black and white mr jackson excuse me so what you're saying is that up until now you do not have any permits
or approvals and that's why you're here today yes it evolved as a farm and they just started taking in rescue animals and it just kind of evolved without any thought that there was anything improper about it like I said it certainly has elements of a farm
any additional questions mr jackson Mr stevens thank you i'm sorry i just wonder if there are any questions from the public slide over a little so you don't get sick first and foremost big apologies i have
a terrible cold trying to stay away from everyone in this case caring is not sharing stevens also previously I was not please raise your right hand I do state your name
and your credial I'd be happy to William Stevens sve ven I am the vice president of professional design services I am a professional engineer and a professional planner licensed to practice here in the state of New Jersey and I've been appearing in that capacity in front of
to this board for more than 30 years closing 40 mr stevens this board accepts your credentials thank you thank you very much thank you and good evening Mr stevens i see you have uh notes and an outline um can you please just uh give the board an overview of the application
what zone are we in what's there how is it evolved and uh what approvals do we seek and then we'll go into your uh detailed zoning analysis i'd be happy to so the applicant in this case is seeking a D1 use variance to allow the existing wolf dog refuge to remain the farm is
meant to be a refuge for wolf dogs that require a facility such as this in order to live out their best lives the property is located along West Veterans Highway as we can see on the aerial photograph that we now have up on the
board you got it or you want me it's fine so the propertyy's located along West Veterans Highway to to the north east to our right west to the left hawen Road is just off the map to our left the farm
itself Hollingwood's Farm is located here and then perhaps what you see more from the road is the is our is our neighbor the Rugged Cross Motorcycle Club located next door directly across the street there is a pool supply company
now the property that we're looking at is in is in the RD zone it's approximately 10 acres the farm itself it is bordered mostly by Kier's Mills starting along our Easter property line and then running towards the back the
wooded area and the other back parts of the property back up to homes that are located out along Hawin Road but there's nothing that's close to the farm or or that's cleared there the the only part of the farm that really has any development in it at all is basically
located in our northwest corner here really adjacent to the the Motorcycle Club property that is where the development of this property is mr stevens what zone are we in and uh is there any uh particular use permitted in that zone that we're comparable to and
and please just uh start off with that so the property is located in in the in the RD zone the RD zone generally permits residential housing that's really what it what it is meant to be at a at a low density 3.8 acres if I
remember correctly and and that is what is generally permitted within the RD zone the property located across the street is in the neighborhood commercial zone which is why there are commercial uses located across the street thank you would you describe this as you
know a rural setting like almost like a farm setup it it is a very rural setting i we were trying to get some people out to the farm unsuccessfully uh I do encourage everyone to go and to see it it it really is something special um
they have they've won me over i I really appreciate what they do at Howlingwood's Farm um I I believe it to be a safe and well-run facility and I think it is something really special that we have here in Jackson Township i I think it is uh those of you who know me well know
that I'm very involved in our locally here in Jackson Wounded Warriors projects as well as working with handicapped children and Howlingwoods constantly brings their animals out to these events and you can just see the joy in the people when they when they see these animals it really it makes a
difference it's uh this is a very unusual case that we're bringing before you but it is something that is really interesting and I would encourage everyone who hasn't been there to see it to schedule a tour and go and see it so Mr stevens in terms of our improvements that are there can you just give a a a
general description of them i'd be happy to i don't know what number it is anthony could you put the site plan up so the site plan would be on page towards the back i think
17 17 thank you so in looking at at the site plan what we have in our northwestern corner is an existing home and a detached garage that is Mr hodan's home that is where he
lives he is the owner of Howlingwood's farm and he lives on the farm as his as his primary residence there's a driveway that comes off of West Veterans Highway that accesses his his garage and also leads you into a
gravel area which we see here shaded on our map that's used for guest parking when people come to visit the farm there is also a an area basically it's a a retail
store we'll call it and and an office area located in the center of the site and then the main pens for the site are located in this area and then there's a big exercise and playy yard that runs out into the back although the trees
aren't cleared it's it's in the woods but it's a place for the animals to to run and to play and a place for visitors to come and visit with the wolves so this place has a a a very wooded feel right it's like a uh you know a forested area for the most part it is yes it is
it is very rural very wooded uh hard hard to really see anything from the road if you you don't go into the facility you wouldn't realize what was happening there all right so please continue uh with your analysis and your outline so in in addition to seeking the D1 use
variance we are also seeking a waiver of providing a site plan for this facility we are not proposing any improvements to this facility we are looking to leave it just as it presently exists the the way the property is set up it works for the applicant and it does not pose any
safety issues and the site improvements while they are informal they work i would say that this facility functions a lot like some of our local farm markets do so we're not proposing to have any
site improvements whatsoever as I said earlier the property is in the RD zone and the home that Mr hodanis lives in by your tax records was constructed in 19 36 i just want to get the year right
it was constructed in 1936 so so the home itself predates the Pinelands and Jackson Township land use rules there were some comments in certainly in your planners review letter i don't recall if they were in your engineers letter as well about having the scenic corridor
setbacks here in the RD zone because that is a function when we have new development in the RD zone but in my opinion we should be looking at this property as it would have to provide the 80oot front yard setback which is what was the prior setback before
the scenic corridor zones the house itself is set back at roughly 80 ft one of the corners of the house is six inches over that it's at 79.5 if the board wants to call that out as a pre-existing non-conforming
variance then the applicant would seek that variance and the 6 ines out of the 80 ft is certainly something we could all agree is dimminimous there are two structures that are shown on our plan one of which is a trailer and one of which is a shed
that's located in the middle of our guest parking area they are in front of the 80 foot setback of the existing home and the applicant is going to remove the trailer that is there and relocate the shed that's located forward of that 80
ft to somewhere back behind the 80oot setback there there is quite a bit of talk in in both of the review letters talking about parking for the facility so when the volunteers or the staff come they all park at Mr odanish's house he's
got a driveway here that's set back some get that number right the garage itself is set back 142 almost 143 feet so there's ample parking for the staff volunteers and Mr hodanage to
park that is where they they park and then when guests come they park in the gravel area located to the east of the existing home and in front of what we're calling the office and and retail store so Mr
stevens you heard the testimony and you're familiar with the operations where it's small groups that come in basically on a scheduled basis uh kind of intermittently this isn't like a an attraction where it's got regular hours right this is all by appointment and
custom uh small groups is that a fair uh paraphrase of what our operations are that is a fair paraphrase if the board will recall as part of our prior testimony the farm doesn't accept visitors just in random you can't walk onto the farm random and go and visit
you have to schedule an appointment there you can only schedule an appointment over the phone they don't take internet appointments so they know who's coming to the farm they know when they're coming so that they can plan for the volunteers to be ready to greet them to make sure that they can access the
site safely have a place to park and and then interact with the walls which is why everyone is coming here in a safe and efficient manner and and when the tours occur a tour uh guide a representative is right there with them and they walk through they go to the different areas and um there there's a
little routine they go through that's fair it it it is fair yes mr odanish when we first took this took this case insisted that we come for a tour and I wanted to myself being an outdoorsman and familiar with his operation i wanted to see it too because I knew I would be
here trying to explain it to you and I wanted to understand so we actually went on one of his tours and uh yes very efficient very well-run very professional there's people that guide you through the entire process make sure that you safely enter the site and safely leave the site so the the point
I'm getting to in a roundabout way with this is you you described the parking lot you described the parking area you described the garage you said there's plenty of room uh we're seeking a site plan waiver it's it's kind of a rural um old old school type you compared it to a
farm stand does that work for our particular business model uh and if so if you believe so please explain how that works i think in this case that it does work i mean the board is very familiar with the facility they drive past and at times you will see there are cars there but there's never cars
overflowing out onto the county road i have I drive by there all the time my daughter lives right down the street some in this neighborhood constantly uh I have never seen cars parked out on West Veterans Highway as part of this facility so I would say that yes the model that the applicant has put
together works for this facility and being that we're on the edge of a wildlife area and we're in a rural zone um does it work to not have sight lighting to not have curbs to not have sidewalks to not have striped parking areas does that all fit in the character of the zone and if you agree please
explain well well it does i mean we're we're trying to keep this as a as a rural facility the whole idea of it is that it is a farm and it's a place to come and and be part of nature and and to learn more about wolf dogs and and what what they mean to our environment
and and most of all our use is that of a sanctuary is that is that also true this is a place where these uh dogs can be sheltered and taken care of etc that is correct yes so it's not just the function of allowing people to learn about wolf dogs it's also taking care of
them and saving them from you know people who can't handle them the chair since you're moving on I just had a question about the parking uh this this will retail professionals uh do the zoning laws in town and the ordinances
require a certain number of spots in in a area like this or for this type of business and if so do they have to be marked or is is a wave waving i'm not going to avoid your question i'm going
to ask you to ask Mr stevens yes to answer a question about his design and I'm happy to confirm or deny okay just for our record i want to I'm not testifying for the applicant let Mr stevens tell you just asking if you knew whether we had it thank you Mr stevens
please address this so So generally Dr what we have on site normally during an average day we'll have approximately 10 people working on the farm that will be parked at Mr hodannis's house and and those cars fit and then as the guests
are brought into the site we'll have a maximum 15 cars which fit in the gravel parking area is it like parking at Walmart no it it isn't but it's done so purposefully also because we're trying to keep this rural character i mean in in my
opinion parking for any kind of facility is is necessary when you're going to bring the public in but it also should meet the intent and purpose of of the plan that you're trying to put forth we don't want this to look like Walmart I guess is what I'm really trying to say
so you have a maximum number that you can accommodate in the parking area yes oh no that's absolutely very true Dr hoffstein and the farm controls how many people come they know who's coming and they know when they're coming okay thank
you so just to follow up on Dr hoffstein's question to Mr stevens there's not a particular parking standard in the Jackson Township land use ordinance for this specific use specific use isn't
permitted because it's simply not listed in our code that notwithstanding I think you got testimony from Mr stevens that says we regulate the number of vehicles on the site to satisfy any parking need
that the board might determine so if board members recall at the end of our parking standard says if there's not a specific characterization of the use the board shall use the best judgment similar uses that sort of language so in
this particular case if the board finds that Mr stevens and the operator's testimony was sufficient then you can make a recognition that in a rural area we decided not to put in as Mr stevens called it a a Walmart parking lot
however there could be a limitation in the board's approval to the number of vehicles or the number of patrons or the number of participants at the site based upon the number of parking spaces they can safely fit without coming back to us for a site plan so I think you're on the
right track i think we just need to get a little more testimony to say okay this is what you're going to do this is the limit of what you're going to do if you decide to go past that limit then you may have to come back here and get something more formal from the board in terms of site plan improvements okay thank you can I just
follow up yes Mr um I I I think I got it and I think I heard it but just to be absolutely clear I'll use your analogy of the Walmart uh parking lot with all the markings and stuff so Jackson has no ordinance that says your parking has to
look like Walmart you need all those markings you have to have that on there right um that's what our expert just explained to me or or somebody that's what you say there you don't have to have it look like Walmart that that
would be correct Mr martins we have many many uses here in town that that don't have that and it's you know judged on a uh application by application basis okay great um and then then one other thing um I think I heard so Jackson for this
very particular special use nowhere is there a good zoning code that says "Yeah you could do this." No Mr right this is not allowed well we never thought of it probably right right it's it's not contemplated because it is
just such an unusual use okay that's good that's all thank you yes if I may just there's the one most similar parking requirement that I found in the code was for animal care facility which has a requirement of one space for
every 400 square ft of gross floor area and based off my calculation for the building area that would require eight parking spaces on the site where the applicant has 15 for the guests and this is uh we would respectfully submit not an animal care facility it's not a
veterinarian's office in any way shape or form so we think um you know it's really nothing like that use uh so we'll you know address it that way moving on talking about utilities for the site so the existing home that's
Mr hodannis's home is serviced by a a septic system and by a well the well on my site plan is shown straddling the property line it was called out by one or both of your professionals i'm sorry I don't recall uh my surveyors went back out measured it really is just a
drafting thing the well is on our property it's 1.1 feet from the property line to the well itself so it it is on the well or it is on our property i'm sorry we talked about the two structures that are located forward of the 80 ft the the shed and the trailer which one
is to be relocated one is to be removed there are questions from both of your professionals this is interesting actually about this fenced area that's located in the eastern part of our site along Collier's Mills that is not part
of of the wolf sanctuary what it is is Mr odanish put this fence up to protect some native wild flowers that are growing in that area that he he is fond of so it's meant to keep animals out and allow these wild flowers to grow that is
what it's for but it just speaks to what they're trying to do here at Howlingwood's Farms and and it it goes on and on from you know bird feeders bird houses batous trying to improve the land for for the
natural wildlife it's uh it really is part of what they're about question just could you clarify um I understand that there's an office and then there's a retail site and you mentioned the trailer which is going to be removed in a shed are those uses the
office and then the uh retail site those in those facilities where where are those located i'm not sure I understand the question so the shed that's located out in in front of the in front of let's call it
forward of the house line of 80 ft it's located in the middle of the guest parking area what what I'm saying is that if the board were to agree with me and I'm hopeful that you will that we should establish an 80 foot front yard setback for this site and that that shed
should be relocated beyond the 80 foot front setback what is that shed used for because I believe that there was testimony last time that there's an office then there's a retail site so so the shed that's located in the front is simply used for storage the the
office and and the retail site located basically in the center uh to to see it would would be important because it is small the the retail portion of this is maybe 500 square feet the office is
smaller and what what is it for it's for bringing guests into the farm when you first come onto the farm it's where you go into you go into this this part of the facility where you're instructed on how to interact with the wolves and you go in the one door and you go out the
other out the back door of the facility and they'll take you through the the wolf preserve and then you come back to this facility where you leave and a lot of times people have things that they shouldn't have on them dangly jewelry or a ham sandwich in their pocket ham
sandwich fake fake fur colleen is saying to me I remember there was a whole list of we we went with some attorneys from John's office some of his female colleagues and they had all had all kinds of things that had to stay in the store till we came back yeah you can't have wool because it turns out wolves
like wool yeah no wool um and you know they'll put their snout right in your pocket and take it out they won't harm you but it's a you know you don't want the wolf's snout in your pocket trying to take out something really what I'm getting to is I'm just trying to understand what this structure is um to know whether we
have two principal uses or is it a Yeah it's really a staging area like Mr stephen said where you muster and gather and get ready for your tour and you get your education you meet your tour guide and there are some t-shirts and and some uh what's the word keys little things
souvenirs uh but it's very very minor it's not the type of thing a retail store where people would come in general um you know bas Colleen is that correct so if you could just you know let us know is this a principle two principal uses what are you proposing here well
that that's a very astute observation there is a retail component and but we think that that is a accessory to the uh you know to the use that we're proposing which really defies definition it's a it's a wolf sanctuary that allow that's
a residence that allows part-time guided tours um so it's primarily a residence so I'm sorry it's primarily a residence yeah it's Mr mr hish's house and he has this passion for took the wolves in the wolf dogs in uh to rescue them and as
part of that it evolved into you know letting the the dogs go to schools and go to the air force and go um you know in various places so to me it looks like there's two principal uses here i I as I'm trying to understand I respect that your testimony is I think that's a
pretty astute observation i I would I would agree it's it is just important for the board to understand though that the let's say the retail and office operation really functions as one however people can't come into the store from off the street it's only for guests
that are invited to the farm so that that might be Mr uh Stevens i I want to jump over to um something that Mr peters had had mentioned um about when something is not identified in its own and I'm going to read you something particular suitability under the Medici
case uh for a non-inherently beneficial use which use is not listed in the ordinance the applicant must prove that the property is particularly suitable for the proposed use this goes beyond showing that the property can accommodate the use it requires demonstrating that there is a unique fitness between the land and the
proposed use often due to the property's location size shape topography and other distinctive characteristics um the applicant may need to show why the specific site is especially appropriate for the unlisted use compared to other properties in the
municipality would you say that that is this is a custom fit for that Medici standard that this use you know defies any kind of characterization and it's a great spot for it and if you agree with that please just elaborate i I would say that both things are really true this
this use almost does defy definition it's it's not going to be found in land use ordinances because It's not often proposed but this site is uniquely suited to this use and that it is rural and and remotely located having been
bordered on on two sides by our Collier's Mills Wildlife Management Area it it is particularly well suited for this for this use and even with you know the fences that we saw in the exhibit they're you know like
um it's a wire fence it blends right in with the forest i mean can you see that from a number of feet away and is that great for this type of a rural um develop a rural area i I think that it is you know the Howling Woods farm is is called a farm and when we drive by it on
the street that's what it looks like it looks like a farm so it's not behind a stockade barricade fence or anything like that it blends right in with the forest it does yes all right so I I hope I've answered your question so is there anything else in your analysis um I know we have to take a look at the letters i
want to try to I'm sorry before that I just want to return to what Mr h was asking because I feel like there was a suggestion there were two principal uses and one accessory use i want to be clear on what the principal
uses are are you saying the sanctuary and the residents are principal uses and the store is the accessory use i just wasn't wasn't clear on how you were presenting that um bear with me for one second
so so what we saw in our notice a deuse variance to continue the existing use of the property is a wolf dog animal rescue and a public education facility um the applicant uses this property to provide educational learning experiences to the
public about wolf dogs and wolf dogs as a rescue sanctuary for the same um so that's what we're seeking use for there's a home mixed in with that so but that we would submit is accessory to this overall use as a sanctuary so um to
Mr steven's point and under the Medici standard I don't think you're going to see a zoning uh definition of that use anywhere in the country um but so that we think those uses are all subsumed within the major use it's difficult to take
something unusual like this and put it in a resolution but as Mr stevens described it it has a residence it has the sanctuary and it does have a public education component as well thank you through through the chair again just to
clarify you keep mentioning the Medici case I'm just trying to understand that that's when specifically you want to the uh suitability is specific for this property that that much I could understand um my question really was the
principal uses you're having multiple uses here what are the principle what are the accessory uses and I'm not referring to the specific speific sanctuary um by itself i'm talking about the fact that there is a home on the
property and there is an additional my understanding is primary use in in zoning there are very often principal uses that have under their umbrella accessory uses the first example that comes to mind for me is is a school a school might have a gymnasium where they
have basketball games a school might have a football field where they have football games a school might have a uh an auditorium where they have plays they might have a cafeteria where they uh provide meals so it's not a restaurant use it's not a basketball arena it's not
a football stadium it's not a theater it's a school and what's recognized is that under that umbrella there's there's various subservient uses and and you know the examples can go on and on i could give you 30 different type of uses that have you know for example if you have a uh a restaurant and there's a
laundry in the restaurant to wash all the tablecloths that doesn't become a laundromat but they allow laundry as part of their use so what our what our case is here our particular use melds all of these components into the overall
use of a uh you know the sanctuary that we're asking for so as your testimony that the primary use is the wolf dog farm yes and that the home is accessory to it yes
yes i mean this is a residential well that's Mr stevens is the plan or not i mean I I if you could please testify because I'm not getting much clarity out of the primary secondaries or accessory uses can Mr stevens can you elaborate on that you're the one with the planning
degree so so the existing residence that that is there is is permitted actually predates your ordinance so it it it is a an existing home that fully conforms with in my opinion with your zoning requirements not why we're here we're here because we're we're running this
animal sanctuary that requires a use variance so that is what we're here for the use variance for but is the home to remain on the property and is the homeowner going to stay there yes that's part of the mission of this farm are there also other things happening here
with the the office work that takes care of making sure the animals have something to eat and and the people get what they need and and a small retail store there are but they're all really melded into this one use of this this animal sanctuary so that that is what I
see is the D1 variances for but um you could I guess you could say there are two primary uses a a single family residence and this animal sanctuary this house was built in the
primarily was a home and it still is a home the home is still there so to me that's the primary use of this property and the secondary use is the bar
that's how I see I do you agree i'm I'm asking the applicant to please testify to it i guess you guys need to tell us if that is in I I wouldn't say it's incorrect there's a matter of how one looks at it and how you're sitting on
the fence you got to decide i I our position is that it's one use of a sanctuary that has a home on it and that that's all part of the use we do not believe it would be inappropriate though to assess it to uh address it as a you
know one use is the home and other another use is with the animal sanctuary wolf dog sanctuary phil do you want to just but to piggyback what Mr hudach was saying the the examples that you were giving or we could agree are
commercial uses schools restaurants these are commercial uses most accessories of what you're speaking about with residentials are pools you know sheds so that's where I think we're you know the examples that you were stating to
piggyback what you were saying there are so many variations in use and I don't you know want to you know disagree with what you said but my my high school that I went to St joe's high school in Tom's River now monior Dunovan did have residences there the priests and the nuns lived in the complex that housed
the church the high school the grammar school etc i can name restaurants of clients of mine where the restaurant is downstairs and upstairs are apartments where the workers live in so it's not unusual to combine residential uses a self- storage facility uh that I used to
own had the uh steward the caretaker of the self- storage i think we had one in Jackson and well on County Line Road and there was an on-site manager and that was viewed as accessory to the overall use so you know I I I don't there's so
many nuances to zoning and land use and I think to have the home on board on the same location is a is a tremendous benefit because you have the person whose heart and soul is in this right there at all times so if if I'm if I sound like I'm you know waffling or it's
hard to specifically characterize this which I think goes directly to the Medici standard where there's no zoning regulation that outlines what the criteria is for a um you know for for this particular type of use that's that's the best I can do i hope I've
answered your question and addressed your issue actually and if you have a building that has a restaurant on the first floor and a second floor mixed use right
but I think you have to the principal use and principal use for you know 80 years has been a home and
over the past 10 or 15 years it's now also fair I think overall the
gentleman is primary If I had a garden in my backyard you know doesn't make you a farmer it's still a home right point point well well said and taken Mr thank you moving forward there there also were comments uh in your in your
planners report there is a trail along our eastern property line it basically ends really near where the developed area of our property is that that was not built by Mr hodannis it uh accesses parts of Kier's Mills we think it perhaps might be some type of a fire
road and as we all know people who live in this block in Jackson Township are aware that we need access to these wooded areas for fire protection so um Mr stevens I I think in a roundabout way we've addressed the review letters i don't know if there's
any particular points um you know I I I I know we have the planning review letter from Mr peters we also have the uh engineering review letter from Mr roier um is there any particular items on that that you want to address
i I think we've really covered most of them the things we haven't talked about are are that there was comments brought up about the sign that's out in front of the farm there is a a wolf statue and a sign out in front of the farm that says Howling Woods Farm on it i would call that as a as
a get that word from your ordinance as a name plate sign and I believe that it is fully permitted there also were comments about buffering for the for the farm by my interpretation we would be required to have a 10-ft buffer
now again looking at properties to our east Kier's Mills obviously there isn't anything to buffer there as well as the portion of the property to the east in the rear and then the residential lots these people all live out on Hawen
Road they're very far away the only neighbor we have who is in in direct relation to this site is the Rugged Cross Motorcycle Club which is located here that is the only place we don't have that 10-ft buffer but we have
helpful to look on page two of the PowerPoint while we're going to the adjoining neighbors aerial view but we have done our best to be good neighbors some of those people are here and and they also will give their testimony have their chance to say how how they feel about the
use i think that was all that I had on on So Mr stevens in your view as a planner do the benefits that way and do you think that we can um you know do we have special reasons for the reasons that we you and I just discussed i I believe that we do the planning
testimony for this this is as I said a D1 use variance case and it does require special reasons for the board to approve this variance as I've said numerous times and as we've heard this is an unusual case and to me it's clear the facility
has a special purpose for caring for these animals that have no other place to turn i believe they're truly doing a good thing the farm is used for both educational and charitable purposes they're they're doing work for here in Jackson
Township the special reasons that we have to apply to use variances D1 variances like this they come out of this the purposes of zoning from the municipal municipal land use law and I would state that you could use point A
which is to encourage municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals and general welfare i think that should the board look favorably and grant this variance that
this this application certainly promotes a general welfare the farm serves as a charitable and educational facility that benefits benefits the community all while providing a needed refuge for wolf dogs i think we could also apply point C
which is to provide adequate light air and open space and as you have heard through my testimony and through Colleen's testimony that the majority of the farm is is undisturbed the vegetation is left preserved and it really is in keeping with the rural
character and nature of of this part of Jackson Township in my opinion and I think we could also promote point G which is to provide sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of agricultural residential recreational
commercial and industrial uses and open spaces both public and private according to their respective environmental requirements in order to meet the needs of all New Jersey citizens th this use as we have said is is not
specifically permitted by the Jackson ordinance because while it is needed it's it's not often proposed the location of this facility being on a county road and being mostly isolated surrounded by other commercial and rural properties I think makes this property
very well suited for this use thank you i have no further questions for Mr stevens madam Chair question uh two things first of all I believe there was testimony at the last meeting about an 8 foot fence is there any need for a variance for that i believe that that was testimony
that was given it's a good question i'm looking at your zoning officer uh the the the panels that that are erected to keep the wolf dogs in are 8 ft high but they're not like something that blocks vision right they're they they are open
it's it's not like a chainlink fence i mean you saw some of the pictures they kind of blend into the background when you drive by there you don't see them which something I appreciated but to Mr heyman's point it would need a variance if it's an eighth of fence according and I could tell you that you know we had a different application that had lattice
also at 8 ft and the zoning officer concluded that it did need a variance correct and that would be correct that's why I'm asking you if that's your opinion if if the board and your professionals feel that a variance is required for that we would request that
we believe the 8-oot fences are absolutely required here for keeping the wolf dog safe so if we could take a look at page 14 on the PowerPoint this this shows how unobtrusive these fences are i would respectfully submit
um right you can see the fence in the background and you know on the picture on the left you can hardly pick it out likewise on page three if we could go to that i'm sorry Mr jackson are you suggesting that because you can see through it the
height doesn't matter no it goes to the reason for a variance if it's Oh okay all right i thought you were still saying that you didn't need a variance no they're they're clearly 8 feet Miss Briani it's no questioning that they are okay yeah no I I said that we would need that that's a good uh you know notation
but this goes to the reason why it would make sense to allow it so I would just stipulate that they should be such type fence meaning it should not be a solid fence or be something like a chain link or an open view fence the style of fence is there now that's see-through and
unobtrusive and blends in with the woods we would agree to that as a stipulated then the other question is um any kind of testimony about uh emergency vehicles ingress egress to the site for safety emergency situations fire um
something happens to somebody you give some kind of testimony to that so uh we could go back to the site plan on page 17 thank you i forgot the page number and the um you know these are gates that are readily accessible if someone had to
get into the area where the uh people were on tour where the wolves were but as far as the buildings Mr stevens can you address access to the buildings so so the the front part of the property is is very easily accessed we could get emergency equipment on and off the site as we could with any other residential
properties there is access into the home the garage as well as into the gravel guest parking area so we can get men and equipment on and off of this site in my opinion safely wi without any problem thank you
has the fire department done any type of review of the uh circulation i thought I saw that in one of the professionals letters so we we did not get a review by the fire department i'm expecting that the fire department inspects the facility
annually so the fire department does inspect the facility annually Madam Chair and and the applicant does stipulate and well we don't we all don't have any choice when they show up they tell you what they want and you have to do it so I believe that they believe that it's a safe facility but happy to request
further approval mr peters you have anything for us related to general or or the fence issue any of it i don't take any exception to Mr steven's testimony as it relates to either the bulk or use variance he hit
all the points um waited till the end to get to the proofs for the Dvariance but um as it relates to the purposes of zoning I think they've addressed the required purposes of zoning
as it relates to the waiver of sight plan um I think the board needs to have something if they were to craft an affirmative resolution that is specific to this use because as we know everything becomes
generational wasn't here 15 years ago and 15 years from now it might be someone else's so I think we need to based upon the testimony that the applicant's given consider the what they're going to be doing and
almost as importantly for enforcement what they're not going to be doing so if we leave here with just well it's a real nice use and everyone likes it that's not going to help if there's a problem two years down the road and the zoning officer looks at
the zoning board resolution and says well we like the application so we approved it i think we need to list what they're going to do what the limits are in terms of um animals on the site people on the site the
parking it seems and I'm going to very general statement it seems that it works right now so except for the fact that it got noticed and they didn't have all of the subsequent zoning permits that were necessary it seems to work so if the
board's satisfied with that we craft a resolution that says "Here's what they're doing currently." They've said that you know there may be a few more animals or a few more people in a in a group um and we have enough parking for all that so when they ask for the use
variance I think we can describe what they're proposing to do based upon the testimony that's been given as it relates to the waiver of site plan I think we can also craft a resolution that speaks to number of parking spaces how
um how visitors are controlled how um water and sewer facilities are provided both for um people on the site people who visit the site and the people who work on the site i think we've gotten that testimony just we need to sort of
put it in a bow whether Mr jackson does it as part of his summation or the board members go through those things they found important from the testimony again I didn't take any issue with the testimony Mr stevens gave as it related to the C or D variance relief that was requested thank you ma madam chair if I
may uh respond to Mr peter's uh uh comments which are definitely born of experience um we provided a statement of operations that's in our PowerPoint on page 15 that mirrors the testimony and gives very specific details as exactly what our operations are we give the
number of employees we give the number of tours we give the number of people on tours etc and we would stipulate that our use is specifically tied into adherence to those uh operations and that any expansion of those would require further relief from the board so that the zoning officer could go there
and say you know you stipulated that this is how this is to operate or Mr hades did five 10 years ago you must abide by this just like with any other site so with that we think we could fulfill um Mr uh Peter's um very wise
advice to the board thank you Mr roier anything for us i would agree with Mr peter's comments um and specifically we can go through the statement at least highlight the statement of operations just so everyone's on the same page talking
about um visitors by appointment only limited number of parking vehicles all that stuff just to ensure that the use stays as it is now and it's appropriate um can I just ask Mr yeah just one quick question on that and I apologize I didn't read the statement of operations
does it cover that small retail space that we spoke about um I I have it it does yes you state what it is and that it is only to be used for people that are invited to the farm it is not for the general public i'll read it it says
the retail operation is approximately 500 square feet retail stairs are limited to tour participants the facility does not accept walk-in traffic you're required to have an appointment to visit retail sales are limited to wolf paraphernalia clothes jewelry and other decorations the money collected
from the retail sales is another way the facility raises money to uh to support it goes into the donation pile and I have a larger print version if you Oh okay that that's good no it's up to you uh um I got it that that was my concern so that you know as you stated 15 years
from now you decide I can make a fortune on this retail stuff and you expand it and how do we control that perfect thank you thank you any other questions since we are asked to uh approve a use
that's specific and unusual and uh a use variance runs with the land at some point the operation is going to end and hopefully last for many many years but how does the board handle
a future use of the property when if if this sanctuary is disbanded a change in use would require them to come back to this board if they something that isn't this use or isn't a permitted use in this zone they
come back here okay and somewhere along the line some attorney better advise whomever buys a land that Well listen we all live in the world where sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission okay well that's unfortunate there's no I don't there's anyone in the room that's not
been guilty of that once so if the board has a real concern that somehow this gets out of control and the municipality doesn't have protections I can throw something out there and have the attorneys argue with each other you
could make it a deed restriction file it as part file it as with the property what what we have done that that that satisfies I think your concern if it transfers from you to me or me to you that it's part of the deed transfer what
I've done in in other instances like this is um we prepared a memorandum that runs with the land that advises future per purchasers that there is a resolution of approval that must be abided by as opposed to a deed restriction which is a lot you know you
can't undo that uh but we think a memorandum uh might be an appropriate thing to alert a buyer in a shocking turn of events i agree with Mr jackson this is unprecedented i was going to yell at the board like
the last attorney so I I made sure not to do that don't do that yeah just one more thing i just want to commend Mr odish for taking Mr hudac's advice and providing us with a copy of the liability insurance uh good move
thank you thank you any other questions or comments yes sorry excuse me i'm sorry Mr hyman i'm just trying to remember from last time was there any kind of um testimony about a dumpster for trash removal
so yes we do have trash removal located on the site is it a dumpster or is it just a rolloff at the street no no no we have a we have a dumpster and we also do recycling on site it is in
our statement of operation also which I was just looking for it but uh refuse on the site is picked up by a private hauler waste generated by the animals is collected multiple times daily bag disposed of in a dumpster and recycling from the site is collected by
the municipal service here in town that everybody else uses so could you just testify where that where that location is is it specific and is there easy access for uh garbage trucks to remove it i forget but I I thought it was
located when did they pick it up and if it's during operations oh it is it's in the So Colleen is telling me that it's that it's located in the in the gravel area we'll we'll we'll locate it and we'll we'll show it to the board professionals where it is located
okay and then just finally if you know maybe uh someone could give me some clarity i don't think that I have an answer on the principle uh secondary what's principle what's secondary use i still at a loss i don't know if that's a question for me
or comment or just amusing or so I I think I think we just we summed it up Mr i think we summed it up best with with Mr hudac actually really clarifying it that the primary use of this property for 80ome years has been a single family residential home it was a
farm I'm sure in those days also but a different kind of farm so the primary residence would be the the primary use would be the residence and and the farm would be a secondary use that we're seeking the use variance for because the residence is permitted mr hedes would
tell you that it was a chicken farm if I called him to testify uh but I don't know if that's necessary i think there's other folks that want to speak and get their cases heard tonight i think that's our case um and when I do my summation I'll address the use and I'm sure Miss Cyprieni at the appropriate time will be
able to craft a resolution that adequately describes the uses that are encompassed if the board is inclined to approve this if so that's certainly my hope um just are there any um is there anyone present
who has a question for Mr stevens i just want to make sure that Okay sorry go ahead so for the manager right now you guys have 15 dogs right and you're seeking
maximum 20 dogs does that mean you're going to need to expand the fence in and you have enough hold that the extra five dogs yes microphone please sorry thank you yes um we don't like to overcrowd so if we stay
at 15 for a while that's fine um it depends on rescue inquiries that we get but sometimes we'll stay at the number 15 for several months if not longer um but we never go over 20 um it doesn't
mean even if we have 20 we may find homes for a couple of those dogs so it never stays at that number it's always usually lower than that thank you this actually shows 25 on the statement of operations it shows you presently no no no that says there
are 25 rescue dog facilities they have 15 dogs oh okay yeah I read it wrong the first time that's how I knew what you were talking about any other questions or comments given that there's no Okay I just was waiting to see if any say
anything seeing there don't no additional questions or comments from the board I'm going to open to the public anyone wishing to come forward and make uh any comments about testimony you've heard this evening i have a couple questions i'm sorry i have a couple questions my name is Paul
River i live on West Commodore now do you have kennels on this property mr i'm sorry i we just Thank you all right yes I do do you swear that the testimony you'll give before this boil is the truth and nothing but the truth yes and please state for your name for the record even though I just said it uh
Paul Rivier I'm at West Commodore i It's a little confusing because you said it's a big uh you have education a school it's educational in nature where people come they learn about just like if you go to an aquarium you learn about the
dolphin okay so is there going to be a building where people can sit down and and see slides no what we described as a gift area is a place where people There's no chairs in there so it'll be
outdoor discussions yes okay now so it's primarily just a check-in area uh where you check in um we keep a sheet and a list of who's supposed to be showing up uh so the the parties check in there um they make their donation and they're not in that building for very
long and then we take them out into the enclosures and the education part is the tour itself where we educate um history about wolves and you know where we got our dogs from and their stories so there's no classroom it's just a like a like a guide providing uh education no
it doesn't take place in a classroom uh it's just a walking tour where your tour guide is just going over right now um I didn't hear anything about restrooms so I think f first and foremost what we wanted to say is we're not proposing any
changes to the facility the way the facility has been operating it's hopefully how it's going to continue to operate we're seeking the board's approval to allow that to happen so there's no new buildings there's no there's no changes to the site whatsoever so I'm assuming you live nearby you've seen the operation we're
not we're not proposing to change it i don't live nearby but people who visit and have to use a restroom oh right so we we have we have um portaotties located on site for guests that visit and that's your site plan is portaotties correct yes that's what's being used
okay now the waiver of the site plan um why have a waiver 100% why not do some kind of rudimentary site plan because they the people really don't know what's being approved unless there is a south plan we we did submit a plan okay that's
kind of like a That is That's your site plan correct yes okay now what about the wetlands is there wetlands on that property not to the best of my knowledge no no so so you you've uh you've checked it out on the G2 or whatever that is yes
we have okay so my Mike uh is Mike I what I was thinking is it would it be more advantageous to make us a private club rather than uh a um public operation public business
i'm just saying well I'm asking the attorney would it be less less rec Oh you're the I'm sorry i'm the engineer uh would it be less requirements for a site plan if it was a private club i'm asking the attorney
the engineer I'm sorry okay so you're going to enter this document as the site plan yes we already have it's been submitted the site plan's been submitted listing of all the facilities there yes and on top of that we have our statement of operation which
is very detailed this was all done purposely so so the board would be very clear on what it is they are approving and because of the Mr river yeah sorry I just gonna ask you definitely want to give you your opportunity to ask questions but also if you could be mindful of the time because some of
these things have been covered um and would you say I'm not I'm taking too much time i didn't quite say it that way but if you could focus and end soon that would be my questions so Okay all right
thank you all right so you just made me forgot my question all right so um along those lines if if it becomes a big success and are you and you're saying that people cannot come on the property unless they're invited and have
invitation they've been operating for 15 years they're already in operation right i understand that you're saying if it becomes a success but what I'm trying to say is they've already been in operation they're very well established they submitted evidence about all the
different things that they do in the community all right then why did they come into zoning board if they only already in operation discussed when their testimony started when Mr mr
wolf did not realize 15 years ago that he needed a zoning okay so he's coming in for the right so are you uh are you saying he's grandfathered no that's not what I'm saying okay all right so the other
question is as things get bigger they won't get bigger our statement of operations and our conditions of approval that we're stipulating to have specific no more than 20 wolves it states the number of people who will visit the times of the visits etc and a member of the public driving down the
road can't make a right turn and go in there and uh buy something at the store they cannot okay by appointment i just wanted to clarify that thank you um um um Mr river Paul one second let me just So to our attorney's point right many of
the questions you're asking are great questions um those are actually questions some of them I already asked others have already asked um you're just repeating every you know stuff that's already been covered try try to avoid that that concludes my
questions thank you thank you Paul thank you thank you they're all great questions i had them to come forward at this time yes thank you do you swear the testimony will be given before this board will be the truth and nothing but the truth yes ma'am and will you please state your
name and address for the record my name is Donald Cove and I live next door um I assume you mean to the applicant not to this building yes ma'am that's correct i live next to the Howling Wolf Farms um so I you know
I' I've grown to um have a great relationship with with Mike um I love his passion it overlaps into my passion i'm I'm the chaplain for our dus and and I deal with my brothers and and veterans throughout the state of New Jersey and
um I think it's an awesome thing he lets it he opens it up for for veterans um on special days Veterans Day and Memorial Day and things like that um you know he's if he needs parking he's can park on my property anytime he
wants um I I think it's a great and and I think the animals are I mean I've been to these horse farms i've been to these dogs in general it's great therapy i've got guys who own service dogs and it's closer than family for them and I know
these are wolf dogs i've never seen such calm animals i mean they're they're and I guess and I just learned about that that it's because of their wolf tim timidity or whatever you want to call it um but these dogs are very very quiet
and and calm more common than regular domestic dogs in my opinion the ones that I've seen you know I've seen a lot of good service dogs too actually but uh these animals are are are awesome and and and that whole organization that whole uh mission is is an awesome thing
and I just think that there's no reason even to to you know question it so that's my Thank you so much yes ma'am anyone else wishing to come forward hi how you doing uh my name is uh Steven
Foresight and I'm also u along with Grunt or with Donald Cove there i'm with the Rugged Cross um motorcycle club it's a Christian motorcycle club and we live just to the west um is where the clubhouse is um so I see that you're raising your hand but I just like So do
you swear this you'll testimony you'll give to this board it'll be the truth and nothing but the truth i do thank you please continue yeah so just a quick testimony real quick it's past my bedtime here um so but um you know every year we hold an annual wolf run it's
named after um you know the howling woods um farm there um and it's just a it's a great day we come it's in support of veterans um Donald mentioned uh Madus that's an organization that supports veterans in
crisis when they come back from the war um it's named after the uh 22 veterans that commit suicide um and uh you know we we come over we put a fence in on the Rugged Cross property which is you know just to the west um of of the property
and he'll come over he'll bring dogs that are fenced in and uh we'll have vendors set up and games and it's a family fun event and you know the the public will come in they'll see the wolves and um and we just raise funds for the for the veterans and we even try
to raise funds for you know Mike here in Howen Woods and what does he do he just he gives he gives it right back to the veterans um so that's the type of type of people these are here um just supporting the community um and it would
it would be a shame if if if if you were not if you were not able to continue so that's all I have to say thank you thank you anyone else wishing to come forward hi hi do you swear the testimony you'll give to this board before this board is
the truth and nothing but the truth yes I do and please state your name and address for the record hi my name is Christine Watson i live at 1383 West Veterans speak into my Thank you i live at 18 uh Yeah where do I live i live two doors down from Mike is where I live so um
it's been a long tiring day so the reason I came up is because I just wanted to let thought it was important to share that I do live two doors down i am never disturbed by any traffic um any visitors the sounds of the wolves are beautiful i
hear them at night sometimes and it's just such a a nice comforting um thing to hear plus you know it's such a great um thing that Mike is doing for the wolves saving them there's only 13
facilities in the United States that actually do this type of thing and um I was actually able to go the other day for a second tour when I first moved there I went through initially with my children and it was just really just
uh amazing and when I went the other day it hadn't lost in the five years it has been that I lived there any of the charm or the the awe that it was to see the wolves in their or the wolf dogs in their habitat um it is beautiful from
where I am in my backyard it doesn't obstruct any of the natural beauty that you know is in the surrounding area it's very tranquil and it's just a beautiful thing that he does for everybody and I just wanted to share that thank you thank you so much for coming forward so
Madam Chair we have about 15 people is everybody here like same sentiments more or less i can have each one of them come up uh they'd like to but I think the board gets the point and I know you have other applications so if the board's satisfied that we have a lot of supporters very passionate about this
whole thing um I think we can move on and just go to summation thank you Mr jeff thank you if you'd like to go ahead and give us your summation and well first of all let me say thank you all for coming out and being so patient thank you so it's closed to the public i'm sorry that's closed to the public
now no further yes i'm going to go ahead and close public session thank you uh if we could just go to the uh PowerPoint um I guess page one would be fine so what we have I respectfully submit is a community resource that and it's a
national resource it's a state resource this is something that makes a community richer uh when you have your your kid your grandchild you want to go on a date you want to go with your spouse significant other is really a cool thing to do um Mr hedish has over the last uh
20 years built up a a great following of supporters and people who are as passionate about as him he's been a good neighbor there haven't been any problems this exactly fits the rural character uh that Jackson Township has uh you drive by it's woods it's it's beautiful um and
we're hopeful that the board sees this as a very unique resource of course it's not in the zoning regulations because who would put you know we struggled with it tonight after hearing the whole case so I can't imagine codifying something like this we uh respectfully submit we meet the criteria uh for the variance
and we're hope the board sees the merits of this thank you very much thank you any questions comments it's up to us board to discuss i'll make one small comment not not an important comment but um I I think you
mentioned that you tried to get some of us to to take the tour and stuff like that i can tell you for me I drove by i purposely didn't want to take the tour because I didn't want to be influenced by all that great stuff right so I need to be independent so it's not that I
didn't care i did drive by but I I didn't it's a fine line yeah okay just that's it thank you yeah just um just to frame it again as we know they're here for uh D1 variance
so also the smaller question of the uh variance for the fence it was a 8 foot fence i think there was a condition also that it would have to be seen through that was discussed there's also the question of site plan waiver some of the
uh conditions that um Mr peters had proposed would be uh that we if the board is inclined that it be conditioned on the operational
um parameters that are set forth in the statement of operations it would be incorporated into an ordinance um we also had discussion regarding the fact that the uh residence was the primary use and that the uh sanctuary uses would
be a secondary use and there was a uh statement by Mr jackson suggesting that there could be a memorandum put on the time of sale that any buyer would be aware made aware of the uh zoning board approval if there should be one so those
are the comments and questions that I attend wanted to uh remind the board of the uh relief sought mr yes just two additional um relocating the shed and uh res updating the survey to show the shed
and dumpster chair is there something with the signage the the signage doesn't require any variance at this time i'm sorry Mr roar i said I talked about relocating the shed um in accordance
with the 80 foot uh line is that what you were referring to 80 foot setback along the front yard yes correct and the and then updating the plan to show the shed and the dumpster correct
okay we have a motion in a second any additional questions or comments okay roll call please mr brezie before I cast my vote I'd like to make a couple statements one I've
been in many planning on zoning board for years and when you have something that's silent in our laws our ordinances it's the first time I ever heard an attorney address how you still have to fit the certain needs of it to apply and I give you much credit for that i have never heard that before i believe with
your statement of operations the public testimony your page seven in the slide of everything you give to the township I definitely vote yes mr mr hyman yes dr hoffstein yes mr hudac yes m rosal
yes mr martins yes mr such no sorry okay miss Bradley and I just have to piggy back on Mr breie said i thought the presentation was extremely well done and I have to um say in my four years of
being on the zoning board we've never had so many people out in support since I've been on the zoning board anyway for an application so I think that shows what a great job that's being done so I say yes as well congratulations thank you very much
all right we are going to move on to applicant number three okay sorry understood where did I guess everyone's taking a break oh all right okay Chief
Mr junko we're going to take a we're going to take a quick fivem minute break okay that's okay we're going to take a quick fivem minute break so basically the property is bounded by three arterial county roads the property
is about 158 acres property is in the RG2 residential zone that is the regional growth zone of Pinelands it's been zoned that way since 1981 the regional growth zone is an area of pineelands that promotes uh growth
subject to environmental uh satisfying environmental constraints uh uh the property u is occupied by a number of houses and the area to the northern part of the property you see
three lakes here that's the former Maple Lake campground and then you have uh there's also Whitlock Drive I should say that goes behind the top lake uh that there's some of the houses so there's some there's a number of houses involved in the project um that are existing
houses some are being demolished uh to be developed with the subdivision uh some are scheduled to remain uh the the project as I said is in the RG2 zone uh uh higher density single family lots
are a conditional use in that zone subject to public sewer uh we're permitted to have 10,000 square foot lots 100 by 100 foot lots we we've met those proofs we are providing public sewer as well as public water but public sewer is a conditionally use standard uh
we're obligated to provide a traffic study which Mr ray has done and will testify and we meet all the other bulk zone requirements uh of the uh of the project uh the project had been approved if we if you can go to the next exhibit
please Anthony this is the overall overall uh subdivision map uh that's currently approved under the ordinance that was noted by Mr junko uh this this current approval contains uh 205 single family
residential lots uh 202 of those being market three existing houses to remain uh there was noted there was two other comp I want to briefly describe how the site worked uh a lot of this site started out as a general development
plan more than 10 years ago so there's a lot of planning that went into this site the zoning has been in place for 40 years but but a lot of planning went into into integrating this site into the surrounding road system uh and that remains unchanged with our proposed
amendment we have uh access we we have proposed access to East Veterans uh highway on the left South Hope Chapel Road to the to the top and then we connect to Denton Lane in the in the right or the south which then intersects
with Whitesole Road so the prop property will have access to all three county roads and Mr ray will testify that all three of those then road intersections surrounding us uh are all signalized and he'll he'll describe that in better detail and then we had with this
approval so everything is interconnected with those three county roads and then we had Whitlock which is a very narrow local road and u a key component of this project is and we'll we'll focus on this in a few minutes when I delve into the planners review but is to not have our
traffic utilize Whitlock that's been a key component of this project is to direct our traffic directly through our proposed road system to the county roads and not to Whitlock so so we're proposing to culde-sac the end of Whitlock so that the existing residents on Whitlock will not have any any
traffic from from our proposed uh project um secondary components of the project are we have the affordable units which are located um on this court which is
called Hunter Court down on the north western corner of the property uh that was a D3 conditional use variance that we obtained with that subdivision approval the the RG2 zone requirements have a 20% inclusionary affordable
housing component and we meet that we provide the 20% however the units are required to be provided in four unit maximum fourunit buildings and we obtained a D3 variance to construct those in 8unit buildings that remains unchanged the affordable housing area
remains completely unchanged as part of this proposed amendment i'll take the opportunity to address the question about the number of affordable units we are proposing 48 uh where 38 are required um
um and the the ra the reason the additional affordable units are for this is what's known as phase 1 through three of Swanborn there is a phase four which is located here and then there's a phase five which have not been in front of any any land use board yet they have not
been designed yet but there's future phases of Swanbbor and and those 48 units are intended to service those sections as well so the the 48 the additional uh 10 units are intended to service future sections of of of the
Swanborn project that the board has not seen yet mr in the original approval there were 48 affordable units correct yes all right so there's in the in your three phases there'll still be 48 but there may be additional in the
additional property that hasn't been correct for anybody else there's there's 48 affordable units proposed in this project but 38 are required to be built as part of this project and of course when you doing phases four and five you'll keep in mind that 20% set aside
well of course okay yes of course everything has to comply with 20% that's a conditional use standard that goes without saying um and if we need more we need more that our math so far is it meets it but that's our math that's not We're not here well thank you and that does exist
right we're not here trying to get approval for those spirit that's right uh so so so the affordable housing area remains unchanged secondly we have a uh a recreation area located um the the
area closest to East Veterans Highway is the existing un unoccupied but existing recreational improvements for the Maple Lake Campground there's a building there and some um other improvements and we're proposing to repurpose that into the
recreation area uh that remains unchanged as part of this project the recreation component was a key issue a key component of our GDP and our subsequent subdivision and uh I do note that it was a typo in our submitt caught by your planner that uh those recreation
improvements will be completed as part of phase one our documents inadvertently called it for phase three but that was unintentional so those will be completed in phase one and then lastly the improvements other than the subdivision we have a lot
that's being created in phase one adjacent to South Hope Chapel Road that uh is has a separate site plan approval for a house of worship uh the lot is being created by the subdivision there is no change to the house of worship their board that's
not part of this application that's approved and remains unchanged you say a separate site plan application though but that was that house of worship was part of the resolution for which you're seeking amendment you're correct i I probably should say it was a separate
plan yes it it's included in the same resolution but it was a uh we actually were asked to at the time make a separate application and then it was combined into the same resolution so there is a separate site plan for that we are not proposing to change that that is not part of this application that
remains approved as it was two years ago uh question was asked when when at what phase will that house of worship be built in we talked about phasing and I'll get into that in a few minutes but but the the intent is that that lot will be sold to a congregation and they'll
build it it's not part of the subdivision so it'll be built whenever the congregation deems it appropriate to build it once that lot sold it'll be under the control of the congregation who purchases it and they'll build it when they want to so the lot will be created as part of phase one and all the
all the improvements around it will be created as part of phase one the road off of South Hope Chapel Road the improvements to South Hope Chapel Road all of that will be completed in phase one but the lot will be developed by the House of Worship whenever they deem deem it appropriate
madam Chair yes if I might Mr bordon thank you for your testimony i I sincerely apologize for interrupting but I just want to make sure the board members are clear the subdivision and affordable housing portion of the project don't
rely on the house of worship site plan correct correct but the house of worship site plan relies upon the improvements that would need to be installed as part of the phasing plans for the residential portion of the site i.e
secondary access water sewer storm water management yes so if it was sold to a congregation tomorrow they couldn't start next week they'd have to build some of the infrastructure that's associated with the subdivision that's subject to the Z that's correct
application the improvement That's a great point the improvements needed by the house of worship will be completed in phase one but that doesn't mean the house of worship will be built in phase one it might be built in phase one two three that's up to them my my my point simply was is the house of worship isn't
standalone it requires the subdivision application for its infrastructure that absolutely correct thank you thank you so u I want to focus before I switch the u uh but now that this again this is the approved plan now we're going to get into the changes that we were forced to
make by Pinelands and I I just want to before I I turn the page I want you to focus on this area here uh and if you could turn to the next and last exhibit Anthony so this is the overall development plan that the uh that was submitted as part of the package and
here you see this area here uh this is Denton Lane here you could see this wetland area expanded right right here this is a what I consider an isolated pocket of wetland this is Canon Boulevard to our west and it's it's a very strange bit of wetlands that was
not deemed as wetlands by Pinelands when we we had a certificate of filing when we got the original approval i've never seen this happen before by the way I've been doing this for 40 years and this is the first time ever that I've had a certificate of filing with the wetlands verified and then when we when we
applied for for them to re do a final review of the subdivision approval they took a fresh look at the wetlands and deemed additional wetlands here and slightly more additional wetlands up in the front of the campground mostly in this location adjacent to Cannon
Boulevard so as a result we were forced to uh change the layout of the project in this in a central part of the area the access road to South Hopechip remains the same the connection to Denton stays the same uh
although the Denton lane extension changes here before it went straight across the bottom now it bends up and and then we did have to relocate the um the access road to East Veterans slightly to the east because of additional wet lane buffer in in that
area um as a result uh the amended subdivision that we have asked for this amended approval proposes 194 lots so we've lost 11 lots um the breakdown is 192 market and
two existing to remain uh I I would also note and this is testimony I need to put on the record because of Pinelanes uh they also introduced another item in their certificate of filing that we
submitted for this application u and that is fire hazard i don't know if any of the board members have heard that before i know the planning board has but for some reason they wanted me to testify to confirm that this site was not a high hazard forest
area in in Pinelands no it's not in in pineelands when you have more than a 100 homes being proposed you have to provide a 200 foot buffer to any adjoining forest that's high hazard so it's the opposite of a land use buffer normally a wetland buffer you're not allowed to
disturb it the concept behind a forest buffer or break is that you're supposed to disturb it to stop the forest fire from spreading and and the the testimony I'm putting on the record because they'll want this reflected in the in the in the minutes and they will read them uh and I've put this in writing to
them already so everything I'm saying I've already told them um is that there is no unbroken forest surrounding the property the entire area in fact if you don't mind Anthony go back to the first one uh I don't want to take too much time on this but this is really
important for Pinelands it's zoom in right here please Anthony uh what what you have is you have we're completely surrounded by by development on all all sides of us um obviously we have lakes i mean that tells you it's not forest
hazard but then we have this this forest here this is Canon Boulevard here so you can't see it but there's houses up underneath this canopy around Canon uh and and the areas that are not developed here that I'm pointing to inside the crook of Cannon are all freshwater
wetland which are not high hazard area as you can expect so u there is no high hazard forest is considered oak and pine forest uh kind of like what almost burned my house down in in November in some tavern road uh none of that exists
in this area so I have made the argument and I would ask the record to reflect that there is no high hazard forest uh honor surrounding the property and I think Mr bordon you had uh mentioned in the prior testimony in the prior matter that you were also a forester yes
i am uh you can go back to the third uh sheet please Anthony so all of the all of the proposed lots do comply with the uh with the requirements the 100 by 100 foot uh all the vone requirements the planner has asked for additional dimensional plans
to evidence that we'll provide those uh but um um obviously we're subject to the conditional use standards and all the lots must comply i want to go briefly through some of the key items particularly from the planners letter um
Anthony if you could zoom in where I'm pointing now uh in that area there's a there's just a couple of zoning uh comments I want to u answer precisely this area right here
Anthony yeah right there perfect thank you sir so this is the culde-sac of Whitlock and we have this lot 8.28 this road up here that we're proposing is called Mahogany and the question is is these two lots in particular lot 8.28
because it has frontage on two roads and the zone requirements require a minimum although it's 100 foot by 100t lot the minimum lot frontage is 80 ft so the question was is there 80 ft on any road and the answer is yes the frontage along
uh mahogany is more than 80 ft there is 50 feet of frontage on Whitlock the new culde-sac of Whitlock but we're not proposing to access that and in fact we would deed restrict access from lot 8.22 and lot 8.28 they're not permitted to
access they are double frontage lots or this one's but they're not permitted to access Whitlock so there will be a deed restriction in place to prevent that uh while I'm zoomed in here there was a good question a good comment about the fact that the
separation between Mahogany and the culde-sac is fairly narrow actually it's very narrow so what what can we do to cars basically jump in the sidewalk uh so we're proposing landscaping hedge and
tree landscaping in that area to basically buffer between those two roads so that the vehicles can't do that uh I should stay while talking about the roads i gota be careful i apologize can we just go through this one issue so
that I can come back later if you'd like or we can talk about it now no I appreciate it um does the Whitlock Avenue right ofway extend past and through to Mahogany Lane no okay so it stops somewhere yes on that map well the
the rightways will connect but the the obviously the sidewalks are separated i'm talking about the right of way so okay the existing right of way of Whitlock does it end before it gets to Mahogany or are we changing Whitlock
Avenue to Mahogany Lane within this site no I understand your question now the existing Whitlock rightway exting rightway runs across the and overlaps onto Mahogany so we we have a street vacation request currently into
the township council to vacate a few streets including Whitlock that portion of Whitlock those vacations are required for phase two of the project so So the portion of Whitlock that is currently overlapping Mahogany would be vacated
and replaced by Mahogany okay so on the map you show a proposed culde-sac at the end of Whitlock that the developer is going to Yes provide somewhere between that culde-sac and the right of way from mahogany is
sort of a no man's land in there correct correct what are we doing with that i think that would just become Right now we're showing it as part of lot 8.28 which I think is a bad idea i think that would just become part of the the rightways would combine my concern is that you're going to have
to deal with the board engineer and the tax assessor to make sure that you don't end up creating a lot east of Mahogany i understand i'm sorry i have a question on that mr peters is the part that
you're referencing currently part of the Whitlock rightway or is additional because if it's part of the Whitlock rightway and the request is going in to vacate the right ofway then typically it would go to the adjoiners my my concern
is as you see it on the plan Whitlock comes in and we we create a culde-sac right ofway and then a few feet away from that you see a curved mahogany right ofway what's in between those two lines that's still
the road that's still the right of way of Whitlock A it's got to be vacated and either enjoined to one of the lots or enjoined to a right of way right what I'm saying is that if you leave it there there'll be another little lot just
above that where Whitlock is a little triang 28 i see the other part i don't even see i'm suggesting as as part of the resolution compliance that the board attorney and the tax assessor will have to make sure we don't create
a either no man's land or a a triangular shaped lot that no one's going to own it's got to be owned by someone i I agree that was all thank you um if you can zoom back out Anthony
please uh next we have uh there is a question about one of the open we have we have open space was a huge part of this project um I I would note that the uh the open space because we have the
three lakes as well as we have substantial wetlands uh on to the uh south and then uh as well as the wetland area of course it was expanded uh by Pinelanes and the
uh the open space on the approved plan is 65 acres the act the open space with the proposed plan is actually 70 acres so it actually because of the wetland um primarily expands the the open space but that leads to the to the next
question in the planners review which is what is called uh uh there's a lot on the what we call the third lake which is the bottom of the site here there's no this is an existing lake and this is an open space lot and it's it's landlocked if you
could zoom in Anthony that it's it's landlocked from the residential lot so the question is raised by the planner is that that open space lot does not have any does not comply with the zone requirements i'm not sure it's required to i'll leave to the board planner to
advise the board yeah Madam Chair our concern simply if to make this board's decision appeal proof if it needs a variance I don't think it's a I think they can prove the hardship for the variance if we wanted to put this
little piece of land to get it out to some it doesn't really serve a purpose at the end of the day it simply doesn't have frontage on an improved street and under the RG2 zone requirements would require a variance i just want to make sure we're complete in the relief that we grant so that someone take an appeal
it's not as though we missed something thank you practical matter I'm sure Mr borgon can convince us that whether he puts a little lot line down that culde-sac between lots 107 and 109 or he just leaves it as an easement it serves the same purpose physically out in the
field correct so I I don't want to testify for the applicant i certainly don't want anyone to think I'm agreeing with Mr bordon this evening but I don't have any problem if if if they were simply to ask for variance relief that's the cleanest way of dealing with it yeah look I know my I know my place Ernie
um and that is absolutely correct so this lot would then require a lot frontage and uh uh well lot frontage variance uh because we have no frontage on a rightway it certainly meets all the other bulk zone requirements of width and depth and area the purpose of
obviously it's a lake so we want to keep that as open space but there's also walking trails through the whole project that remain unchanged from the original approval we're not changing it so that that is a hardship created we're we don't want to be penalized by providing open space we could extend the lot lines
and make it part of the lots but that would be a disservice to the homeowners association so we would ask for that uh D3 variance for just simply the lot frontage and easements will be provided for for the access from the uh from the residents
oh absolutely yes i mean it's not even a lot that we're developing it's an open space lot so certainly thank you uh next we have uh a comment from the planner on the uh affordable housing we have parking we did provide uh uh
again that that part of the project that site plan aspect of the project remains unchanged we had 96 uh spaces uh provided for the 48 units basically two spaces per unit we were not asked to provide guest parking at the time of our original subdivision he's he's raising
that question now i believe we can rely upon our existing approval we're not proposing to change that in any way but I I defer to the planner he is also asking for 15% of those spaces in the uh in the uh portable lot to be EV ready and we do
agree to comply with that um moving quickly uh I'm I'm going over key items of the planners letter um I should be identifying them by item number and I'll do that from this point forward but all the items that I'm skipping over and I'll make the
declarative general statement that we agree to comply in all respects with all of the comments of the letter really what I'm doing with these comments is just explaining things that he has asked for testimony on uh as you can tell there's no Bordon did you just testify
that you're willing to agree with all of the comments yes and that would that would that would apply to the Morgan engineering engineering comments as well while we're talking about that u then we move to item number Roman numeral 4 in the Remington Vernick letter uh under
subdivision issues items to be discussed item three uh he asked who will maintain the stormwater management uh features and that will be the the original approval had the homeowners association and that remains uh the same so we are not
proposing any change these roads are public roads um but the uh but the stormwater systems stormwater management systems are maintained and known by the homeowners association as is the open space and recreation and walking trails
uh I should also note I I skipped over this inadvertently but one of the other driving forces of of some aspect of the revisions is that uh this project was caught in the change to the storm water
management rules we were approved prior to the adoption or implementation of the green infrastructure rules but Pinelands has determined that we must comply with them so what we had is uh three storm water basins before we had three large storm water basins we now have I believe
it's 31 uh storm water basins so uh so the the requirement to provide discrete smaller basins for smaller drainage areas so that that is evident on the plan as well and has driven the layout to a to a certain extent some of the
basins are located on residential lots easements will be provided in all cases they will be maintained by the homeowners association uh item six in the letter questioned uh some structures in the u
in the affordable housing area we have again we have not changed that um do we have parking areas in the homeowners association one of the one of the comments from the from the zoning board at the time of the original approval was where do where do we store
bikes and toys um so we provided eight sheds it's one shed per building remember they're eight unit buildings and they're located behind the refues enclosure at the head of the parking so that's those are in the original approval those are not being when again we're not changing that at all we're not
changing the affordable housing area uh item eight asked for letters of consent there were apparently in the file there were three property owners all of the letters of consent were provided we have them there's multiple property owners on the property uh we can provide them but the board secretary
uh has we've we've provided them over the past 15 20 years that we've had the project underway sorry okay I skipped over item seven uh did question Denton Lane i mentioned that we're we're connecting the intersections
at these Veterans and South Hope um and and John will testify to that uh but on Denton Denton intersects of course currently with Whitesville and Denton Lane is being and we're connecting to Denton the Denton Lane between our connection point which I'm
pointing to on A3 extending to Whitesville that is being approved improved by a pro a subdivision at the corner called Denton Pines uh Denton Pines is an existing approved actually we're preparing to file the map as we speak um that subdivision is also in the
RGT zone has same zoning but that subdivision has the obligation under its approval to improve the intersection of Whitesville and Denton and the length of D so so we're relying upon that as part you know that has to be built as part of
Madam Chair yes i don't want to make this last any longer than it has to my concern is that this application now is relying on the Denton Road connection i think the board needs to see in this plan or in this
approval something affirmative that says if they want to go and they get to the phase of the project that requires Denton Lane to be improved that they're going to do it relying on someone else
this whoever Denton Lane is isn't an outside agency they're a developer i don't want to get in the middle of whether this applicant's going to build it or someone else is going to build it um quite frankly if that approval is good I'm not sure why it isn't built now i understand quite frankly it needs to
be part and parcel of this approval because now they're saying that they're not ending Denton Lane on their property in a culde-sac they're making a connection so at whatever point they need it in this project there should be plans and
approvals commensurate with that that's my only concern i don't necessarily disagree with what Mr bordon said i'm just trying to protect the approval that will be given for this application which now calls for that they want to rely upon it it's fine but they they can't
when they decide to go build the phase that requires Dent and say "Well Mr smith's supposed to go build that we we we can make those plans we can show them as supplementary plans to this file we can comply with what Mr peterson
ask i also want Mr bordon whether you or Mr junko that whatever portion of whatever phase of the plan requires this if you guys need to go first you need to build it you can't ask the town to go ask Mr smith to build something i understand i understand that would not
be required before phase two but but we understand thank you Mr bordon you know the board normally takes testimony till 10:30 about how much longer you're going to be show respect to the public as well give them about five minutes if that's okay okay i'll be very quick
uh quickly under item B of subdivision issues there's no development proposed in wetland buffer areas item eight uh item 13 uh there's a question of lot eight on Whitlock that will be permitted to access that's an existing lot uh Joyce that's not part of the
project u as I testified before on item 14 lots 8.22 and 28 those are the two lots that have double frontage on Whitlock Culdeac they will be derestricted and they will be not permitted to access Whitlock uh item one of traffic
circulation notes that Mullen Street was not included in the street vacation request we'll include that that was an inadvertent omission we did talk about item two planting the hedge and the trees between the two rightaways we'll we'll work out the rightway limits with the tax assessor as
suggested um uh under the trees the site is not subject to the tree ordinance there is a tree settlement agreement that applies to the project uh so the the removal of trees is guided by that not the not the tree ordinance mr bordon was that tree
uh settlement agreement provided yes uh I don't believe so but I'll I have you provide Could you do so i will actually have a copy with me but uh recreation I said will be placed in phase one um uh there's no change to the uh
recreation open space is increased um we do request the opportunity to have a temporary office trailer that was noted in item nine of general comments and that that concludes basically my testimony so basically the project has amended very slightly to reduce the 11
units lots to comply with the Pinelands wetlands statutes and as well as the Pinelands stormwater management requirements mr b I'm not sure if I missed it but I thought you were going to explain the discrepancy in the affordable units for the phasing i I
thought I did so So the additional we have 38 required for this project right the additional 10 that we're proposing are for phases four and five you know I I got that that wasn't my question okay then I misunderstood so when Mr junko went over the three phases he said phase
one uh was going to be uh 70 market rate eight affordable phase two was 62 market rate 16 affordable phase three was 60 market rate 16 affordable so that brings
it to 40 affordable well that that's then we have to work that's too many yeah we have too many affordable in that phasing breakdown you have too many or No actually it's not because because of our mult multi-unit buildings we can't build part
of a building that's why the number is the way it is are you are you proposing to build 48 no we're proposing to build 40 for this project okay so you're trying to build 40 for this project so the number is not 48 it's 40 correct okay so there there
is there is a 40 there is an extra building that's part of the site plan but will not be constructed as part of this project it'll be developed later when we do the other phases so that has to be amended from the original approval then correct no I I believe that's consistent with the original approval i
think the other original approval was for 48 it is we are proposing 48 but I thought you just said you're only going to build 40 proposing and building are different things we're getting approval for 48 we're building 40 okay
yeah please there are 48 units 40 are required for this portion of the project the eight are for the remaining two phases and they will be built consistent with those two phases and the 40 will be built for this
project the site plan will remain the same mr mr junko given the time I will take a look at that existing approval i I have some I'm a little troubled by that proposal it's spelled out in the resolution that we already have so I
think we should all read that together i'll take a look at the resolution you already have well let me know i'll be happy to uh help you with that thank you okay so uh Ian any uh further comments no if there are no questions from the
board I'll call John Ray we know that you would love to get done tonight Mr junko but the the the pacing is way off here so what we're gonna do Madam Chair can I go first
yes mr bordon or I are on a roll this evening so Mr bordon just so you're clear the lot dimensions aren't on these plans correct yes correct and you're asking for preliminary and final this evening correct yes just want make the board to understand that when they put the lot
dimensions on if marker or I find that there's a problem with it they e they have to come back here so we're not approving the lot layout because we haven't they're not dimensioned so they haven't been checked okay mr
bordon either because we were trying to move quickly or or perhaps it was a misstatement you had indicated in your testimony this evening that all of the access points are signalized that's not correct no I meant the want to make sure the surrounding road count
six new board members don't know anything about the project i know we're in a hurry and I don't want to necessarily leave it to Mr ray because you know more about the county improvements than Mr ray might yes yes so could you just go through where the signals are going to the access points and the nearby
intersections so you can describe what county improvements are being done along the property's frontage please absolutely thank you so as I said we have we're surrounded by three basically inside a triangle of three county roads you have Veterans South Hope Whitesville
those three inter those three existing intersections of Whitesville and South Hope south Hope and West East Veterans and Whitesville and East Veterans are all existing signalized county intersections our proposed intersections at Veterans and South Hope are not
signalized left turn lanes will are provided in and out of each uh of each of those proposed roadways and I I would note that that our project has been approved by the county planning board including the striping and improvements
to those two intersections with the left turn lanes and the county has reviewed and approved the house of worship as well that's correct that's included in the approval that's all I have for Mr bordon i'm sorry it has or has not been approved by the county has been okay that's all I have for Mr bordon's testimony this evening thank you thank
you um so at this time we're I'm sorry are there any questions for Mr uh given the time we're going to open it to the public um because they've sat here waited all this time if anyone would like to come forward and then uh
so if there's anyone who'd like to come forward and uh make any comments regarding what you heard this evening your testimony for Mr junko or Mr i'm going to swear me in again or no yes okay do you swear the testimony you'll give to this board is the truth and nothing but the truth yes and would you
please state your name and address no do you have a note here that into the microphone please i'm sorry okay i can't hear your microphone okay do you have a note here that the Pine Lands has not uh verified or accepted
some wetlands delineations it's on the map there they've accepted our wetlands delineation yes they have oh so that map has to be updated no this this map that's on the screen now that wetlands has been approved by Pinelands okay so
but that's what it says right on your map i don't understand are you referring there's a note on the map that says there's no disturbance the wetlands is that what you're referring to well I guess it was on another map but it it it says something like the Pine
Lands Commission has not verified the I think that was the original plan no I I believe what the gentleman is referring to is there's notations on the map east Veterans and South Hope are the boundary of Pinelands right the opposite
the opposing side of the road in both cases is not in Pinelands so there's a note here that says these wetlands basically are not verified but they're offsite they just it doesn't mean anything it's a note because Pinelands has no jurisdiction over them i don't
know why they feel the need to make me put the note on there but I don't you know I look at Mr breie because he understands okay you know I was just reading English i understand but but they but that but
they've approved the wetlands that affect our property the note I I read is not correct everything's been approved the wetlands have all been approved on the site yes okay now uh one thing I want to uh say to the
um the board is that thank goodness for wetlands and and because the wetlands this could have been a two or 300 home uh development and the second question I have for you is um where are the
children going to play well we have the recreation area up in the the the East Veterans side of the project and we have all the substantial open space with walking trails and the lakes and and areas around that so okay
so there is a a designated recreation area there yes there is and how big is that it's approximately uh I'd say a quarter acre in size yes okay now next thing is there a u a homeowners uh
association building or community building no no okay so I I'm I'm just saying that um these high densities housing they they they need uh someplace to congregate
well we have the approved house of worship that's located on on Well that's not a substitute for the community building that that's the existing clubhouse for the former campground and that's the area that we're repurposing for
recreation okay so there's no uh like community building where they can have functions or no meetings well I would say that's a problem because with that many homes and that many people they need a place to go and
u all I got to say is I'm very happy about the wetlands because that's that many less homes that's going to be built high density is no good all right thank you thank you is there anyone else wishing to come
forward to make comments about what you've heard this evening in Mr bordon's testimony seeing no one else come forward we're going to go ahead and close public session gina do you want to find the date for them to come back anything to be carried is to June 18th
or July 16th per June 18th or July 16th the June date please june 18th no additional notice required june 18th no notice no further notice to be carried from here and at that hearing I would expect the only Can you speak to
the microphone please hope it's on june 18th no further notice and we would uh basically only have the testimony of John Ray i would anticipate that that is in the uh 15 to 25 minute range max
thank you five i hear giving it a little leeway for questions mr ray was holding up a hopeful hand okay thank you thank you thank you all