Test test test. I felt it felt that Remember when you took notes too fast when you read up in the footnotes? That's me. We're going to call this meeting to order. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. the regular meeting of the Jackson
Township Land Use for uh zoning board. Notice of this meeting was duly posted on the bulletin board and municipal clerk's office and advertised. >> Can you hear me now? >> Okay. This is a regular meeting of the Jackson Township zoning board. Notice of
this meeting was dually posted on the bulletin board in the municipal clerk's office and advertised in the official newspaper of the township of Jackson on before January 1st, 2026 as required by the Open Public Meetings Act. >> Thank you. So, I'm going to take advantage because you just saw what
happens. It's very, very difficult to hear and hear. So, if you do come to the podium, please speak clearly and loudly because it's very difficult. We have this behind us. So, I could barely hear her as badly as you could hear. So, if you could just remember that as we go through the evening. Uh, roll call, please. Kathleen.
>> Mr. Martins. >> Yes. >> Miss Rosal here. >> Mr. Tremor here. >> Miss Cusano, here. Mr. Seleia here. >> Dr. Hoffstein here. Miss Bradley >> here. >> Okay. I have a a resolution for this
evening. Miss Leu. >> Resolution number 202609. Resolution of the zoning board of the Township of Jackson County motion state of New Jersey granting bulk variance approval on property located at 68 South Cooksbridge Road, block 12912, lot 4.
I need a motion and a second, please, to approve the resolution. >> Motion to approve. >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Martins, >> yes. >> Mr. Tremor, >> yes. >> Miss Cusano, >> yes. >> Mr. Seleia, >> yes. >> Dr. Hoffstein, >> yes.
>> Miss Bradley, >> yes. >> Okay. I have minutes for several meetings for March 18th, April 1st, and March 4th were both cancelled. So there those uh vouchers will be considered later. So we have minutes for March
18th. I need a motion and a second, please. >> Motion. >> Second. >> Roll call, please. >> Mr. Martins, >> yes. >> Miss Rosal, >> yes. >> Mr. Tremor, >> yes. >> Miss Cusano, >> yes. >> Mr. Seleia, >> yes. >> Dr. Hoffstein, >> yes.
>> Miss Bradley, >> yes. Okay. Now, on to the vouchers. I have voucher for this evening's uh secretary from the township of Jackson in the amount of $175. I also have for 41 and 34 in the amount
of $75 each. Do I need a motion and a second to pay the vouchers, please? >> Okay, >> second. >> All right, we've had a motion to second. Roll call, please. >> Mr. Martins, >> yes. >> Miss Rosal, >> yes. >> Mr. Tremor, >> yes. >> Miss Cusano, >> yes. >> Mr. Seleia, >> yes.
>> Dr. Hoffstein, >> yes. Miss Bradley. >> Yes. >> Do we have any announcements for this evening? >> I have no announcements. >> Okay. So, we're going to go ahead and move forward with swearing in of our professionals. >> Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the
board? >> I do. >> Just please state your name and position for the record. >> Gina Tumalo, zoning officer. >> Thank you. Thank you. I do not believe we have I know we're not having executive session. I do not believe there are any matters for discussion this evening.
Okay. And no administrative approval. So we are going to move on to application number well application number one was withdrawn. Uh they're going to construct the fence according to their prior approval. So we're going to move on to application number two to Ferris Cayam Inc. You use youth variance 3551. Miss
Jennings. >> Thank you. Good evening. For the record, I'm Donna Jennings from the law firm of Wend Goldman and Spitzer. As the board is aware, the applicant is here this evening seeking a D5 density variance and related bulk variances to the construction of a single family
residence at a density higher than permitted on property located at Castville Road and identified as block 3601 lot 2 on the township's tax maps. The property consists of approximately 17.055 055 acres and is situated in the
residential R3 zone. By way of background, in 2021, the planning board granted preliminary and final major site plan approval to permit construction of a house of worship on the property. In 2024, the planning board granted the
applicant an amendment for preliminary and final major site plan approval by resolution 2024-17 to permit the construction of a private religious school for 140 students on the property. That approval is still valid and they have actually started doing
site improvements at the property. The applicant however now proposes in lie of the school to create 15 lots on the property ranging between 417 acres and 2.13 acres for the purpose of improving the property with single family
dwellings. The lots are proposed to be identified as lots 2.01 through 2.15. 13 of the lots will each contain one single family residence and the two remaining lots would be designated as storm water management lots. The
applicant also proposes to construct a new street connecting to Castville Road. Single family residents are permitted in the R3 zone, but at a density of one unit per three acres because the applicant proposes densities which range between one unit per 0.75 acres and one
unit per 2.13 acres. The applicant is seeking a D5 density variance. Uh we believe that the record will show that the applicant satisfies both the positive and negative criteria for the granting of the D5 density variance. As we more thoroughly discussed by the applicant's professional planner, the
positive criteria satisfied because the character of the surrounding area is residential consisting mostly of single family residences and zone for single family residential use. In particular, residential developments adjacent to the property and situated on needed drive
consist of residential lots with lots dimensions equal to or smaller than the smallest lot size that the applicant proposes. The applicant also satisfied the negative criteria because the application will continue the residential character of the neighborhood at a density and lot size consistent with the lots in the
immediate area and therefore will not be a detriment to the public good or impair the purposes of the master plan of the zoning ordinance. Significantly, again, in 2024, the planning board did approve the private high school for 140 students, which would constitute a more intense use of the property than the
proposed single family residences. The applicant is also seeking various bulk variances from ordinance section 244-46D with respect to minimum lot area, minimum lot width, minimum lot depth, and minimum lot frontage as delineated
on the variance plan. And as we more thoroughly identified by the applicant's engineer pursuant to the price vimei case, the requested bulk variances would be subsumed if the board were to grant the devariance. The applicant is bifurcating this application pursuant to
the municipal land use law NJSA455D-76B and they would come back and seek site plan subdivision approval if the board were to grant the Dvarian. Um in addition the applicant had identified some additional deviations with respect to front yard setback and
minimum sideyard setback but that was for purposes of just giving an idea of what the prop might look like. But those variances are not actually seeking this evening because they don't actually have specific um residences that they're going to do. They just had put in uh
standard um footings and did an estimate of the largest house that they think could go on the property, but they would come back if they were granted the devariance with more specific requests for setback variances. In support of the application, the applicant will present the testimony of the following
witnesses. Elliot Halpert, the applicant site engineer, sitting to my left, John Ray from Mcdana and Ray, the applicant's traffic engineer, and Andrew Janu, the applicant's professional planner. And just as a matter of recordkeeping, the applicant is in receipt of the following reports from the boards and its
consultants. We have an engineering review letter dated March 27th, 2026, and the planners review letter dated April 1st, 2026. So, with that, I'd like to call up our first witness, Ellie Halbert. Have him sworn in, and we can begin our testimony.
>> You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board. >> I do. >> Please state your name. Spell it for the record. >> Eric Halpert, E R I C H A L P E R T, Licensed Professional Engineer and Planner. I have testified before this board and I'll be providing um
professional engineering testimony this evening. >> Okay, Mr. Herbert, this board accepts your credentials. Thank you. >> Uh while Miss Jenny's thoughts, could I just ask a few questions to clear up some of the things that you said? >> Sure.
>> Um you're asking for a D6 variance to construct >> D5 D5, sorry. To construct a 13 one family homes. Will these homes have basement? >> Yes.
>> Okay. Uh the township recently approved a new master plan. Did the applicant or the owner appear before the planning board to ask them to change the zone from three zone three R3 to zone R1?
>> No. >> Okay. So, uh in the review we have to assume that the planning board wish to keep this site to remain in R3. >> Understood. Okay. and your lots the
frontage depth and so on will eventually have to uh be uh our three zone requirements would be have to be met. That's the reason for the variances. >> Well, we would get a variance for those. That's what we're seeking
>> which you will ask at at the uh plan the next application also in uh the resolution 2024 from the planning board they had requested a certification by the local soil
conservation district of a plan for soil erosion and sent sediment control. Was this ever completed done? turned in. >> I believe so because they've actually cited started some site work there. >> I'm sorry. >> I believe so as they've started some of
the site work there. >> Okay. >> But I don't sitting here today can say with definitively it was handed in because I didn't see it. >> So if you get a copy of it, could you please let the board have have that? >> Sure, you can have a copy of that. That's not a problem. >> Okay, you could continue. Thank you.
>> Thank you so much. So Mr. Halpert, if you could, just for the record, uh, your office prepared the variance plan that we're going to review today. >> We did. Yes. >> Okay. And if you're going to rely on it, just mark it in for evidence and then if you could uh just describe the site and the area around the site to familiarize
the board with what the property is. >> Anthony, could you please bring up the aerial exhibit, existing exhibits? Thank you. And and um could you zoom? Thank you. This could be marked exhibit A1. This exhibit is an aerial exhibit exhibit depicting the existing
conditions, the surrounding um area and development with the subject property highlighted um in the center in the yellow. The property is located along Cville Road along the easterly side of of Cville Road which is a county roadway
near the intersection of Winterberry Anita. Um there is uh a residential development to the south of the property. The residential developments to the north and across the roadway. As mentioned earlier, the property is
currently undeveloped except for some clearing associated with a previous approval. Anthony, could you please bring up the um exhibit of the current approval? The first exhibit you had of the current approval.
And could you go to the second sheet? The purpose of this exhibit is just uh to bring to the board's attention the approval currently on record for the site. an approval from the planning board under um resolution 2024-17
to approve a school with a gross floor area of approximately 13,000 square ft serving 140 students with 75 parking spaces and 49 uh green bank spaces. The applicant is currently proposing to
develop the site with a residential development. Anthony, could you please go to the proposed aerial exhibits? Thank you. The applicant seeks to develop the
currently undeveloped um property 3601 lot 2 with installing a roadway approximately 790 linear feet of new road intersecting with Casville Roadway, a
county roadway. The applicant seeks to develop 13 single family buildable lots, two additional storm water lots. The site is constrained both to the west and
to the east with um wetlands. The wetlands there is a um an expired LOI on on uh the property. the applicant would need to submit to the D for a new LOI. As part of this application for the use
variance, the applicant did have the uh wetlands flagged by a wetland scientist and that was picked up on the plan. It is shown on the plan. Anthony, could you please um pull up the civil plans that were submitted? >> Excuse me. When will the LOI be
available for the board? >> The property as part of this uh the applicant is currently seeking only a use variance and as part of the site plan applica as part of the subdivision application, the applicant will submit and obtain an LOI.
>> Only problem is you're asking for a density variance and the board has to know how much of the acreage could be used for homes. You have a couple of homes which go right back to the repairarian boundary with with uh
septics right on almost on the border. So how can we do this without an LOI? >> I'm going to add to that if you see where the placement of the school is because I was on the planning board at the time. There was a lot of wetlands back there. That's why you couldn't go any further than the back of this
school. So, I I think you're going fishing without an LOI. I mean, you guys should really have this you're trying to break new ground here. You want us to give you what you want and then you'll see if you can get the rest. You're kind of putting it kind of
backwards. I I find it offensive. Well, actually, you are allowed to simultaneously be going for approvals. So it's not like you go to one entity first and then you come back to the other entity. It doesn't work that way. You and we have an LOI. It simply expired. We had it
reflat. >> You have an LOI for a school. Number one, it's not for It's not for the school. It's for the property. It doesn't go to the use. It goes to the property. >> But what I'm saying is you want us to change things to accommodate you, but
you don't want to take the extra steps to accommodate us and make it easier for us. Now he's supposed to make an informed decision without this. >> I'll I'll I'll I'll show you I'll I'll address this partially um regarding I'll I'll show you the plan where the
wetlands are flagged for further discussion. >> How old is the LOI that you have? >> The LOI was issued in 2020. So it expired what approximately one year ago. But there's been work on the on the land since then uh by the original owner. So
we don't know what changes could have been made or what encroachments. >> The applicant seeks a use variance and the applicant is comfortable with the wetland delineation and it it is to the risk of the applicant to have a use
variance that would not be able to be utilized. the applicant certainly is going to have to obtain an LOI and in terms of acquiring a use variance. The applicant um it it it it would be
sufficient to delineate in order to know the constraints we're working with and any approval would only be able to be utilized if the LOI is issued. If there if it turns out that the LOI is going to be issued showing greater constraints,
then the use variance would not be able to be utilized for that portion. >> But then you then you're going to come back to us with a hardship, >> right? It's it's kind of a game. >> No, no, no, no. You can't come back with a hardship. You >> Madam Chair, Mr. Peters. Yes. Um >> I just want to make sure that our
record's clear and I apologize if I'm jumping ahead of either Mr. Tremor or Miss Jennings. No, >> go ahead. The applicable section of the code is 2445C1A, which is part of the conservation overlay zone, which states that all applications for major site plan or
major subdivision approvals shall be required to submit a valid New Jersey D letter of interpretation or permit, which identifies all freshwater wetlands and wetlands buffers and transition areas on the property or properties included in the application before the
application can be deemed complete. So, I guess my my first question to Miss Jennings is is is the applicant simply requesting a waiver of this at this point. >> Well, I don't even think we need to because it's only required if you're actually filing for subdivision or site plan and we're seeking a bifurcated application for use variance only. So,
it's not required under the ordinance and quite frankly under state law you would just have this application if it was approved subject to any and all outside agency approvals. That's how it works. I think I think the application itself is a little confusing that might
be because it's it's a use variance but you've also identified variances for every single individual a lot. >> Yeah. Because we wanted you to see the whole picture. >> So is it >> but if you read the application and you look at the notice that we filed and what I said in the opening statement was we were seeking a bifurcated application
pursuant to NJSA455 uh D as required or as permitted under the state statute. And so we're seeking the density variance and which would include if you we was the 15 lots obviously lot width and lot depth and
lot frontage >> is delineated here but we're not seeking subdivision approval. >> So this could all change all of >> it could all change. >> So it's just the use variance but the number of lots >> correct >> these are potential lot sizes. >> Correct. >> Thank you.
So in in addition to the LOI, uh one of the things that I went through and saw is an environmental impact statement is required under 244189. And the way the ordinance reads there is you have to have it
when you're coming before us for the site plan, but but the zoning board has the right to ask you for it prior to coming before it. So my question
>> Yeah. So in the planning board application, we submitted uh EIS. So there has already been one on file in the town. >> And when is that from? >> From the 2024 application. >> Have a copy.
>> Turn the mic on the checklist provided by the applicant. They requested a waiver for the environmental impact statement. So I think now might be a prudent time for you to put on the record your justification for the waiver and maybe the board can vote on that waiver if the board is not in support of that waiver.
I would say that the application would not be complete and would have to come back after submitting an EIS. >> Took my comments. I was going to say what I read stated that you were asking for a waiver, but you're saying you have one from 2024, >> right? We would just update it for this application if the use variance was granted as part of the subdivision
application. Wilder, what do you think of that? >> My my concern is that the LOI is expired. So, if there was a valid LOI and the EIS was previously accepted by one of the boards in >> Excuse me. >> We applaud after every comment. It's
going to be a very long night. So, let's just let everybody get through the testimony. We know how you feel. Thank you. And let me just say, I hope you all recognize we're all residents up here other than the professionals. So, we're this means something to us as well, and I understand you all have something you want to say, but we will never get to
you if we continue to applaud. So, I'm not trying to be rude, but just try to understand. Thank you, Mr. Wilder. >> So, again, my concern would be the fact that the LOI is expired. Um, I appreciate that an EIS was previously prepared, but under sort of different circumstances, but I certainly want to
allow the applicant to make their case for that waiver, and then the board can decide if if they deem it appropriate. >> Thoughts? >> I agree with Mr. Wilder. It's it's up to the board's discretion whether or not to grant a waiver. >> Mr. Martins, >> yeah, I just I I guess I had a question
for our legal here. Um, it seems like every objection that we hear, the answer that comes back is, well, that's going to be part of the site plan today. The only thing they're asking for, and it's not a small thing, is the density
waiver. You know, whether you have a LOI, everything else laid out, that doesn't play a factor here. Is that right? Because that's the answer I keep getting that I keep hearing. Right now they're just here for the density variance and any other variances
that would be thought would be part of the other application. I think the board is stating that >> the environmental impact statement in the LOI would be useful in determining whether or not to grant >> a density variance for this particular property. >> Okay. I I just want to make that clear
because I keep hearing that well that'll be part of the other >> um discussions a little trouble hearing with the noise in back of us. So are you agreeing that that we should give a waiver until decide >> Mu if I go ahead. >> No I I don't have an opinion about
whether or not you should give a wisd >> Madam Chair. >> Yes Mr. Peters >> again I just want to make sure our records clear we keep jumping between the LOI and the EIS. So I apologize but to make the record clear the requirement for an EIS is under 244189
and it indicates in subsection A the general provisions under comment 2B and I think one of our board members made reference to it. Any variance applications to the zoning board of adjustment not involving a site plan or subdivision application shall not
require an environmental impact statement unless specifically requested by the board. The zoning board of adjustment shall inform the applicant regarding any information that may be required. Thank you. >> Hold on, Mr. Peters. Let me ask you this.
to make an informed decision whether to move forward. Don't we need to know the LOI any environmental impact studies? As much as I I'd love to see the wetlands overlay, but I mean, how are we
supposed to make an informed decision if we're putting the court before the horse? >> I think the applicant's entitled to be heard as to what they've provided and what their reasons for not complying with that. Now, are the
board I always use this jokingly and it I understand humor doesn't show up well on a transcript, but you guys get paid the big bucks, you volunteers. >> Yeah. >> To determine whether or not you need that information to make an informed decision. >> Um, you had said before at the planning
board there was one, it's two years ago. It's it's outdated by a year or so. So to the extent that the board finds that information necessary at the conclusion of the applicant's presentation, say, "Listen, we'd like to have this information so that we can make an informed decision."
Um, I'd leave it up to the attorneys as to the the timing for that determination, but it's really up to you guys. There there's places in the ordinance where you're entitled to that information. um density variances
sometimes are referred to as sketches. So it is not a real subdivision or site plan. However, in 244189 for an EIS, it makes a specific recommendation, the zoning board having certain having the ability to request that information as
part of the process, not as an application completeness issue, but as part of the process and that's the reason I wanted to read it into the ordinance, so there wasn't this confusion about there's some things that are required for completeness in the conservation overlay zone as they're relate as they relate to LOIs,
different set of standards as it relates ates to what when an EIS is required. So I apologize for sort of part but I wanted to be clear on the record. >> That's why I asked that just just for that specific hold on one second >> and that's my point. I mean you have
an approval for a school which is one building. Now you want to shove 15 buildings that are bigger than the lots are supposed to have. So it's definitely a dramatic impact on everything. And I I I don't think it's fair for us to even
trying to comp contemplate how that works without you guys taking the extra steps to show us that this wouldn't be a bad idea. Instead, you're saying it's a good idea. Let's just go for it. And I I don't like that. >> Mr. Sele, sorry. Go ahead, Miss Leu.
>> Let Mr. Select go. And I would just say let's let them continue. I was just going to I was just going to say, you know, if you if you were following along what's going on in Jackson, the council this year has created a environmental commission again. They've got it running
up and up and running again. So, it is clear by the governor and body that they are concerned about the environment in this town now. So, I do not believe it is an extreme request to ask for this study to be
completed before we move forward. >> Well, it said there's no letter of no concern from the environmental commission. >> Correct. >> Well, first of all, it's not a completeness item that's been pointed out. We've been deemed complete and scheduled for a hearing. We're here. There are members of the public here.
We'd like to at least put our testimony on. When we're done, if you still feel like you need that information, we'll carry and we'll come back. But again, the application is complete pursuant to your own ordinance. >> I guess
>> let me state this let me state this as clearly as I can and Miss Lebloo correct me if I need to be. It was deemed complete by the prior engineer and from the zoning clerk because you submitted but you requested a variance which is up to the board. The board has a right, we
have a right to request that uh environmental impact statement. We understand we're we're hearing the discussion about the LOI. We're talking about the environmental impact statement. It's two years old. Have things changed? We don't know. Have things changed on that property? Have
things changed based on all the development around there? We don't know that. Hence the reason. And again, I think Mr. Tremor, you made a phenomenal point. We're talking about I and I know what the comeback is going to be. So, hear me out, please. A school was approved there by the planning board
because it is is a permissible use under the audience under the ordinance. However, this is the zoning board because this is not approved. This is not approved under the ordinance. The problem is you're now talking about putting more on there. Not one building, but 13 buildings, two storm water
basins. It's a different project. So although there's um an EIS from two years ago, is it still valid? So I do believe the questions and the request is a valid one. So the the issue becomes Miss Leoo and this I'm going to put you on the spot and I'm sorry. Do we move
forward and hear it and say at the end we can't make a decision without this information or do we stop it now get that and have them re what is the recommendation? recommendation would be to allow the applicant to put on their application and then if the board still feels like they need this information at
the end, then we would request and hopefully granted more time by the applicant either to provide the statement that you're looking for or they'll ask for a vote and then the board will vote at that time. So, I think we should just allow them to finish their application. Maybe they have all of the answers to
our questions and we can go from there. >> Mr. Wilder, Mr. computers. >> Um I still think um due to the checklist item number 56 which does require an EIS for the creation of more than seven lots and they had requested a waiver. I do
think they should start with the waiver justification from that checklist item and if we can get past that then we can listen to the application and then decide at the end. Jennings that >> Sure. We'll put on some testimony
regarding the waiver request. >> Excuse me. Regarding the uh waiver for the EIS, um the applicant did um walk the property. A wetland scientist did walk the property for this application to check
the current conditions and the wetlands flagging that is shown on the plan are current wetlands flags. Um they are not from the previous application. They have not been verified, but there was a walk performed specifically for this
application to check the field conditions. Um, and so the delineated wetlands flags are current. The applicant does request a waiver from providing an entire environmental impact statement uh in order to provide that by
the subdivision approval as the area of development is limited to only the area beyond any any um buffering from any uh C1 stream which is to the um west of the
property which is to the east of the property and any wetlands buffering which have previously been approved and therefore um providing an EIS at subdivision approval would be the applicant believes would be justified.
>> Can you point out the plan that you were referencing and have it pulled up so we can show that to the board? >> Yes, the plan on um Anthony could you go to the uh second sheets >> and Mr. Halpert, why are you doing that? When was that walk through? So we can have a clear record. Uh uh the
walkthrough was in the past several um I don't have an exact date. It was prior to this um survey. One minute. One minute. The survey was updated 910 2025. The survey was updated. The
wetlands had been placed there approximately two weeks prior to September 10th, 2025. >> Talking what, seven, eight, seven or eight months ago? >> Correct. This this this application was submitted several months ago.
you you don't have with you any kind of um proof of the person that walked through what his qualifications he or she qualifications are. >> We we do not do not have with me the qualifications. This was a wetland
scientist Duboce Associates. It is depicted on the on the um survey and that was submitted and on the existing conditions plan. >> Okay. And >> so it's a wetland scientist hired by yourself. Correct. >> That's how it normally works.
>> That's how it normally that's how it normally works. And then the D would have to verify that. >> Yeah, I know. We have traffic studies too with opinions and all the other stuff. My point is, would the state agree with that? >> The state would typically agrees with
what the wetland scientists that we with the Duboce delineated wetlands um flagging. Yes. Well, it's funny because I'm looking at the last three houses at the end of the culdeac and I distinctly remember that being all wetlands and you couldn't build anything back there. >> The the previous plan the previous plan
depicted wetlands completely to the rear of the property and there are no wetlands over there. There is a 300 ft buffer shown on our plans. So, not wetlands, but there is a buffer and the proposed houses are beyond that
buffering. That would be a separate from the wetlands. There's two constraints on the property. The wetlands and the FHA, >> but we don't have any overlays to prove that right now. >> We don't have the verifications. We have the wetlands depicted and the 300 foot
repairarian zone depicted on the plan. It has not been verified by the D. >> But when you did the school, there was an overlay. >> By overlay, do you mean that it was an >> where the wetlands were? the the the wetlands is shown on this plan. Um
Anthony, could you um zoom into you could zoom into this plan to the rear, please? >> Just Mr. Wilder, were you asking about the EIS or the wetlands? >> The I think a part of the EIS is the wetlands, but I'll note that while the wetlands are shown in the plan, there's no buffer shown from the wetlands.
>> The there's no there's no buffer shown from the wetlands, there's a 300 foot buffer shown greater than the wetlands. So, >> so what was the wetland buffer associated with the >> the anticipated the anticipated buffer with the wetlands is a 50- foot buffer >> and and that was
>> the previous was also a 50-ft buffer and that is still the anticipated buffer for this wetlands. Yes. >> So when regard sorry go ahead Dr. Austin >> you're planning on on putting in the septic systems right near the uh buffer. How close to
the buffer are they? Were they more than 50 ft away? >> The wet the septic systems are 300 ft from the top of bank and uh approximately 275 ft from the wetlands.
There's a 50-ft wetlands buffer and there is a greater restriction on the property than the wetlands namely the C1 buffering due to the stream. So the bigger constraint on the property uh to prevent development also depicted on the
plan is actually the 300 ft riparian zone. So Anthony could you just to be clear just I want to make sure that it's clear >> how close to the riparian boundary are the septic systems.
It is beyond the 300 ft riparian zone >> where that dotted line is. You're you're 300 ft away. >> There is a 300 foot separation between this line and and the um and the stream.
>> No, no. I think what excuse me I think what Dr. Hoffstein is asking that dotted line where the riparian buffer starts. >> How close is the back of that house to the bottom of the screen >> where the septic system septic system more importantly. Thank you.
Very angry man. That's bad. >> The septic system for lot 2.13 is approximately is approximately and is shown on the plan is approximately 10 ft beyond the 300 ft
riparian zone. >> And so the septic was within 10 feet of the riparian buffer. >> 10 feet from the three from the edge of the riparian buffer. That is correct. Yes. So if there's a failure on one of these systems, you're going to pollute
the whole riparian area. >> The applicant is restricted. Um >> that's environmentally sensitive areas also. That's it's we you have the uh um natural filtering system before
everything gets gets to the wetlands. So you I mean you're putting septic systems almost on the border there. The applicant seeks to to utilize only the developable portion of the property. >> I'm sorry. Can you >> I'm sorry. >> Only looking to use up to the developable portion of the property. So
my question then is back to you stated that you had a EIS statement that was two years old. I know you don't have it and I'm sure you don't know every detail, but are you aware of anything that has changed within that two-year period and any what was shown on that study?
>> I would not be able to testify to that study. So I guess the waiver that you're asking for, you're only going to put testimony on regarding the wetlands portion, not the EIS. >> The the the the justification for the
waiver is the wetlands was walked, the 300 foot buffer is being shown, and is going to be provided. No, we understand it's going to be provided, but I think the question we're all kind of struggling with, or at least some of us, is that you're talking a lot about the wetlands, and we appreciate that. But
that environmental study, which we have the right to ask for, what did it show two years ago? Has anything changed? Like what's the justification that we should give grant this variance, grant this waiver? The environmental impact statement discusses also generally would be
discussing other impacts such as um noise pollution. Um and we will have our and the the in terms of noise there would be less noise but the the justification from providing the environmental impact statement is the residential development is in some ways
a less intense development. there are certain less impacts and the property was walked by an environmental scientist and no changes were noted. The wetlands which were flagged were noted in the same area which is an indication of the
condition of the property and therefore um providing the EIS at the time of subdivision appro uh subdivision um submission would be appropriate. >> So I'm going to take exception with something you said. You said that it's a less intense use than the school. I'm
going to go back to what Mr. Tremor said. I I can't agree that it's a less intense use. Yes, there's a school. It's one building compared to breaking this into 13 plus the two storm basin lot. So, I without that information, I can't truly determine that it's a less
intensive use. >> Initially, you're talking about a school which had one septic system. Now, now you have 13 sept septic system. Yeah. Now you all you need is one or two people who don't care about cleaning them out periodically and you have a
problem. The whole thing would be completely different if you had water and sewer service to the area. But but it's not even not even close. >> Mr. Wilder, you any comments to our concerns? Yeah, I mean the with the
repairarian zone, how is the repairarian zone the 300 foot repairing zone line established? Did did you survey the top of bank of the nearby waterway? >> The nearby waterway was surveyed. The edge of water was surveyed. That was how the 300 foot riparian zone. >> Is the edge of water the top of bank?
>> That is not determined at this moment. At this point, >> okay, so the repairarian zone could still move. >> It could move slight. It could move slightly. Yes. >> Yes. So you you made a statement that an environmental scientist walked the the lot. Do you have anything that he had he
prepared that said there is no change to the lot at this point? >> We we have the wetlands that were flagged that that's what we have. >> So it's immaterial that he walked it because we don't have any
confirmed knowledge of what he saw. >> Correct. the the intent was not to provide an environmental impact statement at this moment. >> Yes, Mr. Ros. >> So if a variance was granted for the density to create the 15 lots and then
on the EIS it's found that only a smaller usable lot is allowed. Are they they have is the 15 lots is what they're because if we approve that
are they going to build 15 lots on a shorter or it has to be changed to what is allowable in that space. >> I would answer but I'm going to defer to Mr. Wilder >> or it's kind of a legal question so I think I would answer it. I would say no
because there's all the bulk variances that go with the density variance and so we wouldn't be entitled to it, right? Because we were asking for specific lot width, frontage, depth. If the wetlands are in the way and you can't create those lots, you couldn't then squish
them down to make them even smaller. We're asking for specific minimum lot areas with each of them, specific minimum frontage, minimum width, and lot depth. >> But then, aren't you asking for the subdivision? I mean, I thought this was >> So, we're not asking for the subdivision, >> but you're asking for specific
parameters for each of the lots >> for the bulk variances. Yes. >> And which if that there was a change in the freshwater wetlands line or the buffer line, then you wouldn't be meeting those. You wouldn't be able to do it. >> So, this is not just for the D5
variance. This is for the D5 variance and the C variances. >> Not no not the C variance with respect to setbacks. That's what I told you in the beginning. the front yard set back, the rear yard set back, sideyard setback. We had laid
out what we propose as the footprint of the buildings >> and some of those have setback violations. Those we are not seeking. >> So the specific lots themselves as you've submitted will be in conformance with this plan.
>> Yes. So if you actually follow D3, how many lots would you actually be able to build on? >> Five. >> Five. >> So what makes you think that this is a good
idea to bend the rules for you? >> We thought it was a good idea because we had felt that the residents in the area before weren't really too happy with the school. And so the applicant thought about instead of rather than doing the school, what could we do as a tradeoff that would be the same economic return
basically? And so if you guys don't want the subdivision, we just build the school. >> We need to be able to hear and this is all part >> not like we're not building something. We're going to build the school if we don't >> come here. So the applicant just simply thought, well, let's go in for a use fair. If we can get the use fair, great.
We'll go forward with the application. But if it's not something that the board wants or that the residents want, we're just going to build the school. >> Well, you took care of my next question, so that's good. Um, I'm a little confused because I thought
the LOI was a prerequisite for completeness for an application like this. >> Not for you, sir. you. It couldn't be because you're can file for the LOI simultaneously with your application and then your approval
would be subject to securing the LLI. >> I beg to differ on that one. >> No, I that's the law. So, if that is on your checklist, it would be an illegal requirement. >> Completeness is not a jurisdictional issue. The application's been deemed complete. They're here with whatever they've submitted to us. Now,
>> it's not like >> I I agree with what you're saying, but I'm also trying to expose a little bit of a problem that we have with our system. >> Understood. >> Thank you, Mr. Wilder. >> Just to clarify, the uh checklist doesn't require an LOI. What it does
require is that the applicant show wetlands within the vicinity of the property. So, while they do show the wetlands, I agree they don't show an LOI, but Miss Jet Enings is correct in that oftentimes multiple applications are filed simultaneously, whether it's Ocean County Planning Board, Ocean
County So Conservation District to get all of the the plans out for comments from all those agencies. But my biggest concern at the moment is the fact that the repairarian zone has been approximated off of the edge of water, not the actual top of bank. I believe Mr. Hine mentioned how close these
septic systems were to the repairarian zone and now we are to believe that the repairarian zone could shift. Maybe it goes one way or the other way. Um but the fact that the repairarian zone could shift to the west would significantly impact at least the the lot on the south
side of uh lot four I believe. Um, so if that repairing zone were to shift 10 or 15 feet, they would have difficulty fitting a home with all the typical accessory development. >> I'm good.
>> Oh, okay. >> Keep going. Yeah, just let them Jennings. >> Yep. Go ahead, mine. Anthony, could you go back to um the uh second sheet of the set? This sheet is uh rep is um depicting the
overall site plan as mentioned earlier and as is being discussed. There are constraints both to the east and to the west. Um there are wetlands that are flagged to the to the east. There are wetlands um that were noted to the west
across the roadway. They are not shown on the plan. The anticipated buffer is a 50- foot buffer and would not be impacting um the property. The top of bank as noted is approximated from the edge of water
and the applicant is comfortable that there would be room to um develop these two properties. But it is noted that the um repairarian buffer is only from what is noted as the edge of water. The applicant seeks to
install a roadway approximately 79790 linear feet to create 15 lots. Two of them to serve as storm water lots. The storm water lots total approximately 1 acre.
13 single family dwelling uh buildable lots. The applicant seeks to develop the each individual lot with homes totaling a foot uh 9,000 square ft of gross floor area, 3,000 square ft
footprint, twostory dwelling with a basement. The applicant would be providing six parking spaces within the driveway. the applicant does not have um individual
floor plans at the time of subdivision plan approval. Should the board grant a use variance, the applicant may provide garages, the applicant would ensure that the parking requirements are met.
The homes depicted are for 10 bedrooms which would have a requirement of six which would have a requirement of six parking spaces and there is sufficient space within the driveway to provide that.
The applicant would be seeking to install there is no public water or sewer. The applicant would be seeking to install a septic system, individual um septic system for each home. The board typically would be requesting to provide
the special amphidrome system. And if the board would be granting approval, the applicant would agree to a condition um to provide the special Pinelands septic system, the amphidrome system for better treatment of the um
of the sewer. The applicant would agree to install a dry hydrant system pursuant to what the fire official typically would want. There is no public there is no public water available in the event of a fire. A
tanker trunk would a tanker truck would be needed and per um the fire official, a tanker truck would have easier access along the main road and a dry hydrant system can be installed and coordinated with the fire official should the board
wish to have that installed. I'll go through some of the comments. Can I just um stop you there just for one second to stay on the uh the homes? This supposed to be two and a half stories high. >> Correct. >> Um what's the half?
>> I'm sorry. >> What is the half? Two stories. I get what's a half a story? >> Is it a basement? An attic? What? What is it? >> Why? Two and a half. >> There's a b two and a half is is attic. Attic. >> Attic. Okay. So, the basement that you mentioned before will have a basement,
right? >> Yes. and and like I guess all of it is going to be underground. No above ground basement, >> you know, outage >> typ typically there would be four steps up. The applicant does not have specific architect plans at the moment.
>> Okay. All right. >> Are there any plans to use the finished basement for bedrooms? The 10 bedrooms is the total of the entire of the entire >> So you may have bedrooms in the
basement. >> The applicant would potentially have bedrooms in the basement. Yes. >> And >> no outdoor access to the >> water level in the area accommodate a basement. >> I'm sorry. >> Does a water level in the area
accommodate basement? >> Could we need Excuse me. We need everyone to be quiet. We can't talk because we can't hear. What Miss Dr. Hoffsy asked you was with the water level in the area, would that accommodate a basement >> since you're stating there would be bedrooms potentially
>> there the at the time of a subdivision more more soil soil testing would be performed. A basement typically would be four or five steps up and only about five to six feet down. six feet down and
bedrooms would be proposed if the water table would allow for that. >> All right. So, I just want to be clear for the record. I want to make sure I understood you. You're talking so the basement would be a walk out would have five or six steps up. So, it's not going to be completely underground.
>> Correct. And when I say it would have I don't mean that there are outside steps. The the board typically would not want outside steps. I just mean that the house is typically would be raised. Gotcha. >> You would be walking up to walk. >> Well, there's gonna be no exit from the basement. >> No exit from the basement. No.
>> No. >> Also, uh there'd be any plans to put a kitchen in the basement. >> There's no plans right now. >> Well, the Jackson code does not permit kitchens in the basement. Just
>> We're going to comply with the building code. >> I'm sorry. >> We will comply with the building code. No kitchens in the basement. >> Miss Jennings. Mr. Hopper just said something. I just want to make sure I understood you. I'm sorry. I want to make sure I understood what you said. You said that there would be potentially
be bedrooms in the basement, but there's no walk out. There's no way out from the basement. That's that doesn't meet code. How do we do that? >> I meant that there are no steps there. There would be egress windows per code, but the board doesn't like doesn't wish
to have separate walk out entrance from the from the basement. with um you mentioned in the fire department. Let's go back to the school. If you remember correctly, the fire official wanted a dry hydrant with a
hookup hydrant at the street and then up at the building a 20,000galon sistern with another hydrant and a commercial well to fill it upon uh certain alarm settings to to fill it.
But now you just want to circumvent that. You you can't just throw a a pipe in the ground, hook hydrants to it, and say, "Okay, we're going to bring a tanker truck and magically put fire out." We have a major problem in this town with no volunteers.
We have a major problem of not being able to afford at this present time to hire enough firefighters to properly protect this town. So maybe you can explain to me where you think these tankers and all this water is going to come and how fast. The average response time from the firehouses are anywhere
from 16 to 18 minutes. You want to build a massive 10-bedroom house with no basement exit. How is anybody supposed to get in or out? How's anybody supposed to protect it? And now you want to build McMansions on 1acre lots. If the wind's blowing the right way, you could have
three, four, five of them going in 20 minutes. Maybe explain this to me. >> This area is not served by public water. And there are there are multiple residential developments and the applicant would seek to do what is what is most feasible for.
>> But if you notice all the other neighborhoods, there is a big distance between the houses because they follow D3. So I'm just saying that you you want to paint a simple picture here and this is not a simple project. This is a nightmare. >> Well, Anita Drive right next door have
lots that are even smaller than the ones that we're proposing. >> And when was it built? went D1. >> They're still there. You said there was nothing in the area similar. And in fact, this is consistent with the surrounding residential area.
>> I can play on words with just like you. That's D1. This is D3. This is 2026. >> It can mean R. >> Okay. >> I'll stick with the fire department. You can play with the alphabet >> and do it. I'm sorry. And then do any of those home Do any of those homes?
We need you to remain quiet, please. We will never get through this. >> Any of those homes in the area in the R1 zone have 10 bedrooms. >> And how many square feet are these homes approximately? I know you don't have
>> is depicted as a 3,000 square footprint is the footprint and there would be two stories in a basement. >> So, Miss Jennings, I'm going to piggyback off to what Dr. Hoffstein said. So, we're looking at 10 bedrooms and a 3,000 foot house. You said they're
similar to what's um surrounding. Are most of the homes surrounding uh 3,000 square feet? >> I said the lot sizes were similar or smaller. >> No, no, I'm asking. No, I'm I'm now asking as far as homes, are most of them in the approximately 3,000 square feet? >> I don't know how big the homes are.
They're not depicted on the tax map. The homes in the surrounding area based on Google Ma based on a drive and on Google maps are in the 1700 to 2,000 square footprint. They are also two stories. Some have basements.
>> Are you proposing two stories or two and a half stories? >> Two and a half stories. I'm sorry. >> So if you had a guesstimate what the overall square footage would be, 7,500 square feet. >> 9 7500 to 9,000 square feet. to go through the uh review letters
referring to the review letter from the board engineer dated March 27, 2026. six. As discussed, the survey depicts the currently located um flags for this
application. regarding the wetlands. Although the geo web shows the wetlands on our side of the roadway to the uh uh front in Cville, it is noted that the um LOI that is
currently on record did not note that and the wetlands that were flagged as part of this application are only across the roadway and this has been discussed at length. There is no current um LOI for the wetlands that were flagged and
this would be as a condition of approval. The wetland flagging would need to be verified by the D. But the applicant is comfortable with the depiction of the wetlands flagging both to the east and that uh the lack of to the west because that they are only
across the roadway. Regarding buffering and landscaping, the applicant would be providing with the subdivision. The application, the applicant would be um providing foundation plantings and street uh
street trees. Regarding buffering, the applicant would seek to leave in this heavily wooded area um a 10-ft strip of trees to remain between this subdivision and the surrounding uh development um as
as buffering. This is a residential development, not a commercial development. and if the board would be agreeable to providing a 10-ft strip of wooded area to remain as serving as a buffer between one
residential development and the adjacent residential developments. Parking is uh provided per a sufficient for a 10-bedroom sufficient for a 10-bedroom um house. C >> can I just um I'm sorry. I just want to
take advantage that you mentioned about the the wooded area, the buffer, right? Um I understand that there's no open space. You're not leaving anything for open space. I think I read where 10% should be set aside, but you're saying
zero. The applicant as part the applicant is not uh is seeking to not provide um open space if the board would agree if the board would want open space and to um the the applicant would be agreeable to
providing some open space and remove remove a lot. Um the application is for 13 buildable homes and it is greater than the um minimum 10 required by uh the ordinance to provide open space. a
small pocket park is not um so ut so um so utilized. It is noted that there is a township lot with lot number four is a township lot that is owned by the township. Um the township um uh owns
that lot. That's an area within within this uh development. Um the applicant would seek to not provide any open space. Um if the if the board would like uh would not be willing to grant that waiver, the applicant would be willing to provide open space. >> Okay.
>> And remove a lot. >> Right. But as part of this D5, you are asking also for the waiver of no open space. Correct. >> Correct. Okay. The application is seeking that waiver. Yes. >> Okay. I just want to make sure everybody's aware of that. Thank you.
You you still have uh 244 200A all residential developments with five or more dwelling units shall provide recreational facilities or the required open space which is 10%. So you want to waiver on all of that?
>> Yes. >> So a lot of kids on small lots in large houses. What do you expect them to do with their spare time? Just asking.
>> So, we're asking to go over the number of houses that are permitted on the R3. We want no open space and no recreation facilities. That's correct. regarding um the review letter dated April 1st from the board planner.
Anthony, can you please bring up um again the aerial exhibit existing depicted on the on the um aerial exhibit are the surrounding homes. Anita Drive consists of lots ranging from
greater than one acre approximately 1.3 acre down to approximately 6 acre with twotory dwellings that is to the south. There are residential developments likewise to the
north similar homes with approximately 1,700 to 2,000 ft² footprint. two family colonial style homes. The applicant is seeking to develop the currently undeveloped um property with
residential development. The applicant would need to would need to obtain LOI FHA verification. The applicant is seeking to install septic. Street lighting will be provided along with the subdivision application per the
code. The applicant would be providing landscaping. With the subdivision application, as discussed, the applicant would seek to leave a strip to serve as a buffer of the wooded area to the rear of all the of the properties and would seek to
provide foundation plantings and and and uh street trees. The applicant is seeking waiverss from providing the recreation and open space as well. >> Any additional Sorry, >> I just want to clear something up. You're saying the h each house is 3,000
square feet. Is that >> footraint? Okay. So, how many square feet is a house? Is it 3,000 plus 3,000 plus 3,000 for the basement? >> You're talking about 9,000 square meter house. >> Correct.
>> Compared to 1700 to 2,000 on the neighborhood you're comparing this to. >> The 1,700 to 2,000 was likewise referring to the footprints. >> But you're trying to compare a house that that could absorb three of those houses or four of those houses. the the
the adj the surrounding area has 1,700 to 2,000 square footprint houses which are typically typically two-story houses. Some have basements. So that would translate into approximately 5,000 square foot gross floor area. The
proposed dwellings are 3,000 square footprint over the three stories would translate into approximately 9,000 square feet of gross. >> Cite the address of which one is 5,000. I I mean, listen, I could have missed it. I'm human. I went through on Google
to see what the surrounding footprint uh not footprint, but the surrounding square footage. I didn't see 5,000. Can you provide me with one of the homes that was 5,000? >> The foot these are two family homes with a basement. So, so, so approximately 7
approximately 1,700 square footprint to 2,000 footprint over the three floors. And how many of them have basement living areas? >> You don't know. The basement living areas are you're like Mr. Dr. Hoffstein said, you're comparing apples to oranges
with no fact. Would um on on that topic on on the math would you see to me whether you're talking about the building footprint square footage of the building that roughly these houses that you're proposing will be double the size of the
ones that are existing there 5 to 10,000 right square footage if you do that >> area however you want to calculate it on average over time um >> you would agree double right we can agree on that >> yes Okay, I just put that on the record
too, please. >> Thank you, Mr. Seleia. >> Thank you. So, I guess let's start with did you did you prepare any alternative plans that comply with the permitted density >> plans were not submitted? The permitted
density is would be um approximately four to five acre or four to five lots. >> You didn't do any plans. >> We did not provide plans. Is there any engineering or planning constraints that prevent you from designing a compliant plan?
>> There aren't. >> Is the is the need for additional density caused by any physical condition of the property? >> No. >> Is the reason we're going after this density is the applicant prefers more
units, not because the site requires it. the the planner will provide the planning testimony and justification for the use variance. >> Okay, >> I'm good. >> Any additional questions, Mr. Hbert? >> Just a comment.
If this is carried and you come back with another plan, if it is, uh, I think you should consider taking some of these five 75 acres or those smaller lots and combining some of them and try to bring
as many at least up to one acre or or more. That may only give you an extra three home homes, maybe a fourth, but it would certainly be more more conforming if that was considered and eliminating uh
some of those that are that are close to sensitive areas. >> Additional questions, comments, Mr. Tremor, >> is there any plans for this to become an HOA controlled uh neighborhood? There would be an HOA formed to manage
uh >> and who would take care of the uh drainage basement. >> Correct. >> Yeah. HOA would be taking care of Okay. >> and paving the streets and the whole nine yards. >> I'm sorry I didn't hear you, Mr. Tremor. Forgive me.
>> The streets would be public. The intent is for the street to be a public roadway. >> You hope I You you haven't gotten approval for that. You're hoping. >> Correct. >> So, I'm just saying if this was to be approved, that would have to be fully
paved, set up, and done so the township doesn't have the burden of finishing it. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um, are all these houses single families or some of them may have multiple families? >> Single family dwellings.
>> Okay. Thank you. Any additional questions, Mr. Hopper, Mr. Peters, Mr. Wilder, any questions, comments, concerns? >> No, Madam Chair, >> Mr. Halpert, um, thank you for your testimony. Uh, couple things in our
report dated April 1st on page eight under traffic and roadway improvements. Um will the proposed right of way under C1 be RSIS compliant? >> Yes.
>> Can you discuss um I know it's only you range but you can you discuss the access to the site and the road frontage that you're along. >> The road frontage is a county roadway. It is an 80 foot rightway.
The applicant would need to provide um roadway widening um to provide 40 foot half width and there would be new roadway greater than 150 ft center
to center from Winterberry to provide access to our sites. >> So the location of the entrance would still be at the discretion of the county. >> Correct. The the application requires county approval. Okay. But
my question is you've shown a location for proposed entrance off the county road that's subject to the approval of the county. Correct? >> Yes. This this board can't say try to get it as close to one of the existing streets as possible or as far away from
one of the existing streets as possible. Your answer is going to be the countyy's going to tell us where it goes. >> Correct. >> Thank you. Um, the last item, um, I'm going to piggyback on the repairarium buffer comments that
Mr. Wilder had started on with the buffer not being I don't want to use an incorrect term, approved, verified, located from
the top of bank or correctly located so to speak. My concern is if the riparian buffer goes further into the development area, what assurances does does the board have? Because you're here asking for 13
lots. This thing gets pushed in 10 15 at what point in time if thisarium buffer line gets absorbs so much of the property, are you going to get rid of lots or you going to reduce the size of all the other lots? because
>> the applicant would would get rid of lots. >> Thank you. That's all I have, Madam Chair. >> Okay. Any other questions before I open it to the public? So, at this time, we're going to have you, anyone who wishes to
come forward and discuss only what has been testified to at this time. You can question Mr. Halpert regarding his testimony. with any other uh professional that comes forward, you will have the same opportunity, but you get to discuss what he has testified to. So any I'm going to open this to the
public. I'm going to open this to the public now. Anyone wishing to come forward, please do so at this time. Do >> you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board? >> Uh, yes I do. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Uh, Adam Heidi, 70 Arena Court, Jackson,
New Jersey. Uh, I am on the environmental commission. However, I am just speaking as a resident. Uh, asking some questions. >> All right. So, let me just before you get started, let me just remind you two things. It's very hard to hear. So, Exactly. Number two, um, as you know, we have a 5m minute time limit. So, please,
>> and just please keep it specific to the engineers testimony. >> Correct. >> Thank you. >> Okay. This property is located within the conservation overlay zone. Correct. >> That is correct. >> Are you familiar with ordinance 2445? >> Yes.
>> Does ordinance 2445 require an issued NJ LOI as a preerequisite to completeness? It does not. >> Could you read 2445 where it does not say that?
>> I have it handy. for the lot is included within the conservation zone overlay boundaries as determined and shows as shaded on the map. 2445 subsection C zone regulations all properties which fall within the
conservation I'm not gonna waste my time. This was previously discussed earlier earlier um and the application is going to be conditioned upon uh uh receiving an LOI from the uh D. >> So all the wetlands depicted on your
diagrams were not verified by the NJ DP. Correct. >> Correct. They have not yet been verified. >> They have not. So as presented there's no confirmed delineation establishing where development is permitted on the site.
>> That is correct. Okay. Uh, just to make it clear, 2445 subchections and C mandates an LOI to be issued irrespective of what the applicant is saying. Has there ever been a case where a prerequisite to completion has been
waved at a land use board? >> I I don't know that he's necessarily um the one to answer that question. Okay. Yes. >> The application proposes 15 residential lots, correct? >> 13 buildable lots and two storm water
lots. >> Okay. And this exceeds uh the seven lots that would mandate an impact statement. >> It does. >> Correct. And would waving an impact statement uh produce a beneficial result to the community?
>> The the application is for a use variance, not for the subdivision. And at the subdivision when fully engineered plans are provided is the appropriate time to provide an environmental impact statement in order to see the extent of the development.
>> Are you requesting a waiver of the impact statement >> as discussed where we're the the impact statement is not a requirement for >> are you requesting a waiver for the impact statement >> if the board doesn't request >> is the applicant requesting a waiver for
244 189 or not on the record? Yes or no? >> If he is saying yes, that means it is a requirement for our ordinance. >> It's not a request for this application. >> So the applicant is not requesting a waiver for 244189. Is that correct? >> That is correct.
>> Okay. So the applicant is not requesting a waiver for the impact statement despite 244189. >> Excuse me one second. >> Given the board, >> Excuse me. I forgive me for interrupting. I will give you your time back. Um let's roll back to when we started. I clearly wrote that you said you were requesting a waiver.
>> We're requesting a waiver from >> Hold on. Hold on. Please don't clap. Did we Did I misunderstand somebody? It >> It was It was Mr. Wilder who was speaking about the requirement and then we discussed putting testimony on the record about the waiver of the environmental impact statement and then
that ventured into discussion of the LOI and the wetlands delineation. Yes, that was identified as a request for a waiver by Mr. Wilder. So the applicant is seeking a waiver for 244189. >> Yes. >> Awesome. Now would that waiver of a
2448189 impact statement produce a beneficial impact to the community? Would waving the potential impacts on the environment produce a beneficial impact to the community? as you are here to your burden tonight is to prove that
this application won't pose a negative impact on the community. Correct. >> This is the engineer and we're restricting our qu this is a that's a planner question. You can come back up on the planners here. This is the engineer talking about the plans not about the positive and negative criteria which is where you're headed. So let's
just stick to what he testified to. Does the applicant have 2445 the conservation zone overlay handy >> the ordinance? Do you mean >> correct? >> Yes. >> Could you read me subsection C
A 244 CA under zone regulations? Could you explicitly read that? All applications for major site plan or major subdivision approval shall be required to submit a valid NJD letter of interpretation
which I and andor permit which identifies all freshwater wetlands and wetlands buffers transitions areas on the property. We're right now seeking a use variance and we're going to be coming back in for a subdivision approval and we'll be providing we'll be we'll be submitting and obtaining an
NJDOI. This application's been bifurcated. >> This is the use variance compon. >> Understood. And you are requesting a waiver of 2445 for an LOI as a prerequisite. Correct.
That's what they said earlier. They're requesting a waiver on the LOI due to it being expired. >> Well, no, that they're not request and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not testifying for you. They requested a waiver because this is a use variance. It's according to what was just read.
They will have to provide it for if if let me let me back up please. a use other should be approved if if if >> and what is the waiver approved then the waiver is I'm sorry the waiver is only for this evening
>> for this use var not this evening the use variance >> very clearly it states for a subdivision or a site plan they would have to have it this is a use variance we're not talking about the subdivision tonight that's why Miss Leoo perfectly
questioned them about the lots >> under what ordinance Is the applicant requesting a waiver of an LOI? >> Madam Chair, if I may. Yes, Mr. >> requesting a waiver from an environmental impact statement which is required pursuant to the town's checklist. >> The that they're not requesting a waiver
from the LOI. It's the environmental impact statement which is in the checklist. >> The impact statement is not and the the LOI is required for completeness, not the impact statement. So, checklist item
number 56, and I'll read it just so we're all on the same page, >> please. >> Um, for applications involving construction of 20,000 square feet of new floor area and/or the creation of seven or more new lots, an environmental impact statement shall be provided and address the requirements of section
244-189 that is required for a use variant and the applicant has requested a waiver for that. >> Right. So, that's the EIS, not the LOI. >> Understood. The yellow eye will be required for the uh site plan or a subdivision which is not this evening. Um
>> this application falls within the overlay zone. Correct. >> Yes. >> And doesn't 2445 >> we we've gone over this about three times already. >> Request the ordinance is requested an LOI as a prerequisite
>> but this is a variance application >> not a subdivision or a site plan. That's what I'm trying to explain. I know it's, trust me, I know it's confusing. This is for a use variance. We're not discussing other than the generalization of the size of the homes. We're not discussing the architecture of the homes. None of
that this evening. It was bifurcated, meaning it was split. This is strictly can they build can they build in a R3 zone more than the number of houses that could fit on the acreage. >> All right. Thank you for coming forward.
We got to one last question. Without an LOI or an impact statement or any verified demonstration of compliant buildable area, does the board have any factual basis to determine where or
where not your applicant can develop. The applicant has the wetlands flags that were located >> verified by I think we've been through this >> yourself. Correct. Thank you.
>> Anyone else? >> Anyone else? >> Can I just for on the record because it sounds we have the right as the board here even um for use variance to request that
>> environmental impact statement. the EIS. Yes. >> Right. We can. >> Yes. >> Right. Okay. >> That's what we were discussing. That was what all that in the beginning was about, >> right? >> So, we agreed to hear it and then at once we determine how we're going to move forward. >> Okay. >> If we
>> because that's what I want wanted to establish right at the beginning. Do we have the legal right to request that? >> Even though and the answer is yes. Right. So, okay. >> Correct. Hi. >> Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board? >> I do.
>> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Elanor Hannam, 7 Green Court, Jackson, New Jersey. >> So, here's my question. So, what you're asking this board is basically to change our master plan from an R3. >> Move closer to the mic, please. >> I'm Oh, you can't hear me? I'm sorry.
Um, you're asking this board to actually change the master plan from an R3 basically to an R1. Is that correct? >> That's not an engineering question, but the answer would be no. >> So, you're not asking this board to
alter our master plan. >> That's correct. This does not involve the master plan. Only the governing body would do that in the planning board. it. This is an R3 zone, which means that you can only put one home on three acres of property. So, what I missed the
beginning of this testimony um because I got here late. So, what I did hear was there was testimony discussing Anita Drive and I believe that's Bittersweet and all the other um culde-sacs off of it from the north and
or the west and uh the south. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Okay. And you use that as I guess your foundation to justify uh building homes
on one acre lots in a R3 zone. Is that correct? >> The board uh planner had um a comment to discuss the surrounding areas and the surrounding areas were discussed. >> Yes. Yes. And you were referring to
those uh streets and basically stating that they are on 1 acre lots. Um I will say in our prior master plan, it was the state recommendation to reszone Jackson Township and
put in R3 because of the septic nitrates going into the aquifer. Are you aware of that? These are really planning questions, not really the engineers testimony.
>> I'm stating a fact. So, >> right now, we're just here testimony. I get it. So, at the same time, I know that there was testimony that uh Mr. Martins kept on making comments about it being a two and a half story
house. Is that correct? the applicant is proposing two and a half story homes. >> Okay. And uh with your your egress windows. Uh so did you perk this property or was this property I know it had to have been perked when the school
or the church went with their application? And if so, where did this uh property perk at? especially in in the back. >> The the the applicant is is is only here for a use variance. The previous um
engineer on the church application and the school application had done all the um storm water management and soil testing >> that will be done with the subdivision application. >> Okay. So, uh, knowing this town, knowing that land, knowing that area, you're
looking at a extremely high water table. So, now you're saying you put did put on the record that you're going to go basement six feet into the ground. Generally, I don't know, a basement is about 12 feet, 13 feet.
Um, so I find it really, really hard to believe that you're going six feet in, especially with the fact that you have such a high water table. Otherwise, you're going to flood your basement. So, those basements are actually going to be much higher than that. >> The the plans depicted are for the
purpose of just the use variance sketch and the applicant will be provide making sure that any basement are going to remain above the seasonal high water table. >> Okay. I'm just going to leave with you're actually asking this board to change our master plan from an R3 to an
R1 zone. Thank you. You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board. >> Yes. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Holly Reynolds 3. Mary Bethane Jackson. >> I could just make a comment or statement, right? I don't have to ask them a question just based on what they already said
>> based on his testimony. >> Okay. >> This application fails to meet both positive and negative criteria. This is planning. This is planning testimony that you're talking about. You >> think they testified? >> No, we haven't testified it. That would be when the planner comes up. This is just the engineering about the plans and the lots and the lot sizes and the
wetlands. That's all that is. You can save that for when the planner comes. >> So, the planner ma'am, just so you understand, I understand it's frustrating. You've been waiting, but when the planner is done, you will have that opportunity. The planner will discuss that. >> I understand. But everything, my statement is based on everything that
was already said here. >> But you just started talking about the positive negative criteria which he didn't >> we haven't got the the attorney summarized it >> that's fine I'll come back and reread it >> thank you >> anyone else wishing to come forward seeing no one else come
up You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board. >> I do. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Sheranne Frederick, 8 Aspen Court, Jackson, New Jersey. >> Hey, go ahead. >> Okay. I don't really have any questions
except maybe I don't understand. Are we putting in a school? Are we putting in a housing development? Are we putting in a church? Are we doing all of this? I'm not gleaning what it is exactly. >> Right. We're asking questions of the applicant's engineer right now.
>> Yeah. >> So, >> the the applicant seeks to um develop the property with a residential development. >> So, there won't be a school. >> There will not be a school >> and there won't be a church. It'll just be a housing development. >> No. If if the board denies this
application, the school will be built. It's approved, started site work, the school will be built. We're coming here for an alternative development proposal, but if the board decides that's not good for Jackson in the neighborhood, we're building the school.
>> Okay. So, regardless of what we say or what we think or what we do, you're going to build something >> on that on that piece of property. Yes. >> Okay. and regardless of what that consists of and how that affects others doesn't really come into play. Is that true?
>> Well, the school is permitted and it was a variance-free application before the planning board. So, that's what your township ordinance wants and master plan wants. So, the planning board granted us an approval. >> Okay. I don't know if they came and actually came to you and said this is what we want. We want you to do it for
us. Okay. But what I understood when I moved here to Jackson 15 years ago, by the way, just in case, just to give you some idea, I live in the old Eden house, Anry Eden's house, her and Ken, I bought their house 15 years ago. Okay? So, just
so you get an idea of where I am because my house, I can look out my kitchen windows and I can see the property that they're talking about. I can see it. Okay. Now, there are so many things here. I don't want to take up too much time, but at the same time, I don't
understand why there isn't anything definitive. We were told that we were going to get a Baptist church. >> Okay. So, can I interrupt here? Um, I'm not testifying. Let me >> No, I'm not. I'm just trying to >> I'm just trying to help everybody understand. I get the confusion.
>> There was a Baptist uh church congregation that owned the property. It is my understanding that that property was then sold. Then the application the applicant went before the planning board, not the zoning board, before the planning board because it was an approved used and was granted the right
to build a school. They have now since coming decided they're not sure if they want to build a school or they don't want to build a school. I'll let you answer that. And they're uh prop putting forth a proposition to put in on the 16 almost 17 acres, 13 single family homes
and two storm water basins. So that's where we are. But m Jennings. So just show you I just want to be sure ma'am you understand. >> No I understand. >> So Miss Jennings is saying well if we don't approve or they don't get approval to build the homes they will go forward with the plan that the planning board
approved to build the school. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. Okay. But in in all honesty there was supposed to be a church a Baptist church here and someone made those people an offer they could not refuse for that property. Basically,
that's what's happened here, or at least from my understanding of this situation. And all of my neighbors on my block and in my direct vicinity, we're all of the same mindset here. Okay? I don't understand why here and why now. Okay?
We're having a problem with this town as it is. I moved here because it was a beautiful town. It was made of good people, good schools, and that's what I wanted. Okay? That's what I came here for. And thankfully and Marie decided to sell me her house and I've been here
ever since. Now they talk about the property here that they're that they're speaking about. This property has been an eyes saw from day one. From day one. If you go there now, there's been nothing done to this property. And if anything has ever been done to this
property, it is maybe waiting until the weeds are seven feet high and then brushing them down. And then all the mice and any other rodents that just happen to be living there wind up in my >> house testimony. We're getting beyond a testimony. >> Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to get you. So you'll forgive me. This is my
first time. >> There will be time for general comments later. We're just trying to move through the application. >> All right. So then then what it looks like my first time. >> There will be time for general comments later. We're just trying to move through the application. >> All right. So then then what it looks
like to me is what it's basically up to you, right? what's going to happen here and whether or not we're going to be a town anymore because again we have no young people coming. >> It's not up to us. So ma'am, let me just be clear and this is no disrespect because I've been in Jackson for 51
years. Be clear, okay? I just want you all to understand that this affects me like it affects you and every other member up here. >> I understand. >> Let me be clear. Unfortunately, this is not up to us. They have an existing approval. >> Miss Jennings has made it abundantly clear on the record. If this is not
approved, they already have an approval to build a school. So, I just want to be clear. >> All right. So, whatever, something's going to be there. I >> something's going. Okay. >> All right. >> All right. >> Thank you. Anyone else wishing to come forward? >> May I just say one more thing?
>> Oh, go ahead, ma'am. Real quickly, >> you know, if you're trying to work within the community and you want to be in a community, that's neighborly. You have a neighborhood. And when you do things, you do them in a neighborly way to to for forfeit um I'm sorry to
for >> forge. >> Yeah. Well, that wasn't the word, but that'll do. Uh to forge an alliance of neighbors and people together, right? I don't see this as any of that. >> It's like I said already we're struggling. We've lost our medical
center. >> I'm sorry. You're getting beyond. We're trying to talk about the engine. We need to keep Okay, then I'll I'll take my time. Come back up. Thank you. >> Thank you for your patience. >> Just to be clear, don't go away. You'll have more time at the end for those
statements. >> Hi, my name is Peter Mikos. I live at 21 Heath Lane here in Jackson. >> Can you just raise your right hand? >> Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board? >> Sure. I'm only asking questions. I'm >> Thank you. >> And sir, forgive me. What was your last name?
>> Mikos. M E K O S H. >> Thank you. >> Um what I really was interested in finding out from the applicant was this. What I'm hearing about the water table on that property is that it's very high.
And you're talking about putting septic systems in whether it's homes or a school. And what I'm really interested in finding out is where are you going to provide drinking water or how are you going to provide drinking water for the
homes or water for bathing or whatever? Are you going to have water piped in? >> The applicant would be installing wells. >> Okay. So, your wells are going to sink through the septic water that's seeping into the ground.
>> There are requirements spacing distance requirements. The wells would be 100 feet from the septic system. Yeah, I' I've seen that stuff before, too. All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. >> Hello. >> You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the
truth in this matter before the board. >> I do. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Ryan Ellbury, 37 Anita Drive. I have a question for the applicant about uh Anita Drive. We were privately owned HOA community. Our storm water basin is
adjacent or butdding up to where they proposed to put their storm water basin. Is this correct on your plan? >> Our stormwater basin. There are two stormwater basin lots. One of them is over here. >> So that is correct. That's butdding up to our >> correct. >> Okay. So if without any engineering wise
or DP or storm water testing, drain, soil test or anything that's been you claimed has been done there, which has not been done there because I'm in those woods every single day. Promise you that. Where is your water going to flow opposed to ours? So that road already floods as it
is since you've previous owners have been there and cleared out the land. As part of this, as part of any storm water management system, part of the calculations would need to show something called groundwater would need to show that the impact of uh one storm water basin would not uh impact any
other building or a storm water basin. So it would have to be designed in a way where there would be no impacts. Those designs have not been completed yet. This is only for the use variance. >> Correct. Okay. Um back to you said you couldn't testify on this question. I
believe Mr. Tremor asked was the school is proposed to be in the middle of the property. Is that correct? >> Correct. Yes. >> Why is that school not built on the back of the property? Is it because of the wetlands variances or why is it encroaching in the distances? >> I would not be able to say why the
school was there. The school doesn't need to be farther back. Typically in designing something, you would want to limit uh the length of roadway. >> So then why is it not in the front of the property? the front of the property is a a bit more constrained. You need to get back,
have parking. >> Okay. Thank you very much. That's all the question I had. >> Thank you, sir. >> You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board? >> I do. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> My name is Thomas Corona, uh, 43 Need
Drive. Uh, I moved there January 2005, about a year, a little more than a year ago. I seen they were clearing out some land back there. I always ask question what they were doing back there. I was told they were building a church, a school. Now I hear they want to build 13
uh 10 bedroomedroom homes. Okay. I live on Anita Drive. Again, there's no home on that block. That's >> I'm sorry. There's no I couldn't >> There's no homes on that block that are 9,000 square feet, right? The homes on
that block are mostly ranches and two two family story homes. Um the biggest house in the block is maybe 2,000 square feet and the smallest is maybe 1,500 square feet. Um I've walked back there with my dog
several times and you have to wear boots because it's wet, very wet. And I've been there in the summertime when there was no rain for about two weeks and it was wet, soaking wet. So other times, um, my concern here is
where's where's the storm water going to be storm water drainage going to be and how it's going to be handled in this community if they decide to put it there. >> The storm water lot. Um, Anthony, could you um pull up the plans, the submitted
plans? Could you uh zoom in a little bit to over here? The storm water lots are proposed toward the front of the property at the lower portion at the lower portion of the property. >> And getting back to the school where you said you want to build the school in the
middle of the property, could you go to back to that slide? >> Anthony, could you pull up the um current approval exhibits? a different file. >> Yeah. How close how close is the school going to be to that town uh exempt lot
adjacent to that? Because to the way this is shown here, it looks like it's in that uh town lot 4 zone. >> Anthony, could you go to the previous sheet, please? Um could you zoom into this area?
the current the current approval um is the school. This is where the school is. This is that township exempt lot. >> And when you have a school, don't you have to have an entrance and egress?
>> The Anthony, could you zoom out please? There's a there is a connecting uh drive access to Castville Roadway with full access. Again, this is a previous approval. This is not part of this application. This was >> that was already approved by the planning. >> Understood.
>> That's all I have. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for coming forward. >> The other gentlemen, >> good evening. >> You can hold it up. You're tall. You can hold that. >> You solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board. >> Yes, I do.
>> Please state your name and address. >> My name is Guy Vasola, one High Bush Drive, Jackson, New Jersey. Um, I would just like to say Jackson welcomes every gender, ethnicity, culture. It's a beautiful place to live. Um, I
would just like to say that since this has been cleared out, I've been underwater since any of the property's been manipulated. I don't know what they did. >> Excuse me. I'm sorry. Anthony, can you put up the other map? Can you just show us where your home is?
>> So, that's where we are. And since it's been moved around, I don't know what's been moved around, but we're constantly we are constantly taking water out of our house. It's forever. The pumps are always on. The
electricity bill is through the roof. Um I just would like to make sure that we could get to this at some point and make sure that you're talking about drainage on that side. What about where we are up top? Um, and I think it's a legitimate, >> it is a very a legitimate concern.
Tonight's just for the use variance whether they'll be even be allowed to build. And again, as Miss Jennings has stated, if they cannot build homes, they will build a school. But that will be all part if if it this were to be approved here, that would have they would come back for a site plan and
subdivision. >> I mean, in double family homes with double occupancy, why weren't we afforded that option? >> What do you mean double occupancy, sir? >> I don't know. kind of what I'm I'm getting from all this. Is it going to be double? >> Well, Mr. Hardbert, I'll let you testify. Go ahead, sir. >> These are single family dwellings and uh
the applicant would be improving the property with full storm water management. The applicant would not be doing anything to the rear of the property as discussed. That's a constrained area. The applicant would not be doing anything to the portion that you that you pointed to. >> Okay. We'll end Goldman and Spitzer.
Warren will end dear to me and my family and his wife Roa. But I'd like to thank I'm I'm thanking you all in advance because I know you're going to protect all of us here. Thank you so much. >> Thank you for coming forward. >> Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board?
>> Yes. Please state your name and address for the record. >> Richard Vulpi, 39 Anita Drive, Jackson. >> Okay. >> Go ahead. >> Yes. >> Okay. My first question is where are the septics going to be located? In the back of the houses or the front?
>> Mr. Mr. Vulpi, I think I heard your name right. Uh microphone, it's hard to hear. Sorry. I'm >> asking you about the septic. And >> Anthony, could you please pull up the uh plane? Could you uh zoom into
Could you please zoom into this area? Uh could you go to the next I'm sorry. Could you go to the next sheet? Okay, this is okay. The septic systems would generally be in the front of the house or to the side of the house. It would not be in not be generally in the rear.
>> Okay. My concerns are we have in Anita Drive a 150 foot easement at the end of all our properties. You're you're offering us 10 ft.
I don't think that's quite fair, you know. >> I'm sorry, Mr. Vulpi. Say that again. >> We We have the end of our properties. 150 ft conservation easement is part of my property. >> The back of your property.
>> That's correct. And everyone on the street has the same thing. And from what I heard, he said they will give us a 10-foot buffer. And >> Mr. Hopper, >> that's not acceptable. >> Buffer is
>> the applicant would be seeking to provide 10-ft buffers along the rears of the property by leaving the wooded area untouched. >> 10 feet compared. >> Is there a 150 foot buffer requirement on your property? >> There is no 150 foot buffer
requirements. What did the planning board require for that school? >> Schools do have buffer requirements >> and we made it special exception on that one too because of the neighbors. What was the number >> the the school should have a 50 foot
buffer is our residential development now is proposing the buffer requirement from the >> to the man's >> question he's that's basically what he's asking why isn't he getting the same respect >> the 50ft buffer is a requirement for a commercial property the applicant is
seeking now to develop a residential the property as a residential development and therefore the applicant isn't proposing a 50-foot buffer Uh these are both residential developments. >> All right. So just for the record so we all understand, Mr. Vulpi is saying that
the homes on Anita Drive that would butt up to this property, you have a 150 foot east at the back of each of your properties. So there's a 150 foot buffer per se. And what you're saying is they're only um requesting to have a 10-ft buffer. Did I get that correct?
>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I don't think that's fair. And also you said um nothing has changed with the wetlands, but the person that owns the junkyard built a huge dam.
Water levels are much higher now. All the way out to Leville, if you look at the bridge that's on Leville Road, the water was never up that high that you could see it at the road level. Now it is. So wetlands have changed.
I walk in the woods a lot. I know. So, just letting you know, you need to update it. >> Well, they will I if and again I'm stating if very clearly if it were to be approved and they were going to come back, that would have to be provided at
time of site plan and subdivision. >> My suggestion is leave it at three acres because we were grandfathered in. You changed the the variance because of what these developments were doing that I moved into. you made it to three acres, so that couldn't happen anymore. And now
it's looking to be changed again. Why? >> Well, it would not change the master plan. The zoning would still be R3. They're asking for a variance so that they don't have to be. No, I'm I just was trying to be clear. >> I think uh the school would be a better idea.
>> Thank you. Seeing no one else come forward, we're going to go ahead and close public session. Miss Jennings. Um, it is 8:51. >> Do you want to call your break? >> I need a break. >> Okay. >> Five minute break. Uh, let's make it 9.
It's 8:51. Let's be back at 9:00. >> All right. I'll wait. Hello. >> Can we just talk about the heat? >> The heat. >> Is it cranked up? >> No, it's just not me.
>> Oh, it's just it's just all the hot air. You said it. I'm >> Thank you for your patience. We're going to call this meeting back to order. >> Jennings. >> Yeah. I'd like to call the uh applicant representative. Uh he'd like to say and
address the board and and the public. >> You just raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth in this matter before the board? >> Yes, I do. >> Just please state your name for the record. >> Mosha Pearl. >> Excuse me, sir. OSHA Pearlstein. >> Thank you. >> Yes. Speak nice and loud into the
microphone. And you are the um applicant's representative, correct? >> Yes, I am. >> Okay. And you've been here throughout the evening, correct? >> Yes, I am. >> And you've heard the concerns of the board members and the board's consultants as well as comments from the public and you wanted to have an
opportunity to address that. Correct. >> Yes. >> Okay. Floor is yours. >> I thank everyone for being here tonight. I thank everyone for being here tonight. I do thank everyone. I I do see and I do feel people are very
nervous and people are upset. Okay. And some of it is for good reason. Unfortunately, I could see there's a lot of miscommunication. I understand you're upset and
The sad part is the reason why I'm here tonight is because there were neighbors that asked us to switch it from a school to housing. Well, there were neighbors that asked us
originally having a school has a lot more value than putting the amount of houses that we want to put here. I'm even if it would help I would offer we would even drop it to bigger lots and
even go down to 10 11 houses >> 10 houses whatever it takes >> then we're going to have to build a school if it's >> all right if the public we have someone who's speaking right now he's been sworn please be respectful >> no but it they are respectful and I'm
fine but let's realize I'm available And I'm the same way people reached out to me when we got uh when we were here a year and a half ago whenever it was and they asked us to put houses. So we moved
in that direction. I would move again and I would drop the houses, make bigger lots, take get rid of the two back lots so the buffers get even bigger. We're ready to work together.
I just feel bad when 85% of the people sitting behind me don't even know the neighborhood and they're just excited to shoot down an approval. We're hurting the neighborhood. >> We're hurting the neighborhood. If we
cared about Jackson, sir, if you could speak. Excuse me. >> All right, sir. Please. >> Excuse me. If we care, I'm addressing them because you're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're
right. If we care and I care, anyone that wants my phone number, I'm available. 7323004957323004957 and I will work with anyone. And if you say to me, we don't want houses, I won't do houses. I'll build a school,
but I am ready to go down to 10 houses, make it more user friendly in their opinion. But remember, the neighborhood is going to be a better neighborhood
by having 101 houses than having a school with school buses. But whatever you want, I'm here to work with everyone. I say I thank everyone on the board. I'm not jealous of any of your jobs. I'm not like he said the big bucks that
you're all getting paid to be here, but thank you very much. I look forward to working with everyone here in the room. I promise you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Are you >> Yeah. So, what we'd like to do is carry the application and we're going to
reduce the number of lots and and come back. So, new notice will be required. >> Sure. >> Um because we don't have that date right now. >> Correct. >> And you're going to wave all time constraints under the >> Yes. Thank you. >> At the risk of starting trouble, can I
make a request, please? >> If you're going to come back and keep it at residence, may I suggest the environmental impact statement and the LOI? You heard all the concerns? >> Agreed. >> Okay. >> Understood. >> Thank you. >> Thank Yeah. So, the board will just vote
on the request to carry the application. Date is not yet certain. New notice will be required and the applicant has waved all time constraints. >> All right. So, board, we need a >> date to be determined. >> To be determined. Yep. Because they're >> want to throw on something just as a a place keeper.
>> Do you know how much time you need? >> I know. >> All right. >> I know you're going to get some feedback from the public. Um, and we could do a date in July or Okay, Gina, do you wanna
>> Um, >> we have one application off for June 3rd as it stands. >> That might be Is that enough time? Probably not. And June 17th, we know Miss Jennings is not available. >> Conflict. >> Uh, July 15th is our reorg meeting.
That's as far as we have meeting dates. >> So July this year, >> but that's not >> July 15th. >> July. What was the other one? July. >> That's it. That's it. No. July. June 13th, June 17th, July 15th. >> Okay. >> We only have one meeting in July. >> Okay. >> Do you want to just put it on for like a place a placeholder for now? And then if
uh Miss Jennings would like to push it, we can from there. >> Okay. >> What day? Uh June 17th is the furthest one we have. And you're not available. >> July 15th. >> July 15th is July 15th is the reorg. >> July 15th. So put that on for the date. Okay.
Don't forget RV York. It's just for the board members, >> right? >> Okay. All right. So, you just need a motion. >> All right. So, we need a motion, a second to allow them to carry the application, return of a date to be determined. It looks like potentially July 15th and notice will be required.
>> Motion. >> Second. >> We have a motion to second. Kathleen, roll call, please. >> Mr. Martins. >> Um, yes. I would just like to make sure that we get the letter of intent. Environmental impact
>> made that recommendation. >> Okay. Yes. Thank you, >> Mr. Rosal. >> Yes. >> Mr. Tremor. >> Yes. >> Miss Cusano. >> Yes. >> Mr. Selectia. >> Yes. >> Dr. Hoffstein. >> Yes. And I hope hope we can get an application that has fewer homes and see
how that works out with everybody. Thank you, >> Miss Bradley. >> Yes. Thank you. >> What do you mean by that? >> We you too Robin for your entertainment only. >> Appreciate you. We are going to move on to what is application number three on
our agenda which is JPO Jackson LP Grand Harmony amended site plan 837-3. Where's Mr. Shay? >> No, he said he's going to go in that room. Just need a couple. >> Okay.
>> So, as you can all see, our attorney has left the deis as there is a conflict with her firm. We're waiting for Mr. Sheay who will be sitting in on this application. Excuse me. >> Thank you, sir.
>> Got the big guns out today, huh? >> Thank you. as well. >> Oh, there he is. >> No, no, no. Thank you. >> All right. As you can see, Mr. Sheay has joined us. As I stated, Miss Leoo's firm
had a conflict. Mr. Sheay will be covering this application. Uh, Miss Jennings, you have the floor. Thank you. Good evening. For the record, Donna Jennings from the law firm of Waln and Spitzer. On behalf of the applicant, as the board is aware, the applicant is
seeking an amendment to the previously approved preliminary and final major site plan to convert the clubhouse into a house of worship with the addition of a religious bathing facility known as a mikvah. The property where the approved clubhouse is located is on Grand Harmony
Boulevard and identified as block 4801, lot 5.04 on the township's tax map. The property is approximately 6.21 acres and is located in the LC limited commercial zoning district. As you are aware, the board previously granted a D1 use
variance permit multifamily housing at the property, AC variance for the height of the accessory clubhouse building and site plan approval, including subsequent amendments. The larger development was approved to have 195 residential units, including 40 affordable housing units,
the clubhouse, and various other outdoor amenities and other site improvements. Most recently, this board granted a technical subdivision to permit fee simple ownership of the townhouse units. Again, with this application, the applicant is looking to convert the clubhouse into the house of worship with
the accessory mikvah. In support of the proposal, the applicant will rely on the direct testimony um of Bill Stevens, the engineer and plan and and uh Andrew Janu, the planner, and our architect, Melie Rub. Uh with that, we have two review letters. the board planners
review letter dated April 1st, 2026 and the board engineers review letter dated April 3rd, 2026. So with that, I'd like to have Mr. Stevens, who's sitting to my left, uh, be sworn in and we can begin. M, >> Miss Jennings, um, let me just go over a
couple threshold issues just right off the gate so we could just get those, maybe get some testimony on it later on down the road. Um, first what I want to go over is that is there any sign off by the HOA or the COA on the application
itself? Um, here's my reason. >> Okay. I don't believe that was submitted with the application. Was it? >> No, because the board doesn't really look at the HOA documents. That's really beyond your jurisdiction, but we have approval on that already. >> Would would the applicant be able to
supply the board Absolutely. sign off on those because that would resolve the equitable >> problem with with having the >> clubhouse. >> Understood. >> Okay. Um All right. Second issue is that of the notice. Um and this leads me into
the following question, but it it goes back to the fact that the notice wasn't reflective of the D1 variance that was it's basically amendment to the D1 variance. So it it the notice indicates
that um you're coming before the board for an inherently beneficial use, two permitted uses. Um I get that. But in 2020, the the D1 variance itself was granted
and via what's being sought that D1 variance is being amended. That's a notice issue that I just want to bring to your attention to make sure that if we do have another hearing, may have to notice it based upon what's
being requested. >> Okay. So, I would disagree with you. There's no change in the devariance which permitted the density for the residential units. There's no additional residential units being added to the site. It's simply the previously approved clubhouse is being changed into
or being requested to be converted to a house of worship. So it does not impact the DVA at all. So the notice requested amended site plan approval and several bulk variances related to ironically to the clubhouse because your ordinance uh has more stringent bulk standards for a
religious assembly use as opposed to a non-religious assembly use which I would argue is a violation of the federal statute the religious land use institutionalized person act. But with that said, the applicant has notice for those variances even though the building itself uh being converted does not
change any of the setbacks of the existing clubhouse which is technically under construction. So even though there's an addition of the mikvah that does not add to any setback variances. So I believe the notice is accurate and that there is no uh devariance being
requested. The only reason we're before this board is that this board has had jurisdiction over every application that we've done. So, we've stayed at this board, but there is no uh devariance being requested this evening. >> Okay. So, that leads me into um the next
question. So, um in 2020, the resolution that was approved was for a devariance. the the clubhouse itself was a a fundamental aspect of that D1. Um any request that's
being made would be at least in my mind um and I'll leave it up to the uh professional planner that the board has to weigh in on it, but that would be an amendment to that D1. With that being said, if the applicant is ready to take
that risk and move forward, I'll leave that up to the to the applicant themselves. that's a risk that they have to make that they have to take. Um, but the other question I have or really just I want to make a comment as to clarification for for all the board
members. Um, I understand that you're indicating that you're that you don't believe that you're requesting any devariances, but um, from my perspective, we this could be a D1 or D2 or D3. We have one inherently beneficial
use for the house of worship. there's no case law or statute on point yet for for a mikvah being an inherently beneficial use. Um so we may have two uses simultaneously tracking with different legal standards. So, um, while you're
presenting, um, just make sure that the board is clear as to the legal tests that are that you're seeking or requesting or may impact you because it could be a D1, could be a D2, could be a D3. That's just my perspective. I'll
leave that up to the planners to make that determination. >> Right. Again, I'll just state for the record, there is no D1, no D2, no D3. In fact, we were here the last time and we changed the recreational amenities, which is kind of what we're doing today. And we did not ask for a devariance. It
wasn't called out for. We did not request it. Again, the devariance that was granted with this project related to putting residential units on this property. This is a limited commercial zoning district. So, it was related to the number of residential units at the
site. So I would not agree with you on the analysis that there's any devariance being requested. I'll leave that up. >> And again, the house of worship is permitted use in the zone. >> Um and again, the only reason we need any bulk variances for the house of worship is because you have more
stringent setback variances for your religious uses as opposed to your non-religious uses. But the building itself will be substantially the same size as was previously approved other than the addition of the mikvah which does not trigger any new variances. >> That that goes back back to my concern
of a possible D2 because if we're looking at at those elements that a house of worship or a mikvah has to meet if there conditions that would just raise my concerns with the D2. But again, I'll leave it up to the planners to decide that and make that
determination. Um and then we can go from there. I I just wanted to >> I don't know where you're getting D2 from. What What do you think is a D3? >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. D3. D3 >> for what? >> So if if >> what kind of what do you think is a D3?
>> So it would be a conditional use. >> There is no No, the house of worship is a permitted use in the zone subject to meeting the bulk standards. I'm very positive about this, Bobby, because I helped the town write the ordinance and it is not a conditional use. It is a
permitted use. subject to >> I'm just going over threshold issues. I just want to address for the record. I'll let the planners put their own testimony on and everybody can take it from there. >> Okay. Let's uh get Mr. Stevens sworn in and we'll begin. >> Please state your name and spell you last for the record.
>> William Stevens. Sens. >> You swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> All right. Please uh list your credentials so that the board can accept them. >> I'd be happy to. So I am a licensed professional engineer and planner here in the state of New Jersey and I've been
appearing in that capacity before this board for a very very long time. >> Mr. Stevens, we're very familiar with you and this board except your credentials. Thank you. >> Thank you, Madam Chair, and good evening. >> Okay, Mr. Stevens, if you could um could you just describe the approved clubhouse
and the larger development approval that I referenced in the opening and if you're going to reference any exhibits, just please identify them for the record. >> Right. So we we have prepared for this evening a set of exhibits A1 through A8. A1 being up on the screen
at the moment. A1 is a aerial photograph prepared by my office. It is dated on a flight October the 11th 2025. So it is is a bit dated but I think in the world of aerial photographs it's fairly recent. There has been additional work
done to the site since this photograph was taken place. The project is under construction and the applicant does have approvals to begin construction of the building that we're talking about now. What was previously permit or previously approved as a clubhouse and we're
seeking to change to a house of worship. I mean my opinion as a engineer is is is simple. very small changes that will be required to allow this use to change. Uh there really aren't any engineering components
to this application. We are keeping everything the same as was previously approved and is presently under construction. the the planning aspects of this I think are are also very simple as what Miss Jennings had said in the beginning of
her testimony is that the proposed use of the house of worship is a permitted use here in the zone. So we are not seeking any devariances. We are simply seeking an amendment to the previously approved plan to allow what was previously approved as an assembly use
to be a religious assembly use. And I would almost argue as a planner that that approval isn't even necessary because I would believe the residents of this community would have a right to pray inside of the clubhouse whether we call it a house of worship or not. >> Okay. Can you describe though there is a
uh an addition to the clubhouse that that we are adding with reference to the mikvah which I think was originally proposed in the basement but has been now moved up to the first floor and there's a slight addition. >> I'd be happy to. Anthony, if you could
move on to exhibit A2, please. So, exhibit A2 shows the the subject development, shows Harmony Road located over to the right and then Harmony Boulevard come coming in as well as our Loop Road. And the building that we're talking about, the House of Worship is
located directly in the center of the map. the addition. Perhaps Anthony, you could zoom in on that building a little bit, the one in the center of the map. So, so the building as proposed is
exactly the same as was previously approved say for the addition that is shown in the very rear right corner of the building. That is an addition that is proposed to be a a mikvah that will be approximately 856 square feet. So it
is a a very small I don't know why this keeps cutting out is a very small addition to the building and and that really is the only visible change to the application. >> Okay. And if you could just touch on some of the bulk variances that the applicant is going to be rece uh
requesting this evening. So there are some variances that were called out as part of this application. The the first one being minimum lot width where 200 feet is required and 50 ft is provided. That is an existing condition of the
lot. This board will recall that this property was subdivided and all these individual lots that are shown have been created. So the larger lot where the house of worship is located is what we're talking about. It's over 6 acre
lot that has frontage out to Grand Harmony Boulevard and out to Harmony Road. The frontage requirement that we're talking about, I'm sorry, we're talking about lot width, excuse me, I misspoke. So the lot width that we're talking about we
measured at the front setback of the of the LC zone which would be located approximately in here and is approximately 50 ft and that is how lot is measured here in Jackson Township. So technically that is a variance that
would be required although it is an existing condition unchanged by the applicant's request to make this a house of worship. If we are to measure the lot width at the front of the building, which would be more typical if we were looking at a different lot if it had a
different shape is approximately 500 ft. So we significantly exceed the lot width. This is not an undersized lot. So although we need this variance because of the testing conditions, I believe it really is dimminimous and and will not cause any substantial detriment uh
should the variance be granted because the lot exists and the building is already approved to be constructed. The second variance that we're looking at or that has been called out is is for lot frontage
where 200 feet is required and we had said let me get this straight that that 96 ft is being provided and that lot frontage that we're saying is 96 ft that's located along Tranquility
Place at the intersection of Grand Harmony Boulevard. However, if we were and that's just really out of out of being a clear and conservative answer, but this lot has frontage all along
Tranquility Place in many places. If we were to go into frontages, we would we would have around 536 linear feet. So, it would significantly exceed what is required. And by my reading of your lot frontage
ordinance, it doesn't say that it has to be contiguous frontage. So I believe we meet the intent of the ordinance. I'll leave that up to Mr. Peters to further comment. >> Excuse me. Could I just interrupt you? Um 244-55F
section one for House of Worship. It says lots shall not have their sole frontage on a residential access or residential neighborhood street or any lower order street. Uh what type of street is Grand Harmony
Boulevard >> because you seem to be asking for a variance for this. >> Yes, we are. So, it's not on on a street that's that's approved in in the code. >> So, I I think we have to be clearer
about what we're talking about with the access. We are our access is out to Tranquility Place and Grand Harmony Boulevard. Grand Harmony Boulevard is a divided access way. We We were good where we were, Anthony.
It's okay. So, Grand Harmony Boulevard is a divided access way that provides access out to a county street. So, I I believe not only do we meet the intent of the ordinance, but we we meet the clear definition of the ordinance. We have Mr. Ray here who could give further testimony about the orders of the
streets, but I believe that we comply and that variance is not required. >> So, you're saying it doesn't come out to the to the grant to the residential street? So there there's also another caveat here, Madam Chair, and that these these streets inside of this development
are private streets. So this is all a private development that accesses the county road. So the definitions become in my opinion a little difficult to ascertain, but I believe that the order of the street boulevard and its connection to the
county road meet the intention of your ordinance. >> I'm sorry, Dr. According to what what they said was the the idea was to keep houses of worship outside of residential communities >> but enable them to be constructed on larger streets nearby. So basically you
shouldn't be building this this house of worship in the middle of this community. It should be on some lot on harmony or nearby. >> Well respectfully it's a if it is a variance we're asking for relief. It's
just a bulk variance and the community has asked us to have this converted from a clubhouse to the house of worship. The people that live there, >> how large is the how large is the community right now? How many people are living there?
>> Well, they're all there's I think 95 contracts of sale. >> But how many are living in the community right now? >> And how many are members of the house? >> They're not units right now. >> They're not closed. 20 20 units. >> All right. So >> 20
>> Dr. Let me interrupt you. I'm sorry. >> You said something. I don't want to lose sight of this. I apologize. You used to comment private community. Help me understand what does that mean. Help us understand what does that mean. >> So normally when we would look at at a development, Madam Chair, as the last development being talked about, the
street was being proposed would be a municipal roadway. The only the only municipal roadway here and it isn't a municipal roadway. It's a county arterial road is is is Harmony is Harmony Boulevard or >> So who's going to be responsible for maintenance of this road, plowing this
road, all that? >> So the roads inside of Grand Harmony or private roads that are maintained by the homeowners association. >> So there be no public plowing, no public any of that. >> There is not. No. >> Has the homeowners association been formed yet? >> Yes.
And these 40 I don't I don't remember how many you said are occupied, but how many members does this have out of uh 155? >> I I don't know the answer to that question. >> You have 20 homes. I mean, that's not even a majority,
>> correct? >> Of of the community. >> It's just the people who managed to move in there first. >> So, Dr. I think that um you're you're not understanding the the testimony that has been said. It's my understanding we have 97 contracts of sale out of the 155
units. Those people didn't right now. >> So So right now I believe there are 20 units that are closed. We could ask the applicant. >> So those are the only ones that are able to vote on the HO HOA. >> The ones who the the ones who are going
for closing or whatever it is are not occupants yet. Can I expand that question? >> Yes, please do. >> We're talking community now. As per and correct me if I'm wrong, the planning board resolution, this is an open community to anybody who wants
to live there. Correct. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> So, how does putting a religious building in there affect an open community
>> or is this a closed community? Which one is it? It's an open community, but I don't this is also stuff beyond the jurisdiction of this board. Those are HOA documents and there the property owner controls the site right now and they have asked for
uh approval for the house of worship which again is a permitted use in the zone. >> Okay. But but I'm I'm looking at the elephant in the room here. This is a closed community, not an open community. >> That's your opinion. It's an open community. Well, no. It's not it's not
an opinion. I'm asking you a question. You have >> it's an open community. Why are you saying it's closed? >> If you build a religious building in there that's going to segregate. >> That's your opinion. >> So, there are there are some documents that the board would be entitled to be
privy to. Number one, um, you know, would be the bylaws of the COA and HOA. Uh, number well, they're they're already filed with the county, right? >> Um, you know, but they exist. They're already filed. So, so we would just I guess request that the applicant provide
those for the board for review. >> Sure. >> Uh the public um offering statement uh for the board review so that they know at what point in time you know anything would transfer over as to COA and HOA involvement. >> Um I
>> sorry. So I guess the point I was trying to make in in uh jumping in with Dr. hosting was you're saying this is not on a a public road because this is a private community. However, if we only have 20 people 20
homes occupied at this point, if I'm not mistaken, it's 196 homes together, that's not even you're not even talking 25%. We can't How do you go by a small percentage of the people who can live in this community?
Look, they they're selling the homes and this is what they're hearing that the people would like to see this be a house of worship. They own the property. They're here requesting it. It's a permitted use. It's not like we're asking for a use variance. You're allowed to do a house of worship here. >> Okay.
>> Wasn't Wasn't a clubhouse part of the conditions of this thing? >> Not a condition of approval. No, >> it wasn't part of what the planning board asked for. >> Yeah, Mr. Just an amenity. I I apologize for interrupting. I I appreciate Miss
Jennings standing. She wasn't at the hearing, so she keeps telling us that this is what was done. And that's fine. Quite frankly, let's get the testimony from witnesses andor the public and if necessary to transfer. I don't want you necessarily to get into
a fight with the applicant's attorney. >> She's doing her job. >> You're doing yours. So, >> agreed. Agreed. Let's ask the questions we want to ask and >> from the witnesses that they that are presented. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Just to continue with our job then
uh there are 40 affordable housing units and these housing units are for purchase and that's why you have the condominium association. U will these residents have full access to the amenities available within the site?
>> Yes. >> Okay. You know these these are uh 10 buildings four units each which are clustered from the market rate uh values. Usually affordable housing units are construct
that are constructed in Jackson are rentals and rented and managed by the affordable housing agencies. Why are these units for purchase? >> It's really just a cho a choice. I'm sure.
>> I'm sorry. I can't hear you. >> Is it working? >> Yes. >> All right. So, I'm sorry, Dr. Hson. What I was saying was it's it's the applicant's choice. And as you I'm sure are very well aware, the board can't dictate a form of ownership for for any of this. And their their opinion is they
believe that they should be sold. Well, these are affordable homes. Who decides the eligibility of the purchases? >> And there's supposed to be a lottery where there's affordable homes. Correct. That's all managed by a completely different entity, the affordable units.
They are not managed by the owner of the property or the HOA. It's uh CP GH. They're in charge of the marketing of the affordable units, accepting the applications and doing the lottery. So
that is the applicants not involved in that. The homeowners association is not involved in that. That's a separate and distinct entity. Who is the townships affordable housing? Um yeah, they work for the township technically >> also. >> Who does who does the marketing of
these? And the I think want to say the entity is CPGH. They're they do a lot of affordable housing all over the state for many municipalities. So they work for the municipality. They're in charge of the marketing. They're in charge of everyone's filing their applications. Um
and they're in charge of running the lottery. >> Okay. Now, is there a real estate company involved in the project at all? >> Yes, of There's a real estate company involved uh working with the property owner to for the sales >> and is it the same firm that handles the
market rate cond uh town houses? >> No, I'm talking for the market rate. There's a separate listing agent broker who takes care of the market rate. The affordable again is all done by the affordable housing liaison that works
for the township. >> That's incorrect. CPGH Donna is is the uh administrative agent. So >> as the municipal housing leaison uh some of the affordable housing projects within the town are monitored by us the
township and some are monitored by administrative agents. Uh Acuity being one firm u the firm in charge of uh this development is another one. And uh I mean it's it's not a requirement that it needs to be the township. It just needs
to be somebody. And to answer your questions about the lottery. There are uh I believe they're regulated by the the state because I have to report to DCA. So uh they have their own processes and procedures on how they randomize and a system of checks and balances for their applications because that was one
of the questions that I did ask. >> Okay. sort of sale agent for for these condos has nothing to do with the affordable housing. >> Strictly just talking affordable housing. That's all I can speak on. >> Okay. Now, the the amenities that were removed previously
as the pool, the dog walk, the pickle ball court. So now you have the only amenities left are a couple of tots as you call them, two half basketball courts, a splash park, and passive open space. So for these people who may not
be part of the religious community, where where is their recreation area? Where where are their amenities? You you just forget you're just cutting people off and isolating them in in one
part. And who will control the amenities as to the days of usage? Is it the HOA or the condo association? Great question. >> So there there's two associations here. >> Dr. Who decides on the usage of the
amenities which are right next to the proposed house of worship. >> That would I believe would be under the homeowners association. However, that testimony would be better done by the applicant's attorney um who we could bring up to give homeowners association
testimony. It's not my expertise. Well, well then then >> is is there anybody to supply statement of operations testimony? >> How the house of worship's going to work? Yes. The architect's going to get into that. >> What about anybody from the applicant? Is there any
>> Well, the applicant is the developer. They don't run the house of worship. >> I'm just saying some of his questions may be better off. >> They can come up and answer those types of questions. Sure. >> Not really not site engineer. We're on site engineer right now. Just I'm I'm just quoting from our
planners report. The one of the sentences he has is the proposed new use would be reduced to only benefiting the residents that would belong to the congregation. Now in my opinion the perception is that
non- congregation residents particularly without a clubhouse will not have a quality of life one will expect in this community which they're entitled to. Also, um, so I was not on the board. Let me just put this on the record. U, none
of us were on the board at the time that this was originally approved in 200, I believe it was February of 19. I did join the board in July of 2021. So, I was here for the second hearing. And according to the resolution, it clearly states, "The clubhouse facility is seen
as part of the grand entrance. The clubhouse facility is seen as part of the grand entrance with the design predicated upon creating a village green field with each unit having the opportunity to take advantage of green space. These were your words. Um, so I'm
a little confused how if we're changing the clubhouse into something else, how we're keeping with the original intention of the approval in 20 in in 2019 and again in 2022. We're not they're they're not
opening to open space there. It's not something everybody can use. It's not part of a grand entrance. How is that? Help me. Help us understand how that's part of a grand entrance. >> I don't think the entrance changes at all. We'll have the architect testified. That's really an architectural question. I think it's going to visually look the
same. >> Right. The building that we're proposing to construct is the exact same building that was approved there. There's really no visible changes to it. Say for the small addition in the back. And again, as Miss Jennings said, we'll let the architect give that testimony. But the the vision, the open space, it all
remains exactly the same. There's no changes to that. The simple thing we're talking about, >> there's one hold, let me finish, Dr. Simple thing we're talking about, whether or not it's okay for people to pray in this. >> We can't hear you. >> They got to pull. >> I said the simple thing we're talking
about here today is whether or not it's appropriate for people to be allowed to pray in this approved assembly year. Well, if it was kept if it was >> Hold on. >> Excuse me. >> Hold on. >> So, why don't why don't we let him
continue with the variance testimony that he's putting on. >> Excuse me. >> Hold on a second. There there's one thing that's bothering me with all this. There is one fundamental change and you're taking the clubhouse out. Why don't you just take three or four condos out and build something there? Because
this way if somebody does win the lottery and they're not part of that community, they still have their clubhouse or divide the clubhouse into two two parts. I mean pe people who are not going not part of this the religion that that's
building the house of worship have a right have their rights too and they have their rights to to the amenities that they think are available to them. And it's is it's just it's you you're you're making it sound simple when it's
not. And it's basically the use of the building that's important. Not the design. It's the use of the building. >> The use as approved, Dr. Hoffstein, is an assembly use. The use as proposed is an assembly use. So the use is the same. We're simply talking about >> the same. One is a house of worship. One
is the clubhouse. Clubhouse has completely different things. In the community I have, we have a clubhouse. It has all kinds of amenities. >> Excuse me. We've asked everyone to be respectful while someone's speaking. We cannot get through this if we continue
to have outbursts. Dr. Austinine, continue, please. >> Okay, >> let's continue. >> Continue. Just remember to hold the microphone up, please. So mo moving on we were talking about variances that are required for the
application. The the next one that I had on my list of things to talk about was the number of wall signs where one wall sign is permitted and two are being proposed. This was actually was approved in the resolution that was adopted on February the 2nd 2025.
The number of signs previously was approved at two signs. However, at that time, the area of the wall signs was to be under what was permitted here, which would be 80 square ft. Whereas now, the applicant is seeking to increase that
size of those signs to 96 square ft. So, in in my opinion, as a planner, this is a very dimminimous change and will only be visible to people inside the community. So, I believe it's a small change, but that is one thing that is being changed.
Can I ask you um a question on the signs? Yeah. What's actually on the signs? What's advertised? I'll call it advertised on the signs. Is that changing? For example, did it used to say clubhouse and now it says house of worship or
mikvah or whatever? >> Right. I think the architect could give you better testimony on the signage. I'll wait. I got all night. I'll wait. Not really. >> I'm glad you do. 5:30. >> I'm leaving at 10:30.
>> I want to go home and talk my kids in. I don't know about you. >> And some other points that were brought up talking about planning in the planners letter. Talk about landscaping. I put together a copy. Anthony, if you could refer to exhibit
A4. So, what this is, this is a copy of all the approved landscaping plans put together so that we have one overall plan so the board could see. This is the landscaping that is approved for the community and this is what we're proposing to build. We're proposing no
changes to the landscaping that was approved as part of this community. It hasn't been constructed yet because the community is still under construction, but we are proposing to install all of the landscaping as it was previously approved. We're not proposing any changes, but we believe that we are
still creating substantial green space and substantial landscaped areas. If, however, the board would like to see some additional landscaping around the house of worship, that certainly could be added. Certainly something we could talk about. >> Yep. There there'll be a public comment
period and a cross- examination period. Everybody will have a chance. All right. So then moving on, talking about other engineering issues, there there are no changes to any of the approved parking. The parking is adequate for the house of worship and we're not proposing to
change it at all. We're also >> you adding a ma and making it bigger. >> Excuse me. We've asked everyone to not speak. Thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. You said that you're not increasing the parking and I asked but you're increasing you're increasing the
square footage because you're adding the mikvah. >> Correct. So so there is proposed to be a mikvah that is intended to be constructed as part of a phase construction. We wish to build the house of worship now and then the mikvah later as a phase two. The mikvah facility
itself, a ritual bathing facility is is really only utilized on on Friday night and has limited use. So, we don't believe that there are any parking issues. And again, this facility is meant to be utilized by people in the community. So, there they'll be parking at their homes and generally walking to
the facility. So, we don't believe there are any parking issues. And more important than that, we meet your ordinance as far as parking goes. And we're not requesting any variances for that, nor any changes to the approved plan. And the same thing goes for storm water management. And the same thing
could also be said for our lightning plan. Again, all approved and we're proposing no changes. >> All right. So, just to be clear, the clubhouse is being built now. As you stated, the mikvah will be built at a later date. >> That's correct. We would like to have that as a phase two >> and primarily used only on Friday
evenings. >> I'll let somebody else give that testimony, Madam Chair. I know enough to be dangerous. >> Yeah. And I don't think that's accurate because I've done Mickfan applications myself. So, we'll have the architect talk about >> Thank you.
I don't know. I think that I think really, as I said in my opening remarks, the planning and engineering testimony here, I think, is is is very simple. It really just comes down to the use of the structure. The structure is approved and we're making a minor change to it. So, in my opinion, there isn't a lot to talk
about from an engineering or a planning standpoint here. Say for the use, >> right? So, I'm not I bear with me. I'm not sure I'm going to ask you this properly. So, you brought up we talked a little bit about the mikvah. You may not be the person. So, please if I'm if you're not, tell me. We can go on to the next person.
How is So, we're expanding the building at a later date to include a mikvah. How is that not an expansion of the original uh approval? >> I don't know that I asked that properly, Mr. Shay. Did I say that right?
I I I think what she's referencing is that how is it not an expansion of a non-conforming use therefore being subject to a D2 variance? >> Okay. So, first of all, non-conforming uses are before zoning. So, never would be a D2 variance, non-conforming use
out. Uh again the de the dev variance that was given here related to the residential units and the number of residential units not the accessory recreational amenities that go with it. >> I I understand this position of the
applicant but there is a resolution indicating that there are there were a number of conditions in 2020 and 20 and reaffirmed in 2022 via the resolutions. I'll let the planner weigh our planner, the board planner weigh in on it at the
appropriate time. Um, but they were within the resolution indicating that, you know, one was uh green space, one was the clubhouse, one was uh tot lots, one was um I believe the the walking
trail. There there was dog park. There was a number of them, but they were >> they were fundamental elements of those resolutions. Right, wrong, indifferent. that's the way that the resolution was written. Um, and I I believe that's what Madame Chairwoman is is asking about.
It's it's whether or not this change to the structure itself is is representative um of a D2 expansion of a non-conforming use. I it's it's a question for the planner if he can weigh in.
>> Happy to, Mr. Shay. I mean, to me, the answer is very easy. is that both of the uses of the house of worship and the mikvah are permitted uses here in the zone. So, they can't be a non-conforming use. They're permitted. >> Yeah, Madame Chair. >> Yes, Mr. Peters.
>> I don't want to get stuck on this one issue, but we seem to be circling back to it. Um, and I guess first, Mr. Stevens, thank you for your testimony. You were the engineer and planner for the use variance application, correct? That is
correct. >> Um so during the use variance and it's referenced in I believe the use variance resolution and the original site plan resolution the concept of a village green the integration of passive
and active amenities on the site and there was a phrase called the design dedicated to the conservation of open space and pvious coverage. the resolution's words, not mine. In the LC zone,
a clubhouse isn't a permitted use, is it? >> That would be correct. Yes. >> So, wouldn't the clubhouse had to have received a use variance >> in order to have been approved and moved on to resolution compliance and construction?
>> The the project received the use variance. We're not arguing that point. I think you're parsing words here. >> No, Mr. Peters, no, I completely disagree. We We have been before this board to make changes to this plan several times, all of which have been
done without the use variance. I I think that the the thought that this is an expansion of a non-conforming use or that some other use variance is required for this application, I I think is uh is incorrect. That would be my opinion. >> Fair enough.
Um again for for the board members and and perhaps at the proper time we if I don't think we get done tonight if if the application gets adjourned perhaps we need to have the resolutions and even the transcript
of the meeting that talks about the use application. Um because while Mr. Stevens has given testimony and he was he was offered this evening as the the engineer and he he sort of jumped into some easy planning testimony and we haven't heard from the
planner yet. We have comments in our report that as of now haven't been addressed and and they may be they may have been spelled out in the application package, but I don't know
that we've had testimony tonight about the approved clubhouse being an accessory use. and the applicant this evening suggesting that this new building is a permitted use and that the mikvah would be accessory. So we we change the uses from
what was originally approved to what's here now. So while they've if we were doing a normal application we'd say it's less worse because they've created something that's permitted. My concern simply is that
ignoring that clubouses were not permitted juices in the LC zone during the use variance application and now suggesting somehow that we don't need to revisit the use variance issue. I'm not convinced yet.
>> Thank you. like to continue. Sorry, I was just trying to look at the uh prior application >> from another resolution because we increased the clubhouse before made modifications to the recreational
amenities and did not seek use variance um based on the 2020 54 resolution. So not sure why it's coming up now, but um with that, why don't we either open up questions for the site engineer or I can move on to the next
witness. >> Okay. So let me ask you No, go ahead. So a less important question, but um Anthony, can you show A7? >> This one. Um I think everybody will like this one
better too because it's in color. the other one. Yeah, if you can expand that. Basically, so last time for the recreation uh you requested a height variance, right? So, so the height is going to
stay now because you received the height variance for the recreational area, right? So, you're just going to keep that >> building the building dimensions remain unchanged save forition for the phase two that we discussed, >> right? Um, and the mikvah, which is
what's new. If I said that right, if I said it wrong, I apologize. Is there a height? Are you Do you need a height variance for that? Will that be lower? Like, how does that how is that going to work? >> I'm going to let the architect give you that testimony. >> Okay, I'll wait for that, too, then. All right, thanks.
>> Yeah, I was zooming in on on the house of worship. Um, Anthony, in that section, I think this does help everyone. Do you do you just a little bit? Yeah. where where the actual house of worship is going to be. That center. Yeah, that's it.
That's all right. You can do it later because you can see the the the the mikvah and the signage also that that's directly there. Um Oh, okay. In the next page, you can then can you go to uh A8?
you don't mind? Yeah. Yeah. Right there. Right. Right there. Right there. Right there. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the height of the the mikvah here, right? Um Oh, I'm sorry. That's not for you. I'll wait. I'll wait for the uh for the engineer. Yeah. Okay.
>> Architect. >> He is the engineer. >> Oh, they all look alike. All right. Thank you. Any additional comments, Mr. Stevens? Madam >> Chair? >> No, Madam Chair, I think that's it for this evening. >> Any additional questions from the board
or comments for Mr. Stevens? >> Yes. >> Oh, Mr. Question. Thank you. I've kind of waited till he was done before I chime in. >> Um, during your testimony, you've reiterated twice that the use from a
clubhouse to a house of worship is the same, that it's a congregation area, >> an assembly use. Yes, >> assembly use. Correct. It is. >> So, is it So, is the house of worship a non-denominational house >> or not?
>> You have to let the applicant give that testimony. That's not for me. It's not it's not. >> So, let's let's let's go down the path and say it's not or even let's say it is. I >> I'll agree with you right there. It is for a synagogue with a mikvah.
>> Okay. So, does that change doesn't that change? Doesn't that make your testimony that it's the same use really not the same use? Because
if a there's not if a non member of the congregation or religion because they can obviously have guests come over and and attend. If a non-member wanted to use that
building, they could not. Correct. >> I would agree. >> All right. Thank you. >> Please. All right, Mr. Stevens. Any other comments or questions from anyone on the board? All right. We're going to What we're going to do is the board usually
takes testimony until 10:30. It is 10:05. We're going to open it to the public. You can come forward at this time and ask questions about anything that Mr. Stevens has testified to this evening. I know before anybody comes up, there's a lot of questions, a lot of comments, but let's please keep in mind
that it's only on what Mr. Stevens testified to this evening. >> Right. And and just uh let me just expand on that a little bit. Um Miss Jennings, is Mr. Stevens going to come back at the next hearing? >> Yes. >> Okay, perfect. All right. So, uh, next 25 or so or 20ish minutes, uh, it's just
going to be cross-examination questions. What that means is that, uh, you you ask him deliberate questions as to the testimony that he provided or answers that he gave. Um, it's not general comments that comes later. Um, we just confirm that Mr. Stevens will be back
next time. We don't get to you, then you'll be able to ask him cross-examination questions next time as well. That's not a problem. All right. So, uh, anybody who wants to come up and cross-examine Mr. Stevens. Oh, okay. We're we're racing to the
podium. All right. Gotcha. All right. >> Well, you won. So, congratulations. >> Good evening. >> Please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but truth? >> Yes, I do. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last for the record. >> My name is Susan Tabone.
>> Yep. >> My name is Susan Tabone. It's very loud. I live at six Aurora Circle, Barnick, New Jersey. I am a realtor in Jackson, New Jersey. I work for Kell Williams. I've been a realtor for over 20 years. >> You just got to speak into the microphone. >> Can yell if you have to. >> You can you can move it closer to you if
need be. Just move move it closer to you. There you go. >> Um I own the property right next to Grand Harmony. I own three building lots uh with other owners. I own lots 11, 12, and 13. Okay. Now, what we're addressing
here, and I know I have to address what I >> Yeah, it's if you have any questions for Mr. uh Mr. Stevens, um this is a cross-examination portion. Uh public comment will will come at another point in time. >> No, Mr. Stevens is with the JP um or
leads company, correct? >> Applicants engineer >> engineer and planner. So, so if you have any questions about engineering planning, now would be the time. >> Okay. Um I have other issues with JP's company that they had promised us >> frontage and all. Okay. So in the
religious um the clubhouse here. Okay. And I just want to say something here. Um I'm going to read something to you. Prohibit prohibition of discrimination of the federal fair housing act. >> No ma'am. It has to be cross-examination. >> What Mr. Stevens testified. So if you
have questions as to what he specifically said on the record or answered on the record, what what you're doing is it's called a a general comment that that will come at the close of the cross- examination. It'll just happen next time. >> I see. Yeah. >> All right. So they are he's constructing
this uh mikvah and also the clubhouse. Okay. And how large is the clubhouse going to be actually? And um I'm I want to ask question about what kind of signage is going to be um because they're asking for maximum signage um in
in the area in the community. Um >> Mr. Steven, square footage of the uh clubhouse and the I mean the house of worship and the mikvah. >> So these are all better questions for the architect. wasn't stuff that I testified to, but I'll just read you the
facts as as I know them, and she can give you further architectural testimony as we move on. The house of worship is 5,533 square feet, and the mikvah, as I did testify to because that's an addition,
and engineers, we like math, it's 856 square feet. >> Okay. Um another question is um this as these gentlemen had said this is um supposed to be a clubhouse. I live in adult community where there is a clubhouse. We have bowling, we have
botchi, we have all the amenities. So now if my board turned around and said this is going to be a religious community now you're cutting out a lot of people. That's what I'm saying. >> If you have any questions for Mrs. Stevens that you can you can formulate that into a question for him.
>> Okay. All right. So, how is this going to a question? How is this going to affect the rest of the community who are not going to be of use of this uh clubhouse so called house of worship? How is that going to benefit the rest of
the community? Me as a realtor. >> Well, you have to let him answer first. Yeah. >> Yeah. So the the application that we're bringing forward tonight is being brought simply because the have asked for it. That's why we're
here. This is a request from them. >> But I think I think the question though I've asked everyone to be getting the request from some of the residents who are currently there or the owner of the property. It is it is assumed even though I hate
that word. It is assumed that everyone will not be of the same foundational belief. >> Right. >> How I think what the woman and correct me if I'm wrong ma'am. I think what she's asking is how will everyone the broader everyone who's not of the same community be able to partake of the club
the house of worship. >> Okay. For instance, I'm a realtor. I have client ma'am. >> Let him answer. Let him answer. >> Go ahead. >> So So I do not have an answer to that question. It's operational. It's something that will need to be delved
into deeper with other witnesses. >> All right. So, I have a buyer that wants to buy into Grand Harmony. Now, they're expecting a clubhouse. They're expecting a pool. They're expecting a dog walk. They're expecting all the amenities that come with a
clubhouse with HOA. Now, if I turn around and there it is a house of worship. Now, I am steering my client into an area remember to phrase it into a question for Mr. Steam is based on what he testified to. >> I mean, how do you feel about that? That
I'm like steering this. This is against the law. >> All right. To do this, >> he's a site engineer. These are not site engineering questions. >> If if we could just keep keep it to relevant testimony that he testified to >> and I will come back at another time because I know this >> a lot of what you're saying are general
comments. You'll have you'll have more than enough >> okay >> time to do that. >> So, I'd like to know when I can come back to do that. Well, at the end of when we're done with public session, we'll find a date for them to come back. >> I have a lot of questions are the questions about what? >> So, yeah. So, what happens is that the process just so everybody's familiar
with it in the room because it's some new faces, right? Um and I'm not typically at the zoning board, so there's a lot of new faces, but um what happens is that uh we have cross-examination. So, all the experts present, there's cross-examination of the experts at the end of that cross-examination phase. And at the end
of the expert phase, there's a general comment period where anybody could say anything that they want about, you know, about how they feel or things that they think are relevant to the application, things like that. So, so once the expert testimony is closed, once the cross-examination is closed, then we'll get to the public comment.
>> Okay, that sounds good. >> You got it. >> Thank you. Thank you. All right. >> Elanor Hannam. Oh, sorry. >> Yep. >> Elanar Hannam, seven evergreen court, Jackson, New Jersey. >> You swear in affirm tell the truth the whole truth and tell the truth.
>> I do. >> All right. >> So, um, earlier there was testimony discussing the different changes that have been made. Correct. You'd have to ask a a more >> okay >> question. I don't understand what you're asking.
>> You you had discussed the different changes >> um I believe it was at the zoning board. Um back in 2024, uh the pickle ball courts were taken
out, the dog park was taken out, and the main pool was taken out. Correct. We made changes to the original amenities package. That is correct. Yes. >> Okay. And when that was done,
that was done because the developer wanted that done. >> Yes. The the developer asked to make the changes to the plans. We made those changes. As his engineer, I'm working for him. We brought them to the board and those changes were approved.
>> Okay. So, did the developer go and amend the HOA contract that runs with the deed with the county clerk? >> I can't speak to the HOA documents. Another witness is going to have to do that.
>> They have not. >> The rules go for everybody. We can we've got to keep quiet. Miss Hannah, continue. So, you know, the undue process for a house of worship to be changed in the bylaws that would cannot bylaws that would cannot I mean that has
to be done. >> Miss Hannah, if you could just identify another witness that will testify that it has been done. So, >> it has not been done. I >> I'm not going to debate with her. >> Miss Jennings, letter finish, please. M. >> I went on today and I printed this today.
It has not been entered with the Ocean County clerk. >> Can you clarify for everyone what exactly? >> Yeah, we just have to identify the document. >> I am going to clarify that what I am holding in my hand is the master deed of Grand Harmony
condominium entered with the Ocean County Clerk 918 2024. So those formal changes have not been made and they have not been made >> in two years. >> Yeah. If we just do cross-examination
questions. >> So you know, so here's kind of like my question. Um currently there are 20 occupants that have occupied 20 families have occupied uh this project, you know, their homes
there. Is that correct? >> It's my understanding. Yes. >> Okay. And 96 of those homes have been sold so far. >> Also my understanding. Yes. >> Okay. But you did testify that um it was the people that came to the developer
that is requesting this. >> Yes. That that was what my also my understanding ma'am. It's uh again I work for for the developer for Orleans. They asked me to do it. So that's where I'm getting my information from. the rest would have to come from another way.
>> Okay. So, there are still a hundred units that have not been sold and we >> and we have um the affordable housing units that have not been sold. So, my question is what has changed? Did the
market change or did the demographics you were marketing to change? >> Again, not the site engineers question. So we could just keep it to the testimony he presented. Yeah. >> So I don't understand how we are making
more changes if it has not been recorded to begin with. >> And he doesn't record these documents. It's not his testimony. >> He was testimony made the testimony that these changes were made. >> I said they were made because that's what the applicant told me. We're going
to have them come up next time and they can testify. this is not the right witness to ask these questions. >> Yeah. So, so what happens if um let's say they have somebody from the applicant testify as to whatever documents are filed with the county clerk that that may be
somebody who was more familiar with the with the process. >> Okay. So, well, I was asking the question because there were he had made and Miss Jennings had made numerous comments regarding the HOA and regarding all of that. So, they're very valid
questions. I'm just entering the fact that it was never actually legally done because this runs with the deed. It runs with the land. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Do you affirm to tell the truth, the
whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> All right. And state your name and spell your last for the record. >> Schlommo Klein 166. >> Oh, into the microphone. 166 Tranquility, Jackson, New Jersey. >> All right. >> Sorry. Name again, sir. >> Schlommo Klein. >> Thank you.
>> Um, just to clarify, um, you said that there are I I live in Grand Army. There are 20 living people in in are they religious or are they are they religious Jews or are they uh non nonJ? I don't
think we personally have that information, but the applicants represented might be able to answer that question. >> So, you're telling me >> that's not something that Mr. Stevens testified to. >> So, you testified that the interest of the a of the homeowners is to have a
house of worship. >> That's what we were told by the applicant's representative. Yes. So, they'll can come up and testify, but that's not really questions to ask Mr. Stevens. Just to be fair, you did say it. I >> I'm not a witness. No, not you. No, not
you, >> Mr. Martins. Excuse me. What he said was there was approximately 20 families. I don't I don't believe he indicated about who or what the demographics were. >> I I think somebody from the applicant >> understand I understand the confusion.
So that being that being said, 97 applicants already went under contract and we're assuming that there are are of the the want and need of a house of worship.
>> Again, that's just the direction we're getting from the applicant, not anything to do with what the site engineer is charged with doing. >> Got it. Thank you very much. >> Thank Excuse me, sir. Could you please come back up? I I just have a couple of
questions to ask you. >> Why did you decide to purchase your townhouse in in this in this community? >> When I heard that there was houses for sale for $650,000, I jumped on it. I I I know that in in
Lake in Lakewood, it's impossible to find a house under 1.2 1.3 million. So, when someone told me that there was going to be a house that would have two sinks that would fit my the needs of my family, I I jumped on it right away.
>> Okay. What amenities did the seller's agent promise you? Did they promise you basement apartments? Kitchens? Two kitchens? >> No. No. B no basement apartments. There's There's no apartment. >> Did they promise you a synagogue in the
community? They did not promise us a synagogue as the clubhouse. They told us that we would have access to a synagogue as currently they gave us one of the houses that are there that are the model homes and they told us that we could use
it as a house of worship worship. >> But did they tell you that the house of worship would be a permanent part of the community as the community grows? Um they told us that they would want that to be the original outcome, but that they couldn't
promise that. >> Jay, >> yeah, Mr. Hops, we just uh we have to keep it to the to the legal tests for purposes of Rupa. So, we don't want to >> No, >> thank you, sir, for coming forward.
>> Raymond Cohen's. >> All right. Sorry, I >> Raymond Cohen, Six Hazeline Lane, Westlake Community, Jackson, New Jersey. >> You swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. >> I certainly do. >> All right, >> Mr. O'Neal, I have a quick question for
you. A year ago, my daughter tried to purchase a unit. We first went to your sales building in the front of your community, and we were told, "We don't sell anything here. You've got to buy it from the from the >> from the people selling the community, which we did. We finally found out who
it was. There's a question here. >> Well, it's got it's got So, what happens with cross-examination is that it it's it's got to be >> relevant to the testimony. >> Okay. It is very it is very relevant. I'll get there. I promise. I'll get there. I promise. >> Guys, I >> Mr. O'Neal, can you please tell me why
my daughter was told that she cannot? My name is Raymond Cohen, a proud American Jew. >> Who's Mr. I was my daughter told she cannot buy a gun in your community. >> Mr. Cohen, look, look at me. Look at me. All right. So, when the when the applicants
um who whoever their they're they're fact witness, their professional, their statement of operations person, whoever is going to testify for them, you can ask if they, you know, if they testify as to how they operate and what they do, you can ask cogent relevant questions
cross-examination wise of that witness. What what happens is that we have to slice each each expert up as to what they testify to. So So the engineer testifies to engineering, they get cross-examinated as to engineering. The planner gets uh you know puts on his
planning testimony, then he gets cross-examinated as to his planning. Same thing with the architect, same thing with traffic. So So I I get where you're coming from. Um I understand the question. >> You told me that this was a that this was an open community. >> No. No. Was that not Was that not said?
>> Okay. I I understand. I understand. Why could my daughter not purchase a unit until after I went to the old mayor, the new mayor, and then I was told by you, if you have a discrimination issue, you have to go to the state. And you can't
sit there and tell me that there's not discrimination in this whole deal here. >> I listen. >> How can I understand? I understand your perspective. >> Not one Jackson person there >> sold in Lakewood. >> Mr. Cohen, I get it. You You will have
your chance at general. You will. That's not Okay. So, just to be clear to everybody here, boards operate boards operate off of what's called Robert Rules of Order. In the Robert's rules of order, you segment everything up. You
will have a chance to put all of this on record. Everything. Okay? whether it be in general comment or by cross-examination of the relevant expert, you know, their statement of operations expert who will be presenting. I I'm assuming at the next one, right? You will have these the chance to to direct these questions that
you have to the to the relevant person. But as to >> we we have >> Okay, another another question. I live in Westlake, Mr. Okay. What stops Westlake then from coming and saying that their ballroom now is a a thing for
all religious religious outlets and we're not going to pay tax on those on that clubhouse anymore. Why should they be given >> you have to keep the questions relevant to the testimony presented? >> Hear me out, please. >> Right. >> I'm a resident. I understand your frustration. Okay, I do.
I hear you. I see it and I sense your frustration. But bear with me here. We have to follow the rules. Okay? Otherwise, we put the township and the board at risk. We have to follow Robert's rules of orders. So, the rule says their professional testifies and we
get to question him based on his testimony. Your testim your questions, sir, are going to be perfect when their expert comes out with their statement of operations. That will be the perfect time for you, Mr. Cohen, to ask your questions and get answers. He's an
engineer and a planner. He's not the person. He didn't tell them who could sell to and when or they had to go somewhere else. I get trust me sir I get your frustration but this is not the unfortunately for you this he's not the witness who can answer your question. So
when we set a date to come back and they bring up their expert who testifies to their statement of operations and who testifies to how it was marketed and when and all those things. Perfect timing for your questions. And ma'am, if you don't mind, I I understand you're frustrated, but we are constrained too
on how we have to run things. And I do apologize. I know it's frustrating to sit here all this time. I get it, but try to understand the constraints that we're under as well. Mr. Cohen, please, when you it's time to come back. Please make sure you're here.
>> Okay. When will that be? We're is when we're done with the public testimony, we will set a date for the next um for when they come back for when they >> And I want everybody to know I have nothing against the ultraorththodox community. >> I understand that we are >> my whole thing is that it's an it should be open to all
>> Mr. Cohen. I understand we are not >> in no way do we insinuate that, sir. In no way. >> Yes. give these three and then um we'll allow the three who are the three gentlemen who are standing and then at the again
at the next Yes sir, you're included. He turned around and look back like who me? Sorry. Um so after these three gentlemen speak, we will um close the public session. uh the attorneys and our zoning officer will set a date for them to return and then you will know when you
can come back and have your opportunity to cross-examine their other witnesses and make statements. Sir, thank you for your patience. >> All right. >> Do you Petro? >> Should I spell my last? Hang on one second. >> Have the last name for me. >> P E T R O.
>> Okay. >> 22 Nature's Way Lake, New Jersey. >> Right. Do you swear or affirm, tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing? All right. Please. We've already done that, so you're good. >> Okay. First of all, I appreciate everybody's concern for the for the residents of Grand Harmony that we should have whatever we need. Um, my question to you is that you agreed
before that it's only about 20 like the 20 homeowners that moved in and maybe the 96 people that are under contract that they're the ones who want the house of worship. My question to you is that everybody knows that there are hundreds of people from our community that want to buy these houses. These houses never
reached the market. As soon as people heard of it, these houses were gone. They flew off the market and everybody that's waiting to get these houses, every single one of them wants it to be a house of worship. With regard to the affordable housing, thousands of people of our community have put into the
raffle and most probably overwhelming >> if you could ask a question, not not a statement. >> So my question to you is why are you agreeing that it's already the 20 people that are living there and maybe the 96 people that are under contract? >> It's every single person that will buy a house in this community is going to want
a house. >> You have you have to let them in. never going to reach the market at these houses. As soon as they open up sales, the over people can already you have to let him answer. You have to let him answer. >> I spoke to Mr. Cohen. I'm going to speak to you. I hear your frustration, but we just explained very clearly and I
apologize and I'm getting a little upset, but I'm tired of explaining the same thing. >> Mr. Sheay was extremely clear. You can question on what was testified to. He his testimony clearly. I'm a nerd, sir. I take copious notes. He clearly stated
there are approximately 20 families currently living. Did he not? >> Yes, he did. >> 20 families currently living. Then Miss Jennings stated it was the applicant who requested that they change from a clubhouse to a house of worship. Nobody stated
everybody didn't want it. Those were not words he ever said. So we have to be very careful for a clear record, sir. So again, if you want to talk about who wants what and all those things when we have a statement of operations person come when they return, I would suggest you return at this time unless you have
a specific question about his engineering test. >> But he testified and he made it as if it's not such such a simple thing and that he wasn't sure if all the residents would want it. But that's not true. Everybody knows that all the >> resist I'm not dis >> we're not talking about personal
opinions right now. >> Hear me please. I'm not disagreeing with you. all 100 and I guess it's 96 units could actually be from your community. What I'm saying is he is an engineer. He can't testify to that. I can't testify to that. >> Right. Okay. I understand. Yeah. I just
wanted to clarify that because everybody's so concerned for our community and I really appreciate everyone's concern. But if you're so concerned for our community, then this is what we want and this is how the community is going to look. >> If you have a question, if you have a question to ask him, now is the time. >> That was my question. Thank you very much.
>> You guys are great. Thank Can I ask you can I ask you a question if I would? Yeah. >> Um, what makes you so certain the rest of the houses are going to be filled by your community? >> Excellent question. Can I answer that, please?
>> Yeah, please. Yeah, that's why I asked. >> Okay. Everyone Everybody knows that the houses in Grand Harmony never reached the market. As soon as people got word that there's going to be housing, there was a list. There's, I believe, 4 or 500 people on the list who want to get those houses. Everybody knows the houses were never on the market. It it went by word
of mouth and the houses were were eaten up were taken right away. So there is a list of hundreds of >> Mr. Petro, can I make a suggestion? Save your comments for the next meeting, please. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> You can answer my question in the next meeting. >> Sure. Okay. >> All right. Thanks. >> See you. Thank you very much. You guys are great.
>> Thank you, sir. >> All right. You swear affirm that tell truth the whole truth nothing but the truth. >> Yes. >> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> My name is Tony Louisey. I live at five turnbridge court, Jackson, New Jersey. >> All right. >> Question I have uh the clubhouse. What
was the plans for the clubhouse and what what were you going to have in there? >> So the the plans for the clubhouse are are exactly the same as the plans for the house of worship. There is really no material changes to the plan. It was meant to be an assembly use. That's what
was approved and that is what we're proposing to build. So there's very little modifications here. It's simply a matter of of religious use. That's really what we're talking about. >> So when you say assembly use, I live in I live in I live in a an adult community. We have a clubhouse. We have
a ballroom. We have a card room. We have a pool room. What is What was this? What was going to be in this in in the clubhouse there? Well, we're going to have the architect will testify as to what the clubhouse looks like and what the proposed house of worship and you
will see they're very similar, but she's going to testify what's actually in the clubhouse. >> The other question I have, could I talk about the streets? Are the streets wide enough? >> You can ask questions of the engineer regarding the streets. >> Are the streets wide enough? Are the streets wide enough if a car parks on
the left side and the right side of the street, would a fire truck be able to go by? So yes, the streets here exceed what is required by the residential site improvement standards. I know I don't know what developments you're referring to in town. There are a few multif family developments in town that have
very narrow roads. This is not one of them. >> Okay. So there is ample space for >> there is yes we exceed what we're required to have. >> Okay. And the other question, I don't know if they if you could answer this, but right now that site is still under construction and you have people moving in there and they have children and I
noticed that when the school bus stops there, the the kids walk right across the street into where they live. Is that a safety issue that we need to worry about? And how do you give a CO? I know the township gives the CO to the residents that that move in there, but
how do you have it when you're still doing construction work? >> Yeah. So um I'll I'll just I'll talk about the process for a second and then let the the applicants expert uh testify to that. So what what happens um with these type applications you have the uh
zoning board application uh if it gets approved what happens that then uh they have to uh meet all the outside agency approvals uh you know D pineland sometimes um county soils county planning board uh you know traffic
safety fire the whole nine yards right uh that's typically a a year or two process if they get all that they submit for a zoning permit uh if They if they complete the resolution compliance period, they go in for the zoning permit. Um then they can take that
zoning permit and bring it to the building department for a construction permit and then it gets um submitted to all the relevant um sub departments like electrical, plumbing, uh building, all that stuff that's regulated by by federal code. Um so it's it's a simple
but complicated answer because it spans a number of years and it and it crosses probably three or four different departments and about nine different subd departments. So that's my answer to your question, but I'll let the um I'll let the applicants professional answer the rest.
So it was it was a very long question, but the answer is Mr. Sheay eloquently said it is that there is a process in town and once a CO is granted the the homeowners have a right to move into their home the same as any other homeowner in town. And as far as the the
the busing here in town, that's not something that even the applicant has any control over. That's that's done by the busing companies and the board of education and certainly not my expertise. >> Okay. And what about the roads coming out of the complex going on to Harmony Road? That that road that road is going
to be inundated with cars. Right now it gets backed up at 5:00. >> Miss Jennings, will your traffic engineer be testifying? Yeah, but there's going to be no change in the traffic patterns, but he'll be here. >> How could that How could you say that? >> Um, um, the reason I'm asking is
obviously as an engineer, I don't know that he's the person who should answer that question. That's why I correct that. >> So, again, sir, I would encourage you right to please come back. We're when we're done with the gentleman behind you is done, we will set up a date. The time
will stay the same, but a date for them to return. You can come back and question every other witness and then make comments at the end. >> Great. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you for coming forward. >> Please state your name. It's getting it's getting late. Uh do you swear affirm tell the truth to hold the truth? Nothing but the truth. >> I do.
>> All right. Please state your name and spell your last of the record. >> Michael Cook O one Carlson Court Jackson. >> All right. >> Right. Um I I got really I understand from the engineering standpoint that there's not a whole lot of change here. Um but one of my major concerns with this whole thing and I have many but one
of them is traffic um and parking. So I know in November 2024 um when you came before the board you uh were given a grant to expand the footh of the clubhouse. Um at that time it was stated that there would be no additional parking needed for two reasons. one that
the development was overparked as it was and that the um clubhouse was going to be for generally basically private use only while you know if someone had a party someone else could come in but generally for private use and the residents would be walking to it. Um is this house of worship still going to be
for private use of the residents only and if so how is that going to be enforced? >> So that's really a question of the architect who was going to talk about the operations not the site engineer. Okay. And what about parking? Has parking been taken into account if this
is not going to be a private entity um to afford outside use which will cause a shortage of parking. My pro my concern is that the parking and overflow parking side streets and neighboring streets was going to cause a problem within the community and side streets outside of
it. >> So un understood and and my testimony did speak to that. We analyze the parking for this facility and it does comply with the township's house of worship uh ordinance. Um I do have another question. You said
that the um I say that that the concept behind the clubhouse and it was stated before that that was part of a a grand entrance coming into the community and you said that it doesn't change anything. But I think you're look you're looking at um use versus appearance. And
when you're talking about a grand entrance, people are looking at it as a an appearance, not an appearance kind of thing. A use kind of thing. Look, these are the amenities and that's what was sold to the township to begin with. Um and this isn't what was originally sold to the township.
>> We're going to have the architect talk about that because I believe there's little change to the grand entrance. Right. If you could >> formulate that in a question. >> I will I will bring that back up when we get to the comments because I think it bears a little bit more than just a
question because I understand the engineer and I understand that he's limited on that aspect. I have one other question. This is more of a formaldi question. When when you guys do another meeting in order for we received a letter for this meeting, is that same kind of letter going to be then be
issued that for the dates of the next No. Okay. Okay. I will establish a meeting this a date this evening. >> Right. So, uh what happens is that we we're going to establish another date. Um
just to reiterate, I would have the applicant take into consideration the verbiage of their notice. I know I brought it up in the beginning. I'm just reiterating it now. That's the applicant's decision. Um, you know, with that being said, there'll be
a date certain as to when we're coming back. >> And one other thing, there is a change in traffic pattern, by the way. >> Absolutely, there is. >> 100%. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for coming forward. Um, okay. At this time, Mr. Shay, Miss
Jennings, Miss Tumalo a date for them to return. >> Can I just ask one question? >> Oh, sure. >> When we come back, because it ties into us coming back, are we going to open with continuation of cross-examination
of this witness? >> Yeah. So, we'll we'll open with cross-examination of this witness and and let everything go through and and the board can ask questions. You have to >> ask tonight. Yeah. We'll >> have another shot at this is a continuation. Yeah. We have a date.
>> Does the applicant have any requests for a date? >> I'm sorry. >> Was June 3rd available? >> June 3rd. Uh, we have freedom final site plan with use variance on the board. So, >> and who's the applicant? >> Uh, Enzo. >> Sorry. Uh, Mr. Stevens isn't available
then. >> Okay. >> Now you're into available. What's your other application? >> July 15th. >> I would not recommend that. >> Yeah, especially August. >> We don't have those dates yet. We won't have them till >> reorg.
>> Well, then carry it to um the July meeting, but we'll carry it further, >> right? We'll So, we'll put it on the uh agenda for the July meeting and then as we get closer get we'll I'm sorry. Yeah, I I I will not be available on the 15th, but if you want to carry it, we just will
>> um the board can >> anything I was just I didn't know if there was a commentary on that. >> No, we just carry till July 15th and we'll figure it out >> and then when we get our new dates at reorg, we'll >> Okay. Thank you. >> All right. >> So So I'm I'm not I'm not available on
July 15th. just um not in the state just just so that >> we understand. >> Okay. All right. >> I think we need to make the residents aware of what >> right so so just to be clear what what's going to happen is that this application is going
to be carried to to July 15th. At that point in time the board will reschedu that me this application to a further date and time probably within the next month or so. Um, >> I was just say, let me just explain, let me interject here. The reason why we're
doing that, I know it probably sounds crazy. We're talking about following orders. Our year goes to June 30th and then we reorganize in July and we establish our dates for next year. Uh, starting in July. So, we've scheduled them for July 15th. It will not be here July 15th, but that night we will
schedule them for a further date. >> So, you're re >> just so that I'm clear too. So, July 15th, we're not going to hear testimony. There's no questions. >> Not on this application >> for for scheduling purposes only. >> So if anybody's interested in asking questions regarding this application,
July 15th is not the date you want. >> So then what you can do, let me let me be very clear here. What you can do after that July 15th reorganization meeting, it will be posted on um the township websites. You can go to the zoning board office or you can go right
to the zoning board website um and look at the it you'll see them scheduled the document center. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. True. >> All right. Motion to adjurnn. All in favor? >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. I
>> Thank you, >> Councilman Bradley. Thank you. I got to