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of the agenda that we can provide to the public and to us. >> Oh, you guys don't have >> Okay, I'll be right back. >> Okay, then three people, four people sitting there and we don't bite. You can move here. >> Only cheese bite as

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>> good evening everyone. >> Good evening. >> Good evening Erica. >> We're just awaiting copies of the agenda so we have it available. >> I test. >> Yep. you can check your mic. And in the meantime, we're left

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while they make um Yeah. >> Okay. Good evening everyone. We are on the record. Today is Monday, the 15th day of June, 2026. This is a regular meeting of the Rent Protection Special Investigation Committee. We had a

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scheduled 5:00 PM start. And on the clock on myself is showing 5:15. May we have a roll call for the commencement of this meeting? >> Council person Zupa.

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>> Council person Efos >> present. >> Council person Little >> present. >> Council person Gilmore is not here. Council person Singh here. >> Council person Griffin

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>> not here. Council person Lavaro, we have a quorum of four out of seven at 5:15 p.m. Can we kindly rise to salute the flag? Allegiance on behalf of the members of the Rent Protection Special Investigation

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Committee and in accordance with the New Jersey Public Laws of 1975, Chapter 231, the Open Public Meetings Act, also known as the Sunshine Law, adequate notice of this meeting has been provided in posting on the bulletin board of the first floor of city hall.

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In addition, at the time of its preparation, the notice of this meeting was similarly disseminated on Thursday, June 11th at 20 June 11, 2026 at 5:57 p.m. to the mayor, municipal council, business administrator, corporation

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council, and the local newspapers and posted on the city's website so I can certify as to our total compliance with the sunshine law. Awesome. Thank you, Erica. Um, as the chair of

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this committee is not present today, I will be acting as chair. Um, as vice chair and acting chair, um, this meeting is a working meeting. We are not hearing testimony from the public this meeting, but what we are

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doing is we are attempting to put our heads together and synthesize some of the information we've learned so far and begin brainstorming recommendations. Um, we also want to begin talking about the um the structure of the report and and what we are hoping to prepare at the end

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of this. Um so just um just to review um this committee is um in investigative and factf finding in nature. Um we are a

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legislative body. Um the well the city council is a legislative body and um you know we we are not part of we we are not the administration and and we are not speaking for the administration. Um would the corporation council like to

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add anything to that? No. Okay. Thank you. Um and just to review the topics that we are investigating are chapter 260 of the municipal code rent control, chapter 218 property maintenance and chapter 254

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housing code. Um so a few housekeeping items. Um when this committee began I did not have a legislative director but after discussion with um Chairman Gilmore's office um at the beginning um we had

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designated chairman Gilmore's chief of staff Erica Walker as our secretary and she's been doing an amazing job as our secretary so far but um it is a heavy lift and um after discussion between our offices we decided that uh we would like

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to nominate my legislative director Dr. Danielle Basorti as co- secretary so that Erica and Danielle can share in secretary duties and um better help us stay on top of our goals. Um can I make a motion to nominate Danielle Vasorti as

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co- secretary of this committee? >> I'll second. >> Okay. Um Secretary Walker, do you have who are you giving the second to? Motion from Elena Little and a second

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from I think I heard Efos. Thank you. Okay. For the motion to nominate Danielle, for the record, could you spell your last name for me? You go. Thank you. On record. Sorry.

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Last name Bazordi. D as in boy. I. S is in Sam. O R D as in dog. I >> Okay. And a motion to nominate Danielle Rosori to be co- secretary. We have

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council person Efos. >> I council Councilwoman Little. >> Hi. >> Council person Gilmore is absent. >> Council person Singh. >> Hi. And I want to say that Danielle has done a great job with the agenda.

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everything she lined up very nicely and I'm already very impressed with her. So, thank you for work tonight. Council person Griffin is absent. Council person Lavaro >> I >> and council person Zupa is absent with

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the motion of making Danielle Rosian nomine nominated for co-chair co- secretary of the rent protection special investigation committee. We have it passing with four votes. 4 03.

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>> Thank you, Erica and Danielle for helping keep us on track. >> Yes. >> Thank you. Thank you, Danielle. And congratulations. >> Congratulations, Danielle. And thank you, Erica, for all your work getting us to this point. And thank you for Danielle for stepping up. And I'm looking forward to continuing working

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with both of you. Um, another housekeeping item. Um, based on previous meetings, uh, we would like to establish a procedure and deadline for when we do have invited guests, we would like to establish a procedure and deadline for submissions of questions

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um, for our guest speakers to the chair, the vice chair, and the secretaries. And um in the past sometimes and and I know we are all busy people so um sometimes you know some of us were

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just you know finalizing our questions the day of and sometimes we asked for specific numbers and figures that um our guest speakers did not have readily accessible. So, in order to make these meetings more productive, um,

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uh, Chairman Gilmore and I would like to, uh, propose that we set a deadline for submission of questions, um, before the meeting and, um, also identify the format. So I believe previously we heard

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from corporation council that a shared um shareepoint document word document where we all put our questions in may not be fully sunshine compliant. And so to that end um I am going to propose that the the format for submitting the

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questions be a simple email to the chair the vice chair and the two secretaries. Um but I want to open it up for discussion. What does what does everyone think? >> Concur. >> What uh what kind of advance timeline uh

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makes the most sense? >> So, I would suggest at least a week in advance. Um that way we have a chance to go through it and um identify any duplicate questions

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and better prepare the agenda as well as share those questions um particularly those that may require some looking up of figures uh with our guest speakers. So I I would I would suggest at least at least a week in

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advance. Does that work for everyone? week or 10 days is obviously a good idea so that if we are inviting any directors they have time to prepare. >> I think 10 days is is great as well. Yeah.

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>> Seven days to 10 days I would say. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Either one or the other. Yeah, >> let's let's say 10 and then um no one's perfect and sometimes people will miss the 10-day deadline, but we will make every effort to meet the 10day

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deadline and if not we will um the chair, the vice chair and the secretaries may follow up with you. >> So okay, >> I appreciate that. Can can No, I think that's great. Um to clarify, if we have city staff coming

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before us, um we'll develop our questions, send to the two chairs and the two secretaries, um 10 days notice before the upcoming meeting so that we can get those questions both to the other committee members, but also to the

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folks from the city who are going to be speaking. Um it was discussed that we would have tenants also come uh from across the city who are interested in giving public testimony about their experiences. Would we need to have kind of created

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questions in the same way or do we think that kind of meeting format should be more open-ended if is it more or less important that we have the kind of prepared questions? genuine just want to discuss that.

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>> Yeah. Um you're right because that is actually what we were thinking of doing our next meeting. We were thinking of hearing directly from the tenants impacted and having the tenants open to any tenant in Jersey City be our invited guest speakers. Um so while I

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think we have some um some some tenants who we anticipate certainly will participate um there are also people who we may be meeting for the first time at the next meeting. So I would suggest um providing general

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topics that we would like to cover but also leaving it open-ended and allowing the tenants to raise their own issues that may not be covered in our in our outline. What what >> can I say something and tell me what you guys think? So couple of tenants have

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been coming here for years. So we know the issues they have been facing. What I would suggest that they should be able to submit their questions to us. So let's see if 100 tenants are submitting their questions. we can see the repeat

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questions so that instead of 10 same similar questions it will save our time also we can consolidate everything. So when we um call directors from different department or anyone we are calling we'll be able to uh share the questions

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to them directly. So that way we will it will be a good use of our time uh city officials time and also chances are that we'll be able to get the answers for the questions that tenants have been

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looking for. What do you guys think? I I think it makes sense to have some kind of format for collecting questions uh from tenants uh during the course of this this investigation committee's run.

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Um I also think that I know I just know there was discussion among this group of having a kind of open forum for attendants to come before us and share not just questions but share experiences that they've had in trying to navigate

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um the city's different agencies and offices in terms of getting rent protection. Um, so I I wonder how we wanna and maybe this is a a kind of specific a set of questions specific to a meeting where we invite attendants to

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do this. Um, how do we want to just structure that meeting and whether we need the same kind of 10day in advance, let's come up with the the framework of how that meeting should run, what questions we want to ask.

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I think in if we want to do it, we should open at least two beatings because what if one building has 50 speakers and then other speakers are not even getting chance and the idea is to know the issue from all over Jersey

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city. I would say that we should not just I I I think we should be open to have multiple sessions if we want to create the framework. We want to hear the concern from all the tenants throughout

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the city. That way we cannot restrict one meeting opening for it. You get my point. Well, I I think what we could do is we could just not put an end time on the meeting. You know, like city council meetings, they go as long as the number of public speakers. Um, so I don't think

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that we would, you know, we could have one meeting and and with the understanding that these meetings start at 5. For a lot of working people, it's hard to make it here at 5. So even if you know, city council starts at 6, but we have a lot of other items. Um, so you

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know, I I think even look, I would be thrilled if we heard from tenants throughout the city for five hours, like I think I think that would be groundbreaking. >> So, >> and in that case, seniors, if seniors are coming and if they're waiting for 3

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hours, they they I think either we should we should have just one session for seniors. I really feel no senior should wait for 3 to four hours to share the con concerns. Either we have first time slot for them. If we want to hear

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everybody's concern, we want to make sure that everybody is able to participate. >> Question for corporation council. Is it legal to give order of speaking preference based on age? This is like a nightmare law school exam

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hypo in public on the record. I'm not sure. I can follow up with you. >> Yes, it is definitely legal to come up with some reasonable non-discriminatory method of prioritizing speakers. So, we can work with you to develop what that is.

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>> Not just for this meeting, even for council meetings. I have seen seniors not just feeling comfortable sitting for 2 hours, 3 hours because we have repeat speakers. That is good. But also this is not fair to our seniors where they have to sit for two to three hours.

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Practically they cannot. So something to think about for council meetings too. There are definitely ways to come up with reasonable prioritization of speakers to accommodate a variety of circumstances in a non-discriminatory way and I'm happy to work with you on that.

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>> Thank you. So, if I if I may, um, so it sounds to me like we're talking about a session that'll be open up to the public, inviting tenants to come and speak and share their um, experiences and

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concerns, complaints with regard to chapters 260, chapter 218, chapter 254 um, as as part of our investigative. Is that what I'm hearing? like it's an open open forum.

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>> I I also want to reiterate um that I think tenants would be welcome to submit questions in advance to us in advance of that, but I also think that tenants are always welcome to submit questions to us in advance. And I want to state that publicly on the record that um if if you

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see we are bringing in um a department that you are interest that you have a question that specifically for and you have been unsuccessful in getting an answer from that department on your own or through your council member and you would like for us to ask it. That is that is certainly something tenants

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should be feel empowered to do is to email us questions for different um city staff members. Now we can certainly also synthesize those questions and consolidate some of them where appropriate and um not let you know it's not a guarantee that each question will

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get asked word for word but um you know I we are always open to um outreach from community members and constituents. So >> and we are their representatives so of course that's what our job is for.

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Yeah, maybe this is adding extra steps unnecessarily. Um, would it make sense to have like a temporary city email address for this committee that the public can email their questions,

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comments, concerns, then that email address can be accessed by the secretaries and the members of the committee. Um, >> I love that idea. Is that >> love it >> sounds it here?

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>> Yeah, this is something uh to think about. I actually love it. So that all of us getting to it will helpful >> for consolidate all the questions we are getting and we can promote that throughout the city. So it's easier for people not to remember all these email

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just sending it to one email and then we are processing it. Yes, that >> I'm happy to send the request to it and see what steps would be necessary to make sure that the full committee and the secretaries would have access to it >> and I think they could set up a email

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account that would auto forward >> right >> to all of the right >> yes >> okay great >> I I think if we are advertising this though I think we should be clear that this is for questions of the rent protection special investigation committee and and that if you have a

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specific issue with your landlord that you want to reach out to your ward council person about um because you have questions or you know you you should if if it's a specific if it's a case- specific question that is not meant to be asked in a public meeting because it

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contains personal information or or what have you and and you need assistance with your situation. um and it's a constituent services request rather than a request for a question to for the committee um then you should still email your your council person,

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>> right? >> Or or you know see click fix or the resident response center as appropriate depending on what the issue is. >> Yeah. Are we accepting every um everyone who comes forward and

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regardless of circumstances and of um and I say this just trying to think of some scenarios. So, um somebody filed a complaint three days before and um about um a rent

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control violation. Um and then going to come and testify about that. Uh um the city bureaucracy has not uh offices have not had an opportunity to really respond to it at that point. This really a fair

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kind of a place to look for um to identify sort of issues, systemic issues that we're looking to correct uh in our our bureaucracy.

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I >> Yeah. No, it's a good question. Um I would hesitate to turn anyone away, but I wonder if we can make it very clear the kind of testimony we're we're seeking out. So we could come up with a

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um yeah kind of guideline of are you a tenant who has been experiencing kind of protracted struggle in getting rent protection met

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scene um in Jersey City and yeah I guess I wonder too would would we want this to operate like a city council meeting where people sign up in advance or would we want it to be like because that's one form of public comment at

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council meetings or is it more like the second reading ordinances where people just come right up to the mic and get online? Um I'm open to to either um and since we brought up council meetings public speaking will there be a time

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limit? I think we should definitely give two to three minutes because we won't know >> I I think more I I I think there probably should be a time limit um because we do want to make sure everyone's heard but I think that it should be more than three minutes

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>> at least five >> minutes okay and then but also if we are doing we are you know we're deciding one day we are opening I would say let everybody come whoever wants to come and talk the idea is we want to know exactly

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what issues they are having so five six hours it might take but let everybody come and speak. They don't have to sign up. That's what I'm trying to say. >> Yeah, we could do a hybrid where we we let people sign up and and we call those

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people first if you know barring any other sort of legal prioritization of people who might need to go first. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> a non-discriminatory >> otherwise generally what you know uh

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people come and they line up they can we can do that. Um, >> yeah, we >> public >> we could open it up to members of the public who did not sign up after we get through this maybe. >> Just an idea, >> right?

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>> Is this a a session where we're simply taking testimony or is there a Q&A component to it and then how do you manage that with time manage people's time?

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I think I I would I would propose um that if we do have follow-up questions for the tenant that we then allow them to exceed the time limit. So I know in city council we don't do that where you know >> you have to get closer. >> Oh, sorry. Um I I know in city council

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we don't do that where the person has their three minutes and then we can respond but then Sean says they're not allowed to respond back. I would think for the purposes of this type of meeting that's maybe not as productive and that if if we are having a constructive back and forth and uh we have questions for

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them they have questions for us that you know we we allow them to go beyond the five minutes in that scenario would be my my suggestion but >> and also it is one-off scenario so I think we should absolutely have question and answers certain things we want to

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clarify the idea is to just gather the information also find out or answer the questions. So I would say Q&A should be allowed to. >> So maybe we say five minutes of time for

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any tenant to come up, present and then any member of the committee may engage in question and answer that exceeds the five minutes and it's up to the chair and vice chair the discretion of saying okay we have more speakers that we want

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to hear from let's move on to the next. that structure sound good. >> I'm I'm concerned you're gonna have I mean I'm fine with saying I've been at long meetings

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and uh but I'm concerned that uh the meeting could end up uh very long and slightly meandering. Um it's going to be incumbent upon the the chair truly make sure it stays focused

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um and focused on the issues at hand and to make sure we're gathering the information um or a testimony that provides the information related to what we're investigating. I can see a lot of back and forth that

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uh goes on and then it raises the question of fairness to the other people who want to speak and if they're kind of sitting around waiting while that's going on. Alternatively, um, just as we do in council meetings, not to say you can't allow for some some

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exchange, if the chair were to see that exchange was continuing ongoing and maybe rightfully so necessarily, um, but could be taken offline, but still in an official, and I'd like

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the Christian council to be able to chime in on that. she stepped away. But um but in an official capacity to be able to say I'm going to take official testimony and probe further into this, be able to get more detailed information

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about uh some violation or or issue that that might emerge in such a hearing. Just want to pause to let the record reflect uh Councilman Griffin's presence at 5:41 p.m. 5:42 p.m.

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>> We also want to make sure that that day we have cororum because if public coming to speak >> Yeah. >> We want to make sure that five of us or seven of us are available that day. >> Yeah. >> Before the Yes. close of this meeting,

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we can go over the schedule for the next few sessions. That would be helpful. >> Yeah. >> Um well, I'm I'm open to to either I I Councilman, I understand the hesitation. Um we definitely would want a lot of

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focus and would need a kind of like very strong chairing to make sure things stay fast. >> Um >> so maybe there's a maybe there's a limited Q&A period for each

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person who comes up to speak that we have, you know, >> yeah, >> a few minutes instead of an unlimited amount of time for each tenant and then we can make sure that we get on to the next tenant. Does that sound like compromise? >> Yeah, >> that's a good compromise. Can we say

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five minutes presentation or testimony and then an additional five minutes for Q&A? >> Yeah. So, >> and then we can make a motion to extend it if it's a particularly, >> you know, if it's something we have a lot of questions on and something that

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we think could inform our our legislative conclusions slashrecommendations >> and no matter what the meeting would not last more than seven hours and we have experienced that and we were fine. So,

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it's not that Yeah, maybe maybe we maybe we do have a hard stop at midnight and then if we still have tenants lined up at midnight, we can call another meeting. So, how would we like to

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I know maybe this isn't really spelled out on our agenda presently, but I'm curious. How would we like to advertise this up whenever that next meeting is? because um we should make sure that we pretty aggressively promote that. You

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know, if if it is our next session, then our next session is going to be one where we're really relying on the public to pour out and um whether it's a seven-hour line of speakers or or just a three-hour line,

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whatever it may be. I >> mean, these these these meetings are sunshined. I mean, how how is the clerk um promoting this? Are they just putting it? How how is this how is the word going out? Is it just on a website? It

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needs to be I mean it it it needs to be advertised. >> Yeah, I think I think we as members of the committee I mean we could voluntarily those of us who have emailed us voluntarily send it to our list of email contacts. We could also um request

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that the city social media publish it on their social media at least a week in advance, hopefully more. Um and then we could also voluntarily post it on our individual social medias as well and or amplify the city's post. Um, so I I

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think there's ways that we as members of the committee and and elected officials can work to amplify this beyond regular sunshine procedures. >> We can share with neighborhood

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associations so it can reach to more people more neighborhoods. >> Yeah, I like all those ideas. Could we request the administration to provide um

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a list of complainants with their contact information from 2022, >> right, >> to 2025. um who may have filed

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or reached out to the rent control assuming they have some records. I say uh housing preservation office of housing preservation and the office that uh what's his name that was here at the

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last >> Joe Barl >> compliance >> compliance >> we can um yeah we can request I think they can pull those from they can pull cclick fix requests as well so

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we can request from those offices and the resident response center. >> You can send a mailer or emails to all of them. >> Yeah. >> Notice >> I like that. >> So that's all from complaintants

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from and if there's a right to council database of people who >> in the past five years. >> I'm sorry. address that too much. >> Oh, um I was just saying um you know like advocates for like uh right to

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counsel um rent control. I mean you know there there are places where you know we popped up at um and and and those you know people that you know need to know about this.

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So it wouldn't it wouldn't just be people who deserve to obviously have their voice heard, but people who got a rent hike that is that they feel is unjustified. But people who have been going through

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the process of attempting to have their situation corrected by the city and are experiencing obstacles or are not experiencing that the city's like actually doing everything we need to do to make good on

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our rent protection laws. Is that the are we on the same page there? because I I I think there's usefulness and there's utility in also just having a forum for tenants across the city to express anger, indignation,

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so on and so forth about cost of living, rent increases, abuse from landlords, you name it. And I think if we want a focused forum, if that's the choice we make, then we might need to spell out certain kind of, okay,

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this is this is for people who have been trying to deal with housing preservation, trying to deal with landlord tenant, trying to deal with municipal court, and feeling frustrated. Is that the >> Well, I mean, >> the kind of focus we're asking for. >> I don't necessarily know that we should

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limit ourselves because just going back to our authority and investigative scope, it includes not just chapter 260, but also chapter 218 and chapter 254. So, if people have, you know, serious habit habitability complaints, even if they're not in a rent controlled

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building, but, you know, say there's like black mold in their unit and um it's giving them asthma attacks or whatever, um that >> they should have the opportunity and and if if if they've gone through the proper

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city channels and haven't reached a resolution. >> For sure. We're going to keep it focused. Is that the intent? >> Focused, I think, on chapter 260, chapter 218, and chapter 254. >> Correct. >> So, not not things outside of our scope,

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but also not limited just to rent control issues. So, um, would someone on the committee be willing to request the kind of list of complaintants and the cclick fix logs

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um, from the past what was suggested four years? Is that in 2022 or five years? 21 >> 20 >> 22 to 25 I'm thinking postco >> but also if we want all of that do you

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guys think that we'll be able to hold this meeting next month in July? >> No. >> I I mean I think we just request the email addresses associated with the creek fix complaints and we we send an email advertising this meeting to all of

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those email addresses. That's what I'm saying. What's the timeline? Do we do are we going to gather all of this in next 7 to 10 days so we have enough time to invite everybody?

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>> So I I think the goal is not to analyze each complaint before the meeting. The goal is just to extract an email address from each complaint before the meeting so that we can invite those individuals. >> Yes. So we have to give at least two weeks advanced notice if someone wants to come. Maybe they're traveling or they

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are working full-time. Just want to give enough time to everyone so they can be here at the meeting to speak up. >> We're taking walk-ins. I thought I heard earlier. >> Yeah, we are. >> So I think I mean I think two weeks

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advanced notice is a good goal. Um, but if we can't if we can't extract those email addresses, if the departments can't get us that information, then even one week is better than nothing. I think we're still going above and beyond by

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reaching out directly to the people who have filed CC click fix requests. And in addition to that, we'll also be blasting on our social media and everything that nature. We'll we'll be getting out the world word multiple ways.

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If the if the meeting were the end of July and we were able to craft an invitation, get the language agreed upon by every member of the committee and legal

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whatever we we need to do to get that approved um to get the lists from these different places which might require a little bit of staff time. um you know that I think conservatively

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that's like the end of June that we would be able to get all that together in the next two weeks and then if we gave ourselves till the end of July to have a kind of tenant forum meeting I think that's >> yeah plenty of time >> enough time that sound right to others

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>> the end of July being the week of July 26th >> yeah let's decide the date so that we can inform everyone We've had these on Mondays traditionally at 5:00 pm. So, so we could do Monday the 20th or Monday the 27th.

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>> I I personally am away on the 20th. Um, but I understand if that's the best date for everyone else. >> That's fine. >> The 27th is fine for me. >> 27th is fine for me as well. That >> works for me. I don't I don't plan that far.

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as councilman's chief of staff, I can say that he's also available on Monday the 27th. >> Okay. So, we have a quorum. >> Can you get give us insight into Councilman Zupus >> on the other phone? >> I have an event on 27th.

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Um, but I think we we should be able to postpone it or do something about it. Yeah. >> Thank you for being so accommodating. >> Thank you.

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>> Yeah. Appreciate that. >> You're my favorite. by the end of the run of this committee. I'll change your mind or >> I have no intentions. Um Sarah's back so I just wanted to Hi

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Sarah. Um, corporation council, we were just talking about getting a list, requesting a list from the of complaintants and folks who may have filed with your C fix or um or directly

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to the office of housing preservation um or to Joe Barrow's office. was it enforcement? Um complaintants related to to the areas of chapter 254, 260 and 218. Um

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getting their email addresses to be able to send them a notice about the next meeting. So if they were interested in testifying, providing testimony, you see any issues or concerns there in just using that information in that sense?

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Thank you. Great. >> Thank you. >> Um so unless we have further comments on the the next meeting, um I'm very excited for it. >> I just my last thing just wanted to see who's um we have someone who's willing

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to make that request for the list. >> My office will make >> Thank you, Councilman. >> Thank you. Where's my office? I'd just like to move forward um and begin our discussion of our findings to

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date. Um I think this will be helpful um you know we have our co- secretaries here taking notes and um this will be helpful for us as we begin thinking about the report structure. So, just to recap, um previous guest speakers have

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included um city staff um from the Division of Housing Preservation. Um they have included um the director of code compliance and they have included um city staff for the municipal

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prosecutor's office. And um you know, we we covered a wide range of enforcement and compliance topics. And um you know I I wanted to discuss a little bit about you know what what

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we've learned so far and and even if we could start brainstorming some possible legislative remedies um you know understanding nothing we say here is is binding this we're just putting our heads together and um maybe some of the suggestions will make sense

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maybe some of them won't but um just this is a working meeting So, >> I have a I have a I have a question for uh corporate council. Um so, when when violations are issued,

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how much how much time are we giving landlords, property owners? because I received an email um and we we we have a a property owner um

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landlord, whatever we want to call them, um three properties, um violations totaling $364,000. Are those judgments that the court has awarded? >> These are um No, this is these are the violations

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that were these were the summones violations given. >> Okay. So that's just a multiplier of a dollar amount on summones that were issued. >> Yes. And these are like and and there's small amounts that accumulated. >> So I'm happy to look into this with you.

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There are a number of factors to be mindful of. A summon being issued, a violation being issued is not the same thing as a judgment that someone actually owes a penalty. There is still a due process procedure that has to happen in municipal court. There are some types of violations like parking

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tickets that are self-proving where you can just log online and pay. But in the normal course, you get a summon, you show up to court. Oh, thank you. Um, and there is some litigation that proceeds. So, it is possible that $364,000

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is an amount that is outstanding that is owed to the city. And we can talk about what the city can do to collect outstanding amounts because there are definitely some. It is also possible that the amount owed is zero if none of those summones were properly served, if that person hasn't showed up in court,

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if the court hasn't actually adjudicated any of those violations, or if those judgments haven't been entered, for example, if any of those matters were dismissed. So depending on the specifics, there are all sorts of things that could be true. I'm happy to look into those properties with you.

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>> Thank you. And and and the re and well the amount alarms me, but um it's it's the the the amount of days. 364 days. >> That's the number of days of unabated

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violations. Is that right? >> Yes. and and you know like so you have like $300, $600. These all I mean this has added up to $364,000. >> If you want to send me the name of the property, I'm happy to look into it, get

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the summones from whether it's code compliance or maybe the construction official depending on the type of violation we're talking about and see if anything is on the docket in municipal court yet or if any judgments have been entered. >> Thank you. Miss Levvin as you are there

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a quick question after mayor's executive order on rent control do we have any task force or did we see the the number of cases uh they're going up. How are we

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resolving that? One thing is yes we have executive order. Now the question is how are we taking it forward? How are we resolving these cases? So there could be two things you're referring to. There was the mayoral executive order to do the rent control

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audit and then separately there was the executive order regarding maximum fines. Are you asking about the latter? >> If you can answer both that will be wonderful. >> So I will share what I know. My office

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is not carrying out any of those directives, but what I know is that the office of landlord tenant is carrying out the first steps of the rent control audit directive. They've made significant process. I believe it was progress. It was Jonah Noel from that

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office who reported to the committee. I can't remember if it was the last meeting or the meeting before. there are some hurdles that have to do with just limitations of data that exist um that prevent doing a systematic empirical evaluation. So, it is kind of a painstaking process, but I'm sure that

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that office would be happy to give you an update on that. With respect to the maximum penalties component, I think it is important to bear in mind, as you heard from the chief municipal prosecutor, that there is a backlog of

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50,000 code cases right now. And so when you have a backlog, you can only resolve so many matters at a time. So it's not the case that you can just push a button and all of a sudden see enormous penalties assessed against a

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large number of defendants. I will just share that for your consideration. >> Thank you. >> I don't know if that was helpful. That's what I've >> No, just curious to know. Thank you. So kind kind of on that topic and to um

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answer your question about the f or the the topic of findings to date um two themes just to at least get us started that I think we've heard in both of these sessions so far um the last two

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sessions um two themes that are on my mind are one just chronic under staffing and underresour sourced uh offices um in our city and then secondly the kind of communication between offices.

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So the communication and relationship uh between whether it's landlord tenant and municipal court um and quality of life uh but then also just the the I mean they have each testified

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um in no uncertain terms that they feel woefully understaffed and resourced and so just how do we how do we square that against the the constraints that we have in our in our city and the like the

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desperate need to actually make good on the rent protection laws that we have on the books. So, um just want to get us started at least with those things that I've noticed >> is the ongoing challenge we have. We are under staff most of the department where they can enforce but they are under

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staff. So, as Miss Lavine said there are so many cases pending but that has been the issue. Yeah, I you know I don't have the financial analysis of this although I would love to um pick our finance

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director's brain on this but um I will note just off the off the cuff um chief municipal prosecutor Kimraj thought that doubling his staff would would pay for itself in the amount of

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fines collected. Um that is you know his estimate. Um I would like to see more financial analysis of this but you know I I do think this is something that might be able to be justified even in a

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highly constrained budget environment because these are in enforcement generates revenue for the city too. So >> but it's true. I remember he said that. Um, another thing he mentioned that I,

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um, would be interested in looking to into legislative remedies for, um, he stated that the current quasi criminal nature of many of these violations require a high burden of

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proof to prosecute and it causes a large number of the cases to be unprosecutable by the municipal courts. So, if we were as a council able to legislate um them to be regular civil cases

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um to allow them to take up more cases in conjunction with increasing their staff um if the administration is willing to do that. Um is that something that we could legislate at the municipal level or is

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that something that would need to be legislated at the state level? There is some legal complexity there. I am happy to work with you all to explore that. >> Thank you. That could be potentially a very exciting piece of legislation if it resulted in more more cases being

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prosecutable. >> This that lowers the barrier to entry, so to speak, in in prosecution, right? That >> it lowers the burden of proof. >> Excuse the burden of proof. Thank you. Yeah. So, if the prosecutor doesn't

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think they're going to have a case, um I I think the current burden of proof, if I'm not mistaken, is clear and convincing. Is that No, criminal matters are subject to the same standard as criminal matters, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. A civil

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standard is a prepoundonderance of the evidence, which means 51% or more likely that the person is culpable or the entity. So if we could move more, so so the prosecutor doesn't think he can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, he won't

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bring the case. If a prosecutor doesn't think that they can prosecute a case to a good judgment, they will often think at minimum about pleading it out, if not dismissing the case outright if there's no evidence. I think a useful example here is, you know, something that is permitted in the civil context that it's

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much harder to accomplish in the criminal or quasi criminal context is an inference of culpability. So let's say a violation happens on day one, 10 days later you send out an inspector, the same violation occurs. In the civil context, you can make a reasonable inference that those violations

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continued. It might be much harder to prove that inference beyond a reasonable doubt in the quasi criminal context. >> That's super interesting. Thank you. Um to the extent that we could legislate that at the municipal level, I would be

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interested um if if colleagues are also interested um in creating more cases that are prosecutable by lowering the standard to just be a preponderance of the evidence instead of beyond a reasonable doubt.

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>> Yeah, AB. Absolutely. But I I think that probably would have to be done in conjunction with increasing the municipal prosecutor's staff, which it's not clear yet whether the administration um you know is is willing to look into that

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given the current budget constraints, although this would potentially also generate a great deal of revenue for the city. So um ongoing discussions to be ha had. I recognize we are a legislative body and not the administration. Um, but

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we can always suggest and advocate. >> The administr >> um corporation council, sorry. If if we were to make a recommendation as a committee to the administration, could we put it in writing and and say this is

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the committee's recommendation even though that we while we acknowledge we do not have jurisdiction over this. We would like to recommend this. >> You can recommend anything you want. >> Well, so let me ask this. So would

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something like that be an ordinance or a resolution? Amending the code to create civil enforcement authority. Specifically, >> we're going to be amending the code. >> That would be an ordinance. That's correct. >> You just request the ordinance. You just

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request to work with the to amend that order. >> Just just to make sure I'm keeping track here. Are we talking about creating civil enforcement authority or are we talking about staffing the prosecutor's office? Because the former could just be done by amending the code. You all could introduce that yourselves. The administration has no role in that. beyond the mayor potentially exercising

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veto power. That's the only mayoral role with respect to legislation. >> Okay. >> The prosecutor piece has to do with the budgetary process, which I'm sure you know more about. I do at this point. >> Joking. Joking.

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I I would suggest maybe then that we do some initial outreach as individual council members and or writing a letter um on behalf of the committee to to make this recommendation make the re I mean

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if if we are aligned on increasing staffing in the municipal prosecutor's office um I would oh thank you sorry Um, if we are aligned as a committee on the recommendation of increasing

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staffing to the municipal prosecutor's office, um, I would make a motion for us to draft a letter to the administration making this recommendation and, um, it can be from the committee and then based

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on the response to that, whether we receive a favorable response or or an unfavorable response, then we can decide whether we want to proceed with this legislation this year or if we want to wait until um the municipal prosecutor's office has better staffing. Um

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does that make sense? >> Just speak personally for me, it's um I'm not prepared to make that recommendation until I kind of see the budget, see where numbers fall at this point. >> I agree. >> Okay. So

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>> yeah, our our budget timeline is I mean, you know, we're getting briefings tomorrow, but um we should have a sense of the next the next month likely. It sounds like the budget being introduced. Um

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>> before our next meeting, >> we will definitely have a budget introduced and yeah. Well, not Oh, before our next committee meeting, not before our next council meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, >> could we I wonder how we could get this

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information request worded properly, but could we between now and then have an information request along the lines of estimates or the revenue generation of doubling? for argument sake the

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municipal prosecutor staff. >> Yeah, I don't see why we couldn't um shoot Bill an email. >> I think they will have an idea because that's when they share the information that >> they can generate their own salary if they have staff. Right. Right.

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>> So I think assuming it that they know what they're talking about. >> Yeah. Well, the municipal prosecutor is not a is not a financial analyst. So, I we could potentially put

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municipal prosecutor Kimra and um finance director Kira on an email together or on a team's call together and they could look into it. >> I like that. >> Yeah. I mean, doubling the municipal prosecutor staff is specifically what if

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I have my notes correct is what Mr. Camraj suggested. um would be a kind of revenue generating operation. Um >> I mean I'm also happy to to ask my office to support in that kind of

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work but I think making a formal request of um the >> and starting the conversation right >> you know what what kind of financial impact that would have um as we move into our budget conversation.

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Yeah, I think I think that's is good. Another possible legislative remedy um is that that um my my legislative director is proposing actually um is

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recognizing that the maximum fine under the Faulner Act is $2,000 um for many violations um and recognizing that this to many large corporate landlords is may have just feel like the cost of doing

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business. Um if we could in certain cases as applicable in the municipal code update violation language to be, you know, $2,000 per day or per week or per tenant affected or something

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like that so that it becomes a larger um a larger um disincentive. Is that something that corporation council feels would be lawful?

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Sorry to keep making you get up. Need my steps. Anyway, um happy to work with you on that. It would be case by case, but happy to work with you on that. >> Okay. Thank you. I mean beyond the

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um fine amount and the staffing um I'm curious if there are other kind of findings that we feel as I it's it sounds like um just from the testimony we've gotten and

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the the testimony outside of this committee that we've heard from from tenants in different forums. Um there there just seems to be a lack of like a a centralized system and I think that's some of what we were getting at in the in the previous meeting. um

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hearing from quality of life and hearing from the municipal prosecutor's office and some of what I was asking toward the end of that meeting is just how can we better develop vehicles for for like a a centralized system of violations across

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departments. Um I yeah we heard that their internal system was hanging by a string. Um, and you know what what can we do to like really support those offices in having those those systems?

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Like does it come back to the question of staffing? Um, and I think you know this is clearly getting into administrative territory beyond the scope of what um we can do as legislators. But I in terms of being able to recommend anything, I just want

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to think through like what recommendations can we make that support these offices in in having tighter, stronger internal systems for keeping track of all of this. And um yeah, being able to to handle the case load better.

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Does that make sense? I mean, I don't know if others also heard this kind of uh these kinds of issues come up. Yeah, absolutely. I think um I remember when um the municipal prosecutor was here, he mentioned that they don't have a case management

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software and this causes um this really hurts their efficiency and they have like sort of like a a patchwork SharePoint document system in place, but um they could be much more effective with case management software. And I'm

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not I'm not an attorney. I'm not familiar with case management software that attorneys use. Um, but I wonder if there is a case management software out there that would allow for collaboration between both the prosecutor's office to update it and the different entities.

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For example, the division of housing preservation could update cases. Um, I'm not familiar with it. I also think that I don't know if there is um any room in the budget for case management software this year because we are in a very

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constrained budget environment but I don't know it was is that something that the committee would like to recommend? Is this is this something that it can look into and and um possibly um

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get us the costs of what this would be? >> Yeah, I think that's >> Sorry, Sarah. Sarah, could sit sit please? It's a mic here. It's a nice chair. >> I'm getting my steps in. Okay. Um,

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so I am not a prosecutor or an IT person or a procurement specialist, but I will cause play as all three to question. >> I think step one is assessing the operational need, >> right? >> Because you can't get a quote for software until you know what functional

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needs do we need the software to fulfill. There are a lot of different types of case management software that all do very different things. I will also flag that the law department does not have case management software and it is not in my budget. Um so I would talk

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a little bit more which can be done even in small groups to make progress between meetings to assess the operational need and if you want to be part of this process collaboratively in the spirit of understanding your role in the budgetary process. So you could certainly talk

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with administrators and others um to get a sense of what kinds of software exists to fill this need. Again, your role in this process would be approving the budget, not in doing the procurement, putting out the bidspec, etc. Um but there's nothing wrong with fact gathering,

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especially if folks are willing to cooperate with you. So if if I was advising the administration on how to go about this, I'd say figure out the operational need, assess the software that exists, solicit some quotes to start to get a sense of what bang you can get for your buck for various

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functionality. Um, I will just also flag for this committee that a lot of what we're talking about has to do with the courts administration, which is a perspective that I'm not sure this committee has heard from yet. So it might be prudent to engage them at some point.

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It's a great idea. I would I would love to have someone from the courts here um or multiple people from the courts here perhaps after our tenants town hall hearing. >> Let's decide on the step so that we know

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what's happening. >> Game is over. Michael, >> no that was that was >> World Cup. forever. >> Um, let's decide the step one, step two, step three, so we know where we are heading to. Right now, we are discussing

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a lot more. >> Well, we're we're brainstorming legislative ideas. >> Oh, sorry. >> Well, I mean, >> we are brainstorming legislative ideas, I believe. I >> mean, there's there's a lot going on,

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right? I mean, just you know what I what I talked about earlier in regards to one one person owing over $300,000, right? That's one landlord, right? Um

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you know, we we you know, that's that's 364 days, right? um received Kevin's email today with his we're at 450 450 days 420 days 420 days that's that's two two

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landlords over a year right that that people are complaining about or have violations um now I don't know what we can do to speed um speed up the process um you know for

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getting judgments I'm pretty sure that's a prosecutor's um a question for the prosecutor, but um and and I know they're backlogged, but you know, I mean, some something has to give because I'm

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pretty sure I mean, I can I can ride around Jersey City and I can point out buildings with issues um in in nearly every ward and and so um I I mean, yes, we do need more staff.

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Yes, we do need um we we we do need some sort of software or or something to connect everyone. >> Yeah. >> And um you know, and and like Councilwoman

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Little said earlier, we we have budget restraints, right? So I I I think the conversation is more or less how can we what where do we start with

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the little money that we have at our disposal if any after we um submit a budget, right? like do we start with trying to figure out with the software what type of software we're

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going to use? Do we do we do we start off by saying hey we need to hire more people? um like I I think that's that's where the conversation needs to to go and also what will be more effective, right? Um

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as far as um ensuring people aren't being overcharged for rent um you know and and and also like we I think we need to be speaking to to these

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tenants, right? um are you paying are you putting your rent in escrow? Right? Because when you start messing with people's money, they start doing the right thing, right? So, you know, if you're putting your money in escrow, uh a judge is not going to evict you

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because you have the money, you have the rent money, but it's not going to the landlord because they're not doing the right thing, right? So, you know, what what do we I mean, do we start off with educating people? I mean, like where I I think I think that the

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conversation is where where do we start to get the ball rolling, right? I mean, this is this this is the first step. And I think I think this is a great step where we're at because the conversation is being had. It's being had on record and and you know, people are seeing this

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and and you know, uh residents can can join in the conversation, right? Um and and I I think that um it's important um to get it right. So, you know, and and I don't think that's anything that we can answer right

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now, like where do we start? But I I think you know having this conversation now will um get us where we need to be right as far as you know session assessing the needs

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um for uh let for the for the um software right um and and discussing the Um, even the legislation I think is

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a good idea, right? Because if we're if we're able to lower the burden of proof, then that will that that will help greatly. That'll that'll help people in court. Um, you

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know, and and people and and tenants going to court. people if if they don't have money to pay a you know for a rent hike it it's it's going to be hard for them to take people to court and and you know and I know there are um there are organizations out there that

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that that help tenants but um you know I I think that uh changing the legislation is is something that actually I think that's you know that's we should be looking at that like first let's start there right lowering the burden of proof

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Um and then from there, you know, we we figure out the next steps >> again. Um jump in. So I I I think it was it's great that we've um established there's going to be a forum on July

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27th, be able to hear tenants and their complaints. Um for me personally that that was kind of the place where I think uh this investigation should have started. Um and then things come from that come out of there. I'm no

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professional investigator but I've watched some on TV and um you know they always talk about follow the like you follow the evidence. Right. >> Right. you uh so after we get the testimony and be able to see that

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testimony and identify where the where there may be issues in the system and also find maybe things that are working in the system want to be fair about the whole thing. So once we identify those sort of things, we can then continue the and you talked councilman saying about

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next steps about who do we bring in next um to speak with and ask them questions, make document information requests of them based on testimony um that we discover and where the where the where the gaps might be. Um I'll use one

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example that kind of just emerged for me in this this process um was when I was looking at Cclick Fix information and Councilman Little is familiar with this, but uh uh identified that certain complaints were going

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through Cclick Fix and when you clicked a certain button um on there, which I think it was something like uh I forget what the button says, it's like send public or make it public in some way. Um once you click that, that complaint didn't actually go into the system. um

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it went to the public out out into the internet world um so people could view it on see click fix but they couldn't but it never went directly to a city official um either in um office of uh

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housing um preservation or to code enforcement or anyone else whatever whatever that complaint might been. So, so nobody was actually responding to it or looking at it. Um, and we were able to identify that ultimately and say, "Hey, something need to be fixed and and they fixed it actually, I think, is my

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understanding on the spot." So, um, which was a great great outcome in that regard. Uh, I think as we surface and then testimony comes forward, they'll surface these sort of issues. Um, personally, um, while we can wait for another hearing, I would also encourage,

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um, the chairpersons to, um, send us send teams out to investigate beneath the surface on what happened when a specific came complaint came in. Um maybe request

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uh you know that's where kind of the making requests for information about why that why that uh rent control complaint did not get uh addressed or enforced and um who was involved in that and being able to get more more uh

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granular on the whole thing and identifying where where the challenges and the problems and the breakdowns might be in the system. Um, and so I think right now this opportunity to kind of surface and summarize kind of where

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we're at, I think is great. Um, but for myself in terms of where uh which particular initiatives want to move forward, there may be one or two that are really obvious, but I want to kind of see how things kind of evolve through the rest of this investigation, be able to um make a better decision on which

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solutions to prioritize and to put my own personal political firsts behind. And I would also ask to like I would also like to ask um the committee how do they feel about

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um hosting meetings in different wards as we move forward. >> I very much support that. Yeah. >> The challenge is I I've had this conversation with the clerk. Challenge

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is recording. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're recording. Well, well, okay. How about uh I mean we could do a town hall in regards to that, right? Um and and that we won't need a quorum,

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right? Like if it's in Ward E, it could be Elena and I'm sorry, Councilwoman Little and two and and and two at large, right? And it

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could go and I think it can it can bounce around the city like that. It doesn't have to be every >> I'm open to everybody. It can just be three of us each ward the ward the ward uh council person and and two at larges

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and and do that. >> I'm open to it. I I just would ask maybe we run that by corporation council. Uh the language in the resolution as I understood it according to my conversation with the city clerk was that all of our kind of gatherings as a

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committee has to be recorded. Um if if it can be interpreted differently, I'm I'm all for that and can definitely take it on the road for me. >> Yeah. Like uh uh I call it like a a ward rrench. Um

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>> so I think there's a couple things going on. Um, if we want it to be a Sorry, if if we want it to be a formal committee meeting, then we would need quorum. If we want it to just be a listening session, we don't necessarily forum >> like a session. Yeah, session.

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>> I mean, yeah, I have a I have one on the books right now for July 9th. Um, that I'm doing W D uh tenant town hall and educational session. Um, I don't Yeah, I think that's great. Nothing should stop us from from doing those as council

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members around the city. But in terms of the official mitten, yeah, we >> mean and that's we could start there. I mean, I won't be there because that's around my I'll be turning 50 on the 11th. So, oh my >> happy birthday. >> Happy almost birthday cancer.

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>> I can't believe I said that out loud. Oh, >> but yeah. So, I mean that that's Yeah, July 9th. I mean it's just a and and I mean it would be a session. Um Sarah I'm sorry you could you can come up now. I'm

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so so if a ward council person holds a set holds a a a community meeting in regard to rent protection in their ward and it's them and two at

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large members >> award council person can host a town hall in their ward to hear from tenants. It would not be a convening of the committee under the resolution that established this committee. >> Okay. >> Another thought I had is that if we did want to have a formal committee hearing

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in more than one location and to Councilwoman Singh's point that if we have one meeting it may go very long. Um maybe we want to have one here and one in the annex. >> Y >> does that work for folks? that works for

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>> me >> because the annex has the technology. Um, >> gave a thumbs up, >> but we could have one August, excuse me, one July and one August. >> Yeah.

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>> Session of these, one downtown, one at the annex. >> Completely in favor of that. In the meantime, of course, we are gathering um we we organizing these meetings to

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learn about the the real challenges, but side steps will be to reach out to administration about um first would be that finance department and prosecutor connecting them to find out if there is

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a possibility um to hire so that we can speed up the process because yes want to hear the the issues they are having but then we also want to make sure that we are ready for next few

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steps getting ready not ready getting ready um what else do we want to add as side steps requesting the administration to investigate getting quotes and who knows maybe there's a package deal we could

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get that would also get the law department some case management software >> also finding out about the softwares these departments need so is it affordable or just knowing that how much it's going to cost and to keep that in

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mind not for this year maybe for following year when we have budget we will have this in mind that okay these are things we are keeping in mind they can be possible next year or So >> yeah that kind of starting with that

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operations assessment like what is the what is the need and on that yeah >> what is the what do we think this would cost like all that um asking the administration >> because if we have thousand thousand people sharing their issues yes we know

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right there might be more than that but I'm saying that we also have to think about how are we going to resolve it ultimately Everything is coming back to how are we resolving these >> maybe increasing thinking about um collectively to increase the fines

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because if there are really you know big landlords they don't care about $2,000 maybe the size of the building thinking about increasing the uh the fine so that there's a possibility they will pay

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attention instead of ignoring it completely. But in the meantime, that can be our that can be the side steps we should be taking. >> I agree. Researching all of that um as we we move toward the tenant forums that

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looks like we're going to be hosting. It's great. Um and having I guess the next if if we've decided this the next two months be the monthly meetings where we have tenants come and speak. We've already talked about the procedure there. Um, so maybe it buys us a little

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time, but if it's appropriate, I I think this was earlier in the agenda and it just didn't get discussed too much. But, um, maybe it's not on the agenda exactly, just the next time we bring members of city government or the courts

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or whoever we bring next. Um, I think having clear procedure in how we're all operating and how we're coordinating to be able to ask the questions that we've prepared that would be really helpful and those that's some reflection I have

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from the previous two meetings is it's been quite ad hoc um and I want to make sure that we all you know and and that's like my office can make sure to get the get the questions in on time and we need to do our due diligence but um I think

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just reflecting on I think we we need to be coordinated and we need to know as a team as a whole committee how we're going to be proceeding with a series of questions and yeah what our goals are >> and they will be coming prepared so we'll get the answers right there

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>> and and and and also I'm sorry I'm still reading this this email I mean this I'm baffled right because now I'm reading um summons a summons you know it was Um the the the summon was

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given. Defendant failed to appear. No warrants given. And and this is one property, three different summones, and no warrants were issued. I mean, I I know this isn't you. This is

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the prosecutor's office. But, you know, if if if if we're going to if if if if we're going to if we're going to, you know, make sure that um violations are are taken care of, if if we're going

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to set an example, I mean, it it shouldn't matter who the person is because I'm looking at the address. I know who the person is. Not going to say the name on record, but it it's it's it's someone who gets away with a lot of things

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everywhere in this city. Sorry, I didn't mean to summon you. >> Feel free. Um I'm happy to look into it with you. I don't know that I can elucidate the specific case without further information. depends on if it's an individual defendant or if it's a corporate defendant. Um, you heard a

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little bit from the municipal prosecutor about some of the differences and how those are treated in court. Not sure if there's a question there, but I I understand the frustration and I'm happy to look into that case with you. >> Okay. And I I'll I'll send you the email because it's a it's a change. So, I'll

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I'll send it all to you. >> Okay. We'll share the name with my colleagues though >> also sending our questions to legal. So even they are on loop right all these

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questions that we want there. So at least they have little background. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And um you know, I I just want to note that that certainly is a priority of of myself and the chair um

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based on discussions with his office um that we we do want to when we get this information 10 days in advance. Thank you, councilwoman. When we get this information 10 days in advance, um not only will will we share the questions with the our guests, but

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we will also use it to compile an agenda and a structured order of questionings. Um we can certainly leave room for um questions that may come up in the course of the questioning, but you know, I I think um having having more structure

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in these meetings going forward is is definitely a positive thing. And thank you, Councilman Efos, for that recommendation. And um Erica, what was the timeline we decided when we had our first meeting? When are we supposed to submit the report based on our meetings? So we are

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keeping that in mind too. >> When are we supposed to summon the >> submit the report based on our meetings this committee? >> I think believe it's 90 days after the last meeting. So we did not decide any

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>> no that when our last meeting will be held has not been decided. >> Um we also discussed um possibility of continuing to meet after the report has been issued maybe not monthly but maybe quarterly just to

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touch base on the recommendations. Um, so in that case, I guess it wouldn't truly be the last meeting, but um, we could we could declare it the last regular meeting and then we could move to like monitoring style meetings. Um, which I believe I think this was a

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suggestion from the Ward D office or maybe the W F office. I I don't remember. Um I think this would be you know something where we we hold the last regular meeting we work on the report we issue the report within 90 days then after the issuance of the report you

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know we can have quarterly check-ins to sort of um you know see where we are on our legislative priorities. Um we can also request quarterly updates from the administration at those meetings. Um, for example, the number of cases that have been resolved, the

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number um of fees that have been collected, the number of um creek fix requests um relating to, you know, chapter 260, chapter 218, and chapter 254 that are coming in and kind of measure progress over time. Um, that's

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an idea that was brought up um in in a small group of council offices that was sunshine compliant because it was less than the threshold for sunshine. Um, so I'm curious what what folks think about that. >> Absolutely. As long as there are cases,

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we should be meeting and we should be trying to resolve them. I don't see any issues with that. >> Good. And if folks after our regular meetings end, if folks feel that they don't have the bandwidth to continue because they

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did not sign up for an indefinite committee, they signed up for a committee with a defined end date, then that is also okay and we can restructure the committee at that time. I don't want to prescript anyone. But also what is happening that the way we started

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obviously we were thinking resolving small issues here and there right now I feel we are still trying to structure the meeting so it's going to take some time >> okay great um

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if we don't have any other um discussion of findings today and possible legislative remedies or recommendations to the administr ation. Um, I wanted to um put forward um a suggested draft report outline um that we can bear in

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mind as we're holding these future meetings. Um and if and also bear in mind that we can add sections and we if people have ideas today, we can make note of those in the minutes. And if people have ideas as we

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learn more, we can also always it can be an ongoing conversation. But um I wanted to put forward a draft report outline for discussion. Um so you all have this in your agenda. Um be section one background information and charge of committee. Section two overview of

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testimonies given. Section three findings and recommendations on department policies administration and enforcement. Section four findings and plan of action for legislative changes. And section five conclusion. Um, I want

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to open up for discussion. >> Yeah. No, I think this this makes sense at a basic level. Um, and as we get closer to starting our actual report writing process, I I'm sure we might tweak things, but I think this is good to have

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in our back pocket as the basic structure we we should be thinking through. Um, thank you for that. Thank you. Any other comments? Uh, Councilman Griffin, we just um read into the record

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the draft the proposed draft report outline and opened it for discussion to see if you had any feedback on that. The proposed report outline for when after the conclusion of these regular meetings, we issue a report 90 days following. So, this is section six on

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our agenda. um if you had any feedback on the um suggested report outline. It's agenda item six. That's a good idea. So, um, so Councilwoman Singh just suggested

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um having a standing committee in order to be Sunshine compliant and also advance work on the report after our final meeting. We could have um our aids meet on a regular basis and then bring back >> yeah you know that that way that way

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we're in compliance with sun >> it can meet weekly I just feel that everything takes so much time and I feel that >> microphone >> sorry yes Erica that was your part-time job today to ask us to

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>> so what I'm re what okay can you hear sorry about that so what I'm suggesting that all our aids can create a subcommittee and they can meet weekly just for an hour or so so that we can rush the process.

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>> What would be the agenda of the subcommittee meeting? >> So the agenda will be same but they'll be working on like we are discussing five things here. So we have to start reaching out to the administration. They can do the research whatever is needed.

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They will create the plier for public meeting. So there the the multiple tasks can be achieved because through the subcommittee I don't know just >> I don't know if we need to call it a subcommittee or if we could just >> No, it's just our age >> informally we can have it. We can each

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of our offices can designate an age um >> yes >> or or a rotating aid depending on people's availability >> and >> and so the the aids would be so to respect the poor and to respect sunshine

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you would give the aids the uh power to approve artwork. >> Now I'm talking about flyers like >> Oh >> or would we have to go back and forth and have a meeting for you to vote on a flyer? No, that's that's what I'm that's

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what I'm talking about email that >> Yes, but we can't even all be on the same >> Yeah, right. Everyone can't be on the same email. >> So So saying that like look, we trust the aids with putting together a flyer and a graphic for getting for example getting out the information for this um

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tenants meeting. >> Yeah. Press release. >> Yeah. I mean it's a flyer like we >> unless they're putting I mean I mean I don't think anything appropriate is going to go on a flyer >> and we can copy the chair and co-chair

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for final approval. >> Yeah. Do it that yeah and then yeah >> we can be more organized. The idea is that we are meeting monthly and then next two meetings next month we just sharing public >> uh testimony. So in the meantime, we are

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getting the work done through our aids or through our offices. >> Sure. >> That's something that I mean we can't be on the email, but they can email each other like they can go through the >> Yeah. No limits on that. >> But I don't want to create extra work

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for our aids who are not here to sign up for it. >> So >> yeah, I guess I would just hesitate. >> They signed up when they took the job. >> Maybe not a standing meeting. I think they can communicate as necessary. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> And then also we there'll be six or

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seven of them. >> So think about it. It's not like not too much workload on one person because >> everybody is doing as a team. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> Yes. All of us have interns too. So >> Okay. >> Just want to confirm it's okay for seven

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aids to be on a group chat. All righty. Stay legal. >> So, we already our next section on the agenda is section 7 discussion of future hearing topics. We already talked a little bit about this. Um, we want our

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next two meetings July and August to be um hearing from tenants. I was wondering, I know we um penciled in um July 27th. I was wondering if we would want to have an a meeting earlier in August then so

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we can get back on that earlier in the month schedule. Um so perhaps um August 10th or August 3rd. The the 10th

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would the 10th be caucus because we have a midmon council meeting. >> I have caucus as Monday the 17th. >> Okay. >> And the midmon meeting is Wednesday the 19th of August. >> Okay.

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>> 10th is cool with me. I am well I want to note though that the Puerto Rican flag grazing is from 5 to 6 on the 10th. >> Um >> when is the flag? >> 5 to 6 the 10th >> 10th will be at

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>> um the the annex the um 39 carney. >> So it's not here. No. So it's not going to be here. So Would he want to have it start at 6:30 then to allow time if folks want to go to the Puerto Rican flag raising here and then

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we all carpool >> every date you're suggesting I have event >> oh no >> I postponed for July 2 >> what time is >> then August 10th again

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>> I had it for six >> I I wasn't able to hear it on the microphone the Puerto Rican A flag raising is where? >> I think it's here. >> The flag raising is here. >> Okay. Yes. Then it is inside the council chambers. All flag raisings have been

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moved from the balcony to council chambers to be fair to all nationalities. >> Sorry. Um yeah then in that we did not have meeting on August 10th. Sorry >> I think the suggestion was to go we're

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it would be at the annex for that meeting. >> Yeah >> could go >> but then we would like to be in the flag raising >> right. So I have the flag raising at 5:00 p.m. And so that way you know anyone who wishes to attend the flag raising can at least attend the first the first part of it and then if we want

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the meeting maybe we could start it at 6:30 p.m. at the annex. Um, and then maybe that means we leave early from the flag raising, but you know, >> we're 100% certain on the flag raising.

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Sorry. >> Um, that's confirmed on the flag raising. >> Put it on my calendar and I trust Chris. >> Yeah, >> put it on. >> Yes. Please join the Jersey City Puerto Rican Heritage Arts and Cultural Organization as they present the 63rd annual flag raising ceremony in the city

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hall plaza beginning at Sorry, wrong. Sorry, it was a email from a previous year. I don't have that email. >> Yeah, I don't have it on my calendar. So, >> okay. >> It Okay, I just

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>> Is there any other dates that can work? So >> August 3rd, >> why? A week later. >> No, that would be a week after. >> A week after the last one. Yeah, >> we don't have We only have one council

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meeting a month in July and August. So >> July and August. >> Yeah. >> You are not available on August 3rd, by the way. >> I'm not. >> Yeah. >> You have um >> Well, how about how about we do this? How about how about we do this? How

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about we have the meeting July 27th, August minus um the heights, every other council person um do their um

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rent protection town hall in August. You try to knock them all out in August and then reconvene September. >> Okay. So, we're scrapping the annex meeting, >> I guess. Thought that was the 27th.

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>> I thought the 27th was here and >> July 27th we are here. >> We wouldn't be scrapping it. We'll just That's what we'll hold it in September. >> Will we be hearing from tenants again in September? >> Will we what? >> Will we be hearing from tenants again in September or will we be hearing from

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people from the courts? >> Well, what Okay, so we have tenants for the August meeting. people signed up and we're good on that or >> Well, >> yes, >> we we haven't publicized it yet. So, I I

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thought I thought the suggestion was that next the next two meetings we would hear directly from tenants. >> Okay. >> But one of them would be here and one of them would be at the annex. >> I mean, we could do the next one at the

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annex, the other one here. I I just think we should we should have a meeting in August. Um, >> okay. So then >> I think the ordinance calls for a monthly. >> So then, so then let's >> or it's still late. >> Do it. All right. So then do it at 6.

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Does it have to be on a Monday? >> No. >> So can we do the 11th? >> Um, no. >> Easier if it's on Mondays only because of this committee. Um, it's been easiest to get all of you on Mondays. Um, how

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about we do it at 6:00 at the annex to also allow for more public engagement only because some people don't get off of work until 5. Um, and if you want more public engagement. >> So then we'll do it at 6:30, right? >> 6:30 would be great.

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>> The 10th >> 6:30 works. >> 6 Okay. 6:30 at the NX on the 10th, >> August 10th. >> 6:30. Well, excellent. >> The one in city hall is at 5. So, >> unless we want to move it up.

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>> Just want to say that if I'm not able to attend on August 10th, that should be okay, right? >> I mean, I I mean, I think five o'clock 5:00 is kind of early. Um like I've I've

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used to always have these issues. Um >> should we do them both at 6:30? 6:30 here and 6:30 at the annex and we can still >> I think I think if we want tenants to speak >> we should it shouldn't be 5:00 >> okay

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>> that's that's way too early >> but okay sorry but I want to say this again >> speak on the microphone >> that we can start >> 5:00 is way too early >> thank you >> so uh we can start at 5 so the seniors can come

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and then we can continue for rest of the evening or people coming from work. I just feel that for seniors and then there are a lot of seniors having trouble um attending the meeting. I just feel we

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can start early not 5 5:30 so that we can give them at least an hour to peak up here. I don't know that's my suggestion. Well, that part is still being drafted with Sarah with corporation council with regards to giving special privileges.

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>> But but also if if we're letting people line up like they do um to speak on a second reading ordinance, then >> like like we could take up the first hour with people who are here at 5 and if people cannot be here at 5, we can >> Yes.

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>> expect that people um >> to go beyond that. Yes, >> first come first served. >> Our meeting is not for an hour. Our meeting is going to be for two to four or maybe 5 hours. So, chances are

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everybody will a chance to speak. So, >> okay. So, we can do so we can keep if if it works for people, we can keep the one on the 27th at 5:00 p.m. And then people who are coming from work and don't get here till 6:30, that's also fine. And

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then I think the request was on the 10th to have it at 6:30 to allow people time. Y >> because of the the flag raising >> motion. Third. >> Great. We're going to go over all of

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your motions that we heard tonight during agenda item eight. You ready? Yeah. So, for agenda item eight, sorry, did we want So, I don't know that we need to make formal motions if we're

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going to request data. Um, we can just talk amongst ourselves and and divy up the work. Um, but I want to make sure we're we're um done with item seven on the agenda. Um, so we the next two meetings we want

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to hear from tenants. Um then we had the suggestion from court council that the meeting after the September meeting invite um judges, people from the municipal courts. >> Um >> yeah, can I suggest that we

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um defer those future setting up the agendas for the future meetings until we have our couple tenant hearings? >> Sure. Say that again. just that we don't set up the agenda and make requests of who we're going to hear from at the future meetings until our next tenant

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town hall or tenant meetings and then hear from them and then get a sense of our priority for the next um folks we want to call in. Does that make sense? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Based on if 100 people are talking about just one issue, we have to prioritize

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that. Thank you. Good. Great. Um, and then I also wanted to see if we wanted to potentially do another one of these working meetings in the future. Maybe

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not September, but maybe October, November, something like that. We can we can keep it as an option. We don't have to decide today. Okay. >> Sorry. You said a working meeting. >> Yeah, like this one. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. This is nice.

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So, I have four drafted motions that I heard over the course of this evening. Uh, you can motion to um you can make your motion in your seconds after I read it into the

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record. >> Before you do that, just just want to confirm um Oan said July 27th works or or potentially works. Yeah. >> Mhm.

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>> Yeah. >> It looked okay on his calendar at this point. >> Okay, great. >> Ready? On the motion to require that proposed questions for invited witnesses at meetings of the rent protection

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special investigation committee be submitted no later than 10 days prior to the scheduled meeting through the designated committee email account administered by the committee secretaries. The chair and the co-chair shall compile and transmit those questions to invited

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witnesses and the administration in advance of the meeting to facilitate complete and informed responses. Nothing herein shall preclude reasonable follow-up pre questions during the meeting. Do we have a first and second? >> Motion.

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>> Second. >> Motion made by Little, seconded by Griffin. >> I hear I don't Councilwoman and for the vote we have Zupa absent for the record. Council person Efos.

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>> Hi. >> Council person Little. >> Council Council Person Griffin. >> I. >> Council person Singh. >> Hi. Council President Gilmore is absent. Council person Lavaro. >> I. >> Motion passes 502

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for the motion to require proposed questions 10 days in advance. On the motion to establish a public comment period of up to five minutes per speaker at meetings of the rent protection special investigation committee subject to adjustment by the

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chair as necessary to ensure the orderly conduct of business. The committee shall make reasonable efforts to conclude its meetings by midnight unless extended by a majority vote of the committee. On the motion, sir, >> um just really quickly, um I I do want

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to let Councilwoman Singh have the motion if she if she wants it. Um but, uh when we have staff members here, I think I believe we need more than five minutes. So, I think this is for when it's a public hearing. Okay. um as opposed to when we have invited guests

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for specific testimony. Does can can we distinguish between that and the wording? Does that >> So it it starts to establish a public comment period. >> Um okay. Are does that mean we're going to have a public comment per period at every meeting?

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>> Good question. So we can word this a little bit better. So to establish a public hearing at specified dates with a public comment period of you're establishing these two public hearings.

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>> Yeah, I think that that that makes sense. >> Two public hearing. Yes, >> we required to have motions and allied votes for for these uh >> you're setting rules.

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>> That's a good question. >> Um these are like bylaws that you're making. >> I would >> sure >> Sarah's gone to but to to be safe. I would say on record who wanted these raw who wanted these rules in place and who

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didn't. >> Can I sir >> since we're doing this? >> Speak into the top of your mic. >> Since Since we're >> All right. Since Since we're doing this, should we should we be thinking about

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um because it's not a council meeting, um putting a a cap on how many people are signing up to speak or they're just >> a second reading.

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>> Oh, okay. Well, >> and this is just for the July 27th and August 10th meeting. >> I was just Okay, that's fine. Uh so on the motion to establish two public hearings on July 27th and August 10th to allow for a public comment

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period of up to five minutes per speaker at these meetings of the Rat Protection Special Investigation Committee subject to the adjustment by the chair as necessary to ensure orderly conduct of business. The committee shall make reasonable efforts to conclude

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these meetings by 12:00 a.m. unless extended by majority vote of the committee. I make the motion. >> Second. >> Okay. Motion made by council person singed by Ephos. On the vote for this

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motion, Zupa is absent. Council person Ephos >> I. >> Council person Little. >> Council President Gilmore is absent. Council person Singh. >> I. Council me Griffin. >> I. >> And council person Labaro.

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Hi. There you are. Think about that. >> Motion passes 502. >> On the motion to direct that notice of each public hearing of the rent protection special investigation committee, including instructions for submitting questions or testimony be

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publicized through the city's official social media channels, website, and other appropriate communication platforms. The committee shall also explore lawful methods of notifying interested tenants and stakeholders, including individuals who have previously submitted housing related

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complaints through city systems consistent with applicable privacy laws and policies. >> I don't I don't think we can direct the administration to do something. I don't think that's lawful for this committee to do, but I think we could recommend. >> Okay. So, on the motion to recommend,

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>> read strongly recommend. >> Read it again. >> Sorry. On the motion to strongly recommend that a notice of each public hearing of the rent protection special investigation committee, including instructions for submitting questions or testimony, be publicized through the

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city's official social media channels, website, and other appropriate communication platforms. The committee shall also explore lawful methods of notifying interested attendee sorry interested tenants and stakeholders including individuals who have

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previously submitted housing related complaints through city systems consistent with applicable privacy laws and policies. >> Uh let's let's take the city out and if they're able to do it, they'll do it. So

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like can I can I see that Erica please? True. Oh, it's on the computer. Even worse, I need glasses. If um So, what if it's Wait, which one am I looking at? Oh, oh, you put

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strongly. Okay, so that notice >> while he's reading that, I just want to say Erica, you missed your calling. >> Yeah, that was I said >> I know she should be a clerk, right? You >> missed your calling. This is good work you're doing there. How about if if it's a motion that

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notice of each public hearing of the rent protection special investigation committee, including instructions for submitting questions or testimony that be publicized. pass through the

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city's officials. >> I think it should say requesting the city to >> Yeah, but I don't know that we need to make a motion for this. I think we can just request >> Yeah, that's Yeah, that's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that >> so request and I'm

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>> so motion fails to be introduced. >> Nay, >> I didn't even get a motion. So, uh, and the the other one is a motion to request that corporation council conduct a legal review of the city's housing code

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enforcement framework and advise the committee on the feasibility, legal implications, and potential benefits of converting certain housing and rent related ordinance violations from quasi criminal proceedings to civil enforcement mechanisms, including any legislative changes that may improve

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enforcement efficiency, increase compliance, and enhance the city's ability to collect penalties. while protecting due process rights. >> I don't think that needs to be a motion. >> We need a resolution, Sarah. Corporation council. >> It'll need a resolution.

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>> I I think we can work with Yeah, I think we can just work with corp counsel to >> Yeah, I I remember hearing corporation council generously offering to work with us on these already on the record. So, I'm I'm satisfied with that. But if others want a motion, good.

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>> Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back. >> We'll just remind the council that some of what you are soliciting is legal advice which is privileged. So we may not be able to have all of these conversations in this public forum. >> Okay. >> Noting that for the record.

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>> Okay. >> Thank you. >> So we can work with you on legislation in emails. >> Okay. Motion fails. Uh and we will continue to draft future motions. But that is all for today. Did

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I miss anything? >> Motion. >> Okay. Okay. >> A second. >> I No, no, we have a motion to adjourn. Do >> Oh, I was um also saying that I had a suggestion from Arjun um about finding

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out many violations and how many outstanding cases are exist in each ward. But that's something we can just email and and request the information from from the parties. So, >> these are all things we can do offline. >> And do we need a motion to invite a

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speaker from the municipal court administration to future meetings to get testimony? >> I I think we were going to wait to see what happens in the hearings >> right until public hearing. I remember that. Thank you so much. Okay. On the motion to adjurnn made by

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>> Monta Singh motions to adjurnn. Seconded by >> second >> third fourth and fifth >> and I give the third to Griffin on a motion to adjurnn. Council person Zupa is absent. Efos >> I >> little >> hi. >> Gilmore is absent. Sing

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>> you out. >> The motion >> need to vote on record. >> I >> Griffin >> Sean if you're watching your days are numbered. Hi, >> Lavaro. >> I just want to say good job, Erica.

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Thank you for all your help and um I'm I'm uh encouraged by the direction we're taking. I thank my colleagues and uh looking forward to those public hearings. I vote I >> All right, motion carries. Uh 7:15 is

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our German time. Have a good day. Stay safe. Be blessed. >> Teamwork makes the dreamwork. And that was not a threat to Shawn. I'mma have my own saying, peace and power. Peace. All power to the people. >> Um, but you did amazing. Thank you,

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Erica. >> Thank you. And thank you, Daniela.