Good morning everyone. We are on the record. Today is Wednesday, the 29th day of July in the year 2026. This is a budget hearing for the municipal court with the Jersey City Municipal Council. We had a scheduled 10 a.m. start. The
clock on my cell phone is showing 10:05 a.m. May I have a roll call for the commencement of this budget hearing? Council person Brooks is not here. Council person Zupa >> here. >> Council person Efos >> here. >> Council person Little >> here.
>> Council person Gilmore and Sing are not here or Griffin or Lavaro. And council president Ridley >> here. So, we have four council members in attendance at
10:05 a.m. Just watching at home. We do not need a quorum to move on with budget hearings. Just for the record. In addition, at time of its preparation, the notice of this meeting was similarly
disseminated on Thursday, July 23rd, 2026 at 1:32 p.m. to the mayor, municipal council, business administrator, corporation council, and the locals new newspapers. So, I can certify as a total compliance with the Sunshine Law. And I see council person
Brooks present at 10:06 a.m. So, we now have five council members present. Council President, I'm going to turn it over to you. Uh, good morning everyone. Thank you to members of the municipal court for being here this morning. I just want all of our um
council members to know that our chief judge does have a family emergency that he so graciously stepped away from for the moment to do this budget hearing. So, I ask that we keep that in mind as we're moving through um so that he can get back to attending to his family. And
this session is going to be led by our councilwoman Little. So, I will turn it over to her at this time. >> Thank you so much for being here this morning. Um, we're going to let you guys get started with your presentation. Um, my understanding is the public defender
may be on his way. And um but given that you have a family emergency and that he's not here right now um we will start with municipal court and if and when the public defender arrives we will do public defender second. >> And before we start I just want to mark
council person sing present at 10:07 a.m. So we now have six council members present and that may change. Did >> did you mark council president Brooks already? Okay great. Okay. So, without further ado, looking
forward to seeing your presentation. >> Got to push that close to you. And you just got to turn it on. There you go. BA is a pro now. So, is this proper? This good? >> Just a little bit closer. Sorry, judge. >> No worries. No worries. How about that? >> That's perfect.
>> Very good. Thank you. Okay. Good morning and uh thank you council president and member of the councils uh for your concern and consideration as well as for giving us our own uh budget hearing. Uh I want to thank business administrator Choy as well for that opportunity because I think although part of the
department of administration, we are a big large entity. We have several employees and we're also uniquely situated in that uh we are a city agency but at the same time we are part of the state judiciary and while other municipal agencies may have oversight for some state departments uh and
entities we have a direct reporting line through the judiciary which starts with the presiding judge assignment judge all the way up to the chief justice of supreme court and we regularly our administrative arm is the uh New Jersey administrative office of the courts. So in light of those circumstances, thank
you for your time today. Uh we have uh multiple things we want to present and uh answer any relevant questions that you may have. So let's begin. Uh we can go to the first slide. Excuse me. Okay. So what we do uh we are the second
largest municipal court in terms of volume case volume cases filed annually only second to Newark. Our jurisdiction concerns matters arising within the territories of Jersey City uh that in uh involve the Jersey City Municipal Code
as well as certain applicable New Jersey statutes and regulations. Uh you can see our subject matter jurisdiction uh very diverse motor vehicle offenses that uh include everything from driving under the influence to traffic enforcement to
parking enforcement. Uh you can imagine how impactful some of those uh subject matter areas are in a city the size, not to mention the transit uh issues we have uh sharing a um a border with a very large city and not to mention the amount
of cars that are regularly on our roads uh on a daily basis. Uh with respect to the criminal matters, I just want to note that we hear so many remanded cases, lower level criminal cases that come from the Hudson County Superior Court. So our docket there is
substantial as well. Uh I I think when you look at other municipal courts, they do not hear as many high at lower level criminal offenses, but certain things like simple assaults. Um shopliftings sometimes are routinely heared in the superior court level, but we are
distinct in that many things get remanded to us and we and that in comprises our criminal docket. Of course, you're all very familiar with the fact we hear municipal ordinance violations, code enforcement, uh in those subject matter areas, housing, housing, fire, construction, environmental. Uh when I speak to
business licensing, I'm speaking more to the there are elements of the certain chapters of the municipal code that speak to hours of operation. If you're uh an entertainment venue, you must get licensure through the uh through the um uh the ordinances as well as uh
short-term rental uh ordinance as well. we have jurisdiction over that matter. Uh and then finally, there's some very unique but distinct uh areas for us as a municipal court. We have a truency, we hear truency cases and a significant volume uh in collaboration with both
public and charter schools and of course with all the transit um outlets here in the city between Port Authority, New Jersey Transit, uh we have uh we're many times inundated with fair evasion. Okay. Now what's my key takeaway from uh this
slide is if you see the majority now of cases first appearances I should say all let me qualify that all first appearances now in municipal courts throughout the state are mandated to be uh held virtually uh this is per an order of the New Jersey state supreme
court. It was handed uh down in 2022 with respect to operations post the COVID pandemic. So that's really where uh I want to note that because it's very relevant to what we're going to discuss moving forward in terms of some of our initiatives what we've done to uh use
technology to create efficiencies. Uh so the percentage now I would say is about 70% to 30% with respect to virtual appearances versus in-person appearances. So yes, so per the uh the Supreme Court's directive and order, every first appearance now in municipal
courts throughout the state have to be done remotely uh through the virtual virtual platform. Okay, thank you. We can go to the next one. Okay, here are six uh services we provide. I I just want to highlight uh a few uh language accessibility.
every court user in the state of New Jersey per judiciary directive uh and rule is required to be given the assistance of an interpreter not just for an in court proceeding but anything court related so it's obviously the the
most obvious is a proceeding in court where one doesn't is not proficient in English they're provided an interpreter and also anyone who wants to access our building fill out a public defender form pay a fine any services at the municipal court that are offered there must be uh
must be if you require an interpreter you must be provided one that is judiciary mandate um and when we I raise it now for the services because we're we we do engage interpreter services both in person and uh we use some technology
options as well via the uh zoom platform as well as telephonically but I'm raising it now because it's going to inform our discussion later when it comes to cost uh and what interpreter costs uh mean to our our operating expense line. But I just want to uh
frame it now with respect to our services. Uh we'll have a more substantive discussion as we move along the presentation regarding costs. Alternative alternative resolution. We are uniquely situated for a municipal court to offer so many both specialty court diversionary type programs as well
as a a very involved mediation program where we have mediators who are statecertified and trained who appear regularly weekly to uh allow for the option for litigants who if they meet the criteria and there's specific
criteria for which um under state law what allows for mediation of certain cases. uh if they qualify the mediators uh will attempt to resolve the issue without uh any court action which is very beneficial to um I think when you see it most utilized is your neighborly
dispute disputes uh amongst individuals who end up filing complaints but in essence can resolve it by way of a mediator who can um can effectually uh effectively resolve it without a uh without the court any court action. We also have specialty courts that are
unique uh to municipal courts in New Jersey. They deal with domestic violence, mental health counseling, and of course we have a community court program which is as you can see in the slide entitled Jersey City Community Solutions. Um all of them are diversioning type programs where the
attempt is to benefit the defendants by way of treatment with respect to community solutions. It's uh community service where you you try to reach an outcome that's less penal in nature, less um doesn't involve one incurring a criminal
record. So the outcome is improved for the defendant, but also address the underlying social, substance, whatever it might be, mental health challenges that these defendants experience and have led them to exposure with the criminal justice system. Uh it works for both uh the the the individual who can
potentially obtain the services they need. Um whether it be housing, mental health, counseling, substance abuse. Uh it runs the full gamut, but also at the same time uh effective for reducing rec recidivism and also net benefit both in cost savings to um the government
entities, but as well as well as to uh less repeat offenders. So that's what really what the focus is of all of our uh alternative resolution type uh programs we have and I just wanted to just particularly highlight those of the six um on the board there because that's uh they're very unique to municipal
court uh municipal courts in New Jersey. Okay, thanks. We can go to the next one. Okay, so what we accomplished so far, so this is going to speak specifically to services. uh as I noted earlier, you know, we we wear we're in two different
uh roles, both a judiciary and a city agency. This slide is going to speak specifically to a uh to services to court users. I want to when we move forward talk about accomplishments in terms of case case management, case disposition and reducing backlog uh and the judiciary function, but for purposes
now, this slide speaks to u some matters that we've addressed in terms of approving services uh for court users. Uh now I know all of you on the council are very familiar um with constituent complaints regarding the phones at the municipal court. How uh I I hear it
regularly uh and it's consistent. It predates uh my tenure on the bench. Uh it's been decades now where there's been complaints revol uh regarding the responsiveness of the phone lines, the uh wait times and the like. So really
most recently we enacted if you see bullet uh heading number one this was really a a recent initiative that's proved to be very successful thus far and in essence what it is is we've used technology to create a a dashboard with
real-time visibility into what the phone lines look like. So if I can explain it in real time how it works. Multiple supervisors within the courthouse have monitors in front of them. they can see in real time how many calls in the queue, how many individuals are on hold,
what is the wait time to get through. What we do simultaneously then is those supervisors will then pull um resources i.e. personnel to work the phone lines and quickly flood the the phones so that
we can quickly reduce the time and clear the queue and have everything answered. And if you see the result, average weight times went from 15 minutes to five minutes by implementation of this uh this initiative. So it's been very successful. We also upgraded um use the
technology and I know this seems so basic but sometimes it technological initiatives are slow when uh when it comes to government implementation but nonetheless the phone system now allow for a allow a call back feature. So, an individual can call uh can't get through
directly. They can leave a voicemail with a message with their contact information and their preferred time to be uh called back. And we're utilizing that as well. And it's really proved to be a very a very big improvement to a customer service problem that's really been um uh persistent for a long time
now. So, we're very proud of that and we're going to continue to use whatever technology we have at our disposal to improve the the court user experience. And just quickly on the last one, uh, uh, well, I should say heading three to be specific. Uh, we're using technology throughout the building to just improve
the court user experience. Uh, making visible using, you know, boards and kioses to direct court users to their hearing uh, hearing room specific uh, their specific time. If they want to input any information in the kiosk to get specifics as to uh, their court
case, they can do that as well. And that too is um improving the the court user experience. Okay. Expanding access and cutting city costs. So this slide speaks to um a point that I think is important to highlight in that of course we're going
to discuss our budget and our operating expenses and the efficiencies that we've done just with respect to the municipal court budget. But I think what needs to be taken into account as well is there are savings realized by other city agencies by virtue of our initiatives and that's what this this slide uh
attempts to highlight. And we'll start with the um heading one which with regard to equitable access to virtual court. So as per my intro regarding the Supreme Court uh directive in 2002 that to require that every first appearance
in municipal court be virtual or remote. We were concerned because having an understanding of our city um and knowing the the um our our citizens and the like, we were very worried that there was going to be barriers to participation. Uh there this is not just
specific to our city. This is a problem nationwide when we talk about access to stable broadband when we talk to access to obtain a smartphone, a PC. And that can prove to be a barrier to participation in something now was mandated for the majority of people who have any interfacing with the municipal
court. So in order to address that and realize cost savings for the court user, what we did was we repurposed a we have rooms in the I I'm sure some of you have been to our building. If not, we like to host you one day. I hope you all have an opportunity to come and tour the building. Uh but for those of you who
have been there and are familiar with our building, we have rooms on the first floor in the lobby that are traditionally used for lawyers to conference with their clients. Uh other the interpreter to um be stationed in while they were waiting being called for
a case. We used one of those room we rep we repurposed one of those rooms to a a virtual with uh a virtual platform. In essence we placed a PC in the room. It's connected to broadband and we also have staff that attend to it. And in essence,
any person who does not have the ability to join a virtual court session on their own. They are free and they we encourage them to come to the courthouse, come to 365 Summit Avenue and just access the room. All the equipment is there. The internet connection is stable and we have staff if it's not just if it's just
if it's uh a limitation in terms of being technologically savvy. I know we experienced that a lot in the onset of virtual uh court proceedings. many individuals just weren't comfortable or did not have the innate ability to to go through the process. It can be involved the waiting rooms and virtual waiting
rooms and and the like. Um so we we were trying to eliminate that barrier as well by staffing it with individuals who will do everything for the person, log them in uh and and make sure that they're they have all the functionality and assistance they need. So, we're very
we're very um we're very proud of that initiative and we're looking to expand on it and I will get into that. That's a subject of a future slide. So, I just wanted to um highlight that. Now, I'm going to uh skip to I think we discussed uh we sort of discussed
heading two prior. We're just continuing to use technology to improve the court uh the court user experience. that's just more uh specific to uh certain uh certain technologies we're implementing to provide information in real time to everyone who's in the courthouse. But heading three is a specific initiative.
But if I can just start and preface heading three with the discussion that um other agencies particularly the enforcement agencies are impacted by what we do. And I highlighted this uh this particular initiative we're doing, but we're always looking to improve our
services or augment what we do in order to reduce cost for the other entities. For example, we've expanded some of our operations 24/7 uh to to have 247 coverage for certain things in order to allow police making arrests to process
arrests and quickly get back to patrol. The reason being it eliminates overtime costs which can be one of the largest drivers of um our budget the the municipal budget in general. So we've done that. We've we've created certain we've uh some of our functionality that
was traditionally done uh from normal business hours from 8:00 a.m. till uh the close of business at 9:00 whenever night court ends is now we've trans we've augmented it. We have the certain individuals providing those functions 24/7. It's assisting the Jersey City
Police Department in terms of processing arrests and being back on patrol very quickly. I've highlighted that initiative because this is what we're aspiring to do now. We're working in conjunction with the assignment judge for the visage and the Jersey City Police Department to create a one-stop
shop for all uh domestic violence related filing of temporary restraining orders. Currently now the municipal courts this not just specific to Jersey City but more voluminous in Jersey City because of our large population. The municipal court judges are handling I
would say 80% of all applications for temporary restraining orders throughout the state currently. Again we've used our resources to really um meet that moment and meet the increased workload there. What we did was we converted another room in the
municipal court to a safe serenity room. And in essence, what it is, it's a safe space, a protected locked door, uh that's very comforting with couches, uh toys for kids, but any uh survivor or victim of domestic violence who is making application for a temporary
restraining order or is in court for a uh domestic violence related case can access that room. It's kid-friendly. If they, you know, a lot of a lot of our population doesn't have access uh to ready uh readily available child care, you can bring your children there. It's
a room specifically for that for that purpose. What we'd like to do is utilize the fact that we have that room. It has a phone line. It's equipped with everything necessary. Maybe create a one-stop shop for all applications for temporary restraining orders in Jersey City. That's the initiative uh we're
focused on. We're working with the assignment judge who's a great and amazing partner to all our efforts. He's uh heavily vested in that. He's he was a former presiding judge for the family division asex visage. So he's um he's he's we're working together on that. And
in terms of the cost savings there is that again it's another instance where you're streamlining a JCPD function quickly allowing patrol and the like to get back to uh whatever their duties might be again less overtime more cost
savings. We can go to the next one. Okay so this slide is this is our calendar year 2026 budget. uh very austere if as you can see all our all our costs are associated
with wage and wage and uh salaries and I can speak to the fact that the only increases are mandated either by union contract training requirements there are certain uh training requirements that if you obtain you're entitled to an increase in salary everything is
mandated by contract or cost of living adjustments longevity uh all all contractual but very stable in terms of uh our our salary and wage line. And as you can see, it's it is not high when it comes to operating expenses,
even more uh more lean 141,500 for all our operating all our operations. I'd like to return now to that conversation about interpreters because it speaks to our operating expenses. You'll see the line item, and I'm sure you might have seen it in the packet
that was provided today, $200,000 earmarked for for professional services, the majority of which is for interpreting services. Uh it is a significant cost and given the diversity of our city and the percentage of individuals who are foreignb born who
require their English is not their first language. Not only do we have to provide interpreters frequently, we also have every all types of languages you can imagine. It is ex and it and it and the cost of procuring an interpreter who is
not readily available i.e. a language that is not commonly uh used and uh regularly in in different uh for different purposes that that drives up the costs. So that's really where where the where the professional services uh um expenses are coming from. That's
that's it's and that's why I wanted to highlight that there and show. But otherwise, $141,000 uh in essence to run the court, do all these services that we've alluded to. Uh and not to mention, if you look at it in comparison to uh the collection costs uh
that uh from our operations, it's it's com it's it's it's very disparit. We we're we are bringing in bringing in much more than what it cost to to operate our operate the municipal court. So
we can go to the next slide. Okay. So here's just getting a little more into the cost savings for this year. personnel approximately $85,000 uh attrition and um departures and then we come to the operating
expenses and again where I wanted to um engage a conversation regarding what is uh referred to as the parking offense uh adjudication act which is a state uh
estate fund that is administered by the assignment judge for Hudson Visage created by state law which in essence aortions a certain amount of every parking summons paid or any parking enforcement where there's a fine assessed there is a certain portion that
goes directly to the municipal again per my discussion earlier regarding the volume of cars in in the city how big the city is it is very flush it is approximately the last estimate I saw about $2.7 million in that account
however it can only be utilized for parking related type matters. So it is not so any expenditure from it has to be related to parking offenses. Now given our volume of parking offenses that we hear regularly within the 100,000 range
in terms of cases we've made use of we've been able to make use of it significantly. So just for for context, that $142,000 number represents just in calendar year 2026 what we've utilized it for to take that those monies away from the
operating budget. And if you look in comparison, I know we flipped the slide, but we're only requesting 142,000 in operation expenses. We we found that same number by way of utilization of the of the the PAA account. Uh and if you
just if you want want to look at what we've highlighted some of the uses, it subsidize a lot of the expenses associated with virtual court. It also uh in terms of cost savings to the other agencies that's been part of this discussion. The parking authority,
the police department, traffic and parking summones, the electronic endper ones are all funded through the POA uh the POA account. So it's creating significant savings there for other agencies and also uh if you see in terms of emergency
repairs and I have to thank uh BHO again for her assistance on this but in June during one of the what seems to be endless heat waves that we've experienced this summer. The HVAC was uh um there was a problem with our HVAC. It was not working. Uh the temperatures
were stifling. Um and not just for employees but the public. We're having numerous amount of people come into our building regularly for court cases, for services, the like. It was uh temperatures that were quite extreme, but we were able to utilize the fund and I also want to thank the assignment judge for that is a great partner uh and
was very uh assisted us tremendously in getting close to $100,000 for temporary cooling units. And that that that was that was cost that cost multiplier because if if you think about it, we didn't have to we didn't have to close the building. we would have in any
other circumstances might have had to been closed for 3 to four days, but we didn't have to. We were able to uh avoid that by way of the utilizing that significant sum and we and we were able to do so because of our massive parking uh enforcement docket that allows for for us to utilize that. So, I'm going to
get into on the next slide, we're going to talk a little bit more about how we intend to augment that and and use that more. Uh so, we'll go over that. Okay. If I may, since I just discussed the P uh P O AA, let me start with heading two. I think it just the
conversation uh the discussion flows better that way. So, yeah. So, that's what we're going to look to do. We're going to look to work uh with the assignment judge uh to find what we can that's related to parking enforcement to utilize this uh account as much as as much as possible. Um everyone is acutely
aware uh including at the visage uh the sim judge of our our budget issues that we have now and we're looking it just has to comply with the law. We have to be compliant with the law that it's something with respect to parking enforcement. But we're going to attempt uh to look at everything every operation
everything we do and see if we can find ways to use that fund. uh what I would like to do and what my current initiative is do uh I have it in front of me is I'm trying to do it for interpreter services and as you can see that's the second bullet point given how
much uh that operating line is uh what our thinking is if we're hearing hundreds and thousands of parking cases a year or at least adjudicating hundreds and thousands of parking cases a year uh we should be able to get there's some percentage there of individuals who
require the assistance of an interpreter who are who are there to to handle a parking ticket. Um, and in light of that, if we can wrap our wrap our hands around what that number is, what percentage it is, I I think I'm confident that we can potentially recoup
some of the interpreter costs um from that from this fund. I if if that's the case, uh if we can do that. So, that's what that's what we're working on with respect to um uh the the POA fund. Uh quickly just I'll just stay with heading
two for now because we're on it. Also um postco uh what happened well I should say during COVID uh many emergency measures were enacted by the New Jersey state judiciary. One of them being is the suspension of using collection
agencies to recoup uh pass due fines that now has been rescended. However, to engage a collection agency, there is a process. You have to formally petition the um the administrative office of the
courts and make the request and uh it is a process. It requires a filing and interfacing and approval from uh from the state entity. However, we're already looking into that. We're working with the corporation council. Uh I believe she is going to lead the process on that
in terms of petitioning the um the AOC uh to allow that. So that's another area uh with respect to um recouping costs that we're we're looking into at the time. Okay. Uh heading one, we'll just go go back to heading one. So this is if I could speak now to this point when we
talked about um uh initiatives and accomplishments. I wanted to speak now to the judiciary side of that, the court side. We have reduced backlog significantly uh since um the uh the pandemic. Uh obviously you can imagine due to the disruptions in shutting down
court operations, closures and then there's just transition to virtual proceedings there was a massive backlog in every case category uh that um across the board. In five of the six major case categories, we have significantly reduced our backlog uh in all of those
areas with respect to parking maybe within the 100 thousand uh hundred thou by hundreds and hundreds and thousands of cases to the point where I think it was an 80% reduction from from uh from COVID from the peak. I regularly get calls from
other municipal chief judges asking what we did, how how did we effectively do that and we've had similar suspects with the other case areas, criminal uh motor vehicle uh and DWI and the like. The one area that remains to be a challenge and I know uh it's a specific to many of you
uh on the council um is in the or with respect to ordinance violations. So, I wanted to take an opportunity to maybe speak to what those challenges are and why I think we are where we are with 50,000 in backlog. Um, and I think it has to do with a lot of just the opera
the legality surrounding the the uh the prosecution of these cases. The majority of I would say at least the ones who are issued substantial amounts of ordinance violations tend to be corporate entities. They are organized either as corporations or LLC's. There are there
are decisions particularly from the New Jersey State Appellet Division now that have limited uh what was done prior to potentially serve or issue summones to individual the individual person associated with the corporate entity. There is an appellet division case that
clearly uh says that the LLC's are the defendants or the corporate entity is the defendant and you must seek uh seek prosecution of that entity. uh that's caused challenges because there there's it's hard to secure an appearance when you don't have the same enforcement
tools. I think that's one one challenge. Uh secondly, uh until recently the many of these matters were the judiciary prohibited the issuance of bench warrants for for failure to appear. uh because quite frankly it's it's a different uh lens
when it comes to municipal court small suburban town versus a big city like this where you know if you look at it just in the abstract a zoning violation u not picking up your garbage in a in a smaller municipality doesn't pose a public safety challenge whereas in a
city like this with this population uh being negligent or not policing or enforcing those type of things can create significant public public safety challenges so I think That's part of it as well. But nonetheless, here we are and what we're looking to do to address it, at least on the court side. I can't
speak to the other branches. A lot of this has to do with prosecution. Um, and I won't speak to that because it's I'm mindful of the separation of powers and it's really u not within my purview, but what we'll do as a court is we're going to try to replicate what we did in reducing backlog in the other case
areas. In essence, assign judges uh more judges to hear these type of cases. We we did that with respect to the other backlogged areas where we regularly review what our case numbers are. The ones that are high highly backlogged. We assign more judges to and also expand
the number of hearings. Uh traditionally the evening sessions were for motor vehicle and parking offenses just because if you've the individuals who come for those uh requesting evening court appearances are working working people who have jobs who can't aren't available during the day and want those
are the most that's the larger universes that of summones that are issued. But now we're going to look to expand it into the evening division. We're going to make as many court sessions available as possible to hear these cases. And we're also going to look into doing special sessions. We did special sessions for uh for the um for the
parking cases which we were very successful with. Uh the only complication there uh it does come with a cost. It is a very modest cost and I think if you look at a do a costbenefit analysis the limited amount of money to put in uh will yield tremendous um dividends but nonetheless we will have
to if we do anytime we consider special sessions it requires staffing those sessions uh and all other uh costs associated with them. So uh we're looking into that. Unfortunately, uh, in this instance, we do not have the POA account because there are not parking offenses. We were able to make use of it for parking tickets, which is a was a
great benefit to us. That's not available now, but we're again looking at every avenue, exploring any way we can potentially do that. Um, another way of when we speak to efficiencies in terms of case reduction and reduction of backlog, case disposition and reduction
of backlog, uh, we have the authority in conjunction with the assignment judge to amend the local fine schedule in essence to make certain offenses payable offenses that do not require an appearance. Um, just to give one example to you so you um so and you can uh see
in real time what we're referring to. Many of the snow tickets, failure to remove snow and ice from a property. They're still requiring court appearances on those and I I think I've had this conversation with my counterparts. I I don't see why that can't be like just for an example many
summones where I I I just amending that schedule can make them payable. Individuals can just go online and resolve them. No court appearance. I think it's efficient for our operations because it's less less individuals that have to be scheduled for court and I think it's would reduce the number of
cases and backlog just because I think you'll see a greater um greater incentive to just resolve the matters quickly. And finally uh if uh with respect to heading one, I just wanted to um make the point that one thing that I think
everything uh should be taken into consideration when you look at the municipal board is that many times uh hiring at other enforcement agencies be it the JCPD code enforcement parking uh parking authority more hiring in those agencies will result in the more an
increased issuances issuance of complaints and summones. I think just to keep in mind that creates higher volume for the municipal court because the municipal court ultimately has to receive file schedule and then hear those cases. So, I just wanted to
highlight that that we we strive, you know, I think we're we're doing a very good job of being efficient with case disposition now, but also it's just to be mindful and in the context of the budget situation we're in, if there is expansion and all of the any of the other enforcement agencies, um the the
corresponding um um expansion on our end would would definitely uh benefit um our effort to dispose of all these cases as timely and uh efficiently and fairly as possible. So I I know I've been quite long and there's one more heading on three and and then we can conclude and
I'm looking forward to hearing from all of you. Uh what we're looking to do moving forward, we want to continue to utilize technology to uh expand and improve the uh court user experience. Uh we talked about the Zoom room that we have now. We've looked into potentially
purchasing privacy pods and uh outfitting them throughout the court lobby. Uh I think some of you might have seen them before. they they're in cafes and the like. We looking to use the POA account again uh to to to buy these to purchase these and then add
more capacity in terms of uh allowing for uh allowing to provide people the opportunity to be uh to conduct a virtual appearance in our building. And finally, I'll just conclude uh we're continuing to see an increase in uh case
filings. We are expanding. Uh I think it's logical given the population increases we see in this uh that we've seen in the city. Not to mention the amount of visitors that we have regularly that come into the city. I saw this um which no can get into the hundred of hundreds of thousands uh at
any point and you're seeing an increase in volume in case filings and issuance and currently we're close to 500,000 case filings per year which is as I alluded to second only to Newark. And if from what I've been told how things are
trending, we may potentially usurp them at one point. Uh I don't know if it'll be this year because it's calculated on the judicial calendar which runs July to July. But nonetheless um our goal and what we aspire to do is that if we reach that point or even now with our large case volume we look we're going to look
to uh address it the way we're doing it now efficiently uh strategically a and using innovation anytime we can and uh uh with a mind towards cost reduction uh and to tackle that to tackle that if that is the case. If we are presented with that large well we have a large
volume now but if that were to increase and those trends would continue u that is our goal and how we plan to assess them. So thank you thank you for your time uh happy to hear happy to answer any questions. All right. Thank you so much. Um,
in the interest of time, um, I'm going to ask everyone to just be mindful of the time and, um, I'm not going to specify a specific number of questions that people can ask, but I just ask everyone to be mindful of time. Um, so
if if it's all right, we can go um from that end to this end. >> Thank you, Council Person. Uh good morning judge. >> I hope everything is okay on the the home. >> Thank you. Y >> um question on so just uh for the public
that's watching. So the municipal court is its own department um or is it nested within administration or public safety? >> Okay. Yeah. Um it is not. It is a division. But I'm going to defer to uh the business administrator to answer that question.
>> Yeah. Um the municipal court is a division under the department of administration. >> Thank you and see here. Um continuing my thread yesterday on uh capital versus versus expenses. Um he
talked about the cooling um fix that was needed. I remember we did vote on that recently to approve that expense. Um why would that fall under operating but not oh here she comes. back. >> So, this is a temporary fix, right? Um,
we are, uh, purchasing, we're renting these coolers temporarily. There is a long-term capital project of redoing the HVAC in the municipal court, municipal court, which involves um, uh, capital
funding. So can't remember if it was the previous uh resolution that we put forward or it's going to be a new one but we are reallocating capital funds because of the priorities in the municipal court and that will be presented to the council.
>> Thank you. And last question um with regard to the parking adjudication fund um we're not seeing any offsets in 2026. Um, will we see potentially offsets for operating expenses in 2027?
>> Okay. So, I I think it wasn't an offset and and I apologize, maybe the slide wasn't as clear as it should have been. My my apologies for that. That was um presented as monies that would have been part but were not. When we and I'll let the director speak to this um more with
respect to the line items. We don't include those expenses on our uh operating expense line. We're just noting them that had we not have had the availability of that fund that would have appeared on that line. But let me defer to both the uh the director and the uh the business administrator on
that. >> We annually have uh projected items that we put through the POA account which are for instance the uniform traffic tickets which Judge Eid had referenced earlier in the presentation. Those tickets are utilized by the Jersey City Police
Department as well as the PATS tickets. Those are used by the park and enforcement agencies. So every year we don't include that as part of our operating budget, but we know historically the dollar amount and cost of these tickets and we we itemize that
separately for you this year. So if we did not include that in the POA, we would have had to have had it as part of our operating budget. Um, can I also ask for you to explain that any funds using that account needs
to be approved by the superior court? >> Any any funds in the POA account must be reviewed and approved by the municipal division manager's office. Once they approve that, they submit it to the assignment judge who then further
reviews the account to make sure that it's in parameters with a parking. Um, and then once we get the approval, then we forward and work with purchasing. We send them a copy of the approval from the assignment judge along with our request.
>> May I just a quick follow up on this? >> Um, if you could hold it. Councilman Zuka has an 11. So, um, hopefully we can Yeah, you can go. You can ask the follow-up after, Councilman Zupa. >> Thank you, your honor. Good morning. >> Morning.
>> Uh, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of what's in virtual versus in person at the municipal court, we have the the heavy majority of cases are on Zoom. >> Correct. >> DWI or DUI tri cases are in person, >> correct?
>> Um, are any other cases in person besides those? If I can um qualify that. So every first appearance regardless of the case type is a virtual appearance. You are correct. Once once that first appearance is made, the majority of
criminal and all DWI are then transitioned to inerson appearances in that the second appearance uh and ultimately the trial itself. Anything that will result in a consequence of magnitude or where the uh defendant is facing consequences of magnitude either
a uh jail sentence or a significant fine all have to be in person >> including the pre-trial hearings? >> No, not the pre-trial things. >> So, uh is there any directive from the assignment judge that that would prevent you from having more virtual appearances
in criminal cases? Here's the reason I'm asking is because the municipal court like many of our city buildings were not taken care of uh from the prior administration and we're we're seeing that throughout the city. So, um,
given the expense that the municipal court is to the city and a brand new beautiful public safety building, uh, not too far from from the courthouse, I'm I'm wondering if there's a a way in the next few years to transition away from from that courthouse into something
more I say more efficient, but a different way of conducting the courts. And one way to do that would be more virtual appearances. >> Yeah. Um I think from from the legal I'll with respect to the buildings I'll defer to the um uh the business administrator and director on the facilities issue. Uh in terms of the
buildings itself I I think the um there there really is only one to my knowledge operating order which is a supreme court order which uh which delineates the type of permissible hearings that can be done virtually. I think it also inherent in
that order is discretion where if it language that says to the effect that if it doesn't lend itself to a fair or um a less complicate if it's too complicated to conduct it virtually uh then by all means transition to it to in
person. And I think what you're seeing is not like a a bright line rule, but a case by case um a case- by case basis analysis as to what after that first appearance uh can be virtual and what will be difficult to conduct virtually
and I think it's being made on a case- by case basis. I give you an example recent court case I had um a a particular type of hearing expression hearing was a request for testimony from a police officer. police officer has since been uh since retired from from
service wants to join the prosecutor wants to have him join virtually. Uh so as because he does not reside in this area questions like that even though permissible on its face you're seeing a lot of objection from defense council. They want uh they they will object in
instances like that. So I think it's it's being handled more after you get past that first appearance. It's being held. It's being um determined more on a case- by case basis uh with the exception of these mandated areas when it's a trial proceeding that have to be in in person. >> How how many of the courtrooms on a
given session are being occupied with with these types of cases? >> The the in person or the virtual >> the in person. >> Yeah. Um so I would say regularly there are certain so for the courts that hear more of those uh DWI the criminal
matters they have a standing inerson day uh on their calendar regularly that is I'd say two days a week. So I'd say that of those courtrooms two days are usually reserved for uh for inerson proceedings only. >> Uh and last question is great job on on
the backlog. I know we were set back many years ago. Um, are are your are you and your are your judges seeing enough staffing from the prosecutor's office to to handle the backlog? >> Ideally, I I I think we I I I'd like to see every one of my courts have
prosecutors ideally, but I'm I'm cognizant of the budget situation we're in now, and I I think we're getting by effectively as as is, and we can continue to do so given the restraints. But of course, if if if uh if we did have prosecutors in in in in every
courtroom, uh right now some are not staffed, but that would be beneficial. But again, in light of the circumstances, we're we're effectively the court is the court cases are moving despite that. >> That that's obviously the the most important thing is that the the justice
system is moving fairly and efficiently uh and it's moving as is currently. >> Correct. Thank you. Councilman first, would you like to ask your follow? Okay. Council President. >> Okay. Um, just to piggy back off of the
last one of the the uh last questions of Councilman Zupa in regards to the prosecutor's office, can you or possibly the BA, I guess, speak to the relationship between the prosecutor's office and the municipal court? Because oftentimes when we hear, you know, the
prosecutor, we associate that with the court, but we know that the prosecutor's like budget was included with the police budget. Um, so we can we just talk about how that relationship works between that office and your court. >> Uh, it's a separate branch of
government. We have the only nexus is that they appear in our our courts to u argue on behalf of the state. There is um there is no nexus in terms of u sharing of any resources any all systems have to be separate particularly because
of the uh the separation of powers they represent the state and uh and we are a neutral entity we are hearing cases I'd say the only thing that we have in common is we're housed in the same building aside from that there is a complete separation >> y um so the other thing I'll say is that
the salary and all the budget items are under the Department of Public Safety. So there's a separation in funding um as well. Um I'll also say that um our public defender is also here and that is another separation. They are not part of
the municipal court. Um they are a separate division within the department of administration. >> Thank you. Um I have a question on the line items. So, if we're under salary and wages,
there is a management assistant position and it looks like there's a $13,000 increase over last year for that position, but there is no uh justification or comments. Can we speak to what that uh
jump in salary is for? the the management assistant um serves as the uh assistant court director for the court and um she had filed a a a pay disparity. >> Okay. So like a EPA. Okay.
>> Correct. And that is where the increase came from. >> Okay. Gotcha. >> Then I have another question. There looks like there's a new position for a assistant violations clerk. uh at 56 a little over 56,000 but we
also lost an assistant violations clerk um that was during the layoffs and they were being paid less. So, um I guess I just want someone to speak
to if we still need a a violations clerk, then why did we do the layoff? >> The the employee that was laid off was one of the provisional employees, >> right? And I do not believe there is a
vacancy right now for any other position. There's nothing on the in the 2026 budget for taking position. No, but it looks like we created a new position this year,
right? So, we created a new position uh and then we let someone go that was already doing that position. So, it's kind of a a wash or not really a wash because the new position pays higher than the person we let go,
>> right? because the person that was let go um had their salary increased through contractual union increases and that's the disparity between um the employee that was recently go was here with under one year.
>> Okay. So I guess my concern is do we have enough in your opinion do we have enough assistant violations clerks or violations clerks period? Um because I also see that that was a request from the court but it wasn't granted by the
administration. So where do you all feel we are with violations clerk? Are there enough? Um are do you uh reasonably need more? >> Right now we reallocated staff to coverage um the employee that was
recently let go. >> So you're comfortable with the current staffing level? >> Yes. Okay. I'll just say to be fair um every department is working with less and
trying to do more and so I think this is the case with the municipal court as well. Um I'm sure if we had the uh the budget we would you know increase the staff as requested but we all had to um
reduce our budget. Okay. And then I also see a new position for another violations clerk and it says that it was to replace uh Miss Morales, but there's
no salary um in the 2025 budget. So I guess when did Miss Morales separate from the court? This this position has been since filled. We pulled someone off the call
center unit and had their her job repurposed with an in-house employee. >> Correct. But there's no uh line item for it in the 2025 budget. So, it's a new position in 2026, but we're we're saying we're replacing Miss Morales. But when
did Miss Morales leave the the courts? It seems like she left before last year. She that should not have been included in the budget. >> I'm sorry. Say that again. >> That should not have been included in the budget. There's no uh projected
amount for her position in the calendar year 2026 budget. >> I I think what council president is referring to is the justification. >> Is it a line item or an arc work chart? Um, >> no, it's it's in the uh in the budget
workbook. Um, >> which which which line item is it >> in the salary and wages 101? It's uh Miss Gressi. >> I don't know if I'm saying her last name correct. Griassi
Gracie. >> Violations clerk. It's a um the position didn't exist in 2025. Uh we're funding it in 2026 and we're saying that it's a replacement
for someone who I'm assuming left. Elizabeth Griie was a transfer employee from another city division um and is right now assigned to the call center unit. >> Okay. So, it's just a new position. She's not replacing anyone.
>> No. >> Okay. >> She was a transfer from the parking authority to the court. Okay. Those are Oh, one more question. In line 312. Um, I know chief judge, you spoke about
interpret interpretation services and how that uh costs a lot of money. Um, there's additional court session stipens. Are those the stipens for the uh judges that are doing the additional sessions? I know we just approved some funding because we have to pay the
judges when they have the additional sessions, right? That that's covered under 312. >> It's currently removed. It was for the for the prior uh the prior um year, I believe, but I think it's it's the
compensation is being done differently now. In essence, it's it's coming from a different different line, I understand. >> Right. and any judge covering special sessions um regarding parking matters will be using the POA fund to cover their their payment of those special sessions.
>> You said which fund are they using? >> When the judges cover special sessions, they'll be paid from the parking of the POA account. When they're doing special sessions that are related to parking matters, we're going to be utilizing the POA account to pay them.
Okay, that's all my questions. >> Good morning everyone. Um, judge, if you can speak to um revenue generated specifically from out of town parking violations. Um, I know
in my area I've seen a uptick of out of state plates parking overnight. Um, so if you can speak to guess the the revenue associated with those tickets um
if if it's a challenge collecting revenue for those tickets um or anything of that nature. >> Okay. Good morning. So the court is not a revenue generated uh function function
per se. Its purpose is not to generate revenue. So I I our systems are not created where we can track that kind of data to to to obtain the answer to your question. All our data is uh obtained through the state judiciary because our
systems, all the court dispositions, any any of the court related um operations that we have are all logged and processed in uh through the state systems, the New Jersey state judiciary systems. They do not track for that kind of data because again they don't that's
not our our our function is not to generate revenue. it's to dispense the cases disposition and they look at it from a perspective of more case clearance disposition timely hearing of cases and the like. So I don't have that that information just because the way
our we are organized we don't account for for for that for that that information. >> That is interesting. All right. So a better question is is there is there any complications associated with collecting
revenue from that demographic of people who are issued tickets um out of state places any is there any complications in trying to connect that revenue?
>> So maybe I can jump in here. Um I I think the judge is trying to say that it's hard to answer that question without having the data to analyze if we are collecting from that population.
Right? And the reason why the data is hard to um to to analyze is because the system where this is being tracked is very very old and it's also hard to integrate that data with our city
revenue data, right? The data on on what we're collecting. Um so we've started discussions about how to connect these very old databases and pull the data so we can try to answer some of these questions. But right now we just don't
have the information to be able to dissect the data in that way. >> So putting putting the data aside right um you guys have enough experience because you see this stuff in real time.
So from that perspective, um do you perceive or is there do you perceive or is there a a a burden to collect from that pool of um from
that pool of violations? >> So Councilman, if I can answer the question, not with respect to revenue because but in terms of enforcement. >> Yeah. Well, that I think I can provide an answer to. >> It is challenging when well again depending on the universe of summones. I
think you're referring to motor vehicle and parking offenses, correct? Uh >> not necessarily really motor vehicle infractions, but more more parking. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's that I can answer that from an enforcement perspective. Here's the challenge with that. The consequence currently for
failure to pay a parking violation or appearing for to answer on it, defend yourself, or have it adjudicated is after a period of time, a driver's license is suspended. The challenge with the out ofstate vehicles is that unless that state has reciprocity with New
Jersey, and it varies depending on state, because that's just pure federalism. every every state can uh craft their own laws and are uh oversee all the uh inherent um rights of statehood or or functions of statehood meaning issuance of driver's license
being one of them unless there's reciprocity with the other states and some there some states there are some some aren't then there's no recourse if that person decides to never come to court uh and that that's from an enforcement perspective that's the
challenge we Okay, I see. So, quick question, a followup question before I um allow my other colleague jump in. Um so, what if anything happens, let's say, you
know, the two states are not really in unison or whatever, but if that person comes back and like and is pulled over, do that stuff pop up that they owe New Jersey and stuff like that? >> That is a good question. Um, it's more of a JCPD law enforcement uh question. I
I if I can get back to you and your office on that, I I don't have the answer because it's more of an enforcement uh issue. I don't know. Uh but I I'm more than happy to uh advise your office when we can we can find an answer to that for you. >> All right. Thank you. >> Sure.
>> Morning. Thank you for the presentation, for making time to be here. Um, I would have completely understood if you requested to reschedu this given family circumstances, but glad to hear that. It sounds like everyone's doing okay. Um,
so just one note, um, stuck in my craw is the kind of accounting question that I've brought up at a couple sessions now. Um, and it's coming up again with the POA. Uh, hate to keep harping on this, but the POA fund. um it across the
different departments budget sheets, it seems like there's different accounting practices for the use of these different funds and the grant offsets. And so sometimes we see expenses spelled out in the budget sheet itself and then we see
this amount is offset by a grant or this amount was moved to a capital fund. We don't see these expenses here. So I I just am am trying to understand better where these different accounting practices come from um and how we can
get them very consistent and very clear cuz intuitively as a non-expert in accounting it makes sense to show every expense and then show the different sources of funding for those different expenses. Um and it can be very clear
this is the total cost of XYZ division or department and then this is how much we need to actually allocate for it through tax dollars as opposed to these other sources. But it sounds like you have >> I'm prepared to answer this question. Um all of these budget workbooks are
prepared by the finance department. So I know we're working on another session. That's a great question for the finance department to answer. Um what I can say about the municipal court is the expenses that um the judge and Wendy
explained are are not offsets. They are just think of it as a separate account. There's nothing represented in this budget workbook that is offset by the POA. The POA has separate expenses that
is not represented in this workbook. So that's why it's does not show as an offset. Okay, I I appreciate that. Um, and I'll just I'll I'll formulate a question as to why those expenses being expenses of the court should be or shouldn't be separate, but I'll
formulate that question to finance. I I appreciate it. Um, okay. And then, uh, digging into um, I just want to yeah commend the the campaign to reduce the court backlog. I
know this is this is major and it's one of the key problems for our city where we have uh residents very frustrated by the failure of you know true enforcement and collecting revenues on or yeah collecting just the fines um that are
owed through numerous code violations. Um, I I believe uh I don't want to get too too off topic of the budget, but because this is all all related, I do want to ask um if there's any progress on uh
being able to to change um the the requirement of I I I'm forgetting my legal ease this morning, but the the burden of proof necessary to enforce some of these uh kind of code violations. um so that it would be much
easier to collect on all the fines. If you could speak to any progress we're making that or what kinds of um things that we could do as council to move on that. Maybe this is more of a law department question so I don't want to get um too off topic. >> Uh yes, I I've had those those
discussions with the corporation council and you're correct. It's more within the her purview. Um but I think if I could just give a basic answer, I think that needs to change by way of stats state statute. I'm not completely correct. I think and the reason I I'm relying on
that is municipal courts are statutory courts. They're created specifically by a New Jersey state statute which is pretty clear as to their jurisdiction and everything that um and the operation in full. without the benefit again this is really something that the um the the uh the
corporation council and the law department have been pursuing uh and without the benefit of the full research I would think that changing that is something that h would have to be done via legislation and um and not cannot be done at the municipal level at least on
our end so that that's that's what I think but I >> understood >> thank you I'll be following up with council and our our state assembly members as well about this um just a bit more on the violations. Clerk, could you just describe some of the work because it looks like um under new hires that
are not being budgeted for um and then one vacancy that's not being budgeted for, we have a couple violations clerks uh here. So, just what what is the kind of work that we would hope that they get to to help out with if we did have the money?
>> So, violations clerk is a very broad title and it's used within several units of the court. They can enter disposition, schedule cases, um work in the call center, assist on the payment window, accept payments, um answer
emails, uh it's a multiacet title within the court that's basically acceptable by the judiciary to use both on the bench and at the payment window. >> Thank you. And then we we also have um
two interpreters uh as new hires that are not being budgeted for yet. Um would would these help offset the cost of the language interpretation services that were uh paying for through the um line
item 312, the contracted out services. So the I think to to a certain extent the way we looked at those positions and I I don't really have an an answer with strong data to support it but this is
more of just the experience from sitting in court uh regularly. It seems that there are pre two uh predominant languages that if you have an in in-house interpreter for uh specifically Spanish, which we do have an in-house Spanish interpreter and Arabic that
seems those it just seems that there's a large universe of interpreters for those two particular languages. I can't say uh based on any data or the like that those adding those two positions would would significantly reduce the interpreter budget that we used to contract for the
for for those uh for anything but the in-house Spanish interpreter. But again, those line items have come during pre prior budget years. So I'm very, you know, again, I think I want to preface everything today with we understand the budget climate. understand the
expectation and that maybe in a great perfect perfect circumstances we would have benefited greatly from that but if if if that's not a reality now then we we'll make do and we'll continue to figure out what what needs to be done uh in that area but I will just reiterate it is a significant financial challenge
for us because it's uh we we seem to find that our mandated expenses are what are really driving our our costs and that's uh so that's that's that's the best way can answer that. Those have been line items for several budget cycles now. Um, of course, something
we'd like, but again, we're we're cognizant of this of the of the situation we're in. Now, >> I'm sure it's a very complicated costbenefit analysis of how much do we contract out to meet the case load that we have versus bring inhouse to help deal with the backlog without having to
pay some extra for Yeah. contracting out, but then there are benefits. So I I I understand it's a really complicated analysis. So appreciate you making do with um with what you have and and doing your best to clear this backlog. Um I I
want to move briefly to the public defenders office. Thank you also for Oh, >> sorry. Uh we are going to say public defender next. So yeah, >> sounds good. Then I will not move to the public defenders office. I will defer to my colleague. >> Okay.
Um, just trying to just trying to get Judge E out of here. Um, thank you so much for being here this morning. Um, so my question is actually kind of a piggyback to Councilman Efros's question. The interpretation services,
we have some in-house, but the bulk of it is contracted out. Um, you c you requested 180,000 in professional services and were given a h 100,000 in professional services in the draft budget. Do you anticipate being unable
to meet your mandatory requirement of providing interpretation services? um with only a h 100,000 um and and would it be more cost- effective to fund one of the interpreter positions in house if we are reducing
the professional services line item 312 from 180,000 to 100,000 >> again I I I think it potentially but I I hesitate without the data similar to the prior question without the strong data support it. I I don't I I I don't want
to answer um equivocally. I we we by way of observation feel that way just from the lived experience of being in the court and and when we have cases in front of us, what what what are the predominant languages that require that
uh where we see certain languages require interpreters um that are more numerous than other types of languages. But again, I don't I don't I don't want to equivocally say that because we we haven't done any dive into the actual numbers. Uh with respect to that, >> it would certainly help if we did have
an additional in-house Spanish interpreter at the court. Um we have one and if he's out on vacation or sick, we do have to use the so services of uh the interpreting agency or the language line um while court is in session.
>> Okay. Thank you so much. Um, for in line item 101, salary and wages, I see there are six deputy court administrators, and their salaries range from 48,000 to 74,000. Um, that's a pretty wide range. What is the difference in these roles, these six
deputy court administrators, because I understand civil service title doesn't always correspond to the duties that they're performing. And and why is the salary range so large? Is that just >> the salary range is large? the the numbers of service. There's a broad range of years of service between the
employees. >> Okay. So, it's it's simply due to seniority. >> Correct. We have some employees that are there a year and we have some employees that are making their going into their 42nd year >> um this year to give you a range of how long employees have worked in the court. >> Okay. So, it's not because some of them
are performing more more duties beyond their job description. Okay. >> Um great. Thank you. And then my last question was um I I see you requested 120k in overtime and
received 90k. I actually sorry this is my second to last question. Um but it's so so overtime is high because you have a number of unfunded positions. Is that accurate to say?
>> Overtime is also high because we have to make sure that all of the courts are covered when there's when they're in session. So if we have a core clerk, a court administrator that calls out during the evening shift, we have to have staff from the day shift to make sure that all of the courts are covered.
>> Okay. Thank you. Uh if I may, Councilwoman, if I could just follow up on that, that speaks to another one of the mandates uh that I speak to um that drive costs, but judiciary uh policy requires that every court session be conducted. and we we regularly
experience challenges and as both judges and staff if there's a call out there's an emergency the the the court calendar has to proceed. Uh so in light of that we have we are we are compelled to uh have judges and staff double up or cover
cover addition these additional uh settings and I'm excuse me additional uh um sessions and as a director um indicated that's what that that's what we use the overtime for to um with respect to the staff. >> Okay. Thank you. And and do you
anticipate going over that 90,000 or you think that is a reasonable amount? I'm going to defer to the director on this because she has more uh there more employees under uh under her supervision that that she regularly assigns overtime to coverage
>> for the for the overtime line. Um we if if we could certainly have additional funding in that area that would help with the operations. We're not increasing staff and yet we still have the judicial obligation to make sure everything is covered.
you. >> You're welcome. >> Um, and my last question, um, judge, you mentioned earlier about, um, amending the payment schedule to make certain violations payable without a court appearance, similar to how um, if you
get a parking ticket, you don't you can come to court if you want to argue it, but, you don't need to, and most people just pay them online. Um, is that something you could do today or is that something you need council's help to pass an ordinance with? >> It would take two uh two approvals. I
would have to sign uh the if the process works, the prosecutors by way of consulting um the the executive branch or whoever their uh whoever in their department align requires um consultation with to decide. I think it's in this instance the municipal
prosecutor uh will review and and decide what they think. He'll present it to uh to me for uh to execute and sign off on and then we in turn then present it to the assignment judge and if uh he consents uh then it can be enacted that
way. So it doesn't it wouldn't require um a very long process. >> Okay. >> Provided that there's approvals from the visage uh level as well. >> Okay. Great. Thank you, Councilwoman Singh. >> Thank you. Good morning, Jami. Good morning.
>> Good morning. How are you? >> Thank you for the great presentation. >> Uh my questions are mostly um related to line item 312. Uh would you be able to um talk more
about it? Just the breakdown overall? Line 312 is our professional service line. We contract with an interpreting agency annually as well as provide um language line on an as needed basis in
the courtroom. So interpreters are scheduled in advance through the agency and requested at the judge while they're on the bench. And it's a judiciary requirement that we have to have interpreters um for every case that's needed. So we
have to ensure proper funding in this area. Thank you. Um, how much are we spending on overtime sessions and how much on code interpreters? I think it says
just the breakdown on this. We can provide you a month-to-month uh breakdown. I can email you a copy of the annual uh and monthly expenses. >> Okay. And um what does the municipal
court use overtime wages for? Just to um just to be clear, are these wages distinct from overtime pay for judges? the the over. So the judges when they receive additional funds, they're receiving additional funds for special
sessions that are added in addition to their regular poor calendar. For when the staff is paid overtime, it's usually to cover a session. Um so say a court clerk calls out courtroom 5 at the 4 pm
session, we need to recruit someone from the dayshift to stay for the evening court calendar or vice versa. If someone calls out at 9:00 a.m., we recruit someone from the night shift to come in days to cover that session. >> So just on so the line item 103 overtime
wages we are talking about. So it was 90,000 uh in 2025 but it has changed in you requested little more than 2025. What has changed?
to ensure with the staff at the time with the staff shortages before the employees were repurposed. We wanted to make sure that there is ample funding and then also um when working on special projects as judge Eid referenced the reduction and backline project we are
making sure that there's funding in that area when an employee does an additional task works overtime on a separate project to make sure that there's funding to compensate them for that. just for public to know I mean if uh
judge Remy you can talk about it we have 50,000 case backlog right um so what >> with respect just to just with respect to the ordinance violists >> um are we short on judges to handle our
case load and >> no I don't think it's we're we're at capacity in fact I don't At the current time, uh we wouldn't I don't I don't know where we wouldn't have enough courtrooms to place an additional drudge at this point in time. Uh there was discussions prior about utilizing other
city uh city properties to conduct court. Uh there were challenges there because as per our judiciary oversight, every courtroom has to be outfitted and constructed with according to a spec. Um and it didn't lend itself to conducting
court in other venues. So I I think currently now we we're we're getting a we're getting a lot of efficiency out of the 12 we have now. Uh I don't I in I never say no to more resources but of course I don't think it again in
light of where we are now. I don't think number the challenges being one where would that judge sit in terms of uh because again another mandate from judiciary is that all court proceedings even the virtual ones be conducted from the bench and in court. So, I don't know where I would house or place that person
u to work at this point in time, but um I think if it's a question about efficiency, I think the 12 we have now are doing it's a high case dis um disposal number. So, I think we're staffed appropriately. But I I understand that's where that discussion is coming for. There were discussions
prior about potentially using other city properties and adding uh adding an additional judge This is it for me. Thank you. So, >> thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Um to the municipal court. Um I want to thank you
for taking time this morning and and also uh you are free to leave now. I know you have other matters to attend to today. Um >> thank you. I want to thank everyone on the council. Thank you. >> Me. Thank you so much. Um, I'd like to
move to the P public defender next. Um, do you do you have a presentation or would you like to spend a minute or two describing your your division? >> I would, but before I do that, and good morning members of the council, resident. Uh, Andrew Abrams, I'm your city's public defender. I've been your
city's public defender for uh just a shade under 25 years um uninterrupted, which I always say I appreciate. Before the judge and the court director leave, I did want to do a little public service announcement on
behalf of the court. I'm not affiliated other than I'm there almost every day of my life. But I can tell you this, as a private practitioner, I also go to every municipal court in the state. Everyone, the smallest of the small and the other
ones that vibe with us for volume of cases. And there is no municipal court in the state of New Jersey that is more diverse or more better equipped to handle the needs of a diverse community than the Jersey City Municipal Court.
There is no other municipal court in the state that has courtrooms specifically dedicated to domestic violence. There are many courts that still exist in this state, embarrassingly that if a victim comes in and says, "I just want to dismiss," the case gets dismissed.
Nobody cares. Nobody looks. And those are recidivist matters that come back and the problems are very rarely addressed. Not in Jersey City. People are made to participate in programs. The vast majority are not seen again. So we
are solving the problem, not just putting band-aids on a broken bone. The same is true for um matters that involve, excuse me, DWI's mental health court. Our municipal court is second to
none. I do work in all of the superior courts in the state. Private practice, recovery courts are enormously successful in trying to help people get out of their own way because of addiction. Our mental or andor co-occurring disorders. Our mental
health court is better staffed and better run than any municipal court. I would put it against any court in the state of New Jersey. We deal with people who have severe mental illness. I just got a email yesterday, a death threat
that I would share with you, but I don't even want to put it on the record from a gentleman whose case we had uh pursued through competency hearings had dismissed because it was in the interest of justice. He went unheard for about three months. Now I must be back on his
radar screen. And so the the the death threats that I got yesterday are alarming, but they're par for the course because we recognize we roll up our sleeves. We do the hard work. We are servicing the community. And when I say we, I mean this team of judges, our
court director, uh, every group that's in the building. It may not be the best building. I can tell you when the business administrator came to visit me, there was black soot all over my desk. It looked like I hadn't cleaned it in a couple days. And I said to her, "Be careful because that's coming out of my
vent." And that's just the way it is. So each day we clean off the desk and we start over. It's the same problem. Okay. My point being that well, you look at the line items and the budget and the costs and the interpreters. Why do we need so many interpreters? You go to a
particular, you go to Belleville, whether it's a Polish community or uh Ridgewood or you everybody has their groupings of people. There is no more diverse community than Jersey City. So, we used to have what we called um exotic interpreter day where you'd come in and
it was like the Tower of Babel. You would have 20 different court uh interpreters and languages that needed to be addressed so that people's rights were protected and they understood the process. So when I tell you that they are firing on all cylinders and that
they are something to be proud of you our current budget issue aside which dominates the headlines and is very difficult and the job you're doing is unbelievable but the court functions and it continues to function because every day there's crime every day there are problems and
every day those people's first and only contact usually is through our courts and I am proud to be part of that court because of the unbelievable work we're doing in helping the community. I just wanted that said while they were here, not so that I get a better deal by judge aid later in a court case or anything
else. But it it is important uh because unless you're there every day and you see and unless you have the proper perspective where you can compare to a large inner city like Newark, okay, or Camden or the smallest municipal courts like here in in Hudson County,
Guttenberg, we are the beacon on the hill. And sometimes you have to change the light bulb within the beacon. I understand that there's cost associated. But if we are doing our job right, there's always going to be people complain, you're going to get a death threat every now and then, but the vast
majority feel heard and their cases are getting resolved. I just wanted to address that in terms of the court. So, thank you without using up all my time for them. Uh, >> that's that's your time. >> That's your touch.
>> Touche. Now they can go and I can really talk about them. Okay. I believe I was supposed to be here on Monday because I'm in that select group that's part of the business administration, but I'm also not part of the municipal court, which again seems weird. And I'm happy to answer
questions. Um, the reason I wasn't here Monday, and I appreciate the understanding, and I think it's also worth mentioning, the Hudson County community lost not one but two giants of defense council in the last 7 days. Uh,
Samuel Duca, who was a mentor to many, best friend to my father, um, passed away on Friday. He represented the best of what defense attorneys are in this city, in this
county, and in this state. Uh, three days later, we lost Peter Willis. So, the legal community is um in mourning. I'm getting texts today. I still can't believe Sam is gone. Monday, I was at Mr. Duca's funeral. Um, but as all
private attorneys are not necessarily public defenders, all public defenders are private attorneys. And uh, the lessons we learned from these two men in how to service the community, to take care of our clients, to make them feel heard, to make sure that we aren't just trying to make money, but to deal with
every aspect and consequence of their case and what they're facing. A lot of us learned from them. So I just wanted to acknowledge uh that and to also thank you for letting me come today instead of Monday. While I am lastly in the field
of thank yous, I did want to acknowledge that as your public defender for 25 years, I have worked under a multitude of different business administrators and administrations. This is the first business administrator who came to see me at the courthouse
ever. This is the first business made administrator who has answered every phone call I've made and made me feel heard. We still have our problems and I'll address them. Um, but it's the first time I felt that the business
administrator has been working in connection with us and communicating with us and if we're going to succeed, we desperately need that. I should as well say um because it's important and
worthy. Uh Peter Horton um has been a godsend as well in regard to our office. I can speak to you personally and I'm going to explain how we work. My office, my public defenders are all vendors. They're all private attorneys who get
paid per session. I'm going to address that in a minute. Um, we've had a devil of a time getting our public defenders paid this year. I brought that up to you, but I wanted to make sure that you understand and how we're trying to go forward and change that from here on out because we were once 18 strong. We're
down to nine or 10. We'll be bringing a resolution before you shortly because I found someone who I think is an excellent attorney. Um, she's bilingual, services a different element of the community. Uh, and I'd like to add her to our list. It will not add to our budget. It's like one pizza. We just cut
up more slices. Okay. Um, but the the beginning to this year was tough and in particular tough for us and very particularly tough for me because we have two different ways of being compensated for what we do in the public defender's office. The public defender
gets paid per session $275 per session. A session is defined as 9 to 12 morning session or 1 to 4 afternoon or it may be an evening session 4 to 8. Okay. Our $275
pay is the lowest in the county that I know of. Many are billing at $350, $400. Our people keep coming for $275. My pay as the chief public defender is $14,000 a year. I want to repeat that
for the um bonus of getting calls from Judge Aid in the middle of the night and every other judge in this city and answering the call every time in government to court whenever they need me. Whenever whether I'm scheduled or not as the chief, they pay me $14,000 a
year. It's $1,100 a month. The chief public defender is a position established by statute for courts that have more than three public defenders. Again, we've had as many as 18. We have 10 now, including me. So, I get this
special uh $14,000 allotted to me, which again, as I have joked in the past, would actually qualify me for the public defender. Um, but I don't do it to get rich. I do it because the community needs it. And I love and I'm proud of
the fact that for 25 years, city council has brought me back each and every year recognizing that I am fully committed to helping any and every person that comes before or or needs our help. Um but to that extent this year I didn't get paid
in January, February, March, April, May and when we hit June I think I was the only employee in the city I say employee vendor/mp employee who hadn't received a penny for my services for 6 months. That can't happen. Many of my public
defenders were not paid January through May, but they kept coming with the promise that eventually monies would be paid out of the budget that we had established and that the money would be there. And in the majority of courts and really the
majority of workforce after 3, four, five months, a lot of people would think twice about whether they wanted to come back. My people keep coming and they have kept coming. And when the money was finally freed up after resolution and and finance got around to paying us, I
made sure they got paid first. But my chief public defender fee went neglected. I had to reach out to Miss Troy. I said, "It's 6 months. I'm done coming in." After 25 years, I just I can't be this disrespected. Miss Troy got on it. She got to Mr.
Horton. Emails went back and forth. people in finance recognized they had dropped the ball or didn't approve things, wanted to put it back before all of you, even though things had been approved. And I finally got my payment as chief, a whopping $5,000 to cover the
first 6 months about 3 weeks ago. My point is, without being a complainer, I defy you to find an employee of the city who has worked from January through June without payment at all simply
because I feel loyal to the cause. And I know it can't be done if I'm not here. I don't have a big ego. I'm not the best attorney that ever existed. But I am fully dedicated to this community. I was born here and I've been doing it for 25 years. And without me, I do not think
the office would function the same. So again, I thank you for having trust in me to do the job that I do. I would like to see things done better in the future because people uh many of them live paycheck to paycheck and when they're not getting paid. Councilman Efos, I
think you said at the last meeting, thank you for doing God's work. And I jokingly joked with Councilman Zupa, you know, the church does God's work, but they still take donations on Sundays. It gets hard to motivate your workforce to continue to come back when they're not
getting paid. Having said this and turning to the budget, I wanted to make sure you all understood because that really comes to that line. I I don't know that I have a PowerPoint presentation. I know we submitted a budget. Probably we don't because of this. My office consists of three staff.
That's it. And me. I am not there every day, though I try to be, but it's three staff. It's a small department within the workings of the courthouse. So there are three employees and their budgets are set out and those are the same as they always are. The only line that
changes really is in the uh it's described as OE uh which is a a number that has been consistent for 3 years running 2025 2627 expected $468,500.
And we get to that number simply by projection. What we try to do is say, look, I need three public defenders every day in the courthouse, whether they're virtual or they are in person. Many days, council members, we need
more, but we know that we need at least three. One is handling the prisoners devoted to that. They must be moved every day. One is handling domestic violence or mental health court. one is handling the DWIS or general criminal matters
or traffic tickets. Conservatively, three public defenders per day times two sessions per day, morning and afternoon. We multiply it by 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, gives us a total of 16, excuse me, 1560 sessions
that we cover per year. You add to that night court, which is once a week. Once a week we have two public defenders uh available. So that's another 96 sessions that we cover during the year for a
total of 16 me find it. I'm sorry. A total of 1656 sessions that we project that we're going to need to cover. Um I now need to start over so I can thank all those people for Councilman Zupo so we can
hear all the nice things I said. >> Chief, we have about 15 minutes left. So, let's get into question. I'm sorry, council person. The bottom line is >> Thank you. >> The bottom line is uh uh that number you'll see we didn't get there in 2025. We were short of that number. We didn't
get there in 2026. Again, we were short of that number. It was a they're telling me it was a $350,000 number. So, how are we budgeting 468,000? That is what it's going to take to run the public defender's office. In years past, court sessions were cancelled. And when
court sessions get cancelled, we cancel our public defender. People who have prepared or or engaged to take on a case and all of a sudden they're told don't come. Those core met court sessions got cancelceled for a variety of reasons. That's court issues and or we were under
a an initiative to be as conservative as possible. If I build for every case that I came to, I I I could have retired by now. Many of the things I do, I do as a friend of the court and people tease all the time, why don't you bill for it? You're here as a public defender. Um, a
lot of my people function the same way. However, over time, the case load has expanded exponentially given the fact, and I tie this largely into a a very good initiative, but one that was unfortunately somewhat flawed. In
2019, I discussed with the um uh business administrator's office and city council the concept of abolishing public defender fees entirely for our courts. Every other court in the state charges up to $200. Some charge more. Okay. We
realized way back we were not a revenue collecting agency. when we were truly serving only the indigen of the community, we would collect maybe 13, 15, $20,000 a year. So, we decided that it would be a really good idea to honor the Constitution, which doesn't say you
get a free attorney for $200, but if you're indigent, you get counsel. What has happened, as much as we try to foresee how things will go, is that everybody who comes into our court is given the same proposition. Would you
like to hire an attorney? Would you like to represent yourself? Or would you like a free attorney? The vast majority choose choice C. They are not always indigent. In far too many cases, they are not indigent by the
criteria set forth in the statutes. Yet, they fill out the application, the judges look them over, they give only limited information. I'm not working right now, even though we often discover they are. and those people are given a public defender. As a result, our case
load has exploded. The amount of cases, the amount of people that we service, and what I hear most from people in the community is, it's not that I'm indigent. I just don't really have the money for an attorney. That's hurt private practice in this city, but it's also hurt the concept of a public
defender's office. And this was probably the one flaw in our thinking. We want to help everybody, but at the end of the day, we can't. And we can't do it if our sessions are going to wind up being cut because the projection for this year has us at $350,000,
I believe. If that's the case, it's going to take our covered sessions down by $435 or 3 months without a public defender. >> Okay. So, let me use that as a segue because council has to ask you questions and we have about 10 minutes left.
>> I'll speak faster. So, Please be succinct in your answers. Thank you. Um, we'll go from this end to this end this time. >> Thank you for being here. >> Okay. Can you hear me? >> Of course. >> Right. Thank you for being here. Uh, my
question is what you are were actually talking about um line item number 312. So just to be clear, um it is it reflects the the pay for public defenders, right?
>> Yes, it affects the 275 per session times the number of sessions I discussed. >> Okay. And um so can you please uh now I see that uh the request amount is $46500,000
and draft 350. So can you please share that why it's not what requested? Are we anticipating lower case load this year?
>> Quite the opposite. I am anticipating uh continued growth in the number of people applying for and being appointed a public defender. I am more confident of that number given the 15% uh the the tax hike that's going to go on. More people are going to come to
court now and say I don't have money for an attorney. And every judge would rather have an attorney involved in a case. So they're going to grant public defenders for people not indigent but people who are uh pressed uh or or or hard up for for for money to put towards
a legal defense. So there is no question that our number of cases will rise again exponentially and because we're staffed fully now in terms of court personnel the number of court sessions are not going to be cancelled. These are that number that I project I believe is an
honest number. So what? >> Oh, I'm sorry. Not the 350. The $468 I believe was an honest number. Why it's represented as $350,000 in this budget, I'm not entirely sure. I think it was an idea that because we had done it for 350
last year before because 2025 we were able to do it for a little less. Maybe we could tighten our belts a little more and do it the same. I'm telling you that we'll go forward with this budget, but if we get to a point, we've already exhausted 200,000 of paid monies this
year and we're halfway through the year. We're going to hit our number this year and that's going to exceed 350. >> What's your plan? My plan is to beg you to recognize that we are an essential part of the court process and although
it was represented here 350 I called the business administrator last night when I saw that number and I said that's not going to uh to cut it. Um we're going to hit a point here where we're not going to be able to provide free representation to everyone and that's
going to be a problem. There are ways to address it if we can't get more than the 350. Some are more difficult to perceive than others. For one um possibility is we can take the public defender out of night court and reallocate the $26,000
we use for night court to day court. The truth is night court doesn't do a lot of heavy criminal cases. We set it up so that people who are working would have an alternative to come at night. But by definition, if you're working, you probably don't uh you don't um you
shouldn't be having a public defender appointed in the first place. So, anybody who comes to court at night can certainly move to have their cases heard at 9:00 or 1:00 and we can divert that 26,000 back into our budget so that we can continue to survive and and service
the community. The other thing that I really don't want to see happen, but I put it to city council because it's responsible and necessary to discuss is I was the major proponent of doing away with public defender fees in 2019. It's one of my proudest
accomplishments. There's still no municipality that does it. The states have now adopted it at the at the county level. But given the fact that I am seeing how many people are applying for because they would just rather have free
representation than they need the representation. There is income out there that is not being recovered if we were to do away with the statute. And again, it's a last resort, but I'm I'm being honest with you. Two
new cases a day times the public defender fee of $200 for people can afford to pay it would result in $14,000 worth of additional income that could be put back into the public defender to service the community. I'm not suggesting we bill everyone. These
things are done on a sliding scale and the judges review it and say I think $50 is enough for you. I think a hundred I'm go ahead. >> I'm sorry to interrupt. I very passionate. Um um I I'll just say that
you know we were trying to cut budgets in every division, every department. It is very very challenging to do that as as you hear. Um I am committed to working with the public defender to find creative ways to make up for the
difference. But again, I think we're presenting um the realities of the the city's budget and we're looking forward to hearing feedback from the council in terms of what what is realistic here. Um
how can we reallocate funding perhaps from other places to fund things that are priority um to you all. So I I don't mean to cut you off, but I I just wanted to make that point. >> Thank you. Uh go ahead. >> Thank you mai. U so you were talking
about night codesing on night codes. >> Is it not busy or if you do that how are we I I just want to understand like >> night court runs with three or four judges Monday through Thursday. This is
a court question. We provide a public defender Tuesday nights. Majority cases are not night court for public defender. They're not doing criminal. They don't need the resources of the court that are open during the daytime. Traffic matters, but if the consequence matters a consequence, they need a public
defender. Okay. So, my review of this is we're spending $26,000 to give to public defenders every Tuesday night. Use that money instead and try to speak to the court and say, "Guys, we need to not have public defenders for night court.
We probably we did it to accommodate the public. we can still accommodate giving them their choice of coming at 9:00 or 1:00. And that's one way to take some of that money and put it back in to make sure we have enough coverage during the day and throughout the calendar year. I
have not discussed that with Judge Aid yet, but this is one of those in the shower this morning, you know, brilliant ideas. >> Thank you so much. And I feel when you know hopefully this budget issue will be
resolved soon. Um I mean you know things will get better for sure. I feel that this is something we should again have night codes because for people who are working right this is something to think about. So I really thank you for your time.
>> Certainly. Thank you. >> Thank you. This question is for um business administrator Troy um in column G. So cell G5 um on the spreadsheet for the public defender um
the actual amount that would have been determined by the formula was overridden and an amount that was about $50,000 less was put in that it doesn't make a difference in the overall budget because this is the department request. Can I ask why why that was done?
>> Sorry. Can you repeat G5? >> Yeah, >> I'm there. >> What is the question? >> Um, why is it not a formula? Why was the formula overridden? >> Um, that because the numbers don't add up.
>> G5. Um, again, I uh can follow up with you on this one. The finance department prepares all of these workbooks, so I do not know the answer >> as to why that is the case. >> Thank you.
>> Uh, Councilman Efross, >> my questions were answered, but thank you for the service you provide at Jersey City. >> Yes, >> person. Really? >> I'm good. my questions were answered. I'm good. >> Mr. Mr. Good to see you. Sorry I missed
the majority of your presentation, but you and I have spoken many times. So, >> always a pleasure and thank you for being so available. >> Of course. Um, first thing, did did your office resolve its issue with or not your issue, but the the issue with with payment? >> I addressed that right before you walked in. Took six months, but it was done
>> right. Um, and then so would you be willing to speak with Judge Aid and the prosecutor's office and and obviously the administration about moving eliminating the Tuesday night DWI or criminal cases, putting them on on during the day? >> Yes, understand there are no criminal
cases at night, only traffic. I will leave here and go to his office. I will do anything that helps make the court function better. I would be pleased and thrilled to do that. Thank you. Thanks for your service to the city.
>> Thank you. >> No questions for me. Thank you. >> Sorry everybody anticipated all my or I anticipate all your questions. I did want to share one thing with you since I didn't have a presentation in my last minute that I have completed a trial last week for an elderly woman here in
Jersey City. No prior history whatsoever. She had been attacked but was accused of attacking the young people who were the victims. Five days of trial as a public defender. Uh she felt that no one heard her and nobody
understood her and um I sat with her for 5 days and committed to that trial. At the end of the trial, she was found not guilty and she was sobbing in the hallway and I said, "You won. You've been vindicated." And she handed me
this. I reached for my wallet. That's not why we're public defenders. It's something I carry in my wallet now. And while I don't have a presentation um to put on the screen, this is a penny that she gave me. Cut out in the penny is the shape of an angel. Okay. She said, "I've
carried this for 45 years. You were my angel today. The public defender service gave me respect, made me feel heard, and for what I went through was awful. But thank you for being there. This I carry with me now and I will every day that
you continue to reappoint me as your public defender because this is why we do what we do to be the angels to the members of the community when they feel like all other hope has been lost. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Um motion to adjourn.
>> Secure. So before we do the motion to adjourn at 11:59, I just want to mark Council Person Gilmore present at 11:11. >> 11:11. >> Yeah, you weren't here at uh 10:20 cuz I was still here. I was still in the room.
Anyway, motion to adjourn at at 11:59 a.m. was made by Council Person Little, seconded by the late arrival of Council Person Gilmore. on the motion to adjourn at 11:59 a.m. All council members present by
acclamation, please say I. I.