##VIDEO ID:lc_JlNLR3E0## no does have a case number on it cool all right take your time Robert if you want to call the meeting to order yes I'll Now call to order this regular meeting of the Jersey City Historic preservation commission it is Monday October 21st 2024 6:38 p.m. please be advised that in accordance with the open public meetings act the notice of the time date in place of this regularly scheduled meeting of the Jersey City Historic preservation commission was sent to the Jersey Journal Jersey City Reporter and Ellis balito on Thursday October 17th same notice was provided to the city clerk for posting on the bulletin board outside of the city clerk's office in City Hall and on the Jersey City website I have proof of this notice in evidence if we could mark it as B1 thank you we'll move to a roll call attendance commissioner uzo present commissioner samp here commissioner Gunther here commissioner song Here commissioner Cronin here commissioner GGA is absent commissioner blazak is absent Vice chair gucciardo here and chairman Gordon presid right there are seven members of the Commission in attendance tonight five affirmative votes are needed for a certificate of appropriateness next item down is the approval of minutes from the September 16th 2024 meeting anyone have any questions Corrections anything like that motion to approve second okay we have commissioner gucciardo and then commissioner uzo all in favor hi hi hi all right copies of correspondents and application materials tonight are linked on tonight's agenda um if you would like to access those links easiest way is scanning this guy um if not you can go to the Tyler portal and input the case number all right announcements so we have a couple of announcements um the first is that case 8 a h-23 0183 has requested to carry to the next HPC meeting and that will be on November 18th so that case will be heard on November 18th um on in the demolition review section so item 11 um there are announcements actually for all four of these cases first is for 11a the Morris canal and Central Railroad that application is being heard tonight but I just want to note uh a correction on the agenda the case number is listed as b-231 1338 it's actually B-24 uh- 1338 and then for carry demolition cases um 11 ba um is carrying to the November 18th meeting 11bc is carry also carrying to the November 18th meeting and 11bb um 169-179 Palisade AB has elected to withdraw their application so they will not be proceeding with a demolition permit request at this time that is all of the announcements I have so that leaves us with open public comment there any members of the public in attendance this evening who would like to speak on matters regarding historic preservation that are not on tonight's agenda so this is for cases not on tonight's agenda um you can approach the public comment mic right staff sees no members of the public approaching the microphone and recommends a motion to open open and close public comment motion second okay all in favor I all right and that brings us to Old business Robert if you'd like to call the first case before we do that so uh we also going to be calling a couple of cases out of order so I believe we're going to be uh skipping down to new business number 9C that's case H-24 d316 uh for 172 Belmont Avenue we're going to be moving that up in the agenda to directly after uh we hear 160 Sussex Street yeah um so I just wanted to make that announcement clear up front um and with that um I'll call uh under old business 8B that's case h-23 d126 the applicant is Gino Connell Esquire on behalf of nittan Kumar owner the address is 160 Sussex Street in the PA hook historic district the application is for a certificate of appropriateness for new construction a proposed four-story masonry Residential Building at the West End of a row of altered contributing book Matched italianate tow houses constructed Circa 1865 to replace and partially reconstruct the former building on the site demolished by order of the construction code official 2003 this was carried from the August 12th 20124 regular HPC meeting to St um you can we don't actually typically do that but yeah it's all right none of us are licensed because they don't license for historic preservation so thank you chairman oh do do you mind just pressing or tapping on the push button just to yeah you don't have to press it you just like a tap and as long as it's green it's on it's on now there we go perfect thank you all these technology CH challenges I'm glad I could handle that well well so good evening chairman and members of of historic commission my name is gin o Connell I am representing nitt Kumar the owner I have one witness tonight Jason bassil is our architect he's all ready to go he'll present the plans to you and um it's a for a new residential two family building thanks for your procedures for I imag Jason hasi he has we're goingon to swear him in first though I do good evening chairman and Commissioners my name is Jensen vasel I'm the architect for uh the project at 160 Sussex Street which is a um new building that's being constructed on a vacant lot it's a three family building it' be a a proposed three-story uh three-story brick building the building is uh just coming up now the um the building is at the corner of Sussex and vanvo Street um and the building is uh as was uh prefaced earlier a a book Matched uh italianate uh on a block of book match italianate row houses so this building um the proposed building would restore the front facade to its um original uh configuration uh basically the based on the historic evidence photos and whatnot it would it would restore the the front of the building and would align with the rest of the block on the for the bulk of the building the bulk of the building would be conforming it's a 60% uh lock coverage and um it would consist of um as I mentioned two residences with storage at the lowest level at the ground level um so the as far as the um the building the materials um you know the front the front uh brick would match the would match the the rest of the block the ground floor would be a c fast Brownstone which would match again the rest of the block the stoop would be a replication of the rest of the block so the front facade would be um fully um uniform with um the with the adjacent buildings the windows would be wood um the windows would be um with the uh wide Styles uh same same original details as the um as what was what was there from the 1938 photo that you can see on that HPC1 so as we we move through again the building is conforming on the site plan you can see that 60% lock coverage the small uh stairs that come out the first floor unit BEC the U on the back of the building because those are um that build because the ground floor is just storage um we're also adding a um a garden along all of vanor street that would align with the rest of the gardens um that would be fenced in with a um a a fence that's consistent with the block frontages um and at the front of the building the again the they'd be fenced in with a planter bed and that would be um again consistent with a block Frontage replication of of other adjacent properties which I'll show you demonstrate in um in some further slides the um the inside of the areaway inside the fence would be a natural blue stone um and which uh with a thermaled finish and there would be a fence at the property line um that fronts vanv street from uh the back of the building to the adjacent garage which is to the um um to the to the uh north of that of the um of the property so our property um as an end as an end building we have an open yard to the uh that extends to the other uh Corner property on the next sheet hpc3 you can see uh the context of uh the the site location uh again it's the it's the corner lot um on the front you can see how uniform the the buildings are on the Block um you can also see the um 158 Sussex which is uh directly adjacent on on on detail number two um which uh our replication would be closely matched to that building um I'll mention um that is leaning a bit from when the other building had been had been removed so we will have a um a seismic Gap or a thin gap between the two buildings because it's impossible to exactly Stitch it in or align it that there's nothing Plum there that's left um number three the photo number three you can see there are some uh some stairs and Decks that as you go um further down the block uh ours would be much less intrusive we we've have a little bit more building space but not as many uh not uh no encumbrances or no other Decks that would project off the back in on sheet hpc4 um you can see the interior layouts at the top uh the top plans show the again the storage space at the ground floor um which is in the flood zone so that is going to be built um to be wet flood proofed um the the first floor uh the first through third floors which have the the resident residential units and a roof deck which is uh only for the the unit 2 the top floor unit and then at the bottom of that sheet you can see the iron replication of the uh of the fence that's along um that's along Sussex Street and Van vorest and some enlarg details as well on H on the following page HPC 5 there's the restoration elevation for the front facade um again outlining the wood windows we do have um some site historic evidence of the lentils that are in possession of the um of the historic preservation office so we'll be taking that lentil and replicating it in cast stone um M creating a mold for it and replicating it the same go uh a similar um similarly for the hood around the door we would be um replicating the adjacent the site evidence at the adjacent property so we'd be um we'd be forming a mold and casting it in the original way which is a four part casting for the for the hood around the door the doors themselves would be um replicated to a property down the street which I'll I'll show you in a second and the cornice would be which is consistent all the way down the block the Cornus would continue to the end of the of the block uh at the end of our building and would stop at the end of our building so it has the little setback um where there's ever a change in Cornish you'll see that you'll see this detail where the cornice the top cornice piece the board is set back a little bit from the end of the building um the coral the coral details as well are there and um The Brownstone material is uh which is really cast stone at the front of the building with horizontal rustication again um some same to match the U that block there are there are two uh water tables as well a major and a minor minor water table the one at the floor line and the one that's just about um 2T off the off the ground that also would be the same profile um as the rest of the block one other note on this sheet there is um the proposed light would be a appendant light that's tight to the to the inside of the uh head of the door so um it's in the actual thickness of the wall um not mounted on the face of the building on the following sheet HPC 6 you can see the proposed side elevations so as a clear distinction between new and new and existing or new and restoration and new construction the restoration of the front facade is is complete um and then the side elevation is is considerably simpler uh We've removed the um the lentils from the tops of the windows we've removed the cast stone at the ground floor and brought the brick all the way down to grade and then popped in some um of the uh the flood vents in order to have to comply with um the flood regulations one other note on this sheet you can see an En llarge detail of the stoop again the stoop has is based upon other site evidence for um adjacent properties down the block the um we will have a gate on the side entrance the side of the the stoop and there will be a uh a light that's not visible on the underside of the stoop land in um but it will be motion censored for security so it will not be visible though to the uh the public right of way on the rear facade um again a little bit simpler windows but maintaining the same brick so the brick looks together all the window colors from the front to the side would be the same uh the same color but different material so on the front of the building it's wood on the side of the building it would be aluminum clad so the uh the cladding they they would in the consistent color throughout um on the and then the next sheet uh hpc7 shows um the front window detail with the enlarged mutton the thin the thick mutton in the middle um HPC 9 shows the um the the front the lower door on the basement and as well as the um the door that's underneath the stoop and the side cornice so the side cornice is a very simple two- layer fascia board um that's wrapped in aluminum so that aluminum would be um the same color as the windows so there's consistency between the windows the door colors and the uh and the cornis color on sheet HBC 9 you can uh see the Jack Arch above the windows um simpler detail with the aluminum uh the aluminum clad windows on the side but still with the variation six the curve top and uh HPC 10 is the is finally the back window which is a aluminum clad uh window with uh with a 2 over two configuration uh on HPC1 there are some details for the roof deck um including the sky door so the sky door um cannot be visible from the public RightWay we set the the um the the roof deck back from both frontages so that it can't be seen um and it's a it's a pedestal roof roof deck system uh minimal and minimum size and nature you can see two sight line diagrams there at the bottom number five and number six which uh both both show um no visibility from the public RightWay and um finally on the last sheet hpc2 uh we're showing the the existing photo of that block Frontage our proposed building showing that that uh is consistent with the other with the other uh predominant buildings on that block um the rear fascia gutter which is a just a simple a simple black gutter detail black aluminum with a leader the front door which is a rep which is uh which is to match um a subject property down the street which is noted here and uh also made out of wood Custom Custom Uh custom designed rais panel at the bottom there's a large pyramidal uh design in that bottom panel that would be replicated as well as the detail around the um OG detail around the um around the window and the and the base panel and then finally uh a very simple uh rear stair from the rear unit to the backyard so um simple metal stair and some cable rail just to um just to be as as non as non-invasive as possible POS uh that concludes our presentation of the of the drawings of this proposed project and I have some samples to pass around if you would like yep you can pick a side to start on that I would recommend over there more Commissioners on that side the brick and the blue St [Music] one last thing i' I'd like to note the um The Brownstone is the cast stone is going to match the other um buildings on that block I do not have a sample here of the matching we would have to do that submit that to HBO and they would have to um review it and approve it prior to fabrication do any Commissioners have any questions for Jensen or want him to go back to part of the plans or anything like that um The Brick Choice has that been reviewed with the HBO yes okay and um the um the window configuration um how did you arrive at 4 over4 on the front facad uh with the um with staff on site um we went over the which which windows are uh would have the the configuration what was historically uh accurate for that for those windows and and you chose on the van vorce facade to do what configuration there so that is um those are just two over two again a little little simpler with a standard with a standard s and then two over two on the rear that's right and you're you're reasoning for um going simpler on what I would consider a major since you're a corner building it's a major facade the rationale for doing that and not continuing to Cornus around would be to um to make a a clear distinction of what was being replicated in what is new because the original building didn't go this far far back and those window openings aren't in the same configuration so this was a delineation to have uh existing a new I should mention that we we did meet with um with paulus hook neighborhood association as well and there was discussion about wrapping the cornice around and keeping it just to end at the front facade and that was one of the points of discussion that um that was agreeable to uh to the neighborhood association as well that you treat it as you have it in your in your drawings that's correct understood any other questions comments should we go to staff comments I go ahead please I'm just wondering um is there precedent for this with um partial reconstruction of a building like this um I'm you know just looking at the the standards you know it it refers to reconstruction being appropriate when it's essential for understanding and interpreting a value of a historic district or when no other building structure object or landscape feature with the same associative value has survived Etc and here we have you know book Matched neighboring properties so why are we reconstructing I think danam will get to the thought process behind the Reconstruction during staff comments okay so we can answer any other questions then and then if not we can jump into stuff okay and I had a question about the treatment on the rear of the building corre the stairs that are coming down um from the I not the ground floor but the floor above are they visible to the public right away or is there a fence enclosing that area there's a fence all along that that uh vanor correct um but you have a metal fence and does that change to a higher fence at the rear it does so there's um on that second sheet the hpc2 there's a six foot high wood fence that's at the property line and then there's a there's the planter bed and then a metal outside of that that's correct my guess my question which I'm not able to see is does that higher fence continue to the back of the building it does yes so okay that that answers my question thank you you're welcome I have a question about the brick sure um I don't see maybe missed it is this a thin brick system or is it a full brick or no it's a full brick full brick okay yes great yeah I just I think I'd like to hear more about the rationale for the full restoration on the front but not carrying that through onto the side of the building because viewing it from a corner perspective you're going to be looking at a restoration with four over4 windows alongside of 2 over two and a a much simpler brick facade with no wrap on the cornice I'm I'm just not understanding how that is going to work all right well then let's keep testimony open and then we can uh do you guys want to do staff comments or public comment first just cuz do you guys have these questions now usually we do public comment first sure okay there any members of the public in attendance who would like to speak regarding this application please approach the public comment mic all right staff sees no members of the public present and recommends a motion to open and close public comment motion second second all right all in favor I I all right I think Dan's going to do his staff comments from there so I don't want to give Maggie and Mike and Jonathan my cooties um the uh subject building has been uh in my hopper for the past 23 years so uh this just keeps on coming back the original building was built prior to 1865 um it was developed uh as Henderson Place uh as a particular row of uh modest uh middle class housing the uh the cornis the lentil uh were painted to simulate uh The Brownstone shrim the windows were uh given a wide Center M with a uh bead down the center to somewhat replicate an italianate window which would open out as a casement but it had the uh practical use of a German or uh English double hung window the uh the pattern of the windows is based on uh surviving site evidence on the Block and comparisons with 1938 tax autographs along the rest of the block can you get that back up just lost it thanks okay uh as uh Jensen had said I have the one of the lentils uh for the second and the third floors uh in my office and uh that has been used uh several times to make castings for other buildings that were being reconstructed uh the first floor window is slightly wider and will'll need to have a special mold made as will the uh the lentil over the front door um staff would be more than happy to help the architect and the applicant to try and get permission from uh neighbors who have the same uh configuration uh The Brownstone Sills and The Brownstone uh basement ashler the water tables and the stoop will all be a cast Brownstone okay to match the Brownstone um that was originally there we do have the bottom stair uh still on site for color matching the bricks that were shown are a very good modern equivalent of the historic uh uh bricks along the block um this building uh has seen a lot of uh uh problems over the years uh at the late 19th century there was a store put in at the basement uh which seems to have perhaps uh not helped the building the store was closed up approximately 1965 and the building was or the storefront was blocked up and it seems like uh some metal jacks uh when the building was being demolished it appeared that there were some metal jacks that were inserted to hold the building up when it was blocked in uh for several years uh the building remained vacant and uh essentially became a victim of demolition by neglect uh prior owner had come into the commission uh with an application to demolish the building that application was denied unanimously by the commission uh then a another application came in to stabilize and to uh and to rehabilitate the building however that application was woefully incomplete and woefully incomplete for uh quite a while if I if my memory serves me right it was about a year and a half uh the staff of the historic commission uh namely Claire Davis uh spoke with our construction code official who ordered the building to be uh stabilized a engineering firm came in the building was stabilized uh at the West Side uh large wooden uh braces were put up and that held the building for approximately 2 years uh there was uh some movement uh that was noticeable and it appears that in I have the date in here I believe it was 2004 the by 8404 the building had been ordered to be demolished by order of the construction code official the front facade had started to delaminate and it was beginning to pull the facade of 158 the Western Wall was beginning to tilt towards the west and the construction code official at the time was afraid that this building could pull down 158 and the adjacent buildings perhaps 158 at that time was exhibiting displacement of bricks the mortar joints had started to widen and uh the building was taken down very rapidly very quickly um and apparently uh relieved some of the pressure at least for the time being uh we did try to salvage bricks uh cast iron uh the doors but unfortunately uh due to the emergency nature of the work uh we were were not able to salvage anything except for one of the uh uh the lentils uh other pieces had cracked or had uh fallen during demolition uh there were a few attempts by uh uh owners and prospective purchasers to come in and to build a building on the site and one of the conditions of all of those um uh applications was that the front facade of Henderson Place be reconstructed so that you had it you have the center at 146 148 I believe and you have the repetition that goes straight down um that has been a consistent requirement to the commission which did not permit the original demolition on the side um the commission has uh been somewhat more uh lenient uh there have been uh number of different uh proposals brought before the commission uh some were more modern some were more traditional um this one happens to be a more traditional um uh rendering but it is simpler I think that the Reconstruction of the front um although technically uh because we are not using cast iron because we are not going to be using U uh Brownstone uh the Reconstruction of the front facade I use that a little bit Loosely but it is as close as we would be able to get um without um uh having to find uh new lentils uh these are no longer in production and production is very hard and costly uh but we are making a very good attempt to reintroduce this lost element into the streetcape on the side uh it was the applicant and architect's choice to do a more traditional rendering um and I think that while a more modern rendering could be just as uh could be as successful or more successful um generally the commission has left that to the uh to the applicant uh unless unless there was a good reason for another approach I do think that the Simplicity of the side um does help to distinguish it from the front uh as a reconstruction and um excuse me while I reconnect um and the west elevation is also not a copy of the original uh building there are um there are more window openings being uh put in and the window openings uh span a uh uh a larger section of the wall um I think that the reintroduction of the front aaway and the front railing is quite important especially on the West Side um where most likely given sight evidence um at all the other Corners uh in the adjacent area there was a small areaway that separated the public sidewalk from the building and uh would give a modum of privacy um to the Dwellers they're in um with conditions uh staff feels that he can uh recommend the approval of this project um I'm giving a very uh quick synopsis of the history and I think that Jensen was able to give a good good synopsis of the materials uh that are being used and the rationale behind the construction my biggest concern as staff is that we do not have any sort of engineering drawings we do not have a soils report soil study um and I am concerned considering that uh I understand that the uh buildings in this area have been prone to movement that uh new construction uh could perhaps put adjacent historic resources at some risk so before any uh construction permits or zoning approvals are filed for um I think it would be incumbent on the commission to condition any approval on the submission of uh soils reports and uh uh engineering studies to make sure that the adjacent historic buildings are not harmed also um the commission uh most likely uh would want to make sure that uh an engineer is uh hired to monitor the buildings during excavation during construction uh crack monitors should be in place uh and uh uh monitoring should go on throughout uh the project since my voice is giving out does anyone have any questions or any thoughts yeah um Dan so I I mean I think this goes back back to the question I raised a little earlier which is I I mean if we accept the premise of reconstruction I I don't have a problem with the proposed design but as a threshold matter I'm not certain that reconstruction is warranted under the historic design standards based on just my plain reading of them so particularly if if this were you these were all uniform matching proper properties and one of them were being reconstructed I think there would be a stronger justification because having one missing or standing out would break up the Rhythm and the harmony of the block but here you have the property at the end and if it's distinctive then it just seems like a separate it stands separate from that uniform block of properties so again I'm why why are we reconstructing rather than just treating this entire his new construction because it uh this is the end of a book Matched row you have a center point okay and uh you have a double staircase two doors and then your doors uh kind of flip if you would and from across the street this completes the road that was once Henderson Place visually um also uh I do think that this helps to show people what the original plan for the street was supposed to be it was supposed to be a large Grand facade a Monumental facade uh that rep repeated itself um in such a way that you lost track of exactly where did your building begin where did your building end also it does speak to the point that these buildings sometimes we can't save them um entirely um but we can trust TR to preserve their memory and their visual um uh character and if you go to that block and if you look I think that another building would be quite an intrusion in the row regardless of whether it's at the end of the row or in the middle of the row um I think it would become an intrusion uh it would not necessarily be subordinate to this Row the other thing is that this building was not to be demolished the commission saw it as being important enough to be stabilized and uh if uh the commission would like I could uh I could find the uh the records of the hearings and the court hearings um and the commission did Prevail in making sure that the building was not demolished um until demolition by neglect uh ran a muck and we were not able to save the building um and it was uh fairly quick and catastrophic uh there was it was uh I was present during the Demolition and the demo crew was even concerned um to salvage things knowing full well that the bricks and the cast iron and the wood had material value for resale uh their uh their concern was to get the building down safely okay I I I do find that um historic context helpful so thank [Music] you if I might Ponder or think out loud a little bit uh with my fellow commissioner Indulgence um typically Dan your your your thorough and rigorous um history and explanation of the of the previous building that stood on this site um I it paints a really Vivid picture which I I deeply appreciate but that building was it was demolished right and then and and so typically when I when I see applications that um are not a repair of an existing building or a repair of or a restoration of fabric that in some semblance Still Remains when it's a whole new like whole wholly new um structure that simulates an old old building typically I I find that objectionable because I think it it brings down the historic quality of actual historic buildings I I find the the confusion of a new building that sort of pretends to be old uh a a um an intrusion on the historic quality of actual historic buildings the reason why I find myself kind of waffling from that position in this application is because of your argument about the block which is to say in the same way that you know if a corner of a historic building got damaged and new bricks were brought in to repair the building this your argument about this building essentially repairing the block as the in other words the the historic um structure we are trying to um we're trying to repair is not the building which is gone it's the block that's that's an argument I I I I find myself more swayed by I you know I can't help but think that there would have been a way to do that with a contemporary architectural language that speaks both to our time but also is differential to the Rhythm and massing and and and language of the historic building so I I I feel like there could have been a both and situation as you say that's not the path that the architect or the applicate um chose to take so you know so in my mind the the the conflict that I'm weighing in my head is is is is this is this a sort of a zombie of a of an old building that's sort of like you know rising from the dead or is this is this more about more about the block I'm I'm I'm going back and forth but I'm I'm if this building I going back to your comments about uh if we had a building that had lost a corner and we would be repairing it I I do think that that is very much the analogy that I'm trying to to draw I'm just not doing it very succinctly um I do think that this is an integral part of the row and we have had uh a number of other buildings where the facades have been reconstructed um 135 137 Sussex Street 72 76 Sussex Essex Street uh large part of uh 47 2 80 4th Street uh there are a number of buildings um where we have very little left actually of the historic building except for walls that have been uh opened for large doors and picture windows that have been essentially reconstructed to put things back in order I do Wonder though if um we did not have this almost 20year Gap okay um of uh various applications and applications that were approved and then delayed if this was right after yeah the building had come down um if the clock had not been run out I think that we would probably be well to me the the the critical threshold is not the Gap it's the demolition the demolition was necessary for understood and that's that's where I I I the trouble that I'm having is is are we building a fake I'm not trying to answer my own question I'm I'm just letting you know sort of we're doing our best to reconstruct an integral part of the row y okay um there's been a lot of research done a lot of measurements done on site um the files for this project and be more than happy to bring them in they're voluminous I think that Maggie has seen them um they're take up a good part of our desk um and the building was recorded um so that it could be reconstructed the um so it is staff's opinion that it would be appropriate to reconstruct the front facade of this building to complete the rout um so Dan I I think you cited some precedent for reconstructing facades in their entirety or significant components of the facade um are there any other situations that come to mind that mirror this situation where we reconstructed an entire building or substantially all of a building for purposes of basically uh reconstructing a portion of a block um you know I think the way that commissioner song explained it was pretty much what I had in mind yes I cannot remember I am trying to recall where Dan I might be able to help you Eerie Street um there was a owner who basically took the facade down demoed the facade and and they were required to replace it uh to keep that row intact yes I can I can I can uh testify to that 27 eie Street uh one of the uh first mayor of Jersey City his name was Gregory uh one of the Gregory Cottages uh built about Circa 1833 1835 uh the applicant had come in uh wanting to put two stories on this end gabled uh uh Rous uh of Two and a Half stories he was told no uh the commission and staff both told him and the building uh lost its front facade and its back wall on a Saturday morning right uh this was a complete row just uh like uh uh the Sussex Street row is and there was a community outroar uproar um and the building was reconstructed with the bricks I was actually not employed by the city at that time but I did get to number the bricks and to try and find try and segregate the bricks from the face of the building from the bricks that were used on the interior of the building um that was really rather important um and there was this great huan cry I remember the uh uh this is before cell phones were really popular but um Word of Mouth traveled very quickly um neighborhood showed up at commission meetings um and I think one of the reasons we don't have much in the way of people here today uh there was a meeting with the community and they were told uh we're going to reconstruct the front facade uh which has been something the community has looked at for the past 20 years or so but yes uh 27 eie Street was a very important uh uh and it was the end unit as well it was the end unit as well and it was a very important way of uh and if you go there today the Reconstruction was done uh with uh very very it was it was a quality reconstruction to the point where um the owner God be good to him uh was able to use drawings from uh historical American Building survey that showed the transomed and sidelight sidelit uh Greek Revival door which uh the sidelights and the transom were on an angle and really particularly magnificent uh construction uh even that was put back uh so that when that building all the other buildings in that row including the one that was recorded by Habs Habs ha BS historic American buildings survey uh they had all been altered over time 27 was reconstructed in such a way that we were able to have the appearance um of the original building as a guide well I'm I'm certainly more comfortable knowing that the commission would be acting consistently but yes this is this is very this is this is consistent and I can think of a couple of other buildings um mostly uh buildings that uh I mean right now I'm reviewing a building uh that had uh so many picture windows put into it that basically all I have left are two pilasters on either side I mean it's in the middle of a row um and uh it's an important Grecian row on Fourth Street uh with these pilastered buildings built to represent a temple and uh uh that will be a reconstruction um to you know it's in the center of the block but it will be able to uh give us the visual appearance of what that block once looked like so I'll complete the story I'll allow the other Commissioners to weigh in but at this point I would support a zombie building this Halloween really thank you Austin that's what I'm here for any other questions or comments for staff there was one other thing uh I did want to note that in the paulus hook uh report uh the paulus hook report uh is probably one of our better reports um from the 1970s 80s uh in terms of descriptive writing and uh the uh the report uh talks about this particular construction model being uh type B Italian a they actually call out uh this particular type of building in the report as being particularly contributing okay I'm particularly happy to see the um the fence that travels completely around the property and the landscaping that's taking place within it to create that that uh as you mentioned a sense of privacy or separation from the sidewalk on that facade I think that makes a major difference and it does help to continue that um uh the effect of having some uh nature within an urban environment that would have been very popular um During the period of significance when this building was built rather I see that the corner planted quite quite well you have front as well so that difference as well yes most of this row this row is also uh rather special because it does not have any parking uh intruding in the front yards and pretty much every yard has a tree and some Greenery and uh an actual Garden within okay any other questions comments additions to conditions that's a good rhyme all right Jensen or Jean do you guys have anything you wanted to add the applicants comfortable with the conditions that were mentioned by staff I do want to add a couple of more cool well first of all I would be remiss if I didn't thank Dan for his input not only the history of the building but all the suggestions uh to make the pro project that much better and also Diane case from hook we all went to the uh build to the site we spent a couple of over an hour there looking at everything so I wanted to put it on the record that we appreciate and I we agree to the current conditions and when I hear the extra conditions I'll probably agree to those too okay okay yeah that was the one time we let you come to a s visit there were several others um I did want to note um I noticed this in my uh uh my notes uh the pendant fixture um the community had asked that the pendant fixture actually be inserted within so if you could do some sort of a high hat or something that it's not actually coming down um please remove the aluminum cladding on the side fascia uh we could use a painted cement board perhaps um of some sort um while staff isn't uh while staff and the community who brought this up are not necessarily opposed to the aluminum clad fascia on the side everyone was concerned about oil canning which uh happens oil canning yeah the buckling in theh the buckling of the aluminum so a painted uh material uh a ctitious uh would be fine and uh the door um would be a uh Recreation based on site evidence I believe the door that one of the doors that we had looked at was at 146 um it will be a custom door uh not a true style or a Marvin door okay but uh those are um those are the conditions that uh staff recommends and uh recommends approval and we also agree to those conditions great all right that being said if anyone wants to make a motion for approval with the conditions in the staff report and read into the record I'll make a motion second okay amuso and Cronin I'll do a roll call vote Commission commissioner sand Camp hi commissioner Gunther hi commissioner sakong I commissioner Cronin I commissioner uza I commissioner gri is absent commissioner blazak is absent Vice chair Guera I and chairman Gordon I right there are seven votes in favor none against and no extensions the COA with conditions is approved you're welcome thank you guys all right so we are now taking a little bit of a detour into uh an item from new business it's labeled 9C this is case H-24 d316 the applicant is estaban asorio D our construction for Yasmin Taylor Hart owner the address is 172 Belmont Avenue in the West Bergen East Lincoln Park historic district the application is for a certificate of appropriateness for the replacement of the historic clapboard at all four sides of the house with sementi substitute siding replacement of original historic wood decorative window moldings with cementitious substitute trim boards at secondary facades while M maintaining original window trim at primary facade as well as clapboard and trim at the first floor porch of a contributing altered 2 and 1 half story frame Queen an dwelling you can come up to the podium as you set up we're just going to swear you intim o s r i all right can you just make sure the microphone is on at the podium if it doesn't have a green light you tap where it says push there we go I TR on cool all right and then you should are you plugged in um I don't have anything as far as plans or oh that's fine I just have some paperwork in front of me so okay that's fine um if you want to present it you just plug in um but you don't have to yeah okay that's fine you're welcome to begin your testimony um good evening commission please forgive me any miscues here this is my first time with a commission this size uh I'm with your construction and future remodeling we are a a private residents exterior Home Remodeling Company we specialize in fiber cement Roofing and windows Teresa reached out to us uh she had a project consultant go out to the house and they committed to a contract to reside the home a project manager was assigned to the home and the project was going to continue however there was a miscue um that being was we didn't check with the town or Jersey City and they assigned a crew and they started the work and at that time when we started the work Jersey City officials came by and stopped the work because we discovered we were in a historic district that time I spoke with Dan and I understood as far as the implications that were about to occur uh that is not something us as a company we we take um we take a lot of Pride as far as our contracts as you can see I uploaded all of it everything's extremely detailed so the project manager assigned to is no longer assigned to it I submitted all the paperwork as necessary um and yeah that's all I have for now do you want to explain to the commission what was proposed for the building like what you the contracts says you guys were going to do this so the initial contract uh was a fiber cement collap siding uh Cedar Mill finish uh Country Lane red according to the contract that was proposed also with 54 X4 trim using a hidden Fastener system uh using narrow crown staples in the back of the Hidden Fastener system so no exposed Nails which is common with fiber we don't want any rust coming down after rigns so and also we're going to use a poly alphan building wrap with acrylic tape to seal the building before before you applied the clapboard underneath yeah yes sir actually like take a step back so essentially we tear everything down to the substrate and confirm as far as the substrate's flat and finished more importantly we checked for any wood rot um any mold so at the time the team that was assigned to it was more of our senior teams because of the type of building it was uh the pump jacks are really tight it's really high so so anytime when we rip everything off we immediately start uh weatherproofing the building cuz you're running against the clock they found wood rot in all the corners and also as far as Junction walls around the building so we started proceeding as far as uh replacing the wood in necessary areas we use a minimum of uh either CDX or RTD uh no CDX or sorry no OSB uh as far as wood replacement but also to the exist existing thickness where necessary so once we confirmed as far as the substrate was in good shape and it was flat and finished we started putting building wrap on the house again we use an olone uh paper wrap so if I could interrupt you just for the narrative here so what happened was the original material had already been stripped off the building and you were already securing and water proofing the building at the point where the project was stopped yes sir so all the original material that was on the building has been removed on four sides on four sides and the trim and all that has also been removed on four sides and and is lost at this point I see could I just yeah please just trying to understand where we are I might be able to uh uh explain a little bit better what is left on the rear facade which would be the north facade the north facade the East and the West facades have been stripped okay there is no more um clapboard there's no more uh fascia wood uh there's no more trim around the windows except for the wooden trim on the east side around a stained glass window on the front of the building the clapboard has been removed from the Gable down however from the porch the first floor down uh work had stopped at that point so the historic fabric is still remaining at the porch the first floor we just found a photo that depicts exactly what you're talking about the that an exhibit should should we make it part of that well I imagine you're looking at the application materials correct Commissioners um right the ones that are linked memorandum it's it's attached perfect just wanted to clarify that thank you yeah okay that would be in the in the staff report there is a photograph yes of how the building looks currently taken from the West uh the shingled Gables have not been uh uh removed the shingles at The Gables have not been removed either I think that's a fair assessment uh the wood trim at the main facade second floor is still there go ahead continue please uh so once we tore everything off we confirmed the subray we had the building wrap on we sealed all the seams with acrylic tape in weather boarding fashion and at that point we stopped all work um the dumpster was removed unfortunately that had all the wood clap inside of it so there's no uh we couldn't retrieve it at that point and that was in July that point I spoke with Dan and again I understood as far as the severity of the issue the project manager assigned to it is no longer assigned to it um so we are applying for a certificate of appropriateness to get the house sealed up as soon as possible um while staying in line with uh Dan's um recommendations I have a question about the um proposed cladding the is it similar in sort of the profile and like uh is the original CLA bir or is it a different texture is it like more of a shake or or a shingle or is it clap more more of a the clap like the clapboard that came off the house this I have U materials here oh great there you go great this is the hidden Fastener system we use for all the corners around the windows goes behind the trim again we don't like any exposed Nails on the trim because once the weather hits the trim or the nails they start to rust over time you start to see the rust on the trim start come down this is the building wrap breathable but also let it through and that's the clapboard piece of it but not in this color no sir no it will be a Country Lane Road you don't have a sample of the color yeah so we do have a sample again uh when we started the project the project manager the time we purchase the materials and the materials are on site there also you have your materials already as well all the materials are on site for this project it it puts us in a very difficult position what you're describing here is not ideal obviously we would prefer to be able to advise you before purchases were made and product was committed to and so it's yeah we'll see what we could do to sort it out and we're obviously going to hear from staff what staff recommends we do MH I'm I'm not maybe I'm the only one I'm not sure what I'm reviewing because yeah exactly traditionally we have we're presented with drawings and details and samples in the colors that they're intended um that documents in in in written form what it is the proposed work represents um in the absence of that I'm not sure how to evaluate this application yeah uh maybe I could walk the Commissioners through this yeah maybe we should hear from staff up front um would that thing that would be fun would that be agreeable absolutely so what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask that you look at your uh at the uh application materials that you have in front of you and I'm going to try and walk you through how staff would have uh evaluated the project had none of this taken place if if we may we'd probably rather hear how you suggest we handle the situation at hand the history is not going to help us the the situation that we have in front of us is what we need to resolve so I I mean that's just my personal opinion but to to skip ahead a little I think Dan you were proposing that we approve it on only a temporary basis um did you indicate what the next steps would be how temporary we're talking how do we handle it to to put a you know a finite date on it and how do we move forward do they have to come back I okay so there's a couple of different things uh involved here and I think that it might make more sense for me to walk through how this would have been reviewed had it come in denovo so that it is not staff alone making a decision to do something um or not do something uh staff is not able to and cannot approve the installation of substitute siding on this building okay this building originally had uh you can read in the in the uh designation report which I have outlined in the report originally had a shingled Gable uh Cedar shingled Gable had wood trim around the windows and a 4in reveal clapboard at the second and first floors um the the clapboard had a 4in reveal I understand that the proposed cementitious board will have a 7 in reveal um the our standards uh talk about identifying important character defining fabric so we had uh Clapper now we're just going to deal with the claer for the minute because that's what's been removed um staff would have recommended um had staff been consulted I think any of the staff present tonight would have recommended that we remove any damaged or deteriorated um uh siding and clapboard and replace it with new clapboard to match the historic clapboard uh there was deferred maintenance on the building uh and staff uh does acknowledge that there were several places in which the uh clapboard was in poor shape um however when we have a building that is uh clad and clapboard generally uh when we have visible sides even if they're secondary sides and we have clapboard we generally recommend that those sides be reclad with clapboard they're visible and they will age at the same rate they will perform the same way as the sides of the building as as the primary facade of the building and there will be an integral Unity between all the facades um and this is something that we do have a number of um we have a number of applications for this in the Westberg and East Lincoln Park historic district because these buildings are often clad in uh shingles and clapboard um on rare occasions the commission has approved a substitute sighting when there was already a substitute sighting on a secondary facade that was visible um and the primary facade uh is generally the facade that we try to restore as best as is possible if we are looking at uh uh a hierarchy of importance here um the primary facade of course would be the most important the secondary facades they are seen through an Alleyway um both secondary facades have three-sided Orioles um and you can see the cross Gables there uh they are an integral part of the building um if the applicant had come to us uh asking to clad the back in a ctitious uh substitute sighting I probably would have uh encouraged against it um but I would not um but I probably would have issued a certificate of no effect because it would not have been visible from the public right away um now you had some particular questions well the questions revolved around just understanding the circumstances and what we were as um commissioner sakong said what is it that we're deciding here uh it's it seems fairly obvious that the material that's been purchased and the the fact that the building's been stripped is it is what it is but we how do we we can't approve a 7in reveal of cementious material on a building that requires a wood clapboard I'll go further even if the even if the clapboard being proposed was exactly the right Dimension and in exactly the right color and all that without seeing um drawing ings that say where this goes here this that goes there I I don't know that I would be comfortable approving that that application because again it would be in my mind an incomplete application irrespective of the choice of materials this has to do with the Integrity of the application in my mind mean the way that this application was presented was uh atypical to put it mildly so we're relying more heavily than we normally would on staff's um interpretation and explanation but just skipping to the end of the staff report I I think you gave two options both of which involve uh temporarily authorizing this work if only to uh prevent further deterioration of the building um is is that really are those really the only options I mean uh the weather proofing could that allow the building to be protected until such time as something more appropriate could be installed and then we could go back to square one with you know replacing the missing fabric my I think that the uh the owner has uh emailed me and has told me that the house is cold okay it is becoming cold out um this WP will only last so long um and if this had come into me denovo I would have said no right and I don't think that the commission would have approved it either right however in this circumstance um as historic preservation officer I have a building that just has wrap on it and how do I preserve that building and preserve the Integrity of the the house and the comfort of the person who lives in there my and I have thought thought about this for um months uh there I I cannot I cannot recommend that this uh material be applied uh as a permanent appropriate cladding on the building the best that I can do is to say that perhaps um we can do something temporary um I could and there are sometimes the rare application where uh Replacements are being made and we don't necessarily have drawings uh this is one of those uh very small cases um where we're not really even replacing like for like so this is a bit of a new um it's a bit new for me too um we this is the first application we have had um that I can remember where where we have an inappropriate material so so Dan are are you saying that really all we're evaluating is whether to approve this on a temporary emergency basis just so that the premises remain livable and habitable for the duration of the winter but I still not understanding the process here and how we then go to the next step of rehabilitating this building and restoring it to an appropriate condition because I don't think that's that's been discussed or covered I mean are they coming back when the weather when things warm up I mean what are we looking at how long is temporary temporary is from ever minus a day I would also like to like I'm well thank you I'm sorry I mean I just will interject here for a second I'm unclear of any Authority for the commission to Grant any temporary approvals exactly um I get what you're saying as to the exigency of the issue but I just before we proceed down this discussion of what does a temporary approval look like I don't know if anyone in this room could say what a temporary approval looks like right uh generally um we have done temporary approvals in the past um um when there have been some emergencies usually um it's to tide us over and it's for a period of um and there is a legal agreement uh St John's Church up on Summit Avenue they were granted a they were granted permission to temporarily uh have a uh rub roof on The Gables of the church while the building produced income to uh put the original slate roof back on the gables yeah but but here we're talking about installing inappropriate material and then hoping that at some point in the future it's coming back off again to put the right M so you know just to get without being insensitive to the applicant and the situation um there's no not meaning to be insensitive but at the same time the commission has guidelines under which we can operate um the right answer here is to buy the appropriate material that belongs on the building that is closely replicates what's missing and install that material um this is relatively speaking not a huge amount of material and that may not be any consol ation to the applicant but the bottom line is it's not a huge amount of material the right material should be installed on the property and it it's not such a large project that it couldn't be done quickly in which case it will be approved with a certificate of no effect so that it wouldn't have to come before this Commission in the first place exactly ex exactly if it was the correct material it could be expedited yeah so um I mean just to get to the chase I think that's where we're where we're going here yeah I I tend to agree and and I'm also I am definitely sympathetic but I also see that this is a self-inflicted wound so I think that factors in um May I in ask the commission's Indulgence for a 10-minute recess it's about that time thank you sure oh um it's it's 808 why don't we reconvene it 818 thanks sounds good forever minus all right so uh it's 8:20 calling the meeting back to order so I have spoken with the applicant and the owner owners and um would it be possible given the approaching winter to amend the application amending the application to doing three three sides of the building in the cementitious board uh including the two sides East and West that are visible from the public right of way as well as the rear in a 4 in reveal trying to copy the detailing of the front of the building uh where we have site evidence as best as we can and then restoring uh the wood or replacing the wood clapboard on the front of the building again I yeah I don't I don't think that's something we would approve if it came before us and I don't think that we would be likely to approve it now um moment please yeah I think we skipped public comment we went right into staff comment we'll do public comment before we do any yeah we'll backtrack yeah didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle I appreciate you bringing it up because I absolutely did forget about that despite the fact that there is literally something written here saying public comment start I mean you know that over remand the application back to staff uh for the moment for the time being um so that staff can see if there is some sort of very temporary not permanent weather proofing that can be taken that can be done on the house um that will not um harm any existing historic Fabric or preclude the restoration of the building and the applicants will come back with a revised scope of work with revised materials so rather than remanding you're just carrying it to the next meeting um we're carrying it to the next meeting but allowing me and my office as historic preservation officer to make sure that the house is warm I will use my prudent judgment to make sure that the house is not that the house is warm that it is not going to be taking on water that it is not going to get infiltrated by ver and that uh nothing will [Music] preclude restoration of the removed historic fabric so a quick question um all that's going to take a great deal of time what is the objection to purchasing the proper material and applying it ASAP why wouldn't that be as effective uh I'm asking you you're not the applicant but but it seems to me that that's just because because the current applicant the current contractor Works exclusively with fiber Cement Products right okay and there is an existing contract out there right okay and there is existing material and it's not that easy to just go out and you know just get another contractor and ret tool and so I'm asking the commission's Indulgence here to remand to carry the application as Jonathan had mentioned to the next meeting meanwhile remanding emergency remediation to me I mean that that that that's going back to the question of temporary measures I mean I don't think there's any objection to protecting the property or its inhabitants um I think one of the concerns is that a temporary measure could potentially become permanent so without in this case in this case I would I would say that I think if we can get the homeowner through the winter through the winter okay November November December December January January March March April uh six months I'm I'm not sure what we're talking about it's very abstract six months grace period did you give us an idea what the temporary measures look like yeah uh it could be additional WAP I'd have to do some research it could be some additional wrap it could be uh styrofoam um uh sheathing um with a tyvec on top of it um something to insulate the building a little bit I actually think that we should not be deliberating what the temporary measures look like in fact I think that's counter to sort of our interest so agreed um I was wondering should this just be carried and then that temporary thing become its own application that we are not involv involved with um yeah you Dan you wanted us to to table till next meeting and and then you can maybe make it into a no effect at that point but what uh one question if we do table it will he have the power to make sure like you know if there's a big rainstorm next week or something or if it gets really cold like what happens well it's again I think it's it's not us for us to decide how that asking if he'll have that power cuz someone will have to have the power to do that yes I I will I will assume that power um right in my office as historic preservation officer I've been doing this long enough I think I have the right to okay I'll just make a CH let's just carry the application agreed I thought that's why it was originally couched in terms of a remen because you were requesting some sort of special Authority that normally you would not be vested with in this case if these measures are within your power then I will don't ask don't tell okay then don't ask don't tell um and we will try we'll table it till next month well do we need we will table it to a date uncertain okay okay because I do not know when um uh uh Crafts People and materials and such will be able to be available but in the meantime uh I will recommend that another application be submitted for immediate remediation work that I will approve under my own that's fine I really do not want to see this on the tabled cases in June so let's just make sure that it doesn't you know slip through the cracks and I'm I'm speaking to the applicant more than to to you Dan well I appreciate that okay do we want to before we table it just public comment are there any members of the public present who would like to make a comment on this application seeing none staff recommends a motion to open and close public comment second all in favor I I and date uncertain uh carried to a date uncertain cool all right any Commissioners wanted to make a motion motion s c second uh roll call vote commissioner Gunther hi commissioner sakong hi commissioner Cronin hi commissioner emzo I commissioner samp I commissioner gri is absent commissioner sakong is AB I'm sorry commissioner sakong is here commissioner Blac is absent uh Vice chair guara I and chairman Gordon thank you Dan I all right there are seven votes in favor uh to table the application to a date uncertain thank you commission thank you thank you and good night night uh you by accident she V you as well I saw okay thank you thank you no worries all right okay so back to Old business There's No Business Like Old business [Music] um case everything old is that's good H2 h-23 d188 applicant Stephen Joseph Esquire on behalf of 445 Jersey Avenue SP LLC owner the address is 445 Jersey Avenue in the van vorce Park historic district the application is for a certificate of appropriateness for the conversion of the former St Mark's Church an altered contributing building constructed in 1888 and rectory building into residential units including but not limited to site work interior Renovations fa facade restoration and second floor Edition visible from public RightWay this is a recommendation to the Jersey City Zoning Board of adjustment and was carried from the regular HPC meeting of September 16th 2024 all right good evening everyone Stephen Joseph casano Quigley trami uh we are back we got a lot of great feedback last time I think everybody uh including myself and the and the applicant and the whole team is very excited for this project um we've Incorporated a lot of the comments that we got from everybody um the renderings that were done were not good so we redid them but we didn't have them in advance the hearing so we're going to have to enter those as an exhibit when we get to those we'll we'll enter them um but I'll just let will take it away and walk you through the changes you swear or affirm the testimony your about this proceeding truth Tru yes thank you sure it's William wenman last name is spelled w c k n m NN um okay um so um we were able to incorporate all of the feedback that was uh um discussed at the last meeting um uh there what I believe to be a significant Improvement to the project um and I'll just walk you through some of the the changes that were made um on a sheet by sheet basis um um so uh starting with with the site plan um uh the only the only change well the sign most significant change was the to the the rear yard um the setback of the rear yard setback was adjusted slightly um and we are maintaining uh remnants of the foundation wall in the in the rear yard so that's designated here um as uh with this white uh band here um we also adjusted the rear yard of the addition to the bester building so the rear facade of that building is set back um about 18 in from from the face of of the church so it gives a little bit better of a hierarchy compared to the the previous application um uh the other change that was made was the the Dormers um on the main roof of the church were slid back an additional two feet um and the uh fourth floor of the the vest building was also set back uh an additional 18 in um it was not directly visible but it's it the the view of that this addition is is uh was minimized as a result of the changes um so you'll see that on on some of the later sheets [Music] uh starting with the floor plan again the the changes to the rear yard you can see it at a slightly larger scale here um uh with both the church um as well as the the Vester building um other than that the the layouts are are U generally the same uh same same is true with the the upper floors those changes are are carried um throughout the the rest of the building um uh on the third floor again this these Dormers are slid in uh a little bit and and I hav't uh you'll see that in the sight sight line drawing as well as the the front elevation I I hatched in um the area of visibility um around the Dormers so you can see a little bit more clearly um and then as I mentioned the the the fourth floor here was was set back uh further as well right um the front elevation remains large largely unchanged um but one of one of the other changes that we incorporated was we um the the protective glazing that we were providing in front of the stained glass has been re relocated to the interior of the of the church so um that's been removed as well as the grills over the the rose window here um also it was discovered since since we completed the previous drawing set one of the panels has been removed on the um one of the protective panels that was over this window has been removed and uh it turns out there's a decorative wood trim around the window so that will be restored and repaired uh and repainted um so uh no change to the to the historic uh stained glass windows or the um uh trim uh around them excellent sorry one other thing I wanted to point out it's a little bit difficult when you look at the sight line drawing in section so we mapped out um the area of visibility here with respect to the the Dormers so basically if you're if you're looking if you're standing across the street looking up at the building um the nothing below this hatched area is visible uh it's the same for both sides it's it's a little tricky because when you look at the sight line drawing you have this angled wall here so when you look at it in section it doesn't really read clearly so we wanted to map that out on elevation so it was a little bit clear as to what's what's visible on the uh rear elevation the balconies were removed and the facade was simplified um and uh some some of the the openings on the ground floor were were modified as well just to have have it um align a little bit better from floor to floor so this this rear facade has been um simplified uh and the balconies have been removed one of the other key changes that we made was um to the fenestration of the Dormers um previously we had rectangular Windows um with the uh fiber cement sliding um we took a closer look at the the form of the windows as well as the materiality of the Dormer um and we felt that the the uh Square Windows the rectangular window in relation to the windows below were a little bit awkward so we changed the shape of the window to be an archtop window and um it's the idea was um sort of inspired by uh religious architecture when you look at Cathedrals for instance you have a a hierarchy of um of fenestration so for instance in a Gothic Cathedral you might have a an archway that separates the aisle from the Nave and then the windows the clear story above that are a um similar similarly proportioned opening uh but perhaps smaller in scale different Rhythm so that's exactly what we did here um this window is an exact it's almost a um half scale of of the windows below it and um the Rhythm Is Not only it's aligned with the windows below um uh and you can see that here with the center lines yeah excuse me before if you're going to move Beyond this image would you mind uh I know we had some discussion about the material um that you were using I think you had some type of board and batten at that level what is what is it now and what is the roof of the of the Dormer uh it's going to be a slate roof so the roof of the Dormer the church and the the steeple will be um like a a fux slate a da Vinci product which is in indicated on a later slide um the material for the for the Dormer itself has been changed to a gfrc panel or um a concrete glass fiber concrete panel which is it's a contemporary material it's very um uh simple in terms of the detailing but it's it's a masonry material so it relates to um The Brick the masonry the stone below so everything is even though it's a a new addition a new material um it's still a masonry uh [Music] material uh and those changes are reflected on the on the North side as well um no updates here other than what was previously discussed um same with the the sight line diagram um so again you can see what I meant by it being a little hard to read how this looks in elevation so um but um again just confirming that these Dormers won't be visible uh from directly across the street oops yeah sorry accompanyment there um um we also included another exhibit um looking at the visibility of the the Dormer from from York Street um so you can see it's it's roughly two two windows are are visible um but as you walk up and down York Street different portions of the elevation are visible so um we map that out uh up up here um this area here is generally the width if you're looking head on what would be visible but as you move up and down the street um these sections of the elevation would would also be visible in uh um you know smaller slivers um so it's it's it's a little bit of a projection as opposed to a direct uh elevation I really appreciate that detail thank you sure sure um so here are the uh material changes um this is a a closeup of of the slate roof um we went with a darker color uh to contrast from the the stone below um as well as from the the material for the addition um sorry the Dormers um and then we have the close-up of the the gfrc panel here so it's it's more of a a natural material there's natural variation in tone across the panels so it has a little bit more visual interest um than say a flat fiber cement or a metal panel so um we felt it was a a much better substitution um we did update the window details as I discussed previously um the only change was to the um the the the front facade uh where we're relocating the window um behind the stained glass the new window behind the stain glass and then um finally we have updates to all of to this rendering as well as three additional renderings that were produced so so this will be a an exhibit will if you could just um give the page numbers for each of these sure it's that sheet a 18 a19 a20 and a21 thank you um so a I don't think so a A1 yeah so this will be A1 I don't have any written down yeah A1 thank you yeah I sent it earlier today actually um so again um uh change to the Rose window um and then you know you can see how these were um how this this the bulk of this addition was pushed back previously it it had lined up roughly with the when you looked at it from this view it had lined up with this with the cornice but we slid it back further so to help further minimize it um and then the same thing with the dormers on the side um they are still obliquely visible but they're set back further to um uh reduce their impact um from the from the front elevation um this is a new rendering um this is just another view of the project from the opposite angle looking up and then um we did a rendering directly in front of the church um and we probably had about 10 revisions of this rendering going back and forth to make sure that the camera positioning was correct that the height of the the camera was correct and that the the distance from the building was was mapped correctly so um we we spent a great deal of time on this and we wanted to include um this view specifically um uh as as it relates to to the the the dormers on the on the main church and then finally we have our uh the rendering of the of the rear facade um we we didn't show these These Walls would be taller we're thinking probably somewhere between four four feet above grade but in order to showcase the elevation we we reduce the height of the height of the wall so um and that um concludes my testimony thank you do any Commissioners have any questions want to go back in the plans to look at something well it's greatly improved um no question about that I I really like a lot of the changes that you made in the sensitivity the unification of the materials the rear facades look look look great um the removal of the the balconies makes a huge difference uh appreciate that you brought the um Dormer back is there any hardship in bringing them back further so that they're not visible not visible at all yeah I don't think it's it's possible to have them be completely it's just the nature of the of of the block where you have the shorter buildings next to this taller structure I only ask because you can see the difference in your own renderings when they're not visible the the the C the the silhouette of the of the structure shines when those Dormers appear it's a whole different structure it just feels very different and if it's possible and it's not a hardship on the inside why not pull them back I think you pulled them back two feet and how long are these Dormers um I don't know know the total length off hand but it's the the depth of them is related to the interior spaces that are within the roof right so it's but I'm saying there's they're extensive they're extensive Dormers along the roof so I'm just if it's possible I would I would suggest you consider bringing them back even further and the other question I had is about the coloration that you've chosen on the front especially around the windows it's it almost looks like a bright white and I'm not sure is that a historical reference in terms of the color usage on the front I'm sorry which um so everything that surrounds a window it's I believe it's brick right this this is a white brick Oh The Brick itself is that color so the rendering is making it pure you know bright white so it's probably not I think the rendering implies that it's clean yeah it just the contrast seemed unusual for a church facade so I was just asking about that yeah yeah I think um you can see it better here it's more of like a a tan I'm I'm good um yeah I was just wondering I thought maybe you were painting it a color so no but otherwise all your other changes the fenestration on on on the those interior views really great and if the moving towards the cenus look the stone look I think is a great Improvement in the project thank you thanks for including our comments yeah similarly I I just want to say that to me this application as a demonstration of how exactly how this process should play out you know you come with a project you deal with a difficult existing structure that's funky and weird and you're inserting a program that wasn't original and and yet you and still you came with a strong idea that I think resonated with the commission and you know I think we gave you good feedback and and the fact that the project is so demonstrably improved for it um to me like this is the this is the reason why this Commission exist like applications like this so I just want to um commend uh the applicant for uh for for for improving the project and making it feel like improving as opposed to a series of compromises to make like you know um a commission happy um I I personally um looking at the plan and and seeing the layout of the of the Living Spaces within those Dormers I I I completely agree with commissioner gucciardo comment that it would be better if those Dormers could be pulled back but seeing those plans I also understand the hesitation sure um I I think too um if there's any um interior changes to the project in in in the configuration of those rooms that once we get into the construction you know before we finalize the framing of the roof and of those rooms I think we would we would consider stepping it back further um if well that's weird let let me let me rephrase that because um so one of the things that I suggest is that when these when the framing for these additions gets underway to do a mockup and to set it up you know fra frame it out so you can see what it's actually going to look like before they go and they construct the the whole entire addition um so I think what what uh my recommendation would be is to um lay out the framing for for the for the addition for these Dormers and then if I I I do think we we may have some uh wiggle room in in the field to push push it back further if if you'd like me to identify a dimension now um sorry are you but would that would the what would be discoverable in field like what what the space feels like from the inside or what the dorm would appear like from the outside well I I think you know um when you get into construction of these spaces of these rooms um there's a a lot of um um realization as to what the space actually feels like once you're inside it um and I was merely suggesting that if there's any opportunity to push it back further that that we would consider it you know it's funny I um I was about to say that I would be comfortable voting on this application uh with the dimensions as shown but if you think that there is wiggle room on that on on those dimensions in my mind those are dimensions that are fully um uh anticipatable I'm sorry for the that's not a word but those those are conditions that you can anticipate without starting construction I mean you could you could tape out Dimensions you know on a floor somewhere you can if do a rendering you could do plan studies with furniture in my mind that based on um if you if there is room to push that those ends of the dmer back I I I would love to request that you do so prior to going into construction sure um that's something you would feel comfortable as a condition along the lines of like the applicant shall continue to work with staff regarding visibility of the Dormers prior to sub the submission of construction documents did you repeat that I I'm so sorry Bridget I literally said the word documents and when I'm talking way too fast would the commission consider a condition something along the lines of the applicant shall work uh shall continue to work with HPC staff regarding the visibility of the Dormers prior to the submission of construction documents and that way they can look at their Interiors yeah see if they can pull it back sure I don't I don't see what incentive they would have to to pull it back any further but yes if if the applicant determines um uh that there is additional uh additional shortening that could be achieved I would I would be happy to let staff weigh in on on their on its appropriateness okay anyway thank you for a lovely um application thank you apologies for the confusion yeah and and the windows moving the the the the windows you're adding to the inside and discovering that detail that means everything to us as well I mean that's a big change from a historic preservation point of view so okay are there any other questions comments from the commission okay hearing none uh do you want to move to open public comment okay there any members of the public present tonight who would like to speak regarding this application you can approach the public comment mic staff sees no members of the public approaching the microphone and recommends a motion to open and close public comment motion second second I have sand camp and then I have Gunther all in favor I I right we'll move to staff comments um Austin you kind of summed up all my staff comments right we have a hard building that has sat here for quite some time and needed some attention um and we think that the proposal in front of the commission tonight is a interesting way to address it it really follows um most of the guidance that we've given previous applicants regarding Church Rehabilitation specifically into Residential Properties um and how to most efficiently utilize that space um and we think the applicant is doing that here and as staff we're happy with the application and happy to recommend it for um approval tonight as well as a recommendation to the zoning board for approval as well um we do as usual recommend that you adopt it with conditions um I do have conditions in the staff report we most of them are standard conditions um we do have three additional ones the first is that and I I'm sure the three of you are going to physically be in pain as I say this out loud that the front roof area of the vestri building building is not to be used as a roof deck Andor for leisure purposes um it is not labeled as a roof deck it is not to be used as a roof deck it is you can't do it in a historic district it has to be set back 10t just want to make it super super clear on the record that that is not to be utilized as a roof deck um that all exterior lighting should be downcast in nature and not exceed one foot candle at the property line um the one foot candle comes from the lighting ordinance and then all proposed intercoms or similar installations that may be on the front facade shall only be installed into the mortar joints or um and not the masonry itself um this is something that we have seen kind of pop up on some of these larger multi-unit buildings um if they're not I believe this one has the propos proposed location on the plans um but just to clarify that those are going into the mortar joints and sometimes that requires a slightly larger base on these to make sure we get it into the mortar joints we're okay with that we'll work that out other than that we have standard conditions and the condition that I read into the record are there any questions for staff okay on that note staff recommends a motion to approve the COA with conditions and recommend approval to the zoning Board of adjustment for uh just for the the applicant accepts all the conditions also I have one more thing for the record I did did not do this at the beginning commissioner Gunther you not here at the original presentation of this but you have uh confirmed to me that you have read the uh you have reviewed the video from the last meeting correct okay and you're comfortable with her voting on the application yes absolutely thank you okay that being said if anyone wants to make a motion I'll make a motion second all right [Music] all right uh commissioner sakong hi commissioner Cronin hi commissioner uza I commissioner San Camp I commissioner Gunther hi commissioner gri is absent commissioner blazak is absent Vice chair gucciardo hi and chairman Gordon I right there are seven votes in favor none against and no abstentions the COA and recommendation for approval to the zoning board is approved thank you guys so much this is uh this one was a lot of funk all right so so it's just about 9:00 so I think we have to make a decision about whether we're going to be able to call both the uh remaining cases um it looks to me like we can probably get through the next application within 30 minutes Maggie do you agree yes okay so we'll um we'll try to get through all these CA the new business um we may have to uh stop at some point during 2304 Montgomery if we go to 10 o'clock and carry that one and then so the the what the bylaws say and what the commission's practice is is that we don't start anything new after 9:30 right if we if the commission's comfortable we can if we hit 10:00 while we reviewing 234 we can either wrap it up and carry it or we can finish the hearing the application it's kind it is very much the Chairman's call but I agree with you I think those two cases are the absolute maximum that we will get to this evening yeah I mean don't know Stephen can you turn off that mic are the absolute maximum that we'll get to this evening we always put on here that a curfew of 10 p.m. is strictly adhered to and I would like to strictly adhere that is fine that is the Chairman's decision um all right so that being said um uh yeah that being said so I'm going to call case uh okay so hold on I'm sorry yeah so we're going to carry the demolition case cuz we don't think we're going to get to it and then are we going to take a chance and start 234 yeah we're going to start 234 okay I for what it's worth I do think that we will be able to begin 234 before 9:30 yeah uh which which demo case was it that's remaining was it um the Morris Canal okay so we're not going to get to moris Canal which is b-h 24-1 338 that one is going to have to be carried okay okay so yeah and we'll carry that to the next regularly scheduled meeting which is November 18th very very good all right so calling new business case h23 d163 applicant Steven Joseph Esquire on behalf of Timothy and Roberta carer owners address is 659 Jersey Avenue in the Hamilton Park historic district application is for a certificate of appropriateness for interior renovation and construction of a rear yard Edition at a contributing altered transitional italianate Row House constructed Circa 1870 and this is a recommendation to the Zoning Board of adjustment great good evening Stephen Joseph Cassano quickly trami for the applicant um it's late in the night so we'll try to get right into it this is a rear yard Edition application like this commission has seen many many times um there has been other certificates of no effect that have been approved by HBC and I think um my clients's done a particularly good job with some of those applications let's get our architect sworn in and we'll we'll get through the plans sure so do you swear orir the testimony proceeding will the truth yes the whole truth and nothing about the truth yes I do sorry spell your name Ali kesi Ali is AI kesi is Q Shi Qi yes all right Ali if you I don't want to interrupt sorry Meg I'm accused on this item yes uh and the applicant's comfortable proceeding um Ali if you could just give us uh quickly your educational background how long you've been licensed and confirm your licenses current and in good standing this evening sure uh I have a bachelor's of architecture degree and also Master's of AR architecture degree and I've been um licensed architect in New Jersey since 1996 and your license is current a good standing season yes I would ask the board accept all these qualifications y um the the uh commission accepts uh Mr keshi's uh qualifications as an architect thank you so much Al if you could walk us uh walk us through the plans please um so we are putting a a small addition in in the rear yard let me see if I can work with this you're welcome to look at this if you like on the left you see uh existing conditions uh floor plan it's the uh one level above the the basement level or lower level and in the middle you see the uh floor plan of the middle level with the little addition to the existing kitchen and plus a stair which is going down in the basement on the ground level um maybe I should move to the elevation to explain a little bit more on the left is the existing conditions rear elevation of the building and on the right side is the proposed elevation so the top two floors are have a brick and white Windows which we going to keep and then we're going to use the existing deck on the second level um as a terrorist so the new the railing and the balls will be new on there and the lower two portions um are the one we changed actually it's the first level above the great level which shows the uh um expansion of the existing kitchen and also the stair which is leading to a door to the rear of the house um we have a few samples of the materials we're going to use um can you just give us approximate square footage of the the addition in the in the deck please it's um roughly 60 67 Square ft it sticks out it's uh 15 ft wide by 4T 6 in great and if you want to talk about the materials one by one and then I'll I'll pass around the the S samples we have as you um mentioned them sure so these tall Windows uh tall new windows are going to have um black frame and this whole uh addition is going to to have uh black AAC uh finish and the existing um building on the ground level and the first level is going to be painted with the green paint oh thank you and new door to the first level is going to be the same finish as the existing level uh existing door on the ground level and uh we have this is the tracks for the for the Terrace and and this one is um the railing and the balls and on the lower level we keeping the existing door and the window as it is so the only um new windows are on the ground level where and this will be all tampered glass Ali the uh commissioner is holding up a piece of what I believe is the decking for the for the Terrace area for the it's a floor of the um Second and uh Ali the commissioner is now holding up the railing sample correct yes this will be the railing and the and the balls thank you do we have anything else to add all that conclude your that's pretty much it uh I think this house already went through the historic commission approval for the front facade uh I'm not sure when but it was approved it might that might 2019 yeah um we can get to that during staff comments it's nothing bad just no point talking about it now sounds right can you just um clarify something for me um sure in the on sheet a20 the the um the fascia of the addition uh says the color it the material is meant to be the ASAC panels um colored black um but then when I go to a30 um in the enlarge section it as it's a Hardy plank uh that's the color gray and then the paint sample that's being passed around says it's narit green kind narit green I don't know how to spell Naran it um n a r r a g a n s e t t I was just wondering if you can clarify what's the int what's the design intent so so the I'll have Alli confirmed but the intention is the green there were several changes in the in the color and it looks like it just wasn't the old colors weren't taken off the plan but it's the uh the green is the intent and it's meant to be a a Hardy plank or ASAC or sorry for the addition you mean yeah yes it's it's going to be AAC thank you for the clarification one more thing is for the stair leading to the first level we going to have these kind of recessed lighting so they don't um shine uh light to the neighbors so it's going to be very interacting type of lighting and these will be the the Treads um for the stair on the right hand side sorry that there any other questions comments want to go back on the plans look at anything okay hearing none um should we move to public comment all right if there are any members of the public in attendance who would like to speak regarding this application please approach the public comment mic staff sees none and recommends a motion to open and close public comments motion second right all in favor I go to staff comments quickly all right so um like the applicant and Steven uh Ed to uh the there's been quite a bit of work at this property over the past couple of years um this is really um the only thing the commission has seen because everything else was approved under a cone including a pretty massive facade restoration um that was approved in 2019 um so this is just following in the footsteps of work to this property um adding a small addition to the rear of the property um I will be honest with all of you if this did not require a variance we would have approved it as a cone it is not visible from the public right away it is not increasing uh building coverage because it is stilted um and it follows the existing Paradigm of the block um it is a very small scale addition um that we do not think is going to cause an adverse effect on the historic resource or the historic district and we do recommend that you all approve it um with the conditions in the staff report which are actually just standard conditions okay is anyone have any questions I'll make a motion to approve with condition I'm sorry I just want to say for the record the applicant uh has reviewed and does agree to the standard conditions in the staff report sorry so I'll reiterate my motion to approve with conditions as set forth by staff second okay I'll do a roll call vote commissioner amza I commissioner San Camp I commissioner sakong I commissioner Cronin I commissioner gri is absent commissioner Gunther is Accused commissioner blazak is absent Vice chair guara I and chairman Gordon I there are six votes in favor none against and no extensions the COA with conditions and recommendation to the Zoning Board of adjustment is approved thank you all have a good evening you too good arguably in record time for Motivated taking that curfew real seriously right want to call that next and last case yep uh so this will be new business 9B the case is H-24 d177 applicant is Tom lean Esquire on behalf of 234 Montgomery LLC owner the address being 234 Montgomery Street in the van vorce Park historic district application is for a certificate of appropriateness for the construction of a full height addition front facade restoration and interior renovation of a key contributing fire damaged Greek Revival townhouse constructed Circa 1850 [Music] still loading okay good evening Commissioners uh for the record Tom lean of conell Foley here on behalf of the applicant owner um as stated the application before you is a request for a certificate of appropriateness um for 2 43 Montgomery Street the existing building is a two-story uh two unit building uh however the building was uh extensively damaged uh during a fire uh the owner did come before this board uh seeking a demolition permit which was denied um so the uh applicant has gone back to the drawing board here and uh is proposed in uh to restore the facade and rebuild a rear addition to the building um it would include uh six residential units uh this is a townhouse normally four units would be permitted under our zoning code however they are using the affordable housing overlay which allows them to uh ignore the density standard uh and that increases to six units one of those will be an affordable unit um I do have uh two witnesses this evening Tony aella who's our architect and Bevin Lawson U Mr Lawson is our structural and he does have to uh head home to try and catch a train to Philadelphia I am going to have uh Mr aella sworn in and go over uh the restoration of the facade uh if there are any questions for our structural engineer I would request that they be asked now so he can uh make his train does your does uh he have anything to present or just questions regarding okay um so while you're looking at that I just want to note for record for stuff in the for staff for the commission um in the application materials tonight there was a copy of uh structural plans regarding bracing of the front facade um so that would be what um any questions or in regard to if any of you want to pull it up and just take a look um they did allude to and they did allude to it but we are keeping the front facade of this building similarly to the adjacent building 236 Montgomery um both of those were damaged during a fire so if prior to we us wearing if you guys could just pull that up and take a look um so that we can help him catch his trainess you sure Mr you are yep sir stimon proceeding truuth yes I do sure my name is Antonio iello first name Antonio a n t o n i o last name iello a i e l l o and Mr iello you are licensed as an architect in the state of New Jersey correct I've been registered in the state of New Jersey since March of 2007 and your license is current it is yes have you testified before this board before uh previously not in a long time but yes I'd like to Mr as a expert yep the commission accepts the qualifications of Mr as an architect thank you very much everybody I appreciate your time tonight um I will start with the facade and the facade materials I'm sorry I don't mean to cut you off again I'm just trying to makeing straight any does anyone have any questions on the structural plans okay I for from the staff comments on them were that we agreed with them right and that any changes would have to be reflected in construction documents we all good and okay sounds good thank you thank you sorry to cut you off Tony you're free to go I'm gonna we are doing for the bracing of the structure uh we are providing temporary footings internally and externally in order to provide uh kick kicker steel kickers on an angle to support the facade we are bolting steel members on the inside and outside we're bolting them together through the window opening so that we're not touching any of the brick this way we can maintain the facade as as possible once the rest of the building internally is reconstructed we will be able to uh then remove all of this uh Shoring and structural bracing and leave the the rest of the building intact because it'll be tied back to the to the building as a as a whole um as mentioned this project there was a fire most of the project was damaged we are maintaining the facade from the facade back we are proposing a brand new structure from basement to third floor as well as a small uh bulkhead and roof deck uh facing the rear uh the building is located approximately almost to at the exact middle of the block um has a couple of four sto four and five story structures on one side Church a few doors over to the West um the building itself is only three stories we are maintaining that three stories total um as mentioned six total units the ground floor units will be barrier free um as well as the three-bedroom will accommodate the affordable housing along the rear uh uh rear of the building the rest all two uh two two bedroom units along the back one bedroom Den with a a possible second bedroom along the uh front units uh top floor roof has the small bulkhead which we will pitch in order to minimize um the amount of structure on the roof and then a small deck in the back um here we have the facade the existing and the proposed we're looking to maintain the proposed um the existing facade as much as possible um repairing and repointing the brick the uh lentils and headers new window new wood windows uh throughout all the openings uh the first floor unit uh will have access to the front door as it exists the rest of the building will be accessed from the side we have an existing side yard that exists now uh we will be maintaining and that's where we provide the uh main entrance for the uh rest of the building with the central staircase um the cornice itself is actually very simplistic very small itself uh a majority of the detail is actually the brick um when you look at it if I can zoom in a little more here so you can see it um as you can see here the the this lower portion of the cornice is actually all brick that again we will be repointing rejoining and uh adjusting and correcting as necessary uh and then re finishing and repainting the small cor two-tier cornice section on the on the facade itself you can also see it here in the photos the Cornus itself uh is pretty uh small overall um and creates a nice little reveal in order to provide a shadow line and then the rest of it is all brick work beneath it um see here I have here the the new windows will be uh same as the previous we're going to be doing uh 6 over6 uh wood windows um the rear windows will probably be a different material um and and color the rest of the building the side uh and rear will be a fiber cement Panel System uh with a simple siding and Corner um Corner detail Corner uh trim vertically uh the rear facade will have both windows and a Julia balcony uh for the rear yard access for the first uh for the whole building will be from uh from the side yard as you can see see here from the side elevation we had a cement siding uh on both sides and then create a a hierarchy of where the entrance is and where their staircase will land uh with a cement panel again still the fiber cement non-combustible system um for the uh for the building the rear Julia at balconies will have a cable railing system uh I have here a detail of the gate at the front which will provide access to the building itself um the front facade will have uh a scon light next to the door as well as a small recess light because the door is slightly uh recessed have here additional materials as shown from the material board there then here is the uh diagram showing that the bulkhead is small short enough and pulled back enough that it's not is not fully visible uh from across the street then we have here all our detail for the both the existing and proposed facades uh on the side and front uh brick molding and how we're uh going to be implementing the bricks the windows into the brick system as well as the rest of the facade for the building and then just for everyone's understanding here is the uh structural as as we had uh submitted it where we will be proposing all the steel in line with the window opening so we can bolt through and not touch the uh brick keep it as uh as untouched as possible along the front facade in the back we have a small kicker to stabilize it at the foundation system while we build the uh basement but once the building is framed out and solidified we'll be able to tie in it'll be uh safe and sound all over again and that should conclude my presentation okay are there questions from the commission want to go back and look at something specifically in the plans it's the building you're saying you're maintaining the facade but everything behind the is is new construction that is correct yes what was the building made out out of to begin with uh brick building Stephen is your mic on it's not about hearing it we can all hear you it's just the recording was it a brick building it was a brick building with um M with uh framed Interiors inter so Mike first question is why the Hardy plank sides which are visible from the public right away uh just to differentiate the new structure from the old um we just had a simple siding system so that we could uh rather than carry the brick we wanted to show that that was a new structure going across and then create a different hierarchy at the at the entrance itself with the panels instead of the siding and instead of just replicating the brick not to jump in the the side is wood siding now it's wood clap I thought it was it's wood clap yeah I on the additional images there's like a pretty clear photo where it's uh it's like a 9 in reveal sorry it's it's brick along the the property where it touches the other building I'm sorry about that it's um to the West it's brick to the but that's that's because it's just adjacent to the other structure with the party wall so what I'm trying to get at is uh pre-existing conditions and what your solution is so on the West Wall which was brick you're saying it was brick staying brick only because buds the existing structure I'm sorry sorry so so that's staying brick as previous right and on the east side uh What uh I think um is pointed out that that was already a clapboard wall yes okay then I'm good thank you yeah apologies for that your um your west elevation on sheet a31 in fact shows that return as stucco not brick so um I agree yeah you see that sliver on the to I have it masonry we can uh we can leave it expose uh expose brick rather than uh do brick instead of uh clading it in Stucco I think the brick is the brick is the way to go yes um can you all so I think that that should be an amendment um can you also um just going to write that note on my phone if you don't mind apolog can you also clarify what the material is on the that sort of stair return Zone in the middle uh it's also a fiber cement but it's a panel system rather rather than a siding so we'll be doing a panel system with u with aluminum um reveals got it because again sorry I'm just pointing out I'm just I don't I don't do this just to a jerk I do this because these are you know on the record documents um on a401 on the section um drawing it points it out as scor stucco so again I think um I think a gfrc no that is yeah that should not that should absolutely not be uh stucco that is a pan cement panel correct as for the and what's the color of that you're talking over one another and I cannot get sorry what's the color of the cement panel cement panel I have as a gray slate got the siding and then comp for the uh panel systems got it okay thank you you're welcome so I'm going to chime in on the same topic um that side of that building is about exposed for about 3 feet because the building adjacent to it as you show in your plan is steep back about 3 feet and that 3 feet that's exposed is currently asphalt siding but I don't know what's under it there's probably a historic sighting underneath I don't know if you guys explored is there Maggie did you see something there like so did I see something there no as of Thursday Dan was pretty insistent that was woodsiding I did not make it back out there to confirm myself wait it's wood frame yeah no I meant no like that was wood clap there it could be I did not see it myself I walk by it like every day for a long time it's it's a um um historic asphalt shingle it's probably about a 60-year-old asphalt shingle that looks is made to look like brick um if you look wait I I was about to say that no the current picture now they've Tor they've torn some of the material off you look at the current picture and you zoom in you could clearly see its clapboard okay I think we're talking about two different sides of the building no no we're talking about the same thing the West the West exposure the three or four feet that's of the side of the building that has the asphalt shingles you could see where they are missing yes clearly CL yes correct yes okay so yes like I was saying I didn't know what was under it but there was asphalt shingle and clearly then collabor under it I agree so I guess we're going back to clapboard again I was so certain it was brick but obviously it's is mistaken I mean I personally wouldn't recommend that that wall be clap bir but yeah I think it's perfectly reasonable for that to be a masonry wall considering it's a party wall and we can address the historic material on the other exposed visible R of way could be a good compromise it makes sense yes I wasn't trying to suggest what it should be I was only saying what it was yes and we can add a condition to have the plans be revised to reflect the current materials [Music] are there any other Yeah Yeah question about the gate that gives you access to the rest of the units yes um could you just it looks like there's a mesh over it or some other kind of material it's not just a RW Iron Gate yes it's a steel frame with a with a steel mesh uh that we're proposing on that one uh just for uh safety purposes so somebody can't reach in and unlock it it you know for a historic facade it looks quite industrial is there any way that it could at least have a have some historic treatment um yeah we can definitely look into and still provide the security that you're looking for sure the the reasoning behind this was because it it um it was proposed for the for the new use of the building so we were proposing a new uh more of a newer look for the uh for for the gate itself but we have no problems uh redesigning it to show more something more historic something more uh you know in tune with what you would see for the railings let's say absolutely absolutely and the bulkhead at that's that's depicted in the drawings that's not visible from the public right of way uh from across the street it's not visible it's it's only uh 9 ft tall and it's set back approximately uh let me see if I have that Dimension bear with me I do not but it's centered on the building so it's uh easily 25 26 feet back from the front facade mhm thank you you're welome are there additional comments questions want to look at any part of the plans um the facade door surround are you using the the existing we're going to be doing a new door to to match the existing you're going to match the existing and it would be wood as well absolutely yes okay thank you are your 6 over six wood windows in the front uh are they true divided will they be true divided or will they have grills on them um we were going to do grills and the grills would be where on the interior of the window or the exterior um I think they're posing it on the exterior we're only approving them on the exterior yeah I'm just going to we don't do interior grills okay I'm sorry what was the conclusion of that we don't do interior grills so no sometimes the grills are between the pan yeah but then we'll have the applied simulated on top of that as well yeah okay I do have one question on the side where the return is and we're uh looking to do masonry if we do have to go with masonry are we permitted to use a thin brick only so that we're not encroaching onto somebody else's property if so are you on the property line where use of a full brick would push you over the property line I I we have approved the commission has approved a thin brick on non- Primary facades in that instance before um and in this yeah thank you in this case staff would be okay with that that is the only scenario we've really ever permitted thin brick right any other questions do we want to open public there any members of the public present who would like to speak regarding this application okay staff sees no members of the public present and recommends a motion to open and close public comment motion second all in favor I okay we want move into staff comments on this okay so um like the applicant stated this is essentially a continued case from the demolition hearing that we had last summer um following the fire that occurred at this building and spread to 236 um we were able to and I say we because it was the city um were able to stabilize the facade of this building in 236 so that they could be reincorporated into a future development which is exactly what we see here um we are for lack of a better term fortunate that there while we did lose the vast majority of this building this front facade does have a significant amount of historic fabric on it that makes the retention and restoration of elements of this facade relatively straightforward right we have the door frame we have the windows like right we can this is in staff's perspective relatively straightforward um the rest of the building is uh consistent with the bulk standards for the historic district which is why the applicant is able to use the affordable housing overlay in this sense um this is the first application the commission has seen with the affordable housing overlay um but it is essentially what they described right you um throw out the density standard provided that you are following standards um set in the affordable housing overlay to provide affordable housing in this case they were able to fit six units in here with one of the units being an affordable unit um all of that the specifics there are worked out with the division of affordable housing set in a contract or agreement that um they will work out with the applicant um we do have it in conditions that if something changes on this building as a result of that they will have to come back kind of like how we treat a franchise ordinance right when we've had applications come to us where they need to get a franchise ordinance a franchise agreement through ordinance something changes they have to come back to us and we're going to treat this the same way um that being said we don't think that there's going to be an adverse effect on the character of The District or the resource as a result of approving this application um and we do recommend that the commission approve a COA with conditions um so we have conditions that were read in right into the record we have conditions in the staff report most of them are standard conditions there are a couple um that we did add so the first is that the applicant shall work with HPC staff to retain and possibly reuse the existing historic wlap siding on the Eastern facade of the building where feasible I do not I I will just note I do not necessarily think that this is feasible right the the building was pretty significantly fire damaged um we're going to see what we can recover if not we're going to match the reveal to make sure that we're at least keeping it visually consistent um the second one that we added is that front roof deck on this um Tony can you just go to the floor plan with the roof deck really quick absolutely um so yeah perfect so this front roof deck here we you can see on the front uh North the street facing side of that Center staircase is being used for mechanical purposes and we are just adding a condition that it is not to be used for leisure purposes right they technically do have enough space where they could set something back 10 ft they elected to put it on the back of that staircase which I'm sure their neighbors are very thankful for but that means that without HPC approval we can't use the front side of that roof for leisure purposes without coming back to the board um and then we have the condition that were spoken about um so I I kind of summed the two up as a the applicant shall revised the plans to accurately reflect the current and proposed materials for the building including but not limited to the eastern and western facades so we'll get those revised for construction documents to reflect the current condition and proposed condition with um some combination of thin brick and masonry on the uh Western facade which is that party wall and then reflect accurate materials on that are being proposed for the building on the Eastern facade are there any questions for staff what was your um take on on my recommendation about readdressing the Gate entrance um that's fine I so we do typically see more modern gates in this scenario proposed um this one is more industrial than we typically see um I don't think we should create a historic gate typically we just more most commonly we see just a straight linear bar with um kind of like a half circle mesh around where that handle is so no one can reach through um that's the most typical condition but if you guys would like to come up with something other than that I just want to make sure is it more of a perforated metal and not a mesh yeah it's more of a perforated metal yes I think meshes yeah that is that is correct then that's a good distinction thank you yeah okay good with that yeah okay at your discretion yeah sure um and all of that would be ref would be expected to be reflected at the of the on the construction documents we're going to put the BL in the transcript I've done it so many times tonight I'm running him any all right are there any other questions for I I had a question about um it's for the architect I I only see one EEG stare is there a reason why there's only one one egress stair required the only one is required um you're only required one ER stair for buildings that are three stories or under and less than four units per floor what's the likelihood of another fire right less what is it three units stories or less and four less and four units or less per floor so you can technically do a 12 unit building three stories tall with a single exit W the the the first unit in the front technically has two yes technically they all have two because it's a three-story building by the fire department it is considered a second means Through the Windows because they will have uh egress siiz windows on the front and rear and the side yard actually helps us with that with the emergencies for somebody to be able to go in the back and uh access um people in danger uh via ladder okay okay comes motion to before motion does the applicant accept the conditions yes I was just about to say I did's October 21st memo and we accept the conditions within and also put on the record last time third time the charm motion to approve uh COA with uh conditions as set out by staff second okay I have commissioner commissioner Gunther right I think the only one I haven't started with uh commissioner Gunther I commissioner samp hi commissioner uza I commissioner sakong I commissioner griga is absent commissioner blazak is absent commissioner Cronin I Vice chair gucciardo I and chairman Gordon I right there's seven votes in favor none against and no extensions the COA with conditions is approved thank you so much everybody I really appreciate you call take care all right um moving on on the agenda to wrap us up before curfew um I mean we wouldn't have been able to start the other one anyway uh for tabled cases uh 26 24 um is making Kennedy is making some revisions to the plans I have not seen them yet you guys have not seen them yet um but they are making some revisions to the plans after meeting again with the local neighborhood associations um they're anticipating being on the November meeting um I hope for everyone they're on the November meeting because they've been this Temple bethl no this is well I'm on tabled cases so this is 2624 Temple bethl will also be on the November meeting barring a request to Carri again um but they had all of their new materials are uploaded on the portal if anyone you know wants to take a look before testimony already there to look at mhm okay yeah they were we were anticipating them being heard at this meeting but they requested to carry the application this afternoon um and yeah we have the carry demo cases um both of which carried the November meeting we'll see I I I don't have a great idea moris Canal will definitely be heard in November um yeah and then other than that we don't have resolutions to introduce or discuss we don't have resol solutions to memorialize we don't need an executive session I you know I just wanted to ask wasn't the convention that I recall that um someone would make a motion to approve with conditions and then the applicant would be asked if they agreed to the conditions I just wanted to avoid confusion no yeah that is typically um how we have handled it in the past however them stating on the record prior that they accept them is not as long as we have finalized the condition it's okay yeah Mr Joseph is very enthusiastic about the conditions I know he is I'd rather them be enthusiastic than begrudgingly accept the conditions yeah all right all right uh that being said the only thing we have left to do is adjourn motion motion all right we have a motion we have a second it is 946 all in favor I I