public meetings act I would like to call this meeting to order Eric Beasley are there any Sunshine announcements to share with us in accordance with the open public meetings act um notice has been provided
to Bergen records um LS bito as well as posted with the city clerk thank you can you please take roll call yes I see commissioner Baron commissioner Bole here commissioner
Patel here commissioner shadid yes commissioner Allen yeah commissioner Burns here Commissioners zi Vice chair Ru here and chair coil
present we have a quorum thank you can we all please stand for the flag salute I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with
liberty and justice for all Iris do we have any staff that need to be sworn in or Eric staff to be sworn in okay Eric is there any correspondence that you need to share with us I do not have any correspondence
okay okay um so as I mentioned this is a special meeting in order for for us to hear case z20 d43 uh in reference to 2011 Newark Avenue um I have a few announcements just to make is that um going forward
tonight will not be the situation uh meetings will end about 9:45 due to uh security being leaving the building at 10:00 but tonight they will be remaining um so we can continue this evening and our next meeting and meetings going
forward will begin at 6:00 due to the fact that we have to end by 9:45 um so at this time um if we could please um present um whose side are we going to start with Mr
um Vinnie who do you think Mr Harrington or I believe okay have okay okay okay great wait uh we can't hear you an can
you get to a microphone um laptop to plug in for exhibits and does he have copies of exhibits to hand in I I don't have any copies but I have or Gabby Gabby has copies Gabby has copies and then I have the exhibits on my laptop that I to show okay
so hello so does the laptop plug in somehow to that to this thing yeah let's see if this works this is the airport isn't it oh it's the Gia
theia okay take you like $50 okay are we ready are we ready you set okay thank you very much okay great thank you okay Mr simoff you also have I believe coffe I
do uh Benjamin simov b n j a m i n s i m f thank you okay and I believe you have copies of your CV right yeah I have a few copies here I can I have a copy for two and
for so Mr simoff I'm just gonna as we discuss walk you through your qualifications uh could you tell me I don't know if your mic is on okay okay that's that's on did we turn off the yeah my computer turned we turned off the the feed yeah let's see
if it comes back somehow apologies okay um what I'd like you to do is just tell the board about your education uh your lure and just highlights of your work experience okay and then we're g get into why it is
specifically you who are standing here tonight that'll be my next question okay so I graduated from Columbia University in the city of New York with a bachelor's in science and civil engineering um and then I subsequently went to New York University where I got a master's in Business Administration um I am a licensed
professional engineer in the state of New Jersey and I have extensive work experience with the rfba Group mv5 Incorporated uh in New York City as well as with simoff Engineering in uh in New
Jersey and um I for him based on that as a expert if you'd like to hear about towns that he's worked in I'm happy to have him recite those also they're on the CV that I provided to Mr Harrington I seen that CV but Simone is it sim off
Sim so you you've testified before as an expert yes I've been qualified as an expert before your LIC current yes it is we'll accept and so um as a board heard he mentioned simoff engineering um his
father H Sim off uh is someone that I've worked with and I reached out to Hal and then your dad said well so yeah and my father told an that uh that uh in the words of my
father my son lives a few blocks away from the site that you're talking about and he's still an engineer even though that's not necessarily his day job I'm going to give him a call and uh see if he'll take the job and so could you tell the board where you live and their street address maybe enough you guys may
know it I wouldn't be able to place I I live at 120 York Street so the corner of York and Warren and councilman Solomon's District yeah okay okay so right there right next to St Peter's prep and can you tell us were you familiar in general with the outlines of this project this
application before becoming involved as a professional yeah I actually saw the rendering in the Jersey Journal uh I was a print subscriber until very recently uh it's the paper is no longer in circulation but I saw it in the paper and I thought that it looked really nice
and I I was actually for it just seeing the rendering and I think we we all agree it's you know a great project the the legal question as I know you understand is the location highly location specific can you tell us just in general uh your impression as you
started to look into some of the facts related to this application and specifically given your line of expertise what those facts were yes so when you asked me to take a closer look at this application right because before I was just familiar with it just seeing it in the paper and you know generally
being pro uh you I'm typically I for exciting things happening in Jersey City um but you asked me to take a closer look at the application and once I took a deeper look I thought that there were some real problems with the site plan and the traffic circulation specifically
um and I think that the applicant actually didn't perform a full analysis that would incorporate all of the factors uh required to do a complete understanding of what the traffic impact would be and I don't think that they could adequately say that there would be
no significant impact associated with this project and could you now describe what those factors are and why they lead you to your conclusion yes so there was there were a few factors that I that I saw that stood that stand out to me there's the data collection there's the
actual traffic analysis uh and then there's the Civil site plan right just looking at the site plan and so we can just go through all all the points that I that I that I found and so in the plan and also in the applicants testimony
they do a lot of U they devote a lot of time to talking about pedestrian uh pedestrian flows it's a very uh busy pedestrian area as well as extensive public transportation access but the traffic analysis and the data collection
didn't incorporate pedest estan and they didn't break out buses in the analysis right so typically for locations like this you would in you would include uh pedestrian counts at the intersections as well as bus blockages right we all
know that uh when a bus stops at an intersection right you block the traffic flow and when pedestrians cross an intersection they they also block the traffic flow right so those factors weren't incorporated into the analysis and so those factors have to do with
queuing rapidity with which the intersection will clear any yeah so the level of service that was in the report won't accurately reflect uh all of these uh additional factors right so the queuing would be worse the level of
service would be worse um and just the the general functioning of the intersections around there would would not be uh it wouldn't be a holistic view of that of the talk a little bit about how the intersections are interdepend well so that's another point that I
noticed in the analysis is that each of the intersections was analyzed independently right like as an independent Island basically right and so anybody who's been down to that inter excuse me down to uh down to the site we'll see right like the so this if you
look at the exhibit here we're looking at Maxwell Street facing north and you see that right the as traffic is queuing at new Yark Avenue the queue backs up like the the cars back up into New York excuse me into Maxwell Street but the
analysis didn't incorporate these spillover cues into the Maxwell Street analysis so so in the report it says Maxwell Street operates at a level of service a right which means free flowing traffic when we can see from the image uh from the exhibit that's not
true and would you say the same if Maxwell Street itself were more heavily trafficked um would that cause queuing on Jersey Avenue southbound potentially absolutely and
back up again towards the Newark intersection absolutely yeah there would be cues I uh you can see oh in one of the other exhibits that I have right the southbound cues this is facing southbound at new um excuse me at Maxwell Street um right you can see that
the cues are extensive and are not incorporated into the analysis at all um I know you're going to talk about bus turning radius and the possibility that the Stop Bar on Jersey Avenue Northbound would have to be moved and that that
might impact Columbus Avenue can you talk about that a little bit Yeah so one of the aspects that I noticed here in the site plan is I'm going to pull up right if we can see here this is the
um this is the I believe it's the circular plan from the from the applicant uh plan set that was submitted um and I'll I'll get to the I'll get to the Turning template that's on just I ask you for a couple things yes would would you describe for the board if there's anything on here that you added
please describe that oh absolutely so if you look at the dark black lines at the center of the of New York Avenue and Jersey Avenue these are the yellow line so the center lines the yellow lines that were taken from the aerial that you find on online and the Stop and you can
see that the uh Stop Bar at Jersey Avenue in New York that the um looks vertical to your on your screen is the Stop Bar that was taken from the you know the thick white line the Stop Bar that was taken from the aial as well and
so I don't know if you have an illustration about the point about the bus turn or if you want to describe it off of this illustration well I I have the in the submission there's the bus turning U I don't have it uh handy here but there
but you can you'll be able to see that the as the buses turn from New York Avenue onto Jersey they have to go across that Center Line there on Jersey Avenue and would be sweet the bus would be swinging into oncoming traffic and so as a result the Stop Bar would have to be moved back on Jersey Avenue moved
southbound towards Columbus and as we saw before that there's already extensive queuing on Jersey Avenue northbound and that by pushing the Stop Bar South a few Vehicles it would be about two or three vehicles that the the queuing would be exacerbated and would
be be um would back up into Columbus Avenue even or col Columbus Boulevard even more frequently than it already is is there anything else you'd like to say specifically about Newark and Jersey until before we move into Maxwell the
um there's if you look and you can see this in in this plan one of the things oh sorry about that one of the things that makes me a little uncomfortable and I I with this site plan is that there are it's indicated that the existing
signals are to remain let's see if it comes back apologies if you if you look at the circulation plan let's see I I can see the two little uh handicap ramps I think they
are right at the corner there yes you you're showing one with your arrow and then there's two little arrow heads that I think are pointing to those signal poles right so there's it says signal pole imped signal to remain and this it's remaining at the existing
location and even though the sidewalk is being expanded into in into Jersey Avenue and into newk New York Avenue uh signal posts are to remain and I it makes me uncomfortable seeing it so far from the curb and can you say why it makes your
oh because in typically according to the manual uniform traffic control devices the the signal poles need to be within the line of sight of the drivers and the pedestrians that are using those poles um and just looking at it from my
perspective I'm not sure if that's necessarily true that that someone traveling for example East on Newark or north on Jersey might not see the signal because it's out of the line of where they normally would be expecting exactly it would be out of the line of
sight um if there's anything else about that General intersection um you know I'm asking you if to to to further uh explain it and otherwise we'll move on to Maxwell yeah I I think I think that's
all for the for for the actual site plan on on New York and Jersey so you've familiarized yourself with the transcripts and the the videos of the record up till now yes correct and so the truck turning radius that's shown on here the bus turning is not we have to
imagine it but the truck turning is that was drawn by the applicant am I correct about that the truck turning there's a little bit of the truck turning that was drawn by the applicant the so this drawing that I have here is is a it's an
augmentation of what the applicant submitted okay right describe right so if you look in the plan set that the applicant submitted there's they demonstrate how a box truck can pull into the driveway off of Maxwell Street but they don't show how a box truck can
pull from Jersey Avenue on into Maxwell Street and I was curious to see what that looked like if that was possible and it it seems that it is how however the box truck would be mounting you see
this outline here this would be like the sweep here so the box truck would be mounting the curb and going above Over The Pedestrian ramp and onto Maxwell Street are you
familiar with the testimony about what I understand from Mr Harington is a staff's request that there be ballards because it is proposed that the pavement on Maxwell will have the same level as the
sidewalks yes I've seen that the testimony that it would be a complete Street and you're familiar that there was some uh testimony from the applicants traffic engineer that they might be able to do ballards um closer
towards Jersey but they would not be able to put them nearer to the entrance to the garage because it would impede the Turning are you familiar with that testimony yes I'm familiar with that and does your illustration here show that they really aren't going to be able to put
ballards I over at near the near the intersection The Pedestrian intersection with Jersey also I don't see how a baller how ballards could be placed in there and and well- maintaining appropriate with uh right away for the trucks to make to make deliveries uh can
you also talk a little bit about um The applicant's Proposal that service Vehicles will trucks s30 trucks or s30 s30 um will turn frontways into the service Bay there but then back
out back towards Jersey yeah I I'm and I I saw in the testimony it said that uh there would be a valet employee who would help the truck back out which is a very novel method of ensuring that deliveries
can come and go is it something that valet drivers normally do not to my knowledge now um do you think this creates a potentially dangerous situation for the pedestrians well it absolutely because if you notice the the vehicle the driver will not be able to see back into Maxwell Street they cannot
see behind them they would be backing up blindly and I I think that goes against the very nature of a complete street right a complete street is supposed to be a Haven for pedestrians and occasional use of vehicles but it shouldn't be right we all know what you know like the New York Avenue pedestrian
pla how pleasant that can be to walk around right but this is not or at at Barrow Street like Barrow in Newark right you're going I believe it's north on Barrow and you can get you you sometimes mingle with traffic but you don't really worry about that right as a pedestrian but if I was a pedestrian walking on Maxwell Street that that
would be certainly a concern of mine do you have and I apologize I can't remember it was you Mr St any concerns about the handicap space the um turntable uh the maneuvering of essentially the passenger cars within the proposed garage and I don't think
that was I don't think that was me but it is extraordinarily tight okay and Peter is raising his hand so um and we have so that's your that's that's that's your professional View and then Peter will elaborate on that um you did
also raise an issue um with the drop off and pickup of the proposed valet parking um we've already talked about how it really only is suitable for one car at a time um but
you raised another issue with it that I'd like you to let the board know what you thought yeah so as you can see right when a truck is making a delivery and the valet can't come and go right so um that especially if the there's I guess there's two points that I want to make here if the applicant is suggesting that
there will be events happening and there will be Peaks right like ever everyone is leaving an event at one time uh or arriving at one time it's it's going to be and if there happens to be a delivery I mean that I don't understand how that would work and then secondly if there's
when as hotels or as Hotel guests would be leaving and getting their cars the valet in order to bring the car around the front to Newark Avenue would have to I'm going to do this from memory so would have to turn go on Maxwell Street
left on Kohl's which is because Kohl's is a oneway street is a oneway street right on Columbus I believe right on left yeah I think the so the route to take to get back to the the south curb on New York Avenue is extraordinarily
long uh I believe it's and it I think it would be on Mammoth and then turn right on first off of Mammoth and then back onto New York it would it's a long trip it's a long trip and is that the problem because if the valet uh drove on Maxwell turned left on Cole turned left again on
Columbus turned left again on Jersey turned left again on nework basically circling the block they'd be on the wrong side of New York yeah they would be on the far side of New York right so to bring the car to the hotel curb that's when they have to go all the way over to Mammoth or some other route that's uh it's quite far and there's
something about Mammoth also that I wanted you to let the board uh anybody who's driven in this neighborhood uh on Sunday afternoons knows that Mammoth is absolutely gridlocked for Tunnel traffic or you know on weekday afternoons evenings going into the city so I it's it it's not
it's not an ideal route for valet to be returning cars to put to guests um so you have and again you've given your your address I know you pointed out to me the Marriott parking garage which I
believe and Mr Harrington will correct me if I'm wrong is where the applicant proposes to shuttle event Parkers from um do you have thoughts as to whether that would or would not
appropriately resolve any concerns about events overcrowding um the neighborhood with people looking to park with valets queuing to park cars it may alleviate but uh without seeing an actual parking
analysis done of the Marriot I don't know what the occupancy is like uh on a regular basis it's hard to say that the parking there could be an adequate overflow um do you know of any provisions that the applicant has made to um ensure that
he would always be able to have access to those Marriot spaces no no I and I don't I haven't seen a shared parking agreement or anything like that would you need to see something like that in order to say that yes that would be that would resolve the Overflow problem that everyone including the applicant himself
has candidly acknowledged events would cause yeah absolutely okay um uh you mentioned a fire hydrant can you mention that not yet so one of the things that if you notice here the as the truck is turning onto Maxwell Street right where
it's driving over the corner of the curb here like pretty significantly so and one thing that I noticed that's missing from the survey ah is let's see
sorry you see you see that so there's a fire hydrant that's not on the survey and so in order for a truck to make that turn onto Maxwell Street they would have to uh they they would have to drive over the fire hydrant or
they would the fire hydrant would have to be relocated in order to accommodate that movement um city bike station yeah the so the city bike station uh it's it says that it's to be to remain but the the crowding on the
sidewalk would be significant I believe the testimony is that it might be slightly shifted so as to create a a check a choke point that's only 5T between the proposed uh seating area within uh the city-owned um sidewalk
easement and the bike station would they have to shrink the bike station would they be able to leave the bike station is that something I mean 5T is the adaa minimum and it's the but and could you you just said the Ada minimum American of the American
Disabilities Act requires a 5 foot clear way for um for people traveling on the sidewalk to accommodate people with disabilities and is there anything else about The Pedestrian circulation here that the narrowing of the sidewalk I
know it's wider in one area but the narrowing of the sidewalk would impede in terms of safety and I think that at this corner here at Maxwell Maxwell and Jersey is where the sight distances would be very important to uh to take into account for these pedestrians right
as these as they narrow here at the side at the corner right if there's trucks backing out of Maxwell or there's trucks turning from Jersey onto Maxwell uh that they should be taken into consideration and so I'd just like you to sum up your conclusions for the board
on this yeah so as I said before when I first saw this I was when I first saw the plan for the albon I was excited about it but then as I took a closer look there's some real problems here with the analysis right they that there's no pedestrian or bus analysis in
the in the um in the applicant's traffic analysis there's the and then also the the analysis is lacking in that it didn't take into account the fact that nework and Maxwell streets are very close together on Jersey Avenue and they
need to operate they need to be analyzed together as a unit as a system and they weren't uh so the the full effects of the of the proposed development weren taken into consideration in the analysis then there's also the bus turning from
Newark Avenue onto Jersey would require changes in the striping that would then in the excuse me in the in the lines drawn on the road uh in order and that would also adversely affect the uh the traffic operation at this intersection then there's the issues
with Maxwell Street the narrow clearance and the inability of a driver who's making a delivery on Maxwell Street to pull in and out without serious safety considerations for pedestrians that are also using Maxwell Street um and then also the Turning action from Jersey
Avenue onto Maxwell Street how that uh would the the truck would necessarily have to mount the sidewalk and then then that's something that hasn't been taken into consideration as well as the fire hydrant that's missing from the survey
okay and then also the and then also the the traffic signals to remain at the intersection of the southwest corner of Newark and Jersey um are quite far away from the curb and I think there needs to be additional analysis done to ensure that
those signals are still in the line of sight for drivers and pedestrians at that intersection okay thank you very much I've got nothing further with this time it'll be up to Mr Harrington might have some redirect Mr Harrington um do you want now you want
to wait for the plan up to you right if you'd like to right now or questions okay um Mr sim off um how you doing tonight hello um so just have a
few questions here um and just to be clear you were from what I understand you were you were before the project until you were against it right and and is did that happen after you were retained it happened after I was asked
to take a closer look right right after you were retained no that's not what he said okay so um excuse me I I apologize you just mischaracterized what he said I know it wasn't intentional but an an let
him finish please sit down understood okay we can make their own conclusions um you talked about the buses and and issues with the buses at on norc Avenue um can you speak into the mic is it not working now it's on hello
so you spoke about the the buses along norc Avenue um is there going to be an increase in buses for that that we don't know about I'm not sure uh if the new if New Jersey Transit plans to increase the increase the bus frequency right but
this project is not going to change any condition with buses going up and down norc Avenue correct no but the analysis didn't incorporate an accurate representation of the existing conditions okay and you
didn't do any independent reporter analysis correct like there's there's no report I have not written a report for this no okay and uh you spoke about uh issues you had
with um the Stop Bar on Jersey Avenue is is in your experience as as a Traffic Engineers is is that something if it were an issue is that something that the city engineer and Traffic Engineers would
address in my experience if there's a change in if there's a site plan that requires a variance that typically that variance would also include a proposed striping plan for the intersection or there if they were making changes to the curb that they would also include a striping plan and
you're aware that these plans that are before the board tonight were sent to the Jersey City engineers and the Jersey City Traffic Engineers are are you aware of that I'm aware of that yes okay and you're aware that a comment letter was issued on behalf of the Jersey City
traffic department and the Jersey City Engineers correct yes okay and and then I guess you're aware that there were no comments from the Jersey City traffic or engineering department with regard to those issues is that
correct yes okay same let me ask about the the the signal that you you have concerns with um I guess do you have any experience in in uh in designing traffic signals yes okay
in New Jersey yes okay so that traffic signal that you speak of does that face north south or east west I believe it's a signal arm that faces north south I believe we can look at the exhibit if you'd like right so so
if you're driving down Nork Avenue you're not going to be looking at that signal because it faces north south correct but there's also the pedestrians that need to be considered but is is it
correct yes you're correct okay so the location of that signal if you're going uh the other way you're you're going to be able to see it clearly right if you're traveling on Jersey Avenue likely yes yes
okay and again is that something that in your experience uh is is covered by the jerse the municipal engineering department if they see an issue yeah if they review a plan and find that something needs to be changed they'll typically make a comment right it's not
typically a developer that's going to move traffic signals uh independently correct it usually would be con current with the change in curbs okay and let me see you have you said you
have an issue with the um the backing up into Maxwell um and if could could you tell me again why why that that's an issue if the truck is going to back up into Maxwell to to to leave I think if they're blindly backing
up onto a complete street that and especially one where there's a significant amount of pedestrian activity it's an unsafe situation it's an unsafe Arrangement okay and are you aware that the uh the plan of operation is to have the valet
operators go into Maxwell Street and make sure that that it's clear to back up yeah I mentioned that in my testimony okay and are you aware of the saffron uh garage uh I'm aware that it's next door yes okay and and are you aware if they
have deliveries within the saffron garage for the commercial uh spaces no I'm not aware of that okay are are you aware if they bring when when people move in and move out are you aware of if trucks move into
uh turn into that garage no I'm not okay so is it safe to say you're not aware of where the commercial uh SPAC is in the s afron
receive their deliveries I don't know if they're on nework or if they're on Maxwell no okay and uh you talk about the the drop off on norc Avenue that it's it's a long route to get back to the hotel that's
that's your analysis right yes okay is why is that an issue you're adding additional traffic onto the adjacent streets well if that haven't been hasn't been adequately incorporated into the analysis it's not an additional traffic it's the same car it just take longer to
get there right you're you're still going through more intersections but it doesn't add any additional vehicle correct the same car will be driving on the street for longer
okay and uh just regard to you you you touched upon the the garage at I I you referred to it I believe as the Marriott garage I refer to as 50 Columbus um are we talking about the same garage that's right okay and and
you uh is it is it your understanding that's that's a public garage I don't know if it's open for the public or just for Marriott customers so you live a few blocks away they I do haven't seen those signs that that for
for parking there for the public is that for 50 Columbus or is that the one in front of 70 between 70 and 90 well maybe maybe the question is it's fair to say you don't you don't know if it's a public garage or not I know the garage
above the Base gym is public if if that's the same marot that the applicant suggests parking their overflow in then that is a public garage okay because so the because 50 70 and 90 are all
one uh like bulk unit basically right they're all one landlord they're all connected together on the inside right and and that garage Services all of those buildings correct I believe so yes okay but as a public garage anyone can park there yes that's right so you could park
there and you could have the a hotel shuttle pick you up right yeah yeah yeah quite honestly you don't even need an agreement to do that with the hotel correct no I think that's that's all the
questions I have for Mr simoff but I I do I don't know if you I I would like to bring Mr Seer up in rebuttal to maybe address some of the questions or some of the points if that's that's okay or would you want to wait right
finishes her oh her redir redirect right redirect okay that's fine understood yeah I just have one more question for you on redirect um as for the public Hotel um I understand you're not an attorney correct no I'm not just
married to one I know are you are you experienced with how parking garages that were part of Redevelopment plans are constrained in terms of allocating other commercial users to their public spaces absolutely I've done many
projects where there even though it's a public lot there's explicit agreements about shared parking um right so typically like um churches right that will share parking with restaurants because they have different peak hours right that's typically like and they
expressly put it that they're um in the patrons of each establishment are permitted to use the parking lot of the other and that's usually explicitly written down and then filed with the town I did so in Westport Connecticut for example okay great thank you very much that's all I have for the moment I
don't know if any of the members the we'll we'll hold out questions till the end okay thank you is a defined number two the entertainment space is a little under 4,000 so I don't know how you
get it's all if you look at the just it's not looking so it's fine okay that's fine I'm going to swap his um if you have do you have any
written exib so do you activate by screen yes but it hasn't it hasn't popped up yet okay you just double check see if it's uh fully fully inserted
please okay let's try that again I invite you to this dle is mine you I do my name is petwood okay thank you very much and did we
we and and you sore Mr simoff Right while I was talking to Mr okay um are you guys familiar with Mr St can you accept him without going through all of his okay um my license okay so this is um you know
Peter doesn't need introduction or leading from me um he gave me his outline he does need a question and I would I would like to say could you please describe the property your understanding of the application
and what you've been asked to analyze so my Cent is the saffron of myari in surrounding area I'll put up and I'll first just describe what it is and then when I testify I'll
go through it in a little more detail let's see so um this is an 11 page exhibit it was prepared by me and it's dated February 27th uh today and I'll just briefly run through it um on the upper
right hand corner I have P1 through P11 so the first one is an aerial photograph and the uh portion of the zoning map uh the second one are photographs that were uh taken by me on August 13th of last
year and I believe they accurately depict the existing conditions uh the next photograph are additional photographs taken by me on August 13th uh of uh the saffron building and
the view from the top of that building uh the next one is a composite of a uh a view plan prepared by the applicants architect as well as a panorama that I
took on the lower level uh reproducing at least in a panorama VI uh Viewpoint uh what will be blocked from the rooftop uh the fifth one is a rendition of the building where I show what is
being proposed versus uh what is allowed in the ordinance uh the next one has a similar view uh with a concentration on the relationship of the new building to the
saffron building buing I then uh did a St study of building Heights in the immediate area uh the next page uh there was a lot of discussion about the Redevelopment plan uh that's across Jersey Avenue and
I wanted to go into that to tell you uh remind you what is uh permitted in in that plan uh nine is a broader view of that Redevelopment area that is uh on the other side of uh Jersey
Avenue uh I have a portion of your master plan uh on P10 the 10th page and finally I have a uh rendition of where the nc1 zone is as well as the the lot
pattern so let me back up um the best one I guess to keep here is maybe a P5 for the moment uh I know the board is from familiar with this maybe more familiar than it wants to be but I I want to lay some foundation for my
testimony uh this is a lot that has three frontages it's a little over 13,000 Square ft uh it has a vacant uh Capital One Bank building uh with a drive-thru in
the rear uh that has been closed uh for a period of time so that curb cut on Newark isn't used the drive through isn't used it's it's fenced off uh this is not designated as a historic
building uh in Jersey City it's not designated as historic by the state of New Jersey and the njde website uh does not indicate that it's eligible for designation as a historic
building uh you are familiar with the application but I want to recast it um as as I look at it as you know um there is a restaurant component of this building on the uh I
guess I'll call it the elevated ground floor with 180 seats as you know the applicant wants to extend the building onto the public sidewalk that's that's permanent construction this is not putting out tables in good weather the
applicant wants to construct part of the building on public property uh the applicant is uh talks about the building as having uh a nice look a historic look uh they happen to
be saving one of the windows uh the others are all being altered um as I scale the plans the distance between the deck for the restaurant and the relocated City bike
area is only about 5T so it's a per fairly narrow area and what's kind of uncomfortable is that if you can picture this people are going to be sitting um on this deck eating outside and
pedestrians are going to look right at their knees as you're walking down so it's not like they're at the same level of pedestrians they're elevated so you get to look at you know what their belts are or whatever
um this is a hotel with 72 rooms uh but one component of this is an entertainment space that's on at least two floors if you recall there's going to be a theater there's going to be assembly areas so this is and they can
operate independent of the hotel so they're really three uses here there's a restaurant there's a hotel and then there's a substant anal entertainment component of this the applicant is proposing 39
parking spaces in a very contorted Arrangement as you as indicated earlier um there is a uh an entrance door on Maxwell and as you know Maxwell is very
narrow um the pavement width is about 10 1/2 ft and um in the saffron building there's an exit there's a a door there but you go in and you can turn around and you can leave going
frontwards um in the proposed building and by the way the saffron loads on Newark Avenue they don't load in the garage um this building uh the applicant is saying well we don't have a designated
loading space but the trucks will move in and the answer is they have to back out onto Maxwell which is a narrow width of RightWay and a narrow pavement area uh if you look at the plans and the
handicap spaces one is on the seems to be on the turntable that also brings you down to a lower level so I don't know how you reserve a moving handicap spot I don't know if that complies with the law um the applicant is you know
extending the curb cut at the corner of Newark Avenue and Jersey Avenue uh and that's even though maybe the number of buses isn't going to change but the track that the buses have to take uh will change uh because there's an expanded radius and as indicated by Mr
simoff uh that bus has to cross the yellow line in the middle to get around uh not shown on the plans is where you're going to exhaust cost uh this parking garage because it's an enclosed garage so you got to aate it
and the plans don't show where you're going to blow uh that uh uh pollution from the cars but it's mandated in an enclosed garage to have a a fan um and also obviously for the for the kitchen equipment we're not it's not quite clear
where they're going to do that uh as you know this plan had couple Renditions it started out eight stories and then they decided to manipulate the shape um so it's a n story
building but these stories are taller than a residential story so this um building is proposed at Nine Stories not including the penthouse and it's aund just a fraction
of an inch under 120 ft so it's a very tall uh building uh it is close to all the property lines and in fact encroaches on the public RightWay on Jersey
Avenue and again this is not you know putting out some tables and umbrellas this is permanent construction as if the applicant owned the public property uh I don't know that uh Jersey City is interested in selling the public
property and if you read your franchise ordinance uh it wasn't intended for permanent construction the way I read it um part of my analysis was to you know look at the surrounding area and Mr
seckler characterized the area and he he um he characterized it in a way that said uh across the street is a a eight-story building with some 83 whatever feet in height and I'll show
you that that's incorrect uh he mischaracterized the area in my opinion mischaracterized uh the number of stories uh in the area uh he talked about the lot pattern if you remember there was a study about
uh the median lot size because one of the big points he said was that this is a bigger than minimum lot size and that size uh plus um uh that that size plus its location he says makes it
particularly suited for a a hotel use uh part of my analysis was looking at the master plan uh your master plan recommended the current zoning and it uh did recommend a change
to one of the nc1 zones but that was further to the West so your master plan uh did not said no changes proposed uh for this nc1 Zone it's interesting that if you read your master
plan and talk about the neighborhood commercial districts uh from a planning point of view they divided into into three categories there was an NCS smallscale neighborhood there was an
NCM mediums scale neighborhood and then there was an NCL large scale neighborhood this is in the smallscale neighborhood and and as you remember the applicant says oh well keep in mind that
the nc2 and the nc3 zones allow hotels now first of all they don't allow hotels even though they allow hotels they don't allow ones as tall as this building 120 ft but your master plan said says that
three scales of NC districts are proposed each tailored to a different context that means that the planning board said yeah we're having three different um neighborhood commercial zones but you can't pretend you're in
another Zone we've specifically designed those zones for the context uh of the neighborhood and uh here's what it says it says NCS small scale neighborhood centers five stories required mixed use
Apartments over ground floor retail NCS may be appropriate and they name certain areas the other NC zones allow 6 to 8 stories and 8 to 12 stories so pointing to these other zones
is not helpful at all because they have a different context they have uh different standards different recommendations in the master plan um this building is
tall it's over while it's uh Nine Stories instead of um five I it's 1.8 times the maximum If This Were what you would expect otherwise let's say residential
over retail you would have a height limit of 55 ft and so this is over 28 times this is twice over twice as tall as this Zone was intended to
be and on the the diagram here P5 I've shown in a blue line 55 ft so that's the maximum height uh that if you had residential over retail and as you know the market
is pretty strong for retail um if you had office uses over retail which I would think is unlikely in today's market you could go up to 64 ft but this building has a lot of stories and a lot
of linear footage that greatly exceeds uh the maximum uh that's permitted uh let me um let's
see I want to mention a couple things that Mr seckler had and I and I I know the the record will show exactly what he said but he said that um this is a large
lot second largest lot in his analysis area it's located at a focal point cuz that's at the end of The Pedestrian area on uh Newark Avenue uh he said that the size and its
location is important because it supports uh The Nine Stories um uh he said that uh no he said that no parking was required now if you read your
ordinance it says that where you have an existing building that you have adaptive reuse and you're adding on that building and on to me means you're putting something on the roof you're going up
higher that's not while the applicant is going above this building the other half of it is all new construction and I don't think that's exempt from parking the way I read your ordinance
um the applicant spent a lot of time on the shadow pattern and admitted that it it will produce more Shadow than exists today uh didn't spend a lot of time on how the view from the top of the saffron
would be blocked uh he said it Advanced purposes of the municipal land use law a g i and J uh a talks about promoting the public welfare and and then he said oh look we're going to have an entertainment
area we're going to invite guests in from the neighborhood uh that in my opinion it's nice but does it justify a building twice the height and a use that is prohibited from The
Zone uh he talked about having susic sufficient space in an appropriate location I don't know how you can say there's sufficient space when he's building on the public property with part of the restaurant
he's violating the rear yard setback and he's bumping Up Too Tall that's that's not sufficient space for this use talks about promoting a desirable visual environment and I it's a new
building uh to me it's a little bit uh in your face it's very flashy uh wants to get attention uh that's a matter of public taste but when you have a building that's this tall taller than anything in the area in my opin iion it doesn't
promote uh Aesthetics uh he says Mr seckler said I recognize that this is not a historic site and then he says oh but this advances the municipal land use law of purpose of promoting
historic conservation historic preservation well you can't have it both ways you can't say it's not historic and then say Oh it's advancing that purpose um I did as part of the record did review the staff memorandum that
described in general the variances that were needed I just want to footnote that the memorandum is dated July 30th of 2024 I don't think there's been an update but that was before all of the
testimony that was presented so that was I guess a view prior to the application going forward prior to Witnesses prior to me making comment let me run through my exhibit a little more in detail to show what I think it
emphasizes so I'll go back to P1 um so uh on the left hand side uh you have a view of the subject property and again this area is a large builtup area uh it's solidly within the
C1 Zone and as you can see in yellow there's an R3 Zone that would allow eight stories there aren't really eight story buildings there because you need a certain minimum lot size to go up to eight stories uh but Mr Seer spent a lot of
time talking about the Redevelopment area uh to the east um and that's a Redevelopment area in blue dark blue 59 um the P2 shows you um the character
of the building and there's a nice wide side walk in the front and again the applicant is building up at an upper level so you get to see what socks people are eating with or what you know it's an uncomfortable height that they're going to be doing this is a
permanent structure this is not something that you take down in the wintertime this is a formal part of the building I don't know how you get under your ordinance a franchise for something that permanently takes the public property uh that that's kind of I'll
I'll leave it up to the applicant to explain how you can do that but this is a nice open area as you know it's a very heavy uh area it's a very congested area Mr seckler says it's a congested
area and it's a combination of cars that back up pedestrians and a very substandard uh Maxwell again pavement is only uh 10 1/2 ft wide and the applicant says well
we're going to pick it up and make the cart way the same level as the sidewalk and their explanation is this is great for pedestrians in my opinion it does the opposite you know normally
when you want to encourage pedestrian use and rights away you put up ballards you put up curbs because you want to separate cars from people this is just the opposite this means that this whole width is going to be a cartway and a
pedestrian doesn't know where to walk and and where not to walk uh the next view so on P3 I'm standing on the roof and uh looking uh toward uh the
rest of Jersey City and and toward the East and as you can see this building is a four-story uh over retail building on the lower left hand side and again and the the deliveries are done um on uh the Newark Avenue side of the building and
uh the current view uh without being a a panoramic view is on the lower right hand side so what I did on the upper side of P4 is I used the applicant's photo now
you can tell the applicant you know the lines on the pavers on the roof are straight lines and you can tell the applicant kind of manipulated the photograph uh to have it more confined in the middle uh I did the
opposite I uh swung my camera as a panorama and what I did is in those red lines is I reproduced uh on the on the East View um
what is going to be blocked by this proposed building and it is a substantial portion of the view and if you recall the testimony of our real estate expert when they show units on this property they
take them up to the roof because it's a great view it ain't going to be a great view if you allow this building um to be built uh again P5 shows you uh from Newark Avenue The View the
building and again uh the market is more as you know for residential than for offices so that would be a maximum 55 ft height the applicant is going to 120 feet and a total of Nine
Stories um the next slide P6 and again this this is these are renderings that the applicants acch presented but I want wanted to emphasize what the magnitude of the variance is at least in terms of height
and and this height isn't tucked into the middle of the block this is right in your face uh uh a few feet back from the front facade uh on uh on Jersey um and uh but essentially a very large building
and I drew in a blue line the maximum height limit from a building that you would expect uh residential over retail now on p7 uh I on the left hand side I
superimpose the zoning lines uh on an aerial map and I listed the number of stories uh and again the applicant is proposing a in I'll say 2/3 of the footprint a ninstory
building but look at the red numbers around it there is not one other ninstory building in the area now the applicant testified that across the street there was an eight-story building the answer is in that
development the first part of the building that's closest to the street is four stories that's where the there's a a kid Academy there and then there's a green area on the roof and then as you go back further it goes up to eight
stories in the middle of the block but there's no nine story building there I think it's it's seven stories um so the next one slide p8 and again there was a lot of emphasis about how they're tall
buildings in the area that are comparable to this there aren't any on the left hand side of p8 um you'll see I have the subject property in yellow and then across the street the Redevelopment
area and this is the regulation plan map 2 on the Redevelopment plan and as you can see across the street is Blue which is four stories with a bonus of one story so the maximum you can go up there
is five stories the D area is existing buildings that uh um you can have up to five stories as a
bonus and uh Zone C says four stories with a bonus of two stories so nothing in that plan says you can be Nine Stories uh if you look on the right hand side here's map five in the Redevelopment plan that says building
bonus height regulation plan and across the street from this property is green green maximum of four stories and F the existing height you can't go any taller than the existing buildings there
now clearly the applicant loves going Nine Stories because they look over everything else in the area you know great benefit of course they're blocking our view on the saffron but I'm sure the uh applicant is Overjoyed at getting that
view um the eth page um let's see the excuse me the ninth page has the whole Redevelopment pattern and again I'm just emphasizing that the taller buildings that are allowed are the in the interior of the
block and even more than a block away so the public policy is as you get toward this focal point um on Jersey Avenue while the applicant says I want to go big because this is a real important important thing
for my hotel the public policy across the street is don't go big stay the existing height of buildings only go four stories so the applicant has a policy and apparently a planning Pro policy that is nowhere um in any of the
planning policies of Jersey City the next slide is uh P10 and the subject I there's a red mark that says subject site and the subject site is is right by the r in the word
Newark it's not in a historic district that's the public policy uh and and a purist would say even if it was in historic distory what you're saving one window you know that that gives you to
make double the the the the building size because you're saving a window that doesn't make uh sense to me not only is this not in a local historic district it's not in a state or National Historic District and it's not individually uh characterized by
njde as being eligible for historic designation um the applicant talks about this being a large lot and and says oh that makes it peculiarly suited for a non-permitted use that doesn't make any sense to me if
you have a large lot you ought to be able to fit in a reasonable building not put your restaurant out on the public property meet the rear yard setback you should have enough land that you don't need all of these
variances so you have to connect the applicant says it's Unique well that's like saying um this is the only property in Jersey City that has the address of 2011 Newark Avenue That's Unique but the answer is
how does that get you from that uniqueness to say it's peculiarly suited for a hotel there is no logical Connection in my opinion so let me summarize my conclusions the applicant has the burden
of proof you might like the project you might not like the project the question is has the applicant provided you with evidence that meets the positive and negative criteria for variances as to the hotel use that's a Michi case
the hardest case to get you have to show that there's a public purpose Advanced you have to show that the site is particularly suited and you have the enhanced burden of proof on the negative criteria the applicant can't just say oh this is not detrimental to the master
plan and and the zoning ordance the applicant has to March through the reasons why a building twice the height and a use that's not permitted uh is somehow not uh injurious to the master
plan uh again the applicant says it's peculiar because of the size and the location it's great for residential use over retail use and you got enough land to do a decent building have some
parking in it uh and it doesn't single out as being in my opinion particularly suited for hotel use in fact it is particularly unsuited because of the problems of
access on Maxwell again trucks backing out all the action is going to go there the applicant has no par no says there's no required parking on the site I think that's not a proper interpretation of the ORD but in any event there have to
be these minations with valet parking in off-site use that suggests to you uh that this site is this development is clearly not proportional is not suited uh to this type of use again the applicant cited Municipal
land use law purposes a g i and J A he talked about the the great Community pro programs that this applicant is going to provide it's going to invite the neighbors for the area to use the pelaton machines
um I suppose that if someone built a residential property here um and they had an exercise room they could do the same thing uh these are minor things in my opinion they certainly add to the land use impacts again the study that
was done uh was you know Hotel traffic but there's a separate use here which is the entertainment area it's got a little theater in it there's got a lot of stuff going on on this property that will generate um activity that has not been acknowledged in my opinion in terms of
its land use impacts the applicant talks about there being sufficient space in an appropriate location the master plan and the zoning ordinance are in agreement this is not a location for a hotel and in fact you can't fit it on
the property cuz he has to bump it way up in the air and has to eat up the public property talks about a desirable visual environment um it's a handsome building if you like to have all these uh uh you
know veins on the front uh it it's it's kind of an in-your-face building it will certainly draw attention but Aesthetics to me are not just the type of materials that are clad on the building it's it's the bulk of the building this will be
the tallest building in an area in a neighborhood commercial Zone that your master plan should be said said should be about five stories and finally the applicant relies on purpose I preserving historic sites it's a nice
looking building the applicant is saving one of the windows but that's not a recognized public purpose clearly one that would just ify this huge building in an area not intended for
it so in my review it's the applicant's burden of proof um I disagree with his characteristics characterization of the area there are no nine-story buildings in this area and in fact the public
policy is to go down as you like across the street in the Redevelopment area is to keep the heights low when you're at the street and they appear to be four-story buildings across the street uh this building has a lot of
problems that are circulation oriented uh they're using Maxwell which is a substandard street in my opinion they're making it less pedestrian friendly because now there's no distinction between the sidewalk and
where a truck can go and I my own opinion is the applicant did this because they know they're going to have to drive over the curbs so they're making the whole thing a street calling it pedestrian friendly it isn't they're obviously turning movements as
indicated there fire hydrant on the corner so if you look at the standards of the medich decision um in my opinion there are no significant public purposes that are
Advanced by this in my opinion it is not particularly suited for a hotel use the applicant cannot accommodate the problems from the excessive height just
go to the top of the building of the saffron and you'll see one of the problems is right now we have a great view we have a conforming height they want to block it that's a negative standard and in fact you have some testimony about what the impact of that
standard is at least financially on the neighbors so as I listen to the table the testimony it's my opinion the applicant has not met their burden to proof there are no substantial public purposes Advanced this is not particularly suited and if this is
approved as proposed it will substantially impair the intent purpose of the master plan and the zoning ordinance and will be detrimental to the public good thank you very much ask any questions
Hart I'm going to just get some water if I may it's only [Music] water if I could Mark uh a few photos uh into the record as exhibits uh A5 is a series of three
photographs uh taken of the property at 532 Jersey Avenue uh on December 5th around 9:00 uh A6 is a series of three photographs of uh the properties at 141 norc Avenue 143 norc Avenue that front
on Columbus uh Drive uh same time same day and uh the A7 would be uh a photograph uh Facing East of uh another um building along Colum drive that that also is a through lot into norc Avenue and then you have the
larger uh buildings to the east um these for the record these are all photographs that that I took personally um so I can verify that what they are let me just [Music] get for U I guess I don't get to look at
[Laughter] one okay well we'll they'll maybe an extra one here I can St next to you can I'll get okay
that's right so Mr St I I just want to start off really to try to clarify things things we we have we have been talking about the property at 532 Jersey Avenue that that is uh located directly across the
street uh or caddy corner from from the subject property I show you what's been marked as exhibit A5 it's uh says 532 Jersey Avenue on top do you see that yes okay is that an accurate depiction of
the building that is is located uh across the street that that goes from Jersey Avenue to I mean Jersey Avenue to Christopher Columbus Drive uh I can't verify that so so you don't know if that building is located there no I I don't
know if I I I I don't know if this is an accurate photo of it I didn't take it okay well I I I can make that representation on a Rec okay uh that that I did take this of 532 Jersey Avenue from Jersey Avenue okay okay okay
and that's that is the the property that that Mr SE seckler was referring to as it's it's approximately uh 83 and a half fet in height the one that's only six stories no this is seven stories well I'm looking at the photo okay and
there's a ground level that's one right 2 3 four five six excuse me seven stories okay thank you okay and that's that's located seven way one two three four five six they're take move to the
next page okay please sorry and that that gives you a p better perspective of the seven stories correct the the taller section I don't know where you where you asking me to look here and here those are set back from the front property
line right but there's seven stories I'm asking yeah but I'm I'm saying that the Redevelopment plan says you go lower when you're closer to the street you can go higher when you go further away the the taller section is closer to the subject property
correct um yes it is I that's not how I looked at the aerial photographs the the that building uh if I recall when you get further from the street it steps up okay
so let's um well let me just uh and it's not Nine Stories it's not I agree with that let's take a look at a six that identifies 141 and 143 norc
Avenue are you familiar with those properties um I'm assuming you took them accurately I I looked at I concentrated on the properties closest to the subject property and that was on my exhibit uh
page seven okay so if if you can point to where that is on my uh exhibit I'm happy to uh it's it's further it's further up here it's between Jersey Avenue and grow Street yeah it's yeah as you get further
away they're taller buildings but that's that has less of an influence on this property and as I said the public Pol is that in the r Development Area the public policy is taller buildings can occur but further away
from Jersey Avenue and so what is how close does a building have to be for you to consider it relevant to the height um I think the area in my um survey on p7
is a good representation of uh the character of the area and what is that radius uh it's Pro well it's not just a radius I first of all I wanted to make sure had properties within the same zone
so if another Zone allows taller properties that's okay cuz the governing body made that decision they didn't change this zone so it it's not just distance it's yes how close if it's if there if there
was a nine-story building right next door to this I might have a different opinion if there was a nine-story building in another Zone that permitted nine-story buildings I might have another opinion but that's not the facts well see your opinion is if if
it's not immediately on this page p7 no one should consider it I didn't say that I said that there's a priority of consideration uh the uh Redevelopment Zone the Newark area downtown allows in
some areas eight-story buildings it's okay that's the public policy it isn't the public policy seat here well let's talk about public policy and and the immediate zones on your p7 R3 uh is is uh on the left hand side
correct yes it's a it's distant from it doesn't abut the subject property but it's on the upper leftand side or the north northwest of the subject property how how close do you think that is uh the corner might be uh 100 feet
away okay okay 100 feet little over 30 yards um and that can I believe you agree that in the R3 Zone you can go up to 85 feet and8 stories on lots that are 6,000 square F feet and higher correct that's correct okay and that's the
public policy the governing body said it's okay in that area okay but um we uh so you're not saying that well of course we're before the zoning board correct that's my recollection yes M too
so that's the purpose of this one of the purposes of this board is is to to look at particular properties and see maybe that zoning isn't isn't correct that maybe another use is more appropriate provided you uh meet the positive and
negative criteria in the legal proofs correct no the board is not into position to say that zoning isn't isn't appropriate the answer is there's a presumption of validity of the zoning ordinance so the board has to listen to the testimony to see if the statutory
criteria are satisfied that Grant relief but but the they can't say we don't like the ordinance there's a presumption of validity to it and it happens to be in agreement with the master plan but there well I'm not going to I'm not going to debate you over over what
their their obligation is um so your your opinion uh well let me ask you you don't think it's relevant or do you think it's relevant that this property is located directly across from a pedestrian
Plaza uh that means it's a congested area with not only cars and a lot of people that so it is it is it has a a land use influence uh that that there's a pedestrian Plaza across the intersection and and your opinion as a
professional planner is that it would not be appropriate to have a hotel use on on a large lot across from a pedestrian Plaza in an urban area um I don't invent public policy I read the
policies of Jersey City and I read the policies of the master plan those are the policies what what I personally think of whether it be economics successful or not is irrelevant well I'm interested in what you think I think the board might well I I told you I think
that you haven't presented enough proofs that would allow this board to approve the application okay so you a okay so I'm not going to get an answer um and were you aware or are you aware
that the that the NC the neighbor her commercial Zone was was amended prior to the most recent master plan uh adoption I just looked at the current uh zoning and the current master plan and they are
consistent okay but so you're not aware of any possible reasons why the city and the planning department wouldn't have touched the NC Zone well the master plan did talk about changes to the NC Zone but not in this area they talked about
changes further uh to the West okay but I know when you still when you have the master plan and you have zoning in place um
there there are there can still be properties that were not appropriately covered by the by the broad brush is would you agree with that um there well as you know zoning is done by
districts because otherwise uh favoritism arrives you know like you can't have a you in a Redevelopment area you can have individual lot zoning but to be constitutional you got to Zone by districts so there are
situations that cannot be easily handled because there's something peculiar about the property that suggests that variance releas is warranted and then you have to go to well how big a variance is it is it 10%
over the height limit or is it 100% over the height limit those that's all part of the the analysis okay and well we can agree is with regard to this property other than the saffron property it appears to be the largest property on the on the downtown norc Avenue Carter
would you agree with that in in the immediate let me look at my map in the immediate area uh within the nc1 Zone this is the second largest lot with the saffron being the the larger the larger that's
correct okay and that's shown on P11 of my exhibit okay and are you aware that the the saffron building was approved by the zoning board for height variances back when it was approved back in the early 2000s I I don't know it it appears
to be the appropriate height it may be that part of the property is in a different Zone uh I'm not aware uh I can tell you it's a five-story building well actually so I'm unaware of uh exactly uh any any history of
variances that were granted yeah actually I I I think the second the Second Amendment for for that was the the amenity level is is actually a six floor it was approved by this zoning board um well there's like a penthouse up there um but if we want to include
pen houses then the hotel is a 10-story building no this the saffron is a six-story building if if you include the the room uh common room on the roof I I would agree with you okay but that's set back
that's not at the at it's visible from a pedestrian on the street okay let me ask you about the parking you you you talked about um um well you you have a different interpretation from the applicant and from uh the Jersey city planners in
their report that yes I just read what the law said and would you well let what what if I told you it was a recommendation of the planning department to reduce parking and to close the curb cut on on
norc Avenue with regard to this project u i I think you're telling the truth so is that would you consider that policy to follow well that's an opinion of a planner uh the PO they don't they can't the planning staff can't change the
master plan and they can't change the zoning ordinance they can make recommendations but those are before the hearing they didn't have all the information I think they need to make that judgment I'll Grant you it's nice to close well first of all the curb cut
doesn't isn't operative now behind the building and it's nice to close that off except that if you left it open it might be a little easier to load and unload but that's I'm living with the plan that you proposed okay and let me
ask the um are you familiar with the Jersey City demolition ordinance no okay so you're not aware aware that you don't have to be historic
historically designated in Jersey City to have a demolition permit for a property denied would you ask that again I'm not sure I understood are you aware that in Jersey City it does not matter if you are
historically designated in order to prevent a demolition of a building I'm not aware of that okay okay and if if I well so you're not you're not aware that there's a review
process that goes through the planning department for a determination if there are any historic resources for a building before you can get any demolition permit I said I wasn't aware of it okay just make clear because this
uh there's been a lot of talk about about uh the Capital One building not being historically designated by locally or the state um which we agree I but if well
you've already answered I'll scratch that um look at let's look at P5 uh do you want me to put that up on the screen yeah that' be great okay let's see if I can work that out
okay okay so on P5 here you have the 64 feet is the maximum permitted Building height for a building without residential uses is that correct uh it doesn't have residential above the first floor commercial
okay so what you're showing here does not um allocate for bulkheads that would be permitted above the permitted Building height of 64 is that correct uh right that's that's the the roof height
and you can have a parit for example or a bulkhead sticking above it and there's certain standards you can't have too big a bulkhead but there are standards right and and if I told you that the standard here would be for an additional 12 feet is does that sound correct uh yes that's
my recollection okay and I believe that's maybe it was referenced in the Jersey city planners report correct uh I don't remember that specific language but I I recall that there is an allowance for a bulkhead that's not too tall okay well let's let's turn back
to uh P4 and and the bottom diagram you have there is I'm I'm assuming on on the right hand side that's reflective of a uh well let me let me back up I'm sorry that's reflective of the proposed
building correct on the right hand you mean on the Lower Side Lower right hand side yes with your checkered area well uh the upper one is your architect's exhibit that I put red on y and it looks
like uh it was um uh it was kind of reduced in width as you uh by the lens and I did kind of the
opposite I expanded it but as you can see from the arrows I tried to align The View with the buildings that were in the background so that was my attempt to approximate
what is going to be blocked by uh the new building okay but the lower picture right hand side the lower level that correct me for a moment is that supposed to be a depiction of How
High the proposed building is in that area I'm not sure I understand your question that that's the only uh manipulation I did with that photograph is I took a panor view so I I it's it's broader than if
you were standing there and on the right hand side is the other part of the saffron and then that open space is the is the courtyard between the two halves of the saffron building and I I took it that other half doesn't have Community
facilities on top I I took standing on what is in the photo the left side because that's where the pool is okay but the lower diagram the purpose of that picture is to try to demonstrate
what views will be obstructed by the proposed building yes okay and on the right hand side the build the proposed building is 71 feet in height is do do you agree with that uh I'd have to look at the the plans but I again I just I
just reproduced on the upper photo I put red lines on it and around your applicant's exhibit and I simply expanded it horizontally not vertically
so in my opinion that's a fair approximation of what's going to be blocked okay so I'm representing that that side and the plans represent that that it's 71 feet on that side of the okay so with the permitted
bulkheads the the height of an a of right building could be 76 feet in total correct yes okay so this this view or obstruction could be could be all
across the uh the subject property at a five feet higher than what you're showing for an as of right development is that correct it it could be uh you would then you would just see the taller buildings behind it but you you'd have this you're there' be
some blockage by a conforming building but it would not be to this extent you could add well we we'll we'll show that later yeah I have nothing further for Mr St thank um Iris are
you don't have any redire I have no redirection thank you yes okay um it's approximately 8:23 let's say 8:25 uh 15 minutes is that good for you okay so 8:40 will'll uh
resume 84 8:40 okay can we start it's uh 8:43 okay okay okay oh yeah okay um at this time um we will ask the public if they have any questions just for those two witnesses these are
questions only this is not for you to come up and tell us what you're thinking about the project Etc but if you have any questions from the public for the two witnesses you can please come up to the mic you'll have to spit state your name and your address spell your name uh
and ask your question Noone okay how about the commission okay are there any Commissioners that have questions for the two witnesses for the for the two witnesses only questions um there was some picture is this
on it's green but it's not you hear me anybody it's green is that working yeah that's better I seen um um I just had a question about um did anyone have any of the two
witnesses maybe even others I'll ask later but uh of any photos or views from in other directions of the building because it seem like everyone has just the picture of Facing East but not North
west or south from the rooftop I mean just like there's no panoramic kind of view here it was just a I was just curious if anybody had a picture or something like that I can I can maybe address that because I've worked with you've seen a bunch of the witnesses the residents and everything okay it's that
Eastward view toward the Hudson and it's actually Jersey City skyline yes there are other I mean you want to look over at the highway you can turn around well but it's the one they care about and that's why that's what all the photograph I was just curious if anyone had so we could actually see that too no
you're welc there but I mean you got a beautiful view of you know 78 or whatever it is yeah I just that that's that's yeah but there's a reason I just wanted to know it's not like there's gorgeous gorgeous views except I've got something on my except in One Direction
everything else is kind of crap that's the direction you want to look at okay I differ on that no I'm good that's it okay the commissioner has any other questions [Music] um just the two people CU he keep saying that yes
yes I did have one more hold on I know the gentleman kept saying that um the trucks going into Maxwell from okay the trucks going into Maxwell you're saying that when they go into delivery that they would then have
to back up into Jersey Avenue is that correct they would have to back up down Maxwell Street up towards Jersey Avenue why but not into J not necessarily into Jersey not into Jersey Avenue oh okay cuz I'm getting the impression like
you're making it seem like these trucks once they go into Maxwell and they deliver or whatever that they're going to have to back up into Jersey Avenue to to to lead whereas I'm just assuming to me it it's just correct going all the
way up to Maxwell and taking coold Street they'll they'll have to back up out of the site driveway onto Max Street um and it's hard to say exactly how far they'll have to back up but potentially into the sidewalk onto uh the Jersey
Avenue sidewalk before they pull forward towards Cole Street are you saying that because maybe the entrance to the garage is is really close to Jersey Avenue and that's why they need to back up in order to turn I I don't I don't see that why
can't they just go right in go into whatever they're going to do and then keep going straight into Maxville Cole Street they have to back up to straighten out and they have to straighten out their wheels on Maxwell Street right because that's a very narrow right of way yeah and it's a very very close distance between the bumper
but according to the plans that the applicant submitted it's a very small distance between the edge of the bumper and the wall of of the building right so it's there they'll have to very carefully navigate backwards with no without looking behind them right
they'll have a the applicant suggested that there would be a valet person uh guiding them backwards mhm and then once they back out onto Maxwell Street and straighten out they have to straighten out their vehicle right because it's such a narrow right of way then they start pulling forward so they'll pull
forward down Maxwell and make the right or left on Jersey they'll pull forward they'll bu westbound on Maxwell and then turn left on Cole turn left yeah left okay Cole Street is all the way left you got to turn yeah you have CO's is one way southbound yeah it's just one way
okay and I have a follow-up question for you on that which is that in the meantime cars are going to be queuing on Jersey to turn to Head West on Maxwell and I think that's part of what you mentioned the truck's backing up beep beep whatever and the cars trying to
turn in and that's where so even if the truck doesn't back all the way to Jersey yeah that's where you're going to have problems but you're anticipating that these are going to be huge trucks oh su30sm much larger than a like UPS panel truck they're not semis but they're big big
trucks you can see it from the from the diagram you can see it from the diagr I see I see okay okay we have no other further any other questions from the board any of the either no okay so no I have one
okay so so um for the delivery on a truck it it may not be necessary for them to pull in you know just say if they had like three or four boxes right would would it be okay in your opinion if they stopped on Jersey Avenue and
maybe hand truck the boxes or the um I see it doing I see people do it all the time just CU they do it doesn't mean it's okay that's an enforcement exactly or they can just easily go drive right into Maxwell take whatever they have to
do take it out and then just keep going straight without having to back up I just you know I that to me just I mean blocking right away is that you kept saying that they're going to back into Jersey Avenue um cuz I'm I mean I grew up downtown so I I'm very familiar with that um I I also want to ask if you
could point out the difference in delivery volume between just a little panel truck giv you know Cokes to a store versus Hotel laundry and linen service and food supplies for a restaurant of that size again the su3 was testified as the size of a garbage
truck that that's the size of deliveries we're talking about and you should say it not me just go ahead if you any you said it go ahead some of these questions you have for for Mr simoff are really operational questions that would be more
appropriate probably for Mr Cella to address and and we we can bring that up we wait untilt yeah because we have more questions okay all right so if there are no further questions for these two witnesses um from either of the Commissioners or or the public then
thank you for your testimony thank you um okay no mron up to you now right so where are you want to do uh do you have do you have individuals to
so do you have other witnesses that no I I don't have I have rebuttal Witnesses okay so you want to do that before I uh cross-examination of their they have three other Witnesses oh that I did not cross-examine yes they here now these
people I believe okay okay so I'll defer to the board you do that and then you can put on your rebuttal case okay and I I believe uh Mr DVI was the uh the first am I pronouncing that incorrectly no that's D
Grant is the first name d is the last name okay I want to v i k r a n t d a l v i thank you okay good evening Mr doy so um my
recollection just so so I'm clear and the board's clear is that when you were testifying uh you testified with regard to this exhibit that's marked O2 okay thanks and just uh I guess for the record again it it was a while I think
it was maybe in December November actually November 14th November November when you testified no 14th yes thank you 91 that's thank you you don't have to certify that you read the transcript [Laughter]
so um yeah just to refresh everybody's recollection you are not a registered architect in New Jersey correct no okay uh and as a result of not being an uh a registered architect in New Jersey you cannot testify before boards as a as a
registered architect I'm a registered architect in New York but not New Jersey not in New Jersey and it's it's a reciprocal license essentially you don't need to give any more exams for a separate license it's just a administrative paperwork because most of the codes and other things in New Jersey
and New York is very similar so you just have to fill out some admin paperwork to get a license in New Jersey but I don't have that okay and and what you submitted as a as was marked as 02 um they're not signed and sealed
correct yeah because these are uh not for approval or for any permit these are just observations from their drawings which I took and recreated some Line work on top of it just to highlight how detrimental this project is so I have not designed or created any project that
I need an approval I'm just taking an existing uh project that was presented and finding like putting my findings on top of it okay but you I did not sign it it does not require sign and seal drawings if I'm just doing a presentation which is not for approval
or for but you don't have the authority or the ability to sign and seal these in New Jersey no okay um and and if I recall uh you don't live at the saffron uh presently correct no okay so you lease out your unit rent out yeah rent
out and it's it's not an Airbnb is it no okay um trouble as a board member are you aware of any possible airbnbs uh in the saffron no we are very tight regulations we fine heavily if something like that
Gab Gabby cany that thank you so uh you presented if I recall three photographs um as part of o2 is that your recollection I did yeah I have bunch of exhibits uh which one you're talking
about their renderings or I presented just the photographs of of of the unit yeah yeah two okay so and if I if I recall actually I'm reading uh from the
transcript yeah I forgot what the heck I don't know the time but this shows the morning that when you took those photographs yeah these were a long time back these are not recent so I don't remember the exact time so wasted time okay do do you remember the exact day these were
essentially I think I don't remember the exact month or day okay so when when you say it's the they were taken in the morning it could be anywhere from 7:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. yeah okay um and you did you did a study as part
of o2 where you it's called a shadow study where you you did it based upon uh or at 8: am. in the morning is that correct yeah because uh so when when the when your team presented they had Shadow studies
from 9 at 9:00 a.m. 10: a.m. for different days and what your team said that the shadow impact is more severe during the winter months which is October to February and due to the daylight savings and everything uh
typically like the sun 8: a.m. is is a good time to reflect because the day starts early during the winter month so I I thought that it would be helpful to know what the impact is on 8 A.M as well so that's why I added the 8 A.M and and your Shadow study was based upon the proposed project okay you didn't do any
analysis at a 8: a.m. of the existing condition did you no I did not okay and you you didn't provide any analysis as to what the the the shadow effect would be from an as of right height of a building on that property no I did not
okay so we only have that one analysis of the pro proposed project we correct so what I I took your project and just for the winter months October November December January February you had already provided 9 a. and 10: a.m. I
added an 8 a.m. for for those days right and if you recall we we we did a comparison as to the existing condition versus the proposed condition do you recall that yeah okay but we don't have that as part of your analysis no I don't okay and uh the golden colored lines
I'll call it that you have within your report were were they just prepared by you yes and is is there any education or or training you you do to to do that yeah so in architecture you have you
have a 5-year program and it's not just design there's a climatology sustainability planning it's it's basically the whole gamut but you're not like you get a degree of architecture where you learn these things like the sun studies and the climate and the Shadows it's part of the program so
during my bachelor's and Masters I have a masters in architectural design we are educated to uh to analyze these not as a professional but in our as an education like as a progam progr like as a course in during college and also when you get
into professional practice you do sun studies using various softwares and then you gain knowledge how typically the sun would work and how cards work how the light reflects I don't have the exact angle but this is a conceptual uh iteration of how the card helps being a
light well so it's it's just a conceptual uh rendering it is conceptual yeah it shows how the cat functions how the light would reflect from one first facad to the other and that way help lit up the other facade which is in shade so if you shade this facade you're actually
shading both the facad so that's what this shows okay um when you when you're uh part of uh2 you you provided you provided a uh a photograph of of the building across the street and you reference the four story
or five story structure is that if you recall yeah yeah it's here let me just open it and and if I recall you you walk you said you walk that way to the path every day is yeah to the office yeah and it's a short walk to the path right yep and
I'm assuming you make a left on Columbus and walk down no I walk on I walk on New York keep walking straight to New York okay and how how long is your your your walk to the PATH station it's like an from 10 minute walk from where I live
okay yeah and you don't walk on on Columbus Drive no I like walking on New York okay all right I've okay someone else wanted to uh question yeah it's
uh Joseph Medi mrich I'll swear you in one tonight as well please do you swear that the testimony you provide this evening will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes please take your full name for me again Joseph medich spell me
d i c i thank you good evening Mr Michi um welcome back um so I believe it your testimony um excuse me sir I he an imp if you speak into the mic I can hear you
I recall that I apologize can you hear me better or no okay great so at the the the last uh meeting that you testified um you establish your license appr appraiser in New Jersey you're a licensed uh that's
better you're a licensed appraiser New Jersey correct New Jersey licensed appraiser correct okay and under your license are you limited on on what you can what properties you can appraise I'm sorry are you limited on on properties
that you can appraise for example can you appraise only residential property Residential Properties yes sir thank you okay and uh you mentioned um when uh when testifying that there are
certain forms provided by Fanny May Freddy Mack that you use in your appraisals is that correct correct okay and you presented what I'm showing you as 04 do you recall uh that that slide deck pardon me do you recall uh
testifying with regard to that deck well certainly some of um this information is what I testify to okay not specifically exactly this well that no words I didn't see it in this way I was asked questions I answered it
okay well it's it's your exhibit not not mine pardon me it's your exhibit not mine this isn't what I prepar I I I entered this so this is what your office gave me okay and this is what was on the screen when you were testifying I
just didn't recognize in that format that's right the office had formatted is my understanding okay so when we look at uh 04 I it's the title the first page if you could turn to the first page it it says Market appraisal
correct first page that's what it says yes yes so is is this considered an appraisal report is would is is this an appraisal report no no this wasn't a market appraisal of the subject or any of the
condo units this was an analysis of the whole project listing some of the units and sales in the uh in the complex okay so just for the record it's not an appraisal report
um and so if I if I recall correctly you you focused on two sales at the saffron uh unit 512 and unit 312 do you recall that yes and I remember a question came up were
they directly over each other or were they in the same location just different floor and I can't answer that and say yes they are okay and do you know which side of the saffron they're located on where the Maxwell side or the norc Avenue side no I don't
okay and I believe the premise or your your conclusion clusion or or or theory was that unit 512 on the fifth floor would sell for more than unit 312 on the third floor because it's a it's located higher in
the building is that right well the higher floors bring more money right and okay and so 512 sold for $880,000
and 312 sold for $820,000 correct 620 oh 8820 I'm sorry yes 820 did I say it wrong correct I'm sorry all right so so we shouldn't be surprised that 512 sold for more than than 312 right I mean
by $60,000 because it's at a higher floor no not really okay and did you um did you look at the listings for these uh properties at all I have them
with me okay and I bought information for the board and for you if you'd like that information I have it here well let me ask you a question um is it accurate that both these units were it's as accurate as the Hudson County multiple listing no I'm I certifies to I'm trying
to to to uh you know just jump to the question is if you since you have the listing is is it accurate that they were both listed at I believe $790,000 for sale how much Sor I didn't hear you I'm sorry were they both listed for $790,000 for sale or 7 let me see I just
have to look at the listings yes um to answer your question 312 was listed at $799 and sold for 820 correct I and and wasn't uh I believe 512 was
listed for the same amount I'm sorry sir was 512 uh listed for at the same amount 512 was listed at actually the same price $7.99 that that sold for 880 right so both both units sold for
more than their list price yes they did okay all right so um one considerably more one sold for 880 one on the fifth floor that's so the mark Market's strong there I'm sorry the market is strong there when you're getting above asking
price I I didn't understand you you didn't hear you okay so so it's is it your opinion that the market is strong uh for those particular units because they sold at prices higher than their list price the market was
strong yes and the uh the fact that they were both listed at the same price uh shows that they were um there was a demand but the Demand only Rose to a certain point for 312 it went higher for
512 being the the Upper Floor okay and let me ask you this uh do you know how many parking spaces are within the saffron garage I don't you don't okay do you know if either uh unit
312 or 512 has any access to any parking in the saffron excuse me the listing States they have one car covered so one car in the garage for for which unit pardon me for unit 512 the saffron yeah has one
car well there's seven there's represent there's 50 and Gabby can correct I believe there's 50 parking spaces in the garage the units we're talking about each have one car comes with the unit one car covered parking does that say it in in the listing because that's what it
says in the listing okay the Zillow listing says that 312 only has parking upon availability the listing for 512 States one car covered garage yep the listing for uh
312 it doesn't uh State the parking it says see remarks I don't see anything in remarks referencing it wait saffron includes an indoor parking garage for an additional monthly fee right so is so the parking was available if they're
willing to pay the additional monthly fee or parking is available if a space is available in the garage well I would assume when they're selling these units that there questions are irrelevant they can at that time least one
space um so can can I just ask a question here so so 512 comes with aded it's it my understanding it's not deeded it's it's subject to availability and if you if you rent it you know you got it
you have the rights to it 312 I I don't believe they they have they have the I apologize everybody's speculating but we have a guy who knows the answer to this I'm happy to put him on this is Gabby Fu he's the president of the HOA board you've had him and sworn him in before you speculating
you're speculating he knows the answer to this it's an interesting it's an interesting answer no way there's no way within all good faith in the world these two guys couldn't have known it but Gabby knows the answer but I just kind of wondering where is this questioning going if you're if I'm buying if I'm
buying a a unit where I have a parking space uh it's going to be more valuable than the one that doesn't so it just I I I guess I'm trying to find out why why it's you know a surprise that the higher unit is selling for more than the lower
unit well if you 52 can have you know M appliances how do we know that well that's irant that well okay that that's exactly the point um we did yeah you know Mr Mich you
you when you testified before the board you didn't provide any other adjustments or analysis with with regard to review of these units is that correct well what I did how about Mr I'm sorry sir I'm
having trouble hearing you if you don't speak into the mic you never went into oh look at that you never went into either of these units 312 or 512 no I haven't but it's standard it doesn't matter it's yes or no you didn't go in
know what inside them I was not inside them thank you okay okay next question I was inside them visually because you have a virtual tour of all of these units I didn't my feet didn't go inside but I saw the inside of the units but
what I wanted to say I reviewed eight sales in the saffron over the past two years these the lowest sale was $635,000 doesn't matter that's the first floor
unit as the values go up on the units the sale prices go up the floors go up the highest sale was the 880 unit on the fifth floor so the first floor was
635 the fifth floor was 880 that's like a 25% difference okay and the main difference is the upper floors the only place that the lower floor sell for more money is in a senior citizen complex cuz everybody wants to be on the first floor
but when you get into luxury condos up is better and more expensive okay but you you didn't testify to those sales at the last meeting correct I think I referenced them I don't know if I referenced them individually but I bought all that
information if the board would like it okay and if I recall correctly that you're you came to some a conclusion that there's a 10% negative effect on the value for from this project is that is that
accurate it's a 10% cumulative taking in all the different conditions that were required to when we appraise these units and we have to do a Fanny May appraisal that has to be approved but this this is not an appraisal report pardon you you said earlier it's not an appraisal
report what is that you what what what you presented this is referencing the sale prices and the floors that they're on and the dates of sale and it and it stands to reason that the lowest was 635 the highest was 880
and it's floor one to5 in that order and that's how they sell any any salesman or any appraiser testifying will tell you that the higher floors bring more money it's just a fact okay that uh I'll I'll
stipulate to that um yeah and these other sales we don't have any adjustments or uh you uh presented to the board or were you ever in any of those units but as far as adjustments yes or no when you get into condos if they're all the same
square footage like most of those condos are 992 Square ft to 1065 so they all have two baths they all have two bedrooms so as far as adjustments the only adjustments you're making are for floor
for view for location those are the only adjustments okay as an appraiser that's the only adjustments you would make pardon me that as an appraiser that's the only adjustments you would make and the same building with the same units okay you know the same building with similar
square foot units okay I I have no further questions okay okay thank you you have another witness that you want to take a question I have a a rebuttal no but I mean oh yeah one more yeah with the thank you thank
you he can't hear why would he even do that really it was a waste of time he didn't he didn't make a point Chuck made no points yes l yes I do you're welcome good evening good evening how
are you I'm all right how are you good so um I'm sorry who who is this gentleman this is Gabby faloo yes that's fine all right correct okay and if I recall correctly can I say Gabby instead of sure you can
call me gabby that's fine uh you do some I don't have that trans so you are the uh current president of the safron condo board is that accurate yes that's correct okay
and so with the saffon garage do you have any problems with those cars backing up into Maxwell Street uh no because they don't need to because it's circular yeah they turn
around in in the garage they come in facing uh coals and they exit facing coals right because the garage is set up you need to back no car ever backs out of the saffron okay and and and for clarification no deliveries ever go through the saffron garage where do they
go for the commercial and there's no commercial really it's just a real estate office and a little Deli so with a uh a phone repair place so there's not a lot of deliveries there okay when when the deli gets deliveries they do it is an onsite loading you do not go into the
garage is there a designated online on Street loading zone is no no um well at least I'm not aware if there is one neighbor and we just um it it's it's uh well it's accurate
that the existing saffron building has has two Wings right the the the norc Avenue and and the the M with the courtyard in the middle okay sure and um all the windows
face into the courtyard or to Maxwell Street or norc Avenue is that accurate yes okay there's no there's no windows that face to the east uh on in your building correct correct well the the rooftop no windows no window it's just
an open space correct okay and you were I know you were here earlier um did you do any analysis or I I know in your your presentation you you had concerns about the view um but did you do any review or
analysis of what a building would look like if it were built under the current zoning up to 72 ft as a fact witness I have no idea why I would do that the answer for that is no okay well we got a lot of diagrams from fact Witnesses so
yeah okay that's all I have okay okay thank you now you do rebuttal uh Mr Harington so uh Mr Harrington where are we now at your rebuttle yes okay how many witnesses do
you have for that very quickly okay okay so let's start and see how far we go should tell we going to stop at 10 I think we said that Mr Harrington you know we have to stop at 10 because the guards shoot us I think or something
like that oh keep you is saying tonight don't put I thought yeah I thought could keep going is staying tonight oh he's staying tonight yeah
oh all right let's see how far we go I do sure Jose Caro c a r BSM boy a l l o you're welcome here
just the the rendering one went the back yeah you want it red Bo we're we're good okay Mr Kio has been previously sworn as an expert in architecture or accepted I mean yeah we
just did it so uh Mr gbo there's been a lot of talk about what would how the view would be obstructed with an as of right building under the current zoning were you you he about did were you here earlier yes I was okay and did you do um
an analysis of that yeah we uh we actually did this rendering and what this rendering shows is that and before before you start while you fix the computer uh I'd like to offer this as A8
go ahead so so we did this rendering of a uh an Sr building uh it has a 4ot parapet around it and it has the two stairwells that would connect uh the exit Paths of the other building and it has a uh um you know as well as An
Elevator Shaft uh you know toward towards the left of the building uh it it actually uh shows a uh a penthouse just like you know all the other buildings uh so that you can go outside and enjoy the uh the green area yeah uh this is what it looks like the
stairwells are 9t high uh which gives you the you know about 8 ft inside plus the structure uh and you can see that 9 foot uh Dimension goes uh across the uh The View and this is what it will look like so you would still have some views
blocked um however if you look to the left if you look North uh you can see Midtown Manhattan you can see other views so uh we're not complet completely uh eliminating the views or the view
paths for uh the saffron there are other views uh that are just as nice and this this is uh a presumed 70 feet 76 feet in height yes it is okay all right I just wanted wanted
him to present that to you okay thank you do you have someone else Mr Arrington let Conor mon for the restaurant okay we can do that we're
going ask those questions after this Hi how are you yeah sure thing do you that the testimony I do Connor montat m o n t know f as in
Frank E R R A Connor could you give the board uh the benefit of your U professional and educational qualifications absolutely I'm a certified General real estate appraiser in the state of New Jersey I hold uh my
realtor sales license I'm also a appraiser with the maai designation my background in education consists of uh a bachelor's degree from marus University two master's degrees from Ruckus University from the Edward J blin school for planning and public
policy one being a master in public policy the other being in Regional and City Planning and um Connor what does it mean to be and Ma and and what is what does that what does that stand for is it is it something you just sign up
for uh no way uh uh maai is to be a member of the appraisal Institute it's the highest Mark in real estate expertise in the country and is widely recognized in courts and in governing
Bodies Okay so thank you Connor for for the purposes of uh this appli a in tonight did did you do a review of a Miss oh I'm sorry yeah
yes medich yes okay did the board have any questions for me okay oh I meant about qualifications I mean is he is he being accepted as an expert you got it all right than you
yeah so Connor you you uh you reviewed uh the presentation materials that Mr Michi provide is that correct I did that was part of my scope of work and and uh you did an analysis on it correct I did
can you give the board the benefit of your review and thoughts on his analysis sure yeah it's not always my favorite thing to uh critique uh another appraiser um but it's it's part of our line of work um it's typical industry where we
review other peers work and I review uh appraisals that go out the door out of our office out of our firm every day um and in my review of the appraisal that was presented which um the witness said is
not an appraisal now but um it's presented as an appraisal um but in my view it's just does not meet minimum standard s that are required by appraisers and before you get too deep uh the report you prepared uh let's mark
that as A9 absolutely yeah A9 it is and could you identify that report on the record that's the appraisal review report that I authored okay do you want me to put that on the screen or do you would the board like
yeah let's put on the screen for the benefit of uh people attending sorry folks waiting for it to load everyone has a copy right yes good good would you like us to well I don't want him to have to do two things at once
yeah I think it's because I'm not on the Wi-Fi there it goes all right did you already plug it in to your to your computer yeah I wanted to throw it up first so everybody didn't have
to look at my desktop there we go anybody want one page or is one page better that works okay okay Connor if you could give us the highlights of of your report and
overview sure um so a lot of the review that I had conducted was to figure out whether the appraisal presented in front of you was either usap compliant or not and usap is
kind of the gold standard the Bible for appraisers it's known as the uniform standards of professional appraisal practice and across the board um the presentation that was made in front of you is not usap compant in no shape or form
form and the main items are pointed out on page seven and eight of my report and and you heard Mr Michi just before stating that he does not consider his his report or his presentation and
appraisal report right yes um but that's highly misleading because it's labeled Market appraisal okay so it's presented to you as an appraisal and do you did you find any other deficiencies or issues with his
analysis I did um a lot of the um presentation presented in front of you had no um data collection or analysis or research no verification of either square footage or the
sales um so it just appeared to be kind of thrown together and uh and presented in front of you in in your report you ref reference uh what a net opinion what what's your
opinion or why do you think it would be a net opinion um net opinions are um opinions out of thin air with no support um whether it be Market evidence or uh from data or from interviews with with Market participants like
Brokers okay um have you done any independent analysis as to uh any effect I have um as part of my review I did an independent analysis of some of the sales that um sirichi had presented in front of
you I determined that there is a floor premium Associated the saffron higher units on higher floors do sell for a higher value um I did a detailed analysis of price trends at the saffron versus Jersey City
overall in two out of the last four years saffron values actually fell as compared to the rest of Jersey City that Rose over the past four and five years I also found
that um buyers actually prefer to be located at the Newark building or the one uh at Maxwell building misspoke which was surprising to me because the Newark building is the one that has the rooftop Terrace and the rooftop
view but I can only come to the conclusion that buyers want to live at the Maxwell building because it's less noisy less Street traffic less vehic vehicular traffic and that's why they rather be located at the building okay
and just kind of going back to uh the medich presentation do you see any or in upon your review do you do you see any evidence or documentation that would support his conclusion that there is going to be a 10% negative effect uh
from this project no no um I do not instead buyers care about what floor they're located on what building they're located at how many bedrooms are in their unit how much square feet they have all these other factors in in are important to a buyer
of a home a condominium here uh than than the view okay what about the uh the skyline is that is that an issue uh did you review that I did and in my view of the data and
analysis of the data there was no indication that buyers cared about it now that's a hard thing to swallow because home buyers it's it's an emotional thing home buying and I'm not I cannot dismiss how home buyers
feel I mean that's a real thing but I'm here just to talk about the numbers and I cannot diminish how they feel whatsoever but the fact is that these are just home sales to home sales paired sales of like kind homes inside of the
saffron that show no difference in the selling price if anything I was as I was saying before which was really interesting was that they actually buyers prefer to be at the Maxwell building there's higher selling prices and there's High higher selling price
per square foot and that was you know that was definitely a shock to me okay thank you uh Connor then maybe maybe now's a good time to just pivot to the market study report you you prepare could you speak to that and let's mark that as
A10 sure and could you tell us a little bit what the purpose of this report is um as as part of my review I really wanted to uh take a deeper dive into figuring out the marketability of this project and
how it would function as a hotel and so part of my analysis was the review and the other analysis was how viable would a hotel be here and then what impact would it have on surrounding property values and surrounding homes including
uh condominium units at the saffron and what did you find I know I I read this s rep and then it's get down to one sentence I found that um that there's no impact on on The View that was the first thing um and I
figured that out through paired sales of existing condominium units facing existing hotels in Jersey City now I I've worked in Jersey City since uh 2015 now I got my start working on walk UPS
on JFK um and of first big case of the condemnation lot that Hudson County was taking and now I get to work with u the division of planning on new developments we um review applications at our firm
and myself personally for um existing and new developments in Jersey City I work for uh the Eda and NJ Transit I just recently worked on the Liberty State Park and Ride I worked on the Liberty State Park for the uh for the
Eda and the D and so I'm in Jersey City every day now but the uh the the finding of existing condominium units facing hotels is not an easy task but I was
able to determine that uh the 201 Garrison Avenue condominium building faces the rata Inn right in Journal Square and then the uh Pina uh Waterfront residences face the sesta Suites right on Second
Street and and so that by using paired sales of condominium units that face the hotel versus condominium units that do not face the hotel I found that there was no difference in the selling price that's presented both in my review
report and on uh page 39 of my market study report that was my quantitative analysis okay any anything else as part of a a a greater
qualitative analysis because I really wanted to understand how the hotel would impact the neighborhood I identified from my prior competitive set of hotels that this hotel would compete with and I analyzed their entire neighborhoods and their surrounding
property values and their surrounding land uses and I found at the element Harrison and um right near the path I found at the holiday in express in Jersey City in Jersey City um
the canopy in the residents in in Jersey City and even the rata in in Journal Square these were all hotels that were built you know even the Remada in Journal Square was built in 91 and Redevelopment still occurring in Journal Square um the same thing
occurred on the other hotels that were constructed and they served as a catalyst or were part of the overall Redevelopment plan and they just weren't Standalone and they had no negative impact on the surrounding property
values would you say they had a positive impact they did they increased land values which means that your existing developments or your existing home values increase as well when people when you get an increase in your price of your home the
land is actually what's increasing your building's depreciating over time unless you're constantly renovating it every year you know with your partner giving you a new project every other week okay anything
else uh the last thing that I wanted to get to was that I did find uh Market viability for this hotel um it's a far different Market than you know the post pandemic 2020 2021 market and the stats kind of prove
it we've had a a tremendous increase in uh Revenue rates um they're known as average daily rates of hotels so they're called ADR and we've also had a dramatic increase in occupancy too we went from a low in this
market from 42% to now averaging 74% that's a complete completely turn to the market when you say this Market what what Market are you talking about is it Jersey City Hudson County thanks uh yes
that' be both Jersey City and among the competitive set which was about five identified hotels okay anything else no I uh I'm open for any and all questions from the
board I have hi you did did a study about the neighbors you know their housing did you do a study about how the restaurants and the bars feel about the business they might or might not get because I when I think of New York Avenue that Plaza I
just think of all the restaurants and bars I go to yeah I mean that's what it's there for right that's why the mayor closed it off to give these people business right like he did with Grove Street after after covid he shut it off so the restaurants would survive so did you do a study to see if about their
businesses with a new Hotel I didn't you didn't I was just curious yeah but I guess in your opinion can can you give an opinion as to whether it would be a positive effect on on the uh commercial properties on norc Avenue I can yeah the the new hotel
guests that would be visiting would be going to not just one restaurant they'd be going to other restaurants in the neighborhood thank you so I have a question for you um you mentioned that you took a look at property
values uh in other parts of Jersey City that have hotels or motels whatever it might be yes okay so are those buildings by those hotels motels condos or are they just rentals majority of them um it's a it's a mixed bag and then that's
why I had to identify um those two condominium buildings that actually face the hotel okay and would you say that the neighborhood is quite different where those hotels are that you're talking about and the rentals or the mixed combination of the hotels and condos compared to the neighborhood that we're talking about right now um no um I
think that you wouldn't say it's more residential and more Community like on Nork Avenue what we're talking about than the neighborhoods where the hotels are that's a that's a a great point you have um from my data it doesn't matter whether it's a $200,000 condominium
buyer or a $ 1.5 million condominium buyer they don't care that they face a hotel it's just basic I I guess I'm just not talking about facing a hotel I guess I'm just talking about what's going on in the neighborhood so okay okay does anybody else have any
questions I think an has the question an do you have she yeah hi I actually hello there I just have one question for you and then what I might possibly do is put on young Joe Michi joichi Senor can't hear he can't hear this what was going
on what what please let me just ask Conor quier to do it from question the question please so you mentioned $200,000 condo and you mentioned million a half doll condo that's right I looked quickly I didn't know this was coming at the five you know comparables you had
and it sure looked to me as if some of them were I guess I would say challenge neighborhoods Tunnel Avenue that's route nine right next to the entrance to the Holland Tunnel uh the Harrison Street Path I mean that's a neighborhood that you know it's coming along and your
other two were already highrise million and a half highrise would you agree that it was very difficult for you to find a hotel with a whole bunch of Buzz and excitement and event space I'm quoting the the transcript and a well
established middle class neighborhood that's a that's a great point you make um I think all the different neighborhoods in Jersey City are what make this city a great place to live um and that um the data kind of just shows that buyers don't care well
but you didn't answer my question because I was trying to be nice to you and I was saying it was hard to find I would say it's impossible to find and that's why you didn't find it and you have comparables in struggling neighborhoods neighborhoods that are that need some improvement maybe
$200,000 condos I don't know you have high rises where everybody is a huge Glass Tower I didn't see and I don't think it's your fault a nice four story Brownstone neighborhood with a vent space Buzz 120 foot Tower in
it I don't see that I just wanted to give you a chance to say yeah I mean this like this is your uh if you have it back up on the screen this is your price range right you have 200,000 you have a paired sale that's facing and not facing then you go to 1.2 to
1.5 to 500,000 to 600,000 that is literally every household income and buyer you can think of in New Jersey right it covers the whole gamut so do you think do you think some of your comps were in stable neighborhoods like the neighborhood that we're talking about here I just missed it because
every neighborhood in Jersey City has had uh great increases in value to their property and I think that if you're just trying to cherry-pick different neighborhoods I don't think it's uh realistic I think he's answered my question thank you very much guys I would like to put Joe junr on for a
minute if you have anything else to say if you don't like I'm trying to go quick I know we have a we always go yeah we always go next time okay if we're coming back another day
what I'd like to do is is give my Witnesses a chance to look at theal [Music] okay I just I would have uh Mr Mel uh address some noise and then Mr SE
I guess and then we could finish you tonight okay overnight yeah looks that way you want on here you want the laptop I'm not thank you board appreciate it thanks
[Music] swe testimony truth truth I do my name is Matthew murel m r l l o and m murell for uh for the benefit of the board can you give your experience
and and uh expertise certainly um I have a bachelor's of Science in mechanical engineering with an emphasis in Acoustics from the University of Hartford I'm a licensed professional engineer in good standing New Jersey and nine other states I have provided expert witness testimony and Acoustics and noise control on over 200 applications
I've been admitted as an expert in the New Jersey and New York courts I I could keep going if I really want to bore you but so I'm I'm offering Miss Morel as an expert in Acoustics as an engineer and an expert in Acoustics thank you thank you so miss
Mel uh uh you're for the benefit of of of the board and and and uh the people here tonight uh you're a member or a principal in good friends sorry yes the name of the firm is Lewis good friend and Associates in Chester New Jersey yes so if the board remembers at uh in an
earlier hearing uh Mr Cella uh referred to a good friend and it was yeah so it was like is it a good friend or is that that's actually a company right so here is Mr Mel uh from good friend and he is he is the the one who has worked with Mr
Cella on numerous projects to address sound attenuation and acoustic issues so he's here um there's been some discussion about concerns about noise so i' I'd like you to uh address that for the board certainly um as the board is aware um and I will be brief I did not
issue a report and I don't have any pictures to put up so um what we did do is two things we looked at not only as the city is aware of the city and the state of New Jersey both have noise regulations they are comparable in what their limits are and the limits are
determined on two things one is the hour of the day so you have daytime and night time and that cut off is 10 p.m. so from 7:00 a.m. to 10: p.m. is the daytime and you flip that 10 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. is the night time the other thing that matters is what is the receiving
property use so in this case if we're looking at the worst case scenario with reference to noise we have a residential receiving property line and any noise that occurs after 1: p.m. and and that limit is 50 DBA that can be assessed at
any real property line so it could be assessed on the balcony of an adjacent property on the rooftop or it could be assessed at ground level so in order to address that um we looked at this potential application now there is because of as has been great testimony
to already there's no mechanical HVAC equipment on the roof so there's really no issue as far as mechanical equipment producing noise at any of adjacent buildings all ground equipment HVAC equipment and other things and dumpsters they will either be uh designed so that
they will meet the the applicable limits of the noise regulation or screened so therefore that they will not exceed the noise regulation in any way shape or form now the noise regulation has a lot of exceptions to them and I'm not going to go through all 14 or 16 of them but there are two that are very important to
to bring out the first of which is the unamplified human voice so if you have a neighbor on a patio or at a pool Terrace and there's no Amplified no me talking into a microphone that sound of someone talking even if it's relatively loud is
not subject to the limits of the noise regulation and the reason for that is if you have any type of gatherings Sports festivals things like that where people can just um make a lot of noise it's not subject to the code the other thing that is not subject to the code that's
relevant here is any type of vehicle on a public RightWay and we've had some testimonies as far as deliveries and trash and things that will take place on the public right away so those type of things would also not be subject to the noise regulation there are others but I'm not going to uh go through them with
you so if we look at the mechanical equipment we will design it so that they will meet the nighttime limits of the code and there has been some discussion as far as the rooftop amenity space of that that's being proposed now the rooftop amenity space as and I don't
have a site plan you've all seen it you have it in front of you the only outdoor area is is Facing East it doesn't face the neighboring property lines so there won't be any outdoor activities from that amenity space that will be um directly facing the neighboring
residential property lines the other is um the uh Penthouse unit which does has an out does have an outdoor patio uh but that Penthouse space is not designed as in my understanding to be an amenity space it's a rental unit so if someone
wants to rent that unit or purchase that unit and go out on their patio it would be just as if a neighbor had um neighboring voice on one side of the other so I don't anticipate that anything is going to from our property is going to exceed any of the noise
regulations from either the city or the state one of the thing that we did do is because one of the questions we often get is well how loud is 50 DBA well what I can tell you is we actually went out to the site um we have just recently been brought into this project so we did
measurements on February 10th we visited on where the parking lot is to the existing or the the where the bank used to be and we made a measurement for about 30 minutes and as you can imagine most of the noise is traffic related because it's winter you don't have any air conditioning units
which you would have in the summertime and these sound levels would be slightly higher but the sound levels range from about 53 DBA to 67 DBA at the ground level during the daytime hours then the daytime limit of the regulation is 65
DBA so the existing sounds at street level are comparable to what the city and the state's code are my engineer returned to the site at 10:00 at night repeated the same measurement 30 minutes same location and those sound levels
range from about 48 DBA to 60 DBA about 10 DB above the 50 DBA code and why that's important is while we're going to do everything we can so every piece of mechanical equipment that's going to go in and around this property will meet 50 DBA if the nighttime sound level in
February ranges between 48 to 60 DBA if we introduce a sound of 50 DBA or lower which is what we're committing to do you're not going to hear that it's going to be washed out in just the city noise in the block and that's a very brief summary of the I'd be happy to answer any questions in
specifics yes I do ah very quickly um so you're I know you're an acoustic engineer and that I'm going to give you a microphone get the joke awesome thank you very much I don't even know if it's on you're an acoustic engineer um can you say that sound waves are sometimes
additive and sometimes cancel each other out like wa ripples on a ripples on a pond all sound is additive except when one when one noise is outweighs the other okay all sound all cancel no um unamplified human voice boy I didn't
realize this you say you're going to comply with regulations but unamplified human voice of a large crowd isn't subject to the regulations am I understanding that correctly that is my testimony so if there's a big crowd and they're all making noise but there's no amplifier on their voices that's just
tough nuggies for the neighbors right your words not mine but I will say that there is no space where you could have a large crowd that would be directly adjacent to your nebor to your property your your client's property because the amenity space other than the pool which will be closed before 10 p.m. I would
imagine um the outdoor patio is on the opposite side of the building which has will be shielded by the actual space itself would it Shield as many human voices additive human voices if there was a party with 125 people there can you testify that it
would be shielded from our site because you've just said that we can't call the cops on you because it's it's exempt two things that you just stated that I did not say one is I did not say you couldn't call the cops could you could um you could always call for any noise violation or any but it's not a violation may I yes thank you second I
don't think you could put 125 people in your words on their patio okay I got that from the from the transcript um so I actually don't have anything more for you at this time thank you very much you're quite welcome uh I'll just I'm
sorry thank you I thank you for indulging me I I apologize just Mr seckler just to address uh uh the comments he he's the the um traffic engineer and the planner to address uh the comments that were made earlier and then we're
done yeah yes we got finish this yes I do s c KL R thank you and uh Mr seckler you were here earlier while Mr simoff testified
and when Mr St testified correct correct and you've been qualified as an expert in traffic engineering and planning at the prior meetings correct that's correct okay so could you give us the benefit of your thoughts on some of the comments they made or or at least try to
correct them for the record absolutely uh I'll start with some of the traffic comments I just want to put on the record that everything related to Maxwell Place the raising of the roadway any ballards yes no where the located
the radii uh design of the traffic signal and sidewalk was all based on comments by the city's either planning or engineering division none of that started from our office we were basically told how about you make the radii X so we drew that on the plan and
we've provided the city with all of those documents and as far as I believe we've addressed all outstanding City engineering and planning comments as it relates to the transportation areas around the building uh again if the city wishes to make any changes not have a
raised Maxwell change the radi so the bus could turn easier we have no problem doing that we were just following guidance that was provided to us at this time uh so again any of the concerns related that were raised by the traffic engineer about kind of circulation in around the building that was all uh
really um brought to us and was requested of us to put on the plan and that that's consistent with typical review agent comment letters that you're required to work with the agents post approval on any approval right correct and again I think all of those have the
general idea of improving The Pedestrian uh scale and the you know The Pedestrian experience uh but again we'd be happy to make whatever changes City engineering wants or City Planning wants to the you know infrastructure around the building I guess next this kind of goes
to both planning and traffic I just want to State on the record um and this was also within the uh plan memo uh that the city provided uh that we do not believe that any parking is required on site uh per ordinance City Planning staff agrees that there's
none required so we do not believe there's a variance I know Mr St had made illusions that parking could be required here based on his interpretation but as mine and obviously City staff that no parking is required and no no parking is necessary again we are providing parking
we think it is a useful amenity for the site but again we do anticipate the vast majority of people using the site would be coming via walking biking potentially by the bus or in the surrounding community so again we believe this site fits well within the location being at
the end of a walking or pedestrian only area but we do have those uh parking spaces in case people do drive to the site next um I will talk to uh Mr St did make mention of of the fact that there's no guidance within planning documents
regarding a building of close to this size I believe he also made mention and I think he alluded to the fact that this was talked about being a smallscale neighborhood center but within the master plan um in I believe it's chapter
4 it discusses neighborhood centers and talks about medium scale and is identified the following locations as medium scale neighborhood centers it'll be area around the MLK Light Rail Station The Junction Newark Avenue which would be the site the area where our
site's located and five corners are medium scale medium scale uses and development density per the planning documents is mixed use core surrounded by medium density up to eight stories residential developments has surrounding population of 50 to 150 people persons
per acre and it uh says that new and planned developments that can increase the area's population and impact the scale of the core is what is recommended as part of mediums scale neighborhood centers I recognize the zoning here is not eight stories but there is planning documents that speak to the Newark
Avenue Corridor having this higher level Heights and high higher level intensity Within These planning documents I believe um you know the master plan um document came after the NC zoning that has been established along this Corridor so it's possible that there'll be future
changes to this but I would State there is planning documents that look to higher level densities higher level Heights than the five stories that we're in but we are seeking a height variance absolutely for this application um going to the height variance um I would speak to at this
site and I think even Mr St uh uh spoke to the fact that this is I think the second largest lot I indicated was the second largest lot if you walk from Newark From the Path basically all the way to our site or if you include the saffron that would be the largest one we'd be the largest until you reach that
site so I do believe this is a unique site I think that's important because of the use that we're seeking a hotel is and this was my testimony earlier is not a use you could consider on lots that are 2500 square ft which is what the minimum lot sizes and the and a vast
majority of the lots that you would walk along New York Avenue so why would the zoning ordinance allow for a hotel when the lots are so small our lot being unique and being you know considerably larger than the minimum and again the second largest in this whole Corridor again is is a reason why this is
uniquely suited to support this type of use specifically this type of use and again we did talk about the location of the site being at the end of The Pedestrian Corridor being a a focal point helping you know bring people all the way into the uh area at the end of
this this business Corridor along New York Avenue I think is important and lastly uh the building itself this is a site that we're looking to maintain the building on the property now I know Mr St did not uh indicate or believe that this site has any type of
historical significance at all and again I am not a historical expert but I do believe there was a letter from Maggie O'Neal who's the principal historic preservation specialist and it was addressed to the board uh dated February 27th 2025 uh I believe it was submitted for
the record but just I want to indicate that the I believe it's the first sentence States 2011 Newark Avenue has been determined by HPC staff to retain historic architectural and cultural significance under criteria A and C so again I'm not a historical specialist
but she seems to indicate that we meet conditions A and C you gave today's date is that accurate I believe that was States uh that might actually not be accurate I believe on there's
a it's accurate is accurate yeah I updated it today and it auto updated gotcha okay I know I checked the link and it did say today's date um it also states that um um it acknowledges the proposed plans of the building do alter
the building but does not create an adverse effect to the building or its Integrity it IND and I looked at purpose a or criteria a means that it's associated with events that have been made that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history and criteria C is an
embodies distinctive characteristics of a type period or method of construction so again I'm not a historical specialist but it's clear that there are staff that has made this or considered this historical also in the phase one historic site survey of the city of
Jersey city in 1985 listed this as a contributing building to the lower New York Avenue historic district so again I do believe that this does meet the um purposes of the mlu as itates relates to um U maintaining historic structures I do also think that the fact that we are
maintaining this and keeping this building does add to positive criteria but also makes this a unique site this makes it a particular unique site because we have this fairly historic building and I know that I'm not the architect uh but I do believe we are maintaining a lot more of the facade
than a single window I believe coule windows were being modified so they could be utilized as you know kind of like a door pass through area but the the uh existing entrance area the facade itself the windows themselves again although they're not being maintained 100% I believe two of them are being
maintained as is and the other ones are being modified but keeping the look of the historic building which again I think is something that's been requested of the applicant um uh by by City Planning and we are looking to comply with that as well so again just kind of
uh reiterate our positions we do believe this site is uniquely suited we do believe this is a site that does meet the uh purposes of zoning as it relates to uh maintaining historic properties uh we do believe that no parking variant is necessary as part of this application uh
and again as I stated earlier regarding the traffic engineering all the external design as it relates to the transportation patterns for pedestrians or uh vehicles or buses were all based on um City Planning and City engineering directives Matt just one more issue a
question uh if you could address there there's been a lot of talk about the views uh and the view from the rooftop uh amenity area which um depending on whether it's going to be an a of right building or or the proposed building there will be an obstruction of that
view correct correct there are no windows specifically on the saffron building that face our property there are kind of Courtyard building Courtyard units that some have Windows or little balconies but all of those are within those five stories if we and na of right
building five stories on our property if you walked out any of those balconies all you'd see was our building anyway so again so so regardless of what you build here a project on our this property will not block any views from any of the units within the saffron is that correct
any individual build any individual unit of the building is no more impacted as it relates to its view from our proposed building versus any as of right building that could be constructed here okay that's all I'm thank you yeah I have a
question yeah and do you want to cross examine this yes oh can can I commissioner can I ask him to address the one thing you had a question about Maxwell Street and backing out I think there was a little bit of confusing and I I I want Matt to
to address how how that's going to work because it's it's not it's not going to work the way I believe uh the other experts said or some people may be interpreting it the backing out is no different than if you're backing out of a single family driveway onto a street you're just backing to get your car into
the street and then you will pull forward down Maxwell what we indicated is that obviously backing out of a garage position you may have limited site distance so what we are uh proposing is since the garage is always uh always has staff that that staff
would basically just kind of help as if you were you know if I'm renting a U-Haul and I'm having someone kind of back me into a spot you know you wave them in make sure that they have clearance and then they would pull forward but people are not backing their car or vehicle down Maxwell they're just backing out of the garage and then they
will pull forward out of the out of the street you for you will go forward towards Maxwell towards coold correct you go forward towards Kohls it's just backing as if you were coming out of a a private driveway uh in a residential Community you got to back yourself out and pull forward but but you won't be
backing up all the way up to Jersey Avenue no no you would back you know till your till the vehicle clears its front you know the the front bu is clear all right and then you turn the wheel left and you pull out forward yeah because I had this idea was going to go all the way up Jersey Avenue and it will you know probably hit a pedestrian
that's cross 100% yeah and that's why when we were saying that's why I I Envision we're backing onto Maxwell we're not backing down Maxwell I think that's the that's the difference okay great um I can can I continue I I have another question the last time you spoke about the traffic uh survey that you did
you did it in June you said I wanted to find out that you also do it in September and October because that's when the school starts and I know that I lived in Jersey City all my life so I know traffic triples when schools are out especially at in the morning at 3:00
so did you do a study then so we did again our counts were June 6th and 7th so school was in session in fact from my experience when you get nice June weather you got kids you got adults you got everyone out in the street so our counts were when school is in session in June okay um so while it wasn't in
September it was nice days and people walking around can I ask what time you conducted these studies uh 7:00 to 9: in the morning and 4: to 7 in the evening on the 6th and the 7th okay all right thank you I have a I have a couple questions you don't mind um I don't know
if it came up the the bus stop is on Newark Avenue right right in front of the place was there talk of maybe or what do you think uh if the bus stop was moved around to the Jersey have new side of the building cuz already you have the fire hydrant there keeping it from that
Maxwell Street walkway there'll be no cars and no obstructions so people could see whatever they need to see walking on that street would that be something beneficial what to consider obviously I'd want to make sure that it works from a city engineering
and planning point of view I think one of the benefits that we had was that I believe we were creating a slight indent yeah we we definitely it definitely can move that location curious if that would actually be better
I'm just throwing at you because it takes it alleviates that corner and those turns on nework and it puts it there's and the light you're not waiting for the light to change while the bus is still sitting there picking people CU you have two buses right like right one just makes that turn on Jersey like it always does and stops right there exactly the balance usually is whether
you want your bus before the light or after the light typically you want it after so that when the bus is then loaded it could go the only thing I would need to ensure obviously the city engineer would want to make sure is when the bus makes the turn it doesn't quite easily get lined up against the curb
immediately you know it's got a swing and then pull in at the end it is further down at the end anyway so that's why I think it could do it it end closer to Maxwell by time it gets fully lined up yep so it made the turn and it's out of everyone's way so that was just a thought the other one the other one's
kind of crazier but it had to do with the valley parking I was just curious uh obviously you come in on the nework Avenue side to have your car Valley parked right that's correct you drop off on nework Avenue at the entrance yeah there's a um and then someone drives it around to the back and puts it away you
know like they have in um down Atlantic City in a c casinos you drop your car off in the front but you pick it up in a different location so it's like right on that driver is it is there any way like you could pick your car up when you're leaving the premises the valley is
actually in the back and exit so you don't have to go all the way down around and up Cole Street as someone mentioned before I was just curious cuz I don't it's one car at a time and sounds like and because of the mechanism you guys have there anyway yeah it's it's not a bad thought I I obviously from an
operations point of view you know the valet person would have to get the car ready you know get lined up and get it ready back from Maxwell Street instead of going all the way around the block and coming back to the front dropping off in the front I sort understand right but exiting you're exiting and I was just curious if that was you got no
problem with that again I was just curious if that was even doable it is and we would make it a condition that the pickup would have to occur inside the garage we don't want is that on Maxwell a car waiting on Maxwell and loading up and then blocking that I mean you guys will have to you know regulate
that but I think it'll be easier than sending cars three blocks around and back up New York Avenue to get in the front on exiting and nowadays you know a lot of this valet is done you got a an app or a link and you basically say I want my car in 10 minutes yeah whatever it is yeah um I have question for you um
when they turn on Maxwell the trucks to make the deliveries Etc there is a from the photos that I'm looking at the pictures there's a fire hydrant and a tree now they're talking about a wide swing to make it into um Maxwell Street
off of Jersey Avenue there um is that going to be difficult with the fire hydrant there is that fire hydrant remaining is that tree coming down how are we what's what's in the plans for that so the fire hydrant I would need to
look more at I believe it may need to be relocated and it might just be need to relocated just because of for ease of of use just get it moved out of the way um trees I know that we do have a series of tree uh trees along our Frontage I
believe we have four tree pits uh that are proposed along our Frontage I believe they are all outside of the Turning uh radius that any uh vehicle would make so I don't have an issue with the tree the hydrant probably makes sense if if we can move it to slide it over uh so it's not right at the curb
okay and has there been any discussion about the the um the lights the polls that they were talking about before that were they were out of the sight of a person coming in a particular direction um which would help guide them down the street around the street you're
referring to on Maxwell Street uh no I it was corner nework and Jersey yeah so let me explain so we are widening the sidewalk the traffic signals as it relates to vehicular traffic the pole is going to stay in the same spot and the arm is in
the same spot what you're looking at when you're driving you're looking at the red yellow green indication over the roadway that's still going to be over the roadway it's not going to change its location at all that's what you what you're going to see the item that you'd be looking off the
road for would be the walk and don't walk signs that a pedestrian they would still be looking straight ahead and seeing it it's just instead of being right at the curb it's going to be a little further back however if the city wishes us to relocate that pedestrian pole we can move that closer to the curb
if that's what city engineering wants but the signal that manages the traffic that's located in the perfect position because again no one's looking at where the pole is located everyone's looking at where the red yellow green is looking that's not moving yeah let me ask you a question um you mentioned this again
about the extension of the sidewalk why are you extending the sidewalk isn't that big enough it was requested by I I don't know if it's City engineering or planning because it's such a city engineering such a highly pedestrian area it allows for more pedestrians to wait in the corner and it makes the
crossing shorter so the people that are waiting to cross to go towards the nework um The nework Pedestrian area they have a shorter path with the long wider sidewalk to cross the street so they're not in the street as long when they want to cross the street well won't
that imp won't that impede the traffic then that we're talking about as far as going back and forth the traffic will then get worse so again it there's the tradeoff is that in one hand and again this is one of the vision zero initiatives is that with that type of
Curbing and that type of design you don't have people taking the turn as fast so it's people could see pedestrians it's safer for pedestrians having the radi the way that the city engineer wants to see it because the vehicle's making right turns they're going slower yeah and the pedestrians have less Crossing distance that said
with any positive thing for pedestrians usually it's a negative thing for a vehicle so it's a little less throughput for the cars the cars are going slower they may get less cars through the traffic light at a time so it's the trade-off and again just doesn't make sense I don't want to I don't want to play in the middle I'm not the judge
whatever City engineering wants yeah that's what we typically follow um I don't want to put one over the other I let City staff decide doesn't make sense but that's it's okay okay um I just have one more quick thing and as far as deliveries go I mean
it's always a kind of a pet peeve growing up here in JY City and seen it everywhere but um I would think when it comes to not just Maxwell streets but yeah Maxwell Street when it comes to deliveries and everything else that this would just be totally coordinated in a way that deliveries come at certain
times I mean not having deliveries during Russia why kids are going to school and that really becomes a bigger problem and even people leaving with their cars all on that same street you know delivery that really is where everything comes in you know scheduling and making sure that those things are
coordinated very well and again with this type of user where you're going to have let's say regular Linens delivery and you're going to have a reg like you can get on regular times versus when you're you know uh a small Deli and you're getting the delivery whenever the truck shows up for soda you get this is this is going to be coordinated and
again in urban environments you know you typically have restrictions you know if you're in hobok and it might be there at 6:00 in the morning because that's the only time Washington Street is open here we're going to we could coordinate especially those regular deliveries okay um I think an you have
to I just have two questions um so one is uh you said the very you you addressed the various planning uh Department uh physical changes twice the beginning and kind of at the end and you
said you'll go back if if you guys are convinced that Ben says this isn't so good you'll go back um my question is do you have an opinion was the existing what you proposed better than what the city was asking you to do or was what the city was asking
you to do at least better than what you were originally proposing I'm not going to disagree with City staff uh since they're the reviewers here uh I do believe that this is an area where I would promote pedestrian um safety because of the amount of uh pedestrians in this area so
I do agree with the city's decision to increase the radi at the intersection in terms of Maxwell I really don't have any opinion on whether it should be raised or not I think it's honestly I think it's fine the way it is but I understand um the city's thought on potentially
raising the grade of Maxwell okay I'm going to ask Mr sof to look at the existing Preity conditions because I think they may be worse in terms of what he's looking at um you mentioned the historicity of the bank um
but my understanding is that you are not saying that this building is necessary to preserve the bank correct and I don't believe that's the position of the HPC either I was just indicating that I do believe that
um this is a site that can um meet the purposes of planning as it relates to a historical site and how we're you know um because because you are saving it that's one of the purposes plan great thank you very much that's it where are we now we we're done
with our rebuttal okay all right do you have uh okay at this point um of time can can I can can I ask a question I just want to ask one question no I'm I'm not well I was just wondering are you going to come back with the
architect next time we meet or when CU I would there was a question with the architectural plan that I wanted to ask and I'm just wondering will he return or is this is one shot because I remember last time he didn't come in I I think the board still has that point in the
application where you get to ask questions of anybody okay um we do have I mean I have a few other questions but at protocol we normally have the um Community um come up and make statements and then we ask questions of everyone and then we have the city planner um can
I just get an idea of how many people are here to speak uh for against about oh Jes sure well yeah she didn't get enough but sure if you have a question for the witness certainly yes come on up no
no I'm hard of hearing minutes at a separate time yes yes do you I do Eliza fry f r y uh I rent at 200 Christopher Columbus so on the same
block and who do you have a question for I have a question for the planner who is just up yeah I just wanted to ask what is the considerations of the size of the truck that we mentioned exiting onto Kohl's I know we talk about turning in but that's where I park my car sometimes right at the end of Kohl's that's a
one-way very tight Street I do not see a large truck on a very congested Street being able to make that 90° left turn without hitting cars right so in terms of the size of the truck and I just want to put on the record it's an su3 which
is basically a 30 foot truck so it is a little bit larger than let's say a Amazon ups but it's not a tractor trailer it's not a separate trailer yeah it's like a small moving truck so it's I know because I moved in and the truck couldn't move in there we had to move in
on the other on the street on you couldn't you were turning from coal from Maxim on to Kohl's or you were turning from CO's onto was not able to move in on Maxwell alley because of the turn tight turn on coal so to be yeah parked
on coal itself okay I we we' have to take I'd have to take a look to see that turn being made um we only looked at the turning into maxel but we definitely could look at the usually the just so you know the the left turns are usually easier to make than right turns which is why the right turn on max well was what I deemed to be critical but we could
take a look at the turn that that's also is this the same time I could make a two-minute testimony or is that separate day well we're going to hold out comments because I think we have to come back we have a lot of people that left and want to make comments so just want to make sure I still have an up yes you will yes because that was a question um
okay so normally we would have the public come up and you I know that so many people left so we're going to have to come back and I believe uh we have other questions I know I have some other questions um but at this time I think we need to have Maggie our city planner because I don't think Maggie will be
making it when we come back and you'll see [Laughter] why yeah I appreciate you guys being willing to take this out of order um I am not going to make it to the next meeting so I'd like to finish one board
project um all right so I am the principal historic preservation specialist for the city I did want to put some testimony on the record tonight concerning the historic status of this building as well as our staff review of the proposed project um so um as was
referenced in the planner testimony um I did prepare a memo for the board's review this evening it has been uploaded to the portal part of the reason why I'm here is that I made some light editing to that memo today which is why the date has been updated today and that's also why I'm here to put it on the record because you did not receive it with
advanced notice of the meeting um so 2011 New York Avenue is the former Trust Company of New Jersey Building it was constructed in 1928 um and it is in considered to be in a Spanish Renaissance style this building is identified in the phase 1
historic resource survey for Jersey City this uh building is a contributing building to the lower Newark AV historic district which is not a designated District it is an eligible District it was found to be eligible at the local level as part of that Phase 1 survey and
the New Jersey historic preservation office found that historic district to be eligible at the state level in 1990 this building is not designated however we do categorize it as a historic resource um historic resource is defined in Our Land Development ordinance but it is essentially a
building that retains historic architectural or cultural um significance as defined by our ordinances um sorry I'm a little bit out of breath for obvious reasons um in the phase 1 historic
resource inventory um there is a brief description of the building we have reviewed that description of the building done in 1984 comparatively to today there is very little alteration to the building it retains a large amount of historic Integrity um if Newark the
lower Newark AV historic district were to be designated um we have no plans to do that by the way um but if it were going to be designated we would likely assess that this building would be considered a key contributing building to that historic district due to that high level of
Integrity um that being said the plans that are proposed for this building we do find meet the standards for historic pres positive criteria for historic preservation the applicant is proposing a substantial Rehabilitation of the
building um and I disagree with the um testimony this evening that they're only saving one one window um we spent a significant amount of time as staff work working with the applicant to preserve as many features on this building as physically possible part of the reason
it may seem like only one window is staying intact is because they are making alterations to other windows and we wanted to leave one window completely intact so that it could be considered reversible and meet the Secretary of the Interior standards other than that the applicant is
preserving the entire facade of the building they are making minimal alterations in terms of removals to incorporate it into the new construction struction aspect of the project um I know this board sees quite a few preservation related projects outside of designated districts like this um and
you guys are used to seeing more of a facade ectomy style where they're keeping just a couple feet of a facad or 10 ft of a facade or something the applicant is not proposing to do that here they are keeping a significant portion of the building um and that is
come as many years of working with the applicant trying to get it to the point where we are keeping large portions of the building so we do think that the building meets positive criteria for historic preservation um and I'm happy to answer any questions that you may
have okay that being said if you guys don't have questions on the historic aspect of it um if when you do get around to voting on this project um there are recommended conditions that if the board is inclined to approve the
project and I'm not I'm not making a recommendation on the project itself I'm simply stating that it meets historic preservation criteria but if you do approve the project there are recommended conditions that are um in my memo you guys have adopted conditions like this in the past I do just want to point out um there are five conditions
they are uh standard conditions they are things that you guys have seen in the past for historic preservation projects um I do just want to specifically point out condition number four which is HPC staff shall review and sign both the signature plans and the construction documents prior to permitting to confirm
conformance with the approved plans and shall be provided physical material samples for their review and approval um we do ackn like usually HPC has a higher standard of plan that we see um my board typically gets construction documents
this condition is to reflect to make sure that um what you guys are seeing here when they progress to that phase of plan it matches this and that we are actually approving all of the preservation that is being proposed to happen um so again that is part of this
memo that if you when you get to a vote if this is something you would approve I would ask that you guys adopt these conditions as part of a resolution okay thank you thank you guys thank you good luck yeah thank you thank you okay um so I think at this time um
we um would have to reschedule to come back to give everyone the opportunity to speak to listen to what people have to say and then ask questions that we may have based on the comments from the public and other com other questions that I met have and other people may
have and then we would vote we'll vote then we would vote but next meeting is Thursday March 6 Thursday next next Thursday let's get it done come back next Thursday March no experts we're done with all of that we
just be public comment we would need the experts here to ask questions but there would be no other pres the March 6 agenda's already been published already that one already has items ready ready to go so this one we'll have to just communicate with the applicants the
opposing attorney okay to kind of determine what would be a more suitable date because that one is just not available okay okay just throwing something out there maybe list it on March 6 to carry it and then in the meantime we can maybe between now and
March 6th we can accommodate another special meeting date yeah I mean that would be something we would have to discuss right I don't know you know it's a quick turnaround uh to to get a a date among all of us but well it's really just trying to compete
for the room um so it's kind of that that's kind of what led to this this state and so it's a little bit more difficult sometimes because there are other meetings that need to be conducted here so I'll just have to communicate with them to and communicate with uh our
staff to see what would be a more suitable date well for the moment we'll put it on for March 6 okay this is a holding date everybody will know it's on March 6 that they can look on the portal and'll say it's adjourned to a okay yes the
date that we all know and just a reminder that the meeting will start at 6 o'clock starting in March all the meetings will be at six o'clock oh thanks I did not know you didn't know that okay me Chuck I want to get to bed
early okay thank you for your time okay rep oh yes yes yes yes we got resolutions yeah we do okay um at this time we have some uh
resolutions that we need to memorialized do not get up yet I want to make sure they bring back just uh just see what we have here that's what but I want to make sure he said he was he said yeah he said yes okay cuz I need that man there I
want to see that picture second okay I'd rather stay finish okay so the first uh two resolutions we have to memorialize the first is case D
2024 00007 Timothy carer and Roberta carer the address was 659 uh Jersey Avenue that was a approval for a c variance that was heard on December 12th presid on December 12th
was uh acting chair aroyo and Commissioners Burns Baron shadid Bole and Zi that application passed six in favor none opposed osed all in favor of memorializing that I the next one was
also on December 6th same six Commissioners same six votes six in favor none opposed this case was Z 22-21 the applicant was 445 Jersey Avenue SP LLC the address was
443 d447 Jersey Avenue that was an application for a preliminary and major uh final site plan with c and d variances and as I said that passed six in favor none opposed all in favor of
memorializing and the next two uh occurred on February 6th present February 6th was uh chairwoman Coy Commissioners aroyo shadid Allan Burns and baron the
first case was Sarah laer I'm tired uh that case was z20 24-23 that the address was 311 varic street that was a c variance for rear yard stair stair encroachment that passed six and favor none opposed all in
favor oforal I and same thing for uh the next case uh again February 6 same Commissioners this is case z 2024
0062 the applicant was 3487 Kevin Kennedy Boulevard Inc it was a d uh use variance uh I'm sorry the address was 3489 Kennedy Boulevard again that pass
Six in favor none opposed all in favor of memorializing that okay at this time I make a motion to adjourn the meeting can I get a second all favor I cut