Okay. I am calling to order the wage and personnel meeting from um for Monday, March 16th at 6:00 pm. Um the meeting is being recorded by Zoom. Anyone intending to make an audio video recording of this meeting should notify the chair at this
time. I don't see anything. Uh currently uh we have a quorum. Uh Lorraine is here. I'm here. Uh Derek is not in attendance as of yet. He may show up. Um the uh items may be taken or at the
discretion of the chair. >> They show up. >> Sorry about that. But Siri is getting aggressive. >> Maybe she can do the minutes. >> Yeah, if you could say record. really good. Yeah. Okay. >> You just have to let them know you're recording. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> All right. Um >> start again. >> Yeah. Let's Let's get uh Tina, thank you for coming. I know last weekend was a last week meeting was uh kind of a bit of a hassle, but uh I hope you're feeling better. >> Thank you.
>> Um and uh we'll take your update. >> Sure. Um so the adult library reference librarian adult reference librarian uh position has been posted. So recruiting for that. Um there will be
two openings for an assistant harbor master ideally starting by May. Um >> are these people that tend to come back and do the same position summer times? >> Well, it's a year- round position. >> Oh, okay. So,
>> two of them are um >> Sorry about that. >> No, that's okay. >> Two of them. >> Two of the assistants >> are Yep. They're resigning. >> Sorry about that. >> That's okay. Um April 15th to May 15th is our benefits open enrollment for town and school employees and for retirees
younger than 65. And um we got the rate increase. It's a 10% rate increase over our current for health. Um, no increase to dental. The town employees currently have dental. Um, school and retirees do not.
Um, >> or will that be split in the same way? >> 6040. Yeah. >> Um, and you will be having to handle enrollment for schools too. >> Oh, yeah. I always do. Yeah. >> I just wanted to make that announce.
Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, everyone's everyone schools, town, um, everyone's negotiating contracts right now, but as it stands right now, um, >> you know, the >> What about for Silver Lake?
>> Not Silver Lake, but for Kingston Elementary. Yeah, I don't know about Silver Lake. I don't do Silver Lake. Just Well, I don't do any of it. The school department does, but um, the ones that concern us are Kingston Intermediate and Kingston >> as far as enrolling or changing plans.
That's those >> um >> odd question though. >> Yeah. >> If Silver Lake does >> Silver Lake or KES >> Yeah. If Silver Lake does the enrollment for Silver Lake. >> Okay. Uh the the school department does
the enrollment for Silver Lake, right? >> For the high school and the middle school because those are those are Silver Lake employees. >> I was wondering about the middle school. So they school the school department takes care of all three. >> Yeah. Well, all too they the school department takes care of um
the school board, school committee, whatever they're called. Um they negotiate all the contracts of the district. Okay. >> All right. So, the Silverlake district, Kingston and uh Clinton Halifax. >> Yeah.
>> The employees that physically come to work to Kingston Elementary and Kingston Intermediate, those are town employees. And so I administer their open enrollment, their uh so anything related to benefits, um right their, you know,
ultimately unemployment, workers comp. Um what's the other one? Oh, when they become new employees, like the district hires them, lets me know. I we onboard them. I don't do it, but the town does their physical payroll. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know I've asked that before, but
a long time ago. Um, so on the same flavor there's with negotiations there's no cola that's been discussed yet. Um and then I had sent an email but I think it's on here but uh we can have further discussion about it but um the
sealer of measures >> weights weights and measures um as I had said earlier in the year that Kristen is retiring at the end of the fiscal year and um in reviewing over the year first with Keith and then with Scott uh Scott
and I are making the recommendation to move the stipen for the sealer position to $8,000 for the year with no cola if a cola gets applied at all. So that's a I think like $1,900. >> So we'd have to vote to approve that.
Bring it down to 8,000 flat. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So what is the current second? >> I think 9 >> 9,783. >> Yeah. >> 873. >> Yeah. >> Oh, 973. >> Yeah. What did I say? >> Says 873.
>> 9,783. Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Pap's good. >> So, >> okay, >> that's what I got. >> All right. Thank you. Yeah, that deals with you guys anyway.
>> All my other fun you can't know about. >> All right. >> Want to share? >> All right, Tina. Thank you. >> You're welcome. Excellent. >> Appreciate it. Um, I think next we'll just go into the discussion items. Um, so there's a couple of follow-ups from
the bylaw. Um, most of it was supposed to be dealt with uh last meeting, but we never got there. And um, so unfortunately I'm going to have to go through it a little bit now. There may be some summation we're going to need because quite frankly, I don't remember. >> And I do have them here in email, but I
don't remember. So >> Derek was saying, >> "Hi, Derek. I'm not coming. >> Oh, yeah. We're We're on now. >> You're not in the waiting room. We're I'm looking at it right now.
>> Are you using last week's agenda? Did it change? >> No, the Zoom information saved. Thank you. >> Okay. Well, we're because we're we're recording. We're We have it up, but I don't see you there. Maybe try again to see while I hold on.
>> Yeah. Let's see. >> Yeah. Let's see if it pops up. There you are. We're letting you in. All right. Thanks. >> Okay. >> Thanks, Eric. I appreciate the call. >> You're you're muted. Yeah, I was like, I
don't know what's going on. Um, I will probably be off camera a fair amount because I'm dealing with uh a kid who has pink eye here. So, okay. >> Um, basically, uh, Tina just gave a quick update and, um, short version is
the adult librarian positions been posted. Uh, there'll be two openings for the assistant harbor master. Those have been posted. >> Not yet. >> Not yet, but they were coming up. And then uh April 15th to May 15th is the open enrollment for the benefits. Um
and um there's a 10% rate increase on the medical side, no increase in dental. And um there was this small discussion here where Tina's responsibility is all the town employees including the school uh employees that work in the two town
buildings. Um the Kingston Elementary and Kingston intermediate team is also responsible for onboarding them. So, that's where we were. We were just about to go into the discussion items that are on the agenda. Do you have a copy of the agenda, Dar? >> Uh, I do. Yes. Um, real quick on the um
on the benefits increase, um, does the 10 is the 10% like the sticker price for each plan or is the 10% just the overall increase that we're expecting? Because if I recall, this was the year that
everybody was going to be mandated to go to the high deductible plan and the prior town administrator had indicated that we were anticipating some savings there. >> So, no, we never had worked in that everyone would be mandated to go to the high deductible plan. Fiscal year 26 was
the first is was the last year of a three-year phase out where for just the town employees, not schools and not retirees younger than 65, um the two highest costing plans on Blue
Cross were phasing out. So the traditional plan and the rate saver plan, which were the two highest costs for both the employee and the town, anyone that any of those town employees that were on that for fiscal year 26, they needed to come off and their options were the high deductible with
Blue Cross or um a benchmark uh uh plan with Blue Cross. And so that's been done. Um you know, whether people choose to change uh come this open enrollment, I don't know. But um that's that's where that's at. that had happened for fiscal
year 26. >> Okay. And is there any um is there any color from Mayflower why the rate increase was 10%. The Kaiser Family Foundation was was quoting six to 7% across the board for Massachusetts. >> So
I haven't even in public sector I haven't heard anything that low but um >> it's public information online. Um so um the original the original um so the average across the board not for
municipalities just for the industry for healthcare increases was supposed to be like 19%. And then the um the broker for Mayflower said Mayflower all of the towns right so uh was looking at
probably a 15% and so >> I'm sorry 19% where where's that data coming from? >> Um so that I mean I've seen that across Massachusetts I've seen it across the United States just for healthcare in
general as an increase for that. Um >> I mean is that I have not seen that data anywhere and I've been looking at this. So if you can share that that would be great because that's something that I can bring to the finance committee because you know obviously >> this line item is over 10% of the budget. So that's something that we have
a lot of concern about. >> Okay. Um so yeah so like I was saying so I I will find uh how Mayflower uh gave that to its members and then the um the uh broker for Mayflower
said we're probably you know it's a 15% increase. It might even been 15.9. I'm not I have to remember my numbers but um so then every year what Mayflower does is they run to see how much they want to take from their reserve to make that lower. And so they got to a 10% increase
um which I think uses like $6 million of their reserve to get there. >> Okay. >> Does that >> Yeah, that that answers my question. Yeah. Mhm. >> It's just I I mean this I I think it's
no surprise that this is obviously frustration across the board where we we have the we have the town budgets where from a finance committee perspective we're incredibly concerned about increases and then we have something where we want to do the right thing for our employees but at the same
period of time it's just um you know these these increases and I I I will say this and I think this is something that abroad that needs to be happen a broader discussion. I'm sure I sound like Carl Pike here where the these increases as a country are just not sustainable.
>> I agree. I agree. And you know, I think I've talked about it here, but I've talked about it when I've talked about healthcare. Um, the cost of healthcare for any employer that I've been with, but you know, now with town, um, you know, when when employers set out to do
plan changes, plan offering changes, you know, the hope is for a cost savings, but the reality is um to mitigate future increases, right? So, if we still had if the town employees, again, the schools currently still have it, but if the town
employees were still on those higher plans, you know, we had um and I tend I tend to know the what the employees paying more than what the town is playing, but just understand it's 60% for the town and 40% for the employee. You know, the the numbers for the most
expensive Blue Cross family plan was close to $700 a paycheck. So, $1,400 a month for an employee to pay. And that would have been with a 10% increase, right? And so now, you know, that grouping of people um are paying more
like 450, you know, so 900 a month. And so there's still a 10% increase, right? Um but it's on a much lower number. And so obviously that translates to the town um the town cost as well. And so yeah, I mean I think that there you know could there be future ways to help mitigate
cost. Yes. And on globally to your point the cost of healthcare is crazy and so something needs to be done globally and it's really just employers trying to you know put band-aids on because if it gets spilled down that way. One of the things, one of the things that you know
has was talked about um and again this is industry beyond beyond just Mayflower is you know um at least Blue Cross and Harvard but other other health plans as well. You know those GLP1s were a big cost factor. Um, and so, uh, Blue Cross,
Harvard, and like I said, other other, uh, benefit, um, or health insurance companies, they, um, stopped covering them. And so, if it was >> injections, >> if it was for weight loss, not if it was for diet one you're talking about. Okay. All right.
>> So, well, however you can take, I guess you can take it various ways now. >> Yeah. Yeah. and that, you know, the those healthcare companies ended that December 30th of 25. Um, we're on a plan that ends June 30th, so we were covered through there. But what all those health
plans said to all their employers was, "You're welcome to cover it. It's just going to be a rider." And um, you know, some of the numbers that came across if if employers chose to have that as a rider was like a 40% increase because they're expensive, right? And the other
piece of that is um now that medication that medication you a patient could go directly to the pharmaceutical company. They don't need the middle person to do it. Um and so when they when that happens, you know, a health insurance company might be charging $1,100 for the
same product an employee can buy direct for, you know, $450. Again, not cheap, but um you know, that's one of the ways employers and future costs just globally that are trying to not have to look at that to say if this is a weight loss piece, there are other mechanisms for
that and you can go directly to market like you can't with other things. So >> interesting situation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm so bl and I know we're not going to solve healthcare right now the three of us with so >> no it's not a child
>> yeah I mean yeah it's a big >> understand Derek while you were talking um and Tina as well I just went into um uh Gemini and just asked what the average increase for health care was for 2027
>> uh cost projection >> um the for 2027 healthcare spending in the US is projected increase by 5.7%. Then it gives you the Medicare breakdown and then it talks about private health insurance. It says some specific union
and employer projections suggest total premium increases could reach as high as 10.8%. >> For 27 >> for 27 >> calendar. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So in other words, this is what's coming right. >> So you know half of what we're doing is going to be in 27.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. So, you know, um, so I'm I I'm I want to say I'm not surprised. I agree with you 100% that it is not anything that increases by um anywhere from 5 to 10% with no increase in revenue is
unsustainable. >> And um the uh you know I I can understand the problem and and I can see where the impact is on the budget as well. And you know I sat in that chair that you were in for three years. So, I saw it even back then, uh, but certainly
not to the degree you're seeing it now because the dollars are just much bigger. That's what it boils down to. >> You know, 10% of $1,000 is a lot more than 10% of $100. >> Right. Right. >> So, >> um, you know, and that's and that really is because we we didn't add,
>> you know, another thousand properties in the town that we can we we added 400. >> Right. Right. And I mean, we're we're limited to two and a half% and then even when you add on new growth and that gets us to four and a half percent. Okay,
great. I still have a delta now of I I you know five let's call it 5% that we can't make up otherwise. And by I I mean the town. >> Yeah, understood. No, >> but um yeah. So, but but yeah, I'm happy
happy to move on to to the next item. I did want >> I think it's a good good topic to have. Derek, be honest with you. >> I do have a question. Has the town ever considered changing the 6040 >> to 50/50?
>> Um, when we did market analysis, 6040 is low >> is low. >> Like employers are covering 70 and 80%. >> Okay. Thank you. And I mean towns, not >> I mean this is I mean Kingston is fairly small in the in the big scheme of things
but >> which which is why you know when you get in with a a Mayflower at least it's you know a bunch of towns and you know >> No, I just didn't know. I didn't know. You never I mean, you know, some employers like we did this at a former employer again in different industries, >> but you know, when we were starting to
see, okay, these numbers are crazy and you know, as much as we try to like an employer can only do so much >> or even even, >> you know, consumers can only do so much if the cost of the cost like we're not setting the cost of, you know, an MRI. Um
um you know some employers work to go to um being self-funded which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It depends on how big your pool is, right? >> Yeah. So >> yeah, we don't have >> Yeah. My my husband's company is is self-funded and it can be great for them
some years, but all it takes is >> a couple of unicorn medical events and it's a bad year. >> Bad year. Right. Even when even when a company takes out like stoploss insurance, the cost of a stop-loss insurance, you know, it it's less. But
then once you have those claims where stop like any insurance where stop loss is like, oh, you cost us more than we made on you. Okay, next year your premiums a cajillion dollars, you know, >> so the 6040 is a good >> Yeah. >> Uh well, hired before July 1, 2003,
towns typically covered 80%. >> Right. and um hired on or after July 1, 2003, towns typically cover 75%. >> Right? And that's what we hear. And again, you know, we have that medical opt- out stipen. So that helps on the town side with um retention and
recruitment. Um but again, we haven't addressed the 6040 because if we start So if we start saying, "All right, we'll cover 70%." Then it's still just a cost of the town, right? You know, >> state state law requires municipalities to contribute 50. >> Yeah.
>> Right. Right. Because even with the dental insurance, we had to in order to even be part of the group, we had to do at least 50, but we kept it at the 6040. >> Um, just so it's cleaner. >> Just anformational question. >> Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you. >> Yeah. Derek, anything else?
Um the one other thing I wanted to chat about and we can move this wherever you you want to as chair was uh just some thoughts I had about uh the vacation conversation we had had with the limits on vacation for seniority um or or rather the the push back that
we're that we're seeing on the fact that someone who's coming in at a more senior position is getting the same vacation as someone who who comes in at a more junior position. >> Mhm. Um, can we >> um what I'd like to do if we could is make
can we add that to as an item to discuss uh under not reasonably assumed. >> Yeah. Or else. Yeah. >> Yeah. In other words, what I'd like to do is get through this agenda first and bring that up at the end um you know uh right around the time we do meeting
minutes and so forth as an item not uh uh prepared for the agenda but had been previously discussed and we wanted to bring it back on the table. >> Right. Okay. >> Sounds good to me. I will practice brevity for that too because I'm sure we'll all be ready to get out.
>> So I just wrote vacation to talk my cheat sheet. Okay. Are you going to remember what that means or are you just going to think we all are going to Cabo? >> Will remember means I'm going on vacation? >> I want to go on vacation. I have no
money to go on vacation. >> All right. Well, uh, thank you. No, it's a, you know, I can't not that we ever have a lot of people that watch our meetings, but it is mindful that we at least bring up the discussion. And honestly, Tina, I think it's, you know,
you have to have your finger on the pulse, >> right? And I get >> I mean and like I I >> because every decision made affects everybody. >> Well, and this is the thing. It's like I mean I know you all know this, but you know again regardless of what industry
I've been in, you know, benefits, salary, and building infrastructure are typically the biggest pieces all the time of a budget, right? And so how you can whether you're turning a profit or just trying to keep the money in the bank, it's like how do you how do you work within those, right? And there's
certain there's certain pieces that like we're trying everything we can but some forces are beyond us. You know what I mean? >> So >> no I understand. >> Truly truly understand. >> All right we're going to move on. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um first item re review wording
and placement of paragraph for defining which positions need to be sworn in. Uh there was an email and I remember reading it >> and uh >> and it was a good email. >> Very good email. >> Want to read it again? >> No. No, it's actually you know what
Lorraine why don't you is there anything or is is that fine do you want to have a discussion do you want to make a motion >> the only question I had was um are the I have a check mark next to sealer in weights and measures and I don't think that has anything to do with anything
other than the email >> that I'm probably just crossing over and seeing uh but there was the pieces the people that were listening were fine the positions rather yeah were fine Uh the only question was uh where in the byar
are we going to put it? >> What about livestock inspector? Isn't that our animal inspector? >> So I asked that question. I don't have an answer yet. Um >> because I remember they do the animal inspector does do something with chickens. >> Correct.
>> But I don't know. I think a livestock inspector that's all they're doing. Like they're just doing livestock, not the whatever else the animal inspector does. But um I I'll get the I'll get an answer and get back to you.
And the other thing too is, you know, if we don't get an answer, we could push it through as is and then correct it. You know, once we know >> Well, and if it's vague, that's not a bad thing either. >> No. And you know,
>> it's an it's not a filled position. >> Uh in animal it is. It's a statement position. >> No, but it's >> it's not an occupied company. >> It is. >> Oh, we do have an animal inspector. >> Yeah, you have to. >> Yeah, >> you have to have >> no livestock.
>> Yeah. Okay. >> Again, we're getting into the word. >> I meant livestock. >> So, we do not have a livestock inspector. >> Correct. >> And yes, it is a position in the bylaw. The worst is it just sits in the bylaw. Okay. It's it's certainly not something
that uh we have to address. As far as a change goes, it would be nice to have the information. >> Yeah. >> And if we can get it before >> I know our I know our animal inspector gets appointed every year. >> I think from that appointment, they might get sworn in, but I don't know if
they're the same position. >> So, >> oh, okay. Domesticated animals such as cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, horses, and poultry. Risk for food, fiber, labor, and profit. That's a livestock. I wasn't quite sure about something. Yeah, >> that's interesting.
>> Okay. >> Okay. Um, >> but where does it belong? That's the question. >> Where does it go? >> Where does it belong? >> Okay. You Jennifer suggested on February 16th that it belongs in section five. >> I think you decided I was just trying to
find a place. >> Okay. But I'm just saying based on your email. I'm reading your email. So, um, and what I'll again I hate to drone on this stuff, but we just have to get through it. Okay. >> Okay. So, what she wrote what what she sent us was below is a proposed wording
for a new paragraph section five of the wage personnel positions that need to be sworn in. Certain positions in the town must be sworn in according to MGL chapters 40 and 41. These include assistant treasurer, building commissioner/zoning enforcement officer,
finance director, town accountant, principal assessor, sealer of weights and measures, superintendent of streets, town accountant, and town treasurer collector, plus any other position deemed by town administration as being part of this bylaw. Not sure where you
would want it, but possibly after employment above minimum entrance rate. >> Um, >> in section five. I also reviewed the list of positions from legal counsel again and this was the discussion of livestock inspector and animal inspector and we could just
put that off to the side for a moment and deal with its other language and see if we are okay with it. >> Does that summarize it pretty much? I think it does, you know, um, even by legal, and this is probably part of what
I provided you, you know, >> any position could be sworn in, but there's certain ones that have to be sworn in, right? And so I think having the the caveat there about, you know, or deed, >> um, >> yeah, >> I would think if it's going to be in five,
>> um, I would I think it can go anywhere. I'm not anywhere, but I think it can go anywhere F above. Um, it might make sense to put it like
after D background checks because it's just an additional thing. Um, you know, if you're looking at I'm not sure what the lineup how this ABC how like it doesn't look chronological. So like, oh, like there's an opening, so
now the next step is this and the next step is that. Um, so I think I could go there. I think you could go, like you said, you know, either above or below the um employment >> kind of makes sense to go employment above the minimum entrance and then go
into what are the the sworn in piece and then probation areas if you're in the position. So there's kind of a a continuity there. Yep. But you're saying put it above employment of minimum insurance. >> No, I'm putting it as D. >> It
A B CDE E F. So we'd have the new F, >> right? >> And then all the rest would change. >> So right before probationary period, >> correct? Yep. >> Because you have to be probationary in order to have a position. And in order to have a position in some cases, >> you need to get small. So it kind of makes sense in my head.
>> Yep. So, you'd want to make that um >> So, I I would um I don't have a problem with the wordage that I read. Um that in terms from that email and I
would propose a uh that we take a motion to insert the email of February the 16th summary as presented um between 5e and 5F as a new category titled employees
that need to be sworn in >> positions that need to be positions that need to be sworn Eric said so moved. >> So moved. All right. Um any >> real quick? >> Go ahead. >> Can I am I am waiting to get in on my laptop because I'm on my phone right
now. Can son let me in to the room. >> Oh, lot of things are juggling. Derek, sorry. >> I'm sorry. If someone wants to take my spot on this committee, I would not be opposed to it. But until then, >> you ain't going nowhere.
Sorry, we like you there. >> Hi, kiddo. You ain't going nowhere. >> Oh my gosh. Which baby? >> Baby name. >> This is Eastston. >> East. >> Eastston. Yes.
>> Handsome. >> Look at that. Look at that. >> Oh my god. >> He could be part of the committee, too. >> I know. Exactly. Exactly. You want to be a voting member, buddy? Yeah. This is our youngest. He was born uh back in November. So yeah,
>> Scorpio. >> He's not the one He's not the one with pink eye, but he's the one I got a hold right now. >> He looks pretty good. What is What's his date? November date. >> Uh November 14th. November 14th.
>> I think you I think you said that because that's my son, my youngest son. >> Yeah, I think. Yeah, because we decided they were birthday buddies, right? Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah, we decided the second children are super fun. >> I have I have an older brother, a another brother, and they it it is that
birth order thing. But oh, look at that handsome face. >> Oh my god. >> So, he isn't Scorpio. Just like that. >> So, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm I here I am like, let's make this meeting move quick and then I'm like, oh, here's a baby. >> It's okay. All right. This meeting will move at the pace this meeting moves.
Okay. >> We've had dogs. All I want to do is just quickly make sure Jennifer, are you >> good with that motion? >> So, this will be 5, >> correct? Replace, right? You just move the other ones down, >> right? >> Okay. >> And with >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Great. All right. So, there's a motion on the floor. It's been seconded. Um, there's been a discussion. I will call the role. Lorraine. >> Yes. >> Derek, >> yes. >> And Jim, yes. >> How about Eastston? Does Eston have a book? >> Really?
>> Yeah. Eastston's just gonna vomit on you slightly and take that for what it's >> rule is good. Vomiting. >> I've been there. >> So, drooling is fine. Vomiting is not. It >> It's It's more just a It's more just a fun spit up with like a smile. A smile
might immediately afterwards and you're just like, I want to be mad, but that's a cute smile. >> Oh, what a beautiful face though. >> Jim, you live close to me. I can just drop him off if you want to. If you want some feel free. Okay. We will have plenty we have plenty of keep them busy.
Um the uh keeping with section five. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um the next item is uh regarding in-depth background investigations for department head candidates added correct to the bylaw. Um may I ask where we're
planning to do that >> under probationary period or the hiring? Section 5D. >> Section five. >> Oh, yeah. That's already in there. I just changed the title. >> Yeah. >> I'm sorry. I was making >> in terms of what? Notice of vacancies.
>> Um, no, I'm looking at So, it goes back investigations goes before notice of vacancy. >> Thank you. Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. Um, >> so that's what we got. >> Have we voted on that?
>> I don't think because it's here. That's why I'm asking. >> Yeah. Do we need to vote if it's just moving it around or Yes. >> Um >> kind of actually we're adding some things. >> Okay. Sorry. I thought it was I thought it was just moving it around slightly.
>> That's why I was trying to ask if we already >> we didn't vote. >> We needed the new draft which is the one with Jennifer is saying that the new word. >> Okay. Um just to save everybody Derek, you and I from looking, I'll just read it quickly. Okay. Uh it's it becomes
section 5D background investigations. All persons selected for a full-time or benefit eligible part-time employment or to any other position as the town may require shall undergo a reference check verification of prior employment and a Corey check in accordance with town
policy prior to the starting date of employment. In addition, persons selected for the department head position shall also undergo a comprehensive background investigation conducted by Kingston Police Department, which shall include verification of military service, education, a scan of
available databases that are not considered Corey, former educators, and former supervisors >> should be >> and that wording came from town council. >> Okay, >> this has been emailed. So, this is a final. >> Okay. uh say now I forever hold your
peace and uh based on what I just read and um I'll take a motion to accept the background investigations under section 5D as written. >> So moved. >> Okay. Discussion.
>> Eric, nothing on your side? >> None. >> Okay. Okay. Um, seeing that I have a motion and I have a second and there is no discussion, I would um take a a vote on the motion. Lorraine, >> yes. >> Derek,
>> yes. >> Jim, yes. Okay. >> So, you're good to Thank you very much. >> I appreciate that. >> All right. So, I'll do a new draft of section one >> with these changes, but the votes have been taken. So, it's just a review of
chang >> not a problem. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um, the next item is add documented sick donation process. >> I haven't done that. Okay. >> You haven't done that? No. >> All right. So, that's on a hold. >> Yep. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Okay. >> Um, the uh next item is D, change in definitions of exempt and non-exempt employee in section two. >> Yep. So, I just emailed something. That's what that point out is. Yeah. I just need to look at it. Derek, did you get uh an email from Tina? Okay. Did you
have a second to look at it? >> I am pulling it up right now. >> Yeah, let's uh Yeah, let's take a look. I'm going to do the same thing because I got it. >> Yeah, I just >> No, it's fine. You know what, Tina? There's no issue. It's just we're we're all we're all doing what we got to do.
>> It's clear >> and all I'm trying to do is just get us through it and you know, so there's no issue. Okay. So, uh, take a second everybody and take a look at it position.
>> I like the explicit statement that yes, you get overtime. No, you get and so that might be good. >> Okay. >> Time for a number. >> Yeah. And it has to make sure that they understand it's over 40.
>> Yeah. Some things I remember. Yeah. Okay. Then we have overtime and you have a small ad adjustment to the overtime section as well. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, those three look good to me.
>> Look good to me. Nothing for me. >> All right. Um, does um uh overtime count towards any uh increment of uh test of hours, vacation, so forth? >> Right now it does. >> I'm disaster. >> Yeah. No, I know it's it's a thorn in my
side, but every employer I've been with has done it. So, technically, you're not supposed to get overtime unless you physically work over 40 hours, but what most employers do is accumulative. If you have over 40 hours and work an hour, get overtime.
>> Okay. But does the overtown count towards the 1250 hours or whatever that number is yearly >> for which thing? >> Um >> after >> is it? Well, no. Is there um are there are there any situations
where uh the count of hours is stipulated >> in order to qualify >> in a position and that count of hours includes overtime. >> I don't know if I'm understanding your question. >> So what I'm saying is that if you've got somebody that is going to get a benefit
based on sick leave no go ahead. >> You know what I'm saying? or another benefit and it's based on the number of hours that they work >> like okay >> to be qualif because what I'm thinking you're referring to is like our
sick time >> is acred monthly based on the month that you work right so you work for the month of April in your first paycheck or around the first paycheck of May you get your day and a half or day and a quarter whatever it
Um, but it's how you got paid for that month. Whether it's sick time, personal time, vacation time, or you physically worked, those are the pieces that count. If it's overtime, it that you don't get more because you've worked overtime. Is that what you mean? >> Yes. >> Okay. Yeah.
>> Okay. And does our sentence in here uh in accordance with the US Fair Labor Standards Act cover that situation? And the reason I'm asking this question is because um there's been a tremendous amount of overtime recently because of snow removal.
>> Okay. And >> I don't want somebody to think they're expecting something and it's not. >> Yeah. I mean >> I just want to make sure that we're it's I'm trying to offset a problem. >> Yeah. No, I understand that. I mean over time for the purposes of the bylaw some
of the contracts have different language in it. For the purposes of the bylaw and the positions that are in this um it is anything over 40 time and a half >> that I I don't have an argument on the rate. I just have an argument on the accumulation towards other benefits. >> It wouldn't it shouldn't count towards
that. I'm trying to think what else it would have or could have or could. >> It's mainly the second vacation is the >> Yeah. No. So vacation vacation is just how much time have you been here, right? And then it's prrated based on your um hired schedule, right? So if I'm hired
for like when I was hired for 27 hours a week, my vacation was 27 hours a week. >> Even if I worked 40, even if I were again, I'm an exempt so it doesn't matter, but but if I wasn't, right? >> Yeah. >> Yes. And again, not in wage and personnel, but we have hourly employees
who are hired for 20 hours a week um 24 hours a week. And so their sick vacation and personal time is based on that prrated. So if particular week I work more, it doesn't matter. Yeah. >> No. And so and again, same thing on a
full-time employee that would get overtime, right? that person is not those overtime hours will not be counted towards any benefit >> accumulation like that >> accumulation benefit that >> it's a oneoff >> essentially it's a one-off there's no no expectations
>> I just and all I'm all I'm saying is does and my question is is does our overtime statement in the bylaw in in in people's opinions cover that because as I said one of the problems that I see is the there was tremendous
mendous amount of overtime worked recently >> and I just don't want people expecting something that they're not going to get. >> Well, well, again, so if this is just specific to what the positions of the bylaw because the union contracts have a whole bunch of other just as far as it
relates to to to our our employees in the bylaw. So, okay. Um >> Okay. So, has has everybody reviewed the document that um Tina gave us regarding
employee and exempt and non-exempt? And are there any changes, suggestions, comments? >> No, no question. >> No, Derek, you're good. >> No concerns. >> Okay. Uh then I would take a motion that we um uh change the definitions of
exempt and non-exempt employee in section two as written on the email document that we got this evening. >> Don't pick up that one too. >> Over time >> where it says over time. You're going to have three changes. >> Three changes including overtime. So, I'm looking for a motion to accept the
three changes as written on the um uh supplement document that we received regarding exempt employee, non-exempt employee, and overtime as written. >> So, moved. >> Second. >> Thank you, Derek. Um any more discussion?
>> No. Excellent. >> Okay, then I would uh take a roll call of the ring. >> Yes. >> Uh Derek, >> yes. >> And Jim, yes. So, >> you have those changes. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Next. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Uh, we got a couple here, guys. Um, let's go. I got to go back to email on this one. So the next one is review draft of schedule A schedule D and a new hourly rate schedule E for non-exempt wage and personnel employees andor
change section 7 compensation hours of work that's multiple. So uh I've got uh a schedule here that I only deleted for schedule D for the title. Uh deleted KTU position.
>> Yeah, we deleted those. Yeah. So there's several deletions um in this one. So maybe we take um let's just talk about review draft of schedule A first. Okay. Um we have deleted the and these have been voted on.
>> These have been voted. So I just I redid I redid the schedules based on your vote. >> Y >> So I think you were just concerned if the new definitions would correspond to the schedule. And >> remember what was
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there's >> I just want to glance at it. >> No, that's fine. >> Um this is an email that um Jennifer
sent on 217 26 titled revise schedule A and E in section 16. and she has an attachment there that basically breaks down the schedules >> and I remember looking at this before the last meeting and I didn't have any issues with it.
>> Yeah. No, there were only two that indicated to me that needed a vote. >> Uh one, >> well, we vote we voted on taking out the positions. That wasn't a problem. Um, I think this is just a final draft and if we're going to vote it just voted to
accept it or not or make a change or someone has >> I do have a note that says the the the program coordinator and the public works director needed to be uh deleted. >> You did do you did do that? >> We did do that. Okay. Do you know? All right. >> I'm looking at it now. >> All right. So, I'm going to just say that.
>> But remember, if you're going to change the weight and measures that >> that would be in schedule C2, >> right? >> Okay. So those two were done. So everything else was fine. >> So well sealer and waste and measures >> said
>> what what I would do is the proposal to reduce that to $8,000 from 9783. Um I would include that in this motion to accept as written with a minor adjustment. >> Okay. I think that's fine. It's just a different schedule. I was going to say
it is >> but it's still section. >> Yeah, it's it's see the this is all part of section. So I I I know we're trying to stay with se schedule A, schedule D, but it's all part of 16. >> Sure. >> So um it may be smarter quite frankly to take the whole thing at once.
>> Um just because all these changes have been done. >> Okay. >> Well, I do well I do have a separate item on >> you. What those wording stip? Oh, the stipen. Well, actually, we haven't
really indicated we haven't in uh um in >> we've listed them at >> Well, I mean, >> you've already voted the changes. You're just reviewing the changes that I made >> and and possibly making a change on sealer weights and measures. Let's Does
anybody >> Eric, do you have any issue with sealers and weights and measures being reduced from uh 9783 to $8,000? >> Um I don't think so. I'm sorry. I'm just looking at the proposed budget that we were given for finance to see what it's reflected in there, but I don't have any
concerns with that. >> Okay. Do does it It's not going to be a big difference on the budget side because of the amount. So, yeah. >> Right. I But I'm just seeing if we um this hasn't come already. >> It hasn't been voted yet. So, but I just
want to make it if it if we have something different in our budget, I just want to make a we're voting on it tomorrow. I just want to make a note that if it comes up in front of us that we that that that information is there and not cause it to be a revote. So >> okay um the knowing knowing from my
experience at those meetings uh the question will come up why >> so somebody please summarize why. >> Yes. So the uh position is going to become vacant and in researching what
other towns do as well as information from the incumbent it would made more sense to reduce it to 8,000 versus the almost 10,000 given the scope of work. >> So basically the the it's based on the input of the current um yeah
>> position holder. >> Yeah. And the um um other stuff. What's no what's the word I'm looking for? Communities. Um comparable communities. >> Comparable. Yeah. Yeah. Comparable. That's the word. >> No. United have any problem.
>> Yeah. >> No. >> Okay. That's >> No. >> Thank you. >> All right. So, >> so yeah, it is it is in the it is in the FY budget as 9,000 or $9,783. So, I'll make a note that we're going to
be changing that then. >> Drop it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Right. It couldn't be changed until these guys agreed to it. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's No. And they we will we as a finance committee will love to see that. So fine by me. >> Okay. Because the wise you will get the why.
Okay. So I figure we'll help there. Um all right. So, as it relates to section um uh uh letter E on our agenda this evening, um I I don't have any problem with A, D,
and E, um as written with the change for sealers and weights and measures, which is C2, uh to $8,000 from his current sip. Um change in section seven compensation hours work.
Somebody help me with that one. >> Is that the one where it's so many hours position? >> I'm going to section seven. >> You were going to look at everything based on the definition the new definitions for team because you were
concerned about how schedule E the calculated. >> Um >> well that's that's the ongoing >> nothing has to be done with that section now. I don't know something you can look at later. >> What is that section if you remember? >> It's compensation. >> How would the work?
>> But is that that section that says administrative does this grouping? >> Yeah, >> remember because I wasn't sure. I think you would need to check it with town council before you deleted it. >> Right. Administrative 35 hours, clerical 35, custodial 40, library 35,
recreational. >> It doesn't really make sense. >> Right. >> Right. And and I think I had brought this up before. So in schedule A the group if those don't exist in section seven the group doesn't exist
right >> well no the group is the groups in schedule A exist >> exists where >> in I hours of work that group >> right but if there's no that and again I don't have it in front
of me so I'm sorry but so that's the piece that it says like administrative 35 hours. Correct. Right. >> Clarif 35 hours. >> Right. >> We know that some supervisor are 40 hours. >> Right. So if the hours aren't correlating with the group anymore, we
take out the hours. >> I think >> what's the purpose of the group? >> Okay. Exam completion. >> I I think >> I don't know. That's that's beyond >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Can I make ahead? No. Here's what I'd
like here's what I'd like to do, guys. Okay? Let's vote um the revised um final of schedules A through E. Okay. And then let's just put off section seven for the next meeting.
Okay. >> Okay. >> Um and I'd like to if you decide to do something with that section, it would affect scheduling. >> Great. So I guess the question is what is what is it what's the re what are we
recommending what are you guys recommending doing to it because the talk came up because those aren't necessarily valid anymore >> but also some of those positions are exempt positions so it doesn't matter
what the hours are >> there is an an asterisk in that u that relates to that yeah that talks about hey you know you're you know, >> uh I remember when I was looking up uh
information, I I didn't bring it with me. It's at home. Um because there were other groups that weren't on us, but they weren't on our bylaw. They may not apply to us, but I think council would be a better person to say, "Hey,
>> so but like custodial that I don't even see a position that's custodial grouping anymore." >> It may be uh probably in the union janitor and the custodial facilities. >> Well, they're those are definitely in the union, but >> so then we would not we would not have
an employee under custodial, right? I >> think we don't have any. So that could be something that we could delete. But the thing is and then going through the the council going through councel and saying okay even if in this case we don't have an employee it's understood
that we need to we need to be clear >> right >> if we're going to use the group thing I mean what is the purpose to the group thing do we need to have the group >> thing like is there a definition as to what the group is like what's the definition
of group >> that's there was some documentation that I had picked up when I was uh at least researching it and there were more >> definitions for group >> not in bylaw >> not in bylaw but in the the the the government yeah there is an explanation
>> but it's also includes other things that we wouldn't even know I think there's a white collar thing and right >> you know there are categories that does that mean that you know um a department head is now a white collar person I mean I I don't
That's town council. >> I think if you want to delete that section, you need someone needs to check with town council. >> That would also affect A. >> Yeah. But but again, it's um it's going to affect schedule A
um only if the section stays in the bylaw. If it's actually come out of the bylaw because >> then I need to revise A get rid of all the groups. Gotcha. >> All right. So, I'm just I'm just worried about the time.
>> If someone >> if someone wants to give me the wording, I'm happy to go to town council. I'm just trying to understand like what is what was it meant to do? And because I I think that's the question. If it's what was it meant to do originally
and if that no longer applies, is there anything beyond bylaw that they would know to say this is why you should still have it in there? or if those don't apply anymore >> or they could get you in trouble for having them in there now. >> The apparent reason they're in there is because you have two groups that have
more hours than the rest of the groups. >> Okay. And they were trying to distinguish those. That was the reason. >> So custodial has 40 hours, recreation has 40 hours, and everything else is 35. >> Yeah, but that's what I mean. Like I think of even recreational the
>> No, I No, I understand. So what I'm saying though is that You you could change them all to 35 and still leave schedule A the way it is. >> Well, we couldn't, right? Because if I if we change them all to 35,
>> you could change them all to 40. >> Yeah, but I think that I think that mucks up the waters as to whole exempt non-exempt thing. >> Oh, I >> you know what I mean, >> right? I well the the caveat at the bottom she'll normally work a full-time
schedule of 35 hours for exempt employees >> right but we have >> exempt >> exempt are 40 like >> the nature of the business makes no I know I don't the purpose of it is to begin with >> the per I believe the purpose of it was
because you did have some groups working less than 40 hours >> and you had some groups that were required to be here for 40 hours and it was to try to to delineate those and then follow it up with delineation of schedule A. Now, um you could take out
that whole thing and say the normal work week for full-time employees. Um under this bylaw, he'll be uh 35 hours except we're noted or 35 hours um and uh uh with some exceptions and don't list them
and then get rid of the groups in schedule A. you could tr you could uh change it to uh you know working hours you know based on your job description so that the job description is the only thing that they >> I think that was the attempt here. >> Yeah. Oh okay.
>> That's what I think they were trying to do. >> Yeah. >> Because they were trying to group the job descriptions based on classes and these classes would typically be working these hours. >> Understood. Um so um >> this this was in when all when all the
town employers were wagering personnel >> then again I that's right I understand. >> Okay. >> So it's got some datedness to it too. >> Right. >> So the real question then is >> but actually it was left in when the bylaw was revised. >> I understand that. But the question is
is this is this true? Is this what happens? Does the recreation people have to work 40 hours? Tina, >> no. Because I have a department. I have a department. >> Does the custodial people do they have to work 40 hours?
>> No, they're in the union. >> Okay. >> So, the point the point I'm trying to make is that >> but then we have some public safety >> public safety is missing from here. >> Okay. Right. Because they're listed as a group, but they're not listed there for the total number.
>> I think you should review each position and the group it's in. But I don't know the definition of the group. Do you know what I'm saying? Like if I look at if I look at animal control officer that says it's administrative. What does that mean? >> Means it's not any of the other groups.
>> No, it means administrative is >> but he's not clerical. He's not custodian. He's not a library. >> But then it means this and the animal control officer is an administrative position which works 35 hours unless it's exempt. >> But it's it's not 35.
would I would like I would like to keep schedules the way they are and keep this bylaw the way it's listed and um address it for the fall town meeting. >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. And the reason is is there's got to be some more discussion. Yeah.
There's got to be some piece brought in on the budget side >> as well and um what's the effect? And um it could be a situation where it's an antiquated part of the bylaw >> and that things have changed. Don't
forget the other thing that's changed is hours of the townhouse. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. But we're still working the hours. >> We're still working the hours, but the the the hours have changed. It's the same the point I'm trying to make is that some of these do not cross into
some of these positions. And I take Jennifer's suggestion to heart that we should go through every one of the positions and we should put it in a group and then make sure the group that's in the bylaw matches the position. Okay. But you can't we're not going to get that done before town
meeting. >> No, because my question would be how do you define a position in a group? And maybe Kate would say, "You don't even drink."
>> Hello. >> Sorry. This is the other one. He's been He wanted attention, too. >> This is Pinky. What's his first name? Hun. >> Hudson. >> Hudson. Hudson. >> Hudson. Hudson. Hudson. >> Oh, Hudson. I'll have to remember that.
>> I have an apple Hudson. That's why >> if um so Hudson is named after the Hudson River and then Eastston is named after the East River. We came up with their names while driving through New York City. So that's that's what it is. >> All right. While you were heating up the
bottle, we have decided, okay, that that we are going to take the schedules as printed with the adjustment for um the sealer and weight to measures position, but we're going to leave the um hours of
work section seven alone currently in a bylaw and then after town meeting deal with this schedule and put things in the proper group so that matches the bylaw. Yeah, that's that's what I've gathered from the conversation. So, all right. Sounds good. I'm I'm happy with that. >> All right. All right. So, I'm going to
uh suggest a motion to accept um the draft schedules. Uh hold on, let me give you the exact here. I have them right here. uh from the email of 21726 revised schedules A and E in section 16
with one additional change and that is to reduce the position of wheel of weights and >> oh do you >> I just want to see what schedule it's in >> oh C2 >> sealer sealer of weights and >> sealer of weights and measures in C2
from 9783 to $8,000 um that would be my only change in these schedules So, I'm looking for a motion to that. >> I'd like to make an amendment, >> please. >> You said A and E. >> A through E. >> You said A and E.
>> Yeah. A through E. So, it has to be connected through. >> Okay. I have A and E, too. >> Okay. >> I'm just reading what the email says, but it's >> No, that's okay. >> Okay. >> That's okay. That's why there's all these things >> in the room. >> Okay. Uh, so moved.
>> Second. >> Thank you. Okay. So, any more discussion? None. >> All right. And we're clear on what we're going to do about section seven as it relates to hours, works, and groups. We're going to deal with that >> later. >> Okay. For the fall town meeting. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, it will sit in there, but it
doesn't apply to anything that I think dramatically changes anything at this stage of the >> It's a work in progress, >> right? Um, not hearing any more discussion. I will call the roles. Lorraine, >> yes. >> Derek, >> yes. >> Jim, yes. Okay. I hope he hasn't been
recorded. >> Yeah, you it's not as bad as you think. >> I don't think it is anyways. >> Yeah, I've watched some strange meetings. >> Okay, next item. Uh, and I appreciate everybody's patience in getting through
this. Um, the next item is the review draft of section 12, other leave and family medical leave. And uh I'm going to pull up here section. >> So you already voted that change. I just
didn't >> Yep. And I'm going to find the draft. >> Yep. There it is. We approved it on February 2. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Look at mine if you want. >> Where is it? >> Mine's still got that up.
>> E. Mhm. >> Yeah, that was what went on. Good. >> Uh, so this has already been voted on. Is there um any more discussion after looking at the um the draft?
>> None. >> I mean, so no, I'm happy with it. >> Yeah. Then I I would propose to change. >> Yeah. I would propose a motion to accept the um section 12E family and medical leave as written.
>> You already >> No, I know, but we're just accepting the final. >> Oh, okay. I'm so sorry. >> That's all. I apologize. >> That's all I'm doing is just making sure everybody's on the same page because we asked for a draft. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Or maybe I just gave you one, but it's it's good to >> One thing I am is consistent.
>> There was a a you there was a request for a new draft. Yeah. I'm looking for a motion. >> Accept. Okay. Thank you, >> Derek. >> Second. >> Okay. Any more discussion? >> Okay. Then I'll call the role. Lorraine. >> Yes.
>> Derek. >> Yes, that was a yes. Okay. And Jim, yes. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Hi, sweetheart. Oh my god, you're more >> Hi. Wow. >> Oh, what a grin.
>> Hi, buddy. >> What a grin that was. >> You are so >> I love it. >> Nikki, you're doing good for Nikki. You'll have to come visit us someday. >> Right. No, pink eye. >> Yeah. No. Right. Right. That'll that
take down the entire wage and personnel committee in one final swoop. >> Yeah. Sorry. We were a little confused. We got excited. All right. So, that uh >> No, we got this next one. I'm just trying to find the email >> do online. >> Um >> All right.
>> I just looking for it. Just take me a sec. I'm sorry. I just uh >> performance review. Yeah, that was the next one. I don't >> see the You call a lot of the same things, so I have to reook. >> I know they are the same thing.
And you had suggested learnings on that. >> I have. Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Because I want to >> timeline because I know how things can get, >> you know. Yeah. We'll just do it in November. We'll do it in December.
>> February 12th is when you said last time. >> That's right. Okay. So, the next >> Right. No, it was a month ago. The next item review proposed wording for performance review process and location in the bylaw. There is an email from
Jennifer dated 212 and it's uh suggested bylaw wording for performance reviews. So I'll just summarize it quickly. Here is a wording discussed at the last meeting for performance reviews. The town administrator is to conduct annual reviews of the department heads after town meeting based on guidelines
currently in the town and the town's administrator's discretion. Um the idea was to give them plenty of room but also require that we have these performance reviews. The question would be where do you want to put it in bylaw?
>> I do have a question about the the the uh >> oh bordering uh the content. I wanted to make a change to indicate that there's a time that they should start beginning it and and not just saying okay yeah we're
going to have two it after town meeting or when after town meeting when do they begin you know can you begin and you know walk it so I >> within 30 days after town meeting days after town meeting >> I did I made some change I made a change um I did not email it I don't know I
don't wasn't thinking the what I wanted to say is the an administrator is to begin conducting annual reviews of department heads within and I left it blank days after a town meeting based on guidelines currently in the town and the
town administrator's discretion. Basically, what I'm looking for them to give them a time. You know, you have you don't want to do a 30 days because they also have to do all of the the the stuff from town meeting. >> Sometimes things have to go to AG and there's a lot of stuff that has to be
done in the background. So, to start a a an uh a review on the heels of town meeting, I think that would be a little bit too much. Uh so maybe like 60 days. they begin it in 60 days. That means okay you
have 60 days to begin the process. Um which is better than not having a time when they have to the process. >> There should be some kind of a time >> and the uh does the performance review process have
any other impact on any other part of the bylaw? Meaning does it have to be done before um anniversary dates? Does it have to be because there's increases involved when >> increases happen July one? >> Okay. So, so again, how about before
July one? >> Well, the performance review >> no impact. >> There's no impacting. >> Okay. Should I guess what my point is is that the performance review I think is a good idea, but what are you trying to accomplish? >> I mean, because there's no monetary
piece to it, at least right now there's not. Um, I do think it's the okay, this is what you this is these should be your goals for the upcoming year. You know, this is what you need to improve on. This is what you do. Great. I think it it's really more of a a guide for the
employee and the manager to this town administrator to um understand where the department is going and where it needs to be, right? And so how you should be handling it, right? So if if the town
administrator's goal is I don't know um complete all the negotiation contracts right then there's certain departments that have to help that position do that right and so then that trickles down to HR accounting whoever else it might be that those
goals are developed from that right because that's the town's goal that's the employer's goal um but whether it gets accomplished or not doesn't spit out how much money you're going to make, but it will spit out, you know, do we keep you? Do we need to put you on a
performance plan? Is there a reason why you couldn't do it? Oh, you need more help because you're, you know, one person doing a million things. >> You know what I mean? So, >> I think I think it's more of a um >> and the benefits. Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, and I I can I can
>> I can make a case for it either way, right? So if there's no money piece to it, right, sometimes the question to an employee or to an or to a manager is like, why bother doing it? Well, because you because we're on a nonmmerit
compensation plan, then you still have to be able to perform and that's the piece that this is addressing, the performance piece and the goals and everything else. >> Do they normally give uh department heads goals? So again, normally we've had one TA that
has done this 10 years that I've been here. >> Um and so um yeah, there are goals and I'm and I'm trying to call mine up to see if there's like a timeline, but I can't get my um work. >> Oh, I would think a time a goal would any any documentation that says, "Okay,
we're going to do this." >> Yeah, the goal has to be here, right? The timeline fal thing. I don't know if it's tied to the fiscal if it's just tied to before your next performance appraisal and everyone was on the same schedule. >> Yeah. >> Y
I I don't have a problem with it. It's again where to put it. So my suggestion on where to put it would be one of two places. >> One would be in uh section 8 amendment to the bylaw. >> Eight. Is that what you said? >> Yeah. Section 8. Yeah. >> And I would make it a separate letter.
Right now it's currently A through E. >> Yeah. The problem is that amendment of the bylaw just talks a lot about structure of the board uh uh working for towards town meeting and so forth. Doesn't quite fit. The other place that it could possibly go the other place
that it could possibly go is under um section seven compensation right between step rates and promotion. >> It doesn't tie the compensation. >> That's the problem. You could always put it in the last section. >> Um,
>> miscellaneous. I hate that. >> Miscellaneous. >> I think or or one other Here's my here's my final suggestion. >> Okay. Section six, classification. Make it a separate letter after periodic
reviews. >> Section after recclass. Ah. That would make more sense. >> So, make it right between >> periodic reviews and see.
>> Well, but this is about positions, not performance. >> Performance. >> Can't it just be its own section? >> I was going to say give them give them their own section, >> you know, or can I just for a second where mine went to be honest with you, but I'm like
I have this all printed out, but I think it's because they used the website and >> I write on mine. So, it's >> No, that's paper. >> I think it's going second that really deals with employees, how they're recruited. >> Oh, probationary and all that stuff.
Yeah. No, again, I you know what? This is the art, not the science part, guys. So, uh >> my point is to get to this otherwise you'll be sitting here figuring it out. >> Makes sense. Yeah. And I think it can go right after probationary period because
you're dealing with I'm just starting my job and now I'm in the pros of my job and >> and you're the one that has to use this. So you tell us in terms of flow. >> Yeah, I think that makes sense. And there's also >> after probationary between probation and
disciplinary but there's all newly blah blah blah prior to my stomach's growing. So if you look under probationary period that second paragraph talks about their performance will be evaluated by the department head. >> So I think probationary period
annual reviews annual performance reviews disciplinary policy in section five. >> Yeah I I I don't have a problem with it. Derek you okay with it? >> Derek's like yes. >> Yeah. No problem.
>> Sorry. >> We're getting there buddy. There's screaming children. So I'm trying to keep myself muted. >> So it's going to be its own like subsection >> of five. Right. So probationary >> we've inserted um
>> my god I can't even >> insert the sworn inations. But I'll put it between probationary and disciplinary. >> Yes. So probationary would stay as a G. Then the new uh B the the uh the uh what
do you hell you call it the uh review would be um >> remember we're adding two new section >> right so whatever those letters are you'll figure out once you put them all together >> but I didn't get the wording >> so the wording
>> you have on I suggested >> uh I did not include a number because I didn't >> So did you just put a time period after department. >> No, I did some Take a look at the red. >> Yeah, you changed a few things. So, the question is what's a reasonable amount of time.
>> Well, yeah. Right. And I stayed away from 30 because it's too close to town meeting. You have so much stuff to do. >> Yeah. Within 90 days after town meeting. >> That gets you through precash. That gets you through the start of the fiscal. That gets you through planning for the
town. >> I feel like >> fall town meeting would do it. So if it's May 2nd, May, June, July, August 2nd. So then you are doing all of the grunt work beforehand and then you can go into that >> and then you got and then you you've
you've set the work the the plan for fall meeting. Now you're this will be this could be part of it. >> It could be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So 90 days would work for me too. >> What do you think? Oh, I'm sorry. >> No. Um I think you guys can decide that.
Then I have a follow-up question. Okay, >> Derek, that's a face. >> Oh, sorry. That was Sorry. I I I am fine with that. That is that I am fine with that. >> All right. So So I would take a motion.
Okay. To um take the wording of the uh that submitted as written. Uh the town administrator is to begin conducting annual reviews of department heads within 90 days after the town meeting based on guidelines currently in the
town and the town administrator's discre discretion. I would um also in the same motion place that between se in section five between probationary and disciplinary sections to be renumbered
accordingly. >> Okay. follow up to that. >> Oh, wait a minute. >> No. So, my my only other followup is because now we're in the probationary period section and it talks about performance evaluation. I think some
wording has to be put in that. So, prior to the conclusion of the probationary period, their performance will be evaluated by the department head, voting authority or supervisor on such form as the town administrator may require. But we're looking to do evaluations only for
>> department. >> I understand that. But we already have something in here that says if you're hired under this bylaw, you are six month probation and at six months you're going to get a evaluation and it's based on what the town administrator wants the whoever the supervisor is to use. So maybe we just say something like,
>> you know, as referenced or, you know, to to reference back to that piece of it. or um the town administrators to begin conducting annual reviews with department heads outside of the probationary period >> or exclude I think I think no what I'm
saying is this probate already there should be performance evaluations happening at all >> but because there's no >> there's no >> should they be perform should this be performance reviews or performance evaluation >> so
>> I'm talking about this new section some >> this is just a review of department heads and all I'm saying is if you and I think what I'm hearing you say is that if you have a pro probationary review >> this would be outside of that. So in
other words, you could have you could have a provision review and everything would be fine and the person's hired and moving on and to check the box, the counter administrator could also say, "Well, this is now also your >> agreed." >> Yeah. >> My now this is how I could see this
playing out. Okay, department head, you hired a librarian who's covered under wage and personnel at six months. You need to do their evaluation. And it says here under this >> on such form as the town administrator may require. >> So now we have this other section that
now says the town administrator gets to >> you know what I mean? Like >> I don't the first sentence in that paragraph says all newly hired and transferred employees. So you're specifically identifying a certain group of people
>> are employees. It has nothing to do with the town administrator taking a look at the town. Agreed. But my point is this has always said based on a form the town administrator >> may require and now we're going to have a section right under it that says the town administrator is going to do performance evaluations
>> or department heads. >> Right. So now I'm going to get a department head that says where the town administrator's form because that's what I have to use based on this. >> Gotcha. >> And which is the department head it's a probationary employee. >> Then they would they're supposed to get one at six months.
>> Right. >> Right. Because when I go back when I go to department heads who have wage and personnel employees and I say this is what I do now. Hey, six months is coming up. You should do a performance review. The feedback I've gotten is there a form? I say no because
there isn't. >> Okay. Right. >> Why don't you do why don't you use language that says excluding um when we talk about doing it all excluding all newly hired and transferred employees uh subject to probation. So taking the
the the newly people uh and this the probationary by excluding them in the paragraph that mean you're only >> No no no I think they should like what so when we hire department heads I have said to town the town administrator at the time this person's coming up on their six months you need to do an
evaluation so >> so that all stays I'm just saying now when I when I'm reading through the bylaw as a employee that's covered under this or department head that has employees that are covered under this now there's going to be section that says, "Oh, the form is the town administrator's form. Oh, look, they use
some type of form because they're evaluing other >> What's the form, Tina? There isn't one." >> So, my question is, are we keeping for just the regular six-month probationary employees? Are we going to are we going to allude to the town administrator
form? >> This is the See, this you have when you make changes to the bylaw, you really have to look at >> everything. I know >> the other >> and maybe you know what and maybe that here here's the thing like let's put that on the back burner but I I think I think what I need to then
>> you're right because >> you really have to read the whole thing >> right because now what's going to happen or what should happen perhaps is when I say to a town or when I say to a department head like Donald you know when he hires his librarians hey six
months you need to do a review of your wagon personnel he's going to say okay where's the form from the town administrator. Oh, well, we don't really do that, so you can use what you want. But now it says something like we're going to do that. >> Why don't we change it to instead of doing the town administrator, the human
resources manager will >> create this form with the approval? >> I'm happy to do that. >> Administrator, >> same form. >> It sounds to me like there's still too much moving here to really move forward with it. I don't know if anyone else feels that way. if maybe this is
something that >> I think we I think we can move forward with the department head piece of it. I just I don't want to lose sight of now we're referencing performance evaluations happening >> right but but the one word in here the two words that are in this statement
>> that kind of absolves the whole issue may require >> may require >> I know >> okay we can deal with that later >> so the point the reason I'm saying that form. You mean so what I'm saying is we
can put this in. >> It's mutually exclusive from this. >> Okay, fair enough. >> As long as that word may require stays in >> No, you're absolutely right. >> So that's my point. >> Okay. So I would I would propose that we move ahead as discussed.
>> Um and did we get a motion in a second? >> I'm so sorry about that. Um >> I don't think so. >> No, I don't I'm not sure. I'm not clear. Look, I'm not clear. I think we should do it again. Okay. But do you understand my point? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You understand my point about the Okay.
So, so in other words, I think there's enough wiggle room in this probationary period with that statement to separate this out because again, >> this is our suggestion on a bylaw that we it can be changed. >> Yeah. Yeah. you know, if if you go to
put it in practice and say, "Hey, look, you know, I had to do a performance review on this guy in June, then I had to do another one on the same guy in October." This doesn't work. >> Why do we give the that a heading, give it a number, and say, and and and and be very specific, department head reviews.
Boom. So that that paragraph applies only to department head reviews. the performance evaluation department head department head >> performance performance review performance evaluation >> I think whatever it's all the same in my
opinion >> I mean I would say evaluation evaluation imply >> implies >> yeah I think evaluation >> review is less less is more u soft >> right I think you have more wiggle room
>> yeah versus an examination >> department head reviews as a title to me is better. >> Yeah. >> Um and it's the town administrator is to begin conducting annual reviews of department heads within 90 days after town meeting based on guidelines currently in the town and the town
administrator's discretion. That is what I'm proposing as a um motion and that it should be between F and G in um section five. >> All right. So the title would be
department head reviews. >> Yeah, that would be very explicit to that. >> Okay. >> Uh >> and then I'll copy that after. >> Y I do have a question on that. Should it be I I mean I wrote it. I should understand what I'm talking about.
>> But what if I change it to at the conclusion of annual town meeting? Is it more specific or does it matter? >> I don't think it matters. >> Okay. You you thinking town meeting's going to go on for a couple of days? >> Oh, it does. Yeah, we've been here that
long, right? >> Don't you dare jinx it. >> We We didn't do We didn't do the IT stipend and look what happened last. Don't you dare jinx it. >> Thanks, Derek. And um just as reference again, you don't have to do anything with it, but
just looking back at my evaluations that the one TA that I've had has done um they're done by the end of July. >> It usually So it would be timing is fine. >> So timing in there
>> 90 days after begin conducting. We're not and we're not saying must be done by a certain date. We're just saying they should begin conducting. >> All right. So we're using Lorraine's word. So I I proposed a motion. Okay. And I haven't
>> anybody about accepting the motion. >> Okay. So I propose that we uh as it relates to our agenda item regarding performance review process and its location in the bylaw. Letter G in our our uh agenda that we propose the
following. a section titled Department Head Reviews going between probationary period and disciplinary policy in section five. And the motion reads, "The town administrator is to begin conducting annual reviews of department heads within 90 days after town meeting
based on guidelines currently in the town and the town administrator's discretion. The idea behind this was to give them a lot of latitude to come up with a program." >> Yeah. >> So that is my suggested motion >> and that sounds good. I second. >> No, you so moved.
>> So moved. I'm sorry. >> Okay, Derek. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Okay. Any more discussion? I hope >> God, no. >> Okay. >> For a bloody sentence. Yeah. >> Then I will then I will ask for a vote. Lorraine. >> Yes.
>> Derek, yes. Jim, yes. >> But you keep that. What's the email date on it? I'll write down my uh >> No, I'll make you a copy. I'll make you a copy right after the meeting. Oh, okay, honey. >> All right. All right. >> That way you can check to make sure. >> Okay. Uh
>> you can take a picture of it, right? >> And then give it back to her >> snap. >> I'll do that after. >> Okay. Um the uh next item, stipen change for seal wastes. We already took care of >> that. >> And we do not have a cost of living
adjustment yet. So that is hold. So I would like to congratulate you as a board and Tina and Jennifer that we only have two holes on this and everything else has been >> decided. >> Okay. Um so I appreciate everybody's
patience >> that thick and the cost. Great. >> Correct. Okay. >> Yep. Okay. >> Okay. Any any like the time frame for the cost of delivering because we won't be able to do our handout for town meeting until >> we can't do something they don't give us. >> No. Could be a dare.
>> No, nothing. >> It would have to probably if it's >> could be a handout. Add a hand out. >> Add a hand out or could be a TDB TBD to it another time. >> So, >> all right. >> Obviously, they know several >> budget committee. Everybody needs them.
So, it's just a matter of when >> when. >> All right. Um >> Okay. I'm going to shift that over again. >> Okay. Um, >> so that brings me to >> So do you think I should start working on the handout for town meeting just about that?
>> So remind me remind me is your article two pieces? Is it two separate articles? No, >> it's one one article bylaw money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, >> well, we can talk on >> we have another meeting coming up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, let's we can wait until we
>> Okay. >> All right. >> Um, >> I mean, there's a placeholder in there. >> All right. I I'd like to push off minutes till the next meeting if you guys are okay with that because >> I'm okay. >> All right. And then um the uh let's discuss the date of the next meeting. Um
it's supposed to be April 20th. That's a holiday. Um >> so if people could get their calendars out and let's pick a day. >> I know the 27th I thought was awfully close meeting.
April 13th, Monday. >> That looks good. We'll wait. >> It looks good. >> We need to get the We need to get the handout done for town meeting. >> Town meeting is May, >> right? >> May second, >> right? We we we'll finalize the town the
handout. Do you want So, you want to move it up even closer? >> I mean, >> in other words, do you want to get another meeting in before town meeting? Well, the board of selectmen like to look at the >> I understand. No, it's again we're trying here. No.
>> So, all right. Uh, the two dates are April 6th and April 13th. >> The 6th I can argue. >> Okay. >> The 13th I can. >> Okay. >> And then possibly another meeting the
27th. >> 13. Let me just write it down a lot later. So, April 13th, >> 6,87th is a possible. Okay. Depending on what we finish on the 13th. Okay. You're okay with that? >> Well, it depends on when the town
administrator needs their handout. I mean, usually I have a million control over when it's required. >> Subject. What I will tell I'm I'm offering these dates up and I'm going to qualify it with a subject to change. >> Okay. So
>> any that time of the year? >> Yeah. >> All right. >> So can everyone make April 13th and April 27th? >> Well 13th definitely and to be determined the 27th but tenatively. So uh I need less of a confirmation on the 27th. I need a firm confirmation on the
13th. >> The 20th is a holiday. That's Patriots Day. That's why we have >> I'm good at the 13th. Lorraine, >> I'm good. >> I'm good. Okay, Jennifer,
>> I think I'm good, but I'm I'm just thinking about about the timeline here because >> Can you start your your your uh handouts with what you've got right now? >> Yes, I could. >> So, you end up with two >> a draft of the handout for April 13th.
>> Yep. >> There you go. At least that'll >> with what we have done. If we don't have it done, it can't be on the hand. >> Can't be on the hand. Yeah. >> And and that's not a problem. So I don't have an issue. We had a very big >> bite this year. >> Okay.
>> Thanks for not having any reclassifications or new >> positions. We dug in. We dug in this year. Okay. >> I did. >> But but okay. But it's okay. We dug in. So >> things that have to happen. So So that's that's where we're at.
>> April 27th >> if needed. >> I will if needed. >> Okay. But this way you have some idea. Okay. >> If needed. >> All right. So that takes care of the the regular meetings. So the last thing is Derek vacation.
I wrote it down. >> So anyways, where I would like to go is that no. Um so um so with vacation um I had the the conversation and Tina please correct me if I'm wrong here. Um, but there was a conversation that with with
individuals starting, the way that the town's vacation policy is is that you acrew more time based upon your length of service and that new hires might not be even if they're coming into senior positions might not be eligible for that. Um, am I correct in that? I hope
>> so. Um, so senior people coming in, senior, what's the word I'm looking for? people that have experience. I don't That's right. They're not necessarily in senior positions, but people that have experience >> um >> multiple of experience, right?
>> Well, or any experience, >> any experience, right? And so, um if they're coming into a position and they because they've been working for 20 years and that's why we're hiring them. Um you know, they're leaving behind four, five, six weeks, right? And then
now we're to them, >> you know, in the course of the first year you'll accum you'll get two weeks vacation and then on your first day or in your first anniversary you'll get two weeks vacation, but you're not going to see three weeks vacation until five years. You're not going to see three three weeks until
>> 10 years or whatever it is. Um, so yeah. So it's it's it's the combination of okay, like I'm only going to get two weeks, but I've been working in this profession just making me hire making you hire me. >> So my question is what legally we allow?
>> What do you mean? Well, in other words, I'm I'm a firm believer, okay, that we should give the tools to the administration to succeed, >> okay? And I don't have a problem with offering somebody four weeks vacation because they're coming from 20 years of
experience in a similar job and, you know, have decided because it fits lifestyle, >> sure, first position in life and so forth and and it is a fit. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I don't have any problem with giving them more vacation. >> Yeah. The problem is how do you handle
that with your vacation policy? >> Right. >> Okay. Right. >> So, um this is another situation where you know uh I I tell the story about the time I was on the finance committee and we had somebody save the town $50,000 in
expenses and I was going to their budget meeting to somehow convince them that I'm taking 50,000 out of their budget >> for the next year. And I ended up sitting there and saying to that person, "Look, if this was a private business, I'd write you a check for five grand and say, "Thank you very much."
>> Right? >> Okay. I'm not going to take all 50 away from you. So, tell me what you need to do your job better. And then I'll fight for your budget when I go to the finance committee in order to turn around and and say, you know, this person needs
this to go to the next level. And we don't want to take all the 50,000 he saved. we want to give him 20,000 to accomplish that goal. So we can't that's the only mechanism we have when it comes
to rewarding and and that's a very in in some cases well it ain't going to affect me type of it's hard to convince somebody. >> Same thing on this vacation idea is that I don't have a problem with giving the latitude. Okay, just tell me how to do
it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And is it legal? Right. Are there any legal requirements that we're not aware of? >> Yeah. >> But I think Derek had had an idea. >> Please, >> did you? >> So, my idea would be, and this is how it operated at the firm that I was at, um,
that you would that the vacation time was laid out and our equivalent of a bylaw that was basically contingent upon years of service with the town, but then also dependent upon, and for us, we could do this with grade. So if an
individual was to come in at X grade, so say they came in at grade three or higher, it would be three weeks. At grade four or or at grade eight or higher, it would be, you know, whatever. So obviously that's open to discussion, but the idea being that you when you
have a position, you can say or when someone comes in at that position, you can say this is something that we can offer in addition to what have you. And the so the idea being that we've standardized it to some extent and then
now have the ability to offer a higher position because obviously if someone's coming in and we think they're worthy of a grade seven, they probably have the seniority here or elsewhere that would enable them to to get that vacation time. So that was my idea. Just something to throw. >> Yeah,
>> I think I think it's a good idea. >> Uh I don't think we can get it accomplished between now and town meeting. Why not? >> Because well, because >> I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm 100%. >> But but but for for the sake of anybody that watches this meeting, I'm going to
say because it has to be tied into the wage schedule, >> right, >> based on the grades and there has to be some input from uh the people that are, you know, firing the guns, so to speak. In other words, >> town council. Yeah. >> Yeah. Town council, administration,
uh and so forth. Um, and there has to be enough latitude to allow administration to accomplish their goal, which is hire the best person possible, but not as much latitude that it would be an unfair policy claim by someone else that's
outside the system or on the verge of the system or about to happen. And so you, you know, tell me what happens when somebody goes from grade three to grade four and we reclass the position. we give them more vacation time and they they've only been here a year, >> right?
>> So, the the whatifs have to be all followed through and I think that has to be taken up after town meeting. >> Uh, agreed 100%. >> But I don't want to forget it. I think it's a good idea and I think Tina and and and the administration would
appreciate this tool in order to turn around and make level out the playing field and also give them the ability to keep people within grade and keep those grades lasting a little longer. >> It would be a good uh question for council if that she has any other
communities that she deals with that has a a >> Yeah. Why reinvent the wheel? >> Right. >> Right. I agree. I agree. But again, I think this has to be taken up after uh after after our business is done. I think it's a real good idea, but I think it needs to be done after
>> because it might solve a lot of problems. >> It would definitely give them an >> Yeah. And um Yeah. I've been at employers where when you hit a certain level, your val your vacation time just is at a certain level, right? So,
>> you know, if you become a director of a department, we don't have those, but you know what I mean? Department heads, you just right off the bat, you get five weeks. >> Well, and truth be told is if if this person came in as on a contract, you can negotiate in the contract. >> Absolutely. Yeah.
>> So, so um you know, there's always that. But, but again, contract employee is not a wage and personnel employee. No. So, you want to try to keep it as all the other things as fair as possible. And you also want
to and you know, one of the things that that I think was done this year was the fact that, you know, you brought up um someone from within to a supervisory position, a department head position. And I think that's important. >> And I and I think the more you can do
that, the better. >> Great. >> Okay. And um you know this could be a tool there because if someone does change grade you know um so the questions are going to be we don't have to answer them now but they need to be for further discussion
>> what are the legal ramifications what have other towns have done what is a a a snapshot proposal for discussion that the administration would like to see yeah >> if those three things are presented to us then I think we can have a good
conversation and and hash out what some of the issues would be and then also fit in where it belongs in the grade uh and step argument how you do that >> you know uh how we fit it in >> I think there's also >> I just think it's a really good idea I
just think the implementation >> I I I agree it's it's a good idea but it's definitely in a very in a very rough form and in in the fact that you're right there needs it needs to be looked in reference to where the steps are and and what I mean if someone came
in into step one where are they going to be when they get their x number of years of vacation and make sure that anything is aligned with that. So agree >> John >> and would you end up with the opening up a can of worms with the contracts the unions? No, because I think you can make the case of this these are for exempt
positions that are department heads, >> right? >> They don't get overtime and you know they're hours of the day or whatever. You know what I mean? Um yeah, I think you know I think if specifically for wage and personnel but probably overarching but I think it's a little bit
so for I think the town has to start looking at total compensation which is how much money in my pocket, how much life balance do I get? How much am I paying for insurance? Do I have a good working
environment in general? like those are, you know, the more seasoned you become as well as like newbies coming up, you know, it's very much like the whole package, you know, and someone will say, you know, yeah, I want, you know, yeah, I wrote down I want to make $60,000, but
I'll take 45 knowing that I might get a stipen for not taking the insurance or I'll take 48 knowing I might get three weeks of vacation off the back, whatever. You know what I mean? And so it is, >> you know, applicants and employees are looking at the whole thing, right? You know, Friday's off or, you know, it's a
35 hour week or whatever, you know. >> No, agreed. Agreed. I I uh just uh had a a uh government uh customer ask me if I knew somebody that would be interested in a position, and he basically said
everything you just said. Yeah. in terms of he said, you know, you get 2.5 hours for every day you work, >> comp time, you get a pension once you're in the government. Once you're in the government, you can transfer to another agency if you're not happy with this one. Um, you know, the hourly wage is
probably not as high as you'd like. However, >> right? So, I just heard this and um uh so I I I can see it happening. So, um any more discussion from anybody on that? >> No, sir. Okay. So, um I don't have
anything else on the agenda. >> No. >> So, I uh is there anything else? No. Nothing else for the good of the group? >> No. >> So, I will take a motion to adjurnn. >> I move to adjourn personnel meeting at
7:45 p.m. >> Okay. >> Second. Okay. I'll call the role. Arrange. >> Yes. >> Derek. >> Yes. >> Jim. Yes. Thank you everybody. That's been very productive.