call our meeting to order. I have Yes. Okay. Okay. Well, listen. Uh we have a new meeting a new member in attendance tonight, Rosemary Dono. And I'm going to just give Rosemary the
floor here for minutes and uh uh have her introduce herself to everybody and maybe say a few words about yourself. Perry, the floor is yours. All right. Thank you very much and thank you for your warm welcome. I really appreciated that. Yeah. So, for those of you who
aren't familiar with me or haven't, you know, read the pamphlet, um, am I talking loud enough? Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Um, registered nurse, worked at Southshore Hospital for a long time. I'm still their PDM in a slightly different capacity as a
clinical ethics consultant. been doing that also for um many years and um so those are parts of the reasons why I decided um that I would I would really enjoy being on the board of health. Um you know I spent so much time
taking care of people who wound up really sick in the hospital like nobody wanted to really come to my floor. It was always the result of something either catastrophic or unfortunate. um and the opportunity to work on the other side of that fence of doing some
preventative um work. All set. There we go. Can we turn the volume up on it? Got a little volume. at the house.
I had an accident. Um, and I'm powering through it. It'll just be a couple of weeks, but I'll be back on my feet in no time. Rosemary, I did not mean to interrupt you. Go right ahead. All right. No, no, no problem. No problem. Um, so I'm um really looking forward to
the work. My, you know, immediate objective right now is to sort of really get familiar with currently where you are, what the major issues are that you're dealing with and what you're sort of anticipating moving on in the near future and learning from you all. I know you've all got lots of experience
and so looking forward to to jumping in. Thanks a board. Thank you. Well, on behalf of the board, I'm sure we're welcoming you tonight and uh over the next couple of weeks, maybe at the next meeting, if you have some
specific areas of interest that you'd like to explore or work on, you could present them at that time. And right, we'll we'll all sort of get to know each other and uh carry on with what we've been working up. Okay, sounds good.
Thank you. Also to that end, um the member that you replaced was the liaison member to the water department. Um that is something that uh if the board's in agreement, I think I'll rather assume that myself,
but uh I think that you might um be a good fit to uh take on the role of the liaison to the sewer department where you kind of have an end there. you know, that might be too much of an inn. Actually, um I'd prefer to keep to
keep that separate. Um all that to be honest with you, all that entails is on occasion um if there's anything going on in any of those other departments that would be health related, you report it back to the health board. That's all. And I just kind of thought that might be
very convenient for you. Well, it would it would be super convenient um since I do hear a lot about it, but I'm not I'm not sure that that would be the best. I you know, I'm really trying to keep it separate so that you know, his work and my work are
two separate things. Um no problem. And you know I'm not you know my my being a member of this board you know shouldn't influence any decision that he makes and any decisions he makes you know I shouldn't interfere with good
enough. Okay. All right. Thanks. I'm happy I'm happy to lay on with another department committee. I mean you guys do so much for the library and I haven't really done anything for the library. If you want to switch I have no problem. I would love to do that.
Yes, problem solve. Great. Thank you. Okay, so library it is they do a lot. Oh, I know they do it a lot with the library. Yes. Yes. Okay, great. Okay, that sounds good. Has everybody seen the bills? Uh, I have
not. We'll pass them around. We'll work on that. While doing that, can we take a look at the minutes from the last meeting? I have looked it up. I have a friendly correction. Um, midway down on the front page,
acceptance of minutes, it says 3-01. There were only three of us here. Oh, almost gross. Hey, you know, it's okay. So, I had the
agenda in my hand and it said accepted. I haven't corrected you in months. So, no acceptance. No, no, it's just 3000, not 301. That's all. Actually, that that was the one in April 7th, I was not in attendance, so I
did not vote. There was a discussion about whether or not Right. Right. I just I just put the wrong amount of Yeah. So it's it's 201 correct. I had I was president.
No, you were. Oh, no. You were present, but Bill and Joe were not here. So that's still So I wasn't happy. There we go. So would it be acceptance of minutes? She just You don't have to do
0-1 anyone. Sorry. Somebody second by correction. Second. Thank you. Wow. Let me ask you a question. Does everybody have a copy of the meeting minutes from May 5th, 2025?
Yes. Okay. Would anyone like to make a motion on those minutes? Move to accept the minutes as amended. I'll second. Okay. Before we vote, there is one thing I'm going to
um bring up the ADUs again tonight. Uh it's referenced in the meeting minutes from the previous meeting that we would address them at the next meeting. So, we'll bring that up um under discussions later on. So, any other uh comments on
the minutes? All in favor? How we doing? I I Okay, that's unanimous. Okay. Um, well, let's see. Let's
see. Uh, should we do let Oh, let's let let Joyce uh give her health agents report and then we'll get into the discussion items. Okay. Okay. Well, this not [Music] um everything's going smoothly in the
fact that, you know, we have septics that are moving along, you know, plants that have come in. It's springtime, so it's starting to pick up a little. Um I completed a soil evaluator refresher
class last week that was super helpful. Um, tomorrow Lori and I are going to do CPR instructor class in Plymouth as part of our grant um, project. And then Thursday, I'll be in
need to address mobile truck inspections as part of MHA. They've just come down with new sort of oversight and guidelines on how so we're all inspecting the same way because it seems to be willy-nilly depending on
what town you're in who's in, you know, what they're actually inspecting. So the food trucking section. Yeah. So it's really a means to sort of get everybody on the same page. Um and I think that's we are will be
away next Wednesday for the Miha the Miha conference which is out in like Sturbridge. Um so that's an all day thing. So we're gonna go up the night before because it
starts at like 8:00 in the morning. So we'll stay up the night before do the whole day program which some of stuff I get CEUs for. It's also a good training opportunity for Lori. Um, and then we'll come home Wednesday night, you know,
when it's over. I think it ends at like 4 or 5 o'clock. So, do we know who's covering the office? Uh, no. We've already put out that it's going to be closed for the week because there's just nobody to cover it. I don't even have a volunteer like, you know, we have to tax people. Um, and sometimes it's just
easier to, you know, have it closed. in Matt and Val and building you know Paula they'll take messages and if somebody really needs me they can reach me. So, okay. And Miha is what is Oh, you had to
ask. It's environmental health Massachusetts environmental health. Yeah. Agency, uh, health office or association, I think. Yeah. It's Yeah, we have a lot of acronyms. Yes. None of which I can remember. I need a
dictionary. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I did attend a region five preparedness thing last week. And so, um, I'm going to be working with our coordinator to just review and go over
our emergency dispensing site documents because the last thing we have is from like 2018. So, just need to do some work on that and make sure it's up to date and nothing needs to change. That's pretty much it.
Okay. Anybody have any other questions for the health agent on the report? Okay. Hearing none discussions. Item one, board reorganization. Anybody want to make any motions? I I make a
motion to uh pursuant to mass general law and tradition that we reorganize in the wake of a new election and a new member. Thank you, Dennis. Okay. Second. Second.
All in favor? I I Okay, moving on. That one you can vote on. Okay. You've been sworn in, correct? Yes. That one, don't worry. She's all
set. Okay. I make a motion to nominate Joe Casm to continue as chair. Second. Any other nominations? All in favor? I I Okay, Dennis. Thank
you. Could I get a nomination for vice chair? I make a motion to keep Tidy Whipple for vice chair. Any other Oh, can they get a second? I second that. Okay,
good. Any other nominations? All in favor? [Music] Thank you for the privilege. Second verse, same as the first. Dennis, thank you. Cherville, thank you. You're
welcome. Okay. Mobile Integrated Health Programs sponsored by Plymouth County. Joyce. Yeah. So, I was asked to by Keith um to just touch on touch base with you guys on this. I had discussions with the fire
chiefs. Um I think we're both in agreement that it's um they're basically looking for us to as a town to pay money into this to provide services. I I I don't know where this
money is coming from. Um who's looking for the money? The county. Plymouth County. Yeah. Um I have a it's not I I have a print out that was sent. It's not I wouldn't say overly involved.
Um but I guess both after talking to Mark both him and I you know like why why is the town residents paying for something that benefits the hospital um and the insurance companies? Perhaps that would be better left to to them. I
will scan this and email it to everybody if everybody'd like to read it. But um Keith wanted everybody's feedback. So I am presenting it to you guys so you can read through it. Um and no no it's the whole thing. So
I'll scan it and send it to everybody as a PDF. Okay. Can we table this to next meeting then? I I would think it's probably the best. Thank you. Okay. Anybody have any questions on that? I have a lot but I don't even know where
to begin because that makes two of us all this while we talk about it. Right. There's a lot of questions on that. I know there is some issues with funding right now. Southshore hospital has been doing that for a long time and there issues were around getting reimbursement for insuranceances. So can I get that
back and I'll email everything because I think there's other stuff stunk from the bottom of it. Um, could I ask just in a ballpark figure, what sort of money were they looking for? I don't know. I can't I cannot answer really anything. I peruse this quickly and because it's really not
up to me. It's up to you guys. It's not Yeah. Okay. Me that makes that decision. Um, so I like I said, I will pass everything along. You guys can look at it independent and I will put it I'll have Lori email everybody. So, please
check your emails and read it. Maybe it would be advantageous for the board to put it put it on the agenda for the next meeting for discussion again. Yeah, absolutely. All right, we'll do that. We'll carry it forward. Okay.
Okay. Uh Joyce, I know you have strong opinions on this. Let's talk about the cesspools. Well, I think it kind of goes um the cesspools, the witnessing garbage grinders in pre995 all kind of go together. It
really it's really coming off of the ADU stuff. Um and the current uptick in property sales. So, I had an issue with a property that has two cess pools.
one. Well, just for the rest of us, let's go down the list one thing at a time. To the best of my knowledge, what you would like to see the board do would be to vote in a blanket failure on cess poolools
upon the transfer of property or failure of a system. Not not manh hunting current ones that people live in. But when you're going to sell the house and you have a cesspool, it's an automatic fail. It needs to be upgraded. And and
the reason for that is that you know we're looking more and more about water quality and drinking water. What's going if a system if it's a cess poolool it is well over 40 years old in general. Most of them were put in before 85. So
that is a really long time for something to be in a ground that has no um ability to treat the sewage that's going into it is generally there is no tank there is no deoxy it is literally sewage sitting
in a pit so if that in any way is leeching into our groundwater it is untreated and so it I think it's unrealistic to you know be on a manh hunt for every cesspool in the town, but upon transfer of property, it should be
upgraded. A good time to capture it, right? Assess schools don't automatically build title five. Not in this town. Yeah. Now, the difference is the difference is if I can interject. Sure.
A cess poolool is basically an open pit that everything goes directly into. There is no pre-treatment in the tank. There is no storage. which is basically an open pit and it builds up a head of water and gets down into the groundwater
very quickly. We're not talking about a system that would have a tank, a distribution box and a leeching pit. That's not what we're talking about. We're only talking about a cesspool, a straight up cess pool. Yeah. No tag, no
deoxy here by saying that that's if that's all that's there at that junction where the home is being sold, the deed transferred, whatever, it's a failure and they need to upgrade that particular type of of I won't even call it a system because it's not it's just a
suspense because of the sale of transfer of property or the failure of the system. Yeah. Failure of the system failure of the system. We have our loan program available and uh otherwise at the transfer of property you have the most equity or
most financial ability to make the improvements because it's you know new ownership uh new mortgage and that's uh well most of the time they won't let you yeah mortgage company won't let it won't let close with a failed title
yeah you you can't so it becomes a issue they have to just fix it just what it comes down to So Dennis, where I see you are wearing a thinking cap, if you could structure a motion to that effect, you could save us all a little time. I move
that we have a couple of questions for discussion. Okay. Okay. Okay. Once a motion is on the floor, then discussion is u merited and warranted. Um uh I make a motion to um what is it? fail
um all cesspools um at the time of system failure or transfer of property that familiar sale of property too. Yeah. Yeah. Second. Get a second. Done.
Okay. Now, any discussion? Yes. So, does Title 5 address that issue in any way? Uh there's debate on that because they can someone can argue that if the cesspool is functioning that there's no hydraulic what they refer to as
hydraulic failure that there are some towns that are allowing them to remain in existence. Um it is my understanding that Ducksberry, Marshville, Plymouth, Pembrook I believe all have
outlawed it. like you just if if it's there and you're transferring or it's in it's done. You need to put a system in that actually treats the All right. So there is precedence for other boards have taken that step that it's an automatic failure. Yeah. Okay. Okay. We
are definitely not first. Yeah. We're behind the times a little bit. What we're doing is we're taking kind of a a slightly middle road. We're not actively hunting down um cesspool, but if at the time of a transfer or an obvious
failure, then it's addressed. Sure. Okay. Any other discussion? All in favor? I Everybody vote on that. All set. And when when will that go into effect? Immediately. Okay. I just just want to clarify
actually effective 520. It should be upon publication. We need to publish uh this new regulation. Uh so that upon publication it goes into effect because I think that's our policy, is it
not? No, that's exactly right, Dennis. Yeah. I mean, it's good practice anyways, right, to just put that on. I mean, the public has to have ample warning notice that this this is the new rule. Okay. So, and where are we publishing this?
What's the newspaper record? Well, we'll put it on the website as well. So, website, Facebook, anywhere else you want it. That ought to do it. We don't really have a newspaper any longer. No. All
right. Well, we'll should we on that? Good. Uh, there's a new newspaper in Bmouth. uh that's a nonprofit that is a it circulates in this area. Um and if we
want to support uh free press, they would probably love the uh income from legal notices. I love referring to the Plymouth Independent as um they will not publish anything that's not a Plymouth issue. Okay. In that case, never mind.
What about the um the Halifax Plimpmpton Kingston Gazette? You ever use that? I I haven't I know I have my candidate I have my candidate thing in there. Yeah, I just had something in there. So, what is it called? Halifax Plimpmpton
Kingston Gazette. Yeah, I did hear that. All right. So, we'll do it in that and then on the website, Joe, because I I know from a background uh Kingston community newspapers that uh the revenue from
legal notices is is absolutely adored, right? Well, hope not astronomical. Okay. All right. Moving on. I suspect ties in with the pre-1995 soil
evaluations, but why don't we take them again one at a time, Joyce? Witnessing Title Five. What's up with that? Okay. Well, um this has a this has a lot to do with the ADUs um as well, but given that we are seeing
an uptick in title fives and there's been some questionable passes at that soil evaluation thing I was just at. It was a great discussion that there are many communities now that are going to a
witness title five to ensure that they are being done properly and ethically and not for sale. Um that you know I'm sure we everybody's familiar with that there are people that
um oh we we'll get your system to to pass and it's not fair to the person buying the house. this is not fair to the town that we're allowing for questionable inspections to occur and all all I have to go on is the piece of
paper that's turned into the department. And I think by requiring a witness um that at least in some part will make it more difficult for things to be passed when they shouldn't because if there's
if I'm standing there looking at it, it's kind of hard to tell me that there's not a, you know, a water level that's higher than it should be or there's not a big lovely green patch where your leashing system is failing. So, you
know, I just thought I should bring it up because it was a great discussion. I don't think it's a bad idea. Um, what exactly are you proposing? You're talking about septic system inspections which are done by people
licensed and trained by the state by the state in most have insurance and we have our own registration process for them right here in town. We don't they they come and they pay money to get they we don't
license title five instruct uh title five inspectors. We register. They should be licensed though. They have to be licensed by the state. But there's some towns that only have you come license. Yes. Hangingham does that.
Yeah. Some of them have a special license. It's not a disposal works and installers permit. Is it is a license simply to do the inspections, right? Under title five. If if you would prefer
to do that, I'm fine with that. But I think we should have some oversight on who's doing title five inspections because Joe, you know as well as I I'm a licensed tit title five inspector. I know so am I. I understand that.
Right. But anybody you can pass the class. It doesn't mean you're doing a good inspection. I have a question. So if we were to be in favor of this witnessing to the title five, would that be you would have to go out to the site when title five is Yep. what is being
inspected. They have to call, make an appointment and go out and you observe what they're doing and look at what's, you know, what they dig up, what they'll, oh yeah, we were talking about this. Somebody will say, "Oh, yeah, I dug up the debug." You go there. No earth has been moved. So, how exactly
did you dig up the debox if there's no dig box? I have a suggestion. So, I asked you, Hold on, Joe. I got a suggestion. Hold on. Go ahead. Um what if we went somewhere in the middle between this special lensure and
witnessing? So what if you witnessed three by a person a provider of title five inspections and said you know what this guy's good he's legit and then sign them off on the special permit so that you would then have the confidence that
they were going to do a good job because I think it's going to throw so much work on to you and you know there are people that you know are doing a good job out there. Yes. Do you see what I'm saying? I I don't know what the answer is, but I also know there's
people out there doing not a good job. I appreciate that. And then what happens like so I'll give you an example. Somebody had sewage backing up into their house because a pipe wasn't installed correctly. That was inspected. Somebody should have caught that. So
what exactly did they inspect? Because I could see it. Yeah. Suggestions. So I'm saying maybe we do like a screening process so that then you when you get and what happens when you get ones that are
not doing a good job. How do we because right now anybody can as long as you're a licensed title five you can do them in our town. We can say that you're not allowed to do them. Okay. I mean I have more questioning than making a statement like yeah I
don't know what the policy is for that like how do you guys deal with that? The question would be on what basis would you revoke somebody's ability to witness ability to witness the title inspection? It's the
It's the inspection part, not they're not witnessing anything. That would be inspection part. Yeah. Well, if if there's evidence that someone's not doing the job correctly, are they reported to the licensing agency, which would be the state. Okay. D,
right? Yes. Right. Right. It seems appropriate to report them. Have you reported things to the state? Yeah. Radio silence. We report every every quarter we report trash haulers who don't give us our slips.
Oh, so I don't I don't have a lot of faith in Okay. saying, "Hey, Joe Blow is not doing a good job on Title Five and something happening." So maybe that's something we need to track. Right. Right. Document revoke
their validity of tests within the town. Yes. What are your thoughts, Joe? I don't know what the rate works right now has been working for quite some time is that uh uh Harry Smith wants to sell his house. So he gets a list of approved
uh uh systems inspectors in the area from DP or website somewhere and he hires one of them and they go out and uh there's various degrees that uh some of them do to do the actual inspection at
the completion of which they submit it a copy of it to the local board of health where it is then reviewed by the health agent which does give you the opportunity to say, "Whoa, wait a minute. Now, you know, he's saying the the groundwater elevation is over there
is is is down in the ground 6 8 10 ft." And I happen to know we just did a system over there and it was we had to elevate it. I mean, there are little things that you can you can pick up in your review process, but we can't be
asking you to go out and inspect the inspection with the inspector. that could become more problematic. You'd have to make an appointment with the inspector, with the homeowner. Everybody'd have to show up with the with the copy of the report,
walk the property. So, I I don't see that as a workable solution. Um, to a certain extent, these guys that are doing these things, yes, they you're counting on their integrity and and there's no getting around it. You are. And uh uh it's as far as I'm
concerned, it's the best we can do with the system that we have and the resources that we have. That's my opinion. So what do you want us to do, Joe? There's I don't think there's any more we can do other than again the health
agent reviews those reports that are submitted and if there's a red flag by all means now we got to get in touch with this system inspector and say hey what do you mean you know you didn't pump the tank you're supposed to to in order to get it structural integrity but
you say in your report you didn't do it there's little things that Right. No, I mean I review every believe me I review them. I find stuff and I call people out on all the time and I don't think there's any more that you can do than that.
Okay, that's my opinion. I don't I'm one board member but and I have experience in this area but I do not see any other solution to it. Nobody's out there inspecting uh the results of septic inspections that I know of. Nobody's
doing what? Nobody's not audit. We're not auditing is going out and inspecting the results of septic inspections submitted to their office. No, that's the point. We they were
saying that there's many towns that the health agent goes out and while they are performing the inspection and is present and observes as well during the inspection. What's that? I say I haven't run into
that at all. It's possible. Oh, no. I I mean, yeah. No, people were talking about it at the you know, there this is statewide people that go to the um the this class, so they're from all different parts and places that have a lot of septic
obviously. Yeah. So Joyce, if you're telling us in your experience, people have been cutting corners um and you know putting public health in in jeopardy, then I think we need to
take action on that, right? Yeah. Well, it's just it's so what happens is like I caught a this cesspool thing. It originally passed. somebody passed it and I'm looking at I'm going I pull the plans whenever I get a I go in and pull
whatever we have and I'm like this can't be right because there's no debox and there's no tank so I don't know I don't think the person did it purposely they they didn't pass it purposely like trying to be fraudulent because when it was brought to their attention the tune
quite changed quite quickly for a in a positive way not a negative way and I actually consulted with D who then proceeded to tell me that it was illegal back when it was installed in ' 89 uh 79 because it didn't even meet what would
have it was called chapter 11 back then didn't even meet that so if it wasn't for me you know questioning this this next person would have got exactly you know a bad system so I'm
just trying to be preventative to make sure that we're you know is There is is there a way to go to a a tested uh licensing procedure that you want to do title fives in our town? These these are the people that can do it. You got to pass a test like I mean is that a
possibility so that we're narrowing down? Well, that's what I'm saying. If you have three that like or whatever you think is sufficient if you watch somebody do so many so many you know you figure out what would make you feel comfortable.
I think we should Have you Heidi, we could register them and require that they uh give evidence of insurance as well. I think a level of protection if there was a problem later on like with that
system you were talking about with the Right. Right. So you're saying create a basically create a permit to be a licensed title five in inspector here. That requires liability insurance,
proof of liability, a title five obviously they should have their title five inspector license, right? That that's a no-brainer. Yes. Right. But I'm just making sure I got everything and the liability. What else? Compensation. Huh?
compensation unless they're a sole proprietor. Yeah. They're sending employees or bringing employees onto the customer's home, onto the res. They should be covered in the event that somebody gets hurt. Yeah. Because right now, anybody can put
on the word I used was registering, right? And the community the communities that I mentioned, excuse me, register them individually for that particular activity. That's what they're
doing. Yeah. Are we going to charge a fee for that? Yes. I'm sorry. I assume we're going to charge a fee for that for them to register in the town. Yeah. An annual fee, I would think. Yeah.
Okay. What do we think is a reasonable fee? A suggestion from our health agent, please. Well, I What do we charge for installers? 100. Joe, what do you think would be a fair?
Well, you know how I feel about fees. I know. Well, don't take it as a business person. Take it as a board member. I mean, that's the cost of doing business. Right. But how much of your time? Yeah, but it gets dumped right back on the poor homeline. Anyway, dude, if it's
$200 a year and you're doing itund me $50. I think that's a lot. I think that 25. This is why you go with 50. So, so when you set the fees, come on. You can help me with this. Well, I was going 25, Joe. I needed to know what
you were thinking. I was at 25 until Joyce started on me. When I heard the $200, I was like, "Oh, 25." But that's a septic installer. That's an installer. So, you know, I mean, maybe a hundred bucks, 75 bucks. I think 50 is. So, my theory is this. If you make it so, it's
a fee that is not minuscule. If it's 25 bucks, every time Dick and Harry's going to be like, "Yeah, whatever. I'll pay the 25 bucks because I'm going to make it back." You're making a $100 fee, it's going to be somebody who primarily just does in Kingston. Joyce, choice, choice.
Yes. I'm optimistic that the value of the the dollar will someday be reflective of what I once knew it to be. Accordingly, my motion would be that we establish a registration process for those
um people or companies doing title five inspections in our community. Yep. That process would include proof of insurance properly licensed and an annual fee of $50. That would be comp. Yeah, I got the
workman's comp. What's Yes, workman's comp. But this is not per company. This is per title five septic inspector. Not not like um Wind River who has 50 employees who do
title five and they're registering the businesses for each inspector. Am I getting that correct? Yes. Okay. Just checking. I just want to be clear on it. So I have one of the things that D was clear about way back when they
instituted this program was they did not want uh a business owner to come to the seminar, get the training, get the license, and then send the flunky out to do the inspection. Yeah.
Well, very clear on that. So the individuals who whose name is on the license who takes out the the registration is the one who's supposed to be doing the performing the service. Yep. Okay, that's fair enough. And I'm assuming this would be starting July 1st
because we do need to give people some time. Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me. Dennis, what do you think? Come on, Dennis. Yeah, I just This is doing no harm. It's keeping our drinking water safe. That's what I could we leave it up to Joyce's
discretion if she wants to witness if she feels a that she can do that anyway. It's part of title five that I can witness any of that if I so choose. So if I think you're right not being if you're having an uneasy feeling about it
or if I want to see I can actually take a title five and say no we need to go back out. I want to witness this. I just wanted to put that in there for you. No especially in areas that are environmentally sensitive that you know
there is no margin for error here. You know some is a little more forgiving than others. you know, it's an accepted quality improvement measure to do spot checks and make it known that, you know, that's part of the process. I think it encourages a bit more compliance. Well,
they they know that we review that I review their forms anyway. So, Okay. Okay. Now, as far as setting the fees, is that based on the amount of time that you put in to to do this? Yeah. Well, that's how we we've just started to change the fee structure a little bit. And yes, it has
a lot to do with how much time it takes us to go through this these um right different applications and permits take require different things. Right. So based on the amount of time you think each one of these applications would take of your time, what do you feel is a
reasonable fee? No, I'm fine with what everybody said. 50 bucks. You're okay with the 50? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So you guys, we need to make that a motion, Joe. I'm sorry. Who needs to make that motion? I did. I was
waiting for a second. Everybody started talking. Second by Dennis. Thank you, Dennis. You're gonna have to listen to that one again. We've talked this to death. All in favor? Well, okay. That sounded pretty good to
me. Okay. Um, moving on. Yeah. What are you talking about with the garbage grinders? What is a garbage grinder? Oh, a garbage grinder is a thing that sticks under your sink that you throw food down. Right. So, here's the issue. When I'm
getting title fives in, systems are designed not to have one. It clearly states it on the plans. And yet, when we have good title five inspectors will go through the house and they look at they ask questions and they look for subp pumps.
uh laundry dispersing of of laundry water if it's going into the sewer or separate. They'll also look for garbage grinders. Well, when you have people that are installing them after the fact and and your system is not supposed to have it because the system it says if
you add a garbage grinder that your field needs to be 50% larger to accommodate for that. So, we don't seem to have anything in our bylaws that says what happens when you do this. Well, Joyce, my friend, as you know,
that's a a line item on the inspection form itself. Is is the dwelling equipped with a garbage grinder? No, I I know that. My question is, we have nothing on the books that says when it comes back and says, "Yes, there's a garbage grinder."
What What do you guys want to do about it? Because if it's not supposed to be on there because the system wasn't designed for it, that is problematic. Well, wouldn't that be a fail if the system is not designed for it? But I can tell you that it doesn't get
put as such. If it's out of compliance, fail. Dennis, you need to have um a um do you need to have a license? Not a
license, a um permit to put in a garbage disposal. No, anybody can go buy one at home. When you screw it on, you disconnect your sink, you put it on the bottom, you rehook your pipes up, you're good to go. Any homeowner can do it. I mean, it's dumb because it just ruins
your septic system, but to each their own. So, I'm just curious, you have anything in place. Technically, technically any modification to the plumbing system is in fact supposed to be done by a licensed plumber. It's not commonly done
that way, but Dennis is correct. That's the correct way it's supposed to be done. Now, as for themselves, back in the day, what we used to do, we would upgrade or upsize the tank from a 1,000 to a 1500gallon
tank. Some people were even more smart than that. And what they would do is they would get a two compartment tank. Get a 2500galon two compartment tank that allowed that food waste to settle out in the primary chamber and not
lessen the likelihood of any of it getting out into the Legion field. But yes, they are problematic. They they can create some trouble and in most cases the systems are not properly designed to have them. That's That's pretty much
where we are. Okay. So, we don't do anything about it. We just let it go. Well, you know, what would you have us do? Uh, send a cease and desist in removal of the garbage grinder or re um
resize your system. The inspector could easily put a note on his inspection form that the dwelling should not in fact be equipped with the with the with the garbage grinder and that information would in fact be shared
with the buyer. Right. I I get that. What are the repercussions from the town is what she's saying. Yeah. What are our repercussions when garbage grinder is found? Do we want any repercussions? Do we want any responsibility placed,
you know, besides this person? If if if I was the and and I found that to be the case and I made a notation on that that the dwelling is equipped with a garbage disposal and then I say a conditional
pass, which you have the election to do. So, I would conditionally pass the system with a notation saying that that the they they're equipped with this garbage grinder and it the the system is not designed for that application. And I
would submit my report to Joyce and uh hey, they the buyer gets a copy of that. So, if they choose to go forward with full knowledge and not remove it or not take any action, I I can't see where that would be our fault.
It sounds It sounds to me though that that's out of compliance. It is out of compliance. Title five clearly states if you're going to put it in the leeching field needs to be 50% larger. So you are intentionally sabotaging your system which does affect
what's going into the ground. So maybe we need to make it a public notice instead. Okay. Educating the public about right the importance importance of what you put into your septic. Well, we need a lot of that to keep it healthy. Okay. Yeah. And we would only see it
after when they resell the house. When they resell the house, you just tell them to remove it. It's not supposed to be on there. Your tank isn't big enough. The uh So, I think maybe a public service announcement saying, "Did you know?" All right. Well, we'll talk that one to death. Wait a
minute, Joyce. Dennis has something to say. Yeah. No, I'm I'm to in total agreement because um the purpose of this board is to protect public health, not just to promulgate regulations and education is our most important uh tool
uh not punishment or retribution. So if people know that yeah, you can buy uh garbage disposal at Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that, but if you do, you may put your system out of compliance. And I think
um certainly uh and Lowe's and that's the only one that's in our jurisdiction in Kingston. Uh wherever you wherever the items are sold, it's simply a notice they put there. It doesn't prevent the sale. It simply warns the uh the
purchaser if you live in Kingston and you install this, we advise you to check with your board of health. You can't make Lowe's do it because I can go two more miles down the street and hit Home Depot and I can order it online. So you're putting an undue pressure on one
business and not everybody else. And that to me that's not fair. Yeah. Right. I do. And it isn't Lowe's responsibility. They say it's not their responsibility. They don't face any liability whatsoever. It's consumer protection. By the way, you may not know this when you
buy this, but if you do this, this But you're cutting into their sales and therefore sales. What's wrong? People could still buy it. but simply informing people. I get what you're saying, but you can't do it at home. Okay.
So, instead, what you need to do, the state could do it statewide, right? Okay. But instead, what we need to do is educate people. Not only is this putting your system out of compliance, it is also putting your system at risk. Sure. The lifespan of your system. Used to
write, write me up a nice public service announcement. put those writing skills to to use, Dennis. Seriously, write me a nice public service announcement. Yeah, you got time, right, Dennis? I'll make a note of it. Okay, thank you.
Perfect. Okay, moving on. Pre995 soil evaluations. Joyce, what are you talking there? Uh so actually it it came up at one of when I was out doing a perk that one of the people engineers that was like how
come you guys don't required I'm like I don't have an answer for you that you know perhaps if if we're looking at systems that need to be replaced uh because of failure that you know doing a new soil evaluation might be
instead of just digging up and doing a new field say your fails it in risk and they just want to put in a new field because there's nothing wrong with the tank in the debox. But doing a a new evaluation starting from scratch to do a new perk test and soil evaluation to
make sure that where we're putting it is good practice. You want to reper the old leeching area and the new area that they're going to put it in because generally you're not going to put it where it's already
filled. Okay. Okay. So then you want to repro the reserve here. Yeah. You know if it's 95, think about that. That's a long time ago. I was in handover on the board of health at that time. I remember. Okay.
Well, okay. That reserve area that reserve area gets uh gets uh approved at the time of the uh site plan review when they build the house. Um yeah. But think about down what's the
neighborhood behind you? Light and lane. Like all those little Oh, yeah. It's like if you go is Barbara Barbara Lane down there. Barbara Road. Yeah. So you have all these houses that are down there that you know they went right in the
ground and there's another one off of Station Streets the opposite of you. Right. If you go down there's some neighborhoods down there that when they when the septics were put in, they were in the ground and now when they have to be redone, they have to be lifted up
because the groundwater is high. So if it's an old system, it may not hurt. It may not be in compliance with how we do things now versus 40 years ago. So, what you'd like the board to do is
set um is to pass an ordinance of some kind that uh if the reserve area was uh approved prior to 1995 and it's going to be opened up for expansion of the system or reconstruction of the system, what you'd
like to see happen would be that it would have to be completely reper. Yeah. hurricane evaluation. I mean, things change in 40 years. Wanted to understand it. I get it. I don't think it's unreasonable.
No, it's not. But they're failing. They they have to move it. Well, the issue is like I mean you you get places that had systems, but they don't have the separation to groundwater because 40 years ago it was not a big thing. Now, now it is. And you might have had a
reserve area. And also if the water table was increased in height, what was once good 40 years ago may not be good now. Maybe it is, but if we don't look at it, we don't know. Okay. I I I understand what you're
saying, Joyce. Okay. Well, no. Um Cheryl was asking I'm not hearing anything. Board members, I'm not hearing a motion of any kind. I don't know what you'd like to do. I understand what you want and I understand the logic behind it. There is
some um this this is an area that was originally improved approved while the exact activity that's about to go on. uh to to dig a hole in the middle of it again and reper it is not going to be that problematic for the end recipient
and it might afford them uh certain protections. So I would think so. I'd like to know my money wasn't being wasted to put it in something that's going to fail in up the plan and they find out that somebody put a pool in the thing they got our reserve area. I don't
know. You got to establish something all on your own. Anyway, so you know these things do come up, Joyce. They do come up. Okay, everybody can think about that one. And uh let's go back to the ADU discussion. Joyce, I know at that point
we were talking about a fee to review the applications for the small systems to the ADUs which you're required to inspect. So where would what would you like to have to say about that? uh nothing more than I you know I think
that given the uptick in ADUs and the some of the guidance that's coming down we really need to be doing due diligence to make sure that the systems that are being either used or installed or
expanded upon meet all of the criteria that's put forth through DP such as baffled tanks or two tanks in series that um the flow is correct. And really, it requires a good deal of oversight to
not only review plans, but review assessor cards, building plans to see what's going in there, how many bedrooms it is, um, so that we're making sure that it is done correctly so we don't have problems further on down the line.
So, um, what do we got for plan reviews now for our feet? Yes. Well, when we get new construction in, what are we charging for them? Construction is so we charge 200 for when you're doing
new construction. I know that. Um, so I mean, so I think something in the way around that is reasonable. $200 to review for a new system. It's the same tank and
tie it into a small pit. That's it. What? It's only going to be a tank in a small pit on these ADUs. No. No way. I'm I'm going to tell you right now. It's absolutely not. It says that you must ex
It says existing system must meet new construction standards for the total number of bedrooms. Multi-compartment septic tank two tanks in series is required. Any discharge to a non-conforming system must be upgraded. There's all these rules that we got to
go through. It's not it's not like, oh, you just get to slap it down. I'm adding a bedroom. There's a whole bunch of things that there's a checklist I have to go down. This isn't like just adding a a bedroom to a house. D approved small
systems for these additions. It's that's a separate thing which is again still new construction but you also have the option to tie into an existing system if the leech field can support it. It is possible but then you
need to make sure that is a baffle tank or a two tank in series and that the flow output meets what you currently have there. So you have to go through and look at the age of the system. Is it conforming? Does it meet current title five? If it doesn't, what needs to
happen? Then you need to look at tank size. Is it baffled? Is it not baffled? Do we need to add a larger tank or two in series? This is it's like starting from scratch. This isn't like, oh, I'm just adding a a chamber. Rosemary, you must be getting this a little bit. Joyce
and I have these arguments from time to time. Discussion is good. Now, Joyce, isn't it fair to say that in some cases These can be extremely simple and yet in some cases they're a lot more problematic.
I really haven't I'm being 100% honest, Joe. I really haven't seen anything that is super simple. The only thing I have gotten across my desk that's been simple is the addition of a bedroom to a house,
right? Is not technically an ADU because it's basically they took one area and took it to make it into a bedroom for someone that's going to live in the house. But there's no kitchen, there's no bathroom facilities. It's so they
actually already had floor, but that doesn't need an ADU. An ADU is an added it's not an existing footprint. It could be conversion of a garage. It can be the addition of um a building to the side of
an existing house that has some kind of connection. It is a new structure. It is not a new structure because when you convert a garage, you're saying with the equipment, right? But but so we need to talk about change of use of this is to
be recognized. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a question. Uh Joyce, yes. Is this a decision we need to make tonight at this meeting or then later would be good because we're getting slamed with them. Okay. We're getting hit with them. Um do
we could we move it to the next meeting or do we need to make a decision tonight? Estimation. I would prefer to have a decision for a fee because I'm I'm not kidding when we're getting a ton of these in. Okay. In that in that case
in that case my recommendation because we have a professional health agent uh is to follow her recommendation. It's really more about a fee. It's not my recommendation. Yeah. But what I'm saying you guys give us a recommendation of what you believe this board's
position should be and I'm I'm prepared to uh vote to adopt such a recommendation as a policy and procedure based upon your expertise. Well, I I guess you know what? It's 200
for new and 150 for Yeah, we're raising that. Oh, yes. Well, Lor's Lor's got them. So, new new construction will be 225. So, basically we're somewhere between 175 and 225.
because that's what the new fees are. So, it should fall in line somewhere in there, right? I mean, we need we need to be comparable, right? And again, I would ask, does that satisfy how much time you would put into this particular effort? That fee the fee of $200 just
approximately can't go by some things are more complicated than others. So, a little different, right? Right. I know that's a tough question, but it's sort of a guideline. No, that's why I'm saying 175 to 225 is somewhere in that range is would be reasonable.
200 200 I would say 175 honestly because if a lot of people just need to make an adjustment to their current system, not have a whole new build, whole new system.
Because what is our other fee for the 225 is for a new system. 175 is for an upgrade. An upgrade. That's why I'm saying would you consider what I'm fine with that. I I don't care. I just think it needs to be something.
Okay. So move. But what if you what if you have a system that doesn't need any adaptations to accept the ADU because someone originally put an oversized system on? But they probably still will because they ha even if your system the
DP is saying it has to have a baffle tank or two tanks in series. So most people unless you are putting baffle tanks in just tank series. Yeah, I know. But you probably already need it because you have husbands and builders. You
probably oversize the system. No way. Somebody else oversized the system. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. few and far between. Yeah. But there are people out there like me that bought a home that has a two tank system that you
know what I if I need to I might just need to depending on what my leeching field shows I might just need to increase my leeching field. Right. But that would be an upgrade. So it's a 175 anyways. But that's what they said is make it 175 or what it I don't know
still requires review. I still have to do all the plans. I still have to at everything. I still have to make sure that what you're telling me is accurate. Like we've had cases where the one on Naples Street tried to tell me it was a threebedroom, but it's listed on the
real estate site as well as both real telling me it's a fourbedroom. If I just go with the flow and don't do due diligence to look at stuff, then I become complicit in allowing for a system to not meet what standard it should be.
So, it sounds to me like debating about $25 worth of difference. And I'll just say no matter what it is, if it's too low, we can adjust it. If it's too high, we can lower it. Uh, but
let's go with 175. I don't need to vote. You guys are relying on Does that sound reasonable? Yeah. I mean, okay. You have to spend on it, right? Yeah. It's no different than if it was a library. Okay. Hold on. What? Joe, would you consider
this? The purpose of this ADU uh discussion with D was geared towards those people who senior parents wanted to move into dwellings with their children's.
In general, it involved a single bedroomedroom kitchenet type thing with a bathroom add-on unit over a garage, whatever it may be. They agreed to permit these small systems with a tank and a small leeching
system to accommodate that activity. That's what the original purpose of it was. I I'm fully aware that we have fees in place for the upgrade of our systems when in fact that is the more practical
thing for that particular family to do. However, we don't have an individual fee to review the plan for the ADU unit. So, what I'm saying is, would you consider that if in fact it is what it was
originally intended to be, a small tank with a couple of infiltrators and a little bit of leeching uh submitted uh permitted with a $100 fee. And wouldn't that be a random system? It is. That's
the thing. It's a brand new system $25. I'm sorry. If if you do that, that is a new system. That's $225. So 175 is an auxiliary system on an existing lot. Doesn't matter. It's the same facility.
A piece of land is a piece of land in this inf this small system infiltrator. They even outlined it in here. That is allowed, but it construction. But I see what Joe's saying. Joe's saying a lot of people are trying to do
this because we are in this sandwich generation of having our own children yet having to raise our parent help our parents. Yep. So, you know, do we Joe's suggestion Joe would speak over me if you need to, is
that we charge $100 for the ADUs because we are these ADUs are intended for people who are trying to help their generations of families. That's not what we're getting that I'm getting in are for long-term rental. They're not for
people's parents. They're above garages. They're completely separate facilities. This this isn't I 100% hear what you're saying. Like I'm in that situation. Yeah. Um but that's not what we're getting in. And how do you differentiate? You can address that,
Joyce. If you listen to what I was trying to finish, if you just listen to the rest of it, I said it if it turns into an upgrade of an existing system, that's a different can of worms and you can apply the other fees to that
activity. All I'm saying is if it comes in as what was originally intended when DP went down this road, I think we should have an accommodating fee for that. That's just my opinion. Okay. But how do you make Joe, my question to you
is how do you make that decision? Who gets the $100 and who gets $175 fee? You look at the plan. If you're putting in another a brand another tank and tying it into an existing system, that's $175 because you're going to enlarge the
leeching system or whatever you're going to do. If if it's a simple tank and a couple of infiltrators for the to service the unit as intended, I personally that these are my opinions, but that is what I would do.
Dennis, I'd like to make a motion to um uh do it for $175 and leave it at that. It's a we're that's a significant um investment on a part of a homeowner and 70 and we're
talking about a difference on the board of health level of $75. That's not a deal breaker one way or the other. And so just establish $175 and go for it.
I'll second that. We have a motion made and seconded. Wait, he needs to say it again so Lori can get it. Motion to create an ADU fee. Lori wants you to say motion again.
Uh the the the fee for ADU septic review, huh? Is septic review for an ADU is 75. Who seconded it? And who seconded that? I did. Heidi seconded
it. Okay. Um, any other discussion? Okay. All in favor? I. My meetings go a lot faster. All right. Will you vote with yes or no? Joe, put that low. I'll be a no vote.
Okay. Not the first time. It won't be the last. Joe, the last last thing, Joe, is the the frozen desserts um testing. So, as you all know, anybody who gets a frozen dessert permit, they generally it's got
to do with either they're making ice cream from scratch or they're using like a soft serve machine. So those require testing, monthly testing. Um generally don't have any issues with these. Morel comes out, they take the
swabs, the laboratory comes out and takes the swabs and provides us results. Um it has come to my attention that after four field attempts by a prospective business
that is looking to open up they have had four positive form swabs and this is machines that have not been used yet. Um then went to another lab and brought them a sample which passed. And so what
I would like and I strongly urge this for public safety reasons that all biological testing for frozen dessert facilities needs to be done in person by the lab. That owners or managers of
these places are not allowed to bring samples to a lab for testing. there is no way to provide for the security of where it came from, who took it, how it was kept. Um, I felt like this shouldn't have to be said, but um, we have nothing
I believe I scoured we have nothing on the books that says that we require the biological samples to be taken by a laboratory. I will make a motion because I feel strongly about this. I will make a motion that all frozen dessert
testing should be done by a lab in person with continuity of sample throughout the process. Continuity of custody. Continuity of custody. Thank you, Dennis. Continuity of custody throughout the process for testing of
frozen dessert testing. Thank you. Second. Any discussion? No favor. I I Okay, on that happy note, our next mutually scheduled meeting is June 2nd,
2025. Heidi, do we have a motion? Dennis, you to Oh, no. Dennis has a finger up. Yeah. If there be no other business before us, I may move to adjourn. I'll second. All in favor? Congratulations, Rosemary. You made it
through your first meeting. Thanks. Bye, Joe. Bye, Joe. Thank you. Take care. Good night, Joyce. Good night, Joe. Feel better.