##VIDEO ID:VkIad45q57k## I call to order the January meeting of the Kingston Public Library Board of Trustees at 602 um in attendance we have trustees Matthew donah Hill uh Jen Quackenbush Carolyn bramage Emily curtain Library director Don cologne and head of the foundation Deb Grace and the first thing on the agenda is the minutes approval and they were sent out the November and December minutes I didn't know if anyone had any adjustments or edits that they wanted to note if not I'll take a motion to accept both to accept both the November and December minutes I'll second all in favor um great also in attendance is trusty Lee Lewis um then after the minutes comes the budget update okay um so the only um information that I have at this time because there is further um budget meetings coming up there is actually a department head meeting tomorrow morning as well as um a select Board of selectman's meeting um tomorrow evening that I will be attending where this potentially the board of selectman's um proposed fiscal 26 budget will be um discussed and voted upon um so at this time the town administrator's budget um for the library um reflects a decrease of 25 $225,000 from what was asked of the um of the library it was taken from the books and materials budget um I have spoken to the Town Administrator um concerning this um and looking at other Town um departments with their cuts to look at the percentages to see um if there are is if there is a disproportionate um number between the library and other departments and quite honestly it's kind of all over the place um so I can definitely say that you know we we're not um you know being targeted or anything like that um so basically at this time that is the um you know the only information I have um so hopefully you know as the process continues um I believe it's February 5th I have a meeting to do my the library's presentation to the finance committee um you know so I will obviously argue the point for you know full funding of the library so that we meet um you know all the criteria for um certification and you know state aid and so forth um we are able to you know squeak by with that cut as long as the percentages are in play um you know and appropriate um but it's kind a wait and see um sort of thing thank you very much did anyone have any questions about the budget not seeing any then we'll move on to the luminaries recap which feels like million two months ago I don't even know if I can remember what happened let's see it was really cold dressed is an elf yes I was dressed as an elf it was really cold um you know we had Santa Claus and Mrs Claus which was well received definitely not the number of families with younger children in attendance I think because of the weather absolutely absolutely um I off the top of my head I don't have the numbers for for that evening um um you know I think it was a more manageable you know controlled size um you know kind of crowd we um you know we the you know Food Service folks that were there um you know volunteering passing out the goodies and drinks and so forth did a wonderful job and we're very appreciative um we have supplies still left over which will be used at you know upcoming programs um so that will be good the um one of of the things that we had done was we had a table with the trains and so forth um you know kind of moving in motion kind of you know holiday themed items and that seemed to be a big draw for folks so we're expanding on that for next year as well um so I think overall you know it was successful um a lot of happy people um specifically for the heat um you know um and yeah I don't think there's really much you know other I could say um you know but it was very well received and we did receive a lot of steady crowd considering how cold it was yeah and I think people appreciated that Santa's pictures were indoors this year so absolutely absolutely and we and that's something that we're already doing a um completely different kind of layout flow um for next year where we will actually have Santa indoors right in front of the computers sort of thing so this will be kind of the waiting area so to hopefully move people from the front um you know to over there great thank you for all of your planning and the execution of that you know a lot of people commented to on the flyer not necessarily knowing where it was come but the fact that everything was in that one Consolidated place so that was also really well received good work thank you thank you yes the library yes yes yeah how could I forget about the flyer that was like the greatest achievement because it's been something that um many folks have been trying to work on um you know to get done so that there was one cohesive you know information point for the community um you know there were some bumps it was you know information was shared and then information was updated but then not relayed and by the time printing went it you know there was some misinformation um or changes you know for the festival trees there originally was only going to be 18 trees and then they upped them to 21 trees um in times and locations of different things um so what that actually kind of you know taught us was to really reach out to these partners and give hard deadlines and say you know that we'll do our best to have the most up toate information on there however you know for any printed materials um you know at the time the deadline for that that you know be what it'll be but you know we can definitely update the website information um with the QR code at anytime so that would have the most upto-date information and we would try to push people to that um so I would also have to thank um Janna at the clerk's office um for creating the luminary's page and she actually created the QR code for us um with a little dinosaur in it um you know for that um so and so that proved to be you know quite helpful so yes so thank you for bringing that up that was great um and then the next item on the agenda is the first time I think we've ever had photographs as part of our prep material not for a meeting yes so so the atam center um Rob the facilities um manager has um reached out to the historical um Commission in regards to needed pairs at the atam center for at least one of the columns which basically the whole base uh was completely rotted way the inside of the pillar it shows coffee grind absolutely absolutely um and so he has been in contact with them um to try to figure out a plan of action um you know to do the necess necessary repairs as needed and following historical guidelines right um and so this kind of has brought up a whole big conversation um because there is historical work being done over there that is still 10 years in the making um meaning the wooden gutters um it has been kind of a stop and go project with um the person who's doing these um both that and there other projects in town that they're working on um and so both Rob and I are in agreement that you know we want projects to be completed um obviously money that had been earmarked for work you know from 10 years ago prices of wood and so forth have gone up um and so there you know there may be a time that I asked the board to um kind of make a statement for the you know um whether it's to the historical commission or others about um looking elsewhere for different vendor to complete the project um because it is being done on a very part-time basis I mean when I first started here three years ago there was scaffolding up and at one point the scaffolding was removed but the Project's not done um because I think it's been moved on to you know know other projects um so so we're working on that as well as the front facade above the doorway of the atams the um the main original entrance um you know there's some work that needs to be done there um as well and it will be discussed at tomorrow night's meeting um the two trees that are in the front lawn one of them definitely has to come down and the other one the amorist is recommending pruning back quite a bit um but there's a 5050 chance of that one surviving um I personally think that it's going to look atrocious cut back that amount um and potentially you know that could go you know in the next year or so um but the one that's on the right hand side so if you are on Summer Street looking at the building the tree the big tree on the right hand side that is the one that has to come down it is basically rotted um and presents a major safety um concern so it will be brought up um at tomorrow night's bard of selected meeting um so along with these projects besides you know seeking out the knowledge base for properly you know finding the correct vendors to do the necessary repairs is also a question about finding funding for said projects um because obviously these things are going to be a lot more expensive um so Rob and I are going to be working together to try to um find any type of like historical preservation grants um you know that can be used you know for you know any of the work and you know try to figure out what the guidelines are and how things you know have to you know play out with that um so it's going to be kind of a balancing act because in a way it's kind of like having multiple Chiefs in that you know this there's facilities and then there's the historical commission um so I have to also look into you know with it being on the you know the national register you know like what is the chain in the sense of like getting approval as we are you know been put in responsible for managing the building but as far as like these kind of historical repairs and things like that is it the historical commission that has to give the stamp of approval for every bit of work that has to be done on that because there that's more in tune to um you know their kind of purview um so there's little educating that I need to do for myself um you know with that process but I just wanted to bring up you know these concerns um to you guys now so that you're aware and as we move forward that you know we can kind of come up with try to figure out some Solutions in terms of the structural Integrity of the building is the fact that one of the columns or pillars rotted away putting undue stress on the any other parts of the building no um because they so what that picture doesn't show is that they have put temporary um pieces in for that support but there is also the other column that's there supporting it and there was more um technical terms explained to me um that I don't recall at the moment um indicating that the more support was given elsewhere um closer to the like the front of the building you know um that there's it wasn't just the front it was there's there and I think there's a railing of some sort that offers support so there wasn't a safety concern that way but just for that individual and what about like weather variables like if we were to get a foot of snow would that the weight of the snow on any part of the building like would it be changed because of the way that we have it manipulated in the front I don't think so okay I don't I don't think so I don't think so but I think the fact that they've identified ornamental columns or are they serving okay so if they're ornamental columns then they don't really have I was on the original committee that built or rebuilt the ads so these are just to look okay okay but that's actually good news not but the one problem once I saw this one all of the others including the ones in the in the back need to be looked at okay because if this happened to one of them you may have that problem elsewhere or the rear ones not no daring either no okay none of them are in the design of the building fcy nuisance yes remember is they are Hollow these are Hollow they're dressed look very nice but that's all they are what you're looking at is the body the body of this piece here this the river blister is underneath and that's really what's you see all of this s dust is from it's not from this but they're going to be expensive to do oh yeah yeah the building's not going to go down on us yes the other thing is um are there any has the town at all done any additional look into the outside of the building in terms of what might be weakening in the outside of this building I know so they I know that the gutter the um not the gutters the shutters those have been replaced and I think that's um I don't know if it was that that triggered um facilities to take a look at the facade above the doorway um and seeing that it looks like it's pulling way you know um whe and whether that's an issue because there are no gutters I don't know um but I know that that's what he wanted to talk to um I think it was Craig Dalton um who's the chair of the historical commission um they're going to try to meet up to you know do a site visit and review um to take a look at things and try to identify you know and I think the hope is that to identify um any and all potential issues um you know so that we can you know build a plan to move forward with that because if you're if we're going to go and request funding or support for investigating how we can obtain funding then we should probably have our full laundry list of absolutely requests rather than peac mail it and find out in six months that this needs also to be looked at yes um so right after the Adam Center is the director's report okay um so since we were talking about December and of course you know with the holiday and then my week's vacation I had a lovely time thank you um which was actually cool because I think I was in I think it was the Bahamas that I got off the ship and a short walk from the pier there was actually a little Free Library that was sponsored by one of the cruise lines so I thought that was kind of cool um so as far as my director's report for the serious things um I attended the quarterly safety committee meeting um one of the discussions that we had was about our forms um and policies pertaining to um volunteers that um we should have liability language in those forms um so I have to take a look at those and see um you know what we have the the rep from the ins from Meer um had recommended to Tina that you know the town look at having a single um kind of statement so that we are all using the same thing which I think in other areas we do have we're using the statement which is similar to what the wck department uses um as well as I attended overdrive training um you know for more further you know thorough detailed um understanding of the reports that overdrive provides so that we can make better decisions about collection development which also which will be a necessity with a you know reduced materials budget um there was a meet and greet with the new Senator Dylan Fernandez um and State Rep cafra was there um so there was discussions about um you know what kind of support they can offer the um you know Town um moving forward and just kind of putting names and faces together and you know just trying to open up a um you know communication line um you know so business cards were you know passed out and so forth I participated in the interviews for the director of Aging um Council on Aging position um that took a couple of days of you know um intense interviews so hopefully we will have our candidate um to present to the town shortly um the planning department is reviewing the town's Ada policy and they're working to locate grants that would help address issues for um you know for any of those particular ISS you know departments that needed support um I had mentioned that I had had the you know Massachusetts office on disability come through and you know that they had done a report with some of the deficiencies that we had here um um and so she was thrilled to hear that so I did provide that to her um so that will be part of um you know the overall um report we've received notification about the first payment of state aid so um that should be arriving shortly if it has not already um you know reached the accounts the Kingston Garden Club has um been in contact with me and we have scheduled the next books and Bloom exib it for April 8th through the 12th the reception will be on the 9th this is very exciting yes yes I kind of want to do one actually um you know we are still waiting on um a scheduling um you know scheduling for repairs for the LED sign um with Sunrise Technologies um and then the last kind of fun highlight of my report is about the issue that we've had which the eth HVAC system in the teen and children's room which was a result of the printers being on desks and as people working or moving things and the printers are sliding that the printers were so close to the thermostats that it was um messing them up so for example the teen room was 61 degrees but the system thought it was in the 7s because the printer was throwing off 72 degree temperature Heat from that um so they you know came and you know so the HVAC company came to investigate that and that's exactly what it was but in the process they also discovered issues out back so that was great because it wasn't a you know wasted visit um you know to resolve those um but those are kind of the highlights um other than I did submit the fiscal 24 um annual Town report sub article submission um for that so if there are any other don't forget you wrote your Kingston Living magazine yes I vote I wrote my Kingston Liv yes I did that before I went on vacation yes she was very happy that I got it to them early anything you would like to highlight from statistics at this point I shall so um the big things that I will just a couple of things mainly the year-to date kind of report um so for the year to date um in the um you know months comparison you know we are up 10.79% over what we were last year um you know ending you know calendar year um so that was a great improvement over last year's and then for the overall year to date we are down 4.82% um which makes sense you know um but if you look at the step stats that is the best percentage for any public library in ocn um you know if you just happen to look comp to all I do you know and the thing is I am not a competitive person I really am not but I just love seeing that um I'm not competitive at all would be yes yes yeah but it's not a competition at all um so yeah so so we are making great strides um you know as you know as we move forward and this is obviously data that will be you know submitted um as we move forward in the budgeting process so that there's understandings of the work that we're doing and the improvements we're doing and you know the we don't want to lose the foothold that we have um you know due to financial restraints that if otherwise can be addressed thank you very much anyone have any questions for Don and the staff reports were also attached to um in the email did anyone have any commentary or questions about any of the staff reports aside from the unbelievable crowds in the children's room okay any we have Deb here so would you like to give a foundation sure um so just on the Ada stuff Donald I do remember that we had tried to apply for an AARP Grant but we didn't have an ADA policy a townwide one in place at the time so we weren't couldn't qualify for it so that might be something to look into um we had looked into it at um help with the curbing issue that was out in the parking lot that um and um the foundation I we had a foundation meeting since November so I'm feel very um but the foundation did pay for the um proofing of the electric sign so we picked up the tab the $2,400 for that thank you um you are welcome um we are going to be featured in Kingston living for the February issue so they are coming tonight um for pictures um and then we also applied for a T-Mobile Hometown Grant to cover the cost of the new furniture for the lobby um we will be they offer them up to $50,000 we ticked every box that they asked for um we'll be notified the end of um February the first first week in March if we are granted so fingers crossed um if not the foundation will cover the cost for the furniture for the lobby um and I realized the trustees probably haven't seen the updated proofs of the lobby we can we can include them in next month I'll get guys we can includ them in next month and I think um that is it thank you so it was busy even if you didn't have meetings yes um payment of bills but I don't believe that we have any outstanding bills so then old business business uh in the atom Center there was something that wanted to use the space perhaps yeah yes so it's a question about um this sustainability of offering ongoing programming at the atom Center based upon the current Staffing levels that we have and with the offering of exhibits that we've been doing so this kind of this it just came up we had a group asked us about using the space um you know we accommodated them and then they asked they'd like to meet you know once a month um on a particular you know third whatever it was Tuesday of the month or what have you um you know but it got got me thinking that you know by doing so you know that we have to have you know Staffing over there um and unlike other Town buildings that do allow public use of the space without having Staffing there I absolutely am against that and I do not feel comfortable with that at all just giving you know random um community members you know at free range access you know for safety and concerns and you know whether you know there's an issue with HVAC and next thing you know pushing a button you know something happens um so it just brought up the question about whether or not you know to offer you know repeat programming versus you know onetime event you know we can look at the accommodations but to make a commitment because I don't want to say you know that we're going to Sayes you can do this but then something happens and we no longer have staff for that and now I have to now ask you to change your meeting date um whether it be short notice or what have you um you know if you have other options and that was kind of the situation was that they had other options but they just you know wanted to you know kind of try us out um so looking at that and then looking at some of the agreement um you know that we have in the application that you know there is thorough more thorough um research that has to be taken looking at it because there's been there's some inconsistencies um you know because on one hand it says in one part that the space can be used during our regular you know business hours but then we're offering times at 8:00 am in Sundays so do we just need to bring the policy to IMM that that would be the best thing is to you know take you know to review it and um you know just just see you know for you know because I want to be able to offer access but at the same time I don't know if it can be sustainable um you know with the current Staffing levels so prior to the February meeting um I can send out the current policy the way that it's written and we can look at it and see um if we need to change some of the language or how it fits with these requests or this request and potentially other request get if that if you're comfortable with that as a way Tove I mean we can also and it could also be a case of that you know rather than someone you know if we you know implemented timelines um you know for applications that people can't put in a date request more than you know 30 days in advance or something like that um you know so that we're kind of work working within a reasonable like we would know scheduling requests right at that time but then you know things happen um you know so if it's but also if it's a case of that um you know we have exhibits going on then that truly you know for the you know week and a half that we have that limits the use of the space exactly well and it's always been thorny because we have two buildings but not really enough bodies to cover two buildings and yeah yeah and then there's accessibility issues over there I also think in terms of the columns it's a heck of a time for us to be in that building just aesthetically would you like to see some decaying ornamental columns um okay this is how you set impress though right show that first then hopefully in a few months when we get the sorted out when you're back to your AO meeting oh yeah oh yeah um so we'll make sure that the current policy goes out prior to the February meeting and then we'll just go through it and see maybe what needs to be changed and that's always been one of our least favorite policies because it's tricky to work with anything else under your business not seeing any Al motion here love to adjourn meeting at 6:35 all right all in favor all right we are officially 635 --------- ##VIDEO ID:ot3CWFgrXX4## uh you and I no Watson I Brian Don Keith [Music] joining Jay can you hear us hold on I can okay good we're just GNA wait for Keith and then we can get into um our questions for you y so as I understand it Jay there's a couple of questions uh one is on the connection fee policy that was written years ago on whether or not a bettered bettered uh property can have multiple connection fees and then we can might as well just start with that one that seems to be the biggest one to those well a bettered property you can charge a connection fee um that is okay I'm not sure about a a second connection fee to someone who's already connected to uh a system so okay I'll refresh you on the what the connection fee phrase means it's okay what we have in our rules and regulations this is something we we proposed probably 10 15 years ago it was when a bettered property wanted to purchase additional capacity for something um to expand or whatever in in our rules and regulations we have um the town of Kingston has established a sewer connection fee for the purpose of constructing reconstructing repairing expanding sewer lines pumping stations treatment works and other related facilities as needed so I don't know if you need to look at this further or if you're able to yeah but we're we're not talking about expanding the capacity here right we're talking about a connection to a different piece of infrastructure or or the rights to utilize a different piece of infrastructure if it was that that's my understanding I don't have a quarrel that we charge people if we're going to give them more capacity okay with the language being the purpose of constructing reconstructing repairing expanding SE lines it was exp the original intent was to purchase additional capacity when the rules and regulations were put in I think it was probably 2005 or 2019 it was expanded to include all infrastructure pretty pretty much right I'm just not sure you know and maybe it's the terminology of the Lord connection thing oh right yeah I'm just not sure so we have an existing user yes that's paid a better paid a connection fee and now we're expanding our system overall yeah I'm not sure what aside from increasing their user fees you can use under your regulations or under the law to charge them from in some other way to pay for the the the construction or the debt service related to new infrastructure unless unless there was another betterment for something that they're truly bettered by which is a a different question right because you can't charge it that was the whole thing you can't we all know you can't charge a better twice on one one property so well I mean I don't want to say entirely that you can't but if you're getting the betterment that you're getting is for getting the the the sewer capacity so you know over time if we constructed a new sewer system and we wanted to pay for we would still have the ability to do some better mins we'd have to look at the formula for that so I don't want to say that someone couldn't be bettered twice for sewer capacity but we're doing a if we're doing an expansion of the of the sewage treatment plant I I have some doubts that we could charge a betterment for that for existing users that haven't really had sewer that long anyway okay so forget not talking about the allocation okay leeching Fields leeching Fields we've replaced the leeching field because the prior ones were 25 years old so that's an infrastructure project whether we we can whether we call it a betterment or a connection fee well you can so that that's the point th those it's not a weather there those terms have meaning a betterment is paying is it's kind of like a isolated tax in a way where you are paying a portion of the construction of infrastructure that betters your property and they're it's supposed to be representative of the amount that you are bettered so generally we better at the front end of sewer a sewer system because someone is bettered a connection fee is the physical cost to connect you to that system it's usually a much smaller amount but it can be five figures four figures whatever to put the pipe in your in your yard so that's different than paying for the sewer system that's paying physically to be connected to the sewer system I agree with your definition of that particular connection fee the town the from the house to the street is independent of any of our rules and regulations connection fee which in hindsight is probably the incorrect terminology for this at the time it was meant to mimic a betterment because at the time the impression was we couldn't better a property twice so we can call it a special assessment fee if that gets us to where we need to be at the end of the day we we would want to assess current sewer customers a fe that they can spread out over 20 or 30 years on their real estate taxes for infrastructure needs and in this particular case we're talking leeching Fields um I mean I I would want to know a little bit more on how property that have already paid a betterment are bettered by this new infrastructure and what the intention was again I don't want to say never in terms of charging a second betterman but that's what you're doing so replacing leaching fields that are at their expiration date I mean a betterment lasts for a specific span of time we have a to pay I understand that that the the question here is more discreetly can we charge can we charge a second betterment or special assessment well it's the same thing I agree so it's the terminology whatever terminology gets us to will we can do what was the intent of this can I um just to me yeah from my perspective um just to kind of clarify that for you Jay the the the pre-existing leeching field that has been worked on up till today uh was only meant to be an interim SLT temporary one um that only handle the first two tanks that were built and the design for the facility that is in the ground now and ready to be operated as soon as we get approved from D is for the entire leeching capacity of the all four tanks the fully built out system that was designed 25 years ago so I don't know if that helps but the one we have now is supposed to should not have been use for as long as it has but here we are and uh so it's a whole new field that's going to service the entire existing users as as well as all the new users that will pay that we we have like 500 or so open capacity um slots if you will erus it's still open to connect to so is the answer to is part of the answer to this is the users that are hooked up now have paid for the um treatment plan oh the other important thing is we did not pay for that leeching field that leeching fear was paid for by tburg the the one that's in the ground under his driving range so there has never been an assessment made on the leeching field to anybody so now we have a brand new one that will be used by the entire system and I think that helps to maybe bracket it you know you know how tb's been who had suits up to suits and we had this all lined up for him to work with us and at the last minute he didn't want our water didn't you want it for the irrigation system no I I know the history so so he actually put that leeching field in CDM did not observe it he paid for it and he paid for some of the sewers also in his his uh in his Country Club Estates and for that he got the right to use some of the sewers but no one actually on the system has paid for that leeching field so that's I think getting back to elain when we s to think about this in terms of who paid for what and who had a betterment no one's actually been bettered or paid for that LE the leeching field we just we disc constructed um okay so that raises a couple things so again I I'm a little I want to reserve until I know more whether or not the property owners you want to pay a betterment for some additional sewer infrastructure when they've already paid one betterment if I I need to know a little bit more to assess that second I think that if some people have already paid a betterment and this leeching field would be for them plus would be for new users Al together I think that creates some difficulty it's not IR remediable some difficulty in developing a formula because the share of the cost would generally I think would be higher for those that are getting new infrastructure all together and Sewer all together versus those that are just getting improved infrastructure and I don't know if there's been any thought on that usually we involve our engineers in that a little bit but um it has we're we're charging a different us a different eiu rate for those who aren't already taking advantage of the system that's the $26,000 still that's still flexible that's that's that's a number we're looking at but that didn't include this discussion as well as we should um but for your point I I my personal feeling is anyone who's already paid a better is going to not if they have to P something else okay so start with that yeah um okay because I have three of them at least in this room I don't have to go very far ask the question um so that's one piece the other is um I mean to complicate this a little bit is that we've talked about the the 1/3 2/3 which is another question on this fness piece okay uh just to put that on the table so if you come back to the question that you raised we'd have to make an everything we did is a standard form using erus you know equivalent residential units right but my point is that that may not apply equally to different you users who are situated differently so we'd have to come up with that my what I was going with this is we have to come with some kind of a standard unit under the rules in the law that would address what you just said come up with a different kind of a if I may the only fair way to do this is to spread it out over the users if you use a lot you pick if you don't luse a lot instead of hitting every single resident with with federan fee you're going to have to raise the user fee to cover this cost then we'd have to restructure our user fees by usage and not it is by us us yeah I mean it is by usage we've got you have an old lady you're living in a house and she's using 50 gallons a day and you got an apartment complex that's using you know Street bedroom unit using 400 gallons a day unfortunately the 400 gallons a day those are the people that should be paying I mean everybody should be paying that's the only way to spread it out evenly and fairly is to look at a rate another rate increase proba this is oppos to and then go back and look at again what you just brought up is this leeching field was part of the original plan to build it originally back in the day when we built this and we had phase one and phase two yeah there was a you know onethird cut to two3 cut that that still sticks with I think this project that the the leeching field upgrade is still part of phase one and phase two right the the plan expansion is being paid by the US of that was our last rate in well the the the plan expansion is getting paid go by the Bing Fe the future better and the ones that we just sold and the and the fourth tank debt is being paid for by the use for the in rates right now right now right now correct yes so to to yes so the leing fields are can we better them or not for the leing fields and I think that's the first question and then the second question would be what does that amount dictate to which is another discussion that's not going to be resolved tonight on so because right now our outstanding debt that we have to make up for is the leaching fields which is about $400,000 a year for uh for 20 years so I mean I I know that there's a a shortfall on The Debt Service here I mean in terms of that we're trying to figure out a way to get this taken care of I just want to make sure that whatever we do it's legal and I'm a little wary about using certain instruments that don't apply to this I'm going to speak to my my crew about experience about a second betterment they're not going to be popular a second betterment but I'm assuming increased fees are not going to be popular either if you have to go that route I just we just can't just charge a fee though for um another connection I don't think that is legal so okay can we charge a fee for a special assessment well that's a betterment right so that's the that's the question I I I think it's possible but I'd want to know more about the Improvement and how it betters people that are already connected well the fact that there'd be no leeching Fields we're replacing leaching field we rep I mean we're retiring the original leeching fields that like to Brian's point that nobody paid for because of tburg they're over 25 years old yeah I think I think again the issue is going to be what are you charging people there's going to be two classes of betterments here it strikes me and that's going to have to be if we can do it and I well that's that's it should we find out if it can be done first and then we can spend sometime on a teate approach yeah I mean we yes but we're going to have to figure out financially how are you're going to break up the erus so someone is only going to get charged a partial eru if this is just an an improvement to their infrastructure versus someone who's getting sewer infrastructure for the first time as a as a benefit of this um of this expansion well we can't we can't we have no guarantee today that those future people are going to be there so typically it's the project debt divided by users known users at least for the leeching field Dave you pointed something yeah if I could just add something to this discussion um couple different parts one is as far as being bettered I would think by having a leeching field that allows these people another 30 years or 20 years of discharge to a leeching field does better their property as opposed to if the existing one is at the end of its life and it died off it's non-existent anyway it's almost like replacing a roofer or something that you you're extending their access to our sewer system for another 20 plus years is with that fall into the category of being better yeah I mean betterments are just what they sound to be I mean it's not really there the formulas are or can be tricky but you're supposed to you're you're supposed to be charged in the manner that you were bettered so we have to assess whether or not these folks are actually bettered by this if they are then it's possible but I I don't think it's like a full eru because they've already paid for the privilege or not the privilege that's the wrong term but paid for the receipt they've been their property has been bettered by the receipt of pipes in the ground and other sewage treatment stuff so charging them for a replacement of just part of the system is is is I think is going to a little bit tricky I don't think it's impossible but it's going to be pretty nuanced and and I still have to I'm gonna do some research internally it's not going to be popular with those people I can tell you that well raising rates to cover a $450,000 debt every year isn't going to be popular either so no but at least rates are spread across a larger number of people no they'd be the same group of people we have the same people depending upon the use not if we got new people hooked up which just the go so this is the second part of my point if we were to go down the route let's say this does meet all the standards of of being say lack of better word better um if you establish a 20-year path that you take that number and say whatever say it's $200 e betterment Fe um just thrown out a number if all of a sudden 5 years seven years 10 years down the road we have people starting to add capacity and add betterments under their original 22 or 26,000 number you don't have a method necessarily to decrease that betterment fee right that that would be locked in for that 20 year period you'd have a lean on the property so say that third and fourth tank fill in that span of the next 10 years what do you do would you then decrease rates to offset that and now you have the betterment fee plus all these additional usage plus all the betters that came in any betterment that's assessed and that's left at the end of the day goes into un operation and maintenance fund but we're not even close to that we're looking at 2057 is the end of this payment thing well we have about I mean I I disagree a little we have to everything on this project has been looking forward anticipating revenue from people hooking up it hasn't changed we had to put those two tanks on to hook more people up to get the capacity keep going so we're always looking ahead and you go back to the capacity we have we have a unique circumstance where we have a million gallon discharge permit with a 700,000 gallon a day plant so we can hit that 700,000 gallon a capacity and we have right now about 250,000 gallons based on the flow we have today of capacity and if you take those numbers and add the 26,000 we got like $18 million anticipated coming in just on that and then I mean so I think the calculus of this isn't as simple as we're kind of looking at it and we also have with what Kathleen was able to show just not to divert but we do have money in the bank um on that better from the mall so we we haven't talked about that but this when you stop putting all these anticipated revenues and ex in the bank revenues and if we have more capacity and more people hooked up our rates that we just established bring in more money so it's it's all these things tie together the more people we have hooked up the more money we have to give to Dave to run the plant and not have to raise the fees and the more money we have coming in we have $26,000 per or may it may be 30,000 I mean I don't know we've said 26 but it might be 30 you know when you think about 22 and that was said it 20 years ago the inflation factor that isn't a big number really U so I mean there's a lot of different pieces so good the thing I'm concerned about is I'm looking at the Statue right now and I have to do some research section 1D of chapter 83 says not withstanding the provisions of chapter 80 and 83 to the contrary a municipality acting under Section 1A may make assessments upon owners of land AB bu butting a private or public way in which a common sewer has been laid only at the time of actual connection to the common sewer so I have to do some actual research to find out if a second better can be done at all Jay just I guess from my point of view if we can find a way to do this I have I've got no issue with I just want to make sure we're doing it right I mean that the question I think comes down to um we have existing users that have been that have been ultimately discharging to a SE to a leeching field for the past 20 so 20 or so years um it needs to be replaced the funding was approved um the the leeching field was constructed and it was became operational earlier earlier this this I'm sorry in 2024 the the CH the challenge is the leeching field was built larger than the existing one because we now have four tanks rather than just two so it was sized to be able to support the expansion of the Lee of the transfer or transfer station of the sewer plants so that is with the understanding expectation that there was going to be new connections to water which meant new connections to sewer beds would be assessed and and the leeching field would be paid off is part of the the the betterments from new connections those new connections aren't have not uh have not occurred because as you know there's a there's there's a water moratorium so the challenge for the sewer department is they they have debt to service the plant expansion and the leeching fields um and the anticipated Revenue they expected to be able to pay for the the leeching field debt isn't coming to fruition because there's no new connections um so when we spoke two or three weeks ago I think you're saying you're saying something very similar tonight that you said then which there may be an opportunity to charge a lesser betterment so to speak amount on the existing users that have that uh have been paying their better for the original um plant construction um but not as much as a a new a new user that's coming on board um to the to the to the being connecting to the sord operations um and again I connection fee betterment fee special assessment I think they're all the same they're all all those terms in this particular situation are being are being um are are for the same purpose even though there's there's I think two or three separate purposes for them typically um so you know Sewer Commission is looking to fund to to support the payment of the of the leeching fields um and these leeching fields haven't this hasn't been built yet it has there'll be operation in a minute they're operational two months ago but we haven't got appr from DP yet so they were any day and they were built they were built for two reasons I think and you guys can correct me from wrong they were built a to rest the original one because it was 20 25 years old so it could be used as a backup and B when the with the construction of Tanks the expansion of the W of the sewer department tanks three and four the leeching fields that have been here for the past 20 years will not support all of the discharge from a fully operational plant meaning having all four tanks either completely filled or or nearly filled that's correct but even without adding the new tanks we still would have needed to build I agree but it may not have been as big the fields we put in and just built were always meant to be the final permanent fields for the entire plant forever so these will never need rest never these will is big enough so we can they rest within themselves you can move you know move flow around so they they they will last forever forever 90 years um the ones that were put in were not they were meant to be a temporary 10 year to 12 year only use and they ended up running a lot longer and they're at the verge of failing at the edge of failing so the new the new information I heard tonight frankly was that the town didn't pay for the existing leeching field so that's new to me Jay so I guess uh coincidentally the existing users have never paid a betterment fee for any portion of the construction of a leion field however the existing the existing customers have have ultimately pumped effluent into into that leeching field for the better part of 20 years right and now we built a new one as as uh as was mentioned by Brian to address the one that was supposed to be temporary and again to some extent was sized to to a to a point to be able to support all four tanks one that's built is definitely was designed so um for four tanks so I think actually for more than four tank I'm just make actually more than four tanks million gallons versus 700,000 cut it all again we have to be out of here at 5:30 tonight so Jay do we just leave this with you and then whatever you I'm gonna I'm gonna research it I'm a little concerned and I've just been sorry to not be looking at that at this screen I'm a little concerned about I'm gonna have have someone in The Firm do the research on Section 1D but whatever direction we need to go we just we need to right I I'm not gonna I just don't want to tell you you can do a second assessment on someone for new infrastructure unless I'm sure of it okay that's sounds reasonable that you could for new infrastructure especially if you were replacing a 100y old infrastructure but I can't sit here and tell you that that is the case because of this particular um section okay that's fair enough um should You' sent him the traml crow agreement we did yep y Jay we have another uh since we have you in in a public meeting we have that traml Crow agreement on uh the $3.2 million where we Ed 1 point six for the pay off a ban and we have another 1.6 uh being treated as a betterment for future payments and we believe uh that that money could be accessed based on the agreement to pay off some debt to get us through maybe the next year or two I need to see it send it to me send it to you so Trish sent it to you yesterday Jay yesterday afternoon along with the link to uh today's meeting okay depart so that's our next this is a traml crow money yes for the apartment they didn't spend it on on is Thomas that's uh interesting so I I make a joke I know I know so that's the gist of our question right now it's being treated as a betterment and we believe that it it's available funds okay I'll look at it okay yeah that's good just I think there's just kathle had put together and showed us this was great to find that it has been applied and apparently applied as from a typical accounting guidance procedure out through 2057 to to show that in the bank accounts doesn't pay the whole debt but it's it's out there in the future and what we're saying is we very much would like to pull it back and take go take the debt off the table that we have this year and next year and all these other things start to come together we can deal with them instead of trying to do it by the end of the afternoon it feels like um so that's the question is okay okay I so two two discrete things um we'll have to do some work on them um and I and there is I think there are time limits too when was the project completion date on the sewer which which one the one we're trying to do the betterman on of the leeching fields that just happened um what what what well the the contract completion date was is actually I think March of this year we were actually um essentially complete in August um the tank for assessing a betterment there's under some statutes it is six months under sewer it can be a reasonable time period so uh I we'll try and get a that's that's why I made the point that D has not officially approved and signed off to this day okay so it's really not that that helps with a starting date I I think clock's not ticking yet as I saw this slip and I said to myself stop pushing them stop pushing them just for this reason okay all right we're going to look at some of this stuff for you all okay anybody have anything else before hi cath in the back here um the vment allocations we were kind of talking about varing spots of money paying for the same um Debt Service if we have to calculate a new assessment for all current users would that be against the total cost of the project or do you have to set money aside in the anticipation that new users if they're assessed betterments would be paying towards that same project as a whole because it it almost sounds like you're you're trying to assess and collect more money than you're going to need as you're doing multiple assessments against the same Debt Service yeah I guess in my mind my mind Jay you the existing users may have to contribute towards the cost of the replacement of the leeching fields there there was enough capacity in the there was enough capacity in the in the in the in the in the current plant to provide disposal septage disposal with two TXS so in my mind the differentiation is if I'm an existing user that's been been there for 20 years there may be an opportunity to charge the existing users a betterment just on the cost of the leeching field New users who would not have been able to connect because the the the treatment facility was not large enough to me would be be charged the larger benit for their portion of the expansion of the leeching field and the construction of a new I'm sorry the expansion of the sewer facility and the construction of a new leaching field so to me that's the that's where the uh the two the separation uh can be determined one one is the whole project one is just the leeching field that's a I agree with you I I don't I don't know exactly how we do this assessment yet if we the first question I want to answer Keith is can we do it I I I completely agree with you I completely agree with you Jay I don't know if you can or you can't but I guess the Kathleen's point I guess from my point of view if I got 10 bucks and I've got you know i' I've got a certain amount of users that have been on there forever I take whatever the cost is uh for the leeching field take however much how many many customers I'm going to be able to get divide the total cost by by the total customers that can be serviced and that number is the betterment assessment and then for uh the new users it's the plant and and the leeching fields and that's the number doing the same calculation with two different cost amounts right the the the cases say can we see if we can we see whether or not it can be done yes before we go down this path sure because that's that'll end up being a whole another conversation but but we're on the same page that's the intent leaching Fields with one amount and then additional customers would pay another amount so the only issue is and again I know we to figure it out right right I understand that you've got to because you don't have anywhere you don't have any new customers or very very very few new customers for this new tank or the new tanks the expansion and the leeching field there's no not much money coming in to offset the cost of the debt you you have very little to know better benit coming in because of that's your shortfall right and that's why this traml Crow decision is is imperative I agree I just think I'm concerned that you if you ever get to the point where you've got too much money you take the cramel throw and you cramel throw money and use it for something else but um if you if you use the 1.6 in the first two or three four years of the debt then that's gone and I don't think we want to do that either I don't know you want to do I think for the next year or two we still have I looked at it we bring ourselves back to 2047 that we just take the last 10 years and then we take care of these two years get ourselves in order and I I I've said this we're going we're going to be very quickly on a we're open for business sewer compartments open for business no more restrictions come on in guys you are you just don't again I think that's awesome right but who's who can I got no new connections for you yeah we work on I don't have a lot of working on that okay fair enough one point to this whole discussion too I believe is if the current users do pay this additional fee for leing fields and we do get new customers who are paying betterment to tie in sour system um and paying a connection fee they paying a connection fee to tie into the sewer plus a betterment fee for their share of C no it would be one okay that's something you know going forward in 20 years the town's going to be up against the same thing so you talk about forward looking would you then have the new users pay their vment Feed plus a leaching Fe so that now that money is set 20 years down the road let's say this Le again their betterment the new customers are are going to pay a betterment I think on the entire project which includes the building and the leion well with the new customers we'll get new Revenue with bettering I misund we're better the betterment's going to go up to deal with the the the original determination of 22,000 but we now have values I mean if you go back to what every house in the nook when we started this thing had a value of all prac the purpose is zero irrelevant you know but I'm saying the better really didn't affect wasn't based on other betterment type analyses of what better this was on just the that's why we use the eru well it was based on the cost the cost to but it was based on the standard understand that cost to build the to build the then back in yeah okay but now here we are with a whole new set of of debt that we will raise the betterment accordingly yeah you should raise the betterment to support that's saying 26,000 yeah for that I think Dave's concern was like you know when all this betterment money goes away you're going to have to start this whole process again far as5 years another that's that's that's that's over 15 years hopefully side a percentage every year Meet those goals up with that percentage 5% 10% right so I just I just have a concern about logistics if if this uh betterment does go forward it would be a um a great deal of work um and I'm sorry no go ahead um we're coming we're coming there's five minutes um my concern is that in order to kind of get the legal opinion figure out the calculation go through the process of documenting it with every single user in the system getting it proper getting it put in the tax bills maybe um maybe a a very very short time frame to get it for the July 1 bills well we we've been working well Genie has been working with munice that's it's not because it's assessing that's going to put this no it isn't that's why I want to help you with that no there that's to do it okay well then let me say this we can give you the tools to help you sure because Unice has stated if they have a spreadsheet with the with certain information on it they can upload it into a batch into the ammonization St let's get J let's get let's get J I just I just wanted to expect we'll some research we'll get back to you probably won't be till early next week sounds good all right thanks sounds good bye okay bye I'm just saying un has said that once they get the file yeah well it's I I just want to talk if you well I just I just in talking to the assessing department they had concerns because there was some issues in so far as formatting these types of files and having issues because you then have to go back and double check all of the work I so I I just want to put it out there there may be an easier thing but it still requires a great deal of effort on the part of multiple departments and it's it's a short and that's that's what I can you give us some deadlines if these go out on the preliminary bills which are July 1 what's the backup I mean I'm going to guess the the print vendor is going to want their file no later than June for us so when would the file start to be created that would have to be something that Moren Clark and uh would have to talk to us talk to mun and um see how quickly you can get all the documentation from all the users okay we can provide and the leans getting all the lean the leans we handle that as well we handle preparing the spreadsheet and we can prepare it in a format that mun is is looking for um then whoever passes that on up to Unis is it's a spreadsheet they'll be testing we'd certainly have the staff involved in a testing Genie and maybe Aaron I don't know we'll have the testing of the file then it'll go to the print vendor and then it'll be squat checked and during that span of time we will record the leans like we have for the other projects we've done so the the bulk of the works on Wastewater I just want to make sure that we're not going to be so that's how I see it occurring I can put it in an email and then you can bounce it around and see if I'm missing any any steps I think what be what would be helpful at some point is to have a is to have the assessing Department along with gie if she wants to be there just have a conversation with being just to understand I don't know that I don't know that assessing has ever uploaded a file from spreadsheet into the assessing database and have it be ready for billing so that might be a new process it's just going to be learned yeah and we could figure out how to do that so we don't have to key it that'd be ideal that's the whole goal I mean I understand if it can't happen that way it's a massive project so will you know what might make some sense is to reach out to munice and jeie has a contact there that she's been talking to U trying to talk to the same person so we're consistent and um just try to get everybody with a little bit more understanding of what the expectations are what you know spre the spreadsheets not to set up the right way must have some specific specification we can we can we can create that I sh you there were some concerns in just talking to Moren about the process that there was concerns the way our partial IDs are set up and ination that it's you you it's it would have to be due in very saying because of the way this parel yeah we can certainly work with you because yeah I just I just want to set a realistic expectation I mean I know we make everything so the goal no Magic Buttons found yet we want to have it on the tax bills and D I would have to so we have to so we would have to work that's why work backwards which is what you're doing I I'm not arguing it yeah um so you know it might make S sense sooner rather than later to have a conversation between cess SE County if they want to be there in and just to understand from our from our end what has to be provided to Meers to have them dump it into whatever they have to dump into training so she's doing some training and they have provided us the fin they provided vered just getting all parcel information that in that file doesn't it help this whole situation if we hate money that's in the betterment at least just for this year to make us whole if so again if you if if you can if Jay says you can do it yeah nobody can stop you my my concern and you've shared it is what happens three or four years from now potentially when when there still isn't enough betterment Fe Fe being because we answer both questions yeah that money you know in a couple years is gone and you but that would be you know if you don't have any other Sun sources of then just be us the next deadline after July if we can meet that have cash flow so we the actual bills it's six months away it's six months we got time because we don't you can't really approve your budget to P for something if you don't have funding sources worst case we use Surplus reeven you have $411,000 in free cash that was certified this fall that hasn't been allocated yet worst case we can use that so let's let's wait for Jay next week I don't know what the training is going to be with munus but if it makes sense to have somebody from assessing there I don't know just to get a little flavor what what the training is for be good again might make the the S Department a little more woman fuzzy well I don't I don't think that they're too they just want to make sure that they realistic so get everybody who needs to be involved if this is the initial training let's get them all in a room set it up talk about it see what we can do and see what see we move for yeah so if you can figure out when and where training is and what it's all about if it makes sense to have somebody processing or counting or someplace else yeah just because we have to ma out so with the with the betterment or whatever they're going to be called is the intention to take the full cost of the leeching field project and divide it by the, 1650 three people users no we plan on in four years to be fully sold out that for tank but in the interim so those betterments will not cover the full debt no it it will it's not divided by the number of properties it's allocated based on eus but again until you sell them you don't have until you sell eus you don't have the funds collected to pay the debt right but I'm all I'm saying is the cost of the leeching fields is not going to be divided by 1600 properties it's going to be divided by depending on what J says it's going to be divided by eus if you have one eiu you pay X if you have two you pay if I understand what the 1653 property that's the existing users yes so a portion of it's going to be existing users and if they have one eiu it's X if they have two it's y right on top of the 1653 users there's an expectation that there's there's a certain amount of avail aailable capacity and we're going to use eus I guess as the calculator there's a thousand eius left those new thousand the new thousand user the new, buyers of the eiu are going to pay their share of the leion field and the other half of the expansion yes and the question for that is what is our actual this is the question I've been asking elae if she could find what is our actual debt that's we have now now that we have the you know what the leaching Fields cost it's 8 million change you should have that in your contract you the contractors but we I'm looking at what's remaining in the first space there still and then we know what the second phase is we know the Le the first phase is is the expansion of the plant right no the first phases all the sewers that were done in 1999 to there there's you don't get any of that back no not getting it back I want to know what it is how much is it how much is what's how much is the debt so we can we can that whole I don't know that you can hit them for for that no no no this is for a different this is for that betterment that goes forward for anyone who's not hooked up I want to make sure that the betterment is not 26 if it has to be 30 I agree with so that's but we don't know that number right okay there grants paid and it's very confusing when we look back at that spreadsheet but all I know is that we are still paying debt through like 2036 or something sure I I'm just not sure the existing user who connected 20 years ago is responsible for some of that no they shouldn't be resp at all I agree I understand I apologize I'm just trying to make sure other new should be should cover that the new vet has to cover that plus I guess I'm okay I understand yeah we have we have first phase phase one then we had phase two then we had the plan expansion and we had the leeching field so we have four separate debt projects yeah and the betterments in that are currently in place are paying for phase one and two there there's not a shortfall when phase two came in that we expanded the the infrastructure we took on more customers right so new so a new user tomorrow shouldn't be paying for any cost of phase one phase two this goes back to the plan on putting together which is almost done there are you keep saying 500 so just you think this should be easy a fulltime job or something yeah well so many people work just you think it'd be simple there's at least 500 lots that will be that haven't been bettered that haven been anything but they're going to get bettered and they're going to get bettered Than A number close to 30 grand all right fair enough or the mall expansion that's coming all kind all right we get out here thank you you all with me this is a letter I think is appropriate this is draft we haven't talked about it but it goes to another part of the equation this is trying to get just for you to think about we're going to talk about it but it's just appropriate for now since you're here can I have this yes you can have that I I'm not going to share it with anybody this is your story to tell them not we are meeting next Tuesday yes second or third make a motion to adjourn second all in favor