All right, it's now 3:45. Call the Kingston Water Commission to order finish up signing all the bills. We have minutes. Are we both here for the date? We know we order a lot. No,
>> guess we need that. Um I know Elaska might be joining in but don't see there yet. Um remember otherwise let's go right to Christian
>> what do we do Katie first? Yeah, sure. She should be quick. >> I think I told you on any >> um so my name is Katie. I work for know in the village and I work over at Crown Center in Kingston right on Independence
Road and we are an adult dayhotation program for adults over the age of 22 who have either a diagnosis of an intellectual or de developmental disability. The individuals who attend our program are people who probably will never get a chance to get out into the
workforce um either by want or by ability. And so the reason I'm here today is because we have several individuals who attend our program and they have for at least five years petitioned us to please please please
uh let them have a car wash. And so this is really like a a fiveyear dream in the making. Uh the particular individuals who have requested this from us are people who given other circumstances in life they would be out working just like
you arrive and they really have an interest in vehicle. They have an interest in being social and working in the community. And so this is an opportunity for not only those individuals who asked us about the wash, but all the other folks in the program to get a little taste of what it's like
to uh to do some work and to do some volunteering. Um so we have the proposal here is just a one-way event. Um in total we're only looking at nine cars given the our own side of constraints
and what we think is accomplished in that time. um by very scientific method of figuring out how much water he could use. I told the gap times how long it took to fill a gallon of swap water. Um but all said and done, we're looking at
a total duration of 90 minutes for the car wash. Um 35 gallon of water and then like about four minutes per vehicle of water use. So >> I think your goal
It gave people the opportunity that they weren authorizing one day wash. Give them a reason to be there and a reason to smile. I hope
one day you won't let go. >> Are you ask more than just our last water? >> No. You just know that there's a water restriction and we didn't want to uh that's great. >> Yeah, I think you definitely though this
this more than meets the the tier four for years. >> Yeah, most second is approved. That's great. You sure you don't want any cars out there? We so this is the first time we've ever had an opportunity to give it a try and
we thought you know we looked at the time and we said how many cars can we reasonably get out of college and so let's give this one a little whirl and if we have if we have great success then I think we'd be open to increasing the number because I know the the folks that
come to program would love that right >> thank you so much >> thank you for your time >> thank you yes I was like I'm going to bring all this stuff that gets it all over. >> Anyway, >> thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Sure. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> Stop right there. Go ahead, Kristen. >> Okay, very good. Um, so updates on projects, the main street water main
project. Um, the punch list items are still pending at this point that coordination needs to happen with the mass DOT sidewalk project. Um, so now that and with Chris being back around, we that was one of the other stipulations is that we wanted Chris to
be around for for that work. So, um, that still needs to be done. and project cost updates. Not too much has changed. We did get another police detail invoice submitted, but it's just about the same contingency that was last the last time we talked about it. Um the next project,
the new well project, Kleinfelder is finalizing the um WS17 permit application. That's the request for site examination from Mass D. Um that we anticipate that to get submitted either this week or next week.
Um they are also moving forward with the access road survey. Um that's for the alternative C uh route that was the shortest route and once the design is ready for that they will be submitting a permanent act application to the
conservation commission. the drinking water state revolving fund uh program project evaluation form that's the sort of um submittal interest submitt for funding is due this Friday
um client provided us with a draft last week we turned around comments on that and they are incorporating the comments and are going to provide us with another draft review um as soon as I see that come in and we'll turn that around right away um Since time is of the essence, we
want to make sure get that submitted on time and try to get as many points as possible for that the scoring of that uh project evaluation form. Um those are the updates that progress that's been made since the last meeting.
Um do you have any questions? >> I read through the minutes of the meeting. It seems like Kleinfelder is moving along as as quickly as they can. Hopefully that D moves along as well.
>> Yes. Yeah, they've been the Southeast region drinking water program has been very responsive over recent years. So I expect that they and they know that this is a high priority project. Um so I believe they will act on it as soon as it comes in and turn it around as
quickly as they can. It's a good question. I know the past war I mean well my own opinion is I don't believe there
was far enough a lot that we can put in a month. What we really need is the amount it's going to take to build it. I don't think we're there yet. >> Yeah. >> I'm done with it. >> We would love to be able to do that, but we could put the wrong amount on.
>> I just wasn't sure if that changed. >> Chris, if anything comes up, you think that they could do something earlier, but you'd have to have something pretty soon. Yeah. I just >> What is that for you, Christian? form. >> Yes, that's it.
>> All right, over to Chris. I just quick update uh the work with Kathy and Keith that finalized chemical contracts chemical co-op and dual hangups with one better
contracts file. I heard a little bit about this before we have issues with slides or it's going to be a photo finish. So this is a new venture or somebody it's it's one of the
issues a bit more. I think he probably said weeks as it that's a bad abuse. If if they don't come through, what's our fault? Library order.
There is no they don't have if they can't deliver that's the only value. So I'm hearing it's it's should be resolved. It's the benefits. It's hope just
hopefully a few years a >> So and when when when's our uh concern date? What? Monday. Friday. Monday end of day tomorrow early Thursday. If it falls through, what are we looking
at on Monday? If we run up be a lower pH water which of course is a long term sorry short term short term you know the pops by see
shortterm but hey it's for long okay all right they didn't truck for the Pullman has been ordered. Uh it was I possibly one to three months uh to see the truck.
He had a say a individual with a representative from UMass College. It works eventually like program reached out to uh preschool on main street
volunte rotation based on the sampling guidelines. It'll be on the rotation this year. This organization went out, they collect samples, came back with adverse
cost a lot to the deputies of the preschool diligent he was resolve but the agency previously thinks there might analysis down yet or no he's I'm waiting for our
results in the background samples on Friday something else. So time is operating normally water
they have scripts that you said that this is one of the location you use on a regular basis. >> Yes. Has there ever been any indication of any lead in any of the service testing that
you've done at that location or in general throughout the town? No. From the the back levels back down at that area saddle failed saddle.
on their side. So all the floor was on a properly what comes in that gives them water check because water a lower pH where should water is bonded for that. So it's kind
of almost a chemical impossibility to have this is what is what I feel I think the analysis you know flaw is probably where but just for anyone who's paying attention to think about that to get lead the water take a lot more of what
is happening those pipes right now it wouldn't be a short thing from our wells up each service life on their private if that's If you do samples 24 hour
first samples the water sit still have first drop let joint that get that first brush line hopefully fresh water they
so that's follow from the mass that s of their second gear testing procedures or they just they they collect the samples and that's it. They sub samples expense. Everybody's got any issues
samples that take long. It's just I spoke to and uh just interested usually I detect burst that will go down that
lot mix up or hot water. something and they just kind of came out on their own or why did they choose in talking to the individual mass they
have a marketing sourcing program to get free sample out there that in turn opens the door for school organization like that grant money to place uh pictures or solve
it's kind of like a homework sort of actually >> so it was it was a solicitation to this this address that they respond to and they act on that financial
stage in detects I can't sc but see we're working on a resolve on Uh I had a conversation with it. So
wait the test. Yes. Uh some >> new business. So big request. >> Yeah. This one been brought before you. >> Yeah. They had a shot on the
wall. um they didn't sign that until the March though um but it wasn't until April that they actually posted there. >> So the already geration on the March I mentioned that it's probably going to
come back for again June. So they already have the the proof leak fixing and the number four. >> Yes, that's all. Yeah. Motion to reduce the use of bell to the lowest tier.
>> Don't believe it. Second and approved. >> Then last thing on new business is our discussion the mask in the moratorum and I guess um moving a little bit because I had a conversation with Jim the D. Uh I
called him last week last week sometime uh just to kind of see if I could find out uh when we could expect a response from them in terms of letters sent out there. um once he returned my call um he
the response they're going to be sending to us isn't really much letter but more the fact that uh we're on their radar in terms of water usage and that they're they have concerns about water usage simply you know on account of water and other things like that and they're going
to ask us to sit down and kind of review our processes and what we are planning in terms of how to how to deal with the water usage um and then also what what assistance they could do for that. um your question
>> I do that's you know we historically have been very cogn of the fact that we're having a lot of conversation conversations change depending on who's listening to what others said it's always been
important you want us to carry a paper tracking system of what we're saying so it's not one person hearing what then did somebody else something else if we've sent company to D Chelse and Jim
Gro and we have yet to get something back from him in writing not that I disbelieve what he said to you but it's just it's really just hearsay you know we took a great deal of
s expertise using Kristen's expertise to talk about internally whether or not we should move forward with a water truck. We did it so that we protected every single resident should something appear. We didn't do it
because we were worried about moratoriums as far as sew hook up concerned. You know, we have someone from SEO come in and talk about they need the money, you know, because they were in financial bond. Now, I look back
over the history of the Soul Commission. The soul commission basically uh did two phases. The initial phase which was locking north and the second phase extended towards center town. In both those cases,
one of the key principles was to clean up the water that one ran into Jones River and because that water that goes into Jones River extend that goes into the bed and that's where Ro became a major
point of interest and yet the soil commission for whatever reason purposefully excluded Main Street from some to tourist corner and the side streets off of that roughly 100 homes a
relatively short easy piece of pipe to install where you've got pumping stations at walking room. You got pumping station at the server town and you have pumping station at Burk Street. Which means that if you got your head sore from those approximately 100 BS,
you wouldn't really need additional pumping capacity because it would all flow downhill. uh to say that we put in a mortorium and now we have stock growth on the town. We understood
that we would be we striking it but we did that so that we could protect every single person in town to suggest that we should be able to lift that immediately and if something should go wrong we can put in a total ban and and and police it
ourselves. That's sort of like putting a fox in the hen house or after the horse escapes closing the barn door. I am not opposed to looking at lifting the moratorum. I'm opposed to doing it until
such time as we are completely convinced that we have a plan developed. We've got the money to build the well. Once we have a construction contract where we can have a relatively defined day of completion,
we would be in a much better position. I know uh historically I guess it's been about 44 years I've been involved with building three major capacity wells, two treatment facilities and two tanks.
So I've seen this department from where it was when I first started to where we are today. To suggest that any one of us is opposed to growth on account I think is an insult to me
more more than anybody else because I've been here the longest and I think that is completely unfair and unsupported. We've used engineers to document why the moratorum is appropriate. I think that
if we sit down with a jable office and a round table so that each one of us can sit and listen to them and see what D will actually do other than monet then we will be in much strong ground to
say we're moving forward. But just to throw a dot at a brick wall and watch the dot bounce off the brick wall and lift the water to my opinion is absolutely the wrong way to go. >> Well, talking to Jim about water usage.
I specifically asked about more time concerns. He's like, you know, that's just that's not my survey. My go my own goal is to be sit down with you all the DP goals to sit down and discuss water usage and those sort of things and and
your response to that your response to that and I look back at our decision of being and at the time I I I still think that was a wise met but I don't feel that I was making that decision based on all the information that that we needed.
affect the D. We were basically, you know, seeing some some numbers on our usage and trying to prevent the D from from coming at us in in any way. Um, and
that I don't think was sound logic on that. talking to them, you know, it's like trying to fix our water usage issues by shutting off any more connections to it seems to be like a really, you know, a cudgel when you need to use a scalpel for some of the
problems because I think that that logic to me you might as well just turn off all the water if you're not going to have um you know, you know, but this doesn't seem to be you know the the the least restrictive response to this. And I think as we've seen the consequences
across town and whether or not they have sewer issues or whatever town issues or growth issues, I think it's in our best interest as as a commission uh to be responsive to the town's needs uh as as
possible. And I think what I've seen about our unaccountable water numbers going down, what I've seen from um other uh things we're thinking about process we're doing in terms of meters and things. I think that our moratorum is
probably done it done its it's reaches my opinion. And I think, let me finish up because I think as we go through this and and with DC, you know, honestly, there's going to be a couple years of
concerns as we're waiting for uh a new wall to conduct. Um sitting down with the DP and I'd love to find out Kristen what she thinks about this as well. Um their decisions to sit down and come up with some solutions for us. Um, I get
the impression that that puts us on a a faster track in terms of permitting and possibly even state monies. I know Kristen, do you have any opinion on that in terms of if we're working with the D and some uh consent order stuff? Do we get preferred treatment in any way? Do
you know? Or >> uh they will and in particular the Southeast region's really good about turning around permit reviews. So, I'm sure German will do whatever he can do to help with the timeline. >> Um, in terms of the the funding, you do
get extra points if you have a consent order or an NO or anything any enforcement order in place. Um, the hard part will be this project.
It's not an MCL project. So it's not like you there's going to be a lot of water suppliers that will submit these SRF project evaluation forms for treatment of PAS. Those projects will start out with a 500
point level and then they build up from there. This project since it's to do more with infrastructure um would start out at a 400 level threshold. So, and there are last year there were a
couple projects that did still get funded that were 400 level projects. It just depends on how much competition there are with these drinking water MCL projects and then how much money is available
>> permitting probably would be sped up. >> Yes. Yep. >> Money is not not so not so >> Yep. Again, we used Kristen's expertise and her knowledge of this system and what
we're calling with a great deal of respect and work on her part to document why the moratory was in fact the best way to go at the time. We don't won't get into any other
politics in the town on when we acquire the land or flush path until the delay in doing that. Had that not happened, we're being constructed now, but that's decided that's water over the dam. It's already been removed. One of my concerns
is a couple of my concerns is one, we have litigation ongoing with town council. Christie talked to us about his most recent discussion with town council and the way that litigation is. Uh
>> we did this knowing full right well that we're going to have some ramifications but we did it so in fact we could protect every single resident against there were other ways to
sound. >> Um, but I think the sound cut off. >> Yeah, it did. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's back. Okay. >> My feeling is before we move anywhere
and I'll make a motion to suggest that we have a sit down round table with Jical Aqua so that each and every one of us can hear and we can document exactly what DHA will assist us
with and how they can assist us rather than just a motion. Do we have a second? >> Yes. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to just because Jim is, you know, from what I understand, we were on the docket last
week and that within a week we're supposed to be getting their response, which will won't be a request. It's going to tell us we're going to be sitting down with them. So, I think that's coming already. So, I don't think we need to to make a motion for that. it's going to happen, you know, because they demand it's
>> then then I suggest we put off any decision on lifting a moratorum until such time as we've had a sit down with DDP because they have the basically you know controlling factor or where we're moving and how we're moving.
>> Uh you joined in there can you hear us? >> Yes, I can. I thought you sat down with D last week, Bob. I I talked with Jim last week. U I'll fill you in real quick on from my side. Jim Goff from D said that they're going
to be sending us uh a letter uh asking us to sit down asking telling us that we're going to sit down with them to discuss water usage concerns uh as well as what we're planning on doing that with their input. Um,
and from that, what else was it there? >> Do you want to Did you hear anything else from our discussion with Bud's side? >> I heard most of what Beth Bud said, but then then he cut out and then I don't know.
>> So, his his trouble putting together what he was talking about before and then when the sound came back on. >> Yeah. His proposal is to sit back and wait until such time as a meeting with the D occurs. uh and not do anything until that point in time. Um do you have
anything you want to contribute to the conversation? >> Um personally, I think waiting three weeks or four weeks or however it'll take at least three weeks for us to act on it again puts the town in increasingly more jeopardy. And um
I'm not leaning towards postponing it. I think I really want to move on the moratorum. Any other questions or Chris, do you want to add in anything your perspective? >> I do. I I think that um the moratorum was put in place after
great research and uh guidance from Kristen and I I I find it um how hard I understand that bomb that you would have conversation with the T and not make me aware of that as that filled me in with
that. I I I I feel as though I should have been privileged to those discussions prior to this meeting. Um that is upsetting to me. >> So >> and any of these other sideby conversations that go on and as a department head I feel that if you front
speak with that stuff you keep in the dark that's offensive to me. >> Um and the risk versus benefit I don't see the risk versus benefit to lifting the moratorum this time. It was implemented after great research and due diligence
and a lot of questions and a lot of discussion involving our engineer and to step forward and remove that at this point. Even though yeah the well project is moving along making great strides the risk for us benefit should it be a real
true water emergency is going to really put us in a high position. And um I just really should be considered like I sit at night and I watch the trends the tank trends what's pumping the tanks
drop to low level warms the all the wells are running to recover it takes a good part of the day goes to recover should there be a fire emergency requires you know substantial water should there be a breaching system where there's uncontrollables of water it's
going to jeopardize a town with a huge huge burden. If you sign in the moratorum, you're going to have large scale projects going have a lot of waste that's going to be going on that we don't have right now. Fill mains, flush mains, disinfect mains, all of that. And
I watch these tank trends and it keeps you up at night. Make sure there's going to be enough water in the morning for people they can have in the high spots of town, the higher elevations of town to have water come out of their they expect. So,
Um, attorney's logged on. Attorney Permenture, could you um provide any other insight or guidance uh to the board, please? >> My name is Matt Rventure. I'm from town council me Talaman and Costa. I've been working with Chris and with Kristen on
some of the water supply and capacity issues. They specifically arose in the context of a 40B application that was subject to a decision by the zoning board of appeals. There's been some ongoing litigation about that because uh a critical issue in that case is whether
there's adequate water supply to service the project based on the analysis that Miss Burgerer has conducted and submitted to the board as well as the town at large along with Mr. Veraka's position on it. Um so I I know there was some discussion earlier about
potentially wanting to discuss things with town council. I just want to say I'm available, my office is available. I think particularly with respect to specific opinions or comments about pending litigation, exposure or liability to the town, those are
probably subjects that are more appropriate for an executive session because it's confidential advice and I I don't feel entirely comfortable giving that having that kind of discussion in an open session. Um it should be for the benefit of the board to weigh its options and the risks, the pros and cons
of proceeding with any course. If the commission has any questions in general about you know what is the nature of D enforcement can you know an oral comment from D regional director bind the department of environmental protection in general I'm happy to have that
discussion with it but I figured rather than proceeding just any general comments um I agree this is a policy matter for you all to decide what's appropriate I think you've received a lot of expert technical advice from Miss
Burgerer and from Mr. Baraka's experience and expertise with the operations of the department. Um, I don't know and I'm not aware of any reason to believe that anything changes the underlying facts supporting those analyses. Um, but if there's anything you want me to look at, you want me to
take a look at and review, we'll be happy to do so. Um, so I would just say if you have any specific questions before I try to give any general overview that might be of assistance, I'm I'm happy to field them if you have anything in particular you'd like me to address. I'm gonna go here. Bob, do you have
anything? Are you here? >> Well, um, one of the ways I would um, disagree with Chris is we have substantially more information now than we had when we put in the moratorum. And the information that we have now for me
buffers the issues that we had prior to that. Um, we're talking about a relatively short period of time and we're talking about a catastrophic event that we have never experienced in my time I've lived in Kingston and um highly highly highly
unlikely to experience again and should we have that experience supposed goes down for two or three months we would have to institute a water ban anyways and we would have to be getting in discussions with the people in the in the community about conserving water and
we would have to be putting giving people tickets when they were using outdoor water when they weren't supposed to. So those things will all would all take place if track went down. If track doesn't go down, all we're doing is giving the town of Kingston an
opportunity to perhaps improve the tax base, which right now is um if you were at the last town meeting is is an issue and it would bail in some respects the S commissions out of a out of a problem we
created by putting in the moratorum. And if we were to um eliminate the moratorum and go back to our other plans, we can always reinstitute it should situation be created that results in that being necessary. I think we're creating a
problem for the town of Kingston. We're creating a problem for our credibility because we're saying that we're not doing this to to control growth, but it's very apparent to people in town, or at least that's not what they're telling me. It is very clear to
them that that's what this is about. And there I'm sure there are some people uh applauding it, but there are also other people that aren't applauding it. And that's not our job. Our job is not to be controlling growth using water. Our job is to work with other people in the town of Kingston to provide the best
situation for the town of Kingston. So that's where I'm coming from. and the information that we got about the amount of um of drinking quality affluent that's going to be dis deposited right near um um Smelt Pond 350,000 gallons
will make up any loss of water that we we would have and that gets that gets turned on very soon. Um, I just having trouble understanding why with the new information that we got, we can't make an adjustment to our plan.
>> I'm sorry. I haven't been privileged that the new information that you have is a superintendent and I take offense to that. I don't know what this new information is. I'd like >> Well, actually, you I don't know why you're constantly picking on traffic pond is losing traffic pond. If we lose, if we lost
Grassy Hole or South Street, those would be detrimental to the supply of this town. >> I agree with you. I'm a lightning strike, a power outage, a generator failure during a power outage. So, it's there's there's a multitude of factors
that aren't being weighed in the whole picture. Um, that's and and to say that it's stopping growth, I disagree with you on that. There's construction going on. You have the Polola project that's going on on 106 that he's intending to put in private wells. You have other
private houses that are going in that put in private wells on Route 27 around Country Club Way on on Station Street. So there's not a stopping growth. There's profits are going on, >> but they're stopping. My point Chris is
there stopping growth of commercial development, which is where the tax base needs to be improved from. And that is dead in the water without without us us making making some adjustment here. >> What what's the >> and and and to answer your comments
before the information about the the uh 350,000 gallons of affluent that's going to be dis that was at our last meeting. Um it was brought up at our last meeting and it probably was brought up at the meeting that Brian attended prior to that. In fact, I remember him bringing
it up. So that's not new information. That's information together with other stuff that we've learned indicates to me that what was a dire consequence when I voted to put in the moratorum. I don't see it as a dire consequence anymore. I
see it as something to monitor. Sure. Absolutely. We're now in the middle of July and you're right, we're probably pumping uh in excess of two million gallons pretty much every day in July, but then August is going to come and then it's going to be shorter water use
and we've already started building the well. So, we're not looking at seven years down the road. looking at a couple of years down the road to in order to help the town of Kingston rebuild its its tax base in order to help the s department recover from a problem we
caused them. I think it's a small risk for a big benefit. >> All right. Well, first of all, I don't I don't feel we cause the department any problem. The student department developed their project and built their project at their peril. Um, and you talk
about the recharge from their new leech field. That is a potential recharge only when that leech field is in use. Is that correct? As opposed to the other couple leech fields that they use currently. >> But they're planning on turning this leech field on very soon.
>> Very soon. >> Interesting phrase. >> But but again, that that you can only get that benefit of that recharge when that leech field is utilized. And as Mr. Dono stated you rotate through different leech fields. The one under the transfer station, the one on the golf course, the
the new field, and they do another field. So, there's not going to be a full-time recharge out of that site. I think we've heard a lot from our opinions here from commissioners as well as superintendent. Is there anyone else online, our eighth here, who wants to
contribute to the conversation at all before we kind of move on with new information? >> I don't I don't mean to interrupt. There were just a couple of questions posed and I know that Chris and Bob had to have a conversation, but I just wanted to address those as I understood them. Um, if that's all right with the board.
>> Sure. Sure. >> Um, so one of the one of the things that we noted is that there's no current issue with moving forward on, you know, restarting water service connection permits. One thing that we've taken the position on and and it's my legal
opinion that based on the information and analysis that Miss Burgerer conducted that the town is actually not in a position to be compliant with state regulations on the guidelines for public water systems. Now I know that the cha the title of the document is called
guidelines. They are enforcable against the town through chapter 111 which is the public health statute. and then they're also enforceable under um the code of Massachusetts regulations as promulgated by the state D. Now, it's an
enforcement decision for the D and it's therefore discretionary, but the the issue is so straightforward and the amount of unaccounted for water and other recoverable sources to be added to
the total is not sufficient as a matter of pure math to bridge the gap between what the town's required maximum daily demand metric is and how much it's pumping can satisfy with the largest well source. offline. So that's just
something that was addressed in testimony in the 40B proceeding. Miss Burgerer testified upon it extensively. There was a developer who had a water engineer expert and by and large that expert agreed with her analysis that municipalities are required to comply
with the guidelines. They're not optional. and that the amount of unaccounted for water and other recoverable amounts, whether that's through metering upgrades or anything like that, is not going to be sufficient to bridge the gap between what the town needs and what it's capable of producing
with its largest well source offline. And I can tell you that because that's something we've said in public and in filings. That's a matter of public record. So, I just want you to be aware of that because I think that's information I can provide um separately as to what the D may do. That's their
decision. But until such time as you get a really binding commitment in writing from an official who's high enough up in the D hierarchy to bind the agency, I would not advise you that you can rely on any conversation or discussion you have about enforcement. Of course, it's
relevant. I'm not suggesting that they're misleading you or trying to do anything. I'm just telling you that as a matter of law, you're not entitled to rely on that kind of discussion. It's not going to be legally binding. They can change their mind and they can do or make any decision that they feel they
need to until such time as they formally commit to not doing so. So, I just wanted to make sure you had that. If there are any further questions based on that, my understanding is other than that discussion, there are no further questions that you wanted addressed. But if there's anything I missed or I didn't
capture something, please feel free to let me know. >> I got no questions. document uh how they plan to move forward as far as D in the southeast region.
Yeah. And you know these these town council speaking basically to us making a recommen recommendation to us that we not do anything based on strictly on trickling uh discussion and we know that
anyways and we've always reacted that way. not always don't want as quickly as people want, but we do it because we want to make sure that we have the documentation that is forthright and we can move forward.
>> And I hear that and the chance that if if if we move into moratorium before meeting with the DP and all of a sudden sit down with them and they're like, why did you take that moratorium up? I I doubt if that conversation is going to happen that way, but and it would be horrible governance to flip-flop on
that. But if that's something that they say is a reasonable, you know, way to address our water usage issues, I would revisit that. I've heard everything to the contrary and that the moratorium is not a preferred method of
of dealing with these. It's it's a last ditch sort of thing. There's a lot of stuff to be done ahead of time. I think we are doing as well. I think from what I've seen in her over the past couple months, I think we, you know, we we have
a manageable amount of risk to the to the water supplies in in Kingston. uh if we remove the local moratorum uh we don't we have a much more uh damning I think concern for the the
long-term you know help of the town that's that's kind of where my cous is going I would not do this remove moratorum without that other sort of concern hanging over um because I think
>> and I I do have a question for uh town council. Now that you mentioned it, can I ask him a question? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Um, what other cities or towns have gone through the same issue that we have where they've put in a moratorum and how
has that impacted those towns? >> I haven't specifically looked into it because my exposure has generally been in the context of the 40B proceeding and that's that's limited to the facts of what has happened. You generally can't bring in examples of what happened
elsewhere. um from the examinations that I conducted in that case specifically cross-examining uh the developer is water engineer expert he said that he had heard of it happening only a couple of times across a career that's about 30 years and my
understanding from I mean I didn't get too much into it because I thought it was a very limited relevance to a case about this particular project in the town of Kingston um my understanding is that it was a similar situation here where the municipality experienced a
rapid or unanticipated rise in the demand upon its system and needed time to either develop a new source or to pursue some other avenue to get more water. But that it was similar in the nature that there was not enough water capacity and the town's need was to put
the brakes on everything while it developed another. I don't have a ton more detail than that. Um, I can tell you that in, you know, at least in the 40B context, there's a requirement of state law that you treat ordinary unsubsidized housing the same as
subsidized housing. So, this is not a situation where the the commission can make a distinction between different kinds of uses on that front. I just I wanted to be clear on that. You've got to treat everybody the same. And so to the extent that a halt on water service
connections is a kind of it is a binary switch. It's either everybody is treated the same way in one direction or everybody is treated the same way in the other direction. You're not the town is not and this is not necessarily going to be things that are before you, but the town as a whole is going to have limited
latitude in certain areas. If you know the if the decision is everybody can apply and we'll start issue permits again that is going to apply across the board more often than it is not. It's going to be harder to vet any individual particular one and make a decision on
that time. So that was the information that we developed in the course of that proceeding as it relates to how other communities have had to address the questions of moratoria. Um, I think that if you wanted to review anything, there's a section in Miss Burgerer's
report um that addresses exactly how much the projected demand it was exceeded by the actual demand. And I think that's probably at least for what you're asking me, I think that's relevant in that generally municipal
water planning follows those projections and the population dynamics and growth over the last 5 years have been very different from what was anticipated at the time that study was completed in I believe 2016. Bob, did you have any other questions or
are you all set? No, no, that was my question because um I would I have not heard of one where somebody where a a town put in a moratorum and I was wondering of the ones that did how how how long did it take them to to remove
them and how was how did that impact the tax base and how did that impact citizens in town? I I I agree 100% with Bud that this is really about rateayers and providing portable water for the people in town of
Kingston. Where we disagree is where the risk is. I think the risk is small enough that it's worth cooperating with the town of Kingston that that kind of needs the new commercial tax base. And um I think the
risk that we're running is very very small, especially for a short period of time. This is not a seven-year before the next wall goes on. It's going to be going online within two or three years. >> Yeah, it's interesting. We talk about
this commercial tax base that we're holding up. To my knowledge of the properties that now align with any place where uh we have a sewer line and a water line, there is one potential major
development that would fit into that and that would be the old veneer project. Everything else in town already has both sewer and water connections. uh the mall when they built the uh apartments, they
did away with um their uh treatment facility and actually have tied into the uh town so commission saw lines at the present time. There is the potential that uh town and country estates because
they have problems with their own sewer connection uh sewer department may in fact tie in. But when the lines were run down summer street to pretty much the Dutch line, that was done with an anticipation that at some point in the
future with very little effort on part of uh town country or the sewer commission that could be hooked up that has nothing to do with any moratorum that we have in place today because they are all on on town water. You know, the
fact that the Baneer property had one service probably an inch to an inch and a half capacity. They want to build what we need is another car wash on Main Street uh as a potential commercial development. Nobody else has come
forward with anything that I'm aware of or our superintendent is aware of that are of any commercial development that we're holding hostage. So, uh, this >> how about redevelopment of the mall? >> That we've got to protect, uh, the sewer
commission's overextension of their financial situation and subject the residents of the town of King to any potential liability is absolutely false. We used Kristen's expertise to deal with
the water department and our needs and our concerns. Not to ask, you know, CDM cost doesn't matter. Uh known in Boston at least, uh that uh they need to review our engineering from a sewer department
standpoint, not the water department standpoint. And it's about time we really said, you know, why are we doing this? to bail out the sewer commission or we trying to do what is best for every resident down at Dston
>> and with that I'm you know where I'm going with that >> well meeting I want in writing from DP before we move forward >> let's handle this administrative thing is Bud put a motion for to to delaying
any sort of action on moratorium issues until advocacy of the D he's looking for a second. Would you be willing to second that, Bob? >> At the moment, no. I want to continue the discussion here because Bud didn't mention anything about the redevelopment of the mall, which is a significant
commercial development that the that needs water that we can't provide at the at the time that >> and that's a big deal. >> Okay. So, I just want to make sure that administrative thing was done. So, you want to talk about them all, Bob? Go ahead.
Um it there is redevelopment of the mall that's going to have to be necessary if that mall is going to survive. And the redevelopment will take on many things. All of them are going to require more water that we can't now provide because it will be
there will be major hookups. There will be bigger diameter pipes that we'll be putting in. So, um, to say that the only commercial development in town is a car wash is not being fair because I'm not
even concerned about the car wash on 3A. I'm way more concerned about redeveloping the mall and keeping the mall as a taxpaying um, member of the town of Kingston. >> Anyone else to contribute? Maybe is there a commercial development
projects that are proposed that we're not aware of that you could be shedding light on that help us out with this situation? So I think there's a lot of commercial activity that's being considered but again we get by we get by last week whether something they find out for the water
stance they they have to walk away. So you know a lot of the work that gets done commercial the commercial point of view analysis is done before anybody thinks even aware again everybody's aware of what the
challenges are water situation >> could Bud give us his uh motion again because I want to hear the details on it >> Bud's motion was to delay any action on the moratorum until after such time as
we have a chance to sit down with the D. >> Do we have a do we have an appointment with D? >> Not at the moment yet, but they're going to be it's my understanding that they are going to be if not already sending us a letter to to uh demand that meeting. Uh it'll be here within two two
to three weeks. >> But that meeting is not specifically about um whether or not we have the moratorium should continue or not. It's about other things. Right. it it's my understanding from the conversation that it's about their concerns about
Kingston's water usage and that sit down to discuss the solutions that we can come up with to address their concerns. >> So, it's entirely possible at the end of that meeting the moratorium won't even get brought up. >> That's not true. We don't know.
>> I'm sorry. Keith is speaking. Um there I just I just you can call up to the table and speak here. Oh please. >> Yes I >> Yes. And that's there your answer. Yes. No, if if there's commercial
development. >> Yes, I work developers looking you know I think maybe just if their calls are directed to the water park they want water be concerns but it's a commercial property that they're looking to redevelop there may be sil water
that's there to meet their demand um but without having a conversation with the supplier the water department you know there may be a means needed there for them. So at this point there's been no conversations that I'm aware of uh redevelopment other than what redevelop
car wash redevelopment. Okay. Um, beyond that, it's been a lot of um, new development that would come into town and yeah, I know we discussed it. Nothing's really um, public yet, but obviously the
redevelopment mall, we have a major player that's looking to need a significant amount of water. Um my understanding is uh that all of the water that's been allocated to the mall
site is how could being um used I not sure I I didn't know we allocated x amount of gallons to the mall David a pipe was straight inside it
turns them all >> sure that that convers My understand what I was told in my brief discussions recently earlier this week is they have to run a brand new bike to get the pipe just now uh would not provide the additional water that's needed to this
site >> happy yeah I' I'd be happy to get you involved the discussions and involve our engineer have it see you know hydraulically what what works and what is doesn't work is the is the existing pipe in the ground that before max
And that provide a significant amount of additional youth 12 in pipe that's two are going with 16 in. So again my question is if you pipe in the ground can that provide a submit amount additional water or provides val
I don't know what the demand would be and that's and the is the pike on the ground today back up >> no or close to max can they provide additional a significant service to they need a significant increase in the pipe
size for large I'd have to know I don't which occupancy I don't know I can't commercial based basically site so they need a significant amount of water to reevelop that site is there is there capacity in the existing line
to redevelop that site without what they name to be there's capacity is in that pipe mill that pike notion gallons like a 500,000 >> I can't tell you but the actual view I get a You need to be sensitive.
>> Christian, are you still on? >> I I have I'm having these conversations. >> Yeah. >> We're a million from a thousand foot, right? Yeah. I >> but all to understand >> reach out and I and maybe I should have reached out uh to to try to get a sense
what I'm being told by by the developers u through staff is that the pipe size that they need the additional uh several inch pipe >> the qu what's >> the bigger question is >> if they need a million gallons a day or
a million gallons can the existing system if we pull the plug on more journey and they put that pipe for that development in the ground tomorrow. Could we substanti provide that amount of water without
>> impacting the residents down until they talk to that man and that woman our engine I don't care about CDM >> and I don't care what goes down the hill >> we can't be aware of that but you know
unless we know what we're talking about we can't give you >> we and give them the appropriate answer. We need that information to go to the superintendent and to our engineers so that we can make an evaluation. Until we
do that, to pull the plug is the wrong way to go in my opinion. >> But the the issue is here is that we we're not going to get that information. You don't get that information. So these companies that come in here are going to say, you know, what are our options? Oh, there's a moratorum. Let's not even
bother. So the conversation ends there. we don't have any more information about what usage they need of that sort of stuff. So I I think for that reason alone for the ability to plan for the future for things two to three years out when we will have a new well online
everything works out as well. Um that is what I think removing the moratorum gives us and we have a lot of other tools at our disposal in the meantime to meet the needs we have uh you know barring the catastrophe that that
unlikely event which we need to plan for um it's in the best interest I believe for the town and the water department to to remove that so that we can move forward and not just stagnate and lose a lot of opportunity. ities that could come down
the the wax. So that that's where I'm coming from this. >> So it's you know back back to your questions about that site. >> You know if the ability for a large sprinkle line because of at space or storage I I don't know there's probably
a sing about an 8 inch probably 8 in sprinkle wire runs that with a 2in mass block which is a Ywing Ywalk. No, I don't know any more facts that makes the best line. So >> yeah, I can't speak in specifics because
they get all I've been ask is uh walk past and I have to know this is a little bit off topic all the same. So we we've been uh I know one of the things that cross nights that the apartments at the at the
at the mall didn't utilizing significant more water than what was suggested water commission broke ground. I don't know. I mean, to me, I'm not I'm not I'm not smart enough to understand how water works, right? I would think about if
there's a million gallon somehow we'd see it. But maybe I don't know. Uh does it make any sense for a lot of a lot of commissions and work with the owners of the mall of the compost mall to find
where that water is going. I mean, it's well over a million dollars. I'm sorry, a million gallons per quarter. More than last. >> Yeah, that was there's seven million. Those are the numbers I pulled up with Stacy last week when we came out. They had seven million per quarter about seven reads ago and now they're up to 17
million a quarter. Now, some of that has some of that surveying has to do with the percentage of of uh occupancy they have there. You know, they moves you with different models, so to speak, try to put uh tenants in their buildings. on
but it just feels like 717 is a awfully good governing like I said is are there are there techniques you can be used to try to identify a leak someplace underneath the build or someplace the water
infrastructure of those those parts and maybe we can orbit them and say you have a final leak it's your it's your responsibility to fix and the week we'll pay we'll pay for you know the the testing of conceiving any leaks out there That's a how the water we can get short
attention. So I again I know that's off topic but I just only fill that out a little bit of the history on the later the pipes they have the u a 4 inch line that comes in for the domestic splits off into two meters. So one meter after
service they can shut down isolate use the span meter from that it goes into a 2 inch line that goes throughout their build. So anything post meter is all above grade in their build. So any leaks in there would be identified through water showing steady owners or the
projection that they made were based on this per curts. So they say you know you're going to use 60 gallons per day. This is a two bedrooms. This this one here use 120 gallon per that's where conservative happens. When you have someone that
comes in and does dishes and needs the water off the whole time and they go and use the bathroom, leave the water arm while they do dishes and they take want bathroom and leave the hot water line and steal the place up. Those are abol because if there's leaks underground
there are there is no underground it's all service once it comes out goes to that meter it's all air it's all in the walls and the ceilings get it right. So it's all going down the drain. So you can take a look at that and what the wastewater product takes in for intake.
They can look at their list station that's right there and that's going to give you gallons out or gallons that we're pumping going to the meter and the gallons that are coming their list station. The gallons they pump to their facility. So you can maybe look at like 3 in the morning and see what's happening with that. That's most likely
middle week is going to be noticed if things are still wet or not. It's been facing a lot water toilets, a lot of sinks, a lot of showers. >> They get it right. I mean again I think my impression is that the water blocked the connection but based on assumption
some realities significantly different can work with the the owner of that property to try to isolate where that stuff where that usage is so they can try to reduce it
you know the amount of parts they need to use it there It's 10 million gallon, but we got some somebody else. >> It's a file hunt on the drag. It's the waste going on. But hopefully the it's going to come in. >> Yeah, that's hand paying the bill. I get
basically the water being everybody's personal habit. So >> I mean to look to the other end of that facility to say what the demand is. You could have a a grocery store that's going to say, "Hey, we need 500 to 1,000
gallons a day for wash down prep and everything else. You're going to get that more than the submission of the two inch line." Um, you know, but to see you put in apartments, you know, that's going to be a tough it all comes out individual habits. So
the the guy watching this guy, he throws a hose running on the ground. Well, he pitches soaking his counter up, you know, in three to five gallons minute going out of the hose. >> I guess I just wonder I just I'm just trying to explain
it to you, but it's just trying to see this commercial development coming in. I'd be happy to meet even if it's you know know um what do we want to say executive meeting so be it you know just to get you know hey looking to do this or that you know
you could repurpose this service or whatever >> you know not to disturb anything but you know open discussion but nothing comes to nothing the phone doesn't ring I don't get the email so if I don't ask the question I can't >> do my best to answer reach out to our engineer to see the best possible answer
>> to attract that just to say there's a moratorum we don't have the water and they're like let's go ahead the flag up and walk away it's no I'd be happy to be able discussion
you share so I can a lot of conversations with about what you know what's available you know a lot else here but right now there's a lot whereabout
they should come right to the source of the water they can ask those questions >> through you so that you know >> you the discussion you and Chris and whoever so that closed >> the purpose of moratorum is no way to
discourage growth or expansion or anything like that it's to control the consumption the usage >> with with our outage Again, I'm I'm just out lot the I think the water commission's doing a great job at trying to maintain the ability to provide water to it
currently current. I think there's a discrepancy that's accepted is that there's water that's in there excess that can be used when provided over what we're doing now based on uh a disagreement between two engineers. It would be nice to have
uh the EP be able to look at the analysis that was done and say that one of the two applied them more accuratism than other uh without them thinking taking a side or or stating where they should give more target and um frankly
in my has something to do that has something to do that with you know other projects in town that aren't water related um But in the one more torrent is
27 really but has a lot to do about the lack there. So if there is available water that can be sold uh or where used to work at BP to
well address the need that we have today using the third destruction place. I I implore you to research that and >> that's that's all I'm ask is don't change what we're doing for a chance to
research that with D. Jim McGofflin's been around for a long time with double number four. He's forthright will tell us that where D is so that whatever we do, we're moving forward with as much
knowledge as we can possibly get out of D. And yeah, without something they're writing, I'm extremely hesitant honestly. >> Yeah. And it is there's no property that has a lot of amount of water. That was
the case. The wall they made the van would be 300,000 gallons a quarter and they go over that and you shut them off. That's it. We'll figure out the next two months of your your quarter. Oh, I understand that they the water and they flow through the meter. They
have paper what they use. There's no specified amount per unit per size pipe or that sort. What are the prospects that D will give us an answer about their opinion about the moratorum? My sense is that if it's
inter agency squabbling, they stay out of it. The impression I I've got is they don't want to take a they don't want to make a policy decision which look it's having a morator say you should you should you know which is why I've asked
um or made the comments too um that they should look at the the the analysis that been done in the term of the analysis that applied properly based find you know best practice and
then that will tell you whether you have no water no color in the south or more additional water >> so don't you have conversation with the D >> I had conversation you've got >> okay you said you would just the way you speak I just thought you had maybe a
conversation with >> no and I think that that when we sit down with the D we're going to go through all these all their concerns look at how we going to address those concerns at the bottom of all those those those solutions uh would be a more
torrent at the end. I think those things in between are what we need to focus on and that's I think allows us as a town to be able to plan for the future. um also deal with the water usage concerns they have. And so I think the the
moratorium has served it purpose for the past couple years. Right now it's more hindrance that is helpful in that as we remove that and then allow the town to to be able to plan uh we can then address these other concerns as they
come up with with that moratorum still on the bottom of the list as the you know ultimate measure if we can't get the numbers in line and so I see that as being you know still on the table but you know not the preferred option.
Sorry, that's what the question is. It's not fair. Chris, >> yes. Preston, I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the um the report that CDM provided. I assume to the water commission upon request,
but it it seems as I'm not the one who knows. It's either you that had a >> I got I got it today. >> Bob, >> I got I got it today. So, I don't know why you got it. Yeah, if you didn't get it if you got it after about 1:00, you're right. I had it before. >> No.
>> So, >> did we get a news report from CDN today? >> I guess I I I called uh Ryan Doto today asked if you have cop brought to me oneish and that's what I got. So, my
question I guess to Kristen is did you read the letter that CDM put together and are there aspects of that letter that you just disagree with? um with regards to their their analysis
that shows that there are there is water available to sell even if uh one of the you know one of the wells goes goes down for some period of time >> when I reviewed what they did that's not what I read
>> Preston I'm sorry um >> attorney prevention would I just don't want to interfere with any the ongoing litig ation. Would it be appropriate for Kristen to answer that question um with the ongoing litigation? >> I mean, I think to the extent that this
is a public document and she's reviewed it and you know, I'm not aware of it being utilized in litigation and my understanding from what she started to say is that I think she's going to indicate something to the effect that her analysis leads her to a different place. So, I I don't as long as my
understanding is that she's not changing any of the conclusions that she's previously advanced. So I don't think it makes a difference from my perspective. >> Sorry to interrupt. I just want to make sure we get to legal. Thank you.
>> Yeah. So in that um memorandum or letter report that CDM put together um they had similar findings. The only thing that they were pushing was to pump the grassy hole and the 186 well concurrently.
Right now, the Mass D issued a permit that prohibits pumping of those two wells concurrently, and that's what we based the analysis of. Um, when we talked about this a few years ago,
uh, the board decided they did not want to pursue pumping in those two wells concurrently because of the potential environmental impacts. So if you remember from that water management act permit for D to even consider allowing
pumping those two wells together, they were requiring environmental monitoring as a a baseline minimum of one year and that's pumping the wells separately, not at the same time because they want to get baseline conditions.
Um the hope would be that that baseline would occur occur during like a normal year. Um because if it was exceptionally wet or dry that would skew the data. Um once that baseline data is reliable then
you move towards continuing to monitor environmental conditions during concurrent pumping of the wells. um similar thing where you need at least one year's worth of data for D to even consider
removing that requirement in the permit or that restriction I should say in the permit. And again, if the year is exceptionally wet or dry, there might be the need to continue that monitoring longer before D would be
willing to make a decision either way. Um, the one thing that CDM was saying was, "Well, D will let you pump the two wells together in an emergency." Um, and that was something that we don't
have anything in writing from D about that. And that's what we talked about, you know, at the prior meetings that D would need to um provide guidance on doing that and what the potential
regulatory repercussions would be. >> That's a question. Does anyone have any new information or questions that we want to address in spirit of moving this on? So with that, not hearing anything else
here. Um, anyone have anything else they want to move or put forward before we adjourn? I'd be willing to I'd be willing to support Bud's um motion provided we had
an uh say at our next meeting we will make a decision. We got three weeks. If we don't meet with D between and now and three weeks they don't want to meet with us. If we meet with them between now and our next meeting we should have some very solid informations to make a vote
on. So, I'm okay if we defer uh decision about this until our next meeting. >> Is that acceptable? That's acceptable to me at this point. And hopefully we can reach out and try to convince Jima that he needs to come
to. No, we can go the middle bar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The motion on the table is to delay any decision on any D or any moratorum. uh >> until next meeting
>> and we have a second. So all in favor >> I >> I >> I'll say I as well. So it carries. Um we'll see. I mean whether or not we we have to take a vote the next meeting. I think it's up. We'll put it on the agenda. Bud, uh and then we'll deal with
with the facts as they stand. Um >> yeah, put it on the agenda. I'd like I'd like that to be the first item on the agenda. >> Okay. or we'll we'll defer to Stacy in terms of agenda writing. I think would be our
smartest play. But um the one last thing I wanted to address you though is obviously with the conversation here and the device music I do think we need to pursue with town a conference speaker phone.
>> It did. Oh, there we go. Good. Uh, we'll see how that works because it was it's definitely a little bit difficult with uh >> facts. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, at least you don't have to look at Bob's ear the entire time. Listen. >> All right. Motion to adjourn.
>> Okay. We have a second. Bob, second to adjurnn. He did. >> He's not. >> He's still there, but he just >> Second to adjurnn. All right. So, so
Gary. All right. Good conversation, guys. And and you know, I apologize for not communicating better as well as I'm not new at this as well. Um I don't even know half the hearing. Uh so it's it's