Okay. So, all I need to do there's no bills to review. >> It says that we have bills from the 13th and the second. >> Yeah. >> You'd like to take a look at what was >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. Perfect. Yeah. >> And um >> we do have the minutes from the last meeting. >> Now there were three in attendance and uh Cheryl has uh gone over them and
reviewed the tape. So if somebody would like to make a motion on the minutes accept the minutes of November 17th as presented. >> Second. >> Make that. >> Any discussion? Corrections, revisions,
anything at all? No. All in favor? >> I >> stellar job as always, Lori. Thank you. >> Okay, Joyce. >> So, um, first, uh, thing for my report is I just want to make sure everybody
knew that Donna Farington, who apparently sat on our board of health, has passed away. Um, we just somebody sent us to us today to let us know. So, I figured I'd just make everybody aware in case you worked with them in the past.
>> Um, not a ton to report. Subjective, they're still we have them, but they're slowing down. Um, obviously given the weather. Uh, inspections for food establishments continue. We are losing our grant
inspector as of the end of this week. Um but we have posted for the job has been posted on the grant and uh website as well as on this HR website. Um we have a contingency plan in place um till we can
hire another inspector. So there shouldn't be there should be minimal interruption. Um I don't see it posing a big issue. Um, we really haven't had any housing inspections or or any major complaints.
Um, so so far so good. And that's trying to think if there's anything I left off. It's really it's been a quiet, you know, permitting. It's permitting season. We have a what do we figure about 25?
Yeah. try very people that just have not bothered to renew their permits. Um we have sent just so everybody's clear on how we operate. We send out a email in October saying hey permit C2 due um December 15th is December 1st is the
deadline the late fee after it. We send out another same email in November. Um then we get after December 1st we waited until I think the 15th right >> in November. No, no. In December after
December 1st deadline, we waited. Um, >> no. >> Yeah, we we sent we keep sending emails saying, "Hey, you haven't given us our stuff." Um, >> we sent another one today saying if you
don't have it, it could result in a cease and desist in your inability to operate because you're operating without permits. So, hopefully that will spur people to get motivated. But this year has gone, I would say, smoother than the last two years. We're we're getting
people on board to get um stuff in on a timely manner, using checklist. We we still have people that just don't read >> um and don't turn in stuff. So, we've made it very clear if it's not turned in complete, it's a late fee. Um it's not
on us to tell. We give you a checklist that tells you exactly what we need. >> So, it has been moderately successful. We're making improvements. So, hopefully maybe this time next year we'll have online permitting, but if not, we will
continue to do this. So, it seems to be at least working. >> Okay. >> So, that's where we're at with permitting. So, other than that, it's been pretty quiet. Yes. >> What's required to get online permitting established? >> Money.
How much? Oh, you're talking like they got some money to get the basic system up and I think it's somewhere in the tune of I believe it was between 50 and $80,000 and that's not covering the whole entire townhouse that was for
building and we're part of it and just us I think it's just our two departments but it's in a stall pattern right now because the finance department hasn't been able to figure out how to link payments or something. If it's not in my
wheelhouse, I stay out of it. >> Yeah. I just I provide what's and now with the switch in town administrators, it's kind of on hold for the time and we don't have a building commissioner. So, it's kind of on hold right now, but it seemed to me
>> it seemed to me there has to be turnkey systems. We're not the only municipality in the univer. >> We are looking the system that they've employed is open.go. go. >> Um, but you have to understand that with that you pay a fee not only to get
the system, but then it's you got to pay for uploading this template and that template and in adjusting things and so a lot of that's done been done in house. >> Um, Val, I understand was um given a
stipen to act as a liaison when the previous building commissioner left. um and a lot of the work hadn't been completed. So, Val stepped up and she has done a fair amount, but again, we're in a kind of a hold pattern until the new person gets in in the building
department. And so, I'm just >> Did they hire somebody new? >> No, not yet. That's what I um we had somebody all lined up, but apparently um the wage and personnel's
budget did not align with what the person was asking and there were some issues. So, I I I'm on the committee. I I I've attended all the um interviews. I I do think that the person that we chose was by far the best candidate
that's come across the desk is good experience. Um, so I don't know where that's at at this point. It's sort of they've opened it back up, but we're getting applicants that are not qualified. And it said right in the job description what is required and we're
still getting people that don't aren't meeting the basic criteria supervisory experience certification kind of thing. So >> um I I know they're having a wage and personnel meeting tonight. So, and it's
tough for health because we work quite closely, especially when it comes to doing septics and ADUs. We work closely with the building department. The interim inspector that they have now is doing a, you know, great job when he's here, but he's only here 12 hours a
week, I think it is. It's it's not much. It's three days, I think. Three days a week, four hours a shift. So, it's not a ton of time. We're just trying to make do with what we have. So, it's been a little
challenging. >> Okay. So, online permitted permitting is coming, but we're waiting for some other things to fall into place. >> Yes. But and and it wouldn't start even if we get it up and running really it would for the most part wouldn't come
into effect until next year's peritting season, >> right? Spring maybe. >> No, because most people are already permitted already. But no, when's the townhouse? >> Oh, that I'd love to give you an answer. I do not I don't even want to venture a guess. I don't know. >> Okay,
>> that's the most I don't know. >> Okay, >> but it's partially already there. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay, >> that's it. That's what I got. >> Any other questions on the health agents report?
>> Okay. >> Hearing none, um discussions. Now Dennis, you brought up uh at the last meeting. >> Yes, this is this relative to uh uh the issue of
basically not complying with our instructions. And if the fine is not paid, permits cannot be renewed until fine is paid. Dennis suggested they um should we should consider posting notices of violations at the entrance to the
establishment. it just it's just a factual disclosure. No editorial comment or anything. And the point being that um that might be a deterrent or might be
an encouragement to uh comply and if they choose not to they choose not to. But I think what may have an impact on the bottom line. I might be reluctant to enter a restaurant or something like that. as a public health notices in non-compliance
with some of our regulations and that's that's doing nothing uh outrageous. Um they're free to go about do what they do. We we've exercised our authority and as I've said before
um the best regulation is the least regulation and education is our strongest weapon and this is educating the public as to the status of this establishment. So, if if it's appropriate, I'd like to make a motion that we uh move forward
with signage. >> Give me an example. What would trigger this sign being put up? >> Uh where we have an establishment not in compliance with our regulations. you know, if they've uh they failed to uh
>> tell me. >> Okay. If they failed, for example, pay fees. If they fail to uh follow up on an inspection report that we have, you know, notice deficiencies and ask for the correction >> and they stubbornly refuse. Okay.
There's a limit to what we can do. What we can do is inform the public of the situation. So an example would an example be if they were in violation a health code violation that their freezers were not >> properly inspected
>> properly inspected or maintained or you know like we've had problems before would that be the signage you would be looking >> I think if we have continuous it's not it's not the first >> right >> card we play but okay we've tried
everything else we've tried encouragement we you know we've sent letters We send notices and the non-compliance continues. Okay, if that's the way you're going to be, this is the way we're going to be. We'll simply make your lack of compliance transparent.
You do with that as you wish. >> So, do I understand that you're you're not saying like on the first violation, you're talking about somebody that we had a violation, we went back for a reinspection, they didn't do it, we went back for a second reinspection, so that would be their third inspection and they haven't done it. That's when you would
want it posted. I I'll say the um after at least two opportunities to correct and they fail. Okay, there's there's a there's an indicator. You know, we can understand, we can see which way the winds blowing. The these people don't
intend to ever comply. They've had plenty of opportunity. They haven't asked for an extension. They haven't said, "We're having problems with this. You know, give us some extra time." No, we're just not going to do it. Okay? You're not going to do it. this is what we're going to do
and at some point you can figure out >> I don't know that we've ever run into a situation like that. Somebody said I'm not doing that. >> That they just don't do anything like so we have people that are on their third and fourth reinfections for the same thing that has not they have not
corrected the issue. Mhm. >> They are not frequent but it's >> tend to be the same people we have continued issues with. >> So can I ask question? So the reason we
have any of these regulations is to protect the public health. >> Correct. And I mean we have we have thought of it from the business owners point of view that it would harm their business. But thinking of it from the public's point of view if if the board of health recognizes that there is a risk otherwise we wouldn't have a
regulation addressing it right so there's a risk to public health and we have that information to not disclose it seems to be to be not really transparent and not in the best interest of the consumer I mean help me understand why >> and I think you you hit the nail on the head because
>> it's not necessarily I mean not to interrupt you but not necessarily to punish the business >> it's not punitive It's it's in the in the public interest. Our first priority in my okay my understanding >> is our first priority is to the health and welfare of Kingston
>> right >> our second priority is to try to do it in such a way that is that businesses can thrive and survive >> and correcting deficiencies is is not an unreasonable >> uh oice on somebody who runs a business
that intersects with public health and you we're not shutting them down. I don't think we quite have that authority at this point, but I'm saying that okay, if you choose to do this, it's our responsibility to inform the public of your choice.
>> And would that notice say what the particular violation was? for instance, if they weren't wearing a hair cap or something as opposed to um you know, animal droppings in the kitchen like that would be >> I I would I would I would try to give I would put some information down there uh
as to what the nature of the violation is and you know not elaborate on it just you know they're not in compliance with following >> X Y and Z of our you know our code. You know it it happens to be a violation
that is apparently not sufficient for us to close them but it is suff it is rises to the level of the public should be notified. And my my hunch is that what will
probably happen is after answering questions from consumers entering the establishment, they're going to decide that it's probably more beneficial to them to come into compliance than not because uh they'll be mandated to post
that notice and they cannot remove that notice until the violation is corrected. Otherwise, they will be shut down. That's the way I That's the way I was frame it. >> You're free to do whatever you want to. You're not free to remove that notice
until you come into compliance. >> Can I add something else? Are we aware of other communities using that process? >> No. And I I wonder >> I think it's I think it's a worthy process. I don't know if anybody else agrees with that. Well, I mean say that
um there are cities and towns that in that use a grading system. >> Oh, >> um that when you're inspected, if you know, say 100 to 85, it's an A rating. If it's 84 to >> you know, I I don't just pulling the
numbers up. Could be 100 to 90, 90 to 80, 80 to 70. Anything below 70, we got problems. Um, and it's like an A, B, and C rating to say A is like these guys are squirted away. >> B is they're okay, but you know, they got some work to do. C is you need at
your own caution. I don't have enough evidence to, by the way, if if there's pest droppings in a kitchen, it's a mandatory. You You can't operate. You have to get a pest control operator in there and clean it up. Like, >> that's a 24-hour notice thing. That's
>> right. >> Yeah. That's not even a negotiable, >> right? But when you're talking about things like temperature violations, food contact services not being clean, which could really potentially seriously make somebody sick, or not having properly
trained staff, like not a certified food protection manager on site, those are issues because if you don't have somebody that knows what they're doing, >> that's when things go wrong or people get sick because people, if you don't know that you don't know, that's when you make bad mistakes and people get
sick from it, right? So, those if you're going to do something like this, I think you need to be very uh specific about what kinds of like somebody didn't hang the mop up in in a mop sink. That is a technically it's a
violation. I don't know that I I want to post uh that these people are not That's why I kind of like the rating system, the ABC, because you can make mistakes and still be in the a range. It's when you're making a lot of the same things
over and over, failing to fix equipment. That's a jeopardy issue because if you have gaskets that aren't sealing right and your food temperatures don't hold, you can make somebody sick. You have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing, they're not cooking the food correctly, that could make somebody sick. So, those are the kinds of things
you want to really, I would think, bring to the public's attention just because they didn't, you know, hang a mop up in a mop sink or they I'm trying to think of another good one. Um, you know, didn't sweep all the way under a
stove, which would get cited for because it's still referenced on the floor. doesn't rise to the same level as not properly trained trained staff or temperature violations or cooking violations.
>> Well, what what um what bothers me or what alarms me or concerns me the most is a consistent and deliberate refusal to comply. That really
puts in my mind a question of their judgment and their um how well are they doing everything else. I mean, it's a it's kind of like, you know, you hear the cops talk about the broken window. Uh, you know, when you see a smashed
window somewhere, that's that's building didn't burn down, but it's a sign of vandalism, a sign of disregard, and if it's not if it's not addressed, it it'll increase. >> Can I make another suggestion as an alternative solution? Um
perhaps taking a different approach might be more beneficial and get the same result without the public display is to have the board can always enact it. If you've had three or
more inspections and you failed to correct that, then you have to come in from the board and have a hearing and explain why you haven't corrected it. We we've already had their non-compliance with hearings. They have >> No, but you don't get you don't have So what happens? You get I inspect you,
right? And you have four things wrong. Doesn't matter what they are. They come back in 14 days. I reinspect you and you haven't fixed any of the four. I say, "All right, here's your $75 fee. I'll be back." I go back a second for a second
reinspection. And now it's my third time there. You still haven't done anything. You get another $75 fee. Well, at that point, the board could say, "No, anybody after that time, you're going to get called in for a hearing and then you guys can have a conversation with the
business owner." That's another option. or do we take it the different direction with the grading system, therefore rewarding those who play fairly >> in those who follow the regulations and
those who are being safe with that A rating >> and therefore >> being more of a a reward system based on them being >> kind of compant
for the safety of the community. >> Yeah. I mean that that that would accomplish the same thing and it might in fact be slightly more diplomatic. I think it would be I think you would see more of you know it's more of a reward system >> over a punitive system you know and it
might get us better compliance because you know just >> you know take it back >> to even kids in grade school >> they're going to want to work for that sticker more than care about having to sit out of recess right
>> you know they want to be the shining star they don't want to be down on the bot >> that that you know and again the whole point behind this discussion and behind my suggestion is to um
encourage businesses to one comply with border health regulations uh for the for the for their benefit and the benefit of the community. >> Yeah. which a grading system >> well it not only does it it does the same thing but you are also rewarding
those that get that top score >> because people walk in and say hey I know I'm really safe to eat here >> I got an A >> I got an A I'm going into know I'm going to go hit the restaurant down the street they have an A rating >> I know it's >> I'm not going to the place that has a C
twice about it right >> I don't know I'd be curious to see do you know what towns around do this >> I don't know necessarily here. But I can tell you New York City doesn't been quite successful. >> Okay. >> I can certainly in the next couple of weeks do some um some research on what
their grading what it is there. You know, I can look around and see who has a grading system and and go from there and get some information so that you can all make an informed decision about one what has to happen two what the parameters are because I think that you would have to enact something as part of
the permit. you understand that by getting a food establishment permit from the town of Kingston that you must post your um inspectional rating at the door visible for all patrons to see kind of thing. >> Um so let me do some
research on it and I can find out what different places are doing, how they're doing it, and what they've had to enact to get it to be part of their permitting process. And it might be good um to contact New York or any other community that has that and get an example what
what does the plat look like? >> Yeah, that I can that's easy enough. >> I know we probably have fine print there. What you know what constitutes you know not not big bold letters but if people want to read the details you know. No, it is a big it's an 8 by it's
an 8 by11 and uh like say it's an A and it's A and then it says you know Board of Health Inspectional Services. This is the gray letter but I'll get you a mockup of what it looks like from the >> I appreciate that information. Okay, just give me a couple weeks to get it done. >> Sure.
>> Yeah, I think continuation on this would be acceptable. >> So Absolutely. It's make slowly. >> Yeah, I think it's a good idea. >> We're tableabling this. Yes. >> Great. >> Okay. When review revision fees, Joyce,
>> um so um most departments have a revision fee like so if um Heidi's an engineer, she gives me a set of plants and I stamp them in there, I'm good to go. And then for whatever reason somebody decides to
up the capacity or change things around or set in and does a revision and by that I mean there's some change to the design that requires me to sit and look at it again to make sure it meets compliance and does all that. There's usually um a
revision fee. You guys don't have them. Um you know I I I certainly somebody asked about it. like a we don't have one. Should he have one? If anything, it should be nominal. I don't think it should be >> I don't think we need one.
>> I don't think we see enough of them to validate it. >> Okay. >> Um that's just my opinion. >> The initial fee is built into the permitting fee. Is that correct? >> Yeah. >> Right. Okay. >> Which is what do you mean? >> Otherwise, when I come in, you submit
your plans, you get your permit, there's no >> Oh, I see what you're saying. when they have to disclose work. >> What you're saying is now the guy comes back and he says, "Oh, by the way, we're going to add this ADU and we're going to do this this >> because change the plan's changed,
>> right?" Well, >> so you have to look at the whole plan from scratch. >> Wouldn't that be an additional permit anyway? an ADU would be if you were adding an ADU onto a project. I'm going to eat the garbage. >> Well, what happens is when it comes in, if they've already, we had one that came
through that was just going to be straight septic and then it was, oh, we're going to add an ADU, so we got another set of plans, but they just because they had already submitted everything, they oh, it's a change of plans. So, we didn't have them do. So, I'm more than happy that if something
along those lines arise that it's a new starting from scratch, new permit, I'm good with that, too. I do. I just want clarification with how the board wants to handle it. >> What is the fee? >> For the fee for the disposal works installers permit is how much >> for the plan?
>> Yeah. Construction 25. >> How much? >> 225. >> It's 225. So you're looking for a fee if you have to do revision. If they have to if they're submitting revisions to the initial plan. Well, like Heidi says, is that
constitute a new a completely new >> permit >> starting over? >> That depends on what these revisions are. >> If all you're going to do is go from a 1500 to a 2500 two compartment tank because of a garbage disposal, I wouldn't say you need a whole new permit for that.
>> How much you talking? >> I'm talking about now we're going to two tanks in series or two two tanks one distribution. They change the leeing field. that kind of thing. You know what I >> single 1500 gallon to a battle tank. I
could say it less. >> How how much how much time is involve your time is involved in >> usually takes me a good >> I would say 20 minutes 30 minutes to go through a plan by by going using the D.
Thing is oh well apparently I need to slow down. No, I go through my checklist. I make sure that, you know, where's the benchmark? Is it noted north? Does it have does it have I literally go through every plan? >> Well, I in that case, I would put I'll
put a revision fee of $30. I mean, what it is, it's we're not supposed to profit from the the fees that we charge. It's supposed to cover the actual cost on our partner, but on average, it's about um
half an hour to an hour. Um $30 is a reasonable fee. I mean it's not 20 something. >> Yeah. But then why are we charging 225 at the beginning? >> Well, I don't want to go in most cases. >> I'm just saying I don't I don't agree with putting a fee on
>> Well, in most cases, and Heidi will comply concern in most cases if there's changes made during the construction, they worked out with the design engineer, the health agent, and the installer. and picked up on what's referred to as an asbuilt and that as
built that's submitted in the end the review fee for that that's all your permit >> all in your permit >> yeah that's why I'm thinking this is >> yeah I'm talking more about like when something changes from a single family subject to
uh adding an ADU then you're saying that should really be a whole brand new permit >> see that because I'm like they already paid 225 by it seems I don't think it's fair to charge them a
whole another 225 because they decide to turn a barn into a apartment now they're adding >> capacity >> capacity on their leeching gill and they adding a tank they still need to review the plans but I I don't know that
making them start over from scratch and charging a new another 225 that doesn't that doesn't seem fair to me but that's my opinion like I think that that's a nominal fee thing. No. >> Yeah. And that's not what I was saying. >> Yeah. >> What I'm saying is if you have submitted
your building permit >> Yeah. >> and you have paid your 225 >> Yeah. >> that that should cover you for your building what you're doing. Even if you decide to throw an ADU in there, you know, for the, as you just
said, 20 minutes to look at the plan again, we already charging them 225. I don't think we should be hitting them against >> I I agree. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Fine by me. I either way just >> moving on. >> Okay. >> Let's talk about probating these permit
fees. That was the other thing that you had on at this point. >> Yeah. So, >> that was you. >> Yeah. >> Tell them like you told it to me. Go ahead. >> You know, have them all going through transition and there's a lot of little places trying to open up and I had
couple young guys came in. wanted to open a place and they literally opened say I'm just pulling dates because I can't really remember what day it was but say October. So they have to pay an
entire year get a permit to open from October to December and then pay again in December for the next coming year. And for a lot of these smaller venues, I mean, it's a chunk of change in these startup venues, >> right? And and and let's be honest,
there's no guarantee that they're even going to survive the first year. >> So, my thought was to make and it would only be for new food establishments. That's it. Nothing else. >> And I'm looking at it because you're talking because they have to do a plan
review, which I think is 200. Then the cheapest food establishment is like 200. milk and cream, you're in the 450 range or more depending on how many seats. >> So, if we took it and did anytime between January and March 31st, you pay
the whole fee. Uh, April 1st to June 30th, you pay threequarters of the fee. Uh, August 1st to whatever, September 30th, you pay half the fee. November or uh October 1st
uh the end of the year you pay a quarter of the fee. I can't see prorating it per month. That's going to get a little >> Oh yeah, I would do it in quarters. >> I was trying to make it at least palatable. Yeah, I'm trying to make it so that we are attracting these food
businesses and giving people it's a hard business and giving people at least a chance to get started without incurring a whole bunch of debt when they don't even know if they're going to make it through the first year. >> I like that. >> I like that. Breaking it into quarters to everyone.
>> You're just dividing it by four, right? >> Yeah. those quarters of the year because I mean like you said isn't continuous when we're set break down by the month. >> Yeah. >> No, I agree. That's a great idea. >> You know, we could do that or we could think about something of if you're
opening in the second six months of the year, do we just cover them for the next 18 months under that? >> It get it gets really >> too much. Then we then you we have to we
have to manage who's whose permits ending right and we have how many staff how many food establishments it's not just restaurants it's convenience stores and right we're going to do it a thought >> we're going to do it we the way she's
proposed is the best way for the office if's interested in the simplest way for the office okay so >> the motion would be to allow the uh >> prorate fees on a quarterly basis. >> There you go. Allow the agent to prorate
the fees on a quarterly basis would be my motion for food establishment. >> Yeah, that >> food establishment and third item and uh all in favor I >> Okay, our next meeting is January. Does
anybody else have any other business? And on that happy note, other than merry Christmas, our next meeting is on January 5th. >> Happy New Year. Happy >> start. >> Happy New Year.
>> We'll see everybody in 2026. >> Just keep everybody something comes up. >> If there be no other business, I make a motion to adjure. >> Second. Okay. All in >> favor.
>> Okay. >> Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Be safe.