##VIDEO ID:zaiGAEToAyU## okay being 4:30 we'll open up the um January 22nd so Commissioners meeting elay and I D wats and I Brian Don I is anybody online Okay um you mention the commitment yeah the body PR short drive okay um sounds like they got an estimated um water sewer bill and they after doing actual reading it was much less than the estimated and they're looking for an adjustment so um so do they recommend an adjustment on it here though 12,500 gallons yeah well that's an average qu yeah like 197 yeah she she says was estimated 32,000 gallons of the 193 um how about this bill was estimated 32,000 gallons which is much higher than his typical usage yeah build usage is 193 oh here's usage in the middle 32 32 23 24 12 okay so how about I make a motion to adjust the estimated billing uh to an a to the average over the um last four quarters that way you can figure out the I'll second that all in favor hi hi just well with that so that's 15 16 18 14 so that's like around 16,000 probably okay just yeah you also see when you read these wherever it says these were estimated do they go along you're estimated estimated yeah some it's looking at 18 14 17 actuals right think 16 looks like the m just so we have so they were averaging for round 16 yeah yeah okay okay so we'll do do the average um okay how about update from the superintendent uh I'm trying to keep things brief there hasn't been a whole lot of craziness relative to Prior meetings um we got our damaged pump back from Mari and drive today oh good which is great good so um well we um got a a message from people that rebuild the pump saying that there's probably a foreign object in there that destroyed the pump so we had the pump station cleaned out sent you guys some pictures of it the rocks and brick that was in there so we get that cleaned out a new PP will get installed next week and we should be and running 100% is that a normal thing that you get that kind of debris in there well if there's any construction on any of say on original like new construction yeah it's likely something maybe is over time if you had some of the uh Rises on the man holes fall apart a lot of times the salt from the roads will get in this but interior in concrete you might get some bricks fall in that didn't get discovered and make their way down a lot so some of it's new construction you can't always watch every minute what's going on it could be that when it came in put Rises on new manholes that some of brick r fell in and no one took the initiative you don't feel like somebody pull popping a cover and no no we full stuff down no I wouldn't say it's any sort of deliberate action right right um but at this point it's cleaned out and ready to open the all our numbers continue to be good at the lab uh we did get one reading was a little higher than normal Carl just asked for a retest on it and things came back down where they should be oh good so other than that everything else is going great conc C hasn't set in that as a problem we had no freezing issues this time you in in the activity in there do do you have any heaters do you have heaters for the water just to keep temperature up in not not in the tanks so just the the heat from the blowers themselves they'll keep it relatively warm and then the influent coming in is probably with this kind of cold you know 9 degrees at night 4 degrees at night last night that can start to become a problem if the makeup air is coming from inside the building and it's warm that's that'll do it yeah it takes outside air pushes it through the blower the outgoing temperatures around 180 to 200 degrees blowing into the cold tank so at some right relatively that's depend that that system it's it solves that problem a lot of plants this is where they start becoming a real problem the bugs don't like it when it's yeah so we just increase we increase our blood populations in the lter because they operate slower yeah we have to inoculate a lot of plants you have to inoculate them with a cryo bacteria that will they like it being 50 or less and the other ones go to sleep the ones in the normal and the car back to think God this is great from We're from the Artic we think this is wonderful coming down here to swim they think right yes as opposed to New Orleans it's like New Orleans imagine the back down there they don't know what to do okay okay yeah I have to ex that conversation good I'm sorry I missed that are you all set okay we're just gonna quickly take Kathy hi hi guys hi um we don't have anything to share with you we did it didn't make our agenda this time do you have anything to share with us um I just want to say something I know what you're trying to do is wonderful I you can't do it because of it's been um the law however you put it to me last time we met but I just does it mean that you have to change the law if you're going to do a buyback for okay right now we have a buyback program for vacant Lots only right so for us to um consider something like this because it's it's specific in our by laws our rules and regulations for vacant laws we would have to change that to who now say um residential and that's that's the piece we would need to discuss on whether or not we want to reduce the value of a residential property um based on less eus okay so that bylaw change would be have to be discussed and would have to be brought before um the board of Selectmen how does that work no that it's strictly the sewer commissioner's rules and regulations but we'd have to have a public hearing to change the actual rules and regulations and what would the time frame be on that if you decided to do it uh posting would be the two weeks in the newspaper okay and then you'd have a public meeting just like this a public it to actually be a public hearing we'd have to post it and put it in the newspaper and make everybody aware that we viewing our rules and regulations with this being a p the piece of it all right okay um [Music] so I I know you're probably concerned about opening the floodgates um with this buyback program to set a precedent um if you do agree to it to add residential but I think um you know the I don't think the legion's in that category I know it's not a vacant Apostle but I don't think it's in the residential category you know it's definitely you know it and it's it's not a defunct private Social Club it's it's an an nationally recognized entity and you know that's who we're trying to help out and you know over the years they've been there you know they've donated and supported to lots of community activities and they still give scholarships so you know I don't know if if hopefully if you do are able to amend your bylaws that you could put some kind of caveat in there that it this would you know the amendment not for residential but for special circumstances you know that they would meet special circumstances you know they're not they're not a nonprofit they're just veterans so you know if going forward you do decide to amend your bylaws and add some language I think you know not so you open the floodgates specifically for the legion it would be you know maybe a nonprofit or however you want to word it and if if you want I can talk to you later about that but that's my feeling that they shouldn't be categorized in the as in the residential you know envelope just I think that's a reasonable comment I mean not that any comment is not reason but it's a good comment that that think this is such a new thing you know no one never anticipated like every regulation ever written CHP of thousand some things that are going to happen so you come up with something like this you go okay how do we fix it and make it fair I think that's our goal come up with a fair way to do it but not set a precedent such that we end up losing something in the process and then we now we have to start thinking about what if what if what if on other things but I think what you said making this a special circumstance that the commission would have maybe make a determination on a very special circumstance have a public meeting like we're having and talk about it so we don't have to change the BW is necessarily gives gives us that flexibility something like that that might be a way to take the next step yeah either way we got to do a change in the RS yeah I mean like you just said I mean this is not a residential and this is this is a hardship basically for them because and we have to be careful because this isn't on the agenda I don't want to be the okay all right so I just want to make that statement okay we'll we'll let you know when we're going to talk about it how's all right all right we have a a a good discussion on it all right sounds great okay thanks Kathy all right thank you guys y okay um anything else Dave no okay um yeah so you want you want to start off with this or do you did I send something out to everybody last night or yeah so I I apologize I've been kind of out of commission yesterday so just trying to catch up on some stuff so I just looking at all the moving Parts um you know Kathleen and I had some discussions this morning and I think from a thousand fo perspective we all have different numbers we're work and with and we all have to kind of figure out how we get to the same Comfort level with all these different numers know s discovering some information from town files and you have plenty of information on your end um Jeanie and I have been going through some numbers and I I'm hoping by sharing our numbers here we'll at least see that we're all the same Target area um with some specifics that we'll have to dial in and see how accurate they are I put together some notes today and which one start with so this is something I'm just working on now de so this operating or or um debt so what I did is I looked at a revenue for 25 y accepted uh revenue for users accepted revenue and came up with a total revenue so I'll just give you one of these and canol and the alignment of these items like I say this Russian put it together B SC so it's not completely in alignment so if you're looking at some of these numbers they don't fall directly under the the title given to them but if you follow fy2 I come up with revenue of 1. 62024 and our accepted Revenue estimated to be [Music] 400,000 total revenue should be 2,00 uh excuse me 2 million yeah I get it 2 mil 20,000 2 milon 20 20,000 240,000 um payroll 562 operating budget 947 Town allocated cost 34487 so the total budget without the plant debt in the leeching fields should give us should give us 164,000 in the plus we take our plant debt at 748 th000 we have what I have for number is 397 9951 for pment do that debt so we short 350 528 we subtract out a surplus revenue of 16479 I see a debt shortfall of about 18581 now and Kathleen did something that that's similar so our numbers are seem to somewh in line with each other yeah I I think um overall the operator budget I think we we we're good with that to an extent I mean there may may be a shortage but I I don't see one right okay I think the the um going down the rabbit hole is debt we know we know what our debt numbers are we just don't know how much revenue we really have to pay that debt we have been um that's why all this past week or two I've been what it what charge codes make up what your because at the end of the day we know we have X number of properties that have been sewered and are they all being build every year that should be the ones that have not been paid off are they all being build that's and then we know we have a firm number of what Revenue to expect and then you get into um the uh retained earnings of $3 million dollars and all this other stuff so um I know you wanted to talk about something to be on the agenda for tonight so I don't know so my what I ask to be on the agenda doesn't isn't specifically about you know where where you where you stand in fiscal 25 um or where you anticipate standing in fiscal 26 um my concern I guess is I want to make sure I guess my concern is we we had con there were conversations that occurred about um additional betterment assessment on properties that had already been bettered uh we talked like we the three of us the assessor I'm not sure in the room but at least four of us were in that room having a conversation with Jay who indicated that for example um the new leeching Fields you could better you could better a property that has been better for the original project and included the original leing field uh but by a much smaller amount than bettering a a property that's coming on to the sewer system that that has that is beinged now that has never received a betterment for for the leaching Fields yeah we have two two re ways to get Revenue one is a betterment and like there everybody's saying you can't charge a betterment twice but you can charge the connection fee so that's so yeah I I don't the impression I've been given by Jay is you can't charge somebody a second so if somebody's already paid a connection fee to connect to the Kingston sewer can't charge this connection okay what I'm being told by legal well and I'd like to be part of the conversation because J and I specifically put this language together to allow that to happen I'll see you tomorrow I'd like yeah we'll try to set something up that would be great let me know when you're available again I'm uh we aren't trying to be antagonist or or get in the middle of seart Department business I'm just from my point of view I'm hearing can't do it but we may do it um and I'm just before you get too far down a road um where um I I want to make sure that everybody's on the same page and understands what can and can't be done so a mistake isn't made and and whatever um adjustments have to be made to make sure that you guys collect the money you need to collect being done that's that's that's that's my issue or my the reason I want wanted to try to come tonight just to make sure that the Sewer Commission the county department and I are on the same page just so there's no we all understand what you're can right and I'm glad you're coming because this is the I mean this has never U Been a concern of big before we've been doing it for years um and was there an alternative offered if if in fact that turns out to be true how are we going to raise the revenue for this I I think way you can raise rat okay I mean I'll wait to talk with you then okay I mean I'm not sure what other what other way would you suggest we've been going under the whole the whole purpose of that connection fee I agree betterman's Cy charged twice and I few months ago this was this conversation was going on and um I did a follow-up email with everybody who copied on it and I never heard back that it wasn't valid so that's why I just want to have a conversation with Jay sure because that's how we create that's the whole intent of creating this if you don't let me know when you're available next week I'll CJ things work for him yeah whatever works for you I can make it work again I I don't care I'm just offering so we all hear the same thing does it make any sense at all to have suit have it have it be held at a Sewer Commission meeting so the sewer Commissioners hear what's going hear what Jay's response is so there's no so everybody hears the same any sense to do that I mean I think that makes sense but I'm I'm a little bit confused now there was a discussion I thought was part of the problem was taxing separately somehow and that that's not on the table right we're not doing that at all that's off the table okay um so we're talking now about strictly the leashing field Capital cost the concept of a weighted betterment something like that yeah when you were on in that that call James mentioned that we thought we could do some sort of betterment to an existing user for a share of the new reaching fees it was his opinion that he couldn't charge the same amounts for better then we would charge somebody who's never been charged with better to be able to connect to the m purer and ultimately they connect to the new Legion so can you say that one sure so if I'm if I'm a if I'm a a long-term Kingston sewer user and I've been charged the better to connect to the mpal Sewer okay uh um part of that betterment was the cost to construct the plant and construct the The Originals each right U Jay it was Jay's opinion that day that if if me as a long-term user who already paid for the original paid my share for the original region he felt as though we could we could charge some sort of I don't want to call significant But A reduced rate to the existing user and I'm just going to throw numers $500 for for somebody who already paid a vment for the original Legion view now that would that would be different if a new user came on and had never paid a betterment for anything in the past that the betterment assessment for the new reaching field would be uh a a higher fee than thank you the a higher fee than um than the the person who's already paid a v on the existing okay so the the mechanism of charging an existing sewer customer uh second amount of money whatever we call it is still viable what's what's okay so that's that I don't have a problem with it sounds like the um different conversation is how much to charge that EX existing sewer customer to someone who isn't already on the system okay so so I'm good with that we don't need to talk to J if that's the situation so I didn't think we were gonna be able to charge anybody existing no he said that what he said I believe what he said was um that the existing customer would pay a reduced betterment for the upgrade to of a new region it would not be and again he didn't come out and say it's got to be 25% it's be 50% but the impression I walked away from was a a a the majority of whatever the a betterment be would be for a new customer for the existing customer it would be significantly less and I I don't know how to define significant so I'm sorry that pro pro rated rated some and and and I I can understand that thought process the way better the way any assessment is applied today without this new information the cost of the project divided by the users I understand so you know that either we can have a public me public meeting with Jay on so we can all be on the same page because it doesn't sound like that and then take it from there there's a lot of different terms being used same things yeah and there's differences of opinion because what you just said means you're going to take the entire leaching field uh expense and put this through to well I think we're talking about I think this this discussion there's 2,000 people on it now and there's another thousand that might come on it you'd wait it in such a way that again using numbers it'd be a $50 betterment on the users cons already paid into the betterment and then we got $500 on the others something like that when I left the meeting that was definitely put out there as an idea I left the meeting also in my mind what we talked about is that there would be no additional charge to the users that's part of what we're trying part of what I'm trying to figure out how do we reconcile that so the last sentence you just last you said there be no there would be no charge there was a previous commitment to the users that there would be no additional charge now we're coming up with a legitimate way to deal with that in the the town meeting every town meeting we pitched it the last town meeting I said that the the existing customers would probably be paying for the leeching but there was a commitment before that all that happened that's you're right so there's a commitment in their minds that they wouldn't be now there's an adjustment we made to compensate for that the discussion we have I think has to come back with do we really need that or not well depend so from my point of view maybe I'm you've got you've got so many units I don't know what the right term is plus to 2,000 uh that you can sell oh yeah provide waste water for when when does water part of the water oh yeah right so it's up to the Sewer Commission I think to determine if there's 2,000 units and it cost $2 million I'm just using numbers that are simple to calculate right what is that $1,000 a unit to get the $2 million then you you you then have over the time of the bond you repaid that $2 million cost for the reaching field by charging um those customers that that per unit cost if if there's an ability to charge existing users a a a smaller fee when you going to figure out okay how many units have I already sold how many units do I have available to new new new customers and and you know do a calculation that accounts for regrouping the total cost of leing GR in theory that's already been done had we had the fourth tank every had customers for the fourth tank they would be charged more money than the existing betterments which would have covered a very big portion of the leeching fields and any difference if there were any would probably be recouped by the existing customers but it all we were going down that path it all changed so this is why we're trying to get a handle on how much revenue do we really have how much revenue is available to us to possibly Bridge a gap between us and getting the fourth tank sold that so that's why we see three million dollars in retained earnings and um well I you can get into the spreadsheets because it says retainer earings but either way there's more than a million dollars in retained ear okay so we have act what we as nonf Financial people would look at as excess funds that I we can't tap we can't tap but this is why it all what's our Revenue when we get that number then we can as a board start to make some decisions to the point that Revenue had a nice discussion in the Daye the uh one number that sticks out to to me is and it's retained earnings but it's not retained earnings it's assigned to a betterment over a schedule that that was a very important point this was retained earnings from the mall connection that has no note open to it and so it looks like to us we have around 1.6 or something like that million which is not um unap portion it's not unor I what the right yeah yeah I can talk about chemistry and stuff anyways so on question so can that be used in the short term to offset some of our um shortfall particularly in the next two years and this gets back to my committee which this number so I can't I can't go to a committee without what are we trying to do I don't really know yet um it's so there's that piece and then buying time for other Capital Revenue coming in in a couple years but that that's a really important to me that's a really important decision point is what of whatever retained earnings cash on hand whatever it's called is not a marked for something else that we can then take and and solve some of this immediate problem because I'm of the opinion that we should be using betterments for Capital cost reimbursement and omm should be used as feeds only you're not mixing them we've done that a little bit but that if we have to do we have to do it but that just gets us down a gets us do the road which not not good for an Enterprise account so a couple of things I this is the first time hearing with these numbers so I can't really speak to them but what I've heard is two numbers 1.6 is which is fund for unreserved fund balance or retained earnings that's actually in the veteran fund they prepaid uh the all prepaid betterments so it's it's put in the betterment fund and it is so it's turned unap portioned so they've paid like if you we look at the the Deb service schedule it's for future years yeah so it's future year money that will get allocated on a yearly basis based on their predetermined so that's one that 1.6 if that's the number the mall is prepaid it's reserved it's reserved so and then the $3 million in the lane mentioned who I made a mistake I it's not retained earnings it's reserve for betterment says reserve for betterment 3,1 181,000 so that's un portion vment that's future money okay for the next 20 years of that service so that's that's my question that's the big my big one of my big questions okay let's guess a million six of that is the the prepayment of the apartment if not what makes up 3 million one of us having that much collection ahead of time what it is is these are it's to be build right they haven't even paid that that's not money necessarily there's future it's a liability okay it's debt it's not money it's not a debt it's liability that these all the homeowners have to pay they're on the hook for the next whatever terms that they have participate around years yeah yeah so they owe this it's like a mortgage money not money in the bank it's not money in the bank is it's money to be paid to the town over the over the life of their betterman so what it is is it's some people are prepaid so there is like some cash on hand and so the mall prepaid right so it's but it's not money you can get it is put in the bucket for each year okay so whether it's in the bank or to be paid they are allocated for each year and you can't mix the two together it's apples and oranges and it's even if there's all if everybody be paid it's allocated for each year right so the money would be there on the debt comes to you can't take fy3 money and use it next year but so the money so the money has been it's it's it's it's in retained area but it's been reserved for a specific purpose in this case it's been it's reserved for annual debt payments um that service that the the betters have been paid into I mean let me drill down a little bit my understanding was when we talked I misunderstood no much much of that much of that was as you said anticipated Revenue in the case of the mall they paid it all up front and there was no note associated with it there was a there was there was no srf loan associated with it my understanding is so the de the deal there was separate from the entire srf process they gave us betterments based on our rules and regulations of $222,000 per eru which came up to 3.2 million half of that was spent for engineering design paid off and construction which was paid off and in the bank is 1.6 million that's not part of this Revenue going forward it should be allocated as a in the bank for the Sewer Commission if that's true then we should have 1.6 million to draw on for the capital cost of the leion field specifically because the other money is already allocated for the rest of the expansion and all those other things was there an agreement is there some kind of documentation that you had with them that would outline that's what I have to go to to that they paid the betterment in full what it's for and what it's to be used for they paid their betterment in full so then their betterments like it's just like Mary Smith down the street who pays her betterment money in the cat it's money in the bank see I think the difference is those monies were allocated looking forward from 20 years ago so so it was a reduction in the amount of debt you you incurred yeah so right so so we had we had so look at all those all these Mass water pollution bitman thrusts there all these millions of are in there those are what I think we're talking about on earnings anticipated to pay those notes coming from betterments that are $200 $500 a year from whoever of these five 600 people who are left to pay us and the no on and whatever then we have this new cash that came in within the last four years or five years yeah that specifically was for there was no note I mean they made a shortterm came in here you go 3.2 million pays for the construction pays for the engineering design that's all paid and left is the betterment fee that the Sewer Commission has to use so I'll use the word unrestricted unrestricted unrestricted I'm I'm putting that on the table because I think it's unrestricted because there is no forward-looking note to pay off because it wasn't every note so if I if I understand what you're saying I'm GNA use I'm just going to pull out numbers right yeah the cost of the engineering construction of the leeching fields is million or whatever the number I I don't know what the again I'm just fabricating number $3 million okay just let me just I don't know up planed up so the the money that was given by the apartment complex at the mall was $3 million 3.22 3.2 million a portion of that 3.2 or all of it I'm not sure which I but it's used to fund the engineering work that was done right and to pay for a shortterm a portion of the construction cost all of the construction cost for the sewer connection from the mall to hook up to our existing sewer that included a pump station right right right so the project so for arum to say the project cost was $5 million right and just F see I'm trying to keep this yeah no no kidding a certain amount of money a certain amount of money from from the from the apartments was funded was given to this to the the sewer department so they wouldn't have to be part of the so the amount of money that was borrowed was the total cost of the project less the amount of money given by the mall to use for this projects so the net the net of that was whatever the number was and it kept them the mall already paid right right it's for the sewer commission's use for Capital cost reimbursement whatever you did not have to not borrow any of the costs associated with connecting the mall apartments to to the so just to maybe clarify a little bit so instead of what would typically happen um there would be a loan from srf or some other loan whatever some other loan and we B borrow on that and take the money and pay it off like we have with all the other benefits but in this particular case what we did is we took they gave the whole thing so no note no payment no nothing for us to use for the purposes of cap again I keep capital and operation maintenance completely separate that betterment is 100% for Capital cost reimbursement so in this situation we have that money now and we can offset I think any Capital cost shortfall we have here rather than stealing from our onm side we can put it towards this right now I'm confused with is i i g if the apartments gave you $3 million and you use that money to pay down the some of the construction cost in the project so you only had to B you only had to borrow the total project cost less than $3 million given by the apartment complex the department complex has paid the airair share of the upgrade of plan that is normally paid for through assessment but it was paid for up Fund in cash so wouldn't you so I guess where I'm confused is I shouldn't have I shouldn't have a p of money left from the apartment compy because I used the money they gave me to fund their portion if you want to call it that of the project so that's where I guess some where are you losing okay they they paid so here the two here's the two pieces there's there's think of it into that's the sewer sewers already in the ground all that stuff's in the ground the betterment costs for those are to be born by anyone who hooks up anytime later okay so their cost for the sewer connection just from our closest point to their system they paid for it okay and the betterment the balance that's left is for us to use the pay off the capital cost that they should have been one for the treatment plan and everything else just like everybody else did so like a better so yeah but it's a no but it's not hangor so they they gave you $3 million just right for their share a portion of the $3 million was to fund the connection from the plant to the apartment complex ofal the remaining amounts after the cost for that connection was for plant upgrade PID paid a ban no no well it's for any it's for any it would have it would have been for anything Capital cost related the SE commission wanted to pay off they. so they gave you $1.6 million more based on our betterment fees for the amount of flow that they had gotten from us in our rules and regulations they paid $22,000 per eru okay and that was our that the entire reason for that was to collect money enough to pay for anything we had for Capital cost and you know and I'm separating out everybody else was done kind of on a long-term 30-year mortgage kind of place okay this was a unique thing for for us to be able to get that money not to it's paying it off I mean we're going to use it but we're going to use it on the shortterm debt payment legitimately it's a debt payment on the notes that are outstanding which is WR back to your point the debt that's still left out there for the leeching field or the expansion or anything else that's not paid for everything else should be already accounted for that's the the good news is Phase One and phase two already taken care of we've already got those taken care of so this is to me I think to us is money we can use it's unrestricted funds there was no debt out there no currently there's no debt me there's no debt out there that needs to needs to have some of this $1.6 million that's left from the mall apartments for the connection itself just the connection is paid for 100% so the balance of what's left is to pay off Capital costs of the entire plant and everything that's in the ground that's everyone else is paying off but it's not restricted to any particular note it was given to us and this is the whole way it's set up that's why keeping onm cost separate from Capital so we not mixing we're paying off onm if we use an onm to pay off Capital that's wrong too that that means we have users over here whoever they are paying for something that they already paid for out of the US a fee instead of going to this guy to run the pl so that's a philosophical can I just clarify so they gave you $1.6 million above and beyond what they need they would have incurred if they actually got a betterman no they gave exactly what they should have gotten for their betterment exactly so they paid $3.2 million yes is their betterment for whatever period of time that was calculated based on their usage the 20,000 [Music] so that's how they paid it is irrelevant to the process is not to be used for other things those funds are built in to how much money is in the betterment F this is this just again the point they were not given to us assigned to a loan on a schedule to pay off for 20 years or 30 whatever it was it was given to us to pay Capital costs as we needed but it went in better well I mean the now and it's it's it's so I get it so I guess where I'm still confused I'm not understanding I'm still the slow guy in the room so I apologize I'm right there with you the the the apartment complex was was assessed a betterment of $3.2 million right based on their based on their flow wa excuse me just they also paid Advanced didn't they pay some Advanced yeah they bought some Advanced num too they bought some Advanced paid us in advance just like Big W maldi they paid us more money because they wanted to be able to expand without us7 same kind of thing though okay so they they wrot a check for the Inon Su excuse me $32 million for their share of sewage going into the they share of the capital capital cost of this of the sewage treatment plant and its collection system that was I mean Capital not mean money capital mean Capital meaning infrastructure infrastructure yeah okay so they they contributed it was calculated based on their usage their better for their usage was 3 was 3.2 M the mall develop the I'm sorry Department developers decided I think we'd rather not get a better 20 or 30 years we'd rather just give you the $3.2 million that check front right now right so I guess where I'm where I'm falling off um understanding what's going on is they prepaid for $3.2 million worth of usage and actually not uses Capital cost they they they paid for connection fee I understand that but Bas on it's they paid and I get I'm sorry if no no no I'm telling you as I look around the room I'm I'm alone here and I'm looking at everybody appreciate I think they paid 3.2 milon which was what they would have been better over the length of the B exactly right just the water but in lie of borrowing $1.6 million paying for expenses that were incurred in you know in the the whole project the construction in the construction so in lie of that money going to pay off debt service it went directly to pay back the expense so it t so they're really is that it kind of paid off its own debt it's kind of an it's it's it paid off debt that it wasn't that they paid off a debt that the amount borrowed $1.6 million once what would have need be borrowed if the apartment complex had not there was no borrowing let me they paid it back if they had borrowed money they had borrowed Mone the department said we are going to pay we're going to pay a Ben 20 years whatever the length of is that's how the dep would have had to borrow an additional amount that that loan would increased by whatever the betterment was for the mall right fair enough right so when you say that the vment money that was collected from the apartment complex is not tied to a bond yeah I I understand what you're telling me um but I I I I still think I guess where I'm I'm still thinking that the 3.2 that was collected how how about what question I don't understand why it wasn't spent I mean that's I'm confused right that that's that's that's let's stop right there then that's a good point so H you got to think of this as a a cash payment it's a cash payment trying put it in the terms I understand so now so I paid off and my cash payment was for two things I have to hook up the SE the Sewer Commission is not going to pay to hook you up so you would have paid a betterment we $2 million let say to put the pipe in a pump station and hook you up and then you pay us off for that but instead of a note that is in involved with that here's a cash boom done so here's the other money that's left was their payment of the betterment which was structured 25 years ago to accomplish all the capital costs now when we did the system originally set it up we had in in in Kathleen's you know explain is that all these betterments would put out on 20 or 30- year notes and we were collecting them and all that money going to that benit that particular kind of bay payment from all these individuals is going into account into a bank account that's structured to pay off those debts so don't touch it I agree this money was put in for us to spend as needed to pay off any short-term capital costs that we deem necessary and furthermore we would adjust our we've already started to adjust our benefits going forward for anybody else who hooks up ran we I'm follow the turn of truck and I apologize one more and then I'm gonna yeah that's fine I appreciate it so $3.2 million is what they gave right and that was what was determined to be their share of cost to connect to the Kingston sew B so connect and up and and pay for the betterment that was paid the money we spent on phase one the expansion understood so so that's so there's a check of three 3.2 million using your example I'm just I know that it's not exact but I'm just using your example you you said that there was a there was a cost to run if I understood correctly cost to run the connection from the plant not from plant from a manhole in the street from a manhole to the apartment $2 million right okay so that so what that means to me is there's $1.2 million in costs associated with with the either the connection uh of hang on let me just finished con of the apartments or so that up we ask a different way so I've got a balance of one of of $1.2 million left 3.2 less $2 million that $1.2 million was a cost assigned to the hotel or something apartment or something right but what was it what what so what was that we're not going to get to the other side of this here this this is important I mean I think I've said it but all the other costs that are out there for the treatment plant the construction the expansion and all the sewers in Route 3A and all that are still Capital costs being paid for by the Sewer Commission with the sewer commission's oversight that money is for that the the betterment cost wasn't just for a particular particular thing it's for the entire system so those $222,000 was part for eru that's why it's for eru so if you have a single family home you paid one eru if you were the VFW had they paid five the all paid you know some they had they're all different so they all depend on the flow so the apartment the apartment complex wasn't just wasn't just they weren't charged $3.2 million just for the plant up their connection just keep just their connection they paid for that was so anything else all the rest of the money was all the other things okay I I gotta what we right now what we know is right now the 1.6 is being considered a betterment that is being proport being paid throughout the year what would make from an accounting perspective that change to be cash in the bank like some kind of document that says it's not a betterment shouldn't be in that fund okay there had to be some agreement that got signed with them all they don't just give large checks like that so that's that's the yeah that's what we that's but even if it just to be clear that 1.6 million so rather than incurring debt and taking that money to pay the debt back via betterment mechanism the 1.6 million that was not allocated towards anything at the time is because there wasn't a corresponding expense I don't think to actually attribute it to so it was set aside for future and then as those expenses were incurred the town then went out and borrowed money which that money is now going to pay back using using the $1.6 million so that was so whether or not you call it a betterment an agreement an off book thing a contribution or like a you know a nice retirement plan that money is to pay for Debt Service incurred to cre to expand a plant and not and the and then the leion field is a whole other thing but so you so regardless of how you do it those funds have to be allocated for that Debt Service forward you will have deficits in the future so so can I ask like a dumb down question if we look at a plant expansion debt in in either of these spreadsheets so for 25 FY 25 we're at 74571 and we have a yearly Revenue to a that debt of 397 951 yep does that 397 951 include the monies the 1.6 from i' have to double check like how this was all allocated that that might set an idea on how but you're still short but that's the problem we're still short so then 1.6 to no that 1.6 is a whole bucket of money let's say the let's say add the apartment not paid us in F let's say their yearly debt would be 50,000 so the qu to Dave's point is that 50,000 in here to be paid is it in that Revenue stream or is it outside that that's the double check and but to be honest like you know and to be fair and I'm not throw or under the bus this is all the stuff that Carol put together and this is all the money that is in every single fund that is used to pay for Capital costs whether they're debt or they're actually incurred in reimbursements that's all the money there is and there is not enough to cover the future debt that is incurred because there's a shortfall if I look at the way the funds were allocated and this is what Brian and I talked about um and not to go too on a rabbit holes I wanted to see what the source of all of this funding was there was an arrangement to determine X number of people have to pay X number of dollars and those funds are for this particular borrowing or something along those lines how did it start how is the schedule mapped out because you can't do like I'm going to charge $50,000 but I'm going to have $100,000 in expense you're going to have a deficit which has to be made up somewhere so there had to be a map of where this started and no one has the map right and that's why again like I said at the beginning of all this we got to get back to the charge codes because the charge codes don't really have anything to do with it the charge codes are certain allocation of things for certain parcel IDs and that is all charged out how that came to be is what's missing agreed but to see what our shortfall really is we need to determine if every property is being they are being built how where's can we validate that you don't have a source document to verify it again I'm you show me the list of where it started these 50 people exactly we trying to do it wouldn't we would provide a document of Hils to Bill the money amount and how it was allocated was every property allocated we don't I can check that I need a list is Aaron this is what Aaron is trying to do exactly right that's what we're trying to get our hands around and none of us were here to create the list somebody has to have a list in and on the reverse of that someone should have record of receiving the list we're both in the same I have a whole list it's right problem how about you give us our your list and we'll validate so what we can I interrupt real quick um properties we know should be sewed so okay at this point at this point I believe the Sewer Commission is working with Aon to try to try to do just what you're being proposed so um that information should be known sometime and hopefully in the near future right so I just just I I don't know Jee had a chance to talk to this week but I talked to her last week she really got the thing together again Matt has been able to help her with some GIS documents it seems to be coming together really fast but the idea exactly what you're saying is to know exactly what lots have been paid or not paid where they are so we can start to reconcile this whole thing and know how many didn't get on that were cut off because we ran out of capacity in 2003 all those numbers are coming together but so we'll have that number so I my impression was that things were going along as anticipated the challenge I guess with the shortfall starts to come into play is is the expansion of the sewer plant where the expectation was we would have water to sell so you'd have new connection to sewer and the new connections for the sewer would be paying a betterment it would offset ultim once it's all sold out would offset the cost of bond the problem I think that's happen is as we all payfully to know I've bet no water the cell which means I can't connect the sewer sewer connection which means the bond payment for the uh the treatment plan upgrade is not being supported by or offset by the appropriate amount of v and because of that you've got find another another Revenue Source the offset whatever is not being picked up um by users who be in charged of vs for the treatment I think that's what that so we can go back 30 years ago but I'm not sure that's the real issue we Mays here and there it seems like to me anyways you know we borrowed X number of dollars the sewer plant with the expectation we were going to have X number of people to pay a better offset cost of of the annual debt and we did have those customers we did I'm not I'm not I'm not no I just need to say that publish we had and when when when when the sewer plant at some point when the sewer plant was was finished up and ready to accept new users septage those new users weren't there by and large because there was no water to flush a toilet with so there are there's there's a bond payment that's due on an annual basis by the Department to for the funding of the reaching I'm sorry the the treatment plan expans and there aren't the there aren't the corresponding users paying whatever they have to pay in a vment fee pay the bond so the sewer department is a gap between annual Bond payment for treatment plant and betterments were receiving from treatment plant and that and I'm suggesting that this money that was allocated before any of us were in this situation was all at in a way that should was not meant to pay off a note going out in time necessarily and that in that fashion instead we have cash in the bank that we can use particularly in the short term to do exactly what it was intended to do pay off the capital cost of any outstanding Capital monies that the Sewer Commission needs to pay where I where I where I still am not fully understanding the situation is apartment complex five or six years ago says to the Sewer Commission we don't want to we don't want a betterment we're going to write you a check of $3.2 million no it's based on a betterment I understand that we don't want a better right we we understand there's a better of 3.2 million rather than rather than having a a a payment long-term debt where I'm going to give you a better for the next 20 or 30 years me apartment complex musters give you the $3.2 million in deadly right Fair now it sounds like it was $2 million expended of the money that came from the the apartment for 1.6 to pay a bon which is shortterm loan sure for the the cost in the expansion at that point in time sewer connection not expansion the sewer connection well for the sewer project the project their sewer project I just their so so .6 was for their part of the cost of their sewer only the rest of it was for the rest of the sewer all the rest of the sewer treatment PL I think we got to find out this was five or six years ago find out what document was signed I we go from there I just don't know why the mall would give you all that money because they owe it to us we're not solve this here we not going to solve it a thousand foot point this is an issue to deal with right yeah and going forward um it will help us address maybe how long we can work through the shortterm issue of our Deb is so if we look five years out when the water system comes on board things are going to somewhat fix themselves but the shortterm run that we have to look at our options but if you use future money with the the thought process is the ISS the issue back at the issue I don't want to take but so we better we better determin we better determin if I could what that $1.6 million that's remaining from the mall the apartments at the mall what the purpose of that 1.61 because I pretend to agree with Kathleen I don't know why as a I guess where I'm confused and still have full understand why would the mall give you a $3.2 million check Ed half it was five or six years ago let's go back I know but we're I get it information I get it I think so my point and I agree I don't like to spend money that's set aside for something else because then when you need that it's not there um but you know we look at and see how was that document set up how is it funded is that 397 portion of that 1.6 I I will go and I don't want to make any assumptions knowing what Carol did at the time that money is in there then it's not like it's extra I just I will figure out which fund that money went into but when I kind of traced it out because I I looked at it I was like what the heck is this money it didn't make any sense and it like took forever to figure it out and I was like why did this go here and there and so based on what I saw was RA like rather than us like holding on to the money to pay it incrementally there wasn't an incremental expense it was all an upfront expense and so it was just done ahead it was more like it's almost like like there should be like a big wall like what was done with the money when I was received really shouldn't be part of the discussion you know because it gets a it's it's kind of doing apples and oranges and you know it is we just want to figure out what it is and my biggest issue is if that $1.6 million is in there and you still have that shortfall how are you going to pay for the shortfall and this is where we're trying to get around the other side of the revenue we have a list of every property that is sewered we now need to know if they're being built that's our that's our right was there ever in the years in the I don't know like 15 plus years 20 years almost that all this has been going on has there ever been an audit there was about 10 years ago 10 years ago do you have those documents I we'll see if we can find them but it comes it comes down to an AIT now things have fallen on and off we've seen it within the past couple of years that fils haven't been build and that's my my concern well who did you bring that concern up to this they weren't shown on bills okay well I guess my concern is is when those things came to light what was done to remedy them so we can make they just came to Right light now in the past few do we have a list of so you you had mened you had mentioned that there was every property that should buil that is on sewer that should be built so if we can get a copy of that list I think it's I think we very easily can determine whether or not each one of those properties was was was issued a better being being resourceful of your resour being give us what you have and we'll do the the fting do you have un access for the time I do not but St does we should be able so like our staff so K let's let's do this let's let's see if we can I'm not trying to add more work I appreciate that so let's try to let's try let's try to do this let's let's we we'll clap to the assess Department because they handle all Dev stuff let's see if the assess department has the capability of providing a list of all the betterments all the super vment all the properties that are receiving super and then we can give that that would be great there are reports that can generate I mean and that's charge codes come into play right it's hundreds of hundreds of pages that's fine so we'll just let us get let us get you what we what we can provide that would be great you guys can then look at that and say this this is all the information we need to do the double cheing right or it's not can you get this but you have to go through we'll try to get we'll try to get a prop we'll try to get a property map and lot number because the only we got that we could we will try to get um the owner name obviously for now but again may be an issue we will try to get a betterment code um that's that's the right term you right so you know which betterment code that that particular property is being assigned to and you know if we can I don't know if we can what the last betterment bill amount was you know even the bill file the the the preliminary Bill file in the actual bill file J is well let us try to get wrap up yeah those are let us try to get what we can and we'll give it to you and and we we can go try get all right all right good thank you for all your conversation appreciate it we're all the same team will one conversation they will and they all we're all do the right the same exactly we're trying to all just thank you all we have anything you know anything critical to talk about that somebody you want you want to meet next week at all do you need do you want to meet next week yeah probably a good idea okay Tuesday 4:30 make a motion to adjourn second all in favor I