WEBVTT METADATA Video-Count: 1 Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=MV7qHDXkuvg NOTE MEETING SECTIONS: Part 1 (Video ID: MV7qHDXkuvg): - 00:00:11: Meeting Opening and Project Flood Map Concerns Overview - 00:06:10: 40B Struggles, Record Inclusion, Contingent Project Approval - 00:11:04: Balancing Pros and Cons, Town Benefit Discussions - 00:16:10: Design Changes, Profit Motive, and Requested Proforma - 00:21:11: Road Width, Ladder Truck Access, Denial Conditions - 00:25:11: Affordable Housing Density and Kingston Land Discussion - 00:29:38: Copper Beach Road Concerns and Expert Deference - 00:34:13: Setting Conditions, Flood Map Change, Board Turnover - 00:37:14: Density Concerns, Traffic Study, and Snow Removal - 00:42:32: Density Definition, Land Usage, 40B Project Opposition - 00:47:15: Litigation Strategy, Flood Plane Issue Negotiation - 00:51:13: Drafting Denial Letter and Potential Approval Switch - 00:55:06: Map Change Filing, Wetland Evaluation, Developer Strategy - 00:57:39: Meeting Scheduling and Justification Details Needed - 01:02:49: Jeie's Help with the Details and Possible Appeals Part: 1 1 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:27.519 open the meeting. It's being April 7th, a little after 6 PM. Open the Kingston uh voting board of appeals. I got a second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Very good. only one thing on the docket tonight and 2 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:42.879 that's to decide which direction we're going to go with the decision and I guess I'll ask you first what would you what are our pitfalls for going left or right >> the weird thing about this one and it came up last time is this whole thing 3 00:00:42.879 --> 00:00:59.120 with the flood map >> and their engineer they didn't want to admit it you know we kind of they had to their attorney was dodgy Tanya But right now they can't build this project. 4 00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:15.040 They say they're going to get the flood map changed. And I had subsequent emails which I think you were CCD on that um Valerie and Matt Panella both think that they'll probably get the map change. 5 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:31.280 Right now they they have like a building right in the middle of a flood zone where they're not allowed to >> who changes like what's the flood zone map who sponsored the US town 6 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:48.000 >> FEMA thing and there's there's >> there's two processes I forget which one they're going to do to amend it and my understanding of these flood maps. So, first of all, the flood maps are notoriously incorrect. >> Oh, yeah. Right. 7 00:01:48.000 --> 00:02:05.520 >> But, um, my understanding is that there's no real objection to the flood map change that but it's going to take them time to do it. But they have presented you with a project that's not a possible get done. 8 00:02:05.520 --> 00:02:22.879 It their project is an anticipation of the flood map change. So, that's the big issue. I know that the other big issue is what to do with the access to Copper Beach. Although I I can see the writing on the wall. What's going to happen there? Would that either eliminate it or 9 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:39.280 make it emergency only? Probably. But I think we have to decide as a group, are we going to approve it? That would be contingent on them getting the flood map changed and then impose whatever other conditions we're going to impose. 10 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:55.280 And I don't know, we should have that discussion. What else besides the access stuff we want to maybe you had mentioned that it felt a little big in in parts when we had a conversation? >> Yep. >> Um or do we say no, we're going to deny it without prejudice. Come and come back 11 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:10.080 to us when you get your map changed. Oh, I didn't think it would deny without prejudice and then just let it basically would it be a >> such thing as denying without prejudice because it's a denial, but it at least signals to them like, hey, we're willing to 12 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:25.760 consider a project over here, but this ain't it because you can't do it. It's a hypothetical. >> So, we denied it. Would two They have two years to come back. No, there's not a there's not a barrier 13 00:03:25.760 --> 00:03:42.080 for them coming back on under 40b. >> But that was my next that was the second part of my question >> years to get a map. >> But that was my second part of the question. 40B. Could they just bypass us and go right to the state with any >> Well, they can try but >> but if other 40bs come in before them, >> right, we meet our 14 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:57.360 >> it could freeze them out. There could be a a partner >> because they would have to reapply. Now, they may appeal just to try and save their place in the lane, but I've moved to dismiss the appeal. Like this project, >> they don't have a viable. Yeah. 15 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:12.959 >> I mean, it's whether it's a good or bad project or not. And we could also state what some of the other concerns that we have are on it. But if if we went the denial route, I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't, >> right? I I've really all these years in 16 00:04:12.959 --> 00:04:28.880 the hundreds of 40bs I've done, I've seen some pretty brazen uh efforts by applicants, but to propose a project that's not currently possible. >> Well, that was the beginning of this with the water, 17 00:04:28.880 --> 00:04:45.840 >> right? And then the water commission kind of caved on that that we know that from the may have stuff. Um, I do have a it's a random question, but not really. It was asked to me by by a local. If we 18 00:04:45.840 --> 00:05:04.080 deny and or approve this, let's say, then they sit in limbo, what would happen if other things in the area attempted to do? So, perfect example, if we denied it without prejudice, it it is now in its weird this weird defunct area. What in 19 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:20.080 Kingston right now is trying to get permitted to put their their range back, their shooting range back. Are they still going to be number two even though they've been denied? Because they're trying to get their range in and they can't be within 500 ft of any dwelling. 20 00:05:20.080 --> 00:05:37.440 So my so currently they're number two behind this 40B because they can't have the range because they're going to be within 500 feet, >> right? Because if if this project got built first, >> right, then they can't have a shooting range. >> Well, if there's no project, >> well, that's got permitting. 21 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:54.160 >> By the time this project comes around, if there's a problem with the distance, we would probably >> So, they wouldn't clean them into spot number one. >> They don't they don't get to keep a place in line. Yes. I mean, there are some like place saving arguments that you make. They would appeal saying our 22 00:05:54.160 --> 00:06:10.000 place is still there. the the curious thing here and I was kind of racking my brain afterwards. You know, we get our butts kicked all the time under 40B um just because it's a tough permit for for zoning boards. 23 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:25.520 >> But sometimes we fight like we did on May just because we thought it was the right thing to do and here we are how many years later and they still kind of >> closer. Baker Baker A. Same thing like what are you people doing here in that 24 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:41.440 one? They couldn't >> they just couldn't make the drainage work and we said no get out of here. >> They ended up putting one house. >> Yeah. >> So, but I've never seen anyone say like we're building a project but it's contingent on something that the federal 25 00:06:41.440 --> 00:06:58.720 government has to give us that they haven't given us yet. >> But is it >> Oh, >> I just heard you say and I would love to do that. My question is, will they be part of the record, the emails from Matt, the Conservation Commission, and 26 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:16.960 Val saying that they were likely to get it, >> right? But I'm just saying, >> no, no, I I think that's fair. I think that's a word of the record, but it's not a record review. They still have to >> I'm just saying for our purposes we can reasonably 27 00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:33.280 consider that we've heard from our >> you can consider it any way you >> and I know you keep saying I've never heard this and I've never in my experience but I want to just try to focus on 28 00:07:33.280 --> 00:07:50.160 >> you 100% could make a finding. So if you if we wanted to do an approval, we would kind of lay out the facts. They want to do a project based upon something that hasn't happened yet, but is likely to happen. >> So we'll give you a project contingent 29 00:07:50.160 --> 00:08:06.319 upon and you can't do anything until you get that approval. Could you do that? Sure. >> And isn't that their risk? >> That would be a risk on their part. And they came from day one. They came, I don't care, we don't have water. I want 30 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:23.199 to keep putting into this project. >> They they assumed that was from the beginning and they got their wire. >> Um and you know the other I guess the other issue I have with this coming up now is that it was on their plans from 31 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:38.800 the beginning. So I feel like nobody raised it um until the last hearing on March 18. >> It doesn't m to me. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter to me because someone picked up on it. There's so many 32 00:08:38.800 --> 00:08:54.320 details that you don't even pick up on that we have on other 40bs that we've now are done and we haven't picked up on things that are now happening. >> For the purposes of this discussion, I agree with you and it's good that it was raised. I appreciate that. 33 00:08:54.320 --> 00:09:10.480 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, one of the um things here, if you look at it from a strictly legal thing, let's say we deny on the grounds of the the flood plate issue, they appeal to the housing appeals committee. 34 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:25.839 We don't even get to consider whether or not it's likely that they would get the map change. It's a motion to dismiss standard, right? Like you can't do >> you can't do what you're proposing to do because of the flood plane. 35 00:09:25.839 --> 00:09:40.720 I mean, you're you would win. >> We have two people, our designated town employees that we look to for expert advice. 36 00:09:40.720 --> 00:10:00.320 Matt, Panella, and Val have said to us, "Yeah, it's on the map. They're notoriously inaccurate. We think it's likely that they'll get it approved. I mean, I again I I just when 37 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:17.279 I keep coming back around to the thing that we're supposed to consider with due respect, attorney, >> it's not your it's not your vast experience is >> right. You know, I looked at this and it talks about 38 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:31.360 >> go either way. >> Well, we have to balance. We are subject to 40b. >> Well, >> we are I don't see any. >> This is not balancing. This is an issue before we get to balance 39 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:47.600 >> again. But you're sort of I get you're telling us, you know, it's impossible for them to build, you know, >> to deny it. I respectfully disagree. I think we will lose. They wanted us to 40 00:10:47.600 --> 00:11:04.000 vote on a project that did that can't be built. >> It can be built. >> That was their they could have extended the deadline and they can be >> correct. They could have done a lot of things but they >> I only >> the other thing too is only >> I would like to do it as I think is the 41 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:20.399 town's best not look for a way to deny them a permit. I'd like to balance the pros and the cons. This is what we get. This is what we might lose. And I all I'm caring about is >> Well, what do you think? What do you 42 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:36.000 think? What do you think we'll get? >> Cons. I don't see any pros. >> Yeah. What's the pro you? >> They're asking for waiverss on everything and they're giving nothing back to the town or the neighbors. >> They didn't ask them to give you anything back. 43 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:52.240 The way you get something back, you know, is you, you know, you have like working groups. You >> Well, they do that. >> They wouldn't have done that when they first filed. >> That's up to them to do. 44 00:11:52.240 --> 00:12:06.880 >> I don't think that it's always up to them. >> I think it was I think it was you. You or or Bob had said, "Why don't you reach out to the neighbors and get together over >> again? This is almost over. months months in between. 45 00:12:06.880 --> 00:12:24.079 >> I think we get a a large infusion of capital when it comes to their wastewater uh hookup fee. I think that's one thing we get. They have to pay. >> We don't get it. 46 00:12:24.079 --> 00:12:40.800 >> Yeah. It goes >> No, it goes to the sewer department. I the last I looked up the sewer department was part of our town. It's part of our budget. >> No, no, there's no question it helps pay some of the debt service then so that 47 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:56.880 taxpayers may not have to pay all of that. >> It does help in that regard, >> right? So, but let's spin it forward here a little bit. I'm not arguing with you. It's because I think that it's a legitimate position to take if that's what you want to do. But let's >> I'm just one vote. No, no, I get it. 48 00:12:56.880 --> 00:13:13.519 >> It sounds like the the rest of the board would rather go and >> well, no one's taken a boat yet. So, let's say though, because there this isn't this isn't one of those 40bs like may have for example where they put 49 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:28.880 an offer on the table and said, "Well, if you give me this, then I won't seek what I originally tried to do." They want everything. >> Right. Right. So, let's say let's say we denied. Let's say the housing appeals 50 00:13:28.880 --> 00:13:45.279 committee disagrees and says, "Well, I'm going to let them go forward on a conditional basis." Then we're just going forward on a conditional basis based on the original project that they have. Now, we can bake some other stuff into this like the Copper Beach access, 51 00:13:45.279 --> 00:14:00.880 some other things. My guess is we'd get a remand back to the board. So, with a remand, >> I would think so, >> right? because like look, we're willing to consider and make this a good project. Come back and see us when you solve your your flood plane issues. I mean, that 52 00:14:00.880 --> 00:14:15.440 would be the message that that we'd be conveying. So, if we went to the to the um housing appeals committee, that's how I would posture it. >> Again, I just think we can convey the same message. Well, I mean I think that 53 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:32.720 >> keeps it simple and just no pun intended with the flood, but that one item I think >> keeps it simple tonight for that reason >> and like but like you said and then we have other issues but we will discuss those if you come back with the positive 54 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:49.199 flood plan then we tack on top of each road then we tack on the size of it you know the traffic study >> I think you I'm sorry. >> Take a breath. >> Um, so you know then I I think that's 55 00:14:49.199 --> 00:15:05.199 the other time to do it. I mean the other issue what I see is the traffic >> the traffic study sound a little shady. >> It was shady. >> Um I think what's it and the T but you know what's the impact for the MBTA station when the train gets out at 5:00 56 00:15:05.199 --> 00:15:20.880 when you know 50 cars come down the road. To be fair though, there was a traffic study that was done that I didn't see. >> Right. We didn't agree with and the traffic study was only >> There was a traffic study right off the bat, >> but it was only done on Copper Beach Road. It wasn't done >> on >> I still haven't seen 57 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:36.959 >> I don't think and the other little caveat is I don't know how far the building is from the MBTA property, the actual building, not their property, but it's got to be more than 30 feet. And I think it probably is. If it's within 30 feet, then they have to go to the MBTA 58 00:15:36.959 --> 00:15:54.160 and get a special permit that the buildings within the buffer zone for the MBTA tracks. >> But that would be on the plan. >> I don't remember what it was, but I looked into it from the T-side and that's that's their rule. >> You know what I think 59 00:15:54.160 --> 00:16:10.160 with the tell them to prove that it's not there if it's on the drawings? It's on the drawings and I didn't see it. >> He wanted an approval. Okay. Or a decision. And then when we asked him, "Well, what about what was your option?" And he 60 00:16:10.160 --> 00:16:27.600 says, "You're not going to like it." I think he was going to move everything closer to all the neighbors. >> He said we go a three building design. He said >> once he says, "Yeah, okay." You know, could do it. He's going to change the whole design of everything. >> He didn't change from three to two. 61 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:45.040 and and the four stories, three to four stories. So he came out that and in so doing >> he increased uh the setback from Copper Beach, increased the green space that there were a lot of I reviewed our 62 00:16:45.040 --> 00:17:02.000 engineers, you know, feedback on, you know, the the tradeoffs. Yes. he, you know, and this is what you get and there's there's pros and cons. >> I I'm I'm sure this well that was a monetary thing for him, right? 63 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:19.360 >> Again, I just think we infused into our discussions, you know, issues that are not relevant. the the their profit motive is not something >> we never got a pro for and I requested a proform 64 00:17:19.360 --> 00:17:36.160 >> and I think that I think that their profit is very relevant >> for only you have to >> we don't have any say over they apply to and and they they well we get if we get 65 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:52.080 to see they're giving up to 19% profit we can say well we concessions I think what the you did request that I think the concession thing >> I think that's I will defer to attorney tolerant is that relevant >> yeah the proform is very relevant 66 00:17:52.080 --> 00:18:10.000 >> because we got there >> and we could have said hey we want to chop a story off for example right >> and they could say no and then we would say well show us how it impacts your proform we never ask for that information and 67 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:27.360 are you say you asked for it. >> I would like to ask for they don't ever again because everything we asked for >> they gave us. So I'm surprised. >> Oh they gave on the land back that's pennies to for a dollar. Oh we gave you 68 00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:44.400 a little dog. Gave a little play area. >> Before before the last >> before the final meeting I asked >> secretary. Let's just let's just say that and save ourselves a lot and save me the time and trouble and 69 00:18:44.400 --> 00:19:02.160 >> yeah I want to deny it. So I want to deny it based on that but also >> everything else put that you can put all of the factors into the denial >> put in extra bold flood plane issue that'll be you know above the fold so to 70 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:18.320 speak. >> It's density it's traffic it's >> No we got to discuss these things. What are we doing right now? >> Traffic. >> You stop talking. You might be able to hear me. >> Black to deny it based on traffic, but we voted to deny first and now that 71 00:19:18.320 --> 00:19:35.200 we're looking for how we're going to be off. >> We haven't voted anything. We haven't voted >> for discussion. >> We want to deny. >> So, I know we've got Copper Beach. I know we've got the the access to Copper Beach that we don't like. >> Right. Um either way, the fire chief 72 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:50.000 wants that if he could for emergency access. >> Yeah, he's already there. You saw his email after I talked to him. >> He doesn't so he would testify. >> And if they if they go to >> That should be part of the record. >> Yeah, but it's after the hearing closed, 73 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:06.720 >> right? If they go to only access from from the site, >> what's the width of that road? I forget. I mean, that's going to be a two-way street now. >> They narrowed it down. >> They narrowed it down to a oneway, but So, what's the mass do recommendation? Which one? What are you talking about? >> The entrance. 74 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:22.520 >> The entrance. >> Yeah, they It's a 2A. It's a 2A, but they narrowed it down to 20 ft. >> It's like two lane. >> The one to Mar. >> Yeah, it's tight. They shrunk it. I think the problem is they they 75 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:37.760 >> was the wetland that they learned it for, >> I think, >> or something >> also against the the fence of the doggy daycare. Is that right? I don't remember way too close >> and I don't think they own that land yet either. >> They they have a right 76 00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:54.640 >> they had in agreement but I never >> they got from >> Yeah, that's who Mary own. >> She doesn't own it. >> Mary owns that that building and all. >> I believe the property was sold was the >> Well, they have to have the president. 77 00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:11.280 >> I believe the wife got it in court. I think she owns it. I don't think Mary owns it anymore. >> So, >> wife got it in a divorce, I believe. That's what I understood. >> Remember, is the 20 foot one of the the waiverss that they're asking for >> or do you just not think it's wide 78 00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:26.159 enough? I mean, >> they asked for a waiver on it, but it should be wider because if you're going to have they're going to need the ladder truck in there if they want to be at four stories because the alleyways are like tiny behind it. >> And it's got to be two stories because we want to deny all the road exits. 79 00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:42.960 >> Oh, yeah. I I think if we do the denial, we want all these conditions that we want to discuss. Density, height, waiverss from setbacks, which we don't, >> you know, they're they're thinking they could do the same height of the buildings that are up by the mall that are on up by a mall. >> But Marcia, you're saying that we should 80 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:57.280 instead of denying it, you're saying that we should condition it on what we want. >> They're not going to agree to that. They're appeal. >> We've already asked them for all of these things. signal to them what we want. 81 00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:13.440 >> So, but let's think about that for a second though. The way that works, if we condition it by, let's say, reducing the height, increasing the setback, >> widening the road, um getting rid of Copper Beach, and they appeal, 82 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:28.720 they have a substantial chance of success. >> Exactly. Yeah. If we deny on the grounds primarily on the inability of the flood plane issue, then we have a chance to get them back in front of us for if once 83 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:45.840 they get their flood map change where we can kind of reshape the project a little bit. >> You know, with all due respect, I I'm tired of taking the skin down the road and hoping hope is not a plan and hoping something else is going to change. somebody else might come along that we 84 00:22:45.840 --> 00:23:01.600 like better. I mean, we've got a project before us. It's got pros, it's got cons. It's not a perfect project. It's brand new, quite frankly, to this board. Based upon my research, you've had two other 85 00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:17.919 very teeny tiny little 40b >> apartment buildings. You've had a lot of 40b single family developments. >> Guess how they started out. Yeah, >> they started off as these big buildings all grouped together. Then they came 86 00:23:17.919 --> 00:23:32.880 into us and they're like, "How about we spread it out, make it less dense?" They go, >> they were all single family single family. This is >> They changed. They changed it in the middle of the race. >> The mall was not a 40B. 87 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:49.760 >> What are the pros to this? You see, >> you ever looked at how much green space they have, >> Marca? What are the pros? Let me see. You're saying pros? I see taxes, tax base. >> I see the >> Yeah, you need more. You need more stuff to to cover those taxes. You're going to 88 00:23:49.760 --> 00:24:05.600 need more schooling. You're going to need more water. >> I again I I you know listen to the developer and then I do my own research. >> You don't listen to the neighbors, >> the whole entire town of K. >> I don't listen to them. 89 00:24:05.600 --> 00:24:21.279 >> They were the only people. They would prefer, again, I look at that neighborhood's concerns and I say, I would prefer to have a residential use 90 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:39.200 next to me than an industrial use. That is currently zoned industrial. Wait the hell out of me how that happened, but it's residential, industrial, and then the school. To me, it's a great location 91 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:54.320 for an apartment building that would meet a big chunk of our affordable housing. And it I don't think it'll have this horrible impact on our schools. It's 92 00:24:54.320 --> 00:25:11.120 mainly one-bedroom apartments, and there are not many people that live in a one-bedroom apartment. >> Did you see the hotel for a while there? That was only a deficiencies and they had its own stop its own. 93 00:25:11.120 --> 00:25:30.720 >> I know. I know. >> Don't go there. Number one, >> I'm saying those are people going to live in there. >> I don't think there's >> I don't think there's any police. you get out of zoning when you show me some 94 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:47.279 >> just because >> land in Kingston that >> we have to build affordable high density housing >> Sacred Heart. >> No, you can't build that >> boy camp behind next to us. >> Sacred Heart. >> Sacred Heart plenty of huge room out 95 00:25:47.279 --> 00:26:04.640 there. >> 20 acres out there. 30 acres. >> It's done. They want to do another one. >> Four. He fell through. It's not hope is not a plan. We have a development in front of us. All right. 96 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:19.200 >> It's a poorly designed development. Poorly poorly. Poorly >> things that you >> So, Marca, um I guess a question for you. >> Frustrated. >> I know. I get it. >> And you're so what would you what 97 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:37.760 changes would you make to the project? What would what conditions would I attach? Do you want to talk about that? I mean, I don't mean >> still part of what we're trying to do. >> There should be a dialogue. We've just sort of debated the school issue. I don't think the school issue is 98 00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:54.480 >> No, no, that's not part of my condition. >> Prove it as is. >> You know, I there I would go back over Pat Brennan's recommendations, you know, on what he said. These are the waiverss, you know, >> our engineer. engineer. 99 00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:10.720 >> No, I I would take a real hard look at that. >> One of his biggest ones was setbacks. >> Uh, >> guess what happens if we if we do the setbacks? >> Did you have no parking butt up into the town's property right in the middle? 100 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:27.840 >> If you want to increase the setbacks, >> increase put them back to what they are. >> Yeah. Right. >> They're asking for a waiver. Why do we have to bend backwards to make them >> set backs? you you they want us to decrease here's their new apartment bill 101 00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:45.120 and and here's their drive and they want this set back reduced so they can maintain a very big setback from Copper Beach right up on >> we own a piece of land in the middle and they want to put the parking right against it 102 00:27:45.120 --> 00:28:02.080 >> the setbacks are going to affect the people who live where they this building >> right only red >> only and the reason they did that okay was to minimize the impact on 103 00:28:02.080 --> 00:28:16.799 copper be >> I doubt that I doubt >> that's what Pep Brennan said read the >> that's what he told that's what they told him >> he he has to he has to review what they teach him so his his his output is their 104 00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:33.279 inputs from them and outputs >> he didn't come to that he didn't come to that conclusion on his diminish Pat's review. >> Oh, I never diminish his review at all. >> She's just regurgitating. >> He's not regurgitating. He's only looking >> He's trying to be objective. Yes. This is why they did this 105 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:49.679 >> and this is the benefit >> and this is the detriment. And you benefit is to the people who live there. All right. And that's one of the things we have to think about. Does it really affect those people's public health 106 00:28:49.679 --> 00:29:05.679 safety and welfare? Are they really adversely impacted by having reduced setbacks or are they more benefited by having affordable housing? It's kind of well >> there's only going to be a little bit 107 00:29:05.679 --> 00:29:21.279 out of 168 units I think there's >> 100% of them are >> are counted but they're not affordable, >> right? So 30 of them will be 30 right >> project itself. Why are you so like you have 108 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:37.960 >> only 30 of them will be affordable. >> I just want talking about like every yes I mean you want this >> I want I think this project >> why does it have to be a yes at 160 unit why >> doesn't have to 109 00:29:38.159 --> 00:29:54.240 think it's a good spot. I think it's a great >> I don't think I think Papa Beach Drive is a deal killer as far as I'm concerned. I don't think it's bad to neighborhood. I don't think it's I think the impact >> on that area is not it's not it's not right. 110 00:29:54.240 --> 00:30:10.480 It's not right to have that road go through there. >> It was all on Marian Drive. That's one thing. It's right near the tea. It's going to be sort of focused towards people that take public transportation. That type of Yeah, that's fine. But when you dump that into a neighborhood which 111 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:27.520 has very difficult access as it is >> and I don't mind >> and then dumps into a into a into a a set of lights that's already disaster >> and then they come through and they dump through the elementary school and jump 112 00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:43.840 up over the rest of the town's the rest of the town's going to use that to get to get to the dumps >> I have to defer to experts we hired To me, >> to me, the experts are the people that have lived there for 25 years and live 113 00:30:43.840 --> 00:31:00.399 it every single day. >> Eliminating that that road, reducing the size of the project, then maybe there's something there you could work on. >> Exactly. But they don't want to they don't want to change the because the 114 00:31:00.399 --> 00:31:14.880 huge >> flat out no I'm not square that road. But eliminating that road too will create a ton of traffic on merit like that that's already >> I haven't taken in a long time. 115 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:32.720 >> It does impact copper because the other impact lane which is where I don't it's going to impact the whole town because people are going to cut through beach to get to the trains to get to the dump. >> That's why they closed the tea. 116 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:48.960 >> Yes. And then you go to the dump. It saves you from going up Smith Road and all that stuff. It's going to go through that is it does. >> There's no way to get to Copper Beach. >> It's only out. >> They go down. They have to cut through that. >> They won't stay open. 117 00:31:48.960 --> 00:32:04.559 >> So, so perfect example to that. Not not whatever the new development they put in between Witz and 106. 27 106. That little road they put in plenty. >> No one will ever cut through there. Who would ever cut through there? >> We all knew that. that prevents. 118 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:20.480 >> No, but a million people cut through it now. >> I use it. >> Yeah, the fire department uses it. And that's why they had put a table top in there to try to slow everybody down. Guess what it doesn't do? It just makes a buck and everyone does a hundred and it's a private area. 119 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:36.880 >> Only go. >> Who's going to be in charge and maintain the gate? >> They will be. >> Who's they have to be the owners of this >> development? We have a 40B that has a bridge problem because no one knew >> just like the golf course problem. >> Yeah. >> Couldn't, should have, would it? Okay. 120 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:53.440 You had a You learn from your mistakes. What conditions? How do you have to condition? >> How do you condition it? You're not compelling somebody to do something. >> Well, it's >> there's lawsuits filed in in in these neighborhoods because of the roads. 121 00:32:53.440 --> 00:33:09.360 as a >> Indian farm is a >> Indian farm's a great example bringing up the fact >> the owner needs to do it the owners in this >> Indian Pond aren't doing >> again this is going to be this is a 122 00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:25.600 single development okay it's not Indian Pond where it was those roads those lots were sold off that >> I'm talking about the one off of Gro Street that is a 40B And they're having problems with the roads and the lights bridge. 123 00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:42.799 >> Is that >> theirs? Because they're not doing it. >> But >> all he claims it's still under construction because the they built they one private they don't come through. >> Yeah. So back to my original question Marsha what conditions 124 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:57.760 talk a good story but they may not follow. >> What conditions are you proposing here? Oh, again I I I I don't >> Well, we're here today to discuss it. So, you need to know >> this position. You're We're at the We're at >> You're the one that's trying to 125 00:33:57.760 --> 00:34:13.679 I'm only one vote. So, give us a gentleman want to just vote to deny it to make that motion. >> There needs to be more than just >> So, would you not Well, would you approve it essentially as is? >> No, I would approve it with conditions. Give me 126 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:28.960 >> I would not You know what? I think you people are being really disenuous. >> I would not I do not object to the density. >> I don't think so. No reduction in the What about >> I So again, you're asking I wouldn't 127 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:46.000 condition the setback. >> I don't have a problem with the setback. >> What about the access to copper beans? >> I don't have a problem with that. >> So you don't have a problem with anything they designed. >> I don't have a problem with that. If you have issues that you want to address, I'm saying I don't have a problem with 128 00:34:46.000 --> 00:35:01.040 it. >> Okay. >> I don't. >> You just said that you would condition it. >> I'm saying you don't have a single condition in >> favor of approving it. >> If you feel that things need to be addressed in the plans as they're 129 00:35:01.040 --> 00:35:16.000 proposed, as I said to you, the hundredyear flood plan, developers risk. I don't know why we keep putting ourselves in the place of a developer, but that's a risk that they have to 130 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:34.079 take. We condition it on them getting the flood map changed. Our our town personnel seem to think that's likely to happen. If that's a valid >> I'm going to hold you for one little second. I want you to continue. Let's 131 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:50.880 say we do that and two years goes by. He's gone. I happen to be gone. Bob might be gone. Might be two people left. Dave might be on or three years the whole board has changed. They then come back in front and go, "Well, you guys approved it under these conditions. We 132 00:35:50.880 --> 00:36:05.760 finally made it." And they go, "Oh, well, >> oh, they must have approved it back then because they knew all the facts." >> And then all of a sudden it goes exactly the way they want because all they did was wait the board out. It flushed out >> and then that's happened to us. 133 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:24.880 >> And it's happened to us. Why haven't we denied any like support? >> I don't know why you're so Paul. I appreciate your concerns and I'm sorry that that you feel like that happened. >> It has happened a feel. >> And then I guess I would say shame on 134 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:42.000 whoever was advising us for letting them get away with that. If what you say is so black and white, so clear that we, you, the town got bamboozled by a developer, then shame on the town. Shame on whoever we were relying upon to 135 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:58.079 advise us. >> And that's what we're discussing right now, you making point. >> All right. So, shame on I don't know. I'm not advising you. I'm telling you how I feel about this project and saying to you, I don't have a big problem with 136 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:14.880 the density. They reduced the density. I don't have a big problem with the >> but no, they made the density. >> Let's do a hand vote just for the heck of it on what we've brought up already. >> What do we Who doesn't like the size of the density? >> Okay, the density, 137 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:29.920 >> right? Who doesn't like the access to cop road? >> I don't like it, but they need it for something of size. They're going to have to have something for emergency. >> Who wants to have them do a better traffic study that includes >> Marian Marian Drive? 138 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:45.599 >> Again, I just don't think we can study on it. >> I I am too. So, so these these are the issues that >> we have brought up >> and and and you and we said we seem to have come to an agreement on it. Again, 139 00:37:45.599 --> 00:38:01.440 not without voting, but we seem to kind of be on the same page. So, at one point, we can go down this road forever and talk about it, but I've basically had enough of it, and I'm ready to put 140 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:18.079 together a proposal on what we tell them. And with the flood plan, and I just think uh the advice that I'm asking the attorney is we say, okay, flood plan, bold letters. 141 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:34.800 Do we also in that conclusion put all the other items we don't like? But if if the state says once the flood plan's good, it gets approved. I mean like I like the wording of now you have 142 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:49.119 to go back. I don't know. I don't know if that's a law. >> Argue to have it come back for for that consideration. >> That's that's the way I look at it and that's the way I'd vote. See, >> can I ask you respectfully? What is the problem with the density? Well, you say I don't like the density. 143 00:38:49.119 --> 00:39:06.480 >> Too many people in a small space. >> I had one I had one issue with density. Now, they said that they would increase the green space, which I thought was great because I think they need to have more green. >> But by doing that, if they changed the landscape, they said they reduce the 144 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:24.160 amount of areas for snow. >> Correct. >> Now, we just had No, that's a big deal now. >> Yeah. People aren't ready to take that video. >> And if they had had that up there by their own confession, they would need to pay to remove snow 145 00:39:24.160 --> 00:39:39.760 >> and have it removed off site >> your money. >> That is their problem. >> No, it isn't their problem. >> Our problem. >> It's a big It's a big problem. I I mean I I know you got remove soap. He is It's a huge problem when you have to reload. >> I get it. 146 00:39:39.760 --> 00:40:03.839 >> And the owner's gonna say, "I'm not going to remove it. It'll melt." No, they'll put it right into the Kingston hole in the middle. >> Issue part of it's part of the whole >> it's part of the whole thing. >> You have to think of the people that are living there. >> 10 pounds of 5B bag. So what you're 147 00:40:03.839 --> 00:40:21.359 concerned >> the site like you're not really concerned about the density because it could be a tall building with the same big the the word density is probably the wrong word by definition under 148 00:40:21.359 --> 00:40:41.200 the amount of people you're also >> the Atlant the improvement ratio on the land that they are available available to use. >> Yeah. >> In other words, they have >> 10 acres, but they can only use two of them. 149 00:40:41.200 --> 00:40:56.480 >> The land to population land is so poor. >> Yeah. >> To dump it in. So the question is, so they're trying to stuff every corner. Absolutely. They're going to stuff every corner >> rather than reduce the size or the amount of people, 150 00:40:56.480 --> 00:41:12.000 the amount of housing they have now. So, it's no different than my lot on my in my yard where I want to say, "Well, I want I have a 10,000 square foot lot. I want to build 8,000 square foot." >> Would the zoning board approve that? They wouldn't approve that. 151 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:27.920 >> I think the developer already answered the density. That's why >> again, density is a word. That's amount of people per land per acre. Amount of people per space. >> That it's 14 units per acre. 152 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:44.000 >> Again, But it's not But it's not. >> Eight of his acres are unusable. >> Why he doesn't want to That's why he doesn't want to go out there. >> issues. But >> see, that's a different issue because that's that's sort of a you're getting wrapped up in the semantics of I've got 10 acres, I can only use two. So 153 00:41:44.000 --> 00:42:00.000 therefore, I can max out my density is what he's doing. >> That's what he's doing. He's just 10 acres. He doesn't have 10 acres of buildable land to put housing on. He's got two acres of land in 10 acres and he's using that math. So yes, he's 154 00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:16.560 cramming a ton of stuff into one small acre and >> he has to recreate every single >> I am not opposed to 40B. I am the town needs it. There's no question about it. And that apartment complex 440B would be a great way to go because that gets us a 155 00:42:16.560 --> 00:42:32.160 long way down. >> One building would this is this does it have to be Paul in this one particular project. >> Would story building be okay without a dress or no storage? >> No, it wouldn't be. It's not going to use 156 00:42:32.160 --> 00:42:49.680 >> we can't >> problem is we don't like the we don't like the >> Again, I'm just >> I don't care about the word density. I we we all know what we mean. If if the word density comes up, we all know special meaning English class >> and I appreciate that. 157 00:42:49.680 --> 00:43:06.800 >> What about the cup and you don't care about the cub of each road access? >> I don't I don't it's not that you don't care about it. I don't think that the traffic studies that we've had done and we had our own study done and had their 158 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:22.000 >> we didn't do the study. We did a study that was given to us. that if we had a study there review what about the impact for the people who live on top of each road it's >> you don't care >> it's one way out >> in the elementary school 159 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:38.000 >> you know I live on a road that I have tons of fruit through traffic tons >> me too why I don't walk my road because my kids will be killed we don't even have a sidewalk we don't have a we don't even have 160 00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:55.760 >> short time So, I know how all of those things I experience that day to day as you do, but I don't think that is a good enough reason. >> You would have co you would have access 161 00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:11.200 in and out on Copper Beach or just >> I don't think just the one way out. That's all I would have. >> The only reason he wants it is so he could sell his apartments for a higher price. That's it. I >> you've got to go to like school traffic 162 00:44:11.200 --> 00:44:28.400 >> those mornings and and can't make poor >> we can't add to it either. Yeah. >> Asking them to say >> they want to add on to it. I don't know why we hired these guys, 163 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:46.240 but we hired our own traffic engineer to do a peer review study. >> A study from >> No, it was one they just did in 2025. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. In the summer. >> And that was not during school. >> But I'm just saying we we had our own 164 00:44:46.240 --> 00:45:02.160 guy did our own study. So if you just don't want to put >> the problem with what he says is if you have an F >> F minus doesn't matter. It's already failing. You don't have to put it anymore. You can say F minus minus. It's still going to be failing. So that's what they were saying. It's already 165 00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:17.359 failed. So like adding more cars isn't going to do anything more, but just degrade it more. >> I think >> I think we need to move forward with >> Yes. >> However you want to go forward. >> I So I want to ask Mr. Talon if we do do 166 00:45:17.359 --> 00:45:33.760 a denial that on the flood plane if there's and the only reason I'm asking this is so we deny it anything that comes down the pike in that time limit can be done where there's no holding a position 167 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:50.079 >> while they're appealing they're probably holding their place in line >> and that's what I'm trying to figure out because there there other projects that want to go in on the other side of the streets by the tea that are very big that the town is trying to figure out what to do about. >> Oh, you're talking about the cash 168 00:45:50.079 --> 00:46:08.880 transfer station. >> Well, most of that will be on the highway. >> That's what that's going to happen eventually, but pretty quick. >> Yeah, because we'd be seeking a motion. >> Yeah. >> And the only because there's no facts in 169 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:25.760 dispute on the They can't dispute that they're in the flood plane. Well, the only thing I like about doing that is if they appeal it, the court's going to kick it back to us. >> That's what I want to >> and then it comes back to us for sure. >> Then they come back as a reset saying 170 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:44.240 you're coming back at a zero time >> have to come back something different because they have to move the building or get the plane >> or wait it out or something like that. Um because I want if it comes back and the board has changed, I want the new board or whoever is here to be ready as a new 171 00:46:44.240 --> 00:46:59.920 set. >> Well, that's why I think you should be as specific as you can in your denial. >> Exactly. That's why I want >> That's all I'm trying to get you guys to anecdotally. One of the things that's always surprised me has surprised me over the last few weeks 172 00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:15.680 is I know Rick Lincoln pretty well because he does a lot of work in the town of East where we've been council for years and I know his his council too not Tanya as much but her boss they're not fighters they don't want to fight. So I think they would always be at that. 173 00:47:15.680 --> 00:47:31.359 So if we look at like Mayab as an example be like okay we're going to go to war over this flood plane issue. How do you guys want to do it? Do you guys want to, you know, so you negotiate remands and and the process, you know, 174 00:47:31.359 --> 00:47:47.520 kind of wind its way through where we use our leverage with the time that it takes to litigate to get them to kind of do the right thing, >> right? I think I think what it is, this is a project he's hoping to slate within the four to five year mark. He's looking 175 00:47:47.520 --> 00:48:03.200 to finish up whatever he has coming down. He has to, you know, get this hail Mary go on it on its, you know, way because in five years that's his next project. >> Yeah. He doesn't have so many projects in the pipeline. It's not like Avalon or something like that where he can be spending. 176 00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:19.440 >> That's why he's speeding up the process. >> $100,000 on litigation while waiting this thing out. Right. >> If I were him, I'd agree like, "Okay, let's do a stay. Let me go get my flood map changed." >> Well, you gave him that option. 177 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:35.680 He didn't want to do it. Well, he was very quiet about it. You know, >> I think, like I said, he's just trying to get this litigation ball rolling, >> knowing that it's going to be probably two, three year period >> for him. Then then he can >> come back and hopefully he can get it and say, "All right, I'll cut it in 178 00:48:35.680 --> 00:48:52.800 half. I already I'm being nice." And then he gets basically what he really wanted was it cut in half anyways. You shoot the moon, get cut in half, he he wins. Yeah, I >> think he's holding that cup of beach access road as as a Trump code. Yeah, he'd give up Copper Beach in the heartbeat. He's not tied to Copper 179 00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:07.760 Beach. He adamantly said no. No, like he just like Well, I like a spoiled >> add a truck mean stuff, >> right? No. And that's fine. We would have do it as a gated Nox box emergency 180 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:23.599 access. That's fine. We do that kind of stuff. >> That's okay. I'm not worried about the Copper Beach thing. If that was the only thing we did and we approved a project subject to losing Copper Beach, you would take that in a heartbeat and run with it. But even if we did 181 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:38.960 something like, okay, we want to get uh have you take a few more units, you'd probably accept that, too, >> right? >> But then we're just, you know, we're throwing darts at it a little bit there. You know, my way of thinking about this a little bit, I'm not trying to create 182 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:55.440 more work for myself or put you all in a bad spot, is this is they literally cannot do the project they're proposing. >> It's designed. Correct. >> Right. >> So, to me, that would be I don't even know how they got past go here. >> I don't either. We look really foolish. 183 00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:12.000 We're now denying it what four years later. Well, they kept the plan so tiny that instead of big layout see split all up and then oh would say it's like the walkway over the school. Oh no cares when it came up. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The key is they hit 184 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:27.599 us with so many details that you they try to smoke you >> engineer. We were we were all there and you were on on Zoom but we were all there right and I asked the question she couldn't say no to >> and what they didn't show they oh we changed this we changed that. Like I 185 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:43.359 said, when in construction, when you make a change, you look at the bottom of the page and it's a little delta, a little triangle. One, two. All the changes that get made when the next set of plans come out, if you have all these 186 00:50:43.359 --> 00:50:58.240 buildings and you're adding something here, they cloud it, put a little one there, the delta, and you know what it is. So, you know when the changes are made. on the final set of plans that you get, you understand what was original and 187 00:50:58.240 --> 00:51:13.920 what is the end and how they kept to that point. They didn't do that as far as I'm concerned. They oh yeah, it's there. Oh, we're going to do that. Like it was kind of like don't look be don't look the man behind the curtain because I'm just telling you he's there. >> Well, what if what if we did this as an exercise? 188 00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:30.240 What if I have some feedback from from y'all and we can keep coming with the feedback to what if I drafted a denial and we got a time together where we could do we don't even have to meet in person although we can. I'm happy to. Our deadline is April 27th. What if I 189 00:51:30.240 --> 00:51:45.839 drafted a denial so we see what it looks like? I'll add some stuff in. Paul and I talk all the time, so I can always bounce some ideas off of him and we get back together either in person or by Zoom and see what it looks like. And if we say, "Yeah, I don't want to take the 190 00:51:45.839 --> 00:52:02.559 risk. Let's switch over to some kind of approval." Fine. We could do that, too. Just knowing that, you know, we have we're on a clock. >> I don't see any possible way that I would approach this. That's just me. Well, like I said, doing a denial, but 191 00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:19.680 we have to speak of what conditions we want to put on top of the denial. So that we have it's not conditions dial based on >> right exactly the finding that you say >> and then you just say the big one is obviously the map >> right >> I know that copper be the density the 192 00:52:19.680 --> 00:52:36.400 setbacks the height the >> the road there are no conditions >> I don't you can condition it all if we approved it with conditions they would just appeal to win right >> on appeal >> right yeah no this is just bindings and supportive denial. 193 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:52.079 >> I'm denying it based on everything because they did not come back and say that they would do anything, >> right? >> So, if I thought that they would accept the conditions, >> then yeah, I would I would approve it with conditions, but they're not going to accept the conditions. 194 00:52:52.079 --> 00:53:08.079 >> They would not negotiate. They wouldn't talk to the neighbors. They wouldn't do anything. >> I think you misread them on that. I will just say from my perspective, I think they just were weary of it us just >> they could have done that from the beginning. 195 00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:23.520 >> So they're not weary. This is this is what they do for a living. >> That's how I not that they were trying to be >> I assume because I the only hearing that I attended was the last I assume that >> along the way people were saying >> neighbors. >> Yeah. 196 00:53:23.520 --> 00:53:40.720 >> January this is this is a lot of project on a saw the whole neighborhood cover beach road show. >> Yeah. >> And that's why we and that's why the zoning board puts out that 100 yard map of where the project's going to be so people know it's coming. >> You know, nine times out of 10 you do 197 00:53:40.720 --> 00:53:59.359 something other or anywhere else, no one has a problem. >> I had an email after the last session. Let me see. From D. >> Are you leaving? >> Are you leaving? I'm just getting ready to leave. Aren't we gonna make a motion? 198 00:53:59.359 --> 00:54:18.400 >> Oh, yeah. >> No, no, no, no, no. >> I just texted my husband sleeping seven. >> I I have a problem with seven problem with the whole D thing. >> Yeah. Well, that too. But >> well, yeah, I wrote down flood zone 199 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:32.880 number one >> density, but density can be fixed by height height being a problem, setback being a problem. And then I mean we could even go and say there's no green space but I guess there's a little bit 200 00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:50.800 >> just many units many people in a small area >> call the beach road traffic another traffic I'm not not happy >> yeah emergency access >> I think the snow removal is also a huge issue 201 00:54:50.800 --> 00:55:06.480 >> I think snow removal is very big >> Matt Matt Panella after the meeting did express some frustration Paul you're on this email too because I raised this issue and asked what their thoughts were. He said I sent a letter to the ZBA on this on I don't 202 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:26.079 understand why they wouldn't have already filed for the map change they received in ORAD from the concom >> applicants um and it and it even said welcome them to to do the map change. They didn't 203 00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:42.319 um and they also wanted to know whether the depression containing the mapped zone A which is that kind of oblong thing right in the middle which is where it is >> meets the criteria rather for isolated land subject to flooding. They've had three years to address it. They haven't 204 00:55:42.319 --> 00:55:57.200 >> right. >> So I don't think they were going to put any money into anything unless they were in a position where they were going to be making they're going to burn the minimum until it's a go. which I think is is a smart thing until 205 00:55:57.200 --> 00:56:12.000 you get caught. >> That's what developers do. They really do. They need they have to have >> I don't know if only sell home owns the property or not contingent upon >> I think they're all contingent. I think they're all that contingent. And then Val actually commented, 206 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:28.640 "I agree with Matt that the MAP amendment um uh can easily be obtained by filing the paperwork through a professional professional land survey or on the FEMA portal if they can if they can demonstrate that there uh that it isn't 207 00:56:28.640 --> 00:56:43.200 there anymore. It's usually through an elevation certificate in some map. Today, they've not demonstrated that it isn't there to anyone. And for for all we know, it is still a wetland through groundwater. So it it could even be 208 00:56:43.200 --> 00:57:00.720 >> pine flat uh uh flood plane, but it could be some kind of actual wetland that would still be jurisdictional. >> I think that's why they were hoping to get in there because it's the land's not flat. The land is super high in the front. >> Oh god. which they're going to have to take off tens of thousands of cubic 209 00:57:00.720 --> 00:57:17.599 yards. And they're hoping to take it and push it right into the low area and then go, "Well, the wetland's not the wetland. Look, it's an upland. >> All we did was take the top off when they're really just going to shove it left." >> Yeah. >> Which is, like I said, as a developer, that's a way to you got to shave the 210 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:39.040 pennies to make it all work. So, do you want to I like that idea of the letter. >> It sometimes helps to just see it. >> Yeah. >> And >> so, I want this to end. I just I'm sick of talking about this. >> Do we prefer to get back together in 211 00:57:39.040 --> 00:57:54.720 person or do we comfortable doing it in a Zoom where this is kind of a >> That's my opinion. >> No, no, that's fine. I I'm gonna want to do that >> soon. Like a week. Yeah. >> Before the deadline, >> right? And not that I not that I want to 212 00:57:54.720 --> 00:58:10.280 spend my free time talking. >> No, I I get it. I'm trying to be as flexible as I can. >> We might be able to piggyback it onto a meeting. >> When's your next meeting? >> You have it before. >> Yeah. I I'm not 213 00:58:12.160 --> 00:58:28.559 going to commit. Uh >> our next meeting is a leave. I don't know. >> The 15th is our next meeting. I don't know if anything >> and then after that it'll be the 6th of May. >> Well, we have a deadline of what? >> The 20. Oh, I wrote that down. 214 00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:43.359 >> 27th. >> 27th of May of April. >> So, we have a meeting on the 15th. >> Yeah, we don't have much time. >> All right. So, it's going to be an off meeting time >> and then they >> and I'm out of town for school. How are 215 00:58:43.359 --> 00:58:59.200 people 18? >> April 20th. That That's the school week. Yeah. I forgot. I might not be around. >> Everyone's like crap. >> I'm really The 25th is Memorial Day. >> What about the >> No, you're in >> You're in May. 216 00:58:59.200 --> 00:59:15.040 >> Oh, I'm sorry. What about >> I can zoom in. >> What about the 16th? That's a week. I >> was going to say >> the Thursday. >> I could draft something by then. >> Oh, I bet I have a thin copy. I think if it's April, I'm probably get close to my my retirement date or something. 217 00:59:15.040 --> 00:59:31.599 >> My mind's in April. >> 16 or 17. I mean, I don't >> 17th is a Friday. >> Yeah. Which I don't like wasting. 15th you can do Wednesday. >> I cannot do 13th, 14th, 15th. I'm booked. >> All right. >> 16th I am available. So that's next >> 16th with some people and zoom. Some 218 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:46.559 people can zoom in. >> I don't know if I can do it on the 16th. >> Yeah. >> Well, fin's when? What time's fin at? Well, I got to move on to Thursday because >> about the 20th Monday. >> And what time you can come meet seven? >> 6:30. 219 00:59:46.559 --> 01:00:03.599 >> It's not available this morning >> or the 21st or the shot. >> Can we do a Could we do a Zoom meeting then? >> Would that be easier for meeting? >> Um the 16th I can do, but it would have to be like seven. 220 01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:20.000 >> That's fine. >> Oh, what day? Thursday. >> Well, all we'll be doing is Well, you don't >> So, I could >> I don't need to do I need to even be a >> Yeah, he can circulate. I can He can 221 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:34.240 email it. I can send it to everybody >> deliberate as a group. >> I don't think I need to. Yeah, I don't >> I'm gonna go with what you're >> circulating. I mean, I'm not gonna have much comment. >> So, why don't we just the 16th and six? 222 01:00:34.240 --> 01:00:51.359 She's going to be at fin at 6 6:30. So if we're here at 6:00 or 5:45 >> if it's at 6, I can try. I I'm in >> 5:30 depending on traffic. I don't know when I'll get back. >> So it's just too >> Or you can just call in like I did. 223 01:00:51.359 --> 01:01:08.079 >> Were you? >> I will. You can. >> I It may be a little short just because God >> it might be >> a lot. >> I got a lot. It's town. I have a big due on Monday. I've got a town meeting on Saturday. Meetings Monday, Tuesday, 224 01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:26.880 Wednesday night. But I'll get it done. I mean, this is much easier to draft than >> a um so the 16th at 6. >> Yeah. >> And you have a meeting at 6:30, right? >> Okay. >> But we'll already have seen the drafts hopefully. 225 01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:45.760 >> Yes. We'll get you the draft by the 15th latest. Okay. >> Will you send me a um a Zoom link or a number or I would just call you? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We have to um notice it, right? Our deliberations. 226 01:01:45.760 --> 01:02:01.920 >> You just have to have it have it be an agenda. >> You have a Zoom link on that. >> Yeah, there will be a Zoom link. Then you can call in. >> Okay. >> That's what I did. >> Okay. >> I didn't wait. I can I can have uh >> this room or have Yes. 227 01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:17.440 >> We don't know what's available. >> It's upstairs, right? >> Oh, it's FinCom the same day. Well, if we're done, you can do it up there. >> Come's upstairs, right? >> Right. >> Yeah, this is fine. >> This is fine. No one's going to come. So, >> what was I doing? >> Yeah. I mean, let's let's let's reserve 228 01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:32.480 this room or whoever does that. >> I'll talk to Jeie. She's away this week. She'll be back for Tuesday. >> Meet at my house. That would be who >> that'd be very nice to be >> so everybody shows up and go see what's 229 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:49.440 going on. It's a nice day. We'll go to the backyard like the grill. >> You have the reasons for the tooth not so >> some of it's going to be a little on the rough side but on because I want to add a little teeth to it but on the um certainly on the flood plane. Okay. 230 01:02:49.440 --> 01:03:05.839 >> And then Jeie can help me with some of the details on just the what is you know the the history the hearing schedule all that stuff. >> Yeah. Because they're going to instantly appeal. >> It's just a review. >> So I don't think you want to say stuff that's missing or >> we don't need the like if you can't get 231 01:03:05.839 --> 01:03:21.200 all that by the 16th that's fine. >> That's true. So just >> the narrative part. Yeah. Because then we'll have 11 days left. >> Yeah. You need the answer. It's just the the rationale for doing what we're doing. >> Yeah. You do the bullet point issue 232 01:03:21.200 --> 01:03:37.920 instead of a whole letter the whole just even bullet point issues and >> I think that would be fine. >> Do we email you our bots or we have to do a >> No, you can't that deliberation. I that's I I think I have a sense of it and Paul and I have been talking throughout so I kind of 233 01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:54.319 >> like I said they're I'm just making sure so I'm putting the scenario in my head. They're going to instantly appeal it or as soon as they can which was then HC might be a year out which could be remanded within >> when did we start HAC from AF 234 01:03:54.319 --> 01:04:09.440 >> four years. >> Yeah. >> And we're now in just in the superior court. So, I'm not worried about that if and their attorney is a smart attorney, Walter, not Tanya so much. But he's gonna say they gonna punish you with 235 01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:25.839 time, >> right? >> But then they'll come back and I'm just hoping that when they do remand back and my because my fear is >> maybe they might just dismiss it. I mean, to me it's dismissible. >> I'm just making sure there's some sort of reset there. So if it if they do try to go after this again and we have new 236 01:04:25.839 --> 01:04:43.760 sets of eyes on it, the eyes can still pick up kind of what's going on. >> That's what happened to Indian Pawn and they got lost in the shuffle. >> Well, there's a whole bunch of bad things that happened with Indian Pawn. As someone who knows that 237 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:57.720 >> was the real CB the real >> All right. All right. >> Are we done? >> Um motion to adjurnn. >> Yeah. >> Someone make it. >> I make a motion to adjurnn. >> I got a second. Second. All in >> favor. I thank you.