##VIDEO ID:AK8JPu-Hl20## good evening and welcome to the Thursday January 30th 2025 meeting of the Lakeville planning board we are meeting this evening at the Lakeville Public Library at 4 Precinct Street it is 7:02 p.m. and we have a full Quorum of the planning board Lake cam is recording for the record is anyone else hearing none I will turn it over to the Board of Health to open their meeting it is 7:02 on January 30th um I'd like to uh call the select board um meeting of January 30th um to order at 7:02 p.m. all right um if we can start at Kathy and go around the room and just introduce for everyone uh Kathy muray planning board Nancy dery Tom planner Jack to plan Dan wilga planning board John cabraal planning board Michelle McAn planning board David Lodge planning board David open space committee chairman Chris BR B of Health Robert B of Health Building Commissioner line Carboni L full select board BR D who select candy select Andrew administrator and one more we we just um opened all the meetings so and we're just so D good so uh the reason that we are meeting this evening was is because um on December 26 2024 we had a joint meeting meeting with various um departments boards Etc and we solicited input regarding a conceptual osrd plan uh that was submitted uh for the rocky Woods location and we discussed some feedback we sent it out to all those boards committees Etc um for further feedback as well as resident feedback and then on uh January 9th we met and the planning board met to compile the feedback received and we composed a letter to the developer team uh the letter has been circulated and this meeting is to prepare a response in to a response to that letter so whatever that response may be we have not received a response from the developer at this time um so the developer had submitted a conceptual osrd and um the Board of Health was actually the first to make mention that it um it was not actually an osrd that was presented and when I say osrd an open space residential development uh plan which is supposed to only allow for the same number of units that could be built under concept A a conventional uh subdivision plan so um we compiled that along with other comments to send back to the developer um in in order to bring an osrd to town meeting we would first like to see an actual osrd uh showing no more units than what could be built conventionally um the developer has communicated through Nate darling the Building Commissioner saying that they're preparing a response but we haven't gotten a response yet um so they could come back with an osrd plan showing a lesser number of units on the um parcel of land or they could come back with another plan this maybe not an osrd plan um or the other option uh that was thrown out there in response to what the open space had um submitted was the option to purchase um obviously planning board would not be involved in any sort of purchase or negotiation but it was to throw that option out because it is one of our largest priority protection parcels open space um committee did recommend that um comment to be sent back um also if if an acceptable osrd should be submitted then the developer would expect to form a development agreement with the town which would also has to go through the select board so that's another reason to have this joint meeting and kind of fielded you know what it is expected you know if or when they come back with some a revised plan um so at at this point I guess I'm willing to you know hear what anybody else has for feedback regarding the letter or um you know what what you think is a good response or a bad response because as we we I think Board of Health was kind of on the same page with planning board that you know what they had submitted was not really an osrd can I let me just St because I've always been for um cluster zoning okay that lot has been trying to get parked for my daughter was four when Jean botler tried parking it it's all ledge most of it's not buildable that's why it was for sale for the last 20 years 30 years it's not other developers anybody in this area knows that that's all ledge and the numbers don't work so maybe as a warehouse the original intention distribution it would have been a good you know would have worked the numbers but now they came back open space if you get credit for the original plan I think he's somewhere in the 60s how much New Lots he can conventionally fit okay but you know they don't want to I believe attorney MAA said that they are not going to even do one perk for each one of those lots the reason they're not willing to do even one perk in every lot is because they know most of them won't Park so so in the few past I've heard the most people have figured out ways to squeeze in there is probably about 30 houses if they're lucky okay then they come back and they come up with this this I don't even know why Town Council is letting it get this far cuz now this is only one property this is spot zoning this isn't even even a a cluster zone or or anything this is spot Zoning for one piece of property so let me just let me just interject there because that was a question that was posed to Town Council January 9th she was with us and she said that it would absolutely be able to be done as an overlay it wouldn't be spot zoning it's 300 acres it would be done as an overlay okay so anyway so the cluster zoning that we were considering passing for the whole town now we're going to do an noval aid for one person who made a bad purchase in my opinion cuz nobody else wanted to buy it all these years that's a personal opinion up what health now they came back with a 40b right to scare everyone the 40b will never get built there if anybody remembers town meeting when we're going to get $14 million for golf course and if we didn't that night the next week that was going to the world was going to end it didn't happen because it was not feasible this property it is not feasible to build that and he knows it you'd have to blast the whole half the property to get in water line the sewer line a foundation or you'd have to bring in so much gravel and bring the grade up there so far either way on a 40b for anybody doesn't know 40 BS and I'm going to simplify it okay you got a lot and can get one house on I'm I'm going to do it by four cuz it's 25% now you can get four on it it used to be the first one you built you lost a lot of money on you made it up in the second one then you got to have the third lot you had by right and then the fourth one so the developer got an extra a lot out of it and the town got a lot of benefit and it's not all section A like people like to talk about there's single mothers divorced people older people I can give you a list of people that are live in them and it's a big need that this town doesn't have young couple starting out we don't have it so they came in and with a big 40b project well those numbers 40 BS Billy work now if you have a great piece of property your materials are good your road car cost a minimal you can barely make a 40b work this is never going to work as a 40b with a profit cap in and if we had a real engineer with a real plan they could give you a cost estimate and they tell you so now they're coming back and saying I won't do a 40 scary 40b for the town if you let me have more homes than I could get on a 40b buy right and let me sell a bunch of 7 or $800,000 houses down there okay so now they want over 200 houses and that's the only way he can make money because he needs to sell them all for that much money to cover his cost right what's the town getting out of it the town's getting nothing in my opinion out of even considering them letting them do that okay if he comes back with clusters only and he can prove 60 lots and we give him 60 Lots that's perfectly fine but now if we even consider giving them the 200 now what happens now next senten is we have 200 more houses in town we need 10% we need 20 more 40 BS we're forcing the zoning board if we approve this to take on another 200 unit project that they can't say no to there this just makes no sense at all and I can't even understand for the life of me how it's even got this far this this just makes no sense with those kind of numbers some of those are professional we've know perk I I'm not going to call people out but a lot of people have tried parking that it doesn't perk the costs are going to be a nightmare to do it and don't let people get scared by the big bad 40 is going to come in but we're going to have more houses with more kids than we would have got under a 40b a lot of the people live there are really nice people they hardw working people they have to have a mortgage and there's a need for this town and to compare the number by 40b as what you're allowed to get is absurd no town in the world in the whole state cuz we are the only ones with 40b has clusters zoning that even has anything to do with a 40b so so this whole thing is absurd it's never going to happen happen is a 40b the only way it's going to happen is if we let them build $ 800,000 200 $800,000 houses there and the town's going to get nothing out of it except Force the zoning board to accept another 200 unit 40b project because we approved this I don't even know why we're thinking about it most of those are my personal opinions a lot of them are from doing business and this is what I do for living but I don't even understand why we're considering this and then to say well he's going to give us the other little piece over there and he won't build on that if we approve those houses for them we're going to be in safe Hab we have this big project if it's a 40b we have the one at the hospital and we got the other one at the golf course we're going to be in Safe Harbor with these projects till I die so he's never going to be able to come back and try to threaten us with another 40b so it it it makes no sense to me at all why no one's been able to rationalize to me why we're even considering this and I hope the people don't even put it to town meeting you know I didn't always agree with a lot Rich the camera over the years but the day they stopped us from spending $14 million cuz the world was going to end the next week cuz it was a signed contract and they were ready to start how many years ago was that and this is the exact same thing they're just trying to scare us to let them build 200 houses on a piece of property that he can't get more than 30 on if he tried and and that's all I have to say about it it's just ridiculous so I would I'm sorry I'm sorry hold on hold on um I Nate because I know you're familiar with with the background and why we're at this point and I think you'd be great at articulating certain benefits to why we're considering an OSB as opposed to a 40b if you wouldn't mind yeah so I mean we can Circle back um from when the original petition um was before the zoning board of appeals and and this was simply um Muhammad itani when he presented the project to the zoning Board of Appeals he said he was working um with the previous Town Planner on an open space residential uh development plan I hadn't heard of that I don't think anybody else had known that was happening and I simply called attorney Ma and said is it something that you would still consider working with the town as an alternative should the town decide to go that route so you know in in my mind you know aside from what Bob's saying so maybe if a 40b can't work there anyway um whether septic related or anything else I'm assuming that if a 40b can't work there with the 200 units then neither can an open space residential development because they're both dealing with the exact same septic system if if I'm not mistaken right well no you are because at a by by right they can only get about 30 Lots there so they could do the 30 lots and they could still keep it on the half of the property that does Perk so that's plus the zoning so they still can get that that's what most people figured out you can get lots down there by doing perk test over the years so my my point is is if there's a package treatment facility that serves a 40b if it was viable and you took that same 200 units and did 200 units in an open space residential development plan the same package treatment facility would apply right you could you could theoretically use that but yeah why would you give 200 units you only can get what you are allowed to get by right not by 40b right by 40b is a whole different law current zoning that's not the point that's not the point that I'm saying I'm just saying from a feasibility perspective again this was meant to give the town options and so from a septic component whether it's 200 units in a 40b or 200 units spread across town if it was served by the same sewage treatment facility it's feasible something that could be done now I'm not I'm not saying it's a good idea or a bad idea it's for the town to decide and I hope everybody understands the my only intent here was to give the town options and you know we contemplated um and again I'm not an engineer not an attorney so I don't claim to be um I didn't look at this to say okay look there's a a threat here of a 40b I think we need uh housing I like um you know affordable housing stock uh like you said Bob and and I don't disagree you know young people I have a daughter with a we married daughter with two kids and they can't live in Lakeville they qualify for $350,000 who would have thought you couldn't buy a house in Lakeville for $350,000 so they move back in with me until they find a place and my my son's a disabled vet um so it's it's very very unfortunate that we put ourself in this position so you know from a 40b perspective I'm for housing in in the right places I'd rather see a lot more smaller projects 16 18 20 unit projects but that's not what the cards that we've been dealt with from the state and you know you heard me at the last meeting if we don't like it we got to speak to our legislators and and tell them what we don't like about it and you know I never thought it was a one-size fits-all uh but it seems to be and it's not right but again I I can't reiterate enough and I I've said this before Muhammad didn't approach the town or didn't approach me didn't approach this current planning board and say look we want an open space residential development this was simply me hearing a m zonian board of appeals meeting and saying it's worth investigating as a town if we don't think it works it's going to M it's going to pass town meeting don't vote for it or you know maybe even um more so if we don't think it should even go there I don't think we should waste our time and you know I don't take offense one way or another I just figured it was an option for the town if it doesn't work it's not waste our time doing it so Michelle I think um I applaud your efforts in bringing everybody together because unless we can get a consensus I wa you know it really would be a waste of time you know Council money and uh everything drafting this because I really don't think Muhammad is um interested in being a back and forth negotiation and all this other stuff um I would think that he's a successful businessman and he wouldn't be presenting a 40b unless it was a viable option he's got site eligibility letter it from the state he's moving through the traffic studies he's moving through this all this stuff I I again maybe he's maybe this isn't going to happen but you know I'd like to make sure you know we make a note of folks that don't think it'll happen and you know when it happens I I hope they recognize what they're saying yeah it doesn't happen and if it does some somehow if if he can make it work like at least it counts for the time we don't need anymore or else we're going to get a couple hundred units there they don't count and now we're going to need more in the town I mean there it as open space I'm 100% for a real open space like every other town and city in the state does open space you take it you get it you cut the land you cut if you can get 60 houses you get to put your 60 houses on half the amount of land the town gets half the land for free the developer gets to build half the road half the drainage half the Landscaping half the everything he makes out the town makes out and that's all for it but to go here even if he got all 60 somehow he got parks on that's never going to happen right even if he got 60 it's not 200 like there's so every time somebody comes in and threatens us and says oh if you don't let me um here's my 40b plan which isn't even has no drainage water nothing on it it's just a pretty picture here's my 40b plan or let me build as many houses by right and then I won't do a 40b the word 40b shouldn't be scaring all these people cuz it's it's and it's wrong so if if whether we all agree that 200 houses are there or not however we get there at least just they should count is all I'm saying like if it's going to happen it's going to happen but you know you take the 40b off there goes the profit cap now instead of making money off of one and a half or two of the houses out of four now he's make you know he's making another four of them it it's just a cash grab that eventually will and if Town Council was here they could confirm it Nate knows us too now we have 200 more houses and we're going to force the zoning board to take another 200 unit 40b or threaten us again with it so if going to happen let it just okay let's you're going on a rant we don't need to talk about you know reash calling it a cash cow or whatever so the benefit to the town if the developer comes back with an actual no osrd the benefit to the town would be 150 acres of 300 acres that we find to be priority protection parcel to be able to be put aside not to be phased into another phase of development and for the town to then benefit by having this open space land for free that is what one of the options is that they could come back with they could very well come back with an actual osrd for then for the select board to then work on a development agreement they were agree amendable to a development agreement they said would be willing to put one in place prior to town meeting so that the residents would know what they're voting on so if that if that's the case I wanted the select word to be aware that if that happens it may have to get done quickly so what we're looking for is what's the developer going to come back with I don't want to see another non osrd for consideration I want to see something that does put aside a good amount of land I I would like Kora cor Pierce was invited to this evening's meeting but she's away on vacation she'll she'll be back um in the beginning of February um but I do I do want her to be involved in this as well because she knows a lot of these areas and and I know she doesn't want to publicly discuss where certain areas are but I think she could privately say you know she she was asking for a topographical map so that she could point to areas where she thinks are um concerned to uh to save to prevent from being destroyed so so there were certain benefits to considering an osrd for this area is as well as the phasing of the the development yes even with a 40b they they' only have so many units they could bring every year but they were agreeing to a certain number of phased units per year and that would be built into the development agreement if if they come up with an osrd um the other part was instead of being all ages 200 units they were considering adding 20% as um senior housing which once again we have a need in town for senior housing and that was something they were willing to write into a development agreement so I don't want to poooo this whole thing and say well they didn't bring it the first time it's not a osrd we can't consider it any further if they're going to come back with a decent response I think we should have a decent response back to them because as Nate said the town we approached them they said they they were interested in an osrd if they really are interested in an SRD which is building no more than the number of units you could get on a conventional subdivision if they're able to bring that back to the town I think it's worth considering and I think it's worth being aware that they're willing to work out a development agreement if if so so just for clarification are you talking about the 60 or 70 units that they can get by right on that plan that they had or are you talking about 200 units on a 40b I'm not talking about 200 units you read the letter right you saw the but we've seen plans we've got plans about this is a conceptual plan and so for me I know the developer you know has said that they don't want to have this public bargaining and I I was very clear when I spoke to attorney ma that I think it should be done publicly because the town wants to see those discussions happening and that's what we're doing here and I would like the developer to be a part of it if they're willing to work on this further I don't want to just shut it down this is for 70 units and everybody's 100% for it if this is for real cluster it's fine it's going using the 40b number as the bargain and Chip not what they could really get there so I don't see it as the 40b being the bargain trip I think they started off with what their their their most desirable option this they came at us really high and we went back with what we want to see and if they can come down to to an amendable agreement I think that's when we B we we work with them so once again I don't want to just shut it down and say no definitely not if anything comes back we're going to review whatever they have to to say back to us and if it's amendable then I Know Myself and I don't want to speak to the whole board but I think I would like to see the planning board consider something to town meeting if it is an osrd and I'm not I'm not on board with passing something or or bringing something to town meeting that's that's not no SRD agre so um does anyone did open space or have anything that they want to add well open space you know I I I agree that it's it' be great to get 150 acres protected but if it's if it's not buildable land I mean that's uh is probably uh it won't be town home but it won't be built on anyway so but there's no guarantees or anything we don't really know I I just don't think um we should give on any um uh uh perk testing requirements that you know that yeah that's only going to create a mess so if they can um build what they can build through the current policies and and laws of the Town that's one thing whether it's an osrd or 40b I mean that's you got to start with that but if they can come in with the lower units and meet all the requirements of a subdivision Bild and we get 150 acres protected and that could work but I um I don't know if it's still necessary if they can't build anyways can I just speak to that point I I do agree with uh with you on that as far as you know I I think we're all for if they can perk a lot and it's a real uh cluster Zone open space that would be excellent um I just want to um I'm not 100% sure maybe Nate would not on this one me I I believe they're putting almost 200 units on five acres at the hospital site I'm not positive so there's 300 acres here so I I know I don't think they they can get what's drawn on that plan but I think by all means they can put 200 units on this 300 Aces they can come back with a three story four story building you see everywhere a little 5 acres and pump 200 units in there through a 40b so I I don't want to you know there's a lot of land there and that could be just this phase and then they could get another 5 Acres down the road we don't get that quarter and put another 200 units so just just so you know did does their package for zoning and for the state for the 40b have um a planed more substantial plans of what they plan to do besides just the stuff we've seen you know where it's the stuff we've seen is just kind of conceptual we haven't seen like further down the road type plans maybe not 100% complete but like 50 or 60% what we're seeing is like 10% um as far as I know I'm curious how much Upland like actual Upland there is that they found out there because I mean I know there we all know Bob said it there's a ton of ledge out there never the ledge in the wetlands takes a ton of land away from that so like and that this goes right back to what Derek was just saying like there's some there is some upin out there and they could squeeze you know a 200 unit building on 5 Acres but I'm curious what that actual uplo number is I think this is where some of their negotiating is is making me question what's going on with them they're just kind of like want to see what we'll do right instead of saying hey this is what we can do you know what I mean and I feel like they're trying to wait for us to say here we'll give you this when we should be like no well what are you going to do you know I they should be here I think it's just as a resident not just a board member they should be here to answer questions um you know and I'm surprised they didn't reply the letter by now it's been out long enough so I have a question for the planning board um I know you know septic isn't my area of spe uh specialty but um is there what is the standard for um like parking and you know requirements as far as that for any development is there like a stand a lot and we were willing to go to One Park a lot just to make it easier for them but when you say lot right so where 70,000 ft lot you need four parts so you prove a conceptual right a conceptual is from towns what 17,000 and you do four holes okay but we were saying just do one just to prove that you could get these amount of lots it's pretty standard most towns that have concept that have cluster zoning or open space Ty bylaws where you it's like Bob said like the the benefit to them is they don't have to build as much road as much drainage as you basically taking conventional and just shrinking it down and all this stays protected you know is basically what you're doing and that's where we're kind of we want to stick to that what we're hoping for and on all on those lots we're talking about you have to meet all of TI five you have to meet all the setbacks wsal pools everything you have to show that that is buildable on that so you you might have to have six acres on that one to meet your setbacks you have to show a reserve area you have to meet all of title 5 without a variant to get a buildable lot so that's what they need to show and you know we came back instead of doing four holes and two perks on each lot um just do one hole to show you have full feet of material and perk it a perk rate 60 Minutes an inch so they'll probably get the perk to go they just might not have the full feet of natural occurring material you need to get a legitimate Title 5 park that's going to be the downfall because it's all ledge down two or three feet you hit rock it doesn't pass as a parkable lot doesn't pass Title 5 um and a lot of up there is ledge there's a lot of there's a stream running through it there's veral pool so you need set packs um on that plan they got lots drawn right through the ver you know through the wetlands through the stream Wetland cross and it's just conception um how soon would an expected response be from the developer um to move this I'm just thinking you know timeline um did they indicate to you Nate no um they said that they were working on a response but they didn't really want to get into a negotiation again they didn't ask for it um you know as the Board of Health mentioned and and I wholeheartedly agree with this is that on a conventional subdivision plan maybe they about 80 Lots maybe they only get 30 of them um to fly so um this kind of goes back to what I said at the last meeting where you know I hate to keep blaming the state um but by our zoning laws being the way they are by conventional um you know construction and development being the way it is we force developers to go a different route and you know U Derek alluded to it um with the hospital property and and what's going to be built on five or six acres Jonathan White and it's a great project that me 204 units on on 8 Acres right and and that's another scenario and you know when when we were looking at this originally I was thinking you know I saw Muhammad backed out the 10 acres on the open space residential development plan and I said well you know the 10 acres would be in a situation where you probably could put a 200 unit rental right there off of the highway and part of the development agreement that I would be looking for if we were going to go forward with something would be restrict that for not to be another 40b it would have to be and they agreed to that um we were also looking at a maximum of 20 to 25 houses per year for the next 10 years um not to exceed number that way we would slow growth into our roadways into our school system uh they would be Sustainable New Growth from a taxation perspective um on top of our tax levy and you know again this was a way to um allow growth protect open space try to be reasonable with the development so you weren't forcing your hand and and I I really hope that a 40b is not possible I really do uh so if we don't go forward with this I just don't want to be sitting in front of friends and family and and other residents in in Lakeville and say you know we had an opportunity to negotiate something that would work for the town but we chose not to um because I just again I hate to be the dead horse here but um Muhammad's no dumy he's very very successful he's he's not going forward with this um just uh you know this he hasn't gone this far to take on a project that's not going to be done something's going to something's going to happen there and you know the other option is to buy it and you know from a financial perspective I'd love if we had all kinds of money where we could buy something like that we just would be irresponsible to me my opinion you got to remember the reason why I say that if we could have approached them ahead of time and I know open space um is really um looking at this closely now to proactively uh speak to folks in in tra to land and larger Parcels in town and get them when they could um you know before a developer buys them so you know if we could have bought that land for what Muhammad paid for it I said that's great you know we protected all that land it's super um but now you got to remember he's petitioned the state it's a 9698 million project it's allowed 20% profit is that1 million 185 so he's not going to he's not going to sell it to us for three if he can make 18 I understand if he sold it for three or four it would be a situation where you could turn around and say okay look he didn't have to do all of this and you know maybe if it didn't work but you know he's allowed that kind of profit so if he does have a phase two or phase three looming where he can make similar profit dividends and he's a he's a machine it's a it's a big company and he's got to keep everything going he doesn't care if he's forecasting his b business plan out 15 or 20 years at this point there's a lot of investors there it's not just him so you know when you look at it that way and you say what is phase two what is phase three or Poss possibility those phases look like again I mean residents decide but um I I think we owe our residents the option and to look into it further you know I I I don't want to be the Catalyst of conversation between them ultimately when whe however this goes I have to permit and inspect it I really feel a little bit uncomfortable how far I got into it just approaching um Bob Ma I didn't want to do that I went on record I put in an email I shared it with everybody to see what my correspondence was um but again I felt passionate enough for the town of Lakeville that I care about to to give us options and I appreciate it n and I agreed with you and I'm I'm glad that we've gotten this far and maybe we'll get something back that we'll be even more pleased with but it's to be determined I guess anybody from the select Court have I just had a I had a couple comments Nate you touched on most of it about the back and forth and trying to get the best deal that you can out of the situation um the state has pushed a no- win situation on us again um and money as it is now this is not $300,000 this is not3 million this is probably closer to 10 or5 million um if we were to try to enter into any type of agreement um and then a clar point of clarification on the letter that was sent about the agreement um it reads as if the planning board is trying to uh broker a deal that is not within the purview of the planning board that would come back with through the board of Selectmen and that's why we're all here tonight to make sure that everyone's on the same page and we're all having this conversation before anything goes any further um but I want to commend uh both the Building Commissioner and the planning board for not stopping at the first answer um it's the easiest way to go is to stop at the first answer it's much harder to dig in and and try to work with developers and try to figure out what's best for the town uh it's a delicate balance and it feels like a hard hard Roo and I really appreciate everyone's commitment to trying to make that happen and do the best thing for the people of Lakeville um did anybody else and and so NY I did ask Nancy if she would reach out to some different entities just to see if there is any money available um did you get any response from anybody so I I did reach out to a number of different land trusts to see what their interest would be and not necessarily funding um but being interested in partnering with the community um much of their concern was the value of the property at this point much to your point um is that it's would be very high um value to reach but there is interest I think I I I sense but because of Rocky Wood's significance um I think cor is probably going to be a very key figure with with that um being said because of the significance historically um but they're they're interest they're they're not they're not jumping but they're they like they want me to stay stay in touch so that's that's as far as I go okay I thought that was good a good good beginning of conversation with people who may want to partner down the road so Nancy and those interactions did you mention to those other entities like the possibility of multiple people coming in on board so cuz I I wonder if that's maybe a way to increase people's interest maybe if they hear that they're not going to be going in alone and you know there's not just two or three there's like four or five maybe then it does help break up that that cost much more there's a lot more projects like that going around on the state that I've had some experience with so be surprised you see a sign in front of a project that's like eight different people throwing money in in the pool and that's how you get stuff done sometimes it would get done yeah so I I would think that they would probably be open to that but as as I said they're still being cautious just offering information they did say we know that the open space plan would need to be um right oh and that's the other thing so the open space plan and I know that Joan has been going through a 280 page document and I think sur's finally involved um I had an old email from Ari the prior Town Administrator saying that that if the plan is completed and if there were grants that were pursued the grants actually could be gone uh put towards paying off a debt so just FYI that if if there is something to go after with the open space plan it could you know if the town were to put in some money it could potentially pay off that debt as well so my understanding is there's two types there's types where we commit to the sale first and then they pay back and then there's other types where they get upfront money for it so obviously The Upfront money would be the the ideal scenario um I can't remember under which uh borrowing that was but there there were two scenarios in the open space I think it was a park in the land I believe is what he I had asked him about and he said that it could be used to pay debt just does that new buy protect sell stuff that's going on too but I don't know if the state would wants to protect it or have the housing that's a tough one um but there's there's Federal money involved with that too it's a whole other game um if no one else up here has any more comments I'd like I have one more question so I in this letter I don't I see what we sent him but did we actually reach out to him to see if he was willing to even think about sing it no so I'm like I said we're waiting on a response so but was that an a question in this so the last item was what we gotten from open space that we included okay all right thank you mam there's just one other item that was was mentioned as well as my conversation with the land um trusts is that um MVP or the municipal vulnerability plans are now using those types of funds uh under resiliency and if you could make the case for resiliency you could possibly get money through MVP because the pot of money that is provided through that mechanism is at a very high premium um we're just out of compliance you just passed your last year so you need to update it to the 2.0 MBP so that would be something that you can also consider but it would take a little time to get there but it's not it's it's within reach so that's the municipal vulnerability preparedness correct um plan that's every five years is it it's every five years was 2019 yes I remember so that so that's now expired so we have to get that it would be considered expired and and then they would want you to do 2.0 so I did reach out to um the coordinator in this region to see whether or not that would be possible to find funding at this point to get that uh MVP updated so I'm waiting to hear back from her as well excellent thank you um questions please state your name the record Heather bwell um 13 Mar Pond Road I have so many questions um and first I'm going to say something that I didn't think would ever come out of my mouth but I I 100% agree with Bob and um shocker um why are we here he came to the meeting at the rocky Woods uh in the auditorium and all of a sudden everyone in the audience had a gasp that he said we're don't want to we want to consider osrd and every's like where the heck did that come from where the heck you know we were all there because you want to put 240D houses on here all of a sudden he changes his mind why because it's been sitting here for 20 years and no one's been able to build on it I think he's bitten off way more than he can chew he spent way too much money on the or actually he didn't spend too much money on it but he knows he's going to lose money on it um he's a locust he comes in he comes into towns he eats up all the land builds crappy houses I'm sorry not crappy houses builds as many houses as he can and he leaves and he doesn't come back and shame on attorney Mathers for not showing up tonight you're a lak resident so the developer wasn't so because we're discussing their response we didn't to this meeting he was invited to the 26 uh all right so I have a question the land that is the owns next to Rocky Woods is that part of what we're talking about the Landon's on County Street are you talking about the 10 acres that was shown the one he said he's not going to build on this Phase 2 three four five he owns over here his under his brother's name his son's name the other property is that going to be included in the osrd so that was going to be left out because then he can just build there so he can do his phase two there so he was willing to do a development agreement that would say he wouldn't he would agree to not put a 40b there on the other property correct but he could put an osrd no so I mean you would have to go to town meeting to so if we were do an overlay zone for for these Acres he would have to go back to to meeting to extend it over because that was my next question osrd is not on our bylaws right now correct so it has to pass first correct then he has to apply for an overlay no no not he that would be it would be done as an overlay District site specific not over the whole town correct cuz we all gotten a correct big issue correct as we can remember that it wasn't over the whole town so this won't be over the whole town correct it would be designated for these these Parcels okay um so Nate the osrd you kept saying we're giving the town Alternatives you're giving Muhammad Alternatives you're not giving the town Alternatives we're giving Muhammad an alternative we're giving him an out he can't build 200 houses on there I'm in agreeance with him it's not going to work so can can I ask Bob a question if he is so if we say no to the osrd and he says okay fine I'm going to build 40b how many do you think he can get there goof far well he could change the plan he could like they said Nate said he could build a taller building he could change it he could get a treatment plant there he he probably would get that many but something that I I was hoping Town Council would be here tonight because if we approach we're a small town in 2008 they changed the 40b law small towns around the state have asked them the state to set a number the maximum number of units a developer can come in and make us take it's not unlimited it isn't a, most towns out size it's 150 units 250 might be 200 200 yeah so it it is shown on that slideshow from what's the name Phil Phil something or other Phil can't remember how can you build a 200 apartment with the same sub don't you I mean now you have 200 units still using the same septic the flows flows it would it would it doesn't matter if they're for sale Apartments treatment plant prob he would do a treatment plan yes almost 50,000 the treatment plant doesn't come under their jurisdiction corre yeah that goes right to D everything over 10,000 gallons a day goes to okay DP the public well Okay I uh I guess I was right from the beginning um on social media I was saying it's he's he's scared we need to call his bluff I don't think it's a good idea anyone else hello Susan spieler um I had sent a letter to the select board um asking about emminent domain why couldn't we entertain taking that Land by eminent domain perhaps getting audon to pitch in to pitch in we still don't know how much CPA could bond against that I know we have a lot of things coming up but Erica never gave you figures on how much we could want correct I mean it's worth entertaining that maybe a bunch of us can pull money together and take it by domain um to prove out eminent domain you'd have to prove significant um public need for the land and statute has never shown that having open space it's a hard it's a hard Pathway to go forward it's not like you know for a school or or for a hospital something it's a PRI priority protection property I don't dis I don't disagree with how important the property is um I just disagree with how hard it would be to actually get eminent domain and how long it would take and how much legal fees the town would have to pay um to try to enter into such an agreement or try to into um I don't think anything's bad to to look into at this point most ENT domain you have to compensate the person yes at fair market value and fair market value would be somewhere between 10 15 million around getting outside people to maybe think goatees a little bit easier than the town trying to do something like that 100% I mean I get where you going right but I mean in the tribes and CPA pitch in we might be able to get to that number who knows we don't yeah but without LM me cuz make it harder I think okay but it's just the thought thank you so Noel Lakeville um any of these options from what I'm hearing are going to take many many many months and much negotiation and I just I have a feeling we have a new town planner and I have a feeling she has some very good ideas I like what I was hearing about the Land Trust I mean if you look at some of the land trust things that um are happening in other communities and I know other communities have more money than we do but um I feel like if she continues the research with those and this resiliency business whatever that's all about that may be a really an Avenue that holds some promise and whereas any of these options are going to take a lot of time keep that thing cooking keep it cooking and um welcome welcome to Lakeville thank you hi Mary Jean Lor um just a couple of points U one of the Board of Health members had asked about on the original 40b proposal how much land was actually there that was considered Upland I the only kind of plans that we have seen outside of Mr atani's Fantastic presentation of these beautiful New England po the plan that he talked about on the 40b he's talking about 8 Mill 325,000 Square ft I don't know if that's accurate so many of the numbers that he's put forth through garded Consulting has been disputed by the ecosystems engineering company that the Conservation Commission has worked with the only thing that we've seen is fluff and stuff and not a lot of negotiations coming back and forth I can only speak for myself and my husband but the residents that are so unhappy about this on Freetown Street I don't think there's anyone that is opposed to affordable housing our concerns are that the scale the scope of what this gentleman and I use that term loosely is proposing is totally inappropriate for the site and yes towns people are scared yes residents are scared when we're thinking about an option of a three four however many story building that he can get on a number of lots as a osed to 200 and 400 of course it sounds horrible it's all horrible we're just looking for options we're not opposed to one plan Or Another We're trying to seek the the lowest impact on the land on the wildlife on the culture of our community uh we have no strong feelings one way or the other except that we're all miserable we're thankful that finally everyone is together we're grateful we've got a town Planner on board now and a new Town Administrator we need help we all need help we're not going to get it from Mr atani I that's clear he wants to make money that is his plan I was concerned in the letter and I apologize I did not have a chance to send an email to the Board of Health First there was something in the letter that talked about an 8,000 square foot that scares me that's Lear but 10,000 was the bare minimum that you were talking about for perks is that what I'm hearing tonight that for perks person the 8,000 was a typo that was that was a typ not supposed to be in there from the Board of Health we that's the last thing the Board of Health want of Health we wanted 30,000 is what, but we wanted everything tied into the treatment plan too that we sent a letter at our next meeting back okay so that was amended because the letter that we saw it was the letter was already sent I believe think we already we already have bylaws that limit to 30 or 40,000 no matter what so okay that's what I thought I heard you bring up I don't know where that so these were these were taken right from the letter that you sent us so yeah that 8,000 wasn't on it we brought it up at our next meeting and we had yeah we had the letter so it was just it's a just a typo and I mean how often does language get in the way oh you know plan that we so that was actually from our meeting and you had said 8,000 we sent a letter back saying you didn't we never talk about 8,000 what h's not for anything not for 15,000 which those are so you didn't have that part included in yours but I had it from my Note so I didn't want to leave it off and the reason you said that is because these over here um six minimum lot area 15,000 sare ft for the single the family home locks the the duplex over here so that's why I think you had said 8,000 and I just taken it off my noes but anything that small we wanted everything tied into the treatment because like we don't we don't want anything that small right and that and we do have that one is you know anything the duplexes shown on the plan should be tied into the Waste Water treatment system right okay well that that is an important clarification when we're looking at the letter and the discussion that's going to be coming back and forth we have to cross our tees and and D our eyes and and make sure because as you've mentioned this is a a businessman extraordinaire who's not backing it alone so he doesn't need to have a bonded you know scenario he's got a lot of Investments behind him he's going to make his way um and our chances are are limited but to at least be discussing and saying okay well what about this what about that is hopeful what about Land Trust what about you know Mass Aon what about these other options that are out there for us so that we're not raded into it's not just 40b that's not it his 40b could look like Boston on Freetown Street I mean the land there's some land that's perable we know that the state has already said oh yeah go ahead fine I don't know what route they walked when they walked back there but it's not the route that we've walked over the years that are there and gentlemen who are speaking to the fact that that land has been unavailable because will couldn't do it either he couldn't do what he wanted to do it's been sitting for 20 years and here we are and I understand and I empathize with the worry about them being pushed the zoning board of appeals being pushed with another 200 I don't want 200 units anywhere I'm miserable when I drive down 79 and I look at what those people have had to have happen there maybe there are some very happy people there that's fine but I don't think that you're not getting complaints from Board of Health from you know sound and smell and everything else what makes us think that this is going to be any different off of Freetown Street he's not going to live there and neither is attorney Ma you know he might live in town but he's not living there and I I applaud everybody for trying different options and I think we can't give up my guess from my read on Mr atani is he's got a zoning board of appeals meeting set on March 26 we're not going to hear from him anytime soon he's going to wait it out because he's got options and he's going to make his money and we're going to be left with the results of it so all we can do is thank you for all getting together Michelle I give you big props for getting all of us on board so that I realized there's so many other projects in town I can't imagine your workload and I appreciate this is volunteer I get it this is a lot but if we're not all on the same page and looking ahead instead of looking behind and say we really messed that one up we're not going to get anywhere so just keep in mind we're not fighting about 40b we're fighting about a monstrosity that does not belong there whether it's you know 14 floors three floors whatever it's still disturbing the land it's still ruining the wildlife and it's ruining the character and the quality of life that we've all come to love about living in Lakeville Massachusetts and we don't want to open the door for more but we also don't want to get used to meet the standard so that 200 doesn't happen someplace else let's all work together and agree it's all important all of the land is important yes the state is wrong but there's people working on that too and we have to all just hope and pray and work real hard to get on the same page and anticipate some of what this company and Mr Otani has in mind for us thank you Mary thank you hi Christopher blaner uh couple questions um per the uh proposal uh it says that the number of L should not exceed the quantity allowed through a conventional subdivision that requires at least one successful per test so do we know that I think bobi was you got some ideas and we know that when us we hire our own engineering firm to go out and do that no they'd have to go out the water help them witness the parks okay and they haven't done that yet they're making a lot of assumptions when they're coming up with this 200 in in your professional estimate by right they can only get in the 60s their plan shows 60 something that's what they know they can get by right every single okay so we know the number that was the number by right they're limited to 60 so that's without the park test showing okay and that was on I don't believe I don't know uh that's not on the full 300 acres that was only drawn on half the property correct it's not including they're going to have to go back and show the Lots on all 300 acres which they haven't done yet it's not including this it's just it's not shown what it should be so when they go to 300 acres it might go to 120 or 150 we don't know we just we don't know he probably knows or he probably a good idea Engineers might know right but they haven't proposed that to us we only have what was on the original 180 Acre Site that was the 40D sign not the 38 Aces we we don't know but he did Express that he does plan a second phase for that so that and I suspect to Bob's point that maybe he intentionally let that slip to scare us thinking that right he's thinking he knows a lot more than what we know and what's out there right so wouldn't that be smart if him kind of let that intentially slip while everybody up and now okay w we 40 B on phase one and another one on phase two where you do this nice little osid so I suspect so it's not an osid that he submitted though so if you look at it I his proposal it it appears to be proposal okay the the osrd conceptual does not it's not an osrd so that's why his proposal correct right his proposal and maybe wouldn't he rather deal with us versus the state under the 40b housing I think he would much rather deal with us in the state so I think there some Advantage then is why he would put he would still have to go through Mass D for for it's a whole different level when he's dealing with us under our osid versus the state for and I believe he would still have to file with meepa if he goes through a state agency as well so that's still another state 4B doesn't supersede water Health conservation or um what you just said osid I'd make more regulations You' have to follow into 40b he's dealing with RIS us not so much no 40b is less respective than that R okay thanks um the affordable housing component so I saw in the proposal that was released last December it could be a the a affordable housing component or age restricted so that was so we had had a draft of osrd language that we were going to bring to town meeting we we didn't well first we brought it it was shot down we worked on revising making edits and that was something that um we planning board had discussed adding we hadn't had Town Council reviewed that language that's something that would still have to be reviewed there was a back when the previous Town planner was with us he did get the um senior housing portion confirmed with Town Council but not the um affordable component but so the thought was if we're going to let them do an osrd the affordable component would be almost like an inclusion Zone inclusionary zoning which would mean yes they can build their subdivision but they'd still have to either include senior or now affordable units so that our Shi one of the things that Bob was saying is the Shi uh an osrd doesn't help with our Shi so if we add that in they would have to still provide those Shi units so that it'll help our percentage if it stands today there's no nothing's going to count toward their Shi in this proposal so what they're proposing is the senior that's why it was either senior units or Shi units that's in senior doesn't count towards Shi though it doesn't count towards so why would we consider not counting toward because so you could have senior units and it doesn't necessarily affect the schools and you could have the all ages units that count is you know affordable but now you you get that extra tax on the schools the you know Financial so that that's why it's kind of like I would think a developer would not want to right not interested in affordable in terms of a profitability standpoint oh no there's a cap a 40b has a profit cap a 40b out of the four units you're lucky if you make money on one and a half of them um it's it's way more restrictive it's a lot more work and of course if you could make profit off one and a half units out of every four or and and if there's a stigma with 40 BS and the prices don't go as high as they would be or you have no 40 BS and now they're all 7 or 800 Grand I don't take my word for what what anybody else want to do of course you wouldn't want to do a 40b you want to make all that money so but I mean honestly tooo uh piece that we're missing I think that we should ask the the selection would ask Town Council whatever our number cap is I think it maybe it's 200 if Nate said so I believe 100% so we get 200 there he's just proposed we got 200 at the hos um hospital we get another 100 at the golf course so 80 or whatever there is we should be in safe Haba for years and years and years and when we're in safe Haba nobody can come in anymore and Bully us nobody can come and shove anything down our throat we can negotiate with them and if they don't do what we ask them to do then the next guy that comes along we can negotiate with them until we're out of Safe H and get all these things that we're asking for and that should be a big part of this that the town's people should know to make this decision because you know then coming back and saying I'm going to do it on the other piece and the other piece it's not going to be in my lifetime with 500 units and you know but I'd like that from Town Council to go through Mass Housing and get the exact you know or dhcd and get that exact answer for the people so they know what they're voting on so again right they're saying well they can do another piece they could go over here for 5 Acres they could do this I don't think they can and and and I'm pretty sure cuz I know 40b well but I would like Town Council to find out and let us all know 100% sure can come more I have it right here so large scale projects 760 CMR 5603 1D I'm not going to keep going zba has discretion to reject projects exceeding thresholds based on the number of units or percentage of total housing units depending on the size of the community and so we have um 4,000 4,000 units in town uh in the municipality which has between 2500 and 5,000 housing units 200 unit cap so that's large scale project that's a 200 unit cap per project it's not per Town per year it's per project yes but then with what's proposed now the 200 there the other 200 at the hospital and the other 70 or 80 or whatever it is at the golf course I haven't seen that personally that puts us in Safe Harbor for a long time so then there's no more on this 5 Acres I'm going to build 200 in this so it doesn't put us in a so we need 36 Shi units to be built in one year for two years of safe harbar or 18 units in one year for one year of safe harbar so also the Shi units haven't even been recorded with the state for the past couple years and that's something that I mean I know the last time we had a joint meeting with select board I had asked over the summer and I know Nancy now that we have a town planner again is finally working on it to get it up the state but that's something like I don't know how we can even let zba move forward with the 40b project without having that number on record with the state I mean it's mindboggling that it's not on file with the state and yet CBA keeps moving forward with these 40 BS I mean to be fair to the zoning board though too A lot of that should be the Town Council should be watching this far somebody should be for the amount of money that all these kids in school are going to cost we should be spending a little bit more money with Town Council and get somebody who only handles 40 BS to keep an eye on these things very carefully for us thank you uh final question um requiring escrow accounts as a mitigation that was brought up at a public hearing so if he starts blasting and starts you know messing up the water table and and a Butter's Wells and stuff like that what has that been considered at all we shot down quickly at a public hearing so we I mean for planning board osrd consideration it it's we're not at that stage yet um as far as you know zoning board that' definitely be a great question to bring to them and ask Town Council um because I mean it comes to mind we had that subdivision that you know if the developer was going to make do any damage we we did add a condition to our decision that said that they would be you know held liable so I mean I would suggest that you bring it to CBA unless somebody else has any just add that you when you go to the zba you ask them about assurity or Bond okay than thank you thank you anyone else so at this point I guess um just the reaction to what we heard there um one thing in hearing all the like all this stuff today in the last meeting and um it would be nice if we could go forward and not be reactionary with these things um that property has sat out there for a long time for $3 million and nobody touched it why did nobody come up and go hey why don't we buy this or why I just and I'm not saying it's it's not I'm not trying to accuse anyone I'm just saying we should be like being proactive instead of reactive identifying these things ahead of time I have an answer for you but it was it's brought it was brought up multiple times and the same answer that Bob know that it's all ledge no one's ever going to build there was the it was the answer of previous select boards um $3 million and then uh Another We're not in the real estate business well we don't have money you know it's always we don't have money we don't have money and we just pass cepa it doesn't have that much money in it yet but you know now we do have an option to use for open space as before they come on the market un before it comes on the market that's your opportunity not once a price been put on it but I think everyone in town would have voted for that ride for $3 million no I think they vote for it now I don't think they would have voted for it 10 years ago yeah you know she's right because I I bet you a lot of people would have stood up and said no this will never be built on yeah and here we are false knowledge is worse than no knowledge at all so people think that there's there was ledge there and no one's going to build on it they're not going to see what we see now 20 years later where we see it being like eroded and being a priority to keep safe and I mean it was on the map it was on our priority protection map and but but we don't if we if you don't have the resources then you don't really have a means to do so and it's a shame that CPA took so long to pass honestly agreed um and then the other thing would be like going forward like whatever happens like we just make sure that there isn't things like that happened with other subdivisions where oh it was a over 55 affordable and then oh I can't sell units let's strip the age restriction and then they've functionally got a you know bypass zoning and can sell at market rate like we've seen yeah and that happened so this little examples of stuff like that that we need to pay attention to along the way that's just in G these are just general comments like not point fingers the same no you should be paying attention to it's very hard when something goes to town meeting and people vote for it when no that was an individual board that stripped those age restrictions so not necessarily and honestly that again for all the people and nothing against the plan board or anybody tonight but again with with these are all pot time things that everybody does to try to help out you know that the one you're talking about to me Town Council a giant ballfall they should they review every single thing that goes to town meeting floor and they never told anybody this could happen if you guys pass it the way it is and we should have known that before it got to the town meeting floor to get voted on so that's different the one I was talking about oh right well that's the one I'm talking I was talking about I knew what you're talking about yeah both of you um I think that we you know we get better and better and more aware and more cautious about decision making you know as we are confronted with situations similar to this and I know that um through some of our dialogue at the select board that when we were talking about about 55 you know plus um we always add the word Perpetual so when they say oh yeah this will be 55 plus but what does that mean you know to the to the town is that the first time that somebody moves into that property what about down the road if it's sold so like I think we're getting better and better and it's just unfortunate you know that sometimes we are reactive because somebody might not have thought of and I will say so just reviewing you know I had a chance to review the draft for the um 40b on Main Street and I question you know the word Perpetual is not in there like does this need to be in there and um so I just hope that that because we know that there's certain Shi units that will fall off because the language used in the past wasn't peret and that's and that's where we get smarter and smarter but the other thing I I actually you just made me think of this lorine when you started talking about this you know and Andrew in his interview had talked about having these pre-development meetings and I think something like a 40b should warrant a meeting like this where all of you know the boards and committees get together and discuss it because um I I think it would just be it's hard when we're not in Safe Harbor too though right where they don't have much control so if we know those so if I know that they the select words the the gatekeeper for 40b they solicit input from all the depart the boards Etc but if we were to get together and actually have a discussion and and maybe just flush it all out in a joint meeting because I think it actually leads to better understanding and um I mean the fact that the Shi units weren't even you know aren't even known prior to a 40b development I feel like getting certain people in the same room will help flush all these things out and so maybe I know planning board is discussing adding to our rules and regulations a predevelopment meeting I would love to see that sort of written in for a pre pre-development meeting for 40 BS specifically to have bring everyone to the table for that as well and you know having um you know Nancy our planner here um you know I think she's been taking the time and listening to uh the wants desires needs of our boards committees and commissions and that I think you'll be the thread to that to say hey this is a development that came in you know in front of you know the planning board and you'll provide that Outreach um so that we're all aware communication is key so if I could add one thing to that we there's a lot of turnover on these boards and a lot of things that we all know now someone's not going to know a year or two from now making sure we've codified it all making sure we have shared spreadsheets and shared method IES and shared questions and having that all written down someplace where we're all able to access it um and and have that list of questions right at hand where you're like oh let me question this this and this and and make it more matter of course that will go long way in order to ensure that we can actually execute what we're all theorizing would be great here is having uh you know a tool to do that and not just the people it has to be the process and it has to be you know written down for it to be repeatable I don't want to cut your Beating short but I have to take off so you guys can close without me right can we have one more question I'm sorry y just donay I just I feel like there are three options right now that are floating around my head one is we can sit and think about whether or not the developer will be able to develop a 40b forward with it well I think there's this thought that he might not be able to do it because of the situation of the land the ledge you know he might come into a lot of trouble when he starts so that's one school of thought and then the second school of thought is okay let's just think about this 40b and stop there and then there's this osr that's floating around that in a way appeals to me as a better plan but I don't know enough about it but the way I understand it is there's more work to be done on bylaws before we move forward and the developer kind of has to agree that yes I'm interested in going through with the osr so which comes first is it the work that you would have to undertake to have the bylaws ready by the time the developer says yeah let's explore this osrd so so I can I know you've started so this so so we already have we have a draft okay so it really I think it needs minimal work from Town Council to review it and get it ready for town meeting the the development agreement would be between the town like the select board and ta would work on that with Town Council and the developer if there's an an osrd the the fact is the developer could say I'm not willing to cut my project down to 60 or less units I'm going to go the 40b road and they can still continue on that road and they can get all the necessary permitting through the town and maybe at some point along the way something will come into play and and not let him develop like some people believe but that's an unknown so he could always he could say I'm going to go in that route and and forget narrowing it down to 60 units or less I'm going to go the 40b if if he if he does think maybe he doesn't have a chance to build the 40b as he'd like maybe he is more manable to working on an osrd that works for the town and he's agreeable to because now he doesn't have a profit cap that comes with a 40b he's able to um not do a spread out development it's it's more generalized to one vicinity so he doesn't have to put all the utilities throughout the property it's 300 acres that's a lot of land you know so you could could you could squeeze those 60 units on a smaller portion and that's supposed to be the benefit to the developer because it's a lot less Financial strain to just build on a smaller area but so that's the ball's in his court at this point because we sent back the letter what we're looking for and now we're waiting on what they're coming back with maybe they just go to zba in March and carry on with the 40b maybe they come back with a no SRD that is something that we'll consider and then at that point we'd work this would let the select board know to be involved with creating that development agreement and would have something in place for Springtown meeting okay so at that point residents would have a choice they would have a vote and it would have to be a two3 majority or an osrd 40 osrd it would it wouldn't be 40b or osrd it the choice would be do you want to create a zoning overlay over these 300 acres for the open space residential development and if the town agreed 2/3 majority for a zoning change they would then that overlay would be created and that area designated by town meeting would then be eligible for an open space residential development in What scenario at that town meeting would there not be a choice to go with an osrd would that be if the developer comes back and says I'm not interested in doing an OSI correct yes yeah if he's not willing to go on that road and just going to stick with a 40b why would we put the extra work in to try to understand okay thank you I appreciate that thank you Michelle is an overlay when you say that um it's it says so the underlying zones residential okay so that's still going to be there an overlay just imposes additional zoning a choice on that same area so for example the mix use Zone where the old hospital so you have business in the front residential in the back and the overlay is mixed jued so they could pick which zone They want to go by so and need zoning enforcement so he'd make sure that they apply what's the lot size of the cluster zoning in the open space you were just saying that they cluster them in 30 so our our lot area is 30 uh 70,000 foot they would be able to do a 30,000 for a free bedroom and it was even small it was what down 20 what was that didn't you have 15,000 on the proposed plan I believe that's what well on the proposed plan I think in the original osrd proposal forom but we teered it wasn't 20 for two bedroom 30 for three bedroom was on the original that was the original we didn't want to go below 30 so we allowed 30 and 40 a deal on putting more houses on smaller lot absolutely he could put the same number of houses on half the size lot kind of like what what's going on at learon I mean he's selling you know 7 800,000 houses on 10,000 Lots I mean these wouldn't be 10,000 Lots but it wouldn't be but still you're making market value on much smaller LS but so learon is a 40b that had and so because it's a 40b they steamroll all the bylaws and none of it applies so osrd you know it would just be halfing half the existing zoning but he could put a building not necessarily a home he could like someone was saying they they could build a three story building but that would be with that would be 40b that would not be osrd it wouldn't be no no osrd would have to be a traditional house just on a smaller lot with you know building houses houses correct single family houses but if he could get 200 units with 40b and we're we're saying it has to be 60 30 however many less units I mean we'll see what he comes back with all right everyone's good any questions all right make a motion tojn make a motion to adjourn all in favor all board Isn say motion for the SEL Bo motion to adjourn motion all right all in favor motion hi always be 10 minutes or so cold I was thinking of turning the heat up and then I thank God I have my glasses on cuz I saw it was the for