Good evening and welcome to the personnel committee meeting. Today is Monday, March 9th. It is now 6:31 p.m. Um, I do want to apologize to my colleagues and the people in the gallery. I'm coming from a neighborhood association meeting that was very
active. Um, so I lost track of times. My apologies on that. Uh, voting members present. To my right, we have councelor Franklin Miguel. To my left, we have the vice chair um of this committee and the council, councelor Anna Levy, and also councelor Rosalie
Gonzalez. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2022, this meeting of the personnel committee is being conducted both in person and via remote participation. A reminder that persons who would like to listen or view this meeting while in progress may either attend here in the
city council chamber or view it on through our YouTube page. Uh councilors, can you please join me in the pledgece to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible
with liberty and justice for all. Council is going to have a motion to approve our minutes from the January 13th, 2026 and February 9th, 2026 meetings. >> Second. >> Motion has been made by C uh Council
President Levy. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Seconded by Councelor Miguel. Any discussions on the minutes? Seeing none, um all those in favor say I. I. Any nays? The eyes have it. All right, council. We have one item.
Item 60-26, renewal of contract. City Attorney Timothy Hooton. Uh, we have attorney Hooton today with us. Attorney Hootin. I'm going to let you open up and vouch for yourself and welcome again to the
chambers. >> So, um, Tim Hutton, city attorney, as [snorts] you're >> Oh, the mic is off. Uh Tim Hooton, city attorney. Um as you may or may not know, my contract uh that I'm currently under ends in March 21st
of this year. So I am requesting a two-year extension of this contract. Um it is the same contract as I've signed every time before except obviously the money is different and I keep adding the 3% that's allowed. So we're currently at 165. It would be one year. and and
that's that's reflected here in the current >> contract copy that we have in our >> correct. >> Okay. >> Um I did happen to notice and that under salary B there is a typo in that the written amount is different than the um
typed amount. So I will correct that but I just uh >> so which one which one is is the written or the typed? >> The the typed see the typed says 150 the written is 165. >> Okay. So the it's the 165 is the
>> 165. That's the correct salary increase. Um >> it reflects it other places, but I just I saw that typo, so I want to make sure that's correct. >> Okay. >> Um as you know, during my time as city attorney, there's been long stretches where I have been the only attorney in
the office. There is nobody else. Uh that's been the case currently now. I've been in the office by myself for approximately uh 13 months. 14 probably going on 14 months. Um I do believe that uh we do currently have candidates for both the
first and second position which I will be um presenting to you very shortly. Uh which would be great u as uh to the new counselors. Um what that does is when obviously I'm just one person um believe it or not we were supposed to start a
trial today that would have taken two weeks and being the only person in there that meant that my office would be closed for two weeks. I mean, there would be secretarial staff, etc., but I would have to be in Boston for two weeks. Luckily, we settled that case. That's why you need to have someone else in there. You need someone to cover
during my vacations because there's day-to-day operation. There needs to be questions answered either by the council, by the mayor immediately, and someone has to be there. So, um, right now I'm I'm hoping very shortly we'll be able to fill those positions, which also helps in the fact that one of the things
that I, uh, and I, the year that I had a first and a second, I had made a promise, uh, specifically to councelor and Fonte that I would, um, cut down on outside attorneys. During that one year that I had both attorneys, I referred
zero cases out. So, um, that's a massive savings cuz what we could pay for, let's just call it $100,000 for an attorney, we end up paying $4 to $500,000 an outside counsel. So, it actually makes money to have uh council in here. So, um
I've held it together. Uh the the office is still going, but it's it's untenable at this time. So, but um I think we've we've done a good job. I think that uh you know it's it's hard to say um you know what are your achievements at that
time but I think that we've settled the cases that should be appropriately settled. We've defended the cases that should be defended and the city has not taken any large hit that it was you know not expecting or not reasonable. So um happy to answer any questions about the
contractor about my job uh that you may have. How many how many cases total? Um the former the contract that's going to be expired by the end of the month at the two-year contract as well. >> Three year >> three years. So within the last three years year to date, three years to date.
Um off the top of my head or an estimate, do you know how many cases in total? >> Um on my board, which I I have >> I have a whiteboard behind my office. On my white board right now, there's 42 cases. >> Okay. So, and th those get replaced.
Now, some of those are as simple as they might be appeal of a zoning decision that I have to, you know, go to court on. Some of them might be a um you know, uh it could be a slip and fall case. Um some of them are major cases. We obviously have a wage act case that's
undergoing which is a police payment thing that u is probably one of the bigger cases going on right now. So, we have the wide variety. That's why it's great when we have uh other counsel in there because they can handle it. For instance, um I still have to handle the gun cases almost every Friday. So, I
have to go into the district court and handle an appeal if somebody uh is turned down on their gun license. So, uh there's a lot of things that need to be done and many hands could do that work quicker. >> Thank you. Um, councilors, any questions
or um, council levy? Council vice president Levy >> through you council vice council sh uh, so you're going to start tomorrow in uh, you're going to be in Boston from tomorrow. >> No, we settled the case. >> Oh,
>> that was an example of what was going to happen is today I would have left. I would have come back from Boston today and I would be gone for two weeks. So there would be nobody. But last week we settled the case. It's just a it's a precarious situation when there's only one attorney in the office.
>> Oh, okay. No, I said I saw that you're going to be in Boston from tomorrow for two weeks. >> No, starting it was today and last week we settled the case. So, >> you settled the case. >> So, we don't have to be in there. >> So, it's all done right now. >> It's all done. >> All right. Okay. Thank you,
council. Any further questions or comments? Um, council me are you hold sorry. >> Yeah. Okay. So, regarding the case how it was. >> Sorry. [laughter] >> So, regarding the case that you were
attending, how it was. >> Um, I I don't want to give we haven't signed on the line, so I'm not going to give you the exact details, but it was the Museum Square um parking garage case. We withheld a million and a half dollars from the um person that did the repairs on it and they obviously sued us
because we didn't pay them the million and a half but um I'm I will be happy to give you the settlement once it's signed so they can back out. >> Oh, that's going to be great. Yes, I would like to hear about it. >> Coun councilor McG. >> Yeah, through you shar. So, how many
attorneys do we usually have uh in the city in this in your office? It varies. They've had as many uh well before my time. Yes. Um they had six uh they had a couple some of them were part-time. Some of them just did uh for instance uh uh
contract negotiations for the unions. Some of them just did labor. Um so yeah, it's been as many as six. It's been um well, I've been city attorney. So when I first started, I started as the first assistant. There was the city attorney, me and one other attorney, and that
lasted for a while. And then unfortunately they made the unfortunately they made the city attorney a judge. So she left the um the uh second assistant became an HR director. For some reason second assistants seem to become very good HR
directors and so they you know how it is. They the city sees a need and finds another job for them. So >> okay. So right now is it just you? >> It's just me. >> Okay. So in case that uh this contract uh extensions um if the time you know like if it
doesn't pass in the time before the the end of the contract what would happen to the city and to to your >> I would stay I would stay on without a contract. In other words it provides that I keep going until I'm replaced. >> Okay. >> For that reason they would never um they would never want the city to be without
representation. >> Yes. So yeah, if if by any chance they decided that they didn't want to renew this contract, then I would stay until they proposed someone else. >> Okay. >> Any other questions or comments? >> Uh yes, through you, Madam Chair.
>> Councelor Gonzalez. >> Thank you. Um can you truthfully say that uh you have advised the council uh solely in the law or based on your opinion, your personal opinion?
It depends on the what the council is asking me, but it's always on the I advise the mayor and I advise the council on what is the legal and thing to do. I don't get to decide what's good for the city. In other words, let's just
say you decided that you wanted to, I don't know, give $5 to everybody in the city. My my job would be not to recommend whether I thought that was fiscally responsible, not to recommend whether I think you should do that. My job would to tell you, can you legally
do that and not get sued? So that's what I do. I've used this expression and I'm sure the the the senior counselors are a little tired of it. My job is to basically point out that there might be a fire there. Okay? Please don't touch it. But you are free as representatives
of the city to step into that fire. I don't physically stop you. I just advise you. So, I can tell you I don't think that's a good contract for the city. Um, but the city may enter it if it's not if as long as it's legal. So, I I give them my best my best legal advice, but you
are the representatives of the city. The people elected you, they didn't elect me. So, you run the city according to what you want. So, I never advise. My opinion doesn't really matter unless you know you ask me. There's two choices. Which do you think is better? I'll give you my opinion, but you don't have to choose either one, but I give you a
legal opinion on everything. That's my job. >> I think um if I may to to um provide an example, councelor Gonzalez, you weren't a counselor yet, but in December, we had a um and this is not to defend you. I'm
not defending you. making that clear, but it is a a live of a real life example that happened in in this chamber um where we were debating language in the city charter. And this was when
whether or not to take a vote on now school committee member Mike Armano and the pay and etc where you advised us and I agreed with you cuz I voted against it. Um the city charter stated
that no city employee should be receiving additional pay and um Armano is also has also legal background and you know maybe interpret that differently but you gave your legal opinion as to this is what the city's
charter states this is what I believe as as an attorney it it means um I agreed I I think there was other councils that agreed but ultimately at the and uh the council voted to allow him to get that pay. So even though he advises against
it, the majority prevailed. So that's a real life example of what happened uh in this in this chamber. >> Yes. >> So no, I'm sorry. I'm going to >> correct me. Yes. Does that happen? >> Open a can of worms. [laughter]
>> No, we wanted to hide him not to get a pay. >> Yes, that's right. [laughter] >> Yeah. So I think so that the pay is still pending because nobody agree on that. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah. Okay. >> So that that's an example. >> Okay. [laughter] Well, thank you for
your answer and councelor in Frante, thank you for the example, >> but yeah, he gave the right opinion on that regard. >> Okay. [clears throat] Any other questions or comments? >> Okay. Um through you, man, >> council president.
>> Um Okay. So the salary is going to be 3% increase. >> It it I've actually I believe it's slightly less. I just the 165 was a nice easy number. >> Oh, okay. And also the >> but the next year it would be the second
year would be a 3%. >> The second year. Okay. So it's going to be the 3%. So in all of the or other Okay, hold on one second. So everything is going to be the same regarding >> I didn't ask for I didn't ask for more
vacation. I didn't ask for more time off. I didn't ask for anything. As it turned out, I had like four or five days last year. I didn't even use. So what's the sense of me asking for more vacation if I'm not going to use it? So I didn't ask for anything like that. So it's the exact same contract. The only thing that's changed is the is the money's gone up to 3%.
>> So the benefit is going to be the same. So >> benefits are exactly the same that I have currently. Any other questions? I have a question for you, attorney. Um,
so we had an incident with the council where you provided us and a legal advice pertaining to the open meeting law. I think we all remember that. And mistakes happen. No one's perfect. Can you walk us through that moment, what your
thought process was and how you interpreted the that section of the open meeting law and um what you did to fix that situation with the council and also the AG's office. >> Okay. So, just so you're aware, there
was there were two open open meetings. There was one. Yeah, there was one that >> the regarding the city council in which Sorry, regarding the school committee in which one of the members of the school committee said, >> right? No, it's not that one. >> Just so we know because I like to pat
myself on the back. We won that one. We were correct. >> Okay. Thank you. >> He was not correct. Um >> it was the first one regarding um >> Yes. I >> that we didn't have to address it public. I forget what it was. So what h so what happened quickly what happened was that
>> the um city certain members during the political season certain members of the council put out a proposition regarding the uh because budget meeting last year was it was a mess. Let's just admit it was a bit of a mess. So they put out a
proposition um in writing but it was less than a full um so there's nine members once you have five you have a quorum so you are subject to the open meeting law so there was four that put it out so they were not a quorum so they
could put it out the other five then got together and decided to put out their own statement >> well we didn't get to get >> got got together and verbally verbally [laughter] got together and put put out a statement Um that statement became a violation of the open meeting law
because there was a majority of the council that deliberated even if it's just phone calls and deliberated on it. Um uh when I was informed of that and the state I was informed by the state um the way that you normally correct things I mean the state isn't here to punish you. The state is here just to to make
it remember the open reading law is to make sure everything's out in in public. So they said um so what I had everybody do is I had I had a meeting and I had everybody on the council please state what they said in private and um so that it would be on the public record and and
to cure it. Uh turned out that they wanted more uh my advice uh didn't go far enough because they wanted to make public any and all um written statements, emails, etc. And it as it turned out, there was only one line of
one email that was missing. And so we had to do it a second time and make that public in a public meeting and that that cured it. Again, you know, people make mistake. These there's a lot of rules, but uh we do our best to try to to help the council and and cure it. So my cure
didn't go enough, but we cured it up the next time once we were. But you know certain people and I I know I don't have to tell you this uh political foes and people with newspapers like to make a big deal like the city council is trying
to do something mean or intentional and and there was no malice in that and there was no malice in what the council did and and the mal and and the council tried to correct it. Nobody was trying to hide anything. I mean that's the part that gets me is that people so impugn to other people motives that aren't there.
I mean, clearly the city council was trying to do the right thing and they were unaware the first time. So, >> um, thank you. Uh, I had another question that just left my mind. Um, what would you say if you were to if you
if you were to if your contract were to be renewed for another two years? What would you say is something that you could improve on as a city attorney within the next two years?
>> Here's here's one which I would love to. Unfortunately, it involves money. Um, we get so many claims against the city for potholes, for um, cars being hit by snow plows. [snorts] God bless you. Uh, for
things of that nature. And I don't have money to pay those claims. Uh, I think we should set a fund aside that's more money. Um, the laws, this is a funny, the laws on our side in not paying, but some of
these people, I mean, you know, that's their only car. They they hit a pothole or something like that. Some of them deserve to be paid. I would love to I think it would be good PR for the city to pay certain I mean obviously we're not going to bankrupt the cities but I think if we had more money to pay small
claim little claims to the the citizens that would that would make my job because the the only people who I have you know come into my office threatened me yelled at me screamed at me are just regular citizens over the the littlest
thing you know that their their tire was damaged or something like that you know, because it's it's personal for them. And so, I think that I I would love that because I just think it would help the city. I mean, it does it need to be done? No. But I just think that's, you know, some some cities and towns have
hundreds of thousands of dollars that they throw at that just to to help the citizens. But I I I think that's something I would like that I think would help the city. Um, I think having the other two attorneys over the next couple years will really help. I think that the, you know, just the backlog of
things I you know, I have contracts. I have so many things that I'm reviewing and I feel bad when I put people off. You know, it's just the fact that I can do those things and obviously some things come up from emergency and I have to prioritize that and put that in first.
So, if I had somebody and then we could, you know, so that people would get things back. You know, I get people asking for positions. They really need positions, but I they they can't put it on your agenda without me reviewing it. And so departments sometimes go without because you know for weeks or months while I get to it because so I I think
the audit staff would also make the office run and make the city run quick. >> Thank you. But what is an example of something because two great great proposals uh one is financial which you don't have any
authority not authority but power over and also the two um I think power is the wrong term a jurisdiction maybe um and then the the two assistant attorney position that's subject through an interview process through this
committee and then a final vote um at the full council, which we never know what could happen, right? >> But what is something within your power that you believe looking back at the last 3 years that maybe moving forward that you can improve on?
>> I think I need to get more people involved in certain decisions that I make. I think that I I I think it would help me to get kind of coales to get a team if if I think something is
not the proper way to do it. I think that if I got, you know, had more meetings with people to to convince them like this is probably not the thing we want to do. We probably, you know, I I I don't want to say it this we probably shouldn't hire this person and here's the reasons why. Let me tell you why.
Um, uh, I don't think that we, you know, should go this direction. Um, you know, some some of these are going to get me in trouble, I know, but I I think that you the city needs help and a master plan on
what are you going to do with handicap parking? Um, because this city has no parking and if we allowed every handicap spot to come place, there'd be no parking for anybody else. Um, I think that probably parking is going to be a big issue in this city in the next few
years. And I think, um, yeah, I think I need to start doing more coalitions, getting more people involved than just my opinion and talking to the person that asked, but get, you know, reach it out. >> Your opinion or your legal opinion? >> Legal opinion. But I, no, as I said, my
opinion doesn't matter. But, uh, because I think that's the way the city is run. the city is run with a bunch of people and you know they have different knowledges and they they could do it but I do think that that's that's going to be a big issue. I think parking in the
city is already but it's going to be a big issue in the next couple of years as we can see. And I think getting uh I I think it can't just be me the person that's proposing. I need to get people behind me to say hey that's a great idea. This is this is what will work for the city. And I think that's that's
probably something I which it would give me more time if I had the other people in there that I could do that. The problem is I'm going from fire to fire to fire now. So I'm not be able to, you know, form those committees, >> right? Um I want to say that as a city
attorney, your opinion does matter. You may not. And I and I understand why. Um, I I spend my Thursday night deep diving into our ordinances
and um and I also take the time to read um our messages of general laws as you know sometimes I even pull it up live during meetings to recite. So the law is important. Now whether people, you know, the way people interpret a
law, that's a whole different story, but your legal opinion does matter. >> So, I'm just going to say please please stop saying doesn't matter because it does. >> Well, [laughter] I meant I meant I meant more of a personal matter, but what you bring up is another great thing. I just want to say that would be a wonderful
project in the next two years if there was a full office is to do a review of the ordinances because you're right >> you know simple simple things I mean even >> I I already have small modifications to put on the agenda
>> e even the sexism of he he he he as opposed to a generic you know things it should be brought up to the to the current town. >> Thank you. Um, councils any other questions or comments? >> I'm going to do a comment. Yes. >> Um, councelor love you. >> Thank you. So, we has to do into
consideration that most of the old have been created many many years ago. So I know that some of them has been reviewed a couple of years and I don't know see if some of them have been in place right now but uh as you can see
that most of the iron coming that we has to modify this ordering or the other one and we has to do this and we has to do that. So I think that is time for the city maybe to hire somebody especially an ordinance and go through each one of
them and modify. So time change the city is growing like you mention right now uh according to I'm hearing is like we had about 70,000 car registry in the city of Lawrence.
>> I heard that the other night too. So it's it is too much. Okay. But I think that we have more than 70 more car than the 70,000 because we have a car from some other
places that sometimes >> you have my car every day. I don't live in the city. So >> exactly. [laughter] And we had so according to the census we we had about 90,000 people. We have more than 90,000 people living in here in the city of Lawrence.
So yeah, it is time to start looking maybe what is going to happen in the city from now. But let me if I'm going a little back also and then what I read you know at
the heritage part is that the city of Lor has about 95,000 people living in here in the 1920 something. >> Really?
>> Yes. So the city had about 95,000 people I think. So that's 1928. Then they starting to immigrate from different places and the city came to about 40,000. But again, we are growing
and I don't think so that is it's not going back. We're going to keep having more and more people. >> No, I I don't I don't see the population going down that way. >> No, no, it's not going down. That's something that we need to start looking
and thinking you know about to get somebody especially um revising the ordinance and there are so many thing that has to be changed yes here in the city of Orange for future generation. So
my other question, how hard is for you like to get in term people? Um >> well, it's been very high, but I I believe we do have two candidates and again until we button that down and I'd be happy to talk offline, but I believe we now have two candidates that are
going to be presented to you for the first. I know for the for the first and the second attorney, but you said that at some point you have about Oh, that's the your office had about six people working. >> The the office, not mine, but the office
had about six. Yes. >> So, what about Okay, that you can have the two the two attorneys, but plus to get some intern. >> I would love that. I' I'm just shooting for the two now and if I that that's a home run and then if I can get more that
would be great. But yeah, no, I again, we can keep them busy, but I uh I'm happy to have a full office at this point and then we could work from there. But yes, >> okay. Thank you, >> Attorney. Now, I'm asking I guess a
legal opinion. Um throughout this contract I there's statements this the city council president is referred a lot as which makes sense because the city attorneys hired by by the city council and it's reference to
time sheets being approved um I just lost the page hold on a second let me um yeah travel receipts being approved and um termination through the city council etc. So essentially what I'm here what
I'm the way I'm interpreting this the contract is that your direct supervisors the city council slash city council president. So what happens if say the city council decides to renew this
contract and I see at the end um it's also required a signature is required by the mayor and the mayor refuses to sign this contract. What happens then? >> Okay f first let me tell you that um as
you may not have guessed I'm I'm nobody's fool. Um I've already run this by the mayor. So to cuz I'm not I would not take that chance of having you approve a contract, bring it to the mayor and have the mayor not sign it. So the mayor has already reviewed that. But the second part is
>> but say okay so hypothetically I'm going to say this has to happen. >> It it has what is the legal process for that? >> It has happened believe it or not in in the past um though I am uh employed by the city council uh I am paid by the
mayor. So the mayor signs the pay. So what would happen is sure I would be the city attorney with no pay. >> Got it. Understood. Unders. Because it has happened before and I was unclear on how that works the
you know legally and all of that. So that's good to know. Um thank you for that clarification. >> Can I clarify something? >> Um council vice president. Thank you. So right now, so you were three years. >> Two years.
>> The first the first time. Three years. >> Well, I I did a year two years. >> Three years. So I was a second when I was appointed. I was appointed temporarily as the fir as the city attorney for a year. >> Okay. >> And then after I was a city attorney for
a year, I had a three-year contract. And now this is a two-year contract. And prior to that, I was the sec I was the first city attorney. >> Okay. So the prior was two year two >> prior was three years which ends this March March 21st. >> Okay that's is what I say and now is two years two more years.
>> So from now on any time that we see we approve this it's going to be two year or two every two year. >> Oh whatever it can be two or three years at some point I'm going to get old. [laughter] >> So at some point uh that's one of the
main things I want to do is I want to make sure that I have succession planned. >> Okay. going to the question the council infant say uh regarding um the city council and the and the mayor but we if we approve let's say that we approve to
yes so the mayor also can say no I don't want to approve to yeah he can say I'm going to only approve one year what is going to happen >> that could happen it's not going to happen because I've already run it by the mayor >> but if that were to happen >> I I would have to come back to the city council >> would need city council approval
>> it would have to be city council It's there has to be an agreement between both parties >> because the council has to approve the contract. Um, so speaking of that, >> so why is this contract now three years? You just mentioned that you want to make sure there's a secession plan which takes time out of your daily
duties as we know um you have a lot of especially because you're running a a single attorney office right now. So why is this contract three years two years instead of the three years? >> I just think that I think the review in two years is a good at this stage of my
career. Uh I think that I can have the the office up and running in two years with people ready as long as I have people, you know, behind me. I think I can have it ready. Uh they >> or successor >> successor and the successor, you know, uh I I believed, you know, a year ago I
would have told you I was all set already. Uh unfortunately, that didn't work out. But so that's that's my plan. And I think two years is the appropriate amount of time. >> I would like to um actually thank you for that because what we see sometimes
is people want to hold on to things, right? And um there's so many talented individuals out there that deserve a chance too. And you're saying, "Hey, I may be done in two years. I may
not. If you're not, you'll become before the council again. But if you are, you're making sure that the office is ready for the next person should that opportunity occur in two years or whatever. >> And you also want you you want the council, not you being but the the
council to say, hey, maybe we want to go in a different direction or hey, whatever we have new counselors, you know, you don't want to be we try to do it so we don't burden the old administration with kind of workers they don't want. So I'd rather you say, Tim,
I like you. we want to renew. Then Tim, we're stuck with your contract. We're going to wait till you're done. >> Got it. Um any other questions or comments, counselors? >> Seeing none, actually, um before we move forward, we do have the on the agenda
executive session anticipating. Is there anything that you would like to address with this committee um that should go into executive session? >> None. >> None. Okay. All right. Well, councilors, at this point, I will entertain a motion.
>> Motion to send to full counsel with federal recommendation. >> Motion has been made by councelor M. I always say I always want to say councelor Franklin. Councelor Miguel, [laughter] seconded by councelor Levy. Any further discussion on this on this matter?
Seeing none, all those in favor say I. I. Any nays? The eyes have >> Thank you very much. See you next night. Uh councilors, we don't have any further matters. Uh so can I
>> motion to adjourn? >> Motion has been made. Councelor Levik >> second. Seconded by councelor Gonzalez. >> No discussion. All those in [laughter] favor say I. >> I. The eyes have it. Thank you so much counselor.