Heat. Heat. --------- [Music]
Mr. County Administrator, we are on a public hearing, the first one, number 23. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioners, item number 23 requests the board to conduct the first and only public hearing to adopt an ordinance amending chapter 13 of the Lyon County Code of Laws entitled Consumption of
Alcohol, Intoxication of Public Nuisances. The ordinance uh will establish procedures regarding authorization of alcohol at events occurring at county facilities. Further, this item requests board approval of a scrier's error to policy uh 06-1.
And uh we're recommending options one and two. And let me just check very quickly. Commissioners, we have no speakers on this item. >> Mr. Chairman, I move a staff recommendation. >> Thank you, Commissioner Mor. We have a second. Second by uh Commissioner, Mr.
Vice Chair O'Keefe. Uh any discussion? Mr. question. >> Real quick, just for people reading this and hearing alcohol and stuff like that, want to be clear, this is us updating policies so that in special circumstances like the cross country world championships, alcohol can be
served at the event uh at the county event and uh fireworks as well. >> Great. Um Mr. County Mer, I assume with this we'll update all our insurance policies and all that. Cool. Awesome. All right, we have a staff motion on the floor by Commissioner Miner, seconded by
Mr. Vice Chair. All those in favor of the staff recommendation signify by saying I. I. >> I. Looks like there's no opposed. Passes unanimously with Commissioner Proctor, Commissioner Maddox outside of the chambers. And then we are on next item. Mr. County Administrator.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Item number 24 seeks the request the board to conduct the first and only public hearing to adopt an ordinance updating the Lyon County comprehensive plan uh capital improvement schedule pursuant to Florida statutes. The uh CIS reflects capital projects identified currently uh adopted
in federal, state, and local budgets. This is an annual uh requirement of Florida statutes. It has no fiscal impact uh in and of itself. Uh and we're recommending option one. We have no speakers on this item. We have a motion on the floor for staff
recommendation by Commissioner Cummings. >> Second. >> Seconded by Commissioner Welch. Any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor of the motion on the floor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> I. Passes unanimously with Commissioner Proctor outside of the chambers.
>> Mr. Chair, let the record reflect that I voted in favor on item number 23. >> Got noted. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Maddox. Mr. County Commissioner number 25. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioners, item number 25 requests the board
conduct the adoption public hearing uh to adopt an ordinance amending the land use and mobility elements of the 2030 Tallahassee Leyon County comprehensive plan pursuant to section uh 163 of Florida statutes. Uh at your last meeting on November 18th, commissioners,
you provided policy guidance for specific updates to the land use mobility elements which have been incorporated. If both the board and city commissions um if adopted by both the board and the city commissions, the current land use mobility elements will be replaced by the proposed land use
element. Commissioners, as I mentioned, um you've received uh these presentations throughout the process. So staff um wasn't planning on giving a presentation on this specific item, but of course is available to answer any questions that you might have and uh of
course uh we do have quite a few speakers on this item. >> Mr. County, how many speakers? >> Uh we've got about 12. 12. Yes. Okay, great. Speakers, just remember there's a 3minut allocated time. If anyone needs a little additional time, just, you know,
just ask and I'll be happy to grant a little extra time. But um we do I do expect to have a good robust conversation amongst the commission on this item. All right. First speaker >> that was at last count about 16 or 17 now. So okay thank you for that Mr. Chairman's first speaker Craig Stevens
to be followed by um Alam Barnes. >> Mr. Stevens please state uh your name and address for the record. >> Uh my name is Craig Stevens. I reside at 2736 Summer Meadow Drive.
Okay, that's good. All right. So, uh, good afternoon, commissioners. My name is Craig Stevens, and I stand here today as a direct descendant of the men, women, and children buried in Car Cemetery at Bannerman and Meridian Road. Um, this is the resting place of my great-g grandandmother, my great great
grandmother, and their children. U, my great aunts and uncles. I never got a chance to meet my great-grandmother, so this cemetery is one of the only physical connections I have to her and the generations who came before me. Um, for me, this isn't just land. It's
family, it's identity, and it's one of the few remaining pieces of our history that hasn't already been erased. The county has already acknowledged the significance of this site. The GPR survey you commissioned confirmed grave locations and burial patterns consistent with the historical families connected
with this cemetery, including my own. Um, this work is recognized by the Tallahassee Leyon County Historic Preservation Program and the Florida Trust of Historic preservations for its archaeological and cultural importance. Despite that recognition, Car Cemetery
remains overgrown, unprotected, and inaccessible. And now with the upcoming Meridian Road improvements, it faces even greater vulnerability. I want this I want to be very clear. I'm not here to oppose development. I'm here to ensure that progress does not come at the cost
of erasing the people who help build this community. Beyond county has shown leadership by protecting other historic cemeteries during public projects, sites like Greenwood and Blackwood, Harwood. You have already proven that infrastructure improvements and
preservation can go hand in hand. I'm asking you to extend the same care here. Please include the protection and restoration of car cemetery in the Meridian Road development plan. Preserve access, establish boundaries, ensure this sacred ground is shielded during construction. Help us safeguard the
people who are buried here. Our cemetery holds the remains of early black residents of Lyon County. Some born into slavery, some born free. All part of Tallahassee's earliest story. Their lives deserve acknowledgement, not neglect. If this cemetery disappears, a
part of my family disappears with it. But more importantly, a part of our shared history disappears with it. When we preserve a cemetery, we preserve truth. We preserve lineage. We preserve a connection that future generations deserve to inherit. Um, so today, I'm asking you to choose remembrance over
eraser, dignity over convenience, and legacy over silence. because the measure of community is not only what it builds but what it refuses to regret uh forget. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Stevens. M Mr. K administrator, very quickly, do we do we know how many speakers are here to speak
on behalf of the the cemetery? >> I believe there was a few speakers. Do we know? >> Uh it's not um denoted on the on the on the cards, >> Mr. Chairman. >> 25 >> is we're voting on >> correct comp plan adoption, right? cemetery issue the marine road stuff is not
>> a part of the comp plan adoption right >> correct that's what I was that's what I was getting >> right this is not germaine >> Mr. committed pasture that that >> you asked for those. >> That's what I was asking right now. Who is here to speak on behalf of the the city issue relative to the cemetery? >> How many? >> I am Roland Wood and Rebecca Dicki.
>> Three. Three total. So, here's what I'm going to do, commissioners. I'm going to um >> No, it's right. >> Yes. So, joining across the street on the meridian road. So, it's it's in this area. >> I got I got commissioners. There's only three speakers on this item. What I'm going to do rather than have them wait
through 17 speakers, I'm going to allow them the opportunity to speak first. Um, and then we'll come back to the comp the item number 25, the comp plan update. >> One point though, >> of course. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I'm I was trying to understand the relevance though. I mean, I think was
trying to So, if the this is a part the comp plan affects this cemetery. >> Yes. >> Well, excuse me. Just one moment. I think I think potential development. It's important to note that our land development uh rules currently protect
historic cemeteries. It requires conservation easements. It requires access issues. So all of that is contemplated in if if the if the concern is about future development, then certainly that's contemplated. Um if not on this specific cemetery, however, if there are um any questions that we can
answer now about any anything else that may be in the works, I'm sure we can defer to our >> Sorry, Mr. One more time. just just from my understanding. So what you're saying is that no matter what happens here tonight because it it it's historic in nature, it will be it will be protected >> under our under our land development
code. Yes. >> Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Of course, >> chairman. I I've met with Miss Barnes, Mrs. Mr. Stevens, and others uh about this cemetery. And um one thing I' I'd like to do we could if this is
appropriate at this time is is ask our county staff to meet with um the representatives uh who have family uh at the cemetery and discuss with them what their options are. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. You good? >> Yes.
>> All right. So, commissioners, I'm going to allow the three speakers that want to speak on this item. Then we'll come back to um uh the item number 25. That way there's 17 speakers in front of them. I'm let them get out of here. >> Well, Mr. Chair, can I just clarify? >> Yes, ma'am. >> This the property that they're
>> that the property they're they're addressing us about the cemetery, it is part of it is encompassed in the comp plan. Am I correct, Mr. County Administrator? >> I believe so. >> Okay. Out out B out uh Meridian Road out Banam out that way. Absolutely.
>> And Mr. Chairman, this land has been part of our earlier discussions during the comp plan development. So it's >> is it was that was that a motion you would like staff to to sit with them or >> if the if the time is right, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make that motion right now um so that uh asking our county staff to meet with um Mr.
Stevens, Miss Barnes, and other representatives, Reverend Dicki, uh to talk about the car cemetery and their options available. >> I'll second that. Uh motion on the floor by Commissioner Mer, second by Commissioner Maddox. Any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor of this motion on the floor signify by saying I.
>> I. >> Awesome. Thank you. Do you three still would you still like to speak relative to the item? Okay, great. The the floor is yours, >> right? Okay. Thank you uh commissioners and the um county administrator
and I am here in support of the car cemetery descendants. There's a saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. So I have prepared anformational bullet that uh booklet that I will leave highlighting the
importance I think of preserving sacred sites for their human educational and historical value. Having worked on various African-American cemetery restoration and preservation projects, especially
those in earlier times, I find what is often overlooked is their significance to growth and development initiatives. This isn't the first instance of this subject being of importance when it
comes to historic preservation. They shed light on our social and built environments throughout the annuals of time. For that reason, the legislature in 2023 recognized the importance of these sites
and representative Pente Driscoll made available a modest grant to assist local governments and private entities with abandoned African-American cemeteries restoration projects. I was a member of
that task force and I made sure though to clarify that these cemeteries are not abandoned, though that's what the bill stated, nor are they lost. The descendants have a wealth of knowledge as to where their ancestors are resting.
And maybe they are subjected to desecration or neglect, but not lost. I'm amazed personally at the amount of history that exists in car cemetery and others like them. Many are on former
plantation lands when records were not adequately kept. Researching and documenting their origins and barriers I feel should be a key factor in land use and development initiatives lest we destroy one of our
greatest assets. the history of who we were, who we are, and what we can become. Again, thank you for this opportunity. This is in district 4, but we are asking for the support of everyone to um
um make this a priority as you look to future development in that area. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Next speaker, >> Reverend Rebecca Dicki to be followed by Roland Woodburn. >> Thank you. Good afternoon.
>> Good afternoon to each of you distinguished uh commissioners and our county administrator. Thank you for allowing us this opportunity to express our concerns and findings regarding the car cemetery located on Meridian Road and Archer Point Parkway.
The car cemetery descendants group is diligently working to seek funding and assistance from Leyon County and the Secretary of State to restore and preserve it. We are now at the point of rounding up descendants of people buried there to
assist in the initial cleanup of the cemetery in its entirety. We we don't we haven't find out the dimensions of it yet. We have some ideas. People have told us it's much larger than we think it is, but we we're trying to get it restored.
Um it is extremely important that all entities involved in the restoration of it are made aware that reportedly there are a lot of infant bodies of persons still born and or who died shortly after birth buried in car cemetery. During my
several personal visits to the site with different groups of people I have personally discovered new short graves each time. Governor DeSantis signed into law chapter 2023-142 laws of Florida to create a historic
cemeteries program within the division of historical resources. The law says in part that the most important point to remember is that all human remains are protected under state
law. No matter who owns the land, we must proceed carefully and gingerely during this period of discovery as this is a sacred site. All stakeholders must ensure that the final resting places of
our ancestors won't be desecrated. And that is I have um in-laws buried there. None of my personal my immediate family are buried there. But I have several in-laws who my husband's uh father is buried there. So, I know the
significance of people want to be able to visit this site and do it in a manner that that is going to be safe. The last time we went to the the cemetery, we found bear bear droppings in it. So, apparently there there are bears out
there now. So, we we just really need to be diligent in trying to get it uh set up in a place that can be visited by the many relatives who come. Lastly, the relatives of of who have um family reunions when they come from the
blockers area, the Banaman Road area, that is one of the sites they like to visit, go back and and visit their ancestors in that cemetery. And right now, it's almost impossible. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Next speaker, Roland Woodburn.
>> Woodurn. >> Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Roland Woodbury Jr. My father and grandfather is buried at the cemetery. I cannot add any more than what the rest
of them said, but I'm begging. Please help us do whatever you can and I appreciate it and thank you. >> Thank you all. That's it. Awesome commissioners. I appreciate uh your patience,
>> Mr. Chairman. As a point of personal privilege, um I want to ask Miss Barnes, uh do uh she enunciate relatives of mine buried in that cemetery. It's just a matter of personal privilege. Miss Barnes, >> Miss Barnes, you can you can approach if
you'd like. >> Miss Barnes, you tell uh this day our my kin folks out there, please, if you know. Well, when I was out there with them um three Saturdays ago, there was a grave of a Julia Proctor um car.
Yes. And in communicated with with Dr. Patrick Mason, he indicated that there was a connection between the Julia Proctor and the Rollins family. So, I would say yes. >> Very good. And I would like to just add
that there's a Wallace Carr out there also who was born into slavery. And Wallace Carr went on to become a public official. He was a state senator and he uh taught school. And so you you just have a mix of people who helped to
develop the city, county, and everything who were >> He was a AM preacher too as well. >> AM preacher. You're right. >> Very good. >> Yes. >> Very good. Okay. Thank you. Sure. >> Yep. All right, Mr. Minister, back. We're going to back on item number 25.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Okay. >> Yes, sir. >> So, I think part of the part of the what was asked for is is to help restore the cemetery >> and and help be some way collaborative
to work with the community to discover the bound. Um, what is what does the sit down with staff mean? Is it going to be an action plan? Is there going to be some money spent? Is there going to be some effort taken? >> Just to sit down and talk ain't enough. >> Let's ask the Let's ask the county administrator, Mr. County Administrator.
>> So, yeah. And I was just about to provide a clarification, commissioners, when the question was asked about whether this land was subject to any of the proposed comp plan amendments. uh it was at an earlier iteration when we had that USA boundary extension on the west
side of Meridian that no longer is in place. So this property is no longer in play. The specific property however uh the same development um protections would be in place on this cemetery in our land development code um at the
point in time when this uh property would be developed. Now I should point out again importantly this is private property. So this is priv private property again. So, what we'll do is we'll we'll sit down um w with the family members and interested parties. We're happy to do that, provide the best
information we can, including working with the private land owner if that's the direction of the board. And um again, we'll explore all alternatives. >> Great. Awesome. Thank you, Mr. Administrator. Good, Commissioner Proctor. Very good. Awesome. Cool. All right. We are now back on item number
25. And uh uh to our speakers, just want to give a friendly reminder. If anyone's uncomfortable with speaking, you can also wave in support or also wave in descent. Um, we have three minutes each and Mr. County administrator, first speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First speaker, Vivian Young to be followed by Anthony
Gadio. >> Mr. Chairman, point of personal privilege. Could we turn the heat up a little bit? >> Can we notice? >> Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. My name is Vivian Young and I live at 4 411 Oakland
Avenue in Tallahassee. I'm here on behalf of 10,00 Friends of Florida as the special projects director. We're a statewide notfor-profit organization founded in 1986 to promote sound planning and growth
management in our rapidly growing state. I'd like to share with you what our mission statement concludes with. Above all, we strive to give citizens a meaningful role in shaping their future of their communities and state. This is
what we have worked towards since 1984 is active citizen engagement throughout the process. To this end, we have engaged in updates to the Tallahass Helium County Comprehensive Plan since the first uh report was released in
March of this year. and we've raised numerous concerns about the um transparency and opportunities for citizen engagement. But tonight, I'd like to talk to you about some specific concerns. The amendments being voted on
you will allow significant new uh development with major impacts on natural resources, canopy roads, and taxpayer pocketbooks. Some major changes have only been discovered over the last week or so, raising questions about
transparency. Several updates will add close to 2,500 acres of land to the urban service area, which, as you know, legally binds our community to provide roads, sewer, and water, and other urban services.
These changes to the USA would be the second largest in 28 years coming only after Wani. There has been no detailed demonstration of need to expand the USA counter to the objective 1.1 in our
current comprehensive plan. Um while the developer will pay some of these costs for the new services, the taxpayers will pay for the rest. And to the best of my knowledge, there's been no analysis of this. As you may be
aware, under current Florida law, once these changes are adopted, there is no turning back. Future commissions cannot change course and take away these development rights once they've been granted. In this bane, we have a series of specific requests. One, save old can
uh St. Augustine Canopy Road from thousands of new residential units by removing the 1 uh 1,100 acre St. Joe property from the proposed USA. Two, protect the historic Meridian Canopy Road in Lake Jackson from potential
impacts by removing the 1400 acre parcel on the east side by Bannerman Road from the USA. Three, protect water quality in Lake Jackson, the Florida aquafer and uh Wakulla Springs by keeping current lake
protection densities for the uh conservation subdivision and lake protection node except for land within the US 27 LP corridor and remove harmful policies including policy 2.6.4
and 2.8.4 for subsection five which allow development increases. We cannot overstate how significant these changes would be. Under current law, if these are adopted, there is no going back. We thank you for your consideration of
these requests. >> Thank you. Thank >> Anthony Gadio to be followed by Carrie Gadio. Anthony Gaio, 2335 Grassroots Way. Um, I live at the Grassroots community which is encompassed in the southern portion
of this uh comp plan uh uh project and uh that's a 43-year-old uh community and it's one of the few developed areas in this extension in the southern area and I'm not prepared to talk about the north and I'm glad that that was discussed.
Um, my problem is with the process. Um, I've been involved in planning issues for over 40 years and I just found out about this a couple of weeks ago and it's uh had you used the property owner initiated comp plan amendment instead of
this um um comprehensive way that you're doing it, we would have been notified and we would have gotten involved in this a lot sooner. um uh the uh the impacts of a urban services area um
extension particularly on the south side where one owner owns,00 acres of the 1500 acres under consideration um uh and uh all the other parts are the cemetery and the VA cemetery and my community um
the impacts will be paid for by the entire entire community and the beneficiary will be that one land owner and so that one landowner should come forward and ask for a comprehensive uh plan amendment. Um also we should wait
until the impacts on the canopy road from the two developments on uh Southwood Plantation Road and April Road being done by Horton that was uh sold by St. Joe Paper Company uh to see what the impacts are on the canopy road. um all
those there's going to be 900 units in that and with no in uh increase or improvements to any of the transportation. Uh and it's already a serious problem right now. Uh you go there at uh 5:00 and at 7:30 at the
intersection of uh Appalache Parkway and um uh and Southwood Plantation Road and there's a big line and when those 900 uh units get uh built out, it's going to be quite a problem. So that all these things should be taken under
consideration and the impacts on the canopy road are a serious issue that you should consider. So I am suggesting that you stop extending the urban services area in this big macro way and do it uh uh have the uh the owners of the
property request it uh themselves. Thank you for your time. Carrie Gadio to be followed by Roy Knight. Hello, I'm Carrie Gauddio. I also live in the grassroots community. I have lived off Old St. Augustine Road my
entire life. Um, so that space is very very uh important to me personally, but I am honestly pretty disturbed by the lack of transparency in this process. I feel like for you all to appropriately
represent me and all of your constituents, you should engage us because our opinions matter. And I feel like it's been um uh a lot of kind of behind-the-scenes conversations and not transparent uh you know, good process,
which I know is something that is important to all of you. So, I'm confused why this has gotten this far in in this uh method. And I really hope that you will consider uh adopting a a different approach that properly engages your constituents that uh engages
appropriate analysis of the impacts where we can all review those analysis the the data. I think it's just kind of reasonable and logical um you know governance and I I really hope that you will reconsider um the approach that's being taken right now because it is not
representing um the people who are going to be impacted most by these changes and I know that that's important to all of you. So uh I I thank you for your time and I I do hope that you will reconsider. Roy Knight to be followed by Randy
Danker. >> Thank you very much for having me. Uh my name is Roy Knight. I reside at 5962 Centerville Road just outside the limit of the city in the county. Uh I am very
concerned about th this uh u this plan considering that it is going to go on for 30 years. So therefore I think it's very important that the correct plan the one that is
actually the best for considering the sensitivities and the feelings and the experiences of the lives of the citizens who've got to live with this plan and its future. What I see is damage coming if you follow what you have been
following. But I have come here primarily to offer advice about how to avoid that if you can possibly take the time to do that. I know this is supposed to be the t the final decision decision evening which I consider that to be most
important. When I first came in, I worried that I feared I was facing an iron wall that I would not be heard and that nothing would be done. But I certainly hope that it is. My big question is why you have not properly considered the actual numbers of the
experiences of the people instead of just the calculations of monies and numbers of population rather than the actual experience of the people themselves. I don't think it would be fair to the citizens to create something that makes them uncomfortable,
bad traffic, bad space, absence of rural open space. These things are not only physically harmful to life, they're mentally harmful because the result is things like Thomasville Road and the
traffic today. Seeing what was coming in my face as I was coming into town from Centerville Road, it is horrible. It's only going to get worse. I want to mention to you some sources that I have used to explain this
and tell you how far behind I believe Tallahassee is in its thinking. The first thing is back in 1909 the United Kingdom, England was facing this problem of massive citizen population growth and it was
doing just exactly what we should avoid and that is spreading out all over the place. So at that point they created an act and it passed that they were going to figure out a way to control that sprawl and they did. This in effect was
beginning of the real actual new town movement. So population could be accommodated with plenty of open farmland and rural space. But yet if you have been to England today it is absolutely beautiful. It is extremely well populated and everybody appears to
be happy and comfortable. Nevertheless, it is still difficult traffic-wise in London in spite of the underground and all of that. So definitely population growth is to be considered in Tallahassee. We know that. We know it's coming. We do not necessarily know how
much housing is provided for right now, which is already in the pipeline or where it is exactly and that has to be understood as being there for us to confront. But I do want to mention to you the plan that I believe is the one that Tallahassee is following.
>> Mr. Knight, um, we've extended your time. If you could try to get to the the finish point. >> The the main point is this Harlon Bartholomew who was the designer of the city of Vancouver, British Columbia, and Birmingham, Alabama in the beginning
early in the after the second after the first world war. They designed a plan that segregated races and ex and people. He designed a plans that extended roadways that created sprawl.
Both Birmingham and Vancouver have suffered those. I will come to my main point which is that is to simply simplify this plan for the purpose of it being comfortable to the citizens who have to live with it. because I do I do
really strongly believe that unless you follow that get off that plan and move to something more like Florida's own new urbanism the seaside and Alice Beach and so on and also downtown Mobile Alabama
that the new urbanists uh Dwani Andre Dwani and Elizabeth Platters Iber have done from Miami. >> Thank you. So, I do hope that you will consider this carefully. Consider 30 years of comfort for the citizens of
Lyon County and Tallahassee. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Knight. Before you call the next speaker, I just really would like to emphasize, please uh keep in mind your three minutes. We have a lot of speakers and I want to be fair to everybody um that they get their time. Thank you. >> Randy Danker to be followed by Dr. David
Handy. >> Good evening, Randy Dinker. Um, first I'd like to thank staff. They've been really great whenever, especially already in Susan. Whenever I've asked for any documents, they've been really helpful in providing them and explaining answering my questions.
And I have very seriously uh studied every document they gave me. And I'm sorry to say that I respectfully disagree with their assessment about uh what we need to be doing with the urban services area. Um, if it is adopted
tonight, we're going to be adding almost 3,000 new acres into the urban services agreement, which as somebody mentioned is the second largest I think that we've that we've had and with no demonstration of need. We still do not have a
calculation of how much um available land, buildable land is inside the current urban services area. And until we know that, how do we know we need to expand it? If we already have enough land in the urban services area, there
is not only no need to expand it, but it would be my legal opinion that it's not even complying with the law. Now, there's no cost estimates as to how much it's going to cost taxpayers to extend all these urban services to such
far-flung areas because as soon as you uh bring this land into the urban services area, you are legally required to extend urban services. That means sewers, lights, water, storm water,
roads, police, everything. and I have no idea what this is going to cost. And more importantly, you who have to make the decision don't know how much it's going to cost. So I would suggest that if you want to do responsible governing,
you got to ask the staff, how much is it going to cost the taxpayers, the public purse to extend all these urban services way out to these far-flung areas. and the um interesting that uh you know
I've seen um costs as high as 50,000 uh per home. So I don't know um if that's true or not, but I think we need to find out. Now there's been no cost benefit analysis. So what I think you all need to ask yourselves is if we extend the
urban services area, we bring these almost 3,000 new acres into it, what are we getting? What did the taxpayers get out of this? So, we know if you know how much it's going to cost to bring those services, the next question is what do
we expect to get back in taxes? And all of the studies, I have 80 looked at 80 studies that were consensus opinion was that these areas end up costing the county more than they make in revenues. So, you're going to end up paying not
just in the short run, but the long-term maintenance and servicing of these areas in perpetuity because this is a very inefficient way to grow. Um, thank you very much. I'm sorry I went over my time. I promise not to do that next time. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Thank you for the comments. Next speaker, >> Dr. David Handy to be followed by Jan Keshin. Good evening, sir. Please state your name and address for the record. >> Sure. Thank you for allowing us to speak. My name is David Handy. I'm at I live at 2396 Grassroots Way. Um, and
I've been a resident uh living off of Old St. Augustine since 1998. And I've watched the cumulative toll of one of our most cherished natural assets just destroyed. Southwoods development significantly increased traffic. The May 2024 tornado wiped out large sections of
mature canopy and the ongoing Dr. Horton projects are eliminating even more trees. The result is a rapidly diminishing resource, one that planning policy identifies as irreplaceable. This expansion would accelerate that loss beyond what the road or the canopy can sustain.
The county has not demonstrated a legitimate need for an expansion of the USA. State law 163.3177 Florida statute requires datadriven justification for any USA expans expansion countyy's population has grown by about
2.8% between 2020 and 2024 one of the slowest rates in the state even projecting moderate growth the county might add 50,000 residents give or take by 2045 far from enough to justify this type of expansion St. Augustine cannot support the traffic
volume. It's already falling apart. It's a protected narrow winding canopy road. Hopefully, many of you had had the chance to enjoy driving along it. It's one of the last intact canopies in the county. It cannot be widened and is already threatened by traffic from three approved developments. Adding additional
acreage to the USA uh would require multiple access cuts along a road legally intended to remain limited access violating both the county comp plan and the intent of state law. As the person who spoke before me was just mentioning
the fiscal impacts have not been analyzed. We have no idea what it's going to cost us as taxpayers and you don't either. The counties provided no evidence that these costs would be offset by future revenues or that this expansion is financially responsible. The environmental quality of life
impacts are significant. The proposed the proposal threatens unique southern ecosystems, canopy roads, and the rural character that makes this part of Leyon County special. Makes it why we live here. So, I'm just requesting that you vote no on the the proposed expansion. Thank you
so much for your time. >> Thank you, sir. Next speaker, >> Jan Keshin to be followed by Daniel Hollandin Jr. >> Good evening. Please state your name. >> Hi, my name is Jan Keshin. I live also in grassroots community. I've lived there since 1988.
Um, my neighborhood grassroots community and I stand in strong opposition to the proposed 1,400 or so acre expansion of the Tallahassee urban services area along Old St. Augustine Road. St.
Augustine Road is a protected canopy road which enriches our community and our joy of living as a citizen. I need to lift this up a little bit. As a citizen, I'm opposed to
the lack of data-driven decisionmaking and the lack of concrete evidence supporting this expansion. It is an unscientific and poorly justified proposal that is supported by neither responsible planning laws nor common
sense. As a taxpayer, I'm opposed to the added tax burden that constructing the required infrastructure about which others have spoken would place on local budgets, especially when it has not been demonstrated with data that such a
burden would be costeffective and ultimately would it be paid by the de developers or by us. As a resident, I am opposed to the destruction of the unique southern ecosystems, canopy roads, and quality of
life that make our city and county a place worth living in. Please stand with your fellow citizens, taxpayers, and residents, and vote no on this proposal. One more thing.
If you approve the expansion and allow this level of density without having in place the requisite protections to ensure the integrity and future of the canopy road, you will never be able to
ensure its continued viability. It takes generations for live oak trees to grow into a canopy. Once you allow the impacts you are considering, you can never go back.
Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Next speaker, >> Daniel Hollandin Jr. to be followed by Danny Jones. >> Please state your name and address for the record. >> Daniel Hollandan Jr. My address is 2395 Copacetic Way, Tallahassee, Florida
32311. Um, which is in the grassroots community. Um, uh, I think we've heard a lot of compelling quantitative reasons to vote no on, uh, this plan and also at the least to remove the expansion of the
urban services area from the plan. Uh, at least along Old St. Augustine Road is is what I'm here to object to. Um, so I just want to speak to the p my personal perspective on this. I'm a prof I'm a professor of engineering and one of the things that drew me to Tallahassee when
I came here 13 years ago was in general our trees. They remind me of Pennsylvania where I'm from and more specifically what drew my wife and I to the grassroots community on Old St. Augustine Road is really the beauty and natural wonder of this canopy road. Um
already my daily commute has the joy of it has been detracted by the the development that's happening within the existing urban services area closer to Capitol Circle. Um and I'm really deeply concerned about what the impacts will be
if if these urban if this urban service area gets extended to encompass my community and the surrounding area. Um, so I'm here with my son who is uh working toward one of his scout merit badges by attending this meeting. Um, we have he was born in Tallahassee. We've
raised him um in in grassroots and in in Tallahassee and we really love Tallahassee and the natural wonder and and I've seen it it gradually over these 13 years really be the uniqueness that we have be chipped away and and moving
toward something that looks more like South Florida. and I didn't move to South Florida and that's not where I want to be. I want to be in Tallahassee and I really strongly encourage you to protect our trees as at least our our live oaks and our canopy roads to the extent that we we still have them. So,
thank you very much for your time. I don't need my full three minutes. Uh, and I appreciate your >> Thank you so much, sir. Next speaker, please. >> Danny Jones to be followed by Danny Jones to be followed by Mark Mahoney. Thank you for this opportunity to come
and speak to you all. My name is Danny Jones. I'm uh happy to be one of the founding fathers of the grassroots community along Old St. Augustine Road. The only way the grassroots community
members are able to leave the community and enter into the to the rest of Tallahassee is by way of old St. Augustine Road. The last 40 years that I've lived there,
we've seen the the increase of the impact on along Old St. Augustine Road that it is probably more so um
caused by the development by a single developer in this community. We collectively at Grassroots oppose Southwood um plantation development
because of the impact that they provided to um do damage to Old St. Augustine Road by the number of traffic um the density of the traffic they
allowed to go to use as a backed road entrance into their community. The only traffic light on old s our section of old St. Augustine road is at Southwood
and Old St. Augustine and it was it's only developed there. It was only placed there to allow all the traffic to come from Southwood and utilize old St. Augustine Road and Southwood exit.
The development that's going to take place at uh Old St. Augustine and uh April Road will also do the same thing and increase
the the uh traffic load onto Old St. Augustine which is a substandard county road which by its nature cannot be widened or developed. We've been told that that we cannot have
bike paths or walking paths or sidewalks or fire service along that road. It's never been offered to the grassroots community because we were told that that li that that was limited on Old St. Augustine Road by that
developer. the C um are pro the amount of traffic that they're providing already. They're they are the primary holder of the property that's soon to be developed
under this USA and the the only ing e eress that is possible for that developable area is on old St. Augustine Road. Now it cannot sustain that. It cannot sustain the the
amount of traffic that is proposed in this. >> Sir, >> we'd like for you to consider denying this, revisiting at some later time when it could be looked at from the standpoint of the protection of that
canopy road. Thank you so much. >> Thank you, sir. Next speaker, please. >> Mark Mahoney to be followed by Wendy Grave. Good afternoon, commissioners. And uh I actually I'm not a great speaker out here, but um I've I lived at 8733
Palencia Court. It's in Boske Augustine, better known as Augustine Woods by some people that speak English. And uh I've lived off the Canopy Road for 25 years. And uh I don't really have a lot more to say about um the people that have talked
about the density, the increased traffic, the different areas uh that will be impacted by expanding the urban services area. So what I would like to consider I think what thousands of uh thousand Florida thousand friends of
Florida said is actually very true in terms of the density in terms of the uh increased uh amount of people uh cars traffic mental health etc etc. So, um I'd like you to actually uh consider
voting no on this and I think there's a lot more that needs to be done in terms of uh seeing what the impacts um would be in terms of cost and things like that. I mean, it cannot sustain that. I don't think we could sustain that as citizens. And I moved to Tallahassee
also to to live in uh tranquility. I was in the Peace Corps for four years and I like living around rural areas, you know, and that don't bring the uh urban don't bring the uh we need more urban infill as they were saying utilizing
those things. That's all I got to say. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Mahoney. Next speaker, >> Wendy Gray, to be followed by the final speaker, Steve Lightman. >> Good evening, commissioners. I'm Wendy Gray. I live at 1047 Meyers Park Drive and I'm here tonight on behalf of the
Alliance of Tallahassee Neighborhoods. ATN thanks the board of county commissioners and planning staff for their responsiveness to ATN's concerns regarding the need to preserve to retain the residential preservation future land use category.
staff has proposed language that is entirely consistent with the board's direction to protect existing legal nonconformities within residential preservation. However, we do ask for two minor changes
to policies that create two new future land use categories. One being suburban neighborhood and the other being urban neighborhood. These new categories allow much higher density than residential preservation
and in the case of urban neighborhoods allow commercial uses. ATN's concern is that the description of these neighborhoods, new categories allows them to be applied in existing established neighborhoods if there are
legal nonconformities. ATM believes that this language should be deleted, otherwise it might be applied to justify a change to a neighborhood's designation from residential preservation to either suburban or urban neighborhood. While
this is clearly not staff's intent, the inclusion of this language creates an uncertainty which reinstating the residential preservation category was attended to eliminate. ATN is already in discussions with the planning department about working
collaboratively to refine the plan after its adoption and to create a new zoning code. We ask the board to adopt this one change prior to adopting the plan to ensure that the intent of the residential preservation
category is unambiguous. Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Mr. Canister. Next speaker. >> Final speaker on this item, Steve Lightman. Good evening. I hope I'm not least from last. >> Have the best for last. >> And my name is uh Steve Lightman. I live
at 552 East Georgia Street. And in speaking to not knowing the uh cost of what it would impact on residents, uh I'd like to point out that a series of national studies show that
suburban low density residential provides less tax revenue than it consumed for public services and that the median ratio for every dollar in tax revenue generated, it can cost a community from $1.15 to $1.27. 27
and in Florida it's probably higher. Sprawl development incurs higher infrastructure costs than compact development due to longer roads, utility lines, the need for more vehicles, personnel to cover wider areas. So in
summary, compact development helps local governments maintain and improve fiscal solveny whereas low density sprawl tends to be a long-term financial burden on the taxpayers. And in regard to the comment by Brian
Welch, I see you're listening now. Uh that with sewers the pe although sewers are extended, if you're on a septic tank, you are not required to connect And because of the cost associated with it,
a lot of the times people probably won't. Thank you, >> chairman. That concludes our speakers. >> All right, commissioners. This uh the queue the queue uh screen is not working um by the way. So I'm I'm trying to hit
the request button. >> No. Commissioner Maddox want um wants to jump in. So I'm going to go to Commissioner Maddox on this item, but um in the meantime until it's fixed, could you guys put something up so I can just see? Um yeah, >> for the sake of discussion, Mr. Chair,
I'll move that recommendation. >> Second. >> Um with that said, um the last young man, Mr. Lightman, uh you you're correct about the uh septic issue. If the septic system
fails, then you have to hook up. If if you're if you're as long as the septic sept septic system is maintained and it's running appropriately, you don't have to hook up. But if it fails, then you have to hook up. So you you are correct on that piece. Um
I've enjoyed hearing everyone speak today. Um I moved a staff recommendation for the sake of conversation so we could get something going. Um, Mr. Administrator,
um, the the places that we are contemplating extending the urban services area are places that are deemed to be urban fringe. Is that correct? >> Yes, I think in this case, I think you're right. I know Michael and and Arty are here. They could elaborate.
>> Michael Arty, is there any place that we're we're attempting to extend the urban services area that's not urban fringe? And could you define what urban fringe is within our comp plan? >> Absolutely. So, >> is there a picture of u that we can see?
There's a picture of the map that we're talking about. >> Yeah. In your uh agenda materials. Um there are there's a map that shows the uh future land use map in your map series. I have that here. I can tell you which um which page of that it is or we can bring it up on the
>> we got 500 or 600 pages on this item. Sir, could you put it on the screen? >> Yeah. We we >> staff is fine. What page? >> 1875. >> While while staff is putting it up, you can answer my question though. My two specific questions were one, one, I want
you to define what urban fringe is, and two, if the areas that we're contemplating extending are within the urban fringe. >> Yeah. So, um I'll take the area near um near uh uh uh the intersection of Bannerman and Meridian Roads first. uh
the majority of that area is in is included as urban fringe. Urban fringe is meant to be an area that serves as a buffer between the urbanized area and the rural areas. It's kind of seen as
not in urban areas but as the next developable areas. um contemplation of extens of of any need for extension of of the urban of the USA uh the urban area the urban fringe was the first to
be contemplated within that within that uh thought pattern. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> Um so a lot of that area is urban fringe or urban fringe with residential preservation overlay. Um the area near uh uh old St. Augustine Road. Um, part
of that is in urban fringe or what will become rural residential. Um, the part that is closest to Southwood is uh currently designated as rural >> as is what >> as rural. >> As rural. Okay. Um, what's the justification? I mean, lot there's a lot
of talk about justification for for the extension. Could you talk to me about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So um the way we looked at it was uh this expansion uh originated with a 2003 committee the residential land availability and affordability committee. It was a
committee of various committee members, planners, environmental conservationists, uh real estate uh uh folks and land owners and it looked at a whole host of issues related to there not being sufficient land available for residential development. Um, one of
those recommendations within that uh uh uh report was to expand the urban services area in this area. Um, and it actually recommended a much larger expansion of the urban services area to
the south of Old St. Augustine Road. Uh this area was also recommended to us by our consultants for expansion as part of their growth scenarios identifying this is an area that as the community is going to grow this is an area that's
likely going to to have de uh uh seek to have development in this area. It is closer to the urban core than and adjacent to the urban urban services area than other areas that have been incorporated into the urban services
area and that have you know experienced higher densities that are further away from the urban core. Um there's development to the west with Southwood. There's development to the north of this area and there's already development to the east. So our rationale for this was
this area is likely an area that is going to seek to develop at some point in the future. >> Um it would be better it'd be good planning to ex ensure that this area if it were to develop would develop with urban services such as central water and
sewer and most importantly to designate this area as planned development. The planned development land use category. >> Define planned development. >> Sure. Absolutely. So the plan development land use category is intended to for large areas within the
urban services area be an area that is before any development can occur be subject to an approved master plan and the master plan is required to take into a number of things into account that's include that it identify how natural
resources on site will be protected. It will be it will require to have uh uh a transportation plan laid out showing how the transportation in internal to the site will impact the surrounding areas and how it will be mitigated. It'll
require how to uh identify impacts to the surrounding area and how the developed development in that master planned area will protect things like natural resources and canopy roads. Um so the idea is that if we designate this
area as master as plan development that before any development can take place there is the requirement that there is a master plan created for this area that it would then be presented to the county for adoption that would have to lay out how any future development in this area
is going to address a number of the things that you heard folks speak about tonight. protection of environmental resources uh uh uh extension of the of planned roadways such as Orange Avenue uh any development in this area southwest old St. Augustine Road will
have to extend Orange Avenue uh to uh uh to serve that development because it's been identified in the comp plan incident adjacent to that area. How many how many how many levels of review will that master plan go through and ultimately am I correct in saying that master plan will have to be approved by
this board or by commission? >> You are correct. Um so it would initially it would need to be reviewed by staff for consistency with the plan development requirements and the master plan requirements and also consistency with the entirety of the comprehensive plan. Um, it would likely be something
that goes to the uh planning commission in a a public hearing type format and would also come to you all in a either agenda item or public hearing type format where you all review what is proposed as part of the master plan. And ultimately you all as the deciders are
the ones who say yes, we like this or no, we don't. We're not approving unless X, Y, and Z are taken into account. This is a board that believes in transparency and communication with our constituents when we're considering such things. There was a couple of comments that were made that uh we have not gone through
the proper stages to make sure everybody was informed. Could you could you could you tell me about how uh what the process was here as far as public information and public app uh opportunity to comment on the comp plan
um changes we're looking at today? Yeah, absolutely. So, most recently, I'll focus on the community meetings that we held uh throughout the summer uh in the unincorporated area. >> Particularly, was the grassroots community uh made aware of these opportunities? >> We we staff did not reach out
specifically to the I'm sorry, say it again. >> Said no, staff did not reach out specifically to the graph grassroots community regarding these changes. >> Okay. Well, how exactly was was were citizens notified? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, we worked with uh County CMR to make uh uh uh information
about the community engagement events that we held on this available to the public via social media. I believe they put out a press release about it. We had numerous interviews with local news uh regarding the community engagement events. We went to community the
community centers where the events were going to be held. We put up flyers and we met with folks attending events at those community centers telling them about uh the upcoming uh community. >> So, it wasn't specific to communities that were notified, but the the general
public was notified and able to come to these events. Okay. Thank you. That's correct. Um Mr. Chair, I'm almost done. Course. Um >> there was a lot of concern about Canopy Rose and as I understand it, canopy roles are some of the most protected roles or one of the most protected roles within Leyang County. Um,
does what we're doing today contemplate changing anything in the uh realm of our protections that we have for Canopy Roads? >> No, sir. >> So, those protections will continue to be there. >> That's right. So, the comprehensive plan uh makes very clear that uh there are
strong limitations on new cuts to canopy roadways as well as the Lyon County uh land development regulations for properties served by roadways other than the canopy road. It requires that they utilize those roadways. Uh it requires
the utilization of existing uh access if there's already access. It requires the joint use of that access and it significant and it and for properties that are served by other roadways it does not allow them new cuts to canopy roads.
>> What's the projected population growth in the next 30 years? >> Uh I believe it is about uh 42,500. >> Can you estimate I mean do you have estimation how many households that would be or no? >> I believe it's 23,000 is the residential demand for that >> within
the area that we have right now. folks in the audience, please, we we were all very quiet when you guys spoke at 3 minutes. Please do not interrupt our commissioners. Thank you so much. >> And I want I want the I want the general public here to understand. I want you guys to get the information that you're asking for. And a lot of these questions
I'm asking or specifically the things that you asked them asked us and so uh such such I want to get these answers from staff uh as as I should have these questions cuz there was a lot of concerning things that you said. I'm comfortable with with the way you're answering these questions, but I'm going to continue to ask these questions until
I'm satisfied. >> Sounds great. >> Um, now, how many households are contemplated within that? >> Uh, in terms of households, uh, it it's 23,000 additional housing units are needed by um
>> Okay. 23,000 households, 42,000 people. Correct. >> That's right. >> Okay. I I'm wondering another question that was asked transportationwise when you're thinking about the congestion that could happen on Kyby roads as a as a result of intensity of of development
that would go with an extension of urban services area was that contemplated one two the increase of of cost to the community versus the developer could you speak on that for a second please >> yeah so I'll just say for the old St. A longstine road. The level of service is
currently identified as D on that roadway. Meaning it can go down to a level of service D and still considered being a you know within the the it is currently operating at a level of service of B meaning there are no
capacity issues. um the recent the uh recent the developer developments that they have identified uh the Weldon Farms and Citrus Grove developments, those have been taken into account when projecting those numbers. Um in terms of
the benefit cost of the of the extension of infrastructure versus the amount that it pays off over time, I'll defer to place director RD White on that if that's all right. and specifically what what costs what what estimated costs to our constituents are we looking at in the in the uh in intended um extended
boundary area. >> Uh thank you commissioners. Good evening. Um so when we look at the extension of infrastructure and what that typically costs uh something like a taxpayer um you know one of the reasons why we you know proposed and support
higher densities uh is because you have to extend infrastructure a shorter distance uh to serve a larger population. Uh however that being said uh the way particularly and I'll speak more towards city utilities but TAquin
is very similar to this as well. Um you know when a development occurs the the initial uh construction and provision of that infrastructure is uh on on the the responsibility of the developer. So uh that doesn't cost taxpayers to to put in
that infrastructure. uh once the infrastructure is in place uh kind of excluding roads the you know for this part um when we look at things like water lines, sewer lines uh the the maintenance of that is built into
uh the the rates that uh the people who live there pay. So when you get your utility bill uh and you're paying your you know water bill and your sewer bill and all of that uh that accounts for the long-term maintenance of that infrastructure. So uh again uh the
general population is not u uh paying for the new infrastructure. It's it's it's the users. It's really uh userdriven. Uh roads are a little bit different. Uh those are funded through a lot of different mechanisms including uh some of it is the gas tax, some of it is
general fund. It really depends on um you know kind what type of road it is. And so there's uh state funding for it, federal funding for certain roads. Uh and so those are a little bit different of an animal. Uh they have a variety of uh
sources for funding those. Uh but your typical infrastructure is is paid for by user fees. >> Final question. I'll make a comment, Mr. Chair. Um timing. Um we're going to grow 42,000 people, 23,000 households. Why is this the right
extension? Now, one of the things I've heard is there's plenty of room. There's no reason for us to consider it timing wise, but eventually we will have to consider this, but why now? >> A couple different reasons. Um, and uh looking at each part of the community,
it's a a little bit unique. So, when we look at the the area north kind of meridian area, um you know, that's really not part of population accommodation. Uh, and I say that because we're not changing the the the
land uses for most of that area. We're reflecting uh the development patterns that are there and it's really to uh plan longterm for water and sewer. Uh this is an area that is located between Lake Jackson and Lake Ammonia uh in kind
of splits the the the two basins. And so, you know, we what we're proposing isn't an increase in the amount of population that could uh be accommodated there. We're not increasing development potential in that area. What we're saying is when the city and county and
Talquin and other utility providers providers do their infrastructure planning, this is an area that they should take into account. >> Uh we should plan long-term. You know, again, this plan goes through 2050 uh for sewer to be extended in that area uh
because it's a sensitive area and it should uh grow and develop um with the the existing entitlements in place. We're not increasing them. Uh but that development should occur on uh central water and sewer uh and not on septic tanks in this area. Again, we're not
proposing an increase in density in this area. when we look out uh on the east side of the community, um you know, the reason why I think now is the time for that is again wanting to be proactive
with planning. Uh you know, making this change doesn't now mean that all of these additional units could be built. Uh what it means is a master plan will be required before development can occur. And we want that master plan because we want to know that any
development that occurs in this area specifically accounts for environmental features. It specifically accounts for canopy roads. It specifically accounts for the extension of Orange Avenue uh which is the the road that would need to be built uh for development to occur in
this area. Uh Orange Avenue currently like stubs out to the area that we're proposing. So uh it's really a matter of being proactive with planning and not reactive with planning. >> Thank you, sir. Mr. Chair, I'll make a brief comment. Um, planners plan. That's
what we ask them to do and they make decisions based off the logic of what they've seen uh in the maps that they're looking at. And also from what I understand here today, uh previous plans that were made by uh community community
members uh that set both environmental, business, friendly, and everybody um that sat together and said this is the plan that they would like to see enacted over the over the next 50 years within our comp plan. So um we're they're they're doing what we asked them to do,
uh what previous commissions have asked them to do. And so for that I I appreciate what staff has put together and the logic behind which they put this uh comp plan amendment together. We have the ability to sit up here and then make a decision based off of um balancing
uh what plan what our planners have done through logic and reason with what our constituents uh are asking us to do based off of uh what they see. uh maybe not know as much as the not knowing as much as the planners but but emotionally
being tied and cared about caring about the communities that they live within trying to balance that can be tough sometimes. Um what I hear what I heard what I heard Arley say is that the decision that we're making today does not increase density. It gives us it
gives us the opportunity to get ahead on the master planning of these specific areas that we're looking to increase the urban services area. None of the things that you fear happening happen without our consent. Ma'am, it does unless these people are lying to us. And I don't
think my staff will lie to me. I I don't know that what we're doing right now and I'm going to listen to commission discussion on it. I don't know that what we're doing right now is moving too fast.
I kind of agree with the with the sentiment of we're planning for 42,000 people with 23,000 households over the next 30 over the next 30 to 40 years. What area of town are we looking if we have to if we have to put those people
in other places? We need new dwellings. It's not saying that people can come into these areas if we extend it and just do anything without our consent. The piece that makes me comfortable is that the master plan will have to come back to the commission before anything
is built. The piece that quite frankly makes me uncomfortable is the fact that I have community members here. They're just not ready for it. I think that the fear that you have is warranted because there are there's a piece of uncertainty
about what commissions may be here and what they may deem okay when it's time for that development to happen. I think the thing we have to make peace with is that eventually eventually we're going to have to extend the boundary and when that happens the same
process will be in place. So, I I'm I'm going I'm going to listen to the rest of the commission. I don't think I don't think that what the planners are asking us to do is is not a I don't think it's a bad idea, but I I am trying to balance the emotion with the emotion and
reasoning of of the constituents I'm listening to with the logic that I'm hearing from staff, and I think it's very well thought thought out. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you, Commissioner Maddox. Commissioner O'Keefe, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'll start
with just a few questions. Um, the this goes some of this confirm my understanding because as we we met, thank you for your time. You've been great with extra time breaking this down for me. Um, and I learn something new
every time we meet. Uh the land use code on my my questions are mainly about four parcels that are make up 1100 acres along Old St. Augustine Road and they are treated differently than than any
any of the other parcels because of the single owner and the size of them being over 200 acres. sold just contain my questions to that um because I have no issues with the other um expansions that are of smaller amounts
throughout the we I call it the finger that's going around the the map there. So the um the land use code the future land use does change for these this currently uh
future land use for these four is currently rural which is one home per 10 acres and the it becomes master plan um by way of our vote because that's our policy for things over 200 acres with one owner
that uh we talked about what those densities might be. And to be clear, those densities don't automatically become the maximum of for plan development of 200 residential units per acre. >> 20 res >> 20. Thank you. This is why. Thank you.
20 uh resial units per acre, up to 25,000 square ft per acre of office or commercial, and up to 50,000 square feet per acre of storage. So we don't automatically the land use code changes to to grant somewhere up to that amount
but that follows in another master plan process. >> Yeah. So the land use category puts those as maximum caps on those uses. The master plan will identify which of those uses would be proposed. It requires that there are four different uses included
as part of the master plan. And are there uh what we get to vote on master plans that come back. Is there any limit to what we can consider when we vote on whether the plan that comes back fits the community
or the environment or do we have the authority at that time to go we like this, we don't like that, we don't like that, we like this. >> Yeah. So, as long as your decisions are consistent with state statute and our comprehensive plan, you all as the ones who will vote to approve or not can
decide not to vote to approve something if you don't like something that's within the master plan. >> Now, if we we we have to follow our own comprehensive plan. >> That's correct. >> Which is what we're voting on today. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um the
normally we've only made this global change. We've never made this global a change in our land use, right? Since 1990. >> That's correct. >> Okay. And are any other parcels in the county
getting this treatment of coming into the urban service and becoming planned development because of their size and ownership? >> No, these are the only ones. >> So these are the only four >> that size level. Yes. >> In the entire county. >> That's correct. >> Okay. And we have plan developments all
over. Right. Those go through a indiv a separate individual amendment process where they apply and they have to follow certain rules. >> That's correct. All comprehensive plan map uh amendments go through the established process. Correct. >> And so every plan development that's
been built since 1990 has applied individually and to if they are to apply to be in the urban service and become a plan development. They've all gone through that individual process. >> If they were not if they were not identified in the 1990 comp plan as plan
development, subsequent plan development, if there were any that came into the comp plan, they had to go through the comp plan process. There was one that I actually was the lead staff for around Charles High School that applied for an expansion of the urban services area and to come in as plan
development. And after we vote on we vote on today, anyone else in the future who wants to go from outside urban service to inside service urban service to a plan development has to go through that individual process. >> That's correct.
>> And that's the one where you send out notices to neighbors and you have specific analysis and it goes through that process. >> That's correct. the noticing requirement uh and the analysis that we go through as part of a comp plan amendment process. It's focused entirely on that
specific parcel. A lot of that analysis that we that we look at as part of the comp plan up uh amendment process, what the current transportation system is, what environmental features are, we did that broadly for the community as part of the land use mobility element update. >> Thank you. Those are all my questions.
Absolutely. though. Um, again, this is for for the commissioners. This is on page, if you want to look at the map I'm talking about, it's on page 1875 of your materials, and I'm only speaking to the 1100 acres uh, one owner that would become
plan development. Um, this is not so much about blocking development. It's about one owner getting to skip the line and avoid the process that every other owner goes through in the past and will go through again if for the new people.
Uh when we voted to prevent the westward expansion of the USA near Meridian Road, we set the precedent that we didn't want individual land owners to get slip into the urban service area and increase density without going through the normal
process. Um the old St. Augustine Road area expansion follows the same logic. And so if we remove the 1100 acres of proposed urban service expansion along Old St. Augustine Road, which is all held by one owner, that's no different
than what we did in the what we voted on in November um for the area west of Meridian Road. And that's precisely what we need to do in this case. Um, if this land owner wants to get this change, uh, I want them to go through the same fair process that every other land owner goes
through, an individual application, and we move forward with that. It's the same thing every developer before and every developer after will have to do. >> I said a second on that. >> Thank you. I'm coming with a good motion. Um, all right.
>> Um, uh, so these four parcels are the only parcels getting this treatment. uh by way of their size in this entire change. Um and you know I agree we need plan development and especially higher density development for our housing
inventory but plan development needs to make sense and go where it belongs. Uh where roads can handle it, the environment can handle it and the infrastructurees there. And we don't know how a planned development
that is somewhere between zero and two 20 units uh of residents per acre um and all that possible commercial um will impact the canopy road. But in individual amendment process, we do get that localized study and information. And so I think when we're making
planning decisions for the whole community, we ought to expand the urban services area and increase land use along major roads and infrastructure that make sense of which there are even in my own district.
We don't need to put possibility of 20 units per acre of housing, 25,000 square feet of commercial per acre or 50,000 square ft of storage per acre on a protected canopy road when we have other
major roads. An individual owner of more than 200 acres, in this case, 1100, should not slip into the urban services area via the one land use and mobility update we have ever done since 1990.
The motion I'm going to make does not prevent these parcels from being brought into the urban services area or getting reszoning to a plan development in higher density. It just makes them apply through the individual amendment process. I'm going to ask that you all vote to
consider removing this as part of the countywide update. Let this land owner follow the same process as all others. And so with that, I'd like to make a substitute motion that we accept option one, but without the urban service expansion and land use change on the
1100 acres owned by one owner on the four parals on Old St. Augustine Road. >> Second. >> Thank you. >> All right, commissioners. We have a substitute motion on the floor moved by uh Mr. Vice Chair, seconded by Commissioner Proctor. Is there a discussion? Commissioner Welch, I have
you in the queue. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so, you know, this has been confounding for me, uh, as we've gone through this process of this 30-year comp plan
uh, rewrite. You know, if you recall, I feel like we've been going through this for I mean, what we talking about? A year, eight, nine months. I mean, years. >> Well, years in the in the contemplation of this, but you know,
>> years in the land use. >> Yeah. But, I mean, as as commissioners, you know, we've been sort of had our eyes on this for a while. Yeah. The speaker mentioned transparency and commissioner Maddox sort of spoke to that. Um, you it says in the item very clearly that we first chewed on this in
May of this year. So, you know, six months ago, this specific stuff, um, as I have said multiple times, I am I I think the biggest threat to our community
is our frustration with accepting that we have to grow in this community. We have to grow. And so when you look at this comp plan rewrite and you you look at you know initially it was all infill
that was creating the problem right we can't we can't possibly convert you know land uses in in inner city urban areas to multifamily or you know condos or anything like that. Everybody was up in arms about that, right? Lafayette Oaks,
Lafayette Oaks and um and uh Los Robels, these these historic neighborhoods are going to get destroyed by infill and and that and so there was all that frustration and now we have resorted to
calling specifically and I'm going to talk about both the the southern expansion and the northern expansion contemplating being contemplated. We are now calling
the southern expansion sprawl. Sprawl. You're talking about a property directly next to Southwood where there are 3,000 acres and 2,000 homes
and no development would occur on this property without a master plan. So this the talk that they're doing something that other land owners haven't done. Every landowner that wants to develop a property of this scale has to go through
a master planning process. I'm reading right here in the item for the properties designated as plan development. A master plan would need to be adopted by the board for these properties prior to development activity. The master plan requirements
of the plan development. require that the master plan shall provide for a development pattern of the area that is less oriented to the use of automobiles and include things such as how natural features on the site will be protected, major transportation system improvements
that are consistent with adopted transportation plans. This would include showing an extension of Orange Avenue through the development, which would alleviate traffic pressure on Old St. Augustine Road impacts to surrounding areas and protection of canopy roads.
How the development will reduce transportation demand by allowing for internal trip capture and project buildout through a mixture of land uses and how the unique characteristics of the area including cultural, environmental, and historic resources will be addressed. As such, any
potential development for this area will be required to go through an extensive public vetting process and require that the board adopt a master plan for the area addressing the raised concerns before any development may occur. That's
in the document. Okay. So to say that development next to Southwood is sprawl, but then to say development in Los Robels is is inconsistent with what we want in terms
of infill. This is a perfect encapsulation of the paralysis that we are experiencing this in this community that has a waterfall effect on things like affordable housing, the things that we contemplate
trying to fix constantly. This property near Orange Avenue, near Southwood is not going to realize those densities that were mentioned. No, I mean nowhere near that. Nowhere near that.
So to call it sprawl and to say that it's going to have these massive densities, I think is incredibly unfortunate because that's not based in fact. We talk about affordable housing in the community. We have to build housing in
order to create affordable housing. This property next to Southwood is going to facilitate affordable housing because the houses that will be built there will allow for less expensive homes that are older to be
vacated so that people can move into those less expensive homes. So, I feel very bad for our staff because we put them in a in a very difficult situation in which we we
they're trying to thread the needle here with how we grow in this community, but we are so gripped by fear as opposed to like objective facts. Like nobody wants any new housing in
their neighborhood or in their backyards, but we we don't get the luxury of operating like that as policy makers. Every person who lives in a house, that house was built by someone. Now, we want to demonize the development
community and we want to we want to use these terminologies that scare people and Orange Avenue will have to be extended for that property to be developed. You're cheap. Old St. Augustine Road is not going to see the traffic densities that have been alleged.
Orange Avenue deadends right into it if you look at the map. So for me, that seems like a completely reasonable place to expand the urban services area so that you can get those
urban services into an area that you know at some point is going to be developed. And then you compel the property owner to go through a very rigorous master planning process. This is similar to what we've done many times in this community. I assume Southwood
went through a similar process. Bannerman Crossings went through a similar process, right? We we want to build walkable, dense communities where people don't have to drive cars, they don't have to make road trips, and that's what the master planning process provides. And so
this is just a step in that direction. This is responsible, reasonable, fair planning principles being employed here. And people don't like it because they're whipped into a frenzy about growth, growth, growth, and and density, density, density, and traffic, traffic,
traffic. So on the southern properties, you know, Orange Avenue empties into Capital Circle, Capital Circle empties into Appalache Parkway. These are big four-lane super roads. This is where
good planning, good planners would say, "Hey, seems like this is where you would sort of do a preemptive urban services area expansion." Now, I know Commissioner O'Keefe's motion, substitute motion did
not address the Bannerman issue, but I think that's another perfect example of how the facts are being overtaken by fear. I've been receiving emails from 10,00 Friends of Florida and and
Alliance of Talson neighborhoods saying, "Oh, well, you know, that that urban service area expansion is going to ruin the lakes. It's going to increase the densities." It does the opposite. It does not change densities. There's no contemplation of changing densities in
that parcel east of Meridian Road. There's there's no current urban services provided in those areas where this would allow them to be provided. So that when those densities that already exist are
realized, these houses are not on septic tanks, which would protect Lake Amon, would protect Lake Car, would protect Lake Jackson. Yet we get whipped into this frenzy like this is going to create more road trips and it's going to create pollution. It's going to ruin the lake.
No densities are being proposed to be changed in that location. And like it literally, it's a status quo situation. and it's making the properties consistent with the neighboring uses that are already on urban services. So
again, good planner is going to look at that and go, "Well, that like seems like a no-brainer." Yet, it's met with acrimony. It's met with concern. We dealt with an other with a different issue, Commissioner Miner, right? Which fairly had some question marks on it,
right? And we dispensed of that as this board, but now this other side of the roads got roped into it. I mean, it's so confusing to people that we had folks in here, you know, worried about the destruction of a cemetery that is not even contemplated in any of these comp
plan. There's no development like pressure on the cemetery. The status of that cemetery is unaffected by any of this yet. They're concerned about that and and they should have been initially, right? But that's been dispensed with, right? They they thought it was in district four, you know, it's in
district three. it's on the other side of the road. So it's like we as a policym board have got to get to a place where we are reasonable about how we grow where we are objective about the realities of our
professional staff who have spent years in the macro and months in the micro working on this stuff to facilitate what we know is going to have to happen to Commissioner Maddox's comments. We we
are we know people are moving to our community. We know we have to provide housing for them. We know that we have an affordable housing issue. We know that these things have to happen. No one has ever told me where they think development should go.
I I don't know. I would love to hear where folks think development should go because I guarantee you when you identify it, the people around there are going to come in and be upset about it. And so we don't have the luxury of looking at it like that. We have to be
pragmatic. We represent our districts and as a whole, as a board, we represent the entire community. We have to facilitate growth. We don't build enough homes here. We don't, you know, there's a lot of college kids living in
mid-century homes off Tharp Street that could be beginning homes for families. But we have to move people out. We got to get people the ability. It's all connected. We have to give people the ability to be mobile, to transition. These master plan communities provide
multif family housing. They provide starter housing, they provide, you know, family housing, they provide estate housing, and then they provide nursing homes and assisted living. I mean, they're they're they're designed with a
lot of intentionality to capture every phase of life. And that master planning process is incredibly rigorous. I mean, I think you could fairly state it's pretty rigorous, right? Uh tree mitigation and and storm water
mitigation and and those are all good things. We do really good planning in Lyon County. We do really good permitting. We are really really cautious about the environment and how the developments we build impact the environment. How storm water impacts the
lakes and how sewage or lack of sewage impacts water quality and and quality of life. We do that really good in Lyon County, really well. Yet we have the hardest time moving some of the the most
fundamental in my opinion items for growth and development. I have no doubt that when this project whenever it comes back to this board for a master planning comp plan amendment,
it will incite vigorous debate. It will there will be many many emails sent. There will be many many people in the chambers who will shape the outcome of that master plan. It's not like this board or any future board is going to be
completely insensitive to the concerns of neighboring communities. But we don't have that luxury to just stick our head in the sand and say no, we have to facilitate this. It's it's incumbent upon us as a board to
facilitate progress. true progress and the animosity towards this entire comp planning it cycle or whatever you want to call it rewrite has been just filled with the frustration that you you
probably hear me expressing. So, um I mean I'm open to listening to more, you know, opinions on it. Uh yeah, I appreciate Commissioner O'Keefe's substitute kind of pulling
back and focusing on the the the parcel where I think there's some debate you can have as opposed to the Bannerman parcel which is in is firmly in my district. Firmly in my district and if it were if it were upzoning or changing densities or going to add, you know,
10,000 trips to Meridian Road, I would be up in arms. But it's not. And and I don't think that this parcel near Southwood is going to either. Certainly not in the mid in the in the medium
term. But in the long term, I have faith in our good planners and our good staff and our good commissioners and our good community to shape that master plan into something that they want at that time. But this is a 30-year thing. This wasn't
Southwood wasn't built in 1990. So, you're anticipating now that Southwood has been built, the genie's out of the bottle there, you got 2,000 homes right there. And Orange Avenue was extended to accommodate those. And it just dead ends
into this property where I'm sure when Southwood was contemplated, that was the idea that we would just extend Orange Avenue again to provide homes. Homes. Okay. Everybody has a right to a home. Everybody has a right to a place to live
and we have a responsibility to facilitate that they get that. So, Mr. Chairman, that's my comments. Um, I'm not likely to support the substitute motion as I seconded Commissioner Maddox's uh original motion and and I
think that it is a reasonable approach to dealing with this issue. Thank you, >> Mr. Proctor. You're recognized. >> Mr. Chairman, thank you. Um I um note that uh some of the comments have been made today uh uh by commissioners. I may
differ a little bit. Um just want to say that uh Commissioner Welch that um today um I believe was today's newspaper. Um I don't know if you saw on the front page that uh the city contemplates
selling um the capital city uh cemetery which is augmented with a golf course but it was a cemetery before it ever became a golf course and that some black people came down here today of all days concerned about
expansion urban services. Um, there are plenty good reasons that maybe most of the people in this room don't care, can't feel, but we we going to see a a cemetery sold potentially tomorrow.
Black folk in it. That's why people were here tonight. If nobody else picked that up, no cemetery is going to be sold tomorrow. So people came down here about their own loved ones uh aware of the the capacity of uh of a
local government to um in terms of the use that word before the business of how they do business. They will sell black dead people period. So it it ain't like we we you
know people dumb. They're concerned empathetic. That's why they were here cuz a cemetery is going to get sold tomorrow and they don't want their kin folk and I don't want mine sold with no rules. another subject, the um USA uh
line. Um, if there's one thing that I, no matter how many white people come in this this chamber to argue for or to argue against the USA, one thing, uh, in the 29 years that I've
sat here in year 30, um, the USA line don't mean a damn thing in the black area of town. and all these promises of what it will bring sore
we can't get uh we just can't get it. So it is a race specific uh piece of language and it in practice in practice the de facto reality is that
the USA does not apply to black neighborhoods and areas and it just don't and and I see Miss Gray here tonight. Wendy, it's good to see you. And I think that to the plea being offered by Commissioner O'Keeffe, uh,
our director of planning department from a couple thousand years ago, but the, um, the, um, exquisite plan required of St. Joe, I think his
name was Tim Edmunds, I believe, was the uh, uh, principal uh, representative for St. Joe. And they had to actually number the the golden aers. They had to go out there and count uh
the turtles on the ground. They had to take the inventory of the trees and the different species that were environmentally required for for uh St. Joe Southwood to to to occur. And it was
uh much accountability, excruciating. So to the point that you're raising it, it has been with razor sharpness that Southwood was brought online and held accountable thanks to Miss Gray and
the Department of UN back then. And I think it was a PUD. Is that right? A PUD. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um, >> huh. >> Wendy, which was it? P U or DRI? DR.
>> Dr. All right, I live with that. Um but it was absolutely they were forced to index all of the environmental features and they had to actually move and were responsible for
transporting uh I think this uh the turtles the golden aster or something. The eagles had to be known and you know birth certificate brought up here for the who the eagle's mom and daddy was. It's just a mess.
So I think that what you're asking is that for the parcel of dirt though it's next door to Southwood it's coming in with a complete pass it has absolutely no examination that
Southwood was examined and all of the features environmental features were ascertained. Um but to bring 1100 acres here hadn't gone through one thing um that is not a compatible
um pre-exam if you will or um um indexing of what they're bringing or what they're going to snuff out environmentally that hadn't been examined. So,
it's seeing Miss Gray tonight that I can um think about the rigor applied to that area. Now, on a white area like Southwood where the USA was extended,
just like the book said, we got all these pages right here. Just like the damn book say, you're going to get this, you're going to get that, that that that. It happened. But it was not also um it didn't hurt that a man named um Jup Bush
um took an interest in St. Joe property and thought it not robbery to relocate um state agencies to Southwood. that butress um the value of the property
um the promise of uh Episcopal school um the movement that of Florida high school out there gave it schools and I believe the county threw a school out there and it was on and popping just
like just like just like it's supposed to happen by the book but in the black area don't happen like that we that area still ain't got no um um sewer um lights and sidewalks. It's just racist is what
it is. So, it pisses me off um quite frankly uh to see words that apply only to white folk. It don't apply to black folk. and my observation. Now, Miss Attorney Randy Dinker was here
earlier and uh hey, Miss Dinker and um Miss Dinker speaking from York District Commissioner uh Welch um was one of the litigants who we faced I think 27
lawsuits to actually expand and people were crying, no, we want to keep the rural character of our area and folk did not want um coals uh Publix. Um they did not want Target,
they didn't want Banaman Square, and I was told that um that I mean the ABC store, the liquor store was desired, but the rest of it they really didn't want up there. And uh that nobody wanted to admit it, Commissioner Cummings, but
they wanted ABC. It was amazing that urban um use the word sprawl if that's the right word but urban expansion grew um child school came up there and they fought no no no
no and what I'm saying is that planning uh there's an invisible element that has nothing to do with this commission has everything to do with staff and the people who are the applicants and who seek to move here, move there. By the
time we get it, it's a rubber stamping. The real negotiations does not happen in front of us. It doesn't happen long before. And to see opposite spectrums of Southwood and St. Joe going through
the grind and to see um with city support, with county support, we were behind. and to see Miss Dinker and those neighborhood groups trying to fight and resist um two different reactions to growth,
two different reactions. And then tonight, what's more troubling, Commissioner Welch and Commissioner Keith, your districts, is how recommendations that are geographically different with different
dynamics, different histories, can come to us as if they're one in the same package in the same box. It's like trying to buy my daughter and my son's Christmas gift and put both of them in the same box. I They can't do that. that
ain't going to work. And I believe that this should have been decoupled. The 1100 units on the should have been decoupled. There's a total different history undergirling that. And they have not met the test. They have not met the test of Southwood, period. They've just
not. But nobody knows that but me and Vince. And Vince ain't talking about it. And I'm about to shut up. But it didn't happen. Wendy knows. and then to the urban services area. Um, moving up on Bannerman, the people opposing are not
here tonight. The only people here with opposition is on this east side. So, I want to respect and I'm supporting the substitute motion because one, those people did not jump through the same hoops. It has not been examined. It's
not been vetted the same way. It simply hasn't. And then there are people here, citizens, taxpayers, not the future taxpayers, the people done paid already forever. Them, they worth respecting.
And I don't hear oppositional voices on the expansion on the north side. So them people can read. Them people got computers. They sharper than we are. They sharper than the staff. It's enough
lawyers and judges and whatnot. If they didn't like it, that goddamn they will be here tonight raising the L. They're not here. So, I have a comfort level. Um, they're not here to mass, but I have a comfort level that their absence
signals um their acquiescence or agreement with what's moving forward. So, th for those reasons, Mr. Chairman, uh that's that's why. Now on the notice thing um the notice staff that um
grassroots did not receive. Is there a different requirement that this is a corporate comprehensive plan submission versus an individual um um seeking um what's the notice uh
requirement when what's the distinction of a notice uh in this situation and why why shouldn't it be if there is a distinction? >> Sure. Absolutely. So for a individual property seeking a land use change or
resoning for that matter, there is a,000 ft uh mailing noticing requirement uh for that property. So all properties within a,000 ft of that property would receive a mail notice. We also would
reach out to nearby homeowners associations, neighborhood associations to let them know about that. It's we did not mail out notice to the entirety of of Lyon County. We tried to get word out through other means to to ex to let
folks know broadly. >> Okay. I'm not sure county attorney if we followed the very letter of um the expectation sometimes the spirit of the law um the spirit of what is right to do. Um,
and it really don't matter whether or not this was staff driven or if it was an individual person. It's the same piece of dirt and the same impacts whether Goldilocks applied for
it or Donald Duck. Um, the Ducks get an exemption, Goldilocks don't. It don't matter. has the same impacts and that notice requirement should not have been waved should not have been relaxed and to that extent um I'm very sorry that
citizens were not necessar notified properly and then the question that was raised by commissioner Welch where should development go where um commissioner if I'm not around uh I
want to answer that question tonight again develop ment should go to the area that we have an invitation from the president of these United States. It should go to the national forest and the
federal government has been beckoning for communities to walk up and take the federal forestry to take land off the hands of 500 billion acres and we have that. We have national forest. I think
that wall color has shown an attitude about going after it and have actually Walc color's commission is seeking that opportunity. Where should development go? I've been saying it for years. The
federal government ask would be my recommendation. And it's not too late for us to gather um um what's that word? consultants or whoever to get an application together that we just get the federal government to give
us all the land on the south side that's called federal I know you don't want in your district but I want every every every stick every twig every hanging malls in district one that's where affordable housing can go I make that suggestion to answer my colleagues
question I got two other commissioners who haven't spoken yet >> yes sir >> okay awesome Thank you. Um, Commissioner Cummings, you're recognized. And Commissioner Miner. >> Thank you. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um,
I enjoy listening to the commissioners. Commissioner Pro. I think one of the things we recognize that we all bring our experiences, our collective experiences, our backgrounds to the DES. And I think it it shows it, you know, in
our comments, in our rhetoric, in our response to the citizens that come before us. So, I want to thank the county administrator and his staff for this particular agenda item. I also
want to thank the citizens of Southwood uh out north Meridian Road Bannerman for their diligence uh and their concern about the expansion of the urban services area. And I just
want to ask a couple of questions about the about the expansion. Um, if you will, I'm at attachment 12. >> Mhm. >> If you can look at attachment 12 and I
believe it indicates the blue is O St. Augustine Road area. Then there's the green that's crossed out Old St. Augustine Road area as well. The bottom looks the same, but it's blue
on my map. Okay, you've got it turned around. Okay, so the blue area is that's the Southwood area that encompasses the what, 1700 acres or so.
Yes, ma'am. In this area, we are proposing to expand the urban services area about 1,700 acres and contract it uh approximately 300 acres. >> 300 acres. Okay. And I think you said you gave you gave notice to property
owners within 1,000 ft of the proposed USA expansion. So when we have a standalone amendment request for the urban services area expansion or a land use change, that is when we do that thousand foot mailing because this was a
holistic communitywide effort. We used social media flying uh getting information out on the news to try to spread word of of uh of this effort. Um for this most recent round of of engagement that we undertook. So, if this property owner had submitted a comp
plan amendment, then those I guess property owners or residences within that proximity would have gotten specific notice. >> They would have >> Yes, ma'am. And they would have and and I I would just like to point out that this expansion, that blue area, it
includes a number of other properties as well that are privately owned that would be in brought into the urban services area as well. Did any of these property owners request was there any request formally informal to be included? No. In the urban services area? >> No ma'am.
>> Now what is the difference? Say if if the board does not approve this particular recommended expansion, the city has to do something similar. >> So we this whole plan correct. >> Yes ma'am. So we would we would request
very specific direction from the board as to the precise change that they are making in adjusting the urban services area in this area. Um the urban services area it's different from if you were be changing the land use in the
unincorporated area. That's something that you all have sole jurisdiction over for the urban services area. It is a joint policy and so it requires uh the county or sorry the board and the city
commission to essentially adopt the same thing. Um we would seek direction if you wanted to deviate from what staff is recommending. We would seek direction that specifically what areas you don't want to include and a specific statement
that but the rest of the urban services area or any other adjustments you just ask that you make clear if you were good with the rest or if there were other adjustments that you would make so that we can be very clear when we speak to the city commission tomorrow evening.
the board has made these uh uh uh uh decisions when in in choosing what to a boundary to adopt and then present that to the city commission for uh their decision-m. >> So the decision of this board goes to the commission before their decision.
>> Yes, ma'am. It goes to the city commission tomorrow evening >> and you know in speaking with the the county attorney and representatives from the city attorney's office >> essentially if there's agreement on 90% of the urban services area
we view that as both boards being comfortable with that boundary. If there's not an agreement in a spe over specific parcels, we would view that as not approval of that specific change and the the boundary would revert to what is
there today. Um but yes, uh and I will say that um you know we in presenting the the materials to the city commission in September, we indicated that and granted the focus was on the area near Lake Jackson. We indicated this was in,
you know, the unincorporated area and that what we would present to them would reflect the direction that you all gave us. Um, the direction that you all gave us at the November meeting was to maintain this boundary in this area and to adjust the boundary near Lake
Jackson. And that boundary that you are presented with tonight is the same boundary that we're presenting to them tomorrow evening as well. So if the board tonight doesn't accept the proposed expansion, say for instance in the Southwood area,
>> would annexation be a possibility for the property owners? Could they turn around and request annexation? >> So the decision whether to expand the urban services area or not is an independent decision of annexation. it.
Um they could seek to annex into uh uh the city uh whether you propose this expansion or not. Um the whe whether they are in the city or in in the unincorporated area, an adjustment to the urban services area
boundary would still need to go to both boards for approval. >> It would go back >> Yeah. for to both the board of county commissioners and city commission because the urban services area is considered a visual depiction of a
written policy >> but the annexation wouldn't be that would just be with the city. uh annexations do come to the board of county commissioners and and I will defer to either the county attorney or to Arty to to kind of discuss the
parameters in which you all what decision-making authority you have in that regard. So if a property owner were to file a petition to voluntarily annex into the city, that application would first go to the city, but under the interlocal
agreement that we have with the city, it would have to come over to the county. The county could object to it if there were a legal basis to do so, which would which would trigger dispute resolution under the interlocal agreement between the city and the county to try to
resolve their issues. But there are statutory criteria uh that are considered in determining whether an annexation is legal and that is historically always what the board has considered when annexation requests have come to the board for approval and
what the board has made its decision based on. So they would go to the city and they would come to the county for approval. >> Thank you. Thank you madam county attorney. Uh, one of the things that I guess I think we lose we've lost sight
of is the projection by the planning department. This is projected through 2050 I believe. >> That's correct. >> Based based on the needs, the housing needs. So, it's projected that by 2050 we should have another 41,000
or so residents in this in Leyon County. And and it's projected that >> and that's the that's the statutory required medium population percentage or projection. Yeah. >> Okay. And projected that
we would need another 23,000 housing unit in addition to what's needed now. >> That's correct. So I I guess my point is if we agree to
extending the urban services area is not really saying anything is going to happen next year or 10 years from now. This is a projection for 2050. >> That's correct. And at this point, uh,
do we have any applications at all or any, uh, plan unit development applications or any plan comp plan amendments from anybody for that particular area or out of North Meridian for that matter?
>> No. Do we anticipate or have we I know we don't have any formal apps uh but have we gotten any indication that there might be some applications from any builders or developers on any of this
property >> on on the properties near Southwood? No, ma'am. >> Okay. Outand perhaps? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. All right. Um, commissioners, I I believe
we have beat the horse. I think we have looked at at all avenues. And one of the things that gives me calm and gives me pause is that nothing can occur on any of these properties that we are talking
about bringing into the urban services area until a master plan is submitted to the planning department uh specifically in the Southwood area. The master plan must include
how an extension of Orange Avenue would go to the development to alleviate um traffic to alleviate any pressure on St. Augustine Road, St. Augustine Road. And I think perhaps
um I believe our planners would probably make it a criteria or perhaps mandatory that that extension of Orange Orange Avenue uh would prohibit any ingress or egress from St. Augustine
Road that's not already that's not already not already there. Um, and the one thing that I like about the master plan is that it would require notice to all the property owners. It
would require extensive public hearing, extensive vetting. And what I hear from the citizens in Southwood now is that that did not happen in this particular process. And I think to uh the defense
of the planning department that's not part is that part of the process now because we don't have any plan that will adversely affect or impact uh St. Augustine Road right now. >> Can I'm so sorry. Could you repeat the
first part of that question? But we would anticipate some extensive I believe vetting >> um on any plan proposal on any of these areas where we are proposing to extend the urban services area.
>> Absolutely. There we would there would be the noticing requirement uh similar to a comp plan amendment where we would notice property owners of the master plan being presented. Um there would be multiple public hearings or or you know opportunities for uh uh vetting at this
board and also at the planning commissioner local planning agency. The the master plan is almost like a mini comp plan for this area. Um once the master plan is approved it the only way to develop the master planned area is through a planned unit development
process which essentially establishes unique zoning districts for the master planned area. That process would go through the public noticing and public hearing requirements at the the planning or uh that would be the planning commission and then this board as well.
And then once they wanted to actually develop the areas within the plan unit development that would go to the site plan uh level and there would be noticing requirements and public hearings for those as well. There are numerous steps along the way for the
public to get uh awareness of proposed development in these areas as well as to have their say and then ultimately multiple steps along the way for this board to ultimately be the the approvals or not. >> Okay. Let me just ask you one more question follow uh
>> in the vein of uh Commissioner Maddox's question and his concern since we hear concerns from residents tonight that they felt they weren't involved in the process. They weren't given they weren't given notice. They found out about it. We've gotten a
tremendous amount of emails uh and phone calls and texts uh in reference to the USA expansion. So, what what is the detriment with not expanding the
USA right now and just allowing property owners to submit a comp plan, a comp plan amendment where there would be citizen involvement, resident
involvement, uh a very stringent vetting process and everybody would feel that they have a part have taken a part have been involved in that process. What's the difference between waiting for that to happen and moving forward with the proposal now?
>> Absolutely. By making the decision to expand this and put this in planned development today, you ensure that this area will be master planned. There's always the pro the potential that at some point in the future, if these property owners wish to develop, they
subdivide the property. they seek to develop it at the standards that they have now where they can do one unit per 10 acres that would likely uh result in development in this area on septic versus on central water and sewer. Making the decision today to uh make
this change now and put it into plan development ensures that this board has complete oversight of the future development of these parcels. But ultimately the decision is yours. Thank you. I I appreciate that. Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Chair. On
point. >> On point. Yes, sir. Uh >> to make sure the motion is specific to to be clear, four parcels. And if it helps, I can read in the partial numbers to the motion so that he has exactly what he needs if we approve it. >> Could you could you restate that?
>> Sure. It was commented that if we pass a substitute motion to convey to the city, planning staff needs to know these specific parcels we're not including. And I wanted to be clear, the motion is four partials and I can read the partial IDs into the motion should it be
>> successful. Cool. Could we just submit it to the record like Okay, we just submit it to the record. >> Um, Commissioner Miner, you're recognized. Thanks for your patience. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. I've got I've got a couple questions and then a comment. Um, first question is for Mike. >> Mike.
>> Hey, Mike. How you doing? >> Um, so early on when you first started speaking, you mentioned that there was a a citizens group that met and analyzed the urban services area and that they recommended expansion. Is am I correct in hearing that? >> That's correct. >> When did that take place?
>> 2003. >> 2003. 22 years ago. >> That's correct. Um, I want to ask Wendy Gray, who was a member of that citizens group, could could you please come up to the microphone and describe that that citizens group and what the findings were and how they apply to 2025?
>> Commissioner Miner, what's the recommendate? What's the ask? >> I'm asking Wendy Gray, who served on that citizens group that uh, Mike Alfano referenced, to talk about that citizens group and their findings. >> Okay. Can we just can we keep it brief? I don't want to get, you know, out of hand. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes, sir.
Um that citizens group was a uh self- selected group of citizens who got together and included many people who were active in the development community and the environmental community at the time. The things I would point out about the committee was that there was a very
detailed analysis about the availability of land not just the demand but where potential development could occur. It was also occurred at a time when there was significant pressure to develop on the north side of town and a
lot of interest in trying to encourage uh more development on the south side of town to try to balance that out. And the third thing I'd like to mention is that um the um
I don't know that we have the equivalency right now in terms of what's being proposed in terms of densities and intensities in this plan development that were in place at the time that this recommendation was made. In other words,
the language, I believe, really referred to the suburban future land use category, which allowed for considerably less density than the 20 units per acre. So, I think that there were significant differences. And while the issue of affordable housing remains, um it probably would have been appropriate to
to update that um and to place those recommendations in the context of what we see in terms of land use patterns today. Thank you, >> Miss Miss Gray. How what what is your personal opinion on on
the need for USA expansion now as opposed to 2003? >> Commissioner Miner, she had three minutes to speak on this item already. So, you asked a question, not a question, but her she already gave her personal opinion on this and then we're going to that opens up for everyone else to ask their personal opinion again.
>> All right, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. >> Thank you, Miss Gray. I appreciate it. >> Mr. children. Um, point of water, Miss Gray brings an ex an an insurmountable expertise, reference, historical
awareness. Uh, I'm not saying she qualifies as an expert witness, but among the living, she is as much of an expert. >> True. >> Who could speak to the subject matter, Mr. Chairman? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's nothing against her at all. Commissioner Miner asked said he wanted to ask her a
question because she served on it and then we get into the point of what her opinion is. Well, then we owe everyone else another opportunity. >> That's fine, Mr. Chairman. It's okay. It's all right. Thank you. Thank you very much. And you're right to keep things going. Appreciate it. >> Yes, sir. >> Um, so the the citizens group that this whole effort is based upon
was came to a conclusion 22 years ago. Uh not to say that the findings of that working group 22 years ago aren't applicable now, but it probably would have been good to actually update that finding that conclusion because what happened 22 years ago not necessarily
applies to 2025. >> Just want to point that out. >> Uh second question is um so we we've already said that u 23,000 housing units are needed between now and 2050. Um, I
want to ask either Mike or Art, uh, Arty if they could come up. Can one of you speak to you said additional housing units? What does that mean? Does that include the housing units in Milani? Does that include So, it does not include the housing units in Milani that are >> No, it does not.
>> Does it It does not include the um the housing units that are currently in the pipeline or Exactly. what is the the 23,000 additional housing units. >> So that recognizes that in order to accommodate the population growth
>> that we need 23,000 additional residential units. >> I will say that the in the data and analysis section where it talks about in on on in your item I'm going to go to the correct page if you'll bear with me.
It talks about not only do we need the 23,000 additional units, but we have a shortage of rental units in our community and a shortage of housing available housing supply today. Attachment
uh I believe it's five in your in your agenda. the res the the vacant and developable lands. >> Uh uh >> that identifies all the lands in the urban services area today that are vacant and potentially
developable. So it identifies that there are 21,000 acres of land today in the urban services area that are developable. So with all that land that is a developable, we still have a shortage of a housing supply, a shortage
of rental units, there is clear indication that the market is not providing the amount of housing stock that we as a community need. So while and and in taking that just vacant and developable lands, we took out land use
categories that are not really appropriate for significant development and redevelopment potential. residential preservation that's it meant to be used in established low density residential neighborhoods. We took out things like environmental features that we could
readily identify car features. Um there's a whole host of things that we took out just at a desktop review GIS level of what lands can be developed that cut that available land in half just by doing a desktop review. That
doesn't take into account the need to provide infrastructure for development. That doesn't take into account market pressures for what development is likely to occur. While areas like Wani and areas like Southwood have significant
development entitlements, what we've seen in our community is that the average residential development is about four or five units per acre. That's very low density residential. So while there is you know land that if you apply a
multiplier of the land use category that it allows it could accommodate x amount of development. That's a very simple mathematical equation that can be used to either say hey we have land or be used to you know kind of scare people
into the amount of development that could occur in the area. what will actually get developed. That's something that occurs so much later in the process for the comp plan. And just using a multiplier of density times acreage
doesn't adequately address what the market will actually provide for the for for areas for our community. >> Okay. Okay. That's that's helpful. Thank you very much. Uh next question. Um, if we were to go through the comp plan amendment process where an owner puts in
a request for changing the comp plan or expanding the USA, um, are the are the residents for a surrounding near a USA expansion within 1,000 ft, are they notified by USA expansion? >> Yes. >> Okay. They are during a comp plan
amendment process. So I will I will say that the only instances in which I have experienced and I'll defer to Arty to to fill in the blanks but the only instances where I have been involved with USA expansion has been with corresponding proposed
land use change and so the noticing primary occurred uh yeah it was the area around child but I'll defer to Arty that's accurate. Okay. So would they be mailed would they receive a mailing if it was purely just the text amendment to uh adjust the urban services area boundary?
>> U thank you commissioners. Uh yeah I think historically we've always seen uh urban service area expansions in conjunction with land use and so that's been the precedent that um uh the notification would be sent uh based on the land use change. Um I don't believe
we've encountered a situation where it's just the urban service area expansion and not a land use change. Uh that being said um you know we would confer with the attorneys for sure but I think our posture would be uh to air on the side
of more transparency and so we would we would send a notification on that. Okay. uh even though I think our policy is tied to the land use exchange uh we would typically heir on the side of doing more notification. >> That makes sense. It that makes perfect sense. Um one last question. Uh we had
the discussion about expanding the USA and how it doesn't change u housing density doesn't change much of anything but but there is an important point to bring up. putting property within USA, correct me if I'm wrong, but it increases the property value generally speaking and it
does encourage development because now you have a commitment to public infrastructure. Is are are those is that a correct assumption? >> I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Uh, Commissioner, um, in a situation where you have a large undeveloped piece
of property and it gets pulled into the urban service area, that would allow it to be subdivided more um because it would come with a land use change. Uh, if you bring an area into the urban service area, but you're not changing
the underlying land use, there's really no more development incentive than what would exist uh, as it is. So the development incentive comes from increasing the density intensity uh not just the fact that you would have to connect to water or sewer. I think most
properties uh if someone was wanting to develop like one unit per 3 acres or so uh it wouldn't really matter to them if it was going to be on sewer or septic. Uh the the development pressure would be the same. Uh the development pressure would
come if there were a larger piece of property that could then have land use exchange and then uh be subdivided more so they could do more development. >> Okay, that that's counterintuitive, but that's why we have you. So, thank you very much. >> Planning is counterintuitive. >> All right. Well, I'm done with my
questions. Um let me go ahead and and have a comment and then we'll we'll try to wrap this up. Okay. Listen, there been there's been a lot of debate about growth, not growth, etc. Um, I believe that that growth when it's done in a smart way is is good for
a community. It creates jobs, it creates housing, which we've talked about, Commissioner Welch. Um, it increases incomes, and it boosts the economy. Uh, I was speaking to a business uh and community leader last week, and and he told me, "If your community is not growing, it's dying." And um, he's not
wrong. Um, but the key for us here is to grow in a smart way. a smart way where the long term in the long run it becomes a net positive for the community not a net negative. Um and the changes that are
done for a a comprehensive plan must be done transparently and with proper upfront notice to citizens. Um this comp plan rewrite and I've said this I said this last month. This comp plan rewrite has proposals in it that in my opinion
and and much of the public was not done properly noticed and it was not done with with transparency. I I talked last month about how we transmitted this comp plan and then we got calls from people saying, "Did you know this was in there?"
After we transmitted, I brought something up to the planning staff for the first time. and they didn't bring it up with me about north of Lake Jackson. Same thing applies with Old St. Augustine and the USA expansion east of Meridian.
This is not the way to do a comp plan. Um what we need to do, what we should have done from the get-go is have comp plan rewrites about lane use category changes, housing density changes, which is which has been done and I credit our planning staff for doing that. What we
should not have done during this comp plan rewrite is what looks to the public like we're sneaking things in, like we're sneaking this USA expansion in, like we're changing this land use category designation for thousands of
acres of land. The intention may have been good from a planner's perspective, but from the public looking at us, it looks like we've been sneaking things in and then not telling our county commission about it until after we transmit.
So, I'm supporting the motion on the floor because what should be done with Old St. Augustine Road and the property surrounding it is to go through a comp plan amendment request process. That's where people living a,000 ft away from
the boundary are notified properly. We have public hearings about it. We do analysis of what those changes mean to the neighbors and to the community. and we discuss it out in the open like we should have done from the get-go earlier this year. So, I'm supporting the motion on the
floor. I've got a hard decision to make because I my argument is that these types of changes should be done individually separately as a comp plan amendment request that also applies to the land east of Meridian Road. But I
want your motion to pass and I don't know that the will of the board here would allow me to make a friendly amendment to add the East Meridian USA expansion back. I'm looking at people here to see what the M >> You have the floor. So if you want to make a friendly amendment, >> I I I don't want to make a friendly
amendment if it's going to kill his motion. >> It's not friendly. >> Okay. >> It's not friendly. >> It's a substitute motion. >> Proctor Mr. Proctor. Mr. Proctor. >> Mr. Proctor. Let let me speak please. Commissioner Proctor, you've answered my
question, sir. >> Um, I would have liked to have had a friendly amendment to include the property Easter Meridian, but I do from a practical matter, I want your motion to pass. So, I'm going ahead and and um
I'm going to support your motion. Um, I just I I want to I said this last month, but it is wrong for us to include 3,000 acres into the USA in this comp plan rewrite proposal.
Uh, that is just about the same amount of size as Wani. Now, when we talked about Wani, we talked about that for a full year. And for St. Augustine Road, the property around there, I mean, we've been hearing about it for about three weeks.
and it's 1,400 acres. This is not the way to do comprehensive planning. And so, um, I think this motion is is the right thing to do. I hope my colleagues here will support it. Um, let the land owner come back. I hope he I hope they I hope they do because we need to have that discussion. We need to have
affordable housing. We need to have growth. Growth is good for a community when it's done in a smart way. But let's have a proper process where the neighbors are notified, where we have that discussion in public hearings and talk about the implications. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you. All right, commissioners.
Commissioner Maddox is going to ask a brief question and then we're going to um we're going to vote on the substitute motion on the floor. >> Um, one of the concerns was density with the land use change. The zoning does not change. Correct. >> That's correct. the zoning changes will
be a part of the master plan or the or the plan development. >> So the plan development would be the land use that goes into place. The existing zoning there would stay in place and then when they if if they go through the master planning process and
it's approved by this board, any attempt to implement the master plan would be done through a plan unit development which would essentially be a reszoning application. So that would be another, you know, publicly noticed process and with with uh uh multiple public hearings.
>> So philosophically, you're trying to get ahead in making sure that we're protecting the lands. >> That's correct. >> All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> I have a quick question. Um if there is a zoning application or a proposed zoning change, um is there not a don't
we have a policy where people who live within a certain region get notified? >> Yes, it's the same as a comp plan amendment. It's a mailing of a,000 ft and it's also we reach out to nearby uh uh home owners associations, neighborhood associations and things of that nature. >> Okay. Thank you. Do you have a point of
order? >> Yes. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> On these four parcels, the future land use code today is rural. >> Correct. >> After we vote after we vote on what was proposed, the future land use code is proposed development. >> The future land uses. Yes. Planned
development. >> But what is the zoning? the zoning would stay as it is today at roll. >> Let's not confuse the issue. The point of the matter is the land use changes does not change the zoning which does not change the density. It changes the the capacity the the the potential for
density. So just because the land use changes, it doesn't change the zoning. It'll still be ruled, but what it means is within the the the development, it can go up to 20 units per acre instead of 1 to 10.
So that means if when if someone wants to change if someone wants to change the zoning of the property, all the neighbors are going to be notified. >> That's correct. >> Okay. Thank you for that clarification. >> Mr. Chair, can we have the motion? >> Yeah, I'm going to get to that. Yes, ma'am. Um for the record, uh
Commissioner, Mr. Vice Chair, could you restate the motion? >> Yes. Move option one without the USA expansion and land use change on 1100 acres owned by one owner over four
parcels on Old St. Augustine Road. >> Okay. And who second the motion? >> Proctor. Okay. Commissioners, does everyone understand the motion? >> Okay. All those in favor of the motion signifi the substitute motion signify by saying I. >> I.
>> All opposed. Nay. So, can can we do a roll call? >> The south end of the board. >> Commission. >> Madam Attorney, can you do a roll call, please? >> Commissioner Welch? >> No. >> Commissioner Maddox? >> No. >> Commissioner Gaban?
>> No. >> Commissioner Proctor? >> Yep. >> Commissioner Cummings? >> Yes. >> Commissioner O'Keefe? >> Yes. >> Commissioner Miner? >> Yes. >> Substitute motion passes 43 43. Thank you everyone for your patience.
Commissioners, >> yes sir. >> Um I I had a conversation outside with um Miss Young and it was a very good conversation and we talked about how this is a philosophical difference in the way we think about development and I
and I appreciated the conversation. It really enlightened me. What I what I what I want though and she's and and we kind she even said herself eventually this has to happen is an issue of timing and so I guess what I'm trying to get to
eventually or what I'm trying to understand is when is that timing right like I I don't I don't I philosophically felt like us moving this direction would allow us to protect the future of the
capacity and density of the area. I still I I'm worried about that. I'm worried about that within the framework of what we did today. So, Miss Gray, Miss Miss Young, I would love to meet with you all to figure out how do we control in the future the capacity issue
that could possibly happen in this area without a master plan that we that we had the potential to create today. That's my concern. So, I have my aid reach out to you to to to have that meeting. Uh, but I I appreciate the conversation we had today. Thank you. >> Thank you, Commissioner Max. All right, commissioners. Let's keep let's actually
where we at right now. All right, we're going to do the last public hearing on item number 26, then we're going to take a 10-minute recess before we come back to general business. >> So, right now, I move staff recommendation. >> On number 26? >> Yep. >> There any public speakers?
>> Do we have any public speakers on number? >> We do not. >> We pull up staff recommendation confirmed. All right, we have staff recommend. Uh, Commissioner Proctor move recommendation at option 26. Seconded by who? >> Cummings. >> Commissioner Cummings. >> Commissioner Cummings.
Any discussion? All those in favor of the motion on the floor signify by saying I. >> All oppose? Nay. Madam attorney, you got my name. Okay. Um, all right. Commissioner, take a 10-minute recess. Uh, we'll begin act. We'll take 14
minutes. 8 8:50. We will pick up at general business. 14 minutes. Yep.
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[Music] All right, commissioners. We will pick the meeting back up at it is 8:50. I believe we left off general business before we uh had our public hearings. Uh, Mr. County Administrator, correct me if I'm wrong, but on item number 19,
>> that is right. Mr. Chairman, >> can you introduce the item for us, please? >> Absolutely. Uh, chairman, commissioners, item number 19, you'll recall, was uh requested by the board at your last meeting. It provides information uh and that's what the board asked for, just information, general information to come
back uh on city county consolidation. In the item, uh, you'll find a history of consolidation efforts throughout, uh, Florida, including prior, uh, Tallahassee and Lyon County referenda. Uh, potential advantages, disadvantage, uh, disadvantages which the board wish
to be included. The item, uh, details existing, uh, efforts toward functional consolidation and and achieving functional consolidation between Lyon County and the city of Tallahassee. And finally, the item provides uh uh the state uh legal framework to pursue consolidation and potential uh next
steps should the board wish to explore the issue further. Uh again, the item is seeking uh board direction and we have uh one speaker card on this item. >> Is there speaker?
>> Yes. Uh speaker is Dman Johnson. Good evening. Uh, you're going to have to give me a little latitude because I've been here 6 hours waiting to speak on 19 which you gave
>> five of it was to recess. First of all, I am here to say even though I have opposed every consolidation effort that has come before
local government and the citizens in the past. I am very much in support of consolidation now and I hope that this board will move
forward with a study commission to bring forward a proposal on that. Uh, I read the whole executive summary that is on your website
and uh, I have a few comments. First of all, I am in support of it because things have changed dramatically
in Lyon County since those earlier proposals happened. I was a part of the sister government and felt they were best suited to
address the needs of an urban population and had the will to do so. I am here at a different time in the mid80s
with the late Anita Davis as president of the NAACP with me as her political action chair
filed a lawsuit through the NAAC. CP against the county because it was impossible to elect a black person to the county commission
at that time. And it was a result of that lawsuit being filed that the county commission agreed to a settlement. And that settlement is the
structure you have today with five single member districts and two at large districts. I feel in watching it was probably providence
that I I sat through that 6 hours tonight because watching you deal with that PUD issue only made me feel better about where I
stand right now with the reduction in duplication of services with a reduction in cost. The county oversees a population of over $3,000
and your administrative cost is $985,000. The city oversees a population of 22,000 100,000 and their executive
management population uh salaries total $2.4 million. We are talking about this being the right time, the right moment
to look at this again and make a decision on where we go from here. intervening factors, the fire service agreement,
how we plan growth in this community instead of annexations up to the state and county line
where people do not have input into what's happening with those annexations. s and what we will be doing through the city is harder
on the people inside the city limits who are paying taxes to do infrastructure for areas that will not develop for decades instead of upgrading their antiquated infrastructure inside the
city. I hope you will move forward. I will be out there supporting it. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. All right, commissioners. Uh right now I see Commissioner Proctor's in the queue. Uh Commissioner Proctor, you are recognized
for a motion. >> Um thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um may I make comments before making the motion? I'll make the motion. >> You have to make the motion. >> Okay, Mr. Chairman. Um, I'd like to offer uh having gone through item 19
uh that I make the motion that we adopt um a non-binding uh advisory referendum uh to gauge the public interest in consolidation. So, it's sort of a straw ballot, but to place uh as a first step
for our community determine uh what what they want and if our community Mr. M m chairman commissioners um approve of then we follow these other steps which staff has um so beautifully laid out in terms of the pathway to secure. So my
motion is merely that we um move forward with the um nonbinding um referendum to gauge public interest and consolidation for November 3rd of 2026. All right. There's a motion uh made by
>> chair. I'll second for discussion. >> Okay. Sounds great. So, we have a motion made by Commissioner Proctor basically for what is known as a straw poll, a non-binding referendum um to gauge public interest in consolidation.
Discussion. Commissioner Proctor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um it's so ironic that um former mayor Dorothy Johnson um is the level of history that's been in this building, in this room tonight on so
many of the issues, but her command um of the information and being a trench soldier um through an era where she was elected as a city commissioner serving as a mayor
um in my respect um just um uh Mayor Johnson and um has never walked away and quote retired retired from public service and I thank you for that. What's missing in these numbers
commissioners? Uh well, what's missing is the absence of numbers such as was pointing out that in the city's jurisdiction there are 200,000 people and in that 200,000
there's a workforce of executive pay at 2.4 million. um trusting Mayor Johnson's numbers, she says that um for 300,000 or everyone in the county's jurisdiction, our executive
pay is 985,000. Um Commissioner Cummings, I'm not going to do any public math tonight, but um I think that's a savings of about Yeah. And um that much. But it's that um
apple to apple um orange to orange comparison which is not showing. And I think that some years ago um Mr. County Administrator, I vaguely remember
um a a comparative analysis. Um, God. Um, I wish I could pull it all the way up in my mind, but we did staffing, public works, public works, uh, our, um,
this department to that department, da da da, and it was a, it was a sheet that showed the financials. But until this community sees the financials to see advantages and particularly in a time where we don't know what's going to happen uh
after the legislature leaves. And the question is um do people in this community do they really want to pay one government or have to pay two governments? um you know and that should be a choice
possibly that we find out. One of the things I heard Commissioner Miner say that was um poignant tonight and he talked about the process of the last issue and how
it could have been processed differently. And one of the things that we learned about this hospital issue, uh, it's not the substance of do we want better medical care, but we don't want
it talked about in the secret. And is there any way that the public transparency could exist? And I believe commissioners, as I ask um y'all's commitment to giving the most democratic approach that I can think of, letting
the voters of this community decide. And it will be very timely once the um legislature leaves town. We see what kind of damage has been done. And it and and again the city as they exist have the ability to raise money through
electricity and whatnot but we don't. But can this community speaking in an era of affordability being the driving issue? Do people want to pay two governments for service or pay one government for service? Vince, I thank
you for all of this history, but what's missing is a comparative analysis of what it takes to do public works in the city, what it takes to do public works in the county and that kind of department by department thingy and
letting the public be a much part of um consideration. We're their government. And of course, to be clear, uh Mr. chairman, we're not talking about a consolidation that um the county is subsumed beneath
the city. Um but I did not see the statutory references chassis, but if I'm not mistaken, the county being a um uh we're constitutional entity of the state of Florida,
um the city is not going to um subsume us. we are state. Um if if this thing occurred, we're talking about the county being the strong existing government that would um incorporate the city and
would assume the city's government. Uh and I think the state um constitution u was we could stand on the security of that status. I think there are over 300 cities in Florida. I think there are
over 300 cities. Vince, would that is that accurate? And there are 67 counties, but each of those counties uh have something in common. Property appraiser, tax collector, um county commission, and that state function that
we set millage rate and levy taxes is is is not something the city does. And in our county structure, the declaration of emergency is something that the chairman of the
county's government holds power to set emergency declaration and nobody else. So, we're secure in this look. We're not going to dissolve. We're simply talking about absorbing u the costs and the functions of other
of things. tonight. A tad bit of it, Commissioner Welch, was the five services fee and what we're looking at and the testimonies that commissioners talked about with five services getting dumped, getting whatever. Um, we can
settle some of this. We can settle it. So, I ask your support for the citizens of our community. Um, and I think I heard Mayor Johnson say she was hopeful that we could do a um, excuse me, Mayor,
a um, a um, study Thank you very much. Um, a study commission. Move forward with a study commission. Don't Don't do an old man like that. To move forward with a study commission.
And I'm not certain um you know what considerations are, but definitely let's let's let's give the public democratic right what they want and then from there go >> Thank you, Commissioner Proctor. Commissioner Walsh.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um Commissioners, I am, you know, kind of like up in the air on this one. I mean, this is really kind of going to be some good conversation. I'm going to let Commissioner O'Keefe Mike could
actually change my mind, man, on this one. Um, you know, my thoughts on this as we as a pretty quick turnaround by staff, uh, you know, a good synopsis of the history of this issue in Lyon County,
but not a lot of details about how it would work. And I think the the problem with it is that you need those details. and in order like like a straw poll and I'm cool with that if that's one do you know the non-binding referendum without details that don't really change yeah I
mean I guess it gives us a decent idea of how the community feels about it but I feel like most people without any details are probably just going to say no um so I don't know how we shape the language of the referendum I think uh
the county administrator said we're limited to whatever ballot 75 words I don't know if you could adequate. I can't I can't do much in 75 words. I just sent my wife the narrative for the Christmas card and she said it had like a 50word limit and I think I was off by
about 700 words. So, um you know that's a problem. So, I don't know how we get a lot of information out of that from that. But at the same time, I it might be a little early to request a study commission. Uh which I think if you
know, you put a bunch of people together with differing um uh you know, concerns and questions, you're going to get a lot like our charter review commission right now, which I watched for a little bit the other day, which was like, woo boy, I ain't getting a whole lot of traction there. Um you know, so it's hard to get us to agree on something. You know, it's
much harder to get 21 people or seven people from the community or 14 people. So, I have a couple questions for the staff based on conversations I've had in the community over the past 3 weeks since we floated this idea. Now, for my
district in Northeast Tallahassee in District 4, the the biggest concern and I've heard from people I respect across the board, some are like terrible idea, some are like great idea. And so it's very hard to gauge, you know, what the
real um effectiveness is. I think when you get into this, there's a lot of um going be a lot of controversy about which government takes precedent or which which government takes priority or which function. um you know the the the analysis talks
about the lack of an accelerator act or some kind of big issue like corruption scandals or um you know bad schooling or you know whatever you want to call it. The people in my district and this is probably just specific to my district in
regards to the city feel pretty strongly under reppresented. Okay? And I've said this many times, but none of the five city commissioners live north of I 10. None of them. Okay? So that means
literally my whole district has no city commissioner that lives in it. And so when they appeal to the city commissioners, they often feel disenfranchised, right? Or you have I have people that are on city utilities but don't live in the city. A lot of
that. And they so they can't vote in city elections, but they feel like they're being taxed through the utility. So I think there's so the biggest concern for me and this is my question um and I think this could be this could be
perceived as an accelerator event okay if you're talking about a singular issue that affects this kind of conversation which is a serious conversation I think we got to have serious considerations about it um as a political subdivision of the state
can the state of Florida if the state of Florida has the ability, the legislature, to write a consolidation plan or force us to the table to do a consolidation. Does the state of Florida have the ability to compel the city to create districts to form the the the
formulation of their board? Can can the state say you got to have seven city commissioners that mirrors the county and you got to have five districted city commissioners that represent geographically the county? because I think currently this county commission's makeup
far better reflects the geography of the community than the cities in terms of representation. So, one of the one of the pitfalls of consolidations or one of the the cons was this perception of lack of representation. Well, I think that's a pro in this conversation because the
city does not have adequate representation throughout the county because all five of the city commissioners live south of I 10. Okay. So, is that something that the legislature could compel the city to do? >> So, uh it's it's it's not a brag. It's
more of a confession. Again, my says everything about my social life. I've probably studied every consolidation charter ever created. So, but I will tell you in that and of course I'll I'll always defer to to Chassity and and let me say too that this is high level
information and so um this sort of a right of passage for all county commissions to go through. I mean I totally respect in a serious note that every commission sort of has to consider this issue in their context in the context in which you're governing. And so, uh, but happy to answer questions,
uh, that you that you may have. That question specifically, you have to understand that, uh, counties and cities are created much differently. We're a political subdivision of of the state of Florida. So, we are we're a decentralized geographical subunit of the state in a lot of ways. The cities,
however, once created by the legislature, the legislature sort of leaves them alone to um to to address their changes in their government through their municipal charter amendment process and through their charter update process. Could they do it? I'd have to defer to Chassity, but
generally that's the way they happen. They create cities, but once created, their charter amendment process is what determines their evolution. >> Okay. I'll be honest with you. I don't know. I can't give you the definitive answer to
your question. >> Hold up. >> Because I haven't looked at this issue. >> Did you hear that? >> You're talking about outside of the consolidation plan just on their own. >> Correct. >> Could the the legislature has a lot of authority? They could probably do it if they want to. I don't know of anything
that would prohibit them from doing it. Whether they would do it or not is an entirely different question. Yeah, I'm not asking that question. >> Could they? I would say probably. >> Okay. So, on that point, if the city I
mean, if we're a political subdivision of the state governed by our charter and the and a city or the city is a political subdivision of the state governed by a charter and the legislature can can put term limits on us. they can they I mean I I would
assume they could compel any subdivision to structure themselves the way they want whether it's term limits whether it's districts geography whatever so that creates an interesting question right so like
I think that that in and of itself could be an accelerator event but at the end of the day I think this is potentially a very ugly and messy process. I don't know how it would play out in practicality. I think it's real easy to talk about it in
theory. I think there's a lot of people that would be offended by the notion of it. I'm probably offending people right now by even mentioning this idea of the state compelling the city to create districts. Um, so I I think we should tread lightly, but I also think that we
as elected officials, if we extricate ourselves from the conversation and we extricate ourselves from the idea of political survival and we look at the bigger picture of what is the best functioning government to serve the 300,000 citizens that reside in this
county, I think that this conversation is begging to be had. I think given the issues with the fire services fee, given the issues that we've dealt with with utility um >> sewer >> sewer issues with with uh the utility
being uh you know people that don't live and I got a lot of these folks in my district that don't live in the city but pay city utilities and I hear from them quite often. Um, I think that it's begs the question, I just don't know based on this analysis
and this process how you land that plane in a place that creates those efficiencies that creates um a better government. Uh, I used the analogy with the county administrator the other day of like I heard this on the radio or
something about how like if you're if you're dirty, you don't just change clothes, you got to take a shower. You know what I'm saying? And so is it I heard that on the radio. If you >> I didn't hear that. I listen to the
gospel station. It say come as you are. >> I was I was wondering what that smell was. No, you're going to disco. >> So, I don't know how, you know, some people are going to say, well, you just, you know, it's not the it's not the
structure, it's the people or whatever. Um, but I think there are some structural issues in terms of representation uh at the city and and I know that there's been scuttlebutt about well this is going to create representation issues
and minority communities and things like that. And I don't know, man. And I got to tell you that the makeup of this board I think far better reflects uh the makeup of the community and gives geographic representation to every single person in the community regardless of where you live. And I think a lot of the concern about people
in the county don't want to be in the city. Uh I think that that's because they associate the city's government with the city's government. And if they associated it with the county's government, they might feel differently. So I don't know how you navigate all that guys. That's just where I'm at on it. I don't know what the best route
forward is. I'm willing to kind of go with the board's suggestion. If a straw poll is what we want to do, I'll support that. If we wanted to create a study commission, I would probably support that. But I have to I haven't heard from any of the big players in this conversation. The police, the
firefighters, the sheriff, how all those parts intermingle. I would really need to hear from those folks cuz that would weigh heavily on my decision and as it as it should all of ours, I think. So, you know, we're really at the very first step of even putting our toe in the water of this big big move and this big
big conversation. So, um I would just encourage us as a board to approach it the way I posted about it when I first when we first did this a month ago, which is I am all ears. I just it would take a substantial listening session to get everybody's ideas on this and then
make a decision. And I think that would have it would have significant ramifications for every elected official in a policym role all 12 of us. And you'd have to really it takes take a lot of courage I think to pursue this. Thank you Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you Mr. Immediate past chair. I
have uh Commissioner O'Keefe and Commissioner Cummings and Commissioner Miner. Mr. O'Keefe you recognize. >> Thank you Mr. Chair. And well said. What I took from that Commissioner Welch is District 5 is very well represented on this county. I agree.
>> Wait a minute. >> What? >> I I have a I have a question. Um the there's many from this report there's there's many different ways to start and go through a process that would end in a consolidation decision.
But anything any new attempt at some point it needs an act by the legislature and the legislature has authority over what is is moves what structure moves on to whatever the next step is after that.
Okay. And if the legislature wanted to, could they compel I know it would be unlikely, but do they have the authority to if if if we don't do anything, we just go home and they get an idea over there, could the legislature pass one of those acts this session and have us have
to start the process? >> Two two things. All all we can tell you is what generally happens. And again, what generally happens is that the the um the local governments plural usually come to the legislature with an ask and
with a plan. Um and but in terms of what can the legislature do and the legislative delegation do, they can as long as there is a plan to be voted on that could be created in any number of ways. But as long as there a plan there, there needs to be a plan needs to be a special law passed and then there it
needs to be placed on the ballot. Those are the steps and but technically speaking, I think we've got a bill filing deadline that is very quickly approaching January 9th. >> Yes, that's the bill filing deadline. >> Yes. So you would presumably you would I if the legislature didn't contemplate a
plan again if it was a consolidation effort then you would need to have a plan for uh this legislative session to be completed by January 9th presumably. >> Thank you. Um so this I I appreciate the
report. It was pulled together very um quickly but it wasn't just this is what staff thinks. It it I like that you pulled resources from her own library. I think you had to use the inter library loan Iliad system. I noticed that. Um and uh it was very helpful. And so the
the first thing that concern that concern me about moving forward on this process at this point is we are constantly fighting and defending home rule from the state on all levels. And generally the values and policies of the state
conflict and oppose the our local community values that guide our policies typically. And so anytime we risk bringing the state more into something about our structure, especially now I get very nervous about um
and I let me say respectfully I think leaders I think changes at the city how they run should act absolutely happen. And I think that's what elections are for over there. Um, looking at the the background and the research, all of the evidence on consolidations has shown
that people like it perhaps at first the idea, but when you get to the specifics, the cost savings don't real don't materialize and often the cost and time consumed in merging large complex organizations is high. Right now, we're at a time we're in multiple disputes
over critical services between us and the city. And I fear a sudden consolidation effort like this looks like a hostile takeover instead of a merger. And I think that when we are facing uncertainties
such as state property tax reform reform that will be on the ballot with whatever we put on the ballot next time, multiple proposals. I think uh deciding whether consolidate or not without being down the step where there's a bunch of plans, it might not be a great idea to have on
the same ballot as five property tax proposals that says your local government doesn't need the revenue it has to provide the services that they do. I think that we face uncertainty with all new state home rule and I think we should be focusing our efforts on
defending that on on protecting our ability to function as a local government and we are at a time particularly coming into the 2026 uh ballot. That bad boy is going to be long with all of the constitutional amendments that are going to be put up there, all the property tax proposals,
anything coming from our citizens charter review committee that individually changes our county charter. And so I'm thinking holistically about what voters would see on here and what other critical existential changes are
also on that ballot at the same time. Um, if we consolidate, we're not creating a new government from scratch, right? When we we want to change to improvement, it's a totally different ballgame to say we're starting a new government and one government
makes sense. We would be merging two governments with 200 years of history, which is doable, but let's not underestimate the challenge that that would be. we would have to cooperate to bring all the operations together which is unlikely to happen in orderly fashion
right now because we aren't even able to get cooperation on fire services contracts we already signed together. Uh and so if there's ever a good if there is ever a good time to consolidate it's when all the local governments are getting along so that they can integrate
everything together for the community. If we're doing it when we already disagree, I think it's unlikely based on the examples of all the prior proposals in the report and the other ones that successfully passed in 1950
and 1948, uh, you didn't just get one government took the over. I don't think we're just going to get it's going to be the same seven county commissioners and we're going to be in charge of everything. We're going to have some mix of elected officials from there and here. I don't think we're just going to
get to take them over. And so we would have to work together with those officials better than we do now. Just think about it. Every commission meeting would be a blueprint meeting. Let's focus on working together, solve the current issues we face and
work on that and instead of throwing everything in when um this is a big big decision and uh there's a lot going on that is out of our control and not entering this
is within our control. Thank you. Mr. >> Mr. >> Mr. Chairman, I want to just make sure that the a motion is understood and if and and and I've heard Commissioner Welch and O'Keefe speak as if
um we're bringing something to the ballot for consolidation. That's not what we're doing. My motion um to restate it is simply to have a referendum uh that ask the public is y'all is y'all
ain't down with consolidation or to look at it. It is not to, you know, get merit, you know. Yeah. So, so make sure there was clarity. >> Commissioner Proctor, I'll clear that up. Commissioner Proctor's motion is just a straw poll. So non-binding just a
public interest uh basically ref I shouldn't say poll referendum to see you know where voters are on this issue. So um >> were you done? >> No that's as I understand too to just say I understand that it's non-binding.
It's uh that that stands with what my thoughts are on it. Thank you. >> Okay. Uh Commissioner Cummings. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, I second uh Commissioner Proctor's uh motion for the
for discussion and I too like um former mayor Dorothian Johnson, we appreciate you being here and your presentation to the board, but I like you have always been in opposition to consolidation.
The last time it was on the ballot, I was a citizen and I voted against it. And I vot voted primarily because I didn't have any empirical data that showed consolidation would result in
governmental efficiency, uh savings for the voters, uh reduction in duplication, you know, all those things that that we hope uh would be eliminated. I didn't have any factual
information. I nothing was presented so that I could analyze and decide whether or not uh consolidation would be best for the community. I didn't see any cost savings. Uh I you
know having one voice I didn't see how that would benefit the citizens as well. So the nonbinding referendum in my opinion without some information to the taxpayers I think it would be be an
exercise in futility. if we have to move forward to gather some information uh for the citizenry to to analyze to decide whether or not they're in favor of consolidation or not, then I I'm
really not in favor of that right now. Uh I think the devil is in the details, number one, but I think timing is also very important. I think in the long run consolidation might very well be beneficial for the community. But I
think we have to have a study. We have to have a committee. We have to have a comparison to show this would be a cost savings. Off the top of my head, I don't see how it would be a cost savings. I I don't think we can collapse two
governments and have one governing body um of county commissioners govern everything. All one governing body of city commissioners governing everything in the structure that we have. Clearly there would have to be some expanded
administrative uh persons. It would have to be expanded uh you know administrative fiscal impact. So having said that, I think this is just not the the right time. We
are facing uh some unknowns with the legislature. We we table uh a couple items or one item tonight pending what the legislature and what the governor might do as far as Avalor taxes uh is concerned. So I just think
right now the climate is not right right for it. I think maybe perhaps later at some point just a straw um a nonbinding referendum without more it it wouldn't be enough for me to
support it. I would need some empirical data to compare. So, at this point, I I'm not willing to uh support us moving forward doing other studies at
this point. I think maybe later on perhaps but right now and that's where I am right now but uh you guys do a lot of persuasion and argu argue argumentative uh positions so I could be persuaded but that's my position right now
>> that that we table it until I'm waiting for you. I just think timing is wrong right now. We have bigger fish to fry. If if um the legislature passes any one of those those seven proposals that relate to
aorum taxes, we're going to have our hands full dealing with services for the community trying to maintain the level of services. We have already voted and I know we've already we have a contract uh with the consultant to see how we can
look at other ways of uh raising revenue. So we we've just got a lot on our plate. So I think it's lofty. It's a lofty idea, but I don't think the timing is right right now. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Yes, ma'am. Commissioner Miner, then Commissioner Maddox.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. Um, you know, I I I did research on consolidation years ago when I worked at the city and um this is like 10 years ago and and and basically what what I found was that the consolidations that I studied had
high costs during the transition and then once the structure had settled down and you were running um um status quo, the efficiencies were mixed. Um, and I did some updated research when we were talking about this issue um, a
couple weeks ago and it doesn't it doesn't look like that research has changed. Um, >> you said the efficiencies were mixed. Yeah, the results on efficiency and cost savings were mixed for for most of the research shows that >> um doesn't mean it can't work, but but
just the aggregate of the research shows that um I think to a lot of people in this community from which I've heard consolidation sounds like a great idea at a high level but once you get into the details once you start to figure out well which services in order to gain
efficiencies you've got to make cuts right cuts in personnel Where do you make cuts? You cut law enforcement. Not on my watch. Um, how do you make sure that the urban neighborhoods which need a specific type
of services than what the rural neighborhoods need? Most folks in the unincorporated area want to be in the incorporate unincorporated area. They like their community being rural and they want to keep it that way. How do we how do we assure them that that's maintained while still providing urban
services? Lot of questions. We're not going to find the answer to those questions tonight. But my point is that I think at a high level a lot of people like the idea of consolidation. It intuitively it seems like you would have some cost savings at efficiencies, but once you get down to details, it starts
to lose its shine. And so, you know, I on the on the straw bowl on the straw poll, I you know, I there are parts of me I I could I could support it, but also I don't want to take us down this path where maybe it passes, maybe it doesn't, but then we have to then we
have to figure out what the next step is in level of detail. And we have to figure out what the public wants once we get to those details. And so that's where I'm caught because I I I you know I'm always about reaching out to the public, getting feedback from the public, and this seems to be a good opportunity for us to do that, but can
we convey enough information in those 75 words to give them some detail on what this actually might look like? And I don't know that the answer is yes. So, um I think we got at least another speaker. I want to hear what Commissioner Proctor says and Commissioner Maddox. Commissioner Maddox
and I'm going to speak um before Commissioner Proctor takes us till midnight and then we'll run. >> I Maddox. Um, I think it would make sense that it would streamline
and make a more efficient government for our citizens to deal with. But I think Commissioner Miner brings up some very good points. Whose parks department goes away? um how do we combine our public works
departments, who becomes the director, all that kind of stuff. I mean, you know, on the face of it, you look at you look at the commissions and most people will think to themselves, we don't have 12 commissioners. So, you must save something there, but we're really small part in the cost when it comes to
government. The efficiencies come in the com the combining of the governments and the functions of that government. I think staff did a good job of going through the potential disadvantages of consolidation as well as the highlights in the 6040s and all that kind of stuff.
We talked about straw pole. I think if you told me that would I want to work with two governments or one, I'm going to say one. I think you get a false read from that. I think that's disingenuous. I think I think to to put a straw poll out
without a plan is not fair to our constituents cuz then once we put the straw poll out and then we put we put uh then we they say they say okay and then we start to create the plan and they're like wait I didn't know that you were getting rid of the city's parks
department is going to be the counties or I didn't know that that you know I was going to lose this or lose that and so I think we have to be very deliberate in the way we do this if we're going to do it. Uh I happen to agree with the
sentiments of Commissioner Cummings as well and that we're fighting for our life. There's so many other things we got to focus on right now. It's right now the right timing. Even if we had even if we got to a point we had a plan and we moved forward and to put on I'm
still I it would have to be a intense public campaign cuz 75 words is not going to be enough to to explain everything we're going to have to do to consolidate government at the front end. It makes sense that it would be a high high amount of spending
for us to get to possible savings in the future. But even with those possible savings in the future, you still may not realize efficiencies when it comes to government unless you know you're willing to make some really really hard decisions, right? Um
I voted against this last time and I put on record why I did publicly uh in that I feel like we there's other things we need to exhaust before we get to this point. I can't I can't vote for a straw poll tonight because I don't I don't
believe that the public I believe I believe that it had a it has a possibility of passing because on the face of it especially what's going on it seems like it's a good idea but I don't believe that the public has enough information just like we don't have enough information to say what we're
really doing and so I can't support an emotion on the more. I thought about maybe maybe the straw pole coming back as an agenda item and getting some public input that way. Maybe maybe we I'm trying I'm trying to get to a point where
like I said in my statement I get more public input, but it's just so complicated. Like it's just such a complicated issue cuz you're right. It's not like these seven commissioners are going to go take over the city. It's not like those five commissioners are going to come take over the county. It's a mixture of all
that. It's not like our county administrator becomes the county administrator for the city and the county and in the in the city structure goes away. It's not like Yeah. I mean I mean you know I'm just being honest with you. Hey, you might lose your job, bro. Um so it becomes much more complicated
and I think that takes I think we tal prime example. We just tried to change the comp plan to extend to an area of town to extend across um O Augustine Road and we had citizens say that they
didn't know about it. And now it's like, okay, well then we're going to back up, which I mean, I get it. It makes sense. Um but we're gonna do a whole I just I just can't get I think I think this has to be very deliberate. I think it I think it has a series of meetings. I
think there's there's citizens involved. I think there's so much to this before we actually put it so people understand understand what they're about to do. Uh I I I wouldn't feel like I was representing county constituents uh to to best of my ability just moving
forward without without being very deliberate about this process and having an intense public information campaign about what it means uh to consolidate neon government with city government. So, I can't I can't support the straw poll. I don't feel there's enough
information out there. And maybe I can be convinced at some point, but I don't think there's enough information to convince me to go with consolidation yet cuz I just don't know what it looks like. I'm right there where where Commissioner Cummings is when she voted against in I guess 92 in that I don't know what that looks like. I don't know
what kind of government I end up with. I just I don't have enough information. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you, Commissioner Maddox. All right, Commissioner Cummings, you ready to be persuaded? >> No. Um, listen guys, this is this is a
this is a great debate and a great conversation. Um, my opinion is this. I think Commissioner Proctor, you know, made the most the best motion that we could have possibly made to
gather public input. And I think it is a way to just truly gauge where people in our community are. And in a way, it's almost kind of like asking their permission if this is something for us to explore. Um what more, you know, what
better way is it to put on the ballot and ask voters say, "Do you want us to look at this?" Right? It's not it's not binding. It opens the door for conversation. And if for folks who are upset, say, "Listen, we're putting it on the ballot just to have the conversation." Um, I want to go through
some points of, you know, why I'm in favor of exploring it. Again, I'm not saying I'm I'm I'm for consolidation. I think it's worth us having a conversation about it. And I think it's worth us at some point, again, not I mean, we're talking a year from now.
Commissioner Cumins, you said it's not the right time. Well, I want to remind you that this would be a year from now, right? We'd put it on the ballot November of 2026, right? which would give staff to bring us some different referendum language for us to look at to really put a
referendum on there that gauged true public interest, right? Um, but the last time that this was asked was 1992. Put in perspective for you with you all. Commissioner Proctor was probably 40 and
I was I I I wasn't even born. So, >> it was a better time. Elana has changed probably probably. So my my mother would say the same. Um but it was it was a it was a
completely different even politics across the state of Florida have changed significantly. It was blue. Yeah. So the biggest thing for me here is I said this last meeting it is about affordability
to me single-handedly. Uh there's a reason why we have certain consolidated departments right now. There's a reason why we're talking about with the fire department why it's going to be more expensive to have two different departments because it is cheaper for
taxpayers and more efficient for taxpayers if we had one. And you know, Commissioner O'Keefe, listen, the best argument I've heard from you all night was it could be blueprint. And I you had me thinking, man, maybe we don't want to do this. But but I think that's a good
example of if we consolidate of what we don't want, right? And so I think when we look at and saying if we do consolidate, yeah, we probably don't want a 12p person board, right? Um the utilities, Commissioner Cummings, right now we have folks in the
unincorporated that pay a 50% search charge on certain utilities because the it's a city of Tallahassee utility. If we had a consolidated government, that 50% search charge goes away. Right now, we the city leases I mean the county
leases Tom Brown Park to the city. That is a um why we do that. That was before my time. I don't know. Right. You know, it's in city limits. Okay. It's it's but we own it. We lease it to the city. It's there's just weird things like that that
don't really make sense to me. Um, another thing is an additional layer of property taxes that folks pay within city limits. I think we could we could look at that. And you know, this is I'm going to pass something up, but before I
do that, it's funny. The only people, well, no, majority of the people who have approached me who have felt negatively about this, majority of them, not all of them, were county residents who thought that we were going to be assumed by the city and
that they would have to report to a city commissioner. When I explained to them that's not the case, there's a million different ways we could do it. There's a way where the county, the seven county commission seats could be the governing body. And they say, "Sign me up. I love that idea.
off off out off out off out off bat. Um I also share the sentiment with that Commissioner Welch said about you know folks in my district in city limits feel entirely under reppresented. We've been dealing with issues on West Tennessee Street, West Tharp Street, West
Pensacola Street. I got I kid you not, commissioners, I have an email in my inbox about trash on Jackson Bluff Road where we emailed the city and asked them if they would pick it up because a constituent complained and the city said that they would not pick it up because
they felt that it was a resident that lived outside of the city limits that dumped the trash. >> Even though the trash sat on a median on Jackson Bluff Road, the city refused to pick it up. So when I talk about
how what this looks is like I kind of feel like we we're we're stronger if we're stronger together. So coming back to, you know, to center here, um I want to pass this out to you all real quick.
Ally, can we get Ally, can we put this on the um on the projector for us, please? Oh yeah. I'm going to point out something for uh Commissioner Keefe and Commissioner Mer on this map as well. So commissioners,
this is from one of our uh one of our agendas from staff. In no way, shape, or form have I changed it. We just pulled it right from our agenda. I think this is from an agenda over the summer uh of this year, but basically this is a city annexation map of the city of
Tallahassee and it's annexed property and it has all the years associated with it. And so when you look at over time and based on the direction that the county attorney um provides to us on city annexation, meaning that if someone
if there's a voluntary annexation to our board and the city, we legally have to approve it. Is that correct, Madam Attorney? >> If it meets the statutory criteria. Yes. >> Okay. So when you look at what's happening, commissioners, it's it's not
if we have to legally approve every single annexation into the unincorporated, I would argue that over time our rural residents are going to get encroached on even more and we're going to have less jurisdiction to govern with our rural
residents. So to me, when I look at this map, I look at, okay, it's not if, it's when. Well, the city of Tallahassee boundaries are going to expand so far that we're going to sit here and say, okay, what
does Leyon County government do? And so with this comes another layer of property taxes. And I I just think that, you know, when we look at look at the the two comp plan
amendments we just had, well, commissioners, if they're contiguous with the city, the city can just annex them in and expand the urban services area. Anyway, when you look at on the south side of this map, very southern point, southern tip, where it says 2022, literally the very
southern tip, that's on Woodville Highway. Commissioner Proctor, >> I see it. And I can tell you one thing, our residents in Woodville do not want the city to annex them. And it's only a matter of time if it's contiguous to where our rural residents, I mean, look
at Commissioner Walter's district, look at Bradfordville. So when I look at this map and I talk about the annexation of the city over time, this tells me guys like we are duplicating governments and there's not
really much we can do about it other than look at consolidation. So, commissioners, I I I I appreciate um I appreciate the open-mindedness about this and I I I remain I remain grounded
and humble on this item where I I could be wrong. I think it's worth having staff do some work. And ultimately, you know, I want to ask residents because I know when I put this map in front of any rural resident, they're like, "Yeah, they don't want the city of Tallahassee
encroaching on um their backyard. So, um, right now I see I got commission I got pretty much four of the commissioners in the queue right now, >> sir. M, >> of course, >> just on point real quick.
>> Yes, sir. Um, I don't know if staff or administrator can answer this question, but there's a difference between city initiated and and um private privately initiated. Yeah. Voluntary versus involuntary annex annexation.
I This is This is pretty That's a lot. How much How How many of these are city initiated or are involuntary? >> Not very many. The last time they tried was in 2002 in the Southside area and it
failed. Most of these are voluntary annexations. >> Okay. So, so these are people who came to came to the city or came to us and said they wanted to be an extend. Okay. Thank you. >> Can I point to that? >> Yeah. And I want to point something out real quick before I pass it to Commissioner real quick. Is that one
thing is whether it's, you know, I appreciate the the clarification on that, Commissioner Maddox. However, basically, if we have to approve it, no matter what, if if you're not getting annexed in, it's still city limits encroaching on people's backyards, front yards, neighborhoods. So, um, anyways, I
want to point that out. Commissioner. Yeah, just on point, madam attorney, in my experience up here, the voluntary annexations are often done by developers before anybody's living in the neighborhood. So, people buy the homes and they just are in the city. It's not like they like, you know, voted on it
one way or the other. They just the city consumes the new development because they want the meters, they want the electric electrical units, >> and that's just the way that those involuntary annexations go. So, it's not like people are voting on it yes or no. >> No, that's not what I'm saying. >> It's just happening before they even buy the homes. >> Correct.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that what I'm saying is that that the most what what I my my question and my my my what I was wondering was how many of them were initiated by the city how many of them were involuntary meaning the city initiated versus voluntary meaning even a developer going
to the city that's still voluntary right so I was just want to know that piece of because this is this is this is extraordinary to look at >> commissioners not to bring another topic but I'm going to keep it derain to this but this is another reason why I brought up the ordinance issue that the that the that the um charter review commission is
looking at because you know we're mediumsiz county and the city is expanding their territory and I'm not listen no shame to them they're doing what they're supposed to do as a city government is they're trying to collect more government collect more revenue to to provide more services however we are
the unincorporated unincorporated part of Leyon County is getting smaller and smaller and smaller um all right I have Commissioner Proctor in the queue then Commissioner Welch Commissioner Proctor you're recognized Hey, Mr. Chairman. I think there was something called um attitude u and if you did a a ballot
straw ballot of citizens uh perception of um goodwill uh attitude disposition uh there more people call um my office actually uh and I represent I don't have a dichotomy
about the city or the rural we represent all of them. I mean like um that they they I mean I don't see a line between the city and and a county resident. All of them. She represents
all of them. Madam represents I mean they they think globally. They already think like an atlarge county commissioner which is all encompassing. uh the logistics of their processing is
a little unique a little more than us but they are already um cognating at that level of uh being um uh consolidated in at large you know period. I wanted to say that when you think about disposition
um the city is really never thinking inclusive of us about things. Um the city, we represent all the people. We we pay taxes, but the city is taking upon themselves to get rid of a hospital and
give it away. And that what we're looking at is a consolidation that's in front of us right now. It's the consolidation of Florida State and your um community hospital. If that ain't consolidation, merger, some other names,
um amalgamation, uh whatever other thing you want to say, that's what's occurring. So, we see a miniature occurrence. And while we say that, oh, it's going to be tough and a lot of details and grant day, how we figure this. Well, how do you figure to
get a a teaching um medical school with a hospital? But guess what? People are laboring to work those details out. And I think that we're advantaged with two uh universities. We got a number one
H.B.CU. We got a top 25 public university. We got talis of state. The the brainy brain powers here to labor the institute that we working with the um good gracious um more uh public
policy institute of our political science public administration. these assets are not found any place. If if there's a community that could um labor through a thought process, it's
Tallahassee Supreme Court, uh legislature, got number one county commission in the state. Um hell, what can't we do with these assets? Then um I think that when we think through um how the city thinks
that the cities don't think about us, they go up 22% on five services targeted against the people in the county. It's not us versus them. It's them versing us. Um the Capitol City Country Club,
they thought it was okay to overlook us. We have not had one word. We've not seen one sheet of paper in the hospital. the fight. They just annex things um indiscriminately as they choose. It's arbitrary. It's capriccious. And we're
always backing up. Now, I've said earlier tonight that um that with respect to the USA line, um there's no speculation in my mind that
race is a factor. Um it's simply is um the voting rights act used to be a component that we thought of representation and um I remember while tonight even hearing the former
mayor talk about efficiency. Could you imagine that word is only floats to the top? Because for years and years before Maddox and Cummings was sitting here, that's not what anybody
thought about first. The first check off was representation and what format of government uh would all of the community be represented in? And um the two of them, not me. I'm a single member district
with a majority black population base. Single member come out of the courts. Boom boom boom boom. But the anomaly to the court ordered um 52. The anomaly is her and him.
Um she said, Mrs. um Johnson said that was not possible. So that's why a lawsuit was filed for the voting rights act of 65 which in spirit sought the inclusion of citizens voices in a
democracy. Um but still if you looked at Mallaloy um at large commissioner um a king I think uh Akyami was at large commissioner. Anybody white been an atlarge commissioner lately? not in this
uh >> Mary and Lily Marian >> Marian Lily Mary and Lily. So, but just counting the numbers of this um century um we've had three black atlarge commissioners in Marian Lley. Um it
almost uh to be honest um about it, intellectually honest, you could say uh do we even need single member district or rel, you know, the county? But if all of the county was to vote and we didn't have single member district, that mean
that the great northeast would hire everybody because it's more people there up there voting. So in order for me to get in the map, get at the table, you single member and do what we've got for him to get there because if you're not
from up there, you have seven commissioners from from the northeast. And uh it's interesting that um that when we see Richardson and you see um Williams Cox
over the city that y'all is a long way from my boyhood of growing up in Tallahassee and not seeing that inclusive uh representation. So tonight
we're not even bothered are riddled by the potential representation. Are we knocking black folk out from the table? That ain't even come up. She said first black woman mayor said we're talking about efficiency.
Everybody up here is talking about the efficiency issue. The cost. You want to pay one government or two? How many you want to pay? And no one has said anything about race. That right there, events long, signals um how far and how upward our community
has moved over the years. And I'm very proud to um make this uh analysis, very proud of um and that we're really only talking about efficiencies and nothing else um as I see it. And then finally,
um, commissioners, I say tonight that, um, to give, um, our community, Hold on, I'm sorry, let me reshape that, to not give, to withhold a decision by the citizens
of our community uh, the choice to think through what they would like to see is a condescending idea by us. to say that people are not sharp, smart enough to get it and we're not going to do this
because they don't have enough information. They're just confused. Again, I remind us that we're in the the United States of America, 3,36 counties. We have the 12th most best educated
community in the United States. And I dare not believe that we should be arrogant enough among ourselves in condescending against one of the sharpest communities
of people in the United States. And I'm willing to trust their judgment. I am willing to not deny them uh a voice as well as a choice in what the 21st century unfolds as a
representative government of the people by the people and for the people. And I guess in part I'm riddled by the number of years that I've taught constitutional law. And uh Commissioner Cumins, you
you'd be surprised that um speaking of constitution of uh article one has the requirement that every uh denial that we take a population count, a census count
every 10 years, I said denial. And this is why from that we we do districtricting. But the state of Texas has ignored the constitution. The state of Florida next month is going to ignore the US
constitution. And there's not been any redistricting, I'm sorry, no census taken from which redistricting is based and would be based on the uh um formation of population. Okay. So, we're looking at
odd times in which democracy um is whistling and marching to a beat. Mr. Chairman, that is not following the Constitution. You know, I don't mind saying publicly that
House Seat 2 is one that Commissioner Maddox uh had the Lawson seat remained intact, it's one that I damn well believe Bill Proctor would have been competitive as a candidate for US House. Damn well. Um
yet through the changing face and forces of democracy, the seat was taken without a census. Some other seats are going to get taken in this session without following US Constitution. And I believe that we owe
the people every opportunity to vote, to decide, and let us not belittle them, uh, to think that we know it all, but they can't, and they don't. Thank you, Chairman. >> Thank you, Commissioner Proctor. Commissioners, listen, we're going to do another round of of debate on this. Listen, I'm going to cap it at 5 minutes
per commissioner. Second round of debate. All right, it's 10 o'clock at night. >> Yeah. Yeah. You give me 30 seconds. >> Yeah. Commissioner Welch, go. >> Okay. Uh, quick question. it. So, it sounds like there's not a lot of support for the non-binding referendum, which I
think in actuality would be us being very deliberate. It'd be more deliberate than doing the consolidation study commission, which sounds like what Commissioner Maddox would be needing and I think all of us would need to move forward. So, let's say in effect, if we voted for the public uh the the
referendum, that would be on the 26th ballot. Let's say it gets 55% support, then Mr. Mr. Administrator, would that then kick off the study commission at that point? Then then we would go into the formulation of a setting a defined period and creating specific >> the next steps would be entirely up to
you. >> Okay. So I would assume that would be the next step. Then let's say this if we go with is there any way to make the non-binding referendum more informative than 75 words. In other words, can we we can't build a structure and say, "Hey, the structure is at this link."
>> Okay. Well, that's my questions then. Um, you know, I think that if you want to be very deliberate about it, the non-binding resolution is that step. You wouldn't be putting this on the ballot till 2028 at that pace and you would have a little more information from the community. So, I can support that. They could very well 7030 against it, right?
And then you would know it'd be done. So, I think that best case scenario, you're looking at a a three-year horizon before this is on a ballot. So, I'll support Commissioner Proctor's motion just to be as deliberate as we got to be to further the conversation. Thank you, Commissioner Welch. Commissioner
Cummings. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I think Commissioner Welch probably just hit on my concern, Mr. County Administrator, County Attorney, is if we vote to have this non-binding referendum, then is it
incumbent upon us to have you, I guess, any any type of uh campaign or media, anything? We can't do that. Just the referendum. >> That's the right question. Yeah. >> So, >> under section 106.113
entitled expenditures by local governments, it prohibits any local government or person acting on behalf of local government from expending or authorizing expenditure of and a person or group may not accept public funds for political advertisement or any other communication sent to electors
concerning an issue, referendum, or amendment including any state question that is subject to a vote of the electors. Okay. There are some exceptions here, but what that effectively means is this committee could not spend money to advocate or try
to kill something that goes on the ballot. >> This reference, Mr. Chairman, >> that's correct. No public funds can be expended for that purpose. >> Ah, and you would draft the language and bring it back. Is that how that would work? Once this board, if this board
decided to move forward with a straw ballot, once you decide what that ballot ballot language is, you cannot expend any public funds as a body to advocate for or against that measure. Now, there
there there are some things you can do. This subsection does not preclude a local government or a person acting on behalf of local government from reporting on official actions of the local government's governing body in an accurate, fair, and impartial manner.
Posting factual information on a government website or imprinted materials. Posting and providing, and I'm going to insert a word here, factual >> factual >> information at a public forum. providing factual information in response to an inquiry or providing information as
otherwise authorized or required by law. But but all of a sudden you have guard rails on in terms of what you can and cannot do once you put something on the ballot. >> Yeah. Thank you, Madam Chair. You have on point you said are you good? >> Um the CSC, how did how did the CSC
uh relate to the language you just cited? Did we not put money for to do a camp? >> I'm not sure. I didn't I wasn't around for that. But what I will tell you is that this amendment was this statute was amended in 2022 and I don't know what
that did to >> come back to commissioner com. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. >> I'm going to go back. You have the floor. >> Well, no. She answered she answered my question. Um the language would be proposed by you I guess and it would
come back to us for the referendum within the the limits of the words. >> Mhm. >> This board would definitely if you decided to move forward with a stroll b straw ballot would have to approve whatever that language would be that would go on. Yes. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Mr.
Chair. That's all I have. >> Thank you O'Keefe. >> All right. I don't like this map as much as you don't like this map. Okay. It's been a great concern of me mine every time a voluntary annexation comes through and we got to approve it because let's be
real, these big chunks are not mom and dad trying to get their quarter acre put into it. It's the new development wanting in or out like where I live. My neighborhood is further away from downtown and the city and it's in the city. But if you throw a stone across
the street closer to the city, that's in Lyon County. Um, and that's those are type of things that don't make sense. And so, and you're right, we could get voluntarily annexed out of existence. But what I don't understand is how consolidating doesn't just immediately
annex everything, right? If if we consolidate into one government, it's one government throughout. Now, well, I guess what we could be saying is we're not going to adopt the property taxes current from the city or something like that, but but conceptually, you go from an
unincorporated and incorporated to one big thing. And so, that that was my thought on this. Now, this the issue with this voluntary annexation issue is one that I I'm interested in us getting and I believe it will come up um if it
isn't already for our charter amendment process. I think that we should have more authority where we truly agree with the city before anything is annexed. Um, but I think that's a specific charter amendment thing, not a consolidation
thing. And I will say if what we were talk if what consolidation was was this commission runs the show for everything, I love it. I'm all in. >> But that's not what consolidation. >> We could do that. But we could do that. >> Why wouldn't we do it? Yeah.
>> Thank you. All right. Well, um, commissioners, um, I'll I'll I'll close this out. >> I'm sorry. >> I was about to take us to a vote. >> Commissioner stepped out. I'm going to need her to step back in, sir. >> Okay. Commissioner Maddox, go ahead.
>> On that the issue of the ballot language, you said it will come back to us, correct? That' be 75 words. Okay. So, it's nonbinding. So technically we could just ask the question of how would you
feel about us looking at cons? I mean I guess it could be whatever we want it to be, right? >> I just I just think I I'm going to say it again. I would like for us to be much more deliberate about this. When we did Blueprint, Blueprint was something we just pulled out in the air. It was a
citizens group and we put on and people there was a big public display of what we were going to do and people felt very comfortable with it. And when we got to the actual ballot, they knew exactly what we were doing. Exactly what we were doing. I just I would like for us to go
down that road, but you know, teachers on. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Max. Again, guys, listen, this is not the to my opinion, this is the the most um transparent way. We're we're essentially asking the community's
opinion. I'm asking their permission to carry the conversation, right? We would never if if if it failed, we would like, okay, we got it. In a way, I actually think it provides clarity for the next 15 years to not have the conversation again, right? And that's I that that's my opinion. Um, all right,
commissioners, we're No, we're going to I'm I'm going to call the vote, Commissioner Proctor. >> Um, okay. The current motion on the floor moved by Commissioner Proctor uh seconded by Commissioner Cummings is to have a non-binding referendum and have
staff bring us back options um for the 2026 general election um asking voters if they support consolidation. All those in favor of the motion signify by saying I >> I all opposed. >> Nay.
>> Passes. Commissioner uh come you in favor passes 52 um with commissioner O'Keefe and Maddox in descent. Commissioners, great conversation. I love that we can have debates like that and everyone get
along. Um all right, let's bust out three more items. Let's do this. Let's do this quickly. I move staff recommendation. >> Okay, >> Mr. County Administrator, you got it. The uh item item number 20 before you is related to the appointment of commissioners to the canvasing board.
Again, pursuant to Florida statutes. The item requests the board appointment of one eligible commissioner to serve as a substitute member of the canvasing board. Also recommends that the chairman appoint an eligible commissioner to serve as the alternate member. Uh the eligible commissioners are provided
there before you and I'll Mr. Chairman, I'll hand it back to you to facilitate the vote. >> Mr. Chairman, I move Commissioner Maddox. is seasoned, experienced, and does an excellent job. Camping, >> I second. >> Cool. Real quick, guys, let's do this all in one motion. For my chairman appointment, I'll appoint Commissioner
Welch. So, can you include that in your motion? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Um, do we have room for one more? Right. >> Yes. >> Okay. Will you nominate someone else? Include it. >> Whoever. Um, >> what's the other name? >> Welch. >> Yeah, we only need two. >> You only need two.
>> Oh, okay. So, we got Welch and who? >> Yes. MIT Maddox I'm sorry 10 o'clock at night hear these M's okay commissioner >> Maddox >> okay >> yes ma'am >> so that means Mr. Sure. >> Just like statutoily, I think you're
required to be on the canvasing board. So, you would have to appoint a a sitting member, which would be like your substitute. The language is weird, right? And then the alternate would be the third one in line. So, you'd be one, I'd be two, Maddox would be three. >> So, that means I need to do one more.
>> No, that just us, but you would be the sitting board member on the canvasing board. So, if you didn't want to be on the canvasing board, I don't know how that would work. So the default sitting member is the chairman. If for some reason the chair cannot serve
can it says the three criteria cannot serve whatever that means maybe scheduling conflicts whatever uh you are uh up for election and you have opposition you would be disqualified. or if you have already or plan to actively
participate in a campaign for a candidate who is on the ballot, you cannot serve. So I guess the first question is Chair Mcaban, are you eligible to serve? >> I will not be eligible to serve. >> Okay. So that changes things. So we need
a new sitting member. >> Can I nominate Commissioner Welch? >> You. >> You can't make motions. You do. So someone else >> will you nominate >> uh I move Commissioner Maddox and I want to point out the gruelling deep skill of
service. Can >> I make a suggestion guys guys for >> I'll I'll defer I enjoy being on the canvasing board and that's why I want to do this. But I will defer to Commissioner Maddox cuz I know he enjoys it too. And then in the case that Commissioner Maddox gets an opponent in
his campaign then I'll do it. But then if then you have to we have to appoint a >> another alternate. Yeah. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. >> Well, you can't do that right now. >> No, we can't do that. >> Yeah. And then if you miss, I can fill in for you. >> Perfect. That's cool. Commissioner Proctor, you have a motion on the floor. You good with that,
>> sir? Are you Are you good with uh recommendations? >> Yes, sir. >> Commissioner Cummings seconded. >> Not you second his motion. >> You seconded the motion. >> Oh, I second. >> Everyone, Madam Attorney, got that. Cool. All those in favor of the motion for signify by saying I. I.
>> Any opposed? Passes unanimously. Number 21. Item number 21. Commissioners uh seeks your approval to appoint commissioners to uh the big bend uh continuum of care board, CRTPA, uh the juvenile justice uh circuit uh 2 advisory board, the
educational facilities authority and the workforce development. >> Chair move the slate as current the current slate of commissioners that already serve in this capacity. >> Second commissioners, uh quick on discussion, commission minor, did you want to talk on this or you just want to move the item? >> No, I just I support the motion on the
floor and seconded it. >> Okay. Um will any commissioner would any commissioner volunteer to being on the juvenile uh juvenile justice circuit 2 advisory board? >> Ban I will with you chair if you don't want to sir. >> Okay. Yes ma'am. I I'll amend my motion
to include uh commissioner uh >> Cummings in that position. >> Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much. Who moved the motion? Commissioner Maddox. Seconded by who? >> Commissioner Miner. >> Okay. Motion moved by Commissioner Maddox. Second by Commissioner Miner.
All those in favor of the motion signify by saying I. >> I. >> Passes unanimously. Next item. >> Item 22. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner seeks full board consideration the appointment of one citizen to the early learning coalition and the two applicants are provided there before you.
>> Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. >> Commissioner Cummings, you recognize. >> I move Rose. >> Second. Okay. We um we have a nomination by Commissioner Cummings, second by Commissioner Welch. All those in favor of the motion sign by saying I. Hi. >> Hi. Awesome. Commissioners, listen.
We're on >> one speaker, >> non agenda item. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Oh, wow. You've been here for 7 hours. >> God bless you. >> I I am impressed. >> Jennifer Don, >> so I consolidation. Can we make it where the
county voters can vote for the city commissioners and the mayor? because what the city does affects the county and there's 300,000 people who are under represented. >> Okay, thank you for those comments. >> Who is she? >> Jennifer Dom, right? Jennifer Dom,
that's your name for the record. Okay, >> Miss Miss D looks like you going to have opportunity to say whether or not you want to look at college consolidation as a whole. Tell >> your neighbors in So what we voted you to do was a straw poll. So it'll be on the ballot for you and everybody else in Leon County to
vote on. But it doesn't mean it >> nonbinding though. It's basically he wants to look at it >> that's what it would accomplish with thinking through whe >> Oh, that's not possible. It's not possible.
>> It's illegal. >> All right. Commissioners, M County administrator, any business to discuss? >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just very very quickly, I know how late it's been. uh you will not meet again until we uh are hosting uh as we like to say until after
we host the worlds. Uh and so I just wanted to ask Carrie to come up provide two minutes of a just a plug for you. >> Two minutes Carrie >> 31 days to go one month until January 10th. Leon County will be the center of
the global running world. As of today, we're expecting elite teams of athletes from 65 countries. These aren't just participants. These are the best runners in the world. >> Yes. And you guys are now getting some
some world swag bags. Yes. Coming your way. >> We all get >> um Yes, exactly. Um course modifications are underway now. Temporary buildings are being erected. >> Yeah, bro. There is going to be challenge areas are a tribute to both
Tallahassee and Florida. Their runners are going to be running through a 100 foot replica of the historic capital building running through. There's going to be roller coaster hills, mud, water, sand, alligator logs. There are five
world championship races. And this event isn't just for the elites. We want the whole community involved. So, like I said, we've got this is the actual medal. >> Okay.
>> For the world champions >> this here. I had to do a little show and tell. Had to do a little show and tell. >> Did you give us one? >> And then you will get one. >> You're going to run the course. Um, and also like I said, it's not just
for elites. We want the whole community involved and coming to the community fun run. This is the community fun run medals. Again, still weighty, still nice. Bottom line is this is a historic moment for Leyon County. Truly historic
moment. Um, we are stepping onto the world stage. So, again, I mean, this was I'm I'm just being really brief here. I could go on so much more, but I know in the sake of time, I'm going to show you just a super quick video. Super super quick. >> How long is it going to be? >> I think it's less than 30 seconds. Less
than 30 seconds. also have information forthcoming about some of the other events are all surrounding with world. So you have more information coming your way. >> So now we're off and racing the final event here.
[Music] raises the arms out. He's going to take out the title. >> But man, you could have run all that. >> Thank you so much. >> You'll be >> I thought I saw you up there, man. >> Yeah, it was very It was very brief
moment there, but commissioners, obviously, very big deal. You'll be receiving more information. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you, Mr. County Administrator. Madam Attorney, >> nothing. Thank you. Okay, commissioners. Think we can keep it three minutes? Commissioner? >> Yes, sir. Late. I know. I know. I know we all been waiting all all day and I
know some people have some business to discuss. Commissioner Cummings, you recognize. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a couple items. Uh the NAACP in conjunction with Coco is having a burial uh dedication this Saturday. And I'd
like to ask a proclamation for uh the organization as well as one of its civil rights warriors, Reverend AJ Richardson, to be presented at that function. >> Do you want to present it? >> Um I'll be out of town, so >> Okay.
>> I think we could designate maybe somebody >> to present it. I'll prepare it though. Cool. >> I'll make sure it's prepared. And also, uh Mr. Wesley Sheffield, >> we got to build on that. Let's build on that. Um motion. >> Oh, that's right. >> Yeah. Motion for proclamation, second by
Commissioner Maddox. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> And I'd like to request one more uh proclamation for Mr. Wesley Sheffield who's associated with that Sheffield body shop on 4th Avenue for years and years, but he's turning 93.
>> Oh. >> And he's having a birthday celebration next Sunday, and I'd like to present a proclamation at that celebration as well. Okay. >> So, I move for the proclamation. >> Proclamation requested by Commissioner Cummings, second by Commissioner Miner. All those in favor signify by saying I.
>> I. >> I. Uh, and then finally, I just want to thank you for a great meeting. I thank county administrator and all this staff and our county attorney for the remarkable work that they do and want to wish everybody a
>> Here's the Taly Democrat. Uh, Chuck Goodart um passed away in a in a car crash. Uh he's a former park manager at the city of Tallahassee, known for his outstanding work on the city's trails. Uh one of his friends on Facebook said he made uh Tallahassee a truly running
friendly town. Uh and also wishing Megan, his daughter, a full and speedy recovery from the crash. And then finally, Bob Lotain, who is a community activist and communications consultant, former candidate for the Tal Tallahassee city commission. Um, Leyon County is a great place to live primarily because of
its people and uh, we lost three outstanding ones recently. I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge them. Uh, and our condolences to their friends and family. Um, on a more upbeat note, um, you all have heard me talk about the Mardigra route between New Orleans and Mobile, Alabama. Runs twice daily for
passenger rail. Um I participated virtually at the Southern Rail Commission meeting last Friday and uh we got news about just how successful it's been. Uh one of the officials there has called it one of the most successful retail rail launches in Amtrak history.
They've got um 46,000 rides in the last 4 months since it opened. That's about 458 passengers a day. And the customers that ride this Mardigra route line have a 96% customer satisfaction rating. So, why is all this important? This tells us
that a new passenger rail line that opened just west of us uh outside the state of Florida is doing extremely well. And this is good information as we go to the legislature um and um asking them to have us join the Southern Rail Commission and try to get passenger rail
restored throughout North Florida. Um number three, I wanted to I know Arty's probably um at his desk working on the agenda item for tomorrow. Is he here? I heard a rumor that it's his birthday today. Is it your birthday? Happy birthday, Mr. White.
>> And then finally, I just want to wish everybody a want to wish everybody a great holiday. Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, and happy Quanza. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you for the sentiment. Thank you for a great meeting, Commissioner Miner. Mr. Vice Chair. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I want to
second all the happy holidays to everybody. And I'm asking for four proclamations. One uh is to recognize BellaBella's 25th anniversary coming up in July to be presented here with their food catering the meeting. >> Second.
Everyone got the motion. Proclamation request by Commissioner um Mr. Vice Chair, second by Commissioner Miner. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. It's harder to say that after 10:00. I've noticed really quickly. >> Uh second. Uh it in January 28th will be
40 years since the Challenger disaster. And so I'd like a proclamation uh recognize that mark to be presented at the Challenger Learning Center. >> Second. >> Proclamation requested by Mr. Vice Chair, seconded by Commissioner Miner. All those in favor signify by saying I.
>> I. >> I. >> Thirdly, the Shady Grove Voices of Victory recorded an album that was recently considered for a Grammy. Um and so I'd like to recognize them. uh with a proclamation. >> Who is it again? >> The Shady Grove Primitive Baptist Church
Voices of Victory out of the chairs. >> Awesome. >> Which one? Number one or two? >> Number one. >> Number one. >> Move uh proclamation requested by Commissioner O'Keefe, seconded by Commissioner >> Cummings. All those in favor signify saying I. >> I. I.
And finally to be presented at their event uh to recognize 2026 certified registered nurse in neessus week January 18th through 24 question the proclamation requested by commissioner O'Keefee and
is it seconded seconded by commissioner proctor. All those in favor by saying I. >> I. >> Great job. Have a good night. >> Thank you Mr. Vice Chairman. Commissioner Welch. >> Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. Uh just wanted to say uh you know great job um
Carrie and staff on World Cross Country. That's going to be before we meet again. So I was going to bring that up. Uh she told me during the break that they have tickets purchased from 49 of the 50 states. So if you know anybody in Nebraska who's into cross country, please reach out to them so we can fill
up the calendar there. Um and then uh you know I don't know I might be stealing your thunder here Mr. chairman, but FSU soccer won their fifth national championship I think last night and it was exciting. I tuned in in the like 85th minute and they won in the 87th
minute. So, it was like really well timed, man. I showed up and started watching and boom, they they hit they got their goal. So, uh you know, >> requested by uh the media past chairman seconded by Commissioner Proctor. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> That was for the soccer team.
>> Yes, sir. Fifth National Championship. Uh, it's a dynasty. FSU is a football school. Uh, and that's all I got. Mr. Chair. >> Awesome. Commissioner Maddox. >> Your proclamation request. First proclamation for Fairy Middle School's girls basketball division 1A championship victory over Griffin Height
Griffin Middle School 33 to 18. >> Second. >> Proclamation requested by Commissioner Maddox, seconded by Commissioner uh, Cummings. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> Second proclamation. RA middle school girls basketball team division 2 champions over Swift Creek Middle School
30-6. Raw went undefeated this year. >> Let's go. Second >> proclamation requested by Commissioner Maddox, seconded by Mr. Vice Chair. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> Third proclamation conversations when
Nicole is uh celebrating 10 year their 10 year anniversary on March the 2nd, 2026. request a proclamation to be to be presented at the end of February. >> Second. >> Proclamation requested by Commissioner Maddox, seconded by Commissioner
Cummings. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. Last not least, congratulations to as U. Jameus Winston described it, the best football dynasty at Florida State University, our women's soccer team and
their fifth national championship. It's pretty huge. and have a good Christmas. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> Oh, happy birthday to my daughter Miley. She's turned 13 or 14. >> Don't tell her I did that.
>> Happy birthday to her. She turned 14 on the on the 16th. >> Happy birthday. >> Happy birthday to her. >> This is your birthday. >> Of course. >> I I have it on my calendar for former county commissioner Bruce Host. you
know, he passed and there I think it's a memorial. I believe it's it's tomorrow at 11 at 11:30. It's on my calendar. I'm not sure. Do you remember where it was count administrator? >> It's um >> Oh, it's at Mission Barbecue.
>> Yeah, that's correct. >> Yes, Mission Barbecue. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Awesome. Yes, >> Proctor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. U commissioners, I'm excited. Thank you all. Delightful meeting, chairman. Um, great job. Um,
county administrator, I wanted to ask um if you could bring um an item back uh given granting us uh understanding of um the old Bangbridge Road Health Department, its availability
um um is how much space is there that we might um be able to channel um um a service agency in. and also if we could get a status on the
health department on Orange Avenue and whether or not it's fully occupied or what space is available. Um, thank you very much. Thank you so much. >> Um, >> agenda items. Yeah. >> Yeah. Item for agenda. Agenda. >> A second motion.
>> Motion on the floor by Commissioner Proctor, second by Mr. Vice Chair. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Um, request for a proclamation honoring Bethlehem Church this Sunday for their 160th year anniversary. >> Second.
>> Okay. >> Proclamation requested by Commissioner Proctor, second by Commissioner Cummings. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> Okay. a proclamation honoring the retirement of the senior bishop of AM church, Bishop AJ Richardson, who's
pastor Beth for number of years and who will be the U featured. >> Did you just ask for that? >> No, mine is for the >> Oh, okay. >> his work with NAAC. >> Mine the first one is for Bethl and the second one was to recognize Bishop Richardson. So the second one is to
recognize Bishop Richardson and his years of contribution as pastor >> to the church. >> To the church. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you did. Okay. We got a second, Mr. >> Okay. Um, Commissioner Proctor has a motion on the floor for proclamation seconded by Commissioner Cummings. All those faire the motion signify by saying
I. >> I. >> Mr. Chairman, um I I need point out today. I thank you for catching me as I was falling out of my chair and um attorney chassis um um Ostein said I
don't know to a question that was raised. You know, that was a great confirmation. I miss Ostein, I never heard you say that word before, though. I've said it frequently, but to hear you say I don't know. >> You said she was mistaken.
>> Okay. She >> that was quite a moment for me and it says how much we uh we value and and rely on you and you never use those words. So, that was amazing. Um tonight uh there is a celebration at Jay Gaither
Community Center where Jay Gaither um community is celebrating a gayla um and it's a wonderful uh place. I supported it but didn't get a piece of chicken and u but much love to and much love to all of district 1. Happy holidays and I want
you all to know district one that I love you and there is nothing you can do about it. and we're going to see you all next year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Commissioner Proctor. All right, commissioners. Uh couple quick things. Um first, um Okay. Will someone
uh uh request a proclamation for FSU's 175th birth birthday? >> So move. >> Second. >> Okay. All right. Motion by Commissioner Maddox, seconded by uh Commissioner Cummings. All those in favor signify by saying I. I.
Next guys, we have uh our brother Nick Maddox's birthday this Thursday, man. >> Happy early birthday. 25 years old again. >> 20 years now. >> Young the young buck next door.
>> Um commissioners, a couple things. One, I I I did notice. Um I'm guilty of it, too. We had a ton of proclamations tonight amongst this board. Um, so I'm going to encourage you all got if to do those proclamations. Um, sometimes at
the events or wherever the the it's special to those receiving the proclamations. Um, I I worked with the county administrator. I think you saw the first agenda came out. We have like six proclamations and think of the time right now. And so we just kind of worked on the scaling it back a little bit so we had time for business.
What I would like to do is I like it when we have time to debate items, especially when we uh we have, you know, whether it be the controversial or stuff that I know is important to other commissioners. And so I just encourage you all if you can to work with staff to
do the proclamation wherever you choose. And if it is important to you to do it in the chambers, just let us know and we and we'll make sure it's on the agenda. Um, but if it's if it's not that important, right? I know sometimes like I've done a proclamation at this event or this event, let's continue to try to
do that so that way we have adequate time to to handle business. But I do know um it's a little bit more formal formal to do it here. So just just let us know. Um next guys, I hope everyone has, you know, a wonderful holiday break. You
know, it's uh it's the best time of year. You know, everyone get to get to recharge and relax a little bit. And um I mean think about all the items we just discussed in this meeting and I mean everyone's in a good mood, everyone's happy. I mean I think everyone you know got a little bit what they wanted
tonight and I think that's the way it's supposed to be. >> Mr. Chairman, >> no no you're not recognized Commissioner Brock. We're about to >> Jelle is smiling. I don't know what she's taking us. She's just smiling. >> It's her boss's birthday Thursday. >> It's 10:30. You know she's smiling.
>> Commissioner Kee, you got to say something. I just wanted to wish you your first merry Christmas as a father. >> Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I mess I'm ready to get out of here. >> God, I'm on I'm on baby duty in the morning. >> All right, commissioners, we stand ajourned. >> Okay.
[Music] Part: 2
[music] Ooh, heat. All >> [music] >> right. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Nice to be back in the in the chambers. I will call this meeting in order at 3:01
p.m. And Commissioner Miner, you are recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to introduce um uh the person who will be delivering our invocation this afternoon. Uh Reverend Sylvia Jones serves the congregation of Mount Zion AM Church in Havana, Florida. Of course, we
also know her as the co-chair of the Capitol Area Justice Ministries's affordable housing committee, which uh successfully advocated for dedicated funding for affordable housing. Uh Reverend Jones, thank you very much for uh joining us today, and we'd be honored if you could deliver our invocation.
>> Amen. Let us pray. Our father in heaven, thank you for allowing us to gather in this Leyon County Commission meeting where the well-being of each constituent of Leyon County is our primary concern. Open the hearts and the mind of minds of each commissioner to your wisdom as we
navigate the complexities of governing. Give each of them your wisdom and the discernment as they t tackle each issue. Bless them with the strength and boldness necessary to fight for each citizen of Lyon County. Always keep in front of them that homelessness is not
normal. No one should have to sleep in the woods. A school lunch should not be the only meal that a child can look forward to during the day. Gun violence is not normal. Immigration process is not normal.
Also bless the commissioner's aids, county staff, and all who do the grunt work to make this county work efficiently. In your holy name, I pray. Amen. >> Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> All right, commissioners, we have two proclamations, both by Commissioner
Maddox. Commissioner Maddox, you are recognized. The first proclamation is for recognizing the Fair View Middle School football team as division one champions. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, as you said, the first approximation
I have, Mr. Chair, is for Fairview Middle School. If if the middle school come up, the football team come up. Coaches and principal. Um, stand. >> Okay, they just stand. Okay, >> come on up. Um, I'm a little biased to
this team because uh my daughter Miley Maddox and down Mariam uh Roger, stand up y'all. Y'all y'all was part of Stand Stand up. Hurry up. Stand up. Jesus Christ. Uh we're cheerleaders uh on the team. So So I'm I'm I'm really excited about today. Later on, Mr. here just to
show the athletic excellence that that principal Myers is is fostering over at uh Fair View. I'll be asking for a proclamation to celebrate the championship girls basketball team that just won last night against Griffin. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. Griffin. So really proud of them.
Uh the proclamation reads, "Whereas Fairview Middle School Falcons have upheld a a proud tradition of athletic excellence and sportsmanship since the school's establishment. And whereas for the last five years, the Fairview Middle School football program has flourished under the leadership of head coach Mr.
Alfonso Zo Dorsy. While the program has grown with a consistent coaching staff, including two new additional coaches this year. And whereas under the exceptional leadership of co coach Dorsey, the Falcons have not only excelled in a athletic competition but
also ma maintained a high standard of academic achievement with one with over half of the team constantly making honor role. Let's give a hand for that. [applause] And whereas the Falcons football program requires its players to uphold high
academic standards, including maintaining their GPA, completing weekly grade checks, and consistently demonstrating good behavior in the classroom and throughout the school. And whereas coach Dorsy and the coaching staff make it make it a priority to engage with players both in the
classroom and in the hallways, ensuring they are role models of excellence, responsibility, and sportsmanship at all times. And whereas the Falcons achievements on the football field are a direct reflection of their dedication, teamwork, and hard and hard work with an
impressive record of four championship game appearances in two hardearned championship trophies in the last 5 years. That is a dynasty right there. And whereas the Falcons uh showcased resilience and determination culminating
in a triumphant victory on October the 7, 2025 by defeating Mr. Pro, you going to hate this part. Frank Nims Middle School uh Trojans, thereby earning the prestigious title of division one champions. And whereas the achievements
of the Fair View Middle School Falcons highlight the importance of youth sports in building character, leadership, and long a lifelong values within our community. Now, therefore, it be proclaimed by the board of Leon County Commissioners in Leon County, Florida, that we recognize the Fairview Middle
School 2025 Division 1 football champs and commend the entire team, coaching staff, and school community for their outstanding accomplishments, commitment, and excellence. This is signed by the commission, attested to by the county
administrator. Congratulations. [applause] So, we want to thank you. We hold our students to very high regard. We have three rules that we have all of our students follow. One is be safe, be responsible, and be respectful. and we live by these
day in and day out. And because the football season is over does not mean that their job is over. They are going to go on to continue to be excellent representations for Fairview Middle School. I also want to thank Coach Dorsy. Coach Dorsy is our building maintenance supervisor. Um we he has brought on additional coaching staff. We
have a variety of coaches who have joined our team over the last several years. Super consistent, but more importantly, they are in our schools every day. We have found that the more interaction that they have with our students, the better off our students are. We're really proud of them. And I want to thank everybody for being here
today. >> Thank you, Commission. >> Commissioner Wil, as soon as they're done taking that picture, you are recognized. >> Hey, before you take that picture, I just want to say congratulations, guys. Uh my son was a captain on the Montford middle school football team and I asked him at the beginning of the year how
things were looking and he's like yo pops Fairview is going to be tough. All right. So hey Mford snuck one in on you guys last year but you know that juggernaut over there at Fairview congratulations. I just want to say you guys represent the school district in Lyon County very well. Coach, coaches,
administrators, great job. Commissioner Cummings, you're recognized. >> Thank you. >> Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. While they're gathering for the picture, I just want to congratulate the coaches and all the team members. You guys are awesome.
You're great. I've got a special affinity for Fair View because my son attended Fairview Middle School as well. So, congratulations you guys. And hold up, I want to get on the picture as well. [laughter] >> Well, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say
something, but I want to get on the picture, too. Go get Go get on the picture, Commissioner Proctor. This doesn't work. >> This doesn't work. position. You want to look that way. >> Mr. Mr. Chairman, might I make a comment
or so? >> Absolutely. Okay. Um, Commissioner Maddox, who's who's the quarterback of this team? >> Where's our Where's our quarterback? >> Landon. >> Where's he at? There you go.
>> No, you're listening. >> All right. >> Brother Landon, how you doing? >> Good. >> Um, you played my my position that I played. uh and you got to be pretty tough to lead them to the championship. Congratulations to all young men. We're very proud of you and we're very proud
uh I see school board member Jones um uh uh board member Jones. Uh okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. And what I want to say uh to the principal uh school board member Jones is we're going to have a celebration. Uh we're going to have a
celebration. I'mma pay for it. Uh, Commissioner Maddox is going to pay for it at large. Commissioner Cummings is going to pay for it and and and Mr. Jones going to pay. We going the four of them. Anybody else want to jump on the wagon, [laughter] but we celebrate
championships in district one. So for the excellence has has been wrought and please note that championship uh is a transferable um um quality because the discipline,
the perseverance and those things that it takes to be the champion over football uh are attributes that you take into life. And if you use the same stuff uh and stuff social and things um uh
academic uh success will unfold. But you got the stuff because you're you're football champions. Just take the same stuff and use it elsewhere. So to the principal uh what's her name? >> Mayor.
>> Sister Mayor um please identify a date that early next semester. I don't know if a Saturday is permissible. what the rules allow or after school or during school, but we're going to put um that amount of money to have a good
celebration for the young men. And uh that's what I'm committing uh publicly. If y'all don't come through, they still going to have it cuz I'm going to pay for it. So, but I want your help, but if you ain't, I will. Um I want also to recognize uh in chamber this this
afternoon, uh Mrs. Vivian Hobbs, Dr. Vivian Hobbs is here and she was a teacher uh at FAMU High School uh when I was a kid and uh she knows uh attorney Hobbs, your mother knows that at Famu
High, we had only one team. So when I was in the eighth grade, we had >> Mr. Proctor, how long ago was that? About 80 years. >> And when I was in the itty bitty grade, we had to go get knocked around by the big boys for about 2 three years before you start playing. but that you could
play among and with yourselves as great family how you you just sat on the bench and got beat up in practice and all like that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. We're looking forward to a great championship party, celebration, whatever you want to call it. That's what we're going to do. Thank you.
All right, commissioners. Next proclamation is by Commissioner Maddox recognizing Miss Junth, Florida, Corin Hobbs. >> Thank you. Again, this this uh proclamation is very personal for me because uh these were my neighbors some years ago and I got to see this young
lady uh as a baby. So, this is this is uh special for me. If the family could come up, y'all can come up here. Family up. Y'all come on up now. Mr. Mr. Chair, the proclamation reads,
"Whereas Junth stands as a sacred commemoration of June 19th, 19 1865, the day when the final enslaved African-Ameans in the United States learned of their freedom, marking a turning point in the history of our nation and symbolizing resilience,
perseverance, and the ongoing pursuit of justice. And whereas the Miss Junth Florida USA pageant empowers young girls and ladies to learn life principles, self and cultural awareness in the program scholarship, leadership,
cultural pride, and a dedication to community service. And whereas Miss Karen Elise Hobbs, a 16-year-old high school junior and resident of Leyon County, has has thoroughly worked her way through
hard work, character, and vision, uh, earned the distinguished title of Miss Junth, Florida, USA 2025. And whereas as Miss Junth Florida USA, Miss Karen Hobbs
champions the platform of food food insecurity, partnering with Hunger Florida, I mean Hunger Fight Florida to help prepare hundreds of thousands of meals and thousands of books for children across the state, ensuring that
families in need receive vital support. And whereas Karen Hobbs has earned distinguished recognition at the national level, receiving the best essay award, the Miss Wall Street award during the 2025 Miss Junth USA pageant. She
actively shares the Junth message of freedom, education, and empowerment at events across Florida and is spearheading an online book drive to provide students with books about Junth and Florida's freedom day. And whereas
Karen is a passionate advocate for fashion and sustainability, working professionally as a model and recently gracing the runway for Color Trees, a black womanowned New York Design House, as well as being cast for Orlando
International Fashion Week. And whereas Karen Hobbs is deeply committed to community engagement, serving the advisory board committee for the Florida&M University Cooperative Extension and acting as a student leader in in FAMU's forestry and conserv uh
conserv conservatory education summer program. And whereas Karan's academic and creative achievements uh include winning her high school 2024 Black History Month essay contest, earning first place in the 2023 Leyon County
Schools District History Fair in the middle school documentary film category, and presenting the lifetime achievement award to acclaimed actor Danny Glover at the Global Peace Urban Fest 360 film festival in Orlando. Now therefore be it
proclaimed by the board of Leyon County Commissioners of Leon County, Florida do hereby recognize Karen Elise Hobbs, Miss Junth, Florida, USA 2025 and encourage all members of our community to join in celebrating her achievements supporting her continued growth as a powerful
ambassador for the legacy and future of Junth. This signed by the commission and attested to by the county administrator. Congratulations >> [applause] >> Good afternoon. I am truly honored to be here to be accepting this proclamation
and it's been my honor to be able to service the Big Ben. Um being able to package over 140,000 meals for families who are struggling with food insecurity here. It's truly warmed my heart, especially with everything going on um in the world currently, to be able to
use this platform to uh commit good acts and to put good into the world. So, thank you so much for this proclamation and I look forward to working with uh the county in the future uh for food and security purposes. And thank you from the bottom of my heart. >> [applause]
>> Commissioner Proctor. Um before we take that photo because I think Commissioner Hobbs is trying to exit to get on another picture and I'm going to follow her. You know, uh Miss Hobbs, um we congratulate you and [clears throat] all
that you're representing and each of those uh sparkles and stars and diamonds in your crown uh represent so much uh for June Junth. uh queen. Uh the legacy
of Junth as well, you know, uh is so uh symbolic but real uh to struggles ongoing uh here in America. Uh you uh as I look at who's behind you, uh your your
grandfather, Colonel Hobbs, uh great man. Your grandmother uh Dr. Vivian Hobbs led multiple championships of debate for Florida&M debate I mean national debate
um looking to that and um your father uh your mother outstanding and you know you think about writing writers uh your daddy is among the very best of writers and your and your your grandmother's an
English professor I mean it's tight and right follow the footprints which are yours is called legacy. And if you just follow nobody else, me, none of these people, follow what you got and it's going to lead you somewhere good. So we
say again, congratulations. Great family. >> Commissioner Cummings, you're recognized. >> Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. Just briefly, Karine, we just want to congratulate you. We're so proud of you. You come from a a legacy of great people, great
educators. Your mom, your dad, attorney Hobbs. I love your grandmom, Miss Vivian Hobbs, who is one of my sorority sisters, and you have just upheld that great legacy. So, you are making your own way, your own roads, and I see
nothing but success in your future. So, thank you. We love you, and congratulations. And I want to take a picture as well. Okay. [laughter] anybody. >> Thank you all so much. >> Commissioner O'Keefe, you're recognized. [clears throat] >> Just while everyone's in the picture, I
just want to say congratulations and thank you for being such a fantastic example. >> [clears throat] >> All right, commissioners. We are now citizens to be heard on consent and nonaggended items. Mr. County Administrator, do we have any speakers? >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We do. First off, we have a couple of speakers
joining us by Zoom. First speaker, Carmen Little Nissan and and uh I apologize if I mispronounced your name. >> Good afternoon everyone. It is Carmen Little. Thank you for having me today.
I am here to to talk. Well, I first I would like to say that I live in the the Bob White area in the Sherwood community area for probably more than 20
years now. And for then I've seen a lot of growth within that with personal um community housing or residence upgrade and also the road surfacing. But there's one thing that or two things that I want to bring to the group
because I'm concerned it help us to grow as a community and so far certain infrastructures are not yet are in not in the future not yet there and for those are in terms of
the the fiber internet fiber and also natural gas in our I have made my research even recently to see that those are not in our community or at this moment not in the future
development. What I want to ask the community the committee here to see whether or not this is can be developed in the future or what is the future of us having such infrastructure
because what I see as an an individual it's shows us as what you call an institutional um what do you call it some call it someone help something else but I'll call it institutional inequity
in the sense that we are not able to grow because what is in place is not there for us to grow so is there any comment as to where we are in this area this is a sharehold community on Bob White Drive and I wanted to see how this
can be an item going forward work. >> I think I think that's it. Mr. County Minister, next speaker. >> Thank you very much. Next speaker, >> calling Max Epstein. Note, Max, it doesn't appear that Mr. Estebstein is on
the line. Uh, final speaker, Jennifer Dom. Hi, I am coming to speak about agenda number 12. The James Madison Institute in partner with the Heritage Foundation are both directly involved with project
2025. The Village Square is directly involved with the James Madison Institute through materials they provide and events that they put together. I would like to refrain from using taxpayer dollars to fund such a right-wing agenda, as underlying as it
may be. While I know there is much value in the Village Square program, I'd like the commission to look more closely at the involvement of this controversial group and perhaps regulate the program more. Thank you, >> Mr. Administrator. And is there any more
speakers? >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes our speakers on consent and non-aggenda items. >> Okay, great. So, sorry, Mr. Chair, last >> number 12. >> Item 12. >> All right, commissioner. So, we are on consent. Before I entertain a motion on
consent, I do just want to say this. We have a a very steep or as I would call it deep general business and public hearing agenda today. So, I expect us to um have a robust discussion. As always, I don't think this goes without saying,
but I'm not worried about this board, but you know, I assume there'll be some back and forth and debating. Let's keep it collegial, and we'll all walk out here, friends, like we typically do. All right. With that being said, I'm looking for a motion to approve consent.
>> Moved by uh Commissioner Welch, second by Commissioner Maddox. Is there any debate? >> Commissioner O'Keefe. >> Thank you. I just had a quick question. Yes, sir. on that number 12 uh the village square events. Do
do um do we know how much of that allocation is going to events that are co-involved with the James Madison Institute? >> I'd ask Matt to come up and maybe provide a little information on that.
>> Thank you. Uh Mr. Chairman, the contract that we have with the Village Square does not earmark any funding to go to any of those events. any of those events >> if there should be to James Madison Institute or any programming at JamesMadison Institute. Our contract does not fund that. Our contract
primarily funds the created equal event that this commission is aware of as part of county funding. >> Gotcha. And so the village square has all other kinds of sources of funding. >> They do. >> Ours is only specific to the ones we focus on. For example, created equal. >> That's correct. >> Thank you, >> Commissioner Maddox.
>> Thank you. Um, I understood the young lady's uh comment about Village Square, but I think the thing about it is Village Square is an organization that allows for I guess perspective and commentary from both sides. Um, it is I mean, Commissioner
O'Keefe clarified none none of our dollars are going to any of those organizations is going to village square. But what I can say about I've always appreciated about Villa Square was the perspective was getting the perspective of both sides and and folks being able to make their own decisions
about where they wanted to be based off of unbiased information coming from uh that organization that gives an opportunity for everyone to speak. But I appreciate you coming uh to us because I have would not when you were speaking I was thinking to myself [snorts] the fact that
>> chair Oh, and thank you Commissioner Proctor. Uh I first of all I want to thank Shenton uh Lambi and our executive director of the children's services council sick green for all their meetings this la
last year and a half or so to make sure we can continue to provide valuable services to our our community through the various agencies that that we fund. Uh, and our
president of of our board was here, Mr. Daryl Jones. He's also a member of the Children's Services Council as well. Uh, Commissioner Proctor. Yeah, I've read this. I've studied it, and I think they've done a
good job with the realignment, but I do have a couple of questions just for clarification uh for Chan if you don't mind. Uh when I look at the 14 uh entities
uh that are listed on this agenda item, several of them have been funded through the children's services council uh and have done, you know, done a great job. And so my
understanding of this particular agenda item is that we're removing these 14 agencies from the CHSP uh process. However, if they're not funded through the children's services
council, I believe you all indicated that they can still come back and apply through the CHSP process. Is that am I correct? >> That is correct. commissioner. So those agencies that have been identified, so those programs, it's not those agencies
specifically, those programs, they um have um these are programs that align with funding opportunities right now that CHS um that CSC Leon is providing over $3 million of opportunities that
they can apply for. So, but again and th those are occurring um as we speak for some of those opportunities and one some of them are line items so they don't even have to apply. Um but for those who do apply and don't um are not uh are not funded then they would then be able to
apply for CHSP. >> Now I want to make sure that the entities are clear about this. If they do not apply for funding through the children's services council, is that an
exclusionary measure? If they don't apply through CSC, are they still able to come back to CHSP and apply through that process? >> If they don't apply for CSC, they can still apply for CHSP, but it will be made known to the citizen review teams
that they did not apply for the um opportunity through CSC Leon. But they yes they can still apply. >> Now there are some entities that the children's services council has funded
that are in certain stages of not being able to reapply through the children's services council until certain things are done. now and I don't want to identify any of those entities but if
they are excluded from applying to the children's services council are they allowed to go directly to the CHSP process when it opens? >> Yes, they can still apply for CHSP.
Will that will that be used against them though or are those I know you all use a point system when we go through the process when you have the the um evaluators come to the various entities and evaluate the program there's scoring
that's involved will that be um failure to apply through CSC or not being able to apply through CSC will that result in a lower score for innovation agency. >> We share all information that's provided
to us from uh CS uh from CSC with the citizen review teams. Um then that's that's part of our that we have in place between the county, the city and um CSC where we share data um including how agencies are performing um with the
funding that they provide as well as how they're performing with with CSC with CHSP dollars also. So they may be impacted that way also. We share information with that um if they are a homeless provider, how they're doing with some of their funds that they get
through the um uh continuum of care. So all of that is shared because what and it's not to penalize them. It's specifically to ensure that um we are working together as the funders um here in our community that um to to be as
impactful as possible with the milled dollars that we have. Okay. So to answer your question uh commissioner proctor I believe the the children's services council uh with sanction what's being uh done here what was asked of the children's
services council early on was to adop adapt programs uh similar to to the CHSP process so that we could deal with these 14 entities and perhaps other ones that provide provide direct services for
children and families. However, the board um voted not to do that. >> The board >> the board, the children's service council board uh uh voted not to do that. They also voted not to
um not to have any a similar program. We we have uh [snorts] decided that there are certain areas that we want to focus on. Early learning which falls in line with
the head start and head start now has become a line item in the children's services council budget [clears throat] which rightfully comes out of CHSP. Am I I correct I think? >> Yes. uh we are also
focused on uh through early learning kindergarten readiness as well and those entities that provide services for our for our kindergarteners. Uh one of the things that we are doing right now we have RF RFV
RFP on the streets for our afterchool and summer programs as well. and many or most of these entities are able to apply uh for those funds as well. The only thing I just cautioned and I just know
that everybody and the reason I'm asking these questions, Mr. Lamb, is because I know all of these entities will not be will not be funded. They submit their re responses to the RFP. We have evaluation teams that evaluate the proposals and
then they are scored and depending on where they fall in the scoring process, they might not be funded. And I can almost guarantee that everybody will not be funded. Which is why I want to make sure that those that do not receive
funding will not be excluded from going through the CHSP process for funding of their programs. >> Yes. And so the only thing I'll also add to that is that I'm a little little bit more optimistic because we have been working very much with these agencies to
prepare them for these funding opportunities. We actually have a lunch and learn scheduled next week with ourselves, the city, UPS, and we've worked very very closely with CSC to determine what these agencies need to do
to make sure that they're competitive and receive funding. But you're right, it's not guaranteed. It's a competitive process that CSC has in place, but a couple of things is we what we want to do is make sure that our agencies are well positioned to to to apply and be successful in receiving those dollars,
but also there there's a little bit more confidence of the fact that these are not agencies that are new to CSSE. These are agencies that have been previously funded by um the Children's Services Council. >> Right. Absolutely. And so I I don't
think it's a disadvantage to any of these 14 on on the list as far as the CH a CSC process. And then we have some technical assistance uh with the children services council to assist any
of those that might be might be new uh new to the process. I think we had sentiment. We wanted to see if we could have uh maybe a joint venture or joint funding with the county and with the city, but
we were advised by our general counsel that pursuant to the law uh that created the children services council, we were prohibited from doing that. So, I know our executive director has tried to uh
work um as diligently as she could so that we can uh partner >> from um from a legal standpoint and not an illegal standpoint. And I think the fact
that we have categorized and we pursuant to the needs assessment, we have targeted certain areas to assist our children. And I think those target areas with early learning and kindergarten
readiness uh aligns with CHSP as far as these 14 entities that can directly apply to children's to the children's services council for um for funding. So I think it's a a great undertaking. I
certainly hope that it will be uh successful and successful meaning beneficial to our children bringing services to the children to the point where we can see the needle moving. Uh we we have criteria to determine what programs are
successful for our children and you know what aren't. So I think it's a a great joint undertaking. Uh congratulations and the Children's Services Council from my standpoint is 100%
uh behind this this alignment. >> Thank you. Um >> thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you for the the the questions and the dialogue. Commissioner Cummings, Commissioner Proctor. >> I appreciate you allowing me to uh ask um uh for Commissioner Cummings to frame
her understanding of the item. And um certainly there's been an aligning of the stars um within the children's universe and becoming more um symmetrically uh um fit if you will. And
I appreciate the water that uh you carry and what you've lend uh Commissioner Cummings to solidify uh that seriousness of purpose um in carrying out the mission of the CSC. Um
there are two things in the item that that that concerns me and that is um um our staff was not negligent and our staff uh indicates to us uh on page six
the bottom that the Florida legislature is considering many property tax reform proposals uh including placing a constitutional amendment on the 2026 election ballot. that if approved by voters would impact
the second year of the upcoming 2-year CHS SP funding cycle. It goes on over to page uh seven, notwithstanding, the legislature may also consider and approve statutory proposals that could
significantly impact the county's FY2027 budget. And I lift that up and I appreciate staff not being negligent omitting the real uh economic um realities that within a month uh
Florida's legislature would take up in our very faces across the street. But with that said, I would like to pause and not lock ourselves into a $15,000 minimum or to remove the 7.5 cap. We're
not even sure uh Mr. Chairman um what our status financially will be and I think to um set this $15,000 >> [snorts] >> um minimal award when we may not even have salaries ourselves
uh and you know Mr. Long don't have his salary that would be tragic uh but we don't know. So the item indicates to us that after the session uh staff would come back and update us and before we
lock into um because four I believe four bills have been um Ken Mars you might know a little bit better but that there have been four uh bills submitted for referendum to eliminate property tax in
the state of Florida. Uh, are we moving or could we with a little more patience be a little bit more certain that we want to lock into a minimal threshold of 15,000? Uh, we may have to give everybody 1,500
um if all hell breaks loose and a measure gets on the ballot. So, those are my thoughts, but I would yield to other other thinking. I would not support this today because the timing in the face of what staff is indicating
that the legislative intent apparently is to place on the ballot um language for voters to approve. I'm very discomforted by that. But moreover of commissioners um under um six um uh
under the memorandum of understanding section six when under the requirements for the citizen review team are we still appointing the review team? Uh who appoints the review team? And it's been
a long time that I can remember uh anybody talking about the review team. Has that slipped away from the county commission? >> Those come back to you commissioners for ratification every spring prior to the um actual deliberation of the CHSP
series of review teams. >> Okay. >> Yeah. We bring those to you. In terms of the appeal um on the number seven um this is uh you you you see number seven that clause a clause that um
that's just not sufficient uh that's not due process to me and I'm pondering if there is a a quarrel uh disagreement how do applicants um make an appeal because that's a little fuzzy. um to me
and it don't say much. when agencies receive their award letters, um those agencies that have that have been um been funded by by CHSP or through the county and cities for CHSP, they get an opportunity to um to
appeal what the amount that they received and then when and so what we do then do is we put together a smaller group of the CRTs who weren't part of the CRT team that made the um recommend recommended amount
to sit and review and evaluate the process and the appeals of that agency and that program and then then they make a determination and then that recommendation then comes back before the county and city about um about the amount that they should receive as part
of the appeals process. >> Well, I I I'll say this and and yield the floor, Mr. Sherman. Um I think that the appeals process should indicate something about um the process should say um a subject matter the disagreement
is to whom you s submit the appeal. How many days that you have after determination been made? You have 10 days, a month, year. Um something a little bit more definitive than what uh this is really not for me. uh the weight
of what I believe is owed to the public. Um I'd love to see us hash out something a little bit more definitive. And I asked the county attorney uh for the thunder of her thoughts in four um coming weeks that this can be meshed out
and uh we can get something u that really is an appeal process. This this ain't one. We do have um as part of as as you can see commissioner there's also a section that speaks specifically providing the authority of the county
administrator and city manager to establish procedures and we do have a procedures manual that goes into further details about the appeals process for CHSP. >> You do? >> Yes. >> Okay. I like if y'all could provide me a copy. This is Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Commissioner O'Keefe. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Vice Chair, I'm sorry. >> It's all good and thank you. Uh, thank you, Commissioner Cummings, for um your detailed update on it. Um, as a person represents us on the CAC CA um on
the C the CSC, um, I'm going to support this. Um, even though in principle I don't like where we have voters to vote to add new money to provide uh child services and then it ends up being
offset by other things. However, and that's why I pushed back on this two years ago and asked for among others and ask for it to get delayed. However, with the work staff has done with the CSC and the other organizations, I'm more comfortable that there is a path to
still make sure that some key programs have a path to still get CHSP if they don't get CSC. And we are in a challenging reality as Commissioner Proctor mentioned and as we'll we'll hear in many of other agenda
items where um we do need as much homeless line funding which this helps keep uh as possible and we do have um uh progress and information from the CSC that means the family and children services part that are no longer in the
CHSP won't get just dropped as we've continued to make progress. we need to make. So, um, where we are now is a lot better than we were two years ago. Um, and I appreciate staff diligently taking our direction over the past two years to address what our concern was and and
bring back something that's improved. >> Commissioner Miner. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, you know, I I I come from the nonprofit world. I I spent some time as a CEO of Second Harvest and I know how important it is for an agency to get funding for a
program. I mean, your your program and your service delivery lives or dies based on the funding that you get for it. And so, I I I see that concern. I I spoke with someone who uh serves as a representative for many of the agencies that apply to CSC and CHSP and and
there's some concern amongst the agencies about about the change. Um the CSC process for reviewing the applications is different than the CHSP one and so naturally uh there's there's a there's concern about the unknown. Um but in my discussions with um with with
our county administrator about the process um the the the time between when CSC notifies the award applicants and the time when CHSP applications need to be submitted is sufficient to have an agency know whether or not they're going
to get funded and then apply for CHSP later if they don't get funded by CSC. So I I I I think that process is the time frame there I think is helpful to agencies um that that may learn about CSC not funding them for certain
programs. Um the agencies do really like the CHSP process. Uh in I think it's 2008 I served as a volunteer for the CHSP process on one of the teams and so I I'm very familiar with looking at it from that point of view. Uh it's a
really outstanding process as nationally recognized as a model for how communities can fund human services organizations. So I I bring this up because I wanted to make sure that we we knew about the concerns from agencies. It's a new process. People are are um
concerned about about their funding. I do have I've seen Shington and his team in action when it comes to working with agencies. I've been one of those agencies that have come to the meetings that Shington has organized. And so I I I'm confident that that our county staff with Shinston Shington at the lead will
be able to to handle this transition. Um and if there are any issues that that that come up, uh I hope we'll get a chance to hear about them, too. But uh this is a good process. Two years ago, I agree we we needed more time to kind of get through and and work through this, but I'm in a I'm in a good place now. I
think this is the right step for us to take and looking forward to um uh to implementing this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner Cummings, you are recognized and then I I'm going to go after you. >> Okay.
>> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh Miss uh Shankton, I just want to just just follow up with Commissioner Proctor. Um the the establishment of a minimum funding award and then the removal of
the cap. All of that's just part of the CHSP process. Am I correct? >> It is. that is part of it and this is after um many meetings with the agencies and talking about these are part of things that we're always looking at opportunities how we can enhance CHSP um
for agencies as well as providing access to um uh to our agency so that way they can receive from the funding and be effective in the services that they're delivering here in our community. And since this funding comes from the city
and from the county, this particular um recommendation has to be approved by the city or is it has it already been approved or what? >> Yeah, it it'll be approved by the city also. Yeah, they do have to approve. >> And as far as we know, it's part of >> they don't have any any concerns about
>> No. Yeah, they've Yeah, they've been reason pushing it too. Yeah. Well, you know, I' I've spoken, I guess, basically as a member of the of the CSC, but I've always been concerned, as a commissioner, and a member of the CSC
about our agencies, um, nonprofits, those that provide direct services to our children and to our families. And that was clearly one of my concerns when this was first raised a a couple of years ago. I appre
appreciate you. you all studying it and and working to bring something uh to us that I believe will be beneficial to the community that provides those services. But my line of question into you about
exclusions and notice and what have you was specifically designed so that those service providers will have an opportunity if they're not funded by one entity pursuant to an RFP and and that's
pretty much the mode that the Children's Services Council grants funding is through the RFP process so that they're on notice and they have according into your analysis here, they would have enough time to come back and apply to
the CHSB process. Now, [clears throat] I've served on some nonprofit boards that have gone through that process and I've been part of that, you know, for years. And generally, and you correct me if I'm wrong, those entities that that
apply, at first we were applying every year, and then a couple of years ago they changed it to a 2-year funding process. And I think we all appreciated that. But I think it's almost a given if you have been awarded funds one year
through that process and you perform satisfactorily, you will apply the next year to the CHSP through that process. You will always in most instances has been my experience you will always receive funding.
>> Not always, Commissioner. Yeah. Um there are plenty of agencies that we have zero funded um >> that that were funded the year before. >> Correct. Yes, there are they they there's information that we provide to our agency to make sure that there that they're accountable to these p um these
public taxpayer dollars. Um it is not guaranteed. Um CHSP is not guaranteed. It is a competitive grant process. Um it is a deliberative process by made by the citizen review teams that you ratify and approve and appointments to um to make
that evaluation. I think it would be um you know they they do a good job our CRTs in determining whether or not an agency should be funded or if a new agency be should be funded. >> Yeah. And I agree and that's why I'd use the caveat. >> Yeah.
>> In most instances if you have performed and you've done a good job and then you they've got their performance metrics in most instances you will receive additional funding. I've been on a board where the funding was cut. Uh but we still received funding. So, uh those
citizens review teams can be anywhere from 10 to 15 people uh that that come on a designated date to analyze, you know, your uh you know, analyze your program. So I feel certain that giving these entities the opportunity
to have pretty much two bites of a apple. But it's important that those service that service level stays there for all of these entities cuz it could have an adverse ripple effect on our children and on uh our families, the
ability of parents to work. It would just have it would be uh I think a devastating economic effect. So I know that you guys have your pulse on this new innovation. It is something new. It's totally
different from what the entities have been accustomed to. And I hope that we, you know, when we are analyzed and we are looking at whether or not to uh fund certain programs, I hope we take
under consideration, I guess, the newness of this and take under consideration that some of them are not familiar with the CC process. look at those that are familiar with the CSC process and just do a I
guess a fair balance in the interests of our children and our families to make sure these programs receive funding. >> Absolutely. This is I guess we'll call it the pilot year, the the new year. But if if we can
do what we can uh to be consistent at least this the you know the pilot year and then I think they will have more experience on how to be involved in the process from the CSC standpoint. But thank you. Thank you for your hard work. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you, Commissioner Cummings. Commissioner Per, real quick.
>> Chairman, real quick. Commissioner Parker, one one moment. I want to I want to just um I want to ask you the question briefly, then I'll let you jump in. Um, Shankton, I want to break this down just really simply and and correct me if I'm
if I'm wrong. We have our CHSP funding and what we're talking about doing here with staff recommendation is removing a portion, not removing the funding will stay the same, but where that funding will be allocated to will change in hopes that
that funding will be picked up by the Children's Services Council. So what we're doing is CH Children Services Council is providing actually a lot more money than we are providing in the areas $3.5 million for specific
programs that has been funded in the um previously by CHSP. And what we're talking about is realigning those dollars specifically so we can continue the funding of homeless our homeless shelters as part of um CHSP and line item funding.
>> Okay. Where was that original funding for the homeless shelters funded from? >> The federal onetime federal dollars um that the that the board provided to those um those to those shelters that have since will expire at the end of this fiscal year.
>> So we're in layman terms removing children services from our CHSP CHSP program to supplement it with emergency homeless shelters. >> Well, they're not being removed. So those so we're realigning those dollars >> removed from county funding.
>> Yes. So county funding is being realigned those for for specific programs in the areas of after school and some of the ones that Commissioner Cummings mentioned that they're they're putting significant money into those um areas $3.5 million. >> Okay. Thank thank you. And by the way,
thank you for the dialogue between you and Commissioner Cummings. I thought it was uh it was very educational. Just I read this item in depthly, but just hearing the dialogue was very helpful. Um, commissioners, here's where I am on this. I'm in no on this item. And, you know, me personally, I'm not in the
business of removing funding for children's services. I'm not in the business of doing that. I also think it's bad budgeting practices for us. We have one-time ARPA funding. Great. Our staff did a great job using it. Thankful
for their effort. However, it's a one-time funding. What we're doing now is we're supplementing funding with our with our our annual budget to fill a gap on a one-time funding, right? And so I
don't think it's good practices to this is basically like a you know a tax and spend mentality. And in my opinion, if we're going to spend it, I would rather spend it on children's services. That's just me personally. Um and so, you know, it's tough times. I understand where we live. We're we're working with a a
limited budget. Uh, I think it's going to get worse next year. We're going to have hard conversations as a board of when it comes to CHSP and and funding our nonprofits, which nonprofits that we want to fund. And I think CHSP does
great work. I've seen the programs they fund with our boys and uh boys and girls clubs, with the after school programs. I've seen those work firsthand in my district. Now, on the flip side, I think there's still some things that the Children's Services Council is figuring
out. It's a relatively new body. Um, I think they're doing a fine job. Would I like them to see Would I like them Would I like to see them fund more programs? Absolutely. But this came to us, I believe it was 2 years ago. I voted no against it then. I'm going to vote no
against it now. I do not want to cut funding for Children's Services. and we still don't know what the Children's Services Council is going to fund versus what they're not going to fund. If it was up to me, I think the proper fashion
would be, you know, I I don't know that we need in a a big workshop, but I think we should have all the parties in the room. I think we should talk about which program are you going to fund, which program are we going to fund, that way we know what's getting funded when this item comes back to us. Um,
commissioners, that's that's where I am. But as always, you know, uh we can do another round of conversation. Uh Commissioner Proctor, you're in the queue. >> Mr. Chairman, thank you. Um Madame County Attorney would ask, uh staff has uh forewarned us that Florida legislature is considering many property
tax reform proposals. Um but may I ask, is the Children's Services Council's funding uh contingent on property taxes? >> That's correct. My question was are they? >> She said she answered. >> That's correct. Yes,
>> it is contingent property taxes. Correct. So, uh, who among us will have monies to, um, do out, uh, if if one of these proposals, um, is passed on a ballot? And it's not, I don't recall ever
voting, uh, against Commissioner Cummings on this issue. and I lean and follow uh the weight of our heart in these thinking in this area, but I'm I'm not prepared today to commit to a $15,000 minimum
um to someone knowing that the staff has has amber lights flashing that um you know, so I I would love to see some language that had a contingency and I could go um Commissioner Maddox
um as our wordsmith could fashion. Um number two, authorize county administrator to execute a memorandum understanding city of Tallahassee Community Human Services to establish minimum funding awards. My language contingent on property tax vote.
Okay, that that just otherwise why would we uh commit to uh something which we may not have the capacity? Walculla County um on yesterday spent time and they're going through proposals and
listening uh to contingency plans, making plans um uh on the uh projection that they may have cuts in property uh taxes. Um, I don't think that that's a
wayward exercise and I think today that we're putting the the uh horse uh behind the cart and I think that we should wait on this particular vote after the legislative session to see what we've got to cut. Um, uh, in an abundance of u
prudence, um, it's just timing. It's not the substance of the issue. It's the timing and us making a commitment. But I think that we need to give ourselves a bailout clause. We need a bailout clause. We need a trap door to exit uh
in the event that the minimal uh funding that we've grown familiar in our community that it's still there. If we don't put that contingency line there, I I won't be able to support um this measure today. >> Thank you, Commissioner Proctor. Commissioner Moner, you're recognized.
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to clarify a statement that was made. I, you know, it's it was insinuated that a vote in favor of this would be a vote for cutting children's services, and that is inaccurate in my opinion. Um, the Children's Services Council
uh was set up on the ballot in 2020. It passed with 66% of the vote. I was one of the people uh out there advocating for it very very heavily because I believe very strongly in how Lyon County should be doing more for children services because of the CSC being
established. We are now going to be getting about $9 million in fiscal year 26 because of the CSC because of what Lyon County voters voted for. That is more than double what the CHSP children services budget has been at 3.8 million.
What we're doing is we're basically using the CSC money which is now double for children's services than it was before and then we are allocating money for homeless services in in lie of that. So I I I want to clarify that because in my opinion it's a mischaracterization.
This community has doubled down voted 66% to support an expansion of children's services funding in this community and we're doing that. CSC has $9 million for children's services, double what we had before. Because of that, we are making changes in this and
this is the right way to go. We are no longer using um the federal funding that came in through through CO and so this is a a step in the right direction. We talked about it two years ago at length. Uh this is the right step. The CSC will continue. Uh we're going to have more funding for children services than this
community has ever had before. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you, Commissioner Mor. I will respond to that. Um, we are removing children services funding from our county budget. Um, that is factual on this information and we are from the
CHSP funding for children services of our county budget. We are removing that to supplement it for emergency homeless shelters. Uh, staff just echoed that same sentiment. Uh, Commissioner Cummings, you're recognized. >> Thank you. Um, thank you, Mr. Chair.
[clears throat] I just want to um also emphasize that the Children's Services Council uh is concerned about what the legislature uh might pass during the legislative session and our executive direct
director um and staff are already projecting um what reduced funding we could have depending on what the legislature does. So, in response to uh Commissioner
Proctor's concerns, I think that if we modify perhaps option two um rather than indicate establish minimum funding award, eliminate funding caps,
da da da da, but make it contingent upon uh legislative action when the upcoming legislative session. And the reason I I I I mentioned that uh Shington is because I know the Children's Services
Council has an RFP out on the streets. I I believe that the community, our nonprofit service community needs to have notice. I think they need to be on notice. I'm not sure, but can you
address your thoughts about what would happen if we defer this until after the the session has ended as far as service provision for our children uh in the community?
>> Well, since we have an early session um next year, we will have, I believe, ample time to know um what measures that are coming. Um so that way if need be then we can determine um the best course regarding some of the uh changes to
that's being presented as part of theou. Um I did want to find provide some clarification also regarding the um funding of children services by the county through CHSP. Um, we're very very
methodical again based on the the direction that was provided by the board, our conversations with our agency partners. And that's why we it's very very specific when we say that the that where
the realignments would occur is in the area of after school and early learning and also um summer school programs because those are the programs where they're providing $3.5 million. $3.5 million is being provided by children services council um for those specific
programs compared to right now they're receiving approximately a million dollars in CHSP. So that's what we're talking about realigning. However, there will continue to be funded within within CHSP children's services programs for in
school, children's services programs for special needs, children's services programs, specifically commissioners for homelessness. Right now, the line item funding that we provide for um homelessness is primarily
for children and youths. When you think about hope community, CCS, the refuge house, as well as Brhan, which provides which provides uh homelessness to pregnant women. These
are the people that are receiving currently um line item funding as part of as part of um CHSP. And so, yes, there will continue to be funding for children's services through CHSP by the county and city.
So, Mr. Chair, if I can just follow up. So, so it's your Am I okay? >> Of course. >> Um, so it's your opinion then, uh, Shington, that if we that we could defer vote on this particular initiative until
after the session is over and that way we will know whether or not what the legislature has proposed will have an impact. We we'll be more than happy to bring it back to you commissioners if if if if um after the session regarding specifically the um changes to the MOU.
>> So we're talking perhaps in >> March >> in March. Okay. But I'd like I would Mr. Chair, if I may. >> Of course. You have you're recognized. >> There was a substitute motion to um
bring this agenda item back table it and bring it back in March. >> I'll second that. M. >> Okay. We have a substitute motion moved by Commissioner Cummings, seconded by Commissioner Proctor to table this motion and bring it back in when >> just just for clarific clarification. Are you talking about theou because the
proposed realignment that is something we we want to know before that the reason that's before you this evening commissioners is because when it comes to the actual application for CHSP um those would open in um early February
so that would be before session ends but >> push you're recognized >> oh thank you Mr. So you're saying option one we would need to do that now? >> Yes. >> Okay. But option two is what we can table and bring it back in March. >> We can bring that back in March
specifically regarding toou. >> Okay. Well, I'd like to amend Can I amend my substitute motion? >> Of course. You're recommend. >> Yes. Amend my substitute motion to approve option one. Uh but bring back
option two as an agenda item in March. or after the legislative session. >> After the legislative session, right? >> Okay. Uh we have a motion on the floor by Commissioner Cummings, second by Commissioner Proctor. Um I'm just reading option two real quick.
>> Commissioner Cummings, you're you have any discussion on your >> No. Okay. I have I have a point of I have a question for staff um before I get into commissioner discussion. Commissioner Miner, are you in the queue? >> Okay, I'll come to you next. Um
do we have the ability to know what what nonprofits and what children services will remain funded through the children's services council and which ones will not get funded. My issue is we
are releasing this from CHSP to another governing body. Different process. So there could be some programs that we like here at the county like and they do great work. However, we don't know once it goes to the children services council
if it will get approved. Commissioners, what will make me feel a lot better about this item is seeing what what programs are going to continue in a commitment which programs are going to continue to get funded. So, the the Children Services Council is
scheduled to make their decision on funding prior to the opening of the um for for applications for for CHSP. And so, that's why right now the timing all works because they'll make a decision,
it closes early January, their application um opportunity, their grant um application process, and then they'll make a determination late January. um about funding and then by that point and then the application window actually for
CHSP will be for about 6 weeks and so prior to the closure of the CHSP application process we all will know what agencies and programs were funded by the children's services council >> by what date >> 6 weeks
>> within six so right now >> March it's in March in March is when we'll um it when the application window will close for CHSP. >> So we'll know in March which which services will be funded and which ones were not funded.
>> Yes. By the children services council. >> Commissioner Cummings, could you include in your substitute motion for a status report to come back to our board at the March meeting highlighting which programs were funded and which ones were not funded? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Thank you. And um Commissioner
Mon, that that's accepted. I think you process. Perfect. Okay. Commissioner Mon, you're recognized. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I think the whole point about the agenda item was that the CSE application process concludes first. The awards for CSSE
funding are announced first. So, the agencies that applied for CSE funding will know the result of the application. Then they can go ahead and apply for CHSP funds through that application process. So that the the timeline works here and our staff have worked very hard
to make sure that the timeline works. Um two questions motion uh option one only does not um prevent basically allows the realignment to go forward. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. And here's my question to kind of wrap up the discussion of difference agreement between the chairman and I
>> as a result of this G uh agenda item passing and the realignment is funding for children's services for the services themselves to the agencies going to increase because of this. >> I'm sorry. >> If this agenda item is adopted today,
you're going to have most of the funding come from the CSC. >> Correct. >> All right. If this agenda item is adopted, funding going to children services will increase to the agencies. Is that correct? >> Funding for the agencies will increase
priority. Yes. Primarily because we will now have dollars available for funding for our children services through through CHSP specifically in areas of homelessness. >> Gotcha. So yes, but for for children's services. For children's services. >> Correct. >> So you and I are talking about two
different things. You know, the county budget for children's services is decreasing with this agenda item, but the overall result is children services are going to get more funding from CSC and so [clears throat] therefore they're getting more funding overall in the areas that we're talking about. That's
the point I wanted to be very clear about. >> Yeah, Commissioner, thank you for the clarification. My issue particularly is the unknown. It's another governing body, right? So that I feel a lot better about having a status report come back in March saying where is the updated funding because there's programs right
now are great programs for the county and once it goes to the CSC could be funded could not be funded right so I feel better about it coming back to us and potentially having a discussion amongst our board if a good program is cut we have the ability to go and say hey let's talk about it and fund it
>> and I and I agree with you and and I I support the the modification I think it's a smart idea uh those agencies that don't get funded by the CSC will apply to CHSP if they wish just like they did before. So I think we're we're talking to the same point now. >> I like where we're at too, >> Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.
>> Yes, sir. Commissioner O'Keefe. >> Mr. Vice Chair, I'm sorry. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. The so if I understand correctly, one of the concerns is with budget and and property tax revenue uncertainty and legislature
uncertainty, the concern of having minimum awards that are larger and limitation of cap. I want to ask staff those two changes, does that change the overall budget allocation of CHSP? >> If we have min, if we don't make those changes, are we still going to allocate
the same total amount for CHSP? We will bring the same recommendations to you in March commercial orders. >> Okay. So the the other thing is that um whether we have those two administrative rules there or not or changes, we're
still going forward with the same overall budget consideration. And should a a a catastrophic change in revenue happen in in a year or two years, is CHSP funding the only department we're going to have
to make drastic changes to contracts and agreements? >> Go ahead. >> Everything we do is subject to budget. >> Yep. And then if the my my my opposition to the substitute
motion is that I believe in an attempt to clarify uncertainty, we actually extend uncertainty. Staff has worked on this for two years. You're not going to believe you're hearing this from me. Staff's worked on it for two years. It's pretty good. And let him finish I think
let him finish the job. and uh instead of being able to change theou and change these two policies that help lower and reduce red tape and make things smoother um independent of any realignment, let's let them uh let's let them finish the
job and there's got to be another way if after being able to come back to CHP after CSC and coming back to us and still being eligible for CHSP if you're not CSC if someone still falls through the crack and we feel that a community issue is
not being addressed. Is there another option we have to pick up and take a one-off instead of hold up the entire process uh and the entire change? Because I don't want to increase uncertainty for all of our partners that have been working on this for 2 years because of uncertainty of what will
happen in the legislature because if we did that for everything, we wouldn't take a single action. Um so I guess my question to to chair to to audience is >> is there a mechanism if we go forward today uh with your options one and two which
is not the substitute motion >> and something falls through after the backup processes are we able as a board to make an independent decision for a separate budget for a separate issue? >> Mr. Mr. Chairman, if if we're if we're talking about property tax reform, yes,
because it really we wouldn't feel the impacts until the next fiscal year and we could deal with that in the budget process. >> Sorry to clarify, I jumped to another second. >> If a program that doesn't get CHSP, doesn't get CSC, doesn't get CHP again, and we're saying, "Oh, we absolutely
need that." >> Is there a process separate from this where the board can independently bring an agenda item to to give a program some money? Well, not not consistent with your ordinance. There's not. Again, this is you you we sort of closed the back
doors to the CHSP process. And so, you've got that process, but again, I think we're sort of a, you know, it's a it's a little bit of a, you know, problem. Uh, >> may if I may uh interrupt, uh,
this board, we we can change an ordinance if we have to. So that I mean we have an ordinance, right? If there's a if there's a program in my opinion that we want to fund and we're the board of county commissioners, it's a important program, we can vote and fund it. >> I uh so I I'll just leave it at I don't support the substitute motion simply
because I think it's time to let staff move forward with good administrative cleanup that doesn't change the overall budget for everything and lets us move forward with the the process that you've made so people have some certainty. Um thank you. >> Commissioner WS, you are recognized.
Thanks, Mr. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'm willing to go with the will of the board here. I would tend to follow the lead of Commissioner Cummings just because I don't know the minutiae of the process. My understanding is exactly what
Commissioner O'Keefe said. Staff's been working on this for 2 years. Um, I I I think that the biggest step forward is option one in approving the realignment. I think if if some members of the board are more comfortable waiting before they
uh draft anou to see what the budget looks like or to get further information back um I think that's okay. But I think the biggest step here is the realignment. I think that that's very important and I think that we've been doing this for 2 years now. Um I we the
CHSP providers came in and were not happy the first time. They were still not happy the second time and I haven't heard a single thing from any of them over the course of this item coming back. I I think it is it is important to understand that while we're talking about a realignment, we're not talking
about an abandonment of children's items in funding, right? We're talking about shifting where we invest our CHSP funding in children's items. So instead of spending it on after school programs, we're spending it on homelessness for children, creating more beds for
children through the CHSP process. And I think Commissioner Miner's right on point too with the fact that the CSC process will go ahead of the CHSP process. All of this done very uh tactfully by our staff. So I think that we're in the right posture to move to
move the item, particularly option one. and if Commissioner Proctor and Commissioner Cummings are more comfortable uh holding off on option two andou until after the session to see what kind of impacts the legislature is going to have. But like I said, like the county administrator said, that's really not till the next budget cycle that you
would need to adjust those. So by by eliminating or by getting rid of the funding caps or or setting them lower or something like that to create more comfort really is getting ahead of the game because you're you're talking about the next fiscal cycle, not the upcoming fiscal cycle. So, uh, if it was up to
me, as I made the original motion, I'm fine with options one and two and staff recommendations, but if it makes Commissioner Cummings in particularly more comfortable having been the designate to the CSC to I will support her substitute motion. So, that's where I'm at. But ultimately, I think option
one is the big one. We got to really move that today if we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you for the collegiality, Commissioner Welch. Commissioner Proctor, close us out, then we're going to go to a vote. Mr. chairman. Um [clears throat] I think in 2026 going forward, all of
our contracts with uh vendors ought to have some clause that um um contingent on property tax receipts. And um I think that us committing uh not and there's no
reason reason for us to error. we're closest to the fire of Florida's legislative circus uh and what they're proposing to do to all of our counties. We we can't miss it. We we right there in the front row
seat. And I think that um wisdom compels uh us beginning to articulate we may or may not have it. >> We we got on point real quick by Madam Attorney. I I just wanted to reassure the commissioners that statutoily it's
it's in a statute. In all of our contracts, we already have a clause that says that uh the contract is subject to annual appropriation of funding. So hopefully that alleviates your concern, Commissioner Proctor. We already have that sort of a clause cuz if we don't
have the money to budget, that is a basis for us to either terminate or otherwise uh modify any contracts that we have going forward. we already have a provision like that. >> Thank you for the point of information, Madam Attorney. Commissioner Pro. >> Thank Thank you, Madam Attorney. Um that alleviates um stress on my heart um
tonight. There's nothing worse than to overpromise and underdel and so we would not want to be uh that board. So that's excellent. Um I want to ask one additional question um with respect to
option two. Um, I'm not calling Commissioner Cummings, but um, with respect to the city of Tallahassee, the um, Community Human Service Partnership, and um, um, the county administrator, blah,
blah, the point that I I want to cite right here, which there's been some um, contention, the measurement of delivery or the success rates of delivery
are the units with which uh we enumerate uh what services were met. And uh last year, this past summer, uh that was a question with respect to CSC and the accounting uh indexes for blah blah
blah. I want to make sure that uh these three elements here uh and that the measurement Commissioner Cummings for what y'all doing and how y'all measure uh do uh does a a lunch plate count as a
service? Does a dinner plate count as a service? How do you count that? And I I I think that we can clean that up and make it uh squeaky squeaky uh clear that if there's accountability to held to the
CSC about measures and um services delivered that y'all is all on the same page cuz I really don't want to hear that mess no more. I I think that it's a hell of a place to get to the back end and you don't know how what we decided
uh counts as a unit delivered and all of that stuff. So to the extent that we can clean that up on the front end with I would certainly appreciate it because I never ever the duration of my time here would want to see the CSC
call and question and suspect as if um there was, you know, integrity issues. So we can we can crease all that out on the front end. And I'm begging for um an understanding same sheet of music to sing from. Thank you very much, Mr.
>> Thank you, Commissioner Proctor. All right, Commissioners, we are going to call a vote. We have uh a motion by Commissioner Cummings. Um Commissioner Cummings, restate your motion one more time with the amendment, please. >> Yes.
>> My motion was, Mr. chair to accept option one and as it regards option two to have that brought back as an agenda item in March or after legislative session has ended >> with the status report on the funding
>> ab right with that language with the status report on the entities that were accepted uh by the CSC and those that weren't. >> Commissioner Proctor, did you second the motion? Yes, sir. >> All right, commissioners. All those in favor of the substitute motion on the
floor signify by saying I. >> I. >> All opposed. >> Nay. >> Nay. Passes. Commissioner M. Am you a yay or nay? >> Yay. Okay. So, passes. 51 with Commissioner Maddox. Um, >> recuse.
>> Recusing himself. >> Commissioners, great discussion. I appreciate the collegiality and I'm glad we we got to a good point on that item. Next item, number 17. Mr. County Administrator, I'm sorry. Number 18, Mr. County Administrator. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Number 18, commissioners uh seeks the board's
approval to award a contract to Fitch and Associates, the highest rate correspondent to an RFP for consulting service to evaluate alternative models for cost-effective options for fire services in the unincorporated area. As you know, commissioners, in September, the city provided notification of their
intent to terminate the interlocal agreement uh with the county for fire services in the unincorporated area uh at the end of the term uh which expires September 2028. Subsequently, the board authorized uh the competitive solicitation uh of the selection of a
consultant before you tonight uh for your consideration. As you can see in the item, the scope is very robust. I have every confidence that they'll do a fine job and we're recommending options one and two. We have two speakers on this item and we're happy to answer any questions you might have.
>> Thank you, Mr. County Minister. First public speaker, >> Daniel Waters to be followed by Christopher Godwin. >> Had you back? >> Good morning, Mr. Chairman and uh commissioners. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this item today. uh before moving move before moving to
Lyon County over uh with 30 years in the fire service. Uh it's nice now to be on the outside of it, seeing how things operate. I I want to commend the services that you currently have here in Lyon County with the emergency medical services and fire services being provided by city of Tallahassee. Um, I
can save you a lot of money by telling you there's no way you're going to save money by duplicating services by all of the infrastructure, the equipment, the staffing that's required to operate a professional fire rescue service like you have today. There's no way you're
going to save money in any other model than what you have today. Um, I I'm opposed to this option of funding them. Uh, I'm understand uh your contractor. I know their background with it, but the fact of the matter is is you're not going to save money. If there's anything I could encourage the commission to do
is to get back with the city and try to work on amending the relationships so we continue that level of service today because the only way you're going to save money is to affect the level of service. And there's nothing worse than calling 911 to find out that your response time is only getting longer
because of political issues. So again, uh thank you for the opportunity to speak, but uh opposed to this item. Thank you, Mr. Waters. Next speaker. >> Final speaker on this item, Christopher Godwin. >> Mr. Godwin, great to see you. Please take your name and record for the
>> Yeah. Uh, afternoon, commissioners. Christopher Godwin. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm going to read from here to keep on point. Uh, I want to outline the structural problems with the current fire service fee and explain why full recalibration is not only appropriate, it is necessary because
this agenda item calls for evaluating alternative models and fiscal options. I want to touch on seven key points. First, the fee has no relationship to fire risk. The current fire service fee does not correspond to fire risk, call demand, occupancy, or benefit. It is
strictly a property use code and square footage assessment and because of that it produces outcomes that are indefensible. Two verified examples of what could happen is a 10,000q ft quilt shop in
zone 1 would play would pay $3,840 for the fire service fee. A 19,000 square foot bomb facility in zone one would pay $621 for fire service fee. In this model, a
low-risk quilt shop pays three to six times more than a high-risk bomb factory, twice its size. That is the opposite of any standard riskbased model used anywhere in Florida. Second, the human impact is severe. A few days ago
at the property appraisers office, an 88-year-old man was trying to understand the new fire service fee on his bill. He broke down in tears, not out of frustration, but real fear because he couldn't afford the lump sum. Uh he said, "I'm on a fixed income. I don't have anywhere else to cut. I don't know
how I'm going to stay in my home because now it can be auctioned off." This is what a fee is doing to vulnerable residents. A fire service fee funding model should not push seniors to the brink of losing their homes. Another example for residential wos is Enan
Church Road trailer park. It's worth $170,000. Its annual tax, which includes water and waste, is $3,400. Yet, its fire service fee is $4,400, and that's a verified parcel from the
tax collector. It's five single wide trailers at 600 square foot each. It pays thousands more than businesses 10 times its size. So, not only residences, but small businesses are being punished.
Businesses in the unincorporated rated area pay disproportionately more than similar or larger operations in the city. Real examples are bars, restaurants, shops, and service businesses in zone 2 routinely pay 3 to $4,000 annually. Meanwhile, larger and
higher risk industrial buildings in the city pay $600 to $1,100 with the same business model. So, more real examples. 10,000 foot bar in zone 2 pays five times what a 10,000 foot brewery pays in zone 1. Small rural
kitchen in Lakewood Village pays more than double zone one industrial rate. Summer smokehouse at 12,000 ft² pays $3,500 per year while Proof Brewery at $34,000 pays $1,900.
Uh I have packets to give each commissioners with more data uh to go further into detail and would be happy to speak with any of you at any time more on it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for the comments, Mr. Godman.
Commission was just about to recognize Commissioner Miner. So I will recognize uh Commissioner O'Keefe. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh I move option one and two. Thank you. >> So we have a a motion for staff recommendation options one and two moved
by Mr. Vice Chair, seconded by Commissioner Proctor. You have comments. You're recognized. >> Thank you. Um just one question for our staff. Has the firm had the city of Tallahassee for a client
in the recent past or in the long past? >> U Mr. chairman. Yeah. Well, they they've they've had to um they wouldn't have been eligible if they had a a current contractual relationship with uh the city. I just happen to be aware just because I've been around so long that we hired the city and the county both hired
Fitch 20 plus years ago to do an outside independent evaluation of our systems. But um uh but but they do not have um any conflict. >> Excellent. Okay. Thank you. Um, and I'll just say uh the important comment by by the first gentleman. Um, I agree with
you. Uh, there is no realistic world where creating two separate fire departments saves money at the same service. However, what I want to point out is this this item is sort of what we have to do is backup. I
I will just say for myself, my understanding of the posture of this board is that we prefer to be at the negotiating table with the city and prefer to negotiate an extension at the end of this term that allows us to keep doing things and and get somewhere in
the middle because I believe we know that the current shared service structure is right and it's uh it's it's not this board that isn't ready to negotiate and has made offers. And so the only reason we have asked for a
consultant to study what our options were to set something up 3 years from now at the end of the contract is because we have been notified by the city that they are not extending the contract and we have heard nothing back on negotiation. So I am hopeful that between now and then we have a revised
negotiation that we want to participate in now and then. But we can't ignore that the position they have taken is you're on your own in 3 years and we have to get a plan in place as a backup. So I did want to clarify what this item is in my understanding. Thank you. >> Well said, Mr. Vice Chair. Uh well, next
in the queue is Commissioner Miner and Commissioner Proctor. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I agree with Commissioner O'Keefe. I I think if we take a look at what's best for the citizens that live in Lyon County, the best solution is for the city and the county to work together to provide fire services to the entire county. uh
similar to the to the arrangement we currently have. Um and um I I'm supporting the motion on the floor and and I want to thank Mr. Waters for speaking today and his comments. Um I also believe that the cheapest, most cost-effective way is for the city and
the county to work together to provide fire service. Uh if the county goes it alone, it's more expensive. If the city goes alone, it's more expensive. Um, what this report does is it actually gives us a third-party unbiased assessment of our options. And so that's
why I think this is such a great step for us to take because then it's not the county saying it's better. It's not the city saying it's better or not better. It's it's a third party, one of the best consulting firms in the country that does this work providing us with the options. Uh, and um, so I'm going to
vote for the motion on the floor. this is the right stuff for us to take because once this comes back and I think the county administrator if I remember correctly told me this might come back in the late spring early summer uh so that will give us time to go to the city show them what the options are for them
for us uh and working together and we can take an unbiased we'll have a third party unbiased opinion on how to do that um so um I also just want to say very quickly I want to thank our staff for the comprehensiveness of the scope of services in this contract. Uh when I
first started reading it, I was thinking to myself, I hope they include this, this, and this. Every single one of my points is included in here in the scope of services. Uh it's going to be a very good report uh based on what we see in the description of the contract. So, thanks to our staff for working so hard
on it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you, Commissioner Miner. Commissioner Proctor. >> Thank you, Chairman. Um I concur with both my colleagues um who've spoken previously. Um, we have a 2028 deadline. Uh, the city has told us that they're
not going to partner or render uh fire services for a county uh any longer. We got that in writing. We've uh read it in the newspapers. Uh we've seen it uh on television. Um I think that that notice
is significant enough we can take that seriously. And so with that 2028 um uh drop dead deadline with which we will be on our own, uh we either forced uh to beg the city and get down on our
knees and beg or we can stand up and act like grown folk and walk uh and take the responsibility that we have to do in providing for the health, safety, the welfare of um citizens. of the community
uh in the area of um fire protection. I am um well pleased that our staff has gone out and um scored uh a company looking at the resumes of uh who they're bringing uh that there's a lot of
respect there. I am curious um um that this analysis uh takes a look, Madam Attorney, at the potential of what that ACLU lawsuit may mean. Now, um we're talking about fees
versus assessments versus da da da. And I want to make sure that as we're looking at this issue that whatever steps that we've got to take that they would be consistent with the court's um
uh adjudication [snorts] and their pronouncement uh be it in the district out of um if that's prevailing law with Okeella uh and what might come out of the second circuit um that needs to be clear. I just don't think that
this consultant uh should act can act and ignore the reality that uh acco lawsuit about fire services fees altogether. I think another dynamic uh
of concern uh to me is um you know the city uh if this property issue is on the ballot uh the city has u utility and if property taxes are eliminated in Florida
um all of y'all's and all of ours utility is going to likely triple or quadruple city can make their some of that money back. We don't have an instrument to take in uh monies if we don't have uh property uh taxes coming
in. So, city's in a strong stronger position um to go up on all all utilities uh to offset property uh losses uh tax loss. I am hopeful also
that um um I think I heard that this should be completed by the summer that there's a a clear timeline that it gives us um um a startup position to know and
see our way forward. So we need to have clarity sooner hopefully than later. And then um the amount the dollar amount Vince I apologize that um I I it might be right there in my face but could you
give us uh some sense of the overall um cost that this consultant will >> 107 >> almost 110,000 >> 107. >> Okay. I I apologize colleagues that I I have not seen that and I'm sure it's
there and um thank you for 110. All right. Okay. I think that's a good amount um reasonable amount for what we're seeking. Thank you very much. >> Commissioner Walter recognized. [clears throat] >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um agree wholeheartedly
uh with Commissioner Miner and Commissioner O'Keefe from Mr. Walter, the speaker. I I think that um you know, in a perfect world, right, the city would not have put us in this posture. Now I think to say it's political I think is not
fair. I think it's practical. I think that we have been put in this posture for whatever reason by the city and this is obviously the a step in the right direction for due diligence. Um, I posted about the city's decision to to
give notice of cancellation of the contract and and and I I was quoted something along the lines of like hoping that the city would have a revival of responsibility recognizing that it is in the best interest of John Q taxpayer that we work
together, but we have been put in this position because the city arbitrarily decided to raise their rates. We did not agree with that. Found out that we did not have to agree with that and in fact found out that they could
not arbitrarily do that. Um and so there has to be good faith in a process like that. And I don't like being in this position anymore than anybody else does. But we really have not had much of a choice as
a fellow government who was put in this position to sort of take it or leave it. Um, and we have an obligation to represent our constituents and be
fiscally responsible, which is why we're in this posture. Um, and I I wish this report could come back sooner. I wish that we could I wish the city would re-engage with us. As a
reminder, we sent the city a really good faith uh um compromise that was sumearily dismissed quickly. So, I feel like our board has acted in extremely good faith with the
city. I think we all want our fire services to be robust to be um fairly applied and it's to Mr. Godwin's comments. I think we've all read the emails. Those are very good comments,
very good points. Um, and so there are there are still some things with the fire services uh funding mechanisms that need to be straightened out and we have a right [clears throat] to do our diligence to ensure those things
get straightened out because at the end of the day, as the chairman has said multiple times, we represent 100% of the people in our city and 100% of the people in our county. And there's a lot more nuance to it than
to say it's political. It's really not political. I I've said repeatedly I have no problem with our colleagues at the city. But we have been put in this position because we were told you're going to take this bad sandwich
and you're going to eat it. And we said no thank you on behalf of our constituents. We don't want to eat that sandwich. And uh and I I think it it also speaks I mean if you look at the bigger picture and I'm not trying to ramble here but you know the city of
Tallahassee also raised their millage rate to take care of their police officers. We have taken care of our sheriff deputies here without raising [clears throat] our millage rate. So I look at the county as as extremely fiscally responsible in light of all of the con all of the conversation going on
right now in our state about local governments and fiscal responsibility. And I think this is just an illustration of this board and even previous boards over the last 15 years not having raised the millage rate and agreeing every time
to raise the fire services fee on the 5-year cycle when it was requested by the city and the actuaries. And so we have acted in good faith 100% of the time representing 100% of the people in the community. And so, yeah, I would hope that my city colleagues are
listening to this and and would reach out and say, "Hey, let's figure this out." Because at the end of the day, that's what we all want. But we got to take this step. And so, um, I appreciate our speakers coming in and I think they both sort of illustrated the the nature
of sort of we need to figure this out, but we also need to figure this out, right? It can't just be napkin math. We have to figure out how we fund our fire services, how we can fund them consistently, how we can apply that
assessment fairly so that we can get the best service for the best price. And currently, we don't really have a good handle on that in this report will help us see that a little clearly. So, those are my comments. Mr. Chair, thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Immediate Past Chairman.
Commissioner Maddox, you are recognized. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, [clears throat] I don't I don't really see this as politics. I think this is business. Um I don't I don't think anything happened um that I didn't expect to happen from the time they sent
the letter over saying that they wanted to increase by 20 some odd percent. Um as a matter of fact, I I remember during the briefings with the county administrator, um I all but told him exactly how this was going to work
either way. Uh, and in our latest briefings, we we laughed about the fact that I was right. Huh, Mr. County administrator. [laughter] Um, before I go on, I want to take the opportunity to recognize our former mayor Dr. Emman Johnson that's here with us today. Uh,
and my fraternity, [applause] Pastor Johnson. Um, so here's the thing. I can't I I got to wonder if I was the city what I would what I would have done. Let's frame the the the let's
frame this the way it actually went. Um they agreed we all agreed on a fire services rate that was set prior to them knowing what their negotiation was going to be like with the union. Prior to them knowing exactly what the money was going
to cost what it was going to cost them to build. prior to the iOS thing that they had uh come their way. Then they got done with the negotiations with the union and figured out that's a lot higher than than uh what they
previously thought it was going to be. Uh and us being the partners that we are that we are uh and them hearing from some of us how uh what we thought about their negotiations. They then went on to say, "We got to figure out a way to pay for the increase
that we didn't contemplate during uh the negotiations that we had with the county for the fire services fee. And as any good businessman would do, they sent over what they needed, which was extreme to us, but they sent over what they
needed. And in a good faith effort, as the as the uh immediate past chair said, we looked at it and we sent back a negotiation uh negotiated uh a negotiation attempt to them to see if they would agree to what we thought was reasonable to pay.
They said no. Um and decided to go their own way, which is totally in their right. Again, this is business. It's not politics. This is all business. If if it was a private private business, it would work exactly like this has worked out. They said no. And then in the process of them saying no, we were able to figure
out that they could not raise the rate through the work of our county attorney. They cannot raise the rate without our approval. And so we asked them to stick to the contract, which was what any good business businessman would do when they figured out they can do this. Stick to the contract that we got and within our
rate within within the county and you can do whatever you want to, but you we ask you to honor the contract. They looked at that and decided that they're the city and they can increase within the city and they tr they attempted to do that and they came back to us. We said no to that as well. So
in an effort we got what three more years Mr. Mr. Administrator we had three more years left in the contract. What would you do? You got a contract that you can't that can't pay for the services that you're trying to get paid for. What would you do? I I'm I'm
venture to say that this board right here that that I sit on right now that we were in the same position, we would have void we would have voted to end that contract early because it's not a good contract for us. It's not a good contract. So they did that. That's business. That's good business. Now, of
course, what do we do? We say, "Okay, no, we're not going to do that. We're going to honor the contract. So, I'm going to play out." Well, me business being the businessman I would try to be, I know that they're going to cancel the contract. they can't cancel it immediately, which means I got 18 more
months left in the current contract that I can take advantage of the rate that they have now, knowing that if I negotiate right now, I'm going to have to pay a higher rate. So, I'm going to take the 18 months at this current rate for my for my for my citizens at the rate we're at and then I'm going to look
to negotiate renegotiate after those 18 months to get a better rate. The city's doing the same thing. They understand that they don't want to stay at this for 3 years. They'll take them 18 months knowing that we would like for them to
renegotiate with us, a new rate in 18 months. So, they get to the new contract much earlier than they would if they played it out. This is all business. And I think honestly, I think if we're representing the county citizens, well,
I got to say they're kind of representing the city citizens well. I mean, they have a service that we're that we're trying to use of theirs. And quite frankly, they got some costs that they didn't expect. And in like I said, in private
business, if if if whatever store got some costs they didn't expect, you don't think they're going to push down those those price that cost to the to the consumer and the prices that they charge the consumer? Absolutely going to do that every single time, whether it's rent or whatever it is. So, it's not politics. I went through all
that to explain the fact that this is business. This is business between two entities that are government. And we also we always say that that that government is not business. But in some in some instances, especially when you're negotiating stuff like this, we're two businesses. We're two
businesses trying to represent the people who uh who trust us to make the good decisions on their behalf. And so, as we play this out, I don't I don't I don't I I think the city is doing what they need to I think we're doing what we need to do. What I think end up
happening ends up happening with this, I think we both come to the table, we negotiate a new fire services deal that's that's built off of the information that we found out through the study through the v various studies that will be done as a result of the
negotiations that's been going on back and forth. Again, that's good business. And on the back end of that, the the new fire services contract between the city and county will be much tighter and better than any fire services contract we've ever had because both entities
have dug into it and have fixed every issue that might be in that along the way. And so I am I guess I'm pleased with the business, I guess. Um I look forward to to the city. I don't
I fully expect the city to come to the table. I fully expect the city to come to the table once we've got gone through all the negotiations, once all the studies are done. Somebody said it, it's better for us to work together. I fully expect the city to come to the table and I fully expect a good solid fire
services contract to happen between the county and city without us having to consider taking on fire services. That's what I expect. So, as far as that's concerned, I'm going to I'm going to support this item because I think it's good business. Now, the young man uh
have we haven't addressed what you talked about, have we? As far as as far as the changing of the billing, he brought up the issue of changing the building from where it was to the tax bill. Correct, sir? >> Yes. [snorts] When we had that
conversation a ways back and we voted to do that, I voted against it because of exactly what he said. I don't believe that we should have moved it from from where it was to the tax bill because I don't want I didn't want to tie up people's property in um in limbo over
their lack of ability to pay a fire services fee. I don't I don't I didn't want to do that. I I like the word was I'm not sure we madam attorney we're already passed the point Mr. Chair if you don't mind. Of course >> madam turn we already passed the point that we can consider anything for this current
>> year. We've changed it already. Correct. That is correct. Not for this year. >> Not for this year. >> I would I mean I I I [laughter] totally agree. I totally agree with you. I I said it I said it that day. If I don't want it on the tax bill, I kind of like it the way it was. And madam
attorney, is there anything that prevents us from going back? >> The board has the discretion to amend or adopt a new ordinance uh regarding the method of collection. I would um staff recommendation has already been
moved. Correct. >> Yes. Um I would like now would it would it would it require a agreement from the city to receive payment in such way? Madam Attorney, >> it would require
the city to provide the information. Well, it would it would change the exchange of data between the two parties. Uh but assuming that I mean the city would have to agree to collect in the unincorporated area as they have in the
past. I mean I don't know that they would or wouldn't. I would ask for an amendment to the motion to reconsider placing um going back to the to the previous method of collection concerning fire services
uh for unincorporated um residents that are own city utilities. I'll ask for that amendment to the um to the motion for agenda item. Come back to come. >> Is this Germaine because this uh motion is about hiring a consultant, not about
a policy to redo collection. I'm curious. >> Yeah, Commissioner Max, I would prefer if you brought that up during commissioner discussion time or we vote on this item and we can take up that as as another motion on this. Um, we we can
vote on this motion and since this is about fire services, you can you can offer another motion after this motion on the floor since it's not gerine to the one on the floor. >> Make it not here either. Okay. >> All right. Thank you, Mr. Sure. >> All right. I'm I'm I'm going to speak.
Commissioner Cummings is actually in the queue um than Proctor, but before we go, Commissioner Cummings stepped out of the chamber. So, I I I'm going to speak on this item. Um, first and foremost, commissioners, I say this, and I don't say this
lightly, I'm proud to have gone through this process with each and every one of you. Um, I think everyone in this room has brought a different perspective. And what I like about us is even though we've been we've disagreed on some
positions here, um, we haven't let it get personal. And at the end of the day, we're in a posture. We're we're together. Um, with that being said, I'm going to support the motion on the floor. I think this is the right step. I do have a couple different things I want to say related to this. And I also want
to comment on uh Commissioner Maddox's comments. But before I do that, Madame Attorney, um, I have a question, couple questions for you. Has the city responded to your request to provide an asset list of from the five fire stations that would be transferred over
to us? Um they have provided some information but it is currently not complete. >> Okay. And so we're currently right now getting information from them. Are they being cooperative or something? >> It's taking a while to get information.
>> Okay. Um a few things. one, Commissioner Maddox, I disagree with the the posture of of moving the utility bill, the the fire services assessment to the utility bill.
Um, the city just got sued for doing so. There's case law from the fifth DCA that ruled it unconstitutional tax. I think that does not put us in a good posture with a lawsuit. However, I do believe that the fire services
assessment and the way that it is being calculated is continues to be unfair and not equitable. And I think that is the issue here. Um, when you look at our MSTU, what we do for EMS, it's no different
than fire services. The only difference with fire, it's on the property tax bill. The issue with fire services is we have mobile homes right now in Lyon County paying more for fire services assessments than they are their entire
property tax bill. Like that is a problem. I think the method of how we are going of assessing properties needs to change. People are paying uh I met with Mr. Godwin yesterday. He has a property. is
paying $3,900 for fire services and his property taxes combined are $5,500. That does not make sense. And so what I would like to implore, part of this is we need to ask our consultant is is the way that we're currently billing, is it
fair and equitable? Because I would say that it's not. We have 15,000 ft² homes paying the same as fire services as a 500t mobile home. It's not fair and it's not equitable. That is the premise of
it. When it comes to method of collection, I am not comfortable having it build through the utilities. I'm open to other areas. If you want to do independent billing uh method or have staff bring us back other methods, Commissioner Maddox, I'm completely open to that. But we
cannot bill through the utility. There is case law from the fifth DCA that ruled it an unconstitutional tax. The city just got sued for that two weeks ago. So, additionally,
I personally would have never voted if I was a city commissioner to terminate the fire services assessment. I I I I've said over and over again, there's good business and there's bad business. That's not good business. And
uh it's just not. Um, we have made multiple good faith efforts. The city didn't come to us because they had a budget gap and on a 22% increase.
They they came to us and wanted us to increase the rate on unincorporated residents because we have commissioners that sided with the union in their negotiation. That's just plainly what it is. The union pay was a small portion of the
increase that they requested. They raised the rate 22% or tried to. We found that they were underfunding the fire services, meaning county residents were paying more than city residents with less service. Some churches were paying, some were not
paying. They bonded money without our permission. You know, and I said this I said this before and I'll say it again. It it's incompetent. The mayor sent a letter to our board
saying that he takes all his guidance from the fire chief. Well, the fire chief in the last meeting said publicly it was not his recommendation to terminate the fire services agreement with the county. What? He said that publicly. So, it's
clear that the city commission, particularly the mayor, is not taking guidance from the fire chief. This is petty politics and we represent 100% of the people in the city of Tallahassee. It is our duty to go through this motion
to make sure that fire services are being budgeted appropriately. Mr. Immediate past Chairman, you said something great. You said a revival of responsibility and I think there will be a revival of responsibility and it's going to be the 2026 general election because this is
going to be an issue and I've heard from voters. I've heard from neighbors they are not happy with the way the city of Tallahassee has handled this fire services agreement. So I I I'm I'm going to say this over
and over again. I am proud of the position we've taken. If the city wants to come to the table and meet with us and discuss this, I I would be happy to. I've met with the mayor about this multiple times.
So, for the public to to not think that this has not tried to been hashed out in the public behind the scenes, it has. Okay. So, this is not about what's best for the community, for the city, right? We have taken that position clearly.
>> Mhm. So, I I just I want to be very clear. I am open to to to hashing this out. And as a businessman, I know what economies of scale are. I know that this is cheaper for every taxpayer if we work together and have one fire department.
But the fact of the matter is this, it's going to cost city residents more. They have a budget gap right now for this fiscal year because that they have not yet to identify and there's going to be a $15 million budget gap if they don't come to the
deal and do a table come to the table and do a deal with us. [clears throat] So, commissioners, I I I appreciate um where we've gone on this and I'm looking forward to walking with you all and my door remains open. If anybody wants to sit down from the city and have a conversation about fire services, I I
would love to sit here and negotiate and and come to a fair deal that's going to benefit county residents and benefit city residents. With that being said, Commissioner Cummings, you're in the queue. >> Thank Oh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um,
I promise I won't be redundant. I appreciate all the comments from the commissioners and I believe we all share the same uh sentiment that at this point we have to be proactive and we have to exercise due diligence but I just got a
question or two. Um Mr. the county administrator. Uh, I appreciate the good job that you all did in selecting this service provider and I understand you got some history with the service provider and I I really believe we've got the highest caliber consultant that
we could have um we could have engaged but my question is and I appreciate the list the specific list of items that I know you provided to the consultant and some of those uh requires data and um
data collection. And my question is, do you see any issues uh as it relate to perhaps gathering data from the city or in order to have a full report uh would it also involve gathering data from the
city as well? >> You mean like a public information request? I'm having no difficulties. >> I don't anticipate it. >> You don't anticipate that? Yeah, >> because it would be pursuant public information request or just
>> I think a lot of the information is known. A lot of the information we can glean from publicly available information and we know an awful lot about the delivery of service. I think we know just about everything we need to know. There may be some some minor issues, but I'm confident that we can
work together on that. I I'm just concerned and just want to make sure you know of course I accept uh your opinion [clears throat] that we have a thorough you know thorough report not lacking any data to do the to do the analysis for us but I believe that the steps that we're
taking it's important it's necessary I support uh the motion options one and two that's on the floor and um I want to thank staff I thank those that came and spoke to us about this agenda item. And
I think if we had any other choice, uh, we would look to it. But right now, I think at this stage, we're exercising due diligence and we'll just have to see what happens. Uh, when we get the report back. Uh, thank you, Mr. Mr. Vice Chair.
Appreciate it. >> Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Proctor, then let's take this in for a landing. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I wanted to um compliment the um cogent and the passionate speech offered by the chair. Um, commissioners, I've actually heard
one or two uh arguments on one or two items on this desk before. And uh I think that the uh combination of heart and mind uh that Commissioner Cavan uh just displayed was one of the tremendous
uh uh arguments that I've I've noted and I wanted to compliment um the way he brought all of that together. Um, I think that the word business um lifted up by uh Commissioner Maddox uh is the
posture that brings us here and uh the business relation we were um ditched. We were um we were um contract was canceled unilaterally. uh I don't know what terms equals a breach but you know they have the
Trumpian mindset that simply because we refuse to uh allow for the assessment of a 22% increase in the middle of a 5-year contract um that we couldn't find a basis
in the contract that allowed for that kind of um increase um and you know I know that the bully um style of political um [clears throat] um protocol today is
that and we we were bullied and um but there was no basis of which anyone could say that we breached or did not agree to the terms set forth. We did we asked them to agree to the same terms. chairman spoke about the business of
there being a gap in uncertainty and unfunded $15 million. It's the bad business practices of the city for which though we don't articulate it but it compels us taking seriously the moment
to create the business of of fire services. Maybe just maybe it's a business that's not above our heads. Maybe it's a business that we could execute and do better. Maybe it's the business since it includes and we as the
um universal government for all people in the city and in the county. It just makes sense that this would be a universal service uh spearheaded by the county which represents all all the people.
But the city um it it it raised speaking of business when it comes to the city's uh business of uh Tallahassee police department uh and when it comes to the business of
the city's Tallalasi fire department. The fire department as a business entity in part um was left out there for three years trying to negotiate a contract. um they did not get the across the board
5% that other workers of the city family employees receive um the business of handling fire and as um was pointed out and I'm less empathetic because I think the city is hiding behind um I mean its
failure to do those um fire stations which were promised them fire stations were promised and committed did it signed off on uh long before they start determining that something was arai and they needed a 22% increase to build
those fire station. Those fire stations had been committed to the public prior to our entering into the contract. You know, we get that. So, what the city as a business has done for its police department,
they done built the $100 million um station, the business of business for policing. They got a facility that's um hell, we don't know where the price going to end, but that's how they do
business. But the fire department, they can't we ain't going to build those stations. What kind of mess is that? That's why it's the kind of business that they doing that we can't respect them and the people don't respect them because in the business of for the fire
department, I'm sorry, for the police department, they actually went up on taxes. They didn't get nobody's approval, nobody else's consent. Didn't get ours. But for the purpose of their police, they willing to go up on taxes. But for
the purposes of the uh fire department, they're willing to kick it off and y'all go with it. So this business acumen uh is not is not is not u Harvard um business school. It's not Wharton
Business School and it show ain't Howard Business School because in the business of caring for the entire entity of that which comes under your incorporation, you give similar due diligence. You give similar care. You give similar uh
treatment and assurance that all units of the business under your name can succeed. We didn't do that at Howard Business School. This is a hell of a poor model. So, we're out here because the business of a city and looking around at how they do business. Listen, we're talking about business. I like
that metaphor. Um, the business of how to sell a hospital off with nobody's input. Uh, the business of um how do you uh sell a graveyard augmented with a
golf course? Um, do you negotiate and you become the appraiser? you're the chief negotiator and you're also the appraiser and the closer for the deal. That kind of business, give me a break. So, I think that we owe citizens uh the
standard of which we're reaching for and I respect tonight uh all of our efforts and u Commissioner Maddox uh the standards that we're seeking [clears throat] uh to uh provide for the citizens of Leyon County uh are
consistency, a transparency, and we would not disrespect nobody's union. uh we would honor and over the last speaking of business what we have done as a business the last three four
years we've given a 5% across the board to all of our employees that's good business we've given a 4% before the last 3 years that's good business so I'm very pleased with the approach that we're trying to take and uh I don't
think that we have to stoop to the level of uh a business standard that is not up the are and we're trying to raise the bar and uh we're trying to also govern uh with an efficiency and with a respect for all people and we don't have to hold
our head down uh for that. Mr. Chairman, um I'd like to see us get this thing and that we take a little break if you'd afford us one tonight. >> I'll think about it, Commissioner Proctor. I'd like to keep you up here. >> Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. >> All right, commissioners. We'll take this to a vote. I don't know who made who chair.
>> One last thing. Um can okay instead of asking for for what I asked for after I do think you got a point. Um can we can we ask to be included in the study um different methods of collection we can consider at the county?
>> I think there's broad parameters that speak to that. >> Is it going to be in there already? >> Yeah, pretty much we've got the direction to be able to speak to the current model if there are any improvements to the current model including billing >> specifically if there's a way we can take it off of the tax bill. That's
>> it's a it's it's again I think there are legal arguments that may be outside their >> purview on to follow up on that. I I know I did some research. This was a couple months ago before we I'm going to say this comment real quick. I I I like where Commissioner
Maddox's head head is on this. Some communities have a third party billing where they get invoiced separately for the fire services and then they just pay it separate. It's not tied to the property tax bill. And so, um, Commissioner Maddox, I agree with you. I'm open to other suggestions. So, if we
can include that as part of the study just to bring us back anything related to the fire services fee, how, you know, how it's being built, how things are being assessed, Mr. County Administrator, you're saying that's already part of the study. >> It is. We And we can do that. We can make sure that that's included. >> Okay. Commissioner Maddox, are you okay with that?
>> Yes, sir. >> Okay, cool. >> As the second, do I accept that? [laughter] >> Awesome. All right. All those in favor of the motion on the floor, who who made the motion? >> Vice Chair. >> Vice Chair O'Keefe. Seconded by Commissioner Proctor. All those in favor say I.
>> I. >> I. All opposed. Nay. Passes unanimously. All right, commissioners. We're going to break till 6:00 and we'll come back with a public hearing. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music]