moving to their seats. >> If everyone would begin moving to the table, we're going to start in about 30 seconds. I'm on a tight ship here. Good morning. Good to see you. See, >> I don't think we quite have a quorum
here yet. If everybody please be seated, we can start the meeting. which he said he would be. This is where we supposed to be. >> Yeah. >> I think Daryl's going under control
vibes on that. Thank you. Thanks, sweetheart. All right. Good morning everybody. So glad you're back. We have u this meeting and one more. So we have a lot of business to conduct today. Uh to that end uh I think all of you got a note
about extending these meetings uh if necessary by another hour until 2:30 this afternoon. And I uh wonder if I could hear a motion to make that official. >> So a motion and seconded. Second, second. >> I think we one, two, three, four, five,
six. >> Oh, we don't have a quorum. We need one more person here. >> Oh. Oh, Dr. Robinson's here. I think she's out of the room. >> Emergency call. She'll be over. >> All right, we'll hang on. We'll hang on to that for a second then. Sorry.
Thought I counted 11 and Oh, all right. Okay, we'll All right, that sounds great. If we can do this without a vote, we can public comment. We have uh >> public comment doesn't require a vote, so we can go ahead and get the >> We can go ahead with that. These are in
order. That's right. Okay. The first person uh we have is Tiffany Hill on agenda item four. Tiffany, just state your name and address for the record. You have three minutes. Thank you. >> Yeah, you know our dad.
>> Good morning, chair and members of um the citizens charter review committee. My name is Tiffany Hill. I reside at 1401 Lola Drive, Tallahassee, Florida. I am a resident, a native resident of
Tallahassee. And I'm here today as a resident. And I also want to disclose for transparency that I'm a candidate for Tallahassee City Commission, seat five. I'm speaking in support of option two, the proposed charter amendment um
establishing an affordable housing trust farm um fund. Sorry. Housing is regional. People's lives um don't follow jurisdictions lines. Wherever families can afford to live affects community
pattern um commuting patterns, workforce stability, school continuity, and the overall health of our community, city, county, and um just overall together. What I appreciate about option two is
that it's balanced approach. It establish a continuing trust farm fund in the charter while preserving flexibility for the county commission to direct funding sources through annual budget processes. It's not rigid. It's
practical. Importantly, option two explicitly allows municipalities to participate voluntarily. That matters. It creates a clear pathway for city county collaboration. so we can align priorities, leverage
other um public and private dollars, focus resources where they have the greatest impact. If I'm elected, I intend to be a strong advocate for a partnership. Um because we will not solve housing affordabilities by working
in silos. We need to work together. Um, I respectfully urge the committee to recommend option two just as a middle pathway. Um, and thank you for your support and time. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
We do have a quorum here now, I believe. And so, uh, just interrupt public comment for a second. Uh I have a motion and second to extend our meeting by until 2:30 today and also for our next meeting, our final one, uh if necessary.
Um I just need a simple majority vote. All in favor of possible extension say I. >> I >> and oppose. No. Thank you. All right. >> Um on our public comment, pardon me.
Well, we can go ahead with it. Let's um All right. Yeah, we do have consent agenda. Sorry. Consent agenda. Do I hear a motion to approve the consent agenda? Bill >> moved. Motion made and seconded. All in favor say I. I. Oppose. Nay. Thank you. All
right. Now we got the business of the day started. Um Peter Bine public comment on um item number one. My name is Peter Butscene. I reside at 2358 Carefree Cove. I wish to speak in
favor of a independent office of inspector general. Uh thankfully Leyon County's government has been free from scandal. I wish that I could say the same about the city of Tallahassee. In 2014, I was part of a small group that
successfully amended the city charter to create an independent ethics board and reform the city's deficient ethics ordinances. At the time, we never accused the city of corruption, although within less than 5 years, a commissioner pleaded guilty to bribery. The staff
analysis before you today suggests that an independent office of inspector general may be unnecessary because its responsibilities are already fulfilled by existing staff. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, as Benjamin
Franklin also once advised, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. To our knowledge, there may be nothing broke, just as we were unaware of corruption when we proposed the city's charter amendment. But that doesn't guarantee that our county's future will
be scandal-free. The question is not how many nefarious perpetrators are caught, but how many nefarious deeds are prevented. An initial budget of under $1 million for an office of inspector general, roughly
just 115th of 1% of the total county budget, seems a small price to pay for deferring corruption that could be far more expensive. Even more important would be the boost to public trust. Moreover, existing safeguards are
insufficient. This lesson comes from my own work with common cause beginning with the passage of Florida's sunshine amendment in 1976. After that, I helped uh shape chapter 112 which implements the sunshine amendment and based on my experience
navigating legislative push back. Florida's ethics statute, especially its enforcement powers, are both feeble and fragile. The most recent example is last year's pass passage of Senate Bill 7014, which effectively eviscerates
effective enforcement of Florida's ethics code by requiring that complaintants have personal knowledge of alleged corruption. Don't take my word for it. The late Sandy Dalenberg, whose illustrious career includes charter membership on the Florida Ethics Commission, has
decrieded Chapter 112's faults, especially the commission's lack of effective tools for enforcement. Moreover, according to the Florida Inspector's General Office, seven counties have created offices of Inspector General, acknowledging the
current law's weaknesses. Arguably, as many as 11 counties have established such offices, and several additional local governments have passed ethics ordinances that exceed Florida statute. So, in conclusion, the important work
against corruption, malfeasants, non-feasants, and conflicts of interest deserve a truly independent office of inspector general armed with all the tools recommended by the Association of Inspectors General. Thank you. and thank
you for your service. >> Thank you very much. Uh, next up is uh Ernie Payne. >> Item one. Thank you. >> Hello, my name is Ernie Payne from 2006
East Indian Head Drive in Tallahassee. I want to reiterate something I said when I first introduced the proposal for the Office of Inspector General last November. This is not intended as a remedy for current problems, but to provide a
platform to prevent future problems. Many members of this committee have pointed out that an important purpose of the charter is to announce to the community the priorities of county government. Establishing the infrastructure for an independent office of inspector general
will demonstrate that transparent, ethical, and well-run government is a top priority. Many of you have expressed a concern about the potential cost of creating a new office within county government. Office of Inspector General and Office
for Food Security or any of the other recommendations being proposed. But it's also been pointed out that the budget follows the charter. This committee is not charged with setting the budget. If this proposal makes it to the ballot, and if it
passes, elected officials assisted by staff will annually align the funding with the expressed priorities of the community. Think back to the climate at the city 10 years ago and the rumors rumors of corruption that were circulating with
just cause as it turned out. If there had been a fully empowered ethics office or an office of inspector general within city government at that time, Tallahassee might have avoided the embarrassment caused by the activities of Scott Maddox and others.
These embarrassments can have long-term financial consequences. A reputation for corruption can lead to a reduction in bond rating or to businesses choosing not to relocate to the community, undermining all efforts for economic expansion.
If you consider the alternative, Leyon County can't afford not to establish reliable independent government oversight. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Payne. Our last speaker uh at this moment is Ben Wilcox. You have three minutes.
Please name and address for the record. Good morning everybody. I'm Ben Wilcox, 1719 Old Fort Drive. Um um as I said, as as I said, I'm Ben Wilcox. I'm also a member of the group
Citizens for Ethics Reform. I'm here today in support of agenda item one, which proposes a charter amendment to establish an independent inspector general for Lyon County. As pointed out in your staff analysis, inspector
generals exist across every level of government for detecting, investigating, and preventing matters of fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement,
and misconduct within government organizations. The key to having an effective inspector general is building in place independence for the office.
The citizens of Lyon County deserve to have their voices heard on this issue. And I believe if if you choose to place this before the county commission for placement on the ballot, I believe this
charter amendment would pass. Sunshine amendment which uh passed in 1976 passed by 79% of the vote. Amendment 12, which was placed on the
ballot by the 2018 Constitution Revision Commission, also passed by almost 79% of the vote. A recent U City of Tallahassee charter amendment
that uh spoke to the independence of the city of Tallahassy's inspector general passed by 65% of vote. Um, that's why creating an independent inspector general for Leyon County
should go before voters. anti-corruption measures are not popular with sitting government officials and and that's why we need to go to the people to establish this independent inspector general
office. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Wilcox. Is there anyone else in the audience that wishes to speak at this time? All right. Okay. Well, uh, with that, we're going to move ahead to general business. And that, um, takes us right into item one,
which is considerating considering the establishment of an office of Inspector General in our Leyon County Charter. And Nikki, I think you're going to take on this one. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Good morning, committee members. Uh, the first item on your agenda today is for
the consideration of establishing an inspector, Office of Inspector General. As you'll recall, uh, the committee previously received a citizen proposal from Mr. Ernie Payne that lays out a number of ideas and considerations for creating an OIG. But before we get into
what an OIG might look like, it helps to start with a few basic questions like what exactly does an OIG do? Uh, what do I look like in other charter counties? And how would this align or differ from Lyon County's current structure?
So what is an OIG? In general, OIG's exist at all levels of government to help detect, investigate, and prevent fraud, abuse, waste, mismanagement, and misconduct. Your materials provide a detailed overview of OIGs at the federal
and state level, as well as the four charter counties that have established independent OIGs, Miami Dade, Broward, Jacksonville, Duvall, and Palm Beach. In the analysis, we compared the structure and functions of each OIG. And
at a high level, the functions generally fall into a few few buckets. The first receiving and investigating complaints, conducting financial audits, and providing contract oversight. The jurisdictional oversight varies
across each OIG though with three having some level of oversight over external entities like cities or constitutional offices while Miami date is the only one that is limited to the county government itself. In most cases I focus on the
misuse of public resources and misconduct which does not include ensuring compliance with local ethics laws. Broward County is the only exception as the only OIG that has designated authority for ethics oversight.
Also, if and when wrong uh it's been determined that wrongdoing has occurred, each of these OIGs refer matters to the appropriate enforcement entity who may or may not come to the same conclusion and who may or may not take enforcement action. And just to give a sense of
scale, based on 2024 self-reported outcomes, about 87% of complaints received across the OIGs required no action or were referred elsewhere. It's also important to note that these offices are not small with an average
annual budget at around $4.5 million and staffing ranging from 12 to 42 full-time employees. Now, all that said, these counties are very different from Lyon County. So the next key question is how would this align or differ from Lyon County's
current structure? For starters, many of the functions carried out by county OIGs like auditing and financial oversight are already provided through the clerk as required by the state constitution. While having these functions provided by an independently elected clerk is
oversight in itself, the Lean County Charter goes even further by requiring an independent audit committee with a specific charge of ensuring that ensuring the independence of these auditing functions. Other functions commonly associated with
OIG's also already exist within our governing structure, including designated mechanisms for reporting and investigating complaints, multi-level contract and procurement oversight and internal efforts focused not just on preventing the misuse of funds, but also
driving employeeled cost savings and avoidances, which result in millions in savings for taxpayers year after year. Again, this is just a highle overview of an extensive analysis with much more detail available in your materials. Uh, but of course, we're here if you have
any questions. And at this point, um, I would like to hand it over to the county attorney to provide some clarification regarding our ethics laws and enforcement. >> Thank you, Nikki. Thank you. >> Thank you. Good morning. Uh, so if you will look at your agenda item, I want to
provide some additional information and some clarification. uh in the item just to make sure it's completely clear what is currently in place and who has authority over what. So on page seven of your agenda item
there are a couple of bullets and I'll give you a minute to flip there. >> Seven of the packet. >> No, not of the packet. >> It's the item itself. >> What page is that? >> Seven. Oh, page 16, sorry,
>> of the packet. So, the top bullet starts with implementation and resources. The the second kind of bullet has complaints and enforcement. Okay. So, if you look at like halfway down, it says all ethics
matters are administered separately through the Florida Commission on Ethics. and then the sentence continues. That is true, but only when a complaint is made to the commission on ethics under part 112 of the Florida statutes. So, I wanted to make clear that is not
the process when a complaint is made to the county under the county's code of ethics. Okay? So, just want to make sure everyone's clear about that. So then going back up to the first sentence under that paragraph which states the county's code of ethics establishes
procedures for complaints and investigation of alleged violations. That is correct. What did not make it into the agenda item inadvertently is references to the actual code where that is provided. So there in our code of ethics there are three divisions. The
first one is kind of general. The second one actually includes the standards of conduct and then the third deals with lobbyist regulations. Okay. So for our purposes today, I think what people are generally focused on uh for purposes of this item is divisions one and two. Uh
there's a section, it's 2-653 in division one of the code of ethics that addresses investigations and prosecution of alleged violations of the standards of conduct. Um and it provides
generally that unless it's workplace unless the allegation is workplace harassment and there's a separate provision of the code of ethics uh that governs the process for that that uh the method to report that is to in writing
to the county attorney. Uh and then that provision further provides that um investigation and prosecution is consistent with law. Okay. So there's general statement in there about that. In terms of penalties, penalties are also addressed in the code uh for
violations of the standards of conduct and that is in a different section. It's section 2-654 and it basically references the default penalty for a violation of an ordinance which is consistent with Florida statute
but also consistent with uh section 1-9 of the Leon County Code of Laws which uh pro provides that those are prosecuted in the manner of a misdemeanor. So they're not a misdemeanor but that's how they're prosecuted and that uh if found
guilty or have committed the alleged misconduct, then you can be fined up to $500. Uh you can end up up to 60 days in jail or both. Okay? So, I just wanted to provide that additional detail because again, that
was inadvertently not included in the agenda item, but I wanted you to have that factual information about the code currently provides. Happy to answer any questions you have about that. Thank you. And just as a if it's helpful additional context, the reason um why we elevate
the commission on ethics is that serves as an independent entity for ethics enforcement. But recognizing that Leyon County's code of ethics goes beyond state law states uh the state's code of ethics itself. Um Chassis is providing
clarification um for when those complaints are provided to the county and pertain to the county's code specifically. All right. Um, do we have some discussion on this item number one? >> Okay, Miss Edwards,
>> you're up. >> Good morning. >> I'm sorry. Thank you. >> Excuse me. >> Um, just a question for um, county attorney or whomever. Is there a provision in the investigation process for an independent external investigator
or are the investigations done by the county attorney's office? >> Yeah, certainly. >> Um there's only one provision in the code that provides for an external independent investig an investigation by
an independent body or entity. That is when there is an allegation of workplace harassment against a county commissioner and that is to ensure that in those instances there um is not any undue
influence or pressure uh and instead um I think it's happened once in the past not while I've been here um but uh there is a a process in place in the code in that particular instance um any other
investig igation it's typically going to depend on what the allegation is. So it's reported if it's if it's a violation of standards of conduct which again is limited just to the ethics provisions and there are many other Miss Edwards as you know types of potential
misconduct above and beyond that. So um if it falls within that it's reported to me otherwise many times it could be a whistleblower which um is reported to any local appropriate official which case law indicates could be could be me
could be the county administrator could be the head of HR. So um most of the allegations of misconduct at the county are investigated by the human resources office currently at the county.
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Smith, you had a question. I just comment. >> Can you just walk through an example of a financial some somebody saw some financial mishandlings how that would happen if a citizen reported that? Maybe just walk through the process if I who
would you report it to first and then what would happen? >> Okay. So, um there are any number of different mechanisms. Um they >> they get dummy proof. >> Wow. So, I I'll tell you like hypothetically the different routes it could take and who might investigate it.
Um, so if it's um something financial related, it could be that they report it to the clerk's broad waste and abuse hotline because the clerk and court and comproller has her own um broadwast and abuse hotline and they would investigate
that. in um they have their own auditor general um who would uh have the expertise and the background to determine whether there's been some sort of misconduct like that. Um they could also contact uh the county's broad and
abuse complaint hotline. Um the uh office of human resources uh typically investigates those. Uh, and I'm only aware of one uh, complaint. It was not financial in nature to the fraud, waste,
and abuse hotline since I've been with the county. Uh, and in that case, um, office of human resources, uh, performed basically the function of what an inspector general would do. Um, interviewed people, uh, reviewed, um,
the provisions that applied in relation to the type of complaint that was or the alleged misconduct that was alleged. um did all the things and then ultimately issued a report which typically is what an office of inspector general does
after an investigation is issue uh a report with findings whether they're founded not founded any recommendations they make that sort of thing. Um, so that's another way. Uh, if they were to use some other mechanism and, uh, report
that to the county attorney's office, we would communicate that to the office of human resources since they typically investigate those sorts of activities. If it were financial in nature, I'm confident that human resources would have to engage with potentially the
area, the office or department to have committed the misconduct. um office of management and budget but also the clerk's office since they perform the current auditing function. They would have to look at the entire process. >> And what would happen if so-called
person that filed the complaint didn't believe the report or thought there was more fraud? Is there a way to appeal it or how would that work? >> Yeah. So, uh yes, in fact, uh they can make a complaint to law enforcement in the state attorney's office and they I mean fraud is a crime. So even in
instances where there's a a finding of fraud, uh there's no authority of an office of inspector general to do anything about that potential crime, criminal activity. There would if it was uh conducted on the part of um a county
employee, then there would of course be disciplinary action that the county could take, but that's civil in nature or really employment in nature. Um if it was some sort of contractor issue then we would have mechanisms under whatever our contract is with the contractor to address that. Uh but if it's fraud which
is again is a crime that would have to be referred over and in fact inspectors general sometimes do refer alleged criminal misconduct like fraud to either FDLE or the other law enforcement entity with jurisdiction like the sheriff's
office or TPD. >> Thank you. U Mr. Lewis had a question or comment. >> Is there a tally of all of the complaints that come before any county body over the course of a year?
>> I'm sorry, what was the question? Can you repeat? Aside from the cases you talked about, is there a totality of cases that come before all the county entities on an annual basis that we
could see data that says 30 cases, 10 cases, two cases? >> Are you talking about throughout the state or just Leon County? Leon County. >> And when you say all the offices, you're just mean Leyon County government, right? You're not talking about constitutional officers. Okay. Government. I
>> I would let Niki No, I don't have that on hand. Um, but as Chasse mentioned and she explained this to me earlier in the week as well, it's been close to none that have been brought to your attention. There
are typical um like employment related complaints and things like that that are handled in the normal course under the personal policies and procedures of the county. But if you're talking about anything alleging waste, fraud, or abuse, there's been one and that's been
in the entire six years I've been with the county. It was made last year and might have been 2024 toward the end actually and it was um resolved or um the report was issued in 2025. So I can
tell you in terms of any allegation of waste, fraud or abuse last year, there was one. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hurley. >> Um, good morning, y'all. Uh, just an inquiry about present day county
government. Um, y'all know I'm a city person, so I I don't understand the county government quite as well. The city uh through the audit office um for things that are not necessarily unethical per se, they're just sort of
bad practices. Well, like so for example, um control procedures around pettic cache for star metro change boxes, right? At some point change gets taken from inside
a bus and gets put somewhere else. Um do you all have at the county what can you walk me through that process? >> Give it a shot. Good morning everyone. Yes, we have an independent audit that is performed I think Chasse referenced
this through the clerk of the court's office uh every year uh very comprehensive and it goes right down to petty cashache and that sort of thing and and looks at internal controls and the sufficiency of internal controls and all the way up to much higher level
issues spending authority for people and again very exhaustive um builds on you know yeartoear you you they generally um again tend to deal with uh again as you mentioned internal controls issues. Um but very standard report comes to the
board of county commissioners every year. We put it on the agenda. We talk about it. We're required to have a a correction plan uh for each one of the findings. Um and um and then have a a close out. We have a close out in terms of how each one of those were addressed.
And the clerk brings that report back to show how each of the deficiencies um if there were any cited were addressed. Thank you. Um and I don't even know if the current proposal would even address this, but um that's an annual report,
right? Um and it I recognize as you point out that they have findings and some of those findings I'm sure are multi- pages and everything. Um, but they it doesn't sound to me like at present day you all have uh like the city has it where it's more like audit number 17 for this year and it's just
focused on one issue and a lot of times to your point they'll do follow-ups from previous years and that kind of thing. >> We do we have an overall one but also each year the audit committee comes up with a plan of action where they also identify particular work units on sort of a rotating basis that they'll go in and perform and in depth they'll get all
the way down to desk audits and that sort of thing. So it depends on the what the annual audit plan sort of has up for the the for the current year and they again that's an annual thing um depending on how many units they have the capacity to take on in any division
any individual year. >> And last question um and so to what is your perception on uh how much this amendment at all uh has a kind of jurisdictional issue or or there's no overlap at all? Yeah, I'm I'm not sure that may need a little more on that. I
mean, >> with the city, you mean or would >> would this at at all uh impede upon that work? Would it is there any auditing function of of controls or is it I guess I'm just trying to separate the idea of auditing and then ethics complaints? >> Sure. Yeah. And we tried to do this the
same in the item given that there are many different entities that perform these different functions just to talk about to the extent to which uh those functions are already provided for. And so you heard and you saw in the analysis how you have the Florida Commission on Ethics, independent body obviously that
can bring forward uh issues, investigate, find probable cause on issues um for all appointed and elected officials and in state and local government. Um uh and and again can levy uh penalties up to and including you know recommendations for removal from
office etc. Um uh and then of course we have our internal u uh ethics policy which we talked a little bit about today which also deals uh with ethics. And then of course you have all of your auditing function which and we're a little um you know different in in the
county in that the the clerk of the court is independent and does have that audit function um uh and is the official um legal custodian of funds for the county as well. So there are a lot of layers in place. Again, we just wanted to point all those out so that you had
all the information you needed to to to evaluate whether this was something that um was necessary for Leyon County. >> Okay. Thank you, Vance. Good. Uh Miss Alice, >> thank you. So, if somebody were to make
a complaint under the county's code of ethics, uh once that and there was an investigation, once that investigation concluded, would those materials be subject to chapter 119? And I'm sure you're referring to the um
current exemption that applies to records of inspectors general. Um since yes, because there is currently no that exemption since we do not have an inspector general that performs that investigative function. They would they
would be subject to public records and then only would be redacted for any other portions would be redacted for any other applicable >> personal identif >> personal identifying information if they're eligible for that and that sort of thing. But yeah, they would otherwise be disclosed. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, a member of the public could scrutinize the investigation. Yes. >> Once it's closed. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Once it's closed. >> Well, arguably even during it. >> Even during? >> Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Smith.
>> How would this be paid for? >> It would be subject to budgeted. I mean, if if there was um a charter amendment which went to the ballot and and was passed, then it would be subject to to the county commission budgeting that.
And of course, again, and you see here the the the range of different offices in different jurisdictions. um the population of which I think you know drives the number to a large extent of of those offices. But as you could tell some of the offices are are very
significant. They have a lot of employees. They have a large annual budget and that sort of thing. We could just make an assumption at this point about what that would be for Leyon County. But there is no dedicated funding source for that. You'd have to pay for it out of general revenue.
And then just by my little knowledge, it seems like there's some there would be some overlap in what is currently offered, what is currently had or used now versus a new office? >> Yeah, that is a good question. What is I
mean I'd like to weigh in on that too. What is the effect of what's going on currently through the code of ethics? And will some of that be eliminated completely or will you have sidebyside operations? Well, currently it's Yeah, currently that those functions are provided for by
existing staff. So, staff that are doing other things related to their jobs. County attorney's office, they don't do much, but they uh they but they do have no no, they do a whole lot and but they uh this is in addition to to all that the county attorney does, which is very
significant. And um uh again, same same with HR. they these employees have have their existing jobs, but they sort of this is part of their their existing functions. So, yeah, this an OIG's office would be in addition to to any of that. You'd have
to, you know, budget for that um separately, >> but right now there's not enough full-time work for a person to only do this. I don't have an opinion on that, but I will say in terms of the clerk's duties and responsibilities, there would there
would be and would continue to be overlap because the clerk and comprollers authority is constitutional and it is in Florida statute. So, so at least in the audit context, there would potentially be some overlap. I imagine
they would probably maybe coordinate. I don't know how that would really work, but in terms of jurisdiction, uh the IG's office and the clerk's office would continue to have uh authority over anything related to audit functions and investigations of any
potential issues and that sort of thing. Um so that is something that could not be changed. The only thing I'll say is that the charter does currently require a code of ethics in
the code. Um, and so, uh, this would in the code of ethics side, it would really be if you had an IG doing what is currently done, which is investigating whether there has been an a violation of whatever the standards of conduct are
that exist in the code of laws. >> All right, Mr. Pitman, you have a question. >> I'm playing the part of Daryl Jones today. That's what I saw. Where's >> D? I don't have the voice, but I don't have the voice.
>> But I can try. >> Bring it on. >> I'm Daryl Jones. Um Oh, sorry. This is Daryl Jones. Um uh question, line of question, the same line as William Smith. Um I am
interested in the fiscal because the areas that I see that have adopted this independent route um are very deep pockets, huge huge governments. Um Mr. Administrator, you mentioned that it
would be a guess to estimate the fiscal on this. So, what's your best guess even being conservative and and uh is this something that we would have to pass on to uh our taxpayers in
order to to increase our general revenue? >> Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, I really would hate to speculate um at this point. You know, I do the offices um you know, that I've looked at and certainly I'm aware of the offices in other counties that exist and this issue
has come up in the past. has come up with other in other charter reviews that we've looked at. And so there's always an element of sticker shock, you know, associated with with some of these um departments. Um but again, I'd have to just look at some of these counties and
sort of do just sort of a proportionate, you know, analysis to the size of Lyon County to get there. But we really wouldn't know in particular how many staff people we would need to to support this function. Uh those were all things that um that we would have to um
determine again if if it was put in place and and what the role and and scope of the of the department would be. Um, so again, it it it would be I would I would hate to to to put my thumb on the scale too much on on this for your consideration, but the numbers in other
places are the only things we have to go by, which are pretty significant. >> And if it's if it's helpful, city of Jacksonville, Duval County, um, as an example, in their charter, uh, they require their office to be funded at a minimum of $400,000 a year. That was
their starting point, but with discretion for the board to increase it if they need to. While that minimum is set, their most recent budget that was adopted totaled over $1.5 million. Put that in perspective.
>> No, no, that's helpful. Thank you. Thank >> Right. Miss Edwards, you had a question. >> Follow up to the last couple of questions. And this is even though I know Mr. long provided us with a very detailed and clear outline of what our
duties were. But in our deliberations and in our considerations of passing or or agreeing to particular amendments, what responsibility do we have to consider the fiscal impact? And secondly, uh, whatever we agree to be
and and the commission agrees to be placed on the ballot is fiscal information provided in the ballot language for the public to see what the cost would be if this is passed.
>> For the first one, Madam Chair, for the first one, again, you have broad purview. Again, I mean, I hate to, but you really do. I mean it there there could be charter committees convened that have a real focus on the fiscal um you know implications of these things.
There could be others that say hey that's not our that we don't have to worry about that. Let the let the commission ultimately you know worry about funding and that sort of thing. So it really does but but this group has broad latitude to determine again you know how you weigh in on on those
issues. So there's that. Then there's the issue of whether to include it or not include it in the ballot language. Let me defer to Chassity on that. >> Go ahead. >> Um there's actually a Department of State Division of Elections opinion on this fairly recently
2020 maybe 2022 and it was I think for Hillsboro County. It was for a county about a charter amendment and the question was whether they could in include a fiscal impact information and uh the opinion of the division of elections was no because under the
statute if it's a state amendment there's an express requirement to include a fiscal impact statement. There is no such language in the beginning of that statute and because it was in one place and not in the other the division
of said you cannot include fiscal impact statements in like charter amendment information. >> Okay. Thank you. Oh, Mr. Dr. Kesler had a question. >> No. >> Oh, so comments. >> Comments. Yes. I
>> Yeah, certainly. Okay. Yeah, >> you're on. So um I'll start with the physical impact because that seemed to get some attention of people and um so coming forward with this item and um with
discussions of the people that have been involved since the 70s with ethics and in this area. Uh the best
estimate that we could bring forward was that it was certainly going to be under a million dollars, which is still serious money. Um, and it also was clearly defined that
this physical impact really, in my opinion at least, doesn't doesn't deserve to be on the ballot because that becomes, if passed, a function of
of the county government and they can determine to set the funding at whatever level they choose. So that didn't become a problem for us bringing this thing forward. And I'll
come back to that if necessary. But there are real there are real pluses. their real positives to put in place an office of the um inspector general and and they begin
with um eliminating they begin with independence. Unless you have an entity that is truly independent and in this process that we're putting
forward the independence arises from they're not the board that's proposed to hire choose the inspector uh general
is not owing in any way to being paid by uh their voluntary board. Uh and the inspector general's effectiveness derives its importance primarily by it
from its independence and oversight. The area of duplication and overlap. Um, I'm not familiar with the actual operations right now of the county clerk's office, but if the county
clerk's office has set up a a an office of um of a accounting review and people are in place, that certainly would not be a
function that would be expected of the proposed um inspector general. the inspector general would serve than just in the oversight provision of that. The independence is important also
through all of the whistleblower complaints that that come forward. At the present time, if there's a whistleblower complaint arriving from um within the county government, uh as I
understand it, um then it goes to the county administrator and that is in of itself a a conflict situation where that
person's job may be in in in great way affected by how uh that position looks. So, and it's been stated before that anything that we do as a
as a charter review committee and proposed to put on and anything that passes with the charter for the most part is going to have financial impacts. If you take our high number of a million dollars, that's
that's like a 15eenth of 1% of the total budget. And is that worth it? Is that worth it? That that oversight may prevent situations that we've seen unfold in city
government. And if we can prevent that, then I think we're all on the ounce of pre prevention if we can afford it. Um, and I think we can and I think we should. Um,
that the selection, as I mentioned, of the inspector general is outside the command structure of the respective county uh government. And it's and that appointing board would be purely
voluntary and not owing to anyone >> that in in in line of the um attorney uh inspector general rather. Uh the proposal of of how that board would be created
uh is a s suggestion but the intent is for the independence and you can you know discuss if you think this is a good um amendment to bring forward. You may have suggestions on how to
change that. At present, we're looking at five of the constitutional officers, the superintendent uh of schools, and the Lyon County Board to appoint one person, leaving you with
the seven uh people for the board. Uh that's one method. We're not locked into that. Um so uh designating the uh in inspector general
as the statutory agent for receiving and pro processing the whistleblower complaints as that person the go-to person for oversight. Uh it it directs people that here's a
person or an entity that is is identifiable and is responsible and is out outside the chain of of um of government uh independent.
>> So those are some of the things and you have any other questions be happy to try to answer them or call upon the experts to try to weigh in as well. Yeah, thank you. Uh on the just following up a little bit, who would hire the uh
inspector general? Would that be the board of county commissioners or would that be the county administrator? >> It would depend on the charter amendment. I mean, it would depend on what the the charter amendment language said. >> In the four counties, charter counties across the state, um they each have an
independent selection committee. However, two uh counties specifically ultimately require board or council approval. So, it's a little bit of a mix. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Miss Favors, you had a question or comment. >> Uh yes.
Recognizing the Is that on? >> Thank you. Recognizing the difference uh obvious difference between cities and counties, I just wondered uh do we or can we get any information on the cost of the inspector general position in the
city what it's cost overall just to compare to have a sense of comparison. >> You have some information on that don't you from the others? >> I didn't see that just counties. I think it was just counties, but some of them are consolidated counties. >> Yes. But at the committee's direction,
we could bring back um additional >> I would be interested in seeing that. And also the information about how many um complaints have been dealt with. >> All right. Oh, Heidi. >> Yeah. I just have I just have a clarifying question.
You said, Howard, that it would be outside of the command structure of county government with a volunteer board. Then who oversees them that position? Does that make sense? Like if they're independent, but they're in under the county structure, but out of
the command of the structure, then who determines that they're not, you know, going, you know, doing they're staying within their confines? Who's overseeing them? >> Right. So yeah, so that they are as I said uh
without salary uh independently appointed uh in our proposal it's the five constitutional offices superintendent of school board and the Leon Carney board itself uh and that
would result in seven seven people primary uh function of that committee is really to hire the inspector general. They really don't have a whole bunch of work to do outside of that. So that's why I say for the most part they're not
integral in what's going on in the uh in the government itself. >> So what is that person doing? What is their job if they're if they're if so the person who is sitting as the inspector general is a paid position, right? >> Yes. What are they doing if they aren't
if everyone else is independent? What are they doing to to earn the salary that I guess would be part of the position, >> right? So, it's part of of establishing the entity as an independent entity.
That's you know basic thing. >> Its main function is oversight. Okay. is oversight just like uh was mentioned you know in the potential duplication of work >> it's that's not the intention the intention is to over see the work that
is being done. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Okay. and and also as it comes to the whistleblower to eliminate that conflict of in interest uh the conflict that would be there uh under the present
condition >> potential conflict or exist I mean >> it you know once that once that complaint comes to be resolved by the county administrator it's almost most likely there's going to
be a conflict there. >> It it it's the innate situation of the of the chain of command. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Jones. Do you have a um comment or question, please? >> Yes, madam chair.
Um with the current structure and safeguards is already articulated. I guess for me it would be an explanation whereby the inspector general is not duplicative of already
existing structures and safeguards. For example, at our Leyon County School District, we have an in uh internal auditing function that manages all of these types of complaints. And in the
chain of command, it reports directly to the board. Although hired by the superintendent, the person is reports to the board. So all audits, all compliance issues, all of um even
those things that rise to investigations are handled even subcontracted by the internal auditing function. Also the audits of our finances and our and our desk audits and a review of school policies are all managed out of the
office of the internal auditor who again provides uh reports to us voluminous reports particularly uh and the day-to-day operations primarily beyond what they do directly. the balance is subcontracted
to auditing firms both local as who bring subject matter expertise. I can imagine that with you for our local government that same level of expertise in terms of the auditors that are commissioned have experience in county and municipal governments but those
safeguards are put in place through the sampling and the work and the and the and the processes managed by that office. So for me if those off if there are already those present functions already existing for me it would be an explanation for how this inspector
general is not duplicative. >> Do you have a comment? >> Yes. And I I think it's helpful to go back to the three primary functions which are investigating complaints, auditing and then contract oversight. All three of which are existing within
the existing county structure. However, they all also have independent oversight in some way or fashion. For example, uh with the uh auditing functions provided by the clerk, we have an independent auditing committee specifically to
ensure the independence and objectivity of the all of the clerk's auditing functions. In addition to that, we have contract and procurement oversight internally which is also supported by that independently elected clerk. And then finally with the investigation and
complaints, the uh state commission on ethics serves as a independent entity to enforce ethics statewide. Um but also the clerk has their own fraud, waste and abuse hotline. Um in addition to again internal safeguards that we have in
place too, >> Madame Chair. >> Yes sir. If I might also add, for example, members of the school board, if there are areas of concern, for example, for me, most recently, uh, regarding procurements,
I wanted an investig not an investigation, but an analysis of our processes and procedures to ensure that uh, we were making every concession to make certain that our processes were streamlined.
I could call for that as an elected member and the superintendent also is permitted but the reports and the and it's uh oversight comes back to the elected members of the school board to receive whatever investigations come to
us and there is also a citizen advisory committee. Each school board member is permitted to appoint persons to that audit committee and that audit committee is then chaired by an elected member of the school board and that and again their work is managed by both the board
by uh influences by virtue of statute as well as by the superintendent such that the functions in terms of them uh how the information is reported that is audited to ensure that we are in uh compliance is still managed by the office of the internal auditor.
>> Right. Thank you. M Robertson, you have a comment. >> Good morning. Just uh a question. So with the inspector general position, it's saying a office. Are we talking about one inspector general with a
office staff of individuals or are you proposing just one person? And so if we had uh an open purse uh we would uh be proposing two people uh but not an
inspector general issue general. Uh but again that that capability would be left entirely to the funding decisions of the county and the office would function to the
degree the county funded the position. So typically when you look at an office of the inspector general and you have a complaint per se, you have those investigators that will go out and do the investigation, get their findings,
etc., and then, you know, turn it over to the inspector general. So, I'm just trying to understand the idea of if this is one person that's overseeing like a whistleblower complaint, that's a whole lot of autonomy without that person
reporting to somebody else. Like they're going to they're going to investigate the complaint, make the decision, and render the report like one person. They're going to do everything with a complaint. Is that the idea? >> I don't know. Um so I I I didn't think
that um aspect of it. Um what I was more focused on was the independence of that person in oversight position. Uh I could call upon uh one of the what I consider experts sitting in our audience if you'd
like them to try to respond to that if the chair would allow that. >> Um I'd be happy to do that. I mean we have two more hours to discuss this. I don't have a motion on the floor at all at this point. We have independence duplication costs that we are all
considering. So I'd like to bring that home as I just >> but I can provide some clarification or not clarification but offer the examples again from the other charter counties that have them. They range from 12 to 42 full-time employees to cover all the
functions that the OIGs respectively uh provide. And I think that's what I wanted to draw attention to because typically with the office of the inspector general, you have multiple people in place to ensure the integrity of the process. So having one inspector
general to investigate the complaint, look at whether or not the investigation was done correctly and make a determination, that's a lot of autonomy if we're only considering one person. So when we're looking at fiscal impact, if we're talking one person versus 12 to
42, now we're talking a lot with governance structure. >> Any comments on that? >> Yeah, I I I think that um >> I mean we really don't have a we don't have a motion with any specifics in that uh arena.
>> Sure. And we can So we can go on discussing that after the motion is made. So would you would you entertain the motion of what the So so I'll make a motion. >> Thank you. >> And the motion will be to establish the
office of the intern inspector general uh with the budget to be det. The intention is that the uh fiscal aspects of of this um office of the inspector general will be funding
determined by the county government. Uh and that um yes and I'll I'll just leave it as simple as that and we can discuss all the other things as we go along. >> Clarate your motion.
>> What was that? >> Will you repeat? I'm just going to make it simple to establish the office of the inspector general. >> I make a pride. >> Um is that option two or that's >> um this is >> it would be option two but he did
specifically say uh to not have uh budgetary financial cost included in language which we wouldn't know >> 19. >> Yeah. And so it sounds like option I just want to >> option two. Now do I hear a second on
that motion? >> Second. >> Motion's made in second and we can discuss this further. Um I'd like to take a roll call vote on this. >> We don't have to vote on this. >> Page 19.
>> Yeah. More discussion. I'm sorry. Excuse me. >> Oh, >> I didn't see. Are you still questioning or not? >> No, I just >> All right. Sorry. Apologies for that. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry. I was just trying to get through to whether we have time for sure. Okay.
>> Okay. Go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. So, just a few things that um the and and I'll leave this for more clarification from the experts, but we already have
an ex an ethics commission. Uh they have staff. We are proposing this as an independent oversight position statutory. Um
uh that the clerk of the court is doing the um uh audits. Yes, thank you. Uh but she's not investigative. Okay.
uh and the inspector general uh would be purely oversight in that position, but the inspector general can do investigation. Just wanted to make that clear. Um
and as to the point of of your point, I'd like to call one or two of the experts up if you would allow that. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what our procedure is for going forward with your motion.
So, I Yeah, if you >> Okay. >> If you have specific questions for the Who would you like to call up? >> Well, let's start with Mr. Pile. >> Pardon me. >> Mr. Payne. >> Payne, rather. I'm sorry. >> Mr. My chemistry teacher in college was
Pile. >> Oh, okay. Right. >> I flipped. >> Okay. Okay. My my point in making the present the proposal was to have a a single focus, a single office that all county
employees and all county citizens will have if they are made aware or if they become aware of any potential problems whether they are ethics related, potential uh fraud related uh financial issues. if there's
a a a single say a hotline as I've heard that the clerk maintains a a particular hotline but as far as I know she is not uh uh receiving uh whistleblower complaints
which is a primary function of any uh inspector general office which is something very very specific. There are very specific uh statutory requirements for whistleblower complaints that needs to be uh have a dedicated focus there.
Uh there's been some concern about there's not a lot of uh has been a lot of complaints, but that is actually the ideal situation where it if if there are no actual infractions, then you you don't need complaints. But if there are
infractions, there needs to be uh a infrastructure in place to receive them and respond to them appropriately. >> Yeah. >> Any other questions or anything? >> Yeah, Dr.
Chair, could we have Mr. Robinson's question? >> Your specific question about the >> Yes. So, >> autonomy. >> My my specific question because we were talking about one inspector general based on my understanding and working with other offices of inspector
generals. It's an office with a lot of people. So, as we're talking about this and we're talking about the fiscal impact, I was just trying to understand because we were speaking about one person. And so you're proposing an office with all functions of a office of inspector general.
>> Yes. But uh offices of inspector general are widely varied in terms of size and complexity. >> Lyon County ALS already has a particular infrastructure set up for auditing auditing offices in place with the
clerk's office. So my idea is that would help alleviate any fiscal concerns because that infrastructure is in place. But the office of inspector general will be a general oversight of of that function of the fiscal issues of ethical
issues, potential fraud. uh someone who has a a good firm understanding of every department within county government so they know what appropriate policies and procedures are and if those policies are followed. Uh
they would have a a regular uh audit schedule similar to other audits but especially focused to uh focused on uh responsible government governance of uh
proper uh monitoring of of taxpayers money and taxpayers energy for for government control. So more than one person, an office >> potentially more. It could it could start with uh one office of of one
oversight official and it it may grow depending on how what they find. Uh there the there would be an inspector general probably administrative assistant as well. It is also very important to have the
potential to bring in outside independent legal counsel. uh that does not need to be a a uh employee of the county or of the uh of the of the board, the oversight board.
It can be a contract official. I could uh point out the similarity uh only relating to ethics with the Tallahassee independent ethics board. They have their own independent council. They contract with them with him. He is
not an employee of the city or of the ethics or well the the ethics board contracts with that that uh attorney. He's not exclusive. He has other clients but he he is the the dedicated
independent uh ethics board attorney but he's a contractor. He's not a uh not an uh uh an employee. Uh another potential area for contracting is in investigations.
Uh the also the Tallahassy independent ethics boards brings in outside independent investigators for specific cases as needed. This could happen here as well. potent there would ideally be a
a uh basically a threshold funding mechanism. Uh somebody mentioned uh 500,000 at some some point uh that is more or less the the budget of the Tallahassee
independent ethics board is a little over 400,000. It is intentionally sent >> so that if investigations need to happen, they can bring in outside investigators without having going back to the people
who may potentially be under investigation for additional investigations. Whatever they don't use at the end of the year is turned back over to the general fund of the city and then it's re reallocated the following year.
if that helps. >> I think the county attorney wanted to clarify specifically on the autonomy. >> Sure. So, and it's in the agenda item, uh, but it would extend to any functions
performed by the clerk. The clerk is a separate constitutional officer. The county has no authority or oversight over the clerk. And in fact, if anything, it's the other way around. The
clerk has oversight over the county in certain respects. So to be really clear, nothing in this charter would enable any office of inspector general that is a county office of inspector general to
perform any oversight functions over the clerk. Now in some jurisdictions and this is also in the agenda item other constitutional officers like and the school board and others can participate can basically enter into an interlocal agreement uh and voluntarily have the
inspector general perform services for them. But I I just want to make that clear. I don't want there to be any misconception about that. The other thing I would say is the county is also required and the clerk retains doesn't
it's not even the county retains an independent audit firm that then audits the county and also the clerk's functions performed on behalf of the county and they make their own independent analysis and provide an
annual report every year. this I think it's coming back to the meeting the next meeting of our board next week, next Tuesday. There's an update in status report because that independent auditor found some deficiencies with the functions being
performed by the clerk and there's an update because the board asked for it to say these are red flags. We want more information. We want to make sure these are being addressed. So even though the IG wouldn't have that oversight
authority, there actually is already a statutoily required external auditor that actually audits the clerk. >> Just wanted to let you know that. >> Thank you, Mr. Hurley. >> Um I wanted to uh kind of do some
translation on your on your question because I I think that uh >> translation >> Yeah. like that that uh that uh I know that the ethics board is uh I've I've Bernie Ernie and I have been
through a lot of this at the city and um they they sometimes do a uh it the way they talk about it can be confusing. So I I I'd like to try to talk about in practice what the city ethics board actually looks like. Um there's seven of them, right? Is that
right, Ernie? about duplicating an ethics board. >> Understood. Okay. Uh there are generally speaking two staff, right? There's the the >> there are three staff. There's the ethics officer. Uh there's an
administrative assistant and a uh contract attorney. >> How many times a year do you all meet? >> The ethics board meets uh every month with the exception of January and July. >> And what's typically on the agenda?
uh outstanding complaints uh recommendations for uh ordinances or charter amendments uh that affects ethics. And so my experience with um working
with uh ethics advocates and commissioners on either sides of complaints um is that it is an effective tool um to make decision makers more thoughtful about the ramifications of their actions. Um I understand that
there is a fiscal impact with it and um I have seen the good work of the ethics board in Tasi. I I know that um do you all have your own building? >> They are given office space by the city. But to be clear that the uh the ethics
board has certain duties that I don't foresee with the >> the board that will be responsible for hiring the inspector general. Do you guys go on out of town lavish trips? >> The staff of the ethics board. >> The staff goes on conferences relating
to ethics. >> And I asked those questions to try to alleviate concerns that people may have that we're, you know, we're not creating some new huge government. Um, it is a relatively small shop. And how many people would you estimate are in the audience at any given ethics board other
than Stanley Sims? >> Uh, generally three or four, I believe. Okay. Nikki, did you have a comment on that to clarify? >> Yes. I want I want to make clear we're talking about an office of the inspector general. Yeah. Being established, not a
uh >> ethics board or ethics commission. And while fiscal impact or budgets were provided, that's those are two separate things, two separate charges, functions, authority, etc. >> Madam Chair. >> Yes, ma'am.
My question was about the amount of people that we were discussing related to the agenda item on an office of the inspector general. Were we talking about an office with a inspector general and multiple people or were we talking about
one person? I don't know anything about a board or the relevance that that has with my question but I was asking a question to understand the overall function. Were we talking about one person or an office with multiple people
with multiple functions? >> And last comment they >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yes. just uh >> we do need to at some point. I mean some of these questions could be >> got a motion on it.
>> Yeah, there >> could be answered in the agenda item that that will come back to us. >> Yeah, >> Mr. Jones the previous question. >> Yeah. >> Second. >> We can vote on that. Second on that
>> information though of information. Do we even know what this do? We Okay, point of information. If this comes back with the staff working on a charter, I mean, does this come back for us then to decide whether we
want it to go whether we want it to go as a recommendation or is if we vote on this motion, does it just staff just work on it and it is adopted by this vote? No, it's I can go ahead with that. Yeah,
I generally speaking, the way our process is set up, if you give us the direction at this point, you're voting on charter language at that time. So, you've you've decided you want to advance a charter amendment. You're asking us to bring back language for you to do that. So, that's generally the answer to the question. If if it's
helpful, I'll just add one quick thing just to give you all an idea of the nature of of all this. And I'm and I'm not arguing the fact that, you know, some may may determine and you may determine this is necessary, but I've been at the county a long time and and I could tell you we're really proactive
about the way we go about um uh hotlines and fraud lines and re reaching out to people. It's not something we sit back for. Every time we touch people whe in our procurement documents, the first thing we have on if you have any issues, you have any questions, you have any concerns, anything that alarms you, call
this number. Clerk of the court does the same thing. Anytime we touch a vendor, anytime we touch anybody else, we've got big, bold, call this line. Whistleblowers, whistleblowers are protected under Florida statutes. If we have a whistleblower issue, I don't talk to the person, don't talk to the employee. they're protected in ways that
that Chassity can discuss and and those matters are investigated as such. Um 99.9% of our issues that we hear back from people are you charged me too much on the stormwater fee. I I have one property um you charged me for two and
we go out on the property. I'm looking at Rashonda back there. We say you're right. You have we we there was a there was a clerical issue and these are the way that we address these matters. So again, I just wanted to give you a little bit of the nature of that. But um but but Sean, to answer your question, yeah, generally at this point, we would
bring back uh language um for a proposed charter amendment. >> And and if I'm correct, uh the language on the charter amendment is something that we would based on our conversation here today, the staff would create and we would vote on that at our next and
final meeting if we if we move forward with this motion today. Am I correct on that? There will be one more vote when we hear when we see the charter language. If this motion passes today, if it doesn't, we'll move on to other items. >> No. >> So, yeah,
>> point maybe point of order, but I'm not sure what I'm saying right now. >> But, u So, we are in the middle and I totally agree with Mr. Jones's um uh Yeah, I'm going to do something with
that. I I I totally agree with what you said. It turned into a discussion. I was in the middle of asking experts to respond to questions, not to have a discussion. We still are finishing with
>> Mr. Pay. >> So, the question has been called. So, we do go to a vote at this time for future. Um, I do think we need to have a roll call vote on this, please. >> Linda Bon Edwards, >> no. Liz Ellis,
>> no. >> Anita Favorvers, >> no. >> Max Hurley, >> I. >> Daryl Jones, >> no. >> Howard Kesler, >> hi. >> Henry Lewis,
>> Heidi Otwway, >> no. >> Sean Pitman, >> no. >> Ryan Ray, >> yes. >> Jamar Robersonson, >> no. >> William Smith, >> no. Bruce Strobble, >> yes. >> Jared Terry,
>> no. >> Katrina Tugerson, >> no. >> Barry Wil, I'm sorry. Vice Chair Haynes, >> no. >> And Chair Lindley, >> no. >> Did I bail? >> Sorry.
>> Temple Robinson, I'm so sorry. >> No. >> Bills 4 to 14. >> What was Excuse me. Pardon me. Uhhuh. Yes, >> there is there has to be a vote. And I thought that was clear, but I don't
think it was. >> There has to be a vote on the call the question. So that's what everyone was voting on. You weren't voting on the substantive motion. >> Oh. >> So do you want to revote on whether to call the question? >> I'll go first.
>> All in favor of calling the question. >> No. >> Okay. Do we need to go around again on the question? >> Recalling the question. >> What is so this this is a this is a >> previous question suspends discussion. It takes us back to the >> the previous question.
>> Yeah. So so the question becomes does everyone want to end debate? But it's a procedural thing and you have to take a vote to ensure that a majority wants to end debate. So it's a procedural vote that's taken before you take a vote on the motion. >> Sorry. >> Point of order though. Wouldn't it be a
motion to reconsider the call in the question vote? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, that's not correct procedurally. >> I'm sorry, but I'm not sure where we stand. Are we >> Do we need to go around once more with a vote on the question? >> Just just to
vote on calling the question. Do it by that if you need to or by voice vote and then just have a new vote just to ensure that everything is done correctly on the motion itself. >> Madame chair. Yes. point of order. I mean, we have just taken a vote. Now, if
we needed an explanation of what we were voting on, we should have given that before we voted. So, now we do have a vote that we just took and it failed. So, I mean, we don't revote just because people were confused or whatever, but we
have a vote that failed. >> Chair, you can do whatever you want with this. I'm just telling you, it's obvious people were confused about what they were voting on. You you can do with that what you want. >> I we did just have a voice vote on
calling the question and which you all said I to I mean that was just a few moments ago. >> Madam Chair, point of order. >> Sir, >> we we we we didn't we had a vote again, but we didn't have another motion, but we had a vote. I mean, you can interpret it, clarify whatever way you want, but
the record will show that we just had a vote and it failed. We just have another have another motion and have another vote if you want, but we just voted not to end the debate. So, Dr. Kesler is is wanting to talk. Others may want to talk, but we had a vote and that is
Robert's rules of order and that vote failed. >> Failed. >> Chass, you're the attorney in the room. What are we supposed to do? >> Do we need to go around again for the vote on the question >> at this point? At this point, if if
there was confusion about what the vote was and someone wants to make a motion to reconsider who was on the prevailing side, so you voted against the call the question and you want to reconsider it,
you can make that motion. >> I make a motion to reconsider calling the question. Question's been made in second to reconsider calling the question. >> I don't know what the hell that means. >> That means >> but I vote that means that we vote that
that means that we vote that now we'll be postured to vote on calling the question >> whether or not to end the debate >> whether or not to end the debate. So we'll go another 30 seconds >> or with its failure with the failure of
the call to previous question it does take us back to the original motion which we can now manage which is now on the floor. The only thing is it is still open up to conversation but we can now madame chair take a vote at your behest. >> Amen. >> Correct.
>> You can call for >> Okay. So I I withdraw my motion. >> So we can now call Okay. Okay. The vote would be >> not this vote. >> The vote would be on option two. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Which is Dr. Kesler's >> Yes. >> motion. >> Okay. Uh All right.
>> I will get it right this time. >> On option two as proposed >> as proposed by member Kesler. >> Linda stated. >> Oh. Um option two to bring back proposed charter amendment language at your next meeting for the committee committee's
consideration. Linda Bon Edwards. No >> Liz Ellis. >> No >> Anita Favorvers. >> No >> Max Hurley. >> I >> Daryl Jones. >> No. >> Howard Kesler? >> I >> Henry Lewis.
>> No. >> Heidi Altway. >> No. >> Sean Pitman. >> No. >> Ryan Ray. >> Yes. >> Robersonson. >> No. >> Temple Robinson. >> No. >> William Smith. >> No. >> Bruce Stroble.
>> Yes. Jared Terry, >> no. >> Katrina Tugerson, >> no. >> Vice Chair Haynes, >> no. >> And Chair Lley, >> no. >> Madame Chair, >> yes, sir. >> I'd like to move option one. >> Can we Can we get that the vote on the
tally on that before we >> Motion failed? Four to 14. Same as last. >> What was it? >> Four to 14. >> Four to 14. Motion failed. >> Thank god I'm not an attorney. >> Okay. Well, I apologize for missing the ball in this capacity.
>> So, we have a motion for option one >> to accept their support and table this issue >> and table the issue. >> That's option one in in our document. >> Make a roll call. >> Well, I don't hear a second on that. >> Second.
>> Uh motion's been made and second to accept the report and take no further option action on this. Uh let's do a roll call vote on that. We're in discussion. Is there going to be discussion on the item? >> You have a comment?
>> Um I'm sure that there are comments. Um so we we're making the distinction between doing nothing and doing this is that it precludes us from ever considering it in the future. >> That's not true. It >> it would require a supermajority vote in order to bring it back up if it's
dispensed of and tabled today. >> Correct. >> Okay. Thank you. This those who could come back the next meeting. >> Yeah. All right. M >> come madam. Yes, madam chair. I I did
hear um city manager favor she had some questions and there may be others who have questions and I think she asked for some perhaps some more information that she wanted to be brought back. I don't know if she's willing to have that information brought back at another meeting or or others are saying, "Okay,
well, this is not something I want to move forward." But I mean, you know, you can always ask for additional information and to be brought back, you know, at another meeting and and not necessarily pass or fail this particular motion if Miss Favors or others have other questions,
>> but within vote. Is that correct? Um, >> I'm so Wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, I'm I'm still I still have the floor. I I mean, Madam Chair, >> carry on. >> Okay. Um, but if you have other questions and you need clarity on those,
I mean, we can ask for that versus voting the motion up or down at this particular time is my understanding. >> And that that's incorrect. There is a motion on the floor. Debate is supposed to be about the motion on the floor. If there if there is continued discussion on this item after that that's unrelated
to that after this vote is taken that's the appropriate time to raise those issues. >> So we can take a vote at this point on option one accept the report and take no further action at this time. We'll do a roll call vote. >> Linda Bon Edwards
>> yes. >> Liz Ellis. >> Yes. >> Anita Favors. >> Yes. >> Max Hurley. No. >> Daryl Jones. >> Yes. >> Howard Kesler. >> Yes. >> Henry Lewis. >> Yes. >> Heidi Alway.
>> Yes. >> Sean Pitman. >> Yes. >> Ryan Ray. >> No. >> Shamar Robersonson. >> Yes. >> Temple Robinson. >> Yes. >> William Smith. >> Yes. >> Bruce Stroble.
>> Yes. >> Jared Terry. >> Yes. >> Katrina Tugerson. Yes. >> Vice Chair Haynes. >> Yes. >> And Chair Lindley. >> Yes. >> Motion passes. 16-2. >> 16-2. Thank you.
>> Right. Um I'm suggesting we take about a five minute break and we will come back to um our next item of business. >> It's five after about five minutes. Five or six minutes. Please. I was a little disappointed we didn't
get more. That's the way it is. >> How you didn't need >> That's right. I think I think u we had a little unwanted assistance. >> Okay.
>> Thank you. All right. Thank you. Yeah, >> and I think they would have renaming policies and procedures. As you'll recall, uh this was requested by the con the committee to encourage the county and the city to work together in aligning their respective policies uh to
prevent public safety and emergency service related issues. The draft language as provided in your materials is also reflected on the screen. Um just looking ahead if approved by the committee to today. This recommendation would be included in the
status report to be presented to the board in March on the committee's efforts uh so far at that time as well as the committee's final report later this summer. Uh so with that uh we're seeking the committee's direction and I'll hand it back to the chair.
>> Okay. Thank you Nikki. Uh, I have some cards up. Uh, Mr. Haynes. >> Yes, Madam Chair. I move option one. >> Second the motion. >> Motion's been made and seconded to move option one, which is approve the draft policy um and recommend it to the board of
county commissioners. Any discussion? Miss Miss Edwards? >> Just just one question. I always get a little concerned when I see language like work with I don't know what that means and and I I'm assuming well a bad
word I would presume that the that the county will determine what work with means >> with the county attorney like to speak to language. >> Yes, it is open to interpretation and it would be discretion of the county what that meant. Yes.
>> Okay. Mr. Smith, >> we're not making an amendment to the charter. We're just recommending >> hope you will. >> This is just a recommendation to the board of county commissioners which will be included along with any amendments you do pass or advance rather. Uh it
will be included but no, this isn't going to the ballot and it would not uh affect the charter. Do >> other questions? Um Ryan Ray, >> it's a good common sense u provision here. I look forward to supporting it. Okay. Other comments on that?
Uh, okay. Without moving forward, we'll take a roll call vote on this, please. Item option uh one, which is just approve the draft policy recommendation to the county commission. >> Linda Bon Edwards, >> yes. >> Liz Ellis, >> yes. >> Anita Favors,
>> yes. >> Max Hurley, >> yes. >> Daryl Jones, Howard Kesler, >> yes. >> Henry Lewis, >> yes. >> Heidi Alway Oh, she's out of the room. Um,
>> John Pitman. >> There's Heidi. >> Uh, we have option one on the floor to uh provide this policy recommendation to the board of county commissioners. >> Yes. >> Yes.
>> Perfect. Uh Sean, did I Yes. >> Okay. Uh Ryan Ray, >> yes. >> Jamario Robersonson, >> yes. >> Temple Robinson, >> yes. >> William Smith, >> yes. >> Bruce Strobble, >> yes. >> Jared Terry, >> yes. >> Katrina Tugerson,
>> yes. >> Vice Chair Haynes, >> yes. >> And Chair Lley, >> yes. >> The motion passes unanim unanimously. >> Thank you. >> All right. We are now for agenda item number three, which is uh consideration to revise the preamble to the Leyon
County Charter. Nikki. >> All right. Last time you'll hear from me, I promise. As previously requested by the committee, uh this item provides proposed charter amendment language uh revising the preamble of the charter to reflect the esteemed humanity among
residents of Lyon County. Again, the strap language is provided uh on the screen as provided in your materials. Um, as a reminder, a simple majority uh is needed to recommend a charter amendment to the board of county commissioners. If approved, the recommended language would be presented
to the board in March who at that time will uh vote whether advan whether to advance it to a public hearing later this summer. Uh so with that again, we're seeking the committee's direction and I'll hand it back to the chair. >> Madam Chair, >> yes sir. >> I move option one.
>> Madam chair, I second the motion. >> Been made and seconded for option one. Do I hear discussion on this? Okay. Hearing none, uh, we'll take a roll call vote. That's on option one. >> Nikki. >> Linda Bon Edwards. >> Yes.
>> Liz Ellis. >> Yes. >> Anita Favors. >> Yes. >> Max Hurley. >> Yes. >> Daryl Jones. >> Yes. >> Howard Kesler? >> Yes. >> Henry Lewis? >> Yes. >> Heidi Otwe. >> Yes. >> Sean Pitman. Yes.
>> Ryan Ray. >> Yes. >> Chamar Robersonson. >> Yes. >> Temple Robinson. >> Yes. >> William Smith. >> Yes. >> Ruth Stroble. >> Yes. >> Jared Terry. >> Yes. >> Katrina Tugerson. >> Yes. >> Vice Chair Haynes. >> Yes. >> And Chair Lindley.
>> Yes. >> The motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you. All right. Um, another good one. Okay. Agenda item four is our last item of business today. That's consideration to establish a
affordable housing trust fund in the Lyon County Charter. And uh Shington, I think you're handling this today. >> Yeah. >> Sorry, this one won't go that fast. You can guess. Um so, good afternoon members. Um as requested by the committee, this item provides a proposal
amendment to Leyon County Charter with ballot language to establish an affordable housing trust fund in the charter. The item also provides an analysis of the proposal that was um submitted by member Hurley. However, our
recommendation is that the committee adopt a policy recommendation rather a charter amendment that reflects and reaffirms the county's commitment to increasing and preserving the stock of affordable housing in the community.
So members, as we shared at your January 8th meeting, the county commission has the policy budgetary authority to address affordable housing without the need for a charter change. As a result, just over the past 5 years, the county has invested $5.8 $.8 million in direct
funding and authorized $195 million in bond financing that has or will construct more than 1,200 new affordable housing units to address the highest affordable housing needs here in our community. But there's more. Within the past six
months, the board has more than doubled the county's annual funding for affordable housing to $500,000 annually. Authorized $100 million in bond financing through the state that will be invested by our HFA in projects that will create more units for low-income
households. last week approved $93,000 in GAP financing to a rental development project to secure more than $35 million in state funding and private investment that will build 86 new units for
low-income households. Last week scheduled a public hearing to establish a property tax exemption for rental development projects that dedicate units to low-income households that are not eligible for state programs. And next month, the board will
hold that public hearing and upon approval, we will promote to every developer, developer group locally, statewide, and nationally about the opportunity to come here and build more affordable housing in Tallahassee, Leon County. And this will all be
accomplished without a change to the county charter. As we shared in the item and in the previous item, most county charters do not include language regarding affordable housing because county charters generally address the governing authority,
structure, and power of county government. Leon Countyy's charter does not express specific policy priorities, which the board regularly achieves through its strategic planning process, budgetary pro um uh priorities, and um policy adoptions.
Only four of the 20 charter counties include affordable housing provisions which generally memorialize the existing broad discretion of the county commissions to establish and implement a trust fund dedicated to affordable housing which by the way we already have
an existing affordable housing trust fund. However, as requested by the committee, a proposed charter amendment and ballot language is included and it's in your packet which was established um which would establish an affordable housing trust fund in the county
charter. It's very similar to the language adopted in the four other counties. Like the other like the others, it doesn't require an annual minimum financial commitment and maintains the county commission's explicit authority to determine the
appropriate revenue sources for an affordable housing trust fund. As mentioned earlier, we also provide an analysis of the charter amendment provided by member Hurley um which um we're we're not recommending and we give
the reasons in the item. It's detailed and those include that it proposes the establishment of a um separate very lowincome affordable housing trust fund and the dedication of 5% of the county's portion of the infrastructure sir tax
which statutoily is limited to purchasing land which according to our to developers that we work with that is not their highest need. Their highest need is money. They need money for construction. um that's typically what the need is not funds for land and we're limited when we use our infrastructure
dollars to specifically purchasing land for affordable housing. Um, additionally, the board very recently rejected a similar proposal that would have diverted portions of the county's portion of the search tax already dedicated to critical transportation
needs. And instead, what the board did is again more than doubled the county's annual investment in building affordable housing with general revenue and the economic development portion of the search tax because those are not constrained to just land um which
increase the county's funding annual funding for um affordable housing to $500,000. The pro proposal also creates a new executive director position, but the cor county already has a housing services manager position which responsibilities
include overseeing administering the county's numerous housing programs from down payment assistance to home plate home replacement, staffing two statutoily established affordable housing committees, submitting annual reports to the state on the county's affordable housing investments, meeting
regularly with um community stakeholders, and partners to collaborate, coordinate, and maximize affordable housing resources here in our community and applying for grants opportunity to preserve and increase the stock of affordable housing.
The proposal u by member Hurley also calls for transferring state and federal housing grants into the um new trust fund which would violate the Florida statutes as well as federal rules and regulations that require that those dollars remain segregated when we
receive those dollars. Um, it also holds a trans transferring the net proceeds from the sale of county owned real property into the trust fund, which is inconsistent with the countyy's policy and would violate our interlocal agreement with the HFA. What we do now is we transfer net
proceeds of the sale of county owned properties to the ED HFA to invest in affordable housing programs such as the county's emergency home repair program which provides financial assistance to low-income households in unincorporated Lyon County that are in need of
immediate and dire repairs to their homes. This program is crit is a critical part of the count county county's housing services. It recognizes that the best way to preserve affordable housing and prevent homelessness is to ensure that people are able to stay in their homes.
Over the past years um five years, the proceeds from the sale of county properties um have generated more than $600,000 to the HFA for the emergency home repair program which has assisted more than 60 homes homeowners.
The trustman also would create a um the proposal that um member Hurley also presented would create a third citizen committee on affordable housing. However, we already have two um statutoily created. The affordable housing advisory committee which um Dr.
Strubel sits on consists of citizens that meet every other month to review the county's established policies and submits an annual report with recommendations to the county commission to enhance those policies for affordable housing. the the housing finance authority that
also consists of citizens appointed by the county commission that meet monthly to identify opportunities to invest in affordable housing projects through primarily bond financing. Again, as we mentioned earlier, more than 195 do $195 million achieved thus far in the past 5
years through that process. And finally, member Hurley's proposal calls for an annual independent audit of the proposed trust fund in accordance with Florida statutes. Because a lot of our dollars that we provide is and primary source of dollars um that we provide for affordable housing is from
um state funding through SHIP. Our existing affordable housing trust fund already undergoes annual audits to ensure that all funds are evaluated for financial transparency and legal compliance. It's for those u reasons that we we don't recommend member Hurley's proposed
charter um which is I believe under option three right now. Um now given the board's commitment to affordable housing that we've detailed in the county's adopted policies, established programs, standing committees, dedicated staffing,
committed funding, long-term agreements, and significant community partnerships. We do recommend that the committee consider a policy recommendation, which is option number one, rather than a charter amendment. The policy recommendation would encourage the board to continue the county's long-standing
commitment to increasing and preserving the stock affordable housing in the community through its existing authority and would be included as part of the committee's final report. And with that, Madam Chair, I'll turn it over to you and I can ask >> Thank you, Shington. Uh Mr. Haynes had a comment.
>> Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in as much as this analysis uh informs us of what the county is already doing uh for those of us who may not know um and I would like to commend first of all the county for what what
they are already doing and I would move option one. >> Motion's been made to move option one. Do we hear a second? Failing that, we'll continue on. >> I'll second it. Motion's been made and seconded on
option one, which is uh if you can see on page 253 of your documents, there are the four options to approve a policy recommendation. They're up there. Thank you. Policy recommendation encouraging the board of county commissioners to continue the county's
long-standing commitment to increasing and preserving the stock of affordable housing in the community. Okay. Do we have discussion? Yeah, I I'd like to discuss this. >> Um, >> so
>> let's do this, y'all. >> If you go through this packet, um, I'd like to look at this, which is page 266 of 272. And so I just tear it out of the book.
Just tear it completely out. And then also tear out page 254. And so I think the way that we should be thinking about this is that any housing ballot would have two lists. The first
list is revenue sources and the second list is potential expenditures. And so really what we have on this agenda item is two separate proposals of two separate lists um different revenue sources and different expenditures.
There's a staff proposed charter amendment and then there's some of the community language that we've been working on uh over the past four months. And so I would like to have an intelligent and smart and thoughtful conversation about the revenue sources
and the expenditure types. I know that most people might not want to talk about construction. Most people might not want to talk about growth and housing in our community. Um, but I hope that there are some people at this table who do. I hope that there are some people today who
want to talk about potential revenue sources and potential expenditure types that are in this housing uh amendment. In order to do that, again, I would take out page 266 and 254 and lay them both in front of
you so that you can look at proposed revenue sources and proposed expenditures. >> Thank you, Mr. Hurley. Mr. Sturbal. Um, thank you, Madam Chair. Um, considering the presentation we just had from the staff, again, I want to follow what Mr.
Haynes said and commend you all on the work that you're doing. I still hold the position that we are facing an affordable housing crisis in our county, and our country, and when you talk to our citizens and you hear about what's going on, people are being displaced, people are losing their homes, and we
have a growing homeless population as well. uh in order to address this I believe that we can't take our >> there a second on substitute motion >> second for discussion >> there a second on substitute motion >> second for discussion >> motion's been made and second on the substitute motion
>> um so if I can in discussion about this um again that's why I said to just tear out these two pages so we can look at them at the same time so um some of the differences in these two documents is that the ballot and uh language >> sirly I haven't recognized you for discussion at this point
would you okay please I mean just want to keep a little order here instead of just a conversation between the two of you >> okay carry on >> okay um what is not included in the county's language is there's no
suggestion unless I'm misreading this um other than the purposes of so what we're talking about here y'all two 254 of the attachment 254 of 272 2. So, subsection two, purposes of trust fund. It says,
this is county language I'm reading, the purpose of the trust fund is to provide a continuing non-lapsing fund for the Lyon County Commission um to use to address the need for affordable housing within Lyon County. Um it says it'll be used to create and sustain affordable
housing throughout Lyon County for renters and homeowners and increase housing opportunities for very low and extremely lowincome households. Not not bad. But just to uh get us on the same page about the the approach here, um
an alternative approach would be like you see on page 267. Um subsection D, authorized uses. Um so on page 267 um it says acquisition of land or existing housing units,
construction, preservation or rehabilitation of affordable housing, gap financing for multif family housing, down payment assistance, community land trust or land banking activities, emergency repairs, etc. And so I just wanted to get this body's thoughts on if
that is one of the main differences between these two proposals. Do you all prefer an approach that has no real enumerated um uses of of the funds or something that is more outlined as what our expectations are for the fund?
>> Thank you. Are there comments on that? >> Miss Mr. >> I'm sorry. >> Oh, and I see Mr. Robersonson too had your you had your card at first. >> Yeah. So in the report out from the county it was stated that there is an existing
um trust fund. So we're asking for an a different trust fund with a different with a different meaning. So what would be the difference in the two trust funds and which one you know like how would I guess the county decide which one to use
at which time? Like I'm just trying to understand cuz we're saying establish an affordable housing trust fund but he stated there is an existing affordable housing trust fund. >> There is. >> So how do we establish something and it already exists?
>> So um I think that is best uh addressed um one plank at a time. So, one of those planks is uh staff had outlined that there is in the agenda one of the existing citizen boards for affordable
housing under state law requires at least eight, I think a maximum of 11 members. Um, under this proposal that I've laid out, there's a suggestion for a seven member board of trustees, one by each member of the county commission. Um, this is when staff could come in and
say, "Hey, tell you what, let's just roll these two into one." And perhaps the easiest way to do that would be to just turn the seven member board into the eight member board and just make it the the charter board. >> Just point, we can't do that statutoily.
It's set about how it's prescribed specifically in statutes. the the memberships of who can who are we're supposed to be identified to serve on there and the minimum and the maximum of the size of the um AHACK committee is
set in statutes. >> Madam chair. >> Yes sir. Um so generally the approach by staff will be that they will look for opportunities to merge to consolidate and to streamline the various affordable housing efforts that already exist at
the county into one um plan that makes sense that is enumerated in this document. So a plan and a trust fund like a fund that's established as a trust fund
and you're talking about a plan too. So I'm just trying to understand like when you start talking about a plan and a board like a trust fund is a trust fund. So there is an existing trust fund with numerous funding sources in that trust
fund. So, are you proposing looking for additional funding sources to go in the existing trust fund or a different trust fund with a different funding source that both deals with affordable housing? >> We are looking to maximize Lyon County's
eligibility for state and federal funding sources through a streamlined approach at the county um through this language. And so to your uh point about the boards, um I don't have every
answer, but Orange, Broward, Bvard, these counties have, I'm quite sure that they've addressed these issues about citizen oversight and maximum eligibility for state boards. I'm sure that they don't have six affordable housing boards, >> but how does a trust fund ensure like
maximum impact of funding sources? like a trust like if you have additional funding sources you have deliverables on that funding source how would the establishment of a trust fund expand capacity on additional like funding
sources like I'm trying to understand >> I think that there is a positive effect of when any community including ours has an intentional conversation over a set finite period of time and then they all have a vote in
and together have a community commitment, a reaffirmation of our values um for this agency in the future. >> Values in a trust fund is different. Like a trust fund is like money in a fund that people can expend against but
holding values and holding money is different. So I'm trying to understand like are you seeking language? Are you seeking a fund? Are you seeking both? Well, I I'm This will create So, so again, let's go back to the list, y'all.
Staff exists already. They're already doing a lot of this. What this does is it enumerates revenue sources and it enumerates potential expenditures. How what what money is out there and what do we want to spend it on? What I'm saying is that the difference in these two
proposals is that both of them enumerate the revenue sources. One of these proposals says this is the type of thing we want to spend our money on more specifically than the other one. >> But a funding source, Madam Chair, a funding source would dictate how you can
spend the money on certain expenditures. Us having a trust fund would not override federal regulations on what you could use a funding source for spending or a state appropriation for spending. So like the county establishing a trust
fund doesn't take away federal regulations or state statutes on what are allowable costs related to a funding source. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Let's hear some other comments. I'm Oh, sorry.
>> Other comments I haven't >> Go ahead. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. Thank you. I recognize you Madam >> Chair. Stop. Well, I I appreciate the the dialogue between uh the other two members. I mean, that is part of the reason why I will not be voting for the
substitute motion. And I will support option one. When I look at the limited resources of what our county has and what we are doing to address this issue and if we look at the analysis and then we look at uh all of the uh information
from Mr. Lambie in reference to what the county is currently doing. Again, I will not support the substitute motion, but we'll be voting in favor of option one. Thank you, Madam Chair. >> Thank you, Miss Favorvers. >> Um maybe um what uh Chanty just said
clarifies, but I'm confused as to whether or not I'm looking at the two documents that Mr. Hurley uh put forth. Are we being asked to consider one or the other or are we being asked to uh look at
um moving forward with something as a charter amendment that recognizes the need for affordable housing uh specifically? >> No. At this uh stage in the process, you are considering charter amendment
language that would then go to the board of county commissioners for their >> Are we looking specifically at Mr. Hurley's proposal in that regard. >> The motion on the floor is for option two, which is more general language regarding the establishment of a trust fund for affordable housing. Option
three, >> no. So option two. Yeah. So option So there's there's there's there's three options, right? So option one was we were saying, hey, a staff recommended a policy recommendation versus a charter amendment. But per your request, you did ask for charter language. And so what we
did is we prepared and developed option two as language that is what you saw commonly in other communities that have adopted an affordable housing trust fund in their charter. >> And then what we also provide is option three. So option three is member Hurley's um proposal.
>> All right. >> Which is not on the floor at this time. It's being discussed substitute motion for uh yes mr. Lewis. Let me ask staff, are there funds that Mr. Hurley's
identified that we are not drawing down now that we can draw down? >> No, >> we're drawing the dollars that we're drawing down right now are dollars um we are um are primarily our ship dollars that we're um that we receive.
>> Everybody gets shipped. Yeah. >> Thank you. Are there other dollars in his proposal that we can draw down that we should be drawing down that we could put in the current county trust fund?
We constantly look at opportunities to apply for grants when when there is available for affordable housing. What we typically also do is when there was an opportunity to go get some additional dollars through through the um HFA of
bond dollars, we drew down $100 million of bond dollars that's available now to the HFA. Those dollars can't go into a trust fund because it's we we work it through the tr we work it through the HFA, but those are dollars that can address the highest need in our community, which is affordable rental developments here in
Tallahass County. >> Right. Okay. >> And an important distinction also, option three, which is member Hurley's proposal, uh, specifically, as you see on the screen, would obligate future potential uh, sales tax funds. So, those
funds are subject to voter approval. They don't exist yet. Uh, but should they be approved, that's what would be committed as proposed. >> That's the difference primarily. Well, >> and that correct me. I mean, that would
be if the blueprint uh sales tax is re >> reauthorized by the voters, which is another five or six years from now. >> 2040. >> 2040. >> Okay. >> I mean, it would so it' be sort of lingering for five years. Uh Mr. Sturbal. >> Yeah. And um with all the questions on
the floor, I think this is why I I believe the staff did a great job with the um option tool with the language they provided because it leaves it in the purview of the county commission to decide the bells and whistles and the details of it. We just set the structure and allow them to move forward with
that. So we don't have to get into uh where exactly those funds are come from or future funds that we imagine may come into place. And that's why I I made the substitute motion. I liked the idea behind option three, but I don't think we have the the time or the ability in this board to kind of iron that out.
That seems to get into commission duty. So, I would prefer us move with option two where it's strong. It's not as weak as a recommendation. It does create the framework that the county could work in. Um, so that's why that substitute motion is there. >> Yeah. So, it becomes part of the charter. >> Correct.
>> Uh, not just a policy recommendation to the board. >> But we already have a trust fund. Yeah, >> correct. But what they're memorializing in in the charter is what you >> and again >> it would give it permanence.
>> It gives it permanence that it would >> Yeah. >> Correct. >> Never go away. >> I'm just trying to understand. >> It would require a charter amendment to remove it. Correct. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which would be >> But we How long have we had the one we got? >> Since 1992.
>> In or by ordinance. >> In inance in ordinance. but not required by the charter >> by ordinance. Yeah, >> Dr. Robinson, >> before the charter. >> Sorry, Dr. Robinson. >> I had a similar question. We have a trust fund, >> correct? >> Yeah.
>> We're just trying to I'm going use that word codify. It's not really codifying, but we're trying to put this in the charter for the world to see that we have a trust fund.
>> Correct. That's what um when when we again Yeah. So that's what was done in the four other counties um because they also were in the same position where they had trust funds already established. But the idea also though is the fact that you know the thing that we
continue to say is you know currently in our charter we don't have specific issues in there but right going just to answer your question Dr. Robinson, it's codifying the trust. >> My but then my concern is the wording of option two. It says to establish an
affordable housing trust fund >> in the charter. >> Within the charter >> because it doesn't exist right now in the charter. >> I understand. Back to the wording of it in ordinance but not in our charter. It's the wording.
>> Approve the proposed charter amendment for recommendation to the board of county commissioners to establish an affordable housing trust fund. >> Yeah, >> that's that's what I was ask question.
>> It's it would be confusing, right? as opposed to establish as opposed to establish >> place a friendly >> place it in the >> is that a friendly amendment >> in the maker of the motion substitute motion accept that >> accept that
>> to change that language >> I don't know what language you want to use but that's going to be confusing if we already have one >> what are we doing here >> to codify the existing to >> codify probably is not the right word but you know put the legal ease on for
Uhhuh. >> I think either Madam Chair. >> Yeah, sure. >> Either one seems fine, but what I would also recommend because there may be a new program or requirements for programs might change or things like that. So
what's currently in the code and that's in part the beauty of of having it in the code and not in a charter is because it provides that flexibility to you can modify it much more easily than you can with the charter amendment. You got to wait, right? So, so I would put some
language in there that at least gives some discretion uh to modify the existing trust fund that you're codifying in the charter so that it doesn't tie the hands of so basically uh and authorize
the commission to uh implement uh and modify accordingly by ordinance or something like that. I mean, so you have your concept if that's what you want. If you want to codify that there's a trust fund in the charter, but provide
that flexibility so that the board can provide the parameters for what that trust fund looks like in the future so that it can respond and be nimble for future changes. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to include
the existence the uh include the affordable housing trust fund in the charter document an amendment. That's what we're trying to do. We want an amendment that speaks to the fact
that we have a working affordable housing trust fund in Lyon County. Is that what we're That's what we're trying to do and that's what we're trying to say in option two. I want to be clear so I don't vote the wrong way. >> Could you change the language to simply
maintain a a trust fund? I mean by maintain that would mean that would still have the flexibility for the board of county commissioners. >> F is that not included under section five? Madam Chair, >> as opposed to as opposed to establish,
>> but the the point that committee member Robinson brought up is we already have one. So this makes it seem like it's not what's currently in code. And that seems to be the intent is to elevate what currently exists. But again, what I want to make sure we
avoid is that you're not freezing in place forever what currently exists in code. that there needs to be flexibility in the future to modify the trust fund >> to be nimble going forward. >> Not that anyone could do anything to do
away with it, but that it can change as needed, adapt. >> Madam chair, can I can I make a friendly amendment to make sure we have that language so if something changes with funding sources? >> Can you have a language proposal? >> We Yes. a language amendment, whatever
legally it needs to be, so that if something changes, we can still operate in that trust fund and it doesn't freeze the language right now in case we need to change it based on funding source. >> So that's what's reflected in option two. It it's it's broad enough. The actual language is general enough.
However, the charter amendment itself would just memorialize >> required to have said trust fund perpetually. Okay, >> Madam Chair, >> you Mr. Hurley, >> so uh to the I I really appreciate you
raising the issue. Um because look y'all, this this uh at its best can be a pedantic process and I appreciate you all being willing to to endure this. Um the way that Orange County addressed the same
uh why is it on the ballot if it already sort of exists was um I believe they used the words create a permanent that was the word that they used. Um and I would just point to the other counties because I believe three of the four of them had the same kind of language in
question. Um, as far as the issue about um, maintaining flexibility of staff for when revenue sources or expenditure types, these two lists could potentially change over time. I would point you to page 254, which again, this is the page that has um, option to 254. If you look
at subsection 3 E, so this is their revenue sources list. It says other sources as established by ordinance. So they do enumerate ABCD for revenue sources and then they have in there E other sources established by ordinance.
They also have subsection six which is their implementation by ordinance. And so this gives more than enough um flexibility for staff moving forward in the future because it was written by staff. So >> Mr. Pitman, do you have a question?
>> We talked about it. Thank you. >> Okay, Miss Edwards. >> I I just have one question for Mr. Lambmy, I believe in your comments you talked about uh an existing citizen board that would that addresses
affordable housing issues. If there is not a charter amendment, does that board have the authority to recommend to the county those enumerations that Mr. Hurley lays out on page 267? by stat by statues they can
make recommendations to the board that relates to affordable housing and they meet I mean they just met on Monday um and they're actually looking to make some um additional recommendations when it comes to even uh ordinances when it comes to allowing churches to build
affordable housing on their properties and bringing that before the board as an ordinance. And so that they are constantly looking and and meeting to talk about recommendations and so and we bring those to the board for their consideration. >> So if if the charter amendment is
passed, does that um would that still be allowed to happen? Could that board of trustees >> do the same thing that that's in the proposal that's in Mr. Hurley's proposal? >> Well, it would be a different board. It would be a third board.
>> Okay. So, I guess kind of gets back to are we talking about one fund, two fund funds, one board, another committee or another advisory board? Would the existing advisory board go away or be rolled into
the board of trustees under Mr. Hurley's proposal? >> No. >> Okay. So, Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, we would have one trust fund
>> under option three. So, you're talking we're talking about option three, right? Because option two doesn't call for creation of a >> board. Okay. >> Um, member Hurley's does. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, so >> our motion now is just >> option number two.
>> Is option number two. >> I understand. I mean, the county commission could take up some of the ideas that Mr. Hurley's proposed and deal with it to some extent. I mean that's always an option but for us on the on the table now is option two with
the friendly amendment that instead of establish I think that um Mr. Pitman suggested your language was >> codify as opposed to establish. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. Other Mr. Smith
>> does the on option two it just says that we have to establish a trust fund doesn't say we have to fund it >> and if we do have to fund it how is it funded >> so that would ultimately be up to the board of county commissioners on an annual basis which is a >> have to fund it annually if they don't
want to >> if in an instance for example if funding revenue sources are eliminated or just not available um but that's up to their discretion um and that is common across all of the existing trust funds of other
charter counties >> and this trust fund has been in place since 1992. >> So it could change. Yeah, Mr. Haynes. >> Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, uh when I I mentioned earlier about what
our board of county commissioners is doing, I mean, you know, I think most of us have heard that one of the buzzwords now during this season is affordability. So, I I don't believe there's any county commissioner is not aware and that's not top on their list in reference to
affordability. And I know we, you know, perhaps change commissioners from time to time, but I I believe that everyone believes in addressing affordability and and like I said, that takes me back to, you know, what the county commission is
currently doing. And so from the discussion I hear going around the room, Madame Chair, and the confusion, I will go back to, you know, there's always option one. Thank you, Madam Chair. >> Okay. Thank you, Miss Edwards. >> No,
>> I I wanted to uh speak to the thinking behind whether or not any of these proposals um may include a uh board of trustees or a citizens board. And I would like us to all just put aside the
question about whether or not uh how to make this as least duplicative as possible. Um many of us are familiar with the workflow of the community redevelopment agency at the city and um at the CRA what we have is uh the CAC
will be the first um people who review um any proposal and then it'll go to the CRA. It's non-binding but it always helps um proposals when they're supported by the Citizens Advisory Committee. And so I
cannot speak to what the the how that works um with current gap financing proposals at the county, but the intention behind it was that the citizen board of trustees would meet to be the preliminary review by the public of any particular
proposals and then it would go to the full board of the county commission. >> I can speak to that a little bit. Um, so like I mentioned before, so last year the board created affordable housing gap financing program. All proposals go before the HFA. HFA vets those proposals
first. Then they make a recommendation to our board. Again, the HFA seven members kind of similar what you're proposing that are um statutoily and created by ordinance. Also, seven members. Each commissioner has one person that they um appoint to that. And
when a a developer comes to us and say, "Hey, we're looking for money." were like, "Hey, apply through the HFA." And so, and through the HFA, they vet the applications, they review it for fiscal um as well as operational feasibility, and then they make a recommendation, and
those recommendations before come before the board. That's what happened last week. Also, >> thank you. >> There's no further discussion. The substitute motion on the table is for option two uh which has been modified by a friendly
amendment to approve a charter amendment recommendation to the county commissions to codify affordable housing trust fund in the charter. Um if there's no further discussion I'll take a roll call vote on that. >> What was didn't you have a friend something also to that?
>> It was to codify >> No, no, no. Not Dr. Robinson. Madam Secretary, what was your >> I was just asking that if we voted on option two that there would be the ability for the commission to make sure that they could change, you know, as
needed with different funding sources with the trust fund so that this version of the trust fund language that's in the current ordinance doesn't get locked in. >> Yeah, option two does that. >> It does. It does. >> So, I was good. >> Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure. I know she
>> changed the language. I think that was in embracing that. Okay, we'll have a roll call vote then on the substitute motion. >> Linda Edward, >> no. >> Liz Ellis, >> no. >> Anita Favorvers, >> yes. >> Max Hurley,
>> yes. >> Daryl Jones, >> no. >> Howard Kesler, >> no. >> Henry Lewis, >> yes. >> Arty Altway, >> yes. Sean Pitman, >> yes.
>> Ryan Ray, >> yes. >> Tomorrow Robersonson, >> yes. >> Temple Robinson, >> yes. >> William Smith, >> no. >> Bruce Stroble, >> yes. >> Jarrett Terry, >> yes. >> Katrina Tugerson,
>> yes. >> Vice Chair Haynes, >> no. >> And Chair Lley, >> yes. >> Motion passes 12 to six. >> All right. Ch passes 126. Thank you very much. >> Motion for hot coffee.
Look at the business. >> Thank you for your good work. We'll be meeting again on the 19th and again through uh 2:30 if necessary for that meeting. Thank you all. Meetings adjourned. >> Great meeting, Madam Chair. I need to go.