Um, calling to order the um meeting of the Littleton Historical Commission, August 13, 2025. Um, I think we'll start with welcoming our our two new official members, which is great, Elizabeth and Chris.
Welcome. Um, and then as we we have discussed, uh, Chris is going to take over being clerk and he's going to do it with AI. Um, which is very interesting. Um, and in a little while we'll do some
other projects first, but then we'll go back to the minutes from last week and people can talk about them. I sent them out for your review. Um, so I think we'll start with 12 Robinson Road. There's two items. One is
reviewing the last draft of the letter to homeowners. Did Did everyone get a chance to look at those? That letter? Well, it's here. I have copies. Um, do you guys need copies? My printer was what? My printer was giving me a hard
missing properties. I'll give you a little background on this because you're two new members. Rachel, do you No, you have it. Okay. So, briefly, there's lots of details, but um there's a an old structure, an old building at
12 Robinson Road, um from we believe 1750, even though previously they thought it was 16 something, but it's really from 1750. We had an expert come in and do a dendrochronology study and data it um
a couple of years ago, maybe more than that now, um someone in town, a developer who lives here, who's lived here a long time, forever. Um he bought it and he wanted to he wanted to sell
them, renovate it, um and sell it. So because that building was bought with a community preservation funds um they had to keep the historic uh preservation certain historic features
had to be preserved. Um so we worked with the developer to identify and make sure that certain features were preserved and it was a long process. It was a couple of years. It's a house and a barn. Um, and they
finished it, I don't know, a few months ago, and one unit sold and one unit is still owned by the developer. He's renting it out. So, um, there is a preservation restriction on that building, which is a pretty long
legal document that spells out what's being preserved historically. And um we are char this commission is charged legally with enforcing that preservation restriction. So what we wanted so we will have annual
inspections at a minimum. But what we wanted to do up front now was send out a letter to the homeowners to let them to remind them that there is a historic preservation restriction so that they don't go ahead and take out what's supposed to be preserved. Um so that's
what we're reviewing right now. So, the letter is a little different than last time because we thought both units were sold. Turns out I did speak to Joe uh the Joe Catala, the developer, and he said, you know, he confirmed he still owns one of them and he's renting
it out. So, and there's no homeowners association yet. They haven't set it up yet. He said he'll let us know when they do. So, the letter is a little different than it was because of those things. So, I'll give you a minute to take a look at it. Now, since
Joe will continue to own one of the units, this meeting with the with the residents is just one, right? It's a meeting with with the new owner and it would be with Joe because he's an owner. I ran this by Shanti. She's our cons her our her consultant.
She's been historic preservationist for many years and she's been great um working for us with us. Um she I asked her, "Do you think I asked that question, should we even bother with this because there's only one new homeowner." She said, "Well, it's a new relationship with Joe because he's now
renting it out. He's not just the developer. He's the owner and he's renting it out and he as owner, he needs to abide by the preservation restriction. So, it's really for the new owner." But, you know, we can discuss it. If you don't think we should do this, we don't, you know, we don't have
to. We should. Yeah. I think we should do it. I'm not sure that Joe has to. I mean, since we spent a lot of time negotiating this whole thing with Joe anyway, do we really need to have him on the I think he should because he is the new owner. He will probably be part of the
homeowners association and it's a different role for him. So, and if he if the other homeowner has any questions, they might go like it would just be easier to say everything then there's no mixed, you know, like
confusion. Yeah. Mixed messages, right? Where the if the homeowner, if the new homeowner misconr something and then, you know, it's just it's easier to like say it to everyone. Everyone gets a message. I think it's a good thing.
Okay. But it's a good point, right? He should know it pretty well inside and out, but it doesn't. Yeah. Speaking of, we mentioned this at some point in the past,
and we I mean, we weren't 100% happy with the way Joe did everything, but we were in the end, we were reasonably happy with the way it all turned out. And there was some talk of maybe giving him a historic preservation award or something like that.
Yeah, let's get back to that. Let's do the letter first. Oh, I was just thinking it might be the occasion to do it. Let's let's talk about that. Okay. All right. And we have time to talk about that. Um
Okay. Oh, I hate to do this, Linda, but what the last this next to the last sentence you say you hope you enjoy your new home and look forward to collaborating with to preserve their historic character
should be its historic character, Right. Cuz he has I change it from homes to homes. Oh yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, that could happen. Of course, you know. Right. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Otherwise, fine. As far as I'm
concerned, this is fine. Any thoughts? Do you have a copy? Yeah, I read it. Okay. Yeah. No. Any thoughts, changes, revisions, concerns? No. Based on what I know looks good to me. Huh?
Based on what I know, it looks good to me. Rachel. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, um I don't think we need to vote on it. I don't think so. Do we? We could. We could.
Huh. All right. So, I move we approve the letter that Linda wrote to the owners of the uh Robinson Road home. I have a second. Second. All in favor? I. Okay. Just in case we need it.
Once in case we Yeah. So, if you remember, I did and everyone agreed that I'll run it by town council first because it's this is a legal process. So, we want to make sure this is okay. Um, so I'll run it by them first. Okay.
Great. So the second I suppose strictly speaking you don't have to do that but I probably don't but because it's a preservation restriction it's a legal document I just want to make sure not that the letter is but I just want to
that it's okay I'd feel better. Um the second thing is the sign the house sign. Um do you have anything? So I was working on the other one. one. Um, and I'm sorry, which one?
Kimble. Uh, the the Benjamin and Mary Kimble. Yeah, that's the same house. Oh, that's the same one. Oh, okay. Perfect. Yeah. So, I'm I'm almost done. Okay. Yeah. It's just about ready to show I do have two other ones that I can show you. one. We could do it after or whatever,
but um one from my barn which shows the old type of wood that like is sort of already deteriorating and a new one that I just finished. And our sign would look like the new one. Yeah. So, do you want can you show us now? Sure. Is that okay? Yep. Yeah.
Carolyn, what are you anybody? What are your thoughts? We're calling it whatever we're calling it the first one. What's the name of it? This first one is the one from Benjamin and Mary Kimble. It's in the I think Mattress calls it the Baker house.
Yeah, I think the initial one said Baker House. Yeah, but we had a hard time getting back to the Baker. No, I know that. But there's a contradiction with Mattress. I guess we can revise Mattress. Yes. Yes. Okay. Um, so this is your So that's the one that
Yeah, we did it like I don't know 5 years ago or so. And I hold it. Looks good. But you can see you can see the the edges are starting to crack and peel. This is the old one. That's the one that that uh from like four or five years ago. You didn't do this one or you did? No, I did not.
I like this. No, it's great. But if you look at the edges, you start to see a cracking and that's when the water gets in and it starts to peel and starts to really go downhill quickly after that. Okay. What is that made of? So that's made of um I feel like it's
called MDO or something. So, it's like almost like plywood, but very uh paintable plywood, but it just doesn't hold up in in the for the long term. So, the one that I'm making for this house is uh cedar,
like not not plywood. It's like, you know, hardwood. The one that I I just finished is actually PVC. I know you guys don't want that, but you can see the lettering and everything is similar to to what we have there. So, if you So, that's fine. is this that looks bigger to me. Is that correct?
It's a little bit bigger just because of the Totally. Yeah, the the um the cedar one's thicker and it's a little bit smaller in size, but it's the it's generally the same size. It's like maybe like a half inch smaller. Okay. And that's what we asked for was
that size, right? Or Yeah, it's generally it's it's between that one and that one. So, it's just smaller based on what I could get. All right. Yeah. I mean, I like the lettering on that one. Do you? You like the lettering on that?
Nice. You like that, Caroline? What do you think? You like it? Yeah. Thank you, Chris. Yeah, that's good. Not qu Yeah, the whites. Is it Are they going to be the more the cream
or the right way? The the cream one is like the sign enamel that I got and it's I could make it whiter if you want, but it mine. Yeah. Curious. Yeah, but it's got a clear coat. Don't even tell when you look at a mix. It
won't fade or anything like that. Great. Well, thank you, Chris. Yeah, overall it's good to us. Good. Okay. It'll be ready for the next meeting. No problem. No problem. That was good that you showed us those
so we had what it looked like. Yeah. Okay. Um so on Derky I don't have any updates. I asked Bartlett and he said he doesn't have any updates. Um,
just so you guys know, um, the Derky Farmhouse is now owned by the Littleton Affordable Trust. They may not even know where it is. So, yeah. Right. It's Well, they call it Foster Street, but it's kind of doesn't
seem like it's on Foster Street. It's kind It's the one across It's the It's the old house across the street from the railway station. Okay. You know, there's that big development there, but the house that's right in front closest to the railway station is the building we're talking
about. Is the frontage grinds grinds lane? No, I think I mean I think as Linda said, I think the address is actually Foster Street. I thought it was Grimes Lane, but it's not Foster Street.
It is weird because the front door is on Grimes Lane. I see. Is that right? Oh, that is weird. That is really weird. So anyway, the Affordable Housing Trust owns it. They bought it. I don't know when, fairly recently. They're going to put affordable housing units on it. Um,
at at some point sort of initially, we thought that we would do a collaboration with historic preservation on that house. As the affordable housing trust is moving forward with assistance from a housing nonprofit for affordable housing
there, I think it's looking dimmer that we're going to do historic preservation because of cost. So, we'll see. Maybe we can keep the facade. It's all, you know, it's their decision. We understand it's their decision. They have to do what they can
afford. So, you know, it's the doors and closed, but it's not going to be quite what we had hoped probably, but we'll see as things go forward. Are they still talking about selling it or are they Yes. Well, yeah, I don't think they know what they're doing. Yes, they're still talking about selling it. It's unclear
to me now whether the barn will be sold with the house. Unclear to me. Um, so they're still they don't have the RFP in hand. when they do have an RFP, they will share it with us, a draft RFP
for, you know, some company to manage or some nonprofit to manage the affordable, you know, building the affordable housing, all that. Um, the orchard buildings, um, I spoke with Shanti or texted with
Shanti. She's working on the macros form forms or B1 and she's starting to work on the preservation restrictions. So at the orchard the the orchard there's three buildings. There's the main house, there's the upper barn, which is big
brown barn, and then there's a lower barn um which is they're all Yeah, the lower barn's pretty nice looking outside. And we went inside. It was fun to see all the stuff in the all the old machinery and stuff. Um, it turns out that lower bond is actually on mas
already, which I didn't realize, but Shanti pointed that out to me. I checked it. She's right. It's already there. So, that's good. Um, do you know MRIS? Yeah. Do you know what MRI is? MRIS is the Massachusetts
um, what's the cultural resource inventory. Oh, Matt. Oh, Matt Ma. Yes. Cultural resources. Um, information information systems. Something like that. Yeah. Something like that. All right. So, you know what it is. Yeah. So,
we have something like 370 plus or something buildings for Littleton in MRIS. Um, we often use if we want to put some like a preservation restriction or or or
promote preservation of a building, we often say, well, it's in MRI, so it is historically significant. Um, so that's one of the ways that we indicate historical significance. So, um, the barn, the lower barn is already in
Macris. The upper barn needs to be put in MACIS and our consultant Shanti is writing up a form to get it into MRIS. The house, she wrote up a form a few months ago. So that's in Mattress. Now maybe we should step back a minute and
because those of us who are on the commission for a long time are all familiar with all this stuff. You may not be. I'm not sure. Maybe you are, but sort of all this technical kind of stuff. Massachusetts has a system for deciding that houses are significant
that properties structures I think would be the best are historically significant and they have these inventory forms that are filled out by historical commissions at one time. I mean I can remember this when I was
first on a historical commission in another town back in the 70s maybe. uh the historical commissioners used to do this themselves. Now everything it's become a big deal and everybody's much more trained and so on. So all these
these forms are are typically filled out by consultants who are experts in the in the historic preservation field. They're they come out of the Massachusetts Historical Commission and they're sent back when they're filled out to the
Massachusetts Historical Commission, which then uh puts them on which then logs them in and so on and puts them online. And so the online version then is called MAC, the Massachusetts whatever
whatever. Yeah, that's right. school says. Um, and so they're available to anybody to look up and you can look them up in various kind of ways which makes it easy when you're trying to find something to to find these and also indicates the
historical features. And now they're with the exception of a few forms that were filled out in ancient times when amateurs were still doing this. They tend to be quite complete and detailed and very uh precise and and all this.
And some of them are really filled out this 12 Robinson Road because we were interested in doing various things with it. Uh was done in great detail and and if you go and look at that form, I mean it's really very very complete as a few
of the others are. Some of them are very very unc incomplete. Most of them are pretty good at this point because we've had most of them were done have now been done by historic preservation professionals and so they're uh they're
in good shape and you should you know familiarize yourself with this system. I mean, just go to, you know, to the internet and type in Macris and you'll get you'll get this form and then you find the town and this
there's also Macros maps which is actually quite nice. Um, so you can see so like when you go into Macros, it it if you haven't used it before, it's it's not necessarily always intuitive. Um, it has a it they had direct links that I
worked with at that job from the town website. So, I never worked with like like it's it's not like it's it's fine, but you know, you'll you'll get the hang of this. I will say I do kind of prefer Macros maps to be correct. Um cuz you go there
and you pull up the town and then there's blue dots for every house that's on there. So, you can you don't have necessarily have to know what number is there. You can if you know what street it's on and you can kind of know the area and you can see what other houses are there. You can see like,
you know, we we talk a lot about possibly doing a historic district with Foster Street and you can see how many houses on Foster Street are there or like, you know, in a certain neighborhood. So that can influence where we might do a district or something like that. Um, so sometimes it's just easier to kind of like look on
look on maps and you can pull it up and then you can just kind of see, you know, all the blue dots and then there's um there's like red dots, I think, for like monuments. And so there's there are some other categories that they do put in there. So I highly recommend the maps. Thank you.
Um a little it's a little bit easier to use compared to like the macro site itself. But if you want information on one particular property, you probably have to go into the inventory and it pulls it pull it up like it pulls
it up and then you just would click on the the link and then it will take you to and you can see the you can see the picture and you can so it's kind of if you're like you know it's on a street but you don't know the number you can go to the street and then you can kind of click a few of the dots and be like well
which one is it and then it'll show you the picture and it's a little a little bit easier to Okay, thank you. So, you probably know the this is part of the effort, broader effort at the orchard. Um
there there's an agricultural preservation restriction at the orchard. They there's somebody leasing it. He's doing different kinds of work, container farming and preserving some of the some of the trees and he seems to be um
sensitive about the ecology. Um, however, these buildings are not part of the APR. Okay? And that's why we're pursuing preservation restrictions to preserve the buildings so that they can't be demolished.
So, that's that. Um, historic marker plaque updates. Um, guess what? What? I actually have an update. Okay. I finally decided to start getting down now that we have Chris who's going
to be able to do some of these plaques. You mean the signs? House signs. House signs. Okay. I call them plaques. I don't know. Fla signs. Whatever. Uh anyway, so I I just started this, so I haven't got a response yet, but you know, the first
the first one was uh or the first one we had pending is the one from uh the uh the next to our 12 our 12 Robinson Road is 22 Robinson Road, which is uh um
what's their names? Yates. Yates, Jeff Yates, Yates, the Laura and you know whatever name Jeff Yates, you know, he's on the planning board. Uh we had been in touch, you know, ages ago and now we're back. I
mean, I, you know, with the help of Mus and so on. I got all the information. I sent it back to them and suggested a wording for the black, which is the way I usually do it and, you know, suggested a wording for the black and so asked them if they'd be interested. So, so that
should, you know, so should be going along and then I will uh get in touch with the I'm sort of having to find find out, you know, with all of them. I have to figure out what the number is and so on. the uh that house that's across the
street opposite from me on um King Street opposite next to the you know across the street from society is that building that goes way downhill and you know has that lot that goes way down
next to the uh next to the u um whatchamacallit the u masons masons next to the Masons, you know, there's that building there. They had expressed some interest in having a plaque. So, I'm going to get in touch
with them and and see whether they're whether they remain interested and see what we're doing. So, we're going to move along with that as maybe there was one. Anyway, so
now that we have something to do to do the blocks, it makes sense to start pursuing again. And so I will I will go ahead and and uh do and you're happy to do these signs. Happy to do you are okay. I just can't vote on them. What? I just can't vote on
Oh, right. That's right. That's we did discuss that. Right. And you filed your form. Right. Right. Okay. So, in terms of bronze plaques, which um so I I called his stuff house signs and these bronze plaques plaques. But
anyway, the B just so we don't confuse it. So, what we did over the past few months, maybe it's more than a few months now. Um, we looked at there's plaques throughout town, about 20 of them, maybe, maybe, I don't know, um,
bronze plaques and they're on concrete marker, like 3 foot, 4 foot concrete marker, probably 3T concrete markers. Um, some of them were are in bad shape. You can hardly read them. You can't read them. It's And some of them are still in
good shape. Some of them are actually wood. Some of them are bronze um originally. So, we identified the ones that are in bad shape and we decided to replace some of them. So, we've replaced
one so far at the common. Um like what's the what is Oh, that's the um what house? The uh it was the meeting house. The meeting house, right? So, that one's replaced. It looks good. It's on the side of the common as you
you know, next to um next to CVS. So, there's a there's a a new plaque there and it's, you know, finally it was a mess. It was awful looking and now it looks great and it should last forever. The only thing is it doesn't face the
common part. It faces the street which is weird. If we thought of it, maybe we could have had it face, but we didn't. Anyway, um it's okay. Nobody used that. So, you can walk on the street and we'll get it. Um so, we also ordered four more
plaques which have come in. Four I there were six plaques ordered. Well, I start two of them are on hold and I'll tell you why in a minute which we discussed a little bit already. Four of them came in. They look good. Great. Um I gave them to the Department of
Public Works who has agreed to install them for us, which is great. That's very nice of them to do that. Um so they're going to replace these four plaques. Um it's so the ones they're going to replace that we got in are West
Schoolhouse, East Schoolhouse, um Lawrence Tavern, and Warren's Gristill. Barren Crystal. Is that Parley Lumber? That's Everyone refers to that, but it's really It's called the Barren Crystal. Um,
so and did we figure out where that thing is going to go? I wrote I sent out in one of my emails to you guys, let's do a site visit before our August 13th. I didn't hear from anyone. Um, sorry.
So maybe, you know, not all of us have to go. you know, if you don't want to, even if there's two of us though, I I I don't want to make the decision myself. So, if even one person wants to come and see. So, so sorry. The problem with with
this one, I mean, the plaque itself looks bad, but the concrete Do you know where it is? Parley Lumber. Oh, it's on the corner of Warren Street and Road and Mil Road. It's like a It's near 495. That's almost like a Yep.
So it's when they put 495 in, they bisected Mill Road. So they cut it. So there's two middle roads. Yep. I found that out running when I was where am I? I used to run. But the hairpin turn. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I drive by that one. I don't want
to take a left on. Yeah. So I drive by. Yeah. So the plaque itself was bad. So we're replacing the plaque. We have a nice new one. The concrete marker that it's on is in bad shape. It's in bushes. You
can't even see the mark the the concrete marker. It's in the bushes. It also seems to be smaller than any of the other concrete markers we have. And it's in a really bad location in the bushes. So, we we want to order a new concrete marker to put the plaque on and move the
marker somewhere where it's visible. Um, I drove by it recently. I didn't stop, but I thought, you know, that looks like it might be the only spot that makes sense to put it, but I don't want to make that determination. I want other input from at least one other person where we
should put it. So, if you want to, you know, do a site visit together, we could do it. Or if you want to just look at it individually, we can identify where we might want to put it. Now, we will have to ask I believe we have we will probably ask the
water department if we can put it there because they're in charge of that site right now. Oh, yeah. Um I don't think they'll have a problem with it. I hope we don't want to leave it where it is. Um so,
and then we'll we have to get a new uh concrete. Yes. Now, I I will once we decide where we want it, I will talk to the DPW, ask them what they recommend. Maybe we'll ask Middle Sex Materials if they'll donate it or we could pay for it or
maybe DPW has another idea where we could get one. I think Donna wanted a granite markers, which I think are super expensive. I don't know. We can go that route. Um, so what do you think about figuring out
how we going to figure out where we want it? Um, I'll be happy to visit it. I mean, I I could visit it with you if it's sometime when I when I have the time, which these days tends to be most of the time. So,
yeah. All right. And I know you're very busy. Do you want to look at it or what? I mean I I that's the road I live like I know it. Yes, you do. Um so I you can if you guys go and look at it like I'll know you're talking.
Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll take a picture. Are you guys interested? I'll drive by and I can on the next meeting if I hook up to like that that thing I can bring it up on street view and we can sort of see. It should have a pretty recent Okay. Are there any restrictions for this type of thing as far as where it
can go or how far away from a building or the street or anything? That's a good question. I don't know that those necessarily have been developed in town yet. And that's it's it's a good question. I know, but like I feel like whenever we put up like the
uh what's the the one that we did um uh quarantine station usually they just replace like where they've been. So I mean there was one right across the street from where I live. So yeah, I know. Yeah. So, and that one's like a great
one. That was um I think that one just replaced where one had already like So, that that tends to be like if there's a precedent set that one was already there, it stands to reason that we because I don't think we've ever I don't know that I don't know that there's any legislation in the town that says like
it can't be within blah blah blah. Maybe we've just never asked. I'm guessing they were done. You know, originally they were done a long time ago when first one's done most of these. But it's replacing something that's already existing. But we're going to move it a little bit. That's why she's asking us. Right. Right. Right. No, I I get that.
Um but the other thing is that most of them or a lot of them at least are not actually near near buildings the way some of Well, some of them are, I guess.
Yeah. But I don't know that we have like it has to be like a setback of a certain amount. Like I don't know. I don't know that any I don't know that any of us know if there's ever been that. I could ask Jim Dugan just so we check in with somebody to ask that question. I mean, I don't want to open up unnecessary first,
but I don't think they're Well, you probably wouldn't want it too close to the road because then you risk Yes. I think like back of like, you know, if we ask DPW of like what's there, what kind of setback like and that could be taken into consideration of like not
putting it any closer to grow than what the current one is or you know, things like that. But I don't and again this is I think we just we've never crossed this road of like is there language written up somewhere? Maybe it is. Maybe TPW does have something. Sure.
We don't know. I don't think so. Probably not. It's not like we do this all the time. So it's also like these are these very kind of Yeah. Yeah. But I will that's a good question. I will ask DPW and get their input and Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's also like we also don't want
to start paying attention. There's that one that was knocked over non so that so that one I also have uh that one's on hold but I did order it from them it's on hold because I wanted to make sure Oh
wait I know why one that one's on hold because I wanted to get Dan uh to get the Nishoba tribe input on the language I've asked him about three times Dan who's our liaison and I I haven't heard back from them.
So, you think we just go ahead with this language or should I ask them again? I can I can send them a message. Okay. Um I was at the commission meeting and Yeah. they want to get it done. Yeah. They'll just I'll just say if they don't hear it from you in a couple weeks,
they're just going to send it in. Yeah. Because I did ask them I think three times. So, Okay. He said it was a like by this date. We're sending it out on this date. If you don't, so what date should we pick? By your next meeting. Yeah, sure. September 10th, I think, is
our next meeting. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Um, so you know the show, some of the showa Indians live in town now, at least one. Um, so we want we would like their input on the wording because it's older wording that was developed 20 years ago and if they
wanted to say something else, we would like to incorporate that. Um, okay. So you and I Oh, do you guys want to go look at the barley lumber one or are you going to go look and you I can drive by it, too. Okay. All right. So, and you'll come next meeting. You can come with some
sort of visual that we could look at. Okay. All right. See if you can find the exist. Oh. Oh, that's the other one. I'm sorry. I got way laid here. Yes. There was this Nishoba praying Indian town plaque
goes on a marker, concrete marker that was fell down and buried in dirt and brush and no one could find it. So, we thought we might have to order a new marker for that one, but DPW found it and they said they put it up. So,
we should, you know, one of we we need to find it so we can Well, you can see it right when you drive up. It's right right on the point. So tell me exact. It's on. So there's two places where the shower road and hill road meet. It's up by um the Chinese church.
It is. It's right near there across the street. Yeah. Okay. Still New Town. New town road. It's on the corner. New town road. Oh yeah. Yes. Maybe that was my problem. I was looking for Magog and um whatever.
All right. So it's near the Chinese. Okay. The Chinese church. All right. So, it's up. You've seen it. It's up. Okay. Yes. All right. I bet DPW will just tell you to move it back a little bit off the street so the plows don't get
Well, they they're the ones who put it up. Yeah. Oh, so they they'll put it back far enough for Yeah. for their own purposes. Yeah. It's kind of up up a little bit. Yeah. In the uh the parlay. Oh, the parlay. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or right.
Yeah. Sorry. No. Uh New Town and Noa Road. Nintendo's corner was at like Yeah. Yeah. That's what h I was looking for Edgar. That's why that was my problem. Like where is this thing? Okay. All right. So, if you and I want
to go together, we can. Yeah. You know, so give me a ring some. All right. All right. I'm mostly a ring. Me, too. Okay. Um, so, um,
I think it was last meeting, maybe the meeting before Carolyn had brought up, um, possibly applying for a state grant for uh, more additional properties to survey additional historic
properties in town. The deadline was November for a letter of intent and then sometime March or something. Oh, March for the actual. So, in the past we've always missed the deadlines,
but now we have a little notice. So, um this if people want, we can pursue this if we think it's a good idea. I mean, it's always a good idea to survey properties. Um well, one thing is
when Jen Dy finished the last of the surviving things that she did, she recommended actually that we not continue with doing surveys, but that I hate I shouldn't say this,
but that we should start we should really start work on a historic district. Did she say that? Yes, she did. She had a report. We want your input on that topic. The report that she that she wrote when she when she finished the work that she did for us.
It's probably somewhere in our files, but I don't know where we have files. Yeah, I pro we probably have that. I think I have that report. I thought she said something and maybe that's what you're thinking of. Historic district. She said some type of lake properties. Well, there was some discussion about
the the Long Lake area. Um, and as I remember, she's her thoughts on that were that we we try and figure out some way to do that that would not be a traditional, you know, individual house
survey. Now, you folks all know about Long Lake and the Long Lake area. Okay, you do. I mean, I go there every day for swimming these days in the summertime. It's wonderful. Um, but I think she's right. And I mean the idea was that you know there's a mixture
a real hodgepodge of different of different buildings there and you wouldn't think of any one or even grouping of buildings that deserves its own form but in some way or other some kind of I mean at least I think that was
the idea was that some kind of a a you know a survey of the sort of general way that that was developed. and so on. And I think she also suggested that maybe we think about um the um
the whatcham call it the um the development uh on the the hill there. What's it called again? Now you see that's why you be needing younger members. I don't remember on the hills. thing on
uh Baldwin Hill. Baldwin Hill. Yeah. that she just suggested that we think of I knew it was an apple and I kept uh that that that was a sort of development that was a new kind of thing when it came into when somebody decided to
develop that in the you know Carolyn 60s would have been I think yeah 50s and 60s there's a couple of them around town you know that that might be something that we we might want to survey but again in both cases if you know I'm trying to remember them if it's
something that I haven't looked at for many years but I think her idea was that in both of these cases these were important historical neighborhoods development neighborhood service yeah some but it's not it doesn't fit
into the usual categories that the mass you know historical commission forms you know put you into the boxes that they so this is my suggestion I think I can find that report.
Why don't I send it out to everybody so we refresh our memories about what Jen suggested and then we can think about if we want to pursue survey work, we can think about how we want to pursue it and think about a letter of intent if we decide we want to do that.
Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. All right. So, uh, again, for those of you who don't remember her, Jen Dari is somebody who's worked on and off in, uh, you know, for private agencies and for the public. She
was at one point the local director or something at the mass historical commission, a local liaison or something with for mass historical commission liaison with local historical commissions and she also did a lot of
survey work for us before that. Now she's back in the private sector as a private, you know, consultant, but she's very knowledgeable about about, you know, historic preservation in Massachusetts.
And, you know, when she finished doing work for us, you know, we had her we hired her for a couple of occasions, you know, and said, "Okay, you can do 40 properties or something like that." And she she did a whole bunch of them. And then when she finished, she brought up this final report. And I'm trying to,
you know, what I'm saying now is I'm trying to remember what what it was that she says. And I, as I remember, I mean, the things I remember was that she said she did not recommend that we continue to do individual house surveys, but suggested that we we look into doing a,
you know, a historic district. That was something that certainly could be something that the town would would want to do. and also that maybe this was something that she wasn't sure how to do it. I think even she wasn't sure what to do here, but some kind of survey that
would that would be a different sort of thing for the Long Lake District and again for the Baldwin Hill area. I don't know if you know where that is, but you know there's a Baldwin Hill road and its houses leading off, you know, streets leading off of that as it goes up the
the hill there. And then of course the whole Long Lake uh area which was developed in the 20s as a resort you know resort community to and there's still a few I think there's you know as I drive around there there's still a few
of those older building a few old those old buildings left and then there's a whole bunch of new ones that either that has either either added on a lot to those old ones or tore them down and built new ones. The lots are very tiny, so it's hard to squeeze them in, but
they have them if they Okay. So, I will try to find that report. I think I've seen it fairly recently, and I'll send it out to everybody that we can think about if and if and how we would want to pursue that. So, um what
in 2017 2017 she did it. Yes. 2018. Well, the final everything the finals 2018. Yes, it's my I have it right. So, you guys have our final I have it right. Great. Can you send it to to me and
Yeah, that'd be great. Okay. And then I'll send it to everybody. Okay. Well, she could send it. Yeah, you could send it to everybody. That's fine. Okay. So, um really kind of the last thing topic for the evening. Um, but
after that, I'd like to open it up to see if these guys have any questions or thoughts or whatever. But, um, so we've discussed historic districts at many different meetings over the last few years. Um, sometimes we don't
discuss it, sometimes we do discuss it. Um, we don't have a historic district in Littleton. Not, you know, many towns have several historic districts. We have zero. We'd like to have some there's some challenges which um if you're open
to it, we'll talk about some of the challenges and I know you have some experience, right? Oh, I so I worked at um it's very unique in Lexington because there's the historical society when I worked there. There's a historical society, they have historic districts commission and a
historical commission and they all do different overlapping things. Where is this in Lexington? Um that's very confusing. So, so we have that same structure here if we set up a purchase. By law, Massachusetts, you have to have a historical district
commission. So, we would set that, not we, but the town would set that up. So, we would have all those three entities as well here if we were to pursue it. So, some of the issues in town about historic districts is that
there are some really, you know, a lot of nice old historic buildings in town, but they're off they're kind of dispersed throughout town. Foster Street is one area that has really nice old historic homes. So, that's one
possibility. Um, which we'll talk about issues, challenges that have come up more recently about that. Um, so that's one challenge, right? It's sort of dispersed all over. Oh, of course you could follow the example of Somerville, which is which has they have indivi
historic districts are individual properties. Oh, wow. Which is allowed by the state. You can do that. But they have individual property, historic districts, and they have lots and lots of them. And I believe that in Somerville, that's the the situation.
Well, that is one model that if we decided we could follow that because of situation in Littleton, we could do individual ones. It just takes more time, I think, with you know, do each individual building. But so some other issues which these people know more
about than I do is insurance has come up. Did that come up in Lexington homeowners insurance? Not that I'm aware of, but I mean I I'm sure it probably has, but nothing that I've been involved in. Did does someone want to comment on that? Well, it's a it's a complicated issue
because it it doesn't specifically relate to districts. It's well or maybe does relate to districts because there's been a bunch of discussion recently on the uh mass uh historical commission discussion list. Uh remember those old
things discussion lists what they used from when computers first came? They still have them. And the mass historical commission has one and people have raised this question that insurance rates either insurance rates are higher or people are denied
histo denied insurance by some companies if their houses are deemed to be historic. Now there are lots of different ways that they can be deemed historic. So, some people say, "Well, we don't want to have a historic district because then we
won't either won't get insurance or because we'll be our rates will be raised." But my rate was raised without a historic district. No, my wasn't that my rate was raised. It was that one of the companies, the company that we had
insurance with before denied our uh our application the next year because we're in Macris. And of course there the horse is already I mean the the horse is already gone. You can't close the bond door anymore
because we have, as Linda said, we have hundreds of properties in town that are I think that be illegal that insurance companies do that, but I guess it's legal. Insurance companies really can do whatever they want. I mean, they can deny I mean, you know, in some other
places there are all kinds of reasons for denying or I guess the other thing they can do is raise is raise rates very considerably. Now I don't know whether my rate was raised or not when I got the next in you know when I did get insurance but I guess that is an issue
and some people have have mentioned that. So that's an objection to uh and then was there another issue with someone that run somebody else on Foster Street who they got dropped by their insurance as well um
for the same reason. And I mean, everyone seems to have found new coverage, but you know, that's still concerning concerning and it's a process and it's an uncomfortable situation to be in. So, um, that is something to be aware of
that some of the homeowners may like if if we were to pursue Foster Street, which is what we've talked about, um, that that could be a a push back from the residents there. So, we obviously been discussing this for quite a while.
The next steps for getting a historic district is also it doesn't really come from us. Somebody has to go to the select board. They will make a um a working group that will do you know a survey and they'll evaluate it. Um
this is again this is whole topic has been bandied about by us for years now at this point. Um somebody just has to take it this way. And somebody namely me said that they would start pursuing this and I haven't. Well, you you did talk start pursuing it
which is the two of you found this insurance issue. So we kind of thought Yeah, that's one potential like where people may or may not be upset. However, obviously a working group would find maybe more or more positives or more who
knows. So what was your experience working in Lexington with did you work with histo district commission and mostly for my so I'm I'm an archavist uh so I mostly did research people who are this is
interesting because most people that I've interacted with have wanted their house to have the marker or be part of the historic district or whatever it's just kind of a something that they can say look at my house so I worked with people to research their houses in many cases
and use these resources to people were, you know, they wanted to see what their gardens looked like back in the day so that they could recreate them or what did the historic front door look like or something like that. So that was primarily my interaction with um the historical commission, historic
district commission was to do research on houses and resources that if that makes sense. Um so it's interesting. I mean it makes sense sort of with the insurance but that never came up that was it was usually people trying to get the designation like that's not my job
right I think it's a recent development yeah maybe within the past 10 years or so that you know that this has been a problem and and again I had just I happen to know someone who lives on cluster street so I casually mentioned you know what their
take on it would be and that's when they you know they were like well this happened. So like I don't it wasn't necessarily a pro or it was just like this happened. So like yeah, you know that's that's a concern. Um whether or not it would and that was specifically
for this one example. The the company said um oh you have a plaque so you're in historic district and they showed no or not because there are no historic districts in Littleton. Um and the company basically was like it doesn't matter you have a plaque anyway.
So even so it was cited as they had a black effort but I think that it came about because it was like well and their initial was like they were cited as being a historic district even though they're not and they proved it to the the company but the company said like it didn't didn't
matter to them regardless they said no. So I think it was then if they were actually to be in a legitimate historic district would that then make their new you know like would this be like as ripple like everyone just lose their insurance on that road and you know this
whole thing. Well, again, the company, my company said, "You're a historic home because you're in Mattress." And they referenced, they did specifically reference Mattress. Actually, sent me the form. Obviously, I didn't need it, but they, you know, to prove it, they sent it to
me. You see, there was some discussion of this on the mass listerve. Just recently the mass historical commission list serve has this people have raised it being in historic districts have said that they've been either denied
insurance or their insurance rates have gone have gone up and there was various people who said yeah that happened to me too and you know that sort of thing. I mean, actually, I sent in some happened to Yeah. So, it definitely seems to be Is it just because the the houses are
grandfathered in, so there's they're not up to code, or is it what's the basis behind that woman had, and I don't know if it was true or not, but she was saying that a lot of times insurance companies because they replace your house, like if
your house burns down, they're replacing it in kind. So they think that it has to be replaced with 18th century wool. And she said that's not the way. You wouldn't do that obviously. But she said that I don't know if it was just one company or that's what she'd heard that
that's how they figure it out. So they're like well we could never get that done. So they say well we won't. But again that's what they were trying to get across was this is not correct. And they were trying to that conversation kind of petered out. This is our listener. Yeah. Well, I mean,
you know who this question was? Who who said that's that's they don't have to do that. What was our role? Was it? You don't know. Okay. Was it inspection there? Recently, a few weeks ago, you know, a bunch of people contributed to it. Isn't this the typical kind of thing where a bunch of
people contribute to the discussion and then it's sort of you know whether it's like the big box insurance companies like and I don't know if that was ever discussed in the in the online discussion I
do believe that the person I spoke to it was progressive so you know it's it's a bigger like so whether or not like smaller local you know Massachusetts based if they're any different or like it's,
you know, but then obviously it's still going to be more expensive if if it's a like you have an expensive old home that you're going to have to pay a lot to replace thing, you know, like and maintain it and keep it up and then your insurance like it's I do understand the cost factor for a lot of individuals.
So, I think the thing is that this is not really a topic for us to sort out. this is a topic for the group that is selected by the select board to find out and that is the next step but some of us might be on that part of
that who know um but I think we're trying we're we kind of want when we was thinking about Foster Street we're thinking of maybe approaching some people which you did talk to the person you knew and you were
I told a few people and then we got this feedback which kind of we pulled back a little bit from pursuing historic districts because there's this challenge and I don't know what you know well also cuz some of us have been
preoccupied with other things maybe right of course what I'm thinking I don't know one one avenue is to talk to mass historical commission about this and see what input they've had and what they suggest about pursu doing historic
districts given this insurance issue. That's for the working group. I think what you're going to have to do is when the when you go to the select board to create this working group, they're going to look to you guys. Why should we do it? What is it? So, I think you're going to have to have a little background and if if
I think we can give the pros and cons like we would like you because yes, and we can site we can site the report and say look this we got this report done blah blah blah. It's also in the master plan by the way. It's great. We I think we and again it doesn't even it doesn't have to come
from us this group. Yes, they may call upon us say do you have some input but it's the group is not the the historic commission is not the one to bring it to the select board and then yes we may give an opinion that's fine
but doing this research is for the group that is assigned by the select I mean I agree and I don't agree because we as the historical commission would if we decide you know we would like this to happen historic districts so we want to help have it happen instead of fail
again. It failed 30 years ago or something because you needed two you need a 2/3 majority. They got a they got a majority half you know 50% they didn't get 2/3. Um so I think it's valid for us to do some of this research and bring up
some of these issues and try to resolve some of these issues even before there's a commission or before we approach liquid or whoever approaches this. I definitely will see both see it both ways. We've been talking this has been on our agenda for 20 years. I know. I know.
Well, I think too you'd have to decide. Do you get if you guys don't want to do it and you're not behind it, why bother? Right. No, I think that's true. You know, if we don't have the energy and whoever's on that commission, if they if they come to us and we say, "Well, we don't know if we really want to pursue this. We don't want to be
involved." That's going to fall. I think that might all fall apart. I just really want it off the agenda. I'm tired of talking about it. We say the same thing every meeting. Well, the reason I brought up is two letters tonight.
I wanted to also we need to we need to Well, we also need to figure out a way forward. This insurance issue has been a snag. It is it is a topic. It is a pro. It is a con. It is something and again there will be others and that is for the group
to find out the others and make that when they do their research and then they actually bring that to the select board to say yes we should move forward that and put it on the and don't you think they're going to come to this commission and ask our opinions? Yes. And we can still work with the working group but the working group has
to be made. Yeah. Okay. Well, we have a difference of opinion about how to pursue this, but that's okay. All right. And the other thing I'm thinking of doing is calling other towns, like calling Actton and seeing
how they've dealt with this. Has this issue of insurance come up in in Actton or maybe some other towns, and if it has, how do they deal with it? They have tons of historic districts. So, I think I I will do that.
So on that note, um do you guys have any questions or thoughts or about what we do or or what you would like us to do? Yeah, what you would like to do? What you would like to do you have any particular thoughts about what you would
like to do as members of this? My only question for the historic blacks or signs or whatever on the houses. Um, is that typically something that you determine based on surveys that you do? You you kind of reach out to the houses and say, "We think you should have one
and they have to accept or is it something that they come to you and say, "Hey, I want this on my house and I think I have the basis to do so." We The second Okay. The second we at at various times we have sent around a list we've sent
around a letter to all the historic homeowners saying are you're interested you know let us know but you know we don't do that. Gotcha. So your job isn't like seeking out houses. They they requested from you. There's a place on the website which has to be
updated because it's based on our old sign maker who is now deceased and used to charge much less than we're going to be charging now. The homeowners paid for it. The only exception to that that the homeowners initiated is at this point is
12 Robinson Road and that's because it was bought with CPC funds. There's a preservation restriction in place. In the preservation restriction, it says that this commission will be placing a house sign on that house. So, that's one exception.
Any other questions or thoughts or what would you like to do? What would you like the commission to do? Uh my thought was going back to that insurance thing was just yeah I think reaching out to some other uh commissions would probably all have
to have seen this and had experience with it and maybe have their own have gone down that hole a little bit but um that was my thought. Anything else? I have a public input. your public input. I don't know if you've heard, but um
it's 359 King Street. If you're looking at where Badger's funeral home is um right out here, then next to it is a little duplex, little funky duplex. And then the next house to it, which is it was yellow. Now it's kind of a gray. It was 359 King Street. There was a farm in
there recently. Um the gentleman who then lives next door to it had bought that house. That's a historic home. And we've heard that he's going to build condos in the back. In the back. In the well, supposedly in the back, but it hasn't even come to planning board
yet. We haven't heard anything more than this. But the there's a it's a big piece of property, but right behind the house, it it dips down. I mean, it's quite a ways and then it kind of levels and then it goes up, but it's very wet in the back. So, we're trying to figure out. First, we heard four condos. Now, there
might be two. So, how he fits them in there in the wet and in the in the dip. It may not get approved. It may not get approved, but we don't know about the house. Now, he restored his historic home next door. So, I cannot believe that he would tear down
the historic house that's there, but you never know. So, again, I haven't seen anything come through the planning board yet. Um the girls that were in there for farm 359 were leasing it from him and they've been evicted and are going elsewhere. That's how we found out about
it. So just put it on our radar just in case something comes up. 359 359. Okay. I could also let building commissioner know that, you know, keep it on his radar, too. Yeah. Yeah. again. I I just can't
believe that he would tear it down, but you never know. Anything else? It's in the back. It wouldn't I mean, yeah, if it's in If it's in the back, it's not a big deal, but there's not a lot, you know, this has got to put driveways or something in, you know, because it's got the barn,
nice barn attached. And but it may it may be okay, but we'll just have Anything else? [Music] Okay, I do have a motion. We still have a second.
All in favor? We are ajourned. Ajourned and the next meeting. Oh, yeah. Next meeting. Uh we usually meet the second Wednesday of every month. So that's I believe it's September 10th. Is that right? Yeah.
Okay. Is that okay with everyone that that meeting date? Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. Great. Well, thank you. I'm going to adjourn the meeting now.