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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=onrZRjwsh2A

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I can read it. >> What if >> if you want to read it, I'll second it. >> Do you? >> Uh, we won't in a minute. All right. Uh, good afternoon, Littleton. This is an out of um schedule select board meeting, but

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it'll be very, very short this evening. uh we will um be entering into executive session for approximately uh 20 minutes and we will come out at 6:30 and finish up the rest of the agenda. Um so the the board will now consider entering executive session pursuant to master

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general law chapter 30 alpha section 21 alpha 2 to conduct contract negotiations with non-union personnel specifically the police chief and the town administrator. I call for a motion. >> So moved. >> I have to call for the motion.

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Okay. Sorry. Yep. Yep. >> We good? >> Yes. Second. >> Good. >> No, we need a motion now. >> You want it, Karen? >> Oh, no. It doesn't matter either way. >> I move that the select board vote to enter into executive session pursuant to maternal law chapter 38A section 21A2 to conduct contract negotiations with

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non-union personnel, specifically specifically the police chief and town administrator. >> Second. >> Move by Chuck. Second by Karen. All those in favor? I. We'll see you in about 20 minutes. Oh, excuse me. Roll call vote. Karen. >> Karen. I. >> Chuck. >> Chuck. and Gary's I as well. Thank you,

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Littleton. See you in a minute. >> Congratulations. >> Karen say wait for a >> who is uh on the policy committee from this election. >> Mark, >> it's not me. I think it's Mark. >> I think it's Mark.

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>> I'm an alternate. Maybe an alternate. >> Yeah, it's Mark. >> Just mark two. >> I think we have one of us as the champion. I think >> and I got

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>> I can I don't want to. Are you looking for emails? We have these meetings or what? [laughter] >> Um, I'd like to get the policy group together. We can wait. >> Okay. Capital is up to

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>> welcome back uh Littleton. I going to start the evening with the pledge of allegiance if you would also if you are able. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation

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under God, indivisible, with liberty, justice for all. For all. >> All right. Good evening. Just a very quick agenda. We are It's a um out of cycle select board meeting, a joint meeting with the finance committee. Uh we're going to receive a presentation um

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from our new police chief we'll be talking about in a second. And >> that's how you feel if you feel comfortable. Um, we're also going to uh vote to um, let's see, approve the employment agreement between the town of Littleton and our new police chief, Douglas

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Landry. So, I would like to um, probably we did meet in executive session, discuss this, and we are I think we're ready to have a vote on >> move the [clears throat] select board approve the Oh, wrong one. Move select board vote to approve the contract for Chief Douglas

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Landry effective today, August 3rd, 2026. >> Second. >> Moved by Chuck, second by Karen. All those in favor? >> I I >> And I know the rest of the board is an I as well. So, >> thank you so much. >> Congratulations. Thank you. [applause] >> Thank you. Thank you.

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>> Thank you, sir. You >> Thank you so much. Appreciate you. We all saw each other in the hallway. [laughter] So, so much appreciate it. >> Um, and as you know, we'll have um

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guess Deputy Chief Patterson now on until September 1st working kind of uh by your side any any handing off things to you and getting uh as he gets ready for retirement and transitioning. So, um very exciting times. Uh,

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all right. That was good news. Now, >> do the waiver. >> Yeah, let's do the waiver. So, in front of us, we have um a request, a waiver request >> to consider um waivers cons uh

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concerning earned acred vacation leave um as we closed out fiscal year 2026. fee. >> Move [snorts] the select vote to approve the waiverss concerning the acred vacation leave for town administrator James Dugen with the condition that vacation be used by the end of fiscal

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year 2027. >> Second move by Chuck, second by Karen. All those in favor? I. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Excuse me. >> I was just saying Jim said thank you. Oh, you're welcome. >> All right. Now, we're here

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on the side of um our chief uh promotion uh in the awarding the contract and I wanted to thank Michelle as well in the back of the room, our HR director. She was pivotal in making this happen and finance always um getting through that bear is always difficult as well. So,

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thank you all and any anyone else that participated in the process. So, um all right. So this evening we're here to discuss right out of the gate uh you have a a presentation uh we're going to look at a reorganization proposal of the

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Littleton Police Department. I I know you've been on board a while. You have a lot of thoughts probably percolated in your head over the years. So this is your I appreciate that. I I just turned around and looked at this camera that was on me. You got to talk to Mark. It's right on my bald squad. [laughter] Go

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stand. But uh no, I appreciate it and I and respectfully if you don't mind I'll stand just feel more comfortable talking. But uh I I truly appreciate this team that that's sitting in front of you as well cuz I I feel like the support that they've given me in in this

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presentation and then just through this whole process of uh of the chief um becoming the chief Michelle and the whole board is has been amazing. So thank you today and thank you all for being here. Um and thank you all for coming in on off week. I really

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appreciate it. I know uh this is not a normal ask. Uh I definitely considered that uh coming at you tonight, coming requesting you to be here with me tonight um outside of the budget cycle to to kind of do this this uh transition or you know restructuring. Um but I

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think there's a a moment here that I want to speak to that I'm trying to harness and if you could just hear this presentation, I appreciate it. And then obviously I'm 100% on board uh with you all moving ahead with whatever is makes the most sense for the town. Um I'm here

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with my department in mind obviously. Um like that was just mentioned I have been on the department for how long 13 years now in Littleton. Um but over that time I've seen the department change. I was the 13th officer and we were a full staff when I

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got here and now we're at 24. So just in that in that short period, it feels like uh we've we've grown a lot and uh that's a that's a kudos to a lot of people that have done a lot of hard work that are on this board and then were previously on this board and working with the the past chiefs, you know, Kelly King and Pinard

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that uh cuz they they had that big picture of of what was happening in in the world with policing and Littleton. So I appreciate you all. So thank you for being here tonight. And yes, so what I'm trying to do with my promotion, obviously we have

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other retirements. So I'm replacing Chief Bernard retired in May. Um and we had that process as we just discussed. Uh Deputy Chief Patterson is set to retire September 1st. Uh that's the date that he's given the town. Um so we have no doubt that that's not going to

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happen. Um we're excited. he's looking to stay on as a reserve officer in in another capacity, but that opens up our deputy chief position. With my promotion to chief, uh we vacated the lieutenant's position. The lieutenant's position is

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pretty new. Uh I was in that role for about 3 years. Before that, we had not had a lieutenant uh for about 15 years or yeah, around 15 years where previously we had a lieutenant and then a chief. And that period years ago um was a transition where we took the

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lieutenant's position, we turned into a deputy chief and we vacated the lieutenant for that many years since then. Um Chief Bernard saw a few years ago the the need for a lieutenant and what they could provide for the department, for the town. Um so he brought that position back. We had the

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process. Um very grateful that I came out as being chosen to be your town's lieutenant. I spent three years in the role. I have an intimate uh knowledge of what that takes, what that looks like, what that role encompasses. Um I'm going to speak to that and then I'm later in

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this I'm going to speak to what I think the future looks like for our lieutenants as well. Um so we held those promotional interview boards last week and in the interest of time because we knew um we wanted to harness the knowledge that Chief Patterson or Deputy

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Chief Patterson has. So we wanted to get a succession plan in place to get a deputy pit so they can shadow each other or the new deputy can shadow and get that you know institutional knowledge internal knowledge while Jeff is still with us on a full-time basis. So that

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was one reason and then obviously the lieutenant spot has been open um with me being promoted. So in the interest of getting one board in there we posted them the same day and we essentially said if you want to be deputy let us know. If you want to be lieutenant let us know. If you want to be both, please

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let us know. If like if you don't get deputy chief, but you'd love to be lieutenant, we appreciate you. Please let us know and we'll go for that. Or we have a couple candidates that just wanted to be lieutenant. They they knew in my career right now, I want to be lieutenant. This is what I'm going for. This is what I can appreciate that as

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well. Well, that board happened. We had three police chiefs from the area. um select chair Gary Wilson and uh they had their HR director uh Vibr were on the board and we did the panel and we had our top candidates come out. So we've

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since uh have announced a new deputy chief and we've announced the person who we chose as essentially the primary lieutenant that's going to get a spot um because they they taught this this promotional process. um with that from

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that process and we knew this going into it, we have several other very capable lieutenants or potential lieutenants um out of that board and that was the feedback that we got from these chiefs that sat on that board. Um and I'll speak to that again a little bit further. But building up into this,

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Chief Pinard as I kind of worked with him, I shadowed him over the years. It was both of our vision that to have a second second lieutenant was uh was constantly being talked about cuz we saw the importance of it and we didn't really know what that looked like. Um

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was it, you know, get rid of the deputy chief position and have two lieutenants or do this or do that? Like how could we organize to do things? And obviously we we didn't want to get rid of the deputy. We think that's so important for the chief, the chief's office and that role has is is so important for the department. Um and then so now we have

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to look at can we fund and can we finance a second lieutenant. Um and that's what we're going to hear to talk about tonight. And then ultimately we're going to have to hire two people um down the road to replace these retirees. Uh next slide please. So our full-time sworn is 24.

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I'm not asking for another position. I don't want to be at 25. If you recall, I helped um Chief Bernard present the budget last season. Um we're we're over at LPD at our station and we kind of put, you know, in in your ear like we have a personnel plan, like a 5-year

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personnel plan. And what that looked like was four patrol officers and a civilian employee, whether that's part-time or full-time, someone who help with records and things. So, we have an like in our vision, in our 5-year plan, and our strategic plan, we understand that there's some growth for the

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department. So we may like yes understanding the budget and having uh if there's a deficit we're going to be sensitive to all that and work with you but we do have a understanding that Littleton is growing right and we want to keep up with it. We we don't want to fall behind and we don't want to get too

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far back that our staffing levels aren't going to be effective to to police our town. Um so that four personnel down the road not in this scenario. In this scenario, what I'm going to present to you is another lieutenant coming out of the staff that we currently have and um

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having a net zero for the for new positions added. Um and it's going to stay flat. The special kid. Okay, next slide, please. All right. We're looking to fund this with our current budget. Um how is it going to stay vacant? Is that

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last slide? There was a piece on that for now and not a permanent thing, but my vision for this and the the reorganization is to the the lieutenant that we did pick um by all accounts did the best in the

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process and we're super proud of him and happy for him. He's coming from the detectives position. So, he's a full-time detective for us. We call our detectives special services. So, we have like the detective division. We used to call them criminal intelligence. Essentially, they're on a side of the

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building where they're separate from patrol. So, patrol covers our roads. They have sergeants. They have patrol officers. They're the one out going to daily calls and and answering calls and stopping cars and doing things. The detectives are doing school resources functions. Uh the school resource

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officers and investigative functions of the department. Like all these beanies we've had in town, they're the ones that are spearheading those things. Any fraud cases, they spearhead those. Traditionally, for years, our our detective division was a detective

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sergeant and a detective SRO. So, that person had two roles. They were the school resource officer and they also took on investigations. You're going to hear my presentation of how I want to effectively staff our and what I think how the organization best

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helps Littleton. My belief is that Matt Pernard, he put a lot of emphasis on the detectives division, which he should have at the time. It was important, and there's a few things that came with that. Um, the investigations there were important. And then also what we had was

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a great opportunity for one of our for our detective sergeant. Um, super capable police officer, super intelligent on his own. he was able to go out and he was able to get a um a partnership with the DEA. So, a task

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force position. So, for three years, for the last three years, he's been as a task force member for the DEA. So, he works for Littleton police. He's funded by Littleton police, but we assign him to the DEA. He has a DEA office. He has DEA equipment, and he works on DEA

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investigations. Kudos to him. his he Matt knew we're kind of a small department. Chief Bernard knew kind of small department that we couldn't totally lose a person, especially his supervisor in detectives. So, he pretty much put in double the work and he was doing the DEA and

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supervising the unit as much as he could. What that looked like was coming in when he could, communicating with his staff and all those things. Um, and in the meantime, we also got another SRO. The school has helped us fund a second SRO. We call that a patrol SRO. So, it's not a detective SRO, it's a patrol SRO.

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That person is now in special services. So, we went from having two people in special services all the way up to, excuse me, and we also had one more. We had the K-9 officer was in special services as well. And the reason for that was the K9 officer has a lot of training involved with it. And they're

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they're constantly at trainings or out of town and a way for us to save overtime to save on staffing issues where we have to fill his shift if he's out. He was able to go to special services and now he didn't count towards staffing. Since Matt Bernard has left, that officer, the K9 officer, has been

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promoted to sergeant. So now he's back in patrol. The DEA sergeant has come back to Littleton. So now we've got that person back in patrol. So our numbers where we were essentially in patrol down two people, we or in special services, we're bumped back up. We've got that sergeant that's now in patrol. Our

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detective unit is smaller. Um but they're still super capable. So my ask is eventually if this gets approved to delay hiring the detective spot from the patrol officers, take a deeper dive at the budget and see

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what this looks like and and maybe down the road we're going to get back. And if I can get that 25th person, you know, through conversations with you all, then we'll get that position back. I think we can effectively run the police department and police the town and public safety with just um the three

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officers that would be in there, the detective sergeant, the detective SRO, and the patrol SRO would be in special services. They would be handling investigations. They would be backing up patrol on all that type of activity. Um and then we're going to augment patrol. And I'm going to tell you why. Um

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funding, how we can fund it. So Robin put a lot of work in this with me today uh and over the last couple days. Um, my position is coming in less than Chief Bernard's was budgeted for. The deputy chief position that we're going to

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promote into is coming in less than Jeff Patterson's deputy chief outgoing. The lieutenant position is less than I was making. And we and I think you have those numbers in front of you, Robin. Did they get that sheet? >> What I'm speaking to is the one with the highlight on the top here. So the gray

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area is the budgeted for these positions currently and then right below them you'll see the FY27 that we project for the payouts for these new positions. And then we have a cost avoidance there. And we also looked at we had some other

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staffing things happen where we had a we had a maintenance professional uh Bill Cole if you're all Bill Cole was a staple in town hall. He was a um a great employee for Littleton for many years. He did the maintenance for all of town and part of that was the police

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department. He had since retired and that was taken over by George and Eric. Um but Matt Pinard saw the the value in Bill Cole and we were able to get a budget to to fund him part-time. Bill Cole has since retired uh altogether. Um

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we're we're excited for him. We're happy for him, but he's no longer going to be taking that position. So, we see uh some finances coming back to us for that position. And we're not we've already talked with the town administrator. We've already talked with the maintenance division here. We're not going to backfill that position that that that money that was going to Bill

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Cole. And that was about $12,000 that we had budgeted. So, we're we're retaining that 12,000. We're we're gaining these cost avoidance in the current budget. Uh can we go to the next slide, please? Um, so ultimately, if you see on the sheets, what we came up with was

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with all the spending that I want to do for these new for these new positions, meaning really the the the three positions that were there and then now creating this um second lieutenant, we're within the budget with about

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13,500 to spare. So, what was that term we had earlier? That we're we're working within our budget, right? Um above that we see when we did the math we have a if and because we we project ahead right we gave you some numbers

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where we want to look at FY28 FY29 are we going to be able to fund this long term and part of our budget's expenditure for FY27 is a payout for an employee that's retiring the deputy chief um he's worked

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here a long time he has uh contractually agreements that he's going to have pay to him. So if we considered his payout and the other cost savings that we have, we're looking at about $43,000 that we think we're still within our budget and

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we have that as our buffer here, right? So we $43,000 um if if that 43 beyond the 123 including the 12 43 including the 12. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes, sir. Um,

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so that's what we see there and and then that's what we use to consider step raises over the years, cola raises over the years. Um, as if as as we cost this out, you know, even these positions, I appreciate my salary greatly. So, and

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my contract. Thank you so much. But my what Matt Pinard's outgoing um we're still under in year three of my contract, right? So what because he's he was an 8-year chief. I understand that he was an he was a you know a 10ear chief here and I came in a little bit lower to be expected, right? But with

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all these positions we're seeing like even over the 3 years, we're still in that cost avoidance. Um so we want this to be sustained, right? And we don't want to we don't want to tax the town and we don't want to put a burden on the town long long term. Now to speak to the why. Right.

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>> Before we get to the why, if I could, Chief, um >> the numbers on the >> the two next fiscal years. Um what were you basing it on finally? [laughter] Were you we going with the 3% COLA 2%

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CO? I mean, what was the >> just this you're looking at the straight grid that we have right now? Cuz I don't know what that complass grid is going to look like. Okay. >> So, I can't give you those numbers. >> Okay. We know it's not going to be higher than this. >> I can tell you that. These two boards

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will tell you it's not. >> So, um the 15 is the lieutenant, correct? Grade 15 two and a half. >> Okay. And then the then the >> 17 would have been a three. >> Okay. >> Step increase. And then the the cost of

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living was based on 2 and a half%. >> Based on what other town? >> There's no coal. >> There's no coal in this. >> There's no coal in this. >> Yeah. >> And I I'll bring this to your attention too. We were going back and forth because I didn't know the whole scope of who was moving where. >> Um my bad is that um the the chief

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section of those should have said masters. Those are all calculated at masters for 28 29 and 30 excuse me 27 28 29. And then the deputy I corrected the first one is at 25% but the others I had

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done at 20. So those numbers are are going to be a little higher cuz the Quinn for the deputies 31288 and 3228 for the next >> because those would be master's degrees >> master's degrees we thank you

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>> so that's my mistake I apologize >> and excuse me from from the the gray budget that we approved and >> those are existing contracts that we have >> right I understand that to the next

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chief, deputy and lieutenant. Quinn bill goes up $55,000 for the town. >> Why up that much? Goes from 44 to 96,000.

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>> They were full quinn as of June 30th of this calendar year. Well, but full but we budgeted for FY27 >> at full coin full positions. >> So why did there's a disconnect for 50 56,000 if we

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if we budgeted full Quinn and FY27 in the gray blocks >> we were we were at half Quinn in the gray box. >> We were at half Quinn in the gray box. >> Yeah. in >> the chief and the deputy chief >> these are >> in the current contracts didn't have

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quint they had half they 12 and a half% >> right but to Fred's point that so if the the gray is half quinn >> correct >> the one right below it which is still the same fiscal year why is that full quinn >> is it full quinn >> these numbers are full quinn for time we

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we budgeted for half quinn >> how do we get to whole Quinn. That's a $56,000. >> I think you're you're looking at you didn't budget for Quinn. You budgeted for a salary. I I don't want you to get caught up in the Quinn. He's putting these numbers in, but that's not what we don't >> That's a separate line.

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>> No, but what we're saying is so now >> it's in the budget. >> Yeah. >> At at half 27. >> Okay. >> Correct. >> I don't I'm not I think I think the budget I that's what where my head was. We did half quinn for 27.

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>> They're in the budget according to the contracts that were signed >> for 27 >> for the gray >> at half quinn. So now we're paying full quinn with the new contract. >> Correct. And the unions as well.

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>> But it's the same year. >> It's the same year. So what happened? >> The contracts for the contracts for the chief and the deputy chief that was mid year. they still had time left on their contracts at at this Quinn at the half

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Quinn. So, because Matt left early and um prior to this FY27, um and the the full Quinn is triggered as

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of June 30th, but these reflect their previous contracts, which was half Quinn. That's why that is there. >> I'm trying to figure out. I'm confus Okay. I'm I'm confused. >> I know what you're I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is the new

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positions are all at full Quinn. >> Yeah. And if if that's the way it has to be, but if we were at half Quinn, >> I guess I I'd explain it this way. You would a sergeant and you might get into

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that a little bit. Um you know, they have a different step system obviously in the police department for all their union employees. So, a step four sergeant um making full quinn there would never you would never want to be a lieutenant if

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the lieutenant wasn't making full quinn. You'd potentially make be making less. So, you got to be >> All I'm saying is >> we're being told we're covering is position shifts and the magic the numbers all come out

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>> in 27. Yes. But the numbers that were presented 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago to us says is we're paying $52,000 more for Quinn for the same positions

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and >> right >> in the but the gray area reflects their old contracts. That's where the half Quinn is. That's why that is sitting there as the as the lieutenant and the deputy and the

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previous chief that was if they were still here they would be getting >> right they' be getting >> they would still be at half credit >> through this fiscal year. Yes. Senator, >> if I'm going by these numbers, get to Fred's point,

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>> this has you getting 4,000 uh $14,000 as Quinn >> as a lieutenant as a as a >> lieutenant. >> So now, >> but now I signed my chief's contract >> and you So the the contract changed.

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>> Yeah. >> So you're getting full Quinn >> a year earlier than >> Yes. No, no, no. They're getting it. >> They got it as of June 30 in their contract. >> So, it's in their It's They have it

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right now. >> That's correct. >> Are they getting paid out in 2017? Full Quinn? >> No. >> No. >> Yes. >> Their full Quinn started June 30th. >> Starts next year.

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>> Listen. My apologies. >> Yes, they're getting paid full quinn because they're going to be in the middle of the contract. 28 >> 28 >> at the end of it's in this contract, but they're not getting it till the end of the contract. But it's in the contract. Yes. Correct. [clears throat] >> So yes, part of chief's negotiation was

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to get full Quinn in this contract. That's what you're asking >> for this year. >> Correct. >> Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. >> So you're expecting the same for the deputy. >> Correct. Because >> you're going to promote these people. Why? >> Yeah. They're all going to be getting full quint. You can't say, "We're going

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to bring you in at X at half Quinn." Why would I do that? I'm I'm at full Quinn. I'm going to be at full Quinn here in another 10 months. There's no way you would ever have anyone promote. So, you have to go. It ought to be all or nothing. And you

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know, I guess I can explain as far as the fairness part of it goes. I will tell you I looked at every chief contract touching Littleton and every chief contract of similar size as Littleton and every single one of those getting full quit. So it's we're not

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talking it's some weird formula that we're >> to your point if we went outside if we went outside and didn't hire Chief >> Landry >> would be paying folks for whomever we brought in would be >> so I think >> the other thing with with this sheet

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chief >> is on the lieutenant side this is one lieutenant not two lieutenants >> correct >> okay so the second lieutenant you could add another 135,000 to that delta there basically >> is that

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>> it's all factored into the 27 numbers. >> Yeah, that we factored that in to those numbers I gave you the 13,000 buffer. >> We factor it into Yes. into that >> using that scale. >> Um because again we're not adding >> 25 people. We're not bringing

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>> between the detective and hotel. Okay. And yeah, it's that's okay. Exact then that's >> 30 grand, 25 grand or something around there. >> If if I may through the chair, there is one. So if you look at the gray area with the deputy deputy chief Patterson,

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the education Quinn reflects the associates degree. >> Mhm. >> The new deputy coming in in the white right below that reflects a master's degree. >> Okay. >> I'm fine with that. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Oh, no. I just >> Thank you.

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>> You know, it's just the >> you know the Quinn is jumping helping us 50 grand. >> Our officers, you know, it's nice that >> it wasn't it wasn't budgeted that way. Certainly, >> now it's showing up that way. >> Oh, yeah. Okay. >> So, just wait.

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>> So, where that flattens is next year instantly flattens out. >> Yeah. >> Right. Cuz everybody steps and then it flattens. >> Right. Everybody >> you pay it forever. >> Yeah. >> Right. Right. Okay. So, looks like the full Quinn is happening one year early.

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>> Yeah, two because hiring. >> I don't even like to use that. >> It's jumping it forward. It's jumping 50. >> Your lieutenant. I don't want to say that the chief is but we're using it part of this data because >> you're still saving money at the end of

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the day off the chief's contract. No matter how you look at it, these numbers, the bottom number doesn't change. >> Oh, we're right. >> Trust me, we'll spend it. >> Yeah. Okay. >> No, but I'm trying to get to um I don't know where I was going with this. The

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the Quinn. Yes. Putting the Quinn as part of the deputy and the lieutenant is a key part of being able to we we would run into a disastrous situation because remember we've moved the lieutenant and the deputy now onto the compensation a tables.

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>> They're on the tables now with everybody else. That was a big deal getting them off of contracts. Um, so now we we [clears throat] have um a situation where, like I said, we lined up the police chiefs or the police contract with these new positions.

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The only way you could do it was to give them full qu so now if we if we had a lieutenant in this seat and it wasn't uh Landry, Chief Landry, we would have we wouldn't have to worry about this till next year. You're right. Cuz Right.

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>> Right. because then at that point you would go full Quinn. That's just not the case. It's not what we're dealing with right now. We have sergeants that are going to be getting full quinn coming into a position, a lieutenant position that we could make up the cell. They'd be off the scale,

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>> right? They'd be 15 step 10 to give them any type of a raise from being a sergeant to step whatever. >> Does that make sense? >> Is the rest of the staff also getting the full Quinn this year or is it going to be next? June 30th, >> June 20. >> They don't get paid out till next year's

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budget. >> That's when their contract is up. That's when their contract is up. >> They don't get they don't in this fiscal year, they're not getting paid full. >> Okay. >> July 1st, they get paid. Next year's budget.

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>> But these people aren't getting paid this year. >> A year early. >> A year early. >> Oh, yeah. No, it's fine. I mean, if I was take if you were to take that out, you wouldn't have you wouldn't have a lieutenant and a deputy. >> Okay. >> The salary, like I I told you, the the

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math does not work. >> There's a concern for people coming up. >> I'm sorry, Dad. >> Yeah, you're fine. >> The salary alone you're saying wasn't worth somebody jumping from detective to, >> right? we would have to move them up to

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maybe another grade higher grades to which >> eventually happens anyway but >> okay >> this is one of the situations I think where contract positions um especially outpace

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a a compensation table or a compensation study right so that's why we >> um and this is a very unique situation where little just has never been a full Quinn community. >> Mhm. >> This that was a huge contract for them last year or two years ago now, right? I

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guess. So, yeah. >> Um >> a little bit more on the money. I think um just so you're aware, the the lieutenants and the deputy chief and myself, we we can't make overtime. >> So, we're salary employees. So, we're

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not drawing from that overtime budget. Um, so that's, you know, one I'm going to be able to staff effectively, I think, for a few reasons, which I'm going to speak to now. We're going to we're going to see a great drop in overtime in our patrol staff for other

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reasons. Um, but then also now we've got three people um or four now that are outside of that budget. And I I think we're going to see a savings or just a cost avoidance of there because of just some things to speak to. Um, if there's anything else on the money side, we can

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connect it. Or if I could just finish this and we could have like a a final thoughts. I don't want to I'm sensitive to your time. >> That's fine. That was the one thing that just jumped out out of me. That's >> No, I appreciate it. >> Um, [snorts] >> all right. So, the the why. No. And

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again, I thank you guys. Um, this conversation started a long time ago. We all know Littleton is is growing um rapidly. Uh like I said, I was the 13th officer just 10 years ago and now we're at 24. We've got our projection. Um but

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what we do see like nationally in policing is a lot of retirements. Um and that's what we've seen here in Littleton. We've had retirements. We've had people leave policing uh to just go do other things in their they're still young enough that they can start a new profession. Um so what we're seeing here

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in Littleton is we have a very young police force. Um, we've got, uh, the last couple officers that we've hired, we've had to send them all to the academy. So, what we get is someone who's very green, uh, and they need a lot of development. They need a lot of

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supervision. Um, luckily, we go out of our way to hire the very best here in Littleton. We have great vetting and we hire very smart humans. Um, so we've been very lucky, right? They they come in, they do a good job right away, but with that, we're almost just like we're good until our next emergency. So what

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what what this does for me it just gives a lot of oversight a lot more oversight than we have we have like for instance like right now in Lon and this is we have right now in our in our town we've got uh the the OIC the officer in charge

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right now has been on the job for a year and 9 months. He's working with two people that haven't been on the job for a year and they've got a trainee that's been here for 3 weeks. So in town right now in charge of all the policing activity in town, none of them have been here for 2 years, right?

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And and for me I'm like ah like I I just it's sometimes it's not like they do a good job. We get through this. We do a great job. We've done this for a lot of years. But part of our contract has been in our staffing levels cuz we're still a small department at heart, right? We but we've grown so much. We're getting to the point where we need to start

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catching up where we have like trained supervision on every single shift. is just the liability, the risk mitigation, the things that we're worried about. Like, we're only good until our next best emergency. Yes, we've been good because we hire the very best. We have smart humans. We have good supervisors that they can call, but you can't always

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call someone in policing, right? It when there's a critical thing going on, you need someone there who's got experience, who has training, right? As much as we we send our patrolman to OIC trainings like succession planning and developing all levels, that that's part of my plan. That's part of our our past plans. We

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have that. But me to be a be a chief and answer in that that critical incident that comes and and says, "This is what you were staffing. Do you think it was adequate?" Sometimes that's hard for me. And I don't think it's fair. So what I'm going to get here, I think, is a dayshift lieutenant and an evening shift

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lieutenant that are there 10 days or 5 days a week. They have coverage. So now, cuz when we have a sergeant take the day off, we don't make another sergeant come in. We don't have the staffing for it. We have four sergeants in patrol. If we ordered them in every single time one of their partners took a day off, they

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would just be like crazy tax and we just couldn't handle it. So what we do is we have an OIC. The OIC is just the long the one that's been there the longest. Whoever whatever doesn't matter how much training they have, whatever, whoever has been is the most senior person on the shift, they're now in charge of

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every policy, every law for the town. And again, knock on wood, we do a great job, but I think we can have a little bit more mitigation of risk by having some trained supervision there. So, I I would love to see us get to a point where we're a 35man department and we

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backfill sergeants every shift and we have a lieutenant, but I'm I'm a realist, too, and I I see the budget coming down the road. And to not put another sergeant on right now, um, and to get these lieutenants now, I've got them working conjunction. I've got one Monday through Friday on the dayshift.

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I've got one Monday through Friday on the evening shift. Our two busiest shifts and then the overnight shift. We just kind of keep doing what we've been doing and we do a good job with it. We have a sergeant on the overnight shift. We have patrolman on the overnight shift and we just kind of the the lieutenants and me we're on call. That's how it

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works and that's where we're going to stick. It's been working. Um but to speak to that, so we've got young officers. Uh nothing against them. They just don't have the experience. They don't they they've got the training but they're developing as they go. um our sergeants. Admittedly, when I made the

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lieutenant position, a lot of what I was doing was succession planning for Chief Pard and Chief Patterson. Um so I was doing internal affairs investigation. I was doing some accreditation things. I was doing things that was outside of the scope of what we're going to ask these lieutenants to do. Our sergeants, cuz we

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had no lieutenant, do a huge part of our administrative duties. They do all our core prosecution. They do our LTC licensing. They do our FFL dealer inspections annually. They do our sex offend offender registry. They do our breath test machine like licensing and all the things with that. They they they

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do training. They do a a huge range of admin things that's split across these current sergeants, these five sergeants, um really four in patrol. And it's a huge ass. And what we're doing is we're asking them to sit in their office the whole shift and do this administrative work. So now we're not having them on

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the road. Like the goal of a sergeant would to be back up the officers, go to calls, watch how your officers are doing, like be there for them if they have a question on the stops and all the things. And we're missing a little bit of that piece because we're asking them to be in the office and do these

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administrative tasks. The goal of getting these two lieutenants is to split those administrative tasks across the two of them. So now they can be in the station. They can be a supervisor for the supervisors. They can be the middle person between executive leadership and patrol so nothing gets

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lost in translation trans uh translation. They're just a super catalyst in between the two. Our new sergeants that we're going to make, we just talked about we're going to have to make at least one new sergeant because we have a sergeant going to deputy chief. Um and the other person is coming from detective. Um, but if I got the

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second lieutenant spot, we would have two sergeants coming out. And those are new sergeants, right? So those new sergeants are learning something new, right? They don't just you give them the badge and they don't just automatically know what a sergeant does. They need development. They need training. And having a lieutenant there on the day

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shift and and on the evening shift, what an o what an opportunity for them, their own development to be like, hey, you were just a sergeant for 12 years, seven years. What do I do here? And that's what they're going to be able to do. They're going to be able to leave the office where they're going to wear a uniform. They're going to back up patrol. They're going to back up

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sergeants. They're going to review sergeant reports. And they're going to leave the executive level leadership to the deputy chief and the chief because we're going to be working every day to do the best we can for this department, for this town. Um, and that's the and that's the goal. We're going to fill

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those supervisory gaps. Next one. I think we're almost done here. All right. This is just talking about special services. Our minimum staffing in patrol is a sergeant or excuse me, our staffing in patrol with the people that we currently have. If we do this with if we get two

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lieutenants, we have a sergeant and three patrolman on every shift. So, day shift, evening shift, a split shift, and an overnight shift. That covers 24 hours a day in Littleton. With the staffing we have, we're going to staff that. Our minimum staffing is three people. So, one of those people

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can take the night off and we don't have to fill any overtime. when someone else takes the night off, then we have to fill overtime. These lieutenants right now, they're not going to count towards staffing. But so if two people take the night off, we're still going to fill overtime. It could be a sergeant. It could be a patrolman. It just happens to

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be on how they they're fair and their fair process of getting awarded overtime, but at least we know they're going to they're going to be there. The lieutenant is going to be there for oversight. And then we have an understanding that they're going to take nights off, too. And those gaps are going to they're realistic gaps. The sergeants aren't going to work every day there. the lieutenants, excuse me, are

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not going to work every day they're assigned. But again, we have an educated department. We have a good department. We set up for contingencies and plans. They can call any of us at any time and we're going to be good to go. So, we're looking to absorb the position. Next slide, please. Um, this is the reason,

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right? Insufficient supervision, inexperienced officers creates direct liability exposures for the town. Not taking anything away from I was a new police officer. Like for many years, I felt like I was a new police officer. I you know sometimes I still feel like that. Not taking anything away from

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them. They do an amazing job for us. But to have that level of like the security blanket of having a boss who's been there, done that, it's it's it's important for us. Um added command capacity, the oversight, the mentoring, all of that is important for us. And then the the consistent standards,

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they're going to be there when I can't be there. They're going to be there on the evening shifts. They're going to be there when the the rest of the command staff, we work day shifts. we're going to now have an option for an evening shift of a executive or command level uh leadership and uh we think that's super

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important. Uh just some benefits, morale, right? We're going to have promotions out of this. Um the unified leadership position, like why am I coming to you now and I'm not waiting? Because what an opportunity. The excitement that we have in Littleton is is amazing right now. I've got a lot of support from our

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staff. Um the excitement when when people get promoted, they get motivated. they feel that excitement again. So to be able to come out of this next month, the next 6 months as a united front of like these are the standards, these are the expectations. This is what we're our guiding light of what we're doing. Um

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and be united in that. I think that's important. Um we have strong candidates from this. Like it's not like we have to go look out of town for someone to come take this role. We've got them here with us right now that we could uh we could u put them right in the slot. Next slide please.

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And this is just like our timeline. Next slide. Okay. Uh additional appropriation require be our mentors for our department. And I say younger, but I mean just subordinate staff. Um because we've got, you know, some some senior officers that are

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amazing. Uh next slide. I think we're done. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> Um that's the why >> and uh thank you for being here and speaking on the finances. Um, again, it's something that I'm new on. Um, that's why I pull these these folks in

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and and you all for your expertise. So, thank you. >> Um, one thing I didn't >> Thank you, J. >> Thank you. The, uh, other communities, I'm just trying to figure out the structure. It seems like >> I >> I know the difference between the police

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and fire. Lieutenants are not in the union for the police. Lieutenants are in the union and fire. Correct. Mhm. >> Um, >> so the lieutenants for fire kind of run the shift like a sergeant would for us, right? So that's just and that and that's just in that culture, right? Their lieutenants are like their road

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bosses where our sergeants would do that that work. >> I know it's not apples to apples. >> Yeah. You know, I just rather important youth act and other departments that are right here. What does the structure look like? Cuz we're a growing community. We're going to >> discuss something else. We're going to get there. >> Yeah, we look east. We tend to look east

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lately because that's the you're not going to go the other way, >> right? And and other way. It's just like something happens in California policing and it slowly works its way across the country. Same thing in in Massachusetts. Something happens in Boston or in the bigger cities out east, it slowly works its way to Western Mass. And we're right

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in the middle of that. Um but yeah, the structure. So if you went to little to let's say Westford, Westford has a lieutenant on every shift. Westford has two sergeants, I believe. Uh I I hope I'm not mistaken, but I believe they have two sergeants on every shift and a lieutenant. So if a sergeant takes a

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night off, they got another one. If the two sergeants take the night off, they have another one. They have the finances and the staff that they backfill those positions, right? If one sergeant takes it off, they might not backfill it, but at least they have the other one there. So they've got that overlapping gap in there. Same thing with Actton. Actton has a lieutenant on every shift. Um

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>> captains, what? >> Captains. >> Actton. >> Actton. I don't cap little um I don't know if Actton has captains. I know like so for Westford they've got like >> back to those >> five lieutenants maybe or more cuz they've got detective lieutenant uh all the shifts have lieutenants they might

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have like a public affairs lieutenant or something I'm not this is like El West you see this role and then but Westford has two captains and a deputy chief so they've got that leveling of of um you know to just the kind of that leveled like aspect of of command to just like

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the military if someone falls out someone can fall like someone can pick up and and take off and and um but you see that so like you know Chumsford I kind of look at Chunsford I have a lot of respect for Chsford PD they're obviously a bigger community but our growth is is is getting that point and

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they're they're a lieutenant on every shift they have a where they have a detective lieutenant right specific to that they might have a internal affairs lieutenant so it definitely is a thing out west um that we get them on every shift and they have unions right they

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have superior officer unions in in those communities where the sergeants and the lieutenants and the captains might be in the same union versus patrol is separate whereas we're kind of still small enough that our sergeants and our officers are in the same union. So it's also nice to

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have you know someone who has oversight over that the younger staff who's outside of the union because you could see sometimes there's you know a union member who has to now be disciplining another union member and all those things. So now I take that piece and I can separate that and I can have a

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command staff that's outside the the union to do my my investigations, my complaints, all that stuff. And I don't have to rely on the sergeants to do that on their own staff and their own union union members. Um but yeah, it's it's out west. It's it's that way. And so

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>> I want to open it up to you. A couple of questions. >> Yes, sir. Chief, um, >> you mentioned a reduction in overtime. >> Yes, sir. >> Um, so I'd like you to talk about that for a second.

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>> But, uh, more importantly, >> um, you had a thing up there about morale and in the department. >> Yes, sir. >> What's the expectation with the the police department right now? Is they [clears throat] thinking that this is something that's going to happen? Are

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they looking forward to >> the extra two lieutenants there because they know everybody is going to advance up? >> That's my That's kind of the >> That's my Yes. Yes, sir. Um Yeah. No, that is it. And um there's opportunity, right? Everyone we're doing this

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internal. We're keeping I appreciate the town staying internal for the chief's position, for all the other positions, but when in the culture of policing, when someone gets promoted, then that's opportunity for someone else to get promoted and that and there's that excitement around that. What's the turnover been over the past couple of years?

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>> So to speak to that, we've had uh two officers in the last 5 years that I can recall. Um at least two officers leave for other departments. We had an officer that left for um >> different profession. >> Uh different profession. We had a a

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tragic thing with one of our officers passed away. Um and uh we've had retirements. So, we had, you know, John Janakis a couple years ago retired. Um, we've had Chief Pinard and then we're we're expecting Chief Patterson to

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retire. Um, you know, I I can I can name 15 people that have left since I got here. Maybe more. Um, that's just and mainly they leave for either other professions or other like state police. Maybe someone went to the state police.

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Maybe someone lives near Worcester so they went to Webster. We have someone that went to Webster. we had uh you know so they're just kind of getting closer to home. Um >> but you haven't heard >> they're hunting >> somebody say this is a nowhere position now I'm going somewhere else where I have an opportunity. >> I haven't heard that yet. >> Okay.

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>> Um and I spoke to that like in my interview process, right? So I have an understanding that like some of these upper positions here, we're all around the same age, right? We're we're like, you know, we're we're going to be together for a while. Like I think that's a cool good opportunity, but that

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might stale some people like down lower and that's so like which one do I want to go for? When do I get it? When like and that's all in consideration, but the developing others piece for me doesn't stop, right? Just cuz we have full staffing and we've got two lieutenants. We're training our sergeants to be

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lieutenants, right? And if they really truly want to be lieutenant and it's not and it just can't be in Littleton because of staffing, then we're going to support them and we don't want anybody to leave. we wanted to retain them their entire career. But if if if one of the candidates that went for a chief uh and I got it and they tell they come to me

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like dude I just wanted to be a chief before I retire then what do you need? What was miss like what can we do to get you to be a chief and I'll help you apply somewhere because we got other upandcomers. We've got smart people here and we've got people that want these jobs and and we're not going to and again we're developing them at every

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level. So we the the the goal is to have someone slip right in. But yeah, I I I couldn't tell you if someone would leave because they they weren't going to get the spot. It would be a personal choice. I hope they wouldn't because I mean I really appreciate everyone here now. Um but um >> overtime.

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>> Overtime. So we we generally do pretty good on overtime. You got you've been around the budget a lot longer than I have. Um we're not overspending in the overtime. I think we're around like 270 every year and we're like been consistent. And this year we spent a

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little bit um >> 26 >> 26 excuse me in 26 and um that's just transparency with you all and there's a few reasons for that. We had um we had a tragic thing happen um with one of our

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officers that passed away. So we we we lost uh a personnel and we didn't hire for a while. Um we had a couple people leave uh to go to other professions like we talked about uh within 26. So um after that our

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officer passed away. We had an officer that took extended leave. Um so that was and and thankfully just came back today, right? So that's uh that's great. We we're so excited that he's back. Um so and then also it was accreditation year.

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Every three years we get accredited which means that we are audited and we have uh EMPAC mass police um accreditation commission throughout those three years we're promising EMPAC that we're following um specific policies best practices in

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policing and we have to maintain compliance with all these 400 standards and every third year sends a team in to do an audit for us and this year we had our audit. So we keep compliance all three years, but we went for a new

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system this year where they went from paper rolling card of files for 400 standards to now all digital. So we had to spend like 6 months in with our hair on fire to try to upload and get all this compliance and write new language

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into the what we call power DMS system because we're doing like virtual audits and we did a great job. It was supposed to take 3 days to do that audit. They came in and they did it in one day. Um, and that's a testament to to the sergeant um who is now becoming deputy chief um that did that work. So, uh, but

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that being said, we had to reassign him from sergeant. I'm telling you how much admin stuff the sergeants have been doing every single day for like almost every day for like 6 months. We had to take him from his sergeant duties and put him in a conference room and get him to do all this cuz I was doing internal

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affairs and supporting and I was helping him but he did a lot of that work. So, um, that just cost us We had to back fill his shift. So, we were constantly every single day having overtime. Where we're at now is we had our officer come back today. We had an officer graduate

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from the police academy last Friday. He's back. He started today. Um, he's going to get off FTO program and he's going to be on a shift and he's going to fill in our gaps. We had an an academy recruit get out of the um for officer that passed away. We finally got him um

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our recruit back three weeks ago. So he's by all accounts doing an amazing job and he's out there and within like three uh excuse me probably six to eight more weeks he'll be on his own and he'll count towards staffing. So as soon as we get this command staff built out my goal is to then hire these other two backup

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these positions the retirement spots meaning um Chief Pard and Deputy Chief Patterson. Not looking to make any of these promotions until after Deputy Chief Patterson retires. So after September, but I just want to get ahead of this so I can present the two people if possible the same day. But I need

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that staff. I need those sergeants. I need the new sergeants. I need the lieutenants to help me hire somebody, right? We need to do we need to do recruiting. We need to do interviews. We need to do background checks. And that's all part of that. So I need that that team to to help me with that while I'm

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doing chiefly things, right? Uh but uh so that's the goal to to get it now. And that's why I think um we're going to have a reduction cuz like I said with these numbers and when when we're at full staff, we have a sergeant and three patrolman guaranteed on every shift and

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we'll go down to three people. We will not let the shift go below three people. So when it goes to two, we put it out to everybody who wants to work this shift. If everyone says no, then we force somebody to do it, right? And we don't like forcing. We don't want to order people in on their days off. So we try

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to avoid that, right? and and that's just part of our culture. It's something we accepted as police officers. We know we we work, you know, different schedules. But I think once all these people are off field training, once we have our new hires done, and we're we're going to we're going to be you're going to see a great reduction in overtime,

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right? And and some of the the stuff that we're paying the the sergeants to do on overtime um is going to be taken up by the duties of of the lieutenants. So, and the deputy chief. So, we're going to see a reduction there. There's so many [clears throat] moving pieces to this.

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>> It's It's a chess board. Yeah. >> It's probably going to take you six months to pick these people everything. >> No, >> not to pick, but >> Oh, to Oh, to get everything >> to get everything settled and saying, "Okay, I'm I'm where I need to be with this department." >> I'm trying. Yeah, I would I would say I

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would like to get the deputy chief and lieutenants by September. throughout the month of September get my two new sergeants and post the external position and by November have two new hires and the goal which I think we're going to do is I think we're going to recruit some

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already trained police officers right so there's a cost to hiring a new person we all know that right sending them to the academy buying them police equipment all these things there's cost associated I think there's so much excitement and I've been already talking to other areas that we're going to be able to recruit some like experienced police police

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officers because you because you all have supported the contract um and supported these positions uh and then that they're they're like seeing this like Littleton as like a place that they want to be. So that's a good thing. We're going to get some experience to augment um these kind of command staff

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that I I get a good feeling about that. So um and I think that's exciting too to get that in so we're not getting that green person again that's coming right out of the academy. If we can get someone that comes with 10 years of experience and by all accounts is a great cop and they just want to come be part of our team, that's what we're

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looking for. So >> yeah, good. But I mean today today's essentially your first day. So I'm just kind of wondering what took you so long to get this presentation. >> I know [laughter] [clears throat] a lot of things going on in town and cameras and all the things. But one one of the things I want to say is you you

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being very humble by saying that um >> and not to discredit what what the sergeant that did the accreditation Oh yeah. did but uh you you you played a pretty significant role in making sure that that was done and it was done. >> Thank you. Yeah. No, Mark did a great job and I appreciate everything and it

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was good for us. It's it's nice that we'll be getting that award soon. We'll be inviting some of you all to our our award ceremony and it's a big deal uh for the department. So, thank you. a lot to be proud of. Big part of it. Thank you. >> Can I ask you a question? Um,

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how does this position us going forward? Like you were able to come in under budget for some one time avoidance, but looking out to next year, assuming [snorts] budget request will be leveled. How funded are we struggling now?

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>> It depends. It depends on the classes. It depends on negotiations. So, It's an answer. I can't answer. >> Depends on health insurance. >> Yeah, it's going to be insurance. >> Right.

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>> That's kind of what I'm struggling with is I'm a big advocate of succession planning and promoting from within. And I like all the things that that the chief is talking about. I'm just struggling with knowing what the future

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holds as far as budget deficits moving forward. How much this will add pressure and how much pressure it is because >> it's only so much money and put it here. You know how it is. We got to stop

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somebody else from growing or >> you know the schools are going to have a big ass this year. I'm sure of it. So >> we need to be prepared for that. the Quinn I noticed the stipens are fully used no matter >> right exactly so we've already have

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these additional constraints from contracts and everything else >> very little >> if if if I can if I can speak to the to to the proposal I mean uh I have had the experience of in other communities that

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uh had a uh a culture in a particular in in pol in a police department that was ex extremely detrimental to the morale to the operations uh to the community tremendously. So here you know here is

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an opportunity of a chief is being proactive not reactive uh to what uh the vision is for his leadership team. He has and coincidentally he I am very familiar with one of those lateral transfers, those experienced offices that the chief

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made reference to. Uh very very strong candidate, another community that um I was a town manager in uh was what I viewed uh to be the future of that community of leadership. um because

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again because of that culture uh left and recognizing what the chief and his leadership brings wants to come here. It is it's it's fantastic. um in the other um uh and it's something

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that uh and I I I am in everyone I'm looking at the the fincom I'm looking at the select board um that we're all first question I asked the chief when he when he proposes to me last week said okay just show us the numbers how can we how

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does it fit and making sure that it making sure that it fits but it is so important this uh this proposal to and I'm strongly advocating for the support of everybody uh to do this because it is so

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important. You know, you're leading out with a new administration. There is that level of excitement. The morale is huge and the thing that you we really need to understand is the the and I know the chief had mentioned this a few times,

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the age of our personnel. They are so young. so young. They need that experience in the leadership positions and they need that to see that that the the leadership role that the chief is is exhibiting

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um is a cohesive relationship uh just a welloiled machine. You don't get that in a lot of places. You just don't. I mean, I've talked to other town managers during my career and town administrators, city managers, mayors.

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You don't get what you have here. It's not there. It's very, very difficult to get. I can tell you on the outside it looks all pretty. The facade looks great, but then when you start looking behind the cam, I mean behind the curtain, then you can see the the real

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difficulties and you don't get that here. I It's >> Thank you. >> Yeah, without a doubt. >> So, Doug, you're at 24. You'll be 24 after all these movements. Your first ask is it backfilling that that

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detective slot that's going to open up that the 25th >> that'll be my next ax next year. Is that what you mean? >> Yeah. >> Or after so after this what would I come at at you with? Um no it wouldn't be a fifth uh person. What it would be is I

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told I told you guys about um I told you about we have um school resource officers and we have a detective SRO and we have a patrol SRO. That detective SRO is a detective in our ranking scale. Our

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patrol SRO is a patrol in our ranking scale. My ask would be if we had the funds to um turn that patrol SRO position into another detective SRO position. And what that looks like is um a 7% salary increase for that one

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person. So we would stay at 24 people. I would then be able to build my detective unit back up um because I took I'm taking one for a lieutenant. Um and I can give them an official title. And what that does, it just gives me more of a scope of work that I can I can give

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that patrol SRO. Um, I can give them some they've already got detective training because we do that succession planning. Um, so that's there's no cost there, but it it's just it's it's a it's just a I don't know how to say it. It's a pride thing. It's a thing to be a detective. Um, but also uh I think it's

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important when they present themselves and say I'm a detective SRO. This is what I can do for you. So that is another conversation. I wouldn't I'm not asking I I can make that until next next year, but yeah, I wouldn't be coming asking in this budget season for a 25th

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person. I would be asking for a 7% 7% raise to to re um classify that patrol SRO to a detective SRO. There would be no such thing in our department as a patrol SRO. We would have detective SRO.

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So, does that say you have too many um patrol hours because you've got to be that you're giving up patrol hours? >> No. So, this person doesn't do patrol hours. The patrol SRO >> currently does not do patrol hours.

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They're in the school during the school year and then they don't count toward currently they don't count towards our staffing during the school year. They're Monday through Friday just like the detective SRO. So, it's literally just a classification and then it's also I can now use them as my on call list for

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detectives, right? So, I need I don't have te detectives 24 hours a day. So, when there's a B&E at night, I have to call a detective in. >> And the reason you're not proposing to do that right now, >> I'm trying to be sensitive to the budget. >> I'm sorry. >> I'm just trying to be sensitive to the

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budget to the budget because that's another 7% that I would need. Um I have the personnel to do it. I have >> it's complicated a little further because that's the position that's half funded by the schools bound. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Nine months I believe. >> Nine months. Yeah.

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>> 75,000. >> Yeah. So I I mean I don't think they're they're not lo That's a that's a discussion for me and Mike. Um they're not going to lose any activity like they're they're an SRO still, but in the summertime I'd love to have a detective,

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you know. So, so and if I can I mean do you know again this is this is not the ask tonight but if I could find funding for that um yeah that's that that would be a goal I think it would be a great opportunity >> but we shouldn't expect a 25th headcount >> no

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>> in your budget ask >> no >> okay >> for FY28 for 28 >> for the 28 >> yes sir >> right >> I know it's going to be 75 the next year when buy 50 blooms and we're going to

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have so much money that we're just going to able to spend it all >> and rise up like the phoenix just [laughter] >> we laugh at it but let's let's be honest we rode a point wave for about 10 years it it is real >> absolutely is real

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>> so there is you know you saw it I mean >> how we spent the money maybe wasn't appropriate but I think we've got a better grip on >> stabilizations financial policy which is going to help control that money. >> All right. It's a lot. And I know I you

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know I I I know just um me personally uh you know sitting on the interviews I think for the lieutenant and the um deputy I and with the other chiefs just listening to the

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each individual that came up mostly sergeants some patrol as well that and directed some of the questions on some of the most difficult parts of the job. And it was it was that they're just so bogged down with administrative duties that they don't get to get out on the court [cough] with their with the

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patrolman. And that that struck me more than probably anything from the the safety standpoint that they're >> So we're going to pay somebody more to sit at a desk and do administrative duties so somebody can get in the car

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and be out on the road. >> Yeah. >> And then and does that make sense? Not to not to down training, >> you're managing your your patrol managing. >> Yeah. Respectfully, I think the the lieutenants, they're going to go to calls, you know, they're going to they're going to wear a uniform. They're

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going to wear and a gun and they're going to back up on critical calls. >> Then somebody's not doing the administrative duties that people are complaining about doing. So [snorts] I mean there's there's a circular discussion here that doesn't

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there's a balance there that that the leadership will absolutely do but the problem that because you've got >> um that my experience has been when you have one individual superior officer in that position it's a bottleneck and whether that individual whether that

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be a deputy chief or a lieutenant or a captain there's only one there because you have operations and you have admin And you and that that is not what the the the chief is looking for to split the admin and the and that because

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it's not in a in a terrible spot, but you will still get bottlenecked if you only have one person. >> Yeah. The admin stuff. >> Yeah. They're going to share responsibilities and they're like because that's that's that's common. If you have like Westford, they have a

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admin captain and a patrol operations captain and they they split sides of the building. We're not big enough to do that, right? So, I'm asking a lot of these lieutenants to to be able to wear many hats just like I ask of all my police officers and the community asks

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to wear many hats. We do way more than just crime fighting. You know, there's a lot of problem solving going out and the people are calling us for way beyond, you know, legal advice. Um, and that's and that's internally for us as well. We've got we have to keep up with post

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compliance. We have to keep up with the MPTC, the Mass Police Training Council. So, obviously a couple years ago, um, uh, Massachusetts adopted new new laws with post and postcertification and mandated training and mandated like all

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these mandated oversight. Like we have there's legitimately there's laws that say if a use of force happens, a supervisor has to look at that shift. We don't even have supervisors every shift, you know, so we have to call a supervisor and tell them, "Hey, Sarge,

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this just happened." So, we're that's our battle and we're trying to lessen that curve and we're trying to get ahead of that by getting more over more trained, experienced oversight because along with the the title comes a whole

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process of development for that role specifically. So that's the important side. >> Does the union have to weigh in on this chief at all? >> No, I think >> since they're losing >> I looked at member >> I looked at the contract. >> They're okay. >> We looked at it and we looked at

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management rights and that's and and and to be fair, my presentation is they're maybe temporarily losing a member. Can we because I want to try to talk to you guys all um this is a delay of putting a detective in there. I want to talk to

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you all about another detective position for next FY um 28. So um but yeah, so we're delaying replacing the lieutenant who is going to to excuse me, the detective that's going there, but if we can have discussions about how we get that back, um I think that's an

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opportunity for them to to get back in that role. But yeah, and then and obviously in the in the transparent like my plan is is to post the position again. They all knew. They all knew this. Like every single one of them. I talked to them and before the interview I'm like, "Hey." They're like, "Cie,

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should I put him for it?" I say, "Of course you should put him for it. Everyone should put him for it. If they think they're capable, if they could think you can do it, you do it because yes, we're going to pick one right now, but the goal, it's been Matt Bernard's goal. It's been my goal. We've been very ver verbal about it. We want two lieutenants. We think it's that

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important." Um, so yes. Now, five people put in for it. I love that. But I can't pick all five. I wish I could. I wish I could, but I can't pick two very capable people because we know that they're there cuz I just watched them interview and I talked to the board. Um, so yeah,

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it's uh, you know, can't I'm trying to make everyone happy. I hope I can, but um, it is >> I just jump on what you just said. You mentioned chief and I tenure chief who know knows the department well. Um, is a good mentor to to yourself and to the

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department as a whole. He discussed this last year on a budget. He he talked about us having a second lieutenant. He talked about it with the 25th member of the of the department as well. So, um I I very much respect and appreciate what you're putting forward and it's not it's not new to us. We knew this was coming, you know, and this is something that uh

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um I appreciate the way that you you've all put in the time to to make it budget neutral this year. Um and you know, a way that we can absorb it and um we can we can hammer this. We can talk about hypotheticals, but um I think it is the right thing for us to do. And I I appreciate you coming forward, chief, and and presenting this to us um and

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doing it without that 25th body. I mean, it's eventually we're going to be looking at that, but I think it just in, you know, being considerate of of the budget and and the impact. Um I think it's the right thing for us to do and I appreciate it. >> Thank you, sir. >> The only difference, Chuck, is that what

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the former chief was talking about was going to happen in a regular budget cycle. >> Okay. >> This is off cycle >> and >> it's taking advantage of a of a unique situation. We didn't know that that that the 8year tenure chief was going to be leaving any either. So, you know, it's kind of a lot of stuff had to happen as a result. >> So, then you can make the argument, is

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it is it right to start redistributing these monies somewhere else instead of just putting it aside and saying, "Okay, we're going to be a little ahead this year. Let's deal with this whole situation at the budget

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session next year." So, that's that's what I'm facing. So, is it is it something that we because like I said, I'm a big advocate of succession planning and promoting from within and I hear everything that that the chief is talking about

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>> and I walked in here as a no and he's got me like this close to saying yes. [laughter] >> And I mean, you and I typically when it comes to off cycle and I think I can speak to for Mark as well and we've sat through a number of budgets, Steve, and I I don't I think I'm always a no to any new bodies. Um, but I I see the value in

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doing this and doing it now. So, and I I'm right there with you. I started as a no. I told I told Chief Bernard that I'm like, you're gonna have a tough time convincing me. And um I I appreciate the amount of time and effort Doug's put into this and with the help of Robin and Jim. And >> one more thing and I'll uh and I'll stop

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it because I very sensitive to your time. It's just throughout the interview process for this chief's thing like the question is always like the worst question you don't want anybody to ask you is like what's your weakness right and you're like in an interview board you're [clears throat] like what's your biggest weakness and your biggest strength you come up with something good

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but you're like a what is my biggest weakness right and and my answer consistently was I don't know what I don't know and what I mean by that is like I think for this role I had a great mentor and chief Bernard uh he let me he moved the curtain and he took me

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everywhere where he showed me the way. And uh but I still don't know it all. Like I I have I'm still going to school. I I've got a master's degree and I'm going back to Suffach University. I like I still have things to learn. And I think what came out of this whole process is like at every level, we still have things to learn, right? So I'm just

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trying to I respect the the mid cycle budget that I'm coming in. I I'm sensitive to that and I we spoke on that, but I'm just trying to get ahead of the the curve in meaning every level. Well, the new deputy chief, he's coming, he's come, I he's coming from sergeant. He's never been a deputy chief. He

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doesn't even have a lieutenant. He's never was a lieutenant, right? So, he's got a big curve to accomplish. He's got his own development to going on. This new lieutenant is coming from detective. He's got a big curve. He's got a lot to go on. And then we got our sergeants that are brand new sergeants. They're like running around with their hair on

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fire. What What I What's expected of me as a sergeant? And again, we do an amazing job. Like, our police department is the beacon, right? I And I truly believe that. Um, I'm just I'm advocating for them. I'm here advocating for the department. I want them to be

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successful. I think this is going to add to what that success looks like. Um, and again, it's just all of us coming together to help each other out, be there in the moment. Um, and that and that's that's where my my why midcycle, why now? That's where my heart came from

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for the for the ask. So, tonight though, >> I'm going to ask a follow-up question to that. You don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Right. day one today. >> Yeah. >> Um what if 6 months from now you realize this wasn't actually we needed

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>> if I if I could do it over again >> the hindsight >> I would be I wouldn't have done it that way. I would have you know I don't know what your other options are. I assume they exist. >> So I came from a >> you can't unpromote people right. So, what what will you do if you discover

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that this isn't quite what you needed? >> No, thank you. >> I've thought about it like I don't sleep at night, you know, type guy, right? So, uh I'm up and uh and I come from that like like a SWAT team background of contingency contingencies like what if or and I'm like drawing out, you know,

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[clears throat] diagrams of this schedule looks like this. Like I could have came here tonight and asked for another sergeant, right? It would have been cheaper, all these things. But then I don't really have I only have two shifts right now that don't have a sergeant. So now I've got overlap of sergeants. So now I'm paying two sergeants to be there on one shift. And

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and again and then but I'm not getting the gain of I'm still having the sergeants do all the work, you know, in with the lieutenant, the one lieutenant. So, I I think the as much as Littleton's growing, we're growing and we've seen that and and this is where we need to be

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like and and again, I'm I wouldn't do anything to to intentionally put our ourselves in a bad position. Um I respect the question, but I think this is this is needed. Um, and I think the people that we have in mind, the people that have applied and the people that

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may apply in the coming weeks if this is approved are super capable. And I think it's going to be a good thing. And I I I don't just like we don't want to go backwards. I I I would hate to come in here and say, I can do this with 22 people and give me the person. You know what I mean? Like I'm we don't want to

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go backwards. We don't want to lose something. Um, it took so it took so much for these chiefs to get to where we are. And I I'm sure every time they come in, they felt just as uncomfortable as me asking for something, right? Cuz we we're putting ourselves out there. Um, but I I don't I don't see the uh the you

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know, I I think the biggest thing with this is there's probably some of those young guys that have been here for 2 years that want to be a detective. And I'm telling you all right now that I'm going to hold off on making a detective. And that's a difficult conversation for me. like I I know I have to go back and I have to paint the picture of guys this

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is the best interest of the department. This is the best interest of the town. This is why they put me in this position to to organize this department which is going to be the best answer to the community and patrol is the backbone of the department. I have so much respect for the detectives. What they've been

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doing with our bees is amazing. Like unbelievable. That arrest that they had the other day that doesn't happen right that the detective work was there. We're not dismantling our detective bureau. We've got super capable people. I just told you we've got the detective sergeant who's a stud coming back from

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the DEA and he's going to be there and and have his have his staff and they're going to do amazing things. So, um, but yeah, I I I see difficult conversations. I know I'm not going to make everyone happy, but I'm trying to do the best the best for all. So, I'll try that answer

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it. All right. Any other comments from com or anything? >> Yeah, we can we can put it to a vote. That makes sense. I mean, typically when we do budget season stuff, we we vote as a

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group, though. I I I mean I know it ultimately I guess the select board could say we're going to do it for but the I think a vote we typically vote for as a group when all our budget decisions. So that's I don't want to buck that trend. I don't think that's

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fair or necessary. >> So you're going to vote without a full board. >> Yeah. you know, I just, you know, talking to individuals, you know, at the very least it would be they'd be a wash. So, that's just talking to both. And I I

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think, you know, Mark, um, some of the same discussions, but he also wasn't dealing with this, you know, he he emailed me today and he had a lot of the questions I think he had, did you get the email or? >> Yeah. Was really related. Um, well, the offcycle stuff always has bothered Park.

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you know that but it was um he didn't see let's see the budget let's see the numbers let's see he just didn't know where he cuz he didn't have this um so that was a lot of his questions but so I'm counting him maybe potentially he'd be in now but Kyle is on the other side of it Kyle sat with me and through some

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of this process >> whatever I just >> so yeah I I'm cognizant of I I think it's important that FinCom play a role in this and and it's I recognize as Doug does chief and Jim that it's a uh

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it's an asset that we all have to weigh in on our heads. You know, it's always that public safety always draws me a little bit differently than other positions in town. It always has. Um so that's a key part for me. Um when we're talking about cycle otherwise, you're

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right, everybody's [clears throat] on the same playing field, so to speak. Um but we're you saw the presentation. And I I don't really have anything to add besides my experience with the interviews and and hearing Sergeants talk that that's probably why I'm a yes.

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I'll say that. >> Consensus because it looks like you and I are in favor of this. >> I mean, we're looking for a consensus or is that or >> I mean if if we take a vote and we only get two of us vote in favor of it.

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>> Yeah, that's fair. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, I just want to hear I mean just consensus wise and if you guys what what you're thinking. >> I I I think uh the chief has has swayed me.

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So, um I'm okay with the moves. I heard what Karen just said and I think back of of how we treated Liz when the new building opened next door. She wanted X. said, "Well, you know, let's

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>> get your feet wet in in the building and, you know, manage it for a little while and you come back and you see and when she came back, it was something different than what she was thinking about up front." So, there's something to be said for what Karen brought up. See, I mean, that

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>> Yeah, I mean, that was in my mind as well. It's such a different situation, right? >> Oh, it is. It is. >> But if I could just say >> what you're saying could possibly happen. >> It could happen, but So he'll handle it. >> I think I'm okay. [laughter]

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>> One contract as long as the ask for next year >> isn't >> for more officers. >> You have that one SRO that you may shift from patrol and we can talk about that during the regular budget session. Yes, sir. >> You're going to have a new contract

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because the contracts up at the end of the year. So see what the impacts of those things are townwide. So I hear you with the detective and stuff, but I don't think we can fin at least me for can't guarantee that that's

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something that we can support right now. We have to see how it weighs with everything else. >> I understand. >> But I think for me, I think you swayed me on this. So >> I appreciate it. Well, anytime you have a new manager,

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they want to put their scent on the organization, and I think he's made a thoughtful presentation, but I I I still don't like it being off cycle.

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Um, and I think um I understand the uh the Quinn accelerating the Quinn bill. I don't like it, but I understand it. >> I must like that. >> Um, and

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you know, I don't you don't have a strong yes for me yet. I just It's okay. But I'm really concerned about next year. Um especially with the uh the contracts coming up. Um and I think this

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could just exacerbate that problem. So that's just my two cents. Um my only concern is the 2028 budget. Some uncert uncertainties around what the impact all of it is going to be having there. But I think I liked everything you talked about the

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structure and how it could influence and all of that. So there's always uncertainty. You can't really guarantee what's going to be there, you know, to one year from now. With that, I think I'm going to say yes. Well, I think I would probably say yes because I'm I'm a little skeptical that

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all these promotions will be a wash into next year and beyond. But um I think this does set us up with a good management structure that will be able to accommodate new young patrol officers that we will probably be hiring

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in the next 3 to 5 years or two to five years, whatever. >> Yes, sir. >> Um I think that's a positive. Yeah, I think I that was the same uh constrained yes concerned. Yes. With

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concerns for playing the same it's a shortterm address but >> okay want to put it to motion. >> Yeah, please.

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Um, just select board, right? >> Uh, yeah. Move the move the select board vote to support and approve the reorganization proposed by Chief Landry for the Littleton Police Department. Second. >> Moved by Chuck, seconded by Karen. All

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in favor? >> I. >> Do you need a vote from us or you? >> We've done it in the past. >> I mean, we don't I guess we don't need it. We even though we're missing two members, we just got three yeses. though for the five. But I

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I've always appreciated and I think >> having support of it. Yeah, >> I know Karen did operated that way the past too. So >> look for a motion for what Chuck said. [laughter] >> Second. All in favor? >> I

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>> I thank you, Chief. >> Thank you all so much. >> Thank you very much. Best of luck. No, >> I appreciate you very much. Thank you so much. >> We appreciate you taking your time and presenting this to us. >> I know we're going to have a lot of discussions. I appreciate Thank you so

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much for the rest of the talks, but thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Flock by Chuck by Karen. All in favor? I'll send you