Okay, good evening everyone. This is the community preservation committee meeting for September 17th, 2025. We have a full house tonight, which is nice. Um, we may as well get started. Let's see.
news mail minutes. So, I do have a couple of news items. Um, first of all, uh, the charter committee, everyone hopefully has heard of the charter committee some right now. On October 14th, they're having a public forum at the Shadic Center at 6 PM. So,
they just want to kind of get the word out for that. That's um, I will forward you the uh, email that I got from the coalition. I think just this afternoon they're having a um
a Q&A discussion uh program making the most of your local CPA program. Um they've done boot what they call boot camps before. If anyone's watched those on on their website, they're pretty good. It's going to be a 90inute um
presentation with Q&A and discussion. That's on October 9th, which is a Thursday, at the Carile Town Hall at 7. I'm hoping to to be able to make it and I don't mind car pooling if anyone wants to ride over. It's free but it does say
to register so I'll forward the email and some of you I think are already on the um yeah on the um call it the email blast. So um if anyone's interested
let's all go and eat lots their cookies to make up for the dues that Yeah, that's right. $3,500 worth of cookies. But that might be good. Agreed. I'm not Don't mean to put it down. No, no, they're they're actually they're
good. And I watched the recorded one and they cut off the Q&A, which I think would probably be the most interesting part. So, it'd be kind of neat to to be there um and be able to answer some questions if we have, you know, some questions may probably more general than real specific, but it might be good to
be able to get those answered. Um minutes, what did I send? December 14th. December. December. I don't know if this
and then we also have August 27th right last um which has have a couple of holes which I can fill in I I have to comment on the graphics and the organization and it's they're really nice like these are AI
interesting yes yes and I have had discussions on AI and how we don't like it yet. I think this is kind of nice. Well, yeah. I I might flush them out a little bit.
Boats. Um anyway, and and it's it's very succinct and and tells you what what it I mean for a few, you know, half an hour's worth of work or whatever to go through them. Um so
any discussion on the the December minute? Yeah, I had a couple one minor comment and then I thought I had a major one, but maybe it was any other minutes. Okay, I thought I was listening. Um anyway,
for the December 18th, 2024 minutes, the first uh the second line says it was called to order at 7:05. And then a little further down on page one, it says call to order, call to order at 611. Oh, you know what I think
is that when I it's like an hour behind because I noticed like whatever software that was being used must must be seeing it in a different time zone. So, it's the 7:00 one. So, we'll have to change that.
It starts a timer. Yeah. 27. Let me just see. I have to go down. I guess I don't have any more comments on this one. So, Linda, which time would you go?
7 o' What was it? 711, did you say? 75 71 7 After you make a couple more recommendations, will you move to approve them? That that's the only comment I have.
Okay. Yeah. Because I think Bartletta would probably second your motion. Sure. I move to approve the December 18th, 2024 minutes with uh the edit to the time change correction.
Second. Uh we'll do a roll call since we have two members remote. Um Mitt, yes. Linda, yes. Bartlett, yes. Carolinda, yes. Sam, yes. Jeff, yes. Andrew, yes.
Can you guys hear me? I can hear you. Andrew, I can't hear you. Can you hear me? Kate? Yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah, Kate, I can hear you, but I I don't think they can hear us.
Yeah, I agree. Andrew, while they're figuring that out, I wasn't present at that meeting, so I don't think I should vote on it. I mean, they look fine, but I don't know if they're right or not. Yeah, you can always abstain if you'd be more comfortable. Oh, here we go. Now
we're coming as panelists. I think we should be good. Andrew, Andrew, can Hey, can you guys hear me now? Andrew, can you talk now? Hello. Can you hear me now?
I can still hear you. They can't hear us. Maybe my volume is down. Uh, let's see. Shoot. See if I can text Caroline. Maybe it's the uh the volume on the computer. I think she just said she was going to
try to change her volume. Let's see if that works. Have Are we promoted to panelist so she can hear us? I don't remember if I got that right. Yeah. So right now we're panelists so we should I we should be um able to to talk
and to let's see right actually right because we're able to unmute ourselves I can't tell if this is plugged Then and we'll keep talking to see if you can hear us. Is this thing turned on?
Is this thing on? Ask them to hate. Yes. Can you hear us now? Can you guys hear us now? Oh, I think they're muted now. Oh, now. But no, there's red. So, I'm going to think that. Yeah.
Flip it around. Look at the album. Yes. Can you hear us now? Hey. See, it looks like Kate's trying to talk, but I can't hear. trying to talk. So, what would that be a function of? Is our box our box must be lighting up.
It is, right? Let me let me see if I can call Carolyn. Okay. Or is it the owl? I I don't know what I'm talking Oh, I just turned.
You could try on clicking. Yeah, he's Andrew seems to be on mute, but Oh, that's I think Andrew was gonna try to call. Hi,
I can hear you on my phone. Yes. [Music] Get my hair going. You guys know, I know. I just looked at the Does it look like it's
like it's all the way? Turn the speaker. I think I'm not plugged in. I think I'm going to lose everybody in a minute. under sound. Oh, we could just settings. Now volume's all the way up, but output
device, input device, speakers. Echo canceling the speaker. Can you hear us now? Okay, we're gonna hang up. [Music] There we go.
So, I think you were on Andrew for the vote. Okay. Yes. All right. Andrew, I and Kate, I think I'll abstain since I was not present at that point. Okay. Okay. So, that's 701. Thank you. And then we
have minutes for the uh 827. And Linda, you had more. Yes. Actually, this one was a Oh, yeah. Obviously, there's a couple. You have to fill in the members who said you could do that. Yeah. But then one substantive comment I thought under number four on
page two um it says maintenance versus capital improvement distinction discussed invasive removal could be seen as preservation of open space in a maintenance mode. I don't know what in a
maintenance mode means and I think it's a bit of an issue because maintenance is not supposedly covered under CPC. Can we just delete that phrase? Yes, I think so. And it says rehabilitation is not
allowed. That's almost like opposite, right? Yeah, we could probably delete that line, too. Yeah. So, it would say maintenance versus capital improvement distinction discussed. Invasive removal could be seen as preservation of open space. Period.
Yeah. Perfect. Good. The um the motions were under the uh minutes. It was Linda and Mitt and the um dues were Sam and Linda for first and second. So, we'll add those those in as
well. Okay. So go back to that meeting in the in lakes. Um did we confuse them? Did we discourage them? Did we
um I I felt bad lucky that we were sort of shutting down some of their forward motion. Um, that's all I don't I don't really until they get, you know, until there's
a, you know, proposal. Yeah, I think I think it was a little shocking to them, but I think it was um a touch of the brakes. I I I said a lot that was substantive about that that
was sort of like crushing. And I've done some some reading too of the CPA and it's just so so vague. The legislation is very vague allowing us to do whatever we
want. And I just think that that makes it all the more important for us to develop a good rapport among members so that we have a vision for what we want in terms of
when decisions get tough when when we have multiple applicants. It's going to be really tough. And and so I think that I've heard them say things like what's the difference between herbicides
on land versus what's herbicides in water and is this an appropriate time to talk about I was going to say we we have this still as a discussion point we want to just go right into that um or we didn't so we I I think we could
go right into it. Yeah, we can move it around. I don't think anyone I I think the main sticking point was their plan on getting a consultant to the survey over the planning of it and
I anyway that's all and if I were them I would still try to get a grant for that and we didn't discuss it then because it does seem to make sense. Uh it it also came down to a whole discussion about feasibility
studies. You know, we we just had a feasibility study or in my view a crazy amount of money for the boat ramp at Spectacle Pond. People were thinking that that is actually for the ramp, but
that was just the engineering or the feasibility for it. Um, anyway, so these are all good discussions and maybe they shouldn't be done in the context of a specific proposal, but I I don't want
to discourage that committee. They are really working hard. Yeah, they're doing important stuff. And but on the other hand, I do think that in terms of the breaks, this committee or this money,
the money we have should not be relied upon indefinitely and forever to, you know, do these um projects with the exception of housing. I didn't say that. Seriously? No, because yeah,
because there's no other applicants currently and it's managed by someone other than us and it's convenient. Um I think the issue with um their well anyway once again in the
absence of a specific I just don't I would rather have people come forward with proposals that don't make it than us discourage people ahead of time. Right. And I think I just wanted to make sure that we were aware of,
you know, that they'll keep coming and, you know, now like um Rob Bron was here talking about having similar projects now come through conservation trust or if Kanscom comes through. So if we have all these people coming looking for recreation and space money just for the
waterways. True. And he was talking about invasives and that's the thing. So I don't remember the ins and outs of our discussion but according to the minutes it was maintenance versus
capital improvement and so preser as I would see that invasive removal is um both in the lakes and in the conservation areas is not maintenance.
Is that our position? Well, I think it when is that tipping point? Yeah. Is it is it year after year after year? It's like mowing the lawn type. It's not for the first time in Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that was a really that was a
really um uh I mean I think that was probably the um most meaningful discussion we've had in a while about you know what goes on. Um, and just all they sort of wiped of it, you know. Well, I know I feel bad because I think
that's kind of how it, you know, because they weren't in front of us and obviously the part of this discussion came up because of of them, but it wasn't specifically them. No, but I think we also kind of said be broader with your your you know, don't be don't be so specific is kind of a
change from what we were saying before. You know, before I say come with a specific project. Now, if they come and they say, "We want to get rid of invasives in forge pond using all of these possible ways," you know, rather than eagle harvesting because then they're locked into that eagle
harvesting. I think that was part of I know at Clean Lakes, you guys talked about it um at your last Clean Lakes meeting. Um, and I think Mark Browner was there as well and I know he was saying, you know, maybe we have to come
up with some kind of plan even if it's just like our, you know, how what do we want to do? Do we want to allocate certain monies every every year for invasive control? Maybe that's something that we want to put in our plan.
Um, I think he was just saying maybe we need to kind of think ahead of ahead of time so we're not That's hard though. How would that happen? I mean, you'd have to go to a town meeting and say, you know, this is what we want to do over the next
five years. I can I weigh in on a few things because I think I think No, that's like a departmental line item. the way I feel about it and maintenance is not
disallowed under community preservation but um there is a distinction in open space a lot of people are preserving ponds and doing treatments under different things
currently even as recent as 2023 there's people doing it as an open space project and there's people doing it as a recreation project I think it should be an open space project. Land underwater is land.
Land underwater is not necessarily conserved through an easement in perpetuity. It wasn't bought by CPA. And if you look at the CPA law, there's um the the original legislation guides people to
say you can do certain things if the property was bought with CPA funds. I forget which of the three verbs that applies to if not three out of four. So the they are acquire um preserve
rehabilitate and maybe there's one other rehabilitate is not allowed for open space. So if if you're trying to like take a pond and make it better through killing the weeds, that to me sounds like rehabilitation.
If you're trying to preserve the open space of a pond in perpetuity, killing the weeds isn't going to do anything. They're going to come back. We have a huge invasive problems, but it's going to be here in 200 years from now. People, humans are going to manage that just fine. But what community preservation is in open space category.
What community preservation I believe is really pressing us to do is to use our money to acquire open space primarily. Like it it's rent. And there's one that's excluded. The one that's excluded is rehabilitation. And I
think that sort of should indicate to us directions to head for philosophical purposes. Recreation is way more liberal and and allows people to do stuff since CPA got
amended. And we should think of recreation as having an influx of money through blended funds. and we should try to weight our blended funds money toward recreation. The rest of the money, the original 1% that we take through tax
sarge, we can divide up how we want. 10 10 10 and 70 at our discretion. So, I think we should continue to try to push money toward open space because with the with if we're if we're honest
with ourselves, if we wait and we have over many decades, many two decades, we've favored open space in in our ratios and we've dedicated of that 70% that that's our discretion. We've waited
a lot of that towards open space and I think it's incumbent on us to use that money to acquire open space not to maintain. You want to protect the money to acquire in the event of Here's that chart that you were
referring to. Rehabilitation is allowed for open space if acquired with Oh, I see what you're saying. Sorry. Yes. If acquired or created. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So,
we bought the Yap property and there was a field that needed rehabilitation or something. We did buy the Y property. We could re habilitate. But these ponds, they're they're they're public and private property. Um,
so the the four verbs are acquire, create, space of required. Preserve, which is very loose. Preserve is to protect from harm. Like one sentence about preserve,
and then support, which is not allowed, but we can support housing. Um, and rehabilitate if acquired with CPA funds. Well, in the case of Long Lake, doesn't recreation play into this because the lake is used
for recreation. Recreation is a yes under rehabilitate and you don't have to the town doesn't have to acquire it. has to rehabilitate even if the town didn't acquire it. And I suppose any of the lakes and ponds you can are public access. So you could call them recreation whether you're
well the I I appreciate the way you're thinking about this and if anything it can be used this line of reasoning can be used to communicate to our selectman that the
town has to step up or someone has to step up and and technically the it's open space and recreation Littleton breaks it Oh, but if you look at the CPA legislation, there's really only three buckets. Open
space and recreation, housing and historic. So, we could Oh, Andrew. Oh, sorry. Yeah. No, that's a great point, Carolyn. And um it I would completely agree. Anytime we can get more money over the open space end, I
would fully endorse that. Um, however, I mean, I think there is a solid case in a lot of instances where we could treat the eradication or the treatment of invasives as the preservation of open space as we have in the past. Uh, because when you look at it from an
ecological perspective, you're really preserving the land, you're preserving the water, the species, not only plant but also animal when you treat them for invasives or manually remove the invasives. So I think there is a strong
argument for um treating that as the preservation of open space in certain instances of course and I think we in the past we've always taken everything on a case- by case basis but uh I I I would say there there is a strong argument to kind of look at it from that
perspective as well but any more invasive I mean sorry any more open space money absolutely I agree thank you I think my argument Andrew is not against that. It's just it's it's
more an economic matter that we need to be we need to be uh we need to be um faithful to our ratios. Absolutely. So,
and like you were saying, maybe wait more toward recreation. That seems to be the largest category now. And we'll never get up to the millions of dollars in the open space bucket to purchase a piece of land, but that can always be bonded. I mean, Stephen Ubud is always
preaching that to us. You know, you can bond it. So, we could have a small down payment and then bond it for 20 years. So, maybe we don't need to be so worried about building that open space bucket so much. and we could allocate some weight some more for the the recreation because
that used to be the when we were doing the open space and recreation plan um Amy Green was at a meeting and uh you know we've there's a lot of developed
land and you sort of miss the opportunities but she said oh there are some very significant opportunities left to protect. So I don't know what she didn't wasn't
specific but you know Karen I'd like to say one more thing if people are okay talking more about um I think um the economic argument is that and I think maybe we should maybe we
should graph out our our graph out our projects in dollars over the years and see because Once the money is spent, we're not ever getting it back again. So if we if if we find that that
a certain percentage of our money over time equals a down payment on a piece of property, I'd rather not do treatment, Andrew, with respect. I mean, even on land, if you if you if you don't treat
and it's in a generation, it's going to come back. If you stop, if you pay all this money and keep the weeds at bay, uh the day you stop, they're going to start coming back. But if you protect a piece
of property by buying it and getting an easement and ownership of it in public and the title is protected in perpetuity, that's forever. And so the money that we invest over time, if it if it adds up to it would be a shame to
have all that money spent over generations if it's too large a percentage. I think we can I think we can sort of dial it in, but I want to be really careful that we're not calling things open space. Maybe it is healthy to call
it recreation. Um, so I I just want to say that we we should think about dollars over time. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we really do have to be mindful when it comes to putting away money. Um, I mean, bonding is always great, but we do want to have
a pretty sizable amount of money in the open space category because when the next piece of land comes up, it's not going to be a million dollars anymore. It's going to be multi-million, you know, many millions of dollars. So absolutely we we definitely want to kind of plan how uh you know we allocate that
money and you make a very good point that when it comes to invasives uh you know if you hit it one year and let it go the next your your work is essentially depleted you know so you really have to have a management plan and keep up with it but I mean it's kind of one of those tough situations where
if you don't do anything too though it's going to really hurt um you know the municipal and uh plant trust property that that's on. So, it's a tough balance, but I think you're right like taking it being a little more mindful of what we have in terms of money to spend
and then just making tough decisions when we have to moving forward. Uh it's it's kind of what we do. Jeff Fian always used to say or like the gatekeepers uh you know of that money and yeah, we do have to be mindful.
This bracken idea, could that be assigned to AI? Um because that's really interesting to see. Would be interesting to see what we spent and over whatever. And then of course we can always argue about how to specifically
um assign it to a category. But uh anyway, so yeah, we can work on that for next time. Um one of the other things that we were talking about last time was whether plans and surveys can be done. We've
done a few. Um, in 2012, there was an open space survey, a comprehensive agriculture planning program for community sustainability. No idea what that was, who that it didn't have any any
detail. It didn't have any detail of who was the applicant. It was just who it was only $5,000. So, of course, it was a long time ago. So, I don't know. I don't know what that was. Um the open space and recreation update in 2022
30,000 we funded that and um in 2016 the historical commission had an update the survey of the cultural resources. So and we also did the survey of the buildings at the at the orchard also recently. Yeah, if you want to consider that. So,
and then I pulled up like plans and surveys in other towns and a lot of them were invasive, you know, invasive species. So, and I looked in the legislature and everything and there's nothing in there about plans and surveys. So, I think again it's that
gray area. Well, but I think it comes down to this concern of balance, right, and verbs, you know, and like um anyway, so but once again, you know, maybe you know, this will come up on a
you know, application by application basis. And so maybe it is good to communicate to the clean lakes that it's not a continuous well, you know, funding source,
but not to stop coming to us either. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just have a question. What other possible sources of funds is there for the Queen Lakes Committee? I think I'm just thinking that
getting rid of invasives or doing what you can to get rid of invasives is an important thing and well that could be a line item but right is that going to go through town meeting
but I thought they were going to somehow come back from the money from the cell phone towers they better come back with a leaway to redirect it they were I don't know what that's what kind faded away because
you go through that. They you couldn't do that. So that was it was illegal. Yeah. Well, no. I mean, I object. I mean, that's what they said, but I don't think it should be characterized as illegal. It was an accounting. It was accounting best practice. And I
think we could have ignored it and, you know, seen what happened. But where's that, you know, where where does that money? No one's going to go to jail over that, you know. Um but where um where's the money cell phone money going
down? I did go to conservation commission or because like no pond the water department took all the money that had been set aside for that as I understand I might be I think that a lot of that revenue is actually gone away. I think that's the
issue is um we don't have that stream anymore uh to to tuck the money away. I think Oill um conservation we definitely I believe still get some money trickling in for that but in terms of the other towers I don't know if we're really getting that much of a substantial pull
anymore from those unfortunately um why not why not that's what I I don't know if usage of that tower is down or what but it's something that we should probably check into just to see I remember hearing
well in the planning board We've we seem like every year or two have applications to put additional, you know, um transponders on them and when they did the um the one on the
water tower by the lake, uh they did some work there. Um, so they're being used. Yeah. But the thing is it was it was really clearcut when it happened. I'm I'm cleaning and we talked we rung our hands over it many
times. Um, but the do came down not just on us but across the whole state for every town that was doing something similar. It it can't be the money can't be bookkeep. It has to go into an enterprise fund or something like that. I forget the language but the the the
revenue has to go into one stream and then to come out would require a town meeting vote I think. Okay. So it basically it it it turns into cash and I think the cash goes to the town the general fund
and it can be used however the so the town should theoretically use that cash for its intended purpose. Yeah, and I think that kind of circles back to that idea of like a management plan for the lakes. Like um our CLC friends
mentioned last time, you can't really peacemeal the management. You have to have an overall perspective of okay, I've got X number of lakes and these are the needs and then you can budget for it because until you have a clean uh scope of what you need to get done, it's hard
to really ask for that line item. We we um approved funds for um I forget the problem on Goldful Pond which is you
know off of New Road which really other than looking pretty at the base of the big hill doesn't have any I mean it's um and so I mean we we I don't know if we did the conservation permission to
Ander, do you remember? Was that for the water chestnut? Water? Yes. Yeah. So, we we've definitely done a lot of there um for the preservation of uh of that particular pond. Um I think it was clean lakes because um
John Folsson brought it to us. Well, whatever. I mean we we did it there just let's you know I you know and maybe in the context of these other claims that wouldn't have been ranked this high was a lot of money right right but um I don't know is there any way we
can get this money back to the you know to be used for clean lakes and if it has to go to a town meeting vote you think people would vote it down I mean they're voting it for it when you come through CPC and it would wouldn't be better would
come to the CPC through blended funds which so I mean who do we talk to Mr. income. Well, or the um administrator administrator start administrator. Yeah.
Yeah. I don't board or or make an initiative like a petition and do it on a ballot. I mean, if we could write the if we could find help. Um I think the
write a piece people could we could put on a ballot. I don't know what it would sound like. Yeah, I think the best way to get funding for this particular issue would be again to just have uh CLC work with
the town town administrator's office select board to really hit home that it's a problem and then to nail down okay we need to do X Y and Z have an actual plan in place because right now like we've just been discussing it's very peace meal where one lake might get more attention than the next we really
need to have uniform uh treatment and management for all the lakes and ponds and and then I mean I I think the town's people would support that if you were to add that to you know any number of departments um depending on who winds up getting in charge with the care of the lakes and ponds um I think if you were
to create a line item based off of that need I think the town's people would support that at you know town meeting when it comes to approving budgets but I think it's really just going to take a lot of um working together and planning and then developing that kind of path forward um and you know, this CPC is
just kind of one of those special avenues right now where that money is available. So, but yeah, it's just a matter of planning and we'll see how it goes. Great. Well, we'll certainly, you know, support see the Clean Lakes and whatever, but
it's true, it's kind of on them to get their budget. I mean, we could weigh in from our our end, but I don't know if we would be the torchbears for that. Yeah. No, I I agree. I mean it's not it's not up to us to solve this problem
but to help but in our but I think this discussion and you know if people become it becomes known and the thing that that drives me to think about it is the fact that there this money was there and that it wasn't
you know and um through through a administr how can we that was forced almost though oh I know I No. Um, so any last thoughts on that? We'll try to revisit it at some point, but um, I
think it's just good to get it out. I will say that Clean Lakes Committee has also come to the parks and wreck commissioners looking for money. That was a while ago and we were to the point
of, you know, do we raise the beach rates here and there and try to make it equitable for the people that are using the lakes. So, there was a lot, but we had a lot of discussions about how do we respond to
their request for money since they have no money. And I agree that Andrew's point that this is a bigger issue and it's unfortunate that this group seems to be running from group to group trying
to find funding. This is a large issue that shouldn't just be swept under different departments and meeting notes and someone really has to dig through and see how hard they are working to find funding.
Agreed. And isn't there some kind of search charge on one of the beach fees now or boat fees? Uh we put into motion and I think it went into effect this year to try to make up some money for the clean lakes
committee because they asked us for a lump sum and we all docked and said there's no way we don't have that kind of money. Right. Right. Yeah. That is Yeah. So, Kate Kate, I have a question for you. If um are you
are you in favor of a single stream or are you are you open to a comprehensive funding plan for clean lakes? Um I just wondered it's a large issue. Do you have do you
have a solution in mind or whatever? I would say it is a large issue. I agree that it shouldn't be lurking in different departments. It should be brought to the forefront and knowing that there was funding and then
there that dissipated, but now they're still looking for fun. This problem doesn't go away. This problem is going to keep coming back and coming back faster if we're not able to do anything with our lakes. So ideally
there would be, you know, a meeting of the minds and people are figuring out how does the town support this, I would think. And then where the money comes from, you know, that could be up for discussion, but I do think it should be
the town's folks should be aware that this is an issue. And I know as parks and w we were talking about, you know, could we even put an additional thing on our form when people are getting their
beach pass like kick in extra money to clean lakes, you know, we were going through all these like trying to figure out different ways we could get money for them. So it it is something that needs to be addressed.
Thank you. Well, we may become involved come budget season, so it's good. All right. Any last thoughts or shall we move on? Just have one other thing. Um, we'll go back to item number five on
our agenda. Um, oh, item number two, approved payment. We did that. I forgot to take it off. Um so we have a discussion of a potential sale of the Baptist church and um a past CPA project which was done for their
steeple clock. Did I forward the meet the letter from the Baptist church to everybody? No, I know the planning board got Yeah, it was it was addressed to the planning board select board and community preservation and I will forward that just so you can see it. But um the Baptist church is um the church
itself the um no longer able to support the church. So they're going to look to divms themselves of the property. Um kind of sad since they've been here for so long, but um they just wanted to kind of give everybody a heads up in case,
you know, who knows who's going to buy it um or what will happen. When I read the letter again that because you did forward me the letter, it said specifically if the town might be interested in the property or have any interest, we want to let you know what's
going on in case, you know, so I think they're thinking maybe the town might be interested. Um, and before you know, we should at least some pe some boards might want to go look at the building to see if the town might be interested. Um,
a dance hall. I I think it should be preserved. And, uh, I think the town should it should be up before the town whether people support it or not. And I think maybe a process like happened at 12
Robinson where the town buys it and then puts restrictions on it and then sells it. Uh so many examples of adaptive reuse of those churches. And uh there's also a developer in town looking for places to put affordable
senior housing. You know, there's all kinds of things. And um I'm not I'm not you know I don't know the process of who would come forward to us and say you know and I also think
this would be uh a um uh an example of something that could be bonded because presumably whatever goes on it could be a you know there could be an income spoon. the existence of the
sewer makes um adaptive use more um anyway once again I don't know who brings this forward um to us if it became an issue
um but uh this is the case where creative people are out and about and you maybe could find some um you know some way to keep the form in
my view to keep the form of the church there. There's very little left like you know we very little left of what was around the common there's likely to be less left as time goes on. So, uh,
it's it's interesting that as far as I know in the p in the recent past, a lot of Webster has been more or less in charge of the church and um, if anyone can reach out to him.
Yeah. I don't think he's going to be a help in he's happily with another congregation. Uh-huh. Well, no, but but to despise, you know, his his family is, you know, um Well, he's creative and he likes to preserve stuff.
Well, but but I I mean um you know, I'm I'm glad he's happily congregation and it's just a building, but it's a building that's sort of part of the structure of the center of our town. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was just there at a at a
meeting with Mr. and me and three of the church ladies and they were just saying to the selectman and and to me that they have to devest themselves of that of the
building and they are very interested in keeping the building and some public use in the building and did the select board have any ideas about that and um the road bush And
my kids dance there for years. I mean that that it could be, you know, a theater, a place for public gatherings. They have art exhibits for some kind of public use. And you know, nobody has any idea what that would be, but they're right at the
beginning of this process. they want to um um they they said they did not want this to be, you know, widespread throughout the town, but I think they've started a process where that's going to happen.
Um, so the the any mean so there were no no definitive things, but there was a there was a plan to see if somebody could come up with an idea of a direction to go in for another meeting like the one I was
in in October sometime. So was this who was at this meeting board Gary and um and me and ladies were you there were you there as an affordable housing I was there as an
okay I I found out about the meeting yesterday so it was kind that's great I'm thrilled to hear that that that's happened and did the select board members seem amendable to possibly in the public view. We're very sk Yeah. And I think the
public views they they um are very skittish about the town buying old buildings. For some reason, planning board has already said you're not going to do that, right? Well, it's affordable housing trust said we're never affordable housing building
that old. And this is even older. So, no, it's not as old as roughly 1900. Yeah. Well, I mean 1841 1841. I have to do an aside here that the primary benefactor for the church when it was built was Walter Robinson who you
know Robinson wrote when he was a prominent Yeah. And he at the time owned my house which was used briefly for the parsonage for the Baptist church. And right about the
time that the church was built, he sold my house and I assumed to raise money for the church. So Kate, I see your hand up. Yes. I I was just curious there is the
Littleton town common revitalization plan and if they've been involved that's the whole plan about making sure that we're following form code or whatever the form based code
and if this is been brought up to them because I mean the whole plan is to make Littleton common area It's a revitalized the historic town center into a lively pedestrianfriendly
mixeduse destination that seems like if the town was willing to buy this building that fits right in with what they're trying to create. Was that a committee? It's it was an offshoot of the master
planning thing and I think my wife is involved in it but I they're not active. I mean, the main thing was the sewer, like being the sewer. Um, but what was I gonna say? I can't remember. Um,
it I think back when 12 Robinson was for sale and no one was buying it and it was cheap. it was like $200,000 and there were several parties in town who came forward with ideas about what
to do with it if the town bought it. So if this is publicized, there very well may be people coming forward. And I I thought their ideas weren't completely um feasible, but it did involve having
an event space, you know, and um people love these kind of things for event space. there's parking, there's, you know, you're not impinging, I mean, for the common in general, you're not impinging on, you know, neighbors um any more than a church would be.
But anyway, I think Rob Brad is a really great example because I've been I've been to art things there. I've been to dance things there. I've been to square dances there and the the church on the corner there, but the PCA, what do they call it? the par
I mean that's so it' be interesting to look up this revital department so think about that yeah there you go yeah we'll have to pull out that revitalization plan and see if the well once again did Sarah jump to the
other topic oh which was about the clock face oh yeah I'm curious about how that gets So, do you want to talk about it? No. M can I have Well, I don't have very much information on it. Well, I have I couldn't find anything.
So, we found some online about So, CPA restrictions there if So, the Community Preservation Act requires that a permanent restriction be placed on any real property interest acquired using CPA funds. So, we did not
acquire the building. was simply rehabilitated the clock face. So I don't believe and Andrew you can weigh in on this. Um I don't believe that we are the town is required to have a preservation restriction because we didn't acquire
it. We just rehabilitated the clock phase given this statuto. Okay. So um so if we acquired it we would have to have a historic preservation projection. However, the act is not specific as to whether a historic preservation
restriction is required when CPA money is expended on a historic preservation project, which that was the clock tower was a project. Many towns have chosen to require a preservation restriction when any amount of CPA funds are awarded for
rehabilitation or restoration of an historic property. So, it seems like it's in the gray area. We could if this committee decides I think we could put a restriction on if but the question I have is do we just do we just have the
authority put a restriction on the clock tower and not the building because we didn't use CPA funds for one of the one of the subjects that came up was um the church contacting the historical society commission and having
the building evaluated as a historical building and seeing if it would make sense to um get a preservation thing on the on the building. So, I think that's going to happen that they'll contact
Oh, good. Oh, good. I mean, that they were very interested in that because they want to keep they they the ladies are very interested in preserving the building. That's great. So, that's really good news because we could have evaluated. We have a consultant that can do that.
We can put a restriction on it and the historical commission can hold it as long as the town doesn't own the building. If the town owns the building, a nonprofit that has that authority has to hold the restriction because the town can't hold
a restriction on itself. It's a conflict of interest. Okay. So, it is a problem because a lot of places don't want to hold it. A lot of nonprofits, there are two or three nonprofits that will do it, but they charge like $50,000 to do to hold the restriction.
Some of them we say, "Well, we don't want to hold do it. We don't want to hold that restriction on that property." If they don't want to do it, they don't have to. So, but while the town doesn't own it, in fact, I think at this moment, while it's still owned by whoever, the
church, I believe a restriction could be put on it. And the historical commission could have that restriction, but if it gets if the town buys it, then somebody else would have to hold that restriction. But there could be a, you know,
nonprofit entity created just for that building that could hold the restriction. As long as they meet some sort, they have to have it in their bylaws or something that that is part of what they do. Have to look at the law. Well, in the
meantime, if the church came to us and said, "We'd like money to do a historic evaluation for the purposes of preserving our church." Is that fund?
We probably Sorry to jump in. Um, given the latest lawsuits when it comes to funding church projects, we probably probably wouldn't want to fund anything like that when
it's in possession of the church. Um, but just to circle back around to um, you know, the restriction being placed on it while the church holds the property. Um, it's actually common practice for most towns to specifically put a restriction because it's private
historic. you know, private historic resource. Um, so in terms of us wanting when I think we probably most definitely want to put a restriction on before a sale is made, um, you know, that the town would hold to protect, you know, the town's people's money that we put
into it because I think it was like $25,000. Um, well, that's Yeah, go ahead, Andrew. Sorry. Go ahead. Um, oh, I'm sorry. And there are examples like in the town of Lexington, they redid um the exterior of the first
parish church um many years ago and uh they put a historic deed restriction on it um to protect that interest in the property. So it seems like it's even more common place that a a municipality will put that restriction on a privately
owned historic resource to protect that interest. So did they acquire that? Did the town acquire that property? Nope. It was just by virtue of them putting money into it to protect what they had um essentially put money into
to to protect it. Do you know what they did to the property or you don't know? It looks like it was exterior preservation. Okay. So, we So, that's my qu that's my issue with the clock tower. All we did was put money into the clock tower. We did not do any exterior preservation on
the church. So at the moment I I don't have the answer but I don't know whether you know without [Music] if we can only preserve the clock tower. I I think it it because we did preserve
a piece of the building. In most instances, uh the town that places the restriction on the building will cover the entire structure because in practicality, if you were to put a restriction just on the tower itself, it really wouldn't carry much um it it
wouldn't be really workable. I I agree with you, but I think we should get that question answered. Well, I think just to jump in, I'm skeptical that um we can put that on after the fact without the owner's permission. And
um since initially there was a lot of work done to try to make this happen and um I wasn't able to find a deep restriction on it. So, it's possible that stuff was
written at the time about specific to the clock. Um, and I was on the committee at that time and I remember some work to being done about it, but it's possible it never got filed. So, this is very much after the fact and
that I guess the question would be what's in it for the Baptist church. If they're trying to sell the property, they don't want it encumbered in any way. any lawyers can invite advise them not to engage with the with this. So, we can't force it on them. We can't. But he said they're interested
in doing it. Oh, so um actually it looks like we're legally required to put a restriction. It says under Mass General Law Chapter 44B subsection 12, if the owner of a historic resource that is not publicly owned receives funds from the Community
Preservation Fund, the owner shall grant a permanent restriction to the city or town. All right. This is getting confus It's getting confusing, Andrew, because what I'm reading is that if that a permanent restriction is required on any real property interest acquired using
CPA funds, it looks like not only acquired but also preserved. So if you do any preservation work, so the C the community preservation coalition, which I just read a minute ago, a couple few minutes ago said the act is not specific as to whether a
preservation restriction is required when CPA money is expended on a historic preservation project that's outside of acquisition, which is what we did to this building. We only, you know, worked rehabilitated the clock. We could we could have made an agreement
that they agreed to and signed. But you don't have such an agreement. We don't have one. I don't know if I'm looking in the right place. Yeah, that's the thing. I don't know. Like the town the town doesn't h have this stuff. You know, it's like the up to people to keep it. Maybe they have it.
Well, I wonder if the Baptist church they're not aware of it. They didn't even know what I They knew that the the town had done something to the tower, but they had they couldn't remember what it was. My hunch, and I could be wrong, back in 2012 when this work was done, that the
CPC, our commission, this commission didn't know that a preservation restriction was required that they just went, you know, approved the money and the work was done. And they had no idea that you assumed that the church was to be an ongoing forever entity.
No, it was. Something was written. Really? You think something like a restriction? Yeah, something with a sign here type business. How do you know that? Do you know? I was there. Oh, you remember that? This is This is my work computer. You remember what it what it said generally?
Well, that it would that it would encumber them to, you know, not demolish the steep bulk or whatever. Oh, just just the clock. What about the rest of the building? That's like nothing around the rest of the building. What? nothing about the rest of the building. See, that's my concern.
Well, yeah, you could pick pick apart and say, well, you know, if you demolish the building and you sus, how can you suspend a clock or whatever? But anyway, it seems like that there are a lot of paths
and we just need to start yeah, you know, working the phone so to speak and get people aware and uh but I I'm curious about the process about putting the restriction on in general. Is it
Linda? Is it just the commission says we're going to put a restriction on this or I mean how does that work? No. So, um, if it's deemed historic, then we can, well, the current owner has to
agree to it. Right. So, they would have to agree to it and then we could write up a a restriction and then if it's a permanent restriction, the Massachusetts Historical Commission has to sign off on it. If it's a what they what's the
temporary or not a temporary, a term restriction, which is less than 30 years then the mess has start one of the women said that she thought there was a state historic registration of the building that it was registered somehow as a historical
that's probably which doesn't yeah that just means that it was identified as historic that's not a preservation restriction yeah okay and I did look um through the registry of deeds and didn't see anything specifically recorded
So I don't believe that there's anything in place um currently. Yeah, we looked too. I didn't see anything. Is it just land records? I mean, is there any other database? If you go in through the register of deeds,
is that Yeah, I just found the project ID number looking on the community preservation.org website. I don't know if that gives us any What What do you have there? I found CPA
projects detailed report for the Baptist Baptist Church clock tower in Littleton. Project ID is 32919. If it does say repairs to historic
Baptist church clock tower, was this done in 2011? Is this the right project? Yeah, it does have his it CPA funding is in historic bucket of $25,700. Um, that's the total cost. And for
project category, it was marked as historic. That's on Is there anything on there about a preservation restriction? I think you have to you're supposed to go back in and check that off. I don't see that. Yeah. See, they don't when you put a
project into the database, you don't upload anything. It's just typing it in. So, it's not like they have a copy of it. Yeah. Attaching documents, which would be nice. So, he said he remembers there was something signed. Yeah. I don't remember. Or that was something drafted. I don't remember.
I wonder if they have it. These They don't remember seeing anything. These They don't know it. Was John Ledger on the You remember if John Ledger was? He might. He was. Yeah, he keeps a lot of stuff. Well, they'll ask him. Let's ask him.
This brings up a a question about records for CPC, accounting help for CPC, you know. I mean, we're in charge of all this money and yet it's just it's all in my filing. I mean, from what since I've been here, I have it all in my filing cabin. I just keep it there,
but eventually when I leave and what am I going to do? plop it on someone's desk, it's just going to get thrown away. It is interesting in this case. Why? And could we encourage the um Baptist church people
who are interested in preserving their building to come forward and apply for a historic, you know, designation, they should go to the historical commission is where they should head. The the other thing I don't know I mean
this happens to so many of these congregations all over the country and I remember years ago in Lex in the center working with a congregation and beautiful building right in the canal wasn't historic but um it was shocking
how little financial support they had and this was years ago they said basically eight or 10 families support our whole and we have a preschool that pays bills and that type of thing. But anyway, um when these congregations
dissolve, uh who gets the money? I don't think it's the same, um you know, land development imperative that we would expect um from some other kind of building.
I did ask about their records. Yeah. um as a historical society I thought the archive but there is an American Baptist society okay and and L Webster have told me all their documentation will go to them so whether the money would go back to that as well
I don't all I'm saying is that in terms of a purchase it may you know it's it's not a typical thing where you want every last dollar out of you know because where is it you're not getting you're not going to benefit directly Right. Unless they were buying, you know,
unless they were because that that congregation is dissolving. Is that the story? They didn't really say that. They didn't say that that um the congregation is really small. Yeah. And they can't afford to keep the building. Yeah.
They would be happy to rent it for services, right? You know, rent a room in it for services after it whatever it turns into. That might be what they use the money for then.
Um, and there for Well, they were sharing it with a Korean. I've never been inside all these years. Walked by it, lived by it. Never been in. It's open Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Great.
And the um I think the Council of Aging closes it down and that's why it's open. So when it's open, you can walk around. Okay. I just did. It's a pretty sanctuary. Yeah, it is. It is.
Well, one question I have is if we do a evaluation of the building for historic significance, who's going to pay for that evaluation? Now, you know, the the administrative funds that we have that we never understand. Isn't there like something
that if if the CPA wants to do due diligence on a project, we're supposed to be able to use those admin funds. I have to look it up every time we talk about it. And I don't know whether like if we if we could do something like that for
the Baptist church thinking that the town might buy it. We'd have to get a ruling on that. Well, didn't we give the Conservation Commission a a sort of revolving fund for things like property surveys? Yeah.
Um, but it you can't do historic. It's only conservation and housing. They don't allow it for historic, which they should. So, that's something we'll have to figure out if we want to do evaluation.
Somebody has to pay for it. But we need um people to come forward with applications. So that's what with applications to us for whatever. Yeah. If we want to do I mean we can't make our own application. So No, but we can go to we can ask them if
they are willing to come to Yeah, we could submit it. Oh, you could. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um but not for fall tming. That's closed. It would have to be for spring tming, which is going to come up quick, right? But we can certainly do that. We can do,
you know, we can um have a proposal for an evaluation of the building and development of a preservation restriction. Do that. Interesting. You know, I'm sorry. I know. I'm sorry.
flip about my hard copy. You seem I have like 10 memory sticks my desk like paper. You don't have like boxes of paper in your attic or something? [Music]
I've thrown away so many eighth grade science documents. [Music] That's why the paper dumpster is full when I go to tectonics continues or hits. Um, so we didn't have anything to pass
in for town meeting. So we have nothing on the town meeting which is okay. Okay. So everything will come in for the sprint. Um, can I just say that the the times that I've called um CPA headquarters in
Boston with a question about a gray area, the answer has been you can do whatever the board decides. Right. Or your local if you decided to do it, it's legal. I've I've lo that answer more than once. Yes. Or pass it by your local town council.
Right. That too. Well, but but well and presumably because it's voted on, you know, like in our case, anything that we do is voted on. And like you say, if you read the if you
read the actual law, it's more about the setup of things than the the actual what you can use it for. It's it seems to have been intentionally vague to allow people to make local decisions.
Yeah. And it's pretty vague, Jeff. Also, in terms of bookkeeping, it says that we're supposed to keep a record of all our projects, which could be just a list. And I think we have that, which Yeah, but it it's great until you really got to look something up.
All right. Okay. Um, any final thoughts on that? All right. So, um I don't know if anyone's heard of any projects. I have not except for what we heard from Clean Lakes last time, but we have a we have a
ways to go. Um just for the sake of the minutes. Yeah. Um number six, continued discussion and future project applications that are on the specificity and general language. Um did we embrace that agenda item?
Yeah, that was the whole clean lakes. Okay, I'll say we we kind of skipped over that. Good. Good. Yeah. Uh future meeting schedule third Wednesday
of October, which is the the 15. Um same time, same place, same format. [Music] Carolyn, you said October 15th, correct?
Yes. Is that right? I don't have a calendar in front of me. Uh, I'm looking at the calendar. Hang on. Must be 1 8:15. Yeah, that is the third Wednesday of October. Yes, that's it then. All right. Anyone have any last? Look at
everybody putting it into their phones except Sam. Sam's writing his song on the paper. Very much unless otherwise. Unless otherwise. Unless the peach social. Yeah. No, no peach. No. Apple social. How did the peach social go?
It rain. It was raining in the afternoon. So, we had to move inside. One time it's raining. One time. Exactly. Yes. A lot of people were there. Yeah, but we had Yeah, we had a full house. It was nice. We have a motion to adjourn.
I second it. All right, we'll do a quick roll call. Mitt, yes. Linda, yes. Yes. Carolyn's, yes. Sam, yes. Jeff, yes. Andrew, yes. Kate, yes. Okay, great. All right, thank you
everybody.