I'm going to go ahead and start tonight's meeting. It's April 30th, 2026. Littleton Conservation Commission. We're here to discuss violation of an existing enforcement order at 8 Blood Road for non-permitted dredging.
John, I see that you're here with us. Thank you for attending. The goal today is to we have a couple different votes and would like to talk to the commissioners about it. And so one is to vote to delegate and
empower our conservation agent, which is Tim, to issue tickets for violations. This is something that is very standard, but was not in the original enforcement order. So I would like to open up discussion to commissioners if they have
any questions on that, discussions on on that, and then ultimately if someone would like to put forth that vote as well. Just for clarity, Sarah, this is a vote to empower Tim to do so, not necessarily to direct him to do so to the extent
that we direct him to do so, that would be a different vote. Yeah. So my understanding previously, it's a vote to delegate and empower. Okay. Tim, feel free to correct me if that is No, that's that's right. That's that's
what council said. Okay. Delegate specific to this one incident or delegate in general? Specific to this. All right, Jay. Yeah. I'm just moving Kyle over so he can join us. >> Amber, I'm having problems There you go.
Okay. Oh, Kyle, you declined. So, Amber, if you can move Kyle over, that would be great. Okay, so discussion on this? Sarah, I already tried once. And I got the same response. Okay.
Well, I No comments from me. I mean, it seems like thing something that we should probably think about doing in general every time we ratify an enforcement order going forward. But, I think it's sort of implicit that we expect Tim or Lauren to be able to do that. Um and if
we need to formalize that, then we should formalize it. Okay. Yeah, it's not very often we have to do this, fortunately. So, if someone would like to make a motion if there's no further discussion. I'll move that the Conservation
Commission authorize the conservation agents to issue tickets in relation to the enforcement order at eight Blood Road. Okay, do we have a second for that? Second. Okay. Thank you, Carl.
Um we don't have Andrew, so um I will go ahead and do the roll call vote. Um Carl? Sarah, before you do, one quick question. Sure. Um Chase sounded like you said agent plural. So, would this empower both Tim and
um um Austin and Lauren. Yeah, I specifically chose conservation agent to keep it broad, not just specific to Tim or Lauren. Okay. Okay, just wanted to understand that. Yep. Thank you. And I believe the motion
stated conservation agent. Okay. I I thought I heard plural, but that's fine. I have what I Thank you. All right, so let's do roll call. Carl? I'm Elburg, I. Ed? Ed Folsom, I.
Chase? Chase Carvey, I. Myself, Sarah Seward, I. Kyle, are you able to speak? I know you're here. Um Oh. Okay. Well, the the motion carries
unanimous for four. Okay. So, um next conversation and John, we're going to ask you to to talk if you'd like to as well in a little bit. So, we're here to also have a discussion to vote to amend the enforcement order. Um
and this is basically adding in the conditioning what the commission already discussed during a previous open hearing in March. Um following DEP's comments and request that no docks be installed.
Um and that there's no boating in the area and that those docks specifically were out during the dredging. So, that takes into account those specific docks. So, I would like to have some discussion on on that. So, it's basically
tightening up um our enforcement language. Um Sarah, could we hear from I'm just curious. I know Tim, you had sent us an email with sort of your observations. Would you want to sort of talk us through those?
You want just like a a recap? Yeah, if you wouldn't mind. Sorry. I'm afraid I I may have missed things at some point and want to make sure I'm doing it with as much information as I can. Um so where do I start? Um last week I I
contacted John on Tuesday before the meeting and let him know that um this item was actually going to be continued. Um and and during that conversation, um, John was, you know, frustrated with with uh, things taking a little while to um,
to come to a resolution. And so he said he was going to uh, install the dock and um, so he could put in his boat that weekend. So that would be this past weekend. Um, and so we we uh, let him know that, you know, if you
do this, it's in violation of the the cease and desist uh, EO and the commission may choose to implement uh, ticketing and and fines. And so, um, Monday we went over on uh, Lake Matawanakee to to take a look and
um, and we saw that there there was a dock and a boat in the water. Um, and so I I spoke with I was out of the office on on Tuesday and and uh, uh, some of yesterday when I got into the office I I called John, um,
he said he wanted to talk. He called me and uh, I wasn't [clears throat] there, so I called him back and and we talked a bit uh, and he said that the the dock is not in there right now. And so he he sent over a photo of of uh, of the current conditions when we had our conversation yesterday and the dock
was on the uh, the shoreline on the beach. Okay, thank you for that. Yep. And to be clear, our enforcement order we discussed it extensively, but the written form of the enforcement order we issued that before we had MassDEP
comments, so Right. the written enforcement order doesn't currently say, even though we've talked about it extensively, that installing the dock and traversing that area with a motorboat are prohibited activities, correct? Right, it doesn't specifically
that out. I think just in the in section C there's the general, you know, all activities within the the wetland resource area and the buffer zone should cease and desist. Um it's it's not Well, like you said, yeah, we didn't hear from DEP for a while after we issued the enforcement order on
on what their recommendations were and one of that a part of that being um a no disturbance um time period there. Um during one of the March meetings, Chase you specifically uh called out you said, you know, I want to set the expectation that um there's there's no
new docks going into the water that weren't there um during the time of of the dredging um and and no boating. >> [snorts] >> But again, that's not specifically in the in the enforcement order. Um and so the amending would would to be just a to
add specifics into that enforcement order just so it's a little more clear. Any other commissioners have questions? Or com- comments on this? So, we're not saying that we're going to start ticketing tonight or tomorrow. I think what we're starting to say is that we're
trying to amend this to allow the language to go forward which incorporates DEP's input all along. Yeah, I um more than a little bit frustrated that what we had discussed was explicitly
um contravened. However, I I'm willing, I think right now, to to just go forward with revising the enforcement order to make it explicitly clear that putting the dock in and
traversing that area with a boat is not acceptable. Um I'm I don't think there was any ambiguity, but um for the sake of just establishing the correct record and making sure everybody's on the same page,
I can live with that for now. Okay. I would like to hear from the applicant though or the not the applicant but the property owner. So John, I've just changed it online so you're allowed to chat. So
if you're here, um feel free to chime in. Yes, can you hear me? Yep, thank you. Great. Um yes, I I put my boat in cuz I want to take my kids out on the water. I mean, we live on a lake. We pay a certain amount of money in taxes. I planned on
parking the boat at my neighbor's. Their dock was not ready yet. So it stayed there for 2 days until I was able to put it at my neighbor's dock, which is you know, three doors down the other direction. So it's completely out of the buffer zone. Um
Also the or sorry, not buffer zone, the whatever the area you're calling it. I mean, there's fishermen in that area every single day. It's kind of like it's not really that, you know, me parking my boat there isn't going to affect anything.
Um what what do we need to do to get this over with? I mean, can I make phone call? Like what do we need to do to get this over with? Yep, so John, that's a great that's a great question. As you know, we meet next Tuesday. No, we meet on the following
after town meeting. Um we meet again and we're hoping that prior to that we'll have some information back from um like Green International and others. So it would be hopeful that we can go
forward with that meeting. So, um I mean, is there a list of people I could call to try to speed things along? Like, I could make a call to Green International or whoever. No, not really. These things don't necessarily come together quickly, John. I think we're
close to having the information together. As you heard a couple weeks ago, we needed to get some information from town council, which we did with respect to restoration expectations and services in kind and so on. Um my understanding is
Tim and Lauren have reached out to Green. We have or expect to have in short order a proposal from them to do the scope of work that MassDEP recommended, and these things all just take time.
And Technically, it's I thought part of what John, with that we would like to keep the ball rolling. So, prior to that next hearing, any and all information that we have for that will give to you or Tom and Lauren
will give to you so that we can, as you say, start to get this rolling more quickly. I thought we established that spending any time any money or time with Green International was just kind of a a waste of time. Uh resources. I think that was how you
characterized it. Um and I I appreciate that perspective. One of the things though that we heard from town council is that our ability to, let's say, accept services in kind or accept restoration outside of the impacted area, um the further we get from the
impacted area, the more limited it is. And the recommendation from town council was that we at least understand the scope and magnitude of effort associated with following through on the recommendations that MassDEP had, which is what we are currently doing. And so
we solicited solicited >> Can I I don't want to Can I interrupt that this is discussion that would happen during the next meeting? This This meeting has been posted as discussion on the enforcement
order. So John, while I'd like to carry on that discussion, that's not how it's been posted. So we're here um for another reason, and that's basically making sure that there hasn't been violations and us going forward to
amend the enforcement order. Okay. I mean So commissioners >> Anything I say is not going to help me out here. Excuse me? I said anything more I say is not going to help me out here. Okay commissioners, so we're going to come back to this discussion of the
amended enforcement order. Does anyone have any questions? Or thoughts? Or motions? I mean before a motion, I'll tell you I'm comfortable amending the enforcement order. Okay, and I would like to make note that
Kyle is back for this as well and with us. Okay. Um so formally we'd like to have a motion to amend the enforcement order. Do you have anyone have language with that? Or do you want me to use what I stated
earlier? I can give you one, Sarah, as long as there's no comments from anyone. Um I'll move to amend the enforcement order associated with the Eight Blood Road to explicitly include uh a prohibition on installation of
docks and traversing the area with motorboats. Can I ask though so we're putting an enforcement order on John. >> [clears throat] >> What's to stop other folks as he said this fisherman in there and in that spot
and so forth. We don't have the authority to enforce that. The ability, whatever the right word >> Yeah, I I would say we don't probably don't have the ability. I think we probably do have the authority. Yeah, that's why I changed my word. Yeah. So if we're putting this limitation on John
aren't we kind of I don't know again I wrong words but are we kind of being a little unfair? And I realize unfair is probably not the right word but um you know where I'm going with it?
We're we're putting an enforcement on John but we're not putting an enforcement on Sam who who wrote his boat down and and drove rather his boat down into there to go fishing and they both would accomplish the same thing. If there's going to be damage,
they're both going to cause damage. You know, I'm I'm just trying to be fair and honest or fair and something I don't know. My words are terrible >> And I agree as John stated it's it's hard to regulate someone from coming into that somewhat of a cove area as
well. Yeah. I agree with you Ed but I I think we have to do what we can do right to minimize traffic in there and unfortunately the teeth that we have is the know that we can keep
Mr. Scott from traversing back and forth however many times. Now, why are we punishing me and what is going to hurt the wetlands here? Nothing's going to hurt anything. It's 5 ft underwater. You know? It's I believe it's the disturbed area underneath and that's what DEP why they specifically and I'm
not speaking for DEP maybe Tim can chime in on that cuz he spoke with them numerous times that by having you know inboards outboards in that area doesn't allow that to settle. I think it's different having a rowboat or fishing
boat but versus you know pontoons and power boats or wake wake surf boats things like that. So I recognize it is a gray area. Fishing boats are motorboats just for the record. Excuse me? Fishing boats are motorboats. Yeah, no I meant like a ski boat. Sorry,
I should have clarified that. We also got to kind of think like what are what are we doing here? Do you guys ever just look in the mirror and be like this is insane? This whole thing is insane. Well, I think illegal dredging some of us can honestly look in our in the
mirror. You know, I As yeah, saving the town saving the town money potentially a lawsuit from a kid Mr. Scott, Mr. Scott, can I give you some advice? I I think you probably had the right of it a couple minutes ago when you said that more is not helpful
for you here. Mhm. Yeah. I agree. All right. Can I move to make the vote on the enforcement order? I'll stay out of the area. You can't but but we can. >> [laughter] >> We can. And in fact Chase you already did make that motion which and then I
asked questions about it. Sorry. So typically so a motion is on the floor and then we have discussion. People can amend or put forth a new motion. Um if you want to redraft it or put anything else in there but we have a
motion on the floor. You can accept it deny it or amend the language of it. What would you like to do? Commissioners. I second Chief's motion.
I Sorry, I didn't hear you, Kyle. I second I second the motion as read, the Chief. Okay. So, we have a motion that has been seconded. I will do roll call vote. Carl? Carl Melberg, aye. Ed?
Ed Pols, no. Chase? Chase Gerbig, aye. Kyle? Kyle Maxwell, aye. Sarah Seward, aye. 1 2 3 4 4 to 1 majority carries. >> You're missing Mike.
Oh. Sorry, I didn't even >> I'll I'll have to abstain. I arrived late. I apologize. I didn't hear the previous discussion. Okay. Michael, did you So, you didn't hear the proposal, the amended that Chase put forth?
I I did hear that, but uh really very little uh before that. Okay. So, I'm going to put you in as an abstention. I I think that's best. Okay. Okay. So, I'm just making notes here.
Um so, four in favor, one against, and one abstention. So, that will carry. Um okay. So, that is the goal of today, I believe, unless commissioners have any thing that they would like to add to that
to this discussion. We've made two motions that both carried. Okay. If we don't have any further discussions, it's 5:50. May I have a motion Can I add one thing? Yep. Go ahead. Just just to clarify, um
the first vote was just to to delegate and empower myself to issue the tickets. You guys did not vote to to start issuing tickets to Mr. Scott. >> Yep. That's correct. >> Just want to make that clear. Yep. No, we just put forward the mechanism so going forward, if that needs to be done,
you're empowered and delegated to do so. Okay. Okay, with that said, do we have a motion to adjourn? So moved. Okay. Thank you. Roll call vote, Carl. Carl Milberg, I. Ed. Ed Folsom, I.
Chase. Chase Kerbeck, I. Kyle. Kyle Maxfield, I. Michael. Michael Livingston, I. And Sarah Seward, I. Thank you. Good night, everyone.