##VIDEO ID:dTyL8fDPmfs## everyone to the Littleton Conservation Commission meeting of February 4th 2025 I'm going to officially open the meeting um we actually don't have a super heavy agenda tonight um have an administrative discussion several I think regular recurring items and then we've got three potential items to hear but I think Amy most of those are actually not coming in right actually they are all coming in but um at least Bruce ringal might be a little bit late for the hey Corner start time okay sounds good he's gonna he's he's in Stow he's gonna text me as soon as he's out oh yeah right I saw that he ends at the same time he's supposed to start here we'll see how on time Stow is relative to us um okay so let's start with the administrative discussion is there are there any additional items that folks would like to cover in the administrative items I was G to add something on land use permits and in-person meetings good and then let's jump into the minutes looks like we've got minutes for January 21st 2025 no any additions Corrections or deletions to those minutes I've said a couple of very minor things um under 15 Powers it says let's see so continued enforcement order 15 power Roe it just says Megan instead of Mr mgan and then the second to last sentence it says it was also pointed out that Mr McAn schedule it should be Mr mcan's apostrophe s schedule and one other thing in the CPA um application discussion at the beginning let's see the final sentence it just says CPC for invasive plan management but it should be plant management invasive plans it sounds like a government bureaucracy problem yes oh please not what you're working on okay that's what I'm really working on okay so any other comments on those the can we get a motion for the minutes as amended I'll make a motion that the commission approve the meeting minutes of January 21st 2025 as amended second roll call vote uh Chase Chase K guy Michael Michael I Carl I'm M eyy Kyle Kyle Max Sarah Sarah Seward I all right uh unanimous in favor very good uh Amy you want to take us through the administrative discussion then uh I'll KCK it right back to Andrew if you have anything to add on the uh CPC stuff so yeah so um nothing new on the walkway I'm still Gathering quotes for that application still plenty of time to get it into the CPC for the uh the March meeting uh the invasive plan proposal I did forward that to Long Lake neighborhood association for their uh potential support uh but I will plan on getting that to the CPC for the meeting on um it's the 3D Wednesday in February so that'll be uh considered at that meeting and then the walkway will be at the March meeting but we'll follow the same procedure where I'll get the quote I'll bring it to you guys if the number is comfortable I'll then forward it to llna for their Buy in and then it'll go off to CPC for town meeting and Andrew do you do you have the support you need at CPC to present this is there I I assume you will be there in presenting it but do you is there any value to you in having any other commission members there to speak to it I I think that would certainly be helpful um if anybody would be able to attend um otherwise I think we we should be good I mean it's out a little week a couple weeks um what I would ask you to do is one if you could circulate an email to Amy so she can distribute it to everyone about the timing of that I I think it would be good but it's not a trivial sum of money um and somehow in my mind the bigger the number the more important it is to to show up and truly support it so absolutely so that'll be um I believe the 19th so it's a couple weeks out okay I won't be available for that unfortunately but I'm in the same boat but hope hopefully someone can go because I think that would be helpful yeah I would have liked to have been there but otherwise I'm happy to represent the projects Andrew are they remote hybrid Zoom uh remote uh hybrid and uh sorry iners and remote oh okay if it's a kind of hybrid one then yeah definitely let us know I might be able to be available for that I'll just need to be out of town so oh perfect and Andrew I was sure if you saw that email from Natalie at was it Weston Samson about the borings they want to do I I did see that yeah I wasn't sure if that was about the boardwalk I mean the the walkway or if it was something else on site that they were doing that for okay yeah I I had no idea because it was it was suspiciously along the path and I don't know why they wouldn't need borings or samples in the pond so all right I'll I'll see what's going on yeah I was looking at it today and I'm like what is this for you're the you're the Geotech guy you ever needed borings to support a walkway not what we're talking about I don't think I mean yes the short answer is yes the long answer for this would be I wouldn't think soar hand stuff but yeah yeah that's like even hand augers would probably be sufficient in this area not sure we need to be collecting blow counts and density for a foot pack but well Steve Yani was more than happy to motor on down there and take boring like whoa wait a minute yeah oh I'm sure all right okay I I'll let you know Andrew what I hear back on that perfect thank you um on the the shade tree committee draft bylaw thing I had no update on that I hadn't heard back from Matt yet if if he or uh the shade tree committee can come in wants to come in on the 18th um so that that was just a placeholder to remind you all um because I'm sure you've all read it and commented on it and we're all set to go I'm halfway through it but thank you for I'm impressed assuming I hav't looked [Laughter] at um Chase did you want to just summarize the uh the neog yeah I I mean I think I'll expand that to to cover the other topics at the um at the budget meeting on whatever day that was Saturday so first the select Bo meeting last week regarding niag lot 107a um as we planned there were no votes taken um the select board was briefed on what we would propose to do with it their ask was twofold um one that we coordinate with the water department to see if what we are proposing is consistent with what the water department needs my understanding is it's not that it if it isn't entirely consistent that it's it's unacceptable to them but in the select board's Ideal World We Come forward with what we would like to carve off and the water department concurs with that um one of the questions is if there were to be some water treatment infrastructure at lot the northern portion that would not be conservation controlled um what would that mean in terms of getting access to that area and does the boundary that we defined constrain use of that in some way that could be problematic that said just to be clear should anyone from the public actually be watching I my understanding is Amy like this is you know a decade out or more in the water Department's mind that that was my impression too have you had any luck trying to coordinate with Nick about a discussion or no and it's entirely my fault Nick did exactly what he was supposed to do and I got a follow up with Nick so um so that's item number one they would like us to come back they the select board would like us to come back after having met with the water department and tell them that everybody's happy with the line that we drew the other piece and I think we're all quite familiar with this is that uh the process by which we might take care custody and control is not entirely obvious to everyone and uh select board gave us leave to utilize Town Council resources uh on the town's Collective behalf to come up with what the process needs to be um and I need to reach out to IA I I assume I should reach out to IA and like CC Tom Amy does that sound right that's yeah that's what I would suggest um and get that going with Town Council and town Administration and and I was thinking that it might be worth double check with her them at the same time um there is a old well on the 107a I have no idea if it could even be restored or not um but I would be curious Town Council to weigh on on whether or not a well could be put on conservation land I can talk to you chase about that later okay maybe me inste just email you um but that said and no votes were taken I think I understood the select board to be supportive of it as long as we get the details sorted out um the plan is to be back in front of them not next week but probably two weeks after that with this all buttoned up buttoned up in what regard well buttoned up ideally that the water department agrees that the boundary that we've drawn work for them if they need something to the north we don't need to change anything and we have a legal Avenue resed to the extent that the boundaries don't work for the water department I would expect we our group conservation would take it up two weeks from now and see what we think about making changes or not making changes and simply tell taking it to the select board and saying we disagree you guys have to pick one okay so does what does this do with quote unquote public input and that came up as a big deal right where now they were they said they wanted input from the town and what the town would like to see this parcel used for I don't want us to get you know be the bad guys here all of a sudden where we aren't the ones letting the town have a voice because the select board has told us to do something 100% agree and um actually put that exact question to them I think they envisioned let's say three-ish weeks from now when we meet with them that could be an opportunity to hold a formal public hearing I think one of the select board members described it as akin to a planning board hearing okay um but I think my understanding was they don't expect a long drawn out process no and that that sounds right I just there's a lot of concern that people aren't aware of the process and what's actually happening so yep still want to be the we want to put it on our agenda for like the next meeting and like go ahead and have our own open oh that's a really good idea idea yeah well it's it's on the agenda so I'm not you know yeah but maybe a specific line item maybe yeah I think actually a meeting time yeah meeting time and a a vote to be taken on Conservation Commission support for dot dot dot um any other questions on 107a if not I'll transition to the budget good thank you for that um budget discussion Amy I'll let you cover the um let's say the what we proposed what I want to make sure everyone is aware of is that one of the questions we were asked was whether or not the professional staff and the conservation department would be willing to support the clean Lakes committee particularly if you know right now we have what is it Amy 1.6 full-time equivalents if that was bumped up to two full-time equivalents um our response was that's an interesting idea there's a lot of nuance to think about there right like um there are different administrative sort of for clean Lakes committee maybe on the ground the science looks the same but it could be there are a couple different ways to to accomplish those goals my sense is the select board is a little unsure how to support clean Lakes Committee in those goals when there isn't professional staff dedicated to that Amy has anything come up at Town Hall in the intervening couple days on that front um no um but but I I will say the main line uh Tim did get appointed as conservation agent so that'll be basically effective February 28th or or whatever and the uh posting for the 25 hour assistant conservation agent job description H that has been posted um so there's that that timing issue um but no we we haven't heard anything from from Jenner Ryan or anybody about what if anything to do about this uh staff hour thing yeah I I would be very concerned because Tim is going to have to train the next person coming up and that's going to take a huge time commitment I mean I think we are a year away from even considering this and I think from a budget perspective we could be farther more than a year away right like we we did some back of the envelope math and just bringing the assistant agent to fulltime is probably a $25,000 ad to the budget and in a year when I don't think the select Bard or finance committee has a lot of leeway in their budget that that would be a big ask even if we were fully supportive so what I think is going to happen is we're GNA explore this and see what we actually need Amy and I had talked about Amy and Tim and I had talked about potentially asking for a little bit of money for outside support to sort of do an inventory of needs right like what where are all the needs what what would the job description essentially be of this person as it relates to clean laks and that's probably the most important place to to start and then we can figure out what the scoping is and the cost and so on take a while to get all that done or Amy I mean I think as of February 28 yeah okay you were much Bolder to actually say it it was in my head but I wasn't gonna say it nice try well that's all I got for for those two items and then Amy you want to do a quick update on agent and assistant agent and where we're at there I think you covered yeah so that was it so the posting um I think went to uh MMA which is what the mass Municipal Association um maybe Wednesday or Thursday Mac posted it I think it was Friday and Ms smcp will be posting it this week um so we'll just wait to see um I did have a discussion with someone in who is it Spencer and another town are going to be splitting someone they're they're doing some interviews um and uh he said they they actually had some very good resumés uh but that would have been for the full 40 hours um so I think he's willing to even send some of those over um so we'll we'll see if we can get get a live one there who's who would be happy with 25 hours okay the Clos what's the closing date on it until filled we left it open very good you looking to come out of retirement car no no no I'm I'm working eight hours for fish and wildlife and I'm very happy with that and because it's sure it's short I actually have an end date so that's good it's even better yeah but you're you're you're working it man you're doing pretty good no well I know if it's 25 hours I think if Carl filled it you could probably do it in 16 so there you go uh Amy I'm not I'm not so sure I don't remember remember approving your retirement on the she's got a certificate from the select board now I think we're stuck yeah yeah well plus as I said if if I'm still in front of you in March on a routinely basis you're going to be really sorry I can make these meetings deadly Okay I uh I missed our 7:45 time let's um let's pause the administrative discussion uh Dave if you could let Mr Mogan in that would be helpful and then we will open up the continued discussion the enforcement order of 15 Powers Road yes hey John can you hear us hey how's it going good good how you doing good um wanted to know if we get an update from about last meeting by the way I got called into work and it just completely slipped my mind I emailed Tim about it and talked at with either Tim or Amy the morning after no worries appreciate that we uh figured something came up and we could I thought about it the next morning I was like I know they thought the worst I know they thought the worst it's okay you're here now we can uh I spoke with Matt Maro he's in uh I believe it's Lancaster or lunenberg tonight so he couldn't attend uh he said he's more than likely would be able to attend the next meeting but hopefully we can get any of the checklist items checked off today okay Amy can you remind us what those checklist items were I'm trying furiously to bring it up and I'm losing here yeah there's there's sort of the two pieces is is one this is not going to work um all right I'll share my screen in a second uh one is coming up with both the existing conditions planned and um a restoration or or whatever plan um as well as the inventory of what is in the backyard there um and and how it's being moved out or addressed or left or just so we have an accounting of what's going on um which John did submit um in early Jan January uh before the meeting that that he was unable to attend so we had that um I was I did have a informal conversation with Matt marrow and he said the delineation that John had on that plan um is uh is good okay and and truth be told I thought that when you guys came out and walked the site after I had marked it on the last plan I thought we kind of had come to an agreement then but and to that point Amy to your recollection are you comfortable with this do you is it important for you to go take a look at it and confirm it or we we good with this line as presented well we were good with the flags in the field and then Matt confirmed that that the survey that that John did of those flags is appropriate um so I think that's where we wanted to be are you seeing my screen sharing it's just being weird to me we are seeing a portion of your screen top two3 maybe yeah all right I'm not sure again so when I came in I think it was early January I gave you guys an inventory list of what remained in the backyard um and kind of their purpose and whether they were staying or going um this the updated backyard survey with the Wetland flags and then kind of I guess you call it a rough restoration plan or future finish Vision um with like kind of brief description of what's where um and then I also came across a few pictures from and I included the time stamps on them one from 2019 one from 2020 and one from 2021 all of the driveway okay um prior I see these up on our website I was trying to figure out what they meant prior to any of the I guess filling if you will so I think that that might have given I I mean I knew what was there and what was done but I thought this might give you guys maybe a better idea of what was done on the driveway side um because these pictures kind of clearly show that it's more than a onecar wide driveway from the get um depending on the year picture you're looking at you there's easily two next to each other um especially with where that fence was it shows it's you know five or six feet past the road to dendron so there's no doubt that I did go a couple feet over but I think that maybe it seemed a little bit more egregious on day one and I just thought this might these might bring a little bit of clarity whether you guys find them relevant or not that's up to you I appreciate you submitting those John um those have walked the site Kyle I think you have in particular are those helpful to you can you tell me what you see in those your sort of interpretation yeah I mean I think it's pretty clear that that first photo 2019 a pre-existing condition um and it I guess it looks to me that the following year 2020 that it's already been it's already been filled is that true John so that the two the the second and third photo are after you've done work or no no I that those are all three of those are prior to any work being done and you could confirm that I looked for a picture of after like between now and then and I didn't really have any but I'm sure there's a record of when Powers Road was milled and repaved and that exact date is when I got the material brought there yeah I'm Chase I'm struggling in my head to to stand at the end of the driveway and look down it and and compare it to you'll say the the third photo of that file and okay to to really see what the difference is I guess the the first picture must versus the second picture must just be kind of a p perspective depth perception type thing because it doesn't look like there's enough room for two cars to park next to each other in the first photo but it does in the second photo yeah so like the first I guess the second photo the I think the car is probably a little bit closer to the fence yeah but I I assume that with a full plow being next to the vehicle you could come down and hook a truck up to that plow with that you know it's not spacious but there's it's a two too wide at the bottom okay so how does this impact what what we're going to put forward in terms of a restoration plan zero zero what does that mean the are you referencing just those three pictures yeah I'm trying to understand right like with thinking through the items that we have in front of us one was an existing conditions plan and then we'll have a restoration plan that that you and Matt are working on I think one of the things that is helpful is when we give you guidance on what what is good look like right what is where's the finish line and so I want to make sure the restoration plan that you come back with accounts for what we see in these photos so we can give you good direction does that generally make sense or not yeah I think I think I'm on the same page um essentially what I'm asking John is are we going to are we going to revegetate a portion of that driveway strip or not on the like on the right side on the right side where it was expanded yes okay yeah I mean I say yes but I I guess I mean if that's something you guys want I'd be happy to do that Commissioners thoughts on adding that or not adding that yeah I mean I think that would be ideal if we can revegetate areas that including the you know the slope too if we can find a way to I think that's a big part of it too is right to stabilize and and get vegetation absolutely on that slope okay um are we satisfied with we the commissioner are we satisfied with the existing conditions plan let me ask that a different way are we do we have any comments on the existing conditions plan that we should point out to John so that he can address them okay I'm going to take that to mean John we've got the existing conditions plan I think we're good to go with that now what we need to do is measure against that to come up with the restoration plan um well so I think that I guess so it's definitely not a quote unquote restoration plan but the second sheet the one that's I guess it's got less of like a topo and more of a kind of a brief description of right okay so this is an existing correct so this is where it says grass and and 12 berry bushes that that's kind of what you're proposing it's not yes so that that's I guess that's not an existing that's what I'm proposing so I hadn't really had a chance to sit down or get with Matt um before the meeting so I had this and I figured we could talk about it I could get your input get back with Matt and then kind of submit a like a more formal restoration plan I just I we've had kind of a rocky road here so I just wanted to get you guys something that I already had going even if it's just parial I appreciate that and to be honest I I didn't realize that there were two sheets in the PDF so I I forgot that until you said second sheet I completely forgot about it as well so so let me share it we can talk about it for a second and get any input but I do think um John that your intuition is right we're g to we can talk about about it then we can potentially kick this back to another meeting where we include Matt we get everybody on board and then we go from there can everybody see the restoration plan yes yeah thank you for some reason I just couldn't do it no worries can I just um kind of a little late to this but can we make sure that the uh on the driveway the inferior fill that been put in is going to be removed because that's where you're having the breakout yep and I can have like have that something like that added or if there's anything else you guys wanted to address in the more formal restoration plan uh with Matt marrow there's quite a bit that has to come out and we need to make sure that that's going to stay sa stable John what I I would like you to do and it to keep cost down I don't care who writes it but I I think we do want a narrative description of what you're going to do here as well and it can just be bulleted right like this doesn't need to be Shakespeare but one of those bullets should be that we're going to pull the driveway in um a couple of feet return it to the existing alignment and revegetate another bullet is going to be that we're going to remove the objection objectionable material in the slope um then I would also include in that uh sort of a narrative description of some of the things that we see here for example you know a dozen bury bushes um things like that so that we get that in in in both narrative and in plan form so easier to see and read yeah so uh I guess one of my questions towards the objectionable fill is is there a minimum size uh piece of objectionable fill that you're looking for removal on like some of the larg the larger chunks of concrete or like there was a a little pile of asphalt like that that stuff I understand but like um when I pull the driveway back a couple feet if I come across a brick or something it like is a brick considered objectionable Phil yeah I think we would consider for top soil I would understand that or what I would sayn is we want to remove um we want to remove any material that we that that essentially I mean my sense is that won't pass through a rake right so if there's busted up pieces of concrete and it just rakes like Stone rakes then right we're not picking up every Pebble here but a brick in my mind would be something that we do want to take out so no for like the top soil I I absolutely understand that but like if we talking a a foot down I guess like you know the stuff on the slope for the top soil or even the first six inches or so of course like rake rake smooth no large Boulders no rocks no chunks of concrete no bricks but below the surface yeah I get my two cents there is what you just said basically surficial everything on the surface exposed concrete blocks brick asphalt and then maybe down about six inches but I think personally I'd rather limit digging into that I'm more worried about it getting dressed up getting some top soil on it so stabilized um I guess that's kind of where I was going with that cuz in like that one particularly questionable spot on the back corner of the slope um where the big chunks of concrete and asphalt were if I got those removed and brought in I you know a couple yards of top soil and was able to you know rake out that slope and get is that is that kind of a yay or nay having obviously not right now but you know the spring yes but you would need someone there from the commission to verify that you've gone back far enough that's I was going to kind of lean towards as well Sarah was I think we'd want to kind of have eyes on it while you're doing it to to make sure we're not you know leaving just a a a mess of asphalt there right like I understand that not all the material is made up of asphalt and and concrete and that it could just be a couple things that have made their way to the surface but if um yeah absolutely as you're removing it all of a sudden we realize that it's just a majority of that that could impact the the Wetland even with you know even with top soil on it eventually that stuff could leech out and find its way into the the resource area so John one thing that you could put in your restoration plan is sort of a schedule right and so what we would Adit Envision here is one line is going to say you're going to remove what you think are all the objectionable materials then there's going to be a an inspection by by Tim or a conservation commissioner to concur with you following that one you know whoever does that will will send you an email saying Yep looks good go ahead and backfill and then after you get that sign off then you can um add top soil to that that that could strike a balance between you not having to take everything out that isn't going to matter but also I'll give us confidence that we're achieving the right ecological end points yeah does that make sense to you yeah that's that's fine with me because I was thinking for kind of everybody's benefit it would be like as opposed to you know getting the commission's approval and waiting two weeks I guess is going to be my question is it something because I'd like to if I'm going to be opening it up I'd like to close it up the same day more than or the same weekend within that yeah within a few days absolutely so if like Chase said if you can be pretty open and proactive about what your schedule's going to look like and say by Friday afternoon I will have cleaned up what I think is appropriate that we can schedule somebody to get out there right and that way you can roll it into your next work day and keep moving forward assuming we are all in agreement and John even if it's on the weekend I'm sure we can some commissioner can find an opportunity to get out there and sign off on it for you yes sir um one one other thing that I would like to see in your plan here is if we're going to be digging into that slope um we we're going to want some kind of erosion control at the base of that slope what we don't want to do is mobilize a whole bunch of sediment into the Wetland as a result of this yeah I think we had talked about that um in the last meeting about once we do start to do something set up I think we had said maybe 50 feet of Waddles but I'm open to what whatever you guys suggest I guess I don't really have a choice right yeah I don't think we need to go Overkill here but let's let's get it on the plan and and it can be a just take this plan in a red marker and draw it and tell us that that's where you propos to put erosion controls okay absolutely what other comments do Commissioners have on this understanding that maybe not everybody's looked at it because they too didn't see the second page I I'm gonna guess my generic comment or question when we start talking plantings and um I I'm seeing different you know call outs of of berry bushes or flowers um and it's like a couple pear trees but you know that's where I guess sorry to interrupt okay um that is a partial existing this past summer I planted two pear trees and you know a dozen just under a dozen flowers out front Okay I subsequently planted prior to the uh or maybe when I had the enforcement order but uh maybe two dozen or more flowers is out back which would be outside the 50 but inside the 100 which would be like if you're looking at that one to the back left corner of the house across the backside out it's just a flower bed yeah my question I guess is just how how specific are we looking for his list to be um I think um on the berry bushes I talked to Matt and it was right after I had submitted this um but I think we had said Wildberry and something else I talked I called and talked to Tim okay great I I can't remember offhand what they were if you guys have any suggestions I'm open to that um I would get them from Matt marrow yeah yeah if you've had that conversation with Matt that's that's great I think that's yeah so that's sufficient yeah he's he's he's definitely going to be an expert on this but we would like to see I think in your plan a little more specificity John with what exactly you propose it doesn't need to be um individually labeled but it might say we're going to plant 18 berry bushes we'd like to know it's six six blueberry and six this and six that ex okay and what size and what size thank you Amy gallon pots 3 feet you know something like that can I check with the commission on something um are so on the existing conditions plan are you okay is that the is that the pavement John that you have on there that's so like that I guess that is what I kept the same off of the Civil Solutions plan that I started with okay but like I was saying earlier and submitted the pictures from 2019 2020 21 that those clearly show the driveway prior to me doing anything being you know not significantly but significantly wider than what this plan shows so that's where like at first it seemed like I egregiously expanded the driveway 15 ft and it's really just a couple feet okay so the commission is okay with basically the driveway will be what it was going back to what it was I think yeah I'm okay with that Amy I think those photos are helpful and that we're we're GNA have to do rough Justice here right because we can't go out and measure it but it it looks like if we pull it back a few feet we're we're close in in which case um I'm guessing or assuming that you probably don't need a nose of intent for this it can all be done under the enforcement order if you wanted to expand the driveway that would be a different but if you's that's one of the that's the other thing I was just going to ask about because I I was able to get a copy of the abutters list and Tim sent me the noi which is I don't know pretty confusing but I'm going to do what I can on it and once I sit down with Matt he's going to help me fill in the blanks but I guess if you're saying that we're I almost don't need it then maybe it's worth not doing it I my two cents here John is and I want to be clear because I know you and I haven't always seen eye to eye here but I appreciate the progress you you made here and I think as long as we keep making diligent progress I I don't think the town's interests are Advanced anymore by having you go through the formal noi process was going to say that same thing Chase yeah that just G to that will just drag us on another meeting or two well he submits that and we review it and say come back with these Ed right but okay that's it would be something different if the driveway was being expanded right yeah okay thank you okay all right awesome that's great to know so John I've got on my list for things for oh I'm sorry go ahead on the plus side I now know who all my neighbors are so I've got on my list for updating this restoration plan and getting it to something that we could approve we need some more specificity on the plantings um what grass seeds what types of berry bushes we need it to show that the driveway is going to come in and we're going to revegetate that area we need some sort of written narrative that describes it and that's got to have a sequencing component that's going to include a commission member or the agent coming out to take a look at the slope after you've pulled the objectionable materials out um I thought I had one more but I don't see it on my list you does that all sound good is there anything I'm missing on your list John or Commissioners no I I think I'm good I think I'm good very good so John art we're going to see you in two weeks with Matt and toe so we can get this plan approved hopefully and then we can point you in the right direction of getting it done because I actually really like the idea of getting this approved mid-February gives you a chance to plan what you're going to do and then do it in early spring so we can get the vegetation growing yeah that's work yeah that would be that would be great and so another thing you were looking for was uh just add some erosion control on the plans thank you yes add erosion control on the that might have been the last thing yep okay yeah and if I have any questions I can just pop into the office but for sure either yeah that or just talk with Matt as you've heard I think we have a fairly High degree of confidence that that Matt can give you good guidance here on what the rights uh planting sorry you don't have a fairly High degree in my confidence I don't have confidence in my own ability say it's more on us that's why I usually look to Amy or Tim to say hey does this make sense because I don't things low enough all right well thanks guys appreciate it John thank Youk we'll see you in a couple weeks and I'm not uh co-host anymore so can someone invite uh Bruce ringwall in if he's paying attention remote to I tried it didn't work oh here we go there he comes okay sorry no worries so um there we go hey Bruce how you doing good evening all it's been a while how's everybody doing very good Bruce has been a while um Amy would you set the stage for us real quick and then Bruce we're going to get ask you to give us sort of high Lev update where you're all at at hey Corner uh okay real quickly um this was initially filed in August of 2019 um the last meeting we had was August of 2020 um at which point the uh the planning board permit got um appealed so it's been sitting in litigation um may or may not uh actually be resolved in a month or so um the original filing was for a 17 Lop subdivision with a wetland Crossing that led to the two of the houses in back infiltration Bas shared septic and what was on the table also was uh conservation restrictions uh two trails and three boardwalks um since then in August of 2024 um a seven lot anr was approved by the planning board um so they're there's two things sitting out there on the project um because of all the time that has passed uh you guys have lost your Quorum um and it's not even close right well three people can vote car just barely Clos okay so Bruce you want to give us an update with for where you and your clients are at and sort of what you what you think the trajectory of this is going to be here understanding that there might be some variables that we can't control like litigation certainly um Amy pretty much nailed it on in a nutshell uh I did speak with the aent this afternoon or this morning rather um the word that I've heard is that uh there is court with another there was a court case I guess a week and a half ago and and they're due back in prior to a month from then is what I was told so that'd be like probably after the 18th unfortunately but uh certainly hopefully before the 4th um I think that that court case is going to help give us uh the applicant some direction as well as us as to where we're going to at this point in time um Amy's correct there's more than one permit on the property right now um in uh in in perming world uh you can have that you can have a a standard subdivision an open space subdivision and an anr plan all on the same property or a site plan and a subdivision on the same property um where several of the lots have been sold uh it eliminates a number of the lots that were in the original subdivision design uh so it would a either reduce the scale of the subdivision or mean that maybe they're going to sell them off as Lots etc etc um so at this point in time um on behalf of the applicant I would request that we continue to the fourth uh we get some definition from the court as to whether this case is going to be agreed upon and settled dismissed go to litigation whatever the case is I think those are the three options um and then uh I can have conversation with the applicant um I've expressed to them the the concern where we obviously do not have a um a quorum to vote anymore um and what steps should be taken um we did not have a chance to speak with their Council today on that um and I apologize because Amy and I have been talking about trying to get back before you but I have not been able to um reach the applicant until just the other day so sure and and I I think one of the things I want to make sure we however this unfolds administratively that in my opinion there needs to be a ren noticing even if we did have Quorum it's been too long we've really sort of not not given the public an opportunity to weigh in and that's 100% in agreement um in my experience in the past when we've had uh um a project typically it's when a project rolls over uh a Springtown meeting and and board voting time or a commission assignment time whatever the case may be people get off whatever and I lose the Quorum it's always been a a renot ification to a Butters and in the paper and then bringing everybody back up to speed again however that may go um I'm guessing that there's going to be a modification in the design in some fashion I don't know exactly what um but you know 100% notification would be necessary if not a new filing or something along those lines but um more than happy to discuss it more with you looks like I finally have something to discuss believe me Amy and I have talked about this over the years and wanted to get to a point on it but uh you know I can only do what we can only do so you're looking for a continuation to the fourth that would be my request on behalf of the applicant please and and if I may I I spoke briefly with Town Council this morning you want to hear about that um nothing definitive came out of it um of course not well yeah because we're we're we're also not sure you know where the applicant was going to go with this and and how the commission felt about it so um uh and this was with with Tom Harrington um he recommended yes continu continuing it with a list of what the commission wants to see um and then if you want to go down this road and you do it by for March 4th if they're unable able or or whatever to come back on March 4th with those answers um at that point with the Quorum you do or don't have he would comfort with a a vote to either deny or at that point the applicant would hopefully withdraw before that um he was most concerned with any kind of vote under the bylaw um without like a a real quarum he said because the um the the resolutions on the weal and protection act is appeal to D and then Quorum doesn't matter anymore and and they sort of start over again um so th those were kind of the possibilities and you know we had some discussion about and it's really up to you guys how much you think the project May or not changed at the very least the property lines have changed it's a different project site um right now so um that was what was discussed so can you expand a little bit on asking the applicant to come back with a list of things I to I want to be perfectly honest I don't I have no idea what I don't know here and that you know I wasn't involved in the original but I'm going to guess even people who were involved are trying to put the pieces together well to to a degree that yeah to a degree that that's part of the problem with trying to keep this uh permit number opened um there was a lot of public comment um and trying to recreate all that under the existing you know 204 899 number um is is tough um unless you just start fresh with it um and that way all seven people hopefully everyone can show up um can vote on it so the the last meeting was August 2020 and I think the main ask at that point from the commission uh was that a um alternative analysis be done uh that would show uh what the project would look like with no work in the 50-foot NDA no disturb area um and I don't think any protracted discussions and really happened yet other than kind of design issues about the Wetland Crossing itself um so that was that was the last piece of lingering information and I assume with a new project with whatever new design there may be um as as Bruce had had reminded me with a seven lot anr um the storm waterer management requirements kick in after lot four um so at the very least even if some of these other Lots the two that sold are outside the buffer zone I think the other five are in the buffer zone or close to it um but they're going to need um presumably some sort of basin at the at least what I'm hearing here Amy is one option is for us to ask the applicant to do a bunch of things that they're probably not going to do to form a basis for a denial um Bruce I I I if that's actually what I'm understanding correctly I I think you might be wise to take to your client withdrawing the application might be a a thing that you want to consider here unless you're willing to sort of go through all of this Alternatives analysis approach understanding that we can't even actually go forward with the Quorum um understand you probably can't answer that question tonight um Commissioners what given all that where where do you all stand on this is it still a wetland Crossing as part of this plan we don't know though if you like I can share the last drawing we all had just for a quick refresher uh I think I can hang on a minute I have to remember I don't have multiple screens at home so I have to play around here all right so the last meeting I brought this plan or prior to the last meeting I brought this plan in at the request of the commission and this was the uh kind of modifications to the open space down here it was helping to try to get us out of litigation um there was a the Dennis Circle that came in and then Alpha Trail which was a private drive that came off had their crossing over the very narrow Wetland area here to two lots in the back we had a walking path and when we were talk showing some Boardwalk action here and here and here and that was an area to come into the back um you know this one of the things if we were to go down this road this lot would probably be trimmed more like this for these two Lots now and this would all be looking at open space for the Town versus what it was set up for before as well as this and this for the town um but you know those were things that we were discussing literally four years ago and I don't know where everybody's at on that at this point in time so everybody being the applicant my client uh so uh I agree jaas uh I'm going to need to you know here here learn what they learn out of the Court figure out if they have a a plan um address what that is I understand the concerns um moving forward under the existing filing and have some conversation with them to those ends and uh be back to see you on the 4th with with uh answers hopefully and and hopefully something and whether it's a withdrawal or a requests to modify or whatever the case maybe we'll have a better handle then um I I would just want one one thing real quick I I'd also point out to your client Bruce that if the commission does proceed not jury rigging quum but whatever that's that could be low hanging flute for fruit for an appeal interesting I I heard that and I I'll pass it one um I I do think we as a commission need to decide before you go Bruce whether or not we are going to request that you begin to prepare these alternative analyses that we had initially discussed four years ago um commission members thought on asking essentially we have a choice we can either just continue it to the fourth understand what the administrative sort of evolution of this is um or we can formally request these pieces of information now in anticipation of the meeting of the 4th and whatever new information you want to see yeah I I believe we did submit an Alternatives analysis uh I think in July and then modified it again in August if memory serves me correct ly but I saw I saw things that said alternative analysis in the file today I didn't dig into them because I didn't think I was going down that road tonight I do recall having those discussions Chase and it there being something I I definitely don't remember what I looked at or what we saw but there has been something in the past okay I I mean I I will tell you my two senses I I appreciate Town council's opinion um I'd rather give Bruce a chance to talk his client into just withdrawing this and we can start over yeah I I I think Bruce that is going to be cleaner for everybody involved and if you can convince your client to do that we will be appreciative and they'll come out probably better in the long run absolutely um but I don't want to dictate that right if if everyone else here thinks that we should proceed with certain requests then we should make them anyone in favor of formalizing those requests I second your opinion Chase okay anybody opposed to not a formal vote right but any opposed to just continuing it to the fourth and then we can discuss from there okay there you go Bruce you continue to the fourth keep us updated okay and it's not my problem anymore oh I can't believe you get out of this one oh come on Amy I'll be reaching out to you everywhere yeah you can come you come still sit in and listen and you got to be curious about how this one goes Amy's always CU later all right well I'm going to sit tight um because I'm actually your next agenda item so oh that's right 15 Queen okay 35 or 35 I'm all mixed up here 15 Powers um Amy anything to brief us on before we hand it over to Bruce to update us on that one I think Bruce can update you on that one there you go sir so um unfortunately and I'm sure you've all heard by now but uh my good friend and uh and and colleague uh Nick Pauling passed away in August and Nick was working with uh Mr uh cadir um relative to the 35 Queens property um he was actually in testing we were talking about it the week before he passed unfortunately um I have sort of brought myself up to speed on the project um I have uh reviewed the documents I've I've had independent conversations with the contractor uh and then independent conversations just today with um the uh the applicant the owner of the property um he truly wishes to um be able to discuss the options that I put before him uh with the contractor the contractor is on vacation right now it's due back last part of this week if memory serves me right um so uh we can do if ite pleases the commission um continue to your 18th meeting or continue to the fourth and I'll come and do both of them at the same time um that'd be my preference but I can go either way um and on that uh you know I you know there's the idea whereby we um try to figure out how to design a septic system uh there or we work towards the Avenue of like a tight tank there and um see which way uh has the least impact um um both are loaded with landmines 100% 100% the whole site's loaded with a landmine um so uh you know that's that's where that sits um I told them you know that uh the commission had asked to have be uh rep the project be represented this evening and that I would uh be here provided I got out of my other hearing fast enough which I did and um give you folks this update so uh to that end they anticipate getting together as I say um probably next week and I hope to join them in that conversation and um have some idea of how to move forward uh if we did continue to the 18th that discussion would be um just telling you which way we're going to go one versus the other uh if we continue to the fourth I might even be able able to have some documentation to you a week or two beforehand so that we could actually have a conversation and your preference on behalf of your client would be to the fourth my preference on behalf the client would be to the fourth I mean it sounds to me like we're going to the fourth regardless of like I just either way we're gonna have to go out in distance somewhere it doesn't seem to make sense for you to come in on the 18th just to say we've decided to try a tight tank I I I don't know if we get any value out of putting you on the agenda for that no it's good to see you again a while I agree any opposition to pushing Bruce and his client to the fourth nope okay there you go Bruce all right I uh thank you all very much for your time this evening Amy I appreciate uh working with you here and I'll see you in acting and D in acting have a good night Andrew I miss you man I know Bruce I don't see you in Harvard anymore well that's cuz you're not there I'm then all the time you get to come by Litton I will I will all right have a good night folks good night Bruce okay so we got a couple other little things I think to square up and then we can wrap up for tonight lost our agenda I know one was shade tree uh the tree removal and Doc filing checklists um I don't know if anybody has comments on that um but these are are things that that Tim mostly pulled together um if we want to try to standardize what's applied um I think the doc filing checklist is rela straightforward the tree removal may we not want to wait until we get a little further with bylaws and policies and stuff to see what's in there and Sarah did comment earlier that um it might be worth actually having arus report as as a box that they can check off having what I'm sorry having the arborist report just an actual check off rather than just mention of it sure I like that so I don't know if you wanted to discuss those tonight or or just kind of take those down I mean I think we've got folks here if if there are substant discussions that we can resolve things in I think we should Amy but if we're just going to talk about it and then we're going to have the same conversation two weeks from now but let's save ourselves the time and of course my problem being I can't seem to screen share them but let see if I can get them do you have them up online I'm not sure I have the latest and greatest of either of those no I I actually emailed them to myself so I could pick them up but I I can't that's come I bounced out last time it it finally gave up on me sounds like it is answering the question for us here kick him down the road for two weeks idiot technology that's me yeah everybody okay with that idea yeah we'll be using those as a guideline if someone comes in anyway you know maybe not a formal checklist but it it it covers the stuff we be asking him for True right I'm I've worked off of a lot of government guidance documents that are 20 years old that nobody ever got around to finalize yeah so a couple the three other things I had should I just do those go for um LCT uh is interested in doing an owl prowl um so that would be an after hours use of conservation land would you want to see a land use permit for that or just yeah okay maybe just well Chase why I guess why do you shake your head no when we require one for like Boy Scouts camping on our I would I would say yes because it's after hours after hours and it's on our properties it's not a normal activity okay I mean are they just going down the trail to be overruled yeah I guess I envisioned it as being they're just walking down the trails at night I still think some paperwork Place give them a reason yeah if somebody calls the cops and say hey there's people out in the woods then they can have that back up I'm not sure have a date or location yet so I'll I'll check back with them and see what's going on um just uh Happy heads up uh rumor has it um through the Ms smcp and a reminder that uh the current legislation that that let all this Zoom meeting stuff happen expires allegedly March 31st um Tom Harrington said he couldn't remember the exact date but that's his recollection there is um legislation uh there is stuff in front of the legislature now to make that a permanent thing for to allow zoom and hybrid all the rest of the stuff so I'm guessing they're not might not have that squared away by March 31st so there's a chance you may be forced into inperson meetings um in April but stay tuned and the last one is uh Matt Maro said he could come in on the 18th um he says he also has to has a meeting over in Stow so if possible he'd like to get a 7:30 slot so start with 15 powers and then do the administrative stuff later as that seem appropriate to you guys yeah and well now that was it that's it for me okay I ask a question because we're talking about the 18th it's school vacation week do we know we're going to have Quorum I know a couple will be away yeah I will be away but with the intent of logging on we'll be skiing so I should be should be back and settled by by that point and I being here I'll be here I'll be here too very good so seems like we'll have Quorum even if Sarah and Ed are unavailable so um and I will also say because this has also been coming up in Acton um and I don't think it's very necessary pertinent tonight is that theoretically when we're on Zoom means you're supposed to have your cameras on so hate to be a nudge and nobody was really caring too much but um if you're eating dinner and driving with kids in the car we still need to see it well be it oh okay I know can't if this is Chase I don't know if anybody cares to or wants to meet with me and or Tim before I kind of leave to just discuss things in general how things operate any suggestions anything like that um but you know let us know um do you want something done with the agenda something done with a meeting packet it's a good time to to get new habits if you're interested I think my primary concern is maintaining the old habits I was just gon say what's wrong with Tim taking on your habits and to be clear Amy your final day is the 27th yes okay Thursday the 27th yeah it's com quickly yeah no kidding well I'm I'm out for various reasons so I actually counted I think I've only got like seven full work days left got I got so much other crap going on so but who's counting I'm giving Tim all my little pieces of scratch paper that are really important to say this is the list of all the appraisers that we use this is really important you keep this so he's getting a lot of scrap paper from me good turns out that those little pieces of scrap paper and sticky notes and all that stuff are U maybe more valuable than some of the formal stuff very important I pick up my keyboard I was like oh Tim Needs all this stuff yeah yeah but the most valuable stuff is the stuff that's in between your ears and next like June you're G to get a phone call like I know you know this answer it would take me half a day to resolve it could you just tell me how we did dot dot dot yeah absolutely and and there there is money in the budget for that good both for this fiscal year and next fiscal year and how that actually works out I have no idea but yeah I will'll certainly resolve that and I think to the extent that you're willing we will Avail ourselves of it we'll Avail ourselves of it in either case I would prefer it be you but if we have to hire someone else we can I also know how to not answer a phone so don't worry about trying to bug me Roger that or I will learn how not to answer it's that private Consulting habit that that that kills me so yeah yeah phone rings gotta answer it go go go yeah okay very good well I think we've covered everything for tonight get a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second all right roll call vote Carl carberg I Michael Livingston I Sarah Eric Seward I Kyle Kyle Maxfield I chase Chas gby gu and myself I it's unanimous we're Jour good night everyone have a good night